Heavy Metal Plates

[Kysaiana]

Mostly starting this topic to see how many people think the current trial for 95 empyrean weapons is fine as is, and how many think it's a pile of crap.

I personally fall in the latter opinion. The trial would be fine if HMP's were a common drop off most of the VW system or even other systems, but as it stands, only the very bored and very rich even bother with this trial. As you can see in the census released in early July, very few of the empyrean weapons made are 95 or above.
http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/guide/development/census/11/4.html

SE either needs to seriously up the supply of HMPs, or lower the amount required from 1500 to something in the realm of sanity, say 300 or 150. Prices on Siren at the moment range from 110k to 130k per HMP, that's 165 to 195 million gil for a single trial that only gives you a few base damage and 2 STR/DEX/ect.

Anyway, I hate to add to the constant sea of complaints around here but it's just really frustrating to not be able to finish any trials past 90 for empyreans/WoE. Since WoE is dead content there's no supply of dice or residue besides from those who started to collect them and gave up and are now selling them.

[katiekat]

i agree but i do think 400-500 would be more along the lines of a good number.

[Tamoa]

As one of those people that have actually done that trial, I'd be really p****d if they did lower the requirement, I have to admit that. Then again, SE has trolled people this way before (relic trials) and if they did decide to lower the number of plates there's nothing I can do about it.

Would be better if plates were easier to come by - higher drop rates, alternative sources.

[Reiterpallasch]

More so than the huge number alone, I think the bigger issue is that VW is already starting to slow down. It's probably likely that HMP will soon go the way of alexandrite, especially when the new expansion hits.

[Vivivivi]

I think the number required is alright, when you can get 6-11 HMP on something like a qilin run, but I agree the drop rate should be considered for adjustment. I have all priepts for VW, and did Qilin 18 times yesterday, and didn't get a single HMP. Each Qilin had capped lights, and I traded 3 rubi cells each time and even 3 cobalt on 4 of the runs. If you received 10-20 for doing that many pops each time, 1500 at least seems obtainable, especially considering you can buy them from bazaars.

I should note this was the worst drop rate i've experienced with HMP, I usually at the very least get a pouch of 3 from a x6 Qilin or Aello run.

[Camiie]

As one of those people that have actually done that trial, I'd be really p****d if they did lower the requirement, I have to admit that. Then again, SE has trolled people this way before (relic trials) and if they did decide to lower the number of plates there's nothing I can do about it.

Such is the life of an early adopter I'm afraid.


Would be better if plates were easier to come by - higher drop rates, alternative sources.

Agreed. Even if they don't lower the requirement, they could at least spread the love around a bit. Many VW mobs have rather pathetic loot tables as is. Simply adding the chance for plates would improve them considerably and may encourage people to do some fights they don't normally do. I can't see the downside in that.

[Demon6324236]

As one of those people that have actually done that trial, I'd be really p****d if they did lower the requirement, I have to admit that. Then again, SE has trolled people this way before (relic trials) and if they did decide to lower the number of plates there's nothing I can do about it.

Would be better if plates were easier to come by - higher drop rates, alternative sources.

I'm not sure why it matters either way how they go about it. If they lower the number needed you will be angry because it becomes easier. If they make them easier to get you should be just as angry because again, it becomes easier. The same thing with people and Mythics honestly, more Alex supply or less Alex needed there is little difference, if your going to be mad about 1 way you should be equally mad at the other I think.

In either case I don't care which way they go about it but something needs to be done thats for sure. For now 1500 plates at 100~120k each is more expensive than an entire relic weapon but instead you get a small boost in damage and the stat mod for your weapon which could never be worth it. Less money, less work, and you can obtain a Relic95 which is likely in the same ballpark damage wise if not higher.

[Tamoa]

Such is the life of an early adopter I'm afraid.

I finished 99 Ukon in March, that was what - around 6 months after the trial was implemented, so I'd hardly call myself an early adopter. Furthermore, it would have taken a lot longer if not for the fact I'm blessed with some amazing friends who gave me a total of 600ish plates that they'd gotten from fights.



I'm not sure why it matters either way how they go about it. If they lower the number needed you will be angry because it becomes easier. If they make them easier to get you should be just as angry because again, it becomes easier.

Wrong. If the amount is lowered, I'll get angry because it would mean I have wasted millions of gil, and my awesome friends might as well have thrown away all the plates they gave to me.

I would in fact welcome it if SE makes heavy metal plates (and riftdross/riftcinder) easier to get. I have friends that want to upgrade their weapon(s), and I'd love to see them do just that.

[Camiie]

I finished 99 Ukon in March, that was what - around 6 months after the trial was implemented, so I'd hardly call myself an early adopter. Furthermore, it would have taken a lot longer if not for the fact I'm blessed with some amazing friends who gave me a total of 600ish plates that they'd gotten from fights.

I wasn't trying to attack you. I was just saying that that's how things go in game and in life. What's hard to get or expensive today will invariably be easier to get and cheaper tomorrow. Don't go into something expecting anything else.


Wrong. If the amount is lowered, I'll get angry because it would mean I have wasted millions of gil, and my awesome friends might as well have thrown away all the plates they gave to me.

I don't see what's a waste about it. You have a 99 Ukon right now while the vast majority of us do not. You have friends who obviously place great value on your friendship. You should be happy.


I would in fact welcome it if SE makes heavy metal plates (and riftdross/riftcinder) easier to get.

Increasing the supply or lowering the number required ultimately lead you to the same place.


I have friends that want to upgrade their weapon(s), and I'd love to see them do just that.

I like the sentiment here. That's exactly how I feel. I want everyone to have nice things. If it makes my things less rare or special then so be it.

[Francisco]

Hypothetically, what if the requirement for Heavy Metal Plates was gradually lowered, and refunds were granted to empyrean holders prior to the adjustments?

For example:

September 2012: Any player with a 95/99 empyrean weapon will receive a refund of 250 Heavy Metal Plates via NPC.
October 2012: The required amount of Heavy Metal Plates is lowered from 1500 to 1250.

December 2012: Any player with a 95/99 empyrean weapon will receive a refund of 250 Heavy Metal Plates via NPC.
January 2013: The required amount of Heavy Metal Plates is lowered from 1250 to 1000.

March 2013: Any player with a 95/99 empyrean weapon will receive a refund of 250 Heavy Metal Plates via NPC.
April 2013: The required amount of Heavy Metal Plates is lowered from 1000 to 750.

August 2013: Any player with a 95/99 empyrean weapon will receive a refund of 250 Heavy Metal Plates via NPC.
September 2013: The required amount of Heavy Metal Plates is lowered from 750 to 500.

Maybe not exactly as such, but it might be a relatively fair adjustment...

1: Increased supply of Heavy Metal Plates
2: Increased demand of Heavy Metal Plates
3: Players who completed the trial at 1500 Heavy Metal Plates gradually receives a refund of 1000. Player has the option to complete two more 95 Empyreans or to sell them to others.
4: Should be a relatively fair balance between those who do the 500 HMP trial and those who do the 1500 HMP trial... at 500 HMP trials, the price might actually spike as the trial becomes "doable" for people who couldn't manage it now. Hard to predict if the increased supply would balance with the demand... we're talking 1000 HMP for every Empyrean weapon out there to be recycled back into circulation. Furthermore, any heavy metal plate over 500 used per trial would again be recycled.

Perhaps 500 is too low if using this method, or the refund may need to be less generous, as it might cause an overflow of 95 weapons (which SE won't allow). I do think, however, once the trials hit 500 HMP in mid-late 2013, the abundant supply would dry up rather quickly.

[wish12oz]

I think they need to drop the requirement to at most 1000 plates, increase the drop rate of plates/pouches on everything that drops them, and ignore trying to give anyone a refund and the crying that ensues because of it, as thats just silly. BTW, my Ukon is 99 and I have like 500 plates on a mule, Im undecided if I care enough about NIN to finish Kannagi or not.

[Arcon]

I think they need to drop the requirement to at most 1000 plates, increase the drop rate of plates/pouches on everything that drops them, and ignore trying to give anyone a refund and the crying that ensues because of it, as thats just silly.

This. Not only would this not be nearly as bad as the relic building nerf was, additionally people who have completed this trial did so right after relic builders were shafted. They knew very well what they could expect in the future. If they did lower the amount I'd be surprised if anyone was shocked about it.

[Demon6324236]

Simple fix to supply if they wanted. Plates can drop in junk slots, plates always drop in HQ slots if it is not a HQ item. In the case of Pouch NMs pouches would still be HQ drops in the HQ slot, anything that is junk in the HQ slot should be a normal plate still. Abyssea gave 1 item on every kill always and you only required 50~75 of them, that number is 1/20th at most of the plate requirement I think it fair we always get at least 1 plate on NMs that drop them if not more.

[Ophannus]

The 1500 plate requirement was to make Empyreans on par with Relic/Mythic. SE figures that the time/cost/effort of getting 99 Relic/Mythic/Empyrean are all about equal by the time you hit 99. Whereas the Relic/Mythic money/time sink stages are in the beggining with currency cost or WS trials, the empyrean trials are extremely easy to take to the 90 version. So the long/ardous trial for Relic/Mythic is simply building it but after it's 75, it's mostly smooth sailing to 99. For Empyrean, it's smooth sailing to 90 then the plates/rift are the expensive/ardous task from 95-99. So technically the trials are balanced somewhat. If the HMP trial was only 200-300 you could theoretically build a 99 empyrean in less than a week if you were rich.

[Camiie]

The 1500 plate requirement was to make Empyreans on par with Relic/Mythic. SE figures that the time/cost/effort of getting 99 Relic/Mythic/Empyrean are all about equal by the time you hit 99. Whereas the Relic/Mythic money/time sink stages are in the beggining with currency cost or WS trials, the empyrean trials are extremely easy to take to the 90 version. So the long/ardous trial for Relic/Mythic is simply building it but after it's 75, it's mostly smooth sailing to 99. For Empyrean, it's smooth sailing to 90 then the plates/rift are the expensive/ardous task from 95-99. So technically the trials are balanced somewhat. If the HMP trial was only 200-300 you could theoretically build a 99 empyrean in less than a week if you were rich.


So they pretty much do what they've always done. Piss off a whole bunch of people to protect the egos of a tiny segment of the population. I'm rather fond of calling people out on skewed perspectives and the devs have a really skewed one here.

[tyrantsyn]

Fine where it is, the level of commitment going from 90 to 95 is pretty great. And instill's a nice level of pride for being able to dump that much gil into one thing. I wouldn't want to see it drop, it would only cheapen the victory of finishing it.And lessen the sense of accomplishment.

[Reiterpallasch]

What will happen when VW is old content that nobody cares to do anymore though? That 1500 will end up being one hell of a lot harder to come by if they don't do something about the current system.

[Demon6324236]

The 1500 plate requirement was to make Empyreans on par with Relic/Mythic. SE figures that the time/cost/effort of getting 99 Relic/Mythic/Empyrean are all about equal by the time you hit 99. Whereas the Relic/Mythic money/time sink stages are in the beggining with currency cost or WS trials, the empyrean trials are extremely easy to take to the 90 version. So the long/ardous trial for Relic/Mythic is simply building it but after it's 75, it's mostly smooth sailing to 99. For Empyrean, it's smooth sailing to 90 then the plates/rift are the expensive/ardous task from 95-99. So technically the trials are balanced somewhat. If the HMP trial was only 200-300 you could theoretically build a 99 empyrean in less than a week if you were rich.

While your idea on why they did it seems about right, the way they did it was stupid in the end.

Relic
Coins=8k
Byne=8k
Shells=6k
Lv75 Total=121~142Mil
Umbral Marrow=15~20Mil
Start-Lv99 Total=196~242Mil



Mythic
Various Battlefield Currencys
Alexandrite=20~23k
Lv75 Total=600~690Mil
Mulcibar's Scoria=10Mil
Lv99 Total=630~720Mil



Empyrean
Lv75 Total=0
Heavy Metal=100~120k
Riftcinder=1.5Mil
Riftdross=750k
Lv99 Total=195~270Mil



Relic:196~242Mil
Mythic:630~720Mil
Empyrean:195~270Mil



While Relics & Emps may be closer in terms of cost if you do not obtain them otherwise, Mythic is still 3 times the cost. Also as seen with most people faced with this massive jump in price and difficulty Emps will stay at 85~90 but never reach 95 due to the Plate stage. Which mostly make this a pointless gesture on their part because by raising the cost they simply created to many people leaving weapons at lv90 with no intent to get it higher. 90 is still a good weapon, and alot of people do not see the point in spending what would be 150~180Mil on what is anywhere between 4~14DMG and 1~2 on the WS mod stat.



Alot of people are perfectly content with a lv90 Emp for no money only effort rather than a lv95~99 Emp/Relic that will cost them nearly or more than 200Mil in the end but only reward them with a little more DMG/Stats.

[Teraniku]

Fine where it is, the level of commitment going from 90 to 95 is pretty great. And instill's a nice level of pride for being able to dump that much gil into one thing. I wouldn't want to see it drop, it would only cheapen the victory of finishing it.And lessen the sense of accomplishment.

Tell that to all of us who finished the Old School Chains of Promathia storyline. Then ask me if I care if SE changes the requirements for getting your Relics / Mythics / Empyreans to 95 / 99. I mean I'm glad you love the game so much that you felt the need / desire to take the time to get everything to make your weapon, but seriously if you're going to whine if they change the requirements / drop rate of Alexandrite and or Heavy Metal Plates, then you need to reexamine why you're playing the game. If they change the requirements , who cares... oh wait You do because then you won't be so special anymore.

[Sparthos]

Fine where it is, the level of commitment going from 90 to 95 is pretty great. And instill's a nice level of pride for being able to dump that much gil into one thing. I wouldn't want to see it drop, it would only cheapen the victory of finishing it.And lessen the sense of accomplishment.

They cheapened a ton of 'accomplishments' with upping the level cap.

Individuals have tons of Empyrean weapons and it'd be great if people could actually finish them sometime before the sun engulfs the Earth. Making mobs like Ig-Alima, Rex, Bismarck, Morta drop pouches while offering single plates in the non-HQ dropslots would be fair since these mobs are designed for lvl99 and are difficult relative to the Zilart 3 which were for a 95 cap.

Further, CoP and ToAU T1s are harder than Zilart so why arent these too dropping plates/pouches? No one currently does them because they offer no incentive and this then chokes the market for new items needed to build new abjuration gear because once people get clears on the T1s no one repeats these battlefields.

Crafters and players would benefit from spreading these Heavy Metal plates around at the least to TOAU/COP T1s at a higher rate than Zilart T3.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

More so than the huge number alone, I think the bigger issue is that VW is already starting to slow down. It's probably likely that HMP will soon go the way of alexandrite, especially when the new expansion hits.This is the only real problem with plates. 1500 is nothing in the grand sceme of weapons. This same issue aplies to the trials above plates as well.
And if people want to argure how much more relic costs, they're full of it, you can solo plates.

[Demon6324236]

And if people want to argure how much more relic costs.

Not sure who would argue that relic costs more. Plates alone cost more than an entire relic weapon from start up to lv95 with the same amount of work if not less seeing as it is much easier to solo the WS trials for Relics than it is to solo making an Emp. Like I showed in my math, relics cost 196~242Mil from start to 99 and Empyreans cost 195~270Mil. Emps are more expensive after the Lv90 trials and more work before that than you see in Relics during their WS/NM trials.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Not sure who would argue that relic costs more. Plates alone cost more than an entire relic weapon from start up to lv95 with the same amount of work if not less seeing as it is much easier to solo the WS trials for Relics than it is to solo making an Emp. Like I showed in my math, relics cost 196~242Mil from start to 99 and Empyreans cost 195~270Mil. Emps are more expensive after the Lv90 trials and more work before that than you see in Relics during their WS/NM trials.Try quoting the whole thing before you post against it, you're arguing half a sentance and not even the part that had the point to it. Besides, if you bought plates, it'd cost you 150m which is the aporximate market value of a relic.

[Demon6324236]

Try quoting the whole thing before you post against it, you're arguing half a sentance and not even the part that had the point to it. Besides, if you bought plates, it'd cost you 150m which is the aporximate market value of a relic.

Relic
Coins=8k
Byne=8k
Shells=6k
Lv75 Total=121~142Mil

Most expensive relic is the gun according to these prices which are around or slightly higher than Phoenix average. Average relic cost is 130Mil or so, not 150. As for arguing that part, yes, I argue the part I saw incorrect. As for the rest of it I think it goes without saying that supply is a problem, same with Alexandrite. If they were to increase the amount of Plates however it would need to be by a large number, even only doubling it would not make much difference because the increased numbers would drive more people to try getting them keeping prices the same or rising them higher along with the demand which would lead to potential shortage again.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

which is the aporximate market value of a relic.Last I checked 142 is approximately 150, but you're traying from teh point of the thread here and still going on about something COMPLETELY different then the half a sentance you quoted earlier. Something needs to be fixed about plates and it's not the quantity.

[Monchat]

If you think the lv 95 trials are hard, you didn't look into the 99 trials. HMP trials are fine, because the HMP price is comparable to what you have to do to get a 95 relic, and 90 trials cost almost nothing even if you buy POP items (I spent less than 15 Mils for AH pops on daurdabla trials for example.)

What's more HMP is very common in bazars, the supply is there if you are willing to pay for 120~150k.

The 99 trials are bullcrap. Riftcinder is especially rare and hunted down in bazars by many people, price jump to retarded amounts. 99 trials for relics are the opposite: umbral marrows are massively farmed, and their bazar prices has droped a lot in the last 2 months.

Whether you think those upgrades are not worth it or are worth is not the issue. If you want the best weapon for your job, you have to make them. I see many people claim they are not worth it because they "only" give DMG lol. DMG is awsome. It means in any situation, melee or WS, hard mobs or lower mobs, your damage improves, contrary to +STR/DEX/ATT/ACC etc. Vereth and spharai get 10~15% dmg up from 90 to 95 which is a lot.

I'd aggree though, that Daurdabla lv 95 trials is a masochist joke form the Devs because the upgrades are actually = to nothing (skill doesnt mean anything anymore to brd). They are just a painful step for the true upgrade: lv 99 trials.

[tyrantsyn]

Tell that to all of us who finished the Old School Chains of Promathia storyline. Then ask me if I care if SE changes the requirements for getting your Relics / Mythics / Empyreans to 95 / 99. I mean I'm glad you love the game so much that you felt the need / desire to take the time to get everything to make your weapon, but seriously if you're going to whine if they change the requirements / drop rate of Alexandrite and or Heavy Metal Plates, then you need to reexamine why you're playing the game. If they change the requirements , who cares... oh wait You do because then you won't be so special anymore.

Relax sweet heart before you pop a blood vessel and have a stroke.

@ Sparthos An I agree with you, I do think there need's to be more option past VW to get these and the 95-99 items.

[svengalis]

I think the number required is alright, when you can get 6-11 HMP on something like a qilin run, but I agree the drop rate should be considered for adjustment. I have all priepts for VW, and did Qilin 18 times yesterday, and didn't get a single HMP. Each Qilin had capped lights, and I traded 3 rubi cells each time and even 3 cobalt on 4 of the runs. If you received 10-20 for doing that many pops each time, 1500 at least seems obtainable, especially considering you can buy them from bazaars.

I should note this was the worst drop rate i've experienced with HMP, I usually at the very least get a pouch of 3 from a x6 Qilin or Aello run.

Sounds like you would be better off just taking the cruor and turn it into Gil and just buy the plates.

[Vivivivi]

Sounds like you would be better off just taking the cruor and turn it into Gil and just buy the plates.

Oh I wasn't even after the HMP for myself, I was just reporting back how often they dropped in a lengthy run. I don't plan on taking an empyrean weapon past level 90 for a long time if ever.

[svengalis]

You guys are blaming SE because PLAYERS have decided the price of the plates? Correct me if I am wrong. Stop buying the plates at ridiculous prices and they will drop.

[svengalis]

I finished 99 Ukon in March, that was what - around 6 months after the trial was implemented, so I'd hardly call myself an early adopter. Furthermore, it would have taken a lot longer if not for the fact I'm blessed with some amazing friends who gave me a total of 600ish plates that they'd gotten from fights.




Wrong. If the amount is lowered, I'll get angry because it would mean I have wasted millions of gil, and my awesome friends might as well have thrown away all the plates they gave to me.

I would in fact welcome it if SE makes heavy metal plates (and riftdross/riftcinder) easier to get. I have friends that want to upgrade their weapon(s), and I'd love to see them do just that.

No one forced you to buy the plates that was your own decision.

[Demon6324236]

If you think the lv 95 trials are hard, you didn't look into the 99 trials. HMP trials are fine, because the HMP price is comparable to what you have to do to get a 95 relic, and 90 trials cost almost nothing even if you buy POP items (I spent less than 15 Mils for AH pops on daurdabla trials for example.)

What's more HMP is very common in bazars, the supply is there if you are willing to pay for 120~150k.

Let me just quickly point out, that anything more than 100k for plates and they are no where near the same cost as a Relic. At 100k its 150Mil vs 121~142Mil. At 110k its 165Mil, with 120k its 180Mil. 150k each would be completely stupid pricing because once you get that high you are talking about 225Mil, which is more than 1.7 times the price of an average Relic.


The 99 trials are bullcrap. Riftcinder is especially rare and hunted down in bazars by many people, price jump to retarded amounts. 99 trials for relics are the opposite: umbral marrows are massively farmed, and their bazar prices has droped a lot in the last 2 months.

Yes, lv99 trials are bad as well, but not alot of point in complaining about them when alot of people don't actually make it that far due to the problem of Plates.


Whether you think those upgrades are not worth it or are worth is not the issue. If you want the best weapon for your job, you have to make them. I see many people claim they are not worth it because they "only" give DMG lol. DMG is awsome. It means in any situation, melee or WS, hard mobs or lower mobs, your damage improves, contrary to +STR/DEX/ATT/ACC etc. Vereth and spharai get 10~15% dmg up from 90 to 95 which is a lot.

I'd aggree though, that Daurdabla lv 95 trials is a masochist joke form the Devs because the upgrades are actually = to nothing (skill doesnt mean anything anymore to brd). They are just a painful step for the true upgrade: lv 99 trials.

Thats the thing, they are worth upgrading just not at the cost were talking about. The DMG is good to have but when it comes down to it I ask myself. Do I want my Almace to get lv95, or would I rather make another job of mine a relic from start to lv95 for less money even? The trials become worthless at that time because while they offer benefits they aren't worth the cost.

Just a final note by the way, I'm sorry to say but your claim at the inability to find Cinder/Dross is somewhat belittled by the fact you actually wasted enough Cinder to get afterglow on your H2H...

[Demon6324236]

You guys are blaming SE because PLAYERS have decided the price of the plates? Correct me if I am wrong. Stop buying the plates at ridiculous prices and they will drop.

Supply and demand effect pricing. Currently the supply and demand is keeping prices at 100~120k each. If SE made the amount needed smaller or increased the supply to a proper amount the price would decrease with time.

[svengalis]

You guys kill me with the " cost" of these weapons. They don't cost anything if you play the game and farm the materials yourself.

[Demon6324236]

You guys kill me with the " cost" of these weapons. They don't cost anything if you play the game and farm the materials yourself.

On average T3 Jeuno parties I see 2 plates in 6 kills. On average T3 Zilart I see 1 pouch for every 10~12 kills. Farming the materials would take roughly 4500 T3 Jeuno NMs, or with extreme luck, around 1200 T3 Zilart NMs.

[detlef]

You guys kill me with the " cost" of these weapons. They don't cost anything if you play the game and farm the materials yourself.Your statement is idiotic. It's essentially impossible to farm up the HMP yourself.

Also, if you believe that SE isn't going to lower the 1500 number and that HMP will not come from any other sources in the future then you would be foolish not to be buying now. Right now, VW is still going (mostly) strong. Pulse cells have extended VW's lifetime a bit. But if SE introduces gear that is accessible to the masses and surpasses pulse gear then VW will die. And the HMP market will dry up.

[Reiterpallasch]

Provided you get a 30 one-hundred piece loan (and most do), you can easily knock off about 20m+ for the cost of a relic.

[Nala]

As one of those people that have actually done that trial, I'd be really p****d if they did lower the requirement, I have to admit that. Then again, SE has trolled people this way before (relic trials) and if they did decide to lower the number of plates there's nothing I can do about it.

Would be better if plates were easier to come by - higher drop rates, alternative sources.

simple fix announce the change give a 1-2 week grace period disable the 1500 trial allow any 95's to trade in for the difference then implement the new 95 trial, that way peeps who were real gogetters don't get royally screwed and we can still fix an otherwise crappy decision on the dev teams part.

[Monchat]

You guys kill me with the " cost" of these weapons. They don't cost anything if you play the game and farm the materials yourself.

lol. It costs you time then... and it was obvious from the first week the trials were released that it would be impossible to farm solo (oh yeah lets farm 2 years for HMP when farmign the gil takes 1 month in dynamis).



Just a final note by the way, I'm sorry to say but your claim at the inability to find Cinder/Dross is somewhat belittled by the fact you actually wasted enough Cinder to get afterglow on your H2H...

That's why I know the best how hard they are to get. As soon as 2 ou 3 people buy them at the same time, they do not pop in bazars you have to shout all day. I felt lucky when I found 3 in bazars after the JP go to sleep.

[saevel]

1500 is ridiculous with current game design. SE needs to either A) Lower the amount, or B) radically increase supply. Insert HMPs into the drop slots of the other items, insert pouch's into everything higher then Jeuno T3.

[svengalis]

Your statement is idiotic. It's essentially impossible to farm up the HMP yourself.

Also, if you believe that SE isn't going to lower the 1500 number and that HMP will not come from any other sources in the future then you would be foolish not to be buying now. Right now, VW is still going (mostly) strong. Pulse cells have extended VW's lifetime a bit. But if SE introduces gear that is accessible to the masses and surpasses pulse gear then VW will die. And the HMP market will dry up.

Its impossible for you to set up a VW T3 shout?

[Demon6324236]

Its impossible for you to set up a VW T3 shout?

More than 1000 which would be required? Yes

[detlef]

Assuming a 25% drop rate for HMP from Jeuno T3, one can expect 6000 fights to collect 1500 plates. That's a hell of a lot of voiddust. About 120m if you assume 20k per. Please do not suggest doing Campaign for AN because under ideal conditions you can earn enough AN to pay for fewer than 3 voiddust per hour. And it's hard to justify doing an hour of Campaign battles for 60k worth of voiddust.

Your suggestion that we should "play the game" to obtain the HMP directly through drops instead of buying them is idiotic.

[Monchat]

its the good old noob mentality that do not understand trade in this game. Real fishermen fish their own moat carps. Why PL a craft with the AH when you could mine all your ores!! lol.


'cos my time is more precious than my gil.

[svengalis]

Supply and demand effect pricing. Currently the supply and demand is keeping prices at 100~120k each. If SE made the amount needed smaller or increased the supply to a proper amount the price would decrease with time.

It also has to do with the fact that not many people do VW. I see the same people shouting every single day. When I join the alliance it's pretty the same people who do all other VW to. If more people did it then it wouldn't even be an issue. Really it's not SE fault that the players choose not to do the events.

[svengalis]

Assuming a 25% drop rate for HMP from Jeuno T3, one can expect 6000 fights to collect 1500 plates. That's a hell of a lot of voiddust. About 120m if you assume 20k per. Please do not suggest doing Campaign for AN because under ideal conditions you can earn enough AN to pay for fewer than 3 voiddust per hour. And it's hard to justify doing an hour of Campaign battles for 60k worth of voiddust.

Your suggestion that we should "play the game" to obtain the HMP directly through drops instead of buying them is idiotic.

LOL the game has to have time syncs or it will be Abyssea all over again: People getting done with content then begging for more. You guys are funny. Rome wasn't built in a day.

Think about it(I said this once and I'll say it again) If you got all your plates done would you continue to keep shouting for VW T3 runs??? Like I see some of the same people doing everyday. Not only does requiring 1500 plates gives the player a since of accomplishment it also extends the life of the event for those who wish to make their characters the best they can possible be. Will SE lower this requirement in the future or make the plates easier to obtain? Probably but I am sure they won't do it until they can add content in the game that could make our characters reach an even higher threshold.

[Demon6324236]

It also has to do with the fact that not many people do VW. I see the same people shouting every single day. When I join the alliance it's pretty the same people who do all other VW to. If more people did it then it wouldn't even be an issue. Really it's not SE fault that the players choose not to do the events.

Rewards effect motivation, motivation effects participation. SE gave rewards that are few and far between, with low drop rates and only 1 spot they can possibly drop in of your box. This leads to alot of people not actually doing it events as much as they might. For instance something I said back near the start of this thread...


Simple fix to supply if they wanted. Plates can drop in junk slots, plates always drop in HQ slots if it is not a HQ item. In the case of Pouch NMs pouches would still be HQ drops in the HQ slot, anything that is junk in the HQ slot should be a normal plate still. Abyssea gave 1 item on every kill always and you only required 50~75 of them, that number is 1/20th at most of the plate requirement I think it fair we always get at least 1 plate on NMs that drop them if not more.

If plates dropped like this all NMs would be worth fighting in some way. Also all spots would have a reason, as I'm sure you know everyone wants capped red light, but the rest dont matter, they are nice to have higher but they are meaningless for the most part, as are cells that raise them such as cobalt. Rewards on VW are the reason for it not being done, there is alot of waste throughout the event that SE does not fix, or fixes in minor and somewhat foolish ways.

[Demon6324236]

That's why I know the best how hard they are to get. As soon as 2 ou 3 people buy them at the same time, they do not pop in bazars you have to shout all day. I felt lucky when I found 3 in bazars after the JP go to sleep.

I mean no offense but honestly I can understand they are hard to get, but it makes it no easier when a single player is taking 3000(50 lv99 Emps worth) all to themselves...

[svengalis]

Rewards effect motivation, motivation effects participation. SE gave rewards that are few and far between, with low drop rates and only 1 spot they can possibly drop in of your box. This leads to alot of people not actually doing it events as much as they might. For instance something I said back near the start of this thread...



If plates dropped like this all NMs would be worth fighting in some way. Also all spots would have a reason, as I'm sure you know everyone wants capped red light, but the rest dont matter, they are nice to have higher but they are meaningless for the most part, as are cells that raise them such as cobalt. Rewards on VW are the reason for it not being done, there is alot of waste throughout the event that SE does not fix, or fixes in minor and somewhat foolish ways.

Then it would be kind of lame honestly. Players would choose the easiest monsters then spam them over and over. At least with the T3s they are not too much of pushovers and you still need a decent setup to beat them.

I like to have some sort of challenge when playing games otherwise it just seems kinda pointless.

[Demon6324236]

Then it would be kind of lame honestly. Players would choose the easiest monsters then spam them over and over. At least with the T3s they are not too much of pushovers and you still need a decent setup to beat them.

I like to have some sort of challenge when playing games otherwise it just seems kinda pointless.

True, thats why drop rates for higher tiers should be higher or certain NMs(cities, possibly T1~2 Jeuno) should not drop them. However many NMs are untouched, as it has been said before Aht & Tav NMs are almost never fought and many of them will never be heavily fought because the rewards are not worth it to people. Not many people want the items from them, so they are impossible to do.

As for people doing the easy thing that is what already happens anyways. Zilart is a great example of it. Qilin shouts are very common. Uptala shouts are less common but they do happen every 1~2 days or so. Aello is a hard fight by compare, and is only done 1, possibly 2 times a week. The rewards for Aello are some nice WS legs, a good nuking earring, and a sword that is one of the best in the game, but sadly they are almost impossible because people do not like the hard fight.

So far as it stands alot of the plate drops actually make no sense, for instance how for some reason T3s drop plates however the next tier up does not, and none do till T6. T6s are even worse, they are much harder than T3s, and harder than Zilart NMs, however they still only drop a single plate. Plates need to be more common, plates need to be able to be gotten in trash spots so they have a reason to the common player, rather than just going to NPCs when the run ends, plates need to be changed.

[Registeel]

I am sorely disappointed that they never added more VNMs with single plates, metal pouches beyond zilart (I was very hopeful that the bosses of ToAU/CoP would since the pathes are similar to the Zilart one), and more riftdross/cinder NMs.

It's frustrating, because plates are only going to go up, and riftcinder is already going for 900k - 1 mil on Odin. Lowering the number required is pleasant to think about, but I really think increasing plate drop rates on current VWNMs and adding more single / pouch drops to other NMs would be more fair. Alas, I feel like it's too late to pray for these things.

[Helel]

Yeah wtf at riftcinder price...

I've done armageddon 99 but I have no issues with them increasing the drop rate. Really quite stupid that the pouches only drop from the zilart mobs while single plates drop from mobs that are far more difficult.

I still get a kick out of the devs thinking that the empyrean trial 95>99 would be the hardest out of the three though. Anyone with a brain could have called them out on that one. You can basically complete the 95-99 trial at the cost of one umbral marrow.

[SpankWustler]

Heavy Metal Plates aren't a huge issue now, but I can just imagine the nightmare that collecting 1500 will become as time passes and Voidwatch becomes a more and more minor part of endgame. It doesn't help that even within Voidwatch, what drops pouches or even singles is limited using rather byzantine logic.

Collecting Heavy Metal Plates won't be on nearly the same scale as collecting Alexandrite at present date, but it'll be the same principle. It's impossible to buy lots of something if only a small quantity is for sale.

[scaevola]

They won't mix up plate distribution because they want people to keep doing Voidwatch in the years to come, like Dynamis.

That I think this will fail to keep players doing Voidwatch despite it being more rewarding and much less tedious than Dynamis was before the revamp is a credit to the players rather than a slight to Voidwatch, but there it is.

[Camiie]

I guess in another 5-7 years we'll get a VW revamp that will be intended to improve the availability of plates but won't really accomplish anything.

[Zumi]

I wouldn't mind them lowering the number 1500 does seem sort of absurd. As someone who did all their relic WS trails pre nerf and 1 month later had the number reduced by 90% I wasn't really pissed off because I thought those WS trails were such bs even though I wasted hundreds of hours doing them.

The way it is now if you are serious about doing plates its better to do dynamis every day you can make about on average 1.5m a day solo so around 100 days to get enough gil to buy the plates you need. Then do some VW occasionally when you feel like it because people will usually sell their plates really cheap at runs.

But actually doing dynamis for gil is a lot better for getting plates then actually doing VW. But if your main focus is doing dynamis for gil you will get done in about 3 months. Dynamis is the best source of making gil currently in the game.

Now this is why you don't see that many 99 empyreans, you can do what I said but then people feel like they rather get another relic for another job rather then use the gil for plates. You have to be really devoted to that job and weapon you are making to spend the gil on it.

[svengalis]

"Qilin x6 WHM BLM BLUx2 DD(Emp/Relic) Only /tell" Another thing, you guys only want certain jobs in the alliance with certain weapons. You are putting a very large player base out of the equation because not everyone has Emp/Relic DD and some people only play those jobs. So again if you guys want to start complaining about the prices of the plates please start with the player base first.

[svengalis]

I am sorely disappointed that they never added more VNMs with single plates, metal pouches beyond zilart (I was very hopeful that the bosses of ToAU/CoP would since the pathes are similar to the Zilart one), and more riftdross/cinder NMs.

It's frustrating, because plates are only going to go up, and riftcinder is already going for 900k - 1 mil on Odin. Lowering the number required is pleasant to think about, but I really think increasing plate drop rates on current VWNMs and adding more single / pouch drops to other NMs would be more fair. Alas, I feel like it's too late to pray for these things.

I think they will go down because as time goes on more and more people will gain access to the events and more will come into circulation, if not again blame the player base not SE.

[Zumi]

"Qilin x6 WHM BLM BLUx2 DD(Emp/Relic) Only /tell" Another thing, you guys only want certain jobs in the alliance with certain weapons. You are putting a very large player base out of the equation because not everyone has Emp/Relic DD and some people only play those jobs. So again if you guys want to start complaining about the prices of the plates please start with the player base first.

Send people tells anyway I do not have a reilc or emp for all my jobs but I send people tells anyway, I do get in 95% of the time. Often people making these have a hard time getting people and they are willing to take people that don't have a legendary weapon.

[Demon6324236]

Send people tells anyway I do not have a reilc or emp for all my jobs but I send people tells anyway, I do get in 95% of the time. Often people making these have a hard time getting people and they are willing to take people that don't have a legendary weapon.

Also many people do not care about Emp/Relic even if its in the shout due to Merit WSs being how strong they are. Its just simply a habit people never got out of I think.

[Mirabelle]

I keep hoping SE will increase supply or decrease requirement but if they don't I'll wait until Plates become rare during the new expansion, sell mine off and buy a relic.

It's already hard to get Qilin parties going these days. Once the new expansion hits, VW will be a ghostland.

[detlef]

I think they will go down because as time goes on more and more people will gain access to the events and more will come into circulation, if not again blame the player base not SE.What the H? More plates will come into circulation, I will grant you that. However, as VW becomes less popular, the rate at which plates enter the system will slow down. But why would the price go down? A single empyrean weapon costs 1500 plates. Every empy owner can potentially use them. The only thing keeping prices semi-reasonable is that people view 1500 as too daunting a task to bother with. If VW slows down and fewer plates are being created, people will start snapping them up wherever they can.

I'm not sure why you you bring up "more people gaining access to the event." Anybody can participate in any non-Provenance VW fight from the very beginning. However, any new players doing VW for the first time are countered by the loss of players who have gotten what they want or have given up. That's why fewer people do VW now.

Also, blame the player base? What? Because fewer people will be doing an event after capping out on gear or becoming frustrated? Because prices of riftcinder are high because the majority of the desirable empyreans require it? I don't even... I think you enjoy getting people worked up on the internet by posting badly. You're doing a good job of that because it's keeping me interested in this thread.

[Demon6324236]

Honestly I still don't understand why I am supposed to blame the players, last I knew it was SEs job to make content both rewarding and enjoyable to make us want to do it. VW does not fulfill this and thats why I wont blame players, and instead blame the source of the content itself.

[FrankReynolds]

http://i.qkme.me/3q5plx.jpg

[Afania]

Heavy Metal Plates aren't a huge issue now, but I can just imagine the nightmare that collecting 1500 will become as time passes and Voidwatch becomes a more and more minor part of endgame. It doesn't help that even within Voidwatch, what drops pouches or even singles is limited using rather byzantine logic.

Collecting Heavy Metal Plates won't be on nearly the same scale as collecting Alexandrite at present date, but it'll be the same principle. It's impossible to buy lots of something if only a small quantity is for sale.

I think you worried too much.
From what I've seen HMP on our server actually increased recently, and caused price to drop a bit lower.
Ppl seems to spam Qilin very often for gil. It's easy to kill, doesn't require a full alliance, can be killed with various setup, and after we know about /fume + no more merit magic proc, it's even easier to make lower tier VW pt when we don't have to worry about procs.

[detlef]

The addition of pulse cells has increased interest in VW recently. But that won't keep people doing VW forever.

[FrankReynolds]

The addition of pulse cells has increased interest in VW recently. But that won't keep people doing VW forever.

Lol 5-10 million per cell on cerberus. Who the hell is buying these things?

[detlef]

On Valefor, the body cells have settled into the 1-3m range. Weapon cells are still stupidly rare.

Edit: Just checked your Cerb prices, those are pretty crazy to me. But Valefor has always been one of the cheaper servers.

[svengalis]

Honestly I still don't understand why I am supposed to blame the players, last I knew it was SEs job to make content both rewarding and enjoyable to make us want to do it. VW does not fulfill this and thats why I wont blame players, and instead blame the source of the content itself.

I make a ton of Gil from the drops. Not boatloads of money but enough to keep me afloat. If you don't join for the plates/gear/drops can still always go for the cruor which you can also turn into Gil or Max out your atmacites. Oh and lets not forget the experience points. Doing VW is the fastest way to Max out merits. I don't know what else they could do to get you guys to do the events.

[detlef]

Are you using stones? Buying voiddust? Buying cells?

[Demon6324236]

I make a ton of Gil from the drops. Not boatloads of money but enough to keep me afloat. If you don't join for the plates/gear/drops can still always go for the cruor which you can also turn into Gil or Max out your atmacites. Oh and lets not forget the experience points. Doing VW is the fastest way to Max out merits. I don't what else they could do to get you guys to do the events.

Increase drop rates, put plates in junk slots, make single plates a 100% drop in the HQ slots(unless a rare item drops) on NMs that currently drop them. Make T6 Jueno NMs drop pouches, same with T2 Aht & Tav. Make T1 Aht/Tav drop singles. T4~5 Jeuno drop singles. And finally give T4 City NMs have a 5~10% chance at dropping Plates.

[svengalis]

http://i.qkme.me/3q5plx.jpg

I gave 4 different reasons that anyone should care to do VW. It's up to the players whether they want to take advantage of that.

[svengalis]

Are you using stones? Buying voiddust? Buying cells?

Yes, no and sometimes???

[svengalis]

Honestly I still don't understand why I am supposed to blame the players, last I knew it was SEs job to make content both rewarding and enjoyable to make us want to do it. VW does not fulfill this and thats why I wont blame players, and instead blame the source of the content itself.

Okay my first Qilin run I had the leader chew me out because I didn't have sky warp so I just left the alliance instead of dealing with is whining. NEWSFLASH Not everyone has been playing this game for the last 8 years! I have people in my LS who say they don't do VW because they don't have Emyprean/Relics. This is what I mean when I say it's the players fault, if players stop being douche bags to other players then more people would do the event.

[SpankWustler]

Okay my first Qilin run I had the leader chew me out because I didn't have sky warp so I just left the alliance instead of dealing with is whining. NEWSFLASH Not everyone has been playing this game for the last 8 years! I have people in my LS who say they don't do VW because they don't have Emyprean/Relics. This is what I mean when I say it's the players fault, if players stop being douche bags to other players then more people would do the event.

So...You're saying we should blame you for leaving that alliance and the people in your linkshell who don't do Voidwatch?

You're being awfully hard on yourself and your friends, bro.

[Demon6324236]

Okay my first Qilin run I had the leader chew me out because I didn't have sky warp so I just left the alliance instead of dealing with is whining. NEWSFLASH Not everyone has been playing this game for the last 8 years! I have people in my LS who say they don't do VW because they don't have Emyprean/Relics. This is what I mean when I say it's the players fault, if players stop being douche bags to other players then more people would do the event.

In this case I agree with you. Emp/Relic should not be a reason however, due to the inclusion of the lovely Merit WSs anyone with a high level/DMG weapon and some +1/2 sets, should be just fine to do VW. I am much like this with my DRK, most people will not bother you if you have at least City temps, possible Zilart temps, and the Merit WS @5/5 for the DD job you are coming as.

Wins can be a problem though, I would advise setup ls events for wins, its an easy way to get your LS into it and see what VW involves if they are worried they can not do the job without Emp/Relic. It also gets their foot in the door with it for later on if they are interested. My ls seems to have the same problems as yours, and this is what I have been doing, has seemed to work well for me. Also since you seem to be lacking some wins yourself it would give you a chance to take the group with you not only for their own wins but to farther your own progress as well.

[Demon6324236]

So...You're saying we should blame you for leaving that alliance and the people in your linkshell who don't do Voidwatch?

You're being awfully hard on yourself and your friends, bro.

Nah he has a valid point, people in VW tend to be to picky on some things, I admit Emp/Relic is partly to weed out noobs who leach everything but it does screw alot of good players as well, same thing happens in my ls. Merit WS should remedy this for most, not all, and same with ls progress runs for the linkshell, which is what I have been trying to do for my linkshell.

[detlef]

Yes, no and sometimes???My point on this is if you're using voiddust (and if you've been doing a lot of VW, you are probably using voiddust a lot) that you aren't making as much money as you think. If you buy cells with cruor, you generally can't come out ahead unless you only use rubicund cells. Also, while you'll almost never lose money doing VW, voiddust can take a healthy bite out of your profit margin unless you're fairly lucky with drops.


Nah he has a valid point, people in VW tend to be to picky on some things, I admit Emp/Relic is partly to weed out noobs who leach everything but it does screw alot of good players as well, same thing happens in my ls. Merit WS should remedy this for most, not all, and same with ls progress runs for the linkshell, which is what I have been trying to do for my linkshell.He said he left an alliance because he couldn't be bothered to get his sky warp done and somebody rightly called him on it. It's his linkshell member who say they don't do VW because they don't have empys.

That's beside the point, however, because you don't need an empy to participate in VW. If you have a sensible weapon and good gear, people will not turn you down unless they simply don't need your job. People try for the best setups possible when content is new. Once it's been figured out and/or the demand for the fight is lowered, shout groups will take what they can get.

[Demon6324236]

He said he left an alliance because he couldn't be bothered to get his sky warp done and somebody rightly called him on it.

This is partly why I mentioned the wins, doing wins with his ls would allow him to get Zilart wins and thus, the warp required, unless you mean the sky warp I never bother to use with the crags, haven't used them in a long time so I don't remember if they are exactly annoying or what, I stick to VW.


It's his linkshell member who say they don't do VW because they don't have empys.

Yep, part of his argument on people being picky assholes however, so I threw that detail in as well. ^_^;

[detlef]

Crag warps are much more convenient for Zilart T3. They put you at either MG or Kirin entrance. VW warp puts you at Hall of Gods entrance in Ro'maeve.

[Kysaiana]

I think I've seen exactly one shout ever that specifically asked for empyrean/relic DDs. Maybe it's just Siren, but I don't think it's a wide-spread problem of people being locked out of VW for not having one of those weapons. As far as plate price goes, of course they're set by the players. I suppose you can blame anyone that's willing to pay those prices, but that's pointless because it's just supply and demand. And the supply is far exceeded by the demand. Therefore, high-priced plates. If half the players that owned empyrean weapons actually tried to finish the trial, plate prices would sky-rocket since the demand would be that much higher.

The biggest issue with HMPs is the supply. There simply are not enough of them in circulation or even existence for even a moderate amount of empyrean holders to ever finish the trial. The only reason any one is able to finish at all, despite the cost, is because so few are willing to bother. If everyone that had an empyrean tried to do the trial, no one would finish it. As soon as VW dies out, and it will, HMP will go the way of Alexandrite. Only, you won't be able to grab two buddies and farm them like you can with Alexandrite. And please, don't suggest the weakness items, anyone. Paying 500k, even split 3+ ways, is not a viable option for a chance at something.

[scaevola]

I usually VW on a TP Bonus GK SAM, and I have never once been excluded because of gear. There have even been a few situations where I've been asked if I have a Masa/Amano and I am forced to say I don't, and they take me anyway.

[svengalis]

I usually VW on a TP Bonus GK SAM, and I have never once been excluded because of gear. There have even been a few situations where I've been asked if I have a Masa/Amano and I am forced to say I don't, and they take me anyway.

I usually get ignored when I tell them I don't have emp/relic. Oh and for provenance I don't even bother anymore.

[Trisscar]

Crag warps are much more convenient for Zilart T3. They put you at either MG or Kirin entrance. VW warp puts you at Hall of Gods entrance in Ro'maeve.

This, but what a lot of groups don't understand is that sky warp requires you to be at the ass end of both CoP and RotZ, and (as hard as it is to believe) there are some people out there too lazy to do the work for them (I'm not in this camp, but I digres).

[detlef]

That may be true but Zilart can be done in a day and since we're talking about DDs being shunned, everybody should have a Rajas.

[Siiri]

I usually get ignored when I tell them I don't have emp/relic. Oh and for provenance I don't even bother anymore.

I have been asked one time, when I replied to a shout PIL group that needed a mnk. I told them I didn't have an emp and was then ignored. They asked me no other questions. If they had they would have known I had 2 other emp jobs, provenance clear with 3 capped DD atmacites, ws, tp, impetus gear swaps, black belt, a very good weapon, and all temp items and every VW clear. I just kind of laughed. What amused me more was I had a friend in the group on blm and he dropped because they were too chicken to even tell me no. Well after he dropped I got a tell from the leader-"you have blm right? Want to come blm? " I didn't even bother to respond.

I organized Akvan shouts off and on with a couple ls mates for a few weeks, and never once did I put a emp requirement on it. We always blazed through them with as little pickup drama as possible. I know Akvan is lol, but Pil isn't much more these days. Crazy, lucky for me I usually run VW with my ls and take my wildfire corsair. It was actually the first time I ever offered my mnk to a pickup, just because I was bored and feel its pretty good and strong with capped 3 atmacites and all temps, even if I don't have a vere.