Relic and Empyrean jobs that can use them.

[Rezeak]

So SE said in a interview that Geo and Rune fencer will not be able to use Relics and Empyrean weapons.

Either way the issue as a whole.

Firstly DNC and SCH

These 2 jobs fit the lore of relic weapons massively so i really think at the least DNC should be able to use mandau and SCH should be able to use club or staff

Now PUP COR and BLU

All 3 Weapons wouldn't make any of the jobs overpowered but the gun would help COR alot when wildfire (it's prome source of DMG) isn't available either way i think BLU is a skilled enough swordsman to weild an Excalibur and COR gunman to weild Annihilator and PUP worth enough to wield the hand 2 hand.

Finally GEO and RUN

They definitely should have the option to wield empyrean the gsd emp and staff emp arn't ground breaking weapons so i see no reason why they shouldn't have emps

Then Relics well it depends w/ the above if BLU COR and PUP get access so should GEO and RUN

Honestly only having mythics as a final weapon is kinda sad :(


In summary my suggestion is this

There should a be a relic and empyrean for every job in the game

[Trisscar]

Most people would disagree with you. I'm one of them. I'm also a career Blue Mage and I can honestly say that we aren't missing anything by not being able to use Excalibur.

Doesn't matter anyhow, there's likely to be new relic or empyrean weapon level weapons in the new expansion.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Did you seriously just say because you think excal sucks none of the new jobs should be put on Relic?

[cidbahamut]

Most people would disagree with you. I'm one of them. I'm also a career Blue Mage and I can honestly say that we aren't missing anything by not being able to use Excalibur.

Doesn't matter anyhow, there's likely to be new relic or empyrean weapon level weapons in the new expansion.

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/002/063/arguecat.png

[Trisscar]

Did you seriously just say because you think excal sucks none of the new jobs should be put on Relic?

No, I didn't even imply that. I just think the jobs not already covered by relics don't need them.

Having said that, it would make sense to add Dancer and/or Scholar to existing relics as they were jobs known and in use during the time the relics were made in the storyline. Blue Mage, Puppetmaster, and Corsair, not so much so. Same with Runefencer and Geomancer.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Yea the lore excuse went out the window with Blu Pup and Cor having relic armor in Dynamis.

[FrankReynolds]

Yea the lore excuse went out the window with Blu Pup and Cor having relic armor in Dynamis.

But back then none of those jobs needed weapons. They were just that bad ass. j/k

[Trisscar]

Yea the lore excuse went out the window with Blu Pup and Cor having relic armor in Dynamis.

Yeah I know. Square has zero respect for established lore and consistency, but that's hardly an excuse to be adding Blue Mage, Puppetmaster or Corsair to the relic weapons.

[Vivik]

I don't see anything wrong with every job having access to E/M/R weapons.

[Trisscar]

I don't see anything wrong with every job having access to E/M/R weapons.

That's because there is nothing wrong with it, but what's the point? It's like a Puppetmaster complaining about not having Asuran Fists.

[saevel]

Yeah this is stupid. RNF (RNK) will be horribly gimped if it doesn't have access to some sort of legendary weapon. As it doesn't have emp access it won't have magian access either, so pretty much limited to AH weapons or Borealis.

Or to put it another way, without some sort of uber weapon, RNF is dead before it's even created. No amount of cosmetic flare will fix that.

[Rezeak]

I think the basic point is that 15 jobs in the game that can use R/M/E but 5 jobs that can't and soon 2 jobs that won't have access to emps which imo isn't really fair not having access to the same type of gear the other 20 have.

Weather or not if 1 job it will be useful it a flawed argument i mean your kinda saying "Ok cause i can't find a use for a relic on BLU so we don't need em even if PUP, COR or DNC could find access to relics helpful"

I guess my point is let all jobs be on an equal footing and i do know alot of BLUs would use Excalibur as a offhand weapon

[FrankReynolds]

Yeah this is stupid. RNF (RNK) will be horribly gimped if it doesn't have access to some sort of legendary weapon. As it doesn't have emp access it won't have magian access either, so pretty much limited to AH weapons or Borealis.

Or to put it another way, without some sort of uber weapon, RNF is dead before it's even created. No amount of cosmetic flare will fix that.

Pretty much like dancer when it came out. All you could get for it was shitty AH gear. Not even a blau dolch >.<

[Calamity]

As it doesn't have emp access it won't have magian access either, so pretty much limited to AH weapons or Borealis.

Yes, my biggest concern more than anything is that no emp seems to imply no magian weapons whatsoever. That is pretty damning.

[Kristal]

Yes, my biggest concern more than anything is that no emp seems to imply no magian weapons whatsoever. That is pretty damning.

The only implication is that they cannot use emp weapons. RDM cannot use emp staff either, but they CAN use magian staves. (Despite lacking the ability to complete staff trials.)

That doesn't even have to be a problem if SE adds weapons uniquely fit for GEO/RNK.

[saevel]

The only implication is that they cannot use emp weapons. RDM cannot use emp staff either, but they CAN use magian staves. (Despite lacking the ability to complete staff trials.)

That doesn't even have to be a problem if SE adds weapons uniquely fit for GEO/RNK.

Big issues, huge issues, ginormous continental size issues.

This deals with GS specifically. Rag is nice and all but what's more important is that it won't get the OaT GSWD which is the next best thing to a Rag. The OaT line is in the EXACT same category as the Emp line, Trial #216 to be exact. Without that RNF (RNK) will be gimp on damage output. At best RNF will tank the same things PLD tanks (I'll let your imagination figure that out), at worst it'll be tanking what NIN's tank. This isn't a "support job" like BRD / COR / SCH / SMN nor is it a healing job like WHM thus it will be evaluated on it's damage output potential. No Trial #216 access and no Rag means it's dead weight and best replaced by a WAR/SAM/MNK/DRK/DRG and possibly a THF/NIN/BLU.

Like I said, no amount of "oh look shiny" will fix the core mechanics of this game.

[wish12oz]

I hate it when I agree with Saevel, but he's completely right, if Rune Fencer doesn't get a good weapon (that doesnt require 30k alexandrite) and Resolution, it's a dead job before it even gets added.

[Neisan_Quetz]

That and it looks like they're going to have the same problem as 2h Prd/DRG, they'll either have to /war for zerk and lose Hasso or /sam and have lower attack over all.

[0nionKn1ght]

Yea the lore excuse went out the window with Blu Pup and Cor having relic armor in Dynamis.

Lore can never be the chain down factor in any game to stop things remaining fair. Imagine how annoying it would be to turn up to Dynamis runs (pre solo nerf) only to be told you aren't ever getting anything for your job.

Lore is always a considered factor, but never the defining one. Don't use it as a reason or an excuse, just respect it when possible.

[Calamity]

I hate it when I agree with Saevel, but he's completely right, if Rune Fencer doesn't get a good weapon (that doesnt require 30k alexandrite) and Resolution, it's a dead job before it even gets added.

Well, I'm not completely sure if this will be true. They did mention it's intended to be a tank job more than a DD job, so even without max dd potential it could still be a good job. We have no idea what kinds of tools and potential it's going to have. Even so, I'm still not happy at the concept of it being shorted on magian trials, even if it's just 1 particular line. And as far as resolution, I see no reason to believe that they won't have it. It has nothing to do with lore and they are stated to be GS masters. So with Last Stand thief's as my witness, I think we're safe in this regard.

[FrankReynolds]

Whats a tank?

[Neisan_Quetz]

They did say they wanted RNF to deal more damage than Prd, I hope they don't mean 2h bonus...

[Nala]

They did mention they intended it to be a "magic tank" (insert jackie chan pic here) or rather that is their vision for RNF, idk how any job can beat out an aegis PLD in that respect however...

As we all may be aware the dev team vision of things vs reality don't always collide the way either of us hope.

[Demon6324236]

idk how any job can beat out an aegis PLD in that respect however...

1 word, Reflect, the only possible way I see it happening...

[Nala]

honestly i just hope they have DD potential, the concept of tanking in any event that matters is dead due to emity issues and OMGWTFBBQ AoE (albeit toned down VW a bit) make having a designated damage sponge (or avoider) impractical and has been a long time since it was a viable strategy hence why most events are zerg fests.

[FrankReynolds]

1 word, Reflect, the only possible way I see it happening...

Or maybe an Innate ability to absorb party damage? Sort of a passive tank in that they don't hold hate, but the still take the magic damage? I dunno...

[Waldrich]

Most people would disagree with you. I'm one of them. I'm also a career Blue Mage and I can honestly say that we aren't missing anything by not being able to use Excalibur.

Doesn't matter anyhow, there's likely to be new relic or empyrean weapon level weapons in the new expansion.


No, I didn't even imply that. I just think the jobs not already covered by relics don't need them.

Having said that, it would make sense to add Dancer and/or Scholar to existing relics as they were jobs known and in use during the time the relics were made in the storyline. Blue Mage, Puppetmaster, and Corsair, not so much so. Same with Runefencer and Geomancer.


Yeah I know. Square has zero respect for established lore and consistency, but that's hardly an excuse to be adding Blue Mage, Puppetmaster or Corsair to the relic weapons.

Rate Down, Rate Down, Rate Down!!!

SE can add more Empyrean Weapons, Relic Weapons and Mythic Weapons.

[Camate]

Hey everyone!

I made a post related to your question about relic and empyrean weapons here (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/25931-Gamer-Escape-Interviews-FFXI-Dev-Team-Post-VanaFest-2012?p=343642&viewfull=1#post343642). :)

[Nala]

for the love of... what balance? you use this word so damn often so very very damn often but in the capacity it is blatantly smeared in our face covered in its deficated glory is not the proper use of the term, what part of this game is balanced atm? you are adding 2 new jobs into a hoshposh mix where their role is already covered by 2-3 others, in order for them to be viable they need to accel as is the truth with all the jobs really, how many jobs have you left in utter neglect.

How many game mechanics need addressing still to even be considered viable much less "balanced?" how many quality of life issues have you been ignoring because (insert limitations here)

[Kitkat]

I fail to see how a secondary tank job will become unbalanced when pld is on almace and on Emp gsword yet it is a....wait for it.....tank job! If anything by excluding these jobs from emp/relic and instead just opting to give them a "mythic type" weapon developers are already on the path to failure by setting up the jobs so they can't keep up. Even with these weapons pld can't keep hate because of enmity cap issues, how the hell do you expect a secondary tank to even try to hold a shred of hate with a "mythic type" weapon >.>

We've already heard that RUN is meant to be a secondary tank that won't hold comparable damage with DD because of the nature of job it is being built for. It'll use Runes to increase offensive and defensive capabilities.....but guess what? A pld with no output is about as likely to tank using its offensive/defensive abilities as a naked DD is to take hate off a geared DD. So unless this "mythic type" weapon has aftermath/ws similar in output to emp all I can say is you're all smoking crack for not just giving them access to existing weapons and creating a "mythic type" weapon.

Camate, you sir, I stab in the toe....the big one...and little one, so that which ever way you walk you remember the dissatisfaction this post has created this day.

[ManaKing]

Damage doesn't have to be weapon dependent. A good list of magic and job abilities could easily replace the need for prestige weapons. It really depends on how they develop Rune Fencer. I agree that they have left too many questions unanswered to make most of us happy and that they really should share more, but adding another Ragnarok/Resolution Job really wouldn't add anything for diversity. That's already been done.

[Kitkat]

They make it sound akin to enhancing magic (and stated the job will used mp with access to such) in which previous attempts to alter damage by giving substitute elemental damage was subject to significant draw backs when fighting harder content (not to mention the failure of Tier II/Enlight/Endark spells that proc on first hit only or get weaker with each hit etc......). I speak mainly of rdm's substitute damage via enspells on this, and the fact even with capped enhancing it is subject to resistances, MDB, and -MDT. So unless these rune abilities some how push through that and give an additional, and significant, enmity boost at the same time, I hardly see any "mythic type" weapon filling in the otherwise huge gap in hate that will be left in the wake. DD's now can pump out numbers that put older content to shame (even exceptionally well geared DD rarely broke 3k let alone averaged it). You're only fooling yourself if you think a tank job will be able to tank well using abilities alone.

I get ahead of myself though, you are right that too little is known about the job. Either way though I find this answer is lacking, laughable, and if anything has been taught to us over the years about Mythic weapons, it is that a vast majority of them can't really hold much merit save a small few. SE has dissapointed in the past, on multiple occasions, and I have a feeling they will do it again if they don't at least take into account just how quickly enmity caps. Either they better have a new enmity system in the making or this new "tank job" of theirs is going to fall flat on its face. I for one would rather that not happen.

[Calamity]

Really is the lack of emps such a big deal? If they were on emps, the seemingly obvious ones seem to be almace and caladbolg for rune fencer, and idk, probably club for geo. Starting with rune, ok, if they were to end up being a 1 handed sword specialist, lacking Almace and CDC could hurt a lot, but as they're using GS, they will more than likely have Resolution, effectively trumping the damage potential of CDC. So focusing on GS now, Caladbolg, honestly when is the last time Caladbolg was relevant? It was a nice GS in it's day, but these days there are better choices, mostly thanks to Resolution.

Next up geo. Ok, just assuming they get club... it's club. Who cares. But either way, I can't picture geo doing much meleeing. It strikes me as being as much about meleeing as brd, especially when the entire nature of the job seems to revolve around standing in the correct spot.

So again, while the reasoning they give is extremely stupid and faulty, is lacking emps really so terrible?

[Kitkat]

I'm more so worried about the disproportion of hate utility due to the lack of damage output. I know SE has already stated they won't be on par with true DD jobs, but it seems at this point it is going to be entirely disproportionate and lacking unless they have a type of weapon similar in potential. They can give the job the weapon or similar to weapon without giving it extreme access to JA that put it on the same level as true DD. They have already proven this with several existing jobs as it stands.

So the issue isn't the lack of emp/relic so much as people worrying that if the "mythic type" weapon holds to the same nature of mythic weapons it won't even hold a candle remotely bright enough to help balance the the otherwise totally broken enmity system as of now. Pld got access to sword/Shield combos that allow it to gain enmity to an extent through melee. While in capped enmity situations this becomes less important, if SE can possibly fix some of the issues with enmity as well (like giving tanks the ability to have higher enmity caps than melee/mages) it won't necessarily leave this new tank in a good standing if it can't build/keep hate in the first place through VE and CE means.

tl;dr: This is more an issue of enmity generation for the new tank job than it is about DD potential by saying that having sufficient DD output to at least help redirect when needed is the primary concern.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Really is the lack of emps such a big deal? If they were on emps, the seemingly obvious ones seem to be almace and caladbolg for rune fencer, and idk, probably club for geo. Starting with rune, ok, if they were to end up being a 1 handed sword specialist, lacking Almace and CDC could hurt a lot, but as they're using GS, they will more than likely have Resolution, effectively trumping the damage potential of CDC. So focusing on GS now, Caladbolg, honestly when is the last time Caladbolg was relevant? It was a nice GS in it's day, but these days there are better choices, mostly thanks to Resolution.

Next up geo. Ok, just assuming they get club... it's club. Who cares. But either way, I can't picture geo doing much meleeing. It strikes me as being as much about meleeing as brd, especially when the entire nature of the job seems to revolve around standing in the correct spot.

So again, while the reasoning they give is extremely stupid and faulty, is lacking emps really so terrible?

Except Rune won't be able to use any better choices that we currently have for Reso by not being able to use Calad, since OAT is on the same Magian Path and SE just stated they won't get Relic. That means at best they would get Str Magian GS.

Unless you're seriously going to suggest every RNF makes mythic...

[Calamity]

Except Rune won't be able to use any better choices that we currently have for Reso by not being able to use Calad, since OAT is on the same Magian Path and SE just stated they won't get Relic. That means at best they would get Str Magian GS.

Unless you're seriously going to suggest every RNF makes mythic...

It's far too early to say that. We don't know what kinds of weapons will become available with the new expansion.

[0nionKn1ght]

Again, a case of asking for a response, getting the one they have, and then flipping out and getting abusive at the CS rep giving you the response.

I work in CS myself for a video game, and deal with this situation daily. You don't want the answer, you want to provide your argument over an answer you don't even want to hear, and then get abusive because you don't like the answer you already knew you were going to get, just because your childish little mind wants to hurl some abuse at someone you know full well can't react back to you.

I agree, the responses are not always the answer that you might expect, but that doesn't give you the excuse to get abusive about it. The problem with standing out against this attitude is you get the "omg you white knight" and "omg fanboy" replies, which ironically come from the people with the foul attitudes.

I love FF games, I have my problems with FF games, but always air them with respect and dignity, and I NEVER resort to foul language to try to get a point across when speaking with any realm of customer support, nor do I abuse someone who is just doing exactly what you asked of them. Sadly this is an opinion usually only shared by people on the other side of the curtain, as the rest of the world is so damn self entitled, they think that they not only deserve everything on a stick, but yesterday, and dipped in caramel coated ball massagers. Feedback is the greatest thing any player can do for a game, but this does not EVER give you the excuse to belittle and abuse someone about it. You are entitled to nothing, you get what you pay for each month, and everything else is a bonus. Request stuff, thats fine, suggest stuff, thats great, but expect and demand. Shut up.

Honestly you people have so many problems, the likes of which only a paid professional can solve.

I don't care for your responses to my point, the fact is that most of you are completely vile and you reassure yourselves by thinking you are right in doing so, which means it is going to be a never ending argument. When did gamers get to be such vile little warts on society? We used to be passionate, intelligent, fun loving people with a single goal of playing games. Now the gamer community at large is a bunch of sandy lady parted children with foul mouths and terrible attitudes.

Your parents really did a terrible job if you have turned out to think that this kind of attitude is acceptable, and don't bother trying to argue this point, because it is an observation of the times, and I don't care to listen to your responses to it.

[Komori]

Where did SE by saying the jobs won't be on empyrean and relic weapons say they won't be able to specifically do physical magian trials? I would think it just means they're not on Calad and Almace etc. specifically.

Not that it bars them from ever doing a physical trial. If I've missed the part where they've said specifically that they will be unable to use any form of physical magian then I'm sorry. But it kind of just seems like people are jumping the gun too early on this one. The jobs are a year away and are still in development and SE themselves are still deciding on where all their going to go with it, so I wouldn't be getting bent out of shape this soon.

You all are gonna end up making yourselves gray, far too early.

[Neisan_Quetz]

If you mean DA/OaT paths those are connected to the Empyrean Paths (the only jobs that can use the Physical weapons also use the Empyrean weapon). Elemental trials are seperate from those trials.

[Komori]

I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult to bar them from the empyrean but add them to the physical trial weapons?

[Neisan_Quetz]

There is no case of jobs being barred from specific trials. I don't see it happening.

They should just give RNF access to Caladbolg in the first place, I mean FFS even Paladin can use it...

[katiekat]

i would just like to point out that if DNC had mandau it would be insanely broken. while THF has a higher dagger skill dnc gets more attacks, haste samba, built in duel weald, and the ability to sub SAM and get 100tp every 30-3minit's with reverse flerish and meditate (yes i know meditate is only 60tp for /sub, also dnc would get more store TP) the damage output would become insane.

i love dnc and use it as much as i can but am not so stupid as to realis that se new what they were doing when they did not give DNC mandau.

what has me wearyed is this empys arnt hard to make they just take time same as relics. mythics are just insane and i have respect foranyone that has one, but sum thing tells me the new weapons will be along the lines of mythic to make and if there not the "epean" crowd will cry that it is to easy to get.


as for gamers attitudes it happened when gaming became mane stream as well as with the internet.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Stopped reading at sub sam

[katiekat]

Stopped reading at sub sam

I'm sorry i must have missed the memo that said /SAM is a bad sub job for dnc

but it is nice to know that your so shallow as to invalidate sum thing sum one says based off a /job they use.
just so you know most of the time i go /ninja for tanking but if i am going as a nun tank and outside of abyssea will go /SAM for the store TP and meditate am sorry if your aleat knows is bent out of shape because i don't play a job how you feel it must be..

[Neisan_Quetz]

Yes, you did miss a lot of memos.

[katiekat]

Yes, you did miss a lot of memos.

i'm sorry for snapping at you i dislike the attitude you and others take tords sum players that if they do not play how you feal they should that means anything they say is wrong. i did not say you should main time /SAM but /SAM is a possible sub for sertin things on DNC. it also aggravated me because your post was meant to antagonist me as you did not have to post it but did just to get my fir up. but the snarky post i made in replay was rood and uncalled for and i aplagise for it.

[0nionKn1ght]

i'm sorry for snapping at you i dislike the attitude you and others take tords sum players that if they do not play how you feal they should that means anything they say is wrong. i did not say you should main time /SAM but /SAM is a possible sub for sertin things on DNC. it also aggravated me because your post was meant to antagonist me as you did not have to post it but did just to get my fir up. but the snarky post i made in replay was rood and uncalled for and i aplagise for it.

Check his post history, not worth arguing with people like that.

[katiekat]

what pisses me off is my hole point has been side tracked now.

[Milva]

i'm sorry for snapping at you i dislike the attitude you and others take tords sum players that if they do not play how you feal they should that means anything they say is wrong. i did not say you should main time /SAM but /SAM is a possible sub for sertin things on DNC. it also aggravated me because your post was meant to antagonist me as you did not have to post it but did just to get my fir up. but the snarky post i made in replay was rood and uncalled for and i aplagise for it.
Neisan_Quetz Has probably had in mind /WAR when he criticized your preference for DNC/SAM. It is true that at lv80-85 many DNCs used to /SAM as it offered a good boost to TP gain, but since getting Dual Wield IV, Reverse Flourish=100TP and augmented Saber Dance, going /WAR gives you better damage potential than /SAM: Double Attack (+10%, active also during weapon skills, this also translates to more TP from extra swings), Berserk, Warcry, Agressor and Provoke. /SAM offers miniscule sTP and Meditate/Sekkanoki every 5min. You can effectively use Presto->Reverse flourish->self-SkillChain more often than that already.

[katiekat]

Neisan_Quetz Has probably had in mind /WAR when he criticized your preference for DNC/SAM. It is true that at lv80-85 many DNCs used to /SAM as it offered a good boost to TP gain, but since getting Dual Wield IV, Reverse Flourish=100TP and augmented Saber Dance, going /WAR gives you better damage potential than /SAM: Double Attack (+10%, active also during weapon skills, this also translates to more TP from extra swings), Berserk, Warcry, Agressor and Provoke. /SAM offers miniscule sTP and Meditate/Sekkanoki every 5min. You can effectively use Presto->Reverse flourish->self-SkillChain more often than that already.

oh i know its not a ideal sub i was just pointing out tbh am not sure why i said it as i ohmost always go /nin on dnc but to reiterate my earlier point with out the SAM part.

i would just like to point out that if DNC had mandau it would be insanely broken. while THF has a higher dagger skill dnc gets more attacks, haste samba, built in duel weald, as well as there job ability's witch wood lead to there damage output becoming "insane.

love dnc and use it as much as i can but am not so stupid as to realis that se new what they were doing when they did not give DNC mandau.

what has me wearyed is this empys arnt hard to make they just take time same as relics. mythics are just insane and i have respect foranyone that has one, but sum thing tells me the new weapons will be along the lines of mythic to make and if there not the "epean" crowd will cry that it is to easy to get.


as for gamers attitudes it happened when gaming became mane stream as well as with the internet.

[Dawnn]

i would just like to point out that if DNC had mandau it would be insanely broken. while THF has a higher dagger skill dnc gets more attacks, haste samba, built in duel weald, and the ability to sub SAM and get 100tp every 30-3minit's with reverse flerish and meditate (yes i know meditate is only 60tp for /sub, also dnc would get more store TP) the damage output would become insane.

i love dnc and use it as much as i can but am not so stupid as to realis that se new what they were doing when they did not give DNC mandau.

what has me wearyed is this empys arnt hard to make they just take time same as relics. mythics are just insane and i have respect foranyone that has one, but sum thing tells me the new weapons will be along the lines of mythic to make and if there not the "epean" crowd will cry that it is to easy to get.


as for gamers attitudes it happened when gaming became mane stream as well as with the internet.

Mandau for dancer wouldn't make it broken WHATSOEVER. Sure maybe in abyssea it would pump up its damage a little more, but thats pretty much the only area where it would have that big of an effect. Level correction and the simple fact that it is a one handed weapon constantly hold dancer hostage. On voidwatch it would hardly be different than twash/thokcha. Ukon wars will still deal more damage, rag dark knights will still do more. Abyssea is fairly dead at the moment, dancer really isn't taken into Neo-Nyzul, and dancer at best does more damage than a mediocre war or sam in voidwatch. The problem doesn't lie within the weapon itself, but rather the way damage is calculated.

[Lienn]

I agree with the players that complained about not being able to equip relic and/or empyrean weapons. IMO it's still time to update the jobs that can equip relic and, when new jobs come out, update again for them.

AFs were updated in Dynamis...why not the weapons?

[Nala]

Neisan_Quetz Has probably had in mind /WAR when he criticized your preference for DNC/SAM. It is true that at lv80-85 many DNCs used to /SAM as it offered a good boost to TP gain, but since getting Dual Wield IV, Reverse Flourish=100TP and augmented Saber Dance, going /WAR gives you better damage potential than /SAM: Double Attack (+10%, active also during weapon skills, this also translates to more TP from extra swings), Berserk, Warcry, Agressor and Provoke. /SAM offers miniscule sTP and Meditate/Sekkanoki every 5min. You can effectively use Presto->Reverse flourish->self-SkillChain more often than that already.

Just to point out that DA from saber dance does not stack with the trait, that said war is still a superior sub job in terms of damage dealing for a DNC.

Also one more point to consider due to the old DW nerf back in the day, it greatly reduces the utility of STP for DW, not that it is useless but just not as practical.

[Winrie]

I heavily disagree with relics having dnc ect plastered on them, you have job specific mythics and empyrean weapons, most being superior, all this kill the uniqueness of everything for everyone is a drag lol. I agree with rune fencer getting an empy and a mythic but not relics, And not relics for other jobs as well, quite honestly with how easy it is to lvl a job to 99, if you want a mandau then level thf and make one, if you want a ragnarok level dark knight, not every job needs to be Plastered on every item lol.

[Damane]

I heavily disagree with relics having dnc ect plastered on them, you have job specific mythics and empyrean weapons, most being superior, all this kill the uniqueness of everything for everyone is a drag lol. I agree with rune fencer getting an empy and a mythic but not relics, And not relics for other jobs as well, quite honestly with how easy it is to lvl a job to 99, if you want a mandau then level thf and make one, if you want a ragnarok level dark knight, not every job needs to be Plastered on every item lol.

its not about uniquness, its about haveing access to the same "things" and evening the level field. I would agree with you IF Relics were job SPECIFIC like Mythics were, but allas they are not! They have multiple jobs clustered on them. Giving the remaining 5 jobs (and the 2 new upcomeing jobs) access to them would even the Field.

The same applied back then to gear selection when the new jobs were added.
PUP had no sky gear they coul access (no abjuration, no genbus suzakus etc gear)
COR was neither on homam nor on the sky god gear set (this got fixed 5 years too late with the addition of neo-limbus and the murzim set)
SCH DNC were totally left out of Salvage, Limbus (this was again fixed with neo-limbus 5 years too late!), Abjurations, kings gear etc.

If SE adds RNF and GEO to none of existing rare/ex gearsets from endgame (voidwatch, legion, sky etc etc) and doesnt add the jobs to relic and/or empy weapons, you might as well just delete them... Especially if they get no access to any form of empy or relic weapon.

[Lienn]

I guess it would be a matter of respect with the players' effort to allow the older weapons usage. An example is to have a GS with physical dmg taken- and not being able to equip on rune fencer because SE decided that the new jobs would have no access to trial of magians stuff since they lead to empy weapons.

IMO they should generalize the most they can the trials (like adding, as example, WAR and rune fencer in furure at GS...pretty much expanding each weapon to all classes that can use the merit WS of that weapon) and then having job specialization trials, like adding an extra trial that would, as example, would split GS eph trials into caladbolg (PLD/DRK) path and a new one for WAR and rune fencer, but leaving elemental and WS paths generic.

[saevel]

I guess it would be a matter of respect with the players' effort to allow the older weapons usage. An example is to have a GS with physical dmg taken- and not being able to equip on rune fencer because SE decided that the new jobs would have no access to trial of magians stuff since they lead to empy weapons.

IMO they should generalize the most they can the trials (like adding, as example, WAR and rune fencer in furure at GS...pretty much expanding each weapon to all classes that can use the merit WS of that weapon) and then having job specialization trials, like adding an extra trial that would, as example, would split GS eph trials into caladbolg (PLD/DRK) path and a new one for WAR and rune fencer, but leaving elemental and WS paths generic.

I've never seen them split trials like that. Look at the base trial, that's what determines where it goes.

Honestly SE just needs to get off their high horse with weapons / weapon skills. Put the newer jobs on relics, open all weapon skills to "if you have the skill you can use it". Individual weapon rank along with gear will determine which weapon is good for which job.

[Lienn]

I've never seen them split trials like that. Look at the base trial, that's what determines where it goes.

Honestly SE just needs to get off their high horse with weapons / weapon skills. Put the newer jobs on relics, open all weapon skills to "if you have the skill you can use it". Individual weapon rank along with gear will determine which weapon is good for which job.

Indeed. As I said, if a job can use the merit WS it should be able to equip the respective relic/empy weapon. The skill level alone is enough of balancing for weapons.

[Demon6324236]

Well~ kinda... Staff is special in the respect, not sure about other weapons... Physical staff trials are BLM/SMN/SCH only while elemental trials are WHM/BLM/RDM/BRD/SMN/SCH. Then again Staff trials are all together unique from any other trial types so idk, but it does in fact exist.

[Neisan_Quetz]

The physical and elemental trials are separate branches that's why, for staff physical starts with Trial 776 and forms Shillelagh, Elemental starts with 790 and becomes Teiwaz (all of them can use crook, as soon as you complete 776 only blm/smn/sch can use the weapon).

[Demon6324236]

Right, well it wouldn't exactly fix the entire problem but at least putting Rune on elemental trials would be a start. If nothing else they are meant to be a tank, and it would give them access to the potentially needed PDT/MDB Great Swords along with a STR GS for DDing. Like I said, not a fix, but a start.

[Nala]

Little off topic but any one know if there is a similar thread on the japanese side of the forums, curious if their of like mind on expanding access if so.

[Alistaire]

Yeah this is stupid. RNF (RNK) will be horribly gimped if it doesn't have access to some sort of legendary weapon. As it doesn't have emp access it won't have magian access either, so pretty much limited to AH weapons or Borealis.

Or to put it another way, without some sort of uber weapon, RNF is dead before it's even created. No amount of cosmetic flare will fix that.

And unless mythics become suddenly 4x easier to get (not just a little easier, I mean exactly 25% the effort/cost), then you're absolutely right.

This is a wonderful opportunity for SE to learn from their mistake of not including all jobs on appropriate relic weapons. The fact they haven't learned that and are making it even worse by not including these new jobs on empyrean weapons is just another thing adding up to the lack of faith that a full expansion will bring any new players to this game. If this expansion comes out and it's on par with how horribly SE has been listening to players lately, you might as well not even make it and close up servers.

Edit: ok close up servers is a bit too harsh. obviously I still enjoy the game enough to play it but the perfect analogy for FFXI is from Seinfeld. SE is the soup nazi. Great product you can't really get elsewhere, but the worst attitude/customer service you could possibly imagine. And I'm just one that will play till the game's done regardless of how horribly SE is managing it. Doesn't mean I (or anyone) should be quiet about telling SE how horribly they're managing it.

[Nala]

Considering how they always profess balance, it seems terribly unbalanced that most jobs get relics, nearly every job gets an empyrean, and all jobs get a mythic but because the job was added after the initial release of relics and empyrean they are SOL.

If they want to profess a lore stand point the fact that mythic were (/are going to be) added to newer jobs after the fact make even less sense.

[Demon6324236]

I think balance is almost never a real reason for them. Its just your typical fall back response for things. With alot of people the word "because" is their response when they don't want to answer something or cant be bothered. With SE its "balance", even when what is being asked for, or denied, has nothing to do with balance or even worse, its unbalanced! Like right now, no balance involved in this, in fact if anything its unbalanced by limiting the options of potentially powerful weapons for jobs released at a later date.

We are not stupid players, we are smart, if we weren't we would have never found out half of the things we know about this game that SE never bothered to tell us in the 1st place. But for some reason we are never really explained why things can not be done, I would rather a somewhat lengthy response from a rep explaining what would be offset with Relics/Emps being added to these jobs, instead of just balance and leaving it at that.

Another word they like to use as a fall back seems to be "congestion" because when an event is limited to being a time sink what do we get as reasoning? Its to limit congestion, something we don't actually see in any events. The only event that could be considered congested is Abyssea, which is the most open of them all!

[Alistaire]

Check his post history, not worth arguing with people like that.

Especially when you're wrong.

[saevel]

Remember SE's definition of "Balance" isn't about how strong a job is in relation to others but how much time is required to accomplish content. From their point of view, being able to acquire the gear / legendary weapon for recently released jobs in a matter of months is "unbalanced", they want you to spend a year or three on that job. Expect huge walls to be implemented to the acquisition of whatever gear they release for RNF / GEO, they want you to take forever to acquire the shinys.

Honestly SE just needs to get over it's own case of Evil Game Master, it's not US vs THEM.

[scaevola]

Nothing to really add, other than that I am a player who is acutely aware of just how short ALL of these weapons fall in a cost/benefit analysis and was never really motivated to do any of them (I literally only finished my first Empyrean, a Kannagi, yesterday), but if DNC were added to Mandau even I would start buying currency immediately.

[Theytak]

Honestly, the most aggravating thing about this whole situation is how totally silent SE is on the issue. You would think by now they would have clarified whether or not the new jobs will be able to use magian trial weapons (assuming that geomancer, being a magey~support job would probably want the magian staves), and will simply not have access to the physical trials that lead to emp weapons, but no, they're leaving it in the dark, and the longer it goes, the more heavy the implication that neither geomancer nor rune fencer will be able to access ANY of the magian trials, which is absolutely ridiculous.

[FrankReynolds]

Nothing to really add, other than that I am a player who is acutely aware of just how short ALL of these weapons fall in a cost/benefit analysis and was never really motivated to do any of them (I literally only finished my first Empyrean, a Kannagi, yesterday), but if DNC were added to Mandau even I would start buying currency immediately.

Seriously. If DNC could rock it, I would build one sooo fast.

[Okipuit]

Greetings,

We would like to provide further explanation as to why Relic Weapons will not be expanded to other jobs.
Relic weapons were created based on the current weapon types available in Vana'diel and not based on the available jobs. Since there are differences between which weapons certain jobs can equip, this is something that cannot be completely equal.



So SE said in a interview that Geo and Rune fencer will not be able to use Relics and Empyrean weapons.

Either way the issue as a whole.

Firstly DNC and SCH
These 2 jobs fit the lore of relic weapons massively so i really think at the least DNC should be able to use mandau and SCH should be able to use club or staff

Now PUP COR and BLU
All 3 Weapons wouldn't make any of the jobs overpowered but the gun would help COR alot when wildfire (it's prome source of DMG) isn't available either way i think BLU is a skilled enough swordsman to weild an Excalibur and COR gunman to weild Annihilator and PUP worth enough to wield the hand 2 hand.

Finally GEO and RUN
They definitely should have the option to wield empyrean the gsd emp and staff emp arn't ground breaking weapons so i see no reason why they shouldn't have emps

Then Relics well it depends w/ the above if BLU COR and PUP get access so should GEO and RUN
Honestly only having mythics as a final weapon is kinda sad :(

In summary my suggestion is this
There should a be a relic and empyrean for every job in the game


In addition to the aforementioned reason, in order to make it possible for these jobs to equip relic weapons, we would have to make changes to the current stats on relic weapons, and since this would affect other jobs as well it is not such a simple thing to do. This doesn't just pertain to only adjustments, the same can be said for if we were to add new weapons, as they would affect currently existing items.

After a thorough discussion, we have decided to keep Relic Weapons as they are in the case new weapons are added. These new weapons will be designed around their respective jobs.

Also, in regards to mythic weapons, these weapons are similar to artifact and relic gear as they are job specific, so we plan on releasing mythic weapons for any new jobs that are introduced moving forward.

[Tamarsamar]

Cop-out! Non-excuses! Claiming there's a legitimate reason when you're just pulling it out of your bums!

I think that summarizes everybody's objections succinctly enough.

[FrankReynolds]

With the exception of this:


Also, in regards to mythic weapons, these weapons are similar to artifact and relic gear as they are job specific, so we plan on releasing mythic weapons for any new jobs that are introduced moving forward.

... none of what you just said made any sense. Just to be clear. No sense at all.

You may as well have just said "we are not adding other jobs to existing relics because: popcorn rainbow jellyfish zooberzatelflop.".

[Demon6324236]

Okipuit are there plans to make obtaining a Mythic weapon more realistic? At the moment they take much to long for anyone to bother doing, alot of time and money has to go into making a Mythic. Relic & Emp weapons have one advantage that Mythics do not, a divercity of jobs, as you said yourself...
Also, in regards to mythic weapons, these weapons are similar to artifact and relic gear as they are job specificThis is part of the problem in my opinion, when looking at a weapon I want to make, I see a weapon I can make fast, for 2~3 jobs. A weapon I can make somewhat slowly, for 1~3 jobs, or a weapon, that will take me 6+ months perhaps even a year, of rigorous work and hardship, to make for a single job. Part of the problem with this in reality is that this game changes relevant jobs occationaly, so making a weapon for a job now, may be a waste of time once this expansion comes out, or the next update is releasing new content.

I myself still don't understand how the effects on the current weapons would be overpowering to the jobs, but apparently that is what the devs believe, if thats a case, please make a Mythic weapon a true possibility. Even a note was placed into the census commenting on the extremely small number of Mythics currently made in relevance to Relics and Emps. Back when Mythics were made they were to be the "casuals" relic, but that gap is enormous, and in the wrong direction, rather than being easier than relics, they are harder, and not slightly, but by a longshot.

Can we also be told if at least some trial weapons will be available to Rune/Geo or not? Without knowing this it is impossible to know what the job will be doing, if you give neither of these jobs trial weapons then I am sorry to say but in all honesty these jobs will seriously die very quickly.

Trial weapons and Relic/Emp have been the main weapons everyone uses on most jobs due to their power and ability to enhance the attributes a job needs or specializes in directly. For instance, Ninjas normally use a combo between EVA Katanas, STR Katanas, and an Emp/Relic Katana. WARs use Emp/Relic GA, Relic Sword, and PDT GA. DRKs use OAT GS, Relic GS, and Relic Scythe. If Rune/Geo truly have no access to these, then it will come down to either having a Mythic, or having an AH weapon, neither of which are good or appealing choices most likely. This will probably result in a job, entering this game dead as soon as it begins.

[Xerius]

Greetings,

We would like to provide further explanation as to why Relic Weapons will not be expanded to other jobs.
Relic weapons were created based on the current weapon types available in Vana'diel and not based on the available jobs. Since there are differences between which weapons certain jobs can equip, this is something that cannot be completely equal.



In addition to the aforementioned reason, in order to make it possible for these jobs to equip relic weapons, we would have to make changes to the current stats on relic weapons, and since this would affect other jobs as well it is not such a simple thing to do. This doesn't just pertain to only adjustments, the same can be said for if we were to add new weapons, as they would affect currently existing items.

After a thorough discussion, we have decided to keep Relic Weapons as they are in the case new weapons are added. These new weapons will be designed around their respective jobs.

Also, in regards to mythic weapons, these weapons are similar to artifact and relic gear as they are job specific, so we plan on releasing mythic weapons for any new jobs that are introduced moving forward.

Why don't you guys make a list of what changes would have to be made to empys and relics and let the players vote to see if they'd like them to stay the same or if we'd like the newer jobs to be able to equip them and take the nerfs? Is that really too much to ask for? :(

[Luvbunny]

LOL I feel truly sorry for Okipuit, bad news after bad news have to be delivered. Well at least we know that the current team is just as stubborn and clueless as the one before them. With barely any visions other than just put another bandage solutions, or flatly refused any suggestions from their player base. I think it's rather clear the vision now, ignore the player base, hope they quit, and perhaps migrate to FF14.... Though most would probably just ignore SE, quit alltogether, stop buying their future product, and lost faith at the company.

[Muras]

With the exception of this:


... none of what you just said made any sense. Just to be clear. No sense at all.

You may as well have just said "we are not adding other jobs to existing relics because: popcorn rainbow jellyfish zooberzatelflop.".

Yeah, seriously, that explanation from Okipuit makes no sense at all. Hopefully people continue to complain until we get a real answer. In all honesty, I don't even think the answer given is the real reason why they don't add new jobs to the old weapons either. It just feels like the devs are being deceitful to me.

[Insaniac]

The devs are pretending their jobs are harder than they actually are. Anyone who knows anything about these weapons and jobs can look at them for 45 seconds and see that adding new jobs to them would break absolutely nothing. Can we please get a more specific explanation of what you are afraid of so we can have a serious back and forth instead of a

"Can we has?"
"No"
"Why"
"Because we said so"
"Based on what?"
"The fact that Roger Rabbit had both Disney and Warner Brothers characters in it"
(-_-)?

[Kojo]

In addition to the aforementioned reason, in order to make it possible for these jobs to equip relic weapons, we would have to make changes to the current stats on relic weapons, and since this would affect other jobs as well it is not such a simple thing to do. This doesn't just pertain to only adjustments, the same can be said for if we were to add new weapons, as they would affect currently existing items.

Why would they have to make changes? Help us understand, give us an example. I'm not trying to 'shoot the messenger', I know you're not a dev, so I'm not going to lash out at you or anything, but this honestly seems like a cop out. I don't see why anything would need to be changed, nor do I see how adding jobs to relics would effect balance in any way unless you added BLM to Apocalypse or something completely illogical like that. I'll probably be crucified for saying this, but I never completely understood why BRD gets Mandau, why PLD gets Ragnarok, but they do. Why? Why wasn't PLD put on Mjollnir or Claustrum? It'd make about the same amount of sense.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, if PLD got Claustrum, it'd actually have a use, situational to the point of being redundant to upgrade, but it would be a use.

[Economizer]

We would like to provide further explanation as to why Relic Weapons will not be expanded to other jobs.

As long as the letters WHM are the only letters on Mjollnir, I think I'll be okay.

That said, please be sure to examine the Empyrean weapons closely. I think they're new enough for a change in who can equip them!

[Kojo]

As long as the letters WHM are the only letters on Mjollnir, I think I'll be okay.

That said, please be sure to examine the Empyrean weapons closely. I think they're new enough for a change in who can equip them!

You didn't hear? SAM and WAR get Mjollnir after next update.

[Alistaire]

They wouldn't need to change the stats on the relics; it's just an excuse they think we'll buy into for some reason. Nothing would be gamebreaking with the stats as they are, on the jobs that should get them. End of story.

Edit: it's also really starting to sound like this Okipuit guy is talking on his own, referencing the BST thread where he posted rudely, ignoring the previous post by other SE reps about BST TH+ equipment.

[Tamarsamar]

I don't see why so many WHMs are self-entitled about Mjollnir to be threatened by the prospect of SCH ever being added to it. You utter the words "Molva Maul" and they all put fingers in their ears and start screaming "LALALALALA" at the tops of their lungs . . .

That said, yeah, not being able to add post-CoP jobs to Relic Weapons (and, by extension, post-WotG jobs with Empyrean Weapons) "because we would have to change the stats" is a bit of a non-sequitur, as everybody here has pretty much called out so far. Even if it's for this whole "balance" facade that SE is also frequently derided for (because let's face it, that did get thrown out the window with the introduction of Empyrean Weapons), I would bet you that adding Excalibur to Blue Mage would mandate giving it better stats, since we all know BLU is SE's baby in terms of the gear they have available to them. And I, for one, would certainly not argue against an Excalibur buff.

[Byrth]

There are no job specific stats on relic weapons and in no way are the jobs in question better or worse suited to using the weapons than those already on them. There is no logic behind their decisions.

[Demon6324236]

Only possible job being messed with PUP via counter I think...

[Kojo]

There are no job specific stats on relic weapons and in no way are the jobs in question better or worse suited to using the weapons than those already on them. There is no logic behind their decisions.

I would think the fact that Relics and Emps have no job specific stats would be a reason they SHOULD be equippable by new jobs. Honestly, I'd rather not have either new jobs if we have to choose between Mythic or AH weapons, I highly doubt any of the stuff they add in SoA will be as available as even a Tenebreuse or as useful as a Fulgurante. I'd assume new stuff would be either Rare/EX with a horrible drop rate, or AHable with a 20-30mil price tag. If we who are looking forward to Rune Fencer are lucky, we might get Hoarfrost Blade/Borealis, or our best GS might be a Jingang or a Kriegsmesser. Don't get your hopes up or you'll be like the Ridill owners whose mouths were watering when BLU's weapon type was announced only to be let down.

EDIT:

Only possible job being messed with PUP via counter I think...

There is that, I suppose, still, not groundbreaking.

[Byrth]

Any job can sub MNK, use Counterstance, and get much more Counter than Spharai gives.

[Fredjan]

In addition to the aforementioned reason, in order to make it possible for these jobs to equip relic weapons, we would have to make changes to the current stats on relic weapons, and since this would affect other jobs as well it is not such a simple thing to do. This doesn't just pertain to only adjustments, the same can be said for if we were to add new weapons, as they would affect currently existing items.

And changes to current stats are a bad thing in a lot of cases (This would mean adjusted base damage and delay to compensate for multiple jobs); be careful what you wish for, people. I don't see why the new jobs shouldn't get empyreans/magian weapons (since empyrean weapons are "considered" (there are definitely exceptions to this) the most powerful magian weapons), but relics I can kinda understand.

This is, indeed, not new reasoning for SE.

I can name ONE weapon right off the bat that would have lowered stats: Spharai.

The damage and delay would both be lowered (this I could guarantee) to compensate for PUP. PUP is NOT known for having high delay weapons; Verethragna's damage/delay ratings are the way they are because PUP is on it. Hand-to-hand R/M/E is one of those cases where the empyrean has the weakest damage rating for one job but the highest for another because it has to compensate for another job.

This isn't disrespect towards the job, either - it's merely observation.

Case in point, just damage/delay on the level 99 weapons:
Spharai: DMG:+52, Delay:+86 MNK
Glanzfaust: DMG:+51 Delay:+96 MNK
Verethragna: DMG:+42 Delay:+51 MNK/PUP
Kenkonken: DMG:+41 Delay:+49 PUP

I can guarantee they wouldn't put PUP on Spharai and call it a day. SE is all about "balancing" - whether we players agree with it or not. And their point of view of "balancing" in the case of weapons and multiple job use can be seen well comparing those damage and delay ratings. That is the most likely scenario that Okipuit is referring to from the development team.

Eh, figured I'd put my two cents into this - I don't really play anymore, but I had to show an example of what they could most likely mean. That doesn't even consider other stats that could be adjusted.

[Sp1cyryan]

Greetings,

We would like to provide further explanation as to why Relic Weapons will not be expanded to other jobs.
Relic weapons were created based on the current weapon types available in Vana'diel and not based on the available jobs. Since there are differences between which weapons certain jobs can equip, this is something that cannot be completely equal.



In addition to the aforementioned reason, in order to make it possible for these jobs to equip relic weapons, we would have to make changes to the current stats on relic weapons, and since this would affect other jobs as well it is not such a simple thing to do. This doesn't just pertain to only adjustments, the same can be said for if we were to add new weapons, as they would affect currently existing items.

After a thorough discussion, we have decided to keep Relic Weapons as they are in the case new weapons are added. These new weapons will be designed around their respective jobs.

Also, in regards to mythic weapons, these weapons are similar to artifact and relic gear as they are job specific, so we plan on releasing mythic weapons for any new jobs that are introduced moving forward.

Without a doubt you guys are grasping at straws. We have heard a lot of excuses, but this is by far the worse.

Emperian weapons have stats geared purely to their WS modifiers. The only thing you could say is the base damage should be higher or lower, but this is really a moot point.

The relic staff is garbage so I will skip over even talking about that, but the relic GS on the other hand.

So we have PLD and DRK. Jobs that are completely different in their intended roles (that is all that matters for you guys right?) that get the same sort of weapon, but not Runic Fencer? Going by the logic of the Dev team Runic Fencer should not be on any existing weapon. However, I am strongly expect that they will be on existing weapons you can pick up at your local AH.

I can see not adding armor to abyssea for the two jobs as that throws off the number of papers each NM drops or the number of jobs a +2 item is used for. But, weapons that even multiple jobs can already use? You want to claim that is geared to the job when multiple jobs with various intended uses and power can use them? What is this, I don't even..

[Demon6324236]

I'm not sayin by anymeans its game breaking, just something PUP doesn't have, that it would get... Trust me, I'm not against this ;>_> just making a point.

[Sp1cyryan]

I'm not sayin by anymeans its game breaking, just something PUP doesn't have, that it would get... Trust me, I'm not against this ;>_> just making a point.

Remember now, DNC can proc with evisceration where PUP can not with Asuran Fists. This is simply because clearly evisceration was acceptably geared towards DNC when they did not exist. Where Asuran Fists was not made beforehand for use on PUP.

In fact the Devs were astounded when they tested DNC, BLU, COR, and SCH. They all could use a quest WS they would later make a proc in multiple events. Sadly though, when they tested Asuran Fists on PUP it simply split and atom causing a massive explosion with countless lives lost. They then realized it be impossible to ever try this again. Then along came Geomancer and Runic Fencer,,,

Allowing 4 out of 5 jobs access to a proc is actually more game breaking than allowing them all access. BUT! We must all learn the logic of the Devs!

[Rezeak]

In addition to the aforementioned reason, in order to make it possible for these jobs to equip relic weapons, we would have to make changes to the current stats on relic weapons, and since this would affect other jobs as well it is not such a simple thing to do. This doesn't just pertain to only adjustments, the same can be said for if we were to add new weapons, as they would affect currently existing items.

After a thorough discussion, we have decided to keep Relic Weapons as they are in the case new weapons are added. These new weapons will be designed around their respective jobs.

I can understand that reason but saying relics would be overpowered when really they would be no more overpowered than they are already.

BLU Excalibur is weaker than almace anyway and won't turn BLU into a pld replace.
COR Annihilator would make the job stronger on phyical mobs but lack of a good bullet would keep it well behide RNG
PUP Empyrean is stronger than the relic anyway.
SCH on staff or club ... yea not overpowered
DNC on Mandau would be no more overpowered than a THF w/ mandau

As for Geo or Rnf

That's fair enough to say that but since Emp great sword is already weaker than some VW GSD w/e.

Honestly it's a really crappy excuse in my opinion.

The only reason i se for not adding these weapon on jobs is this.
Not adding jobs to relic so that everyone is on a level playing field when these jobs are/were added and since these jobs have exsisted without these weapons it would be unfair on the jobs that have built other weapons to lose there advantage or there effort made less vauble.

But ofc w/ the above every update old gear is made obsolete i waited like 3 years to get an algol and once i did the abyssea update said /usless.

[Dawnn]

Please tell me IN SPECIFIC what stat on which weapon would be overpowered for the aforementioned jobs? Go on SE your move! This is bullshit and you know it. From what is stated on rune fencer we can pretty much already see that it won't have the attack bonuses that a warrior or dark knight have. So even IF it got ragnarok it still wouldn't parse as high. Don't even get me started on dancer and mandau, sure the attack is nice but due to the way damage is calculated for one handed weapons and considering level correction it still wont be as good as a fully geared/skilled drk or war. It really makes me wonder if they even play their own game. You don't to add new empyreans because they wont fit in the current paths? Well at this moment there is nothing else Kukulkan/Sedna is used for other than staff. Throw these 2 jobs onto that path and BAM problem solved.

I AM full on mad.

[Economizer]

I don't see why so many WHMs are self-entitled about Mjollnir to be threatened by the prospect of SCH ever being added to it. You utter the words "Molva Maul" and they all put fingers in their ears and start screaming "LALALALALA" at the tops of their lungs . . .

The Molva Maul is the main reason White Mages feel so threatened, another would be Realmrazer, which is in fact better then Hexa Strike despite the nerf. Staff jobs like Scholar traditionally do their damage from magical sources. White Mages use clubs and hammers.

The bottom line is no other job is a Club job. Paladins, who might actually make any amount of sense with one are a Sword job. Scholars, the class where we only talk about this because of a pair of what are essentially mistakes that happened in Abyssea (the only Hammer style clubs SCH even gets is the Molva Maul, and the Trainee Hammer, further adding the the mistake category), is most definitely a Staff job - their Mythic is a Staff, their Nyzul WS is a Staff WS, their Empyrean is a Staff, they can't do Magian Club trials, they don't have Mystic Boon but instead have Spirit Taker, Shattersoul combos much, much better with their nukes... the list goes on. This isn't like Regen where SCH was good at it early on and SE made a mistake and didn't give them Regen IV for whatever reason, this is something that makes absolutely no sense for Scholar. I highly doubt if the typo that is the Molva Maul never existed we'd be having this discussion, since one weapon does not a master make.

At best, I might consider it fair for Geomancer if the job uses hammer style clubs, gets Hexa Strike, but I still wouldn't like it. White Mage got something special and unique, playing a WHM DD has a very unique feel to it, both gameplay-wise and lore wise.

On and to play devil's advocate, I don't see why so many Scholars are so entitled about having everything White Mage has. You utter the "Cure IV is good enough for 99% of situations" and they put fingers in their ears and start screaming "CURE VI CURE VI CURE VI" at the top of their lungs.

[Raksha]

SE shoulda just said:

nope.jpg

[Tamarsamar]

things

Dear White Mages:

You're saying that you're worried that your toes might be stepped on? By a job who can't even melee as well as you? That's cute.

Sincerely,
Red Mages

[Return1]

In addition to the aforementioned reason, in order to make it possible for these jobs to equip relic weapons, we would have to make changes to the current stats on relic weapons, and since this would affect other jobs as well it is not such a simple thing to do. This doesn't just pertain to only adjustments, the same can be said for if we were to add new weapons, as they would affect currently existing items.

This is a total crock of shit. Relics stats aren't tailored to jobs at all. They have a large chunk or ACC or ATK attached to them depending on if they are 1 or 2 handed, and either a random debuff or boost, and (for the most part) WSes with mods that suck completely and have drastically underpowered aftermaths. It must have been hard crafting WSes with such unique and powerful mods like Geirskogul and Scourge (Translation note: Try to realize this is sarcasm when you tell the brain trust). I'm sure the whole fucking game would just collapse if you gave Rune Fencer access to the best GS, if it's MND/CHR modded WS didn't go unchanged!

I don't even care that new jobs can't use them, but the shitty excuses for why they can't are damn insulting to anyone with a modicum of intelligence.

[Dawnn]

This is a total crock of shit. Relics stats aren't tailored to jobs at all. They have a large chunk or ACC or ATK attached to them depending on if they are 1 or 2 handed, and either a random debuff or boost, and (for the most part) WSes with mods that suck completely and have drastically underpowered aftermaths. It must have been hard crafting WSes with such unique and powerful mods like Geirskogul and Scourge (Translation note: Try to realize this is sarcasm when you tell the brain trust). I'm sure the whole fucking game would just collapse if you gave Rune Fencer access to the best GS, if it's MND/CHR modded WS didn't go unchanged!

I don't even care that new jobs can't use them, but the shitty excuses for why they can't are damn insulting to anyone with a modicum of intelligence.

so much this! SE learn from this guy here ^

[Zhronne]

In addition to the aforementioned reason, in order to make it possible for these jobs to equip relic weapons, we would have to make changes to the current stats on relic weapons
But why lol?
Would you need to change the stats on CLAUSTRUM to make it so SCH can equip it? Why? Just add a /SCH there in the list :D
Why would need to change EXCALIBUR stats for for BLU?

Altough I agree Mandau for DNC, Spharai for PUP and Annihilator for COR could indeed be a problem.
I mean, if devs said something like:

Spharai is a weapon meant for MNK and it would create us issues to balance the game were we to make it available for PUP, the same thing can be said for Mandau and Annihilator, so in the end we decided it would have been more fair to just leave things as they are

Now... if they said something like THIS, maybe I would have accepted. Why don't they start saying more specific things? Giving the impression they really know the game, they play it, they know how it works, they know the details?
They always give us these generic replies, as if they think we're all casuals who don't know shit about the game and so we need to be held by the hand because otherwise we wouldn't understand their replies at all.

I mean, wtf? This damages both parts. It does damage to us users because we always end up being unsatisfied and frustrated.
It damages the dev's reputation because they keep giving the impression they don't know shit about the game they develop.


Please Camate, tell them to stop giving such generic and appearently nonsensical replies. Tell them to give us DETAILS.

[Dawnn]

But why lol?
Would you need to change the stats on CLAUSTRUM to make it so SCH can equip it? Why? Just add a /SCH there in the list :D
Why would need to change EXCALIBUR stats for for BLU?

Altough I agree Mandau for DNC, Spharai for PUP and Annihilator for COR could indeed be a problem.
I mean, if devs said something like:

Spharai is a weapon meant for MNK and it would create us issues to balance the game were we to make it available for PUP, the same thing can be said for Mandau and Annihilator, so in the end we decided it would have been more fair to just leave things as they are

Now... if they said something like THIS, maybe I would have accepted. Why don't they start saying more specific things? Giving the impression they really know the game, they play it, they know how it works, they know the details?
They always give us these generic replies, as if they think we're all casuals who don't know shit about the game and so we need to be held by the hand because otherwise we wouldn't understand their replies at all.

I mean, wtf? This damages both parts. It does damage to us users because we always end up being unsatisfied and frustrated.
It damages the dev's reputation because they keep giving the impression they don't know shit about the game they develop.


Please Camate, tell them to stop giving such generic and appearently nonsensical replies. Tell them to give us DETAILS.

Like I said already, mandau wouldn't add too much more to the table that isn't already obtainable from twashtar, coruscanti, or str thokchas.

Cor and wildfire fit together so good that an anni cor would be hard pressed to surpass it, but I'm sure some cor somewhere could do it. However cor's themselves aren't top tier DD and an addition of annihilator would be nice. The whole ranged attack system is messed up and needs heavy revamping for it to even be an issue though.

Pup + Spharai does nothing to complement eachother like pup + kenkonken. Sure it would be a fun weapon, but it would be less than impressive when compared to verethranga even.

[Morari]

Maybe the new jobs aren't getting any empyrean or relics because SoA will bring in its own set of ultimate weapons? That's the only feasible reason why I can see SE not taking the time or resources to look over the current sets of ultimate weapons...

[Return1]

Rune Fencer is virtually doomed. With the ease of getting Relic weapons, and the pointlessness of tanks, I can't see a use for it as of now. So they specialize in a weapon they don't get the strongest form of? GENIUS!

So they're at best 3rd best with GS, making them a throwaway DD compared to all the Ragnarok DRKs and WARs.

Tanking is a joke because of enmity cap, everyone can get -50% PDT/MDT or damn close, and MP management is nonexistent.

So what does Rune Fencer have to offer? The promise of a Mythic that currently would be ridiculous to obtain, and that would be passable with Resolution 5/5.

[Fusionx]

I can appreciate that at least you are in fact adding a new "ultimate" weapon for every class with Mythic weapons, however, it's also a massive problem because of the difficulty of obtaining said mythic weapons.

Mythic weapons need to be easier to obtain for this thought process to make sense to the players. Why not add new relic or empyrean weapons that are focused on the new jobs instead? At least the community at large would be able to get those.

[Alistaire]

It's really amazing that SE is putting all this time and money into pissing off the players lately. I really believe 2 things about this game right now:

1. SE is trying to shut down FFXI. They're well on their way to making even the most hardcore players give up and go elsewhere.
2. "Balance" has to be a mistranslation, because this kind of thing is quite literally the opposite.

[Zhronne]

COR Annihilator would make the job stronger on phyical mobs but lack of a good bullet would keep it well behide RNG
I'm afraid that atm their concern is that a class like COR, which was originally meant to be a buffer able to do some damage, can already deal too much damage.
Indeed there are situations where this is true.
Armageddon is awesome, but Annihilator would be a pretty good weapon as well for COR, despite the lack of gear RNG has.
Comparing the two common options that are easily obtainable without too much effort, that is 95 Anni (71 base damage) vs 90 Armageddon (64 base damage).
If I recall base damage has an impact on Quick Draw?
Also, Coronach's aftermath is pretty cool.
Not saying Annihilator would ve overpowered or that it would break the game/the job, but I can understand them for having some concerns about it.


PUP Empyrean is stronger than the relic anyway.
premise: LOLPUP
Aside from that you're forgetting that PUP has naturally access to a very powerful WS which is not bound to a weapon, that's Stringing Pummel. An awesome 6hit CRIT ws. Amount of crit rate given per TP is lower than Victory Smite, but nonetheless that's still a very powerful WS.
In my opinion Spharai would be a very powerful weapon for PUP compared to Verethragna. Aside from the difference in gear options, it would probably be more powerful than it is on MNK since they can't use a WS like Victory Smite (i.e. Stringing Pummel) on Spharai but have to resort to Shijin Spiral, which is available to PUP as well and PUP has a lot of nice +DEX gear option.
Anyway, lolpup etc, but Spharai would really be a nice weapon for PUP.

[Alikhat]

Isn't this the point of the test server, though, to test ideas out and see if they can work/need tweaking? Unless adding a job temporarily to the relic weapons requires the sacrifice of 100 lambs to some kind of deity for the purpose of player-base testing, I don't really see why the idea cannot at least be entertained. Considering that the players are the best judges of what is overpowered or not (because let's face it the Devs don't, otherwise we wouldn't have all this rage), then the test server would be an ideal place for these kinds of things. Of course, you'd have to add the relics as acquirable items temporarily too.

At least when it comes to player based testing, it's usually thorough and shows why certain setups are as good/bad as they are and are either overpowered or underpowered. When it comes to SE's reasons, however, all we get is "it would probably be too powerful" or "<insert other lame excuse here>", and no actual testing data to show this. The majority of the player base won't settle for unproven reasons, because they aren't reasoned to begin with. Some examples as to why these things might be even remotely too much for the Balance to handle might just reduce the amount of agony that players are suffering when they see a Community Rep reply to a post regarding a subject matter that's been in discussion for years.

[saevel]

Rune Fencer is virtually doomed. With the ease of getting Relic weapons, and the pointlessness of tanks, I can't see a use for it as of now. So they specialize in a weapon they don't get the strongest form of? GENIUS!

So they're at best 3rd best with GS, making them a throwaway DD compared to all the Ragnarok DRKs and WARs.

Tanking is a joke because of enmity cap, everyone can get -50% PDT/MDT or damn close, and MP management is nonexistent.

So what does Rune Fencer have to offer? The promise of a Mythic that currently would be ridiculous to obtain, and that would be passable with Resolution 5/5.

Its not really no Rag that's limiting it, it's no trial 216 weapon. The OaT Fulgurante is so incredibly powerful compared to all other non-Rag GS's that without it RUN will become a 3rd tier DD. Even a PUP will become more powerful then they are.

Oki ask the dev's about access to magian weapons, specifically the OaT / Fire STR ones.

[Zhronne]

Tbh I miss the point of the Test Server compared to other games.
When has a bug found out by users been corrected before the test server patch hit live servers?
When have observations on unbalanced aspects made by users concerning test server data been implemented on live servers?
Makes you wonder wtf is the point of Test Server. Altough I admit I had my good share of fun there.


As for the relics I wanted to add that imho even if they allowed the 3 ToAU and the 2 WotG jobs to use relics, it wouldn't be a big deal, really. Some slight unbalancement? Possibly. Something to be concerned about? Not really.
My point is that I hate the stupid and generic replies they keep on giving us, treating us as a non informed, casual, noob player base while we're totally not.

We want detailed replies. They sometimes managed to give us those replies, they need to do it more often, possibly everytime.
Replies like the one that Camate brought to us concerning Relic weapons are unacceptable.
They need to explain us the DETAILS of why they feel concerned about that.
If it's just an excuse and not a real reason well... then make up better excuses next time.

An example? Check the way Blizzard handles replies to specific questions to the game.
Not claiming they get it right all the times, but even when you don't like thei replies (which in my case is very often) at least they usually make sense and you can understand why they are saying something even if you don't agree with that.

[Vivik]

Greetings,

We would like to provide further explanation as to why Relic Weapons will not be expanded to other jobs.
Relic weapons were created based on the current weapon types available in Vana'diel and not based on the available jobs. Since there are differences between which weapons certain jobs can equip, this is something that cannot be completely equal.



In addition to the aforementioned reason, in order to make it possible for these jobs to equip relic weapons, we would have to make changes to the current stats on relic weapons, and since this would affect other jobs as well it is not such a simple thing to do. This doesn't just pertain to only adjustments, the same can be said for if we were to add new weapons, as they would affect currently existing items.

After a thorough discussion, we have decided to keep Relic Weapons as they are in the case new weapons are added. These new weapons will be designed around their respective jobs.

Also, in regards to mythic weapons, these weapons are similar to artifact and relic gear as they are job specific, so we plan on releasing mythic weapons for any new jobs that are introduced moving forward.

No DRG for party, camp spot site with 30 dmg, but is it for 20 like 30 dmg when you no hit be it for dd, for 30 dmg instead? Or half is 10 for 20 dmg?

[Byrth]

No DRG for party, camp spot site with 30 dmg, but is it for 20 like 30 dmg when you no hit be it for dd, for 30 dmg instead? Or half is 10 for 20 dmg?

Made at least as much sense as the official response. Plus, points for being classic.

[Daniel]

You know what I agree, I mean look at how powerful the relic staff is in the hands of a BLM! Now just imagine if you gave that to sch! They would be mele bad asses, no one would ever want a war again!

[Return1]

Its not really no Rag that's limiting it, it's no trial 216 weapon. The OaT Fulgurante is so incredibly powerful compared to all other non-Rag GS's that without it RUN will become a 3rd tier DD. Even a PUP will become more powerful then they are.

Oki ask the dev's about access to magian weapons, specifically the OaT / Fire STR ones.

Well no rag is the real limit, no one gives a shit if you can't access the second best weapon, unless you can't access the best.

Also, I would be willing to bet that even SE isn't retarded enough to release a job without magian weapons. Also, if RUN makes it onto any magian weapon trials, it'll most likely be on an Empyrean because SE wouldn't want to take the time to remove them from just the Empyreans instead of copy pasta all across.

The job is pretty DOA though in terms of DDing and tanking. It specializes in GS and has no access to the strongest GS, which can easily be obtained in a couple months of laid back farming or even in weeks with some zeal.

[tyrantsyn]

Okay so if those weapon are out of the question, could there be something new and equivalent made for those job's so that the player base could have another option?

[Elexia]

LOL I feel truly sorry for Okipuit, bad news after bad news have to be delivered. Well at least we know that the current team is just as stubborn and clueless as the one before them. With barely any visions other than just put another bandage solutions, or flatly refused any suggestions from their player base. I think it's rather clear the vision now, ignore the player base, hope they quit, and perhaps migrate to FF14.... Though most would probably just ignore SE, quit alltogether, stop buying their future product, and lost faith at the company.

You can keep saying this all you want but that won't make it any more truer. This isn't like when you were in elementary school where you can repeat yourself till your wish comes true.


Though most would probably just ignore SE, quit alltogether, stop buying their future product, and lost faith at the company.'

You =/= Most players. Most players actually would rather play XIV than rejoin XI not because of the rough start a new player will have, but because the community has degraded into something fierce.

[Theytak]

Greetings,

We would like to provide further explanation as to why Relic Weapons will not be expanded to other jobs.
Relic weapons were created based on the current weapon types available in Vana'diel and not based on the available jobs. Since there are differences between which weapons certain jobs can equip, this is something that cannot be completely equal.



In addition to the aforementioned reason, in order to make it possible for these jobs to equip relic weapons, we would have to make changes to the current stats on relic weapons, and since this would affect other jobs as well it is not such a simple thing to do. This doesn't just pertain to only adjustments, the same can be said for if we were to add new weapons, as they would affect currently existing items.

After a thorough discussion, we have decided to keep Relic Weapons as they are in the case new weapons are added. These new weapons will be designed around their respective jobs.

Also, in regards to mythic weapons, these weapons are similar to artifact and relic gear as they are job specific, so we plan on releasing mythic weapons for any new jobs that are introduced moving forward.

This does nothing to answer, and infact, completely ignores, the other question posed even in the post you quoted; what about EMPYREAN weapons? Further, will you please just tell use whether or not the new jobs will be able to use magians at all? Right now, it sounds like you guys are trying to say that neither runefencer nor geomancer will have access to magian trial weapons, because magian trials were "balanced around the 20 existing jobs" because good lord, there's something game breaking and unbalanced around every weapon having the same stat bonuses available as every other weapon of similar hand-requirements, except for dmg and delay values.


The Molva Maul is the main reason White Mages feel so threatened, another would be Realmrazer, which is in fact better then Hexa Strike despite the nerf. Staff jobs like Scholar traditionally do their damage from magical sources. White Mages use clubs and hammers.

The bottom line is no other job is a Club job. Paladins, who might actually make any amount of sense with one are a Sword job. Scholars, the class where we only talk about this because of a pair of what are essentially mistakes that happened in Abyssea (the only Hammer style clubs SCH even gets is the Molva Maul, and the Trainee Hammer, further adding the the mistake category), is most definitely a Staff job - their Mythic is a Staff, their Nyzul WS is a Staff WS, their Empyrean is a Staff, they can't do Magian Club trials, they don't have Mystic Boon but instead have Spirit Taker, Shattersoul combos much, much better with their nukes... the list goes on. This isn't like Regen where SCH was good at it early on and SE made a mistake and didn't give them Regen IV for whatever reason, this is something that makes absolutely no sense for Scholar. I highly doubt if the typo that is the Molva Maul never existed we'd be having this discussion, since one weapon does not a master make.

At best, I might consider it fair for Geomancer if the job uses hammer style clubs, gets Hexa Strike, but I still wouldn't like it. White Mage got something special and unique, playing a WHM DD has a very unique feel to it, both gameplay-wise and lore wise.

On and to play devil's advocate, I don't see why so many Scholars are so entitled about having everything White Mage has. You utter the "Cure IV is good enough for 99% of situations" and they put fingers in their ears and start screaming "CURE VI CURE VI CURE VI" at the top of their lungs.
Whm's got a lot of unique shit, like cure skin, respectable light damage nukes (due to solace), an untouchable throne as the best healer in the game, stupid amounts of mp efficiency, lots of unique party buffs (auspice, pro/shell -ra lines, boost- line, which is unique from rdm because rdm is self-only), as well as all one of rdm's new, unique debuffs (addle). Whm is the strongest healer, the strongest magical buffer outside of embrava, and the strongest mage physically (ie: ability to melee). WHM is sitting on Mary Sue levels of "unique and special" and it really wouldn't suffer at all if it lost some of that. Sorry, econ, I like you, and I think you're a very intelligent guy, but whm is just a little OP right now. They have no place to be bitching about losing one of their many unique/special toys.


I'm afraid that atm their concern is that a class like COR, which was originally meant to be a buffer able to do some damage, can already deal too much damage.
Indeed there are situations where this is true.
Armageddon is awesome, but Annihilator would be a pretty good weapon as well for COR, despite the lack of gear RNG has.
Comparing the two common options that are easily obtainable without too much effort, that is 95 Anni (71 base damage) vs 90 Armageddon (64 base damage).
If I recall base damage has an impact on Quick Draw?
Also, Coronach's aftermath is pretty cool.
Not saying Annihilator would ve overpowered or that it would break the game/the job, but I can understand them for having some concerns about it.


premise: LOLPUP
Aside from that you're forgetting that PUP has naturally access to a very powerful WS which is not bound to a weapon, that's Stringing Pummel. An awesome 6hit CRIT ws. Amount of crit rate given per TP is lower than Victory Smite, but nonetheless that's still a very powerful WS.
In my opinion Spharai would be a very powerful weapon for PUP compared to Verethragna. Aside from the difference in gear options, it would probably be more powerful than it is on MNK since they can't use a WS like Victory Smite (i.e. Stringing Pummel) on Spharai but have to resort to Shijin Spiral, which is available to PUP as well and PUP has a lot of nice +DEX gear option.
Anyway, lolpup etc, but Spharai would really be a nice weapon for PUP.
They didn't have any problem putting brd on mandau, I don't see why putting cor on annihilator's any different. That's said from the perspective of someone who knows and regularly plays with a very well geared melee brd who does some of the craziest shit.

Also, as for pup, I do want to point out that for pup, shijin spiral and stringing pummel average roughly the same damage (ignoring kenkonken) with SS winning against higher defense shit, and SP winning against lower defense shit. Stringing Pummel is about the same level of power as Victory Smite, as well (ie: regular stringing pummel vs WoE weapon VS, or KKK stringing pummel vs Vere VS), due primarily to our terrible selection of str gear. The primary reason KKK is stronger than Vere for pup is that it has -50 delay on it. Even if we had access to spharai, we'd still never out damage a mnk in zerg situations; kick attacks alone are a huge gap that our puppet can't currently bridge. I really don't care about whether pup gets spharai, I'd still take KKK over them every day of the week, and twice on sunday, but pup having spharai won't suddenly make it stronger than mnk, so SE doesn't have any grounds to worry about that.

Besides, Evasion procs before counter, so pup can't even make the same level of use out of spharai's counter effect, because of how much more evasion we have, relative to a mnk.


No DRG for party, camp spot site with 30 dmg, but is it for 20 like 30 dmg when you no hit be it for dd, for 30 dmg instead? Or half is 10 for 20 dmg?
An winrar is you!

[Demon6324236]

You =/= Most players. Most players actually would rather play XIV than rejoin XI not because of the rough start a new player will have, but because the community has degraded into something fierce.

Well... I don't know, see, Bioware is like how Square is in a way. They were both Single Player game makers, and then they took their steps into MMO world, this game is going alot better than The Old Republic did, however its kinda the same idea. Bioware showed that after all that time, delaying, and everything else, their MMO kinda flopped. Now SE is doing better with FFXI but really, the question is what are they doing with it? If they ignore player feedback, or everyone outside of Japan at least, then what does that say about them with MMOs? If you are running a multiplayer game, feedback is very important, more so than any other kind of game. Now, if SE doesn't listen to players, and it ends up killing this game, I think it will show to others, that SE may not be the best company to put your money into with your Subscription. Another MMO may take players more seriously and really try to do things about flaws players find.

[saevel]

Well no rag is the real limit, no one gives a shit if you can't access the second best weapon, unless you can't access the best.

Also, I would be willing to bet that even SE isn't retarded enough to release a job without magian weapons. Also, if RUN makes it onto any magian weapon trials, it'll most likely be on an Empyrean because SE wouldn't want to take the time to remove them from just the Empyreans instead of copy pasta all across.

The job is pretty DOA though in terms of DDing and tanking. It specializes in GS and has no access to the strongest GS, which can easily be obtained in a couple months of laid back farming or even in weeks with some zeal.

Ohh how little you know...

That OaT competes with Rag damn near. It does that due to it's delay being significantly easier to work with then Rag's 431 delay and that it will on average shave a full hit off your time till 100.

Seriously 431 delay sucks to work with as /WAR.

[Return1]

Ohh how little you know...

That OaT competes with Rag damn near. It does that due to it's delay being significantly easier to work with then Rag's 431 delay and that it will on average shave a full hit off your time till 100.

Seriously 431 delay sucks to work with as /WAR.

You should have retardedly fast TP gain with either weapon unless you suck. It's fine to say it keeps up with napkin math, but in human performance it's not as good as napkin math states. The relatively garbage DoT (before even considering Rag's 2.5 damage mod), more WS saturation, lack of ACC, and lack of perfect timing puts Fulgurante soundly behind Ragnarok.

This is all besides the point though. No one should give a shit about Fulgorante with Ragnarok EASILY available. That's why not having access to Ragnarok is the biggest nail in the Coffin for RUN DD, Ragnarok DRKs or WARs are dime a dozen, and better than any "non-mythic" GS using DD. Talking about a lack of Fulgurante is just beating the dead horse that is RUN DD at that point.

[Zirael]

[...]
In addition to the aforementioned reason, in order to make it possible for these jobs to equip relic weapons, we would have to make changes to the current stats on relic weapons, and since this would affect other jobs as well it is not such a simple thing to do. This doesn't just pertain to only adjustments, the same can be said for if we were to add new weapons, as they would affect currently existing items.

[...]
You don't have to change relic weapon itself in any way. If, for example, you think by adding DNC to Mandau would make DNC to do more damage than 'old' Mandau jobs, just add a piece of armor (ammo, ring, whatever) that adds like +10% Mercy Stroke, or latent effect "Mandau equipped: +3% damage", usable only by 'old' Mandau jobs.
Or if that's too radical, next time you make new better armors (this will definitely happen with Seekers of Adoulin), just rebalance new relic jobs at that time. I't's not really that hard to add new jobs to Relic Weapons. You will be doing major rebalancing/rehauls of most jobs for Seekers of Adoulin anyways - might as well kill two birds with one stone.
Many players over the years have asked for this. Instead of saying "We can't be bothered to go through all the hassle" just make it happen. It's the "right" thing to do.

But honestly, as I see it, DNC getting Mandau, COR Annihilator this very moment, etc will not upset current balance that much. What kind of armageddon are you trying to prevent by denying your players this change?

[Gricus]

While we understand that you (SE) grasp the game from a programming standpoint and understand the game as a whole...... on paper. What a vast majority of the player base questions is, do any of you actually play the game?
To further clarify that, do any of you actually play the game as freethinking individuals seeking character growth? We want to know if anyone that has any part in the design process there actually plays the game as a game player would in it's current state.
You claim to understand the game when clearly you only understand the concept of the game and not the game itself.

[Theytak]

Ok, since I have several hours to kill while I reinstall the test server client, let's consider this stuff:

To Cover:
- Thf vs Dnc, if Mandau (Neither rdm nor brd are really worth comparing here, the obvious issue is that they think dnc will dethrone thf)
- Rng vs Cor, if Annihilator
- Mnk vs Pup, if Spharai
- Pld vs Blu, if Excalibur (again, not worth comparing rdm numbers)
additionally, sch isn't worth the time, because lolschmelee, and lolclaustrum

Now, Thf vs Dnc is a fair argument, in that dnc, realistically, has a much larger supply of DD abilities, and, on paper, has a roughly equal, or even higher, damage potential. That said, with how intense reinstalling the test server is on my computer (seriously, 1.6~2GIG zip files?), I can't be bothered to math out the specifics, because of the lag, but I may later on.

Rng vs Cor, really, isn't a question of who can put out more damage; that is, unquestioningly, rng, due to the difference in abilities, as well as the still rather obnoxious gap in ammo (rng only ammo has much higher dmg than rng/cor ammo). In fact, level 99 Annihilator (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Annihilator_%28Level_99%29) and level 99 Armageddon (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Armageddon_%28Level_99%29) have exactly the same dmg (76) and delay (582) ratings, which means that Cor's quickdraw would gain no additional benefit from having Annihilator over Armageddon, nor would cor suddenly have access to a high damage weapon with a different TP return. Now, annihilator is the stronger gun for shooting, yes, because of the 40 r.acc, 30 r.atk, and perpetual Occasionally Deals Triple Damage, however, Coronach vs Wildfire is a very bizarre situation, because Coronach's strength isn't so much it's damage, as that it gives a set (and very low) amount of enmity, and the aftermath lowers enmity generation further. This is very powerful for rng, but really, these days, most cors who are playing DD are doing it with an Armageddon and riding wild fire, and they're not likely to pull more hate than a rng.

Next up, Mnk vs Pup. I've already explained this one a bit; Spharai is a very powerful weapon for mnk, and it would be very powerful for pup as well, but currently, pup is physically incapable of surpassing mnk's damage output in any melee damage situation, due to the way the job works. Spharai won't change that. Besides, Kenkonken would still be stronger for pup. Now, it is worth considering that Spharai is also a defensive weapon, to some degree (13% counter is rather nice, but it's no burtgang, that's a nearly pure defensive weapon), and final heaven is rather irrelevant because its aftermath is subtle blow+10, and anything worth fighting these days has stupid amounts of regain anyway. However, due to pup's evasion, it's not as able to take advantage of the 13% counter, and since it doesn't have any counter damage+ gear, a base counter rate, or much at all in the way of counter gear, it's not exactly a huge benefit for pup.

Finally, Pld vs Blu. Blu's gonna out damage pld, there's not really any question here, because pld's a tank, and blu's a DD. The only redeeming features on Excalibur are it's dmg rating, the 40 atk, OD2.5x, and Additional Effect. Knights of Round is absolute garbage, and the aftermath is a rather lackluster 10 HP/tick regen (which blu can easily beat with spells). Honestly, this poor weapon could really benefit from blu being able to use it; it's not like pld or rdm are actually able to use it to its full DD potential anyway. It's a little depressing, honestly.

Thus;

Annihilator and Spharai would need absolutely no change to their stats if cor and pup (respectively) were added, as it would not influence the damage gap between cor and rng or mnk and pup in any way, shape, or form.

Excalibur is really in desperate need of having a real DD job that can use it, because it's so sad to see such a potentially strong weapon (KoR aside) getting left behind simply because the only jobs that can use it are a tank and a mage.

Mandau, like excalibur, is a situation where yes, if the new job had it, it would likely be stronger than the old jobs. However, like excalibur, this has nothing to do with mandau itself; dnc is simply stronger than thf, brd, and rdm, in terms of DD (though with thf, it's always debatable and situational). Due to that, it really doesn't warrant a need for stat changes or weakening just to allow dnc to use it, that wouldn't suddenly change anything.

As for Ragnarok and Rune Fencer; Rune Fencer is going to be a tank. Tanks do not out damage DD jobs. This is a fact. There is no balance issue giving Rune Fencer access to Ragnarok, especially since it's intended to be the Premier Greatsword job.

For the matter of Sch and Geomancer, they're MAGE JOBS. Back line jobs. They don't melee. How in the world would having access to Claustrum (or in geomancer's case, possibly Mjollnir) suddenly change this? It wouldn't. They don't/won't have access to the gear and abilities required to make melee work. It's really rather silly to even consider it an issue.

thus; SE's logic is absolutely flawed, and they're giving us a cop out answer saying "but we balanced it around the first 15, it'd be unbalanced if we added new jobs" because no, it absolutely would not. Nothing would change, except that the jobs currently not able to use relic weapons would now have them as an option.

Q.E.D.

[Kojo]

Theytak just put into words what I'd screw up if I tried to do the same. Agreed 100%.

[Zhronne]

Stringing Pummel is about the same level of power as Victory Smite
Thought it was slightly behind, but yeah they're more or less the same
Actually the tests where SP was a bit behind have been done with the "old" Vsmite. They lowered the crit rate now so you're probably right actually.
But even before the difference was very small anyway. Spummel is a fookin awesome WS and we've always known that :),


Even if we had access to spharai, we'd still never out damage a mnk in zerg situations
Well yeah. Altough -delay makes little difference when you reach the attack rate cap I guess.
But still, we have lower skill, worse gear options blah blah.
Which is especially why the attack on Spharai would be helpful imho, not forgetting the base weapon damage.
Tbh that's what I was thinking of mainly when I said Spharai would be an awesome weapon for PUP, imho better than Verethragna.
Didn't even think about the Counter thing but yeah, that would be an additional nice thing that, honestly, would hardly make a difference, just like you said <3
Another aspect to consider in Relic vs Empyreal for the average player is that you can easily bring Relic to 95, whereas Empyreal is much more likely to stay at 90. Of course this isn't even a variable to consider for "pro" players, I suppose.

Now get me a KKK Theytak <3<3<3

[Theytak]

Thought it was slightly behind, but yeah they're more or less the same
Actually the tests where SP was a bit behind have been done with the "old" Vsmite. They lowered the crit rate now so you're probably right actually.
But even before the difference was very small anyway. Spummel is a fookin awesome WS and we've always known that :),


Well yeah. Altough -delay makes little difference when you reach the attack rate cap I guess.
But still, we have lower skill, worse gear options blah blah.
Which is especially why the attack on Spharai would be helpful imho, not forgetting the base weapon damage.
Tbh that's what I was thinking of mainly when I said Spharai would be an awesome weapon for PUP, imho better than Verethragna.
Didn't even think about the Counter thing but yeah, that would be an additional nice thing that, honestly, would hardly make a difference, just like you said <3
Another aspect to consider in Relic vs Empyreal for the average player is that you can easily bring Relic to 95, whereas Empyreal is much more likely to stay at 90. Of course this isn't even a variable to consider for "pro" players, I suppose.

Now get me a KKK Theytak <3<3<3

VS was slightly ahead against higher def mobs initially, before the nerf, but now SP has a significant advantage in crit rate at 100%, which gives it the slight edge. As for KKK, at delay cap, the reason they're amazing lies in the 30% boost to SP damage, and situationally, intelligent use of AM3. And no, if I get my hands on them, they're mine. You keep your grubby little paws off. Mine.

[Nala]

While we understand that you (SE) grasp the game from a programming standpoint and understand the game as a whole...... on paper. What a vast majority of the player base questions is, do any of you actually play the game?
To further clarify that, do any of you actually play the game as freethinking individuals seeking character growth? We want to know if anyone that has any part in the design process there actually plays the game as a game player would in it's current state.
You claim to understand the game when clearly you only understand the concept of the game and not the game itself.

This so much... about the only advantage i could see cor gaining is the racc and attack coupled with the 3x proc which is nice but not overwhelming not to mention that cor does not get access to high tier ammo.

Also given that most cor's tend to supplement their TP gain via quick draw the additional stats and hidden effects of the annihilator provide only a marginal boost at the lost of stats relevant to QD itself (aka the agi on armagedeon)

The only other advantage a relic has over an empyrean is the fact that you can easily make a 95 after the currency stage VS your own cock block of 95 trial on empy's 1500 HMP.

Can the dev team please come up with a VERY logical and technical counter point to anything i've just said? i'd wager my own annihilator (if i could give it away) that you cannot because there is no counter.



Ok, since I have several hours to kill while I reinstall the test server client, let's consider this stuff:

To Cover:
- Thf vs Dnc, if Mandau (Neither rdm nor brd are really worth comparing here, the obvious issue is that they think dnc will dethrone thf)
- Rng vs Cor, if Annihilator
- Mnk vs Pup, if Spharai
- Pld vs Blu, if Excalibur (again, not worth comparing rdm numbers)
additionally, sch isn't worth the time, because lolschmelee, and lolclaustrum

Now, Thf vs Dnc is a fair argument, in that dnc, realistically, has a much larger supply of DD abilities, and, on paper, has a roughly equal, or even higher, damage potential. That said, with how intense reinstalling the test server is on my computer (seriously, 1.6~2GIG zip files?), I can't be bothered to math out the specifics, because of the lag, but I may later on.

Rng vs Cor, really, isn't a question of who can put out more damage; that is, unquestioningly, rng, due to the difference in abilities, as well as the still rather obnoxious gap in ammo (rng only ammo has much higher dmg than rng/cor ammo). In fact, level 99 Annihilator (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Annihilator_%28Level_99%29) and level 99 Armageddon (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Armageddon_%28Level_99%29) have exactly the same dmg (76) and delay (582) ratings, which means that Cor's quickdraw would gain no additional benefit from having Annihilator over Armageddon, nor would cor suddenly have access to a high damage weapon with a different TP return. Now, annihilator is the stronger gun for shooting, yes, because of the 40 r.acc, 30 r.atk, and perpetual Occasionally Deals Triple Damage, however, Coronach vs Wildfire is a very bizarre situation, because Coronach's strength isn't so much it's damage, as that it gives a set (and very low) amount of enmity, and the aftermath lowers enmity generation further. This is very powerful for rng, but really, these days, most cors who are playing DD are doing it with an Armageddon and riding wild fire, and they're not likely to pull more hate than a rng.

Next up, Mnk vs Pup. I've already explained this one a bit; Spharai is a very powerful weapon for mnk, and it would be very powerful for pup as well, but currently, pup is physically incapable of surpassing mnk's damage output in any melee damage situation, due to the way the job works. Spharai won't change that. Besides, Kenkonken would still be stronger for pup. Now, it is worth considering that Spharai is also a defensive weapon, to some degree (13% counter is rather nice, but it's no burtgang, that's a nearly pure defensive weapon), and final heaven is rather irrelevant because its aftermath is subtle blow+10, and anything worth fighting these days has stupid amounts of regain anyway. However, due to pup's evasion, it's not as able to take advantage of the 13% counter, and since it doesn't have any counter damage+ gear, a base counter rate, or much at all in the way of counter gear, it's not exactly a huge benefit for pup.

Finally, Pld vs Blu. Blu's gonna out damage pld, there's not really any question here, because pld's a tank, and blu's a DD. The only redeeming features on Excalibur are it's dmg rating, the 40 atk, OD2.5x, and Additional Effect. Knights of Round is absolute garbage, and the aftermath is a rather lackluster 10 HP/tick regen (which blu can easily beat with spells). Honestly, this poor weapon could really benefit from blu being able to use it; it's not like pld or rdm are actually able to use it to its full DD potential anyway. It's a little depressing, honestly.

Thus;

Annihilator and Spharai would need absolutely no change to their stats if cor and pup (respectively) were added, as it would not influence the damage gap between cor and rng or mnk and pup in any way, shape, or form.

Excalibur is really in desperate need of having a real DD job that can use it, because it's so sad to see such a potentially strong weapon (KoR aside) getting left behind simply because the only jobs that can use it are a tank and a mage.

Mandau, like excalibur, is a situation where yes, if the new job had it, it would likely be stronger than the old jobs. However, like excalibur, this has nothing to do with mandau itself; dnc is simply stronger than thf, brd, and rdm, in terms of DD (though with thf, it's always debatable and situational). Due to that, it really doesn't warrant a need for stat changes or weakening just to allow dnc to use it, that wouldn't suddenly change anything.

As for Ragnarok and Rune Fencer; Rune Fencer is going to be a tank. Tanks do not out damage DD jobs. This is a fact. There is no balance issue giving Rune Fencer access to Ragnarok, especially since it's intended to be the Premier Greatsword job.

For the matter of Sch and Geomancer, they're MAGE JOBS. Back line jobs. They don't melee. How in the world would having access to Claustrum (or in geomancer's case, possibly Mjollnir) suddenly change this? It wouldn't. They don't/won't have access to the gear and abilities required to make melee work. It's really rather silly to even consider it an issue.

thus; SE's logic is absolutely flawed, and they're giving us a cop out answer saying "but we balanced it around the first 15, it'd be unbalanced if we added new jobs" because no, it absolutely would not. Nothing would change, except that the jobs currently not able to use relic weapons would now have them as an option.

Q.E.D.

Meh some one said it already in far greater detail and covering all the important points... rather well put, even if i do not always agree with you (in my head do not think i've actually posted contrary to you)

quoted just because i needs to be read.

.

[Economizer]

Whm's got a lot of unique shit, like cure skin, respectable light damage nukes (due to solace), an untouchable throne as the best healer in the game, stupid amounts of mp efficiency, lots of unique party buffs (auspice, pro/shell -ra lines, boost- line, which is unique from rdm because rdm is self-only), as well as all one of rdm's new, unique debuffs (addle). Whm is the strongest healer, the strongest magical buffer outside of embrava, and the strongest mage physically (ie: ability to melee). WHM is sitting on Mary Sue levels of "unique and special" and it really wouldn't suffer at all if it lost some of that. Sorry, econ, I like you, and I think you're a very intelligent guy, but whm is just a little OP right now. They have no place to be bitching about losing one of their many unique/special toys.

The unique thing was only part of the points given really, so regardless of whether it holds merit (and it certainly does hold a lot of strength in the hearts of a lot of White Mages who like the ability to melee), the bigger issue at hand here is that Scholar basically only uses TWO hammers, and one of them is an all jobs weapon. If this was a Relic Wand, I might even be promptly defeated in a puff of logic, but this thing is the Relic Hammer.

I could give a lengthy explanation for why White Mage is not infact overpowered - and most of it would be explaining the way Cure III/IV function and healing in general, and even a bit of comparison to some very powerful jobs, but ultimately much of this goes to flavor of the game as well, such as the compelling sounding arguments people are making for some other relics not necessarily making sense to share in certain cases.

We'll come to Geomancer arguments when we see them, assuming the job itself is very club oriented and uses lots of hammers. Of course, before we ever see it on the Relic, I'd expect to see it on the Empyrean weapon, and the respective Magian trials. Gambanteinn, for example, would probably better serve a job that doesn't have Mystic Boon and Curaga. If Geomancer is infact a club job but doesn't use hammers, I'd imagine it would still deserve Gambanteinn since it isn't strictly a hammer style club despite the damage ratings on it. But for all we know it can be another Staff job like Scholar, it is hard to say at this point.

While I'm more willing to take SE on their opinions with the Relics (maybe with a push for a few new ones like a wand/knife/and a few throwing slot items), I'm thinking that the Empyrean weapons would be more suited to new jobs more blindly in general.

It's still hard to say though, although this is a collaborative vision because of the nature of FFXI, they still have yet to tell us the complete picture on their part of the story on these new jobs.

[SpankWustler]

In addition to the aforementioned reason, in order to make it possible for these jobs to equip relic weapons, we would have to make changes to the current stats on relic weapons, and since this would affect other jobs as well it is not such a simple thing to do. This doesn't just pertain to only adjustments, the same can be said for if we were to add new weapons, as they would affect currently existing items.

Maybe I picked from the same mushroom patch as the Development Bros this morning, because I get a feeling this is referring to weapon type rather than any bonuses on the weapons. Just the damage and the delay and nothing else. This sounds ridiculous, but it's how the Development Bros roll sometimes.

In some cases, like Mjollinir being a goofy-looking-hammer or Spharai being "heavier" than anything Puppetmaster usually uses, the relics are a certain weapon type that comes with a certain damage and delay that's unique to that sub-type of weapon. I could understand reservations about giving Puppermaster a weapon with significantly different damage and delay compared to what the job usually uses.

I think those reservations are unfounded based on anything related to math or numbers or logic or stuff that players like, but, I get that those reservations would exist.

But, that leaves another conundrum. Mandau and Twashtar are exactly the same type of dagger, going by the delay. Claustrum and Hvergilmir are exactly the same type of staff, going by the delay.Anhilator and Armageddon have exactly the same damage and delay! I can go on, but those were the high points just now.

So, I've just made myself even more confused with my guess just now.

Could you please give us an example of how a weapon would need to be changed if a post-Treasures of Aht Urhgan job were added to it?

Whatever metric the Development Bros are using, it is not a metric that we Player Bros can figure out. Nothing mathematical points to more jobs on current weapons breaking anything, or even changing anything at all outside of the Puppetmaster and Spharai example.

[Theytak]

I thought about the weapon type idea, and it made sense for blu and pup. Until Trials of the Magians took it and through weapon types out the window. Dnc has always been able to use parrying knives (mandau's type), and there's not much rhyme/reason to which non-hexagun guns cor can/cannot use.

[Economizer]

Until Trials of the Magians took it and through weapon types out the window.

Kinda reminds me of my suggestions to get BLU and maybe even PLD on the non-Empyrean Magian Clubs just like WHM/RDM/BRD are on the Staff weapons, although this was when BLU still had a drought on new wands.


I thought about the weapon type idea, and it made sense for blu and pup.

Still, we shouldn't go around letting a handful of screwups mess up the carefully and meticulously constructed world we have. While Blue Mage is arguably on a bunch of non-curvy Swords even early on, how many... whatever Puppetmaster doesn't use usually does it end up on?

Maybe this leads room for a bunch of silly Relics-style things (and who knows if they'd be in Dynamis or somewhere else) in the style of the Relic Horn - a Relic Attachment/Frame/Animator (PUP), a Relic Chakram (BLU/DNC, and give BLU some freaking throwing skill), a Relic Grimmore (SCH), and maybe a few more. Of course, we can still evaluate putting certain jobs on weapons that make sense for them, like arguing for Scholar on Claustrum, or maybe Runic Knight on Ragnarok, but a few mistakes in job labeling shouldn't throw away years of work making a cohesive world.

[Theytak]

Kinda reminds me of my suggestions to get BLU and maybe even PLD on the non-Empyrean Magian Clubs just like WHM/RDM/BRD are on the Staff weapons, although this was when BLU still had a drought on new wands.



Still, we shouldn't go around letting a handful of screwups mess up the carefully and meticulously constructed world we have. While Blue Mage is arguably on a bunch of non-curvy Swords even early on, how many... whatever Puppetmaster doesn't use usually does it end up on?

Maybe this leads room for a bunch of silly Relics-style things (and who knows if they'd be in Dynamis or somewhere else) in the style of the Relic Horn - a Relic Attachment/Frame/Animator (PUP), a Relic Chakram (BLU/DNC, and give BLU some freaking throwing skill), a Relic Grimmore (SCH), and maybe a few more. Of course, we can still evaluate putting certain jobs on weapons that make sense for them, like arguing for Scholar on Claustrum, or maybe Runic Knight on Ragnarok, but a few mistakes in job labeling shouldn't throw away years of work making a cohesive world.

Based on progression, these would be the stats on the Relic Animator:

Ghatsad's Animator:
Allows the use of Maneuver abilities
Hidden effect: DEX+8

[Kitkat]

Twashtar and Mandau are identical in delay/dmg by 99 making the only outstanding difference between the two is that one has +20dex and unique WS rudra's storm, the other has +40att, poison add effect (big whoop) and hidden 3x dmg at ~13% proc on first hit of every round with the weapon.

Now lets compare: Mercy stroke +40% dmg mildly beats out Rudra's storm only when used at 100~200%, at 200+ Rudra's comes out the victor. As stated before the 3x damage hidden procs only on first hit of every round making it only a 13% proc if there is no da/ta hits and becomes lower if you base it on attacks rather than round, Aftermath of Rudra's procs on all hits of the weapon and is ODD. One it str based, other is dex based....and both suck a good deal without forced crit hit abilities. Last but not least, in offhand +20 dex still works.....for mandau not a god damn thing works it is just a 55dmg/178delay dagger

As far as I'm concerned, but 99 these weapons are equal in overall utility. I'm not sure how this will make a dnc stronger than a thf given the fact it is roughly the exact same thing as emp just has more restrictions on it.

[Fupafighter]

Anyone saving over 100 tp is dumb.

[Dawnn]

Anyone saving over 100 tp is dumb.

moonshade earring and tp bonus fusetto say hi
although STR thokcha is pretty powerful so its a moot point
edit: and 300% tp from dusty wings in voidwatch

[Kojo]

Still no response from a Rep... Pooey!

[Winrie]

I hope they do reply, with a thread lock, there's way too many tears here, crying will change nothing, nor will excessive bitching. Make empys, that's what they were designed for, so everyone could have an ultimate weapon.

[Kojo]

I hope they do reply, with a thread lock, there's way too many tears here, crying will change nothing, nor will excessive bitching. Make empys, that's what they were designed for, so everyone could have an ultimate weapon.

Except they said the new jobs won't have access to Empys.

[Demon6324236]

I hope they do reply, with a thread lock, there's way too many tears here, crying will change nothing, nor will excessive bitching. Make empys, that's what they were designed for, so everyone could have an ultimate weapon.

If you meant Mythics, not worth making a Mythic right now for most jobs. Only Mythics worth making are PUP & WHM, if they fix Mythics, Ill get right on that.

[sc4500]

So SE said in a interview that Geo and Rune fencer will not be able to use Relics and Empyrean weapons.

Either way the issue as a whole.

Firstly DNC and SCH

These 2 jobs fit the lore of relic weapons massively so i really think at the least DNC should be able to use mandau and SCH should be able to use club or staff

Now PUP COR and BLU

All 3 Weapons wouldn't make any of the jobs overpowered but the gun would help COR alot when wildfire (it's prome source of DMG) isn't available either way i think BLU is a skilled enough swordsman to weild an Excalibur and COR gunman to weild Annihilator and PUP worth enough to wield the hand 2 hand.

Finally GEO and RUN

They definitely should have the option to wield empyrean the gsd emp and staff emp arn't ground breaking weapons so i see no reason why they shouldn't have emps

Then Relics well it depends w/ the above if BLU COR and PUP get access so should GEO and RUN

Honestly only having mythics as a final weapon is kinda sad :(


In summary my suggestion is this

There should a be a relic and empyrean for every job in the game

Simple part is square is to lazy to just dupe there own items (that people are hacking and doing there work for them) and add a few stats, and they like to give the players a run about , only thing we got hope is on the new producer is keen on stuff and understands the player base. I bet it is the Ps2 limits holding this game back for the next 10 yrs.

I hate say this but skyrim got a million times more graphics power then ff11 when using on the xbox or the pc.

[Zhronne]

If you meant Mythics, not worth making a Mythic right now for most jobs. Only Mythics worth making are PUP & WHM, if they fix Mythics, Ill get right on that.
Well I wouldn't be so hasty on Mythics. Let's leave aside for a second the very important factor that atm they're over 600mils each and a ton of other work.
With this premise, remember that they got patched, the 300% TP bonus is much more powerful now, and the mythic WS got two buffs on the way to 99.
Death Penalty is not that bad.
Terpsichore is a nice weapon I thought? DD-wise probably not as good as a Twashtar, but overall it's a nice weapon (and it looks good!)
Glanzfaust is, imho, a highly underestimated and under-tested weapon. It has some great potential and in some situations it can imho easily surpass Spharai and Verethragna.
Conqueror was always considered to be an awesome Great Axe I thought?
Kogarasumaru hasn't been thoroughfully tested either, but now that SAMs can use Shoha it could potentially be the best sam GKT out of the three.
Leviathan too is the best staff for Meteor, and with aftermath up I think it's slightly better than lv99 magian staves? (and inventory +7!)
Nirvana is a fantastic weapon for SMN.
Aymur is, well, try to say the name close to a BST and see how they react :P
Burtgang is... uh... it would be an excellent weapon in theory, it's just that atm PLD, the role it's supposed to cover and the way it's supposed to cover it are all broken.
A PLD who wants to tank these days would probably gain better benefit from an Almace's CDC and the damage it does (with the consequent enmity). Also, Atonement used to be awesome at 75 but since then SE appearently added a lot of stuff that resists Atonement damage =/ Now if requiescat was as awesome as CDC things could be different, but alas it's not the case.

So yeah, imho there are quite a bit of really nice Mythic weapons.

[Demon6324236]

They are good, but worth 600Mil on a single jobs weapon? Not imo. Actually I did forget DRG's though, so far as I know it kicks ass just like PUP's, I am not a WHM person but I see WHM Mythics all over the place by compare so I figure they are probably good too. Anything else I have either never seen at all or doesn't look worth 600Mil to me.

[Zhronne]

They are good, but worth 600Mil on a single jobs weapon?
The value of items and the value of gil is a very subjective thing.
If it's my opinion you ask, I would have no doubts in saying that no, it's absolutely not worth.
But I guess everybody has the right to see this differently according to the value they give to all these things :P

If we're comparing level 99 weapons that's the approximate cost for them
Relic: 180mils
Mythic: 600mils
Empyreal: 250mils
Only big difference I can see is in the post 75 trials, the Mythic ones are very easy and you can get to lv99 with little effort. Last trial you can farm on your own and then pug, there's not a big market for those items, wether you want to buy them or sell them.
Relic trials are easy up to 95, but you need roughly 65 more mils for the last trial. Much harder to pug this step compared to Mythic. There is quite a decent market for these items no matter if you want to sell or buy.
With Empy you get basically stuck at 90, following two steps are worth roughly ~180mils and ~60mils respectively.

We'll see what happens with the Salvo reform later this year, but I doubt they'll go THAT far. What I expect is for alex price to go down to 400mils at best.

And yeah, I forgot Ryunohige as well, it's supposedly the best DRG polearm if I recall?

[Nala]

If you meant Mythics, not worth making a Mythic right now for most jobs. Only Mythics worth making are PUP & WHM, if they fix Mythics, Ill get right on that.

Eh i was under impression that the ryunohige (dragon's wisker/mustache/beard) is quite potent along with the GKT (i can never spell it right from memory) thats at 99 however which once you are past the alex and quest lines is relatively easy.

[kyomi]

Anyone saving over 100 tp is dumb.

Don't think that has anything to do with what they were relaying with the post. If anything it was to show how litle a difference it would make in a dnc's hand over a thf. If anything in most cases,outside of pdif or dDex, the weapons are virtually the same, the ws have similar pitfalls with the only decernable fact being odd aftermath compared to hidden effect. Even then that point can quikly become moot when insimilar situations an individual smart enough to use rudra at 300% then spam exent will quickly out parse the mandau wielding counter part.

Anyone comparing the daggers for utility function can't see where this unbalance is coming from. Similar equiped dnc using a mandau compaered to a thf is moot when outside of stacked with ja the ws is absolute trash compared to exent spam. Dnc will just have the option of not needing a ws to see the hidden dmg which can be overtaken by emp aftermath very easy...especially in zerg situations or low time high d output spurts. I think someone even did some calculations that showed that odd already trumps relic hidden in most any situation aside from times when you can't activate aftermath.....which is rare if ever.

[Fupafighter]

moonshade earring and tp bonus fusetto say hi
although STR thokcha is pretty powerful so its a moot point
edit: and 300% tp from dusty wings in voidwatch

I'll say it again, saving over 100 tp is pointless. If you get the extra tp, so be it, but damn just ws whenever you get it.

[Fupafighter]

Dnc isn't going to get mandau. It really is too powerful. Throw a dnc and thf into a lowman situation and I guarentee that dnc wins with just twash 90.

[Byrth]

Dnc isn't going to get mandau. It really is too powerful. Throw a dnc and thf into a lowman situation and I guarentee that dnc wins with just twash 90.

How is it "too powerful?" How do you even determine what is "too powerful?" You say the job is "too powerful" because it can beat a THF's damage in lowman situations. Well, SE has repeatedly insisted that THF's primary utility is Treasure Hunter, so I think it's stupid to use their damage as the upper limit of what power is reasonable.

I say that DNC isn't "too powerful" because it doesn't rival Monk unless you're fighting something Piercing weak in lowman situations. Giving us Mandau isn't going to suddenly make the job more useful or more used. It's just going to give me something to blow my gil on for a month or two.

[Fupafighter]

How is it "too powerful?" How do you even determine what is "too powerful?" You say the job is "too powerful" because it can beat a THF's damage in lowman situations. Well, SE has repeatedly insisted that THF's primary utility is Treasure Hunter, so I think it's stupid to use their damage as the upper limit of what power is reasonable.

I say that DNC isn't "too powerful" because it doesn't rival Monk unless you're fighting something Piercing weak in lowman situations. Giving us Mandau isn't going to suddenly make the job more useful or more used. It's just going to give me something to blow my gil on for a month or two.

I just feel in lowman situations w.o relying on other peoples buffs, that dnc is just superior as is. My dnc with just 85 twash destroys basically all but heavy DD, and has the utility to take no damage the whole time too. Mandau just seems like it would be unbalanced. More power to dnc though I guess >.>

[FrankReynolds]

I just feel in lowman situations w.o relying on other peoples buffs, that dnc is just superior as is. My dnc with just 85 twash destroys basically all but heavy DD, and has the utility to take no damage the whole time too. Mandau just seems like it would be unbalanced. More power to dnc though I guess >.>

Why wouldn't your dnc destroy everything but heavy DD? WHat else is there? mages?

[Demon6324236]

Why wouldn't your dnc destroy everything but heavy DD? WHat else is there? mages?

RDM THF PLD BST RNG NIN BLU PUP

[FrankReynolds]

RDM THF PLD BST RNG NIN BLU PUP

Is there some reason that any of those jobs should deal better damage? they all appear to be hybrid jobs with (somewhat lame) other roles besides DD just like dancer.

[Fupafighter]

Why wouldn't your dnc destroy everything but heavy DD? WHat else is there? mages?
You know what, who cares. Would just mean dnc would be making a bit more currency in dyna. Not like anyone uses the job for anything else these days.

[FrankReynolds]

You know what, who cares. Would just mean dnc would be making a bit more currency in dyna. Not like anyone uses the job for anything else these days.

Pretty much.

[Theytak]

Is there some reason that any of those jobs should deal better damage? they all appear to be hybrid jobs with (somewhat lame) other roles besides DD just like dancer.

I'm not really sure how a rng or a blu wouldn't be outdamaging a dnc, unless they were terrible at their jobs, or how rng is anything other than a heavy dd to begin with.

[FrankReynolds]

I'm not really sure how a rng or a blu wouldn't be outdamaging a dnc, unless they were terrible at their jobs, or how rng is anything other than a heavy dd to begin with.

They have treasure hunter now, which means they have to suck. Balance! /sarcasm

None of the role those jobs fill are threatened by dnc doing %3 more (guessing. has anyone ever actually done the math?) damage. They all have other stuff that they do, that (supposedly) get's them into the alliance, or allows them to get by without.

Mandau doesn't add treasure hunter effect, give additional levels of dual wield, allow dancer to do damage from a distance, cast spells or any other thing that steps on the toes of those other jobs.

It's really not much difference balance wise. But it does give dancers a new carrot and thf who already own one some extra mileage.

[Chamaan]

Okay so, completely throwing aside the cop out of "Puppetmasters shouldn't have Spharai because counter because balance because apricots in spring." What's stopping them from adding new Relics? Yeah they wanted one for each weapon type, but there's not a relic for each weapon type. Bards get a relic that goes in the ranged slot. Why can't the jobs that don't have a relic right now?

-Make a relic chakram that has some awesome bonus like super potent Abs-TP and give it to Dancer.
-Give Pup a relic animator (people have been asking for one since forever).
-Scholar can have a relic book like our Empyrean ammo item.
-Cors would sure love to have a super keen relic bullet that can't be fired/used in WS, so long as it does fantastic things to Quick Draw (especially since they still want to change QD).
-For Blu... Ionno. Give them a fork, like Quina in FFIX.
-Looking ahead, Geomancers are getting bells, and Rune Fencers can have like crests or something.

Look at that. Weapon types for relics that you can make job exclusive all you want. Or don't. I'm sure Blms, Smns, and Whms would love to have a relic that doesn't require TP to do things. Give them the book too.

I just want to point out that most of those are things people have been asking for in forums for a long time. These aren't new ideas. Can we get an answer why new ammo/ranged slot relics aren't already in development?

[Ordoric]

na na sch need a relic spell i mean they got a AF spell and whm got a hammer blm got a wand lol

[Demon6324236]

na na sch need a relic spell i mean they got a AF spell and whm got a hammer blm got a wand lol

Admittedly I would have preferred if Meteor was a Relic spell for BLM, and it was effective alone, but more people still made it awesome, rather than now where its worthless alone. But thats just me.

[Ordoric]

i always viewd meteor as a rdm spell lol

[Demon6324236]

Honestly I knew Meteor was for BLM, but I did kinda expect something like Impact would be for RDM, enfeebling + damage ya know?