Blood Pact Enhancement Stats Explained

[Okipuit]

Greetings!

We received some feedback asking for Blood Pact effects to scale in potency depending on the number of players in party (less players, stronger the effect), as they thought that the original effects were set the way they are now with a 6-person party in mind.

I figured now would be a good time to go ahead and pass on some information related to this to clear up any misconceptions about the way these stats were set.

The effects of a Blood Pact on an individual player have not been set based on the number of users around the Summoner, it is set based on how much of an effect the player should receive. The main merit for AoE type spells is MP efficiency, since the more users receive the buff, the less MP that needs to be spent.

With that said, there would not be any kind of trade-off when the effect is increased as the number of party members decreases. Similarly, there have also been requests to simply increase the effects of Blood Pacts as well as to change it into a single target effect. For the first request, the Blood Pact's effects has been set keeping similar spells in mind, so this aspect would need to be considered, and for the latter, if we were to make it single target, the effect may not be as powerful as everyone hopes for it to be.

[Alkar]

Honestly I think the main issue is that other jobs can cast the same buffs on party members but theirs not only are more powerful than Summoner's but also require less MP to cast.
One example would be SCH... Stoneskin is simply much better than Earten Ward.
I really don't see why Summoner shouldn't get more powerful buffs compared to other jobs. We need a pet out, we're on a 45 seconds timer that can't be reduced further and there's even a perpetuation cost on top of the actual cost of the Blood Pact itself (at least at lower levels when perpetuation gear is barely present). I think those limitations make sense if our buffs are actually powerful enough but when a SCH can do the same in a more efficient manner and with less limitations I don't see the point.
I know balance seems always the issue with Summoner but I think we've weak enough as it is, getting a better Stoneskin or Phalanx isn't gonna break the game. And possibly when cast on others not just while solo.

Edit: Yes, I'm aware that Earthen Ward lasts a lot longer than a normal Stoneskin but in a situation where an AoE Stoneskin is needed it won't stay up for the full duration anyway because it's there to absord AoE damage and after that you need to recast it. (And SCH can almost match the duration anyway)

[Ophannus]

SCH can AoE stoneskin but they also have their own limitations. (Light Arts has to be up, need to waste a strategem on Accession; recast is doubled with accession) also SMN is more versatile than SCH in terms of being able to AoE Stun, do considerable BP damage, Hastega, etc. So SMN isn't going to get any ridiculosuly strong enhancement bloodpacts(besides 2hr) since enhancing a party isnt the job's main focus(SMN is versatile, not a buff specialist like cors/brds). Usually if a job can fulfill multiple tasks/roles i.e SMN, the bufs they can use aren't the best. Yeah SCH has *slightly* less restrictions on AoE stoneskin but can they Hastega? Can they Stunga as well as Shocksquall? Can they do 1k+ damage to hard, magic resistant mobs? Can they AoE cure+remove status ailments simultaneously?

[Arcon]

Sometimes I feel I'm the only one who doesn't have a problem with SMN as it is. I certainly may be the only SMN who feels that way.

Some of our buffs are very to extremely useful (over 6min AoE Haste, Perfect Defense, Earthen Armor, Inferno Howl), which gives us a spot for various party-situations. Which we don't even need imo, because SMN already has two other uses: a) it's a very successful solo job for many situations and b) it can be used in combination with other pet jobs to take down almost any known mob in the game.

While I definitely wouldn't say no to new Blood Pacts, I don't feel that we need them to be able to play the game. It would just be something new to entertain me. If you want a SMN to become a buffer comparable to the level of a BRD, that's not gonna happen, ever. If you want SMN to become a DD that's even half as good as a mediocre THF, that's also not gonna happen, ever (although I wouldn't say no to it, as long as it doesn't exceed said mediocre THF in terms of DD capabilities). SMN has their niche, and I'm quite comfortable with it.

[Karbuncle]

Knowing darn well I'm going to come off offensive, I wanna just point out, I Don't hate any of you, in fact, I like most of you, I'm just passionate about Summoner, and about as tired as people saying "Its fine" as i am with people saying Thief or Red Mage are fine. So please go into this knowing that I'm not upset with any of you, I just do my best ranting when i'm well, Ranting.

------------------------------------

I don't mind buffs not scaling with people, Because it just sounds stupid as Sh*t. But as now, BP:Wards still need a buff across the board. I don't know why almost every single other Skill has effects on the magic it casts, rather accuracy or buff potency, and Summoning Magic is the key difference in that regard. When it was first out, Summoning magic didn't do jack or sh*t worth mentioning, It eventually helped Avatar Acc/Macc... I Just don't see any good reason it shouldn't apply to their buffs too.

I'm sorry, Being a mediocre pile of everything does not make the job good, Red Mage is a clear example of that. You can do 1k+ Damage on a Magic Resist mob? Good for you, So can a Half Nakid THF, in half the time, twice as often.

You can Stoneskin? So can every other job in the game if they sub SCH. on my SMN, as it stands, my Accession Stoneskin is MORE POWERFUL than my Bloodpact simply because the BP Doesn't scale, and I have access to decent Enhancing Magic and MND Gear.

The only unique AoE buff SMN Gets these days is Hastega, you can maybe count some of Diabolos/Fenrir Wards, But most of those can be mimic'd. I don't mind that Hastega can stay the same, But having 1 unique buff in an ocean of medciore buffs isn't really a good reason to keep the rest of the BP:Wards nerfed, considering despite all this "SCH CHARGES" crap - BP's are more limited. As at best, They're on 45 Second recasts, and If i'm not mistaken, Strategems are 30 seconds.

The only thing Summoner's are invited for these days are being a Proc Whore in VW, and Perfect Defense, If you're invited to anything else, the party leader is being polite and/or knows they can still win even while inviting a mediocre job. Because there's plenty of jobs that can do what you do, Better. Summoner has a lot of versatility, But its not enough in FFXI, not how we as a people play.

SMN Isn't so broken its on RDM's doorstep, But its only use is a 2hr and Procs, Which most jobs have, even SCH. that said, I'm not saying SCHRDMBLUETC Are perfect, But this isn't a SCH WHine thread, its a SMN Whine thread.

My ranting aside, All i want is lined out here:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/20628-Request-Update-Summoner-Bloodpacts-To-be-more-useful-at-this-new-cap

P.S - Who asked for Buffs to scale with the amount of players in the party? I should just start Google Translating my posts and put them in the JP Section, Maybe they'll get considered.

[Babekeke]

I don't know why almost every single other Skill has effects on the magic it casts, rather accuracy or buff potency, and Summoning Magic is the key difference in that regard. When it was first out, Summoning magic didn't do jack or sh*t worth mentioning, It eventually helped Avatar Acc/Macc... I Just don't see any good reason it shouldn't apply to their buffs too.

It increases duration. Warcry can last over 1:30, Hastega over 5:30, and Inferno Howl's potency IS actually affected by summoning magic skill, as well as it's duration.

Earthen ward isn't affecte4d by skill, but it does scale with level. At 99 it's 248 damage, but this IS also increased by all the 'enhances stoneskin' items; allowing one to recieve a max of 348 (yes those same items would make normal stoneskin 450).

[Karbuncle]

It increases duration. Warcry can last over 1:30, Hastega over 5:30, and Inferno Howl's potency IS actually affected by summoning magic skill, as well as it's duration.

Earthen ward isn't affecte4d by skill, but it does scale with level. At 99 it's 248 damage, but this IS also increased by all the 'enhances stoneskin' items; allowing one to recieve a max of 348 (yes those same items would make normal stoneskin 450).

Oops! I Forgot that too about Duration. Which is nice, Every skill point over cap gives you a duration buff up to a point... Then again, That buff was really to help it last about as long as normal buffs did. Most instances back before that, Our Buffs lasted significantly less than what others could put up, But it remained as was because well, It was AOE.

Second, Its nice to know it can go up to 350, Still a good chunk below what you can do on any other job as /SCH or SCH Main.

But thanks for the corrections anywho!

[Zhronne]

Premise: I'm not against what you said in this post I'm quoting or in THIS (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/20628-Request-Update-Summoner-Bloodpacts-To-be-more-useful-at-this-new-cap), just wanted to drop my two cents.


don't know why almost every single other Skill has effects on the magic it casts, rather accuracy or buff potency, and Summoning Magic is the key difference in that regard. When it was first out, Summoning magic didn't do jack or sh*t worth mentioning, It eventually helped Avatar Acc/Macc... I Just don't see any good reason it shouldn't apply to their buffs too.
Well it does?
It increases duration. If you recall the base lasting time was shit, now with a good summoning magic set you can get a lot of buffs over 180seconds which is good in my book.
For some BPs it also affects its strenght/potency.
Tbh the issue here, more than "fixing the job" as a hole, is about fixing a few blood pacts, making so their base stats are improved or scale better with summoning magic, or both things.
Earthen Ward is one of them, but there are definitely a couple more.
When you talk about "not having enough exclusive buffs" please remember that we're soon gonna get:
1) An additional Avatar, Caith Sith (with additional BPs! :P)
2) An additional 2hr Avatar (Atomos)
3) An additional 2hr JA (just like every other job)



I'm sorry, Being a mediocre pile of everything does not make the job good, Red Mage is a clear example of that. You can do 1k+ Damage on a Magic Resist mob? Good for you, So can a Half Nakid THF, in half the time, twice as often.
I don't want to say SMN is fine as it is, but in a game with 20+ jobs it's pretty clear you have to make so certain jobs are better/moreefficient than others. If you're too anal about getting all jobs being perfectly "balanced" in that regard, you run into the consequence of making all of them too similar/homogeneized.
It's bad saying this, especially when one of the jobs who's not among "the good ones" is one of your favourite, but in the long run it's a good thing for all of us.



They're on 45 Second recasts, and If i'm not mistaken, Strategems are 30 seconds.
Stratagems are on 48seconds recast after level 90.
I wish it were 30 at level 99! :(
I'd be fine with 48 seconds and 6 charges too probably.



The only thing Summoner's are invited for these days are being a Proc Whore in VW, and Perfect Defense
The same thing could be said about Scholar and Embrava, and back in the days for COR and Wild Card and overall many jobs have been in such a situation over the years.
At least SMN does have a reason for other people to invite them to PTs.
What should jobs like PUP or BST say in that regard? And other jobs as well.
SMN's situation may not be as good as other jobs, but it's not as bad as others either.


Also, SMN is still a powerful job when stacked together. Think about how many things can an Alliance of 18SMNs do if they want, but even less. Look at the new Limbus bosses, currently one of the easiest/mostefficient strategy is to spam SMNs at it.
Making SMN too powerful risks making SMN-stacking perhaps *too efficient*.
I'm sure SE knows this and that's why it's reluctant to buff SMN.

IN SPITE OF THIS I think some BPs should be fixed, like I mentioned above, and I also think the following things should be fixed
BP recast times: 45 is too much, allow us to stack gear up to 30 seconds please. We'd still be bound by MP limits, seeing what the average MP cost for a BP is, I think it would be a good balancment making the job more efficient without making it "too strong"
Fix the range of Avatar's Favour. AF is currently a very underestimated and powerful buff, but with such a short range it's hard to make good use of it, so almost nobody does which is a shame. "Potency" is fine as it is for most buffs, but something needs to be done about the range imho

[Karbuncle]

Premise: I'm not against what you said in this post I'm quoting or in THIS (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/20628-Request-Update-Summoner-Bloodpacts-To-be-more-useful-at-this-new-cap), just wanted to drop my two cents.

Good, Thats how i like it. Same rules of my first post apply too btw.


Well it does?
It increases duration.

Asked and Answered. Er well, 1 post up. I Corrected that lol. So i won't quote the rest.


When you talk about "not having enough exclusive buffs" please remember that we're soon gonna get:
1) An additional Avatar, Caith Sith (with additional BPs! :P)
2) An additional 2hr Avatar (Atomos)
3) An additional 2hr JA (just like every other job)

IDK, I don't like the idea of our uses being entirely 2hour. SCH has that problem too. As far as Cait sith buffs, I significantly doubt it'll be anything that makes the job useful, But i will hope a lot.


I don't want to say SMN is fine as it is, but in a game with 20+ jobs it's pretty clear you have to make so certain jobs are better/moreefficient than others. If you're too anal about getting all jobs being perfectly "balanced" in that regard, you run into the consequence of making all of them too similar/homogeneized.

It's bad saying this, especially when one of the jobs who's not among "the good ones" is one of your favourite, but in the long run it's a good thing for all of us.

I don't think SMN needs a Balancing, I think what it needs is to crawl out of the mediocrity it currently is. At the time being, Some jobs are Great/On the top (WAR, SAM, WHM), Some jobs are in the middle, (THF, MNK, DRK), and some jobs are just shit tier (SMN, RDM, DNC)

Those jobs in Shit tier need to be at least moved up to Mid Tier, I'm not asking them to be top tier, But mid tier. Buffing Summoner's BP:Wards will put them mid-tier, because at least then, Their buffs would be on par or comparible to other alternatives, making them not a "Well, They can do it all, but worse", but a "They seem about equal, So either or is fine". BP's are stiffed to 45 second recast, Stratagems for SCH/SCH Are on a tighter recast too. In a way, the balance system is already in place, Some of the BP's just need to be a tad more potent.

Even making Titan't stoneskin head up to about 300~ Would be a good middle ground. The Phalanx from Diabolos is what i really want buffed, and maybe some of Carbuncle's BPs.


Stratagems are on 48seconds recast after level 90.
I wish it were 30 at level 99! :(
I'd be fine with 48 seconds and 6 charges too probably.

How many charges do you have, was it 4 or 5?


The same thing could be said about Scholar and Embrava, and back in the days for COR and Wild Card and overall many jobs have been in such a situation over the years.
At least SMN does have a reason for other people to invite them to PTs.
What should jobs like PUP or BST say in that regard? And other jobs as well.
SMN's situation may not be as good as other jobs, but it's not as bad as others either.

You probably talked about this piece by piece, So I want to say I spelled this bellow, Its not "Whine about SCH Day" or "Whine about COR Day", its more "Whine about SMN" Day in this thread... Just because there's more than 1 job in the Shit Tier category doesn't mean it needs to stay there to keep the other shit tier jobs company.

They all need work!


Also, SMN is still a powerful job when stacked together. Think about how many things can an Alliance of 18SMNs do if they want, but even less. Look at the new Limbus bosses, currently one of the easiest/mostefficient strategy is to spam SMNs at it.

I think an Alliance of Most pet jobs can do what SMN can do, But I'd bet a BST alliance could do it better too. Even so, a Balanced Alliance of WARs and WHMs will do it better and quicker. That argument is really kinda lame, the only thing an Alliance of SMNs is good for is disposable pets, There's no fight that only an alliance of Summoner's can do, and thats where your argument would have water, if there were fights only SMNs could accomplish, But there aren't.

Any fight an Alliance of SMN's can do, An Alliance of a balance party can do better. Though I see your general point, Its just not a solid one.


Making SMN too powerful risks making SMN-stacking perhaps *too efficient*.
I'm sure SE knows this and that's why it's reluctant to buff SMN.

SMN's probably Is that it suffers from RDM Syndrome, Which you are diagnosing it with too, The fear that "If we do anything, It'll break the game" - Therefor, the job is stuck in mediocrity because of the fear it could break it. Avatars aren't horrible, and the job isn't useless per say, Its just its very subpar in all fields.

My suggestion isn't really, i guess, to buff it on par with WAR, but the whole "hateless DD" thing has really went out the window around 2007, the job needs some juice, and not just new toys that will ultimately add nothing to the job (I know I'm condemning them before i get them... but I'm not excited for Cait sith as he was described as Carbuncle 2)


IN SPITE OF THIS I think some BPs should be fixed, like I mentioned above, and I also think the following things should be fixed
BP recast times: 45 is too much, allow us to stack gear up to 30 seconds please. We'd still be bound by MP limits, seeing what the average MP cost for a BP is, I think it would be a good balancment making the job more efficient without making it "too strong"
Fix the range of Avatar's Favour. AF is currently a very underestimated and powerful buff, but with such a short range it's hard to make good use of it, so almost nobody does which is a shame. "Potency" is fine as it is for most buffs, but something needs to be done about the range imho


And I can agree with most if not all of this. However, I can personally say I'm not a fan of Avatar's Favor... Its a great buff, ad you're right, underestimated, I just wish it didn't have to nerf the summoner.

BRD Songs don't nerf the BRD
COR Rolls don't nerf the COR

I know its not a perfect comparison, but neither of them have to keep an avatar out, draining their resources, and Limiting their BP Choices, While actually having to build up buff potency to make it useful.

I just think there's far too many restrictions on Avatar's favor, I'd be happy just with the removal of the Pet Nerf to Damage, Since we already lack enough of that.

[Zhronne]

Even making Titan't stoneskin head up to about 300~ Would be a good middle ground. The Phalanx from Diabolos is what i really want buffed, and maybe some of Carbuncle's BPs.
I agree with that. Diabolos and Carbuncle Ward BPs need buffing, so does Earthen Ward.



How many charges do you have, was it 4 or 5?
Last update to stratagems comes at level 90. 5 charges, 48 seconds recast.
I was hoping for a new update at level 99 but alas nothing changed.
48 seconds is such a strange timer, makes the OCD in me unsatisfied! :P



Any fight an Alliance of SMN's can do, An Alliance of a balance party can do better. Though I see your general point, Its just not a solid one.
I see what you mean there.
About army of BSTs being better than SMN uh... I dunno. Guess it depends on the fight. BST pets are stronger as in they have more HP/defense/stats, but you also consume items which have a gil cost to summon them and to heal them, with SMN you just use a rechargeable resource (MP) to summon them as much as you want. Also, BP Rage from Avatars are usually much more powerful and spammable than Pet's TP moves.
I guess it depends on the kind of mob you're fighting of course, but overall I can agree with your statement.
I don't agree with the "anything an army of SMN can do, a normal alliance can do better". It's true for some fights, maybe the majority of fights, but it's not true for the kind of fights I was thinking of, for example the two new Limbus fights, where a small PTs of SMN has it much easier than a small (or even larger) pt with a normal setup.
Those mobs have very powerful AoE (or insta-death) which can be really dangerous for players or for pets, while SMNs do not have to worry about sacrificing their avatars.



And I can agree with most if not all of this. However, I can personally say I'm not a fan of Avatar's Favor... Its a great buff, ad you're right, underestimated, I just wish it didn't have to nerf the summoner.

BRD Songs don't nerf the BRD
COR Rolls don't nerf the COR

I know its not a perfect comparison, but neither of them have to keep an avatar out, draining their resources, and Limiting their BP Choices, While actually having to build up buff potency to make it useful.
Eh... it's hard to draw a balance line here.
I mean, Avatar's Favor needs to have a con, otherwise we would all keep it up 100% of the time, right?
It should be a situational thing.
Problem is that atm it's something NOBODY uses, despite the fact that in theory some of those buffs are pretty powerful. I think about Ramuh's critical rate or Ifrit's +24% DA, those are crazy buffs, up to the point it makes me wonder if those are real numbers or if someone played a nice trolling trick updating Wiki page.

AF was a good idea to promote among players a playstyle involving us to keep our avatars out instead of constantly summoning/dismissing our pets (which was the typical playstyle when they added AF), still *something* has to be done about it.
What? I have no clue. Increasing the range from 10yalms to 20yalms would be a good starting point I think.

As for the reduced stats on Avatar once you activate AF I think that honestly they have a lower impact than most people want to make it look like, or is it just me being completely wrong here?
Fighting less powerful stuff I hardly even notice it tbh, whereas on the tougher mobs of course you can clearly see it.

[Karbuncle]

I mean, Avatar's Favor needs to have a con, otherwise we would all keep it up 100% of the time, right?

I think the con would be, in most normal situations, You're going to have to chose 1 buff, Which forces you to keep out 1 Avatar, Which limits your BP Options, and You have to "Charge" The buff, And your Pet can be killed, meaning your buff goes away and you have to start from square one...

There's already plenty of horrific restrictions on Avatar's favor, The NErf to pet damage was uneeded :|

[Zhronne]

I think the con would be, in most normal situations, You're going to have to chose 1 buff, Which forces you to keep out 1 Avatar, Which limits your BP Options, and You have to "Charge" The buff, And your Pet can be killed, meaning your buff goes away and you have to start from square one...

There's already plenty of horrific restrictions on Avatar's favor, The NErf to pet damage was uneeded :|
A point of view I hadn't considered, but it's pretty valid.
Yeah, probably no reason to keep the avatar nerf.
Altough tbh I'd be more happy with 20 yalms range and avatar nerf, rather than no nerf and silly 10 yalms.

Maybe we should open a new thread but let me try to sum up Avatar's Favour
Reduces Perpetuation cost by -4 (at level 99)
Potency of the buffs goes up with normal tics, caps at ~1min 15secs
Doesn't work on pets (avatars included)
Range is 10yalms around Avatar
Reduces Avatar's MAB by 20 and Avatar's attack by ??



From this point of view, for a buff that's mainly meant to offer a "buffing stance", the biggest limit I see is the silly 10yalms range. On some mobs (a lot?) it's not even enough to reach all melee DDs if you keep your avatar engaged (because of hit box etc).
Yeah of course, DDs could "stack" on the avatar, but we all know that's not realistically going to happen.

My personal thoughts on the other parts are the following:
Reduced Perpetuation - Nice thing, but with all the -perp gear I have I would easily live without. I mean it's nice to have but it doesn't really have a huge impact on me
Reduced Mab - On lv99 content mobs you can see the difference. It's not huge maybe, but it's clearly there. On lower level content mobs it's not really a huge difference imho. Maybe because on some mobs you have a "surplus" of MAB? I dunno, someone maybe could explain the math out for me but on some lower level mobs I usually get almost identical BP results with AF up.
Reduced attack - I don't have a huge experience with physical BPs. Wasn't playing SMN back in the old lv75 PredatorClaws spam. But doesn't accuracy have a bigger impact than attack on PC? Well... I guess it depends on the amount of -att we get. If it's like -50 it would probably make a big difference

[nyheen]

i do like the idea of some kinda Charge system for the blood pack or.
least have each blood pack it own timer or lower time. Garuda example claw, Aero II etc, should not be sharing the same time for lvl 70 ones+ ^^;

[Jerbob]

With regards to Avatar's Favour - Is it not still true that the potency of the effect resets to half every time you use a blood pact? That was always a pretty killer concept for me. Depending on frequency of Ward usage and, as you all say, how often the avatar is defeated, the avatar's favour effect is going to be much weaker in practice than it is in theory, again limiting the usefulness. This is before having to restrict yourself to a single avatar...

I personally find the job ability to be atrociously designed. It's obvious that SE were trying to address the common complaint of not being able to keep avatars out in parties (though at level 50 it was really a bit late), but clearly the nerfbat swinging machine was set to overdrive when avatar's favour was created. I mean, really? A job ability which basically requires you to sit AFK in order to get the full effect...?

They need to separate the idea of an "aura buff" and the aim of making low level parties easier for summoners to work properly in. For the latter, just let Summoners rest when the avatar is summoned - problem solved. Now the perpetuation reduction bonus can be removed for avatar's favour, giving us a bit more wriggle room for something like this:


Extended range of aura so that back line jobs can be affected by an avatar in a combat position
Full power aura effect on all party members in range
Blood Pact use no longer reduces potency
Perpetuation cost no longer reduced
No penalty to Blood Pact: Rage use
Avatar's Favour effect is automatically removed if a different avatar is summoned


This allows back-line favour avatars to still participate in combat (increased aura radius), prevents the favour effect from decaying (also solving the avatar death >> weak favour issue), removes blood pact penaties but as a concequence locks the favour effect to your current avatar. Seeing as how the job ability is on a five minute timer I think this is fair.

Of course this immediately favours (no pun intended) avatars with useful wards and passable rage pacts that have a powerful aura - I'm thinking Ifrit and to a lesser extent maybe Ramuh with Shock Squall's introduction - but considering that most summoners are already boring and subscribe to the GARUDA ALL THE THINGS "style" of play this may not be a huge change.

With regards to ward pacts - I definitely disagree with the "less party members >> stronger effect" and single target ideas. Ward potency needs to be increased across the board, in accordance with skill level, for all the effects introduced below lv75 (excluding Hastega). As has been stated in this thread, I can cast a stronger Stoneskin (and even a stronger Phalanx) at level 99 from my subjob than avatars can provide. That's a little bit embarrasing. In particular:


Earthen Ward
Noctoshield
Dream Shroud (increased skill also "caps" effect potency reduction by time of day)
Ecliptic Howl and Growl (as above but for moon phase)
Rolling Thunder and Lightning Armour
Frost Armour
Shining and Glittering Ruby


In addition, Fenrir's new pact (the name escapes me) and Pavor Nocturnus are simply atrocious and need complete reworking.

[Zhronne]

With regards to Avatar's Favour - Is it not still true that the potency of the effect resets to half every time you use a blood pact?
Uhm... Quoting wikipedia:

The bonus is dependent on two factors: The time since the last Favor reset, and Summoning Magic skill.
Determining the time that Favor has been active is based upon the lowest time of the following three conditions:
1) Activating Avatar's Favor
2) Summoning an Avatar
3) Any Blood Pact.

Honestly it's the first time I read about it. Before I read it on Wiki I thought you were just giving wrong information, while instead it seems you are right...
Well yes, this is the main issue of the whole concept then, definitely, more than anything else.
Especially seeing as the initial values are pretty weak usually.
Meh...


I agree with everything else that you said.
Avatar's favour is a JA that was clearly planned when the game had quite different standards from nowadays (and tbh, it sucked even by those days' standards).
We should open a new thread and start spreading news about it in the community, hoping for a Community Manager to notice it and post some official information about our concerns.

But I agree imho in an order of importance theese are the things they should be working for SMN:
Fix/Rehaul Avatar's Favor
Fix the already mentioned BPs, they need to be rehauled/scalebetter
Work on the new avatars BPs, 2hrs and all the rest of what we said, including a possible increase of the -BP recast time cap (at least 40 seconds please? 30 would be the optimum)

[Mirage]

Would something like -20 accuracy be a decent tradeoff for avatar's favor? Idk, just throwing things out here.

[Zhronne]

A decent tradeoff for what? There already is a malus for avatars and it's currently -20mab and -?? attack. You suggest adding another -20 accuracy? Why? For what purpose? We're talking about making this JA better, not even worse than it already is >_>

[SpankWustler]

Scaling buff potency by the number of party members was a very weird request. Similarly, making any of Summoner's buffs single-target would be weird because of the huge recasts the job has. I feel all funny inside saying this, but I'm with the Development Bros 100% for just keeping Bloodpact: Wards as traditional AoEs.

Right now, Summoner is probably in the best place a pet job has ever been since people learned how to actually damage monsters.

Although, 95% of that usefulness comes from Perfect Defense and Shock Squall and maybe Earthen Armor in a group environment. In a solo or small pet-group environment, it's time to revisit 2006 with a Blood Pact: Rage every 45 seconds and buffs not even in it.

So even though the job is much more useful now, nothing has really changed about Summoner being barely affected by equipment compared to most jobs; and the mechanics behind Avatar's Favor, which seem relevant when talking about Summoner buffs, are still as weird and off-putting as somebody's grandpa in butt-less rubber pants.

[Mirage]

A decent tradeoff for what? There already is a malus for avatars and it's currently -20mab and -?? attack. You suggest adding another -20 accuracy? Why? For what purpose? We're talking about making this JA better, not even worse than it already is >_>

Instead of the damage reduction, silly.

[Dantedmc]

I mean, Avatar's Favor needs to have a con, otherwise we would all keep it up 100% of the time, right?


Why? look at afflatus: solace, no cons at all. I honestly feel AF should have just been a JT instead of JA (with no penalties of course). I think SMN needs a few changes to work better in a party.

General
-Lower the BP Cap to 12 seconds (-80%) in line with Fast Cast, Haste, and Recast caps
-Increase Avatar melee damage and possibly BP damage
-Enhance many of the ward BPs' potency

Favor Related
-Remove the negative penalties from avatar's favor
-Remove the charge up from favor, the favor should always be at full potency. My reasoning for is that it's one buff not 2+ like brd and cor.
-Change Titan's favor to pdt
-Change Fenrir' favor to mdt or mdb
-Increase the potency of Carby's favor and possibly Shiva's Favor

New Stances
-One new stance that increases BP damage
-One new stance that enhances Avatar's Favors in some way

I feel like these changes would further enhances SMN's roles as a buffer and magic DD.

[Jerbob]

Yes, the blood pact usage >> Avatar's Favour reset thing is insane. I'm fairly sure most summoners don't know about any drawbacks to the job ability, to be honest - so many seem to full time it for the perpetuation reduction.

With regards to the accuracy penalty, I don't think more penalties are the way forward here. Personally I already rage enough when my blood pacts deal <500 damage so this would be particularly irritating for me. Advovating avatar's favour as a support stance with reductions to offense is ostensibly fine (SE's glass-eatingly awful implementation notwithstanding) but the benefit and flexiblity must be very much there to compensate for that reduction in offense; I would say that before discussing specifics re: penalties a re-worked set of bonuses should be drawn up first.


...the mechanics behind Avatar's Favor, which seem relevant when talking about Summoner buffs, are still as weird and off-putting as somebody's grandpa in butt-less rubber pants.
This sums up my feelings so perfectly. Bravo.

As a side note, I think it would be worth keeping things as on topic as possible with regards to Ward effects. General SMN discussion is always a great idea, but with Okipuit specifically focusing on Wards I think this is the optimal time to get our thoughts on them across once and for all, and get them sorted out.

[Rakshaka]

Greetings!

With that said, there would not be any kind of trade-off when the effect is increased as the number of party members decreases. Similarly, there have also been requests to simply increase the effects of Blood Pacts as well as to change it into a single target effect. For the first request, the Blood Pact's effects has been set keeping similar spells in mind, so this aspect would need to be considered...

Noctoshield's potency increases until level 75, then stops. The same thing goes for other avatar buffs. These should be re-adjusted for the level 99 cap.

[Zhronne]

Instead of the damage reduction, silly.
Oh I see.
I dunno if it would be worse or better, but in all honesty as other users pointed out the main issues with Avatar's Favour are in the "reset potency every BP" mainly, and in the silly 10yalms range secondly.

The damage nerf is unwelcome and I'd love it to go away of course, but it's not as huge as someone wants it to look like. I'm talking about the mab one, can't really comment on the attack one since I don't even know the exact amount.
But really, they need to solve those two issues first, and then we can talk about what to do with the damage nerf, imho.

[Sargent]

I'm in favour of buffing the old Ward pacts- they need it. As was said, the whole scaling with party members thing is a bit what. I dunno who suggested it >.<. The useful newer Blood Pacts are fine. Thing's like Heavenward Howl will always be useless, so no point going into them.

Regarding Avatar's Favor, and similar ideas into an "stance" type ability... I had always hoped that SE would make an opposite if you like to Avatar's Favor. Maybe something along the lines of "reduces Blood Pact: Rage timer for increased perpetuation cost". That's what I think most people are crying out for, myself included. Would it break the job? Not really since you still have the MP pool, are using more MP through perpetuation and would be using Blood Pacts faster, meaning your MP gets depleted faster that way too. Even if it's -15 seconds, it's better then spike damage every 45 seconds. It wasn't mentioned, but before it is- damage dealt per Blood Pact does not need an increase. It's fine as it is.

Now onto Avatar's Favor... I personally don't use it, unless our healers are in real dire need of as much Refresh as possible. The 10' range is a bit... weak, but buffs are OK for situational use. You're not supposed to fulltime Avatar's Favor, it's just another buff option. Although I'd agree, the potency should not reset when you perform an offensive Blood Pact.

[Mefuki]

I can't think of a single post that asked for such an odd request as scaling buffs with party members. Maybe the reps should have a rule that once a post has reached a certain number of likes, it gets translated for the devs to see. Because as I see it, Karbuncle's post about updated buffs for SMN on the SMN forum was more or less spot on.

[Alkar]

SCH can AoE stoneskin but they also have their own limitations. (Light Arts has to be up, need to waste a strategem on Accession; recast is doubled with accession) also SMN is more versatile than SCH in terms of being able to AoE Stun, do considerable BP damage, Hastega, etc. So SMN isn't going to get any ridiculosuly strong enhancement bloodpacts(besides 2hr) since enhancing a party isnt the job's main focus(SMN is versatile, not a buff specialist like cors/brds). Usually if a job can fulfill multiple tasks/roles i.e SMN, the bufs they can use aren't the best. Yeah SCH has *slightly* less restrictions on AoE stoneskin but can they Hastega? Can they Stunga as well as Shocksquall? Can they do 1k+ damage to hard, magic resistant mobs? Can they AoE cure+remove status ailments simultaneously?

Both jobs are extremely versatile, one is simply much better at it than the other. Wasting a stratagem to turn something into AoE is no different than using a BP because both have roughly the same recast except SCH can stack them unlike SMN.
SCH can switch with 1 button, we need to Release an avatar, resummon another, wait for the casting time, position said avatar where we want it and fire off the BP. We cannot do that any of that in a quick and respnsive way unless we happen to be on the correct avatar (and if we are we're severely gimping our damage output).
If we're gonna argue that Summoner is not meant to buff so our weak buffs are fine then let's talk about damage.
1k damage every 45 seconds isn't good. True damage dealers can do a lot more than that in less time because not only do their Weapon Skills hit for more but their melee swings actually deal some sort of damage unlike our avatars.
Not to mention our BPs don't fire off instantly so that gives the mob all the time to oneshot our pet, stun it, sleep it, etc. wasting our only shot for those 45 seconds.
The job needs something to stand out or it'll be mediocre forever, having weak buffs and gimp damage output in the name of versatility isn't the correct way to go.
Summoners stopped at 75 for some reason, very little has come out of the cap increase and I really don't see how people can be fine with this. Gear is even a rare thing to see... we're always slapped on mage sets that have barely any use to us.