New 2-hour Abilities

[Pebe]

Hey Camate could you please ask the devs to expand on the SCH new 2hr. As I'm reading now, it pretty much is an AoE enmity Douse. I mean it is a good ability and all but...DDs cap hate extremely fast. So all the hate from this ability will be given to the tank...who is already capped hate... so his hate won't change, just everyone else will be lowered.

Suggestions to make SCH new 2hr better:
Suggestion 1: Directs all enmity from party members to target AND prevents party member actions from increasing hate for 30 seconds.

Suggestion 2: Directs all enmity from party members to target AND all generated enmity by the party for the next 30 seconds will be given to the target.

With this 2hr, it seemed that you were trying to revive your idea of sch being able to help control the hate flow if the battle.(animus spells and libra) That was an interesting concept, but if you are going to go that route again please don't do it half-heartedly like the animus spells. Please make more potent the animus spells(IE decay of CE and VE) and give sch more hate controlling abilities. The sch forums are filled with tons of ideas regarding this.

Edit 2; Just thought of a cool idea to make this be used strategically

-Give PLD an ability that increases the hate cap on a monster for everyone in attacking said monster by the amount of hate the PLD can generate in 30 seconds.
How this would work:
-Everyone has capped hate and hate is bouncing around.
-PLD pops new ability, everyone stays at orginally cap hate, PLD increases his hate to a new cap.
-PLD is capped at new cap, ability wears off, everyone else builds from old cap to new cap based on how much hate the pld was able to build in the 30 second window.

this would work well with sch new 2hr, because if used with this pld ability, pld hate cap will increase five fold, giving lots of leeway. Thus having everyone initially at capped hate has strategic value.

I know it seems overpowered, but if you are really going with the sch = hate control route again... SCH + PLD combo should = PLD never looses hate if played right(unless he dies)...as it should be. This should also be the case with PLD and THF, but I don't know enough about thf to go into further details. Perhaps the combo for never loosing hate should be PLD SCH THF, thf needs more strategic purpose.

[Camate]

Hello!



Please + this post if you aggree.

Although the New Bst SP 2 ability is a really great ability, There is a small change which would be very good.

Currently, the special ability does NOT reset Call Beast Recast timer.
What it does is prevent the recast timers from activating at all.
This is just right for spamming the moves AFTER you use the special ability, but there is a scenario which will cause this special ability to be largely wasted.

I use Call Beast and right away use the special ability. I will still be able to use many ready moves, but I will NOT be able to change to another Called Beast. The call beast timer is Down, and it will not be back until long after the special ability has expired.


It would be best if using the SP2 for bst also reset the timers when you use it.

This is actually just a bug and it will be corrected so that the timer is reset. :D

While I am here, I would also like to pass on some other information regarding the new special abilities:


Paladin
Depending on the type of shield there will be different damage bonuses, and Aegis has been set to deal the most damage. While the damage comparison may be a bit different, it’d be easier understand this by thinking that it is similar to Shield Bash. However, this special ability is treated differently than Shield Bash, so bonuses granted from any Shield Bash enhancements will not be factored in.


Thief
A Japanese player who was testing out thief’s new special ability reported that they were unable to steal Meikyo Shisui and was curious if this was a bug or not.

Due to the fact that the Meikyo Shisui used by enemies is processed in a special way, it is not possible to steal this special ability. The reason for this is that when a monster uses Meikyo Shisui there is no enhancement status, it is only processed as the monster can do X amount of weapon skills after it is executed. Astral Flow also falls into the same category as this, and neither of these abilities can be stolen off of monsters.

[Mirage]

Would it be possible to add a special function to the new THF SP that would make it gain Meikyo Shisui when used on a SAM mob shortly after the mob 2houred? I realize this isn't the same as stealing the ability, but more like copying it.

Naturally, I absolutely do want the THF ability to steal 2hours, but I was thinking that in the case where stealing the 2h is impossible, the thf could instead copy it, as a special feature of the new SP. Perhaps it could also work for some of the instant activation 2hours. If you used the SP steal feature within 5 seconds of an enemy using Benediction, the THF would instantly perform benediction as well.

That aside, I also have another question. In the case that the THF uses this ability on an enemy that does not have any SP abilities active, would it be possible to make it so that the THF steals more than just a single buff? I know I've asked this before, but I don't think there has been an answer to that. Considering 2hours are very powerful compared to a lot of other buffs, I think it would be fair to be able to steal several other buffs whenever no SP buff was active.

Naturally, there should be a limit to how many buffs you'd be able to steal. What about making the THF steal buffs with decreasing accuracy for each stolen buff when there is no 2hour to steal? The first steal attempt would be 100% success rate, the next would be 90%, then 80, 70, 60% etc. Whenever it failed, it would stop attempting to steal additional buffs.

Or you could just make it simpler and have the THF steal half of the enemy's active buffs in the case of no 2hour to steal, rounding up.

[FrankReynolds]

Thief
A Japanese player who was testing out thief’s new special ability reported that they were unable to steal Meikyo Shisui and was curious if this was a bug or not.

Due to the fact that the Meikyo Shisui used by enemies is processed in a special way, it is not possible to steal this special ability. The reason for this is that when a monster uses Meikyo Shisui there is no enhancement status, it is only processed as the monster can do X amount of weapon skills after it is executed. Astral Flow also falls into the same category as this, and neither of these abilities can be stolen off of monsters.
[/list]

LOL This ability has crap written all over it.

[noirin]

I'm sadly starting to agree here. Astral Flow seemed like one of the BIG 2hr's you'd bring a THF to steal, just in case things are taking a turn for the worst.

Meikyo, at least for me, isn't that big of an issue compared to it.

[Hashmalum]

Yeah, between the fact that the new THF SP2 can't steal other SP2s, can't steal instant SP1s, and now we find out that it can't steal Astral Flow and Meikyo Shisui, that's really not leaving much. Even of the SP1s that can be stolen, Invincible and Perfect Dodge can be waited out and won't kill you anyway. The ability really seems to need a little extra something at this point.

Oh yeah, and RDM still sucks.

[Return1]

Meikyo would be pretty subpar on THF and AF is pretty easily avoided as is. Not that big a deal.

[Zirael]

THF SP2 ability has had potential for some situational tactical uses, but at this point, between it being able to not steal anything and still activate recast timer, no control of what 'normal' buff you steal and not working on almost HALF of SP1 abilities in the game (Benediction, Mijn Gakure, Meikyo, Eagle Eye and so on) it looks not very thought out from developer side. You'll need to sit down and have an honest look at it.

Also, Red Mage still useless.

[Helel]

I don't normally say this, but you've got to cut the devs some slack on the Meikyo Shisui one. If you think about how mobs perform tp moves it would be very difficult to program the Meikyo Shisui as an actual "buff." It would seemingly require a complete recoding of mob's tp mechanisms because they don't "normally" use their tp moves as soon as they have 100 tp, unless their hp is below 25%. You'd have to create a check of some sort, if mob has Meikyo Shisui then use tp move if tp is over 100. However, I'm sure with SE's programming, this would require a reprogramming of every mob that uses Meikyo Shisui.

I'm sure Astral Flow works similarly, the mob doesn't actually gain a buff, the avatar is just programmed to use its respective 2-hour whenever the dust cloud goes off for X minutes.

That said, it would be nice if the THF SP2 inflicted the mob with an amnesia of some sort so the proceeding effects of the mob's SP1 fail. It's not like a THF would actually have any use for astral flow, but the ability to prevent a mob from using it would be very valuable.

[Zirael]

I don't normally say this, but you've got to cut the devs some slack on the Meikyo Shisui one. If you think about how mobs perform tp moves it would be very difficult to program the Meikyo Shisui as an actual "buff." It would seemingly require a complete recoding of mob's tp mechanisms because they don't "normally" use their tp moves as soon as they have 100 tp, unless their hp is below 25%. You'd have to create a check of some sort, if mob has Meikyo Shisui then use tp move if tp is over 100. However, I'm sure with SE's programming, this would require a reprogramming of every mob that uses Meikyo Shisui.

I'm sure Astral Flow works similarly, the mob doesn't actually gain a buff, the avatar is just programmed to use its respective 2-hour whenever the dust cloud goes off for X minutes.

That said, it would be nice if the THF SP2 inflicted the mob with an amnesia of some sort so the proceeding effects of the mob's SP1 fail. It's not like a THF would actually have any use for astral flow, but the ability to prevent a mob from using it would be very valuable.
Oh, don't get me wrong, stealing Astral Flow wasn't really ever my dream, just saying there is too much [FAIL] written on what Developers are intending to implement. Could add amnesia, as suggested, could disable monster's 2-hour before it activating (think Pawn's Penumbra from Provenance crutaes) or something else, so that when you use this new ability it doesn't heel like a waste of space half of the time. "Half of the time it works every time", haha

[Hashmalum]

I don't normally say this, but you've got to cut the devs some slack on the Meikyo Shisui one. If you think about how mobs perform tp moves it would be very difficult to program the Meikyo Shisui as an actual "buff." It would seemingly require a complete recoding of mob's tp mechanisms because they don't "normally" use their tp moves as soon as they have 100 tp, unless their hp is below 25%. You'd have to create a check of some sort, if mob has Meikyo Shisui then use tp move if tp is over 100. However, I'm sure with SE's programming, this would require a reprogramming of every mob that uses Meikyo Shisui.Yes, but they knew all this when they decided on the effect for the THF SP2, and they went ahead with it anyway. And it's not as if they were slacking on WAR or something that's a very strong job already, THF is at the bottom of the barrel and needs all the help it can get.

[Nebo]

Yeah, I'm thinking this would have to be a "Steal all Buffs" including certain SP moves that give some sort of enhancement status.

To just steal one enhancement efffect is pretty underwhelming. Especially since aurasteal can take two (and other REGULAR spells and abilities for BLU and DRK etc).

As the list of SP abilities this ability CAN'T steal seems to get longer as the days go by....come on, devs. Give us something worthwhile here.

[Nebo]

Yes, but they knew all this when they decided on the effect for the THF SP2, and they went ahead with it anyway. And it's not as if they were slacking on WAR or something that's a very strong job already, THF is at the bottom of the barrel and needs all the help it can get.

And then they decided that even though most SP1 abilities can't be stolen, that SP2 abilities would also be excluded from this.

Do they really just sit around and have "lol @ THF meetings" when they think up this garbage?

[Retarded monkey in charge of THF updates]: "We'll give them Aurasteal -1 ...BUT...once every seven years they can steal mighty strikes from some NM in Legion!"

[Everyone in meeting] "YES! GENIUS! BRAVO!"

[Guy in the back]: "This SP2 is too powerful for lolTHF. Make sure it steals less buffs than Aurasteal currently... and make sure it doesn't work on most SP1 abilites. ESPECIALLY SAM's 2 SP1. God have mercy on your pathetic souls if it works on SAM's SP1! Also, give it a bug or something that prevents it form working with a full inventory and never get around to fixing it."

[Calatilla]

SE pretty much confirmed THF`s SP2 is as crap as I originally thought. Most of the 2hr`s can't be stolen since they're instant anyway, only DD one really is MS, the rest are just time savers, like invincible, perfect dodge etc. May as well have just given us mighty strikes as an SP2 at this point.

[Merton9999]

LOL no surprise here. As a SCH I'm definitely no stranger to "Here's a cool ability . . . except we're specifically excluding half of what it should work with."

THFs will be lucky to be able to steal Manafont by the time this is implemented.

[SpankWustler]

The inability to steal Meikyo Shisui isn't intentional and I half-expected it, but still, this development makes things look more and more bleak for the Thief SP. It's still possible to steal Paramount Gallu's Mighty Strikes so it's not like the most profound use for this new SP has changed, but the other situations it can be used in are ever-shrinking.

Would simply making it "Steal all buffs!"; or at least "Steal one buff and dispel all other buffs."; or "Steal one buff and inflict Amnesia briefly."; or "Dispel any and all SP's that have a buff effect on monsters, even if they can not be stolen, such as the new SP's." really hurt the Development Bros that badly in their tender Development-Parts?

[Calatilla]

Due to the fact that the Meikyo Shisui used by enemies is processed in a special way, it is not possible to steal this special ability.


Makes it sound intentional. Either way, they knew this before implementation and they still went with it.

[Xilk]

Hello!



This is actually just a bug and it will be corrected so that the timer is reset. :D

While I am here, I would also like to pass on some other information regarding the new special abilities:



Hey Camate, I and many other bst are glad to hear it. Also, thanx for pretending this was a reply to me :D. I read the Japanese posts several hours before the translation was ready. There was also a nice polite reply to Zaraki's request to even out the recast a bit for the bst sp2. The reply was politely saying "We don't want animations to overlap each other cuz it would look funny." Which is a really silly reply. Some ready moves are great and you can recast the ready move every 4~5 seconds, but others, like Wild carrot have a full 10 second delay in how long it takes.

I really don't think it would be a problem if the animations overlapped. Most players are swapping so much gear that WS animations are hugely delayed anyway. Especially when you do another JA right after the animation. Also, any /dnc has samba/waltz/jib/step overlap each other all the time.

[Return1]

People are really gonna complain about fukkin Meikyo? Really Bro?

[Nebo]

People are really gonna complain about fukkin Meikyo? Really Bro?

If it was just Meikyo, probably not. But its just another thing to add to the list.

Doesn't work on SP2.

Doesn't work on most SP1.

Only steals one Enhancement effect when Aurasteal already steals 2.

Hearing more negatives isn't helping...and knowing SE, we haven't heard the last of them yet.

[Return1]

You already knew it wasn't gonna steal /ees/etc unless you were retarded.

Stealing Astral does nothing for you and is pretty fail defensively. You can either sleep an avatar or the avatar was instant summoned putting it in the aforementioned group.

Meikyo is a waste of the ability. Sorry but 3, likely unstacked, WSes on THF is a waste of a two hour. Meikyo is also a pretty lame mob two-hour for the most part.

Lets be serious here. The best offensive use of this ability is stealing Mighty Strikes/Hundred Fists, and the best defensive uses were stealing Manafont/Chainspell. This is how it was before, and this is how it is still.

[Pebe]

idk it still seems pretty good to me.

Can steal:
Mighty Strikes (this is huge)
Hundred Fists
Manafont(this usually causes the mob to continually cast so this could also be big)
Chainspell(same as above)
Perfect Dodge
Invincible
Soul Eater
Soul Voice
Azure Lore
Tabula Rasa
Trance

What can't be stolen:
Benediction (this one sucks)
Familiar (not really a big deal, not many beastmaster monsters in the game that actually even use this to worry about. usually the pet can be slept)
Eagle Eye Shot (this one can be painful, but easily avoidable if prepared)
Meikyo Sishui - its a shame this can't be stolen, but the only devastating mobs that come to mind that use this is the mantis in legion, AV, and ADL. The most dangerous of the 3 is probably adl because all the mantis tps moves can be stunned, and if you are doing AV non-zerg method your pld should be able to withstand 3 of his tp moves.
Call Wyvern - ... no one cars about this one XD
Mijin Gakure - this one is devastating
Astral Flow - for 99% of mobs that use this their are easy ways around this. (enfeebling the pet). The only things this effects are the few monster of insta-summon the avatars when this move goes off.
Wild Card + Overdrive - are their even anything that uses these besides the genkai fights?

So being able to disable Manafont, Chainspell, Mighty Strikes, Hundred fists and Blood Weapon is massive, as the majority of mobs that uses 2hrs use these 2hrs. There are not to many Ninja and RNG endgame NMs. The only ones that come to mind are Gulool Ja Ja and Medusa and I guess AV but he is everything. The other main 2hr most NMs get is meikyo Shisui and its a shame we can't disable it with thf's new 2hr but being able to disable 5 or the 6 main 2hrs that most NMs use is massive. The NM's suck too with their insta summon but they are few and far between.

[SpankWustler]

Given how the Development Bros roll, I'm willing to bet a stolen Mikey's Shih Tzu would just inflict the inability to gain TP without the 300 that activating the ability triggers. So not being able to steal Mikey's Shih Tzu, specifically, is probably something to be happy about.

Still, this new SP is pretty situational in the first place, though it is epic in some situations; I don't blame people for taking an occasion to complain over something minor.

[Mefuki]

I thought were we happy with these 3 Sps. Granted, it's situational but as long as it has a situation where it's useful, it has it's place. As a career BLU, I know a lot about being given things that don't even have one situational use. (How I wish I could convince the devs to adjust those spells..)

And, really, isn't/wasn't that really the problem we have/had with the RDM SP2 and the BST SP2 respectively? There's no place for them in the game as it stands so it's functionally useless. And that, I think, is what bothers people the most. What's the point of adding and spending dev time/testing on something so worthless? Something that no one will use outside of wanting to see the animation?

I think we have to remember that these abilities are going to have their timers cut in half and then meritable down to 30 minutes. My perdiction is that the SPs, both 1 and 2, are going to become a greater part of everyday playing as opposed to the "too good to use/save it for later" category of skills. (I realize that most of the SPs are already not seen that way but I find that people just tend to ignore them entirely and people will certainly feel encouraged to burn their SPs with lowered timers.) Therefore, I think that desiring all the SPs to be game breaking, given their new timers, might be a little skewed.

Maybe we're thinking with a "2 hour" mind set, so to speak, as opposed to the SPs becoming part of our repertoire with our other job abilities. Not all of our job abilities are useful all the time and that's fine. So long as they serve at least one function, as long as there's a situation where you'd say to yourself, "You know what'd be good here...?" then that's sufficient.

(That said, I understand THFs wanting something really special given that they're constantly told, essentially, "You have TH so NO.")

[Arcon]

I'm sadly starting to agree here. Astral Flow seemed like one of the BIG 2hr's you'd bring a THF to steal, just in case things are taking a turn for the worst.

Astral Flow was never going to be stolen, because it's instant in all cases. I am a bit surprised about Meikyo Shusui though, I always assumed it was an actual buff and worked like the player version. I guess SAM is a bit special, and not for the first time either, if you look at Meditate. Kind of a bummer, but I'll live. I still love it.

[Calatilla]

You already knew it wasn't gonna steal /ees/etc unless you were retarded.

Stealing Astral does nothing for you and is pretty fail defensively. You can either sleep an avatar or the avatar was instant summoned putting it in the aforementioned group.

Meikyo is a waste of the ability. Sorry but 3, likely unstacked, WSes on THF is a waste of a two hour. Meikyo is also a pretty lame mob two-hour for the most part.

Lets be serious here. The best offensive use of this ability is stealing Mighty Strikes/Hundred Fists, and the best defensive uses were stealing Manafont/Chainspell. This is how it was before, and this is how it is still.

I never liked the SP to begin with, and that was before they confirmed it was worse than originally thought. Mighty strikes is nice yea but they could have just given us 100% triple attack for 30seconds. Hundred Fists isnt all that good anyway, a properly buffed THF (yea i know, wtf is that) can hit just as fast anyway.

Manafont isn't even dangerous, it doesn't send the mob into a crazed spell cast frenzie, that's what chainspell is, but if you're in Legion wouldn't you have sch/blm`s to stun lock it down anyway?

SE refuse to improve on THF by stating everything is overpowered because it has the ultimate job trait, Treasure Hunter. I just wanted something that benefited the THF, and I don't see how this does that.

Since this ability is useless on all but 4 2hr abilities, they should put 30 seconds of Amnesia added effect onto it. But I guess that will be too over powered as well.

[ManaKing]

If it's an instant SP, THF should just put that ability on cooldown. It's not rocket science. Make the ability not crap so people can use it without looking at what other people have and crying.

What if the mob has access to multiple SPs? OMG! so difficult! Either flip a coin or give the ability a priority list. I personally opt for flip a coin.

If someone wants to argue that this improvement would make it too good or unbalanced, then make the cool down for the stolen ability 5 minutes. Still not convinced? You probably don't play THF or this game for that matter.

ALSO....
RDM STILL SUCKS. WE HAVEN'T FORGOTTEN. FIX IT BY GIVING US THE FIRST SP ABILITY BUT WITH THE IMPROVEMENTS WE ASKED FOR AND ADD THE ENFEEBLING ONE ON TO SABOTEUR.

[Arcon]

If it's an instant SP, THF should just put that ability on cooldown. It's not rocket science.

I have no idea what you mean by that. Using it preemptively to prevent a mob from using their SP ability?


What if the mob has access to multiple SPs? OMG! so difficult! Either flip a coin or give the ability a priority list. I personally opt for flip a coin.

I have even less of an idea what you mean by this. Flip a coin for what? Are you suggesting to change the entire ability from stealing an SP ability to preventing one? I wouldn't mind that either, but it would result in an entirely different ability. I have no idea how you got to this from where we are now.

[Pebe]

When I said manafont makes the mob casts more i meant that when manafont is activated I think a lower spell recast timer is given to mob so they cast more often. Although I haven't paid much attention lately so idk, but I think this is how it works.

[Mirage]

Spells have individual recast timers, but mob combat scripts also have an "x spells per y time" thing in them, which usually leads to something like 30 second pause at least between spell casts. During manafont, this is lowered to a lot less, possibly removed entirely, but the mob still can't cast the same spell back to back.

[hiko]

I have even less of an idea what you mean by this. Flip a coin for what?

AV using 3 SP at once?

[Demon6324236]

Not a bad point really, if a mob uses more than 1 SP, what happens? Say for instance something uses Manafont, Chainspell, and Mighty Strikes all at once, what is taken? Are they all taken somehow, or is it only the last one used, or is it still random, just it will definitely be a SP ability?

[Arcon]

AV using 3 SP at once?

If that's what he meant, why make such a big deal out of it? I'm pretty sure that's already how it works. He seemed to get upset about something and I can't figure out about what, or with whom, or why.

Also, is there any mob other than AV that does it? And I only know about AV using 2 at once, although I haven't fought it since Lv.80, so I could be wrong.

[FrankReynolds]

Stealing mighty strikes, hundred fists, etc. is only a huge deal if your group is unprepared for the event. WHat event are people doing right now where they don't have things like PD and CS to block those sort of moves? Is anyone really thinking that your group is going to replace a support job with a thief?

[tyrantsyn]

Does it really matter if you can use the ability or not? I mean I can understand the Astral flow thing very well. THF shouldn't be able to start raining avatar death down on a mob. But at least the ability would stop the mob from doing the same. Even if the effect is wasted on the thf who's unable to take advantage of it.

[Arcon]

Is anyone really thinking that your group is going to replace a support job with a thief?

No, but they may use the TH whore that's already on the spot and replace the SMN with something otherwise useful.


[..] But at least the ability would stop the mob from doing the same. Even if the effect is wasted on the thf who's unable to take advantage of it.

But how is that supposed to work? The ability is instant. Aside from using the SP ability preemptively I don't see how it can be solved any other way.

[Vinedrai]

But how is that supposed to work? The ability is instant. Aside from using the SP ability preemptively I don't see how it can be solved any other way.

eg: you use SP2 on a nin NM before it mijin gakure and put an enfeeble which prevents the use of mijin gakure for a short period of time.

this additional mechanic can also made to work with stealable SPs too. the thf could use it and prevent a stealable SP before it goes off instead of stealing it. for zergs fights, it could even be better than stealing it after the SP actually goes off.

[Kysaiana]

As others have suggested, it would be better if THF SP "stole" the mobs SP before it actually uses it and let you select it from job ability menu. This would probably be difficult to code however. On a semi-related note, I think I read somewhere that people were wondering if Perfect Dodge could be stolen since I think normal steal always fails during or something. Anyway I can confirm you can, in fact, steal it with the new SP. So yay for that I guess.

Is there any word from the Dev's if PLD SP is working as intended on the test server? Cause if so, it's going in the useless pile with RDM and maybe BLU depending on what unbridled learning spells are added in the future.

[Khajit]

But how is that supposed to work? The ability is instant. Aside from using the SP ability preemptively I don't see how it can be solved any other way.

Well PW from what i recall uses astral flow then the avatars hunt everyone down to spam bloodpacts so in that case stealing Astral flow would be extremely beneficial. I could just be remembering an inaccurate description though.

[FrankReynolds]

No, but they may use the TH whore that's already on the spot and replace the SMN with something otherwise useful.


What event are you currently doing where the summoner is only there to block a single SP move every 30 - 60 minutes? And remember that this won't even block a lot of SP moves.

[Arcon]

What event are you currently doing where the summoner is only there to block a single SP move every 30 - 60 minutes? And remember that this won't even block a lot of SP moves.

I'm not doing anything that involves SMN, which is precisely my problem. On the other hand, everything I do already has a THF there.

[FrankReynolds]

I'm not doing anything that involves SMN, which is precisely my problem. On the other hand, everything I do already has a THF there.

Just to be clear, what content is this good for and why? Because so far all I've seen is that this move would be useful on one monster in legion, and I'm not even sure that that is true.

I mean obviously anything that hurts an NM and helps you is useful, but this is an SP ability. It is in no way game changing or job defining. It won't make anyone change their strategy for any event even a little and I suspect that will not change when they add more jobs / content. I really think that everyone is going to regret it if they don't speak up.

[Arcon]

Just to be clear, what content is this good for and why? Because so far all I've seen is that this move would be useful on one monster in legion, and I'm not even sure that that is true.

Actually, almost every monster in Legion. I only mentioned Gallu because you'd probably save it for the worst. It would also be useful on sky gods, sea jailers, some MB mobs, AV, pretty much everything anyone can do, except for Odin and NNI.


It is in no way game changing or job defining.

Nor should it be. Anything game-changing or strategy-redefining would be overpowered and would have to be nerfed again, similarly to Embrava or Perfect Defense. SP abilities were and still are a horrible idea, it's terrible game design. They should always be situational and never be able to be relied on.


I really think that everyone is going to regret it if they don't speak up.

I'm not speaking up because I don't know how they could do better (aside from improving upon it, something like steal more buffs or whatever, but same idea). I wouldn't trade this for anything I can think of at the moment. What would you suggest? 30 seconds of Resolution-like WS damage and triple damage on melee swings? That's horrible. It would help you kill one mob faster solo, two tops. It would speed up lowmanning big NMs by a noticeable but largely irrelevant margin (and only one NM too). And you'd still be a horribly gimp DD in alliance situations. Where is the upside in that? I don't see it. Giving THF a new SP ability is not going to make them a relevant DD, nor should it be doing that. That's what regular abilities and traits are for. Something that's only usable once every hour is never gonna redefine a job unless it's broken (see SMN and SCH).

[FrankReynolds]

Actually, almost every monster in Legion. I only mentioned Gallu because you'd probably save it for the worst. It would also be useful on sky gods, sea jailers, some MB mobs, AV, pretty much everything anyone can do, except for Odin and NNI.

I meant really useful. People were mashing all that stuff (with the exception of AV) out en mass long before the level increase or any mention of new abilities.


Nor should it be. Anything game-changing or strategy-redefining would be overpowered and would have to be nerfed again, similarly to Embrava or Perfect Defense. SP abilities were and still are a horrible idea, it's terrible game design. They should always be situational and never be able to be relied on.

Actually that was the whole point of putting abilities on such a long timer. It was because the abilities were supposed to be able to define strategy. They made a few abilities too powerful and a few events too hard to go with them.


I'm not speaking up because I don't know how they could do better (aside from improving upon it, something like steal more buffs or whatever, but same idea). I wouldn't trade this for anything I can think of at the moment. What would you suggest? 30 seconds of Resolution-like WS damage and triple damage on melee swings? That's horrible. It would help you kill one mob faster solo, two tops. It would speed up lowmanning big NMs by a noticeable but largely irrelevant margin (and only one NM too). And you'd still be a horribly gimp DD in alliance situations. Where is the upside in that? I don't see it. Giving THF a new SP ability is not going to make them a relevant DD, nor should it be doing that. That's what regular abilities and traits are for. Something that's only usable once every hour is never gonna redefine a job unless it's broken (see SMN and SCH).

I'm not saying that they need to completely replace it. But I do think it needs to do more. One way would be to have it just steal the abilities before they are used. Ie. if you are fighting a war/blm NM and you use your SP ability, you are granted 45 seconds of mighty strikes and / or manafont, while the NM is blocked from using those for the duration that you have it. Or, they could add some amount of TH boost to it, or they could make it steal all buffs, or they could add an additional effect of amnesia, or they could make it set all our other ability timers to 0 for 30 seconds, or they could add a huge triple attack bonus that degrades over a few minutes or... you get the point.

[Camate]

Greetings!

I have some information to share about puppetmaster (and I suppose ranger too indirectly) and ninja.


Puppetmaster
We will be proceeding with puppetmaster’s new special ability as it currently is on the Test Server.

Aside from this, based on suggestions that we received for this new special ability, we are considering some things for future adjustments and would like to share them with you.

Eagle Eye Shot
There have been a lot of requests to improve the damage capabilities of Eagle Eye Shot, but we will not be making adjustments specifically for automatons. Since this ability’s owner is the ranger, we are planning to revamp Eagle Eye Shot and we will make the changes to the automaton version based on this.


Strengthening Automatons
In regards to suggestions for abilities to strengthen automatons, we believe that instead of having this done via the new special ability it should be realized through Overdrive. In the future, we will be performing adjustments on Overdrive and would like to use your ideas as reference.

We will continue to make adjustments to puppetmaster as a whole including attachment adjustments.


Ninja
Based on feedback, to make better use of ninja’s new special ability we will be increasing the effect duration from 30 seconds to 45 seconds.

Though there may be differences depending on equipment and other support effects, the effect of this ability should increase the amount of attack rounds so that you can fire off 3-4 weapon skills in those 45 seconds.

[Sunrider]

Still waiting to hear Red Mage's latest SP abortion has been eliminated and Encomium returned with double duration and potency.

Anything less is unacceptable.

[Byrth]

Double Duration/Potency... and SE has decided to change Accession so it stacks with all forms of white magic.

[Mefuki]

Is there anything SE could do to make the current RDM SP2 functional? Perhaps we should give improvement suggestions for it as well, just in case the devs are married to the whole enfeebling theme.

[Demon6324236]

Besides adding new spells that are worth using, or reworking how current spells work, no, nothing would really make the current ability any good at all.

[Merton9999]

Double Duration/Potency... and SE has decided to change Accession so it stacks with all forms of white magic.

This x 10000. Also, it's totally awesome that so far the only responses to the PUP and NIN SP dev post are about the RDM SP.

[Demon6324236]

Because its just them saying "Were not changing PUP, if anything we will change EES which will effect PUP, deal with it" and telling us they are making NIN a little better. RDM was again, left out, which is not good. They fail to ever understand just how much the player base cares about that job, and how little they see coming to it.

[Pebe]

i posted this in the RIP RDM< forum but I thought it wouldn't hurt to repaste here because its talks about my ideal RDM 2hr. It has a few other things included as well.

I believe that rdm can still have a nitch as an enfeebler they just need to give rdm enfeebles that are worth a damn and that cripple the mob.

What enfeebles we currently have that cripple the mobs:
Silence, Sleep, Bind, Blind, Paralyze, Slow, Break, Dia III and Bio III(not really enfeebles), Addle, Gravity ( I know I am missing something)

So going over the enfeebles: We have ways to hinder the mobs spells(silence and addle), and attacks(everything else). What we are lacking are enfeebles that hinder a mobs tp moves, this is the real killer. Thus I propose this:
Give rdm Amnesia and Stop and/or Terror. Now everyone will say oh thats to overpowered blah blah blah. SMN gets 60 seconds of invincibility and an instant death move(doesn't work on NMs I know). Blu gets a 15 second terrorize on a 5 min timer. Technically they could terror lock something for 60 seconds with their new 2hr. All that is important is how these enfeebles are implemented.

For instance: Amnesia - sticks well on normal monsters, make its last 60 seconds max, most normal monsters die in 5 seconds anyway. It should be able to stick well on normal NMs and lower lvl HNMs but grow in resistance fast. For High lvl HNMs, like chamber of Mul, it should be extremely resistant. People will say oh but this is then useless. I will explain why it is useful later.

Terror - Should be a glorified dark based stun that can last as long as shock squall. Shock squall is still better because its AoE and thats fine. Give the smns some sort of niche XD. It should stick well on normal monsters and NMs, should stick also moderatly well on HNMs with a very good enfeebling build(makes rdms have a reason to pimp out their enfeebling). I see nothing wrong with this because it will operate the same as shock squall. Perhaps make HNMS have a shorter duration of terror max, like 7 seconds instead of 15. Balance and all that jazzz.

Stop - Should only be able to use this under RDM's new enfeebling 2hr. This new 2hr guarantees an enfeeble will land regardless of resistance.(If the mob is immune it should make it land as well >.>, it is a 2hr....well soon to be 1hr... after all. This also where amnesia gets it usefulness on HNMs. If for some reason you needed an HNM to keep moving and casting but not do TP moves. Like a kite fight or something, or something where the mob changes damage types when it casts etc) So basically stop will be the end all be all enfeeble for rdm(I gave up hope on time mage q.q). If you think about it combines all other enfeebles. Enfeebles are meant to hinder the mob in any way shape and form, Stop is the epitome of that.This ability should last a good 30 to 60 seconds, preferably 60 because that is how long PD will cap close too on a fully decked out smn. Actually you can have duration be based on enfeebling magic skill. More incentive to gear rdm the best as possible.

As an aside, a new enfeeble I just thought up:
Phase - prevents and enemy from changing their "stance" (IE: Amphatrite and Lusca with their damage type changing BS). When this is on the mob it will prevent one occurence of stance change and then wear off. Keep it on a long timer like 2 mins so it can't be abused. Also forces more bringing of rdms if you want to use this for strategy.

Edit: As I was writing the phase enfeeble i forgot to mention that Stop should hinder stance changes as well. The mob should literally be frozen in time. The reason I say this is because countless times when thigns were red staggered in Abyssea they would still change their damage type resistances even though they weren't actually doing anything... soo annoying.

Edit 2: New enfeeble
Name pending - Nullifies an enemies Physical and magical resistances for 60 seconds. (IE botulus,slimes, etc) This should also be on the 2hr. You should have to choose between nullifying the offensive or defense capabilities of a mob. Also, they should not be stackable.

TLDR - Give RDM the enfeebles it deserves!

[saevel]

Because its just them saying "Were not changing PUP, if anything we will change EES which will effect PUP, deal with it" and telling us they are making NIN a little better. RDM was again, left out, which is not good. They fail to ever understand just how much the player base cares about that job, and how little they see coming to it.

I believe the CR's are under a standing policy to not report anything RDM related to the developers. We can already see the developers only get information from the JP boards, the NA ones are just a reporting outlet with the occasional CR acting as a go-between in a case by case basis. So if it's RDM related and posted on the NA forum then it doesn't get brought to the developers, if it's RDM related on the JP forums it's only brought to them if nothing else is going on.

[Demon6324236]

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the JP forums saying the same thing at this point anyways?

[Keyln]

Still waiting to hear Red Mage's latest SP abortion has been eliminated and Encomium returned with double duration and potency.

Anything less is unacceptable.

Does everything need to be about RDM? I know you're enthusiastic about Red Mage and all, but do realize that there are 19 other jobs, and nearly all of them need adjustments of one sort or another.

[Demon6324236]

Just like how everyone bitched about BST, now everyone is bitching about RDM, its because they are just that stupid, even if you don't play the job, you understand how terrible it is. Other jobs don't seem to have it as bad, they have some use, but this, nothing.

[saevel]

Does everything need to be about RDM? I know you're enthusiastic about Red Mage and all, but do realize that there are 19 other jobs, and nearly all of them need adjustments of one sort or another.

RDM it beyond broken, there are 19 total jobs in FFXI right now as RDM basically doesn't exist. This is a direct result of "over-balancing" coupled with inattention over a period of years. RDM was a zombie long before the 80 cap, it completely died after then and SE has refused to do anything about it.

Seriously did you read the RDM "SP" ability? It's Elemental Seal -1 on a 60 min timer. It's by far the absolute worst ability they've ever come up with. A RDM/BLM can use something better then the "SP" ability six times for every use of the ES-1. That is how bad it is. It would be like giving THF the SP that steals beastcoins but it can miss and is on a 60m timer.

[Mageoholic]

Does everything need to be about RDM? I know you're enthusiastic about Red Mage and all, but do realize that there are 19 other jobs, and nearly all of them need adjustments of one sort or another.

Can you name the last meaningful update that RDM received that helped define its requirement in a group situation?...neither can I because it has never had one. It has been gifted placebo's over the years, Refresh, Composure, Refresh II, possibly Haste II. It has never undergone a makeover like DNC, it has never seen the direct buffs of PUP, it has never had the role defining adjustments of dedicated jobs. It has ambled along for a decade with no clear cut purpose and outside of its heyday as Meripo healer, and niche role as chainspell stunner it has never had a required tool to bring to the table. It is replaceable in every sense of the word, in nearly every situation it could be involved in.

Now we are at 99, and you know what.../RDM is just as useful as RDM main in any group setting. BRD/RDM is can bring everything a RDM main can, in addition to everything a BRD brings to the table. What other jobs are currently more useful to a group in a subjob capacity?

If SE wants RDM to be defined by its enfeebling and enhancing magic roles, then it needs to make it the best in these positions, the only way to do that is to make enfeebling and enhancing skill actually impact the buffs and debuffs RDM can provide.

If this is not SE's desired approach, then they need to directly improve those areas where they see RDM as a utility. Presently there is no reason to bring a RDM. Its T2 enfeebles are marginal improvements over T1 enfeebles at best, and its other tools are gained by subbing it. Haste and Refresh being attained at sub job level allow for a job like BRD to cap magic haste on its own, and provide more Refresh than RDM can with Refresh II. Its utility is non existent, and its abilities attained post 75 can't even be applied to party members, even as single targets.

RDM is the single worst off job in this game presently because the only viable abilities that could be useful are locked under level 75 mechanics. Regardless of SP ability given RDM will flounder until SE stops being afraid of RDM and actually gives it meaningful purpose, and a reason to be invited. Enfeebling and Enhancing are the only real avenues to pursue and to fix those, you need to make RDM's skill lead in those schools count for something.

But I would love to see your case for a job worse off than RDM. Keep in mind other than ToAU merit parties and chain spell stun, RDM has been entirely replaceable throughout this games history.


(and shit after the implementation of SCH, WHM/SCH could handle meripo parties just as efficiently as a RDM, so even its status as meripo healer was whisked away, leaving its only required use as Chainspell stunning, which was needed in a minute amount of situations.)

[tyrantsyn]

Does everything need to be about RDM? I know you're enthusiastic about Red Mage and all, but do realize that there are 19 other jobs, and nearly all of them need adjustments of one sort or another.

No it doesn't need to be just about RDM, but it is because of the utter failure in communication and the fact that so many are vocal about it.

There was a thread (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/26727-DEV-1135-RDM-2-HOUR)made, PPL gave good feed back on how they'd like to see it implemented. And they completely deep 6 the idea with out even giving the player base a reason. On top of that they gave us a simple one shot deal that no one has been happy with. They couldn't even say "hey we goof up, and don't think this idea is going to work out with the way we first envision it. So were going to change it."

The first SP on RDM wasn't a failure like the BST one. Little to no one complained about it and most were happy with it minus some adjustments. So it makes no sense at all with what they did. Because unlike us, they have fail to communicate what their thought's were on it.

I mean if thing's are going to be this one side, what's the point of even leaving feed back (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/26727-DEV-1135-RDM-2-HOUR?p=383048#post383048)?

[Merton9999]

No it doesn't need to be just about RDM, but it is because of the utter failure in communication and the fact that so many are vocal about it.

There was a thread (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/26727-DEV-1135-RDM-2-HOUR)made, PPL gave good feed back on how they'd like to see it implemented. And they completely deep 6 the idea with out even giving the player base a reason. On top of that they gave us a simple one shot deal that no one has been happy with. They couldn't even say "hey we goof up, and don't think this idea is going to work out with the way we first envision it. So were going to change it."

The first SP on RDM wasn't a failure like the BST one. Little to no one complained about it and most were happy with it minus some adjustments. So it makes no sense at all with what they did. Because unlike us, they have fail to communicate what their thought's were on it.

I mean if thing's are going to be this one side, what's the point of even leaving feed back (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/26727-DEV-1135-RDM-2-HOUR?p=383048#post383048)?

You nailed it, really. My annoyance isn't so much that RDM doesn't get anything exciting or useful anymore. It's that the producer has made three "we're listening to you" claim posts now, but that's all they are is claims.

Because of the universal distaste for the SP ability and the fact that it's completely different than what players asked for in response to the first one, RDM is now just the poster child for SE's unwillingness to act on player feedback, despite verbally responding to it in a banal way.

[Psxpert2011]

YES!!! XD


MNK Grants a 100% counter-rate against regular attacks from enemies. Also, the amount of enmity gained by this will increase drastically.

eer, okay! I'm cool with that!


PLD Grants an increase to the chance of blocking with a shield and reflects the blocked damage to the attacker.

Awesome!


RNG The range modifier will become the optimal distance no matter the range to the target. Also, ammunition will not be consumed.

I like!


BST Absorbs the pet and recovers both HP and removes status ailments. Also, the player will receive a Reraise effect.

Um, I was expecting something else...

Please, take it back to the drawing board. "Run Wild" is better than this and I carry RR scrolls if I'm not on /whm.

[Zirael]

YES!!! XD



eer, okay! I'm cool with that!



Awesome!



I like!



Um, I was expecting something else...

Please, take it back to the drawing board. "Run Wild" is better than this and I carry RR scrolls if I'm not on /whm.
You're a bit late to the party, SE has rewritten most of these abilities completely. Have a look around how they work now, or on test server.

[Carth]

Is there anything SE could do to make the current RDM SP2 functional? Perhaps we should give improvement suggestions for it as well, just in case the devs are married to the whole enfeebling theme.

The only way they can make it better is by making it last for more than one spell and allowing it to break immunity.

However, this is simply placebo because the Enfeebling system hasn't updated beyond level 75 cap, so while Monster resistances have gotten stronger, our enfeebling has not. I know they said they're looking to improve on the Enfeebling system, but they need to bring that out first before releasing a SP that does absolutely nothing.

[Byrth]

I suspect SE fears a repeat of Tabula Rasa, which is why they're hesitant to
1) Make the enfeebling 2-hour powerful and resistance-breaking, which would let you freeze yourself during fights and maintain a debuff like Gravity.
2) Restore the old 2-hour

[Thore]

How about a 3rd version of rdms new 2hr?

SuperOmega Bad Breath: Upon activation the enemy is afflicted with numerous (if not all) enfeebling effects, bypasses immunities and surpasses cap, Instant Use.

But really, their current idea has got to go the way of pankration, maze mongers, chocobo racing... etc. gone and certainly forgotten.

[CireFF]

Greetings!

I have some information to share about puppetmaster (and I suppose ranger too indirectly) and ninja.


Puppetmaster
We will be proceeding with puppetmaster’s new special ability as it currently is on the Test Server.

Aside from this, based on suggestions that we received for this new special ability, we are considering some things for future adjustments and would like to share them with you.

Eagle Eye Shot
There have been a lot of requests to improve the damage capabilities of Eagle Eye Shot, but we will not be making adjustments specifically for automatons. Since this ability’s owner is the ranger, we are planning to revamp Eagle Eye Shot and we will make the changes to the automaton version based on this.


Strengthening Automatons
In regards to suggestions for abilities to strengthen automatons, we believe that instead of having this done via the new special ability it should be realized through Overdrive. In the future, we will be performing adjustments on Overdrive and would like to use your ideas as reference.

We will continue to make adjustments to puppetmaster as a whole including attachment adjustments.




Thank you so much for the response! It's a relief to know that the developers are recieving the feedback regarding Heady Artiface. Since the main issue many PUPs have with the ability is how they're utilized with the automaton's inherent restrictions, it's encouraging to know that while H.A. will remain as proposed, they are still going to look into adjusting the automatons themselves. Perhaps after some of those things are addressed H.A. will be more effective (awkward increased casting/RA delay when mixing heads- I'm looking at you >.>)

It's also very welcoming to hear that adjustments to Eagle Eye Shot and Overdrive are being considered. I'm sure any RNG or PUP will excitedly embrace these changes.

I am curious, though, if other old 2-hour adjustments are being considered alongside these? (Invincible negating ALL dmg and not just physical, perhaps?)



On another note, the recent interim report mentions that sometimes it's difficult when the development team is looking at proposed adjustments in the context of future changes they want to make down the road, while the players are simply looking at how the adjustments affect the game how it is now. I can't help but wonder if the RDM SP ability is an example of this. The development team really needs to understand however, that simply inveiling an ability without providing the context of the future changes is only going to inflame the player-base, which is the exact opposite of what they're trying to do by making us excited about new additions. The players will be much more understanding and excited for these new abilities only if the underlying systems are changed FIRST. New abilities added before the system is changed/fixed feels backwards and is inviting complaints and criticisms and frustrations.

[Kristal]

Greetings!

I have some information to share about puppetmaster (and I suppose ranger too indirectly) and ninja.


Puppetmaster
We will be proceeding with puppetmaster’s new special ability as it currently is on the Test Server.

Aside from this, based on suggestions that we received for this new special ability, we are considering some things for future adjustments and would like to share them with you.

Eagle Eye Shot
There have been a lot of requests to improve the damage capabilities of Eagle Eye Shot, but we will not be making adjustments specifically for automatons. Since this ability’s owner is the ranger, we are planning to revamp Eagle Eye Shot and we will make the changes to the automaton version based on this.


Strengthening Automatons
In regards to suggestions for abilities to strengthen automatons, we believe that instead of having this done via the new special ability it should be realized through Overdrive. In the future, we will be performing adjustments on Overdrive and would like to use your ideas as reference.

We will continue to make adjustments to puppetmaster as a whole including attachment adjustments.



Good news for PUPs there, although I wonder... are the devs also considering a quickswap option for automatons like players have with jobs? It would be a great tool to have in any case, but it's going to be especially important for the new SP2.
And Harlequin.. poor Harlequin.. I hope the devs realize that the frail little thing would spontaniously short-circuit if you tried to Heady Artifice it... keep in mind it's been exposed to sea water for years before it was found again, left rotting and rusting. It needs a complete disassembly and renewal, not a lick of paint...


On another note, the recent interim report mentions that sometimes it's difficult when the development team is looking at proposed adjustments in the context of future changes they want to make down the road, while the players are simply looking at how the adjustments affect the game how it is now. I can't help but wonder if the RDM SP ability is an example of this. The development team really needs to understand however, that simply inveiling an ability without providing the context of the future changes is only going to inflame the player-base, which is the exact opposite of what they're trying to do by making us excited about new additions. The players will be much more understanding and excited for these new abilities only if the underlying systems are changed FIRST. New abilities added before the system is changed/fixed feels backwards and is inviting complaints and criticisms and frustrations.

I have the same position on this. RDM SP2 (for some reason I want to call it "Endymion" now) makes no sense in the current game, but might work in an environment where ordinary Elemental Seal cannot reliably land an enfeeble against 999 defense, while SP2 would land it for great effectiveness (especially when you combo it with Saboteur).

Surely the devs must understand by now that the players resentment for the change lies with the lack of information? Inform us already!

[FrankReynolds]

I have the same position on this. RDM SP2 (for some reason I want to call it "Endymion" now) makes no sense in the current game, but might work in an environment where ordinary Elemental Seal cannot reliably land an enfeeble against 999 defense, while SP2 would land it for great effectiveness (especially when you combo it with Saboteur).

Surely the devs must understand by now that the players resentment for the change lies with the lack of information? Inform us already!

I think the best route to take would be to make sure all content is ready before releasing it instead of releasing half baked stuff, getting people all riled up and then constantly telling them to be patient while they fix it.

Right now, I feel like the waiter keeps dropping raw chicken on my plate and going "Just wait a while. It'll be good when it's cooked. I swear.". But, only half the food ever gets cooked...

[Kristal]

I think the best route to take would be to make sure all content is ready before releasing it instead of releasing half baked stuff, getting people all riled up and then constantly telling them to be patient while they fix it.

Well.. it IS the test server, after all. They can try out different options and see what works best and what is liked more or less. But even then they should know that it's no use adding a new feature when there's no proper test environment yet... It's like testing icing effects on winter tires on a hot summer day.

[sweetidealism]

The only way they can make it better is by making it last for more than one spell and allowing it to break immunity.

However, this is simply placebo because the Enfeebling system hasn't updated beyond level 75 cap, so while Monster resistances have gotten stronger, our enfeebling has not. I know they said they're looking to improve on the Enfeebling system, but they need to bring that out first before releasing a SP that does absolutely nothing.

I agree wholeheartedly. However, in its current state and in the current metagame, I feel it would be a welcome addition to Red Mage's arsenal if it weren't on an SP Timer.

[Demon6324236]

Problem is, its on one, and if we show we like it even a little bit, no matter how or why, we will be stuck with it forever on this timer.

[Camate]

Hello!



I don't normally say this, but you've got to cut the devs some slack on the Meikyo Shisui one. If you think about how mobs perform tp moves it would be very difficult to program the Meikyo Shisui as an actual "buff." It would seemingly require a complete recoding of mob's tp mechanisms because they don't "normally" use their tp moves as soon as they have 100 tp, unless their hp is below 25%. You'd have to create a check of some sort, if mob has Meikyo Shisui then use tp move if tp is over 100. However, I'm sure with SE's programming, this would require a reprogramming of every mob that uses Meikyo Shisui.

I'm sure Astral Flow works similarly, the mob doesn't actually gain a buff, the avatar is just programmed to use its respective 2-hour whenever the dust cloud goes off for X minutes.

That said, it would be nice if the THF SP2 inflicted the mob with an amnesia of some sort so the proceeding effects of the mob's SP1 fail. It's not like a THF would actually have any use for astral flow, but the ability to prevent a mob from using it would be very valuable.


We looked into your suggestion, but with the current specs of the game, even if we were to make it so amnesia was inflicted on the enemy, once it wears off the monster would proceed to use their weapon skills in succession (they do not lose their TP), so it was thought that this would not be much of a help.

Additionally, it’s not possible to make so the system determines whether Meikyo Shisui or another ability is active and inflicts amnesia, so it would have to be inflicted regardless of the ability you are aiming to steal, which would largely change the nature of the ability. Due to this we would have to recreate the entire ability.

While it is unfortunate, it is very difficult to address Meikyo Shisui and Astral Flow with this ability.

[Alhanelem]

Hello!



We looked into your suggestion, but with the current specs of the game, even if we were to make it so amnesia was inflicted on the enemy, once it wears off the monster would proceed to use their weapon skills in succession (they do not lose their TP), so it was thought that this would not be much of a help.

Additionally, it’s not possible to make so the system determines whether Meikyo Shisui or another ability is active and inflicts amnesia, so it would have to be inflicted regardless of the ability you are aiming to steal, which would largely change the nature of the ability. Due to this we would have to recreate the entire ability.

While it is unfortunate, it is very difficult to address Meikyo Shisui and Astral Flow with this ability.What about adjusting the nature of how monsters recieve these abilities, and just giving them the player buff effects (or a "dummy" effect) anyway since they won't do anything for the monster? Then you can check to see if this buff has been removed, and if it is, take the monster's TP away or remove the astral flow ability from the avatar.

As far as astral flow, I always thought they got the real effect because I could swear if you kept an avatar incapacitated long enough, they would lose the use of the 2hour ability.

You want specific suggestions on how to implement a solution, here is one.

(edit: On the flip side, I think thieves are not considering the utility of receiving the buff effect themselves- only the removal of the effect from the enemy- What thief wouldn't love to have Mighty Strikes or Blood Weapon or Hundred Fists? this being said, this should probably not be implemented if it can't be applied to all SP1 effects)

[Nebo]

Hello! We looked into your suggestion, but with the current specs of the game, even if we were to make it so amnesia was inflicted on the enemy, once it wears off the monster would proceed to use their weapon skills in succession (they do not lose their TP), so it was thought that this would not be much of a help.

Additionally, it’s not possible to make so the system determines whether Meikyo Shisui or another ability is active and inflicts amnesia, so it would have to be inflicted regardless of the ability you are aiming to steal, which would largely change the nature of the ability. Due to this we would have to recreate the entire ability.

While it is unfortunate, it is very difficult to address Meikyo Shisui and Astral Flow with this ability.

That IS unfortunate. Because this ability was already pretty weak before we found out that it doesn't work on Meikyo Shishui.

Its not like SAM SP1 is the end of the world, but this ability needed something extra added to it to be a viable SP2 BEFORE we found out it didn't work on SAM SP1.

The ability to steal one SP1 ability every hour may sound useful to some players, but it will face the same utility bottleneck that Aurasteal does: The overwhelming majority of content just doesn't have useful, dispellable or Stealable enhancement effects...and most of the ones that would be useful and desirable, CAN'T be stolen or dispelled by Aurasteal...sound familiar?

THF new SP2 in practice:


The majority of NMs do not use SP1
*The majority of the ones that do usually use them more than once. So again, groups will bring SMN or RDM or SCH...Better jobs with better Spells and Abilities to deal with Devastating SP1. (don't say it. No one is bringing more than one THF to anything)
The majority of SP1 cannot be stolen or are inconsequential (Perfect Dodge, Invincible etc)
The majority of SP1 that can be stolen are useless for a THF to "steal." So it's essentially just a utlity dispel for the few ones where it works and might be relevant.


"BUT it also steals regular enhancements just like Aurasteal!"

Exactly. You gave us Aurasteal -1 for 99% of game content. No thanks. Aurasteal can already steal two enhancements. Whereas this weak SP2 can only steal one.

THF SP2 Needs adjustment. The 1% of content where it will be useful does not outweigh the 99% of the content where it will be Aurasteal -1. The way it exists currently is not worthy of its recast timer.

I suppose this fits in with THF tradition though, as almost all of our abilities are not worthy of their long and shared recast timers: Mug, Steal, Aurasteal, Despoil, Hide, Flee, Accomplice, Collaborator, Conspirator.....etc.

Sorry, I'll just shut up. THF will stay weak. Nothing to see here.

[Nebo]

Ahem. Specific Suggestions and all that:

THF SP2: Steals All Enhancement Effects on Current Target (Including status granting SP1 Abilities)
THF SP2: Steals The SP1 from the target before they use it (Prevents SP1 Use).
THF SP2: In addition to stealing an enhancement effect (including status granting SP1 Abilities) Steals a massive amount of HP (at least enough to heal the THF to full).
THF SP2: In addition to stealing one enhancement effect (including status granting SP1 Abilities) Steals 300 TP + resets Sneak attack, Trick Attack and Bully Timers.
THF SP2: In addition to stealing one enhancement effect (including status granting SP1 Abilities), steals the monster's critical hit rate defense (+Critical Hit Rate for Alliance).

[Yarly]

There's like only 11 SP1 that are buffs that you can steal.
Of those 11, 5 of them are usable by THF and not just stolen as a means to disable the sp1. 6, assuming you are THF/DNC and you can steal Trance from the massive number of DNC-type monsters and you get the benefit of Trance despite not being DNC main. By usable, I just mean it benefits the THF in some tangible way which generously includes Perfect Dodge and Invincible.

I don't even know if there are any SCH-type monsters to steal Tabula Rasa from but I guess it'd be applicable in Ballista.

[FrankReynolds]

Hello!



We looked into your suggestion, but with the current specs of the game, even if we were to make it so amnesia was inflicted on the enemy, once it wears off the monster would proceed to use their weapon skills in succession (they do not lose their TP), so it was thought that this would not be much of a help.

Additionally, it’s not possible to make so the system determines whether Meikyo Shisui or another ability is active and inflicts amnesia, so it would have to be inflicted regardless of the ability you are aiming to steal, which would largely change the nature of the ability. Due to this we would have to recreate the entire ability.

While it is unfortunate, it is very difficult to address Meikyo Shisui and Astral Flow with this ability.

Maybe it's time to throw in the towel...

[Motenten]

Ahem. Specific Suggestions and all that:

THF SP2: Steals All Enhancement Effects on Current Target (Including status granting SP1)
THF SP2: Steals The SP1 from the target before they use it (Prevents SP1 Use).
THF SP2: In addition to stealing an enhancement effect (including status granting SP1 Abilities) Steals a massive amount of HP (at least enough to heal the THF to full).
THF SP2: In addition to stealing one enhancement effect (including status granting SP1 Abilities) Steals 300 TP + resets Sneak attack, Trick Attack and Bully Timers.
THF SP2:In addition to stealing one enhancement effect (including status granting SP1 Abilities), steals the monster's critical hit defense (+Critical Hit Rate for Alliance).



All interesting, but I think I like the fourth one best. Might limit it to just stealing all of the mob's current TP instead of the arbitrary 300 TP value, though. Certainly wouldn't consider that unbalanced, considering drk's SP2, and the timer reset would generally allow the thf to immediately use a stacked weaponskill along with it.

[Arcon]

THF SP2: Steals All Enhancement Effects on Current Target (Including status granting SP1)

What's a "status granting SP1"? This would be better than what we're getting right now. How much better? Not much at all. Effectively the same thing. Stealing Chainspell is bitchworthy, but stealing Chainspell and Aquaveil is amazing?


THF SP2: Steals The SP1 from the target before they use it (Prevents SP1 Use).

Would be hard to use strategically, harder than what we're getting. May end up being worse depending on how they implement it (and let's not kid ourselves, it's SE).


THF SP2: In addition to stealing an enhancement effect (including status granting SP1 Abilities) Steals a massive amount of HP (at least enough to heal the THF to full).

Sounds good. Still not much better than what we're currently getting.


THF SP2: In addition to stealing one enhancement effect (including status granting SP1 Abilities) Steals 300 TP + resets Sneak attack, Trick Attack and Bully Timers.

See above. Not much better than what we're currently getting.


THF SP2:In addition to stealing one enhancement effect (including status granting SP1 Abilities), steals the monster's critical hit defense (+Critical Hit Rate for Alliance).

This is the only suggestion that would be noticeably better than what we're getting right now and depending on the implementation it can be very powerful.

Not that I'd mind any of what you suggest, but none (except for the last) is noticeably better than what the development team came up with. I just don't understand your bitching.

[Nebo]

What's a "status granting SP1"? This would be better than what we're getting right now. How much better? Not much at all. Effectively the same thing. Stealing Chainspell is bitchworthy, but stealing Chainspell and Aquaveil is amazing?

Edit:

A "Status Granting SP1" Is one like Mighty Strikes, Perfect Dodge, Hundred Fists, etc. One that grants a status effect to the Mob. Unlike SAM SP1, Astral Flow, etc that are coded differently for mobs and do not grant them a status effect. See SE's reason that THF SP2 will not work on them.

99% of mobs don't use chainspell. A lot of the ones that do can use it more than once. You don't bring a THF to deal with that, you bring a better job with more utility that can deal with that.

Be that as it may, for the rest of the 99% of content (forgeting that stealing just 1 buff is weaker than Aurasteal). A Dispel ALL kind of move is more useful than stealing one random one. You are right, it's not OMGWTFBBQ better, it's just realistic and better for 99% of content that do not use SP1. And you are Guaranteed to get the buff you are after.

It's also more useful for mobs that use lots of defensive/offensive buffs in conjunction with other Things. So dispelling a defensive buff and their 2 hour etc. Contributing further to the death of the mob in a more "utility" aspect.


Would be hard to use strategically, harder than what we're getting. May end up being worse depending on how they implement it (and let's not kid ourselves, it's SE).

Stealing the ability BEFORE they use it would be harder to use strategically than trying to REACT to it after they use it? I don't understand your argument?


Sounds good. Still not much better than what we're currently getting.

You don't think the ability to steal TP and use a stacked WS right after would be much better than this? I disagree.

Solo, you have the possibility for serious spike damage and SC, as well as in alliances contributing more to DD as well.


See above. Not much better than what we're currently getting.


It might not be MUCH better, but it could be significant if it prevents you from taking a dirt nap while stealing their SP1 at the same time. Time unweakened vs waiting 5 minutes could be the most significant DD buff I suggested to this ability.


This is the only suggestion that would be noticeably better than what we're getting right now and depending on the implementation it can be very powerful.

I agree. It's a nice one.


Not that I'd mind any of what you suggest, but none (except for the last) is noticeably better than what the development team came up with. I just don't understand your bitching.

They are in fact, ALL, noticeably better than what they are suggesting. But I'm not surprised that you don't understand. Likewise, I don't understand your contentment with this weak, HIGHLY SITUATIONAL (even for THF) SP2.

But you and I have rarely ever been on the same page when it comes to THF.

[Nebo]

All interesting, but I think I like the fourth one best. Might limit it to just stealing all of the mob's current TP instead of the arbitrary 300 TP value, though. Certainly wouldn't consider that unbalanced, considering drk's SP2, and the timer reset would generally allow the thf to immediately use a stacked weaponskill along with it.

As an aside, Stealing all of the Monster's TP could also solve the SAM SP1 Ability issue as well.

[Mirage]

Let the new THF Special steal 2hours, and then continue to steal multiple buffs after that.

First effect guaranteed, and always a 2H if appliciable, chance of absorbing another buff depends on melee accuracy. Steal all buffs until the first time the thief "misses" a steal. It would be like a Barrage-Aurasteal, where the first steal was guaranteed.

Know how annoying it is when you've buffed up like crazy and a mob just goes "lol I absorb all your buffs"? You'd be doing that to the mobs, vengeance would be so, so sweet.

[Arcon]

Stealing the ability BEFORE they use it would be harder to use strategically than trying to REACT to it after they use it? I don't understand your argument?

Are you trolling me? How can that not be obvious? It's easier to react because you actually know when they use it. They use Chainspell, you steal it. Simple. Using it before means you're gambling on when/whether they'll use it. At worst you completely wasted your JA.


You don't think the ability to steal TP and use a stacked WS right after would be much better than this? I disagree.

And I disagree with you, I think it's borderline useless. An SP ability that gives THF one WS? That would be one of the worst DD abilities in the entire game. And in an alliance, it wouldn't even register in the parse, so it's completely useless there.


Likewise, I don't understand your contentment with this weak, HIGHLY SITUATIONAL (even for THF) SP2.

Pretty much every SP ability of every job is highly situational and that's how it should be, because the very concept of SP abilities is retarded. If they make one ability amazing for everything (like Embrava and PD) it will be used to devise entire strategies around those instead of regular job features, which not only dumbs down strategies in general, diminishes the role of a given job, or even rewrites their essence, but makes events themselves a chore, waiting for everyone's SP timers to be up, or, if in a hurry (which is almost always the case), reset them all.

No ability should ever be on more than a ten minute timer, it's horrible for game design. I'm glad they reduced all regular abilities to ten minutes or less, and even that is bordering on terrible.

[Nebo]

Are you trolling me? How can that not be obvious? It's easier to react because you actually know when they use it. They use Chainspell, you steal it. Simple. Using it before means you're gambling on when/whether they'll use it. At worst you completely wasted your JA.

Oh, I see. You are just misunderstanding what I meant. I meant stealing the 2 hour from them before they get a chance to use it. There is no gamble.

As in: "THF uses SP2" "THF Steals Mighty Strikes from NM" At which point THF gains the effect of Mighty Strikes for the ability duration and the NM loses the ability to use Mighty Strikes (In this way, theoretically, it could also be used on a lot of other "instant" SP1)

Kinda sorta like Dessication that Land worm NMs use? Well they doesn't really steal your 2 hour so much as reset the timers but...you get the general idea.


And I disagree with you, I think it's borderline useless. An SP ability that gives THF one WS? That would be one of the worst DD abilities in the entire game. And in an alliance, it wouldn't even register in the parse, so it's completely useless there.

But we are not talking "in place of" we are talking "in addition to" And I will repeat: No, it's not OMGWTFBBQ powerful, but it is a realistic idea, and I, for one, would find it to be quite useful. Especially if it Steals the TP from the NM (Can deal with SAM SP1 etc.)



Pretty much every SP ability of every job is highly situational and that's how it should be, because the very concept of SP abilities is retarded. If they make one ability amazing for everything (like Embrava and PD) it will be used to devise entire strategies around those instead of regular job features, which not only dumbs down strategies in general, diminishes the role of a given job, or even rewrites their essence, but makes events themselves a chore, waiting for everyone's SP timers to be up, or, if in a hurry (which is almost always the case), reset them all.

No ability should ever be on more than a ten minute timer, it's horrible for game design. I'm glad they reduced all regular abilities to ten minutes or less, and even that is bordering on terrible.

I would agree with you if the game wasn't programmed the way it is. But we do have 2 hours (soon to be 1 hour? Maybe in a year adjusted to 30 minutes?) and retarded timers...And this is the hand we have to deal with. Clearly they are moving ahead with this SP2 abilities, I doubt they will change their minds about implementing them....so......I want a good one. Not this weak crap.

And For sure, Embrava and PD needed the nerf bat, but the opposite end of that spectrum is also undesirable....we must find a BARANCE!!!!!!

[Raksha]

Oh, I see. You are just misunderstanding what I meant. I meant stealing the 2 hour from them before they get a chance to use it. There is no gamble.

As in: "THF uses SP2" "THF Steals Mighty Strikes from NM" At which point THF gains the effect of Mighty Strikes for the ability duration and the NM loses the ability to use Mighty Strikes (In this way, theoretically, it could also be used on a lot of other "instant" SP1)


"THF uses SP2" "THF Steals Mijin Gaikure from NM"

SE: TROLLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Otherwise I kinda like the idea.

[FrankReynolds]

"THF uses SP2" "THF Steals Mijin Gaikure from NM"

SE: TROLLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Otherwise I kinda like the idea.

Hah! I wouldn't put it past them.

[Camate]

Good morning everyone!

I wanted to share the reasoning as to why the development team chose the path they took for puppetmaster’s new special ability.

The new special ability started with the idea that since the original special ability “Overdrive” had an effect that was common between all automatons, they wanted to go with a slightly different concept and have effects be different based on the type of automaton so that each one could utilize the special ability of the respective job.

Since the special ability data is separate for automatons, it’s possible to make adjustments to certain aspects which should eliminate some of the concerns that there would be no use for these special abilities since automaton’s battle parameters are different.

Also, we are currently looking into adjusting “Overdrive” at the same time the new special ability is added.

[Byrth]

Good morning everyone!

I wanted to share the reasoning as to why the development team chose the path they took for puppetmaster’s new special ability.

The new special ability started with the idea that since the original special ability “Overdrive” had an effect that was common between all automatons, they wanted to go with a slightly different concept and have effects be different based on the type of automaton so that each one could utilize the special ability of the respective job.

Since the special ability data is separate for automatons, it’s possible to make adjustments to certain aspects which should eliminate some of the concerns that there would be no use for these special abilities since automaton’s battle parameters are different.

Also, we are currently looking into adjusting “Overdrive” at the same time the new special ability is added.

This is a good development concept because Puppetmasters pick their pets for their versatility, but despite the different effects the strategic use of most of the available SP Abilities are not different.

Here are the current JAs:
Mighty Strikes - Doesn't matter that much in terms of DPS because Automatons can't exceed 50% Haste and will at most get ~2 WSs off during Mighty Strikes (using Tactical Switch). This is just a damage spike, but at least it's a damage spike that takes a little work to make the most of.
Invincible - . . . Might have some kind of strategic use for extreme pet pulling? Attack something, retrieve, train the entire zone with an invincibled pet?
Eagle Eye Shot - 5x ranged damage is just a damage spike that you can use once an hour.
Chainspell - Oh good. I look forward to my auto silencing crabs faster. Assuming optimal usage, this is a damage spike JA.
Manafont - With the auto's casting timer, this will not create very many free spells unless you adjust its AI. Even when it does, this is a damage spike JA at its best.
Benediction - Probably the most useful 2-hour out of all of these, and the only one that doesn't really vary in potency between main jobs and automatons.


If you go back to adjust Overdrive, I would recommend making it wipe the Overload status and reducing burden to 0 when the Overdrive status wears off. Additionally, I would recommend reducing magic casting time, increasing frequency, and adding 25% Snapshot if it does not already do that. As it is right now Overdrive seems to benefit the melee auto disproportionately.

[SpankWustler]

I feel like a jerk pointing out such a small mistake, but you might want to correct that minor "Sharpshot" typo, Byrth? Any sane person knows you actually meant Snapshot, but I could totally see a Development Bro adding a 25% chance of the Automaton using Sharpshot before vigorously firing its cute little arrow hand.


Since the special ability data is separate for automatons, it’s possible to make adjustments to certain aspects which should eliminate some of the concerns that there would be no use for these special abilities since automaton’s battle parameters are different.

Manafont and Chainspell would both benefit from a change to the Automaton's AI when the ability is used, to make it focus entirely on Elemental Magic (and maybe Cures for Chainspell?) for the duration. Manafont, for example, could eliminate the puppet's desperate and nonsensical need to cast Aspir, often accomplishing nothing but resetting the global recast timer, when used at low MP values.

[Demon6324236]

Camate, is there any word on the RDM SP, and is there any chance of us seeing the one we asked for? All we want is the SP ability to give us +50~100% potency on our enhancing magic, BRD has had double potency songs as their SP for years, is it to much to ask we get +50% since we get so many more spells? Also, can the ability please last for 3 minutes so we have time to use our buffs properly? It seems fairly wrong that a RDM would need chainspell just to get off all their buffs on themselves in time, let alone their party, it really limits the use of the ability which is why we originally did not like the SP, but the idea of enhancing our enhancing magic was well accepted I believe.

[Alhanelem]

Chainspell - Oh good. I look forward to my auto silencing crabs faster. Assuming optimal usage, this is a damage spike JA.You obviously haven't played PUP in a while or you would know this is no longer much of an issue since the casting updates. yes, they'll still cast silence on crabs, but it no longer significantly interferes with the casting of other spells. They could always use different spell logic for Chainspell so only nukes are used during that time.

You seem to have something against damage spikes. Personally, this is the last thing I'd ever complain about... A "damage spike" of any sort is certainly a lot better than Overdrive. What are you looking for personally? A JA that makes the automaton cook dinner and wash the dishes for you?

People say I'm always negative... but when this JA was announced I thought it was a good idea. Perhaps a bit "cheap" because it's easier than making something totally new, but I sitll see it as a decent ability.

[Demon6324236]

Probably looking for something unique so they do not have 3 of them that do virtually the same thing. MS, CS, and EES are all damage spikes, Manafont is no-cost damage, and Benediction is instant HP save. 3 out of the 5 are basically the same, 1 of the 5 is basically worthless because if PUP is played in the most effective way it is done without the use of a SP ability.

[Alhanelem]

3 out of the 5 are basically the same,So what? they all help you. Most PUP I know just want to be competitive, and while 1-hours don't really alter much in the grand scheme of things, a sudden damage boost is certainly much nicer than an ability that does nearly nothing.

[Demon6324236]

You asked what they are looking for, my answer, they are probably looking for a bit more verity.

[Byrth]

Or any strategic advantage beyond a thousand extra damage from the puppet.

[Krysten]

has this been scrapped or what? its been months and months since this came out on test server

[Luvbunny]

Probably coming this summer or fall or winter or sometimes next year or 2019. I know it's not very helpful and rather vague but it's FFXI, what do you expect lol.

[Demon6324236]

Any idea when/if this is happening? If soon, can we know what your planning to do exactly?

[Babekeke]

Any idea when/if this is happening? If soon, can we know what your planning to do exactly?

They still haven't even come up with a SP2 for RUN and GEO yet. At least 1 month after they go live on the test server imo.

[Tptn937]

Happy 14 month anniversary. This game is so bad.

[dasva]

Any idea when/if this is happening? If soon, can we know what your planning to do exactly?

Probably when they finally figure out some concept of balance between the sp2s so everyone doesn't yell wtf as soon as they hit test server. Obviously I expect some difference in power level but cmon a weakened version of elemental seal for rdm super mantra for mnk while smn can chain bps and drk can drain 50+ tp a hit!?! That's about as balanced as putting a fat kid on a seesaw after you see a baby get on the other side

[Demon6324236]

In all honesty, that's why I want a list again. Back when they made this thread sounded like their most open time to share information and receive feedback that I can think of. It was ok, I admit, some was listened to, but they need to do it again, and finally implement these, but after we agree they are good. If we had a current list of them it would be easy to pick out the bad/worthless, but they have said nothing, and I keep hearing its next update for some reason which worries me.

[Ragnarok_Takagi]

New DRG Fly High ability only working for 30 seconds instead of the stated 45 seconds. blarg

[Okipuit]

Greetings,

Below is an update from Producer Akihiko Matsui in regards to adjustments for puppermaster’s Overdrive.



Matsui here.

Apologies to keep you all waiting, but due to some system-related issues that need to be resolved for the Overdrive adjustments, we have decided to push this back.

After the January version update, as long as we are able to resolve this issue we will be implementing the adjustments, so please give us a bit more time. We appreciate your understanding.

[Camate]

Greetings,

Below is an update from Akihiko Matsui regarding the previously mentioned Overdrive adjustments.



Matsui here.

I have some follow-up information regarding adjustments to Overdrive. The issue I mentioned previously (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/26191-New-2-hour-Abilities?p=482756&viewfull=1#post482756) has been resolved and we are working towards making the adjustments in the February version update.

Also, thank you for all the feedback about automaton accuracy. We are currently looking into overall increases to pet accuracy for the future.

Additionally, though this is somewhat off topic, in high-tier mission and seal battlefields there is a possibility that Target Marker will not function properly. We plan to correct this and appreciate your patience.

[dasva]

Stymie still needs to be fixed

[Demonjustin]

So long as the talks about these SPs is still open, I agree we need to fix that ability! We need our double potency Enhancing Magic SP2!

[Raydeus]

Yeah... how about trading Stymie for that legendary Enhancing Magic Enhancement Ability instead.

Something that augmented Composure by increasing Enhancing spell duration 5x and gave a 50%+ bonus to Enhancing spell potency if Composure is active for instance.

I mean don't get me wrong, if Stymie was like Chainspell and allowed us to stick any Enfs at 100% acc. while the ability was active it would be awesome, but in it's current state having to wait a full hour to cast only ONE spell is the same as having nothing at all because we've already been using Elemental Seal for that for over a decade and with a 10min recast to boot.

[Demonjustin]

I mean don't get me wrong, if Stymie was like Chainspell and allowed us to stick any Enfs at 100% acc. while the ability was active it would be awesome, but in it's current state having to wait a full hour to cast only ONE spell is the same as having nothing at all because we've already been using Elemental Seal for that for over a decade and with a 10min recast to boot.Even letting us use multiple spells, I can't see it being all too great since most of them they seem to wear off after a random period of time between 1 and 3 minutes even without resists.

[dasva]

Even worse stymie isn't 100%. It wont do anything against completely immune monsters and on resists against non completely immune monsters all it seems to do is turn a full resist into half. Good job you can land 1 enfeeble at half duration or less every hour.

Also to clarify the above slow, sleep, and poison (well bio/dia but meh) are set durations. The rest are really weird probably some kind of many resist states causing weird randomish durations.

Give it a 30 second duration and make it so the enfeebles land fully with no partial resists then it might be semi worthwhile (though really rdm enfeebles outside of silence don't make that much difference in the fight anyways)

[Demonjustin]

Also to clarify the above slow, sleep, and poison (well bio/dia but meh) are set durations. The rest are really weird probably some kind of many resist states causing weird randomish durations.Yeah, I never remember Poison exists since it is so bad, but really the most important enfeebles are Paralyze, Slow, Addle, & Silence, 3 of the 4 are random durations, thats all I was trying to get at.


Give it a 30 second duration and make it so the enfeebles land fully with no partial resists then it might be semi worthwhile (though really rdm enfeebles outside of silence don't make that much difference in the fight anyways)I would say Paralyze and Slow are fairly helpful too, Addle can be too, but its not most of the time.

[dasva]

Was just clarifying.

Helpful yes. Worth a party slot or waiting an hour for recharge no. Especially if you can only land it once in the fight. It's nice but wont change the outcome of the fight kind of thing. Which is why it has mostly fell into disuse except when you have someone with it that has nothing else better to do. It's like putting some evasion gear on your pld after you finish the rest of the defense stuff... will it help you evade another hit. Sure but meh. They really need to update the enfeebles in general. There was no reason naked elegy should've ever been stronger than full merited slow II or that saboteur only half works against nms which is where you actually could use it.

[Demonjustin]

Was just clarifying.:x


saboteur only half works against nms which is where you actually could use it.I see people say this all the time on here but I'm curious, what do you mean by that?

[Tamarsamar]

So, when are we replacing Stymie? Good riddance to bad rubbish, I'd say.

[Ophannus]

Stymie would be good if RDM had better debuffs to use it with. Random spells don't make wipes, random autoattacks don't make wipes, attack speed of the mob does not make wipes. What wipes alliances and parties are powerful TP moves that are used in close succession for example Ark Angel EV's Arrogance Incarnate being used very often at low HP. Nothing in RDM's arsennal can mitigate powerful TP moves, neither by weakening them or slowing their useage rate. To make Stymie, and by extension RDM useful, RDM needs something unique, a way to slow a mob's TP gain drastically, lower their special ability damage or rate of special abilities. Stun was great for this but now new NMs are immune to stun.

[dasva]

:x

I see people say this all the time on here but I'm curious, what do you mean by that?

Ok saboteur without getting into af3 doubles the effect and duration of a debuff. But against mobs that check ITG it will only increase it by 50%. Which is kinda silly since why would you even waste saboteur on a normal mob that dies so fast.

Also should note that saboteur as well as the enhance enfeebling effect gear do not work on bio/dia (at least not in the def/att down portion and who cares about the dot) which would be the most useful spells to use them with

[dasva]

So, when are we replacing Stymie? Good riddance to bad rubbish, I'd say.

At the very least make it a 2 minute duration that works on all magic. Another step would be to make it work on immune mobs. Even that would be kinda mehish given the state debuffing has been in for awhile.

I wouldn't mind the original idea they had of a 1 minute one that increased the duration and potency of buffs cast in that time. Except of course the duration part never even made it to test server and just potency would be meh.


Could also do something like sch or smn with special spells/abilites during this time. Like maybe gain access to all the monster debuff spells that we don't get. That would be sp2 worthy without being too broken. And personally I would think would be interesting. Would be enough for us to reexamine how we do some fights.

Hell I'd rather have nothing so I don't accidentally use it up and waste the 1 second it takes to use and block a useful sp2 for an hour lol

[Demonjustin]

Ok saboteur without getting into af3 doubles the effect and duration of a debuff. But against mobs that check ITG it will only increase it by 50%. Which is kinda silly since why would you even waste saboteur on a normal mob that dies so fast.

Also should note that saboteur as well as the enhance enfeebling effect gear do not work on bio/dia (at least not in the def/att down portion and who cares about the dot) which would be the most useful spells to use them withKnew most of that, just didn't know the whole 50% thing, that's stupid, but, nothing new, SE screws RDM even when they give them something.