DRK is 3x more OP than vanilla WAR's Ukko's Fury

[Meldity]

i'm getting kind of tired of seeing the endless drk's with great swords in jueno from the community forcing it down their throats.

[Komori]

I have a DRK in my LS that rocks out 95 and is parsing pretty well in events too. Not once have I ever heard him turned away because he uses his scythe over Reso.

[Unctgtg]

I will continue to use my 99 Apoc over all GSs I have.

[Smeggles]

I will continue to use all THREE of my 2 handed weapons. (not to mention the other one handed weapons I use)

Picking one weapon and sticking to it adamantly is a sign of laziness.

[Radd]

2008: I'm getting kind of tired of seeing the endless SAMs with Haguns in Jeuno from the community forcing it down their throats.

2011: I'm getting kind of tired of seeing the endless WARs with Ukonvasara in Jeuno from the community forcing it down their throats.

The cycle continues. Dark Knight finally gets a moment to shine that isn't Kclub 2 hour nonsense, and you complain?

I use both Scythe and GS. I liked the style of GS more. Subduer used to be my main weapon.

[Ryanx]

I have Apoc 95 I love it but I like useing GS also unfortunatly my best GS atm is Gram it is decent GS able to do a 5 hit build with it

[SNK]

Wasn't there a lot of bitching about how DRK's were sucking dick compared to all these Ukko war in the 1st place?

[Komori]

No matter how things change or others higher up try to 'fix' things, some will always complain.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Wasn't there a lot of bitching about how DRK's were sucking dick compared to all these Ukko war in the 1st place?

Yes, lolDRK being the usual reference..

[saevel]

DRK's didn't have a 2H crit WS nor any extremely restrictive procs. Thus in abyssea they were mostly ignored in favor of proc friendly jobs or jobs with crit WS that did insane damage. Voidwatch is all about zerging something dead in 120s or less while riding fanatics and procing like crazy. DRK/WAR with Berserk, Last Resort, Stalwarts, March's, Minutes and food can hit ridiculous levels of attack. Some of the higher end mobs have high defense / evasion and thus a Soul Eater Resolution spamming DRK/WAR does insane damage on them.

Next year something else will be the "in" thing and life will move on.

[Calamity]

DRK's didn't have a 2H crit WS nor any extremely restrictive procs. Thus in abyssea they were mostly ignored in favor of proc friendly jobs or jobs with crit WS that did insane damage. Voidwatch is all about zerging something dead in 120s or less while riding fanatics and procing like crazy. DRK/WAR with Berserk, Last Resort, Stalwarts, March's, Minutes and food can hit ridiculous levels of attack. Some of the higher end mobs have high defense / evasion and thus a Soul Eater Resolution spamming DRK/WAR does insane damage on them.

Next year something else will be the "in" thing and life will move on.

All this, but let's not forget we also give that nice extra 10% attack to chaos roll. Cor party forever. ^^

[Taint2]

The sad part is a WAR using a Greatsword > a DRK using a Greatsword > a DRK using a Scythe.

[Babekeke]

Quick question about DRK in VW... does fanatics prevent HP lost from Souleater? I saw a mild reference to it in one of these threads, but it doesn't seem like it would make sense for fanatics rather than fools. The reference was something along the lines of "A DRK using souleater under the effect of fanatics or perfect defense..." though it might have just meant that you can't kill yourself with it under those conditions and you still need cure bombs, idk.

[saevel]

Quick question about DRK in VW... does fanatics prevent HP lost from Souleater? I saw a mild reference to it in one of these threads, but it doesn't seem like it would make sense for fanatics rather than fools. The reference was something along the lines of "A DRK using souleater under the effect of fanatics or perfect defense..." though it might have just meant that you can't kill yourself with it under those conditions and you still need cure bombs, idk.

No it doesn't prevent HP loss from soul eater. What it does do is prevent the DRK from dieing when their HP is going down during the NMs super aoe moves. SE and Fanatics both have the same duration of 60s, so if you pop SE right before you pop Fanatics you should be protected the entire time. A good WHM will be cure bombing their parties DRK during that first 60s zerg time.

[Rezeak]

Indeed DRK is overpowered in Void watch just as a ukkos WAR is overpowered in abyssea outside of there it's alot closer.

btw if a DRK is 3x more powerful than a WAR then it's the person playing that WAR i've seen WARs get pretty close to Ragna DRK going all out.


The sad part is a WAR using a Greatsword > a DRK using a Greatsword > a DRK using a Scythe.

Only with 2hr tho after that DRK > WAR with GSD

[Taint2]

Only with 2hr tho after that DRK > WAR with GSD


The DRK in me wishes that was the true. The harder the mob the more GS favors WAR, especially Ragnarok. LR is the saving grace of DRK. (the minute its down really really hurts) Don't get me wrong there are situations where DRK beats WAR with a greatsword but most of the now content greatly favors WAR. (Watcher,Legion) Once you factor in WARs 2hr its not even close, but you know that already.

[saevel]

The DRK in me wishes that was the true. The harder the mob the more GS favors WAR, especially Ragnarok. LR is the saving grace of DRK. (the minute its down really really hurts) Don't get me wrong there are situations where DRK beats WAR with a greatsword but most of the now content greatly favors WAR. (Watcher,Legion) Once you factor in WARs 2hr its not even close, but you know that already.

Umm what ..

WAR/SAM
DRK/SAM

Both have a 3/5min 25% attack boost. WAR had DA, DRK has SE. And if your talking pure embrava / PD "zerg" then DRK/WAR has both Berserk and LR to go with their SE. WAR has aggressor but WAR also has less accuracy then DRK.

The only thing WAR has over DRK is MS / Savagery WC. MS can be done once per 2hr for insane numbers. Nice to have but I like to fight more then 1 NM per event day.

[Rezeak]

The harder the mob the more GS favors WAR, especially Ragnarok.

I don't get how tho if ya could explain.

w/ Legion we found DRK would destroy WARs mainly cause we PDed every mob and you can use Mighty strikes once but you can use Souleater every 5-6 mins.

[saevel]

I can't figure out what he's talking about ....

DRK has more attack then WAR so pDiff isn't a factor. Res isn't a crit WS so WAR's CAB II / Emp +2 boots aren't really a factor. Rag has +crit rate but crit rate has diminishing returns similar to DA, also both have similar gear options so that's not an issue.

And that's pretty much it outside of MS zerging which is once per 2hr.

[Taint2]

Here are numbers for you:

Fodder: (capped ACC and ATT no lvl correction)
DRK/SAM

Set 1 Set 2
672 628
467.920 279.760

5.35 4.83
3846 3809

7441 6843
581 771

768.433 532.813

Set 1 Set 2

72 38
687.037


WAR/SAM

Set 1 Set 2
682 650
441.759 421.379

4.71 4.71
4255 3812

7465 6874
556 556

805.557 741.789

Set 1 Set 2

72 38
783.528



High lvl mob (120lvl)

DRK/SAM
Great Sword Great Sword
Resolution Resolution
20% 20%
1 1


Set 1 Set 2
267 225
185.910 145.900

6.56 6.72
1241 1131

2992 2644
685 742

262.011 213.724

Set 1 Set 2

72 38
245.330

WAR/SAM

Great Sword Great Sword
Resolution Resolution
20% 20%

0 0
8.98% 8.98%


Set 1 Set 2
307 197
198.960 127.613

6.08 7.10
1506 808

3374 2207
683 778

296.293 170.274

Set 1 Set 2

72 38
252.759

DRK/WAR (what you should be for a 120lvl mob) (scewed because I have LR on the same up/down timer as zerk and agg, which will reduce the overall)

Great Sword Great Sword
Resolution Resolution
20% 20%
1 1


Set 1 Set 2
322 228
224.053 101.396

6.35 7.36
1521 1189

3566 2864
668 1112

320.425 154.619

Set 1 Set 2

72 38
263.147

[Babekeke]

Anyone understand that? it's all just numbers to me with no explanation of what they mean

[saevel]

He's copying from Moten's sheets, absolutely no context for where those numbers came from thus their open to manipulation / interpretation.

One thing I really don't like about Moten's sheets is there is no time limit. It's assuming a monster with infinite HP. Thus damage is averaged over the period of it's recast rather then over the actual length of the fight. Take a proper zerg, the NM is dead in under 3 min. Soul Eater's damage should then be averaged over the length of 3 min instead of it's recast of 6 min (if it was even taken into account to begin with). LR / Berserk / Aggressor and such should be counted full time as the entire fight was within their duration.

Also the context of this argument needs to be taken into account. As a job WAR tends to be more powerful then DRK over longer durations, DRK tends to be a monster in short burst damage scenarios. The only exception to this is during a MS / Savagery zerg which is once per 2hrs. The argument though was that WAR as better with a Ragnarok then a DRK was which is pretty false. There is nothing about Ragnarok that favors WAR over DRK, DRK's higher skill gives it more Attack / Acc with a Rag.

[wish12oz]

w/ Legion we found DRK would destroy WARs mainly cause we PDed every mob and you can use Mighty strikes once but you can use Souleater every 5-6 mins.

Teach your WARs to cycle Blood rage and you can keep it up 100% of every fight, that levels the playing field between WAR and DRK white damage, but WAR still has the superior 2 hour, Stronger WS, and sometimes loltomahawk.


The argument though was that WAR as better with a Ragnarok then a DRK was which is pretty false. There is nothing about Ragnarok that favors WAR over DRK, DRK's higher skill gives it more Attack / Acc with a Rag.

A 99 Ukon is also better than a 99 Ragnarok for WAR, except for some situations where mighty strikes is active. I dunno why you guys keep talking about GS WAR, but thats not what good WARs use 99% of the time.

And ya, Ragnarok is only better for WAR than DRK when Mighty Strikes is up, normally its not.


Anyone understand that? it's all just numbers to me with no explanation of what they mean

+1


i'm getting kind of tired of seeing the endless drk's with great swords in jueno from the community forcing it down their throats.

I also get tired of seeing people try and do the best they can, and not using lame scythes just cause they look darker and more goth/emo/whatever the crybaby kids are into and calling it these days like its a new trend.

[Luvbunny]

Why are people complaining that Dark is overpowered.... than Warrior. Big fckng deal lol. Some jobs are better for some situation, and a well geared player who knows how to play their jobs well always overpower the bandwagon ones. Next you know, all these haters will complaint about Perfect Defense and Embrava is overpowered, and then soon, Whm is overpowered as healer as well.

[Rezeak]

Taint those numbers mean very little to me since there's no context honetsly i'll just put it down to an opinion I disagree with.

Either way i think the point your trying to make is

When Haste, Atk and Acc is capped WAR > DRK with Ragna which is something i couldn't clearly tell ya cause in my experience of those place WAR will use a ukon over a ragna

But in most cases attack matters ALOT considering resolution attack penalty on the WS

w. attack bonus dif and skill it's 75 attack boost over WAR (13% attack bonus since it's applied before buffs)
then another 40-70 attack from endark.

Then your looking a even bigger difference when DRK is /WAR and i'm not talking about stacking LR and berserk i'm talking about staggering the recasts so that you always have a attack bonus up meaning at the least your couple 100 attack over a WAR and at other time you have 100+ 25% attack bonus over WS

As for acc it's not so hard to cap but there are still times it matters and when it does matter i'm sure DRK will pull ahead vs a Ragna WAR.

As a summary in my opinion

When Attack, Acc or haste (any 1 of the 3) matters the DRK is better with a gsd than WAR with a gsd outside of 2hr

And from all the new content i've seen Limbus, Legion, Odin V2 ect attack and accuracy matters alot and there are mobs there that use dispel so haste matters as well.

As for WAR w/ Ukon vs DRK w/ Ragna i'd rather not discuss that on a forum lol

[saevel]

Then your looking a even bigger difference when DRK is /WAR and i'm not talking about stacking LR and berserk i'm talking about staggering the recasts so that you always have a attack bonus up meaning at the least your couple 100 attack over a WAR and at other time you have 100+ 25% attack bonus over WS

This depends on the situation. In zergs / smash fights you always stack berserk / LR as staggering them has no benefit. The fight should be over in 3min. Legion is the exception as it's nothing but a series of PD zergs and thus you will have a time when your damage goes down, that's the only time I would recommend staggering berserk such that it wears right when LR is up again.

For Ukon vs Rag, that really depends on the target. Rag has higher WSC and total fTP, Ukon can crit. If your target has a ton of LCF (120 for example) then the spike in pDiff from critical Ukon's will have them doing more then Res's.

2.2 - (1.05 LCF) = 1.15 as the highest cRatio you can get. A crit would make it 2.15, an 86.95% increase in damage before CAB it taken into account. That's where Ukon get's its strength from, those massive crits, especially on the first hit.

[Rezeak]

i was basing it off the situation i believed taints numbers were aimed at of a drawn out fight cause in a 1-3 min fight outside of using 2hr DRK has more of an advantage so i was discussing the case when DRK would actually be competing with WAR which is a drawn out fight.

Personally i have LR and SE recast merited 5/5 most of the time cause in general it's better for me tho it's not hard to switch for legion or playing /SAM considering the 30 merit cap and u only need 15 merits to switch.

[Detzu]

Teach your WARs to cycle Blood rage and you can keep it up 100% of every fight, that levels the playing field between WAR and DRK white damage, but WAR still has the superior 2 hour, Stronger WS, and sometimes loltomahawk.



A 99 Ukon is also better than a 99 Ragnarok for WAR, except for some situations where mighty strikes is active. I dunno why you guys keep talking about GS WAR, but thats not what good WARs use 99% of the time.

And ya, Ragnarok is only better for WAR than DRK when Mighty Strikes is up, normally its not.



+1



I also get tired of seeing people try and do the best they can, and not using lame scythes just cause they look darker and more goth/emo/whatever the crybaby kids are into and calling it these days like its a new trend.

I'm getting tired of people eyeballing on resolution dmg but aren't looking their white dmg/speed.

[saevel]

i was basing it off the situation i believed taints numbers were aimed at of a drawn out fight cause in a 1-3 min fight outside of using 2hr DRK has more of an advantage so i was discussing the case when DRK would actually be competing with WAR which is a drawn out fight.

Personally i have LR and SE recast merited 5/5 most of the time cause in general it's better for me tho it's not hard to switch for legion or playing /SAM considering the 30 merit cap and u only need 15 merits to switch.

Considering your using a -8% attack weapon skill, the extra 10% attack on LR tends to be worth more then 60s recast on SE, especially as you won't be riding SE outside of PD / Fanatics or if you got your own dedicated WHM.

[wish12oz]

I'm getting tired of people eyeballing on resolution dmg but aren't looking their white dmg/speed.

I'm not entirely sure what I said that you have a problem with, or why you think you can talk about 'eyeballing' and provide nothing to prove you're right, but perhaps you could be more specific and then get back to me so I can prove you wrong. All I'm saying is:

For WAR, Ukkos Fury will pull ahead of Resolution unless youre using mighty strikes, because it has a superior TP set or hit build or both, and will do barely less actual damage, which will amount to more damage over time because you will do more Ukkos than you would of done Resolutions.

Having WARs and using Blood rage on every mob in Legion will keep up with/surpass the gains from using Souleater every third mob.

The best WAR will outparse the best DRK.

Which of these do you have a problem with exactly?

[Siiri]

So a thread about drk being overpowered again ended with war being overpowered. Oh how the worm has turned. Keep talking about war being so overpowered maybe they will nerf it again. LOL

[wish12oz]

So a thread about drk being overpowered again ended with war being overpowered. Oh how the worm has turned. Keep talking about war being so overpowered maybe they will nerf it again. LOL

lol, that would suck. Maybe one day SE will learn that buffing weak jobs works out better than nerfing strong ones.

[Rezeak]

The best WAR will outparse the best DRK.
I disagree on this

personally i hate statements that A > B
back in abyssea where crit WS were king and Ukkos was the god of crit WSs this was true.

As far as I can tell atm

WAR is on the same level as DRK.

Either way WAR SAM and DRK are the top DDs in the game atm

As for my opinion SAM give me more competition than WARs

Now for the blood rage thing don't forget these 2 things Ragnarok has a 14% Crit rate bonus @ 99 and in Full buff situations DRK can have 15% haste in gear and stack DA TA QA and Crit rate depending on situation or even Dt gear if PD drops.

[scaevola]

lol, that would suck. Maybe one day SE will learn that buffing weak jobs works out better than nerfing strong ones.

it really doesn't

i know you want to believe it does but it doesn't

















would you believe world of warcraft was actually kind of difficult at one point

[StingRay104]

Now for the blood rage thing don't forget these 2 things Ragnarok has a 14% Crit rate bonus @ 99 and in Full buff situations DRK can have 15% haste in gear and stack DA TA QA and Crit rate depending on situation or even Dt gear if PD drops.

I find it interesting that back in the good ole days of 75, people who had Ragnarok put its crit rate at 15-20%. Now at level 99 its crit rate went from 15-20% to 14%. Perhaps wiki is just full of crap like usual.

As for the whole WAR vs DRK thing, heres my input. After taking a year off and getting back into the game I have found DRK only slightly better than when I left. I still see war performing basically the same. So neither of these jobs has progressed a reasonable fashion in the last year. This is a problem because war was overpowered when I left by a large margin, although I know it has been nerfed and since most endgame left abyssea it has had less impact on the endgame events. DRK has only progressed by getting a decent GS ws, which is not as strong as it needs to be still. SAM on the otherhand has become a very fluent job that works well with its design, however Tachi Godmode is broken. I think (and here comes the idea I've been stating for 2+years now) that DRK needs a major boost, as well as a clearly defined role. It is supposed to be about huge damage for great risk, and about weakening its enemies while strengthening itself. War is supposed to be a Jack of all trades, meaning it can tank if needed, while still offering comparable damage. Who knows maybe since FFXI is in the hands of the most awesome guy ever Akihiko Matsui we will finally see the adjustments we've been asking for, or perhaps they will make Rune Fencer so epic I could care less about DRK, I do love GS, always have been a GS DRK and always will, granted I do love my Twilight Scythe.

[Alistaire]

I will continue to use all THREE of my 2 handed weapons. (not to mention the other one handed weapons I use)

Picking one weapon and sticking to it adamantly is a sign of laziness.

Unless you have Apoc it's a sign of knowing what works best, outside of needing procs of course.

[wish12oz]

Ragnarok has a 14% Crit rate bonus @ 99

This is where I stopped caring what you think, because you outted yourself as having no idea whats going on. No intelligent DRK would ever use scourge.

[saevel]

This is where I stopped caring what you think, because you outted yourself as having no idea whats going on. No intelligent DRK would ever use scourge.

He's not talking about Scourge, that's only +5% crit rate. He's talking about the "Increases rate of Critical Hits V" that's on the weapon. At 95 it's +11% at 99 it's +14% and is a bonus that's always in effect.

WAR, DRK and SAM are about even depending on the situation. Like always WAR and DRK respond better to buffs while SAM tends to smack into a glass ceiling. Some scenarios favor WAR (legion), others favor DRK (voidwatch), in any situation your going to have multiple of both. They perform best when their in the same party for Chaos + Fighters.

GS has always had good melee damage, GS weaponskills sucked in the past which forced DRK's to use Guilly and WAR's to stick with RR. Now that a 5-hit 100% STR Great Sword WS exists both jobs can effectively use GS. Its just another tool in the toolbox of a good DD (who always has multiple ways of dealing death and destruction).

[scaevola]

This is where I stopped caring what you think, because you outted yourself as having no idea whats going on. No intelligent DRK would ever use scourge.

you are the living end, i swear

[wish12oz]

you are the living end, i swear

wwwwwwwwwwww

But really, I dunno why I was thinking that was the Scourge aftermath.

[Rezeak]

This is where I stopped caring what you think, because you outted yourself as having no idea whats going on. No intelligent DRK would ever use scourge.

Stuff like that is why i said


As for WAR w/ Ukon vs DRK w/ Ragna i'd rather not discuss that on a forum

Because of the way it gets

(Die hard DRK) DRK is better
(Die hard WAR) WAR is better
and repeat x 100.

In my opinion and from experience

As far as I've seen w/ legion DRKs do more DMG than WARs and i don't think cycling blood rage would change that but maybe we have alot of bad WARs on my server either way we are clearing legion and honestly that all that matters.

If we are winning by choosing DRKs over WARs (or our ukon wars going ragna drk cause they do more dmg that way) then it's the way it'll stay for our group anyway and like saev said we'll still have 1 cause the fighters roll bonus is worth it and it's not like there dealing bad dmg anyway.

and after all that i still don't want to say DRK > WAR cause it could be the WARs suck or that pple on our server only know how to play DRK or Ragnarok has a hidden effect if ya on the Ragnarok server but at the end of the day pple should have an open mind try w/ lots of WAR then lots of DRK and pick whats best for the group. also not to mention i don't have a 99 ukon and 99 rag so my opinion will definitely be onesided anyway.

[wish12oz]

(Die hard DRK) DRK is better
(Die hard WAR) WAR is better
and repeat x 100.

You can prove which is better with math. Just determine average damage per hit, average hits per round, and WS average for both, then use their delays to determine damage per minute or 5 minutes or whatever, and then compare the two.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

You can prove which is better with math. Just determine average damage per hit, average hits per round, and WS average for both, then use their delays to determine damage per minute or 5 minutes or whatever, and then compare the two.

Not unless you evened it out.

As it stands naked DRK would probably win, but who does it naked (alone they have more speed and more attack).

[wish12oz]

Not unless you evened it out.

Im not even sure what youre implying here, or why you think what I said wouldnt work.


As it stands naked DRK would probably win, but who does it naked (along they have more speed and more attack).

Unfortunately for DRK the best thing to do would be to compare the best possible sets with good buffs, meaning DRK would not win.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Im not even sure what youre implying here, or why you think what I said wouldnt work.



Unfortunately for DRK the best thing to do would be to compare the best possible sets with good buffs, meaning DRK would not win.

Well on a whole, it'd be hard to do so. How could you truly compare unless you got gear that matched perfectly. Comparing a DRK to WAR would only work when they matched in that.

[Rezeak]

You can prove which is better with math. Just determine average damage per hit, average hits per round, and WS average for both, then use their delays to determine damage per minute or 5 minutes or whatever, and then compare the two.

except your "math" that your using may prove WAR is better but i'm sure it's not enough to take in account of errors like fSTR, WS Delay, Ja Delay, Souleater Calc ect ect

Math is nice when you can prove say a WAR or DRK is better by like 10-20% but when it's as close as it is there is no way that simple models that you discribe prove anything.

I believe the reason DRK beats WAR in our run is prolly down to these reasons

First DRK attack 6% faster than WAR
Ukons are only lvl 90
Attack and ACC still matter in legion even w/ good buffs and DRK beats war on both
Also the mobs that dispel give a larger advantage to DRK
Then finally souleater on every other mob adds alot of DMG

The above reason are math but it's more logic than some rough model

If you could hold buffs WAR would stand a chance vs DRK i'm sure but since there is no down time on Berserk/Endark/Last Resort/Agg

[wish12oz]

Well on a whole, it'd be hard to do so. How could you truly compare unless you got gear that matched perfectly. Comparing a DRK to WAR would only work when they matched in that.

This cant be your real argument as the best gear for each job is different. All you would have to do is compare the best possible set for WAR vs best possible for DRK.


except your "math" that your using may prove WAR is better but i'm sure it's not enough to take in account of errors like fSTR, WS Delay, Ja Delay, Souleater Calc ect ect

You would solve for variables and see if anything matters. You would compare then at capped fSTR, low fSTR, capped pDIF, lowest estimated pDIF, lowest estimated pDIF with low and capped fSTR, etc. Or you could just skew the test in DRKs favor and watch WAR win anyway by saying pDIF and fSTR are always capped, even under the -8% attack from Resolution, thereby increasing DRKs WS damage and reducing the gains from critical hits WAR would get from full time blood rage.


Math is nice when you can prove say a WAR or DRK is better by like 10-20% but when it's as close as it is there is no way that simple models that you discribe prove anything.

You can prove under which circumstances one is better than the other.


I believe the reason DRK beats WAR in our run is prolly down to these reasons

First DRK attack 6% faster than WAR
Ukons are only lvl 90
Attack and ACC still matter in legion even w/ good buffs and DRK beats war on both
Also the mobs that dispel give a larger advantage to DRK
Then finally souleater on every other mob adds alot of DMG

The above reason are math but it's more logic than some rough model

I love how youre trying to dispute that math wont tell you the answer, when it will.


If you could hold buffs WAR would stand a chance vs DRK i'm sure but since there is no down time on Berserk/Endark/Last Resort/Agg

If you have no down time on your buffs, like berserk, why would a WAR have any down time for them like you're implying? That's just bad common sense.

When talking about legion, you keep all buffs all the time. Except for something like souleater with its 6 minute? recast that isnt AOE and only affects 1 person. You will only get 1 of those per (3 mob) wave, 2 if your group goes slow, but since we're talking about optimal performance, your group won't be slow, and youll get 1.

You would even keep Blood Rage the whole time since Im advocating 3 WARs 1 DRK vs your 3 DRKs 1 WAR. Each WAR can Blood Rage at the start of each mob each wave and it will be up 100% of the time. 4 people with Blood rage full time and 1 souleater should beat 3 people with souleater every 3rd mob and 4 with blood rage once a wave. Granted the DRK party has more ability to do massive damage to one single target each wave and take it down faster if they need it compared to WAR group, since all 3 could use souleater on a single mob and have blood rage for that mob if needed, but the WAR group should do more overall damage. I think this is the only spot where the DRK party really shines myself.

[saevel]

You can prove which is better with math. Just determine average damage per hit, average hits per round, and WS average for both, then use their delays to determine damage per minute or 5 minutes or whatever, and then compare the two.


Doesn't work that way. DD's don't fight brick walls with infinite HP pools.

WAR's and DRK's deal damage in phases based on their current buffs and the time until those buffs can be reapplied. If the NM dies before those buffs expire then the DD's would of dealt higher damage then the average your talking about. The longer the NM lives the more average those numbers look until the recast cycle is back up and the DD can rebuff themselves. Basically Berserk / Aggressor are only 3min with a recast greater then their duration.

The infinite HP brick wall method is a good way to find out X item being better then Y item in Z situation, it's a bad way to compare two different jobs.

[Rezeak]

When talking about legion, you keep all buffs all the time. Except for something like souleater with its 6 minute? recast that isnt AOE and only affects 1 person. You will only get 1 of those per (3 mob) wave, 2 if your group goes slow, but since we're talking about optimal performance, your group won't be slow, and youll get 1.

Legion is 30 mins

And you do not fight the mobs back to back (except when your trying to get PD to last 2 mobs)

30/6 = 5

On average you kill 6 + boss 7 mobs so getting 3-4 Souleater's off is not a bad estimate (well i've done it lol)

so yea souleater every 2 mobs a decent estimate since you do this

Buff (2-3 min to get all buff on)
Then PD Kill 1-2 mobs then rebuff then PD so by the next mob u have SE up

if you would tho i'd like to see you math workings for ukkos and resolution since what i get is Resolution is higher tho mine is very simple so wanna see if i missed something.

at 1.8 pdif

180STR + 143 * 5(0.94) * 0.92(1.8)
323 * 4.7 * 1.66 = 2520 for Resolution

0.6(200)str + 153 * 3.2 * (0.3(1.8) + 1.1(0.7(2.8))
273*3.2*(0.54+2.16)
273*3.2*2.60 = 2271 For ukkos

at 1.3 pdif (uncapped attack for sure)

180STR + 143 * 5(0.94) * 0.92(1.8)
323 * 4.7 * 1.66 = 2520 for Resolution

0.6(200)str + 153 * 3.2 * (0.3(1.8) + 1.2(0.7(2.8))
273*3.2*(0.54+2.35)
273*3.2*2.89 = 2524 For ukkos

180STR + 143 * 5(0.94) * 0.92(1.3)
323 * 4.7 * 1.19 = 1806 for Resolution

0.6(200)str + 153 * 3.2 * (0.3(1.3) + 1.2(0.7(2.3))
273*3.2*(0.39+1.93)
273*3.2*2.32 = 2026 For ukkos

Ofc this is very rough i gave Ukkos a 70% crit rate and 10% crit DMG tho to me it shows me there around equal unlike ur claim of stronger WS

Souleater and DA isn't factored in and the number are still high but i havn't corrected for Acc anyway

As for Blood rage like i said before it still doesn't beat the 2% haste advatage when u consider Ragna has 11-14% crit rate and a stronger/equal WS w/ Blood rage up for ukkos.

Also i'm implying downtime is bad for DRK really bad last resort Down time pretty much halfs our DMG if not more in that 1 min and 10 secs war downtime on buff is less detrimental on the job as say a DRK

[Meldity]

to be honest your gear only needs to be subpar and a high enough dark magic skill to stun legion mobs. the JP's practically just force all their melee into 5 drk's and 1 drg for angon+4-5 ramuh smns and a few cors. pretty much the only reason why drk is a big deal in every event is because of stun. also don't tell me anything about voidwatch, that event is for casuals only.

[wish12oz]

Legion is 30 mins

And you do not fight the mobs back to back (except when your trying to get PD to last 2 mobs)

30/6 = 5

On average you kill 6 + boss 7 mobs so getting 3-4 Souleater's off is not a bad estimate (well i've done it lol)

I look at it more as:

Do rolls/songs: get SMN for PD, use PD, run to first pulled mob > use souleater, fight mob, this fight lasts 1 min~ > relock, get new smn, use PD, run to fight next mob thats pulled, this takes 1 min (2 min since used SE)> kill mob, 1 min (3 min since SE) > get new smn, relock, pd, run to next mob, 1 min (4 min since SE)> kill mob, 1 min. (5 min since SE) > redo rolls/songs and this is when souleater is up for use again.

If you're slow, sure you can get 2 souleaters in 1 wave, but thats not going to happen with a good group since it's 6 minute recast. even if fights last 1.5 minutes, and you spend the full 1 min to get a new SMN and pull, you're still not to 6 minutes til the third mob is half dead.


so yea souleater every 2 mobs a decent estimate since you do this

Ya, its not that bad of an estimate if your group is sorta bad and all your DRKs want to SE the same mobs.



if you would tho i'd like to see you math workings for ukkos and resolution since what i get is Resolution is higher tho mine is very simple so wanna see if i missed something.


Resolution will come out a bit ahead, unless attack is low, but its a 7 hit attacking faster VS Ukons 6 hit with higher damage per hit, higher extra attack rate, higher WS frequency, and I think Im forgetting something else.

Ukkos Fury in Legion will look something like this, assuming decently high fSTR and 2.0 pDIF, which shouldn't be to far off:
[{(270*2.2)*1.1}*{(3*.75)*1.22}+{2*.25}]+[(270*1.48)*{(3*.75)*1.22}+{2*.25}]
Which google says is 2892~

[{(270 base damage*2.2 fTP of first hit)*1.1 7% WSD of Phorcys body and 3% of Ogiers legs}*{(3*.75 cirt pDIF and Crit rate)*1.22 crit damage}+{2*.25 non crit pDIF and non crit rate}]+[(270 base damage*1.48 fTP of second hit and extra attacks)*{(3*.75 crit pDIF and Crit rate)*1.22 crit damage}+{2*.25 non crit pDIF and non crit rate}

If I knew what DRKs were suppose to be using I could give a real answer on this, but all my resolution figuring comes in around 3k, given the same parameters of decently high/capped fSTR and 2.0 pDIF. So unless attack is suffering, Resolution will barley win for WS average, but as I said, Ukkos should have a higher WS rate which makes up for this. Once the DRKs pDIF stops being capped during WSs Ukkos will start to pull even/win, since crit hits become more powerful and Resolution will basically have a -8% damage mod from the attack penalty.


Doesn't work that way.

Yes, it does work that way. Everything can be factored in, and everything can be proven one way or the other with math. And since we're speaking specifically about legion at this point, you will always have buffs like berserk, last resort, etc. The only ones you wont have is Blood rage without a WAR group, and Souleater.



EDIT: Didn't post Resolution stuff.
(((300*.94)*1.07)*2)+(300*4.16)*2)=
It should look something like this for 2.0 pDIF, which is 3100~ damage
Add in -8% pDIF (1.84 instead of 2) and it drops to 2852~ Slightly below Ukkos.

[Rezeak]

Technically war would be on a 5 hit and drk a 6 hit if ya consider your getting 2 embrava ticks most of the time (sometimes you won't cause of da or ta or qa).

Now to the point all my clac's where are equal attack but the thing is either DRK will be at capped pdif in WS (meaning enough attack so the -8% attack has no effect) or it will be 15%-30% more attack than than the WARs which will mean Resolution should be stronger if i really want to get into depth.

Then you can factor in +900-1k DMG per WS for 33%-50% of the the time since 1 Souleater will last one fight.

Also i have found 5 min recast on Souleater is better than +10% attack on Last Resort for the above reason and usually LR + Berserk + Endark will cap out Attack. (30/5 = 6 so 4-5 souleater for 7-9 mobs so it's up 40-70% of the time)

The point i'm getting to is this i believe WAR and DRK is about equal when all is capped but the reason i put DRK ahead is this
When acc matters DRK pulls ahead since it has more.
When attack matters DRK pulls ahead again it has more.
When dDex for crit is low DRK pulls ahead cause Resolution isn't reliant on crits to boost it's WS DMG.

As for all the DRK Souleatering the first mob being a bad thing if killing the first mob as fast as possible so PD lasts 2 mob is a bad thing then /shrug or if pulling the strongest mob first so DRKs souleating and killing it before PD wears of is a bad thing?

you really can't prove this fully w/ just math that why i don't say DRK > WAR from the math i've done and my experience cause i don't have access to mobs Def, lvl, VIT, DEX ect

[Babekeke]

I look at it more as:

Do rolls/songs: get SMN for PD, use PD, run to first pulled mob > use souleater, fight mob, this fight lasts 1 min~ > relock, get new smn, use PD, run to fight next mob thats pulled, this takes 1 min (2 min since used SE)> kill mob, 1 min (3 min since SE) > get new smn, relock, pd, run to next mob, 1 min (4 min since SE)> kill mob, 1 min. (5 min since SE) > redo rolls/songs and this is when souleater is up for use again.

Recasts keep on ticking whilst you are locked on to hold your buffs.

[Rezeak]

Recasts keep on ticking whilst you are locked on to hold your buffs.
Whoooosh

Thats what we've been talking about for prolly the last 3 pages lol why else would you lock buffs if it wasn't to hold them as the recast keep ticking.


Edit : guess i missed the point more lol

[Babekeke]

Whoooosh

Thats what we've been talking about for prolly the last 3 pages lol why else would you lock buffs if it wasn't to hold them as the recast keep ticking.

lol thanks for that. What I was getting at is that Wish is completely ignoring any time locked in her timeline.

[wish12oz]

lol thanks for that. What I was getting at is that Wish is completely ignoring any time locked in her timeline.

Yes, I was counting the time since souleater was used, that is me completely ignoring it's recast. Or perhaps it's the complete opposite and it's me proving my point that you only get 1 souleater per wave of 3 mobs in a good group.



Fight # Enemy Killed? Killed By Start Time End Time Fight Length Exp Chain
1 Veiled Sandworm True Strify 10:34 PM 10:35 PM 00:00:32 0 0
2 Veiled Ixion True Strify 10:34 PM 10:37 PM 00:02:38 0 0
3 Veiled Amphiptere True Kaerin 10:36 PM 10:38 PM 00:01:58 0 0
4 Veiled Alicorn True Firalexys 10:39 PM 10:40 PM 00:01:04 0 0
5 Veiled Sanguiptere True Firalexys 10:40 PM 10:42 PM 00:01:46 0 0
6 Veiled Gigaworm True Kaerin 10:46 PM 10:47 PM 00:00:47 0 0
7 Veiled Ironclad True Kaerin 10:48 PM 10:49 PM 00:01:06 0 0
8 Veiled Alicorn True Kuzuri 10:48 PM 10:53 PM 00:04:09 0 0
9 Veiled Amphiptere True Kaerin 10:49 PM 10:50 PM 00:01:21 0 0
10 Veiled Ironclad True Firalexys 10:56 PM 10:57 PM 00:01:17 0 0
11 Veiled Sanguiptere True Kaerin 10:59 PM 11:01 PM 00:01:11 0 0
12 Veiled Sandworm True Kaerin 11:00 PM 11:02 PM 00:01:04 840 0


Lets look at this real quick, real numbers from an 18 man Legion run with my LS.

10:34 -> 10;38 first wave of 3 mobs.

10:39 -> 10:47 second wave of 3 mobs.

10:48 -> 10:53 third wave of 3 mobs.

10:56 -> 11:02 fourth wave of 3 mobs.

The second wave, where we quit in the middle to redo rolls before the worm, is the only time that 2 souleaters could of been used on a single group of mobs.

This was caused by our bad setup as we didn't have everyone around we normally do for the event, and had to replace some of our 12~ members with more mules than we normally bring. We even brought a random person who isn't even in our LS. As a consequence we ended up bringing WARx3, SAM and MNK, which isn't our normal setup, and only 2 of the WARs (Strify and I) are normally on melees, we had to make substitutions for the best we had left over after other jobs were filled, so our damage was actually gimped. Or the other possibility is that we should of redone rolls before starting the second wave. Either way, the only reason you get more than 1 SE per wave is a result of player error. (Buffing between waves is ideal since you have 1-2 minutes of forced downtime after each wave before the next wave spawns.)

So anyway, if you used souleater then, you would not have gotten to use souleater on the 3rd group til the last mob, and same with the fourth. One souleater per group of 3 is the norm, not the exception. Unless your group is bad or something. BTW I just happened to have saved this as it was an accuracy test on the Ixions, but Im posting the relevant portion of it to this this thread. There is an error though, the 4 minute Ailcorn we didnt actually fight til 51 or 52. I'm not sure why it says we started sooner than that honestly.

So in this set of runs we can see that because of player error, you get 1 extra souleater, but its generally 1 per wave, exactly as I was saying it is. it's not really something I think is worth debating. Screw up and you get more souleaters, dont screw up and you get one. Full time Bloodrage beats 1 souleater per mob wave.

Sorry for the long delay from my last post too, forgot this thread was here, I probably won't reply again either, my point has been made.

EDIT: Ixions/Alicorns like to run around, and Amphipteres like to do AOE knockback, which extends their fight time a little to a lot.

[wish12oz]

Fight # Enemy Fight Length Exp Chain
1 Soaring Vampyr 00:00:45 0 0
2 Soaring Vampyr 00:10:00 0 0
3 Soaring Dvergr 00:00:36 0 0
4 Soaring Corse 00:00:36 0 0
5 Soaring Strigoi 00:00:50 0 0
6 Soaring Dweorg 00:00:35 0 0
7 Soaring Kumakatok 00:00:53 0 0
8 Soaring Naraka 00:01:32 0 0
9 Soaring Dweorg 00:00:45 0 0


Stuff is out of order, no PD at the end for the last Vampire, ended up not being able to kill it and leaving the chamber. Check out those fight times though, SE = once per wave.

[Rezeak]

30/6 = 5 with 6 mins to spare

So drk will get 5 souleaters off most legion runs

Either let me say again

we have both prioved as long as DRK has 8% more attack than WAR or both are capped in WS then Resolution is stronger than Ukko w/ Blood rage up.
using ur no. 3100/2892 = 1.07 = +7% WS dmg

Now Factor in Souleater using ur 1 SE per wave then 33% of the time Souleater will add 1-950 per WS but call it 900 to be safe.

so 4000*0.33 + 3100*0.66 =
1320 + 2077 = 3397

3397/2892 = 17% more WS DMG over ukkos

482 X 4 X 0.2125 = 409.7/60 = 6.828 + 1(Ws delay) = 7.8 sec per WS

431 X 5 X 0.2 = 431/60 = 7.18 + 1 = 8.18

8.18/7.8 = +5% more WSs for Ukkos

2892*1.05 = 3037

3397/3037 = 1.12

So DRK will do 12% more WS DMG than War if both jobs are at capped attack, dDex and accuracy

Will WAR make up some of that via Ukon's Aftermath yes maybe all of it but one thing to say is by no mean Blood rage makes WAR >>>> DRK infact it prolly weakens WAR if you can't keep Blood rage up full time cause you lack WAR or Good WARs it's Safer to have DRKs.

Now to the point and please read this.

*1 Me and You have proven there is very little difference in WAR vs DRK at capped attack, dDex and accuracy but heres the reason i put DRK above WAR

When Accuracy matters which it does DRK has +40 (Ragna) over WAR at least and another 20 from Diabolic Eye when needed and Souleater grants +25 Accuracy

Meaning DRK at least has 60 Accuracy over WAR meaning when accuracy matters DRK will do 1%-30% more Damage than WAR going by point 1.

When attack matters persumming the -8% attack for Resolution is there LR and Bersrk Alone will push DRK to 17% more attack than WAR but it doesn't end there.

From attack bonuses DRK has + 62 more attack which is about +10% before buffs are added

Meaning when attack matters DRK will out DMG WAR by 1%-27% before u even consider endarks + 60ish Attack bonus as well.going by point 1.

Finally dDEX to get 75% crit rate in ukkos you need to be high up on the dDEX rating mean when it isn't Ukko DMG will drop off vs Resolution even more and no your not gonna stack DEX for STR in ukkos agian going by point 1.

So to the point if you can prove you can keep Attack, Acc and dDex at all times then you may have a real case for WAR being better than DRK (but not by much and well outside the area you can prove) but since these do matter DRK is prolly better than WAR.

And lets not get to the point on certain mob you can stack -dt/pdt gear over using PD or if it wear off DRK can gear more cause they only need 14% haste in gear to keep haste capped

[wish12oz]

30/6 = 5 with 6 mins to spare

4 waves, 1 SE per wave, unless you mess up, or your group is bad. Thats all you get.


So drk will get 5 souleaters off most legion runs

No, it gets four, unless youre bad, or you mess up. I'm sorry your group is bad at Legion, but you only get 4.



So DRK will do 12% more WS DMG than War if both jobs are at capped attack, dDex and accuracy

28%~ from TP/moonshade, 5% merits, 5% base, 20% blood rage, 11% items, 73%~ Base crit without counting DEX, which can go up to +15%. I simply figured DEX could be worth 3-4%~ easy and went with 75, cause it's a nice number. I wasn't saying with capped dDEX it's 75%. 90%~ is what you use for capped dDEX. And according to the parses I see, on a lot of mobs, your crit rate is actually capped or really close. gogo TEAMcat.

And using this TP set:
http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/255456
you acc is capped, according to parses, on everything. My attack appears to always be capped according to melee averages and estimated mob lvl as well, but without knowing mob stats I can't say this for sure.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c243/r5n/ffxi_20120812_2246.jpg
If nothing else though, it looks like it should be. (Ignore the base DEX value, DEX merits arent capped yet cause I've been lazy.)


Will WAR make up some of that via Ukon's Aftermath yes maybe all of it but one thing to say is by no mean Blood rage makes WAR >>>> DRK infact it prolly weakens WAR if you can't keep Blood rage up full time cause you lack WAR or Good WARs it's Safer to have DRKs.

Full timing blood rage puts Ukon WARs on even footing with DRKs as far as overall damage over the whole event goes. But WARs superior 2 hour is why they're better. DRKs shine for their ability to cast stun and have it actually land, repeatedly a lot, and their ability to add extra damage to a certain mob if needed, every wave, but overall the damage is the same, unless the WAR uses Mighty Strikes, then they win.


Now to the point and please read this.

*1 Me and You have proven there is very little difference in WAR vs DRK at capped attack, dDex and accuracy but heres the reason i put DRK above WAR

When Accuracy matters which it does DRK has +40 (Ragna) over WAR at least and another 20 from Diabolic Eye when needed and Souleater grants +25 Accuracy

Meaning DRK at least has 60 Accuracy over WAR meaning when accuracy matters DRK will do 1%-30% more Damage than WAR going by point 1.

The above set = capped ACC on everything on WAR.



When attack matters persumming the -8% attack for Resolution is there LR and Bersrk Alone will push DRK to 17% more attack than WAR but it doesn't end there.

From attack bonuses DRK has + 62 more attack which is about +10% before buffs are added

Meaning when attack matters DRK will out DMG WAR by 1%-27% before u even consider endarks + 60ish Attack bonus as well.going by point 1.

Im sure DRK caps attack and get that slight edge in WS damage.


Finally dDEX to get 75% crit rate in ukkos you need to be high up on the dDEX rating mean when it isn't Ukko DMG will drop off vs Resolution even more and no your not gonna stack DEX for STR in ukkos agian going by point 1.

Again, 75%~ is normal, 90%~ crit rate is what it would be for capped dDEX.


So to the point if you can prove you can keep Attack, Acc and dDex at all times then you may have a real case for WAR being better than DRK

If I can show parses as evidence for capped acc/att/what crit rate is then I can do that. Mind you I dont have many, and small sample sizes, etc.


(but not by much and well outside the area you can prove) but since these do matter DRK is prolly better than WAR.

ACC and ATT don't matter as much in Legion as people think they do, you just need the right buffs.


And lets not get to the point on certain mob you can stack -dt/pdt gear over using PD or if it wear off DRK can gear more cause they only need 14% haste in gear to keep haste capped

Mobs last 1 min~ PD lasts 1.5~ minutes, it wont wear off if you're not in a bad group.

EDIT::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Looking at those numbers again:
Given what I know about Legion now due to parses, I can safely say this what the real WS numbers should look like.

My melee average (with 99 Ukon, AM1 only) over 7 parse is in the 325~ range, this leads me to believe my attack is capped, since my attack varies by a few hundred points lol, and that cratio is around 1.5 to 1.8 with capped attack. 1.8 is really the absolute max I can see it being, so I'm going to use 1.7, since thats on the high side and will push things into Ragnaroks favor.

Base crit rate Ukkos
(((270*2.2)*1.1)*((2.7*.75)*1.22)+(1.7*.25))+((270*1.48)*((2.7*.75)*1.22)+(1.7*.25))
2602

Capped dDEX Ukkos
(((270*2.2)*1.1)*((2.7*.9)*1.22)+(1.7*.1))+((270*1.48)*((2.7*.9)*1.22)+(1.7*.1))
3122

Resolution
(((300*.94)*1.07)*1.7)+(300*4.16)*1.7)
2634

As you can see, even giving Resolution the advantage and assuming pDIF is higher than it probably is, Resolution actually doesnt have an advantage over Ukkos Fury when we account for level correction, and thats at minimum crit rate possible for TEAMwar inside Legion. Add in some extra crit rate from DEX, and Ukkos crushes Resolution. Plus the Ukon is going to get more WS's in the same amount of time, and hit harder, and maybe more, I'm not real sure about what DRK TP sets for Legion look like. But if you would like to inform me, I can do an accurate comparison for white damage and ws frequency too.

[saevel]

Wish will figure out where they messed up eventually.

On a different note

There is no way in hell a WAR is going to be capping dDex during Ukko's on anything that we would be having this discussion over. That's 50 DEX over the targets AGI, meaning 160+ during WS for a NM with 110+ AGI. Also the last 10 points are the most important, so if your at 160 then you'll cap on a 110 AGI mob, if it's a 120 AGI NM then you might as well not even bothered. Seeing as we don't know the exact AGI for most of the NM's we'd be having this conversation over, then it would be impossible for our theoretical WAR to have capped dDex on them all, or even most of them.

Attack / Accuracy are things we're much better at pegging down and thus able to alter builds around. When your stacking Berserk / LR / Min x 2~3 and food then -8% on Res ends up meaning nothing as you tend to soar right past the Ratio cap. Attack bonus / penalty's are applied before Ratio cap, thus enough attack can compensate for it. This is something we learned from Gekko and Ground Strike testing.

[Taint2]

No interest is supplying more napkin math but Ejiin one of the top DDs on any server and also part of one of the most successful NA Legion groups swears by WAR with Ragnarok. (he has 99 Ukon as well)

Saevel - agreed on the dDEX, you are going to be pretty much floored on 2nd tier+ Legion.

One thing nobody has mentioned is Tomahawk and how important that is on top tier mobs.

[wish12oz]

There is no way in hell a WAR is going to be capping dDex during Ukko's on anything that we would be having this discussion over. That's 50 DEX over the targets AGI, meaning 160+ during WS for a NM with 110+ AGI.

When we started Legion I just kind of assumed mobs would have around 130 AGL, but we saw some strange 'that looks way to high' crit rates around 140 DEX. Theres lots of reasons we could be seeing those numbers though, small sample sizes and all, but Im not convinced mobs in Legion even have 110 AGL anymore.


Attack / Accuracy are things we're much better at pegging down and thus able to alter builds around. When your stacking Berserk / LR / Min x 2~3 and food then -8% on Res ends up meaning nothing as you tend to soar right past the Ratio cap. Attack bonus / penalty's are applied before Ratio cap, thus enough attack can compensate for it. This is something we learned from Gekko and Ground Strike testing.

DRK should always be attack capped as long as you bring a COR and a BRD, even with 100 TP Resolutions.


EDIT:


One thing nobody has mentioned is Tomahawk and how important that is on top tier mobs.


Teach your WARs to cycle Blood rage and you can keep it up 100% of every fight, that levels the playing field between WAR and DRK white damage, but WAR still has the superior 2 hour, Stronger WS, and sometimes loltomahawk.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/25770-DRK-is-3x-more-OP-than-vanilla-WAR-s-Ukko-s-Fury?p=344183&viewfull=1#post344183

Page 3


No interest is supplying more napkin math but Ejiin one of the top DDs on any server and also part of one of the most successful NA Legion groups swears by WAR with Ragnarok..

And thats the correct thing to do when all your other DDs are DRKs andf you're the token WAR for the COR roll. Since you dont have other WARs to cycle bloodrage, you cycle warcry and Resolution will end up being better. My arguement is that Ukon is better when you use 1 DRK and a bunch of WARs. And also that a setup of a bunch of WARs and 1 DRK is superior to lots of DRKs and 1 WAR.

[Taint2]

His group uses atleast 2 WARs for Tomahawk. Sometimes you try too hard to justify Ukon. 5 WARs just to keep bloodrage up seems like a stretch when other DDs bring additional factors to the table.

[Urteil]

Doesn't work that way. DD's don't fight brick walls with infinite HP pools.

WAR's and DRK's deal damage in phases based on their current buffs and the time until those buffs can be reapplied. If the NM dies before those buffs expire then the DD's would of dealt higher damage then the average your talking about. The longer the NM lives the more average those numbers look until the recast cycle is back up and the DD can rebuff themselves. Basically Berserk / Aggressor are only 3min with a recast greater then their duration.

The infinite HP brick wall method is a good way to find out X item being better then Y item in Z situation, it's a bad way to compare two different jobs.

Praise the lord.

[Rezeak]

@30 secs = 1st Souleater
@7mins = 2nd Souleater
@13mins and 30 sec = 3rd Souleater
@20mins = 4th Souleater
@26 mins amd 30 secs = 5th Souleater

ur 12 fights took place 10:34-11:02 = 28 mins

28mins > 26 and 30 secs

soooooo

No, it gets four, unless youre bad, or you mess up. I'm sorry your group is bad at Legion, but you only get 4.
So you bad at legion?



Hidden cause it's too long :(

Anyway i'll leave it there

As for white DMG DRK has 5% Quad + 2% triple + 16% Da before WAR sub It can have more but you kinda need the stp to hold the 6 hit

Then 99 ragna has +14% and occsonally does X2.5 dmg (not sure on rate tho i have read it's @13% and it only can proc on first hit if ya DA TA or QA)

Honestly i'm kinda done here for a few reasons best couple is you really can't grasp the concept of using SE when it's up and locking it w/ lee way for 30 sec for each SE (30 secs is alot)

Thing is this is what ur really saying
We can kill all 12 mobs in 27 mins and well even tho we have time to kill one more ... nahh we suck to fight after 27 mins cause u could use a 5th souleater..

Or if ya at 25 mins w/ the 12th mob up you shouldn't wait 30 secs for recast to make the fight easier cause you suck to make the most of the 30 mins given.... plz

Then this....


Mobs last 1 min~ PD lasts 1.5~ minutes, it wont wear off if you're not in a bad group.


Fact is if your want to kill 12 mobs everytime you won't have pd up full time so you need to be able to kill mobs w/out it using shock squall order and what not.

Either way in most halls we use prolly 2 and sometimes 1 PD a wave so we only need 6-8 SMNs a run

[wish12oz]

@30 secs = 1st Souleater
@7mins = 2nd Souleater
@13mins and 30 sec = 3rd Souleater
@20mins = 4th Souleater
@26 mins amd 30 secs = 5th Souleater

ur 12 fights took place 10:34-11:02 = 28 mins

28mins > 26 and 30 secs

soooooo

So you bad at legion?

I specifically said that was a bad run, and that we messed up and had to do rolls in the middle of the second wave. I bet you wish you could say you messed up, only had 11 people and cleared 12 mobs.

What you fail to comprehend is the basic strategy of using DRKs. With 4 DRKs, the idea is to have 2 of them souleater the hardest mob, which you pull first to alleviate strain on the kiter, and 1 on each of the other 2 mobs every wave. This way your WHM doesnt want to kill them self dealing with 4 SE's on a single mob repeatedly, and it spreads the damage out more so you dont lose SE time waiting for PD to wear so you can lock your buffs. This is the strategy for using lots of DRKs.

It looks like this: Pull first mob in a wave: 2 DRKs SE, mob dies in 1~ min (1 min since SE was used), then you spend 1 minute getting a new SMN, waiting for PD to wear, locking buffs, then getting a new PD, then running to the next mob (2 min since SE was used at this point), kill second mob, this takes 1 minute (3 min since SE was used) spend 1 min getting new smn/waiting on PD/locking buffs/getting new PD/running to the mob 3, this lasts 1 minute, (4 minutes since SE was used). Kill last mob of the wave, takes 1 minute (5 minutes since SE was used)

As you can see, each wave of fighting mobs lasts 5~ minutes. which means when you're done fighting the wave, the first 2 DRKs SE's are up. At this point you redo some buffs waiting for wave 2 to spawn, then repeat the process. Unless you want to use SE in the middle of getting buffs, then lock it so your timer is up sooner, you'll only be able to actually do 1 SE per wave. And since the strategy is to vary SE's on different mobs, this is pointless, because eventually you will have people SEing mobs when they shouldnt. Like lets say for instance you use SE as soon as its up during the buffing waiting for wave 2. Ok, 2 DRKs now have SE for the first mob, the third DRK who SE's the second mob every wave has SE up for the first mob too, so he uses it to maximize the amount of times you can use it, and now you have 3 DRKs SEing 1 mob, mob dies in 30~ seconds, and half your SE time is spent waiting for PD to wear so you can lock buffs. And now the 4th DRK SE's the second mob of the wave, and then no one has SE up for the third mob of the second wave, and all 4 DRKs SE the first mob of the third wave. Do you see why this is stupid and doesn't work the way you think it does now?

You get 1 SE per wave.


[HB]As for attack this is what it I've seen....
I have seen 90 ukon avg dmg per hit excluding SE hits and crits it hits for less than a 95 ragna DRK w/ the same buff which mathematically it shouldn't (it should do more w/ aftermath) if attack didn't matter.

95 Ragnarok has higher base damage than 90 Ukon..... Empyrean level 1 aftermath is the same increase as the hidden extra damage procs on Relics also. Based simply on that, the Ragnarok should hit harder. And we're not talking about gimp level 90 Ukon vs gimp 95 Ragnarok. We're talking about 99 vs 99 witht he best gear. I'm sure your scrub WAR with the 90 Ukon had bad other gear to go with his 90 Ukon also.


Also I once used carbonara over red curry and my WS dmg dropped a noticeable amount on it's avg (about 400 odd) showing to me that even w/ LR Berserk Endark Chaos and Minuet X 2 i can still notice a difference of 90ish attack (and 4 STR)

So how much attack total did you have? 1200? 1300? 1400? Suck less. Legion is about completely Optimal setups or not doing very well.


Either way lets just say this ...
If infact Acc and attack is cappable w/ buffs then you could do this....
DRK/SAM and 5 hit w/ Ragnarok when embrava is up and increase it's WS DMG by +20%ish meaning ahead of WAR on WS DMG (and it would still have more acc and attack than WAR) but because it does matter it's just not true.

All SAM sub gives you in Legion in some extra STP. You lose more than you gain. And rather than talk about all this amazing stuff DRK has over WAR, how about you post the set you use, so we can compare it.


With the correct merits you can get 5 SE off in 20 mins (thats 5/5 SE recast and LR effect)

Which isn't short enough to be able to do SE twice in 1 wave of mobs unless youre bad/mess up!


Even then you ignore it in ur calculations even at 1 per wave it adds 300+ avgerage to you WS

Also i love how
143 base DMG + 180str at 100% STR Weapon DMG = 300
(possible to have more)

180*.85=153
143+153=296

How much are you adding for fSTR? Everything I ever saw for Resolution puts the damage right around 300. How about you post the gear set you use and I will tell you the exact number.


Then when i look at your gear since ur calculation in belt oglers and gorget into dmg you have 71+103 STR = 174*0.6 = 104
104+260 = 260 base dmg maybe you accounting for fSTR but your not doing the same for DRK

The 270 is based on the gear I use for my 99 Ukon in Legion, and yes, it adds some fSTR. If I knew exactly what DRKs use I could give you a better number, but as far as I've seen, 300 is correct. Post your gear set, and base STR, and I'll determine what it should be, k?


apart from that i know you are very very detailed w/ the maths you use for WAR you missing ALOT out when you consider DRK and ofc you push WAR ahead cause of this.at 1.7 pdif

I am missing a lot for DRK, which is why I've asked repeatedly for gear sets.


323*0.94*5*1.7*1.07 = 2855
then +300 avg from SE = 3155 (that's considering 1 SE per wave)
then 20% Da
0.2*0.94*1.7*1.07*323*2 = 221
So 3355 for resolution


This is just all kinds of wrong. Phorcys body is only counted on the first hit of a WS, and I'm not even going to pretend I understand how you're counting DA.


You say Moonshade gives +8% crit when 100-200 tp is a 15% crit inc so
15*0.25 = 3.75

Im counting TP overflow to put you at 125~ TP average for every WS, which is correct for WARs, and moonshade adding an extra 25 TP.

According to the DEVs, at 100 TP Ukkos is 20% crit rate, at 200 TP it's 35% crit rate.
35-20=15
15/2=7.5
7.5+20=27.5
so 27.5 is what Im really saying crit rate from TP is, I just used 28 cause it looks better. But again, dDEX adds at least 3 crit rate to Ukkos, and I only gave it 2. So as you can see, I round up and down to make nicer numbers, like the 75% base crit rate, it should actually be a bit more.


So from ur set 11(crit gear)+4(moon)+20(blood)+5(merits)+5(base)+20(ukko) = 65-70% varing on mobs AGI

This isn't correct.
If you want absolutes,
TP is going to be at least 27
Rancorus mantle is 5
AF3+2 mask is 3
Claymore grip is 3
base is 5
merits 5
bloodrage 20.

Bare minimum is 73.
And thats only if mobs have like 145 AGL.

Saying 75% crit rate is actually giving it less credit than it's actually worth. I was only using 75 because it's a nicer number to work with than 78 or 79, which is what I should be using. But I'm trying to tone Ukkos damage down a bit since I dont know exactly what Resolution WS sets are for Legion. How about you tell me, and then I will do exact math.



ofc your 8 could be from tp overflow and we could go that direction just remember Resolution DMG increase about 4% for every 25 tp over you are.
For 8 u'd be WSing at 125 tp at least so ur losing 1 hit at least there.



@90% crit @ 1.7 ur avg cratio is

.1*1.7 + .9*2.7*1.22
this is correct.


0.17+2.96 = 3.13 (overall cratio for 90% crit rate)
260*3.13*3.2*1.1 = 2864

I'm not even going to try and understand this

and +24% DA rate
0.24*260*3.13*1.1*2 = 429

Again, not going to pretend I understand I under how you're counting DA. But Ukkos is not a 1 hit WS, and it kinda looks like you're only counting DA once, when it should be twice, and you're also forgetting WAR's roll from the COR.


So 3293 for Ukko @ 90% crit rate

0.25*1.7 + 0.75*2.7*1.22
0.43 + 2.47 = 2.9
260*2.9*3.2*1.1 = 2654
0.24*260*2.9*1.1*2 = 398

So 3052 for ukkos @ 75% crit rate

Fighters rolls closes the gap by about 100 dmg for every 10% DA

So yea it's not the resolution destroyer ya claim it to be

Capped dDEX Ukkos is much higher than Resolution in legion, sorry to disappoint you, but you should recheck your math, I know it's wrong because your answers look nothing like mine.




Hidden cause it's too long :(

Anyway i'll leave it there

As for white DMG DRK has 5% Quad + 2% triple + 16% Da before WAR sub It can have more but you kinda need the stp to hold the 6 hit

You 7 hit Ragnarok as far as I'm aware, and you also cant use Mala in Legion as far as I'm aware, and I dunno where you get Triple attack from. How about you post your gear set.


Then 99 ragna has +14% and occsonally does X2.5 dmg (not sure on rate tho i have read it's @13% and it only can proc on first hit if ya DA TA or QA)

Honestly i'm kinda done here for a few reasons best couple is you really can't grasp the concept of using SE when it's up and locking it w/ lee way for 30 sec for each SE (30 secs is alot)

SE duration is shorter than PD, you can't lock PD because PD doesn't overwrite PD, you have to let it wear off before you lock. I.E. you cannot lock SE and save it.


Thing is this is what ur really saying
We can kill all 12 mobs in 27 mins and well even tho we have time to kill one more ... nahh we suck to fight after 27 mins cause u could use a 5th souleater.

At that point pretty much all your buffs are down, you have no PDs, and you need to wait 1-2 minutes for the next wave to spawn, which means you're done. And again, only 2 DRKs would get that SE.


Or if ya at 25 mins w/ the 12th mob up you shouldn't wait 30 secs for recast to make the fight easier cause you suck to make the most of the 30 mins given.... plz

You right dawg, our 12 man Legions with 12 kills is pathetic, if only we were as good as your LS. What does your LS accomplish again?


Then this....



Fact is if your want to kill 12 mobs everytime you won't have pd up full time so you need to be able to kill mobs w/out it using shock squall order and what not.

Either way in most halls we use prolly 2 and sometimes 1 PD a wave so we only need 6-8 SMNs a run

Only 6-8 SMNs? My group brings 5 and just hopes our CORs reset them. We really only 2 mobs without PD. And we always be sure to know which we're doing PDless, so we can get the end of one of our PDs at the beginning of the fight. We generally pick the squishiest target and pair it with the second squishiest right before, so we have PD for every mob. With our 12 kills and 5 SMNs. If it doesnt work out we just ditch the chamber, no big loss. Mul has the good drops anyway.

And seriously, you going with 36? You must be to bring that many SMNs.


His group uses atleast 2 WARs for Tomahawk. Sometimes you try too hard to justify Ukon. 5 WARs just to keep bloodrage up seems like a stretch when other DDs bring additional factors to the table.

3 is all you need to full time Blood rage, but it's a waste unless pretty much everyone is using Crit WS's. So optimal setup would be 4x WAR 1xDRK (for chaos roll) for the melee party.

[Rezeak]

Im counting TP overflow to put you at 125~ TP average for every WS, which is correct for WARs, and moonshade adding an extra 25 TP.

According to the DEVs, at 100 TP Ukkos is 20% crit rate, at 200 TP it's 35% crit rate.
35-20=15
15/2=7.5
7.5+20=27.5

Thats all fine as well but you not doing the same for DRK which agian is what you need to be doing to prove WAR > DRK

I have 109+77 STR in gear = 186

186 + 143 = 329 also it possible to have more STR than what i use it's not hard lol

Difference between 95 Rag and 90 ukon is 2 base dmg and gear shouldn't matter (even tho they are geared well) so w/ All attack buff ukon should hit harder on none crits and none SE hits (ukkos aftermath is stronger than relic bonus to hit even at lvl 1)

Phorcys i'm sure apply to the entire WS but if it does work like gorgets then it applys to all of resolution since that's how the WS works.

btw i accounted for both hits in you notice the X2 at the end and i already said war roll gives +100 DMG more to ukkos for every 10% it adds as an estimate.

as for the nos i gave

.1*1.7 + .9*2.7*1.22
0.17+2.96(this is whats ABOVE) = 3.13 (overall cratio for 90% crit rate)
Or a better way to say it your Average cratio is 3.13
260(base dmg)*3.13*3.2(2.2ftp+1.0ftp)*1.1(Ws bonus) = 2864 (before DA)
then for da you remove the ftp mod and x2 xDa%

It's a much simpler way to calculate WS DMG since you can ater it quickly since each part is defined once.

3293 is what i got for 90% c/rate ukkos
and 3355 is what i got for resolution using 1 SE per wave

All the data i used was from your gear sets from FFXIah

So after fighters roll yea it would be stronger thing is you claiming your stacking near 150 dex and 206 str as well as gearing gorget+belt+oglers

we clear 12 w/ 18 and don't need to rely on wildcard /shrug not 100% of the time ofc btw

As for gear all my gears sets and working more stuff out nahhhh i wasted enough time on here alot is on FFXIah + i have like 3-5 different Tp sets and alot of varying gear and since you really arn't trying to discuss the stuff i post and rather get made and call me dumb so yea i'd rather play FFXI on FFXI than on a calc w/ you.

what have i done /shrug prolly all the same crap you've done a million times FFXI is easy and there no content that is impossible with decent groups and yea done legion and killed 9-13 on most run it's not that big of a deal the hardest part of legion is organization tho the final chamber is tough.

Edit: btw all i wanted to show was DRK is on the same level as WAR instead of the claim you making where WAR > DRK clearly cause you did the math yet... when it came down to it you havn't even worked out how my STR DRK has in WS before you made those claims soooo yea you were clearly saying WAR > DRK cause i said so before this.

Lets not get into error bars and crap since you also need to prove WAR is better by more than the margin of error the formulas that we have derivied at the end of the day your hours of work away from proving anything imo.

[wish12oz]

Thats all fine as well but you not doing the same for DRK which agian is what you need to be doing to prove WAR > DRK

I have 109+77 STR in gear = 186

186 + 143 = 329 also it possible to have more STR than what i use it's not hard lol

WSC modifiers at 99 are multiplied by .85 than whatever for WSC.
A 100% STR WS, with 186 STR and a 143 damage weapon is
(186*.85)+143
which is 158+143, or 301.

About the DRK fTP per hit thing, I was using your .94/hit number. I actually would of put it higher, because I assume moonshade goes in the WS set, but I dont really know, the last time I saw a set claiming to be the best, moonshade wasnt in it.


Difference between 95 Rag and 90 ukon is 2 base dmg and gear shouldn't matter (even tho they are geared well) so w/ All attack buff ukon should hit harder on none crits and none SE hits (ukkos aftermath is stronger than relic bonus to hit even at lvl 1)

Whats the proc rate and damage multiplier on 99 Ragnarok again?


Phorcys i'm sure apply to the entire WS but if it does work like gorgets then it applys to all of resolution since that's how the WS works.

Conclusive testing shows its first hit only.


btw i accounted for both hits in you notice the X2 at the end and i already said war roll gives +100 DMG more to ukkos for every 10% it adds as an estimate.

There's no needs for estimates or guessing, you can just convert extra attacks to fTP and get solid numbers.

Like if we look at Ukkos Fury, 3 fTP, 2 for the first hit, 1 for each additional, 2 hits base. With 24% DA, this changes the fTP to 3.48, since the first 2 hits of any WS can get the extra attacks added onto them, get it? This is the proper way to account for DA/TA/etc in WS's.

If we look at Ukkos numbers.
Base crit rate Ukkos
(((270*2.2)*1.1)*((2.7*.75)*1.22)+(1.7*.25))+((270*1.48)*((2.7*.75)*1.22)+(1.7*.25))
2602

Then add 10% DA.
(((270*2.2)*1.1)*((2.7*.75)*1.22)+(1.7*.25))+((270*1.68)*((2.7*.75)*1.22)+(1.7*.25))
2736 is the new average, which is 134 damage. You can't just "guess" 10% DA gives some random value, and hope its right.



as for the nos i gave

.1*1.7 + .9*2.7*1.22
0.17+2.96(this is whats ABOVE) = 3.13 (overall cratio for 90% crit rate)
Or a better way to say it your Average cratio is 3.13
260(base dmg)*3.13*3.2(2.2ftp+1.0ftp)*1.1(Ws bonus) = 2864 (before DA)
then for da you remove the ftp mod and x2 xDa%

It's a much simpler way to calculate WS DMG since you can ater it quickly since each part is defined once.

Thats nice and all, but unfortunately, it's wrong.


3293 is what i got for 90% c/rate ukkos

You should of gotten 3122.


and 3355 is what i got for resolution using 1 SE per wave How much HP do you have? 1500~? so an extra 150 damage/hit if youre capped, resolution is 5 hits, so an extra 750 damage when SE is up, and since it's up on one out of 3 mobs, we can take 33% of 750 and add it to Resolutions WS numbers and be pretty close.

Resolution
(((300*.94)*1.07)*1.7)+(300*4.16)*1.7)
2634+(750*.33)
2881 Average Counting SE.

Again, your numbers are way off.


All the data i used was from your gear sets from FFXIah

And which of the 30 item sets for WAR on my FFXIAH page did you look at to determine my Legion WS set? I only ask because my Legion WS set isn't posted there.
http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/19774/ukkos-fury-setup/71/#1982332
But if you read this post, you will know what to do.
http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/251374
You use this set with Heca hands+1, since you will always have more than base crit rate, and you would use Thunder belt and Ogiers pants since you need the ACC, and you would not switch on Mekira hat+1 ever since you need the ACC on the AF3+2 mask.

Speaking of sets, when will you tell me yours so I can tell you more precisely what your Resolution average is?


So after fighters roll yea it would be stronger thing is you claiming your stacking near 150 dex and 206 str as well as gearing gorget+belt+oglers

Not at all. Im saying I gear 200 STR (103 base, 68 gear, 7 hasso, 15 minuets, 7 food), 10% WSD, 11% Crit, 24% DA, and thunder gorget/belt with capped acc/att.
(200*.85)*.60=102
Ukonvasara 99 is 156 base Damage, which gives it a weapon rank of 17, and means it's fSTR cap is 25.
If we figure Legion mobs have 130 ish VIT, this leaves me with 70~ STR to tally into fSTR, 70/4=17
102+156+17=275

So you're totally right, I should be using 275, instead of just guessing it to be 270 because I wanted to gimp it a little bit. I guess I should count boost STR also, and lower what the mobs VIT could potentially be too. Then I could cap my fSTR and be even better off. Lets go with that number. My new damage for all Ukko's calculations is going to be 295 instead of 270.


we clear 12 w/ 18 and don't need to rely on wildcard /shrug not 100% of the time ofc btw

As for gear all my gears sets and working more stuff out nahhhh i wasted enough time on here alot is on FFXIah + i have like 3-5 different Tp sets and alot of varying gear and since you really arn't trying to discuss the stuff i post and rather get made and call me dumb so yea i'd rather play FFXI on FFXI than on a calc w/ you.

Originally I typed something mean here, but I deleted it.


what have i done /shrug prolly all the same crap you've done a million times FFXI is easy and there no content that is impossible with decent groups and yea done legion and killed 9-13 on most run it's not that big of a deal the hardest part of legion is organization tho the final chamber is tough.

Edit: btw all i wanted to show was DRK is on the same level as WAR instead of the claim you making where WAR > DRK clearly cause you did the math yet... when it came down to it you havn't even worked out how my STR DRK has in WS before you made those claims soooo yea you were clearly saying WAR > DRK cause i said so before this.

You don't even know how to count WSC or fSTR, yet you accuse me of not knowing stuff? Why don't you tell me your gear set?


Lets not get into error bars and crap since you also need to prove WAR is better by more than the margin of error the formulas that we have derivied at the end of the day your hours of work away from proving anything imo.

I am hours away from proving to you that TEAMwar is better than TEAMdrk, but I would be a lot closer if you provided anything beyond random numbers and complaints that I was trying to make Ukko's seem better than it was, when I've been doing the exact opposite.

[wish12oz]

Note to self: Restraint

[Helel]

Considering RNG with annihilator/armageddon + adaman bullet completely destroys both of these jobs DD-wise, I'm not sure why we need 7-8 pages arguing which job is best when neither are. It was already easy enough to out-parse them before the update; now with the ranged attack delay reduction it's stupidly easy. This is assuming capped haste with embrava, 4x minuet, chaos, etc.

[Rezeak]

WSC modifiers at 99 are multiplied by .85 than whatever for WSC.
A 100% STR WS, with 186 STR and a 143 damage weapon is
(186*.85)+143
which is 158+143, or 301. (good job adding in fstr here)

ect.....

Ukonvasara 99 is 156 base Damage, which gives it a weapon rank of 17, and means it's fSTR cap is 25.
If we figure Legion mobs have 130 ish VIT, this leaves me with 70~ STR to tally into fSTR, 70/4=17
102+156+17=275

You don't even know how to count WSC or fSTR, yet you accuse me of not knowing stuff? Why don't you tell me your gear set?



.... yea i didn't do it for both cause i was doing a rough comparsion but you know whats worse doing it for 1 then ignoring it on the other tho the way i accounted for fstr wasn't equal but it was much fairer than ignoring it on one.

186+7(food)-130 = 63
63/4 = 15.75
and the 7 from food = 6 more dmg
which give 322ish

0.94 is w/ moonshade
it's 1.04 42% of the time but not worth talking about that.

My hp is @ 1675 w/ red curry which adds 837.5 a ws then u add in the da which is
167.5*2(2 chances)*0.2 = 67
67 + 837.5 = 904.5

Ragna proc rate is (approx) equal to 20% ODD but cause it's 2.5 X DMG it's a 13% rate also it can't proc anything but the first on Da ta or Qa were as emps can.
(none of this data i gained my self and i'm not gonna work it out too much of my free time to waste)

For WS i pretty much use this set http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/269691 except i use Bale +2 legs (12 STR and alot of acc and atk)

As for WSC my bad i usally ignore it to take account of fSTR on Resolution but it would seem doing it for ukkos was prolly not favorable (ignoring like 40% of fSTR)

Btw i dunno what you have done on ya Resolution no. so i can't comment on difference i do know the 4.16 is something to do w/ the 4 hits + double attack

As for Phorycs procing on first hit I've seen no evidence on it so i went by common sense that cause the Gorget and belt do it would be safe to assume that all Weapon skill dmg modifiers do. Saying that i'd like to see the post proving it only procs on first hit of the new WSes.

[wish12oz]

Considering RNG with annihilator/armageddon + adaman bullet completely destroys both of these jobs DD-wise

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j145/Jvchequer/failed_troll.jpg

[wish12oz]

As for Phorycs procing on first hit I've seen no evidence on it so i went by common sense that cause the Gorget and belt do it would be safe to assume that all Weapon skill dmg modifiers do. Saying that i'd like to see the post proving it only procs on first hit of the new WSes.

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/108199-Random-Facts-Thread-Other?p=5231047&viewfull=1#post5231047
Since I view this as the most important thing, Im answering it first. All testing is in that thread, somewhere before that post, as far as Im aware. I Favorited that post since it has the different types of WSD listed and their effects for refference later if I ever needed to know/forgot.


.... yea i didn't do it for both cause i was doing a rough comparsion but you know whats worse doing it for 1 then ignoring it on the other tho the way i accounted for fstr wasn't equal but it was much fairer than ignoring it on one.

I was using other peoples numbers, I didnt come up with any of those. I have no idea where the 300 came from. I thought I said this, but I guess I didn't since you keep bringing it up. I didnt come up with the 300 or the .94 ftp/hit.


186+7(food)-130 = 63
63/4 = 15.75
and the 7 from food = 6 more dmg
which give 322ish

0.94 is w/ moonshade
it's 1.04 42% of the time but not worth talking about that.

Using the same rationale as I did for Ukkos, and looking up the fTP modifier based on TP, I'm going with .98 fTP/hit with moonshade.


My hp is @ 1675 w/ red curry which adds 837.5 a ws then u add in the da which is
167.5*2(2 chances)*0.2 = 67
67 + 837.5 = 904.5

That's only if you keep capped HP for every single attack round, the average will be lower.
1574 on second hit
1495 third
1420 fourth
1349 fifth
1281 sixth
1217 seventh
1256 HP is where the bar turns yellow, meaning 25% of HP is gone, I'm going to assume this is where the WHM notices your HP is low and cures you. Since you're going to also take some damage even with PD up, Im not going to assume you get seven his in between cures and use the middle number as the average. But, Resolution is 5 hits, which is a huge amount of HP to be missing, and youll need 3 rounds between WS's With Embrava and all the DA you have. Plus I'm assuming theres a WHM with cureskin casting on you, which will be good for a hit or two at capped HP, plus Embrava Regen, and maybe even the regen spell. Given all of these factors, I would say SE adding 150 damage/hit on average is a good number to use, as thats what your HP would give you when down 1 attack.

Diabolic Eye will also drop your HP to 1400~ So if you're using that would lower your average even more, but we'lll assume you dont need to use it.

The rest of your post Im not quoting or going over, but anyway, here's my new WS numbers, which should be completely accurate.

Resolution,
DRK/WAR, capped attack, Lucky Fighters roll w/ WAR, Boost STR, 3x Minuet, Moonshade earring, 125%~ base TP every WS, with Souleater used every 3rd mob.
1.5-1.6-1.7 pDIF
(((355*.98)*1.07)*pDIF)+((355*4.62)*pDIF)+((150*5.8)*.33)
3305-3507-3708
http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/269691 <<<DRK AF3+2 Legs instead of Ogiers.

Ukko's Fury,
WAR/SAM, capped attack, Lucky Fighters roll w/ WAR, Boost STR, 3x Minuet, with full time Bloodrage, 2.5 rounds average between WS's w/ Restraint and AF3+2 hands, which should add 5% WS damage to the whole thing.
1.5 (2.5 Crit)-1.6 (2.6 Crit)-1.7 (2.7 Crit) pDIF
((((295*2.2)*1.1)*((Crit pDIF*.84)*1.22)+(pDIF*.16))+((295*1.84)*((Crit pDIF*.84)*1.22)+(pDIF*.16)))*1.05
3381-3516-3652
http://www.ffxiah.com/members/item-sets/?id=270010

As you can see, if cratio is around 1.5, Ukkos wins, if it's around 1.6, Ukkos wins, if it's around 1.7, Resolution wins, but Ukonvasara has a higher WS frequency, so it still wins. These are absolutely going to be the pDIF values you have in Legion, 1.6 is what I really think it is with capped attack, so I did 1.5-1.7.

If you want to post a TP set, I will be glad to compare those and tell you about white damage and why Ukon wins there as well, and how many more Ukkos Furys you get than Resolutions.

[saevel]

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/108...=1#post5231047
Since I view this as the most important thing, Im answering it first. All testing is in that thread, somewhere before that post, as far as Im aware. I Favorited that post since it has the different types of WSD listed and their effects for refference later if I ever needed to know/forgot.

Not exactly no. It was tested with a Ranged WS and Answig Salad +2%, the resulting numbers were not outside the error range of the test due to 2 and 3% items being so small. It also depends on the WS, it doesn't apply to both hits on Backhand blow yet it does apply to both hits on Atonement (yes atonement is calculated as two separate magic hits). The people in the BG thread basically just /shrug and moved on to testing avatar MAB. The JP test they were quoting was discussing the WSD+ weapons and the specific items that enhance certain WS's (Backhand blow +30% ect..). Seems "WSD+" items work differently based on the item and WS, going to make testing it to 100% one helluva nightmare.

Personally tempted to go smack somethings with Res a few times and see where the damage split lands. 5 hits should be enough to detect +5% (use Phorcys body) vs +1%.

[Rezeak]

You use only D.eye when Souleater isn't up tho i only really use it for the Unicorn

As for hp loss it's not that big of issue if you have good SMN and WHM the DRK should be getting cure bombed and the solace stoneskin+embrava offsets alot of it then one of the 4 SE is offset totally by Bloodweapon

Outside of PD being down hp rarly drops below 1400

As for DRK 6 hit w/ 2 embrava ticks you get 12 tp (takes longer than 6 secs to get 5 hits off after a WS considering Ws delay)
then you get 17tp back from Res (in rose + raja)
so u need 71 tp back in 5 hits
71/5 = 14.2
14.2/11 = 29
This 5 hit isn't 100% cause of Qa Ta Da giving you the abilty to get 5 hits off in 3 attack rounds but most of the time it works and is definitively the best way to use the haste overflow
Ws delay + 4 attack rounds = about 6 secs on rag


Rose + Oglier + Raja + Tyrants + H.stone + phorcys legs = 32 store tp (DRK has more stp option so yea 6 hit is very possible w/ embrava and it's the reason why 5 hit is possible for WAR)
Then u can Bale+2 head+Enif body+Mala+Windbuffet+Atheling+Phroc feet+Brutal
For 14% Da + 5% QA and 2% Ta
Gear Haste total is 15%
15% + 25% + 43.75 = 83.75 so u still cap haste

This isn't my gear set atm since i'm messing around w/ a few stuff but it's prolly the best for you to play with atm.

On the P.Body WS dmg i still can't see that as being proof. I mean yea ok some WS DMG was proved to work on 1 hit which inculed Gorgets but the new WS it usually effects all hit either way w/out proper testing there in no way to be sure least it would still be the best body for WS w/ or w/out the WS DMG for DRK so it's not something i need test.

[Taint2]

Phorcys Body is definitely 1st hit only.

I've tested with Resolution. Naked+16str WS low lvl mobs. (2000-3000hp) You don't get a 10% increase using Phorcys body and Ogiers.

[Rezeak]

thx Taint ^^ guess i should be using Twilight for Entropy then

[Taint2]

thx Taint ^^ guess i should be using Twilight for Entropy then



I dumped Entropy. No real reason to have it with Rag. (I see you have both as well)

Its either Apoc for lowman stuff or Rag for damage.

[Rezeak]

I hardly use Entropy outside of needing mp Cata seems to be just as strong and it heals and when you self skillchain it's <3 and like you said if damage is important i'll get my Rag out.

i think if i do play SAM or RNG i'll switch Entropy once i get 99 apoc

the other WS i have is Ruinator and well that's a money make so that'll be there till dyna dies

[saevel]

Thanks Taint. All the testing I read was with too small a number to get a definite answer, 10% on a 5 hit WS should definitely allow for a 100% confidence result.

[Armangetto]

So if you have phorcys body and Ogiers breeches... then wont Twilight body be the best ws peice for Catastrophe and Entropy? Since the ws dmg from both peices dosent stack? Or maybe phorcys body and huggin hose nq/hq version be a better combo?

[saevel]

So if you have phorcys body and Ogiers breeches... then wont Twilight body be the best ws peice for Catastrophe and Entropy? Since the ws dmg from both peices dosent stack? Or maybe phorcys body and huggin hose nq/hq version be a better combo?

They do stack, they just only apply on first hit. Makes the WS DMG+ useless for WS's like Resolution / Entropy, but still useful for high fTP one hit WS's like Cata. I don't know what DRK can get for INT/AGI in the leg department, I'm thinking INT+12 but I could be wrong. Ogier might be better if your not capping attack. Phorcy's body is a harder sell, it's basically a ton of attack and WS DMG +5% vs AGI +15 INT +15 on a 40/40 WS. Would depend on your attack situation.

[Armangetto]

Thanks for clearing that up. I dont think theres a leg armor that has int and agi on them that drk can use. The best I can think of would be Huginn hose (DEF:52 HP+50 MP+50 STR+10 VIT+10 INT+10 MND+10 Accuracy+12 Attack+16) Those might be best for entropy. I dont know it they would beat Ogiers for Cata.

[Taint2]

Phorcys+Ogier for Catastrophe and Scourge.

Phorcys+Bale+2 for Resolution.

Twilight+Huginn for Entropy.

[wish12oz]

Phorcy's body is a harder sell, it's basically a ton of attack and WS DMG +5%

Everything I ever saw said Phorcys is 7%, and the floor 80 body is 5%.

[saevel]

Everything I ever saw said Phorcys is 7%, and the floor 80 body is 5%.

Your correct, I was thinking the floor 80 piece for some reason.

[Rezeak]

going back to the legion thingy.

On the second wave of Mul(teir2) the mobs seem to have a -crit% since all our DRKs and WARs had a 0-3% crit rate on them and since the weapon + base + merit for my rag is +21% min crit rate it seems they have a -20%-30% crit rate applied to them.

Also Acc wasn't capped w/ Aggressor + 2h Blade mad + Hunters + Ragna

Either way kinda pushes Great sword use over Ukons drastically also admittedly we still have WAR/s for Tomahawk but wave 1 they Ukons and wave 2 they use ragna.

[wish12oz]

Also Acc wasn't capped w/ Aggressor + 2h Blade mad + Hunters + Ragna



Melee Damage
Player Melee Dmg Abs'd.Dmg Net Dmg Melee % Hit/Miss M.HR % M.Acc % M.Low/Hi M+0.Avg M-0.Avg
Kaerin 41856 0 41856 41.84 % 154/10 93.90 % 93.90 % 0/598 228.49 236.43


Mul, wave2+3 only. Ukonvasara99, Hasso, Aggressor, 1 Madrigal, sometimes feint, and this TP set:
http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/255456
94% Accuracy is within the error range of 95% ACC given that its a small sample size, but clearly, my accuracy is capped, or so close to it that it doesn't matter and a few parses won't help. (Accuracy caps at 95%)


Either way kinda pushes Great sword use over Ukons drastically also admittedly we still have WAR/s for Tomahawk but wave 1 they Ukons and wave 2 they use ragna.



Melee Crit Damage
Player #Crit C.Low/Hi C-0.Avg Crit%
Kaerin 35 209/725 419.03 22.73 %


While the -Crit trait seems to be true for wave 2+3 in Mul, and makes Ukon not better than Ragnarok for just those specific mobs, Ukonvasara is better for everything else inside and outside Legion. And WAR with Ragnarok will be better than DRK with Ragnarok if the WAR can cap attack +8%, and since no one really knows how much attack you need for these mobs, continuing this discussion is pointless.

[Rezeak]

I'm guessing it was an unlucky Hunters roll but my avg was like 92% but it was capped on a couple and 88% ish on others.

Since you didn't estimate white DMG




So WAR has more white DMG by 1.3% (can add like +2%-3% more to WAR since i missed a few things)

before you account for the 6% more attack speed reduction that DRK gets pushing DRK to 549 DMG per attack round vs WARs 524

Either way the way i did this is pretty rough so hard to say DRK > WAR but it's rough enough to show DRK is at the same lvl as WAR for white DMG.

As for WS rate in your tp setup you should be getting a 6 hit even w/ the + 12 tp from embrava

For DRK/WAR i six hit ever time i get 2 ticks from embrava w/ 32 store tp in gear

While i'd say it isn't a 100% 6 hit it is a well over 80% 6 hit rate

so i guess i have a 0.8*6 + 0.2*7 =
4.8+1.4 = 6.2 hit

431*5.2*0.2 = 448.24 delay for DRK per ws
482*5*0.2125 = 512.1 delay for WAR per WS

So DRK still WSs 14% faster than WAR (+4% more for multi attack)

If WAR can 5 hit Ukon while keeping haste capped it would be interesting to see u'd need 25 store tp in gear /SAM for WAR to 5 hit.

No idea what stats you'd sacrifice tho


Rose + Oglier hands + Raja + Tyrants + H.stone + phorcys legs = 32 store tp (DRK has more stp option so yea 6 hit is very possible w/ embrava and it's the reason why 5 hit is possible for WAR)
Then u can Bale+2 head+Enif body+Mala+Windbuffet+Atheling+Phroc feet+Brutal
For 14% Da + 5% QA and 2% Ta
Gear Haste total is 15%
15% + 25% + 43.75 = 83.75 so u still cap haste


Is the set i used for the calc

Either way like i said WAR seems to -5 to 5% white DMG and 4-14% less WS DMG than DRK just from the maths I've roughly done (reflected in 10% error bars)

feel free to put the data here in a more detail calculation as ya did before but i'm sure it'll come out roughly the same unless you what to ignore the way i obtain a 6 hit on DRK

Which is were i came to the point i came to before WAR and DRK are on the same lvl

I would use both for legion

WAR for Tomahawk and mighty strikes for bosses
DRK for the abilty to SE to strongest mob in a wave so that it can increase it's DMG when needed the most.

I also look forward to En-tpdrain 2hr for DRK being able to increase WS rate drastically and reduce a mobs WS rate at the same time

[wish12oz]

If you watch my Legion videos you can clearly see my WAR rocks a 2 or 3 hit inside Legion, DRKs gonna be 3-4.

[Rezeak]

If you watch my Legion videos you can clearly see my WAR rocks a 2 or 3 hit inside Legion, DRKs gonna be 3-4.

So we've gone from I've done the maths and WAR > DRK to just eyeballing it and saying cause i played w/ a DRK, WAR > DRK .... come on.

Tho from what I've worked out

DRK and WAR WS dmg is roughly the same
DRK WSes faster
DRK deals roughly about equal white dmg

so either I've done something wrong in the math (it's all provided) or i'm missing something massive on WAR

Also w/ your model of Legion the one were attack and acc are always capped

It is Possible for DRK to 5 hit /SAM which when worked out makes DRK > WAR by a decent margin. (note i only /WAR cause it's stronger cause i still notice the attack from berserk)

Either way all i'll say is this....

You came in here going on about WAR > DRK before you did the maths (since u didn't know DRK could 6 hit and didn't know it's WS set)
Then complained when someone said there on the same lvl lol.

Like i said i'm happy if ya want to try and prove it within a reasonable % but until then all you've really proved is that you can outparse the DRK that does legion w/ you which doesn't mean much.

[Taint2]

If you watch my Legion videos you can clearly see my WAR rocks a 2 or 3 hit inside Legion, DRKs gonna be 3-4.



3-4 with a lower delay weapon and 80% reduction...when needed DRK has far superior ACC and gear flexibility while maintaining capped delay.

Kaerin will have a Rag soon and then she can hop off of Ukon's cock.

[wish12oz]

So we've gone from I've done the maths and WAR > DRK to just eyeballing it and saying cause i played w/ a DRK, WAR > DRK .... come on.

That was me telling you in the most polite notcombative way I can that I no longer care, and that you're wrong at the same time while also providing proof that youre wrong by telling you to watch the videos of Legion I streamed/watch it when I stream it.


3-4 with a lower delay weapon and 80% reduction...when needed DRK has far superior ACC and gear flexibility while maintaining capped delay.

Dont need more ACC than the basic Ukon ACC set, so being able to have more of it doesnt matter. Thats like bragging that my WAR can hit 35% gear haste.


Kaerin will have a Rag soon and then she can hop off of Ukon's cock.

I was thinking of making a Ragnarok for my DRK to give myself some job versatility over WAR, NIN, Treasure Hunter 7, on my melee mule, but there's other people in my LS buying coins right now, so to avoid driving up the prices I will wait a bit. But you're right, I will make a Ragnarok soonish, its pretty cheap after all. Unfortunately that doesnt change the fact that WAR is still the superior job, and Ragnarok is only the best weapon for it in Mul.

[Rezeak]

Except you really haven't proven much except the ukkos is maybe 2% stronger which it well inside there error of your calculations.

Thing is you get so gun hoe about DMG you forget to talk about then important stuff on WAR like Tomahawk and mighty strike that alone makes taking 2 WARs into Mul vital if you need to kill the B.Rex admittally WAR kinda needs to use a Ragna without 2 wars i think b.rex is impossible.

Outside of mul

On the normal runs we prefer DRKs mainly cause it's definitively the strongest pdless job since you stack alot more pdt/mdt with gear all while you keep haste caped then you have stun and yea DRKs rotating stuns for tp moves it prolly a million times better than 2% more ukkos dmg cause ya rotated bloodrage.

Also watching a video will prove war is the best ! ? that certainly is eyeballing at it's finest maybe i'll post a video of a full perle tp/wsing in it too warrior w/ 85 ukon vs my 95 ragna drk and just be like BRO DRK IS THE BESTEST BECAUSE OF THIS VIDEO!!!!

Btw your the one that started this you wanted to prove WAR was better w/ math while all the time insulting but to your credit you did finally give a semi accurate calculation for WAR and DRK ws dmg which wasn't that big of a difference to prove anything but least you were being fair and that's why i posted gear set and was actually trying to help you correctly calulate everything by giving you gear sets and explain how i play legion ect...

Anyway lets just say this

I say DRK and WAR are on the same level of DMG proved by my rough calculations and your calculations and so many parses which means it's what else the jobs bring to the table that defines there usefulness

w/ DRK you have COR roll(10% attack) Stun, Souleater and Arcane circle and a much more survivable job cause of the abilt to stack more pdt/mdt than any other job while keeping haste capped.
w/ WAR you have COR roll(+?% DA) Tomahawk, Mighty strikes, Blood rage/Warcry

at the end of the day you need Tomahawk on some halls and the COR roll from DRK and arcane circle helps DMG alot on some halls (3/5 halls have arcana mobs)

Then you have the Mighty strikes vs Souleater thing

In Normal waves Souleater is better imo not cause of more DMG but the fact you can use it on the strongest mob of a wave for every wave (basically increasing your dmg when it's important) (tho some of the time souleater isn't even needed)

Mighty strikes is superior over Souleater for stuff like B.Rex/Ig Alma cause there reallly tough and you need as much DMG as you can get on those

Either way you need both and the DMG difference between the 2 jobs is not that big of a deal and when you come to the DD+1 thing it's dumb to choose a WAR over DRK cause of blood rage cause playerskill/gear is definitely a much bigger factor.

Then you say WAR is the best all of the time cause .... you have legion videos or that you outparse a DRK in your shell .... yea ok.

Either way i'm guessing you see the reason i went with the WAR = DRK thing cause it's a much much easier point to prove yours on the other hand i believe is impossible not cause WAR may have the advatage math side but a math model != real game so the error variance means u'd prolly need to mathmatically prove WAR > DRK by a good 10% which from what i've seen isn't possible unless you want to ignore certian things (which would make it inaccarate agian)

[wish12oz]

Then you say WAR is the best all of the time cause .... you have legion videos or that you outparse a DRK in your shell .... yea ok.

Quick Corrections here.

*My LS doesn't have a dark knight. We borrowed one for our last Mul, and maybe you watched that video and saw him and thats why you think that. I never posted a parse as proof WAR is best, or said to watch a video that proves it, because thats a ridiculous idea. I said to watch the video so you could see that I don't require 5 attack rounds to hit 100TP, its 2 or 3. Thats the only thing I wanted to tell you to watch the video for, sorry if you misunderstood.

[Rezeak]

If war gets 5 hit the same way drk gets a 5 hit (possible w/ 2nd cor doing tacticians but DRK can stack another 7% DA then)

5 hit WAR = (0.2125*482*4)/1.48 = 276 Delay per WS
6 Hit DRK = (0.2*431*5)/1.62 = 266 Delay per WS

1.48 is the multi attack rate for WAR
1.62 is the multi attack rate for DRK (it's 1.55 w/ the gear i posted but w/ Tacticians you don;t need the Stp any more so u can put in 7% more in)

So yea WAR is still not spamming out those WSes any faster than DRK is.

Also 5 hit is less reliable than a 6 hit when ur relying on regain since you may get those 4 hits off faster than you can get the 2 ticks required.

You told us you use a DRK for chaos rolls that's why i presumed you used it

[wish12oz]

You told us you use a DRK for chaos rolls that's why i presumed you used it

We had a DRK when we started, but he got tired and quit showing up. Probably because he was EU and found other stuff to do, like sleep. We now have a DRK we sorta bring who isn't in our LS, but there was a long time there we didnt have a DRK at all, lol. And seriously, your DRK set is wack, WAR has more DA than you think, You're forgetting WAR AF3+2 set procs, blah blah blah blah.

Did I mention how much I dont care since Mul T2+ mobs have a -crit trait or something? Continued claims by you are just going to make me prove you wrong, show why your set is stupid, laugh at you, etc. Stop while you're ahead and I'm being lazy.

[saevel]

If there is anything this thread has taught us (other then don't get into a troll debate with wish), it's that WAR and DRK are both fully capable DD's that largely have the same damage potential. Reaching that potential is up to the player and the various situations we find ourselves in.

[Rezeak]

3 pieces of WAR af+2 adds like 1-2% to your overall DMG at most so yea it's not something that makes WAR the best DD in the game lol.

As for would i be an idiot if you proved me wrong well considering all i said was DRK and WAR were on the same level backed up by the rough math and experience I've had which is a true statement even if WAR >>>>>>>>>>>>> DRK cause like i said i can't make a perfect mathematical model nor do i believe it's possible so /shrug.Anyway all my data is above and i'm happy for anyone to correct or do w/e to it.

Were as you came along w/ all the claims of WAR > DRK w/ all the claims that it can be proved with maths implying you worked it all out but no you didn't even touch the math before you made your claims meaning those claim u made were pretty much purly from u eyeballing/parsing against some /random DRK.

You still haven't proved attack / acc are capped full time on WAR

For example your mul data.

154hits 10misses = 93.9% acc

Standard error is Standard Dev / sqrt(no of hits)
0.23457/12.8 = 0.0183

So basically u have proved you are @ 92%-95% acc not that ur at capped acc not to mention the error levels are higher than that cause for each mob there different hit rates.

[wish12oz]

Standard error is Standard Dev / sqrt(no of hits)
0.23457/12.8 = 0.0183

So basically u have proved you are @ 92%-95% acc not that ur at capped acc not to mention the error levels are higher than that cause for each mob there different hit rates.

Or, if my ACC was actually capped, 95%, it would show up as 93%-97%.

Feint for the more evasive mobs, Impact for the really crappy ones.

My acc is 154/10 because I missed 2 hits due to naked H2H, and it was still 94%. Remove those two misses and it's 95%. I told you to watch the Legion video related to the parse, if you did you would of caught it and I would not have needed to make this 5 second edit of the video:
http://youtu.be/lSsaz0SSRbE <Click this, now stop acting like I didn't have capped ACC.


3 pieces of WAR af+2 adds like 1-2% to your overall DMG at most so yea it's not something that makes WAR the best DD in the game lol.

In a game of winning by a small amount +2% is pretty big.


As for would i be an idiot if you proved me wrong well considering all i said was DRK and WAR were on the same level backed up by the rough math and experience I've had which is a true statement even if WAR >>>>>>>>>>>>> DRK cause like i said i can't make a perfect mathematical model nor do i believe it's possible so /shrug.Anyway all my data is above and i'm happy for anyone to correct or do w/e to it.

Were as you came along w/ all the claims of WAR > DRK w/ all the claims that it can be proved with maths implying you worked it all out but no you didn't even touch the math before you made your claims meaning those claim u made were pretty much purly from u eyeballing/parsing against some /random DRK.

I worked it out using the gear sets I thought of as "what you should be using." Your gear set is worse than the assumed one I one I made, which I know can't be right since I put very little effort or thought into it, and then with the -crit trait or whatever it is, I stopped caring. I'm only here to prove the things you say are wrong at this point.


You still haven't proved attack / acc are capped full time on WAR


Would you like the entire video to count my hits and misses?

All I did was check 1400~ attack compared to 1600~ compared to 1700~ in weaker chambers, and got the same average damage per hit on 1600~ and 1700~, lower on 1400~ so I assume somewhere around 1600~ will be capped. Which means mobs would have like 700 Defense, which makes sense to me. I didn't do an indepth study or anything to determine the real defense values of every mob. I just made observations based on collected data. Which is why I never gave absolutes in terms of attack, pDIF, etc, just gave values based on my observations and what I think they are. And also why I said this:

and since no one really knows how much attack you need for these mobs, continuing this discussion is pointless.

[Detzu]

Umm what ..

WAR/SAM
DRK/SAM

Both have a 3/5min 25% attack boost. WAR had DA, DRK has SE. And if your talking pure embrava / PD "zerg" then DRK/WAR has both Berserk and LR to go with their SE. WAR has aggressor but WAR also has less accuracy then DRK.

The only thing WAR has over DRK is MS / Savagery WC. MS can be done once per 2hr for insane numbers. Nice to have but I like to fight more then 1 NM per event day.

On higher content you generally go drk/war while war always go /sam. I think this is enough to explain why war with GS is > to drk with GS.

[Rezeak]

Sampling stuff zzz boring.


and let me remind you of this....



Ragnarok has a 14% Crit rate bonus @ 99

This is where I stopped caring what you think, because you outted yourself as having no idea whats going on. No intelligent DRK would ever use scourge.

Not even knowing the base stats on the weapon ur comparing against.

Not to mention u didn't even consider Souleater DMG in WS before this from ur old numbers so don't pretend u worked anything out before hand.

Long story short all i'm saying if you want to make a claim like WAR > DRK you need to

A) Do proper testing(500+ sample for each mob (LOL) and proper accurate math (nothing close to mine or yours so far) on top of that then you need to make sure your not making mistakes and the best way is to get someone to compare and caliculate error margins (incredibly difficult consideing even the equations we use are estimates)

or

B) you need to prove DRK is weaker by a good margin by like 7-10% which

and since A) is like ok get a life kinda of work and B) is defintly not true for either your pretty much stuck at saying there about equal or it's an opinion with no real grounds.


========================

Onwards...

Ragna DRK vs Ragna WAR

It's really tough to call imo

While in general pple w/ DRK and WAR parse higher on DRK w/ Ragna in my group.

But you will not kill the brex in mul w/out at least 2 tomahawks and may even need a 3rd so for that alone there more useful and ofc mighty strikes.

For the cookie cutter halls souleater seems more useful overall than mighty strikes since you can use it more than once and there's no need to reset between runs ofc you take 1-2 for Tomahawk and Fighters boost.

As far as i can tell 2 WARs for Tomahawk and 2 DRKs for Stun locking if needed the + 1 DD w/e you have that is the best (i think Mythic DRG is the best +1 DD but there so rare /drool) can kill any hall w/ the right surrport ^^.

ofc all my opinion.

[wish12oz]

/sigh not the point i'm making the point i'm making is sampling error

Basic example...
i hit a mob once
does i mean i have 100% acc ... no it means i have 1-100% acc as you take more hits the error becomes smaller and smaller.

In other words it's possible to have 94% hit rate w/ 92% hit rate meaning u proved nothing outside your hit rate is 90%+.

My ACC parsed at 95%, which is capped, if you remove the 2 misses from naked H2H, stop trying to say my acc was not capped when it clearly was.


As for my gear choices the set i posted is by far the best u can do w/ a mathematical(may not be best in a real model cause of human error) model w/ 6 tick embrava but if you consider tact roll u can drop Stp gear for 7% more Da and considering i already said that and considering it's the highest(exculding dup grip) value of multi attack DRK can have it should be the best.

You're missing obvious things, like Valkyrie Breastplate. Same #of extra attacks, but gains what could be potentially useful attack instead of proven useless ACC. It also adds 3~ Base damage, which will be at least +1.5% damage during TP, since your fSTR is definitely not capped in your set and that will always push it ahead even if the attack isn't useful.


Ofc your sets did not even consider 6 hits so how the hell did your 7 hit sets beat the stuff i was talking about lol.


Your set is every piece of double attack gear you can think of, with stp put in 2 slots you dont have DA items for. Any set with any amount of actual thought put into it can beat yours.


and let me remind you of this....



Not even knowing the base stats on the weapon ur comparing against.

I thought he was talking about the aftermath effect for a minute, not exactly a big deal since the aftermath is ALSO critical hit rate.


Not to mention u didn't even consider Souleater DMG in WS before this from ur old numbers so don't pretend u worked anything out before hand.

Because quality DRKs dont spam souleater like it's going out of fashion.


Long story short all i'm saying if you want to make a claim like WAR > DRK you need to...

Find a DRK with a clue to tell me what the best gear sets are? Ya, I totally agree. But hey, I have been putting effort into figuring this out on my own recently since every DRK out there seems to be clueless.


Onwards...

Ragna DRK vs Ragna WAR

It's really tough to call imo

WAR has Tomahawk and Mighty Strikes, and since this discussion is only about Mul T2+, both of things matter way more than they should. WAR is better.

[Rezeak]

Acc- sampling error

gear- Enif + Calmecac Trousers (ur point is correct but can use those for better results in high acc/atk)

Spamming SE - Some chambers it makes no odds other chambers you time it in combination w/ pulls so there's less down time for the tougher mobs.

DRK with a clue - loads on FFXIAH maybe if you made like 1 post or read the DRK tp and WS discussions and were a little more open minded and didn't make statements you can't prove u may get somewhere.

Mul- Thats my groups choice over all Ragna users have WAR and DRK we find 2 WARs + 2 DRKs + 1 WAR or DRK(for stuns and roll) is out better setup.
Outside Mul- we DRK X 4 WAR X 1 cause it always get further for us.

Little more info on how we do mul



Baasically the drks back up the mages for stuns and it increases our survivabilty alot and yea if we didn't rely so much on the stuns and the fact our DRKs do better than WARs dmg wise we'd prolly be WAR X 4 DRK x 1.

I think i write this every post lol... I haven't ever said WAR > DRK is not true lol I'm just saying you w/out real proof like a very detailed mathematical model or clear difference between the jobs saying anything but WAR and DRK are on the same level is just being close minded.

Either way I've wasted enough time on this if ya want gear sets or w/e i can do them outside if that the point that u can't prove WAR > DRK hasn't changed since the start so it feels wasteful of my time to talk about it anymore.

[StingRay104]

Is anyone even reading what wish and rezeak have to say anymore? I think you both have lost seeing as no one cares

[Rezeak]

Feel free to ignore me i was only posting out of my own interest in discussing things w/ wish which is the point of a forum lol plus i enjoy playing w/maths every so often(yes i'm werid :X).
As for winning and losing if ya care about winning and losing on an online forum about 2 fictional jobs in an online game then well you may need to relax a little :).

PS you cared enough to post ^^.

[Babekeke]

I was using this forum as a 'guide to legion' thread lol.