Scholar Has lost it's ability to be useful, please fix this.

[Krystal]

As stated in many previous threads Scholar has a few abilities that have no use what-so-ever in abby.

The first being: Modus Veritas, This ability used to be the scholars "secret weapon" so-to-speak. It allowed them to deal major DOT damage with merits. Now 99% of monsters are immune to this ability in abby. This renders any merits wasted and the ability itself useless.

Suggested Fix: Remove the immunity to this ability from monsters in abby.

Second: Libra, This ability seemed useful at first but overtime it turned out to be absolutely useless. The most use any player could possibly get out of this ability is to know how much hate they have so they know not to cast and any player with common sense knows when not to cast in a party anyways.

Suggested Fix: Alter this ability so that it also allows the user to see the foe's current HP, MP, Elemental weakness(if any), and current TP.

Three: Stormsurge, Useless in comparison to the whm counterpart spells that can use used on demand and do not require accession to cast thus rendering the job trait a waste of merits for anyone who has put them in before this update was put in.

Suggested fix: Alter the ability which puts them at least just under par with the whm counterpart instead of trailing behind by about 20 points worth.

Spells: Embrava and Kaustra, Extremely powerful, almost over powered, the biggest issue with this however is they are only useful when under sch two hour effect, thus they are useful for about 2-3mins and then are absolutely useless for two hours.

Suggested Fix: They need to be accessible outside of two hour ability and nerfed.

Scholar used to be able to heal and nuke just under par or on par with their blm and whm counterparts, ever since the new tier spells and abilities have been introduced, they pale in comparison to the two now. Scholar is no longer seen as a alternative nuker or healer anymore.

Suggested Fix: Give Scholar access to Cure V at the very least along with a Stratagem that allows them to enhance the use of their next status debuff removing spells(under light arts) and add a Stratagem that allows them to lower enmity against them(under dark arts) These Stratagems would be of course weaker versions then their whm and blm counter parts but non-the-less these modifications would allow sch to be seen as a useful alternative to whm or blm again.

[Komori]

Are you serious? A job that's required in one endgame event and can solo almost everything else is no longer useful just because you can't do it all?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Don't talk such nonsense.

[Volarione]

I call bs embrava rocks the only reason it rocks so much is because its a 2hour dont talk nonsense

[Delvish]

Modus Veritas: OK
Libra: OK
Stormsurge: GTFO, been discussed and disproven.
Kaustra/Embrava: GTFO, how dare you even sugguest nerfing such an ability!
Tiers: Cure V - Meh, but Cure IV has been boosted as well as we have Regen IV and V.
Nuke V - GTFO - We currently have the highest tier nukes available, plus helix's. With the right set up we are right along with if not better than a standard BLM

[Krystal]

Modus Veritas: OK
Libra: OK
Stormsurge: GTFO, been discussed and disproven.
Kaustra/Embrava: GTFO, how dare you even sugguest nerfing such an ability!
Tiers: Cure V - Meh, but Cure IV has been boosted as well as we have Regen IV and V.
Nuke V - GTFO - We currently have the highest tier nukes available, plus helix's. With the right set up we are right along with if not better than a standard BLM

As much as I'd love to agree with you on most of what you said, we pale in comparison to blm and whm do to their OP spells and abilities. granted these are only suggested fixes. the fact remains is that sch needs to be fixed. people will refuse to take a sch these days and grab a whm or blm instead. I've sat in several different parties before waiting for them to find a last member(usually a healer or nuker) and when i suggested a sch 9/10 times i suggested these i got replies of "lolsch no,thanks" and even one of the Scholar's i suggested has +2 emp armor for thier scholar.

This is what prompted me to make this post.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

As much as I'd love to agree with you on most of what you said, we pale in comparison to blm and whm do to their OP spells and abilities. granted these are only suggested fixes. the fact remains is that sch needs to be fixed. people will refuse to take a sch these days and grab a whm or blm instead. I've sat in several different parties before waiting for them to find a last member(usually a healer or nuker) and when i suggested a sch 9/10 times i suggested these i got replies of "lolsch no,thanks" and even one of the Scholar's i suggested has +2 emp armor for thier scholar.

This is what prompted me to make this post.

Then your linkshell/party are stupid, still doesn't make SCH broken.

[Flyinghippress]

Modus Veritas: It used to be way OP. You could kill a UFO in Sea in 1 tick if you had a party of scholars use it at the same time. While the miss-rate or downright immunity is annoying, I would hate to see NMs fall so easily on the regular. Abyssea is easy enough as it is.

Libra: Agreed, certainly could use HP/MP/TP/Weakness information. I'd even go as far as to say debuff resistances or even display which debuffs are on it currently. Buffs too! It does have some uses though, being a proc in VW as well as on light-armor dyna mobs.

Stormsurge: Don't really need to AoE them. I generally ask each DD or just observe which weaponskill they prefer to use and then cast the appropriate storm on them. While a Resolution WAR in the party may benefit from STR, an Upheaval WAR would make more use out of the VIT. The +Stat should be related to enhancing magic though. This also does stack with WHM's Boost-spells if I recall.

2 Hour Spells: They should be left as is. They were recently given to SCH as an answer to a fairly weak 2 hour.

I main heal on SCH without a problem. Outside of Abyssea my Cure IV (with ~47% cure potency) will generally cure a little over half the max HP of most people. Inside Abyssea a Rapture'd Cure IV will heal more than a Cure V. Just gear for enmity if you have trouble with it. Animus spells are actually quite nice when stacked with gear.

I also nuke on par with the average BLM and will outperform them with Ebullience. We can even self skillchain just by casting magic which is very nice. The added damage is generally like a free nuke. You just have to use the tools we have. If you're scared of pulling hate you can always toss a merit into the appropriate stratagem.

[Delvish]

As Flying said, it isn't uncommon to be on par cure for cure or nuke for nuke with our main school counterparts. In the long run they will win out as well they should, but we are far from worthless. If you don't feel that you are keeping up, you have to re-examine your gear and skill (both magic skill and as a player).

If your linkshell or group or anyone, thinks that getting a SCH is an unsuitable replacement, then you are either going at something super-tough which you may want that 2hr Embrava for anyway, or your leaders are figgin idiots. Or you are doing something in Abyssea which requires proccing, in which case it isn't about Cure V or nuke-ja, it's about our selection of spells which is something entirely different.

[Muras]

I mentioned this in another thread, but the funny thing about Modus Veritas is that some mobs are completely immune to it. Go use it on Ulhuadshi or Itzpapalotl in Abyssea Attohwa and you won't get the "missed" message but something entirely different. That's why I think SE is full of crap when it comes to keeping the missing effect. All they have to do is make the big HNMs immune to Modus Veritas, while letting it land 100% on everything else.

In regards to everything else, I'll probably just be repeating some others have said. There is nothing wrong with SCH, as it does what it's supposed to do quite well. It certainly doesn't need "fixes" anymore, but perhaps only a few minor tweaks.

Libra should have a longer range, and honestly for what (little) it does right now it should probably be on a 30 second timer. I do however recall SE saying they might make Libra also display HP/MP/TP in the future, or perhaps give SCH an entirely new ability. The post should be on these forums somewhere.

Stormsurge isn't something I'm personally concerned about, but I find that our stormspells are generally fine. I just want more gear like Twilight Cape. And our 2 hour is perfect... It lasts a long time and we gain access to Embrava. Perhaps I haven't done enough testing with it but I haven't really been that blown away with Kaustra, but that's just me.

If there is something that SCH has that does need some adjustments, I'd put my vote in for Adloquium. I feel it should at least give 2 TP/tick (40 TP a minute), preferably 3 (60 TP a min). Again, SE said they'd give us gear to enhance it (Or something) but this was months ago. Perhaps we'll see something with Seekers of Adoulin but who knows.

For healing... With Regen V, Aurorastorm (+Korin Obi) and a good Cure Potency set, you'll often not need to use nothing but Cure III (Mine does 487 or so and I only have +42% Cure Potency). For big cures I can fire off a 1,500 Cure IV with Rapture, or 910ish without. The one and ONLY problem is that you can gain a lot of enmity from these large cures... But it's usually nothing Animus Minuo and some Enmity- gear can't solve.

For nuking and damage... Number wise, you can usually deal more damage with a tier V nuke than a BLM if you always use Ebullience. I personally like to use Parsimony in conjunction with AF3+2 pants for 100~ MP nukes. Also, use your helix spells inbetween nukes. Even if you can only deal 160-220 damage with the initial cast, that'll add up to 2880-3960 damage over the full duration of it (Usually lasts about 2 mins 42 seconds or so). 160-220 is the low end too... You can often hit 300-500 helix spells with good gear which is 5400-9000 damage for only 26 MP. You need to not become a victim of "high number syndrome"... Helix spells especially are something that don't show their full power right away.

The short answer though is pretty simple. If you try to play SCH like a WHM or a BLM then you'll likely see poor results. SCH is it's own entity and should be treated as such.

EDIT: I noticed the topic creator mentioned Abyssea specifically too. I just wanted to point out that the numbers I talked about are outside Abyssea, so they'll be a lot higher within Abyssea. You can see 800-1000 damage helix spells and stuff (14,400-18,000 damage) with the right atmas and gear (And Ebullience).

Abyssea is "old" content though... People will likely always do it for AF3 or Empys but when Adoulin hits people will care a lot less. It won't matter if SCH lacks procs or if something else DOES perform better. In the long run, Abyssea doesn't matter.

[Sotek]

SCH is a broken job, Embrava was just a pathetic excuse at redeeming the situation. SCH has gone from disaster to disaster ever since Lv.75 and just because Embrava is an amazing spell doesn't mean it's not the biggest disaster yet.

I'm sure a lot of jobs suffered during the cap rise, but SCH certainly got hit hard. SE had absolutely no vision for SCH going forward and it damn sure showed. They started off with Libra and Animus, promptly dropped that train of thought leaving us with some pathetic abilities and a completely unbaked idea, which sadly wasn't a bad idea. Enmity control could have been a useful avenue to go down, Lv.99 could have meant stronger monsters that you'd actually want a definitive tank for, all of that sure disappeared fast. Short of stuff that SCH was obviously going to get (5th Stratagem, tV nukes, etc), SCH really didn't get anything until Embrava. SE had absolutely no idea what they wanted to do with SCH and they effectively looked at the job, realized everything about it was a joke and decided to make Tabula Rasa into the most overpowered ability ever. I wont say that didn't fix the issue, because it did and SCH is now integral to most endgame events, but I will say it was a woefully idiotic fix. Really mirrors their fix to the Modus exploit so if anything at least they're consistently bad at fixing their screw ups. Honestly, this would have been less of a colossal fuck up if they didn't proceed to announce several months later that every job would be getting new 2Hrs. Right, so... Instead of giving the job something balanced that it can actually use without becoming the most important thing in the game, you decided to give it an update which could easily have been pushed back until every other job is getting the same update? Though in hindsight I guess they needed to release Embrava early because it would be impossible to do half the endgame content without it.

All that said, SCH isn't that broken, Modus and Libra are stupid but they're not game changing. If anything is to blame it is the content they release, SCH would have been fine in Abyssea if they did the logical thing and made Helices a stagger (and not promptly lowered their level). Enmity control would have been a perfectly valid role if they made enmity matter and didn't give everyone the potential to tank with limitless temporary items. If content didn't require every job, when in actuality you only need a single party, bringing a competent SCH instead of a BLM or WHM would be reasonable. Maybe if we weren't flooded with temporary items MP efficiency would still be something that is actually desirable. SE is terrible at balancing content and something like Nyzul Isle is a shining testament to that. In a game with 20, going on 22 jobs, events like Nyzul should not require specific jobs to barely complete it. No matter what job you bring to an event like Nyzul Isle, you should have a reasonable attempt at beating it (within reason of course, bringing 6 BRDs would just be ridiculous). With something like PD and Embrava already in the game though, I don't see this trend changing any time soon. I'd love to be wrong but as usual I'm probably not, that new mole event looks nothing like Nyzul, does it?

Honestly, I'm amazed I can be this bitter about my favorite job being given the best spell in the game. I hope all the new 2Hrs will be just as good as Embrava simply to balance out the issue, but from what I remember hearing at the VanaFest, it doesn't sound like it.

As for suggesting things for SCH, give it up (delicious irony!). Modus is never going to be fixed, Libra will forever be worthless and even if they do, Embrava is always going to eclipse anything they'll ever do for SCH. Short of removing it from the game completely, SCH is done. New merits is the last substantial adjustment this job will see and unless one of them enhances the potency of enhancing spells, no one will care because it does nothing for Embrava. Come 2013, GEO and RNC will be getting 99% of the job adjustment space and a job like SCH which is already perfect thanks to a single spell would be lucky to even be remembered by SE. Again, I'd love to be wrong but I'm not, SCH specifically hasn't had a significant adjustment since getting Embrava and pretty much the last time the community reps graced these halls with their presence and news from the development team it was about Embrava. Though I guess that is slightly less significant when they're taking nearly 6 months to adjust Boost.
The OP is almost completely right with their views on Embrava. It's overpowered and if anyone thinks differently, or that it is OK because its a 2Hr spell, they're wrong. The only sense the OP is wrong here is that we don't need a weaker version of Embrava or Kaustra outside of Tabula Rasa, we already have them. Well... Except for native and Accessionable Haste that is. Tabula Rasa was weak therefore Embrava does not make sense though, 2Hrs in general are weak and Embrava goes far beyond making Tabula Rasa less useless. The only adjustment Tabula Rasa needed was "Stratagems do not wear off upon casting", so we wouldn't need to waste 50% of its duration reapplying the damn things, though they tripled the duration of it anyway so whatever. As it is now, Tabula Rasa without Embrava is still above average, Embrava just pushes it into absolutely ridiculous levels.

Honestly, I don't see any reason for Embrava (or Kaustra) to have the duration they do. Nerf them down to the same duration as PD and lets leave it at that, there is no reason for a 2Hr to last nearly 15 minutes. Nyzul Isle will be impossible but its obvious that F100 is meant to be anyway and I'd rather not have every single suggestion or update eclipsed by Embrava. Oh they fixed Modus Veritas? That's great, now cast Embrava. Oh Libra is useful now? That's great, now cast Embrava. Oh you want a new ability? But that would be overpowered, you already have Embrava.

Embrava is the be all and end all of SCH, they can either nerf it, delete it or give every job something on the exact same level. Leaving things as they are is completely unacceptable though.

TL;DR -
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg405/scaled.php?server=405&filename=zetsuboushita.jpg&res=landing

[Badieh]

Are you serious? A job that's required in one endgame event and can solo almost everything else is no longer useful just because you can't do it all?

.


Hello!

[Merton9999]

Well I'll never stop agreeing with the modus and Libra suggestions at least. As stated a million times on this board simply remove modus' ability to stack and make it not miss. It becomes useful for the single SCH again without the potential to one-shot HNMs. You know what I think would be funny, though? Take a page from the Meteor implementation and add a super rare piece of gear that makes modus land 100% on everything and still allow it to stack :) Just kidding, kind of.

Libra is a laughable disappointment still. A rep post from long ago hinted at adding more info to it. The range is still ridiculous though.

Beyond that I might have agreed with the other suggestions, but I'm quite happy with the job now after changes to healing potency, Regen V and Kaustra/Embrava. I get to play it as much as I want in VW, Nyzule, Dynamis and Abyssea. Some of those occurrences may be for a single spell, yes, but I'm not sure I care about that or that it's anything unusual - I know I was only invited to xp parties on RDM for one spell for years. Bad design? Sure, but the bottom line for me is that whatever gets me in the door I play the job to its fullest and show everyone why they should have invited me on SCH even if I didn't have Embrava! :p

I'm happy with Stromsurge's stat boost. The proximity requirement and one-for-all boost spells means on WHM I cannot realistically full-time an optimal bonus in fights where they matter. If I can only keep them up half the time on WHM and have no problem full-timing a boost on SCH appropriate for each job and ws, a half-potency number is appropriate to me.

[Krystal]

Sch shouldn't be wanted for a SINGLE SPELL, that in itself points out the big problem with sch. Unless they want them for that single spell, they don't want them. that's why sch needs fixed

[Zerich]

Wait, SCH was useful?
...
...
...
Joking aside, the vast amount of bandwagon SCHs Embravaing in [A] (dear god why did you bring SCH to [A]?!) is borderline infuriating and one of the many reasons I hesitate to touch mine anymore.

[Muras]

Sch shouldn't be wanted for a SINGLE SPELL, that in itself points out the big problem with sch. Unless they want them for that single spell, they don't want them. that's why sch needs fixed

I agree that invites to events as a SCH aren't very common, but that's more of an issue with the community itself and them not knowing what a good SCH can do (And crappy bandwagon SCHs don't help of course). And part of the reason why people want Embrava is because it's something only SCH can do. To make people want SCH for something, SE will need to give SCH something useful and unique. That's why giving SCH stuff other jobs have already won't solve any problems.

For example, giving SCH Cure V at this point won't solve anything. After the cure adjustments, SCH can already restore another players HP to full with a Raptured Cure IV (And in Abyssea, come close to it). Even if we did have Cure V, then what? WHM still exists. They too have Cure V. And VI. WHM works just fine. In fact, even though I know SCH can main heal perfectly fine, WHM is the specialist in the area and will always be superior, as it should be. SCH is a great 2nd best healer though.

If you really want to improve SCH, you need to come up with stuff that doesn't already exist in the game, and stuff that makes sense for SCH to have. For example, giving SCH the ability to remove Amnesia doesn't make sense, because WHM should have that first. That's also why giving SCH a weaker Saboteur strategem makes no sense (And RDM itself doesn't exactly get invited for that anyways). Nobody invites WHM for it's Boost spells either, they're just extra, so Stormsurge changes will do nothing. And we got an enmity down strategem for Black Magic with Equanimity.

Don't get me wrong though. SCH is one of my favorite jobs and I'm happy to see other people who enjoy it like I do and want to make it better. But I also know SCH is far from being useless when played right. It's not supposed to be the best healer, or even "Just barely worse than WHM". I main heal all the time and nobody even comes close to dying (Except for mob TP moves that're meant to put players into red, but that'd happen with a WHM too). If people are fully healed and alive, what more could anyone want? And it's not supposed to be about big explosions like BLM. Every time I do a 500ish Helix I know I just dealt 9k damage provided the mob lives at least 3 mins. Then I nuke it some more with tier Vs.

So again, come up with stuff that doesn't exist. A quick example might be...

Spell: Affligo (Laten for weaken)
Description: Gradually decreases target's TP.
Type: Enfeebling/Dark

So the opposite of Adloquium. If it dealt 10 TP/tick similar to BLU's plauge from Delta Thrust you could see some serious results. Everyone likes less monster TP moves. Would it improve invites? Probably not. But it's a start.

[Luvbunny]

Sorry Krystal, SCH may not be the ultimate perfect healer or nuker like a WHM or BLM, but the job is far far far from broken at all. In fact the jobs is quite good as it is, and great if it played by a player who understands the job perfectly. Let me share a tip with you, a scholar who knows what the job can do, and geared right eliminate the need of a whm in a worm party, or ugly range party, with ISL popping every 5-10 mnts the whole party never really need healing. Embrava + Regen 5 take care of that, and it can be applied to the whole alliance when it comes to Embrava. As many has stated the job can have a few tweaks and perhaps a couple more unique spells, but as it is, its sitting pretty at extremely quite good job. Self Skillchains + MB, unique 2 hours, quite potent +2 empyrean armor set, etc... MANY MANY players are quite oblivious, ignorant, dumb, stupid, when it comes to certain non mainstream jobs, even when certain jobs suddenly see a bandwagon spike, ex: beast master, many of these so called bandwagoner have little clue on what the job can do at its full potential. Don't blame yourself that many of your LS members have no idea on what scholar can do. Strive to be a good scholar and show them what you can do :) The job is far from useless.

[Ophannus]

Sch shouldn't be wanted for a SINGLE SPELL,
RDM-Refresh? WHM-Cure V/VI?


-Adoloquiem is amazing for fights.
-The ability to AoE ailments across alliances without Yagrush is pretty sweet, WHM/SCH could do it too, if they opt to use that sub but only once every 2 minutes.
-Boost BLM and COR damage/Accuracy with Storms/Klimaforms.
-Unparalleled DoT spell damage between MP conservation and Ebullience and raw dot/tick damage from Bio2/Kaustra/Helices.
-Only job that can AoE cure across parties.
-Phalanxga
-Regen V AoE is ridiculous healing over time. It freakin heals 3.5k in the span of its duration with Perpetuance for a little over 100 mp.
-Animus Mineo is actually useful in long fights like Odin.
-Embrava. Probably in the top 3 best 2hrs along with Astral Flow and Wild Card.
-Regen V with Tabula Rasa+Embrava heals everyone 3500HP PER MINUTE.

[Luvbunny]

Yup, thanks for listing all the thing SCH can do Orphannus, the job is far from broken, especially in the hand of seasoned player.

[Rezeak]

SCH is the best Healing over time job
SCH is the most mp effiecent nuker in the game
SCH has the strongest 2hr in the game

If you think SCH is broken ur either a troll or you need to learn to play SCH better.

SCH has some useless stuff but so does every other job in the game get over it

[Meyi]

As much as I'd love to agree with you on most of what you said, we pale in comparison to blm and whm do to their OP spells and abilities.

As you should. SCH is both jobs at once, and therefore should not excel the same as the two specialized classes. A SCH can heal better than a Black Mage, and nuke better than a White Mage. Also, Neo-Nyzul pretty much demands good Scholars in order to function. They're far from useless.

[Afania]

Sch shouldn't be wanted for a SINGLE SPELL, that in itself points out the big problem with sch. Unless they want them for that single spell, they don't want them. that's why sch needs fixed



Lol a lot of jobs isn't wanted with 100 spells/JA/WS etc, and SCH is wanted but you're still not happy? XDDDDDD

Besides embrava, SCH alacrity stun is extremely useful for many EG event, 3 SCH alacrity stun in legion makes it so easy. You need 2 SCH for nyzul, 3 SCH for legion and at least one for Prov, such a demanding job and why ppl still not happy with it XDDDDDD

[Babekeke]

in abby

This said it all for me

[Aisu]

As stated in many previous threads Scholar has a few abilities that have no use what-so-ever in abby.

Spells: Embrava and Kaustra, Extremely powerful, almost over powered, the biggest issue with this however is they are only useful when under sch two hour effect, thus they are useful for about 2-3mins and then are absolutely useless for two hours.

only 2-3 minutes? last i check it can last for upto 12 minutes and 30 seconds and can be recasted before the 3 minutes on tabula is up for about 15 minutes of usefulness and in abyssea build azure and let them get them ISL boxes for constant embrava. You just blew my mind posting such a thread.

[Raksha]

RDM-Refresh? WHM-Cure V/VI?


-Adoloquiem is amazing for fights.
-The ability to AoE ailments across alliances without Yagrush is pretty sweet, WHM/SCH could do it too, if they opt to use that sub but only once every 2 minutes.
-Boost BLM and COR damage/Accuracy with Storms/Klimaforms.
-Unparalleled DoT spell damage between MP conservation and Ebullience and raw dot/tick damage from Bio2/Kaustra/Helices.
-Only job that can AoE cure across parties.
-Phalanxga
-Regen V AoE is ridiculous healing over time. It freakin heals 3.5k in the span of its duration with Perpetuance for a little over 100 mp.
-Animus Mineo is actually useful in long fights like Odin.
-Embrava. Probably in the top 3 best 2hrs along with Astral Flow and Wild Card.
-Regen V with Tabula Rasa+Embrava heals everyone 3500HP PER MINUTE.


-Adloquium is retardedly weak
-If you dont have a whm/healer in every DD party then you're doing it wrong (unless you're PDing)
-no one cares about BLM, and WHM can firestorm the COR if needed
-On anything worth fighting, helixes do crap damage. MV doesnt work either. Most bosses are strong to magic damage/ dark damage anyway so kaustra has limited utility. I think the only time I got a good kaustra it was magic bursted on prov watcher for like 800 dmg
-This is a useful feature, but really if you're taking that much aoe damage and your whms can't handle it you should be using PD
-useless
-best used on a super tanking pld or something so you can set it and forget it (tm)
-no it isnt
-yep
-embrava is usually good enough, but might as well

If you're talking about easy shit sch is pretty damn good, but in legion for example All i do is embrava and babysit the ochain PLD. And while the /BLM stun lock idea seems to work for JPs, it was less than stellar in our run last night. Hopefully with practice it'll get better.


SCH is the best Healing over time job
SCH is the most mp effiecent nuker in the game
SCH has the strongest 2hr in the game

If you think SCH is broken ur either a troll or you need to learn to play SCH better.

SCH has some useless stuff but so does every other job in the game get over it

PD
No one cares about nuking
Ronco (tm)

I dont think SCH is defective, but It's nowhere near as game breaking as people make it out to be. Embrava is powerful but theres no reason not to bring a mule for it.

Some things are useless because we grow out of them (blizzard 1 vs blizzard5 for example) and some things were designed to be useless (adloquium/libra/animus). We should fix the latter category.

[Mirabelle]

Sch shouldn't be wanted for a SINGLE SPELL, that in itself points out the big problem with sch. Unless they want them for that single spell, they don't want them. that's why sch needs fixed

RDM from 2003 to 2008 says Hi

[Scuro]

I agree with Krystal, SCH really isn't that desired outside of Abyssea or Void Watch, and if it is used its because its a small get together group that generally doesn't give a flying f*ck at a rolling donut as long as it "cures". SCH can't keep up with the cure rates of WHM, and I'm ok with SCH's nuke ability with BLM (Try Skillchaining your Magic, it'll blow your mind). Modus Veritas is a joke now a days, and if you say differ you obviously don't take SCH seriously, don't play it, or generally suck at it/never use it. The thing barely EVER sticks, and when it does good luck trying to get more SCH's to land on it. Also what pisses me off EVEN MORE about this ability, is that its based off of virtually no stat/skill/etc. as to the accuracy of the ability. Its literally chance and that makes for shitty game mechanics. If you're going to make the accuracy low, at least let us have a stat that boosts its accuracy (Quickdraw to Magic Attack for instance). OR HERE IS AN EVEN BETTER IDEA!

Instead of being f*cking morons on SCH's ability to spam Modus Veritas and down JoL Do This!
Make the ability party exclusive, so if a SCH from the party uses it only SCH's in the party can stack on top of it, this way its confined to a max of 6 people using modus (or hell if you want make it a max of 3 people if you so please). Also if you want to say "Well what if every party had all SCHs and they did the same thing it wouldn't solve anything!" Here is an EVEN MORE genius idea! Make it so that if anyone else casts it, it will erase the previous modus/helix. So if Party A Casts a Helix and does 3 Modus, and Party B casts a Helix (different or same) and does 1 modus verities, you will have only Party B's Helix with x1 Modus active, the previous being overwritten.

Also No one cares about this "healing over time" garbage, thats great, but too bad that like 10 tic or even 20 tics, won't give you back the health right away that will save some asses when an Abyssea mob gets off a lucky TP move and puts a character in red and you have about 5 seconds to save his ass.... Go ahead and slap a regen on him and:

A. Get a big "WTF ARE YOU DOING MORON!"
B. Watch as your tank gets face raped 10x to Sunday

Cure V is needed, I've seen groups and people rather disband parties or cancel runs, because they have a SCH for heals.

(Granted SCH/BLM vs Briareus = Win!)

And I agree, SCH shouldn't be equal to WHM or BLM, HOWEVER! It should be able to facilitate the roles of those two jobs WELL when they are not available to a group. As of right now, the only job SCH can do "well" is BLM, yet on the WHM side, we're using a 55 Spell at 99, just think about how ridiculous that is to use a curing spell that maybe cured decent at 75.... at 99, then get back to me.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Oh, that old chestnut.

We need Cure V to be good, wah!

Cure IV is crazy over-powered for SCH, and SCH can EASILY heal in "Abyssea" they wont be chosen because of the procs, not curing ability.

SCH doesn't need Cure V
Yes it's annoying to still not have a new spell since such a low level, but whatever!

ModusVeritas is crap, but it was SCH's fault for abusing it and we all know how petty SE is, the only fix needed is to put accuracy back to 100% and limit the increase to ONE person.

Player One: Helix
Player One: Modus Veritas (lands)
Player Two: Modus Veritas (no effect)

SCH is supposed to be a "battle tactician" so SE need to focus on that, not trying to steal other jobs roles.

PS 1. Regen V assists Cure IV, if you don't know that then simply: Wow!

PS 2: You mean SCH isn't desired outside of Abyssea, Voidwatch, Nyzul Isle and Legion, (probably neoSalvage too) you know the current endgame, whether for one spell or not, big woop, worked for RDM (Refresh) for so many years. Be grateful for that.

[Alistaire]

This thread is amazingly out of touch with how the game is.

[Behemothx]

Winner of the most clueless post of 2012.

SCH useless... That's new, I play it daily and people even send me /tell's to get in their groups.

[Luvbunny]

I think Krystalls just does not know how to play scholar effectively and surrounded by a bunch of LS mates who are just as clueless on what a good scholar can do when they know how to play the job correctly and geared right. Every job has their specialties or two. You invite whm to cure, blm to nuke, and sch are more support jobs that complement the other two very well and more wanted than RDM.

[Lojinxx]

Y do you need cure V and more healing strategems when u can accesion+perpetuance regen 5 and phalanx and have to cure less than a whm? And y do you need more dmg on sch blm spells when youre such a powerful support job, have an amazing 2hr that makes a party nearly invincible for 15 minutes? Nou sure where OP gets 2-3 minutes from... Also the job is a moderately powerful nuker already with nice gear. Sounds like the op doesnt know how to play his job to its' full potential. SE HAS DONE AN EXCELLENT JOB WITH SCH!

[Badieh]

I agree with Krystal, SCH really isn't that desired outside of Abyssea or Void Watch, and if it is used its because its a small get together group that generally doesn't give a flying f*ck at a rolling donut as long as it "cures". SCH can't keep up with the cure rates of WHM, and I'm ok with SCH's nuke ability with BLM (Try Skillchaining your Magic, it'll blow your mind). Modus Veritas is a joke now a days, and if you say differ you obviously don't take SCH seriously, don't play it, or generally suck at it/never use it. The thing barely EVER sticks, and when it does good luck trying to get more SCH's to land on it. Also what pisses me off EVEN MORE about this ability, is that its based off of virtually no stat/skill/etc. as to the accuracy of the ability. Its literally chance and that makes for shitty game mechanics. If you're going to make the accuracy low, at least let us have a stat that boosts its accuracy (Quickdraw to Magic Attack for instance). OR HERE IS AN EVEN BETTER IDEA!

Instead of being f*cking morons on SCH's ability to spam Modus Veritas and down JoL Do This!
Make the ability party exclusive, so if a SCH from the party uses it only SCH's in the party can stack on top of it, this way its confined to a max of 6 people using modus (or hell if you want make it a max of 3 people if you so please). Also if you want to say "Well what if every party had all SCHs and they did the same thing it wouldn't solve anything!" Here is an EVEN MORE genius idea! Make it so that if anyone else casts it, it will erase the previous modus/helix. So if Party A Casts a Helix and does 3 Modus, and Party B casts a Helix (different or same) and does 1 modus verities, you will have only Party B's Helix with x1 Modus active, the previous being overwritten.

Also No one cares about this "healing over time" garbage, thats great, but too bad that like 10 tic or even 20 tics, won't give you back the health right away that will save some asses when an Abyssea mob gets off a lucky TP move and puts a character in red and you have about 5 seconds to save his ass.... Go ahead and slap a regen on him and:

A. Get a big "WTF ARE YOU DOING MORON!"
B. Watch as your tank gets face raped 10x to Sunday

Cure V is needed, I've seen groups and people rather disband parties or cancel runs, because they have a SCH for heals.

(Granted SCH/BLM vs Briareus = Win!)

And I agree, SCH shouldn't be equal to WHM or BLM, HOWEVER! It should be able to facilitate the roles of those two jobs WELL when they are not available to a group. As of right now, the only job SCH can do "well" is BLM, yet on the WHM side, we're using a 55 Spell at 99, just think about how ridiculous that is to use a curing spell that maybe cured decent at 75.... at 99, then get back to me.


Aww gur!... Sit down!...

[saevel]

Krys just doesn't know what their talking about.

LA has a +24 potency bonus on all regen spells, that is BEYOND ridiculous.

Lets start with Regen 1 shall we.

15 MP
75s duration (25 ticks)
5hp/tick for everyone BUT SCH. For Sch it's 29 hp/tick.
725HP for 15MP, 48.3 HP per MP spent.

But ya know, that's not enough, sometimes you need more.

Regen IV
82MP (74 with LA)
60s duration (20 ticks)
30HP/tick, 54hp/tick for SCH
1080HP for 74MP, 14.59HP per MP spent, not nearly as nice as Regen 1 but faster.

Regen V
100MP (90 with LA)
60s duration
40hp/tick, really 64hp/tick as only SCH can cast this spell.
1280HP for 14.2MP per HP spent, not as nice as Regen 1 but much faster.

You can AOE and give a 2.5 duration bonus on all those. It will cure your DD's while your busy removing status ailments or tossing cure III / IV's. It also stacks with Embrava for 100+ hp/tick, damn near a miniature brew which makes your DD's godlike.

Now for Embrava, the ultimate zerg spells. Tied as the single most powerful ability in the game (Perfect Defense being the other).

Requires 2H and consumes 20% of MP (10% with JA usage). Lasts 5min but can be extended to 12.5 with JA usage.
People talk about getting 500 skill, but that's pretty hard and requires quite a bit of money. Instead lets go with a much more common 430 enhancing build. What does a SCH get for 430 enhancing?

61HP/tick Regen (125 when combined with Regen V)
5TP/tick Regain
29.6% Haste (caps magic haste when combined with Haste spell)

Others can go into the DA nuking aspects, I'm only glossing over the LA side which is more then enough by itself to justify the job. -NA spells that you can aoe, B healing magic skill and access to enspells / stoneskin / phalanx / haste / refresh 1 (/RDM) and a native MP restoration ability.

Seriously SCH rocks as a mage. It's not as good as WHM at healing nor as good as BLM as nuking but it can more then hold it's own. It's much power powerful then RDM ever was.

[Sotek]

Well, going off Google Translator, all the new 2Hrs pale in comparison to Embrava, a swing and a miss SE. The vast majority look worthless.

SCHs is particularly (pathetically) funny. I guess I should wait for official translations, but it sounds like "Absorb the enmity of all party members", basically "Use this on anything worth a damn and you die". It's like the original Mijin Gakure but infinitely dumber, it has literally no practical use. If you're in the tank party, you should never use it. If you're in the BLM PT, BLMs can wipe their own enmity, if you're in the DD party, the DD party is the tank party. I'd hope it absorbs party enmity then wipes it completely, otherwise this 2Hr is exactly what I expected SCH to get after Embrava; the most worthless thing in the game. Even if it does wipe enmity it's still damn near worthless, would have been great as a 10 minute ability to go along side Libra actually.

I'm sure I'm going to get a load of "You already have Embrava, why do you care if this 2Hr sucks?!?!", so here's why:

This 2Hr is an indication of what SCH will get from now on, we have Embrava so anything more would be overpowered, enjoy shit for the rest of this games life. If you want to tell me I should enjoy shit because of Embrava, I want to introduce my boot to your balls, repeatably.

RDM was only wanted for a single spell so this is OK? That has to be the biggest load of bullcrap I've heard on this forum. Any job being wanted for a single spell is extremely poor games design. It was like that in 2004 so it's OK for it to be like this in 2012? Bullshit. It wasn't OK in 2004 and people even complained about it in 2004, anyone mentioning RDM in this thread is just being idiotic. I cannot comprehend how anyone can even think likening SCH now to RDM then is a good idea, you know what RDM is like now, right? Are we supposed to be happy at that bright and shining future? If SE addressed the core problems with RDM rather than going "They have Refresh, everyone wants them by default", maybe the job wouldn't have become down right worthless along with Refresh. Same argument for SCH now, if they built upon Modus, built upon Libra, built upon weather, SCH wouldn't even need Embrava at all.

I would rather not have Embrava and have new, interesting and well thought out abilities and spells for the duration of this game, than have Embrava and have whoever designed this new 2Hr come up with more brilliant ideas for this job, assuming we get anything past g3 merits.

Edit: And there's the official translation. OK, that sounds better. Still hardly 2Hr worthy though, take off the "whole party" bit and make it "Player As enmity to Player B" and it would be the perfect normal ability to have gone along side Libra. Why the hell do they need to introduce a 2Hr ability to make Libra worth a damn? I guess at least it means they've got enmity control back in mind, just like removing Modus from Voidwatch lead to them fixing Modu.... Oh right...

Would be nice if it temporarily gave the target a higher enmity cap, as it is you wipe party hate to give the tank unneeded enmity, it's just AoE Enmity Douse which I will abuse to MPK people. Having it increase their enmity cap would be significantly more useful since it would actually bring some sense of tanking back to the game, albeit temporarily.

[Raksha]

Well, going off Google Translator, all the new 2Hrs pale in comparison to Embrava, a swing and a miss SE. The vast majority look worthless.

SCHs is particularly (pathetically) funny. I guess I should wait for official translations, but it sounds like "Absorb the enmity of all party members", basically "Use this on anything worth a damn and you die". It's like the original Mijin Gakure but infinitely dumber, it has literally no practical use. If you're in the tank party, you should never use it. If you're in the BLM PT, BLMs can wipe their own enmity, if you're in the DD party, the DD party is the tank party. I'd hope it absorbs party enmity then wipes it completely, otherwise this 2Hr is exactly what I expected SCH to get after Embrava; the most worthless thing in the game. Even if it does wipe enmity it's still damn near worthless, would have been great as a 10 minute ability to go along side Libra actually.

I'm sure I'm going to get a load of "You already have Embrava, why do you care if this 2Hr sucks?!?!", so here's why:

This 2Hr is an indication of what SCH will get from now on, we have Embrava so anything more would be overpowered, enjoy shit for the rest of this games life. If you want to tell me I should enjoy shit because of Embrava, I want to introduce my boot to your balls, repeatably.

RDM was only wanted for a single spell so this is OK? That has to be the biggest load of bullcrap I've heard on this forum. Any job being wanted for a single spell is extremely poor games design. It was like that in 2004 so it's OK for it to be like this in 2012? Bullshit. It wasn't OK in 2004 and people even complained about it in 2004, anyone mentioning RDM in this thread is just being idiotic. I cannot comprehend how anyone can even think likening SCH now to RDM then is a good idea, you know what RDM is like now, right? Are we supposed to be happy at that bright and shining future? If SE addressed the core problems with RDM rather than going "They have Refresh, everyone wants them by default", maybe the job wouldn't have become down right worthless along with Refresh. Same argument for SCH now, if they built upon Modus, built upon Libra, built upon weather, SCH wouldn't even need Embrava at all.

I would rather not have Embrava and have new, interesting and well thought out abilities and spells for the duration of this game, than have Embrava and have whoever designed this new 2Hr come up with more brilliant ideas for this job, assuming we get anything past g3 merits.

Edit: And there's the official translation. OK, that sounds better. Still hardly 2Hr worthy though, take off the "whole party" bit and make it "Player As enmity to Player B" and it would be the perfect normal ability to have gone along side Libra. Why the hell do they need to introduce a 2Hr ability to make Libra worth a damn? I guess at least it means they've got enmity control back in mind, just like removing Modus from Voidwatch lead to them fixing Modu.... Oh right...

Would be nice if it temporarily gave the target a higher enmity cap, as it is you wipe party hate to give the tank unneeded enmity, it's just AoE Enmity Douse which I will abuse to MPK people. Having it increase their enmity cap would be significantly more useful since it would actually bring some sense of tanking back to the game, albeit temporarily.


SE should listen to this guy.

[Delvish]

Would be nice if it temporarily gave the target a higher enmity cap, as it is you wipe party hate to give the tank unneeded enmity, it's just AoE Enmity Douse which I will abuse to MPK people. Having it increase their enmity cap would be significantly more useful since it would actually bring some sense of tanking back to the game, albeit temporarily.

I too will abuse the heck out of this. Hey, if we make this popular enough you think they'll give us something new?

OOC: I hate you Sotek for sparking my curiosity every time I've see you on the forums. Started watching Madoka Magica. -o-;

[Calatilla]

Krystal
Scholar used to be able to heal and nuke just under par or on par with their blm and whm counterparts, ever since the new tier spells and abilities have been introduced, they pale in comparison to the two now. Scholar is no longer seen as a alternative nuker or healer anymore.

SCH`s ability to effect the weather around them actually helps their spells out. SCH can easily get a 1k cure IV off under Aurostorm inside abyssea, Nyzul Isle and Limbus with double weather bonus, 1200+ SCH doesn't need cure V.

Nuking wise a well geared SCH is on par with an equally geared BLM on single target nukes. Helix spells do dmg every 9 seconds and unresisted can do 5k+ dmg.

SCH is more than capable of filling in for both WHM and BLM when proc`s aren't needed. Go play RDM if you want a job to fix, that should keep you busy for awhile.

[saevel]

Sotek..

Would you like to sacrifice / nerf embrava for ~something~ else?

I ask this because ~anything~ SE gives SCH from here on out will be on top of what Embrava does (12~15 min god mode).

You can b1tch moan and complain to your hearts content, nobody will stop you, nobody will take you seriously either. Right now there are several broken jobs in the game, SCH is not one of them. SCH is one of the few jobs that SE eventually got right, be happy about that. Be glad SE didn't decide that SCH would be "the DoT nuker" yet decide that in order to preserve BLM's place as the best nuker they would prevent SCH's DoT's from being any good. That would of rendered SCH a second / third rate nuker and nothing else. Instead SE took the idea's from the RDM forum added some of their own and supercharged SCH into one of the most powerful jobs in the game.

If someone's only paying SCH for embrava, then their doing it wrong.

[Lyberty]

Bwaaaaaaaaaa!!!!! SCH is not wanted in anything.... ONLY endgame.... Omg guys are you serious???? This thread reminds me of SAMs willing to dual weild GK...

[Raksha]

If someone's only paying SCH for embrava, then their doing it wrong.


Half the people I know have a SCH embrava mule. What are your reasons to invite a real-deal SCH again?

[Nala]

SCH`s ability to effect the weather around them actually helps their spells out. SCH can easily get a 1k cure IV off under Aurostorm inside abyssea, Nyzul Isle and Limbus with double weather bonus, 1200+ SCH doesn't need cure V.

Nuking wise a well geared SCH is on par with an equally geared BLM on single target nukes. Helix spells do dmg every 9 seconds and unresisted can do 5k+ dmg.

SCH is more than capable of filling in for both WHM and BLM when proc`s aren't needed. Go play RDM if you want a job to fix, that should keep you busy for awhile.

I'm capable of 1.3k with shitty cure potency gear (using chatoyant staff, atma of the rescuer, aurorastorm, rapture, obi and twilight cape)

[Calatilla]

I'm capable of 1.3k with shitty cure potency gear (using chatoyant staff, atma of the rescuer, aurorastorm, rapture, obi and twilight cape)

I was referring to base cures, outside of rapture, which isn't needed all that much either. It's handy if someone takes a big hit and you need to top them off quickly.

[Siiri]

Half the people I know have a SCH embrava mule. What are your reasons to invite a real-deal SCH again?

The whole "support " mule is of course not just a scholar issue. Most people with a scholar mule used to have a red mage mule back in the ToAU era, morphing into a white mage mule during abyssea, now a scholar mule for legion and neo-nyzul. I guess the main job of the support mule is a good indicator of the current most overpowered mage, a position scholar has inherited with embrava.

No doubt a real scholar has a lot more to offer than a scholar mule, but as Raksha says, most people only care about embrava. Look at neo nyzul one scholar is at the lamp all the time anyway.

[Lisotte]

No doubt a real scholar has a lot more to offer than a scholar mule, but as Raksha says, most people only care about embrava. Look at neo nyzul one scholar is at the lamp all the time anyway.


lol you probably are going to want SOMEONE at the lamp all the time; might as well let it be the one with the broken 2-hour spell, who also gets buffs, raise and such.

BTW I'm still not sure if the OP is serious or trollin'. Because if he is trolling... he's sure been successful.

[Terrigenesis]

rofl more SCH QQing. At least you get invited. Try being a RDM then you can QQ.

[Lyberty]

rofl more SCH QQing. At least you get invited. Try being a RDM then you can QQ.

My point exactly... Bunch of SCH cry babies -.-

[Mirage]

SCH`s ability to effect the weather around them actually helps their spells out. SCH can easily get a 1k cure IV off under Aurostorm inside abyssea, Nyzul Isle and Limbus with double weather bonus, 1200+ SCH doesn't need cure V.

Nuking wise a well geared SCH is on par with an equally geared BLM on single target nukes. Helix spells do dmg every 9 seconds and unresisted can do 5k+ dmg.

SCH is more than capable of filling in for both WHM and BLM when proc`s aren't needed. Go play RDM if you want a job to fix, that should keep you busy for awhile.

Not to mention, Cure IV is actually more MP efficient than V nowadays.

[Fupafighter]

Sch is a beautiful job that possesses the best 2 hour in the game. What more could a mage seriously ask for? Play the job right and the job will impress you >.>

[Sotek]

Sch is a beautiful job that possesses the best 2 hour in the game. What more could a mage seriously ask for? Play the job right and the job will impress you >.>

For just under a dozen of my abilities not to be damn near worthless?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

For just under a dozen of my abilities not to be damn near worthless?

I can only count two, well maybe five.

Libra
Modus Veritas
(spell) Enmity down one
(spell) Enmity up one
(spell) Regain (though still somewhat useful)

[Sotek]

I can only count two, well maybe five.

Libra
Modus Veritas
(spell) Enmity down one
(spell) Enmity up one
(spell) Regain (though still somewhat useful)

I count nine.

Modus Veritas - Absolutely worthless.
Libra - Range needs fixing but other than that it needs abilities/spells to supplement it to be worthwhile (these don't even really need to be on SCH).
Penury, Parsimony, Sublimation - Not broken by any means, but game mechanics have rendered these near worthless for the same reason RDM isn't invited for Refresh anymore.
Altruism, Focalization - Same as above, just for magic accuracy, even then Altruism will never really be that useful.
Immanence - Until Skillchains get reformed this is damn near impossible to use properly in any real situation.
Enlightenment - At the very least this needs to work like Tabula Rasa when casting spells from the opposite Arts considering the description is almost exactly the same, the actual mechanics of what this is meant to do don't really work either though.

Like I said before, most aren't broken it's just game mechanics render them fairly useless. Not doing Voidwatch is an easy solution to most of these complaints, but that's probably why most of the time I only complain about Modus Veritas and Libra. I'd add the new 2Hr to the list as well but I guess I should be fair and wait for those long awaited Enmity reforms SE has planned. If we're counting spells I agree with Animus spells sucking (and for the record they don't stack with the Enmity Stratagems which is irksome) but Adloquium is fine as is.

[Nala]

As far as libra goes one of the original abilities of scholar on ff3 was peep(peek) which was kind of useless even then considering it was just an mp free libra spell, depending on the FF libra would sometimes give far more in depth information on monsters.

Considering players tend to analyze most mobs on our own would be interesting if libra instead scanned some or all of a monsters data (some info obtainable via defeating mob, some via using libra, could take multiple tries to fill out 100% for each mob) and added it to some kind of beistary, could contain very specific info on monsters, that'd be cool at least... would probably take too much effort on the dev team, not to mention that'd be way outside what i'd expect from the dev team at this point, letting us know the elemental weakness/strength of a mob? exact int/vit ect??? /ps2limitations

[Eric]

I know everyone plays the job different, but I have to say that I disagree with 3 of the abilities you listed as useless.

Parsimony is great when you're nuking outside Abyssea or VW where MP efficiency actually still matters. These situations are rare, and usually only apply when I'm soloing stuff, but I think it was worth mentioning, given that it used to be one of SCH's biggest advantages over BLM.

Immanence is amazing given you're using Tabula Rasa and you're using it to self-Skillchain so you can magic burst Kaustra/helices. I guess it's not really that effective in VW where people are spamming weaponskills and you can't really properly coordinate a skillchain.

Enlightenment, in my opinion, isn't completely useless, since I do use it frequently-ish(for things other than recasting reraise), but it could definitely use some improvements. I would love for it to work like Tabula Rasa just so I could cast Regen V on myself and gain its full effect while under Addendum: Black.

[Afania]

Half the people I know have a SCH embrava mule. What are your reasons to invite a real-deal SCH again?

Ppl have BRD mule, WHM mule, COR mule, SMN mule, RDM mule and TH mule all the time or even WAR NIN mule in abby all the time, so that's not really SCH issue.

[Sotek]

As far as libra goes one of the original abilities of scholar on ff3 was peep(peek) which was kind of useless even then considering it was just an mp free libra spell, depending on the FF libra would sometimes give far more in depth information on monsters.

Considering players tend to analyze most mobs on our own would be interesting if libra instead scanned some or all of a monsters data (some info obtainable via defeating mob, some via using libra, could take multiple tries to fill out 100% for each mob) and added it to some kind of beistary, could contain very specific info on monsters, that'd be cool at least... would probably take too much effort on the dev team, not to mention that'd be way outside what i'd expect from the dev team at this point, letting us know the elemental weakness/strength of a mob? exact int/vit ect??? /ps2limitations

Wouldn't that just become worthless once you've finished scanning every mob in the game? My initial idea for scan was for it to show what a monster is weak to, both physical and magical, and boost damage dealt to it by those for everyone in the party/alliance. So if you scanned a Colibri it would tell everyone it is weak to piercing weapons and ice magic and both would do an additional 10% damage. An ability that just gives us information on a mob will either be worthless from the get-go because we already know the important stuff, or will eventually be worthless when we know everything thanks to it. We pretty much already know what mobs are weak to so that's the only reason I add the damage boost. It would certainly be useful if they added more mobs like the Jailer which switches its physical weakness.


I know everyone plays the job different, but I have to say that I disagree with 3 of the abilities you listed as useless.

Parsimony is great when you're nuking outside Abyssea or VW where MP efficiency actually still matters. These situations are rare, and usually only apply when I'm soloing stuff, but I think it was worth mentioning, given that it used to be one of SCH's biggest advantages over BLM.

Immanence is amazing given you're using Tabula Rasa and you're using it to self-Skillchain so you can magic burst Kaustra/helices. I guess it's not really that effective in VW where people are spamming weaponskills and you can't really properly coordinate a skillchain.

Enlightenment, in my opinion, isn't completely useless, since I do use it frequently-ish(for things other than recasting reraise), but it could definitely use some improvements. I would love for it to work like Tabula Rasa just so I could cast Regen V on myself and gain its full effect while under Addendum: Black.

Like I said, not doing Voidwatch is an easy fix to a lot of my issues with some of these abilities, if we had better endgame content a lot of these would be non-issues. Party situations in general just prevent these abilities from being useful though, MP efficiency used to set SCH apart but now I can't help but laugh when people bring up MP efficiency. Immanence is nigh-impossible to use in endgame, anything with six people (Nyzul) the mobs will die too fast (and you wouldn't be nuking anyway), anything with an alliance and there are too many weapon skills going off. Enlightenment I've just never found useful, if I need to cast a na in an emergency I'll probably need two so just switching to Addendum: White would be better and given the cap rise using it from Addendum: White seems completely redundant, the new merit options on it were stupid and it was fairly weak to begin with like Stormsurge, though I guess since 90% of merits are craptastic someones going to throw more ad hominum my way (I do like how my post gets deleted but all the posts QQing over RDM stay).

Other than Modus Veritas none of them are really broken, and I never really said they were, there are just plenty of issues for the developers to address with them and like I said most of the fixes don't even have to be on SCH. Not being lazy with endgame would make Penury/Parsimony/Sublimation worlds more useful, same for Altruism/Focalization. An adjustment to skillchain mechanics wouldn't even be seen as a SCH adjustment but it would address my issue with Immanence and they're more than welcome to give other jobs more THF style enmity abilities and give us an actual reason to care about enmity levels, SCH doesn't need to get anything to make Libra worth using (except a range increase on it), they just need to fix the enmity system properly.

Also, all the people quoting Raksha, instead of saying "Everyone has X mules" how about you answer the actual question; What are your reasons to invite a real-deal SCH again? Especially when people have already posted the exact same thing. The argument was that as a whole SCH only gets invited for Embrava, "People have BRD mules" doesn't counter that argument in the slightest.

I swear, if I have to make another angry post about how sick I am of all the ad hominum arguments that people make here, I will. If the mods want to delete it again they're damn sure welcome to but they better delete all the pointless posts I'm responding to with such a post as well. Though there is a delicious irony in seeing people complain about SCHs QQing when they're pretty much just posting to QQ about RDM.

[Sasaraixx]

Also, all the people quoting Raksha, instead of saying "Everyone has X mules" how about you answer the actual question; What are your reasons to invite a real-deal SCH again? Especially when people have already posted the exact same thing. The argument was that as a whole SCH only gets invited for Embrava, "People have BRD mules" doesn't counter that argument in the slightest.

As usual, I agree with Sotek on just about all of that. I quote this part because it seems that this is going to be a question that really needs to be answered. The latest dev post on the JP forum mentions huge changes to the new and old 2hrs (adjusting effects for balance, splitting shared timers and lowering recast times significantly). Matsui specifically mentions that accompanying this change, Embrava and Perfect Defense will have to be nerfed. . . (I wonder if the new SMN 2hr will get nerfed as well)?

So as Sotek asked, why invite a SCH? It's a question I've been asking for a long time. Remove Embrava from the equation and you are left with what? This may be jumping the gun because we don't know how much it will be nerfed. The Japanese posters are making the very true point that some of the content needs to be adjusted as well if Embrava/PD zergs are no longer viable strategies.

I'm cautiously opt. . . no, just cautious. We'll see.

[Eric]

If they really plan on nerfing Embrava with the new 2-hr updates, I really look forward to being ignored for all end-game events again. I agree with Sotek that SE never really fixed Scholar by introducing Embrava. The fate of the job is completely dependent on the potency of the spell, and it's ridiculous to think that there are no other ways to make the job useful, but SE and the player-base seem to think otherwise.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

If they really plan on nerfing Embrava with the new 2-hr updates, I really look forward to being ignored for all end-game events again. I agree with Sotek that SE never really fixed Scholar by introducing Embrava. The fate of the job is completely dependent on the potency of the spell, and it's ridiculous to think that there are no other ways to make the job useful, but SE and the player-base seem to think otherwise.

It wont get nerfed enough to not be useful.

Besides, it could just as easily be a cover so along with recast reduction to 30 minutes, the merits could increase Potency, Duration or so on. Also since they're going past weakness, SCH will begin being used more often since they can cure ridiculously well, and nuke on top of that, also less temp items to make the MP recovery more useful.

I still fail to see how a job used in EVERY end-game event is useless though. One spell or not.

[Nawesemo]

Lol, welcome to mage purgetory, we've been expecting you just after the Rdms came in all tore up like they had a rough night, but rest easy, being what you are, makes you what you are, you'll always have a place in nyzul.... (At least until the brava/pd nerf)


In anycase, welcome.

Signed, the blms

[Eric]

It wont get nerfed enough to not be useful.

Besides, it could just as easily be a cover so along with recast reduction to 30 minutes, the merits could increase Potency, Duration or so on. Also since they're going past weakness, SCH will begin being used more often since they can cure ridiculously well, and nuke on top of that, also less temp items to make the MP recovery more useful.

I still fail to see how a job used in EVERY end-game event is useless though. One spell or not.
I wasn't aware that you were a clairvoyant.

Also, I was never one of the people arguing that SCH is useless. I'm saying that Embrava wasn't a real fix for the job, and this dev post is a clear indicator of how fragile the job's position in any endgame situation is.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I wasn't aware that you were a clairvoyant.

Also, I was never one of the people arguing that SCH is useless. I'm saying that Embrava wasn't a real fix for the job, and this dev post is a clear indicator of how fragile the job's position in any endgame situation is.

lol, we'll see.

[Sasaraixx]

It wont get nerfed enough to not be useful.

Besides, it could just as easily be a cover so along with recast reduction to 30 minutes, the merits could increase Potency, Duration or so on. Also since they're going past weakness, SCH will begin being used more often since they can cure ridiculously well, and nuke on top of that, also less temp items to make the MP recovery more useful.

I still fail to see how a job used in EVERY end-game event is useless though. One spell or not.

Why would they go through the trouble of nerfing an ability only to increase it's potency through merits? It's clear they believe that having the ability to keep Embrava on an entire alliance 15 minutes out of every half hour at it's current potency is too much. We'll just have to wait an see how much it is weakened.

And SCH is used at every end game event BECAUSE OF EMBRAVA. SCH is in a similar position to, but admittedly not nearly as bad off as RDM. Hybrids aren't really useful for the current content. SCH is in a much better position than RDM solely because of Embrava.

SCH can heal very well and nuke very well. So? In what type of end game event is having both that useful? Where would this be more beneficial than having a WHM or a BLM? There really aren't many instances when having the ability to cover both roles is better than having the specialty job.

Groups are about efficiency and min/maxing. MP efficiency is not going to make *that* much of a difference. WHM is an incredibly efficient healer and nothing is going to remove it from it's perch as the preeminent healer. (And nothing should). There really isn't need of a back-up healer because that slot would be better filled by a support job. That leaves nuking efficiency. Outside of soloing, it hasn't made much of a difference for SCH.

Take away Embrava and we're back to the question SCH's have been asking for years. I'm not putting the nail in the coffin just yet. The nerf may not be too terrible. But it is a cause of concern when one spell defines an entire job. That is why many of us have been asking for adjustments to our existing spells and abilities all this time.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Why would they go through the trouble of nerfing an ability only to increase it's potency through merits? It's clear they believe that having the ability to keep Embrava on an entire alliance 15 minutes out of every half hour at it's current potency is too much. We'll just have to wait an see how much it is weakened.

And SCH is used at every end game event BECAUSE OF EMBRAVA. SCH is in a similar position to, but admittedly not nearly as bad off as RDM. Hybrids aren't really useful for the current content. SCH is in a much better position than RDM solely because of Embrava.

SCH can heal very well and nuke very well. So? In what type of end game event is having both that useful? Where would this be more beneficial than having a WHM or a BLM? There really aren't many instances when having the ability to cover both roles is better than having the specialty job.

Groups are about efficiency and min/maxing. MP efficiency is not going to make *that* much of a difference. WHM is an incredibly efficient healer and nothing is going to remove it from it's perch as the preeminent healer. (And nothing should). There really isn't need of a back-up healer because that slot would be better filled by a support job. That leaves nuking efficiency. Outside of soloing, it hasn't made much of a difference for SCH.

Take away Embrava and we're back to the question SCH's have been asking for years. I'm not putting the nail in the coffin just yet. The nerf may not be too terrible. But it is a cause of concern when one spell defines an entire job. That is why many of us have been asking for adjustments to our existing spells and abilities all this time.

Saboteur and Absorb-TP is proof they do this.

SCH (and to a lesser extent RDM) will be useful in upcoming content due to them moving from Triggers and TEMP items. So MP will become an issue again.

Say what you will about WHM, but it's use is mainly due to how easy MP is to get, remove that and WHM will struggle again. SCH's Regen, Embrava (even gimped) and Cure IV for 1200+ HP will look MUCH more appealing then while WHM will look less appealing.

WHM got very little from 99+ and depending on how they go, I wouldn't count on WHM or even BLM being as untouchable as they are now. 1 SCH is better than 1 WHM and 1 BRD or RDM for Refresh.

[Dantedmc]

Saboteur and Absorb-TP is proof they do this.

SCH (and to a lesser extent RDM) will be useful in upcoming content due to them moving from Triggers and TEMP items. So MP will become an issue again.

Say what you will about WHM, but it's use is mainly due to how easy MP is to get, remove that and WHM will struggle again. SCH's Regen, Embrava (even gimped) and Cure IV for 1200+ HP will look MUCH more appealing then while WHM will look less appealing.

WHM got very little from 99+ and depending on how they go, I wouldn't count on WHM or even BLM being as untouchable as they are now. 1 SCH is better than 1 WHM and 1 BRD or RDM for Refresh.

WHM is pretty mp efficient even without temps. +2 Pants, up to 7 tic refresh from gear, /rdm (refresh / convert) or /sch (LA / sublimation / cmp), can keep up whm up just fine. If the event ever becomes that taxing on mp somehow for whm it will probably require a brd anyway due to difficulty. Just have the brd in the pt use ballad (easy 9 tic refresh with just ballad+ harp and pants) and there will definitely be no more issues.

Blm (and sch) will not be invited for nuking except for the few fights that require it. The only reason blm is even invited now is for procs and the rare occasion when you need magic damage.

Embrava is pretty much the sole reason sch is invited (the only other being alacrity stun spam which also happens under TR).

[Daniel_Hatcher]

WHM is pretty mp efficient even without temps. +2 Pants, up to 7 tic refresh from gear, /rdm (refresh / convert) or /sch (LA / sublimation / cmp), can keep up whm up just fine. If the event ever becomes that taxing on mp somehow for whm it will probably require a brd anyway due to difficulty. Just have the brd in the pt use ballad (easy 9 tic refresh with just ballad+ harp and pants) and there will definitely be no more issues.

Blm (and sch) will not be invited for nuking except for the few fights that require it. The only reason blm is even invited now is for procs and the rare occasion when you need magic damage.

Embrava is pretty much the sole reason sch is invited (the only other being alacrity stun spam which also happens under TR).

That's my point though, People will always take what can cope, as long as it can do it, you only have to look at the past with RDM.

1 SCH is better to have than 1 WHM and 1 BRD. So people will just replace the WHM should MP become a problem again, which I see becoming the problem again.

[Sasaraixx]

Saboteur and Absorb-TP is proof they do this.

SCH (and to a lesser extent RDM) will be useful in upcoming content due to them moving from Triggers and TEMP items. So MP will become an issue again.

Say what you will about WHM, but it's use is mainly due to how easy MP is to get, remove that and WHM will struggle again. SCH's Regen, Embrava (even gimped) and Cure IV for 1200+ HP will look MUCH more appealing then while WHM will look less appealing.

WHM got very little from 99+ and depending on how they go, I wouldn't count on WHM or even BLM being as untouchable as they are now. 1 SCH is better than 1 WHM and 1 BRD or RDM for Refresh.

Where are my Saboteur merits?

Where is this crystal ball of yours? What content are you thinking of that is so MP taxing a WHM will not be able to keep up? My WHM has not had MP issues in years, even without temporary items.

WHM got very little 99+ because it didn't need much. And I give a huge NO WAY to your last point. I certainly did not say you invite the BRD for Refresh. You are inviting that BRD for songs for the melee. The Ballads are just a bonus. The only time you are replacing the WHM is for Embrava.

[Sasaraixx]

That's my point though, People will always take what can cope, as long as it can do it, you only have to look at the past with RDM.

1 SCH is better to have than 1 WHM and 1 BRD. So people will just replace the WHM should MP become a problem again, which I see becoming the problem again.

You're missing the point. The BRD is going to be there anyway. You're not replacing the WHM AND the BRD with a SCH. So, with a BRD in party already, the Ballads are going to give the WHM plenty of MP, if they even struggling in the first place.

[Ezikiel]

where are u tardos seeing that embrava is getting nerfed?

[Nawesemo]

The developers said something to the effect, when they acknowledged our vicious attack upon the implimentation of the new new 2hrs, it was quoted somewhere in this thread.

My bad, in the 2hr thread.

Originally Posted by Okipuit However, we believe that we will have no choice but add the lowering of effects of Perfect Defense and Embrava to our scope of adjustments. In 2hr thread

[Ezikiel]

i will punch random people in the face if they nerf embrava

[Mirage]

Sure. You could start with those who made embrava required to clear certain events in the first place.

[Sotek]

As a result we would like to make it so summoner and scholar can widen their range of play and usefulness via other elements. We understand that these adjustments might be somewhat of an inconvenience, but we appreciate your understanding.

I fucking love this new guy, and I was this close to finally quiting, god damn it.

[Ezikiel]

how the hell is nerfing sch 2 hour making them MORE useful?

[Nawesemo]

how the hell is nerfing sch 2 hour making them MORE useful?

$?@*&'in balance grasshopper! Balance.... Lol

[Sotek]

You're reading it wrong, they're nerfing Embrava and improving the actual aspects of the job. Rather than being wanted for a single spell, SCH has the chance to be wanted for what the actual job is. Rather then the developers sidelining any work on SCH because we have Embrava, they're actually going to work on SCH.

[Ezikiel]

You're reading it wrong, they're nerfing Embrava and improving the actual aspects of the job. Rather than being wanted for a single spell, SCH has the chance to be wanted for what the actual job is. Rather then the developers sidelining any work on SCH because we have Embrava, they're actually going to work on SCH.

i dont think i am you dont have to take something way to improve other crappy parts. i for one have no issue with the way scholar is except enlightenment, that ja should let you access any spells without any other stratagems being used

[Sotek]

If they don't nerf Embrava, they can easily justify never touching SCH again. We have Embrava, we're automatically invited to everything, giving the job anything else would just be overpowered.

Their logic for nerfing Embrava and Perfect Defense is solid, such an adjustment is long overdue, 2Hrs like this are just awful for game balance. Like it or not they're nerfing them, the good news is that they're going to focus on giving the jobs something in compensation. You can disagree with their, and my logic over the need to nerf Embrava, but they're hardly going to make the job less useful when they're going to be focusing their attention on it.

Also, SCH is fine except for Enlightenment? What about Modus Veritas, Libra and several of the Stratagems being down right worthless? I'll admit though, the job is pretty much fine, it works as what it was designed as, a support job. The issue is endgame content is absolute trash, something they also intent to adjust.

[Ezikiel]

ah i get it now nerf something useful to pay more attetion to the job makes perfect sense now

[Nawesemo]

The idea of Sch is flawed for this game, if you want a Whm, you take a whm, if you want a blm you take a blm (or a sch)..... The idea that a job would be chosen over their dedicated couterparts to fill in is goofy, ..... Along with 1/2 the other jobs, the schs who main the job know their strengths and weaknesses, but they make it work, Sch's embrava spotted them into spots , the adjustments to Whm (cure skin, massive addition to cure potency gear), Blm- better efficiency, aspir 2, aja's /rdm /Sch killed a lot of the reasons a sch could function better than either at their respective arts..... Sch shouldn't have bulldogged Whm out of whms job, nor blms, but they did, and now the schs want to cry injustice...... Least that's my take, it is what it is, blms been living that for a while, put the big boy pants on and suck it up.... But yeah, s.e giving new toys to compensate for something that maybe was a bit rediculous to begin with..... Meh, well see it when we see it,..... But sch is just as useful as ever imo. Just not better at things than the masters of the respective arts.

[Ezikiel]

give sch the spell haste make it accessionable
allow me to merit more stratagem charges
make embrava and kaustra acessable when sch is sub
give sch debuffs like other mage jobs, silence blind slow.
rdm started with addle then they gave it to whm so may as well make this mage job a clone of the others

[Ezikiel]

The idea of Sch is flawed for this game, if you want a Whm, you take a whm, if you want a blm you take a blm (or a sch)..... The idea that a job would be chosen over their dedicated couterparts to fill in is goofy, ..... Along with 1/2 the other jobs, the schs who main the job know their strengths and weaknesses, but they make it work, Sch's embrava spotted them into spots , the adjustments to Whm (cure skin, massive addition to cure potency gear), Blm- better efficiency, aspir 2, aja's /rdm /Sch killed a lot of the reasons a sch could function better than either at their respective arts..... Sch shouldn't have bulldogged Whm out of whms job, nor blms, but they did, and now the schs want to cry injustice...... Least that's my take, it is what it is, blms been living that for a while, put the big boy pants on and suck it up.... But yeah, s.e giving new toys to compensate for something that maybe was a bit rediculous to begin with..... Meh, well see it when we see it,..... But sch is just as useful as ever imo. Just not better at things than the masters of the respective arts.

i disagree i play whm blm and sch and sometimes the retired rdm which is where u r trying to send sch.
as far as healing goes none compare to whm cure 6 i can nearly 1800 to 2k hp back at most sch can do 1300with cure4

blm nuking has that AoE factor which i have been using to make nuke staves sch is good at single targets

the ONLY way sch can keep up the healing a whm can do is having embrava on which at max lasts 12 minutes and does not gurantee you will live because mobs still one shot you and ur 2 hour is wasted.

if sch gets cure 5, and is able to manifestation their nukes then you can cry

[Nawesemo]

i disagree i play whm blm and sch and sometimes the retired rdm which is where u r trying to send sch.
as far as healing goes none compare to whm cure 6 i can nearly 1800 to 2k hp back at most sch can do 1300with cure4

blm nuking has that AoE factor which i have been using to make nuke staves sch is good at single targets

the ONLY way sch can keep up the healing a whm can do is having embrava on which at max lasts 12 minutes and does not gurantee you will live because mobs still one shot you and ur 2 hour is wasted.

if sch gets cure 5, and is able to manifestation their nukes then you can cry

lol who's crying here, I'm just pointing out that prior to the cap increases Sch was the defacto best healer in the game, shouldn't have been that way, but was, now the two that were proud of being able to do better (rdm/Sch), what Whm was ment to do the best, can't any more, im going to say about time.... Now the schs can start being schs and not fill in whms slots, whms get stuff to do, and the sch (and rdms) start doing their own thing, but their "idea" of best of both worlds can't exist, when there are the genuine articles, Whm, and blm.... Embrava... and a rediculous short spell delay (rdms) not to mention the dd /skill chain abilities most schs,fail to reaLise they have are pretty boss themselves. sch is gonna be fine, yall will always have klimaform.....

[Ezikiel]

just as i thought Nawesemeo u r praying for a nerf cause u r a scholar hater. klimaform dont amount to much but i got the sarcasm.

[Nawesemo]

Naaaaaa, I like the job, I'm not a fan of stratgiam charges, or the recast of them, but like my shells schs just fine, they throw out some nasty nukes, and make convenient skill chains from time to time, but to say the job is lol losing usefulness is just crazy talk, but the Blm inside can't help but giggle at the big bad schs Q.Qing here, given all the hub bub about being all that for so long, and just now realizing, they're just like the rest of US mages, big fat nobodies,...... lol sort of. my blm is the shizznit, my sch drops bigger bombs still, i dont see useless.....yet, but being put in your place never was any fun for anyone who's had their leash yanked.... Again, it is what it is, far from useless, just not the,cream of the crop no more, ....a level playing field too much to have to compensate for?

[Calatilla]

Ppl have BRD mule, WHM mule, COR mule, SMN mule, RDM mule and TH mule all the time or even WAR NIN mule in abby all the time, so that's not really SCH issue.

Love how when talking about thf its just TH, you named 9 jobs in that list, but instead of thf you just say TH. THF has been a job trait for way too long, fuck sch fix thf.

[saevel]

Wait wait ... this makes no sense.

SCH's scream and cry to be useful for "something other then Embrava". SE's says their going to change all 2hrs to 30min and in doing so reduce the effectiveness of Embrava (nerf), then adjust SCH to be more useful for "something other then Embrava". The EXACT SAME SCH's then scream and cry about that...

Seriously ... it's like you people expected to have the most powerful 2hr in the game on a 30min timer AND have the best healing / nuking / enfeebling / buffing abilities in the game. Seriously.... a wee bit unrealistic don't you think.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Wait wait ... this makes no sense.

SCH's scream and cry to be useful for "something other then Embrava". SE's says their going to change all 2hrs to 30min and in doing so reduce the effectiveness of Embrava (nerf), then adjust SCH to be more useful for "something other then Embrava". The EXACT SAME SCH's then scream and cry about that...

Seriously ... it's like you people expected to have the most powerful 2hr in the game on a 30min timer AND have the best healing / nuking / enfeebling / buffing abilities in the game. Seriously.... a wee bit unrealistic don't you think.

Indeed, they basically confirmed they were going to make SCH and SMN more useful... It's the first time they've actually confirmed working on current jobs usually its... "Well we could, but due to balance we wont."

[Calatilla]

Saying they will and actually doing so are 2 completely different worlds where SE is concerned. They could just nerf SCH and SMN 2hrs and leave it at that. If FFXI wasn't just one big zergfest we wouldn't have to rely so heavily on these 2hrs.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Saying they will and actually doing so are 2 completely different worlds where SE is concerned. They could just nerf SCH and SMN 2hrs and leave it at that. If FFXI wasn't just one big zergfest we wouldn't have to rely so heavily on these 2hrs.

It's more indication than. "We'll be making Embrava and PD weaker due to the 2-hour update ... END"

SMN is already guaranteed to be getting two new avatars, so we already know SMN is being worked on, As such the likelihood is SCH is too.

Let's not confuse this with when Tanaka worked on FFXI, in a small amount of time the new guy has already proved to be remotely interested in listening to player feedback in the 2-hour update itself.

[Calatilla]

I love my SCH as I do my SMN so I'm hoping these changes are worthwhile, I hate being invited to events based on my enhancing skill or whether or not I have Alexander.

[Sotek]

Wait wait ... this makes no sense.

SCH's scream and cry to be useful for "something other then Embrava". SE's says their going to change all 2hrs to 30min and in doing so reduce the effectiveness of Embrava (nerf), then adjust SCH to be more useful for "something other then Embrava". The EXACT SAME SCH's then scream and cry about that...

Seriously ... it's like you people expected to have the most powerful 2hr in the game on a 30min timer AND have the best healing / nuking / enfeebling / buffing abilities in the game. Seriously.... a wee bit unrealistic don't you think.

The only person who seems to have any trouble with it is Ezikiel (who hadn't even posted in this thread before?), I'm actually quite happy with these changes and I'm fairly certain I was the one screaming and crying the most over how awful Embrava was, I can see how you'd miss that after I said I loved these coming adjustments though. Practically nobody in this thread is upset about the Embrava nerf, almost everyone welcomes it, the only issue is SE doesn't have a terribly good history of making up for short comings with a job. How is that enfeebling magic adjustment working out again?

[Eric]

Ever since the embrava adjustments have been announced, this thread has become nothing but a bunch of BLMs and RDMs whining.

Like Sotek, I am welcoming the embrava nerf, but only as long as SE actually makes the job useful in other ways. Whether or not that happens remains to be seen, but it's kind of sad to see how the RDM and BLM community have turned to crab mentality in light of events like Neo-Nyzul, where they aren't wanted.

[Nawesemo]

In...a.....thread about Sch's useless-ness you expected unanimous support from the community? Lol.

[Siiri]

Ever since the embrava adjustments have been announced, this thread has become nothing but a bunch of BLMs and RDMs whining.

Like Sotek, I am welcoming the embrava nerf, but only as long as SE actually makes the job useful in other ways. Whether or not that happens remains to be seen, but it's kind of sad to see how the RDM and BLM community have turned to crab mentality in light of events like Neo-Nyzul, where they aren't wanted.

Generalizations and hyperbole are not helpful either. I have never heard of a blm whining about neo -nyzul. Blms were not welcome in original nyzul, I am sure no one was expecting to be wanted in neo nyzul. That has to do with black magic in general being marginalized which will be my 2nd topic, my first is the use of scholar in nyzul. I do have a neo nyzul static consisting of 2 sch, 2 drks a war and a blue. Just putting that out there to stem the "you mad" and "you jelly" comments.

Original nyzul was to me and my friends, one of the best events in endgame. It was low man, could do with friends, was a good event to utilize skype/vent on, was pretty inclusive, and had good rewards. Neo-nyzul, is gimmicky and exclusive. By gimmicky I am referring to relying on 1/3 of the party being scholars, casting their 2 hours, and then having to reset the 2 hour between runs. Does anyone really think that is good game design? IF the event is no longer won by using embrava, SE can evaluate it and make adjustments as needed. (Hopefully) Scholar will still be the best healer, as it excels in low man content, and has the ability to nuke unlike white mage. The main reason scholar lacked at 75 nyzul was lack of haste, which is rectified at 99.

As for black mage's envy of scholars, it is actually irrelevant at this point. Elemental magic as a whole is useless. When people return to the game the first thing I tell them is black mage is now obsolete. Level it to get into abyssea and vw pickups for procs, but do not expect to enjoy it like pre ToAU days. SE made the decision to punish black mages for the pre ToAU strategies of "throw more black mages at it." That resulted in the melee/zerg mentality that exists to this day. So really black mage vs. scholar dark arts is pointless, because they are both equally useless for most content. Sch alacrity stun has replaced blm stun order, but a stun order was a silly reason for a job anyway.

As for rdm. vs. scholar, anyway who disputes rdm is a totally dead job hasn't done any real events. Sch beats rdm in everything, except melee, and rdm melee has always been a joke. There is probably some resentment from career red mages there, because scholars has gotten a lot of improvements that some think should have went to red mage. I always remember reading someone's thoughts that scholar never should have existed, dark arts should have gone to blm, light arts to whm, and storm spells and helixes to red mage. That is water under the bridge now, but SE used a lot of great ideas on scholars other jobs would have liked.

In closing, a lot of mages do not see scholar in that bad shape. Outside of abyssea white mage has come down to earth. It is still the best, and it should be, but I organize a lot of ls events and I consider scholars competent healers capable of sustaining a party. Most scholars you get in pickups though just want to play nuker, I don't see a lot of scholars that love healing the way hard core white mages do. Maybe I know the wrong scholars.

My personal ranking of mages is White Mage and Scholar most useful, black mage great for proc'ing and occasional melee resistant bosses, red mage dead. So like a lot of people I do not see a great need to buff scholar, although I do agree MV should be fixed, and the tp spell should grant 3 tp. Also Libra is pretty pointless.

[Ordoric]

sch is not ment to be a main healer or a main nuke they have the ability to use both and its also based on a prinsible <spell nazi attack> nuke a mob enhance party heal at the end

[Raksha]

The only person who seems to have any trouble with it is Ezikiel (who hadn't even posted in this thread before?), I'm actually quite happy with these changes and I'm fairly certain I was the one screaming and crying the most over how awful Embrava was, I can see how you'd miss that after I said I loved these coming adjustments though. Practically nobody in this thread is upset about the Embrava nerf, almost everyone welcomes it, the only issue is SE doesn't have a terribly good history of making up for short comings with a job. How is that enfeebling magic adjustment working out again?


Co-signed.

[saevel]

As for rdm. vs. scholar, anyway who disputes rdm is a totally dead job hasn't done any real events. Sch beats rdm in everything, except melee, and rdm melee has always been a joke. There is probably some resentment from career red mages there, because scholars has gotten a lot of improvements that some think should have went to red mage. I always remember reading someone's thoughts that scholar never should have existed, dark arts should have gone to blm, light arts to whm, and storm spells and helixes to red mage. That is water under the bridge now, but SE used a lot of great ideas on scholars other jobs would have liked.


That was me. SCH shouldn't of been created as it's concept is a direct copy of RDM's just with more utility tossed in. It really boxed in SE onto what they could do to RDM / BLM / WHM when the level cap was raised over 80. WHM was ok due to the power of Cure V and Curaga + Emp feet. RDM and BLM on the other hand got tossed into near oblivion with the important of procing being BLM's only saving grace. RDM on the other hand was completely thrown away as it provides nothing that SCH couldn't do better, even RDM's job defining CSS has been taken over by a pair of SCH/BLMs. Breaking SCH's set of JA's and spells between those three jobs would of lead to a significant increase in their utility, instead we're left with SE trying to balance the four of them while not letting them be copy's of each other.

But that's all in the past and we've got to play with the cards we're dealt. From here on out SE has to be really careful what it does with SCH, buff it too much and it instantly replaces all three, buff it to little and the players scream for being "only wanted for embrava".

[Afania]

Original nyzul was to me and my friends, one of the best events in endgame. It was low man, could do with friends, was a good event to utilize skype/vent on, was pretty inclusive, and had good rewards. Neo-nyzul, is gimmicky and exclusive. By gimmicky I am referring to relying on 1/3 of the party being scholars, casting their 2 hours, and then having to reset the 2 hour between runs. Does anyone really think that is good game design?

Old Nyzul at 75 "requires" RDM SAM etc too.

New nyzul "requires" SCH is not because it's "bad" design, it's just because SCH is the most optimal mage job for new nyzul, like how RDM was most optimal mage for old Nyzul. If the event is more difficult, then it will require more optimal setup. If it's easier, than you have more freedom to use sub optimal job/setup and get it done.

I agree current 2hr recast is too long though, if the point of having 2hr JA is to have 1 JA to use per event, then it should be 30 min recast instead of 2hr then waste more time to reset.

[Siiri]

Old Nyzul at 75 "requires" RDM SAM etc too.

New nyzul "requires" SCH is not because it's "bad" design, it's just because SCH is the most optimal mage job for new nyzul, like how RDM was most optimal mage for old Nyzul. If the event is more difficult, then it will require more optimal setup. If it's easier, than you have more freedom to use sub optimal job/setup and get it done.

.

That is an incorrect statement. My original Nyzul static, who I also got Captain Rank with, was whm, brd, drk, mnk, thf and lolpld. (He refused to level any other job) Not ideal at all, but we were very good players who hung out, knew each other, had good to great gear, and were on skype. I honestly believe we never lost after the first few runs. I don't remember any guides that said you HAD to have rdm or sam. Of course the herp derp shouts for pickups may have been sam/rdm only, but pickups need the idiot proof jobs as a rule, because no one wanted to chance a drk or thf at 75 in a pickup when they could have an ah geared, hagun sam 2 houring. I also took a bunch of social ls members into nyzul for gear, climbs or farming, and never required sam or rdm to win. You are correct in the 2nd part, old nyzul was very flexible because it was pretty easy. I actually love the excitement and pace of neo nyzul, just feel the reliance on scholar 2 hours is a bit ridiculous. I do not think that is a particular radical statement, many agree with me.

I have been playing 7 years, and have participated in every end game activity. I also organize a lot of them. I never saw an event that was so small (6) and required so many of 1 job to win. Even in the big alliance events where 2 hours were needed, it was more of a joint venture. Soul Voice, chain spell, manafont, kclub/mkris dark, mighty strikes war, Sams 2 houring. It wasn't oh as long as we got SMNs and Scholars to rotate its all good.

[Ezikiel]

if they nerf embrava i saw someone say change the tp spell adloquium that would be nice i still want shcolar to have the spell haste without rdm or whm sub

[Merton9999]

Although I've been on the record since the implementation that I love Embrava, I wouldn't mind a nerf as long as other adjustments still allow me to play SCH as much as I do now. My problem is the 76-99 stretch pre-Embrava was pure awful as an attempt to give SCHs something unique and useful. With that history, I'm not optimistic about the future SCH popularity. Maybe the new producer will do it right, who knows.

My fear is that there's going to be a lot of praise for the science of game design and balance that takes the Embrava requirement out of the picture, but the only important reality for me will that I end up never using SCH again. I'd just cancel until GEO rather than slum it on BLM or WHM every night again.

[Dantedmc]

Although I've been on the record since the implementation that I love Embrava, I wouldn't mind a nerf as long as other adjustments still allow me to play SCH as much as I do now. My problem is the 76-99 stretch pre-Embrava was pure awful as an attempt to give SCHs something unique and useful. With that history, I'm not optimistic about the future SCH popularity. Maybe the new producer will do it right, who knows.

My fear is that there's going to be a lot of praise for the science of game design and balance that takes the Embrava requirement out of the picture, but the only important reality for me will that I end up never using SCH again. I'd just cancel until GEO rather than slum it on BLM or WHM every night again.

This is my concern. All the schs who are talking about nerf embrava, must have forgotten what it was like during the abyssea days when sch was straight up useless. At 75 we didn't even have haste. Added to the fact that SE gives us things like libra, enmity spells that are "too powerful" to stack with our -enm strats, and 1 tic regain that can't even stack with monarchs, I'm extremely skeptical of sch being invited if they don't get something unique and useful. I would rather be only invited because of Tabula Rasa, than never invited to play sch at all.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

if they nerf embrava i saw someone say change the tp spell adloquium that would be nice i still want shcolar to have the spell haste without rdm or whm sub

Why would they nerf a spell to power-up another spell!?

[Ezikiel]

Why would they nerf a spell to power-up another spell!?
.......................balance?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

.......................balance?

It wouldn't be balance to remove it from a 1 hour~30 minute JA spell and put it on a "at all times" spell, or at least not SE balance.

[Siiri]

It wouldn't be balance to remove it from a 1 hour~30 minute JA spell and put it on a "at all times" spell, or at least not SE balance.

Actually the spell adloquium is really bad. It's 1 tp regain, and doesn't stack. Its worthless. I have corsair and I usually only use tp roll during breaks , pops etc, but I am not going to let anything less than 3 tp/tick ride. With the navarch frac +2 it gives an additional 1 tp to every roll as well. I think adloquium should be increased and would not hurt balance.

[saevel]

if they nerf embrava i saw someone say change the tp spell adloquium that would be nice i still want shcolar to have the spell haste without rdm or whm sub

Its current fixed potency of 1tp/tick is the issue. I would like to see them have it scale with enhancing magic to a cap of ~5 or so (depending on how powerful Embrava ends up being).

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Actually the spell adloquium is really bad. It's 1 tp regain, and doesn't stack. Its worthless. I have corsair and I usually only use tp roll during breaks , pops etc, but I am not going to let anything less than 3 tp/tick ride. With the navarch frac +2 it gives an additional 1 tp to every roll as well. I think adloquium should be increased and would not hurt balance.

my point isn't that the spell isn't weak, it's simply that nerfing a spell that is on 1 hour~30 minutes to add it to a spell available at all time wouldn't make sense when used with the argument "Balance".

[Thorbean]

Original poster has no ability to be useful on the most useful job in the game (IMO)... Please fix this.

[Delvish]

Original poster has no ability to be useful on the most useful job in the game (IMO)... Please fix this.
Please read the entire thread, or let me summarize by 1 overkill 2hr does not equal useful.

[Thorbean]

Wait... So it's not useful to be able to regen V, phalanx and barspell the entire party, boost their stats and fill a healer role. Then switch and throw out 5-6 powerfull nukes + helix before switching back to light arts for more 700ish hp cures (1350-1400 if needed) +status removal spells. All that at 10% less MP cost than others, while maintaining high MP via sublimation and conserve MP.

I'm not talking about their 2 hour, but if you want to add that into the mix then by all means do so. Outside of abby, embrava is only 15 mins of 2 hours. a skilled SCH gets alot done in those 105 mins.

Inside abby it gets even better, with the ability to tank zone bosses etc. if your tank gets hit with a 1 hit KO move. On numerous occasions I held glavoid for the entire duration of my team mates weakness if a high disgorge got through. Just standing still rotating stoneskin, blink and the occasional re-regen V. Not that it matters in abby as a 4 year old could succeed in there.

I play mostly just in a duo with a THF. Embrava isn't such a massive bonus when you dont have a full party of melee's to make use of it. Sure it's awesome, but if that's all the scholars you play with are doing, then you are playing with bad scholars.

If you really think SCH is useless outside of embrava then you either don't play the job, are terrible at it or the ones you are playing with are terrible.
/thread.

[Dantedmc]

Wait... So it's not useful to be able to regen V, phalanx and barspell the entire party, boost their stats and fill a healer role. Then switch and throw out 5-6 powerfull nukes + helix before switching back to light arts for more 700ish hp cures (1350-1400 if needed) +status removal spells. All that at 10% less MP cost than others, while maintaining high MP via sublimation and conserve MP.

I don't know what kind of parties you're in, but if someone decided to only cast regen V / phalanx on me and then started nuking. I'd be pretty upset. Sch usually sticks to one role at a time. Constantly switching just depletes stratagems and isn't that helpful. Now I'm not saying sch can't switch roles in emergencies, but you should never plan to be constantly switching. The 10% reduction isn't going to make sch stand out either because many whms and blms also sub sch, and mp is hardly a issue in today's ffxi.


I'm not talking about their 2 hour, but if you want to add that into the mix then by all means do so. Outside of abby, embrava is only 15 mins of 2 hours. a skilled SCH gets alot done in those 105 mins.

Inside abby it gets even better, with the ability to tank zone bosses etc. if your tank gets hit with a 1 hit KO move. On numerous occasions I held glavoid for the entire duration of my team mates weakness if a high disgorge got through. Just standing still rotating stoneskin, blink and the occasional re-regen V. Not that it matters in abby as a 4 year old could succeed in there.

Whm can do this better by spamming extremely powerful cures with 350+ instant stoneskins.


I play mostly just in a duo with a THF. Embrava isn't such a massive bonus when you dont have a full party of melee's to make use of it. Sure it's awesome, but if that's all the scholars you play with are doing, then you are playing with bad scholars.

Embrava is still extremely useful lowman, fulltime embrava in abyssea speeds up practically everything, and even outside abyssea in events like dynamis when working on trials.


If you really think SCH is useless outside of embrava then you either don't play the job, are terrible at it or the ones you are playing with are terrible.
/thread.

Sch's main role is embrava with other emphasis being on stun spam. This is a fact, not an opinion.

[Delvish]

I apologize, I figured you were among the hordes of others who think it is all about Embrava. In this case however, you recognize everything that SCH is good at, however, you also mentioned everything (sans Regen) that a WHM or a BLM can also do even better.

I completely agree that SCH is not useless by any means and in that respect the OP is wrong. However, we are only good at what other jobs already have and excell at. Our unique abilities to include Modus Veritas, Libra, merited stratagems and our MP stratagems, Animus Augeo/Minuo, Klimaform (on anyone without empy +2 boots), and Adloquium are all hardly usefull.

[Thorbean]

I don't know what kind of parties you're in, but if someone decided to only cast regen V / phalanx on me and then started nuking. I'd be pretty upset. Sch usually sticks to one role at a time. Constantly switching just depletes stratagems and isn't that helpful. Now I'm not saying sch can't switch roles in emergencies, but you should never plan to be constantly switching. The 10% reduction isn't going to make sch stand out either because many whms and blms also sub sch, and mp is hardly a issue in today's ffxi.

I don't know what kind of parties you are in but if you need more than Regen V + -45 damage/hit phalanx and maybe a bar spell then your SCH team mate will probs be pretty upset too O.o. Let's be honest, it takes around 60 seconds to helix + throw out a few nukes while weather swapping (at the absolute most). If you can't last that long with Regen V then you should probs rethink your strategy and bring more appropriate gear for the situation? You can always halt your attack and switch back to LA if you really need to, but that shouldn't happen often. Remember your party should be aware of what you are doing, don't just do it without letting them know.


Whm can do this better by spamming extremely powerful cures with 350+ instant stoneskins.

Nobody is disputing that WHM is an amazing healer, thats it's job after all. Those cures are rarely needed if you are fully buffed and geared right. In a small party that is, If you have 10 people eating AoE then you are doing it wrong. and a WHM would be hard pressed to keep up with that without 69hp/tic regen easing the load.

Ps. 45 reduction phalanx on the party absorbs more damage than 350 cureskins over the duration of a fight.


Embrava is still extremely useful lowman, fulltime embrava in abyssea speeds up practically everything, and even outside abyssea in events like dynamis when working on trials.

Again, I'm not disputing that, I'm leaving it out of the discussion because SCH is so much more than just that 1 spell. If thats all you get from your SCH's then they are also doing it wrong.


Sch's main role is embrava with other emphasis being on stun spam. This is a fact, not an opinion.

It is opinion because:
A: I have never used stun as sch because /RDM has so much more to give.
B: Lots of jobs have access to their own stun and should be able to use it well.
C: Standing around doing nothing, hovering over a stun macro is a waste of a scholars time and ability's.
D: If you need to stun so often that SCH is required for strats then you are feeding way to much TP and wasting the SCH's strats.

Are there really this many bad scholars around that all anyone thinks of them is an embrava bi**h?
The job is perfect for those of us who enjoy playing in a pair or trio, you can fill the roll of BLM and WHM for your team mate and not have to depend on other people and or timezones.

There are problems with the job i admit (such as MV and libra) but those problem abilitys could be completely removed from the game and SCH could still perform just as well. they certainly don't make the job useless. Flexibility is SCH's greatest strength, that's something only a hand full of jobs can boast.

@Delvish I'd still main SCH even if embrava was removed :). I'm surprised Kaustra isn't talked about as much as embrava. when it comes to soloing NM's, a kaustra, helix, bio II and pois II + kite is an effective win with almost 0 TP feed.

I find Klimaform quite nice for landing enfeebles the target is resistant too (though that has been somewhat reduced with the new enfeeb resist system ><). I wouldn't be against a merit category for it though.

I posted a couple of suggestions for MV and libra (Mainly making MV simply add the damage again rather than multiplying, with a 100% landing rate reinstated). I agree though that these abilitys are frustrating at best.

Adloquium I rarely cast, but it can increase the frequency of WS occassionaly (IE. when your melee ends up at 99 TP, with Adl. up, they can get a WS off and the next attack round is building TP again).
I wouldn't put it in the useless camp, but 1-2 gear pieces that increase TP by 1 per tick would make this a very nice spell indeed.
My LS generally ask for me to come as SCH if they are doing anything hard, alot more than they ask for a WHM or BLM at least. I'm not exactly trigger happy when it comes to casting embrava either, I usually save it for when somethin goes wrong or I need the extra HP/tick when soloing stuff.
My machine struggles in huge alliances though so any party I'm in is usually no more than 6 bodies. AoE 850 cures with Aurorastorm (I only have 19% cure potency atm :() + regen is more than enough to get the job done.

I'm not saying it's better than all other mage jobs, I'm saying that it can fill either roll (or both at a push) with just as much success for the party. It is far far from useless.

Edit: Woah! for the love of god TL;DR.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I don't know what kind of parties you are in but if you need more than Regen V + -45 damage/hit phalanx and maybe a bar spell then your SCH team mate will probs be pretty upset too O.o. Let's be honest, it takes around 60 seconds to helix + throw out a few nukes while weather swapping (at the absolute most). If you can't last that long with Regen V then you should probs rethink your strategy and bring more appropriate gear for the situation? You can always halt your attack and switch back to LA if you really need to, but that shouldn't happen often. Remember your party should be aware of what you are doing, don't just do it without letting them know.



Nobody is disputing that WHM is an amazing healer, thats it's job after all. Those cures are rarely needed if you are fully buffed and geared right. In a small party that is, If you have 10 people eating AoE then you are doing it wrong. and a WHM would be hard pressed to keep up with that without 69hp/tic regen easing the load.

Ps. 45 reduction phalanx on the party absorbs more damage than 350 cureskins over the duration of a fight.



Again, I'm not disputing that, I'm leaving it out of the discussion because SCH is so much more than just that 1 spell. If thats all you get from your SCH's then they are also doing it wrong.



It is opinion because:
A: I have never used stun as sch because /RDM has so much more to give.
B: Lots of jobs have access to their own stun and should be able to use it well.
C: Standing around doing nothing, hovering over a stun macro is a waste of a scholars time and ability's.
D: If you need to stun so often that SCH is required for strats then you are feeding way to much TP and wasting the SCH's strats.

Are there really this many bad scholars around that all anyone thinks of them is an embrava bi**h?
The job is perfect for those of us who enjoy playing in a pair or trio, you can fill the roll of BLM and WHM for your team mate and not have to depend on other people and or timezones.

There are problems with the job i admit (such as MV and libra) but those problem abilitys could be completely removed from the game and SCH could still perform just as well. they certainly don't make the job useless. Flexibility is SCH's greatest strength, that's something only a hand full of jobs can boast.

@Delvish I'd still main SCH even if embrava was removed :). I'm surprised Kaustra isn't talked about as much as embrava. when it comes to soloing NM's, a kaustra, helix, bio II and pois II + kite is an effective win with almost 0 TP feed.

I find Klimaform quite nice for landing enfeebles the target is resistant too (though that has been somewhat reduced with the new enfeeb resist system ><). I wouldn't be against a merit category for it though.

I posted a couple of suggestions for MV and libra (Mainly making MV simply add the damage again rather than multiplying, with a 100% landing rate reinstated). I agree though that these abilitys are frustrating at best.

Adloquium I rarely cast, but it can increase the frequency of WS occassionaly (IE. when your melee ends up at 99 TP, with Adl. up, they can get a WS off and the next attack round is building TP again).
I wouldn't put it in the useless camp, but 1-2 gear pieces that increase TP by 1 per tick would make this a very nice spell indeed.
My LS generally ask for me to come as SCH if they are doing anything hard, alot more than they ask for a WHM or BLM at least. I'm not exactly trigger happy when it comes to casting embrava either, I usually save it for when somethin goes wrong or I need the extra HP/tick when soloing stuff.
My machine struggles in huge alliances though so any party I'm in is usually no more than 6 bodies. AoE 850 cures with Aurorastorm (I only have 19% cure potency atm :() + regen is more than enough to get the job done.

I'm not saying it's better than all other mage jobs, I'm saying that it can fill either roll (or both at a push) with just as much success for the party. It is far far from useless.

Edit: Woah! for the love of god TL;DR.

How are you getting 45 when I think the cap is 35 at 500 skill.

[Thorbean]

35 yeh my bad, I really should read over that i write before I post :D.
While we on the subject of phalanx my math has always said 34. Is phalanx calc not floored?

[Raksha]

I don't know what kind of parties you are in but if you need more than Regen V + -45 damage/hit phalanx and maybe a bar spell then your SCH team mate will probs be pretty upset too O.o. Let's be honest, it takes around 60 seconds to helix + throw out a few nukes while weather swapping (at the absolute most). If you can't last that long with Regen V then you should probs rethink your strategy and bring more appropriate gear for the situation? You can always halt your attack and switch back to LA if you really need to, but that shouldn't happen often. Remember your party should be aware of what you are doing, don't just do it without letting them know.



Nobody is disputing that WHM is an amazing healer, thats it's job after all. Those cures are rarely needed if you are fully buffed and geared right. In a small party that is, If you have 10 people eating AoE then you are doing it wrong. and a WHM would be hard pressed to keep up with that without 69hp/tic regen easing the load.

Ps. 45 reduction phalanx on the party absorbs more damage than 350 cureskins over the duration of a fight.



Again, I'm not disputing that, I'm leaving it out of the discussion because SCH is so much more than just that 1 spell. If thats all you get from your SCH's then they are also doing it wrong.



It is opinion because:
A: I have never used stun as sch because /RDM has so much more to give.
B: Lots of jobs have access to their own stun and should be able to use it well.
C: Standing around doing nothing, hovering over a stun macro is a waste of a scholars time and ability's.
D: If you need to stun so often that SCH is required for strats then you are feeding way to much TP and wasting the SCH's strats.

Are there really this many bad scholars around that all anyone thinks of them is an embrava bi**h?
The job is perfect for those of us who enjoy playing in a pair or trio, you can fill the roll of BLM and WHM for your team mate and not have to depend on other people and or timezones.

There are problems with the job i admit (such as MV and libra) but those problem abilitys could be completely removed from the game and SCH could still perform just as well. they certainly don't make the job useless. Flexibility is SCH's greatest strength, that's something only a hand full of jobs can boast.

@Delvish I'd still main SCH even if embrava was removed :). I'm surprised Kaustra isn't talked about as much as embrava. when it comes to soloing NM's, a kaustra, helix, bio II and pois II + kite is an effective win with almost 0 TP feed.

I find Klimaform quite nice for landing enfeebles the target is resistant too (though that has been somewhat reduced with the new enfeeb resist system ><). I wouldn't be against a merit category for it though.

I posted a couple of suggestions for MV and libra (Mainly making MV simply add the damage again rather than multiplying, with a 100% landing rate reinstated). I agree though that these abilitys are frustrating at best.

Adloquium I rarely cast, but it can increase the frequency of WS occassionaly (IE. when your melee ends up at 99 TP, with Adl. up, they can get a WS off and the next attack round is building TP again).
I wouldn't put it in the useless camp, but 1-2 gear pieces that increase TP by 1 per tick would make this a very nice spell indeed.
My LS generally ask for me to come as SCH if they are doing anything hard, alot more than they ask for a WHM or BLM at least. I'm not exactly trigger happy when it comes to casting embrava either, I usually save it for when somethin goes wrong or I need the extra HP/tick when soloing stuff.
My machine struggles in huge alliances though so any party I'm in is usually no more than 6 bodies. AoE 850 cures with Aurorastorm (I only have 19% cure potency atm :() + regen is more than enough to get the job done.

I'm not saying it's better than all other mage jobs, I'm saying that it can fill either roll (or both at a push) with just as much success for the party. It is far far from useless.

Edit: Woah! for the love of god TL;DR.


You should give legion a try.

[Thorbean]

All in good time, however, I hear its generally done in big alliances and I don't really enjoy that style of play. It's hard enough getting a competent group together for nyzul and I've only been playing for 9 months. Would you only have 1 Scholar main healing for something like that though? I would think perpetuating Aurorastorm onto the WHM's would be a nice bonus in itself for that kinda thing no?

Is a job classed as useless if it's not outstanding in every area or am I missing something?

[Raksha]

typically you embrava and stun

(yeah i don't like it either, but that's what this thread is about)

[Nawesemo]

Just putting it out there, that's better than anything the jobs that don't get to go for xyz reason get to do.

[Raksha]

Go complain on their forums then.

[Thorbean]

typically you embrava and stun

(yeah i don't like it either, but that's what this thread is about)

Sounds boring, I'll avoid it in that case or form my own party of people who know how to make the most of SCH. Theres hundreds of BLM/RDM out there who can stun.

[Nawesemo]

Go complain on their forums then.

Lol, who's doing the complaining? The original posts title uh.... Yeah.

Sch is far from useless. "."<<<<

[saevel]

Sounds boring, I'll avoid it in that case or form my own party of people who know how to make the most of SCH. Theres hundreds of BLM/RDM out there who can stun.

Yes but nothing is better then SCH for stun duty then SCH/BLM. With haste + embrava their capping recast, then they can use a stratagem to cut it's recast in half. You end up with a 5s recast on stun and one to two SCH/BLM's can lock down any NM. It's become a vital strategy on PW and Legion.

That being said, SCH is an epically amazing job. It's remembered for Embrava because of how stupidly powerful it is. Its a miniature 12m brew. Outside of that SCH has potent healing, buffing and nuking.

[Dantedmc]

I don't know what kind of parties you are in but if you need more than Regen V + -45 damage/hit phalanx and maybe a bar spell then your SCH team mate will probs be pretty upset too O.o. Let's be honest, it takes around 60 seconds to helix + throw out a few nukes while weather swapping (at the absolute most). If you can't last that long with Regen V then you should probs rethink your strategy and bring more appropriate gear for the situation? You can always halt your attack and switch back to LA if you really need to, but that shouldn't happen often. Remember your party should be aware of what you are doing, don't just do it without letting them know.



Nobody is disputing that WHM is an amazing healer, thats it's job after all. Those cures are rarely needed if you are fully buffed and geared right. In a small party that is, If you have 10 people eating AoE then you are doing it wrong. and a WHM would be hard pressed to keep up with that without 69hp/tic regen easing the load.

Ps. 45 reduction phalanx on the party absorbs more damage than 350 cureskins over the duration of a fight.



Again, I'm not disputing that, I'm leaving it out of the discussion because SCH is so much more than just that 1 spell. If thats all you get from your SCH's then they are also doing it wrong.



It is opinion because:
A: I have never used stun as sch because /RDM has so much more to give.
B: Lots of jobs have access to their own stun and should be able to use it well.
C: Standing around doing nothing, hovering over a stun macro is a waste of a scholars time and ability's.
D: If you need to stun so often that SCH is required for strats then you are feeding way to much TP and wasting the SCH's strats.

Are there really this many bad scholars around that all anyone thinks of them is an embrava bi**h?
The job is perfect for those of us who enjoy playing in a pair or trio, you can fill the roll of BLM and WHM for your team mate and not have to depend on other people and or timezones.

There are problems with the job i admit (such as MV and libra) but those problem abilitys could be completely removed from the game and SCH could still perform just as well. they certainly don't make the job useless. Flexibility is SCH's greatest strength, that's something only a hand full of jobs can boast.

@Delvish I'd still main SCH even if embrava was removed :). I'm surprised Kaustra isn't talked about as much as embrava. when it comes to soloing NM's, a kaustra, helix, bio II and pois II + kite is an effective win with almost 0 TP feed.

I find Klimaform quite nice for landing enfeebles the target is resistant too (though that has been somewhat reduced with the new enfeeb resist system ><). I wouldn't be against a merit category for it though.

I posted a couple of suggestions for MV and libra (Mainly making MV simply add the damage again rather than multiplying, with a 100% landing rate reinstated). I agree though that these abilitys are frustrating at best.

Adloquium I rarely cast, but it can increase the frequency of WS occassionaly (IE. when your melee ends up at 99 TP, with Adl. up, they can get a WS off and the next attack round is building TP again).
I wouldn't put it in the useless camp, but 1-2 gear pieces that increase TP by 1 per tick would make this a very nice spell indeed.
My LS generally ask for me to come as SCH if they are doing anything hard, alot more than they ask for a WHM or BLM at least. I'm not exactly trigger happy when it comes to casting embrava either, I usually save it for when somethin goes wrong or I need the extra HP/tick when soloing stuff.
My machine struggles in huge alliances though so any party I'm in is usually no more than 6 bodies. AoE 850 cures with Aurorastorm (I only have 19% cure potency atm :() + regen is more than enough to get the job done.

I'm not saying it's better than all other mage jobs, I'm saying that it can fill either roll (or both at a push) with just as much success for the party. It is far far from useless.

Edit: Woah! for the love of god TL;DR.

Funny, everyone else is the bad sch yet you know nothing about sch stunning. This shows you have no knowledge of Legion and Provenance at the very least. Not to mention 19% cure potency is pathetic. I really can't take you seriously now after this post.

[Thorbean]

Because I should instantly have the best gear? Grow up... Building gear sets solo takes time. Talk to me again when you start over from scratch (I'm a fairly new player and spent more than half that time playing MNK). I never said all SCH are bad, I said if all they are providing is embrava then they are bad.
I know nothing about SCH stunning because I've never seen the need arise for it. I'm sure that when the need arises I'll learn all about it, but there are only so many hours in the day to play a video game and I'm not blessed with the ability to stop time unfortunatelly. However, after hearing about it, it seems that its just another tool in scholars already fantastic arsenal. But hey SCH is useless right?

Ps. 19% gets the job done and gives me 850-890 cures with Aurorastorm. I don't do VW and most of my gil goes towards my GF's relic weapon so what exactly do you suggest? I'm only missing 2 pieces and I'm not using arka because it's a waste of time for SCH with Chatoyant + Aurorastorm in the game.
Also, you don't need perfect gear to perform well (well you apparently do but I don't).

Are you also saying SCH is useless? Do you just provide Embrava then do nothing too?

[Raksha]

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/007/508/watch-out-we-got-a-badass-over-here-meme.png

Math shows that chatoyant starts winning around ~42% (or was it 46%) cure potency. Obviously you use what you have, but there's a big difference between Abyssea and the rest of the game. No one is saying that SCH is as useless as RDM, but the things it supposedly does well like healing and nuking are irrelevant to current endgame (for the most part). Other than embrava and stun spam which any abyssea burned mule can do, SCH offers nothing. This is a problem with mages in general, and isnt specific to SCH. The things that make SCH unique though are underwhelming to say the least.

[Saefinn]

I think you make a fair point. I've been on hiatus so I am behind on some more recent end game stuff and I appreciate that SCH is useful in the sense that people want Embrava and that MV's recast time has been reduced and that gives people a reason to invite us, but I have found that what I like about the job is not necessarily useful, at least not anymore.

For me the top 3 things that should make a Scholar unique:
Weather
DoTs/HoTs
Stratagems

I think we're doing stratagems well, it's one thing I still love about playing this job because it allows you to shape your next spell in many aways, which I think adds more strategy to the job.

I think SE have made a step in the right direction for DoTs/HoTs but I don't think it's quite there yet, I mean Kaustra/Embrava are nice additions in that respect, but are only 2 hours. With the update to MV, using Helices isn't as frustrating and I think they're actually really useful spells to use in between other spells, so if you're nuking you're adding extra damage and if you're healing you're able to still do damage without using too much MP or generating too much hate. Their changes to regen are also a step in the right direction in that it can be a boost to our healing ability.

On the other hand, we've got the weather, which to be honest, I would like to see get a boost and to become a reason for people to bring a SCH along. Weather would make a nice boost to our own spells & stats but also other people. It has been a long time since anybody's cared about whether or not they've got a weather spell on them. Plus, I think having emphasis on adjusting the weather kind of adds to the idea that Scholar's are strategists - you adapt the weather based on the current situation.

It would be better in my eyes than treating a SCH like a BLM/WHM hybrid, at least, being a BLM/WHM hybrid wasn't what made me fall in love with the class.

[VraeliaRDM]

I find this post hilarious.....SCHs gets invites to do shit all the damn time. Come back to your own post when your a RDM that don't get invites to do anything due to being 'not-so-useful'. Stop being a whiney little bitch about getting invites. SCH is doing just fine, and you know this.

[Raksha]

Troll harder. Go bitch on the RDM forums.

[Llana_Virren]

I find this post hilarious.....SCHs gets invites to do shit all the damn time. Come back to your own post when your a RDM that don't get invites to do anything due to being 'not-so-useful'. Stop being a whiney little bitch about getting invites. SCH is doing just fine, and you know this.

Necrobump much? This horse was killed, buried, dug up, reanimated and beaten to death again.

[Afania]

Math shows that chatoyant starts winning around ~42% (or was it 46%) cure potency. Obviously you use what you have, but there's a big difference between Abyssea and the rest of the game. No one is saying that SCH is as useless as RDM, but the things it supposedly does well like healing and nuking are irrelevant to current endgame (for the most part).

Wouldn't SCH be a decent mage for new salvage? There's only 1 spot for healer/mage, and SCH can cure just fine and nuke to help with dmg in a 3~4 ppl pt. The disadvantage is that it needs SJ and JA unlock more than other mages though.

[Raksha]

Yeah but it's the same problem as the rest of the game.

You don't need an actual SCH, you just need a dual box mule SCH.

[Damane]

Necrobump much? This horse was killed, buried, dug up, reanimated and beaten to death again.

well more or less nerfed to death again when the embrava nerf hits! (but I will keep playing my sch!)

[Severence]

Not sure if anyone said this because I really only read the opening post: Welcome to the pain of RDM.

[Delvish]

Not sure if anyone said this because I really only read the opening post: Welcome to the pain of RDM.

That poor poor horse... Someone managed to put their twilight's set on him. How cruel.