[Suggestion] Consolidating Equip Macros

[Trumpy]

If anyone where played an MUD.. you can't streamline ,acros like you guys think you can. And the more lines you put the more automated it does get.

i read that as you cant put a bunch of commands in one line like /equip body hands legs ect ect in one line.

also ffxi wasnt originally a MUD either. unlike how gear swaps may have been originally unintended or ninja not a tank originally intended but eventually accepted in this same game. (i do see ur /sarcasm thing tho)

[Trumpy]

agreed. and it was also the last 10 pages that everyone involved should have had cooler heads about them and jsut stopped (10 pages ago)

[Arcon]

Either way i seem to be missing what your opinion is on the actual purpose of this thread? would you like to see a way to gear swap every slot in one shot (other than using the windower)?

Yes, and most others do too, before this thread became a steaming flame pile we said so. We actually had a good discussion at one point. Until SE spoiled the party.

[Trumpy]

speaking of ways things are read or interpreted and off topicness:

about runic fencer, (i know we know nothing concrete) they said they would use runes to do things. did they (as in SE) actually say runes would be consumable items (like ninja tools)? I was out of town and everything i read when i had pc access just said they used runes. yet for a while every single post about it i read seemed to believe they were consumable items. I may have missed a few sources of info there. Id like to hope its more of a charge system like SCH has on strategms as we already have a consumable item tank and dont need another one even if it works differently.

Just checkin if i missed something there

[Trumpy]

yea SE responce didnt seem to concern any of the discussion we were having. maybe a couple posts mentioned linkin macros to summon other macros somehow, so that was the responce we got, nevermind the 100 posts about simply swaping more gears with one macro than we can currently

[Trumpy]

watch SE reply to my runic fencer question in this thread now

[Zerich]

watch SE reply to my runic fencer question in this thread now

they seem to not monitor much else, tbh

[0nionKn1ght]

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/popcorn_2.gif

[Doombringer]

i can't believe that in 27 pages nobody has thought to mention that MMOs are a service. and the customers either:

A) want an expanded macro system.
or
B) are onionknight


that's really all that matters. every day i care a little less about SEs vision for the game and a little more about MY vision for the game, and in MY vision i don't need to hit 6 buttons to cast a spell.

you could call this selfish but at the end of the day i'm PAYING for this. don't i have a right to ask for things? better macros are a simple playability upgrade. it's not game breaking in any aspect...

[Nala]

i can't believe that in 27 pages nobody has thought to mention that MMOs are a service. and the customers either:

A) want an expanded macro system.
or
B) are rosina and onionknight


that's really all that matters. every day i care a little less about SEs vision for the game and a little more about MY vision for the game, and in MY vision i don't need to hit 6 buttons to cast a spell.

you could call this selfish but at the end of the day i'm PAYING for this. don't i have a right to ask for things? better macros are a simple playability upgrade. it's not game breaking in any aspect...

well put, getting sick of peeps saying you're gonna get what they give you and like it.

[Iakothm]

yea SE responce didnt seem to concern any of the discussion we were having. maybe a couple posts mentioned linkin macros to summon other macros somehow, so that was the responce we got, nevermind the 100 posts about simply swaping more gears with one macro than we can currently

uhh what are you talking about?



Hey guys,

I just wanted to let you know that we understand everyone's viewpoints as to why swapping additional gear via macros would be favorable, and to some, it may not.

The following policies were established from the beginning after thoroughly exploring the macro feature:

1. The fundamental rule is that macros execute one action per line. (Excluding “/wait”)
2. It is not possible to automate things nor call other macros within a macro.

Due to the aforementioned reasons, we do not plan to expand macros and we appreciate your understanding.


This clearly states its not gonna happen both of them.

[FrankReynolds]

uhh what are you talking about?





This clearly states its not gonna happen both of them.

1 action = swap into weapon skill gear.

[Arcon]

1 action = swap into weapon skill gear.

That's how it should be.

[Rosina]

Um...... I was actually in agreement with the topic >.>;; I never said I GS was cheating. And i don't Brag. All I asked is to not be insulted for how I play. Also, if no oned cares.. then inuslting me was pointless. As for the MUD comment, MUD are text based mmo. And heavily make use of macro scipts. Like making an attack macro, then making a chain macro of said macro. What you guys are asking for is a streamlined comand that can't work as the sever will not be able to read and excute it. aka /equip hand "item" ONLY works as a singular line.
Thats why suggested my suggestion. Having a equipment book would fix the issue. All you would need to do is set up the gear you need, then use the command in the macro. that is a full set of gear under a single command. And here is the thing, FFXIV is getting something similar as my suggestion. So technically SE alread has basic code work for it, just need to tweek it for ffxi and has a text comand for it.

[tyrantsyn]

Hey guys,

I just wanted to let you know that we understand everyone's viewpoints as to why swapping additional gear via macros would be favorable, and to some, it may not.

The following policies were established from the beginning after thoroughly exploring the macro feature:

1. The fundamental rule is that macros execute one action per line. (Excluding “/wait”)
2. It is not possible to automate things nor call other macros within a macro.

Due to the aforementioned reasons, we do not plan to expand macros and we appreciate your understanding.



This clearly states its not gonna happen both of them.

Like I said early, this doesn't state they can't increase the line's in each macro. Which would help the problem tremendously.

[Doombringer]

Um...... I was actually in agreement with the topic.

fair enough, i shall amend my statement.

though in my defense you seem to have been fighting pretty hard for your right to not swap gear. which seems like a very anti-macro position to be in.

[0nionKn1ght]

i can't believe that in 27 pages nobody has thought to mention that MMOs are a service. and the customers either:

A) want an expanded macro system.
or
B) are onionknight


that's really all that matters. every day i care a little less about SEs vision for the game and a little more about MY vision for the game, and in MY vision i don't need to hit 6 buttons to cast a spell.

you could call this selfish but at the end of the day i'm PAYING for this. don't i have a right to ask for things? better macros are a simple playability upgrade. it's not game breaking in any aspect...

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7dzsxxKCv1qgt3m7.gif

[Kiriah]

man id kill for this. the majority of my jobs have to have two macros for one command (ex 2 macros for ws two for back to tp set) and that's not including all the elemental obis, gorgets, sorc rings and the rest. not to mention our pdt mdt sets, its too much! i hate that you have to use a third party for the ability to decent swap outs. As for the mention of XIV, people there do try to change gear for things but its much more clunky. The XI players of XIV constantly whine about this loss of gear swapping to be more powerful. As for me, well i welcome the extra inventory in xi, but we could do so much better dmg and have a use for so many more drops if we could swap better.

[Jackstin]

Well I've changed my stance and think they should allow full gear swaps. Its feasible but inconvenient for people to do full gear swaps on Vanilla (might try it myself), so they should remove the inconvenience, because thats all it is.

Don't think they sould go full spellcast route. As far as I'm concerned, automated midcast etc is full on cheating.

[Dragoy]

As for the MUD comment, MUD are text based mmo. And heavily make use of macro scipts. Like making an attack macro, then making a chain macro of said macro. What you guys are asking for is a streamlined comand that can't work as the sever will not be able to read and excute it. aka /equip hand "item" ONLY works as a singular line.

I can't really tell how well comparing a MUD to something like FFXI works, even though one could say it started around the era of the GMuds.

The macro syntax does resemble the MACRO-10 language that dates way back, and which was used for many a MUD, but in any case, when it comes to programming, there really are no limits except for your imagination, and your want for it. There are the do, until, else, if, and so on, to execute commands one after another.

A simple line for bash could look like something like this:

date | cowsay && uname -a && eix mud

Which would in my system 'pipe' (could think of it as a relay, passing a command to another) the command 'date' to 'cowsay', display a nice ASCII cow stating the time and date, and then comes the &&, meaning it will execute the next command when, and if, the first one completes without any errors. Then comes 'uname -a' providing system information, and 'eix mud' after that searching the Portage Tree for ebuilds with the pattern 'mud' in their name and displaying the results.

Point being: impossible is nothing!

In the case of FFXI, it would likely be most easy to simply increase the amount of lines we have. It's actually along the lines of what you mentioned: “they already have something for XIV”, but it's a whole different beast, being a 'bit' more modern. In FFXI, they probably try not to mess with the code much as it is, and it would quite definitely have to be something written specifically for FFXI. That is to say, having something for XIV doesn't automagically make it easy to deploy over here, at the FFXI-camp.


What was I talking about again?
Nothing ! !! !

I think it seems more or less like we are saying no, while the developers are not listening, or in other words, not in the possession of the want for it, which I will not understand, ever. Improving the macro, would improve the gaming experience. There's no other conclusion at all, I am sure!

I refuse to believe that they are oblivious about how much this feature is disliked, even if it's not complained about that much (due to users taking roundabouts past the issue, no doubt).


/etc/init.d/sleepymutterings stop && /etc/init.d/sleep start && poweroff

[Rosina]

DRag... you eve ran a DOS pc? There are infact limits to what a pc can read digitaly.... Macros work the same from mud to mmo spaning from 1990s till now, no matter the game the macro systym is generally the same. Meaning 1 action per line. anymore and there can be confliction. Also if anyone read the interview SE has to really scrape space to give us a 5th expac.

[SharMarali]

Back to the original topic, I think out of all of the suggestions I've seen, the thing that would be most helpful and least likely to be exploited in some unexpected way would be if SE would allow us to save gearsets. Equip a set of gear, type /gearset "WAR WS" and that gearset is considered your WAR WS set. Equip another set of gear, type /gearset "WAR TP" and so on. Allow saving of something like 30 sets of gear (I know it wouldn't be enough for some people, but let's be realistic) and people can use /equip gearset "WAR TP" in their macros instead of a separate line for each piece of gear.

I would love to see something like this implemented. We're not asking for automation, we just want to be able to change equipment (if we choose to play that way) without hitting 3 macros.

[Byrth]

Don't think they should go full spellcast route. As far as I'm concerned, automated midcast etc is full on cheating.

I don't think they should design a system where some gear is only useful precast, some gear is only useful midcast, and some gear is only useful after the cast if they don't want to implement a way to automate those changes. I know we're all used to it, but how does hitting 2 macros to change our gear for actions (and then 2 macros to change back) make the game more enjoyable? How does having to macro gear instead of automating it make the game more enjoyable? Why does SE keep adding equipment that is inconsistent with the design of the game unless you automate equipment swaps?


Take Waltzes, for instance. The largest benefit of Waltzes over Cures (back when they were actually used) was that Waltzes are a close approximation of instant and cures take time. However, it takes time to swap to Waltz Potency equipment using in-game macros before using your Waltz and this really closes the gap between -Spellcasting Time Cures and Waltzes. Should you be TPing in your Waltz Potency gear when in a healing role? Should you just not bother getting Waltz Potency gear that you can't TP in? I'd hope that the answer to both of these questions is "No." The game needs an automated midcast (which is faster than vanilla macros) in order for the Waltz design to be reasonable.


Take Weapon Skills, for instance. People typically TP and WS in different sets, but in high Haste situations people with in-game macros end up TPing in their WS sets more often than they think (especially if they're using two macro swaps for WS gear). A round here or there, but in high haste situations any round in your WS set is going to take twice as long as in your TP set (75% Haste in TP set -> 50% Haste in WS set). If you have a 4-hit build in Voidwatch and one round every cycle is in your WS set, you take as long to get TP as a 5-hit (and do one melee swing less damage). If moving from a 5-hit to a 4-hit effectively increases your WS frequency (and thus net WS damage) by 33%, you have to wonder if it's even worth swapping gear for WSs on the vanilla client in high Haste situations. If you automate the swaps, it's entirely repeatable and you can be sure that your gear switches back to TP before the WS delay ends.

[Jackstin]

You don't need entire gear swaps to make use of precast and midcast. Just a couple will do, and are why the pieces exist in the first place. If you're trying to argue that this game has essentially been designed for spellcast you're kidding yourself.

On a slightly different note, how do you think the new UI will affect this, specifically the hot bar?

[cidbahamut]

You don't need entire gear swaps to make use of precast and midcast.

Then you're doing it wrong.

[FrankReynolds]

You don't need entire gear swaps to make use of precast and midcast. Just a couple will do, and are why the pieces exist in the first place. If you're trying to argue that this game has essentially been designed for spellcast you're kidding yourself.

On a slightly different note, how do you think the new UI will affect this, specifically the hot bar?

I don't think he was suggesting that they designed it for spellcast. I think he was implying that they did not take precautions when designing gear. I'm sure from SEs standpoint, we should all be making decisions about what gear to wear based on only being able to swap a few pieces. Unfortunately, that has not been the case for a very long time and probably never will be again. So when they design gear that is only good for fastcast and gear that has magic attack for example, instead of having people put the piece they like the best into their 5 gear lines, people make 2 macros or use spellcast, where SE thought they would choose between the two.

[Nala]

More specifically it makes no sense when you posses both the fast cast and the MAB peice to not use them both, its similar to choosing between haste gear and ws gear as a melee, why would you tp in ws gear or ws in tp gear because of a macro limitation?

People have long since decided max/min is the way to go, aka utilizing (or abusing depending on your stand point) the hell out of all gear that enhances anything you do.

[FrankReynolds]

More specifically it makes no sense when you posses both the fast cast and the MAB peice to not use them both, its similar to choosing between haste gear and ws gear as a melee, why would you tp in ws gear or ws in tp gear because of a macro limitation?

People have long since decided max/min is the way to go, aka utilizing (or abusing depending on your stand point) the hell out of all gear that enhances anything you do.

Basically boils down to this: They think you should have to choose the most important stat and stick with that. Spellcast and or intricate macro designs disagree.

I personally think they should both add gear that is good for multiple purposes (like the new stave) and give people more macro lines. Some better storage couldn't hurt either.

[Nala]

When scars first came out i thought they might have started to get it, gear that was almost if not nearly all purpose (empyrean sets), but they have since deviated and gone back to extremely situational gear again. for example enhance cure potency received, that necklace that gives slow when charmed, enhance cursna effect items, did they expect people to full time these peices??

Most of them did not offer any other support stats either, making their only use that exact situation. Further more how did they expect us to properly utilize these pieces? without spell cast to automate swapping them in for you, "one second on that cure, i need to get my curepotrec gear on..." furthermore considering spell cast is reactionary by itself you'd have to use another program on top of it to detect incoming outside influences (i could be mistaken i have no experience with that other program)

[Jackstin]

Basically boils down to this: They think you should have to choose the most important stat and stick with that. Spellcast and or intricate macro designs disagree.

I personally think they should both add gear that is good for multiple purposes (like the new stave) and give people more macro lines. Some better storage couldn't hurt either.

I agree. People are so obsessed with maximising performance that they are willing to resort to cheating. On the other hand most of the gear we see is situational, and given our gear swap options are so limited, it is little wonder that people do use windower. More multipurpose gear and a few more macro lines is exactly what I would prescribe.

But honestly, spellcast is an abuse. If SE gave us the kind of options that are being asked for in this thread, I could see a large number of people giving up on windower. However I don't see the spellcasters ever giving up their power.

[FrankReynolds]

Yeah, I don't think people will ever get rid of spellcast once they have it. Could you imagine having to rewrite full macros for like 10-15 jobs? That server side macro storage has saved my ass a few times when I've installed ona new computer, but it won't convert from spellcast.

[Jackstin]

@Nala

Surely you can use the enhance cursna items with in game macros. I know I do.

But yeah far too much situational stuff. Not that it excuses resorting to spellcast, but it makes it more understandable. After all, people even use cheats in games like GTA which are on the whole very well designed.

[Nala]

GTA has the cheats designed into the game, further more it is a single player game so cheats really only effect you.

Either way you want to slice it the game is currently designed around players who play most efficiently, your whole track on not fully utilizing gear for where it actually enhances your actions sounds nearly rosina like, mind you the points you make are actually coherent.

[Jackstin]

I actually withdrew my point on limiting gear swaps, based on a video which showed people doing full gear swaps using the in-game system, just made inconvenient by the UI. That's one thing.

Using spellcast to change several full gear swaps in one cast however is very definitely cheating. It is so far beyond what the developers intended ot is unreal.

I'll reiterate a point I made before, because I think it relates to your point. Roleplaying games are games where you are given freedom, but have to abide by a set of core rules. FF11 is supposed to be played best by people who are as efficient as possible, so long as they abide by the core rules. If you are not abiding by the core rules then you are cheating, and your efficiency is irrelevant.

I can sort of accept that people using windower aren't cheating because it is not the gameplay mechanics they are working around, just the poor UI. However, spellcast automates in a way that in this very thread has been re-affirmed by the reps to be against the games core ruleset.

[cidbahamut]

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/002/063/arguecat.png

[Nala]

Umm must have not watched that video close enough, about the only 1up that spell cast can give is making day/weather condition weather no brainers aka fires day casting fire spells puts on fire obi vs having 2 diffrent macros per spell for casting in your non obi/and obi.

Know all that crazy gear swaping that rdm was doing? he was using precast mid cast ect gear, people dedicated enough to using the in game macro system can still swap out the same amount of gear, however as i said before due to the macro size limit it invites a much much much greater potential for human error.

Spell cast doesn't automate anything by itself, it still requires your input to do what it does, all it does is eliminate the human error factor of making complex swaps for say precast midcast ect. and consolidates what would be 3 6 9 or 12 macros into 1. there are ways to use spell cast to fully automate but that requires another plugin on top of it.

As i said before i still use the same style macros as that RDM myself, I can teach you how to apply the /macro set x command to execute macros in the same manner if you'd like even.

[Iakothm]

Umm must have not watched that video close enough, about the only 1up that spell cast can give is making day/weather condition weather no brainers aka fires day casting fire spells puts on fire obi vs having 2 diffrent macros per spell for casting in your non obi/and obi.

Know all that crazy gear swaping that rdm was doing? he was using precast mid cast ect gear, people dedicated enough to using the in game macro system can still swap out the same amount of gear, however as i said before due to the macro size limit it invites a much much much greater potential for human error.

Spell cast doesn't automate anything by itself, it still requires your input to do what it does, all it does is eliminate the human error factor of making complex swaps for say precast midcast ect. and consolidates what would be 3 6 9 or 12 macros into 1. there are ways to use spell cast to fully automate but that requires another plugin on top of it.

As i said before i still use the same style macros as that RDM myself, I can teach you how to apply the /macro set x command to execute macros in the same manner if you'd like even.

Spellcast can too take the human completely out of the picture and work like a bot. You know those people standing around for hours skilling up their summon/healing magic? yeah most of those people are using spellcast.

[Zerich]

It's cool if you want to be moral.
It's not cool if you want to impose your morals on others.
Apply this to the White Knight fest, that is this thread, and move on.

[Jackstin]

It's cool if you want to be moral.
It's not cool if you want to impose your morals on others.
Apply this to the White Knight fest, that is this thread, and move on.

Considering this 'immoral' playstyle directly affects my gaming experience I have every right to decry cheaters.

The argument that you are programming the bots yourself so it isn't automated is so flawed. An auto pilot is designed, gambits were designed, anything automated is designed, that does not mean they are not automated.

If spellcast means you can do in one click what should take 6 9 or whatever, and carefully timed at that, then the intention of the game is for you to take the second more difficult option, as spellcast is removing any skill. If you yourself are unable to play the game effectively, then you have to recognise your limits and skill level. Not just get a computer program to do it for you.

I'll say again, the very last post by the reps has confirmed spellcast users are cheating, so there's no use denying it. You are not entitled to automation.

[cidbahamut]

If spellcast means you can do in one click what should take 6 9 or whatever, and carefully timed at that, then the intention of the game is for you to take the second more difficult option, as spellcast is removing any skill. If you yourself are unable to play the game effectively, then you have to recognise your limits and skill level. Not just get a computer program to do it for you.

I'll say again, the very last post by the reps has confirmed spellcast users are cheating, so there's no use denying it. You are not entitled to automation.

So you advocate inflicting repetitive stress injuries on players. Got it.

[Byrth]

Spellcast can too take the human completely out of the picture and work like a bot. You know those people standing around for hours skilling up their summon/healing magic? yeah most of those people are using spellcast.

They might be, but Spellcast does absolutely nothing to enable this. That's called a script, which is an inherent feature of windower.

[Valonquar]

Well, they are slowly making things like this a LOT less necessary. Skillups are WAY easier than they used to be. You CAN be super minmaxing your gearswaps to squeeze out more damage or efficiency on things, but honestly... there's not a lot out there in the game that really NEEDS it vs just making things somewhat easier or less hassle.

It will be interesting to see how much the future UI changes will break stuff for the people that use the 3rd party junk. I've never bothered, mostly out of laziness.

[Jackstin]

So you advocate inflicting repetitive stress injuries on players. Got it.

Try reading what I wrote. If it is too difficult, do not do it. If you are so obsessed with perfection that your only choice is to give yourself repetitive stress injuries, or cheat, then you are addicted to the game and need help.

[cidbahamut]

Bad game design means I have an addiction. Right, because that makes sense.

[Arcon]

Considering this 'immoral' playstyle directly affects my gaming experience I have every right to decry cheaters.

How?


I'll say again, the very last post by the reps has confirmed spellcast users are cheating, so there's no use denying it. You are not entitled to automation.

The Windower team has confirmed it years ago. That's why they have a huge disclaimer saying just that. No one is arguing it isn't cheating. Who exactly are you arguing against?

It's not that people need to make excuses to use cheats. People who are cheating know they are doing so and choose still to do it.

[Jackstin]

In my last linkshell I was pressured into using windower to the point where I left the LS (albeit amicably), in my current LS it hasn't been asked of me because I do well without it, however when I was new to the LS it was said that really to be an effective white mage you need to use spellcast and they'd prefer it if I did. I've also witnessed many conversations not revolving me where people have mocked WHM who don't use windower. This is how it affects me. People allowing cheating to become the norm so that people who don't cheat are marginalised. The same frustration is true of other windower plugin features such as botting and claim assisting.

It is true that this argument has come from nowhere, and I'm sorry for that, it's the main thing that irritates me about this game. However I think I'm rigt in saying that in this read, whilst my comments may come across as inflammatory to those who use spellcast, I am primarily responding to people who don't consider it cheating. As you said these people are wrong, but maybe I shouldn't have made such a big deal about it in a thread not really about spellcast. However if anyone else claims spellcast isn't cheating, of course I will counter.

[cidbahamut]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say it was less about WHMs needing to use windower and more about people who needed to stop half-assing their gear-swapping. You can gearswap like a mofo with the vanilla client, it's just that it's a huge pain in the ass.

[Dragoy]

DRag... you eve ran a DOS pc? There are infact limits to what a pc can read digitaly.... Macros work the same from mud to mmo spaning from 1990s till now, no matter the game the macro systym is generally the same. Meaning 1 action per line. anymore and there can be confliction. Also if anyone read the interview SE has to really scrape space to give us a 5th expac.

Indeed I have. The Commodore 64 (<3 sometimes still I set it up and go back in time since I have like 5 functioning ones) before that, and even the Dragon 32!

But it's really not here nor there, and all this is getting very irrelevant so I'll leave it at that. :]


If moving from a 5-hit to a 4-hit effectively increases your WS frequency (and thus net WS damage) by 33%, you have to wonder if it's even worth swapping gear for WSs on the vanilla client in high Haste situations. If you automate the swaps, it's entirely repeatable and you can be sure that your gear switches back to TP before the WS delay ends.

Only ever using the 'vanilla', after getting my Samurai to a 4-hit situation and even without regain or capped haste from gear, due to double attack and/or triple attack I've been in situations where I simply wont bother. Partially because I'm lazy, and it only really affects me since I play alone or with a friend or few, who don't mind, and because often the macro-system trips on itself and simply doesn't change even one piece of equipment, or sometimes just parts of the macro is not executed, which I find weird when I'm not interrupting it with another macro or anything...

In short: It sucks.

[Jackstin]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say it was less about WHMs needing to use windower and more about people who needed to stop half-assing their gear-swapping. You can gearswap like a mofo with the vanilla client, it's just that it's a huge pain in the ass.

It's not just a huge pain in the ass, it costs valuable seconds needed for whm. I tend to have all my gear swaps on the right bumper, so that no matter which book I am on I can access my gear swaps easily. But there's no denying that people who can just select one macro and automatically change whole sets, sometimes multiple times per spell, have a huge advantage. That very RDM video, and the fact that many people have admitted the inpracticality of vanilla for intense gear swapping proves how much of an advantage it is.

[cidbahamut]

So bitch up a storm for SE to make the vanilla client compete with spellcast.

[wish12oz]

in my current LS

So why do you join these linkshells? And more, why do you stay in such LS's after you join? I noticed you only refer to one of these two LS's as a former LS.


Considering this 'immoral' playstyle directly affects my gaming experience I have every right to decry cheaters.

If you hate them, why do you play with them?

Hypocrisy is awesome, but seriously, I know the answer to how they affect your gameplay. They are directly contributing to building your character, that is how they directly affect your gameplay. Before you come here and cry cheater and try to pull a holier than thou attitude, maybe you should look at the things you're doing first and set your own house in order. Im not saying I have a problem with windower or spellcast or anything else, the only cheats I have a problem with are ones that directly negatively impact my ability to play the game. Other people DAT swapping lamps, or flee hacking for no reason, or removing collision detection, or switching 50 pieces of gear with one macro does not impact me, so I don't care. The only 'bad' cheats are things that directly give you power over another persons ability to play the game, like claim bots. Complaining about anything else is a waste of time, unless your complaints are to SE to add this stuff into the actual game.

[Jackstin]

So bitch up a storm for SE to make the vanilla client compete with spellcast.

Why? Their last reply in this thread says that they do not support that level of automation. You seem to be confused. SE haven't failed to deliver a client that meets your specifications, they have set the rules and you have decided to cheat. Simple as.

Now I know there are some serious UI issues, but breaking the core rules of the game is not UI. It is thinking you are above the the creators vision.

Edit: To wish, I play with them because they are everywhere. And to your other point, you are another person who feels entitled to full gear swaps and spellcast because you feel they should be part of the game. Why? The creators have said that they don 't want that level of automation in the game. It requies no skill to just copy an xml file and press one button to execute a full gear swap and anything you need to cast a spell. What's so great about that? Sounds like you're making it easier and taking away the skill.

[wish12oz]

Why? Their last reply in this thread says that they do not support that level of automation. You seem to be confused. SE haven't failed to deliver a client that meets your specifications, they have set the rules and you have decided to cheat. Simple as.

Now I know there are some serious UI issues, but breaking the core rules of the game is not UI. It is thinking you are above the the creators vision.

So you're better than everyone else because you dont use windower macros or spellcast, but your entire LS does, and you benefit from that. In my opinion you're worse than cheaters, you're knowingly profiting off them and putting nothing at risk while badmouthing them and condemning them behind their backs like a coward.



Edit: To wish, I play with them because they are everywhere.

Thats a lousy excuse, if you really cared you wouldnt play with them.


And to your other point, you are another person who feels entitled to full gear swaps and spellcast because you feel they should be part of the game. Why?

I'm not actually a fan of spellcast, but I do think it's retarded to add so much situational gear and not allow for 16 gear swaps and 1 action in a single macro.


The creators have said that they don 't want that level of automation in the game. It requies no skill to just copy an xml file and press one button to execute a full gear swap and anything you need to cast a spell. What's so great about that? Sounds like you're making it easier and taking away the skill.

Pressing 5 macros instead of one isnt exactly skill. And I don't really care what the creators have said, they made their decision and say its cheating to do it, so therefor it's cheating. That doesnt change the fact that it's retarded, and people with common sense should try and get them to change their minds. And again, I dont use spellcast, and if I did, I would make my own XMLs as my gear is definitely going to be different than any XML I could find somewhere to download. The skill with spellcast comes with the ability to learn XML and program all your gear swaps correctly.

[cidbahamut]

Why? Their last reply in this thread says that they do not support that level of automation. You seem to be confused. SE haven't failed to deliver a client that meets your specifications, they have set the rules and you have decided to cheat. Simple as.

Now I know there are some serious UI issues, but breaking the core rules of the game is not UI. It is thinking you are above the the creators vision.

You seem to be laboring under the mistaken notion that SE is in the right here.
Hint: they aren't, they're just bad at game design.



Edit: To wish, I play with them because they are everywhere. And to your other point, you are another person who feels entitled to full gear swaps and spellcast because you feel they should be part of the game. Why? The creators have said that they don 't want that level of automation in the game. It requies no skill to just copy an xml file and press one button to execute a full gear swap and anything you need to cast a spell. What's so great about that? Sounds like you're making it easier and taking away the skill.
Build your own xml. Ta-da, now it requires skill again.

Seriously though, why are you defending bad game design so fiercely? Bad game design is something to be corrected, not accepted and then defended to the death the way you're doing.

[Jackstin]

So you're better than everyone else because you dont use windower macros or spellcast, but your entire LS does, and you benefit from that. In my opinion you're worse than cheaters, you're profiting off them and putting nothing at risk.



Thats a lousy excuse, if you really cared you wouldnt play with them.



I'm not actually a fan of spellcast, but I do think it's retarded to add so much situational gear and not allow for 16 gear swaps and 1 action in a single macro.

I don't think you realise how widespread spellcast is. I do not stay in an LS because they all use spellcast so I can profit from it. That is a stupid thing to say. I stay in an LS where people use spellcast because it is unavoidable. It is not a lousy excuse, and you're getting to borderline offensive, and certainly wilfully obtuse now.

There is a lot of situational gear, and I would support more macro slots so that people can make use of it. However I'm not going to support people who are cheaters in a game where everyone is either helping each other, or competing. If you're using spellcast you are a cheater, if you are happy with that, then good for you, but don't expect people who play the game properly to be happy about it.

@Cid. That statement pretty much proves me saying that those who use spellcast think they are above the game creators. You are right this game has some serious issues, this is why people run to windower in the first place. But automation doesn't promote skill, it just promotes efficiency. Just like botting. Why would you defend poor game design?

[wish12oz]

I don't think you realise how widespread spellcast is. I do not stay in an LS because they all use spellcast so I can profit from it. That is a stupid thing to say. I stay in an LS where people use spellcast because it is unavoidable. It is not a lousy excuse,

It is not unavoidable, I have seen tons of super anti hacking LS's, and if one doesnt exist you can make it.


and you're getting to borderline offensive, and certainly wilfully obtuse now.

Does my comment strike a nerve? perhaps it's because it's true. You're knowingly being aided by people who 'cheat' and building your character off them, while putting nothing at risk yourself and badmouthing them behind their backs. What about this statement am I wrong about? Your acts disgust me, if you were in my LS I would kick you.


There is a lot of situational gear, and I would support more macro slots so that people can make use of it. However I'm not going to support people who are cheaters in a game where everyone is either helping each other, or competing. If you're using spellcast you are a cheater, if you are happy with that, then good for you, but don't expect people who play the game properly to be happy about it.

Your words would hold more weight if you walked the walk as well as talking the talk, why don't you leave that 'awful cheater filled LS' you're in and show everyone that your superior morals are not just for show. I know you won't ever do it, because you like that they make your character better, but it just makes you a hypocrite.

[cidbahamut]

Most players know a hell of a lot more about what this game needs than the devs do. That's nothing new and it's certainly not isolated to just this game, it's true in any multitude of games. The good devs will draw on their playerbase's knowledge and insight, while others choose to ignore it and charge ahead making poor decisions.

Again: why are you defending bad game design?

[Jackstin]

The implication you are making is that I am intentionally benefitting from a spellcast using LS. I know this isn't true, you know this isn't true, and more importantly it is an obvious attempt to distract from the issue.

How is feebly attempting to discredit me personally, anything to do with the argument I have laid down. If you disagree with what I am saying then please do counter. You have failed to do this, instead presenting a common fallacy. It is poor argument technique, and suggests you have nothing to contribute to the actual debate.

In direct response to your claims, the people in my LS are friends. Despite them using spellcast I still want to play with them because it is fun, although I do let them know what I think of windower.

@Cid you haven't responded to what I said. Spellcast is automation which does not promote skill. Why is SE opposing soft botting bad game design?

[cidbahamut]

@Cid you haven't responded to what I said. Spellcast is automation which does not promote skill. Why is SE opposing soft botting bad game design?

Because they have failed to provide adequate tools to make use of a game mechanic. The gear they introduce is tailor made to such a game mechanic as well as to the specific tool that the userbase created for themselves in the absence of a legitimate first-party tool. It's not about automation, it's about providing the correct in-game tools to interface with the rest of the content.
You don't build Super Mario World and then not give the player a jump button. It's the same principle at work here, even if my analogy is horribly strained.

[wish12oz]

The implication you are making is that I am intentionally benefitting from a spellcast using LS. I know this isn't true, you know this isn't true, and more importantly it is an obvious attempt to distract from the issue.

How is feebly attempting to discredit me personally, anything to do with the argument I have laid down. If you disagree with what I am saying then please do counter. You have failed to do this, instead presenting a common fallacy. It is poor argument technique, and suggests you have nothing to contribute to the actual debate.

In direct response to your claims, the people in my LS are friends. Despite them using spellcast I still want to play with them because it is fun, although I do let them know what I think of windower.

Spellcast and windower macros are cheating, as the DEVs say they are cheating, there is no arguing this. I am simply pointing out that you're a hypocrite and should not be taken seriously. And unless you never lot anything, you are knowingly benefiting from a bunch of 'cheaters' as you call them, while not putting your own account at risk and then badmouthing them here. I find this act appalling and you should be ashamed of yourself.

[Jackstin]

Spellcast and windower macros are cheating, as the DEVs say they are cheating, there is no arguing this. I am simply pointing out that you're a hypocrite and should not be taken seriously. And unless you never lot anything, you are knowingly benefiting from a bunch of 'cheaters' as you call them, while not putting your own account at risk and then badmouthing them here. I find this act appalling and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Ask yourself this. Why are you attacking me? If you have no issue with what I am saying then making things personal is outrageous. Even if you question the manner in which I have put forward my argument, which I could understand, resorting to a personal attack is a horrible thing to do.

I also don't think it is outrageous to be part of an LS with friends who use spellcast when I am against it. As it happens I have accomplished nearly everything I want in game, and as a result I really do very rarely lot anything. Not to say that has never happened, but what you are saying I should do, to avoid hypocrisy is either leave the LS with my friends, or stay in the LS but refuse to earn anything whilst playing the game. That would be like asking someone who is against torture, to never use roads, hospitals, or get a job in the US, simply because the Us government (and many others) routinely tortures people. Are you against torture?

EDIT: Sorry for not responding to your post Cid, I wad focusing more on the person who was personally attacking me. Give me a minute and I'll respond tomyour point.

[FrankReynolds]

Crack dealers are scumbags. I don't sell crack, but all my friends sell crack. No banks were around, so I got the money to buy a house from my crack dealer friends. It was unavoidable, because I had to have a house. I'm totally not a hypocrite.

See how silly this sounds? Now lets get back to talking about how we can fix the problem through the legit client and stop focusing on what we think about third party tools. If we get things changed, everybody wins.

[Jackstin]

Okay so at the moment with vanilla, you can either equip midcast equipment, but are limited in the number of pieces you can swap out, or you can create a dedicated gearswap macro or two and time them well. Spellcast converts this all in to just one macro. This to me, is automation.

I don't think its perfect. Maybe it would be better if you could create a full gear swap macro but still have to select abilities separately. Or even simpler than that, just increase the number of macro slots. But I'd prefer to play a game where there is some element of skill in gear swaps. You may say that's good for me, and let you play your way. But as I've said, your way affects me, and it is against the rules. Why should I be at a disadvantage for adhering to the rules?

[Jackstin]

Crack dealers are scumbags. I don't sell crack, but all my friends sell crack. No banks were around, so I got the money to buy a house from my crack dealer friends. It was unavoidable, because I had to have a house. I'm totally not a hypocrite.

I think that is vastly exaggerating how much I benefit from my crack dealer friends. A better analogy would be, all my friends are crack dealers, I tell them crack is wrong but I still hang our with them because they are my friends. If I drive them somewhere they give me petrol money.

EDIT: and I am still appauled that people have the resorted to personal attacks instead of attacking the argument they disagree with.

[cidbahamut]

Why should I be at a disadvantage for adhering to the rules?
A better question would be: Why should the rules put you at a disadvantage to begin with?

[Jackstin]

A better question would be: Why should the rules put you at a disadvantage to begin with?

Rules only put people at a disadvantage to people who flaunt them. No cheating? no disadvantage.

[Arcon]

Why? Their last reply in this thread says that they do not support that level of automation.

You confuse multiple gear swaps with automation and botting. SE never said they support it, nor do people want it. They just want more of the same: macro lines. It's the same level of automation as it is now.


Now I know there are some serious UI issues, but breaking the core rules of the game is not UI. It is thinking you are above the the creators vision.

I do firmly believe that. I believe that the creators of this game are completely inept at designing an efficient MMORPG.


Rules only put people at a disadvantage to people who flaunt them. No cheating? no disadvantage.

Better rules? Disable cheating. But that doesn't seem to occur to SE (or you), further supporting my statement above.

[FrankReynolds]

I think that is vastly exaggerating how much I benefit from my crack dealer friends. A better analogy would be, all my friends are crack dealers, I tell them crack is wrong but I still hang our with them because they are my friends. If I drive them somewhere they give me petrol money.

So your still benefiting from crack sales, when you should be making new friends and putting in more time at the office.

[wish12oz]

all my friends are crack dealers, I tell them crack is wrong but I still hang our with them because they are my friends. When I drive them to sell crack they give me petrol money and a little extra, and this occurs everyday for several hours

This is what your argument looks like to me. Sure, selling crack is bad, and people who do it are scum, but when you hang out with them, and help them do it, and benefit from their selling of crack, you're just as guilty as they are. Thats why people who drive the getaway car and dont help commit the crime are still charged with the crime. Now get off your high horse, you're nothing special and have no right to lecture anyone about morals or call them bad for cheating like you have been.


So your still benefiting from crack sales, when you should be making new friends and putting in more time at the office.

This sums it up nicely.

[Jackstin]

This is what your argument looks like to me. Sure, selling crack is bad, and people who do it are scum, but when you hang out with them, and help them do it, and benefit from their selling of crack, you're just as guilty as they are. Thats why people who drive the getaway car and dont help commit the crime are still charged with the crime. Now get off your high horse, you're nothing special and have no right to lecture anyone about morals or call them bad for cheating like you have been.



This sums it up nicely.

And again! You are saying you agreenwith my sentiments, but insist on attacking me personally? Why? Reported.

And now I know how ignored. By ALL means disagree with me. But just because you are anonymous on the internet does not give you license to come after me personally. I am not a hypocrite, but if I was the biggest hypocrite in the world it would be nothing to do with you, or to do with my argument. At first I thought you were just trying to use a fallacy to distract from the argument, but as it turns out you agreed and just wanted to be spiteful.

[Reiterpallasch]

And again! You are saying you agreenwith my sentiments, but insist on attacking me personally? Why? Reported.
A better thing to report would be your disgusting actions and attitude to your LS leaders/members. You do everything "legit" so you can benefit while only putting them at risk. Which is despicable to say the least, especially if you call them "friends". I wonder how they would feel about how you talk about them behind their backs?

[wish12oz]

Im not really anonymous as I use the same name for everything, and I've even linked my actual website here before. I'm just pointing out that you have no right to talk down about others and claim to be superior because you dont use windower macros or spellcast, because you admit you knowingly play with people who do and benefit from it. That's not a violation of the forum rules, it's pointing out things you say.

[Doombringer]

i fail to see how a macro that still only performs one action, but swaps all the gear needed for that action as opposed to one third the gear, is automation.

i mean granted, you can make some SUPER long W macros that start to border on automation, but most people don't.(i'm sure there's a way to make them auto-repeat but i can barely get ffxi to RUN on my laptop so...)

once you go beyond the one action you the player can decide to use, the system has hit a wall. do you think if players had infinitely long macros they would que hundreds of actions onto one button press and just leave it alone during battles?

and nobody is asking for that anyway...

SE says one action per line. we all want 1 action per macro. the issue is most of us don't consider changing 1 ring an action.

[tyrantsyn]

I'm confused, I thought we were discussion increasing macro line's. Are we all getting into selling crack on the street's of Jeuno now or something? Man I've never seen a strung out taru before, this is going to be great.

[FrankReynolds]

I'm confused, I thought we were discussion increasing macro line's. Are we all getting into selling crack on the street's of Jeuno now or something? Man I've never seen a strung out taru before, this is going to be great.

They look like this (http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/bestiary.html?fmob=1778). They have been all over Jeuno lately.


do you think if players had infinitely long macros they would que hundreds of actions onto one button press and just leave it alone during battles?


I admit that I didn't look very hard, but I have yet to find a spellcast script in pastebin that performs repeated actions. It is probably doable, but I've never met anyone personally who uses it for that.

[Jackstin]

Its a fallacy to say an argument is flawed because the arguer is uncredable either you are attacking my argument, in which case you are doing it wrong, or you are attacking me, in which case there is no need.

I personally think it is unfair to call me worse than a cheater. If I was intentionally partying with people, making use of their cheating, but refusing to put my account at risk, then sure I could understand it. But I don't. I party with them despite their cheating, not because of it. Try and be a little nicer on the internet, calling a stranger who you know next to nothing about a hypocrite is not a nice thing to do.

[Tamoa]

I have to say I'm with wish12oz, CidBahamut and Reiterpallasch on this one. This is on par with how things were back at 75 cap, where people were crying over bots but still joined endgame linkshells knowing full well people in the ls botted hnms.

Saying you won't, under any circumstances, use any kind of 3rd party tool, is perfectly fine. Looking down on others that do use them, and actually say you think you're better than them while still directly benefitting from playing with them, is not fine. That is indeed pretty much being a hypocrite.

[Jackstin]

I have to say I'm with wish12oz, CidBahamut and Reiterpallasch on this one. This is on par with how things were back at 75 cap, where people were crying over bots but still joined endgame linkshells knowing full well people in the ls botted hnms.

Saying you won't, under any circumstances, use any kind of 3rd party tool, is perfectly fine. Looking down on others that do use them, and actually say you think you're better than them while still directly benefitting from playing with them, is not fine. That is indeed pretty much being a hypocrite.

You know what? I've NEVER said I'm better than them. I've called them cheaters, and I've said that they negatively affect me in-game, but I've not said anything other than that.

I think it is unbelievable that people are saying that I should not be allowed to party with people who use windower. I'm being further marginalised because I choose not to cheat? That's pretty rich. And this thread just proves what an issue windower is. How widespread the plague is.

[Tamoa]

You know what? I've NEVER said I'm better than them. I've called them cheaters, and I've said that they negatively affect me in-game, but I've not said anything other than that.

I think it is unbelievable that people are saying that I should not be allowed to party with people who use windower. I'm being further marginalised because I choose not to cheat? That's pretty rich. And this thread just proves what an issue windower is. How widespread the plague is.


Why are you playing with people that you KNOW use windower and spellcast then, if they negatively impact your gameplay? I'd say the opposite might actually be true here, they're speeding up your own character's progress and you just won't admit it.

And in my personal opinion, just about every post you've made in this thread implies you do infact think you're better than players using windower. Some things are best left unsaid, you know?

[cidbahamut]

Try and be a little nicer on the internet, calling a stranger who you know next to nothing about a hypocrite is not a nice thing to do.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/23959716.jpg

[Arcon]

And this thread just proves what an issue windower is. How widespread the plague is.

It's not an infectious disease. People don't get a case of the "Windowers". People choose to use it because they see the benefit in it. If people laugh at you for not using Windower those are the same people who'd laugh at you for any reason they can think of. It's a problem with the people, not with Windower.

Windower is not a problem, FFXI is the problem. Windower is one solution. Many people, including me, would prefer if the FFXI people got off their asses and improved FFXI to a point where Windower wasn't necessary, where FFXI would become its own solution. But I'm starting to think that time may never come.

You saying Windower is a problem because the people not using it are being left out of the goodies is like saying telephones are a problem because there's crazy people who choose not to use them and they're unable to communicate as well. Because that's what Windower essentially is: progress.

[FrankReynolds]

Its a fallacy to say an argument is flawed because the arguer is uncredable either you are attacking my argument, in which case you are doing it wrong, or you are attacking me, in which case there is no need.

I personally think it is unfair to call me worse than a cheater. If I was intentionally partying with people, making use of their cheating, but refusing to put my account at risk, then sure I could understand it. But I don't. I party with them despite their cheating, not because of it. Try and be a little nicer on the internet, calling a stranger who you know next to nothing about a hypocrite is not a nice thing to do.

According to your arguments about spellcast, I deduce that you think it makes people perform much better than they would without it. Which means that your LS would not be nearly as good without it. Which means that by extension, you did in fact choose your LS based on their use of it.

You could say people are personally attacking you, but that is only because you have used yourself in your argument. If you had said "joey the smurf is in an LS with cheaters because it's unavoidable", we would all be talking about what a hypocrite Joey the Smurf is right now.

As an aside, if everyone is using spellcast, and it is completely unavoidable to participate without teaming up with spellcast users, then who exactly is being harmed by it? It sounds like everyone is on equal footing. I find that very hard to believe by the way. I have been in numerous LS where almost everyone played on 360 and we frequently used xbox live chat during events. I found the linkshells completely by accident. It has never occurred to me to ask people what system they play on in game, without the topic coming up due to game crash issues, or chat features (IE "does anyone here use vent? or xbox live?").

[Tamoa]

It's not an infectious disease. People don't get a case of the "Windowers".

Oh god I lol'd, thank you! :D

[Jackstin]

I play with them because I like them. Initally I didn't know they used windower or spellcast or whatever. When I found out I didn't stop playing with them because I liked them. Spellcast doesn't negatively impact me every time it is used, I've never said that. But it does negatively impact me on a regular enough basis for it to be a handicap.

Now you are all saying that because I disapprove of it, I should give up LS and people that I'm attached to? Do you therefore wish to further marginalise anyone who does not support cheating? Or just me because I called the practice out?

I have not said I am better than anyone who cheats for a very good reason, it is the practice I disapprove of, not the people. So if you think I have implied something, then you are wrong. The worst I have said about the people is that they are cheaters, and even those personally attacking me have acknowledged that status.

And once again, if you wish to argue my opinions. Please feel free to, I have no problem with that. Turning against me personally is a horrible thing to do, especially after I have refrained from attacking anyone personally.

[Tamoa]

I actually fail to see how anyone using windower and spellcast can negatively impact your personal gameplay. Are you being crushed damage-wise by people who are able to swap all their gear by pressing one key, is that why you're so worked up over it?

If it was about bots and clipper, I'd understand. Windower and spellcast though? This I don't understand.

[Jackstin]

I actually fail to see how anyone using windower and spellcast can negatively impact your personal gameplay. Are you being crushed damage-wise by people who are able to swap all their gear by pressing one key, is that why you're so worked up over it?

If it was about bots and clipper, I'd understand. Windower and spellcast though? This I don't understand.

I've said this before. Personally I've been asked a couple of times to start using spellcast. Not a nice, hey this might help kind of way, but in a you need to do is to be a good WHM kind of way. Thats how I found out my current Ls used spellcast in the first place. I've also seen criticism of several other vanilla players a few times.

As I've said, I'm not hugely against windower usage, it is still cheating, but I can at least understand why people feel the need to use it. But spellcast isn't just full gear swaps. As I understand it you don't need spellcast for that. Spellcast is about exploiting the game to make it way easier than was ever intended. Poor game design is one thing, but being able to switch to precast, wait a set amount of time, switch to midcast, and then back to idle, all at the click of one macro, is quite another.

[Neisan_Quetz]

You don't need spellcast to do that.

Although it helps.

[cidbahamut]

So my original assessment that it's an issue of half-assing your gearswapping was correct.

[Tamoa]

If people tell you to use windower and spellcast, and you don't want to, tell them no? Shouldn't be harder than that, and if they won't shut up about it then just ignore them?

With the massive amount of highly situational gear that just about every job has available to them, I cannot fault anyone for using spellcast to be as efficient as they possibly can.

[Arcon]

Poor game design is one thing, but being able to switch to precast, wait a set amount of time, switch to midcast, and then back to idle, all at the click of one macro, is quite another.

It's not a design issue. Currently that's already possible with 0 timing skills, just by pressing buttons if you use the <wait #> directive cleverly. The only difference is the number of lines.

SpellCast actually does provide more advanced features, the "worst" of which would be conditionals. Change gear based on certain variables like time of day, day of week, current HP/MP, etc.

[Dreamin]

Okay, think it's time to derail the windower vs non-windower discussion and back to really the true topic in hand, which is:

- Dear SE, we want more than 6 lines per Macro button. If you insisted that we cannot have more than 6 lines per macro. Then all we want is some sort of mechanism to setup 'Multiple Gearsets' which contains 16 slots of gears only. Which can be setup using something similar to the current 'Equipment' menu selection. Each Gearset can then be equip by a new command '/equip gearset X' where 'X' is one of the number of pre-setted Gearsets that you would allow us to setup (please give us a few, maybe at a min 5 gearsets - I'm even willing to change the gearset each time I change job - yeah call me crazy but it's better than having nothing). If this isn't possible to do on the PS2, then make this only for the PC/Xbox 360 platform and let the PS2 ppl suffer since you're already okay with making UI enhancement that would create an unfair advantages for the PC platform already. So we're just asking that you to please be consistent and be strong and be willing to ditch the PS2 platform for future enhancement if PS2 is the current limitation.

Now, let's get back to what really should be discussed and not whether Windower is evil or not (if you really want to have that discussion, please feel free to create a new thread here or go to BG and dig up THAT old thread).

[Jackstin]

So my original assessment that it's an issue of half-assing your gearswapping was correct.

Lol. Dude who doesn't use windower must be gimp.

Yup pretty much proves my point, thanks.

[FrankReynolds]

Lol. Dude who doesn't use windower must be gimp.

Yup pretty much proves my point, thanks.

I think it was more like "Dude doesn't know how to gear swap for shit. We like him though, so maybe if we get him on spellcast we can keep him."

[cidbahamut]

Lol. Dude who doesn't use windower must be gimp.

Yup pretty much proves my point, thanks.

Says the guy who advocates only swapping 5 pieces of gear per action at max.

Christ, learn to chain your macros already. It's not rocket science.

Here, look at this: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Macro


/macro set # Change to "#" macro line

You see that command there? That's your key to using the vanilla client to gear swap entire sets.

[Dragoy]

I, for one, don't really see Jackstin trying to make it look like he/she/other is better than the cheaters other\she\it I mean he is playing with.

I haven't ever used the windower, or anything like that, and I really don't care about other people using them. It happens in every game: people cheat, more and/or less. While it all might not directly affect other players, I have to admit, I can imagine adjusting content could become skewed due to the additionals people are using. It had been mentioned quite a lot now I see, mostly regarding Nyzul Isle II.

As for playing with the cheating linkshells or not, people have probably always been saying it: most players use something, so if one wants to do 'end-game', they're going to have to live with it, unfortunately. So with that in mind, I would not be too fast in calling one hypocrite as seen around this post.

I don't do Voidwatch or Legion, nor Nyzul Isle II and if Limbus II and Slavage (actual typo, ha!) I mean Salvage II follow the Nyzul form, I will not be doing those, and pretty much everything else in the game I can do without lots of people so I guess I am glad for not being in a situation of having to play with them cheaters. Again, though, I know cheaters, and have played with them, but not at all gaining anything from it due to them cheating andwhatnot, but if people still need to go on about that in this topic, I'll leave it at that.

Now, what was I going to say... My thoughts are quite diluted with the distraction of that which is unseen, most of the time (but sometimes heard).

I've always had a strong will for playing by the rules, so I would never call a 'cheat' progress. Obviously it often makes things better, easier, and in some cases the way it should be, or at least towards it. I guess it's because I often put myself into the position of the developer due to the things I do, so I would not like people cheating in my game, either. It's obvious this game lacks in a lot of its features, and I can not deny that 3rd party applications improve it, but it's still denied by the developers so I will play by the book then. It's just how I roll~

To be clear, I would like it a lot if many 'cheats' were to be implemented or allowed come the UI/customisation update.


As Dreamin there said, I think it's time to derail this topic back on track, so to speak.


I'll leave it at that. Probably wrote a lot again, I already forgot what... so sleepy... blubb.

¯°¯

[Tamarsamar]

I'm going to note here that I dislike cidbahamut and disagree with most of the bile he spews.

That said, he has a much more reasonable and thought-out point than Jack.

All anybody is saying is that, unless SE nerfs the playerbase hard by removing the ability to swap gear at all, people are going to exploit all the tools they have given to them to their fullest (and, in some unscrupulous people's cases, many more tools after that). Min-maxing is a fact of any game with depth, and to not anticipate that players will, eventually, one way or another, try to take advantage of this, is simply, as cid has repeated ad nauseum, bad game design.

So now that the cat is out of the bag (and SE seems to have accepted that people swap gear a long time ago), why not make it so that you can save an entire set of gear to a single command? Suddenly, 6 lines per macro seems exceedingly generous, and pressing two fewer buttons isn't exactly as game-shattering as, say, pos-hacking or item-duping, so why shouldn't SE reward legitimate players with a basic-but-significant quality-of-life enhancement for their game?

[Dragoy]

Oh yes, definitely. That's something I forgot to mention: It's definitely the game's fault that anything like windower ever game to be. As far as I know, the original intent was to be able to have the game windowed indeed, which is still quite unbelievable to think how long it took for the 'official windower' to become reality.

It is comparable to the features it now offers. It makes things better, sure, but it's still not allowed and some of as will accept that. I will probably never understand why they still are not adopting or at least doing something to better things so that such things would not be needed! I think I mentioned it before, and many others have as well, that there is the possibility of them thinking “it's all good” because people are not complaining enough (due to using roundabouts). I still don't want to believe in that, and rather think that they're just stubborn.

I will still spare some faith into the upcoming UI/plug-in update...

If things weren't so obviously inconvenient (quick example: all the situational equipment they keep throwing us, but broken means to apply use of them), there would simply be no need for (teleport) dem cheats!


Just some more random (and tired) thoughts.

[Jackstin]

Says the guy who advocates only swapping 5 pieces of gear per action at max.

Christ, learn to chain your macros already. It's not rocket science.

Here, look at this: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Macro

You see that command there? That's your key to using the vanilla client to gear swap entire sets.

That is what I do at the moment. I've already said that I no longer think 5 gear pieces is enough and we should get more macro lines. Why are you arguing against me on points I am not taking issue with? It is spellcast that is the problem. Keep up.

[Demon6324236]

Yes, people do. (http://youtu.be/OKFhHI74hNU)

Hes right, this post back on page 21 stopped that, now hes complaining about Spellcast which I have never bothered to use or look into thus I have only been reading.

[Jackstin]

Hes right, this post back on page 21 stopped that, now hes complaining about Spellcast which I have never bothered to use or look into thus I have only been reading.

Exactly. If people give me reasonable arguments, and even better, evidence, I'll totally consider it and in this case I U-turned.

I may even have U-turned if people had given me a good argument as to why Spellcast wasn't an abuse. But no one could, and instead tried to distract from the issue by forming an attack against my credibility. Which in case you haven't noticed, I now have a huge chip on my shoulder about.

Actually I've read a few of the other threads on here, and actually the people I thought were attacking me, are just as vile mannered to anyone else so I no longer take it personally. Adios.

[FrankReynolds]

Long story short. It would be a terrible move economically speaking to ban the thousands of spellcast users. It would be extremely wise and noble to give non spellcast users at least some of the functionality that their criminal brethren have.

If they were even polite enough to say "We won't ban you, but we will suspend you if we catch you." That would at least give people the option to even the playing field, knowing that they are not risking their accounts.

Refusing to do anything seems like really bad taste in my opinion, but it has worked so far...

It would have been nice if they had not fanned the flame with that lame response though.

[Ragmar]

I really hate hate hate when people get on other peoples case about their ffxiah profiles as if it has anything to do with a topic, But hearing "abysseanoobumadness" coming from someone who has this: "WoC looking for a few mature people to build empy/AF3+2/Relic" in their profile strikes me as odd.

I have every VW drop I really want (Toci's, Coruscanti aside). AF3 85/100 +2 and 99/100 +1. I co created the single most capable LS on Phoenix. I left said LS for a more relaxed pace with long time friends who weren't as into the end game scene and because drama became tiresome. Abyssea fits perfect for that role. So yes I would like to take a few people through abyssea and deck em out with gear and empys. I actually find helping others rewarding. As for calling someone out on their profile it was only in regards to their claim of "longtime support" which I find highly unlikely after seeing their profile. I mean if you consider playing since abyssea longtime <please forgive me>.

~Don't hate the derail they thread locked the other thread you posted this in.

[FrankReynolds]

I have every VW drop I really want (Toci's, Coruscanti aside). AF3 85/100 +2 and 99/100 +1. I co created the single most capable LS on Phoenix. I left said LS for a more relaxed pace with long time friends who weren't as into the end game scene and because drama became tiresome. Abyssea fits perfect for that role. So yes I would like to take a few people through abyssea and deck em out with gear and empys. I actually find helping others rewarding. As for calling someone out on their profile it was only in regards to their claim of "longtime support" which I find highly unlikely after seeing their profile. I mean if you consider playing since abyssea longtime <please forgive me>.

~Don't hate the derail they thread locked the other thread you posted this in.

Meh, I don't care one way or the other. It just came off a little strange to me.

Since we're on a derailed train here anyways though... did they really just use that lame response and lock that thread? Seriously...

People were saying "Instead of going after cheaters, please just make it so that there is no reason to cheat" and they lock that for mentioning third party tools... Yet here is a whole thread about third party tools (A discussion caused almost entirely by their lame responses) and it's open. Is it just me? or is this thread in a way darker place than the other one was?

[tyrantsyn]

Either their really intent in getting everything they can from this thread to try and improve thing's or their just making a list of the ppl they suspect of using 3rd party tool's.

[Dreamin]

Either their really intent in getting everything they can from this thread to try and improve thing's or their just making a list of the ppl they suspect of using 3rd party tool's.

lol if their intent is to flag ppl with 3rd party tool, it'll be a hell of a lot easier to do that over on BG's forum then here.

[Tamoa]

lol if their intent is to flag ppl with 3rd party tool, it'll be a hell of a lot easier to do that over on BG's forum then here.

Except any BG forum member can claim to be you - or me - or any other character in FFXI.

[tyrantsyn]

Except any BG forum member can claim to be you - or me - or any other character in FFXI.

What he/she said ^^

[Dreamin]

Except any BG forum member can claim to be you - or me - or any other character in FFXI.

Nah wasn't talking about just ppl who post but rather just go look for all the Screenshots. SS is conclusive proof when someone is using third party tool. There's no agrument about it at all.

[Tamoa]

Oh ok, I guess screenshots can't possibly be altered in any way.

[wish12oz]

Screenshot is conclusive proof when someone is using third party tool.

I could totally fake a SS and no one would ever know unless I told them. It's not exactly hard.

[Rosina]

Love the tag guys... funny my suggest is highly popular.... Give credit where its due tho. k? You guys rage too much and fail at thinking of anything outside ur self and ur egos. Its just a video GAME, no need to act like a spoiled 3 yr old at daycare.... FFxi forums... the daycare for adults. Thing nanny SE got change a few diapers got some cranky adults who need to be changed.

[Shadowsong]

Is adding 4 periods now the cool way to put commas?

[Demon6324236]

Is adding 4 periods now the cool way to put commas?

Yep... sure is.

[Rosina]

I type how I talk. the .... is a text indication of a pause. I basic scripting. But wow...... (indication oF exaggerated sarcastic wow) you guy are REALLY mature.... *eye roll* You guys fail to get how to type sarcasim. I was being sarcastic

[Vivik]

I type how I talk.

That explains a lot.

[Jerbob]

Instead of arguing amongst ourselves and making personal attacks, is it at least possible to agree on the fact that introducing something like that which has been suggested by the OP would be beneficial to at least some people in the game? It's obvious that people have strong views on using third party tools - I know I could argue until the cows come home about it - but this isn't really the place.

I honestly cannot see a drawback to enhancing macros (please correct me if I am wrong), and I don't think anyone here has argued against it per se, so we need to focus on giving the community reps something concrete to take back to the developers. As usual there seems to be a misunderstanding on their (the developers) part - this would be a "quality of life" style change and not something that would allow actions to be taken without any player input. We need to find a way to make this clear and to draw up some ideas on how it could be implemented. I am certain that both people with experience of the benefits of third party tools and those with experience of the current, limited in-game macroing system can both contribute to this, identifying weaknesses and proposing fixes.

I personally feel like I have a lot invested in this sort of thread. I'm sick of having to mash macros and make gear sacrifices that stop me from being the best player that I can be, and any enhancement to the macro system would make my enjoyment of the game increase twofold. Simple restrictions like allowing macros to call one another but only up to a maximum of, say, 6, would prevent botting. The oft-mentioned gearset creation idea would work well too. We just need to pull together in support of any of these systems so that the community reps can do their thing and make the developers understand. Even an "I wouldn't use it but it looks useful to some people" is better than "I don't need it so it's terrible."

[FrankReynolds]

It would be nice if they could make macros save as soon as you make them while they are at it. I don't know how many times I have written a bunch of macros, only to get D/c a minute later and lose all the changes. I imagine that the reason they won't let you save them to the server this way is because it would bog them down, but they should be saved locally as soon as you write them.

[Rosina]

It would be nice if they could make macros save as soon as you make them while they are at it. I don't know how many times I have written a bunch of macros, only to get D/c a minute later and lose all the changes. I imagine that the reason they won't let you save them to the server this way is because it would bog them down, but they should be saved locally as soon as you write them.

this please and thank you.
been there done that got 5 t-shirts and burned them all.

O btw here is something neat i found out about the macro saving.

I started a character same name on same server and retained my macros w/o having to upload it.

When i played rdm melee. I put my debuffs into 2 macros dia/poison had it's own macro then para/blind/slow. (this help to get all my spells off at the start of the fight so I could watch everyones hp/mp while watching the log for dispel.)

[cidbahamut]

When i played rdm melee. I put my debuffs into 2 macros dia/poison had it's own macro then para/blind/slow. (this help to get all my spells off at the start of the fight so I could watch everyones hp/mp while watching the log for dispel.)
Stuffing multiple spells into a single macro is rarely a good idea on Red Mage. You give up too much control and may also end up with redundant casts. I would strongly discourage people from setting up their macros like that.

[Demon6324236]

Stuffing multiple spells into a single macro is rarely a good idea on Red Mage. You give up too much control and may also end up with redundant casts. I would strongly discourage people from setting up their macros like that.

Shh~... don't need more fighting, I think we had enough of that in this thread.

[cidbahamut]

I'm not going to sit here and let anyone give Red Mages questionable advice. Red Mage is in a deep enough hole already and anyone looking to play it needs all the help they can get. How you set up your macros is pretty darn important.

[Demon6324236]

I'm not going to sit here and let anyone give Red Mages questionable advice. Red Mage is in a deep enough hole already and anyone looking to play it needs all the help they can get. How you set up your macros is pretty darn important.

You would really continue to make more arguments spanning more threads across this forum just for a this? I doubt anyone who reads or posts on this forum is impressionable enough to actually take after a single persons ideas on a macro which isn't all to flawed seeing as its a big giant 2~3 seconds cast time for poison and Bio, if its bad, they will quickly learn to stop. Not worth turning another thread into a :mad:fest...

[cidbahamut]

Bro, you're derailing the thread at this point. Just let it go.

[0nionKn1ght]

The problem is that SE are happy to let their customers attack each other over these issues, instead of spending a little time in development to fix a fundamental flaw. They have told us it won't happen, like they told us for years with the 75 cap going up, RDM hitting the front line effectively, and chocobo breeding.

All those things made it in.

However, SE have a very thick history of poor technical knowledge, but with them being a JP company, are often too proud to admit to or accept they have made a fundamental mistake in design. I can only imagine how much head bowing took place at head office when XIV got the go ahead for a rebuild (and I lolled so much at how the 2 desginers spent around 20 minutes at the start of the first 2 videos just bowing their heads and apologising). What they need to do is absorb like World of Warcraft has done. Look at their addons. Omen is now ingame, Prattle is now ingame, Deadly Boss Mods for the most part is ingame, Quest Helper, and many many more, because their community, while vile to the point of execution, is listened to far more than this games.

We aren't asking for you to change the world SE, just get over yourselves and give us the basic functionality the game should have had since Patch 1. This is a simple list:

Unlimited, or greatly extended macro slot lines (You gave us more macros in total, now let us expand them)
TP Viewer across Alliance (how you haven't put this in yet, when one of the core battlefunctions relies on it is beyond any normal reasoning)
Ability to stop your target blinking when selected (another core mechanic that while great in function, in practicality drives you mental)

If you can honestly say that the above 3 functions are not possible because the PS2's power won't allow it, then im sorry, but your developers are seriously lacking in education. I can tell you now that a version of the above functions are available for both Xbox and PS2 also, so if a few smalltime basement fans can knock up something like that and plop it onto a memory card, im pretty sure a multi-national billion dollar company can too. Heck, if you don't know how to do it, contact the makers of said softwares and for heavens sake BUY IT, or ASK THEM HOW IT'S DONE, or HIRE THEM AND EDUCATE YOUR CURRENT EXCUSE GIVING TEAM!

[Demon6324236]

so if a few smalltime basement fans can knock up something like that and plop it onto a memory card, im pretty sure a multi-national billion dollar company can too. Heck, if you don't know how to do it, contact the makers of said softwares and for heavens sake BUY IT, or ASK THEM HOW IT'S DONE, or HIRE THEM AND EDUCATE YOUR CURRENT EXCUSE GIVING TEAM!

So many lols at that, so funny because its so true!

[0nionKn1ght]

So many lols at that, so funny because its so true!

Had to rewrite it so many times to avoid sounding too ranty or abusive, but the more I think on it, the more ridiculous SE look for hiding behind such paper thin excuses. I will never be abusive or rude towards a games developer, as the fact that they are even making the game in the first place is more than I can expect from most of the human race, but I will provide feedback, and passionately.

I love them so much for their games, but they infuriate me with their excuses around simple issues, that even me, with my limited knowledge of game design, have been able to theoretically solve using Google and a little trial and error.

They really need to get past this ideal of banning and suspending for use of certain things, and instead work out why they are being used, and implement their use, like they did with adding a windowed mode. More and more though, it just seems they are making excuses on the spur of the moment. I can't see how after 10 years of feedback on this specific issue, it still hasn't been solved, and yet we have pixies that cure and buff you, boss monsters that react to emotes, job specific emotes that can be cast on other players, and jobs that allow manipulation of the games weather. All that tech, and yet popping extensions into a pre-existing system is impossible because the PS2 would get upset.

SE, give it up and just get it done, your fans falter each time you claim it can't be, because it can, and it has.

[Dragoy]

So many lols at that, so funny because its so true!

Perhaps, but I do not have any doubts of them having the know, rather just not having the want.

That, and the resources (as in money), but more of the want, since they seem intent to keep the macro-system as is for some reason. Can be nothing but interested to see what the new UI with the 'plug-ins' will bring, but I'm not too hopeful of it helping with this due to their responses.

Oh well, time will tell.