Race balance

[Rambus]

I forget what thread it was, I was poking around where someone pointed out on the Japanese forums they were talking about race balance. It has 53 pages now and I’m wondering what you guys think of it.

taru too little hp?
taru too little str?

I don't know but I find it strange when i look at my 56 or w/e it was str at 75 base as a blue when an elv had 70. I know there is disadvantage and advantage of race but I think str and HP have way more impact then int and mp gives.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

taru too little hp?
taru too little str?Make a galka.

[Starr]

I think the stats are balanced and fair but HP/MP needs balancing bad, considering atmas/cruor buffs give a +% of HP

[Lyall]

I'm not sure if those numbers are accurate; there shouldn't be a fourteen point difference between races at level seventy five.

Regardless, that's what you signed up for when you picked a tarutaru. If races were purely cosmetic there'd be no reason to pick one.

[Rambus]

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.square-enix.com%2Fffxi%2Fthreads%2F443-%E7%A8%AE%E6%97%8F%E5%B7%AE%E3%81%AB%E3%81%A4%E3%81%84%E3%81%A6&act=url

what i get from it so far, there is mp/hp issues and there is not enough new gear ( like old rse) to offset it.


However, Legal and El character is strong and feels cool, but do not want to own. タルタルの見た目の可愛さでFF11をはじめたのでそこは譲りたくありません。 Tartar look at a cute FF11 is not there because 譲Ritaku began.
I found that funny

[Starr]

I'm not sure if those numbers are accurate; there shouldn't be a fourteen point difference between races at level seventy five.

Regardless, that's what you signed up for when you picked a tarutaru. If races were purely cosmetic there'd be no reason to pick one.
14? I thought it was a 10 STR difference between Elvaan and Taru at 75

[Tsukino_Kaji]

14? I thought it was a 10 STR difference between Elvaan and Taru at 75Which will get you about 10 extra dmg to your gekko.

[Lyall]

Was referring to the 56:70 comparison at the top of the page, unless I misunderstood. Blue Mage has some horrific stat bases to offset spells, hence my not quite believing 75BLU has seventy base strength.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Was referring to the 56:70 comparison at the top of the page, unless I misunderstood. Blue Mage has some horrific stat bases to offset spells, hence my not quite believing 75BLU has seventy base strength.It wouldn't as an elf even?

[Lyall]

It wouldn't as an elf even?

I'm not sure, but I wouldn't think so. Granted, I'm not an elvaan so I could very well be wrong but isn't BLU at the bottom of attribute ranks?

[Tsukino_Kaji]

The whole point is moot anyway, since that are balance. If you wanted str, don't play the #5 race taru, play the #1 race elf. And if the debate was BLU-centric, you're a freakin' taru! You have the highest int in the game!

[Dauntless]

Well there is definitely a large strength difference between the races as its common for me to see an Elvaan Pup out-DPSing a taru mnk.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Or us hume BSTs out WSing the elf WARs. ^^

[Kirana]

Don't you be hatin' on my 99 Mithra dex!

Seriously though, races are different for a reason.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Well there is definitely a large strength difference between the races as its common for me to see an Elvaan Pup out-DPSing a taru mnk.

Sounds more like a gear/playstyle issue than race, not saying Taru isn't behind being a damage dealer in the strictest sense due to lower Str, but without further information I'm going to have to call exaggeration because the difference isn't large enough to be a complete landside if gear/merits/performance is the same.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Sounds more like a gear/playstyle issue than race, not saying Taru isn't behind being a damage dealer in the strictest sense due to lower Str, but without further information I'm going to have to call exaggeration because the difference isn't large enough to be a complete landside if gear/merits/performance is the same.Ture, but your argument hit the wrong direction since all the races have the same access to the gear and merits leaving the same discrepency int he end.
Realy it's not an issue that tarus have negative str, because they have possitives in other traits.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Meant a well geared pup should beat a full pink mnk who doesn't gearswap, hence I said without more information he's over exaggerating the reason the elvaan is beating the taru, since he made it sound like a race issue. I could be wrong.
The main issue I have with being taru is the horrible hp stat but meh, free mp instead. Some more +HP gear wouldn't hurt but I think the available pieces are good enough.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Get a cassie. lol

[Neisan_Quetz]

Rdm mindset, looking for HP pieces that don't lower mp, otherwise yes it's a good option.

[rog]

I know there is disadvantage and advantage of race but I think str and HP have way more impact then int and mp gives. What? I think you have that backwards.

[Rambus]

What? I think you have that backwards.

how so? max mp is worthless and in abyssea its all about how much HP you can get so you do not get oneshoted.

STR is factored twice and about pinking race, like i knew this starting the game -.-

I find it strange though how Japanese can talk about it for 53 pages and here its more of "i don't care"

taru:
str: last
dex: tied with second last and only 3 more then elvaan
AGI: second
VIT: last ( tied with mithra)
MND: last
CHR: first ( 3 races are tied for this, then 2 under them, so basically this is meaningless)
hp: last
INT: first
MP:first

taru stats as a total is too low. too meny last and the fact INT and MP does not factor much.

the only stat i repect is our AGI, we have too low mnd, hp, str,dex to be offset by int and mp

[rog]

how so? max mp is worthless and in abyssea its all about how much HP you can get so you do not get oneshoted.
Str is not counted twice. Fstr is always capped anyway, so adding more does not increase it.

Not sure why you think max mp is worthless.

[Komori]

Sounds to me more like you just want Tarus to rock at everything. But I quite enjoy watching tarus get one-shotted by the softest hitting of things. You were meant to be mages.

If STR and HP meant that much to you, you should've picked something else. I'm not trying to be insensitive but cosmetics aren't everything in this game. I chose Mithra not only because I like the looks (and I'm actually female) but because I had a genuine interest in jobs like THF and DNC which are greatly benefitted by the race.

[Rambus]

Sounds to me more like you just want Tarus to rock at everything. But I quite enjoy watching tarus get one-shotted by the softest hitting of things. You were meant to be mages.

If STR and HP meant that much to you, you should've picked something else. I'm not trying to be insensitive but cosmetics aren't everything in this game. I chose Mithra not only because I like the looks (and I'm actually female) but because I had a genuine interest in jobs like THF and DNC which are greatly benefitted by the race.

No i know there should be advantage and disadvantage; I just think there is too much disadvantage.

how does 2 stats offset 5?

I would understand if those 5 where more of a medium level then 2 high stats can offset say 1 really low one and 4 midrange but 2 offseting 5 low ones?

like i said back in the day I did not know this till like 2 years after playing, you are not going to start over back in 2005.

max mp has always been worthless, its all about how you keep it up. Abyssea just shoves that fact in your face.

and I am not going to be a guy playing a girl cat, too much of that already.

I think hume/mithra are best balanced, not sure about the rest I was concerned about my race.

[NrvnqsrKhaos]

<- Guy playing a cat girl.

JOOOOOOIIIINNN UUUUSSSSSSS

But no, seriously, Is it really that big of a game-breaker? I assumed skill would cover up any discrepancies in Racial stats at end-game, but I wouldn't really know.

[rog]

max mp has always been worthless, its all about how you keep it up. Abyssea just shoves that fact in your face.
Until you realize that recovering mp faster does you no good if you can run out of mp in 5 nukes. Sorry, but mp recovery only matters in the long term. In the short term, you are limited by your max mp.

[Rambus]

<- Guy playing a cat girl.

JOOOOOOIIIINNN UUUUSSSSSSS

But no, seriously, Is it really that big of a game-breaker? I assumed skill would cover up any discrepancies in Racial stats at end-game, but I wouldn't really know.

I guess not, its more of an uh "show-off" thing with numbers i guess, and my logical agurement of saying "I do not understand that we have 2 stats to try offset 5". I also think those 5 have greater impacts then my 2 (well lol vit but still =/)


Until you realize that recovering mp faster does you no good if you can run out of mp in 5 nukes. Sorry, but mp recovery only matters in the long term. In the short term, you are limited by your max mp.

This has to end with agree to disagree or it will not end well.
I will say this though, with resting gear and so on I do find max mp worthless even before milkin. The only time max MP matters is when you have to solo outside abyssea ( meaning no milkin)

I played RDM as first job, then blm, then blu, then sch while playing SMN, then WHM, then SCH again so I think I know what I am talking about. I never used mp+ gear unless it was SMN becasue there is nothing better. even on SMN mp gear was a last resort.

Max MP being good is harder now that you can sub for convert. the only logical stance there is ( more for gear argument, not racial base) to have a hp+/mp+ balance tug of war to balance mp and hp for a convert macro. btw I think other races did that on RDM better then taru did, though I have no idea with what things are like now.

[rog]

This has to end with agree to disagree or it will not end well.
I will say this though, with resting gear and so on I do find max mp worthless even before milkin. The only time max MP matters is when you have to solo outside abyssea ( meaning no milkin)

Sup.

If you want to kill a mob that takes 10 blizzard 3s to kill, would you rather have:

1) 1200 mp, 2 mp/tic refresh
or
2) 1000 mp, 5/tic refresh?

Max mp is irrelevant in the long term, and only rate of recovery matters. However in the short term, the opposite is true. There is no room for opinions here, it's just a fact.

[Rambus]

Sup.

If you want to kill a mob that takes 10 blizzard 3s to kill, would you rather have:

1) 1200 mp, 2 mp/tic refresh
or
2) 1000 mp, 5/tic refresh?

Max mp is irrelevant in the long term, and only rate of recovery matters. However in the short term, the opposite is true. There is no room for opinions here, it's just a fact.

Yeah I can see it being a soloing issue as mage, but thats about it, if you factor out convert (since race difference is a lot smaller with convert macros and taru may not actally have the best hp/mp convert macro)

(I am saying as general, I am having trobble mathing that to answer that, you have to factor recasts and such or if you can sleep and rest between blizzard III since you can get 1 tic of rest with only depending on that spell)

[Komori]

To be honest, the japanese version of this thread probably went further because it was probably talking about the benefits of being the different races rather than.
"I think Tarus need to be buff, nuff said".

[Cream_Soda]

dex: tied with second last and only 3 more then elvaanYou could say tied for second first as well.

[rog]

Yeah I can see it being a soloing issue as mage, but thats about it, if you factor out convert (since race difference is a lot smaller with convert macros and taru may not actally have the best hp/mp convert macro)

(I am saying as general, I am having trobble mathing that to answer that, you have to factor recasts and such or if you can sleep and rest between blizzard III since you can get 1 tic of rest with only depending on that spell)If you have to rest, then you're going to take longer.

Any time you use all of your mp is a short period of time, max mp matters.

[Rambus]

To be honest, the japanese version of this thread probably went further because it was probably talking about the benefits of being the different races rather than.
"I think Tarus need to be buff, nuff said".

I was trying to use that as an example to get something going -.-. I never had a reason to analyze other races and know what it is like.

Dex is, according to ffxi wiki (be nice to log on game to know stat though ><)

Thief dexterity score with no sub @75:
Mithra 70, Galka 63, Hume 63, Tarutaru 63, Elvaan 60

*I guess Cream_Soda has a point*

but stuff like that I can also say it needs to be more unique, like pad taru DEX a bit since they minc a somewhat high AGI. Be less then mithra of couse but at lest be more then galka, wth they are huge -.-


If you have to rest, then you're going to take longer.

Any time you use all of your mp is a short period of time, max mp matters.

you said BIII only so i think you can /heal a tic for recasts, I was just using your exmaple in saying I do not know how to math it, that was only one reason though.

Like i sad before I think we need to agree to disagree on this, I only agree max MP matters in soloing without convert

[Komori]

Lol, as a 90 DNC I have like 96/98 base DEX and AGI.

But isn't that why they gave multiple pieces of gear for jobs? It's suppose to be somewhat to make up for what your race lacks, not just what a particular job needs. Like extra DEX and AGI on a mithra is great; but not *needed*.

[Jamesruglia]

Actually, I always thought the racial differences should be bigger if anything. At about Lv75, racial stat difference extremes range between 7-14 points. From a real life perspective, if you took an average person, a person who doesn't perform physical activity, and a Galka-like workhorse, they'd have a comparative difference of at least, without exaggurating, ten times that. A Lv30 tarutaru monk is still a tarutaru compared to, say, a Lv5 Galkan thief.

Then again, I always took this a step further and thought it'd be nice to take individual variation into account as well; a hume red mage who also practices Warrior arts a lot should have higher physical stats and lower magical stats than a hume red mage who spends their free time calling avatars out of their eternal slumber and slinging them back repeatedly outside Jeuno.

[Rambus]

Actually, I always thought the racial differences should be bigger if anything. At about Lv75, racial stat difference extremes range between 7-14 points. From a real life perspective, if you took an average person, a person who doesn't perform physical activity, and a Galka-like workhorse, they'd have a comparative difference of at least, without exaggurating, ten times that. A Lv30 tarutaru monk is still a tarutaru compared to, say, a Lv5 Galkan thief.

Then again, I always took this a step further and thought it'd be nice to take individual variation into account as well; a hume red mage who also practices Warrior arts a lot should have higher physical stats and lower magical stats than a hume red mage who spends their free time calling avatars out of their eternal slumber and slinging them back repeatedly outside Jeuno.

I agreee but i want more dex then a galka!

This is where I was trying to go, Why should 3 races be tied in a stat? if there was greater differences there could be more unique grades.

about the stat changing thing thats dependet what you do, it would be nice but I do not see how SE will carry that out. I guess that is why they made merits to stats but its not enough anymore.

we could increase caps for stat merits too.