Nyzul Isle Assault Bug

[Camate]

Greetings!

We recently confirmed that there is a bug for Nyzul Isle assault where users are able to know the order of lamps via the usage of unintended exploits.

The development team is currently working to fix this as soon as possible, but please keep in mind that using third-party tools or any form of game exploit usage will not be tolerated and that we are continuously keeping track and dealing with this issue.

Finally, if you are aware of players possibly using exploits, we urge you to make a report to the Special Task Force (http://support.na.square-enix.com/contacttop.php?id=20&la=1) to help facilitate our investigation.

[Castoth]

Why not just remove lamp floors entirely instead? This event is the most broken thing in FFXI as is, reducing the success rate of the cheaters to 0% (like the non-cheaters) will just make Neo Nyzul completely dead instead of just mostly dead.

[Francisco]

*scratches Thaumus off my to-do list*

[Kitkat]

Have to agree, having lamps at all in an event that doesn't save progress and has a random jump progression system on top of many other artificial time sink/spam blockers is rather asinine and redundant on keeping people from gear. Though, I am a bit tickled that there might be bans incoming from people using these exploits.....I wonder if it will be as grandiose as the salvage bans with people saying "They were just jealous of my awesome skills they couldn't replicate so they banned me"

[SpankWustler]

Man proposes.

God disposes.

Sadly, God does not just dispose of "lamp order" floors instead.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Took long enough, only been mentioned in EVERY Nyzul Isle thread.



Why not just remove lamp floors entirely instead? This event is the most broken thing in FFXI as is, reducing the success rate of the cheaters to 0% (like the non-cheaters) will just make Neo Nyzul completely dead instead of just mostly dead.

Least then they may look into fixing it properly.

PS. Well done Annelisse for providing the youtube video the Japanese linked to as proof of the cheat.

[Draylo]

Are you an idiot? That squashes any hopes of you getting a win at all, at least before you could have leeched wins off the real players that aren't helpless and need their hand held like some of the annoying casuals on these forums.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Are you an idiot? That squashes any hopes of you getting a win at all, at least before you could have leeched wins off the real players that aren't helpless and need their hand held like some of the annoying casuals on these forums.

Do we have someone admitting to cheating?!

[Draylo]

Does anything in my post say something about me cheating? I think not.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Does anything in my post say something about me cheating? I think not.

Then this has no impact on you. Good to hear.

cheating to win blocks a real fix, so long as people was winning that way SE assumed it worked.

[Mizuharu]

Buy "removing these bugs", you mean the lamps, right?

[Malthar]

Camate, people "using third-party tools or any form of game exploit" is not the problem. It's a symptom of the problem. If the order lamps were removed this would solve the problem for all players. The code and same time lamps are not bad, but the order lamps have got to go.

And if you want to know who is "using third-party tools or any form of game exploit" just look at who has F100 gear because I can 100% guarantee nobody got that gear without cheating.

[Heabea]

just make all the lamps everyone touch one or all at the same time, it wastes so much time with order. anyways from what i heard no one is using 3rd party programs unless using copy and paste that comes with windows to switch the dats around is a 3rd party program, then fuck it, everyone uses a 3rd party program

[Cahlum]

SE you are yet again oblivious to why people are using these lamp dats in the first place and it is because it is near impossible to win without. Remove the lamp order and all will be well.

[Camiie]

Took long enough, only been mentioned in EVERY Nyzul Isle thread.


Least then they may look into fixing it properly.

This is what I was trying to tell the people on the Alla forums, but all they could do was spout a bunch of stick-it-to-The-Man-for-holding-a-brother-down justifications for cheating to win. I even agreed with them that Neo-Nyzul is a horribly broken event, and needed desperately to be fixed, but they didn't take very kindly to what I had to say.

I hope this does end up being a wake-up call to people with a devil may care attitude and to SE as well.

To the players: Don't cheat for gear no matter how awesome it is or how unfair the event it's hidden behind is.

To SE: Don't create events where people feel the need to cheat to even have a chance.

Both sides are absolutely moronic in this case, and I don't have an ounce of sympathy or understanding for either.


Do we have someone admitting to cheating?!

If so he's hardly the first. People have been admitting it pretty blatantly all over the place.


Are you an idiot? That squashes any hopes of you getting a win at all, at least before you could have leeched wins off the real players that aren't helpless and need their hand held like some of the annoying casuals on these forums.

So using the cheats someone else cooked up isn't having your hand held?

You hardcore people asked for something difficult that only the best geared players could complete with rare and awesome rewards. SE granted your wish! Oh, but they're like an evil genie. They grant your wish, but in a sick and twisted way. They've always been like that though, and you guys should have known better than to ask for what you did. When you got it you found you couldn't do much better at it than the annoying casuals could. Then you cheat at the very event you requested, and rather than awesome you look like a bunch of idiots. My friends, I present to you the best and brightest of FFXI! Look upon them and be amazed!

[Siiri]

Also, please suggest to the devs that we start the timer on floor 1, not when you hit enter at the door. I use the stopwatch on my phone for runs and the timer starts on the black screen as you zone into the lobby.

[detlef]

People who use the same user name for all forums should be mindful of what they say.

Also, it would be very nice if there were some assurance that Nyzul would constantly be reevaluated. Right now, it sure sounds like SE thinks the event is great as-is and has no further plans to balance it. If gear acquisition suddenly takes a huge nose dive, will SE adjust the event? Or will it simply be working as intended?

And if you want to know who is "using third-party tools or any form of game exploit" just look at who has F100 gear because I can 100% guarantee nobody got that gear without cheating.I'd like to point out that there are a ton of JPs with Nyzul gear. What conclusion can we draw from this? I think the most infuriating thing is that a lot of posters on the JP forum seem to think this is strictly an NA issue when it's the entire FFXI population.

[Lojinxx]

Camate, people "using third-party tools or any form of game exploit" is not the problem. It's a symptom of the problem. If the order lamps were removed this would solve the problem for all players. The code and same time lamps are not bad, but the order lamps have got to go.
THIS! Get rid of order lamps! And on top of their gimmick, they're programmed horribly so that you can't efficiently solve them fast enough even with a talented group of people because of the lag associated with them. And all you people saying "oh thanks, this person, that person for posting youtube videos", just shut up lol the method by which ppl are switching lamp names is so simple and able to do with any npc in the game. Only reason SE is fixing it is because all u people cry so much about it and they're sick of listening to you. My 2cents :)

[Soidisant]

Hilarious how this is suddenly an issue because the JP's are in uproar about it on their forums after discovering our video. Yet it was a complete non-issue when we originally posted the video way back in April on these forums, said DAT edits were used AND a Dev even posted in the topic. Nothing was done or said about it because it was NA/EU players.

JP players find the exact same video 3 months later, some complain and some query it but instantly it's a recognised bug and a serious issue as a result.

Slightly ironical too considering we made the video to prove that you didn't need to fleehack or fillmode to win.

It's amusing that it's taken so long to come up too considering everyone in that video quit late April/early May.

[Phogg]

Are you an idiot? That squashes any hopes of you getting a win at all, at least before you could have leeched wins off the real players that aren't helpless and need their hand held like some of the annoying casuals on these forums.

So your point is a that preventing the use of cheats will prevent anyone from winning, and that prior to this only "real players" can win, therefore only people who use cheats are "real players"? You're silly.

[Waldrich]

Greetings!

We recently confirmed that there is a bug for Nyzul Isle assault where users are able to know the order of lamps via the usage of unintended exploits.

The development team is currently working to fix this as soon as possible, but please keep in mind that using third-party tools or any form of game exploit usage will not be tolerated and that we are continuously keeping track and dealing with this issue.

Finally, if you are aware of players possibly using exploits, we urge you to make a report to the Special Task Force (http://support.na.square-enix.com/contacttop.php?id=20&la=1) to help facilitate our investigation.

Square Enix please plans events in a better way, Legion is a good event cause there is no way to cheat, cause it's too simple, then it become 100% skillfull player event.

About Neo Nyzul Isle, it's extremly hard to win atm, so much luck involved, that's prolly why some people are using third party tools to win, then it's "player faulty again", but yes it's really "their faulty", but we still need Square Enix to solve the Major issue in this game "THE LACK OF PLAYERS" and I'm not talking about mules, afkers and etc...

I'm just glad to see a event like Dungeon Crawling incoming soon.

[Zerich]

Camate, we know you're the messenger, but this seriously isn't a bug.

[Karbuncle]

Sure everyone cheering its being fixed are the same ones content in their Aurore and Perle gear who's never touched an event outside of Abyssea. Hating just to hate.

I mean, I understand its definitely an exploit, But at the same time, Maybe they could try making the Event less of a kick in the dick than just nerfing everyone and everything who/that wins like they did with AV. Should remove Order lamps entirely, Its a run killer to even the best group, because it eats time.

It won't completely stop people from winning, But it will definitely make Nyzul a complete ghost town 99.9% Of the time, Anyone good already has their Armor... Inb4 Salvage Bans 2.0 :|

[Reiterpallasch]

And neo nyzul was ever won ever again. Unless their "fix" for the lamps is to remove them, this will become the next dead event that nobody gives a shit about.

The event is so luck based, that some people who use the dats and extra 3rd party 'help' still get screwed with bad luck and are unable to win.

[Waldrich]

something that we players should call a bug then is: "SCH x2 or Nothing" lol

[Camiie]

Sure everyone cheering its being fixed are the same ones content in their Aurore and Perle gear who's never touched an event outside of Abyssea. Hating just to hate.

I don't even own any of that gear, and I at least regularly do VW. Maybe I'm missing some sarcasm here? If you're being serious this doesn't seem like your style.


I mean, I understand its definitely an exploit, But at the same time, Maybe they could try making the Event less of a kick in the dick than just nerfing everyone and everything who/that wins like they did with AV. Should remove Order lamps entirely, Its a run killer to even the best group, because it eats time.

I have no issue with this at all. Fix the event. Hey I'd like to be able to do it too. They shouldn't be making things people feel the need to exploit in the first place. If that makes the game too easy, so be it.


It won't completely stop people from winning, But it will definitely make Nyzul a complete ghost town 99.9% Of the time, Anyone good already has their Armor... Inb4 Salvage Bans 2.0 :|

Anyone good who also cheats already has their armor.

[Mizuharu]

Also, quoting something from someone on ffxiah


Just ban everyone with Floor 100 gear.

lol no. Because how are they going to tell the people who did 100+ runs legit and managed to get a few pieces of gear as a reward for their luck? (I say luck, because that is the #1 key factor in Nyzul Isle.) Camate, tell the devs that this Nyzul Isle either needs

A) No "All Lamps (Order)" floors. Only code and same time floors.

OR

B) Provide a Runic Disc which allows us to SAVE PROGRESS. Even if it means removing the "Jump to ??? Floor" feature.

[Karbuncle]

I don't even own any of that gear, and I at least regularly do VW. Maybe I'm missing some sarcasm here? If you're being serious this doesn't seem like your style.

You seem to be a unique exception. That being said, Not sure about the cheering going on here, Anyone good has their gear already, This is only going to hurt the remaining player base.


I have no issue with this at all. Fix the event. Hey I'd like to be able to do it too. They shouldn't be making things people feel the need to exploit in the first place. If that makes the game too easy, so be it.

Seems to be in agreeance.


Anyone good who also cheats already has their armor.

Thats what i said i think.

The only reason this is being patched now is because the JP Have their armor, and now they're making sure no one else gets it through the same methods, and as such, are reporting the "Bug". Its true.

[Washburn]

Or simply drop the amount of key items needed to purchase the HQ gear.

[Soidisant]

Anybody who is remotely good got their gear ages ago even if they only used DAT edits. It literally took us 3 weeks to cap on drops after getting our act together. And I imagine people who went a step further and flee/wallhacked will have been done even quicker.

I bet the number of people who have been doing Nyzul on a weekly basis completely legit and are still going at this point is incredibly small. Most people will either have their gear (probably by hook or crook) or gave up in frustration. There will be a few people still plugging away but I imagine the numbers are small.

[Mizuharu]

Or simply drop the amount of key items needed to purchase the HQ gear.

I think this works also. Just get rid of the NQ +1 +2 +3 armor...

Clear Floor 20 x20 = 1 HQ armor Key Item (Boss drops HQ feet)
Clear Floor 40 x15 = 1 HQ armor Key Item (Boss drops HQ legs)
Clear Floor 60 x10 = 1 HQ armor Key Item (Boss drops HQ Hands)
Clear Floor 80 x5 = 1 HQ armor Key Item (Boss drops HQ bodies)
Clear Floor 100 x1 = 1 HQ armor key item (Boss drops HQ head)

[Camiie]

The only reason this is being patched now is because the JP Have their armor, and now they're making sure no one else gets it through the same methods, and as such, are reporting the "Bug". Its true.

The old thing where the rich folks make their fortunes and then shut the door leading to high-society behind them. That doesn't surprise me.

[detlef]

If it makes you feel better, I think they should open the doors for everybody.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Anybody who is remotely good got their gear ages ago even if they only used DAT edits. It literally took us 3 weeks to cap on drops after getting our act together. And I imagine people who went a step further and flee/wallhacked will have been done even quicker.

I bet the number of people who have been doing Nyzul on a weekly basis completely legit and are still going at this point is incredibly small. Most people will either have their gear (probably by hook or crook) or gave up in frustration. There will be a few people still plugging away but I imagine the numbers are small.

Should you really admin to cheating?

[Soidisant]

Should you really admin to cheating?

It doesn't matter if I personally used DAT edits or not. It's a video of my group that the JP's are complaining about so I'm guilty by association if SE decided to act upon it.

If there were repercussions I'd only be bothered because the one player from our group who does still play was squeaky clean. The other 5 of us have all quit so yeah it would suck to be banned but it wouldn't be the end of the world even for those of us who did nothing wrong.

[Aarahs]

You guys are hilarious. JP players got +5 armor playing on their PS2s. Obviously they couldn't have gotten legit wins, and you guys just plain suck. No, they must have somehow hacked the game... from their PS2s.

If only I could add an appropriate facepalm image from my phone.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

It doesn't matter if I personally used DAT edits or not. It's a video of my group that the JP's are complaining about so I'm guilty by association if SE decided to act upon it.

If there were repercussions I'd only be bothered because the one player from our group who does still play was squeaky clean. The other 5 of us have all quit so yeah it would suck to be banned but it wouldn't be the end of the world even for those of us who did nothing wrong.

Fair enough.



You guys are hilarious. JP players got +5 armor playing on their PS2s. Obviously they couldn't have gotten legit wins, and you guys just plain suck. No, they must have somehow hacked the game... from their PS2s.

If only I could add an appropriate facepalm image from my phone.

And you are deluded.

[Karbuncle]

You guys are hilarious. JP players got +5 armor playing on their PS2s. Obviously they couldn't have gotten legit wins, and you guys just plain suck. No, they must have somehow hacked the game... from their PS2s.

If only I could add an appropriate facepalm image from my phone.

Are you being sarcastic or stupid? Not all JP play on the PS2, and I'd like you to provide me proof positive of a group of JP playing on PS2 Who are 5/5 For the Entire floor 100 Sets.

Getting to floor 100 without any outside resources is entirely possible, But its a 1/100 Long shot, and i Doubt anyone, JP Master-race-sankawaiidesu, or otherwise, Has gotten 5/5 set without cheating or benefiting from someone who was.

the JP Player is as big of cheaters, if not more blatantly so, then the NA/EU Community, They're just less vocal of it.

[Zirael]

Greetings!

We recently confirmed that there is a bug for Nyzul Isle assault where users are able to know the order of lamps via the usage of unintended exploits.

The development team is currently working to fix this as soon as possible, but please keep in mind that using third-party tools or any form of game exploit usage will not be tolerated and that we are continuously keeping track and dealing with this issue.

Finally, if you are aware of players possibly using exploits, we urge you to make a report to the Special Task Force (http://support.na.square-enix.com/contacttop.php?id=20&la=1) to help facilitate our investigation.
Will any bugs reported in this thread:
Nyzul Isle Uncharted Region adjustment suggestions (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/24033-Nyzul-Isle-Uncharted-Region-adjustment-suggestions)
this thread:
Nyzul Isle Revamp: Praise and Lamentation (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/22545-Nyzul-Isle-Revamp-Praise-and-Lamentation)
or this thread:
NEO Nyzul 2.0 (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/23766-NEO-Nyzul-2.0)
be fixed?

Legit players would like to have a shot at this event too, but as it stands there are too many gameplay issues with that event or FFXI in general. I guess some like to call them "PS2 limitatiions" or "Balance" for simplicity's sake. I still do this event because most people from the set still show up (half of the set got replaced over time tho), but I feel guilty at times for wasting their time with "FU" written all over this event.

For a start, any plans on fixing random crashes, people freezing on previous floor and not being able to warp up or people getting locked out and not being ble to interact with lamps, boxes etc? Any plans to fix the SCHx2 requirement?
Fixing lamp dats for all the butthurt people is all good, but there are SO MANY other broken things in here needing more attention... Like making the event, you know, fun to play?

[Mizuharu]

Would using Vent be considered cheating? Since the original means to communicate between players was the chat window in FFXI... And Vent lets you actually TALK talk to others about strats/etc... I'm not asking for the "are you serious" face or anything. Just popped into mind that Sqenix might view it as a 3rd party tool... I don't see how it is though. >_>

[Reiterpallasch]

Dropping the bronze/silver/mythril/gold astrarium requirement from 25 to 5, and allowing them all to be redeemed for the next higher tier would be a nice step towards making this event less of a kick to the balls.

Get to 100? Nice, here's your instant HQ piece. Can't quite make it or RNG having funsies with you? At least you can still work towards HQ gear in a reasonable amount of time.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Would using Vent be considered cheating? Since the original means to communicate between players was the chat window in FFXI... And Vent lets you actually TALK talk to others about strats/etc... I'm not asking for the "are you serious" face or anything. Just popped into mind that Sqenix might view it as a 3rd party tool... I don't see how it is though. >_>

No, it doesn't interact with the game.

[Danita]

Warning: Long read/rant.

I play this game to do things with my friends while getting something to show for it. At the same time, I really like to focus on being well equipped and having great gear, because that makes it possible to participate in more events (try being a PLD in VW without mythic/relic/empyrian).

None of my friends are really big into game mechanics or have serious play time. Many are just now coming back or have recently done so. As a result, my friends do just fine in places where excessive buffs can make up for what they don't have (such as Abyssea), or where adding more people to the event can do so (such as Neo-Limbus). In places where every person counts (Neo-Nyzul) and/or excessive buffs aren't available (Legion), my friends know that they are a liability to the group without being told. The result is that they don't do these events. And since I play to spend time with my friends, even though I could be successful in these arenas, I don't do these events... but I want to.

This is where things get upsetting for me. My casual friends simply aren't going to get geared up fast enough to keep up with new content, and so I'm stuck outside of the events I want to do because I can't take my friends with me. It leaves me with two choices:
1) Go without my friends.
2) Skip the event.

If I do the first thing, my friends realize that I never have time for them because they are too far behind the power-curve, so they question why I invited them back in the first place. And the truth is I never really have time to stop what I'm doing to help them, but they can't get caught up without help. Then they quit.

If I do the second thing, I focus on gearing my friends up so I can do things with them, and since we're having fun more and more friends come back to the game. SO I focus on more and more people, and pretty soon I'm playing the game for everyone else. It's better than playing alone, but eventually I get burned out and quit. After I quit, things stop getting done in my casual group since I mainly organized or coordianted things. People break up into smaller groups or join other linkshells, other people get bored, and they quit. Then I get tired of not playing, come back, invite my friends back who quit, but am unable to get the ones back who are in new linkshells. My group is then even more desperately in need of building up, so I focus on that with them, and I'm back to being unable to do any content with my friends because it's too difficult and I simply can't get them caught up at the pace in which content is released.

Why am I posting this here?

Because I need you, SE, to STOP MAKING CASUAL UNFRIENDLY CONTENT. Abyssea was a perfectly designed arena. Hardcore players can get all they want quickly, make a lot of money, and have time for other activities. Casual players can log in for a few hours, get a little bit done - and even if they don't actually achieve anything specific that day, they get bits and pieces (upgrade items/key items/atma/abyssite/exp/cruor/ops) of achievement that they can carry on to the next day, or whenever they are able to next log in. With even just one other person, I have enough personal job flexibility to be able to get something useful done, and with a larger group the event scales because we can then mass farm KI's and work on bigger projects like empyrian weapons.

Old nyzul isle was also good in this way. You could climb in major jumps as a hardcore player and/or farm multiple bosses. At the same time, casual players could climb a few floors and come back again to continue progress, possibly getting a useful ??? item or weapon to unlock as well as a few exp.

Neo-nyzul is so bad right now that I can't get a group of 6 people to do it. Literally...can't. I am so upset about the situation that I have considered spending real money on gil so that I can pay someone who will make the climb and let me lot the items. (And now you guys are going to make it even less likely that anyone can win at this?! RAAAAGE)

Since there is no way my friends and I can succeed at this, then how about just letting me pay you directly for the gear? I have taken 2 SCH in and the best we did was floor 60, once. Since then, I can't even get my girlfriend to do this event with me - it's that upsetting to everyone involved. Literally, after one week of experiencing this event, one of my friends immediately cancelled his account. Another cancelled a few weeks later when it was apparent we couldn't get any interest drummed up from there. If this change you are talking about doesn't also come with something to make this event actually winnable, I'm probably going to cancel again as well. I don't know how else to express the sheer rage and frustration I feel when the only hope for me to succeed at something is to reward cheaters and/or the ultra-rich and elite groups by spending real money so I can line their pockets with gil. Why the f-k can't I take 5 friends and get any gear from this, even if it means I spend more time due to the casual nature of my group? Instead of saving progress and continuing (winning half as often as cheaters or elite groups, which I can live with), we start over and win NEVER.

MMORPG's and RPG's in general reward amazing players and amazing luck, yes. But they have also always awarded people willing to just grind away at something as many times as it takes to win. That's why I play them; that's my ability. I don't play fast-twitch games like shooters because I'm not that skillful. I don't play games where you have to be perfectly lucky to get the best stuff like Diablo because I hate for luck to be my total master (which is why I hate VW, although the ticketing system is a start in the right direction). I love games where luck is a factor, yes, but where you can always make small but steady progress in the form of points or saves.

The bottom line, as I see things for your business is this:

If you only want FFXI to be funded by Hardcore players while casuals continue to quit, keep doing what you are doing with your events. If I could find the person responsible for Neo-Nyzul, I'd kick him in the nuts.

[MrPeet]

everything in danitas last post sums up why i quit ffxi

[Zerich]

Would using Vent be considered cheating? Since the original means to communicate between players was the chat window in FFXI... And Vent lets you actually TALK talk to others about strats/etc... I'm not asking for the "are you serious" face or anything. Just popped into mind that Sqenix might view it as a 3rd party tool... I don't see how it is though. >_>

staaaahppp

[Darkria]

With or without bots, dats, and more, have you ever heard of a nin, thf, or any other jobs like that complete it? I would like to have my other char get some of that gear, but not only will no one let me on those jobs, but they are useless in neo nyzul. SE doesnt need to go after the people using these cheats, they need to make it so anyone can obtain the gear. No matter what job they have or dont have. I will not spend my time lvling a job I do not want to play or already have lvled on another acocunt so I can get the gear.

[Arcadeus]

It's the lamps that are the problem, those who are majorly complaining are wanting the gear handed to them without having first obtained decent non Nyzul gear and a reliable team. It's natural that some jobs will not work in Neo, the mobs are very strong and hit very hard and you have to kill them very quickly, so naturally a job like a NIN or a THF will not prosper as well as a Resolution DRK. Nyzul is frankly NOT something for the casual, beating challenging content is reserved for those who go the extra mile to make sure they're the pinnacle of their job to the best of their ability. Also, if you honestly think that the JP don't hack in Nyzul, DAT swap in Nyzul, then you're awfully deluded.

I would go as far as to say the Japanese do it far more than NA players. In my first Nyzul static we tried and we tried, but on average we won a tag every three weeks. Meanwhile every JP player I saw go in, no matter the gear, would win.

[Kitkat]

And already you have players pulling the "All you haters wear pearle/aurora/etc gear" "you're casual players" and all I can do is play the card: Bullshit. Worked my ass off to get gear I have including relic weapon (soon to be plural) and emp weapon. I've been doing the VW grind as I can to get gear from there as well to keep up to date, but I find most my play time is centered around times my LS/friends are asleep or at work now or they have created groups already. I now find myself in a situation where I either learn a new language to find a group or screw my sleep over a fair amount to participate during "peak times."

Kindly take your cheating tears of sorrow to the corner where you belong. If you get banned after investigations are completed my heart bleeds purple panther piss for you, but seriously...what the hell did you expect? Was not the salvage bans proof enough that SE will go after players who willingly and continuously abuse an exploit? And don't flatter yourself, using exploits/cheats/hacks doesn't make you "hardcore" "better" or "more skilled" than anyone else. Just means you'll sink to do whatever possible to make sure you get what you want. Not the brightest way to go about showing an event is broken...by circumventing it with the use of cheats.

[Ophannus]

Nyzul gear is some of the best gear in the game. Nobody said everyone needs to have it. It's possible to win nyzul but not 100% of the time, people CAN and DO win legitimately, it just takes many, many tries. Nobody said that gear of this magnitude should be easy to get and you should go 5/5 on all 3 sets in 15 runs.


Old nyzul isle was also good in this way. You could climb in major jumps as a hardcore player and/or farm multiple bosses. At the same time, casual players could climb a few floors and come back again to continue progress, possibly getting a useful ??? item or weapon to unlock as well as a few exp.

You've completely disregarded the fact that:
1) Floor 20/40/60/80 bosses drop gear too that isn't that far from floor 100 gear in terms of stats.
2) Any chump pickup group with a goodsetup can set the stopper on floor 60/80 and easily clear these to get gear and astrariums.
3) Just like how in your post: hardcore player and/or farm multiple bosses. At the same time, casual players could climb a few floors and come back again to continue progress, in neo nyzul a similar system is there. Hardcore players with excellent gear/cohesiveness and powder boots could make it to 100, while casuals could farm lower floors and farm astrariums to get 100's. The difference in stats between 80 and 100 are 1-2 points of stats difference and set effect. 20-80 gear is for casuals and 100 gear is for hardcore. I'm not defending SE but I'm not chastising them either. The content is fine the way it is. Why make it easier for casuals to get floor 100 gear when it's already easy enough to get and the stats make it the best in the game? Last I checked most players went months at 75 to get abjuration gear like E.body or getting salvage gear to drop, the luck/skill factor of Neo Nyzul to get to 100 simulates the same time sink, going weeks-months to get your coveted 100 piece just like it took week-months to build an ares PIECE.

[larrymc]

Greetings!

We recently confirmed that there is a bug for Nyzul Isle assault where users are able to know the order of lamps via the usage of unintended exploits.

The development team is currently working to fix this as soon as possible, but please keep in mind that using third-party tools or any form of game exploit usage will not be tolerated and that we are continuously keeping track and dealing with this issue.

Finally, if you are aware of players possibly using exploits, we urge you to make a report to the Special Task Force (http://support.na.square-enix.com/contacttop.php?id=20&la=1) to help facilitate our investigation.

Makes you wonder if Neo-Nyzul Isle was/is just a honeypot. The lamp dat mod, along with other exploits have been talked about openly on this forum for at least 4 months. And they are just now getting around to fixing it...

[Belmonts]

Greetings!

We recently confirmed that there is a bug for Nyzul Isle assault where users are able to know the order of lamps via the usage of unintended exploits.

The development team is currently working to fix this as soon as possible, but please keep in mind that using third-party tools or any form of game exploit usage will not be tolerated and that we are continuously keeping track and dealing with this issue.

Finally, if you are aware of players possibly using exploits, we urge you to make a report to the Special Task Force (http://support.na.square-enix.com/contacttop.php?id=20&la=1) to help facilitate our investigation.

Sorry to bust your bubble, Camate. I know you mean good but all the people that cheated on this and other exploits on Neo-Nyzul have already the gear they wanted.

They couldn't care less...

Again, we do appreciate SE efforts to stop this.

[Karbuncle]

And already you have players pulling the "All you haters wear pearle/aurora/etc gear" "you're casual players" and all I can do is play the card: Bullshit. Worked my ass off to get gear I have including relic weapon (soon to be plural) and emp weapon. I've been doing the VW grind as I can to get gear from there as well to keep up to date, but I find most my play time is centered around times my LS/friends are asleep or at work now or they have created groups already. I now find myself in a situation where I either learn a new language to find a group or screw my sleep over a fair amount to participate during "peak times."

Kindly take your cheating tears of sorrow to the corner where you belong. If you get banned after investigations are completed my heart bleeds purple panther piss for you, but seriously...what the hell did you expect? Was not the salvage bans proof enough that SE will go after players who willingly and continuously abuse an exploit? And don't flatter yourself, using exploits/cheats/hacks doesn't make you "hardcore" "better" or "more skilled" than anyone else. Just means you'll sink to do whatever possible to make sure you get what you want. Not the brightest way to go about showing an event is broken...by circumventing it with the use of cheats.

Edit: Meh, Trying my best to de-douchify this post. Can't any harder.

Then you're just oblivious. Oh, Maybe i should cry in a corner where i belong too? Sorry to burst your bubble of bullcrap. I don't cheat. I don't even use Windower, And i don't own a single piece of Neo-Nyzul Armor.

But what i do realize is, This does absolutely nothing to stem the problem, Know why? all the people you actually hate (THe ones who cheated) already have their armor.

So what does this accomplish? Preventing more Players accessing the armor? seems meaningless since anyone who wants the armor willing to cheat for it already has it through the cheating means. This update is at best a lipservice to those people who think Windower is Satan's tool. It solves nothing, and only prevents these groups from Merc'ing the armor, Which ironically, is the absolute best method for casual players to obtain the armor.

If they follow it up with Salvage Bans 2.0? They're going to lose More than half of their playerbase, JP or NA/EU, Because even if everyone is not caught in the ban, They're friends of friends, Who will quit because their LS is empty cause of the band, or their friends got banned.

I'm not saying its not a possibility they'll go Banning people, Of course, But it still begs the point, This solves none of the real issues. Damage is done and past. So it leads me back to my first point, Cheering for this means one thing, You're oblivious.

I'm sorry if that stings or sounds rude, but if you think this is any meaningful update, You need a wake up call.

[Danita]

My girlfriend posted this on Facebook, in our forum of 300 members. I thought I'd repost it for here; I like her idea.


I'd be happy to go along to Neo-Nyzul and get gear & wins. But as it stands you're lucky to get to floor 60 w 2x sch and 4 very well geared dd's. And there's no way you'll get to floor 80/100 without that. Then if you want to do multiple runs you either need alts w/ COR, or you pay for 2hr resets from a COR because you HAVE to use Tabula Rasa. No ifs, ands or buts, the SCH's MUST 2hr to get to 60+. As it stands our ls is rather barren in the SCH dept - I've got mine @99 and have the AF3+2 hands (must have to make Embrava last half the run - the other sch covers the other half). If anyone else in SSIF even has SCH leveled I'm not aware of it. Honestly what they ought to do is have a KI system every 20 floors or something. Defeat the boss on floor 20? Get a temp KI that allows you to start @ 20 next time around, and then disappears after being used. Or heck, make the KI's available only on reaching floor 40 or 80. This gives players credit for reaching the higher floors without allowing you to permanently save progress a'la the original Nyzul system.

Remember, we're not a hardcore LS but we have always been able to get things done in the past. It's only now that SE is programming things to exclude us that we feel the game is no longer built for us... and people are quitting all over the place for our group.

[Kitkat]

Funny, you still seem to forget that the same thing were true for the salvage bans. They already had their armor too, but after investigations concluded they got banned as well as some that were "oblivious" to the reason behind splitting alliance at NM deaths. No, seriously...look up the whiners from those round of bans....some of them hadn't been doing salvage in months and still got banned.

Honestly, anyone who thinks that they can't figure out who is and who isn't using these exploits is either fooling themselves, or can't see that an obvious progression past lamp floors on first try almost every time is going to look a bit suspicious. You make it sound like it would be a bad thing to lose these players, but honestly they only hurt the game more than they help it. How anyone sees personal gain through the abuse of exploits as helping is beyond me especially when it leads to this in the end. Then again, those who don't learn from the past are bound to repeat it in the future.

Cheering for it doesn't make me oblivious, it means that it can hopefully be rectified by other means, such as follow up adjustments, or cause players to replan how they do the event. Anyone who thinks that those who exploit a mechanic to this extent and shouldn't be reprimanded in some form is far more oblivious than those cheering it on.

[Cahlum]

If SE bans any of the tiny amount of players left on this game because of this they are stupid.

[Karbuncle]

Funny, you still seem to forget that the same thing were true for the salvage bans. They already had their armor too, but after investigations concluded they got banned as well as some that were "oblivious" to the reason behind splitting alliance at NM deaths. No, seriously...look up the whiners from those round of bans....some of them hadn't been doing salvage in months and still got banned.

I don't think i said they wouldn't do bans, I'm just saying if they do, Half the playerbase would like end up gone because of the aftermath. They're still capable of doing it, and they would be in the right if they did, I sure as hell wouldn't argue, Though I'd be disappointed that the game would be all but dead at that point.


Honestly, anyone who thinks that they can't figure out who is and who isn't using these exploits is either fooling themselves, or can't see that an obvious progression past lamp floors on first try almost every time is going to look a bit suspicious. You make it sound like it would be a bad thing to lose these players, but honestly they only hurt the game more than they help it. How anyone sees personal gain through the abuse of exploits as helping is beyond me especially when it leads to this in the end. Then again, those who don't learn from the past are bound to repeat it in the future.

I made it sound like a bad thing? Well. To you, Maybe not, But in the grand scheme of things, yes. A lot of these players aren't bad people, They just swapped Dats so they didn't have to deal with the terribleness of that particular part of the event.

Those people are part of LSs, they have friends, those people who don't cheat will be effected by the bannings as well. It won't end the game immediately, But it would make a lot of people lose interest all together. I know if i logged on and somehow half my LS was no longer there, I'd probably give up on the game, especially with all the ridiculous Alliance content.

Hard enough finding a good LS without it being banned.


Cheering for it doesn't make me oblivious, it means that it can hopefully be rectified by other means, such as follow up adjustments, or cause players to replan how they do the event. Anyone who thinks that those who exploit a mechanic to this extent and shouldn't be reprimanded in some form is far more oblivious than those cheering it on.

It kinda does. Especially if you're only cheering for this update notice, Which you were, Until it was pointed out that it would not change anything. In which case, You've qualified it with the Hopefully it will rectify other things, like Ban people.

Cause you know, Banning people is always a good start to resolving an issue.

[Zirael]

My girlfriend posted this on Facebook, in our forum of 300 members. I thought I'd repost it for here; I like her idea.



Remember, we're not a hardcore LS but we have always been able to get things done in the past. It's only now that SE is programming things to exclude us that we feel the game is no longer built for us... and people are quitting all over the place for our group.
Suprises me still so few people know that you can get free Revitalizer from Moblin Maze Mongers. 1 person opens maze, everyone in the party gets Revitalizer, rinse/repeat.
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Revitalization_Team
Another method for 100% Revitalizer is killing this:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Resheph

Or... you can shout 10-30min for a COR.

[Kitkat]

That is the difference between foresight and aftermath, choices and consequences. Goes to show that just a "simple dat swap" has created more hardship than it has created positive results. These people knew what they were doing when they did it which is why is should result in reprimand. You're reasoning is like comparing the reason why a person stole from a corner store to feed their family. What about the person they held up? What about the strangers they inconvenienced during investigations? It wasn't because it was the only choice, it was because it was easier than going about it the responsible way and correct way.

So no, I feel no sympathy or see no reason to show mercy on those who exploited something in the system because they knew full well when they started doing it that it wasn't something the developers would allow. In fact, there was an update in the past that tried to stop this by moving some of the data server side, but people still continued to do Hex edits and dat swaps to circumvent it. Am I a bit hard on something so "trivial?" Maybe to you I am, but I work with individuals that have the same train of thought as these people, and oddly enough they have the same reasoning...or what I like to call "excuses" you are now using. Funny thing, that none of these "excuses" stopped them from doing it before hand, but somehow are very important in the aftermath of what they have done and should be reasons not to punish them for doing it. Please, get over yourself if you think not reprimanding people for obviously breaking TOS rules is the smart thing to do. You're only inviting these people to do it again then cry crocodile tears again when they get called out for it.

[SpankWustler]

You're reasoning is like comparing the reason why a person stole from a corner store to feed their family. What about the person they held up? What about the strangers they inconvenienced during investigations? It wasn't because it was the only choice, it was because it was easier than going about it the responsible way and correct way.

To assume there is a victim in this case is to assume several things. That the Development Bros are not only diligent and capable enough to monitor success and failure rates of Neo-Nyzul Isle excursions, but also that they would respond in any way other than saying "We did this and this is what we meant to do," after noting the low success rate.

My opinion of them is not as such.

To me, this seems more like stealing something out of a mall's trash dumpster. Technically it is illegal to take the stuff in there, and for that sole reason somebody shouldn't be surprised if he or she is fined or tossed in jail overnight or whatever. That doesn't mean anyone has been victimized or that anything has been taken away from anyone.

[Kitkat]

But it doesn't make it a victimless crime. Rather than take appropriate courses of action to remedy the situation the person made the poor choice to do what they did. By people exploiting a flaw in the program by use of altering how the game is meant to be played they have already created victims by giving false data that the system is not flawed and should remain as is. They then create further victims when they get caught since it will indirectly affect those who rely on them for help with other events once they get reprimanded for their actions.

Take your scenario for example, is it really a victimless crime? What about the establishments image to those who see this woman going through their trash to take something that was disposed of? What about the immediate family of this woman who made the choice to go into the trash? What about the bills she may not be able to make because she now has to pay fines? What about the co-workers who get called in to cover her shift because she got placed in jail over night, or even over the weekend?

How exactly is that a victimless crime when you look at all that is indirectly and directly affected by this persons choice to do the wrong thing?

[cidbahamut]

But it doesn't make it a victimless crime. Rather than take appropriate courses of action to remedy the situation the person made the poor choice to do what they did.

So what exactly is the appropriate course of action that a player could take that would actually remedy the situation? Telling the Development Bros to improve their event cleary doesn't remedy the situation, so what options were then left to them? I'm genuinely curious.

[Lollerblades]

I can smell the ban hammer !

[detlef]

Are you suggesting that SE is monitoring the Nyzul situation and will adjust it based how people do? Do you think that they'll see the huge upcoming drop off in participation and winning runs and say "oh my word, we have to adjust this, people aren't winning enough."

[Zuidar]

I agree about the frustrations and stuff with Order lamp objective. I don't mind for everything else to stay as is, but I do see Order Lamps being the biggest problem and wastes more time than other stuff. I do wish to either see something done to Order lamps either remove "Order" completely and just have "Same Time" and "Code" left as is.

[Camiie]

So what exactly is the appropriate course of action that a player could take that would actually remedy the situation? Telling the Development Bros to improve their event cleary doesn't remedy the situation, so what options were then left to them? I'm genuinely curious.

There probably wasn't an appropriate course of action that would fix anything. What people should have done is not do events they don't like and not let the lure of shinies and a sense of entitlement lead them to break the rules.

[Demon6324236]

Greetings!

We recently confirmed that there is a bug for Nyzul Isle assault where users are able to know the order of lamps via the usage of unintended exploits.

The development team is currently working to fix this as soon as possible, but please keep in mind that using third-party tools or any form of game exploit usage will not be tolerated and that we are continuously keeping track and dealing with this issue.

Finally, if you are aware of players possibly using exploits, we urge you to make a report to the Special Task Force (http://support.na.square-enix.com/contacttop.php?id=20&la=1) to help facilitate our investigation.10 Likes.
Why not just remove lamp floors entirely instead? This event is the most broken thing in FFXI as is, reducing the success rate of the cheaters to 0% (like the non-cheaters) will just make Neo Nyzul completely dead instead of just mostly dead.31 Likes.



Please tell the reps, the community has spoken its opinion on their choices, and relay the messages brought to you by the people in this thread, concerning this change.

[Aldersyde]

If SE bans any of the tiny amount of players left on this game because of this they are stupid.

Hmmm, but the general consensus on this forum seems to be that it's a good move for SE to deny the tiny amount of players on the NA PS2 the new expansion. Keep cheaters and get rid of loyal customers. Makes sense to me.

I've heard all these arguments before...before they did the salvage bans. I think there''s going to be a lot of laughs to be had before this is all over.

[Hunewearl]

I don't see the point in having cheaters banned. I mean, I just can't bring myself to care about people who cheated for the same gear I got.

I see the point in asking SE over and over to update the event itself so that anyone can do it and earn the gear, I really think anyone should be able to get it, period. I just don't understand why people care about others when X player obtaining a full Phorcys or not has 0 impact on them.

At this point, we don't even need people to brag about their non-existent skill, jealousy is here automatically, and it's really sad.

The way Nyzul Isle Uncharted works is a shame, but the way the majority of players react is even worse. This is why some people are not meant to be respected as players, because they are just made of jealousy, envy and other things that can't be respected.

Also, about the video, I hope this SAM will at least get fired, using Masamune in there should really earn you a ban.

[Infidi]

If they can't remove lamp floors completely, maybe they can alter it to be less of the luck based, time consuming, monstrosity it currently is? I vote for (IF they are adamant about not removing it entirely) just making it "Do the Lamps OR kill all enemies on the floor.", just as an example. Maybe give MULTIPLE objectives to choose from on lamp floors rather then just one. Of course... they would probably implement it to pertain to ALL floors, if they did that. I dunno if that'd be bad or worse. If its randomized could get two lamp objectives. XD

[Demon6324236]

If they can't remove lamp floors completely, maybe they can alter it to be less of the luck based, time consuming, monstrosity it currently is? I vote for (IF they are adamant about not removing it entirely) just making it "Do the Lamps OR kill all enemies on the floor.", just as an example. Maybe give MULTIPLE objectives to choose from on lamp floors rather then just one. Of course... they would probably implement it to pertain to ALL floors, if they did that. I dunno if that'd be bad or worse. If its randomized could get two lamp objectives. XD

Honestly even if it were 2 lamp floors in 1, its not order alone, and since your saying its do 1 or the other even on a double lamp floor it wouldn't be to bad because you can get code which is easy or same time which isn't nearly as bad.

[Spiritreaver]

Read the whole thread and this post sums up the whole deal imo


There probably wasn't an appropriate course of action that would fix anything. What people should have done is not do events they don't like and not let the lure of shinies and a sense of entitlement lead them to break the rules.


That right there is the correct answer.

Awesome stuff in NNI, no question about it. But in classic form, SE hid it behind a shoddy rehash of a good event. An event that absolutely pales to its predecessor. Now i am in no way God's gift to anyone, but i did a good bit of NNI when it hit, then promptly said 'No thanks' when i saw it for the crap that it is. I've abstained from the event since and plan on continuing to until it gets reworked. And when the whole SCHX2 BS strat hit, i knew i'd made the right choice, 'cause i knew where it was all headed.

IMO if more ppl had done the same, SE would have paid more attention to the event before now. Well more than that thing with the wins on lower lvls going toward an item from higher up anyways.

And real fast at this


I don't think i said they wouldn't do bans, I'm just saying if they do, Half the playerbase would like end up gone because of the aftermath...

Nope. The exact same thing was said before the Salvage bannings back in the day. Game is STILL here and humorously ppl didn't take anything away from what happened last time.

Not picking at you Karbuncle by any means, just using this because its almost word for word what i recently heard ingame. And that conversation was a carbon copy of one i heard back in '08 right before the bannings.

And on another note, even if ppl do end up getting banned over this, i'm pretty sure they'll be back ingame within the week. Just like last time.

[Karbuncle]

Nope. The exact same thing was said before the Salvage bannings back in the day. Game is STILL here and humorously ppl didn't take anything away from what happened last time.

I don't believe so entirely, What was said before the Salvage bans was something along the lines of "If they ban us, All the best players will be gone, and No one will ever figure anything out in the future". I don't think anyone expected the game to die... Right now though, It would suck for a lot of people. Either way, Their arrogance was pretty hilarious, "They won't ban us, Its game mechanics" and so forth... Acting like no one would figure anything out with them gone... That's not so much the case this time around... It would be more about people looking at their friend list and seeing it half empty, and becoming bored... causing a cascade effect.

I can safely say one of the top 3 causes of players leaving is their friends are no longer playing, Wiping a good chunk of peoples friends of the list will cause them to lose the drive to play.

It won't kill the game for sure, But it would definitely be a body blow to it. I know I'd be quite upset if i logged in missing half of my Friendslists or LS... I'd probably end up quitting. Last time i quit I just had money problems, and it seemed like a good time to go, If i logged on and had no one to talk too, I'd never look back.


Not picking at you Karbuncle by any means, just using this because its almost word for word what i recently heard ingame. And that conversation was a carbon copy of one i heard back in '08 right before the bannings.

Well then whoever said that is tarded :P.

As far as people being banned coming back, With Salvage bans, Games was still technically... newer, PLayers didnt mind starting over, Someone who was banned from this was banned... well... from this, I'd like to think they'd probably take the time to walk away, unless they're hopeless addicted which, I'm not discounting.

As a Disclaimer, I will say, I'm not picking on you either there. But i will say this, As far as just not going for the 'Shinies', Unfortunately thats hard for a lot of people. No one would deny MMO's at their core are games designed around 2 things.

1) Talking to people
2) Shinies.

We can't all use the game as an expensive Skype with Avatars, A lot of players play only for the Shinies, asking them to ignore the Shinies because the event is basically asking them to quit the game. The problem isn't entirely in people using these methods, Its in the fact SE Designed an event so rediculous that people felt the only hope of winning was in using these methods.

I will admit, I gave serious consideration to these methods, But I ultimately never did it because well, I was not playing at the time, But i shudder to think what may have been If i was active during the influx. I personally don't think I've of resorted to cheats, But i do know I will not fault those who did.

This is in regards to Lamp Dat swapping of course.

[Camiie]

If SE bans any of the tiny amount of players left on this game because of this they are stupid.

I dunno, as I said in the Alla thread on this topic, Japan pretty much invented the idea of honor before reason. I think SE places a much higher value on integrity than we westerners can comprehend. Cultural differences aside, they've proven they don't like cheating or exploits that lead directly to gear and gil production. They may not catch everyone, but they will do bans over this.

[Monchat]

Greetings!

We recently confirmed that there is a bug for Nyzul Isle assault where users are able to know the order of lamps via the usage of unintended exploits.

The development team is currently working to fix this as soon as possible, but please keep in mind that using third-party tools or any form of game exploit usage will not be tolerated and that we are continuously keeping track and dealing with this issue.

Finally, if you are aware of players possibly using exploits, we urge you to make a report to the Special Task Force (http://support.na.square-enix.com/contacttop.php?id=20&la=1) to help facilitate our investigation.

This is even more proof that the feedback on the EN forums aren't even taken into account by the DEVs. There have been like 5+ thread about this. Ironically everytime someone mentionned the cheat too explicitly they were banned or post deleted.

Either that or you are bunch of hypocrites that faint discovering an issue. It's funny that when a JP finds one you tube video with cheater the JP reps immediatly reply and action is taken lol. Btw the leader on that video came here making tons of posts on how he is good at nyzul and is full of mad skillz.

I'm still offering 5 umbral marrow to anyone proving me with a video that they won nyzul SE's client and with at least one order lamp floor with 5 lamps.

Good'old FFXI devs, fixing the symptom instead of fixing content. this is just the nth time. I remember the first chocobo diggin and fishing nerfs..

[Luvbunny]

Nothing change as usual... REMOVE the lamps order and we should be fine. As many have said, have everyone touch the lamp, call it a day, fix the problem and no one needs to cheat.

[Arcon]

No one will be banned for dat swaps, as they're client side and undetectable by SE. The only things they could detect would be clippers, if they cared enough to do it.

It's sad to see SE didn't learn a thing. Although not surprising, which is even more sad.

SE missed the point more than the movie Pearl Harbor. And that's an awful lot, girl.

[Frost]

My only beef with the whole thing is finding people that don't cheat.

I don't use dats and I don't want to. I was interested in the event, and proposed several times to start a group that aims for Level 80 Key Items...

But no one is interested in that.

When groups blatantly talk about cheating openly in party chat... I don't go with them again.

I'm for adjusting the difficulty by adding/changing:

1) "Floor jumps" (purchasable?)

2) Lamp adjustments. (The bullshit pause after you correctly solve them needs to go at the very least)

3) Starting the timer on Floor 1 (not the 20 seconds while your screen is black and the 10 seconds before you can move...)

4) The Key Items needed for gear needs to be reduced to 5 instead of 25.

As far as bans?
I know it'd get rid of nearly 100% of the 'problem children' on my server, and that'd be awesome.
Unfortunately it might nail a few good people that were either helping out on what they thought to be a legitimate run that wasn't; or people that went on a run that turned out to be illegitimate, but were too nice to say anything or leave (or did but after the first run).

[Monchat]

No one will be banned for dat swaps, as they're client side and undetectable by SE.

they can probably detect how many people are "lucky" enough to guess lamp order on the first try, and figure out where enemies/lamps etc are within 30s.

[Arcon]

they can probably detect how many people are "lucky" enough to guess lamp order on the first try, and figure out where enemies/lamps etc are within 30s.

If they keep track of that, and it's still no proof, I actually got it right on the first try just this week helping friends reach FL100 on old Nyzul Isle. And dat swaps don't help with finding anything quicker either, only recognizing the lamp order.

[Randwolf]

It won't kill the game for sure, But it would definitely be a body blow to it. I know I'd be quite upset if i logged in missing half of my Friendslists or LS... I'd probably end up quitting.

1) I doubt they can tell who swapped dat's
2) If they can, I hope they give them the hammer
3) If the friends of people who get the hammer feel the need to leave, I'll show them the door

Not feeling pity for anyone who chose friends, or an LS, who are cheaters. The correct response would have been to not do the event and continually complain to S/E until it is fixed. Part of the reason S/E fixes things is they see no one is doing it. Instead, when people cheat, a smaller group complains, because the cheaters don't complain as it is no longer an annoyance, and the event never gets fixed. And, then more people realize that the solution is cheating. So, nothing ever gets fixed and cheating becomes the fallback answer for every broken thing in the game.

[tyrantsyn]

I kind of bail out of the event early.

Did a few run's, was dissatisfied with progress and low end loot. Did a run or two with some ppl using skpe, went better but after that I started seeing shout's that require vent or skpe to do run's. And I'm just not seeing doing an event that requires me to have to do that in order to win. Don't get me wrong, I'm and easy going guy easy to get a long with. And I don't throw fits of rage when someone does something wrong or a group fails in it's task. But that's not every one. I'm not interested in hooking up with 5 other guys/gals who might be that way for an hour or 2 trying to accomplish it. I been on XBL for years and I know how some ppl can get.

So I just figure I'd come back to it once every one got it down to a science with out it. Apparently some one found the easy button and now we have this mess.

[MarkovChain]

All I want to say is : lol. Now poping popcorn for the fix they will bring and the wall of butthurt that will come after (BG).

[MarkovChain]

If they keep track of that, and it's still no proof, I actually got it right on the first try just this week helping friends reach FL100 on old Nyzul Isle. And dat swaps don't help with finding anything quicker either, only recognizing the lamp order.

Yes it's proof if you did it on all your nyzul wins. They could for instance remove the nyzul gear from their invo instead of bans.

[Jomen]

It's fairly infuriating to see this honestly. Imagine a game built on gear collection and battles. Now imagine great pieces of gear that are damn near the BEST gear in the game are available. Now, imagine that no one can even get this gear without the help of movement speed increases and lamp mods.

With all honesty, I have yet to see this event being beaten on a video without the aid of these mods. Why is this? Bad game design. When your users have to cheat to achieve a goal you have put into a game, you have created something incorrectly.

To compare it with something similar, Nyzul Isle original. In this version, you would expect to always walk away with someone even though it was largely luck based. If you didn't get a drop, you'd at least get floor progress and maybe fight a boss. And if you wanted a great piece of gear, you'd end up being able to pick a floor to have chances to get it...although the drop rate was horribad. The only luck would be what kind of floors you'd get. Nyzul isle uncharted takes that same formula and slaps you in the face. Seasoned adventurers with AMAAAAAZING gear walk in and are lucky to make it to floor 19 of 100 before timing out. This has happened to me when i got 2 floor jumps every time. My gear on Sam is crazy and my friends all have 99 relics or perfect enhancing gear. Why did we lose? Not because we weren't skilled but because we got unlucky in a game after we worked so hard to reach a level of teamwork, strategy and general badassness to defeat anything in the world. Except bad floor jumps >.>

This event will die if you do anything short of lowering the amount of tokens needed to get these good pieces. A good group, with embrava and everything, will probably only make it to floor 60 on average and need a billion tokens to get the top tier gear. We can only enter like 3-4 times a day every few days....so how will we deal with this? We won't. Screw Nyzul isle gear even though it's really great.

What the devs should take from this isn't that I'm justifying cheating, but rather that by making a damn near impossible event, you've driven people to start looking for ways to grab the carrot that you're dangling in front of their faces. Also, games like Guild Wars 2 will start stealing people away...because they are listening to their audience....and not putting impossible challenges in front of them and then admonishing them for finding a way to actually succeed in it.

[Karbuncle]

1) I doubt they can tell who swapped dat's
2) If they can, I hope they give them the hammer
3) If the friends of people who get the hammer feel the need to leave, I'll show them the door

Not feeling pity for anyone who chose friends, or an LS, who are cheaters. The correct response would have been to not do the event and continually complain to S/E until it is fixed. Part of the reason S/E fixes things is they see no one is doing it. Instead, when people cheat, a smaller group complains, because the cheaters don't complain as it is no longer an annoyance, and the event never gets fixed. And, then more people realize that the solution is cheating. So, nothing ever gets fixed and cheating becomes the fallback answer for every broken thing in the game.

Then you my friend, are an Ignorant hater. Answer me these questions, And maybe I can change my mind

1) How does them dat swapping, effect your playstyle, or you?
2) IF you can find an Answer to 1, Which I doubt, Why does it make you so angry?
3) If you can answer 2, Which i doubt, Have you realized lately this is a game?

Truth is, most people who dislike the so called "Cheaters", are simply hating just to hate, because their morale standards (Which apparently end at basic human emotion such as compassion) tell them CHEATING IS BAD.

Well, I tend to agree that cheating is in fact bad, Especially when it directly and negatively impacts other gamers, Like Botting at HNMs. But, Nyzul Isle, Is a closed, Instanced event. Them swapping .dats on Lamps is not preventing you from Doing the event, and takes nothing away from your personal experience of the event.

Are you angry they have the pixels before you? If so, Why does it matter? You can just wear it proudly that you may have obtained it without cheating, therefor, your victory is significantly more rewarding in the end. Isn't this game about personal achievements? Why do you care about the achievements of others first? This is as stupid as wanting job Nerfs on Diablo 3.

I'm sorry my friend if i come off rude, But this type of ignorant hatred for anyone cheating and anyone whos friends with cheaters is pure disgusting when it does not effect you in any way. I especially hate the morale Hypocrisy, "Cheaters are bad cause cheating is bad" > "F**k Cheaters and their friends!" - So, Cheating is bad, and therefor you hate it, But condemning cheaters and their friends basically saying good riddens is totally morally acceptable?

You're almost as bad as some of the more extremist Christians, Didn't god teach you hate the Sin, not the sinners? And since is hating the friends of the sinner now an acceptable course of moral action as well?
.
.
All I want to say is : lol. Now poping popcorn for the fix they will bring and the wall of butthurt that will come after (BG).

You're stupider than I thought if you think this will bring any butthurt, considering anyone on BG worth a penny has already gotten their armor. But keep dreaming, I know the only meaning your life has these days is hoping you can find a way to make fun of BG. Good lord. move on already.

[Juilan]

Sorry to bust your bubble, Camate. I know you mean good but all the people that cheated on this and other exploits on Neo-Nyzul have already the gear they wanted.

They couldn't care less...

Again, we do appreciate SE efforts to stop this.

I like your choice in words, "stop" not "fix" as many others have stated the issue with neo nyzul isn't the fact people use 3rd party tools to complete it. The issue is, now I'll say this sample and even give you the kanji and furigana so you can tell it to the devs,

The set up, that involves a russian roulette floor jump system, a timer that starts when people are zoning into the zone because of your company's dial-up like ping system, the need to use a scholar's two hour ability, exclusionary job biases, long empty corridors, floors that require you to not only find objects to activate in an order but to guess the order, and monster families in those empty corridors that can easily kill one person unless assisted by a healer. These amount to a horrible idea that should be put in a video game developer's hall of shame.

ロシアンルーレットの床のジャンプシステムを含むセットまで、人々がいるため、企業のダイヤルアップのpingシステム、学者の二つの時間の能力を使用する必要が、排他的な仕事バイアスのように、長い間のゾーンにゾーニングされたときに起動タイマー空の回廊、あなただけのためにアクティブにすることではなく、ヒーラーの援助を受けない限り、簡単に一人を殺すことができ、これらの空の廊下には順序、およびモンスターの家族を推測するオブジェクトを見つけることができませんする必要が床。恥のビデオゲーム開発者のホールに入れなければならない恐ろしい考えに、これらの量。

Roshianrūretto no yuka no janpu shisutemu o fukumu setto made, hitobito ga iru tame, kigyō no daiyaru appu no pingu shisutemu, gakusha no futatsu no jikan no nōryoku o shiyō suru hitsuyō ga, haita-tekina shigoto baiasu no yō ni, nagaiai no zōn ni zōningu sa reta toki ni kidō taimā Sora no kairō, anata dake no tame ni akutibu ni suru kotode wa naku, hīrā no enjo o ukenai kagiri, kantan ni hitori o korosu koto ga deki, korera no sora no rōka ni wa junjo, oyobi monsutā no kazoku o suisoku suru obujekuto o mitsukeru koto ga dekimasen suru hitsuyō ga yuka. Haji no bideogēmu kaihatsu-sha no hōru ni hairenakereba naranai osoroshī kangae ni, korera no ryō.

[Reiterpallasch]

1) I doubt they can tell who swapped dat's
2) If they can, I hope they give them the hammer
3) If the friends of people who get the hammer feel the need to leave, I'll show them the door
So much mad, and so much more jealousy.

People have been using DAT swaps for various things for years. There are entire online FFXI communities hosting thousands and thousands of player created DATs. And nobody has ever given a shit about it, not even back when people used them to solo the Hagun ENM. That's the same thing as this in a nutshell. Though I guess you're going to suggest that they go back and ban everyone that ever did that too right?

I don't think you understand just how big of an impact your jealousy could potentially have on the game, if they were to listen to people like you and banhammer everyone that has ever used DAT swaps, use windower, or anything else deemed a 'cheat'. You don't even suggest they just take the gear away, you want them removed from the game forever, including their friends.

Your kind won't be happy until they ban every windower user, every DAT swapper, and all associated friends along with it. I hope you enjoy yourself if that day ever comes, because you'll likely be doing it on the only server the game has left.

[Lojinxx]

SE doesn't ban people by hunches, assumptions or coincidences. If the same character claimed an HNM 5 nights in a row he wasn't banned for being a botter even though it seems obvious. Just because you perform an action incredibly well or have amazing luck with a game system I.E. lamps they arent goin to just ban everyone who got all order lamp floors right for the last few weeks or however long. If they implimented something that gave them solid proof of the names being switched in a player's dat then sure they would ban/suspend that person, but it's unlikely this has been done. For christ's sake, you can place a GM call and tell them you're a botter and you won't get banned. They'll tell u that if u want your account deleted you can go cancel the content ID. They work from their own first hand evidence. All you people saying you pity cheaters and look down on people when they aren't even doing anything to harm you should be ashamed of yourselves. It's a videogame and people play for fun. SE made an event with such an awesome set of rewards and dat swaps are such an easy way to bypass the most irritating unnecesary part of the event. They're going to make the lamp names server side. Great. Nobody is going to win the event anymore. I dont condone the clipper and speed hackers because that shit is unnecessary to win, but you can't win without dat swaps if an order floor pops up on your run. Cut and dry. Accept it.

[Randwolf]

So much mad, and so much more jealousy.

Oops, apparently touched a nerve. And, nope. You can try and recast my disgust at cheating, guessing either yours and/or your friends' or shells', as jealousy. But, no, it's simply disgust at people who feel the need to circumvent the rules and then try and justify it by saying "hey, everyone's doing it."

Oh, hang on...nope still just disgust.

p.s. - I've no need to fear the ban hammer. Do you have a need to for yourself or your friends?

[Karbuncle]

His point isn't that "Everyone does it", Its that .dat swaps have been in the game since the beginning, In form of Changing how your weapons look, and so on, so banning everyone who used .dat swaps would likely eradicate more than half the player base, especially if we include those who used it just to change weapon/armor looks.

And since editing Dats is cheating, regardless of the reason in your own words, They would need to be banned as well. Since cheating is cheating and there is no middle ground. This is according to your logic.

[Randwolf]

His point isn't that "Everyone does it", Its that .dat swaps have been in the game since the beginning, In form of Changing how your weapons look, and so on, so banning everyone who used .dat swaps would likely eradicate more than half the player base, especially if we include those who used it just to change weapon/armor looks.

And since editing Dats is cheating, regardless of the reason in your own words, They would need to be banned as well. Since cheating is cheating and there is no middle ground. This is according to your logic.

Well, since I don't hand out ban's, which I'm sure overjoys you, your only concern is that:

1) S/E can tell the difference between a .dat cheat and a .dat appearance modification
2) S/E is okay with the appearance mod

I'm sure S/E will make the judicious choice.

[Reiterpallasch]

p.s. - I've no need to fear the ban hammer. Do you have a need to for yourself or your friends?
What you need to be fearing is the possible implications that your jealousy can cause. I'm saying if they banned anyone that has ever cheated as well as their friends, like you seem to want, it would mean for a very fast death of the game (inb4 FFXI is dying bullshit argument).

[Randwolf]

What you need to be fearing is the possible implications that your jealousy can cause. I'm saying if they banned anyone that has ever cheated as well as their friends, like you seem to want, it would mean for a very fast death of the game (inb4 FFXI is dying bullshit argument).

There is a trick in politics where you take something and try to cast it in the light you wish to, to control the conversation. Most intelligent people see through it, though most people aren't intelligent, as the upcoming presidential election shows. However, constantly trying to change my dislike of cheating into jealousy by stating it over and over, won't make it so. Nice try Mitt (or Obama). Let me know when you stop trying to use that tactic. I'll keep focusing on your tactics until you actually say something that is relevant.

p.s. - Trying to preempt something "(inb4 FFXI is dying bullshit argument)" is another tactic that assumes you can see what is coming and have thus stopped it from occurring.

[Ica]

While I won't comment on your hatred of cheating, your "guilt by association" stance seems a tad... overzealous.

[Nala]

P.S. even banning the friends of cheaters is way too extreme for some one just against cheating, try again.

[Randwolf]

i logged in missing half of my Friendslists or LS... I'd probably end up quitting...


P.S. even banning the friends of cheaters is way too extreme for some one just against cheating, try again.

I never said ban the friends of cheaters. I did however say if you feel the need to leave because your cheating friends got booted, then so be it.


...3) If the friends of people who get the hammer feel the need to leave, I'll show them the door

[Arcon]

But, no, it's simply disgust at people who feel the need to circumvent the rules and then try and justify it by saying "hey, everyone's doing it."

I don't need to justify it, it's a fact that 95% of cheating is not hurting anybody. In fact, you probably wouldn't notice a cheater if you played with one for years, if they didn't mention it. I, on the other hand, used to gear swap like crazy on my PLD and people were always thinking I was using Windower macros or SpellCast, which I wasn't.

Breaking the rules is bad? Why? Why are rules so precious to you? If the rules are ridiculous, breaking them is common sense. What about cheating that doesn't affect gameplay at all? What if someone regrets making a Taru (and let's not kid ourselves, who wouldn't?) and wants to see themselves as a Hume? It's illegal to swap their own character. But how is it affecting anything at all? Not only does it not put anyone else at a disadvantage, it doesn't even give any advantage to their own gameplay. Only to their peace of mind.

Rules are not arbitrary. Rules are supposed to serve a purpose. Following rules for the rules' sake is pointless. Rules should be followed to uphold their purpose, which, in this case, is to maintain game balance. And the balance is not upset by a majority of so-called cheats (not all of them are, actually). Sadly, rules are never perfect. SE likes to prevent people from doing the right thing in the fear of making a bad thing possible, which is, with no exceptions known to me, always the worst possible way to approach an issue. The reason Windower came into existence is that SE feared third party tools and disabled leaving fullscreen mode trying to prevent it. Doing that, they imposed a huge restriction on everyone for the fear of a select few using cheats in an environment which was very competitive at endgame. Endgame, which, was not a concern to a majority of the people, and is even less of an issue now.

I have a question to you, personally. Fittingly, it violates the forum rules. A long time ago in a country far, far away, it used to be the law to report any Jews you could identify (or even suspect) to the authorities. Would you follow them or not?

I know it sounds like a stupid Nazi comparison, but it does serve a purpose as well, because following the rules blindly means you're leaving the judgment of what's right or wrong to them instead of your conscience. And that, good Sir, makes you a dickwad. I believe that's the technical term.

[Draylo]

Simply boils down to the fact that he is jealous and can't stand people getting ahead of him through smarter means. A lot of people are like that sadly.

[Demon6324236]

Simply boils down to the fact that he is jealous and can't stand people getting ahead of him through smarter means. A lot of people are like that sadly.

Cheating to win is not smarter, simply maneuvering around a stupid system. In either case SE is doing things wrong with this event and people arnt happy, some will cheat to circumvent the problems, others wont.

[Raksha]

Oops, apparently touched a nerve. And, nope. You can try and recast my disgust at cheating, guessing either yours and/or your friends' or shells', as jealousy. But, no, it's simply disgust at people who feel the need to circumvent the rules and then try and justify it by saying "hey, everyone's doing it."

Oh, hang on...nope still just disgust.

p.s. - I've no need to fear the ban hammer. Do you have a need to for yourself or your friends?


Did we find Starcade's new sock?

[SpankWustler]

This debate is about as fruitful now as it was when people were discussing the Salvage issue.

If I step on the grass by the "Do not walk on the grass!" sign, I am prepared to be sprayed with the hose. I know that's the most banal rule ever made but I also know that I'm not the one holding that hose. If your eyeliner might run or your jeans might shrink, it is best to keep in mind that crotchety old groundskeepers don't share the morality of you and I before toe touches Bermuda.

On the other hand, I take a lot of comfort in knowing the borderline autistics who will inevitably pop up and shout, "Rules are sacred things! They should put sharpened, poisoned, rusty, flaming, acid-filled, HIV+ bear-traps on the grass instead of just using the hose!" will someday die totally alone while counting the ceiling tiles in a Hospice facility and not even understand how profoundly sad that is.


Did we find Starcade's new sock?

I should hope so. The old one had Debbie Gibson's face crudely drawn on it in sharpie and a layer of crustiness thick enough to function as a skeletal system.

Actually, I don't think Starcade would make a sock account. That's probably against the rules, and if it is, he would have to...I don't even know...flay off half of his skin to atone for it. That guy is so nuts for pudding that I really see him as one-of-a-kind within the FFXI community. Crazy beyond compare. Also beyond help, probably...sadly.

[Ragmar]

If bans are issued I hope they ban for Windower/Spellcast as well as they are the same level cheat. I personally know of several players on Phoenix who were only temp banned for like 5 days after being cought using clipper to speed through uncharted becoming some of the first 15/15. Half of these players had previous temp bans for clipper so SE really needs to decide to either enforce or not enforce.

[Reiterpallasch]

If bans are issued I hope they ban for Windower/Spellcast as well as they are the same level cheat. I personally know of several players on Phoenix who were only temp banned for like 5 days after being cought using clipper to speed through uncharted becoming some of the first 15/15. Half of these players had previous temp bans for clipper so SE really needs to decide to either enforce or not enforce.
Windowers most basic function (being able to alt/tab without crashing), is in no way shape or form even remotely close to things that let you run at flee speed and through walls.

[Karbuncle]

This thread is shriiinking

[Kitkat]

I've sat back and watched how this thread has slowly began to mutate into some sort of mud flinging fiasco between various positions. Some on one side of the fence, some on the other side, and some on the fence, but that is primarily due to everyone pointing fingers at other things. Obviously it is easier to displace and dilute the primary reason this is even happening.

A.) Significant flaw in viable progression method exists in an event. By happenstance or by underhanded application of other tools the progression method is made nearly moot. In the case of NIU players took a once harmless, though previously abused, alteration method to the game in order to turn Lamp floors from frustrating time sinks into nearly benign floors. Doesn't matter that they swapped out a file, or opened file in a hex editor to change the name, because "people have been using dat mods since back in the day."

Flawed argument being as, prior to abuse methods, dat swaps didn't affect anyone because it didn't alter the way the game played. It offered no one anything other than an aesthetic change. If they swapped an ugly body for one they desired, it didn't give them that bodies stats. If they turned their ugly carrion crab pet into a magikarp, it didn't alter how the game behaved. Now you have someone using dat modding methods that actually affect how the game was meant to be played by circumventing how the system is meant to function. If you don't know what that means: This means that by using a dat that visually, physically, or in any way tells you the exact order in which the lamp must be pressed to progress you have crossed the line between "Harmless dat mod" and "Harmful dat mod" because you have altered the way the game was meant to be played in order to gain an unfair advantage over those who can't or don't use this method.

Circumventing the system doesn't make you a better, smarter, more efficient player. That was the same excuse slavage exploit users gave when SE announced they had banned players for abuse of the exploit. They had gained an unfair advantage that was not meant to occur in the first place. Here you have the same thing happening all over again and those who use it or had planned to use it are stating that this is a mistake, it is harmless, etc. How is it a mistake? Because it was caught? How is it harmless? Because any PC user can use it to gain the unfair advantage? What about the console players? Oh, that's right they can rely on the PC users who abuse this....obviously that makes it ok, right? Wrong, it doesn't because it still circumvents the system. It's common sense, not rocket science. You cheat, you get caught, you should have understood the consequence before you resorted to the action.

Had more to add to this but I need to get to work. Half expect some one to get butthurt over common sense being pointed out and throw out the white knight card. If that is your plan, try not to be too full of yourself when you do it cause this has nothing to do with white knight logic, it is just simple common sense.

[Enochroot]

Granted, I haven't followed this thread THAT closely, but I'll chime in to remind everyone that SE doesn't need a reason to nuke your account and they never have. If they look at the logs and see a suspiciously high percentage of order floors being passed on the first attempt... well, obvious, yeah? Regardless of the how's and why's. That's that.

The Nyzul Uncharted event may be flawed (as Salvage was, as evidenced by the increased drop rate) - but I can't really speak to that as I've personally never attempted it. A big reason for my apprehension in even making an attempt is that people who I view as better, more hardcore players than myself have struggled with it. I hear the stories of needing SCHx2 and emp/relic/mythic weapon DD's having a tough time and that dissuades me from devoting time to an attempt when there are other areas/aspects of the game that I can be focusing on to better my character.

Make what you will of all that, with regards to SE's motives in dealing with this "problem."

[Ragmar]

Windowers most basic function (being able to alt/tab without crashing), is in no way shape or form even remotely close to things that let you run at flee speed and through walls.

That isn't all you get when you download windower. Macro's, Distance, party TP/MP, fillmode, yarnball, recast, and lots of other little things. No its not clipper but acting like its so you can "alt/tab without crashing" is a joke. You just happen to think your cheating isnt cheating but changing the name of a NPC in game is. Fact is they both are and SE needs to either decide to enforce it or not.

I honestly can't see them doing anything punative since they 5 day ban people they catch flee hacking (even those with previous suspensions for third party TOS violations) which is usually one of the worst violations in their eyes.

[Seha]

Nyzul Investigation was one of my favourite events, I loved it.
Nyzul Uncharted is stupid.
There were so many other ways it could be done..like saving progress every 10 floors and resetting at 100, or making so all astrariums could be traded for HQ gear(granted in the proper amounts depending on floor), etc...but nope, they had to be "original" and screwed up.
Will you ever hire a battle development team that knows wtf they're doing? Yes people asked for events requiring skill, but this is another luck based event, it is not fair, it is not what people wanted and your way of solving the issue won't solve a damn at all.

[Monchat]

The Nyzul Uncharted event may be flawed (as Salvage was, as evidenced by the increased drop rate) - but I can't really speak to that as I've personally never attempted it.

there has always been a misconception that salvage drop rates were bad. This rumor came from people who did the event only casually (once or twice a week) and very unlucky players . There were bad days and good days, bad series and lucky series, in the end it all averaged if you did every day, and salvage was meant to be a casual event to do by /shouts every day. NMs had 5%~10% drop rate, and zones had many NMs. On average my group was getting 2-3 lvl 35 per week going 5 run a week.

Also salvage cheats are different from nyzul cheats: for salvage only a very small minority of cheaters that formed a hermetic group (= the HNM botters basically) knew it and kept it secret till the end (the number of accounts banned was very small, like 1000 or something). Most of the salvage gear (95%+) was gotten the intended way. Here in the case of Nyzul its obviously 95%+ of the gear was acquired through cheats lol. 1 week after the stopper implementation only, jeuno was filled with multiple pieces characters.

[Soidisant]

Btw the leader on that video came here making tons of posts on how he is good at nyzul and is full of mad skillz.



In this topic

Tons = 2 posts. (EDIT: Sorry 3 posts)
Being good at Nyzul and having mad skillz = being smart enough to run to the nearest mob your teammate isn't on and hitting it whilst embrava'ed.

My group was competent. Nothing more, nothing less. As you would expect after 7-10 years of playing for each member. I said 'remotely good' which hardly suggests outstanding skills and I wasn't even talking about our group in particular. There was certainly people on BG who had higher success rates than us.

If you're going to take a dig at me, at least make it valid. Christ, I make enough ****ish posts on the internet for people not to have to resort to outright lying.

[Reiterpallasch]

That isn't all you get when you download windower. Macro's, Distance, party TP/MP, fillmode, yarnball, recast, and lots of other little things.
Those also aren't the basic functions, those are additional plugins that you don't need to use.

[wish12oz]

About windower basic functions: I think my favorite one is the one where if your wireless controller hooked up to your PC shuts off, or if your plugged in controlled gets unplugged for a second, you dont have to shutdown FFXI and then turn it back on to use the controller again. It would be nice if SE would copy this for FFXI and FFXIV.



I have a question to you, personally. Fittingly, it violates the forum rules. A long time ago in a country far, far away, it used to be the law to report any Jews you could identify (or even suspect) to the authorities. Would you follow them or not?.

I lol'd, this is one of the best posts ever, totally gonna remember it to use later!

[seallux]

Nyzul Investigation was one of my favourite events, I loved it.
Nyzul Uncharted is stupid.
There were so many other ways it could be done..like saving progress every 10 floors and resetting at 100, or making so all astrariums could be traded for HQ gear(granted in the proper amounts depending on floor), etc...but nope, they had to be "original" and screwed up.
Will you ever hire a battle development team that knows wtf they're doing? Yes people asked for events requiring skill, but this is another luck based event, it is not fair, it is not what people wanted and your way of solving the issue won't solve a damn at all.

Finally a post. no a thread that has everyone on the same page yes we all asked for a challenging Arena or Battle system for us to get 1 of the best gears but seriously square enix just make it challenging in sense takes skill not luck.
Luck based fights aren't skill full and it just pisses off the FFXI community as you see the whole thread is pissed at your Team Decision to make new Events "Luck" Based no one likes that kind of thing if it is there make less noticeable that's all we ask as a player base community.

[Malthar]

Ok, we got to neo Nyzul F100, completely legit (no order lamps!!!) with 3 min to kill boss. The only problem was that we had ws's and smn magic restricted. Complete bs.

[FrankReynolds]

Greetings!

We recently confirmed that there is a bug for Nyzul Isle assault where users are able to know the order of lamps via the usage of unintended exploits.

The development team is currently working to fix this as soon as possible, but please keep in mind that using third-party tools or any form of game exploit usage will not be tolerated and that we are continuously keeping track and dealing with this issue.

Finally, if you are aware of players possibly using exploits, we urge you to make a report to the Special Task Force (http://support.na.square-enix.com/contacttop.php?id=20&la=1) to help facilitate our investigation.

I will not be reporting cheaters. I don't give a crap about cheaters. I want events that don't suck. Your just making the event suck for the few people that could actually do it, when you should be making the event good for the people who can't.

[Soidisant]

Can you get 2 Pathos restrictions on the same floor if Gears aren't present? I've only ever seen 1 randomly assigned and then additional ones on that floor if you kill/aggro a gear when you're not supposed to.

WS restriction on 100 is a killer though, that's bad luck for your group =/

We had White Magic restricted once on 100 but it wasn't as bad as you would think (No, not stealth bragging. Embrava and Fanatics usually mean you live long enough for it not to matter). I imagine WS'es would be far, far worse just judging from how long it takes to kill lower floor bosses when WS'es are restricted. Or if you get it on something like an All / Spec Fam with Amorphs/Puddings.

[Ragmar]

Those also aren't the basic functions, those are additional plugins that you don't need to use.

Right people download the non SE approved version to not use these things. Fact is you simply want to think your cheating is ok but that others cheating with other programs isn't because you don't use those other programs. It's normal mind you but flawed none the less. Also you don't "need" to use windower at all as myself and many other PS2 players have done without it for years. I do play on PC as well.

[saevel]

Can you get 2 Pathos restrictions on the same floor if Gears aren't present? I've only ever seen 1 randomly assigned and then additional ones on that floor if you kill/aggro a gear when you're not supposed to.

WS restriction on 100 is a killer though, that's bad luck for your group =/

We had White Magic restricted once on 100 but it wasn't as bad as you would think (No, not stealth bragging. Embrava and Fanatics usually mean you live long enough for it not to matter). I imagine WS'es would be far, far worse just judging from how long it takes to kill lower floor bosses when WS'es are restricted. Or if you get it on something like an All / Spec Fam with Amorphs/Puddings.

Having a BLU/WAR along fixes that for the most part. WS restriction on floor 100 could still be an issue if your tight on time. WS restriction doesn't stop BLU physical spells from doing what they do.

Also the person above is lying. You can't get more then one pathos per floor.

[kyomi]

I will not be reporting cheaters. I don't give a crap about cheaters. I want events that don't suck. Your just making the event suck for the few people that could actually do it, when you should be making the event good for the people who can't.

Can't do that if the data suggests there is nothing in need of fixing because people are fluffing it with unreliable data showing it isn't that hard because they remove an unknown variable turning it into a constant known value (ie: remove the random order of lamps via dat swaps making it a known order). There are people who complete the event through legit means so this only makes it harder to do so, but not impossible.

[MarkovChain]

Honestly SE is playing on our nerves, acting like they are discovering name changing only now, when there has been 4 or 5 threads complaining about this in the past months. Now they pretend it's a bug ? Initially they probably meant nyzul to only be given to a few couple of people, alla salvage gear back in the day. But they pathetically failed by introducing a pure luck factor. The playerbase would be a lot less raging if they had done normal nyzul with the usual saving of progression but with a supersmall droprate instead. The situation of nyzul right now is the following :

* NI 2.0 was 10x harder to clear before the stopper patch, and they actually expected you to reach it (it was nigh impossible even with cheats)
* They introduced stopped, but it's still random as hell and there is no way you can win unless super luck (basically 12 or 13 jumps with +7 to +9).
* everyone cheats. Noone wins without most of their members doing dat swaps.

I'm sure they can't change the floor system without redisigning the event completely. SE's only choice is to revamp it into a much nicer/less random progression with low droprates.

I've suggested it in other thread but i'll reiterate my suggestion :

@ SE devs :

1) record all F100 nyzul wins since release.
2) out of those wins, check how many of those runs had a lamp order floor.
3) examine the % of those runs where people went 1/1 on guessing lamps.

If you don't find 99%+ or more plese let me now.

[saevel]

Can't do that if the data suggests there is nothing in need of fixing because people are fluffing it with unreliable data showing it isn't that hard because they remove an unknown variable turning it into a constant known value (ie: remove the random order of lamps via dat swaps making it a known order). There are people who complete the event through legit means so this only makes it harder to do so, but not impossible.

Complete BS. SE knows exactly how *hard* this is. They programmed in the randomness, they know that floor 100 isn't going to be reached but once out of thirty to forty runs (completely legitimately). They introduced all the "screw yous" that ruin your runs, things like WS restriction is just the blatant ones. You have the ridiculously large floor layouts that one 1 random lamp or enemy a good 30~60+ second run from the start, all sorts of NMs to screw with you and then the infamous lamps. Not only must a "vanilla" group make it to 100, they must do so with a low number of jumps and minimal number of "screw yous" from SE.

SE knows this, their not going to make it any easier. They don't want people 15/15, they want you 1/5 after four months. They want you still doing Nyzule Isle for gear in 2014. Just like Voidwatch, just like Legion.

[kyomi]

Never said it wasn't hard saevel, only that it wasn't impossible. Don't over blow what I said.

[FrankReynolds]

Can't do that if the data suggests there is nothing in need of fixing because people are fluffing it with unreliable data showing it isn't that hard because they remove an unknown variable turning it into a constant known value (ie: remove the random order of lamps via dat swaps making it a known order). There are people who complete the event through legit means so this only makes it harder to do so, but not impossible.

They know exactly how many people are cheating. Don't let their feigned innocence fool you. They didn't budget time to apply any major fixes to Nyzul Isle after it was released, and now it needs to be fixed but they have no time to do it, so they are putting a band-aid on the bullet wound. It's apathy towards paying customers and to the benefit of people who cheat.We shouldn't even be concerned about whether people cheat. We should be concerned about why the content was designed in such a poor state that people who cheat get to shit all over our experience. People will always cheat no matter how much they threaten to ban, or screw with the game to stop them. The only options are too either make a game where people can cheat, but it doesn't affect other peoples quality of game, or (the SE way) make the game however the hell you want, and then bullshit the public as if you care. Something tells me that forum reps get paid far less than game designers, so guess which option they chose. They chose "Let's send some forum reps out to make PR Posts.".

[Kitkat]

Can't do that if the data suggests there is nothing in need of fixing because people are fluffing it with unreliable data showing it isn't that hard because they remove an unknown variable turning it into a constant known value (ie: remove the random order of lamps via dat swaps making it a known order). There are people who complete the event through legit means so this only makes it harder to do so, but not impossible.

Think by "fluffing the data" Kyomi means that they are making it where SE can't reliably establish how difficult it is for even well geared players without doing the following:



I've suggested it in other thread but i'll reiterate my suggestion :

@ SE devs :

1) record all F100 nyzul wins since release.
2) out of those wins, check how many of those runs had a lamp order floor.
3) examine the % of those runs where people went 1/1 on guessing lamps.

If you don't find 99%+ or more plese let me now.

I know that NIU isn't impossible as I know a couple groups who complete it under legit means, but they also run into many of the issues that make it extremely difficult to complete. This is the core data that needs to be recorded along with all the rest without the issue of altered/fluff data making it seem perfectly viable on an acceptable scale to complete NIU. This is how using the dat swaps becomes harmful and creates "victims" because it relays the message that the difficulty is sufficiently acceptable and requires no further changes.

With dat swaps you have:
Possible pathos restrictions (one of largest time killers based on pathos and floor you get it on)
Kill all floors (2nd largest time killer depending on number of mobs/NM type)
Kill spec family. (tied 3rd with don't be discovered by gears)
Kill Spec enemy. (negligible, you kill one mob)
Kill boss. (not a major time killer as most can be disposed of in less than a 1-3 minutes of being engaged)
Always known lamp order floors (removes a percentage of the difficulty by a fair amount since this is one of two largest time killers in the entire event; one floor can literally destroy 5min or more)
Lamp register. (negligible, you all click one lamp)
Don't be discovered by gears. (3rd due to possible penalty of time loss if aggro or locking of WS/Spells)
Don't destroy gears. (negligible, not hard to not kill)
Random floor skip of 3~12 (Primary time killer if unlucky)

So, when you fluff data on one of the biggest time killers in the entire event you relay the message to developers that there is no further need to adjust the difficulty because X amount of players are already 5/15~15/15 in only the space of a month or two. Look how long it took for SE to admit there was a significant issue with distribution of VW drops because people with the items were getting them multiple times and could not give them to other players. Granted this is still an issue with a handful of the desired items, but no longer with some of the most desired items (HQ weapons, Most bodies), not to mention adjustments to AOE damage taken to players without primary hate, etc. VW is much easier and distribution of the items has increased due to data collection and feedback via the community, but it took time to do so.

Applying it to NIU becomes problematic when you can't prove via data that the successful progress made by the community is extremely low when cheaters fluff the data by showing that it isn't extremely low. Every run they are getting 1 promised drop of choice, and up to 3 additional random by completing floor 100 at greater than 50% of the runs cause they spend less than 1 minute on lamp floors. If they get multiple lamp floors this can make the run fairly smooth since they can always get the right order every time. What this says to developers is that they made it just right and no further tweaks are necessary because groups who do the event regularly are making acceptable progress when that isn't the case when played legitimately.

@Frank
When you look at the gear and the difficulty to achieve it while comparing it to the low drop rate of even VW gear/abj which is up on the same level of desirability it does make sense that it isn't easy to accomplish. However, allowing cheaters free reign to do as they please because it seemingly "hurts no one else" is no better a fix than stopping/reprimanding the cheaters after being caught. The cheaters will then do 1 of 2 things, stop doing the event because they got what they want, or turn around and turn it into a cash cow because other players can't cheat, or don't have the resource/time to do the event. Already see groups shout for it on my server and charge upwards of 10-15mil per piece of gear. So no, I don't see any viable reason to just "leave the cheaters to cheat" because it has too many noticeable affects on the community when one takes the time to look beyond themselves to see it.

[Demon6324236]

Right people download the non SE approved version to not use these things. Fact is you simply want to think your cheating is ok but that others cheating with other programs isn't because you don't use those other programs. It's normal mind you but flawed none the less. Also you don't "need" to use windower at all as myself and many other PS2 players have done without it for years. I do play on PC as well.

Sorry to disappoint you but I removed every single plugging from Windower the day I downloaded it because I found many parts of it annoying. Only thing I wanted, 1 macro to do my swaps for RDM because I refused to keep hitting 3 every single time I wanted to do something. If you think the main reason people use Windower is because they are all evil cheating assholes, look again. Alot of players who use it use it only because they want better macros yet time and time again SE says no, so we make due with what we can.

[Karbuncle]

Also if i'm not mistaken, Windower itself is said to run at a better standard FPS than the SE Windower, Which can cause a bit of lag easier.

I just vaguely remember hearing about it.

Edit: P.S - Its really not worth wasting your breath arguing with people who demonize windower, People who think Windower is the source of the Devils magic are usually Starcade-level, It'll be like arguing with an impenetrable brick wall of hate.

[Kitkat]

That is primarily due to the official windower being coded to constantly prioritize the process to "low" even if you go into task manager and change it to normal or high. Unofficial windower on the other hand doesn't do this. It defaults as a normal priority and will not change that even if you go in and change it to low or high. So on official windower when the most menial task starts up with a higher process priority it'll divert resources to that process over windower causing client lag.

[Natenn]

Removing lamp order would make nyzul too easy, maby just limit the # of times you can get an order floor to 1 or 2?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Removing lamp order would make nyzul too easy, maby just limit the # of times you can get an order floor to 1 or 2?

It really wouldn't. By removing it you stand another chance of all enemies, leaders, family etc... It does however remove a floor that should NOT be in something restricted to 30 minutes with so many random rules in play.

Removing the lamp order floor evens it up among all players. The only other cheat (flee hacks) SE could easily detect if they wanted.

[Natenn]

make it 40-45m per run? ive failed so many times and only needed literally between 30s and a few more minutes. one time i did get retardedly lucky floor jumps and was on F87 with 10m left.

[Komori]

Making it 35~45 minutes would probably ease all the problems. Basically there's no major difference between the two Nyzuls as far as format goes.

But NIU got the monsters boosted which take longer to kill but you still have the same time limit for it.

[Natenn]

And where the youtube video of anne cheating? someone post link or tell what thread to look in

[Soidisant]

She deleted her youtube account because she got fed-up with the comments which were verging on harassment imo. It's understandable considering she quit a while back. She's always been fairly reserved/shy and has never has been one for confrontation.

[Lojinxx]

All you people attacking windower are sooo off base. Be thankful Windower came out. It's very likely this game would be dead without it. Also, there's this saying that if you bite your tongue about an issue you condone it. This holds very true when it comes to SE's response to windower. They've never spoken negatively about it or to the creators to ask them to stop it. The only thing Windower has ever done is set an example to SE of what the player base wants out of the game. I love windower like 90% of the people thatt play. And of course I won't get banned for using software that SE Is mimicing and implementing in the near future. Get real...

[Daniel_Hatcher]

She deleted her youtube account because she got fed-up with the comments which were verging on harassment imo. It's understandable considering she quit a while back. She's always been fairly reserved/shy and has never has been one for confrontation.

The joy of cheaters when their cheats are taken away.

[Zirael]

The joy of cheaters when their cheats are taken away.
Haters Hate Harder

[Reiterpallasch]

The joy of cheaters when their cheats are taken away.
If they ever invent a way to punch people through the internet, you'll be my first target. Did you even read wtf she wrote?

[Malthar]

I'd like to reiterate that we did get two pathos on floor 100. Yes, it surprised me too. I also didn't think you could get two pathos on a floor, but there it was; restricted weaponskills and restricted summoning magic. I know I'm not imagining this because I scrolled up and saw it because my weaponskills weren't working.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

If they ever invent a way to punch people through the internet, you'll be my first target. Did you even read wtf she wrote?

She removed it because cheaters harassed her for being the reason the Japanese got their "fix"

[Soidisant]

It was mainly anti-DAT editting people who were doing it but there's no real way of knowing if that was their true stance or just the easiest way to vent.

[saevel]

Never said it wasn't hard saevel, only that it wasn't impossible. Don't over blow what I said.

You said that those using secret ninja magic were preventing SE from "making it easier". This is BS, SE won't be making it "easier", they don't want it "easier", they want you to still be working on your gear in 2014.

"If those cheaters didn't get their reward, then SE would reevaluate the situation and give us non-cheaters the reward instead" is what your argument boils down to. We know from the past that this is BS, SE won't make this "easier" until they have new content to attract you with. Looking at the stats of the gear involved, it's obvious that SE intended NNI gear to be super-restricted in availability.

[Zirael]

I'd like to reiterate that we did get two pathos on floor 100. Yes, it surprised me too. I also didn't think you could get two pathos on a floor, but there it was; restricted weaponskills and restricted summoning magic. I know I'm not imagining this because I scrolled up and saw it because my weaponskills weren't working.
Not to bash you, but did you care to take screenshot?

[Demon6324236]

You said that those using secret ninja magic were preventing SE from "making it easier". This is BS, SE won't be making it "easier", they don't want it "easier", they want you to still be working on your gear in 2014.

"If those cheaters didn't get their reward, then SE would reevaluate the situation and give us non-cheaters the reward instead" is what your argument boils down to. We know from the past that this is BS, SE won't make this "easier" until they have new content to attract you with. Looking at the stats of the gear involved, it's obvious that SE intended NNI gear to be super-restricted in availability.

Let me rephrase what I think is being said. If you look at data currently, you will see alot of people win this event. If you look at data without cheaters, very few people are actually completeing the event. In other words SE can not get accurate data on success rates for this event due to cheaters so even if the need to make it easier is great enough they would do it they can not see it because they are blinded by the cheaters making the win rate 50 times higher than it should be.

For example, if 1 in 100 runs are wins, and their goal is 1 in 10 runs, they are going to be bad, and SE would change it. But because of cheaters the win rate is at 1 in 20 so far as SE can see, and thats not to big of a jump in their eyes, so they don't mind, and leave it be. Now if they remove the cheaters or the ability to cheat then get accurate data based on the win rates without the tainted win/loss ratio they can assume if the event is working properly or not, and correct it accordingly.

[Xantavia]

You said that those using secret ninja magic were preventing SE from "making it easier". This is BS, SE won't be making it "easier", they don't want it "easier", they want you to still be working on your gear in 2014.

"If those cheaters didn't get their reward, then SE would reevaluate the situation and give us non-cheaters the reward instead" is what your argument boils down to. We know from the past that this is BS, SE won't make this "easier" until they have new content to attract you with. Looking at the stats of the gear involved, it's obvious that SE intended NNI gear to be super-restricted in availability.
Really, isn't this what they kinda did with Walk of Echoes? Nobody doing the event, they kept making adjustments, and now more people do. If NIU was dead within the first week, I think more than just a stopper would have been implemented.

[Nala]

Or they may do nothing at all considering how good the gear is and their normal mentality towards player acquisition, getting floor 100 was probably meant to be a 1/100 occurrence (or at least having enough time to win at floor 100) i still subscribe to the evil genie theory when it comes to anything FFXI related and SE.

I only base that on how many other other things that need to be or very well ought to be adjusted and are still ignored in favor of balance or w/e made up limitations they choose for excuses, example macros: why? because thats why. my least favorite answer of any reasoning... because...? because F U thats why.

[Malthar]

With 3.5 min left and ws's restricted, taking a screenshot wasn't the first thing on my mind. lol

[Raksha]

With 3.5 min left and ws's restricted, taking a screenshot wasn't the first thing on my mind. lol

Are you sure one of them wasn't a pathos wearing off from the previous floor?

[kyomi]

You said that those using secret ninja magic were preventing SE from "making it easier". This is BS, SE won't be making it "easier", they don't want it "easier", they want you to still be working on your gear in 2014.

"If those cheaters didn't get their reward, then SE would reevaluate the situation and give us non-cheaters the reward instead" is what your argument boils down to. We know from the past that this is BS, SE won't make this "easier" until they have new content to attract you with. Looking at the stats of the gear involved, it's obvious that SE intended NNI gear to be super-restricted in availability.

You pretty much only gleened what applied to your reasoning from what I said. The fact of the matter doesn't change when you have cheaters supplying inaccurate data about success rate compared to projected success rates or intended success rates. They have made adjustments after the fact on several events and are still making adjustments (this update for example altered difficulty of legion by restricting roam area of mobs creating a safe zone and the ability to re-enter zone if ejected fo all members ko). Thus I do not buy your powdered reasoning as fact given the actual fact so many have only completed their gear through illegitimate means. I can attest to the fact that reaching floor 80 is far more likely and a more timely path to the gear, but reaching 100 is still possible giving you instantly a gear of choice and up to 3 random gears when won.

[Kitkat]

You pretty much.......when won.

I forsee the "you're profile says lvl 1, why should I believe you" card coming up, and also I'll tell you now that arguing with saveal is like telling a brick wall it is actually drywall. By this I mean it is rather pointless to prove your view as his is set in stone and immovable no matter the reasoning provided. Not saying I disagree with what you say, just letting you know that Saveal is more a waste of effort to argue with than it is worth.

[Malthar]

There were no pathos from the previous floor. I know what I saw.

[Reiterpallasch]

There were no pathos from the previous floor. I know what I saw.
We also know what we saw, which is nothing in this case.

[Soidisant]

If you got 2 Pathos and it was indeed a boss floor, not a floor with gears on, then I'd report it as a bug. It flies in the face of everything we know and have seen in Nyzul. I've certainly never seen or heard of it happening outside of aggroing/killing gears when you're not supposed to.

[Phupafighters]

As others have stated, fix order lamps to either have labels on them already, reduce the amount of people required (example instead of 5 people max, make it 3), and or remove the lag after you complete the objective and the cooldown upon a failed attempt. We have to clear what is it? A minimum of 18-20 floors to get a floor 100 win, and with all the other random things in the event, it is still a low % of win WITHOUT cheats or order lamps as is. Order lamps kill your run if you don't use dat swap. I don't think it's fair that we have to lose an event based on a random lamp order that requires absolutely no skill. Once you put the new "bug" fix in, this event will die. And you won't fix it for another 3 months atleast and then other content will come out making this gear probably useless. You could also reduce the amount of floor 80 wins from say 25 to 15 or 10. That's still 10-15 days to obtain ONE piece of armor and 80 is still a decent objective for non cheaters.

[Malthar]

And you know what? The fact that we got two pathos on F100 wasn't my point. My report got thrown completely off topic. The main thread that I wanted to illuminate was that we got to F100 and that was because we got no order lamps. So, it is possible to reach F100 without cheating, but you have to be extremely lucky with jumps and absolutely no order lamps.

[Ragmar]

Sorry to disappoint you but I removed every single plugging from Windower the day I downloaded it because I found many parts of it annoying. Only thing I wanted, 1 macro to do my swaps for RDM because I refused to keep hitting 3 every single time I wanted to do something. If you think the main reason people use Windower is because they are all evil cheating assholes, look again. Alot of players who use it use it only because they want better macros yet time and time again SE says no, so we make due with what we can.

So you wanted something SE has repeatedly said NO to but because you wanted it you chose to use a third party application to have it and you don't define this as cheating because well... you wanted it. Making due would be making good 6 line macro's as SE intended the game to be played with, instead you opted for a THIRD PARTY PROGRAM yet you have an issue with people who dat swapped even though they did it for the same reasons you did. People complained the event was failed just as you complained macros were failed. SE said working as intended so you downloaded windower and they swapped dats. You can't excuse your cheating because you feel its justified and then chastize others because you feel it isn't. I'm not saying windower is evil either btw but its the same level cheat as dat swapping as neither effect the rest of the player base except to cause umadness everywhere.

[Demon6324236]

You see your logic fails because I am using 1 macro to do what 3~6 macros would be needed to do, I am simply saving myself the finger stress by hitting only 1. In the game it is very possible for me to do those same actions, simply by hitting more buttons, taking more time, wasting more space on my macro list, and in general causing myself more pain on my hands.

Now, looking at people who .dat swap. When doing this you get numbers that allow you the info on which lamp is what in the order. No matter what you do in game this is not actually possible. You can never see the number for the lamps any way except by performing this act.

See, when you do macros, macros are macros, at the end of the day Windower or not they can perform the same actions, you simply need use more of them for the same thing if you are not using Windower. Dat swapping however is only possible outside of the game, nothing in game can cause it, thus making it unfair.

[Ragmar]

You see your logic fails because I am using 1 macro to do what 3~6 macros would be needed to do, I am simply saving myself the finger stress by hitting only 1. In the game it is very possible for me to do those same actions, simply by hitting more buttons, taking more time, wasting more space on my macro list, and in general causing myself more pain on my hands.

Now, looking at people who .dat swap. When doing this you get numbers that allow you the info on which lamp is what in the order. No matter what you do in game this is not actually possible. You can never see the number for the lamps any way except by performing this act.

See, when you do macros, macros are macros, at the end of the day Windower or not they can perform the same actions, you simply need use more of them for the same thing if you are not using Windower. Dat swapping however is only possible outside of the game, nothing in game can cause it, thus making it unfair.

Again you're simply trying to justify the third party app you use. You can find out the order in game simply by trying combo's this just saves you time exactly like hitting one macro vs 3 to complete an action. At the end of the day dat swapped or not they perform the same actions, you simply need to hit more of them for the same thing if you are not using swapped dats. Swapping every piece of gear in an instant however is only possible outside of the game, nothing in game can cause it, thus making it unfair. Can attempt to justify it all you want to feel better about yourself but its the same thing.

[Demon6324236]

Again, 1 can be done in game, 1 can not be done in game. The 1 that can be done in game is only a time saver. The one that can not be done in game is cheating via giving you an unfair advantage by knowing something you would not know otherwise. I gain nothing from using 1 macro for 16 actions other than less pain for my hands and half a second of time. Where as with dats you gain knowledge of which lamps are what number, letting you save alot of time and potentially win an event you would have otherwise lost.

[Ragmar]

Again, 1 can be done in game, 1 can not be done in game. The 1 that can be done in game is only a time saver. The one that can not be done in game is cheating via giving you an unfair advantage by knowing something you would not know otherwise. I gain nothing from using 1 macro for 16 actions other than less pain for my hands and half a second of time. Where as with dats you gain knowledge of which lamps are what number, letting you save alot of time and potentially win an event you would have otherwise lost.

All either do is save you time, both can be done in game and their respective programs simply save you time. Im not a math major here but lets see dat swaps save you like 2 min on average. How much time do you think during the same 30 min event windower macros are saving you? I'd bet money you're saving yourself over 2 minutes of wait times and button mashing macro after macro. I played on PS2 for 7 years I know how bad the in game macro system is. You simply keep trying to justify your choice of third party tools. Fact is fact both violate the ToS and are cheating because of it. I hardly expect you to understand because if you already cant you simply arent capable. 1+1=2 no matter how many times you wanna say 1+1=3.

[Demon6324236]

Yes I am incapable of understanding how the 2 are the same, they are the same in black and white, but not when you look at them in detail.

[Ragmar]

Yes I am incapable of understanding how the 2 are the same, they are the same in black and white, but not when you look at them in detail.

Because for you one is acceptable and one is not. If SE wanted you to have windower type macros they would be the in game macros. You use a third party tool which violates the TOS regardless of how you feel about it. SE has heard the begging yet they still say no new macros so you download a third party tool to circumvent designed game play yet you refuse to accept this is cheating because you are ok with it. Thats what you cant comprehend.

[Reiterpallasch]

So people use 3rd party programs to have more than 6 macro lines. Who gives a flying fuck?

[Ragmar]

So people use 3rd party programs to have more than 6 macro lines. Who gives a flying fuck?

So people use 3rd party programs to make an event easier to win. Who gives a flying ****?

[Reiterpallasch]

So people use 3rd party programs to make an event easier to win. Who gives a flying ****?
Precisely :)

[FrankReynolds]

Yes I am incapable of understanding how the 2 are the same, they are the same in black and white, but not when you look at them in detail.

This is from another thread, but it applies here fully, so enjoy:



Take Waltzes, for instance. The largest benefit of Waltzes over Cures (back when they were actually used) was that Waltzes are a close approximation of instant and cures take time. However, it takes time to swap to Waltz Potency equipment using in-game macros before using your Waltz and this really closes the gap between -Spellcasting Time Cures and Waltzes. Should you be TPing in your Waltz Potency gear when in a healing role? Should you just not bother getting Waltz Potency gear that you can't TP in? I'd hope that the answer to both of these questions is "No." The game needs an automated midcast (which is faster than vanilla macros) in order for the Waltz design to be reasonable.


Take Weapon Skills, for instance. People typically TP and WS in different sets, but in high Haste situations people with in-game macros end up TPing in their WS sets more often than they think (especially if they're using two macro swaps for WS gear). A round here or there, but in high haste situations any round in your WS set is going to take twice as long as in your TP set (75% Haste in TP set -> 50% Haste in WS set). If you have a 4-hit build in Voidwatch and one round every cycle is in your WS set, you take as long to get TP as a 5-hit (and do one melee swing less damage). If moving from a 5-hit to a 4-hit effectively increases your WS frequency (and thus net WS damage) by 33%, you have to wonder if it's even worth swapping gear for WSs on the vanilla client in high Haste situations. If you automate the swaps, it's entirely repeatable and you can be sure that your gear switches back to TP before the WS delay ends.

Take special note of the part about what happens when it takes you too long to get in / out of your ws gear.

[Nala]

Eh not that i'm trying to be in support of the anti windower macro faction but smart macro design with the /macro set commands allows for timely gear swaps of up to 15 pieces of gear... however it still doesn't change the fact that you have to hit 3 macros which can lead to more human error and thus inefficient play style.

Given that you can accomplish 15 in 3 swap in rapid succession why should it matter if i swap 15 in 1? (though truthfully most cases its only practical to swap 12 which still would require 3 macros)

[Ragmar]

Eh not that i'm trying to be in support of the anti windower macro faction but smart macro design with the /macro set commands allows for timely gear swaps of up to 15 pieces of gear... however it still doesn't change the fact that you have to hit 3 macros which can lead to more human error and thus inefficient play style.

Given that you can accomplish 15 in 3 swap in rapid succession why should it matter if i swap 15 in 1? (though truthfully most cases its only practical to swap 12 which still would require 3 macros)

For me it's not about being anti windower. Its about being anti hypocritical. You can't come here asking for heads to roll but not yours because you think your third party ToS violating tool is ok. I'm fine if they decide to ban for this I just want them to ban for all third party tools, craft bots, fishing bots, windower, clipper and claim bots if they decide to do so. There are probably other third party tools im not listing because I'm not aware of them not because I support them but not these.

[Kristal]

1+1=2 no matter how many times you wanna say 1+1=3.

BinaryStringToInteger("1"+"1") = 3

[Ragmar]

BinaryStringToInteger("1"+"1") = 3

Mathematical Fallacy?

[Nala]

Eh when did i ever ask for heads to roll? not that i agree with peeps that cheat at this event, ive done it once just to try it out with some friends think we got to floor 60, between the fact that my shell's been helping peeps through assaults (working towards getting a few peeps assaults) and my refusal to go to the same lengths i do not do this event.

While i am not asking for heads to roll i do think the event needs a little more consideration, the overall concept of RNG stacked on top of RNG on top of RNG is just meh.

[Kristal]

Mathematical Fallacy?

Nope. Just showing that an answer is not always the same under all conditions.

BinaryStringToInteger("1"+"1") = 3
BinaryStringToInteger("11") = 3
&b11 = 3
3=3

Assuming you want to stay within the restrictions of integer numbers, I can also add another restriction, that excludes all even numbers. Numbers go 1,3,5,7,9 , in which case 1+1=3, 3+3=7, 1+7=9, 1-1=-1 etc.

[saevel]

BinaryStringToInteger("1"+"1") = 3

Won't work. "1" isn't 01 nor 10 in binary. The ASCII character "1" is 49 in decimal or 31H depending how you roll.

This your function would return the integer 98 as the result of combining the binary value of two "1" characters. Of course if your using unicode then the answer could be much longer.

Now if you first combined the two strings into 1 single string, then you could get it to be 11b. Yet 11b is NOT the same as (1 + 1).

Your playing semantics with math, never do that.

[Arcon]

Won't work. "1" isn't 01 nor 10 in binary. The ASCII character "1" is 49 in decimal or 31H depending how you roll.

That's a matter of implementation. "1" is a string, not a character. "1"+"1" performs string concatenation (in any reasonably language). And a string cannot be converted to a number (at least not in any meaningful way). If BinaryStringToInteger takes a string of 1s and 0s (which is what I'd assume under the name and the only thing that makes sense), then it would work. You assume it splits the string by characters and converts them to their numeric representation, which would make the function name pretty misleading (and which would differ by the underlying system).


Now if you first combined the two strings into 1 single string, then you could get it to be 11b. Yet 11b is NOT the same as (1 + 1).

That's his entire point. He wanted to say that 1+1=3 is valid if the + is not numerical addition but concatenation and the left-hand side of the equation is interpreted as binary.

[Ragmar]

Eh when did i ever ask for heads to roll? not that i agree with peeps that cheat at this event, ive done it once just to try it out with some friends think we got to floor 60, between the fact that my shell's been helping peeps through assaults (working towards getting a few peeps assaults) and my refusal to go to the same lengths i do not do this event.

While i am not asking for heads to roll i do think the event needs a little more consideration, the overall concept of RNG stacked on top of RNG on top of RNG is just meh.

I wasnt intending to say you were just that many in this thread have been and I find it lulz when they try to justify why their own third party tools are ok but others who use another third party tool should be banned. Again neither one of these tools negatively effect the rest of the player base. The argument that if they werent cheating SE would see the need to rework this content could absolutely be used for the macro system as well as just the basic functions of windower. I mean if SE were losing their player base rather than people downloading the windower client maybe we would have gotten FFXI 2.0! Right?

[Demon6324236]

If SE was losing their player base FFXI would be dead and the devs all moved to FFXIV in hopes its 2.0 edition comes out sooner and better. I have no doubt that all thats keeping FFXI alive right now is the fact so many people still play it instead of FFXIV and we have showed we all love this game enough to keep at it, soon as we ditch it, so will they.

[Ragmar]

Nope. Just showing that an answer is not always the same under all conditions.

BinaryStringToInteger("1"+"1") = 3
BinaryStringToInteger("11") = 3
&b11 = 3
3=3

Assuming you want to stay within the restrictions of integer numbers, I can also add another restriction, that excludes all even numbers. Numbers go 1,3,5,7,9 , in which case 1+1=3, 3+3=7, 1+7=9, 1-1=-1 etc.

Imma go with Sev on this one as everything I googled show this to be incorrect. And 1+1 will always =2 even if what you're saying is correct because you're talking about a completely different equation with restrictions that are not present in 1+1. Additional information would be needed for you to even consider your equation. I never took like trig or calc but even I know the structure of the problem determines the formula used to find the answer. I'm always up to learn new stuff so if you really believe what you're saying provide some supporting links pls.

[Arcon]

I'm always up to learn new stuff so if you really believe what you're saying provide some supporting links pls.

It's not a math problem at all, it's a programming problem. I explained it three posts above. There's also many (mathematical) ways 1+1 can equal something other than 2, for example in a Z%2 algebra where 1+1=0. In this case, the + is the modular addition instead of the usual arithmetic addition.

[Ragmar]

If SE was losing their player base FFXI would be dead and the devs all moved to FFXIV in hopes its 2.0 edition comes out sooner and better. I have no doubt that all thats keeping FFXI alive right now is the fact so many people still play it instead of FFXIV and we have showed we all love this game enough to keep at it, soon as we ditch it, so will they.

You are not part of the we that have played and supported this game for a long time. FFXI is alive because it has a paying player base which creates a profit for SE!? OMG no wai. You're still here trying to justify you violating the ToS while wanting others punished for doing the same. You didn't like a part of the game so you violated the ToS to play how you want. Someone who swapped dats did exactly that and no more. You do know someone else having nyzul gear no way effects you right? I mean other than to cause abysseanoobumadness.

[FrankReynolds]

I really hate hate hate when people get on other peoples case about their ffxiah profiles as if it has anything to do with a topic, But hearing "abysseanoobumadness" coming from someone who has this: "WoC looking for a few mature people to build empy/AF3+2/Relic" in their profile strikes me as odd.

[Demon6324236]

You are not part of the we that have played and supported this game for a long time. FFXI is alive because it has a paying player base which creates a profit for SE!? OMG no wai. You're still here trying to justify you violating the ToS while wanting others punished for doing the same. You didn't like a part of the game so you violated the ToS to play how you want. Someone who swapped dats did exactly that and no more. You do know someone else having nyzul gear no way effects you right? I mean other than to cause abysseanoobumadness.

Everything I said was in response to a single line of yours...
I mean if SE were losing their player base rather than people downloading the windower client maybe we would have gotten FFXI 2.0! Right?I honestly don't care what gear others have except in the fact I take after it by adding it to my own plans time to time. I also don't care what you use to play this game so long as the outcome doesn't directly effect me in a detrimental way. I only joined in this for the fact you were condemning Windowers ability to improve macros so far as I could tell and it has become something I accept as basically essential in my playing of RDM. I could go with the ingame way of doing it and it would suck, not be detrimental so much as it would be annoying and painful, something I would rather not subject myself to.



Edit:Wait, 1 more thing, I was unaware I was playing this game for free and no money required. Which is apparently the case because...
You are not part of the we that have played and supported this game for a long time....nice to know I'm apparently not part of the group supporting/playing the game or paying for it.

[Demon6324236]

Greetings!

We recently confirmed that there is a bug for Nyzul Isle assault where users are able to know the order of lamps via the usage of unintended exploits.

The development team is currently working to fix this as soon as possible, but please keep in mind that using third-party tools or any form of game exploit usage will not be tolerated and that we are continuously keeping track and dealing with this issue.

Finally, if you are aware of players possibly using exploits, we urge you to make a report to the Special Task Force (http://support.na.square-enix.com/contacttop.php?id=20&la=1) to help facilitate our investigation.16 Likes.
Why not just remove lamp floors entirely instead? This event is the most broken thing in FFXI as is, reducing the success rate of the cheaters to 0% (like the non-cheaters) will just make Neo Nyzul completely dead instead of just mostly dead.60 Likes.




Please tell the reps, the community has spoken its opinion on their choices, and relay the messages brought to you by the people in this thread, concerning this change.

The numbers have changed even more, I wonder... Camate did you tell the devs of our feedback as we asked? Any word back on how things are going or are we sticking to the same old reply about fixing dat mods but not the underlining problem?

[Baudle]

We do not tolerate third party programs or promoting it. For this reason, we will be locking this thread. Thank you for your understanding.

~GM Baudle