ATTN: Dev/Comm. Rep -Relic & Mythic Weapons Reborn {Yes, Please}- レリックとミシックの強化

[Kiba]

First of all I just wanted to express my appreciation towards the Community Reps whom recently responded to the thread "The FFXI "Gyms of Vana'diel" Self Improvement Reborn!" Despite the disaster and trouble going on in Japan at the moment, I find it very valuable that initiative is being taken to progress during the game's downtime.

Today I have decided to compile the following listing of threads in regards to the current state of relic and mythic weapons in the game. So far I have only seen threads in the English and Japanese forums attempting to address this issue. For the French and German Communities if there are any threads related please reply to this thread so we can add to the compilation.

The purpose of this thread is to centralize the concerns voiced by players in regards to the current state of relic and mythic weapons that need to be improved due to imbalance that has been persisting ever since the introduction of Empyrean Weapons. I understand that there are players whom disagree or do not care. I would appreciate to keep this thread clean and focus on the purpose of allowing players to effectively address the concern to the development team. よろしく　おねがいします。/bow

レリックウェポンの取得条件緩和
http://bit.ly/fPSHWB

レリックとミシックの強化を！
http://bit.ly/i109ve

FIX Relic Weapons
http://bit.ly/e7j6Ck

[dev100x] Relic & Mythic Weapon Adjustments
http://bit.ly/e9nJUw

lolRelic Weapon? SE what have you done?
http://bit.ly/ie8Qgt

lolRelic-WS-For-those-who-don-t-believe-me
http://bit.ly/dNool6

Relic waffen Anpassung
http://bit.ly/hI5t8I

[Rambus]

found this:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/1059-Relic-waffen-Anpassung

german to english:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.square-enix.com%2Fffxi%2Fthreads%2F1059-Relic-waffen-Anpassung

[Alhanelem]

Something I've always wanted to ask for those asking for the weapons to be changed: Is there some measureable quantity of effort required for an item before SE isn't allowed to make something that's better or is obligated to provide a means for people to make their old stuff still the best? This is a serious question. And if so, What is that threshold?

[viion]

I honestly thought that they would let you upgrade Relics like you can with that Emp armor? I've not played since Abyssea and I returned fresh recently so I dont know how things work, but im assuming relics suxk now because of weapons that are above 75?

Why dont they let you +1 and +2 relics? Making them -some- (not the only) best 90 (or 99) weapons?

Maybe they have plans for relic when cap hits 99?

[Rambus]

Something I've always wanted to ask for those asking for the weapons to be changed: Is there some measureable quantity of effort required for an item before SE isn't allowed to make something that's better or is obligated to provide a means for people to make their old stuff still the best? This is a serious question. And if so, What is that threshold?

Look at it this way, if something is easy to get and better, why get harder to get that is inferior? This is the reason mythics are not really being made to begin with, most where bad from the start except SMN staff and WHM club.

All it does is make the older players mad that something takes 1 week should be best. everyone has best what is there to work for?


I honestly thought that they would let you upgrade Relics like you can with that Emp armor? I've not played since Abyssea and I returned fresh recently so I dont know how things work, but im assuming relics suxk now because of weapons that are above 75?

Why dont they let you +1 and +2 relics? Making them -some- (not the only) best 90 (or 99) weapons?

Maybe they have plans for relic when cap hits 99?

relics and mythics are upgradable but most emp ws are busted in power, relics still have the highest D rating but the emp ws makes that not matter.

the emp ws, most of them can crt so its amplified by that OP atma. (atma is a buff you get in abyssea area)

[Alhanelem]

I honestly thought that they would let you upgrade Relics like you can with that Emp armor?You can. But the empyrean WS are (mostly) better than the relic WS, and the final forms add a lot of a stat that is important to the weapon skill while the relics only add attack or accuracy.

However, The numbers i've seen saying the emp weapons are clearly better aren't factoring in the Relic's Occasionaly does 2.5-3x damage (depending on the weapon) which is always active and not an aftermath. The relic weapons, on paper, appear to very slightly edge out the Emps, but this is compensated for by the Emps having a vastly superior weapon skill in most cases. Most of the relic weaponskills are not really that great except for their skillchain property and additional effects.

[Ilax]

lol @Alhanelem you post around 100x to tell me how new dynamis update is all good, then come here to say SE have to stop updating they old content (power of weapon). just funny.... none the less...

i have an answer for you, but i rather keep it for me, i doubt it worth to destroy another thread with you :)

[Rambus]

You can. But the empyrean WS are (mostly) better than the relic WS, and the final forms add a lot of a stat that is important to the weapon skill while the relics only add attack or accuracy.

However, The numbers i've seen saying the emp weapons are clearly better aren't factoring in the Relic's Occasionaly does 2.5-3x damage (depending on the weapon) which is always active and not an aftermath. The relic weapons, on paper, appear to very slightly edge out the Emps, but this is compensated for by the Emps having a vastly superior weapon skill in most cases. Most of the relic weaponskills are not really that great except for their skillchain property and additional effects.

its too rare and only applays on first hit where emp ws after effect is on all hits.

after effect that applays on barrage for more then 2 hits is too much damage. (lest thats my understanding of them)

[viion]

ooo I seee. I didnt know you needed the weapon to do the specific WS, i thought it was like when you got the 500 points WS and you could use it on any weapon.

[Kiba]

Something I've always wanted to ask for those asking for the weapons to be changed: Is there some measureable quantity of effort required for an item before SE isn't allowed to make something that's better or is obligated to provide a means for people to make their old stuff still the best? This is a serious question. And if so, What is that threshold?
In my opinion the quantity of effort is not something that can be measured, judged or applicable towards determining the items benefits as many players question the effort it takes. On the other hand this is SE's game, the power lies within the development team to decide what is to be the best, the new introduced or allowing old to be upgraded. As I have mentioned in previous posts my hopes are not for relic and mythic weapons to be the best or better than empyrean weapons but adjustments made so that there is a reason to even use these weapons. I believe many would appreciate this as it would promote a diversity on weapon of choice.

[Rambus]

In my opinion the quantity of effort is not something that can be measured, judged or applicable towards determining the items benefits as many players question the effort it takes. On the other hand this is SE's game, the power lies within the development team to decide what is to be the best, the new introduced or allowing old to be upgraded. As I have mentioned in previous posts my hopes are not for relic and mythic weapons to be the best or better than empyrean weapons but adjustments made so that there is a reason to even use these weapons. I believe many would appreciate this as it would promote a diversity on weapon of choice.

Mythics need the most boosting with that logic ( just saying)

and it is something i agree with, more mythics need to be made then SMN staff and WHM club

[Unctgtg]

Lets not forget all the upgrades that we had to go through for the 9500 WS Killshots (before they lowered).

[Ilax]

多芸は無芸 [Too Many Accomplishments Make No Accomplishments]

Is all good to make everything easy, but it limit the satisfaction as well. I don't know tbh what the plan for SE, it kinda just scare me.

[Rambus]

ooo I seee. I didnt know you needed the weapon to do the specific WS, i thought it was like when you got the 500 points WS and you could use it on any weapon.


http://images.wikia.com/ffxi/images/4/4d/Trial2219.jpg
http://images.wikia.com/ffxi/images/6/6f/Yoichinoyumi85.png

who speaks good Japanese that’s posting in here?

[Ilax]

Mythics need the most boosting with that logic ( just saying)

and it is something i agree with, more mythics need to be made then SMN staff and WHM club

they already boosted the mythic, look @ mandau vs Mythics one... (Full upgraded one of course)

[Rambus]

they already boosted the mythic, look @ mandau vs Mythics one... (Full upgraded one of course)

I'm talking about BLM staff, SCH staff, BLU sword, BRD dagger, NIN weapon, RDM sword and so on, ones that dont really do anything for the job in use

convert macro?
elemental seal macro?
2 hr macro?

I really dont understand.

I dont know what sneak attack IV means to quote if its good, but having to mandalic stab for aftermath *Shiver*

[Ayasha]

多芸は無芸 [Too Many Accomplishments Make No Accomplishments]

Is all good to make everything easy, but it limit the satisfaction as well. I don't know tbh what the plan for SE, it kinda just scare me.

I actually agree with Ilax on this one. But there's no reason to be SCARED of what's coming, because we simply DON'T know what's coming.

Granted relics can be viewed as an accomplishment, but for a large chunk of completed relic weapons, the only accomplishment gained was spending huge amounts of money. I'm not downplaying the fact that there's a substantial amount of players who earned their weapons through hard work, I'm just saying that the term "Accomplishment" is subjective.

[Unctgtg]

I actually agree with Ilax on this one. But there's no reason to be SCARED of what's coming, because we simply DON'T know what's coming.

Granted relics can be viewed as an accomplishment, but for a large chunk of completed relic weapons, the only accomplishment gained was spending huge amounts of money. I'm not downplaying the fact that there's a substantial amount of players who earned their weapons through hard work, I'm just saying that the term "Accomplishment" is subjective.

You might wanna break that down even more. I spent over 250+ runs inside dynamis which = 41 IRL days inside there to get my relic, and even more time farming the gil for mine. Granted some relic holders did have their entire LS fund theirs.

[Rambus]

You might wanna break that down even more. I spent over 250+ runs inside dynamis which = 41 IRL days inside there to get my relic, and even more time farming the gil for mine. Granted some relic holders did have their entire LS fund theirs.

yeah i dont like how people underplay "money" or it is just "money"

maybe it is more of a stab how mythics take a lot of money and quest

[Alhanelem]

All it does is make the older players mad that something takes 1 week should be best. everyone has best what is there to work for? It happens in every MMO though, and FFXI fans have always had it better. In WoW, with every expansion, your top of the line gear is obsolete before you're even near the new level cap and even touched the new content.

[Runespider]

I self funded my relic, took me around a year to buy the 200mill worth of coins then a disgustingly long and boring amount of time to do the magian trials solo. I didn't even bother to do the last trial because they were a)in a dead event and b) empy weapons were still better.

You can get any empy weapon completeled in a couple of weeks and they blow fully upgraded relics out of the water. No justification for that at all. The more work = weaker end result :(

[Rambus]

It happens in every MMO though, and FFXI fans have always had it better. In WoW, with every expansion, your top of the line gear is obsolete before you're even near the new level cap and even touched the new content.

WoW never had a weapon that takes 1-5 years to do. ( to my knowalge)

this is not wow

I also dislike abyssea repalcing EVERYTHING! before when stuff was added it was more things to do.

[Megatron]

i guess your forgetting witthe new update. that peopel will be ableto go into dynamus once every RL day. which will make the value of dyna currency fall to all time low. not to mention that @ 90 doing dyna is a extreme joke. clearing the entire zone in a hour with 10 people was a laugh. at this rate. if you want a relic weapon you can solo one and with minimal cost.
people wanted it easier. now they got it easier. and jsut like maats cap owning a relic means nothing anymore. i wish it did but now it dont thx SE

[Flunklesnarkin]

I think relics and mythic's are sufficiently powerful.. given how easy salvage and dynamis has become.

Grinding out coins =/= challenge

They may not be the best weapon in the game anymore.. but they are still really good

[Rambus]

i guess your forgetting witthe new update. that peopel will be ableto go into dynamus once every RL day. which will make the value of dyna currency fall to all time low. not to mention that @ 90 doing dyna is a extreme joke. clearing the entire zone in a hour with 10 people was a laugh. at this rate. if you want a relic weapon you can solo one and with minimal cost.
people wanted it easier. now they got it easier. and jsut like maats cap owning a relic means nothing anymore. i wish it did but now it dont thx SE

who said they would keep drop rate like we know currently? tehehehe


I think relics and mythic's are sufficiently powerful.. given how easy salvage and dynamis has become.

Grinding out coins =/= challenge

They may not be the best weapon in the game anymore.. but they are still really good

killing mobs for one week =/= challenge

[Alhanelem]

I also dislike abyssea repalcing EVERYTHING! before when stuff was added it was more things to do. It's not like abyssea is a tiny little box with only one thing to do. Abyssea is 9 (technically 10) areas, full of all kinds of different things. That said, the final abyssea areas are designed for 90 cap, and the final level cap will be 99. We won't be spending all of our time in abyssea by the time of the final cap rise.

[Ilax]

will make the value of dyna currency fall to all time low.
that speculation only, as mine is when i say currency price will skyrock as it happen when they change price form 1m to 500k.


jsut like maats cap owning a relic means nothing anymore. i wish it did but now it dont thx SE

See that the next problem in all this: 多芸は無芸 [Too Many Accomplishments Make No Accomplishments]

Who know the real plan of SE, maybe they are doing dynamis V2 with new set of NM and E.wep owner be able to upgrade it, but only if they do dynamis, so in the end no one can complain. I don't really mind on that idea, it make sense also to give other a chance, but not at the cost to completely destroy the current mechanic/system of dynamis. [yes i am really worry about a 'open zone'] But who really know, SE is also merging more server together, so maybe is to free up resource for this new dynamsi v2. (Of course is free to dream)

No matter how they end to manage they update, i just hope is not something that will end as maat cap, to just name that piece of gear.

[Rambus]

It's not like abyssea is a tiny little box with only one thing to do. Abyssea is 9 (technically 10) areas, full of all kinds of different things. That said, the final abyssea areas are designed for 90 cap, and the final level cap will be 99. We won't be spending all of our time in abyssea by the time of the final cap rise.

That is like saying sky is good and so much to do because it has 5 zones, no its one event, same princaple, its like saying there is so much to do in dyna because there is 8 zones, things drop, you get items to +1 them.

dyna is one event, abyssea is one event, einherjar is one event (10 zones), limbus is one event ( lost count) and so on.

abyssea is the first time ever we ran into one event outdating everything, doing one thing is boring. abyssea was a nice change yes but it should not be the only thing to do. (even exp for lower levels)

abyssea is also the first time you got exp while farming for gear, abyssea changed FFXI more then you realize i think.

[Sama]

I should post a link to my recent screen shot of catastrophe and metsu, here is what I remember (both 90) ...

With VV/GH/RR

Catastrophe --> 250ish dmg
Blade: Metsu --> 150ish dmg

WTF right? I'm lost... And yes it's not the average damage, it's the worst moment i had with relic... How possibly the WS is worse than normal attack??????????????????????????????????????????


Metsu -->
http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss218/microwater888/lolMetsu.png

[Flunklesnarkin]

Regardless.. i think its silly to force people to do outdated content to obtain the best weapon in the game (if they uber buffed relic / mythic for some reason)

I don't think their ultimate plan is to make empyreans the end all be all of weapons either.

I'm hopeful that whatever new endgame they release has a new omfgwtfbbq weapon to aim for.

Nothing in the game is currently endgame.. nor should be viewed as such.. suggesting that relics/mythics should always be the best will not help restore balance to the game either.

[Alhanelem]

That is like saying sky is good and so much to do because it has 5 zones, no its one eventI would disagree with calling it "one event." THere's quests to complete, a storyline, a BCNM, NMs to kill, places to EXP... You didn't go to sky just for the event either... back in the day it was a popular place to EXP. But whether you call it "one event" or not, Abyssea has a lot of content, and a good amount of variation in that content. Yes, Abyssea changed things. But (mostly), they were good changes.


einherjar is one event (10 zones)Einherjar is actually one zone.



abyssea is the first time ever we ran into one event outdating everything,Dynamis outdated everything before it. Abyssea is what dynamis was when it was new.

Anyway... it's about quality more than anything else. The point was, abyssea isn't just a little bit of content. But as I said, we still have one or two more level caps to pass, and Abyssea is "done." Thus, we'll be doing something different or unique in a future version update, just as was the case with major updates after dynamis was finished, after assault was finished, etc.. I don't think this is something to be that worried about.

[Rambus]

I would disagree with calling it "one event." THere's quests to complete, a storyline, a BCNM, NMs to kill, places to EXP... You didn't go to sky just for the event either... back in the day it was a popular place to EXP. But whether you call it "one event" or not, Abyssea has a lot of content, and a good amount of variation in that content. Yes, Abyssea changed things. But (mostly), they were good changes.

Einherjar is actually one zone.

Dynamis outdated everything before it. Abyssea is what dynamis was when it was new.

Anyway... it's about quality more than anything else. The point was, abyssea isn't just a little bit of content. But as I said, we still have one or two more level caps to pass, and Abyssea is "done." Thus, we'll be doing something different or unique in a future version update, just as was the case with major updates after dynamis was finished, after assault was finished, etc.. I don't think this is something to be that worried about.

abyssea is one event, you do the same thing, you can't call them different cuz they are different zones.

Einherjar are different zones, you cannot enter with different people in same zone, but can if its different.

the only reason abyssea is so meny zone is because jobs need meny NMs for different drops.

if game was one job it be 1 zone.

Dynamis outdate sky? news to me, did sea outdate them? ein? limbus? salavge? assult?

[Kiba]

Regardless.. i think its silly to force people to do outdated content to obtain the best weapon in the game (if they uber buffed relic / mythic for some reason)
Which is why I believe the means to attain a relic or mythic should be revisited and adjusted to reflect challenge and accomplishment.


Nothing in the game is currently endgame.. nor should be viewed as such.. suggesting that relics/mythics should always be the best will not help restore balance to the game either.
Of course, this is why I expressed the purpose is not to support relics/mythics always being the best but to request adjustments done to enable relics and mythics to be comparable to empyrean weapons and more important a reason
to use relic and mythic weapons.

[Alhanelem]

abyssea is one event, you do the same thing, you can't call them different cuz they are different zones.

Einherjar are different zones, you cannot enter with different people in same zone, but can if its different.Err... what? Einherjar is ONE zone. it has different sections, yes, but it's one area. Saying this even contradicts your view of abyssea only being one thing even though it has different zones. Which abyssea is not one thing or one event- there are many things to do and they're seperate from each other. It's not like Sky or Sea where basically everything you do is really just part of reaching one big NM.

There are like 20 something original outdoor areas. Since Abyssea is just one event even though it has 9 areas, let's just cram it all into one area and cram all the outdoor areas into a couple. because having different areas is apparently meaningless. *rolls eyes*.


Nothing in the game is currently endgame.. nor should be viewed as such.This, this, and a thousand times this. Someone finally gets it.

Abyssea is neither a small amount of content, nor is it the only content, nor will it be the "final" content for level 99.

[Flunklesnarkin]

Im not sure they would be able to enact such a huge change to dynamis tho..

Completely reworking the zone and gearing it for higher level players would cost a lot more money and take a lot longer than just rearranging mobs in the zone to make farming relic gear easier.

The best way to make relic weapons challenging would be to make the upgrade trials challenging.

Even then.. i don't think making the relic/mythic the best weapons in the game is a great idea... they aren't the best now.. but they are still really really good.


Who knows.. maybe they will created a new uber dynamis zone with the new lvl 99 cap that will create challenge for upgrading relic weapons.

But completely reworking 10+ dynamis zones and gearing them for lvl 90+ w/o unbalancing the difficultly of farming relic gear for newer players seems nearly impossible to me.

[Alhanelem]

Dynamis outdate sky?Sky was released with the same expansion as Dynamis, and not very far apart from it. I don't really consider "Sky" to be "before" dynamis. Dynamis was released a few patches after Zilart came out. Sky was brand new, and you couldn't go there right away because you needed to do the missions, which weren't released all at once.

Before Dynamis, we had the artifact armor and their questlines. Most people got and used the AF a lot of time. Then Dynamis came out, and we got the relic armor, which mostly obsoleted the AF and it's content (Not entirely obsoleted, but many of the relic peices were the best at the time). Now we have the empyrean armor, which obsoletes the relic armor and its associated content. There is one main difference, and it's that a lot more time passed between the relic and Empyrean, so people got more used to having it. Even the events that came between dynamis and abyssea, most gear was on the same tier, or some items were incrementally better but not greatly.

If they didn't wait so many years to raise the level cap, people might not have been as bothered with it.

[Rambus]

Sky was released with the same expansion as Dynamis, and not very far apart from it. I don't really consider "Sky" to be "before" dynamis. Dynamis was released a few patches after Zilart came out. Sky was brand new, and you couldn't go there right away because you needed to do the missions, which weren't released all at once.

Before Dynamis, we had the artifact armor and their questlines. Most people got and used the AF a lot of time. Then Dynamis came out, and we got the relic armor, which mostly obsoleted the AF and it's content (Not entirely obsoleted, but many of the relic peices were the best at the time). Now we have the empyrean armor, which obsoletes the relic armor and its associated content. There is one main difference, and it's that a lot more time passed between the relic and Empyrean, so people got more used to having it. Even the events that came between dynamis and abyssea, most gear was on the same tier, or some items were incrementally better but not greatly.

If they didn't wait so many years to raise the level cap, people might not have been as bothered with it.

same expansion yes, same time? no sky was first , feel free to prove me wrong i may remember wrong.


Err... what? Einherjar is ONE zone. it has different sections, yes, but it's one area. Saying this even contradicts your view of abyssea ...

now you got my point, not my view no, im saying thats what your view is like calling abyssea zones different event.

the only different thing about abyssea as being one event is the campain like battle in it, i guess i should call it 2.

[Ilax]

Dynamis outdated everything before it. Abyssea is what dynamis was when it was new.
Hell no...

Think you missed his point, no update so far result to outdated everything one shot, other update pre-abyssea, everyone could still do different event to obtain different reward, then abyssea came in and destroyed all the non-abyssea content one shot, making most of old content worthless to do anymore, so yes can't really blame everyone to have jumped in it, it was not really a choice.

The good news in all that is everyone ended to love the idea of abyssea but when they look behind they see the cost of all this and they start worry. Is nice for many to have the top gear accessible, but is sad to see everyone with the same outfit. My suggestion already been said, that would cause no prob if the stats is the same but the look of the armor would be different depend the path you take.

So my suggestion is SE can still keep going with they easy content, but they should put more hardcore content that take forever to get, and they could give the same stats on it but a different texture/color. In the end everyone should be happy, if you wan a gold'ish armor then take the hard path, if you wan look like a brownies in your gear then take the easy path.

As much as you can just think is just an e-peen comment from me, is by far more then that, do i am saying casual player can't be as good as hardcore player, hell no, casual player can actually be way better then the hardcore player, but the key here is give a chance to both the feeling they are accomplish something. (even if for you is stupid to do more work just for a piece of gear that just have different color).

Best example of what i am talking is, SE could make all the NM you find in abyssea available in old content, that you can actually fight without atma, of course with some balance too, but for sure making them harder. In the end you get same 'stats' on this gear, but different look/color/texture.

[Sama]

Here it my SS right before server goes down:

SS ==> http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss218/microwater888/lolMetsu.png

Laugh all you want...

[Ilax]

Here it my SS right before server goes down:

SS ==> http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss218/microwater888/lolMetsu.png

Laugh all you want...

The thing i lol the most is how you post a picture that prove you using a 3rd party program on SE forum.

[Rambus]

Here it my SS right before server goes down:

SS ==> http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss218/microwater888/lolMetsu.png

Laugh all you want...

I dont find that funny I find that sad, if that doesn't say fix me i dont know what does

[Ilax]

I have plenty of SS too that show mandau do mercy stroke again Easy Prey mob for 63 to 127 dmg, i just never gonna understand how that work.

[Alhanelem]

Dynamis outdate sky?Sky came out a short while before dynamis (the missions granting access that is), an amount of time that, in today's standards, would be a single version update , but not many people had access to it or uncovered all of its secrets until well after dynamis was out. Content within the same add-on disc does not usually obsolete eachother, but usually does obsolete some or more stuff from the previous one. Sky was out, but in it's infancy when dynamis was new. It took a much longer time between the last content developed for 75 (the story add-ons) and content for post 75 (abyssea). That said, only a couple of items from sky were better than anything in dynamis (basically kirin drops, which kirin wasn't really being fought much at the time of dynamis' release), and the Byakko's Haidate, which was stupidly good at the time and is still useful today.

[THD]

2 things:

1) I've been playing since NA launch, 10/2003... Sky was available months before Dynamis
Sky proof: (Latest release had to be 12/6/2003) http://www.zam.com/wiki/December_16%2C_2003_Update_Notes_%28FFXI%29
Dynamis proof: (Released 2/26/2004) http://www.zam.com/wiki/February_26%2C_2004_Update_Notes_%28FFXI%29

2) I have a level 90 Tizona... it is so gimp compared to Almace in DD department... It's ONLY saving grace is the Double Attack proc rate for 300TP Expiacion; with my DA/TA build, I usually get 300TP back in <1:20, maximizing DMG->MP return (which still sucks at level IV). The ToAU and WotG jobs are doubly-screwed as they can't utilize any relics, limiting our choices even more. SE said they're saving the best for last @ lvl 99... I sure hope they follow through with that.

[Alhanelem]

Sky was available months before DynamisA few months, yes, I already stated that. I personally consider sky and dynamis effectively concurrent. The two events mostly overlapped and were done concurrently by players (largely becuase of the restrictions on dynamis). Sky was not obsoleted by dynamis, but Sky also didn't have as much stuff and not everybody benefited from it. So let me rephrase: Most stuff *before the release of the Zilart expansion* was obsoleted by Dynamis. sky neither obsoleted nor was obsoleted by dynamis.

You also need to remember that not everybody had access to sky the moment it was released, in fact very few did. You had to complete most of the Zilart missions first. Dynamis on the other hand only required something that many people had completed already.

[Chronofantasy]

Why not just allow there to be a NPC or quest involved to somehow merge the relic, mythic, and empyreal weapons together to combine the stats and maybe give a random augmented boost on the side? When doing this merging of the weapons though you have to specialize in the relic becoming a weapon only for one specific job though to do this. There should also be a cooldown period but after the cooldown period you can pry apart your merged weapons to make them individual again if you want to re-merge them or use them individually. With tweaked merged weapons and all combined WSs on one weapon that might solve everyone's issue of relic vs empyreal conflicts?

It's just an idea and might sound unbalanced, but I'm sure SE can figure out a way around that as well.

[Rambus]

Why not just allow there to be a NPC or quest involved to somehow merge the relic, mythic, and empyreal weapons together to combine the stats and maybe give a random augmented boost on the side? When doing this merging of the weapons though you have to specialize in the relic becoming a weapon only for one specific job though to do this. There should also be a cooldown period but after the cooldown period you can pry apart your merged weapons to make them individual again if you want to re-merge them or use them individually. With tweaked merged weapons and all combined WSs on one weapon that might solve everyone's issue of relic vs empyreal conflicts?

It's just an idea and might sound unbalanced, but I'm sure SE can figure out a way around that as well.

There is a different thread talking about that idea, it is a nice idea, a fusion quest but here is the problems of it:


Bow (RNG) > relic/ emp
Bow (SAM) > relic only
crossbow > mythic only
gun (COR)> mythic/ emp
gun (RNG)> Relic/emp
shield > relic/ emp
instruments> relic (horn)/ emp (string), not even the same type
BRD dagger > relic/ mythic/ emp
DNC dagger > Mythic / Emp
THF dagger > relic /mythic/ emp

point with dagger is that brd, dnc, thf use the weapons in different ways, thus how does that effect the result of the fusion? BRD using relic dagger does nothing for BRD's primary function.

Sword (BLU)> mythic/ emp
Sword (RDM/PLD) relic >mythic>emp

(like with dagger, sword fuction is way different for the jobs)

Great sword (war) > relic
Great sword (PLD/DRK) Relic/ emp
Axe ( bst) > relic /mythic/ emp
Axe ( War) > emp

Staff (BLM/SMN)> relic/ mythic/ emp
Staff (SCH) > mythic/ emp

I think thats all the conflits that exists for a fusion of weapons

This is why fusion quests can't work, there be too much left out ( like SAM using bow, war using axe) and so on. There is that issue or the fact some jobs might have OP issues ( like sam using a super, ultra bow)
sam with that relic bow is a fuzzy issue though, if SE makes that weapon strong again I guess it wouldn't matter. I still think there is too much conflict with weapons and job functions ( mythics where ment to be more job function then relics/ emps) relics and emps are just damage so emp club, emp staff are more appealing to magic casters then the other weapons.

I love the idea of fusion weapons like this thread suggests but stuff like i said needs to be work out. I think those problems would be overwhelming to implement such a thing.

Anddddd I am a bit offended you would make best brd instrument swring, strings suck and im sure the emp sucks if you marco, the only thing spechal about it is 3 songs.... ooooooooooooooh

How would you solve such issues?

[Unctgtg]

They even said they were lowering the drop rate for coins in dynamis.

[Rambus]

They even said they were lowering the drop rate for coins in dynamis.

I pointed to hint that because someone told me that but I never found where they stated it.

[Unctgtg]

I pointed to hint that because someone told me that but I never found where they stated it.

Check Dynamis reborn twitter

[Alhanelem]

In that same post, they said they still expect the currency supply to increase, most likely because of increased participation and being able to visit more often.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Relics have already been updates through trials to the points of stupidly amazing.
Did they do trails for Mystic? I didn't notice.

[Dew]

Point still stands that its not the weapons that need any fixing for Relic side. It's the ws's that need to be fixed. Mythics, yes they need an upgrade on the job specific part. Making Relic weapons their self's stronger won't fix anything. Both Relic and Mythic ws's are really weak.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Might as well update every WS while you're at it. You're talking about a 75 WS needing to be stronger then a 90 one.

[Alhanelem]

Might as well update every WS while you're at it. You're talking about a 75 WS needing to be stronger then a 90 one.
Many relic WS aren't that great at 75 either. They are more about additional effects and level 3 skillchain attributes. What you got when you got a relic was mainly a super strong weapon. The WS is usually just a bonus.

The relic WS could have been better, even before level cap rise.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Many relic WS aren't that great at 75 either. They are more about additional effects and level 3 skillchain attributes. What you got when you got a relic was mainly a super strong weapon. The WS is usually just a bonus.

The relic WS could have been better, even before level cap rise.Exactly, I already siad that with the trials they are stupidly powerful. So there's no need for an update to the WS.

[Kitkat]

Currently this is how I see the weapons based off their Additional effects, WS aftermath, WS TP mods, and Stats:

Emp weapons:
Game-breakingly overpowered.
Hidden effect: No? (heard only speculation on this so not certain since occurrences of higher than expected damage has been reported on normal strikes even when taking into account aftermath effect)
Stats: 2nd best base dmg : Delay ratio, +10-15 stat varies by weapon
WS Number of hits: 1-4 depending on WS
TP Mods: Primarily geared towards DD potential (this includes the ones that only "ignore defense")
TP % Mods: Increases dmg potential rather noticably
Aftermath: doubles the damage potential and processes often.
Duration: Varies by TP
Conclusion: Primarily DD oriented

Relic Weapons:
Highest DoT potential and player buff
Hidden Effect: Yes Occasionally does 2.5-3x damage
Stats: Highest base damage : Delay ratio +20~35 att or accuracy depending on weapon.
WS Number of Hits: 1....regardless of animation appearance
TP Mods: Adds various buff to individual such as Accuracy, critical hit rate, Shock Spikes, STP, Haste (All of which become obsolete in abyssea due to atma/cuor buffs pretty much capping you out already
TP % Mod: Other than increased Aftermath duration...........serves no purpose to store beyond 100% when you can regain that before aftermath effect wears off.
Aftermath: Primarily buffs player
Duration: Varies by TP
Conclusion: Primarily DoT oriented with player buff the goal.

Mythic Weapons:
Primarily Job Ability Augmenting weapons
Hidden effect: No
Stats: 3rd Highest base damage : Delay + increases Macc/Mab or additional job oriented secondary support function
WS Number of Hits: 1-6 hit varies by WS
TP Mods: Varies by weapon. May be debuff, damage increase, or critical chance
TP % Mod: Increases in most cases based off WS, in other cases increases duration or critical chance.
Aftermath: Varies by TP %
Duration: Varies by type of aftermath
Conclusion: Primarily enhances aspects of the job

Now taking this all into account, and understanding this isn't the problem people are having. The problem most are having is the fact that the WS damage isn't just lower by a little, but extremely lower to the point it is being out performed by WS that don't require a special weapon to even use. Most who completed the weapon don't want to use the WS even for the aftermath effect in abyssea because it is hardly worth activating over using a non-relic WS to get better damage returns that would be equal or more worth while after factoring the gain from the aftermath effect. This leaves the only real saving grace of the weapon.....the fact that it has a Hidden effect and that it is the highest DoT weapon. Otherwise it is almost not worth using in comparison. Even some mythics would be worth using over the relic due to this rationale just because the mythic augments job abilities and is noticeable.....where as the relic...is just for DoT.

That is what has all the relic owners up in arms, not the fact that Emp. just out Dmg them, but that they just aren't really worth the effort put into them anymore because SE was too afraid of breaking the game balance back when they were first added. Now SE has thrown caution to the wind and some of these weapons are so unbalanced that the jobs can low-man (1-2) certain things that otherwise take more individuals (4-8) to fight. If that isn't unbalanced...I don't know what is.

[hiko]

Relics have already been updates through trials to the points of stupidly amazing.
Did they do trails for Mystic? I didn't notice.

relic only gain base dmg though trials, and attack for one handed
2handed get more accuracy but since anybody cap acc in aby on most stuff with attack food, this boost does near to nothing for relics (allow to use attack food on the <5 monster where other use pizza?)

and MYTHIC (not mystic) got same kind of trial, get a new tier of "enhance JA" each new lvl cap,

[Rambus]

Not all mythics are lowest in D, some weapon types they are tied with relics:

http://images.wikia.com/ffxi/images/8/83/Trial2339.png
http://images.wikia.com/ffxi/images/1/15/Trial2667.png
http://images.wikia.com/ffxi/images/b/b1/Trial2669.png
course BLU and RDM are less:
http://images.wikia.com/ffxi/images/7/75/Trial2670.png
http://images.wikia.com/ffxi/images/5/5a/Trial2668.png

just one exmaple, dont really wanna fill this thread with pics though


and MYTHIC (not mystic) got same kind of trial, get a new tier of "enhance JA" each new lvl cap,

just some. see sword ^

[Malamasala]

See that the next problem in all this: 多芸は無芸 [Too Many Accomplishments Make No Accomplishments]

The game needs more options.

1. Relics, Mythics, Empyreans should be "accomplishment" weapons, taking time and effort.
2. Augment weapons should take little time, and allow you to combine any stats you want to make them your own style.

This would allow you to either put effort into a Nirvana, getting aftermath, pet MAB, -perpetuation, +accuracy. Or make your own -perpetuation and accuracy staff if you want one. 5 stats and really rare, or 2 stats of your choice out of these super weapons, so you can enjoy the game, but not enjoy being special.

Everyone would be happy, and nothing would be needed to be done easier. (Just add more "pick augments" quests)

[Kiba]

/waves at Camate again
plz look at this thread (^ ^ ; )/

[Unctgtg]

/waves at Camate again
plz look at this thread (^ ^ ; )/

bump for the sake of Camate seeing it again

[Rambus]

Who is Camate?

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Who is Camate?One of the MODs.

[Taint]

Screw the WS damage the ODD is what really makes Emps >>>> then relics. Anyone that says the Relic WS kill trials are easier then any 90 emp is on crack. Killing 8k+ mobs at 60/hr is borderline tortore, yes the mobs are easy but the task was gruling, mind numbing and tedious. I pumped out a 90 Emp 30ish hours if that and for the most part it was fun.

[Kiba]

bump for the sake of Camate seeing it again

yeah he was browsing forums for 4 hours this afternoon, was hoping to catch his attention. oh well ^^;

[Rambus]

The ODD on emps applying on all hits? is this correct? like it can proc on all 7 barrage arrows? or all rounds of H2H attack and kick attack? that part is OP yes but emp still deserve aftereffect.

Is Camate the person that posted on gym fourm? I do like they took interest in that but I really think this thread/issue is very big esp with older players

[Insaniac]

I have a Mandau which is still pretty competitive. There are relics however that got completely destroyed. Kikoku Spharai and Bravura are probably the most outclassed. So much so that the WoE version with just the Empyrean WS will out parse them. Relics should be competitive. They don't need to be hands down the best available but they should at least be in the running.

Mythics have always been about utility. Put things like "Enhances Refresh" on the rdm sword and put Meteor on the BLM staff. Add more damage enhancements to the DD weapons. THF and DRG are the only DD mythics I can think of that aren't 100% pointless.

ALMOST everyone who has a relic or mythic put months of time into it in one way or another. Just cause you can spend 90-200mil and buy one of these in a few days doesn't mean you didn't work your ass off for that gil. Relic and Mythics should be on equal standing with Empyreans. That way the masses can be appeased and those of us who put in the foot work can still be happy with the effort we put forth and not feel like it was wasted time.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

If you off hand a relic, do you still get the WS?

[Futan]

No, Tsukino. You only get the DMG/Delay from it(not the Attack or WS).

[Insaniac]

No, Tsukino. You only get the DMG/Delay from it(not the Attack or WS).

^ You also don't get the Add Effect or hidden 2/3x mod. 100% vanilla.

[Kiba]

Now that there is official information on when the servers will be back online, I would like to touch base on this topic by bumping. Community Team Representatives please give attention and review. The first post is a compilation of threads addressing issue with balance between relic, mythics, and empyreal weapons, suggesting adjustments made to relic and mythic weapons. The decision to take action or give a response on the validity of this issue lies in the hands of the development team, so we hope on behalf of players concerned with this issue that the community team can relay this to the development team for review. Thank you.

[Flunklesnarkin]

I suggest not trying to balance the 3

None of the weapons adequately represent eliteness people so desire

None are challenging to acquire anymore and will be even less so at lvl 99


They just need w/e new endgame is released to have new ultimate weapon paths..

have upgrades via magian trials for relic / mythic / empyrean to 99.. not to make them the best.. but still make them all decent second place pure DPS weapons

any balancing they try to do will just cause more anguish because there is no way to make 3 weapons of exactly equal stature.

[Runespider]

The thing to keep in mind here is that Square made Emps so easy to get that they can simple take the mindset that if your sad about the state of your relic just go get an Emp and be happy. As for that guy posting the relic WS doing low numbers, seen that on emps too, I think it happens when you miss the WS but the 2nd attack hits (from dual wield offhand weapon)


Community Team Representatives please give attention and review.

Square only take notice of the JP forums, better off trying to translate it (with babelfish or something) and put it there if you seriously want something read. Any other forum apart from the JP ones are just for spamming, they serve no use in terms of devs reading any of it.

[Catsby]

Parity between mythic, relic and empyrean weapons would be nice but a current generation development cycle would be nicer. I want to see this thread crammed down a developer's throat so they understand that adding dumb new crap every 3 months isn't going to win over as many people as hard scrutiny and reworking of old and broken systems.

[Detoxy]

Well since magian trials make more powerful versions think of some way to get the 75 relic or mythic ezier. I couldnt say how thats a whole other topic.

[Auredant]

Parity between mythic, relic and empyrean weapons would be nice but a current generation development cycle would be nicer. I want to see this thread crammed down a developer's throat so they understand that adding dumb new crap every 3 months isn't going to win over as many people as hard scrutiny and reworking of old and broken systems.
Agreed...tho it seems they're making relic aquisition easier by allowing dynamis entrance daily along with the one time KI aquisition purchase. As far as Mythics are concerned, the only thing i think needs fixing is the alex requirement. 10k or even 5k please is far more reasonable.

[Kiba]

Square only take notice of the JP forums, better off trying to translate it (with babelfish or something) and put it there if you seriously want something read. Any other forum apart from the JP ones are just for spamming, they serve no use in terms of devs reading any of it.
The jp threads listed are from these forums, I had to use the bit shortened service since the jp character in url's was not working when posting.

[Rambus]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/727-%E3%83%AC%E3%83%AA%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF%E3%82%A6%E3%82%A7%E3%83%9D%E3%83%B3%E3%81%AE%E5%8F%96%E5%BE%97%E6%9D%A1%E4%BB%B6%E7%B7%A9%E5%92%8C

sorry just testing, works for me ><

try copy and paste in firefox

[Cream_Soda]

Dear SE, I'm tired of being jealous of emp weapons. Please change this.

Love,
Relic holdrs

[Atomic_Skull]

i guess your forgetting witthe new update. that peopel will be ableto go into dynamus once every RL day. which will make the value of dyna currency fall to all time low

They're also lowering the drop rates on currency and "adjusting" the mobs (which most likely means increasing the difficulty) to compensate for that.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

They're also lowering the drop rates on currency and "adjusting" the mobs (which most likely means increasing the difficulty) to compensate for that.And not all piled together and/or nonlinking.

[Atomic_Skull]

In that same post, they said they still expect the currency supply to increase, most likely because of increased participation and being able to visit more often.

They said they expect currency distribution to increase actually. That doesn't specifically mean more currency actually entering the server.

[Auredant]

The jp threads listed are from these forums, I had to use the bit shortened service since the jp character in url's was not working when posting.
Mod actually took notice and commented on THe GYms forum

[Kiba]

Mod actually took notice and commented on THe GYms forum

Checked the gyms thread and did not find the mod post. Thanks, hopefully we can have a response so that the playerbase can have an official answer on the current intended stand of relic and mythic weapons in game. In the meantime pretty
nice organizing of forum categories. Forum mods please move this thread to Gameplay > Battle Content. Thank you.

[Auredant]

Checked the gyms thread and did not find the mod post. Thanks, hopefully we can have a response so that the playerbase can have an official answer on the current intended stand of relic and mythic weapons in game. In the meantime pretty
nice organizing of forum categories. Forum mods please move this thread to Gameplay > Battle Content. Thank you.
It's response#36 of the "Gyms of Vanadiel" forum. And I'm one of the people that thinks the devs will make Relics at least equal,if not superior, by the time we hit 99. It will be interesting to see.

[Unctgtg]

I actually just read all the Jp forum things and also expressing even more then we are over here.

[Rambus]

I actually just read all the Jp forum things and also expressing even more then we are over here.

From what i can tell they have a lot less trolling and more good information going back and forth.

[Kitkat]

Well, I think that is cause JP in general are usually more productive where as the NA/English forums are typically more ridden with epeen/cynicism/proof or gtfo mentalities. BG, KI, Alla...just about anywhere you can go you'll run into the same trolling, the biggest difference is if the moderation team puts a stop to it or not before it goes too far. Not saying the mods of the forum here aren't doing their jobs, just that other places are a little more quick to stop something depending on how the topic is evolving than here.

Would be nice if we had the same exchange of information going on here also, but instead it is more a spitting match between Relic/emp/mythic owners or "out with the old, in with the new" comments. Factoring the emp weapon holders out (who don't have relic or mythic to compare/contrast the issues people see a conflict with) there is an obvious agreement that while SE has tried to keep the weapons worth the effort, they haven't quite met players expectations based on the amount of effort that had to be put into the weapons to get them to their current final state. Some aren't worth even macroing in or using over other options that take much less effort/time.

I've racked my brain trying to figure out how SE could enhance/rectify the issue without ruining the balance and currently I'm still not sure.

Thought of possibly increasing proc rate for 2.5-3x dmg (only equal to the potential of the ODD of Emp), or increase to FTP values (maybe both), but other than this I couldn't think of any way to make relics somewhat more worthy of use over emp without ruining balance.

Can't change the WS to have TP mods (outside of the current Aftermath effect and duration) without possibly making them too strong or having to remove another part of the weapon such as the additional effects (though I'm sure some wouldn't mind this, while others would).

Turning some of the WS that look like multi-hit (Mercy Stroke, Onslaught, etc) into true multihit would need an accompanying fTP nerf which in the end might not make the WS any better since they still don't have a TP mod (IE: Chance of Critical, Increase DMG, Ignore defense, etc).

Possibly fixing some of the odd Primary Stat mods might help, but that would conflict with the fact Emp weapons have odd mods that some jobs never used in the past also.

I'm not exactly certain on what the issue Mythic holders have since I never looked into it too far. I just know that people aren't happy with the minimal difference the 90 versions have over the 75 versions due to the effort it takes to get them to that point. The only real noticeable difference I've heard stated is just the increase base damage, but other than this the weapon was said to be "not worth the time or effort to upgrade to 90."

[Vortex]

I think this is why they are changing dynamis to 1 once a day, due to relics getting matched, so it will just be easier to get them in due time.


Also....It seems the mods are having a fun time with bahamut lol.

[Rambus]

Well, I think that is cause JP in general are usually more productive where as the NA/English forums are typically more ridden with epeen/cynicism/proof or gtfo mentalities. BG, KI, Alla...just about anywhere you can go you'll run into the same trolling, the biggest difference is if the moderation team puts a stop to it or not before it goes too far. Not saying the mods of the forum here aren't doing their jobs, just that other places are a little more quick to stop something depending on how the topic is evolving than here.

Would be nice if we had the same exchange of information going on here also, but instead it is more a spitting match between Relic/emp/mythic owners or "out with the old, in with the new" comments. Factoring the emp weapon holders out (who don't have relic or mythic to compare/contrast the issues people see a conflict with) there is an obvious agreement that while SE has tried to keep the weapons worth the effort, they haven't quite met players expectations based on the amount of effort that had to be put into the weapons to get them to their current final state. Some aren't worth even macroing in or using over other options that take much less effort/time.

I've racked my brain trying to figure out how SE could enhance/rectify the issue without ruining the balance and currently I'm still not sure.

Thought of possibly increasing proc rate for 2.5-3x dmg (only equal to the potential of the ODD of Emp), or increase to FTP values (maybe both), but other than this I couldn't think of any way to make relics somewhat more worthy of use over emp without ruining balance.

Can't change the WS to have TP mods (outside of the current Aftermath effect and duration) without possibly making them too strong or having to remove another part of the weapon such as the additional effects (though I'm sure some wouldn't mind this, while others would).

Turning some of the WS that look like multi-hit (Mercy Stroke, Onslaught, etc) into true multihit would need an accompanying fTP nerf which in the end might not make the WS any better since they still don't have a TP mod (IE: Chance of Critical, Increase DMG, Ignore defense, etc).

Possibly fixing some of the odd Primary Stat mods might help, but that would conflict with the fact Emp weapons have odd mods that some jobs never used in the past also.

I'm not exactly certain on what the issue Mythic holders have since I never looked into it too far. I just know that people aren't happy with the minimal difference the 90 versions have over the 75 versions due to the effort it takes to get them to that point. The only real noticeable difference I've heard stated is just the increase base damage, but other than this the weapon was said to be "not worth the time or effort to upgrade to 90."

I do not know about you but new = better is not a vaild agurment for me.

A lot of mythics are subpar vs common weapons or emp weapons.

Do you really want to spend 120 M- 150 M +2 month wait for a weapon that is jsut a convert macro or ES macro?
Or improving a 2hr that is not great to begin with?
I really think NIN mythic should improve yonin and innin.

what does NIN mythic even do to mijin Gakure anymore? You get the no weak without it now


I think this is why they are changing dynamis to 1 once a day, due to relics getting matched, so it will just be easier to get them in due time.


Also....It seems the mods are having a fun time with bahamut lol.
making relics easier to get is not a fix though.. I do not mind them getting a bit easier to get but there still be some sort of a lot of effort things that people with more time can go after. Easy to see when people get board people quit.

[Kitkat]

Well, this also depends on how else they change dynamis. Currently on my server...only 2-3 LS even still do dynamis and maybe a couple lowman groups. Other than getting currency, a choice piece for certain jobs, or relic NM's hardly no one has any initiative to do it, so depending on what other changes they have aside from gaining experience..there may be a lower availability if it doesn't draw people back in. I say lower cause they are adjusting drop rate of currency since access restrictions are being made more lax.

The only way it will stay the same or increase overall in distribution is if SE does something else that makes people see it as worth while again since 95% of the gear is out done by Abyssea gear and most people are already capped on xp/merits as is, so adding the ability to get xp of the mobs doesn't really seem appealing to me.

[Rambus]

Well, this also depends on how else they change dynamis. Currently on my server...only 2-3 LS even still do dynamis and maybe a couple lowman groups. Other than getting currency, a choice piece for certain jobs, or relic NM's hardly no one has any initiative to do it, so depending on what other changes they have aside from gaining experience..there may be a lower availability if it doesn't draw people back in. I say lower cause they are adjusting drop rate of currency since access restrictions are being made more lax.

The only way it will stay the same or increase overall in distribution is if SE does something else that makes people see it as worth while again since 95% of the gear is out done by Abyssea gear and most people are already capped on xp/merits as is, so adding the ability to get xp of the mobs doesn't really seem appealing to me.

really? There is still a bunch on my server, once a guy was shouting to do bastok, saying he wanted to reserve one 100-byne. I told him that ant a really a good idea, that you have better returns doing a sandy. I told him that one 100 byne does not break even with glass. (trying to inform people something may not be a good idea and get head bit off -.-, was wondering if he really knew what people bought and sold currecy for)

he told me not to tell him how to play so w/e even if he did make a bit out with that 100 + singles still did not seem worth it. ( I do not see how a 100-200k gil for 4 hrs +stress trying to lead a pug dyna is worth it)

anyways my server has a lot of pug dyna for NA and JP players, once i even saw a shout inviting people that was on the 85-90 trial.

SE said they want you gain exp off these dyna mobs with the changes to dyna, so i really hope they do other things like make them higher level so you gain real exp off them and get other gear so people are not fighting over currency if they make it like WoE ( for the love of god i hope it is not like WoE)

I have no idea how restricted entry would work off KI though.

[Vortex]

what does NIN mythic even do to mijin Gakure anymore? You get the no weak without it now

You raise with full hp, instead of half, which is ok if you have it, but most certainly not worth the effort to get it.



making relics easier to get is not a fix though.. I do not mind them getting a bit easier to get but there still be some sort of a lot of effort things that people with more time can go after. Easy to see when people get board people quit.

.....what?

[Rambus]

It means making relics easier to get so it is ok to be weaker then emps is not a fix or a solution.

some people tried to say that in other places, I do not know if you where. my only point is this, I do not care if they are a bit easier to get after update, that is not an excuse to have emps outperform them.


You raise with full hp, instead of half, which is ok if you have it, but most certainly not worth the effort to get it.

well SE can start to fix that one by putting yonin and innin on it

[Unctgtg]

Lol at that Bahmanut guy, all his posts are being deleted. :)

[Mordanthos]

IDK why people say EMPS are soooo easy to obtain. I mean, i am so unmotivated to get the Almace for my Paladin because of all the steps it takes to get it. Its horrible. Just the first Trial is kill a lvl 15 NM 3 times. Ok sounds easy. Except its on a 1 hour respawn timer, and spawns in 2 places, so already with the luckiest of all lucky people, the best amount of time to complete this trial is 3 hours, assuming 1, there arent other people doing it, and 2, you get em every hour. After that junk is over, the next NM is like...4-5 times or something i think. So on top of the 3 hours you already spent being bored out of your mind, your about to add another 4-5 hours onto that. And your only at trial 2 of like, 12-15 of these things. After you SOMEHOW manage to get through all these NM killing garbage trials (which i just cant see how anyone can even withstand the torture of these stupid NM trials) you get to the obtain 25/50/75 of these items from a NM in Abyssea. Awesome, except, they drop like 1-2 of the item, or maybe even 0, and to make things worse, if you got more people with you who need this stuff, well your just screwed, and its going to be a LOOONG TIME before u get 25, or 50, or 75 of these items. Finally..when you get to the last couple trials trading some of the kindred crests, high kindred crests, all that hard work is infinitely made 400 million times easier, which doesnt make sense to me why it curves from being so hard, to being so easy, but whatever.

The point is, the Steps to go through to get to a fully upgraded Empyreum weapon are just rediculous, and it has got to take weeks to just even get through 1 or 2 of these NM trials sometimes, not to mention you have like 12 or more of these NM trials that its just near IMPOSSIBLE TO SAY THAT EMPYREUM WEAPONS ARE EASY TO GET. After looking at allllll the crap i have to do on the WIKI, i am just so unmotivated to dedicate that amount of time into getting that weapon.

Stop saying Empyreum is easy, from what i see, its looks fricken annoying and takes rediculous amounts of time and patience.

[Kaida]

IDK why people say EMPS are soooo easy to obtain. I mean, i am so unmotivated to get the Almace for my Paladin because of all the steps it takes to get it. Its horrible. Just the first Trial is kill a lvl 15 NM 3 times. Ok sounds easy. Except its on a 1 hour respawn timer, and spawns in 2 places, so already with the luckiest of all lucky people, the best amount of time to complete this trial is 3 hours, assuming 1, there arent other people doing it, and 2, you get em every hour. After that junk is over, the next NM is like...4-5 times or something i think. So on top of the 3 hours you already spent being bored out of your mind, your about to add another 4-5 hours onto that. And your only at trial 2 of like, 12-15 of these things. After you SOMEHOW manage to get through all these NM killing garbage trials (which i just cant see how anyone can even withstand the torture of these stupid NM trials) you get to the obtain 25/50/75 of these items from a NM in Abyssea. Awesome, except, they drop like 1-2 of the item, or maybe even 0, and to make things worse, if you got more people with you who need this stuff, well your just screwed, and its going to be a LOOONG TIME before u get 25, or 50, or 75 of these items. Finally..when you get to the last couple trials trading some of the kindred crests, high kindred crests, all that hard work is infinitely made 400 million times easier, which doesnt make sense to me why it curves from being so hard, to being so easy, but whatever.

The point is, the Steps to go through to get to a fully upgraded Empyreum weapon are just rediculous, and it has got to take weeks to just even get through 1 or 2 of these NM trials sometimes, not to mention you have like 12 or more of these NM trials that its just near IMPOSSIBLE TO SAY THAT EMPYREUM WEAPONS ARE EASY TO GET. After looking at allllll the crap i have to do on the WIKI, i am just so unmotivated to dedicate that amount of time into getting that weapon.

Stop saying Empyreum is easy, from what i see, its looks fricken annoying and takes rediculous amounts of time and patience.

I used to think this until I started working on my own weapon


getting the gems for my gun took 2 days. About 8-9 hours total really not that hard to get if you have 5-8 people some farming popsets while some kill the NM and no one is camping against you :D (oh and i lucked out and only got the single drop twice)

If it was not for the downtime I'm sure I would have the 85 stage by now.

True the NM path took a while but compared to a mythic, and relic an emp is a joke to get, but in its self is an accomplishment


As the post below me says
In short, there's no reason why an empyrean weapon holder should feel any less about they're accomplishment
PS also you may wanna look into the trails again. Kindred seals are not for the emp weapons, but for the walk of echos weapons with the weaponskills

[Auredant]

IDK why people say EMPS are soooo easy to obtain. I mean, i am so unmotivated to get the Almace for my Paladin because of all the steps it takes to get it. Its horrible. Just the first Trial is kill a lvl 15 NM 3 times. Ok sounds easy. Except its on a 1 hour respawn timer, and spawns in 2 places, so already with the luckiest of all lucky people, the best amount of time to complete this trial is 3 hours, assuming 1, there arent other people doing it, and 2, you get em every hour. After that junk is over, the next NM is like...4-5 times or something i think. So on top of the 3 hours you already spent being bored out of your mind, your about to add another 4-5 hours onto that. And your only at trial 2 of like, 12-15 of these things. After you SOMEHOW manage to get through all these NM killing garbage trials (which i just cant see how anyone can even withstand the torture of these stupid NM trials) you get to the obtain 25/50/75 of these items from a NM in Abyssea. Awesome, except, they drop like 1-2 of the item, or maybe even 0, and to make things worse, if you got more people with you who need this stuff, well your just screwed, and its going to be a LOOONG TIME before u get 25, or 50, or 75 of these items. Finally..when you get to the last couple trials trading some of the kindred crests, high kindred crests, all that hard work is infinitely made 400 million times easier, which doesnt make sense to me why it curves from being so hard, to being so easy, but whatever.

The point is, the Steps to go through to get to a fully upgraded Empyreum weapon are just rediculous, and it has got to take weeks to just even get through 1 or 2 of these NM trials sometimes, not to mention you have like 12 or more of these NM trials that its just near IMPOSSIBLE TO SAY THAT EMPYREUM WEAPONS ARE EASY TO GET. After looking at allllll the crap i have to do on the WIKI, i am just so unmotivated to dedicate that amount of time into getting that weapon.

Stop saying Empyreum is easy, from what i see, its looks fricken annoying and takes rediculous amounts of time and patience.

Yes and no. In comparison they are alot less time consuming than getting a relic. But people really exaggerate how easy it is. And they always use the easiest trials as an example. Especially Kannagi. "Just go solo ur Emp eapon in 3days to a week."Always exclude the prelimanary leg work of campin the easy nms. And soloing the vnms is great if ur a nin, maybe a few other jobs...but what if your a drg for instance and need shoggoth? And, this may be a news flash...but not every nin can solo equally. And I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of people posting that they're soloable had help. And while I don't doubt that there have been people that completed it in a week, I wouldn't say that's the norm and I'm extremely skeptical that they soloed it in that time. Just the time u need to gather the Ki for all the kills u need could take a week, unless you live on this game and farm a massive amount of time beforehand (which, in itself, takes time). So, possible in a week for some of the trials. YES. But by that rational it's possible to get a relic in less than 2 weeks. In short, there's no reason why an empyrean weapon holder should feel any less about they're accomplishment. Don't let yourselves get brainwashed by the propaganda.

[Taint]

IDK why people say EMPS are soooo easy to obtain. I mean, i am so unmotivated to get the Almace for my Paladin because of all the steps it takes to get it. Its horrible. Just the first Trial is kill a lvl 15 NM 3 times. Ok sounds easy. Except its on a 1 hour respawn timer, and spawns in 2 places, so already with the luckiest of all lucky people, the best amount of time to complete this trial is 3 hours, assuming 1, there arent other people doing it, and 2, you get em every hour. After that junk is over, the next NM is like...4-5 times or something i think. So on top of the 3 hours you already spent being bored out of your mind, your about to add another 4-5 hours onto that. And your only at trial 2 of like, 12-15 of these things. After you SOMEHOW manage to get through all these NM killing garbage trials (which i just cant see how anyone can even withstand the torture of these stupid NM trials) you get to the obtain 25/50/75 of these items from a NM in Abyssea. Awesome, except, they drop like 1-2 of the item, or maybe even 0, and to make things worse, if you got more people with you who need this stuff, well your just screwed, and its going to be a LOOONG TIME before u get 25, or 50, or 75 of these items. Finally..when you get to the last couple trials trading some of the kindred crests, high kindred crests, all that hard work is infinitely made 400 million times easier, which doesnt make sense to me why it curves from being so hard, to being so easy, but whatever.

The point is, the Steps to go through to get to a fully upgraded Empyreum weapon are just rediculous, and it has got to take weeks to just even get through 1 or 2 of these NM trials sometimes, not to mention you have like 12 or more of these NM trials that its just near IMPOSSIBLE TO SAY THAT EMPYREUM WEAPONS ARE EASY TO GET. After looking at allllll the crap i have to do on the WIKI, i am just so unmotivated to dedicate that amount of time into getting that weapon.

Stop saying Empyreum is easy, from what i see, its looks fricken annoying and takes rediculous amounts of time and patience.


If that is really your thoughts on getting an Emp, then Relics would be nearly impossible.

My 90emp was knocked out in a just a few runs. Even the NM trials I teamed up with multiple others to speed them up. My Apoc was LS sponsored, 2 dynamis runs a week for a year, 1/3 on Attest and then 1/5 on Fragment (Feb2007 give me a break :p) that was all with 25ish people helping me complete it.

My almost 2nd Relic the currency was purchased by me, took 3-4 months to round it all up. I started turning it in since my LS was going to spam Attest runs for me. 0/12 later my LS calls that off. I then try to merc it off various shells that were also doing Attest runs. 0/18ish later and other shells being capped I ended up selling all my currency. Emps don't have cock blocks or random drops.

I found this pic:

http://beast40.com/FFXI/rngdec.gif

[Unctgtg]

Hey ya Taint you following me?

[Neofire]

Another general patton speech about making relics the nest weapons in the game again. Look people the same thing will happen, if SE decides to listen to this crap, emp weapon holders(including me) will rage when they see all there hard work throw by the way side by a almost decade old weapon. Just to please a few cry babies(and yes I said few)because there are very few NA with them seeing that FF11 has been out for 10 years its embarrassing. That's Why' not many pursue it and beforr the emp weaponskills were released hardly anyone was birching but now that the game has been down for a few weeks all I hear is gimme gimme gimme: gimme better relics, gimme better macros, gimme more space. And people not seeing that there are reasons SE hasn't addressed most of it. And my guess is because people always show the selfish side of their ideas, hell I love emp weapons I didn't beg SE to add them to the game, the same abyssea or ant other feature but alot of people like them. And just to please a few hardcore players people won't some of those features taken out.

[Unctgtg]

Neofire we aren't asking SE to change emp because they are already easy to obtain, we are asking them to make relics (AS they have stated before) that relics/mythics will be top teir.

[Kitkat]

My ls got almace to 85 in little over a week worth of work. I already have it up to vnm stage after 2 days worth of camping nm. It took an ls nearly 3 months or more of spamming a specific zone to get a stage 3 to 4, so yes.....Emp weapons are super easy to complete >.>

[Neofire]

Neofire we aren't asking SE to change emp because they are already easy to obtain, we are asking them to make relics (AS they have stated before) that relics/mythics will be top teir.
Yes and making emp weapons obsolete because the are easy to get(which has been stated many times). I'm sure SE didn't Intend for people to be able to obtain emp weapons so easy but just like relics people find ways to get them faster through gil, ball-shinning or whatever.

[Auredant]

My ls got almace to 85 in little over a week worth of work. I already have it up to vnm stage after 2 days worth of camping nm. It took an ls nearly 3 months or more of spamming a specific zone to get a stage 3 to 4, so yes.....Emp weapons are super easy to complete >.>

Yeah...super easy...if you have your ls do it for you. Not an option for everyone. I am in agreement that relics take longer but to say it's easy and then say my ls got it in a week...Using that same logic an ls can pool all their gil together...do a couple dyna runs...and get someone a relic in under 2 weeks.

[Cenz]

You might wanna break that down even more. I spent over 250+ runs inside dynamis which = 41 IRL days inside there to get my relic, and even more time farming the gil for mine. Granted some relic holders did have their entire LS fund theirs.

thats not fair tug tug .... your rich!!!

[Chiibi]

Correct me if im wrong... but arnt the empy weapons supposed to be the "God-tier" of their weapon class?

[Unctgtg]

thats not fair tug tug .... your rich!!!

U should ask my Aby. set how much I have lol

[Kiba]

Today's bump for another attempt for attention ^^
Forum Mod/Comm. Rep Please move this thread to Gameplay > either Items or Battle Content
I noticed the jp threads addressing the same issue have been moved to those forums.

and just to restate:
Community Team Representatives please give attention and review. The first post in this thread is a compilation of threads addressing issue with balance between relic, mythics, and empyreal weapons, suggesting adjustments made to relic and mythic weapons. The decision to take action or give a response on the validity of this issue lies in the hands of the development team, so we hope on behalf of players concerned with this issue that the community team can relay this to the development team for review. An official response would be very appreciated ^^ Thank you.

[Rambus]

Yes and no. In comparison they are alot less time consuming than getting a relic. But people really exaggerate how easy it is. And they always use the easiest trials as an example. Especially Kannagi. "Just go solo ur Emp eapon in 3days to a week."Always exclude the prelimanary leg work of campin the easy nms. And soloing the vnms is great if ur a nin, maybe a few other jobs...but what if your a drg for instance and need shoggoth? And, this may be a news flash...but not every nin can solo equally. And I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of people posting that they're soloable had help. And while I don't doubt that there have been people that completed it in a week, I wouldn't say that's the norm and I'm extremely skeptical that they soloed it in that time. Just the time u need to gather the Ki for all the kills u need could take a week, unless you live on this game and farm a massive amount of time beforehand (which, in itself, takes time). So, possible in a week for some of the trials. YES. But by that rational it's possible to get a relic in less than 2 weeks. In short, there's no reason why an empyrean weapon holder should feel any less about they're accomplishment. Don't let yourselves get brainwashed by the propaganda.

I am getting an emp for my self the sword

I was not hard core on it but this is what I did:
first night I killed some serrpord ishatar
then i went to kill tottering toby before ls event
I did drooling daisy that night to next day

gargantua I killed just before ls event and i got back before it pop again
killed it few more times.

megaloudbard I wait and camp it and team up with this other guy that ran by after 3 kills I was /rng and i taught him how PH work with wide scan in knowing witch one is PH

Ratatoskr is like gargantua, i killed one before ls event and got back to pop place after event

VNM I had scorp I got help because the scrop is hard with aoe and such
then i had pugail and i soloed the bug versions, in past zone it was not using 2 hr or tp move, i asked some frineds if they wanted to tag along and they did.
Tammuz I try looking one night for liek 1 hr and all that was poping was cat.
so i went to sleep and try again nexty day.
I try to solo it and had no luck , i asked frined to help me and they did.

so overall nm was solo to duo cept for scorp, when i was doing scrop there was ls memeber that was free so i went to do it.

for briarus I exp a lot so in exp pt i get KI then go pop and kill it with brew.

I really do not like soloing and i am kind of bad at it, I do understand some emps are way harder then others like i help a friend do some gaivoids. with good friends though people do actally have them that took a week. there is people that did a better job then me in getting emps.

But people went in detail how they got thiers done in a week even with harder ones like h2h? and dagger.


Yeah...super easy...if you have your ls do it for you. Not an option for everyone. I am in agreement that relics take longer but to say it's easy and then say my ls got it in a week...Using that same logic an ls can pool all their gil together...do a couple dyna runs...and get someone a relic in under 2 weeks.

only if you have gil before hand, to earn that kind of gil in 2 weeks even if everyone farms it for you?

even NIN did not get relics that fast, they got a lot and fast selling rare ex items but not that fast.


Yes and making emp weapons obsolete because the are easy to get(which has been stated many times). I'm sure SE didn't Intend for people to be able to obtain emp weapons so easy but just like relics people find ways to get them faster through gil, ball-shinning or whatever.

emp weapons where made to bridge have and have nots, there is a lot of gear like that.

not all emp weapons are the best, and that fact is shown a lot better outside abyssea, it is only a few

so its likey SE overlooked the bonuses of atma and such

i/e any emp that outperfromed a relic is likey a mistake.

I am not going to rage when my sword is underperform mythic ( blu, rdm, pld) and relic for PLD, rdm, blu.
it is to be expected.

I thnk its somewhat strange you really expected these weapons to outdo relics/ mythics.

why rage?

[Kitkat]

Yeah...super easy...if you have your ls do it for you. Not an option for everyone. I am in agreement that relics take longer but to say it's easy and then say my ls got it in a week...Using that same logic an ls can pool all their gil together...do a couple dyna runs...and get someone a relic in under 2 weeks.

I find it incredibly amusing you state this knowing full well that there is probably, at best, only a small handful of LS willing to pool resources like that into finishing one relic weapon in 2 weeks. Not to mention that you think there is enough currency in circulation for that to be plausible. Especially when there isn't much of anything to gain for the rest of the LS out of it, no benefit what so ever.

Doing Emp weapons, you get the benefit of gaining +2 items for legs, body, head, etc for 85+ trials. This benefits not only the person getting the drops for the weapon but others helping the person get the weapon done.

Additionally, none of these nm's require anywhere near the effort to kill let alone meet the conditions to pop. Attestation mobs require that an Eye be killed up by Nue's tower, then aggroing the attestation NM results in several hydra to spawn, and lastly you have a 1/3 chance of even getting the attestation you need. Then there is the Fragment nm which requires you to kill 15 NM to make them "real" and when pulled spawn additional mobs and lets not forget the fact you have to kill it before it gets bored or it warps out and you can't pull it again until the next run you do. If you can't get funded, or even if you do, you then need to gain all of the currency up to that point. Max collection per run I've seen is around 600 on average, 800 peak, and as low as 300 and that translates to 3, 6, or 8 pieces per run. Incredibly lucky runs every time you still have to do at least 13 runs to get the final stage done, 7 for forth, and another 15 for first 3 stages. This relies on spamming the specific zones also since Jeuno, Northlands, and Dream lands drop mixtures of the 3 currency type. Each run takes on average 2 1/2 - 3 hours so using the low end that is 87 1/2 hours at the very least and requires luck on 100 drops with full clears. This is then restricted by the fact you can't turn around and re-enter right away like you can in abyssea. Even after the mentioned changes this is a min. of 35-40 days back to back. Then, after you get it to finished lvl 75 product you have to do several trials to get it up to level 90, which may take up to another 4-7 days to finish. Bare min you are looking at nearly a month in a half if incredibly lucky with currency drops (which in my experience is very very rare to get over 500 per run). All this...for one person with little to no incentive to keep people there until the end.

Emp weapon nm? First 6 trials will take you about 21~30 hours worth of your time to complete (yes, 21-30 hours is all it took me since I /rng'd and killed PH. Longest respawn was 3 hours, typical was 1 hour). The VNM trials you can get done in another 20 hours (since vnm have multiple areas to spawn in and respawn in an hour). Up to this point you can have a full alliance worth of people holding the lvl 75 product. 1/3 to 3/3 KI or lesser pop items for the single KI you need to spawn them can be gotten out of Gold pyxis, or the NM's respawn every 10~15min to get the KI this way. The NM's themselves only require a max of 3-4 people to kill, and you have a 100% chance of getting at least 1 drop with the possibility of 2. Respawn of the ??? is only a few min, and you can stay in abyssea indefinitely so long as you build time. Alternatively you can turn around and re-enter abyssea to add more time or end up with only a 1 hour cool down before you can re-enter. Takes less than 2 days to get 75-85 with 8 people constantly rotating to get pop sets, about a week max for a group of 3-4 constantly rotating. Meanwhile these people are getting +2 items for Emp Armor as an incentive to keep helping.

Yeah....relic is not easier nor near as rewarding to do just for one person to gain something just to be made a great DoT weapon "on paper" which is then ruined by Emp weapons ODD's much higher process rate compare to the 2.5-3x dmg and additional effect process rate of relics. If you can't look at the facts and see where the relic weapon holders are coming from when doing a compare/contrast or only try to say "Well relic can be done just as fast if X amount of people do something completely unrealistic for one person." Then you must be living in some idealistic world where people actually want only one person to reap the rewards of a group. That isn't even remotely logical reasoning considering the type of people you deal with on an MMO. People are far more willing to help a person reach a goal if there is mutual gain for effort put forth. Even real life revolves around this simple concept. You go to work to further someone else far above you on the economical chain, but you do so for monetary compensation. No one goes to work for nothing and I don't expect an entire LS to do the same without giving them something in return.

Leaving relics the way they are now isn't just an insult to the person who owns the weapon, but to the people who put forth the effort for that person to weild it also. It is a mutual shame felt all around considering the time and effort it takes compared to a weapon an entire LS can work on, gain more from, and receive an impressive DD boost out of in less than a week worth of time.

[Auredant]

I find it incredibly amusing you state this knowing full well that there is probably, at best, only a small handful of LS willing to pool resources like that into finishing one relic weapon in 2 weeks. Not to mention that you think there is enough currency in circulation for that to be plausible. Especially when there isn't much of anything to gain for the rest of the LS out of it, no benefit what so ever.

Doing Emp weapons, you get the benefit of gaining +2 items for legs, body, head, etc for 85+ trials. This benefits not only the person getting the drops for the weapon but others helping the person get the weapon done.

Additionally, none of these nm's require anywhere near the effort to kill let alone meet the conditions to pop. Attestation mobs require that an Eye be killed up by Nue's tower, then aggroing the attestation NM results in several hydra to spawn, and lastly you have a 1/3 chance of even getting the attestation you need. Then there is the Fragment nm which requires you to kill 15 NM to make them "real" and when pulled spawn additional mobs and lets not forget the fact you have to kill it before it gets bored or it warps out and you can't pull it again until the next run you do. If you can't get funded, or even if you do, you then need to gain all of the currency up to that point. Max collection per run I've seen is around 600 on average, 800 peak, and as low as 300 and that translates to 3, 6, or 8 pieces per run. Incredibly lucky runs every time you still have to do at least 13 runs to get the final stage done, 7 for forth, and another 15 for first 3 stages. This relies on spamming the specific zones also since Jeuno, Northlands, and Dream lands drop mixtures of the 3 currency type. Each run takes on average 2 1/2 - 3 hours so using the low end that is 87 1/2 hours at the very least and requires luck on 100 drops with full clears. This is then restricted by the fact you can't turn around and re-enter right away like you can in abyssea. Even after the mentioned changes this is a min. of 35-40 days back to back. Then, after you get it to finished lvl 75 product you have to do several trials to get it up to level 90, which may take up to another 4-7 days to finish. Bare min you are looking at nearly a month in a half if incredibly lucky with currency drops (which in my experience is very very rare to get over 500 per run). All this...for one person with little to no incentive to keep people there until the end.

Emp weapon nm? First 6 trials will take you about 21~30 hours worth of your time to complete (yes, 21-30 hours is all it took me since I /rng'd and killed PH. Longest respawn was 3 hours, typical was 1 hour). The VNM trials you can get done in another 20 hours (since vnm have multiple areas to spawn in and respawn in an hour). Up to this point you can have a full alliance worth of people holding the lvl 75 product. 1/3 to 3/3 KI or lesser pop items for the single KI you need to spawn them can be gotten out of Gold pyxis, or the NM's respawn every 10~15min to get the KI this way. The NM's themselves only require a max of 3-4 people to kill, and you have a 100% chance of getting at least 1 drop with the possibility of 2. Respawn of the ??? is only a few min, and you can stay in abyssea indefinitely so long as you build time. Alternatively you can turn around and re-enter abyssea to add more time or end up with only a 1 hour cool down before you can re-enter. Takes less than 2 days to get 75-85 with 8 people constantly rotating to get pop sets, about a week max for a group of 3-4 constantly rotating. Meanwhile these people are getting +2 items for Emp Armor as an incentive to keep helping.

Yeah....relic is not easier nor near as rewarding to do just for one person to gain something just to be made a great DoT weapon "on paper" which is then ruined by Emp weapons ODD's much higher process rate compare to the 2.5-3x dmg and additional effect process rate of relics. If you can't look at the facts and see where the relic weapon holders are coming from when doing a compare/contrast or only try to say "Well relic can be done just as fast if X amount of people do something completely unrealistic for one person." Then you must be living in some idealistic world where people actually want only one person to reap the rewards of a group. That isn't even remotely logical reasoning considering the type of people you deal with on an MMO. People are far more willing to help a person reach a goal if there is mutual gain for effort put forth. Even real life revolves around this simple concept. You go to work to further someone else far above you on the economical chain, but you do so for monetary compensation. No one goes to work for nothing and I don't expect an entire LS to do the same without giving them something in return.

Leaving relics the way they are now isn't just an insult to the person who owns the weapon, but to the people who put forth the effort for that person to weild it also. It is a mutual shame felt all around considering the time and effort it takes compared to a weapon an entire LS can work on, gain more from, and receive an impressive DD boost out of in less than a week worth of time.

It was about what's possible not likely. I know the drop rates and spawn conditions of the hydra NMs. And your exaggerating their difficulty. The fragments can be annoying but only if your ill prepared. I've already stated that I acknowledge relics are more of a time/gil investment. I also know people who have got their relics in 3 months, which, while much longer than your typical empyrean, isn't an incredible amount of time. It's just annoying to hear how easy it is to get an empyrean weapon when not everyone has the help that you apparently did. And there's nothing at all wrong with you getting that help, that's not what I'm saying. It's not available to everyone. Your talking about "optimal" conditions not typical. I've noticed alot more player apathy unless it's something that benefits them. I'm happy for you that this is not your experience. Players used to help eachother more and that feeling is waning, sad to say. On the bright side, with the fast leveling introduced by abbyssea you only need a couple friends to do them. But that means...less people holding KIs....less pops per session. And thats if the friends are working only for one. Before you even touch the Emp drop Abby NMs. It will take u a couple days minimum. And thats if you practically live on the game. Then if you have an alli holding KIs for you it can be done in a couple settings per zone. or 1 setting if you farm time before hand, but that again, takes more time. then same thing for the next stage. same for the next stage. 3rd stage usually takes a lil more prep and time but not a terrible amount. Under IDEAL circumstances.
My ONLY point is how long would it have taken you without the help? And i'm not talkin bout the nms...the extra people are there mainly to hold KI...but lets say u were doing it with a friend and u guys duo Ki and bosses. How long would it have taken you then?
In short if you say the can be done in 3 days to a week in ideal conditions and with alot of help I'd have no problem with that. And thats for the easier trials. I just chuckle when ppl pooh pooh something and call it easy when they had a ton of help. Duo ur emp to 85 in a week start to finish. Then ur comment wont be misleading or an exaggeration.

[Alderin]

Ok so I am guilty of not reading through this thread before posting however -

For once, regarding this topic - can we please keep disagreements to a minimum. There are plenty of threads already arguing the issue of Empyrean vs. Mythic vs. Relic, and the flames, trolls and disagreements can stay in those threads.

My assumption for the OP was to simply compile a list of threads that are currently requesting this change or "boost" into one, so the Dev team can make up their own mind about what they would like to do about it.

The simple fact is for the relic & mythic holders - (stolen from some one other's post in a different thread here:) Time Spent does not equal reward on this one. Or in fact even come close to it with the release of Empyrean weapons.

*In my opinion* at the very least Empyrean, Mythic, Relic should all be equal (at the very least) however have different enhancements / aftermath effects, with perhaps a slight offset in damage to balance them out.

I repeat, lets try and keep flaming/trolling to a minimum on this one. (No, I am not a moderator, but sick of reading the same people repeat the same arguments).

Peace,

Alderin

[Alderin]

It was about what's possible not likely. I know the drop rates and spawn conditions of the hydra NMs. And your exaggerating their difficulty. The fragments can be annoying but only if your ill prepared. I've already stated that I acknowledge relics are more of a time/gil investment. I also know people who have got their relics in 3 months, which, while much longer than your typical empyrean, isn't an incredible amount of time. It's just annoying to hear how easy it is to get an empyrean weapon when not everyone has the help that you apparently did. And there's nothing at all wrong with you getting that help, that's not what I'm saying. It's not available to everyone. Your talking about "optimal" conditions not typical. I've noticed alot more player apathy unless it's something that benefits them. I'm happy for you that this is not your experience. Players used to help eachother more and that feeling is waning, sad to say. On the bright side, with the fast leveling introduced by abbyssea you only need a couple friends to do them. But that means...less people holding KIs....less pops per session. And thats if the friends are working only for one. Before you even touch the Emp drop Abby NMs. It will take u a couple days minimum. And thats if you practically live on the game. Then if you have an alli holding KIs for you it can be done in a couple settings per zone. or 1 setting if you farm time before hand, but that again, takes more time. then same thing for the next stage. same for the next stage. 3rd stage usually takes a lil more prep and time but not a terrible amount. Under IDEAL circumstances.
My ONLY point is how long would it have taken you without the help? And i'm not talkin bout the nms...the extra people are there mainly to hold KI...but lets say u were doing it with a friend and u guys duo Ki and bosses. How long would it have taken you then?
In short if you say the can be done in 3 days to a week in ideal conditions and with alot of help I'd have no problem with that. And thats for the easier trials. I just chuckle when ppl pooh pooh something and call it easy when they had a ton of help. Duo ur emp to 85 in a week start to finish. Then ur comment wont be misleading or an exaggeration.

I am currently solo'ing mine, (at least solo'ing the pops and getting a WHM to run along side me every now and again), and it probably won't take more then 1-2 weeks to finish it off to at least the 85 version (which is better then the relic lvl 90 mind you). I am not spamming them, just fitting in a pop here and there when I have time. So I can see where you are coming from - Empyreans can take longer then the stated time frame. Kitkat was simply giving an example of a possible - and common strategy in which to get them done quickly.

If I was putting the same amount of effort into a Relic as I was my Empyrean - it would take me years to get. I believe the thing that annoys relic & mythic owners (in which I can understand, even though I don't own one) is time spent does not equal reward. It used to - because it was the best weapon in the game, however it no longer is due to the level cap rise and the need for a new "elite" weapon. I mean new content - who's complaining? However I believe Relic and Mythic weapons should not be forgotten here.

Anyway you can read my arguments in the 3-4 other threads I have posted in regarding this issue. I dont feel as though the OP did not intend this thread to go into a big debate (even though it's a given that it will). So let's try and save the debates for the other threads and not make another "Empyreans pwn j00, rem0ve relic from game!!!!11one!" thread.

Relics and Mythics need a boost, Empyreans are fine as they are. End of story

/rant.

[Kiba]

Thank you Alderin. That was exactly my intention and that is why I haven't actively engaged in any arguments. We all have our own respectable opinions on this subject, however the people who will make the decision at the end will be the development team. While it would be nice if my suggestions would be implemented, I think it would just be appreciative just to have a response on what are the intended plans for the weapons to shed some light even if the current status is what was intended.

[Kitkat]

I could say more, but I won't since there really isn't more need to. I've also voiced my piece in other threads, just leaves a sour taste in my mouth when people underplay the fact there is an actual reason why people made these topics. I just hope that someone in the moderation department or and SE developer understands that pretty much everyone from all parts of the globe share the same consensus on the matter and make an effort to increase them.

[Alderin]

*bump before this post gets buried*

[Atomic_Skull]

Relics: Give the level 90 relics "Aftermath: Occasionally attacks twice" and replace the hidden 25% relic WS damage bonus with "Weaponskill damage +75%" explicitly stated on the weapon (counts toward all WS not just the relic WS)


Change aftermath on the level 90 Mythics to give all three effects at once (ATT ACC and OAT) at 100% TP with more TP granting an increased duration and replace the 15% hidden Mythic WS damage bonus with "WS damage +50%"

There, Relics and Mythics are now fixed.

[Gildrein]

We are aware that there currently exists a major difference between the strength of Empyrean weapons and that of Relic and Mythic weapons.

In regards to that balance issue, we are planning to make adjustments. We plan to create a higher level of balance by strengthening both Relic and Mythic weapons instead of simply weakening Empyrean weapons.

Along with that, we are also planning to make adjustments to both the time and cost required to create and strengthen Relic and Mythic weapons. Eventually, we would like to even out the differences in the amount of time required to create and strengthen these weapons.

[Unctgtg]

We are aware that right now, there is a major difference between Empyrean Weapons and Relic/Mythic Weapons.

Considering the current situation, we are considering about making an adjustment. We are planning to resolve this issue by strengthening both Relic and Mythic Weapons instead of weakening Empyrean Weapons.

Along with that, we are also planning to make an adjustment on both time and cost required to create and strengthen these weapons.
Eventually, we would like to even out the difference on time required to create and strengthen these weapons.

OMG u just made my morning :)

[Kiba]

We are aware that right now, there is a major difference between Empyrean Weapons and Relic/Mythic Weapons.

Considering the current situation, we are considering about making an adjustment. We are planning to resolve this issue by strengthening both Relic and Mythic Weapons instead of weakening Empyrean Weapons.

Along with that, we are also planning to make an adjustment on both time and cost required to create and strengthen these weapons.
Eventually, we would like to even out the difference on time required to create and strengthen these weapons.
Yes I have faith and believe again, thank you ^^ /bow

[sgtsagara]

Can something be done for the jobs that don't have a relic weapon like pup please?

[LeaderofAtlantis]

Can something be done for the jobs that don't have a relic weapon like pup please?

We don't have a Relic, but Kenkonken I would put as one of the best Mythic weapons. The idea of having to actually work to cause an Overload seems good to me. I think a common mistake PUPs make is they focus too much on themselves instead of the Automaton - they are, after all, the job.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Why?

Games always have worked the same, old equipment becomes null as you level, if it's the time issue, so what? You had the best weapon for 75, now it's not, simple enough.

[ShadowHeart]

give everyone relics!!! playing field even XD

[Runespider]

Games always have worked the same, old equipment becomes null as you level, if it's the time issue, so what? You had the best weapon for 75, now it's not, simple enough.

So people that have relics/mythics can have fun with them again? What does it matter, new gear and emps blew any worry for balance and things being too powerful for the game out of the water so no reason not to boost them up and let them have fun with their hard earned shinies. If they do a good job i'll honestly be amazed, I've never really been impressed with my relic which is sad given how much work it took.


give everyone relics!!! playing field even XD

They probably will, kinda. Greatly reduce the coins needed etc, I can totally see them making relics and mythics as easy to obtain as Emps. Makes more sense for them to do it too really, more people you get chasing them the better.

[Unctgtg]

Why?

Games always have worked the same, old equipment becomes null as you level, if it's the time issue, so what? You had the best weapon for 75, now it's not, simple enough.

Then explain to me why we had the hardest and LONGEST trials. One my mind numbing trails of 2000 killshots would take me longer to do then 3 emp weapons fully upgraded. And I had 5 of those.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

So people that have relics/mythics can have fun with them again? What does it matter, new gear and emps blew any worry for balance and things being too powerful for the game out of the water so no reason not to boost them up and let them have fun with their hard earned shinies. If they do a good job i'll honestly be amazed, I've never really been impressed with my relic which is sad given how much work it took.

They shouldn't feel the need to, the relics were good at 75 (rarely) it's 90 now they're not good anymore, same with salvage and Nyzul Isle gear.


Then explain to me why we had the hardest and LONGEST trials. One my mind numbing trails of 2000 killshots would take me longer to do then 3 emp weapons fully upgraded. And I had 5 of those.

Pointless trials for pointless gear.

[Runespider]

They shouldn't feel the need to, the relics were good at 75 (rarely) it's 90 now they're not good anymore, same with salvage and Nyzul Isle gear.

Well reading the post above, the devs obviously don't see it the way you do.

[Kagato]

Pointless trials for pointless gear.

Ok. You try forking over 150mil gil and/or spending 2 full years of hosting dynamis runs to have a relic weapon only to be told that there's a weapon that's stronger and easier to get now. For free.

People, if you complain about Relics getting a boost and just say relics should just be ignored and "its time to move on to something new," you never had a relic before nor did you ever attempt at getting one.

And don't respond saying you have a relic, 2 relics, 5 relics, or whatever. You don't. No relic user would ever waste that much life on an item only to say "lol it's crap now, time to move on."

[Unctgtg]

Well reading the post above, the devs obviously don't see it the way you do.

Long ago they stated relics and mythics were going to be the top teir at 99 along with emp as third. But as it stands right now, emp 3-4 days, relics 3months-2 years to get (and get blown away by emp).

But SE has spoken.

edit: haha how bad is it that I have left this browser open for nearly 4 hrs since SE posted the message lol

[Naratu]

Ok. You try forking over 150mil gil and/or spending 2 full years of hosting dynamis runs to have a relic weapon only to be told that there's a weapon that's stronger and easier to get now. For free.

People, if you complain about Relics getting a boost and just say relics should just be ignored and "its time to move on to something new," you never had a relic before nor did you ever attempt at getting one.

And don't respond saying you have a relic, 2 relics, 5 relics, or whatever. You don't. No relic user would ever waste that much life on an item only to say "lol it's crap now, time to move on."

I agree with this completely. Everyone who is trying to say that relic owners should stop Q_Qing is stupid. Most of us spent a lot of time and gil to make these, which, yes, WERE once the best (situationally), but the cost was still the same regardless. I'm glad to see that relics are getting boosted, but it's stupid to make them easier and cheaper. All of the effort we put into getting them will be shot. What do we have to say we got out of it? Now that everyone and their mother will have one, there will be no originality of this game. Everyone will look exactly the same, as they do with empyreans. I really hope at 99 there's a weapon that takes a lot of effort to obtain and is THE best weapon. Otherwise, we'll all just be a bunch of clones, only different through how we play. But seriously, all of the people that say "we had our fun with our relics being the best, now it's time to move on" should really consider how much time and gil we spent to make these. Just because you could never afford it, doesn't mean you have the right to ask SE to make it cheaper. They were expensive and hard to obtain for a reason. They were meant to be the best. Making them easier doesn't even give them the right to be called "relics" or "mythics". They'll be like all the other weapons.

[Unctgtg]

I agree with this completely. Everyone who is trying to say that relic owners should stop Q_Qing is stupid. Most of us spent a lot of time and gil to make these, which, yes, WERE once the best (situationally), but the cost was still the same regardless. I'm glad to see that relics are getting boosted, but it's stupid to make them easier and cheaper. All of the effort we put into getting them will be shot. What do we have to say we got out of it? Now that everyone and their mother will have one, there will be no originality of this game. Everyone will look exactly the same, as they do with empyreans. I really hope at 99 there's a weapon that takes a lot of effort to obtain and is THE best weapon. Otherwise, we'll all just be a bunch of clones, only different through how we play. But seriously, all of the people that say "we had our fun with our relics being the best, now it's time to move on" should really consider how much time and gil we spent to make these. Just because you could never afford it, doesn't mean you have the right to ask SE to make it cheaper. They were expensive and hard to obtain for a reason. They were meant to be the best. Making them easier doesn't even give them the right to be called "relics" or "mythics". They'll be like all the other weapons.

Combine all 3? for the ultimate weapon?

[Swazy]

I think what people fail to understand about this Relic vs. Mythic vs. Empyrean thing is not that it's 'outdated content', but that it's a combination of relic/mythics being time-consuming and expensive, vs. empyreans which are relatively neither, AND they're better. If it were one or the other (empyreans were equally, or nearly as difficult, to complete, or were on par but easier), then the issue wouldn't really exist. As it stands right now though, it's kind of.... in need of some kind of adjustment.

[Francisco]

We are aware that right now, there is a major difference between Empyrean Weapons and Relic/Mythic Weapons.

Considering the current situation, we are considering about making an adjustment. We are planning to resolve this issue by strengthening both Relic and Mythic Weapons instead of weakening Empyrean Weapons.

Along with that, we are also planning to make an adjustment on both time and cost required to create and strengthen these weapons.
Eventually, we would like to even out the difference on time required to create and strengthen these weapons.

While certain empyreans outdamage certain relics, keep in mind certain relics outclass certain empyreans.

Also, in the case of the H2H weapons, while Verethragna outdamages Spharai, keep in mind Spharai_90 has over +10 counter on it... which is pretty huge.

Considering MNKs are typically capped on Subtle Blow (20 from traits, 5 from Rajas, 10 from Tantra Head +2, 5 from Black Belt, 10 from Auspice) - I would change the Aftermath of Final Heaven to be a strong Penance effect rather than a Subtle Blow effect. That way it boosts the entire party and isn't wasted.

And because Final Heaven sucks, I'd let it proc on any WS.

Other than that - I'd leave it alone. The DMG and Attack on it are already far superior to any other H2H weapon and just boosting it to DMG: 55 Attack+50 @ 90 would imbalance things in the grand scheme of the game.

Spharai provides amazing damage and excellent defense. Verethragna provides superior damage and no defense. That's the balance.

[Didgist]

I made Maat's cap because I enjoyed playing the game and being an asset to the community in any way possible. Relics don't save linkshells or make the game more enjoyable by themselves. It is the enjoyed time invested in making them, overcoming obstacles and innovating in ways that define you in the community. You didn't make your relic, the 18-40 people you had coming to dynamis to support your relics manifest destiny did. The dev team has recognized this and most of the community will ignore the small percentage of relic holders who do not understand that their relic was nothing more than a glory piece. Empyreans provide awesome rewards to everyone involved in the process of making them as well as making them more accessible to skilled players who aren't truly haijin. (Not me, I live in FFXI and only leave to sleep.)

Also Gjally and Aegis were the only real game breakers and most low man elite groups required both for big game, Yoichi maybe because of the enmity but the fact still stands they are glory pieces and only help one person think they are way too important. Someone dig up the video of the full errant RDM solo'ing Faust. That's what made Final Fantasy good, the levels of success you can reach based on skill and teamwork alone.

edit: Awesome typo.

[Sama]

Nothing is outdated; if it does, this whole game is outdated and pointless.

[Francisco]

Nothing is outdated; if it does, this whole game is outdated and pointless.

90% of the gear in this game is outdated and/or useless.

[Rambus]

We are aware that right now, there is a major difference between Empyrean Weapons and Relic/Mythic Weapons.

Considering the current situation, we are considering about making an adjustment. We are planning to resolve this issue by strengthening both Relic and Mythic Weapons instead of weakening Empyrean Weapons.

Along with that, we are also planning to make an adjustment on both time and cost required to create and strengthen these weapons.
Eventually, we would like to even out the difference on time required to create and strengthen these weapons.

thank you XD

[Unctgtg]

ya Rambus when I saw that this morning at work I screamed out wooohoooo :)

[Rambus]

Combine all 3? for the ultimate weapon?

I would really like this idea spite the fact it wouold be impossable to implent. some jobs are emp only for some weapons, some relic only, some are mythic only, some are relic and mythic, some are mythic and emp. some are emp, mythic and relic, some have relic mythic and emp but different types of weapon ( brd dagger, brd wind, brd string)

[Swazy]

I think having the relics/mythic trials branching out to different degrees of difficulty and thus different degrees of reward at 95/99 would be a nice touch. Give the opportunity for them to 'earn' to be on top again, and also give an easy way out for a 'still very good weapon on par with 95/99 empyreans' option for those who so desire.

..just nothing like more dynamis currency/alexandrite though, please.

[Rambus]

I think having the relics/mythic trials branching out to different degrees of difficulty and thus different degrees of reward at 95/99 would be a nice touch. Give the opportunity for them to 'earn' to be on top again, and also give an easy way out for a 'still very good weapon on par with 95/99 empyreans' option for those who so desire.

..just nothing like more dynamis currency/alexandrite though, please.

they are fine as long as the amount is reasonable.

i would say alex needs to be something like 5k-10k IF SE makes that content appeal to others worth doing at 90/99, same with dyna.

I would really like SE to change all the 75 events so they are hard and worthwhile to 99 otherwise why have them?

with lolps2 limitations ether update them or delete them.

I would like to have content that can appeal to people with more time like relics and mythics, so i hope the changes to make them "easier" is not too much, or have other things to appeal to more time players ( like different magain routes for relic and mythic). that would split at 90

[Tim]

I feel that the relics and mythics should be the most powerful. I dont have a relic but I am stage 3 on the one I have been working on for years now. I fully understand how much time it takes to get one and respect anybody who gets one just for the dedication they have. I want to finish mine but unfortunately because of abyssea it is very hard to find a dyna shell (much less a dyna shell that will let me sponsor). as far as outdated gear, SE has already announced that gear from events like Limbus, Salvage, Eijherier, and Nyzule will now be magian trial upgradable which will make them not as outdated as people say they are.

[Naratu]

I made Maat's cap because I enjoyed playing the game and being an asset to the community in any way possible. Relics don't save linkshells or make the game more enjoyable by themselves. It is the enjoyed time invested in making them, overcoming obstacles and innovating in ways that define you in the community. You didn't make your relic, the 18-40 people you had coming to dynamis to support your relics manifest destiny did. The dev team has recognized this and most of the community will ignore the small percentage of relic holders who do not understand that their relic was nothing more than a glory piece. Empyreans provide awesome rewards to everyone involved in the process of making them as well as making them more accessible to skilled players who aren't truly haijin. (Not me, I live in FFXI and only leave to sleep.)

Also Gjally and Aegis were the only real game breakers and most low man elite groups required both for big game, Yoichi maybe because of the enmity but the fact still stands they are glory pieces and only help one person think they are way too important. Someone dig up the video of the full errant RDM solo'ing Faust. That's what made Final Fantasy good, the levels of success you can reach based on skill and teamwork alone.

edit: Awesome typo.

You seriously make my head hurt. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Maat's cap is not an asset to the community. Not everyone had a dynamis LS or endgame LS make their relic for them, idiot. Not exactly sure how empyreans offer rewards to everyone involved. I don't know about you, but most people don't get super pumped over some carabosse subligar, a brisk mask, or anything of that sort. If you're referring to af3+2, that's hardly a decent reward seeing as how if you aren't completely retarded, you can easily get 5/5 af3+2 by duoing everything. Gjallarhorn, Aegis, nor Yoichi were ever game breaking. They just simplified things a bit more then they already were. No common HNM in the game required you to have any of these 3 (Not talking AV). Also, didn't know soloing Faust showed great teamwork. Awesome to know.

If you're trolling, ignore this. If you're serious, you should just leave now.

[Rambus]

We are aware that there currently exists a major difference between the strength of Empyrean weapons and that of Relic and Mythic weapons.

In regards to that balance issue, we are planning to make adjustments. We plan to create a higher level of balance by strengthening both Relic and Mythic weapons instead of simply weakening Empyrean weapons.

Along with that, we are also planning to make adjustments to both the time and cost required to create and strengthen Relic and Mythic weapons. Eventually, we would like to even out the differences in the amount of time required to create and strengthen these weapons.

Thinking about this post I have a few questions.

What are you exactly reporting and what is the dev team talking about with the various issues on relics and mythics?

Will there be a relic type weapon for BLU,SCH,PUP, COR, and DNC?

Are there talks about how some job roles have no mythic or relic or even an emp status weapon?

a RDM using a sword is just a convert macro.
A SCH mythic is so bad that common weapons like elemental HQ staffs are better then it in some situations ( potency atma in abyssea HQ staff > SCH mythic)
BLM mythic is in the same water as SCH mythic cept the fact on elemental seal nuke will outdo any weapon. The issue with this is a mythic for a 10 min job ability? was that the intent? like where rdm mythic sits?

Is there talk about different arguments for weapons? The argument for blu sword, nin mythic are really bad.

for NIN it could at lest argument yonin and Innin.
for blu it could upgrade chain affinity and bust affinity. ( should blu mythic be the best for magic spells and phy spells? if that is the plan the sword need higher potency and acc then HQ elemental staffs or duel weild magic type swords.

relic staff has no worth to casters.
the bst axe has little worth ( i think mythic is best for bst and emp for DD?) regardless it seems the bst axe does not do enough when you look at BST mythic.

Was I correct in saying the intent of emp weapons was to bridge the have and have nots to relic, but not meant to out-do them? in other words, was some of the emp weapons doing so well in abyssea a mistake? some emp weapons do need padding, just the crt hit emp ws are obnoxious ones, and gun even though it is magic type, gogo god mode atmas?

[Fetus]

I wish people would stop saying that they "read somewhere" that SE ever claimed that "relics and mythics were meant to be the number one and two weapons with empy weapons being third".

They've never explicitly said this nor implied it. Ever. Go ahead and search through years of update notes, fest reviews or whatever else you can find. It's never been said. You people who think that they've seen this or read this somewhere are fantasizing something awful.

However, I'm not proclaiming that Empyrean weapons were intended to ever be vastly superior to Relic weapons as they currently are for the most part. I'm also not convinced that the Development Team intended for that to happen, either. It did, though, and they're apparently going to fix this issue to bring them more into balance with each other. Fantastic. Now everybody can stop complaining.

Regarding Mythics being superior damage-dealing weapons... no. I'm not sure where anyone got that from. It just seems like everybody saw how much work it took to get them and made baseless assumptions that they were going to be the "number two" weapon of choice, second only to Relics, but only because Relics cost more. That banter is so shallow and facetious that it underminds human reasoning.

Mythics were clearly designed to enhance jobs by augmenting job abilities or over-all characteristics that define the job. Like... Yagrush. How does Yagrush need any improvment whatsoever? Are you seriously going to complain that your Mystic Boon damage isn't that great? Are you really going to complain that you're not getting all three aftermath effects when you use Mystic Boon at 300% TP? Who fkn cares about your Mystic Boon damage or your aftermath effects. That's not why you get a Yagrush. You get a Yagrush for the enhancements it offers.

I would say "the story is the same for the rest of the Mythics, too" but I'd be wrong. There are some Mythics that were just poorly designed. Nagi and Tupsimati being two of them. They're just atrociously crappy for no apparent reason.

The only thing I agree with regarding Mythics is the text telling you about the aftermath effects on the weapons themselves were/are misleading. That's it.

[DrStrangelove]

While certain empyreans outdamage certain relics, keep in mind certain relics outclass certain empyreans.

Also, in the case of the H2H weapons, while Verethragna outdamages Spharai, keep in mind Spharai_90 has over +10 counter on it... which is pretty huge.

Considering MNKs are typically capped on Subtle Blow (20 from traits, 5 from Rajas, 10 from Tantra Head +2, 5 from Black Belt, 10 from Auspice) - I would change the Aftermath of Final Heaven to be a strong Penance effect rather than a Subtle Blow effect. That way it boosts the entire party and isn't wasted.

And because Final Heaven sucks, I'd let it proc on any WS.

Other than that - I'd leave it alone. The DMG and Attack on it are already far superior to any other H2H weapon and just boosting it to DMG: 55 Attack+50 @ 90 would imbalance things in the grand scheme of the game.

Spharai provides amazing damage and excellent defense. Verethragna provides superior damage and no defense. That's the balance.

- no one spent 6 months and 150M gil to get +10 counter
- +counter has no value unless you are tanking
- outside abyssea, verethragna does 12% more damage, inside it does 33% more
- +55 attack and +50 damage will correct some of the imbalance outside of abyssea but does almost zip to it in abyssea
- ++counter (if it were to be +30 on Spharai not +10 or +15) might start to get interesting IF counterstance (for Spharai users only) was able to counter weapon skills OR was not given a huge hit to defense. At that point then Spharai might indeed be a strong defensive weapon with less offense while Verethragna was a stronger offensive weapon. As is now, comparing these 2 weapons, you're trading as much as +33% damage for a possible 5% mitigation.

And I'm not sure what other relics you think are as good or better than a relic, but most don't keep up at all. The ones I know (GAX-GKT-katana-gun-bow-dagger-apoc) for sure don't.

[Flunklesnarkin]

No matter which weapon they make the best... there will be people angry..

and for good reason for any of the relics / mythic / empyrean.. everybody feels they put in the most effort.

I would suggest making relics / mythic / empyrean all top tier weapons of close DD capability..

however release a new ultimate weapon for people to strive for...

that way when one of the old weapon types .. relic / mythic / empyrean is better than another of the old type of weapons... people won't really have much to complain about..

because there will be a better weapon to epeen about....

all the old weapons losing too a more difficult and challenging to obtain weapon is the best choice imo ^^

[Venat]

Good news to the mythic weapons ^^

Hopefully the quest gets adjustments because it is a pain in the butt mainly requiring to do so many events.

[Runespider]

I hope they fix Apoc by boosting the WS dmg firstly and then the aftermath haste effect being either magic haste, a totally different type of haste that stacks with all others or the only item that can break the 25%(26) gear haste cap.

Since Square don't know how to fix tanking classes that would probably make relic drk one of the better tanks again too.

[Coldbrand]

We are aware that there currently exists a major difference between the strength of Empyrean weapons and that of Relic and Mythic weapons.

In regards to that balance issue, we are planning to make adjustments. We plan to create a higher level of balance by strengthening both Relic and Mythic weapons instead of simply weakening Empyrean weapons.

Along with that, we are also planning to make adjustments to both the time and cost required to create and strengthen Relic and Mythic weapons. Eventually, we would like to even out the differences in the amount of time required to create and strengthen these weapons.

Dragon Whisker here I come!

[Atomic_Skull]

We are aware that there currently exists a major difference between the strength of Empyrean weapons and that of Relic and Mythic weapons.

In regards to that balance issue, we are planning to make adjustments. We plan to create a higher level of balance by strengthening both Relic and Mythic weapons instead of simply weakening Empyrean weapons.

Along with that, we are also planning to make adjustments to both the time and cost required to create and strengthen Relic and Mythic weapons. Eventually, we would like to even out the differences in the amount of time required to create and strengthen these weapons.

I hope that means balancing the time and cost to upgrade Relics and Mythics and not "Making relics and mythics as easy to upgrade as empyreans" Because to relic holders that would be just as bad as having Relics and Mythics outclassed by them.

[Runespider]

I hope that means balancing the time and cost to upgrade Relics and Mythics and not "Making relics and mythics as easy to upgrade as empyreans" Because to relic holders that would be just as bad as having Relics and Mythics outclassed by them.

I would rather have relics be as easy as emps to get and be good than very rare and junk, I don't care anymore if everyone has a relic/mythic/emp I just want something I spent years on to be good and useful.

[Seriha]

I hope that means balancing the time and cost to upgrade Relics and Mythics and not "Making relics and mythics as easy to upgrade as empyreans" Because to relic holders that would be just as bad as having Relics and Mythics outclassed by them.

I would hope they went into it knowing it was an arduous task, one that involved the (in)direct work of many others. However, I would also hope they understand the concept of an MMO and how they're meant to grow and evolve. How one went about obtaining a Relic and Mythic was, put simply, masochistic. Especially relative to the title of being ultimate weapons and what they wound up doing.

Maybe SE could be nice and allow current holders a one-time trade-in for some bonus currency to use however they wish as an apology, but as with any MMO, striving to get it earlier risks it being easier later. As long as you put it to good use, be happy. You've still got it, and on some level, they'll soon be better.

[Didgist]

You seriously make my head hurt. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Maat's cap is not an asset to the community. Not everyone had a dynamis LS or endgame LS make their relic for them, idiot. Not exactly sure how empyreans offer rewards to everyone involved. I don't know about you, but most people don't get super pumped over some carabosse subligar, a brisk mask, or anything of that sort. If you're referring to af3+2, that's hardly a decent reward seeing as how if you aren't completely retarded, you can easily get 5/5 af3+2 by duoing everything. Gjallarhorn, Aegis, nor Yoichi were ever game breaking. They just simplified things a bit more then they already were. No common HNM in the game required you to have any of these 3 (Not talking AV). Also, didn't know soloing Faust showed great teamwork. Awesome to know.

If you're trolling, ignore this. If you're serious, you should just leave now.


I finished Maat's Cap 2 weeks before level sync was implemented.
If spending over 2 years creating parties,
learning every single camp in the game,
figuring out how to balance jobs and find people within the same level range,
learning two languages to help players communicate during parties,
taking players to uncrowded to camps to reduce disputes during peak hours,
and learning how to be a proactive member on any job wasn't helpful than dragging people to dynamis or 10 boxing it isn't either.

EDIT: Also solo'ing Faust in crap without tier 2 merits required skill, and being able to 6 man or lower jorm with our without aegis/gjally combo required teamwork. People complaining about older content being outdated and have no concept of what old content was good for.

[Didgist]

I wish people would stop saying that they "read somewhere" that SE ever claimed that "relics and mythics were meant to be the number one and two weapons with empy weapons being third".

They've never explicitly said this nor implied it. Ever. Go ahead and search through years of update notes, fest reviews or whatever else you can find. It's never been said. You people who think that they've seen this or read this somewhere are fantasizing something awful.

However, I'm not proclaiming that Empyrean weapons were intended to ever be vastly superior to Relic weapons as they currently are for the most part. I'm also not convinced that the Development Team intended for that to happen, either. It did, though, and they're apparently going to fix this issue to bring them more into balance with each other. Fantastic. Now everybody can stop complaining.

Regarding Mythics being superior damage-dealing weapons... no. I'm not sure where anyone got that from. It just seems like everybody saw how much work it took to get them and made baseless assumptions that they were going to be the "number two" weapon of choice, second only to Relics, but only because Relics cost more. That banter is so shallow and facetious that it underminds human reasoning.

Mythics were clearly designed to enhance jobs by augmenting job abilities or over-all characteristics that define the job. Like... Yagrush. How does Yagrush need any improvment whatsoever? Are you seriously going to complain that your Mystic Boon damage isn't that great? Are you really going to complain that you're not getting all three aftermath effects when you use Mystic Boon at 300% TP? Who fkn cares about your Mystic Boon damage or your aftermath effects. That's not why you get a Yagrush. You get a Yagrush for the enhancements it offers.

I would say "the story is the same for the rest of the Mythics, too" but I'd be wrong. There are some Mythics that were just poorly designed. Nagi and Tupsimati being two of them. They're just atrociously crappy for no apparent reason.

The only thing I agree with regarding Mythics is the text telling you about the aftermath effects on the weapons themselves were/are misleading. That's it.

Exactly. Relic holders are complaining because they believe making a relic is the hardest thing in the game. Many people have endured much more dubious tasks to reap useless rewards because they wanted the player experience and not a big dick to swing and make them an authority or popular person on BG/FFXIAH or some other retarded site. People used to finish relics and run to KI to proclaim their awesomeness. It's really just funny to me and i'm dissapointed the Devs are catering to this. I really enjoy embrassing relic holders while wearing perle hands.

[Didgist]

Also you could farm 200M gil in 4-6 months being lazy and just killing Notorius Monsters. This required nothing more than the same team currently used in Abyssea. If it took you 2 years to make a Relic, Linkshell or not, you have no place complaining. Some linkshells used to take out big game and could earn enough money to buy a relic outright within a month.

Relics are not difficult at all and spending that much time on them was just a result of the top tier of the community being worthless by themselves and not realizing the potential of a small amount of characters. Shout groups and linkshells should have sold coins and sold kills on Att/Fragment, and players inspired enough to farm the gil should have bought them.

I'm seriously sorry for you if you can't farm enough gil to buy a relic yourself.

[Shoko]

I finished Maat's Cap 2 weeks before level sync was implemented.
If spending over 2 years creating parties,
learning every single camp in the game,
figuring out how to balance jobs and find people within the same level range,
learning two languages to help players communicate during parties,
taking players to uncrowded to camps to reduce disputes during peak hours,
and learning how to be a proactive member on any job wasn't helpful than dragging people to dynamis or 10 boxing it isn't either.

EDIT: Also solo'ing Faust in crap without tier 2 merits required skill, and being able to 6 man or lower jorm with our without aegis/gjally combo required teamwork. People complaining about older content being outdated and have no concept of what old content was good for.

* Congratulations, you got a Maat's Cap before level sync. That's no bigger an achievement than people that obtained Thief's Knife before they changed the NM conditions or any one that leveled a job to 75 before they chopped off 200,000 experience points. Anyone (with less time and determination) can obtain a Maat's Cap now, stop holding onto such an old achievement as if it means anything. Maybe they'll add another Maat item for having all 99 jobs (which is still an achievement).

* You're not the only one that has spent time making his/her own parties, some have spent 2 years (if not more) doing the same, going through the same trials and tribulations of finding people of same average levels and balance to exp... we all are playing the same game after all, and the player base has not been over saturated with new players to show otherwise.

* Learning a new language is pretty cool. I myself have learned a bit of Japanese as well to better communicate. I'm sure other players have as well.

* Learning jobs never has really been a problem at all. This includes jobs with higher JA/spell/gear maintenance such as SCH, BLU, or NIN.

* Aegis was never a game-breaking piece of armor to have. It only made the PLD (and WHM or RDM curing role) role much, much more smoother. On any NM of superior difficulty, Utsusemi had a lot to do with success.

* G-Horn can be seen as borderline game-breaking at it's prime, I can agree to this.

It sounds like you just want to live off of old achievements and challenges. However, you forget that as with any other MMO, the game evolves, and those challenges become no more a challenge. If you want to hope for something, hope that these easy changes and fixes to old weapons will lead to possible extreme difficult fights in the future in which these weapons will be needed.

[Didgist]

*stop holding onto such an old achievement as if it means anything. Maybe they'll add another Maat item for having all 99 jobs (which is still an achievement).

You miss understand. I had a lot of friends I wanted to help level up, and a lot of players who I just enjoyed helping because I liked their playstyle. The Cap is nothing, just like your relics are nothing. Crying to the Dev team and suggesting that Relics should be the end all is exactly what you are describing.

Me? I've tried to desynth the damn thing more times than I can count. I treat it like the new mentor status, anyone wearing it I immediately assume is an idiot that has no idea what they are doing and will only spout misinformation.


EDIT: Also I have 90 Ukon, a 85 Masamune with 32 days of playtime, and a 85 Masamune with 17 days of playtime that is skilled and has already tanked most of t1-t2 abyssea.

[Shoko]

Also you could farm 200M gil in 4-6 months being lazy and just killing Notorius Monsters. This required nothing more than the same team currently used in Abyssea. If it took you 2 years to make a Relic, Linkshell or not, you have no place complaining. Some linkshells used to take out big game and could earn enough money to buy a relic outright within a month.

Relics are not difficult at all and spending that much time on them was just a result of the top tier of the community being worthless by themselves and not realizing the potential of a small amount of characters. Shout groups and linkshells should have sold coins and sold kills on Att/Fragment, and players inspired enough to farm the gil should have bought them.

I'm seriously sorry for you if you can't farm enough gil to buy a relic yourself.

You also sound like a person with a lot time on his hands than the "average player". The average player will never see over 20~30 million gil without extending his/her play time in some manner, buying gil or cheating or a combination of the 3. However, some are willing to make the effort without doing the latter two options; there should be no reason why SE shouldn't alleviate some of the cost/requirements of Relic/Mythic when:

A) No one does Dynamis/Salvage anymore because Empyrean outright outclass Relic/Mythic.

or

B) No one can justify farming gil for a Relic/Mythic because of A).

Relics are easy to make indeed, but it's a huge waste of time at the moment. Mythics are just a grand waste of time overall (and I should know, I stopped midway on finishing mine because of the alexandrite cost vs just finishing an Almace, which I did).

[Didgist]

You also sound like a person with a lot time on his hands than the "average player". The average player will never see over 20~30 million gil without extending his/her play time in some manner, buying gil or cheating or a combination of the 3. However, some are willing to make the effort without doing the latter two options; there should be no reason why SE shouldn't alleviate some of the cost/requirements of Relic/Mythic when:

A) No one does Dynamis/Salvage anymore because Empyrean outright outclass Relic/Mythic.

or

B) No one can justify farming gil for a Relic/Mythic because of A).

Relics are easy to make indeed, but it's a huge waste of time at the moment. Mythics are just a grand waste of time overall (and I should know, I stopped midway on finishing mine because of the alexandrite cost vs just finishing an Almace, which I did).

I agree completely with mythics.

ToAU has been abandoned and the variety of content you need to complete, while easy due to being level 90-99, is still a very large workload. Barring Yagrush or Andervlyneanchan whatevers 12 Ryunohiges it's not worth it.

However, it has never been difficult to farm gil in this game. A player with average gear could make 1 mil in 3-4 hours of playtime, give or take. Who doesn't have 3-6 x60 hours to invest that actually plays this game at endgame level?

The majority of whatever excessive playtime I must posses was used to help people exp because I simply enjoy a good party that works well and overcomes challenges. This is the point I was trying to make. I enjoyed exp'ing and made a lot of effort to be good at it, and I have a crappy piece that used to be 1% better in situations that I didn't even know or care about to show for it. Anything earned in this game that people actually enjoyed contributing to should have this attitude towards it.

Personally I love seeing pieces with 8 INT like Tungas hat, or pieces like Twilight helm that absolutely destroy Maat's Cap. It makes me laugh thinking about all the drama, stress, and bannings that happened in Korolokka because of poor idiots who (case in point) thought they should get it because it was 1% better.

EDIT: I forgot Kenkonken. What it does for PUP is comparable to an Amano that does 18k Kaitens under a 10 level penalty.

[Shoko]

I agree completely with mythics.

ToAU has been abandoned and the variety of content you need to complete, while easy due to being level 90-99, is still a very large workload. Barring Yagrush or Andervlyneanchan whatevers 12 Ryunohiges it's not worth it.

However, it has never been difficult to farm gil in this game. A player with average gear could make 1 mil in 3-4 hours of playtime, give or take. Who doesn't have 3-6 x60 hours to invest that actually plays this game at endgame level?

The majority of whatever excessive playtime I must posses was used to help people exp because I simply enjoy a good party that works well and overcomes challenges. This is the point I was trying to make. I enjoyed exp'ing and made a lot of effort to be good at it, and I have a crappy piece that used to be 1% better in situations that I didn't even know or care about to show for it. Anything earned in this game that people actually enjoyed contributing to should have this attitude towards it.

Personally I love seeing pieces with 8 INT like Tungas hat, or pieces like Twilight helm that absolutely destroy Maat's Cap. It makes me laugh thinking about all the drama, stress, and bannings that happened in Korolokka because of poor idiots who (case in point) thought they should get it because it was 1% better.

EDIT: I forgot Kenkonken. What it does for PUP is comparable to an Amano that does 18k Kaitens under a 10 level penalty.

I finally see where you're getting at now. Personally, I've never had a problem making gil because I always played my Alchemy and Leathercrafting up when it was beneficial to make gil after updates (then days where having an Ebisu was an amazing money maker). However, that can't be said for all others, esp those without LSes or non-social people that prefer to make gil on their own, but unable to find an effective gil maker for their time put in.

Look again as well; you find it hilarious that there is gear now that outclasses Maat's Cap in various ways, but what about early 2009?

I personally never would have thought the level cap would be raised past 75, much less even 80 or 85. Now everyone is rolling in multiple lvl 90 jobs, some with [multiple] emp weapons and everything is easy and cake (for the most part, for higher end players) Makes playing with the idea in mind that they have something big in store for making this portion of endgame just a bit easier, rather than worry about relics/mythics being easier to obtain. Actually if you think about it, as the level cap rises, you won't see many people with the higher level versions of the relic/mythic/emp weapon anyways, despite having the level 75/80/85 version (example, obtaining a level 90 weapon in a small task to overcome in itself, and many have simply stopped at the 85 version for the time being). I'm sure SE will make obtaining lvl 95~99 in your weapon(s) of choice a nice difficulty.

[Didgist]

I finally see where you're getting at now. Personally, I've never had a problem making gil because I always played my Alchemy and Leathercrafting up when it was beneficial to make gil after updates (then days where having an Ebisu was an amazing money maker). However, that can't be said for all others, esp those without LSes or non-social people that prefer to make gil on their own, but unable to find an effective gil maker for their time put in.

Look again as well; you find it hilarious that there is gear now that outclasses Maat's Cap in various ways, but what about early 2009?

I personally never would have thought the level cap would be raised past 75, much less even 80 or 85. Now everyone is rolling in multiple lvl 90 jobs, some with [multiple] emp weapons and everything is easy and cake (for the most part, for higher end players) Makes playing with the idea in mind that they have something big in store for making this portion of endgame just a bit easier, rather than worry about relics/mythics being easier to obtain. Actually if you think about it, as the level cap rises, you won't see many people with the higher level versions of the relic/mythic/emp weapon anyways, despite having the level 75/80/85 version (example, obtaining a level 90 weapon in a small task to overcome in itself, and many have simply stopped at the 85 version for the time being). I'm sure SE will make obtaining lvl 95~99 in your weapon(s) of choice a nice difficulty.


Yes, a million times what you first said. You found a niche, and instead of finding one that was an exploit (sup salvage bans) you found one that had a proactive impact on your character and the community itself. You inscreased the skill of your character and created things for people to buy, sell, and use for their own advancement.

One of the oldest and most endearing stories in Vana'diel lore is the story of the Tasaijin.

I will give you the short version. Someone discovers the first Refresh scroll by completing a newly implemented BC40
FAR before his peers. When people see him or try to buy the scroll from him, he tells them "I found it on a Taisai". People all across the game flood Ranguemont and fight bitterly for hours trying to claim Taisai that will never drop Refresh. This is why Taisaijin NM was added, and has a totally useless drop. That's the story anyways.

This is the whole point of new content. Real or Vana, the world changes quickly and it belongs to those who chose to suffer great losses and ridicule in the name of pioneering and discovering things for themselves. For a very short period of time this gives them a claim to fame but then are quickly outdated.

Maat's Cap was a joke before 60-75 exp was changed, and this was when Bibiki and Sky were the uber endgame content/leveling grounds and we still didn't know what Sea was or how to get enough people in to it to do anything. Relics became a joke as soon as people started buying them outright using illicit means, completely trivializing the whole process.

For years everything that was in the game, and even content being added now is trivial. My whole reason for posting originally was because players who spent way too long incorrectly obtaining a goal that is only marginally better at best do not need to be catered to and honestly represent a very small, confused, and disappointing group of players.

In 15 minutes, everybody will be famous.

[Shoko]

Hah, always love Tasaijin story, thanks for that. And it's unfortunate, but there will always be someone who will cheat for that marginal benefit, that's just human nature. You just have to learn to not worry about them, and do for you what makes you happy. I like to reminisce about those old sky days vs Aura Weapons just like you it seems. Days are no more, but we can hope for a challenging future in FFXI. :P

[Didgist]

When Bibiki became the big 60+ leveling grounds I was a 63 RDM. I vaguely remember them giving me free exp up to capping the level I was at when they changed the amount from 60-75. My friend at the time Grimace had BLM and WHM to 75 at this point, and I view that accomplishment trumps anything I have done in this game. The people who were there at the time and make the initial breakthroughs are the only people who would reserve any right to have their accomplishments protected and they gladly understood that this is not how things work. At all.

No one was there when Magni finished Gjallyhorn and took a LS that only a handful of Japanese players on Fenrir remember to kill Vrtra for the first time. You were level 10 dying to Tremor Rams. Or hadn't even played. Or started at PS2 North American release and instantly complained about how the JP aren't automatically helping you get everything you want. While most of us were having our romantic first steps into the Vana' world, others were perched at the limits waiting to tackle new content immediately.

Everything the current community had as far as progression was done, overdone, and ridiculed by the time the majority of American posters even merited one job. This isn't an American VS EU VS JP comment either. There were players who flew through content so quickly that they monopolized endgame content before there was competition. I wouldn't doubt that a good portion of them were sitting right here in the states or anywhere in the world for that matter playing Japanese copies of the game.

What about their accomplishments? They killed everything in the game without wiki, haste caps, enmity discussions, or 8 years of the insane amount of knowledge players have compiled themselves about the game. This entire thread is about how people want already exploited trivialized and long long since proven minimal improvements to their characters to trump going out and completing new content. Content that is breathing new life into the game and utilizing every aspect of battle in an intelligent and fun way while offering more ways to help every player improve their character.

What's really funny is with Dynamis patches there will be no way to say your relic is so hard to make anymore. You won't be able to whine and have an argument that everyone should pity you for not having a top tier piece and condemn the dev team for doing something right for once. We will all make relics within 2-3 months and even though they are now more powerful than empyreans, they will be a joke to get and people will bash you and tell you to stop using old accomplishments to validate you being a top tier player. Everyone will have it and you will be jealous and feel forsaken by your god, the Sqaure...Enix..Dev..I mean come on.

Thankfully I know better.

[McFlurry]

Without reading 17+ pages of the merits of relics/mythics/empyreans, this is my take. (caveat: I have none of the above for any job.)

I started playing nearly two years ago. I got my first 75 about 3 months before the first level cap increase. I read about the relic weapons and drooled massively, before finding the requirements. I don't make a lot of gil, so I thought I'd concentrate on getting all the relic gear for DRG (which I did, bar the belt). I was in a gilshare Dynamis LS, with the option of getting currency. So I looked up how much currency was on bazaars and how many I needed, and I gave up hope there and then.

I've not even looked at Mythics, but I hear they take more effort than Relics.

Just now, I'm working on Empyrean, and as I write this I'm at 6/8 on Chesma, which is the last NM harvest before I choose whether to go WoE or Chloris buds etc.

My point is that everything should be attainable to all who play the game, not just those who have hours to play, and have shells that spend their lives in Abyssea/Dynamis/whatever. If the updates allow some people to get relics easier than before, then great - I suspect SE's focus currently is to try and retain players and attract new players on a game that can't have too many years left in it. This doesn't lessen the worth of any achievements that long time players have obtained - there's pride that can't be replaced there. For my money, I did about half of CoP before the level cap was lifted for those missions, yet now I can solo the Promyvions - I don't mind in the slightest. CoP was damn hard and took a long time to get to where I did, but I know and cherish the memory that I was among those who did at least some of it when it required a lot of work.

If I get a relic from Dynamis fully upgraded, it will still be an achievement for me, even if I do achieve an Empyrean, and at the end of the day, whatever is done in game makes up your level of personal satisfaction. If you're not satisfied with what you've achieved/will achieve, what's the point in playing?

/ramble off

[Didgist]

If I get a relic from Dynamis fully upgraded, it will still be an achievement for me, even if I do achieve an Empyrean, and at the end of the day, whatever is done in game makes up your level of personal satisfaction. If you're not satisfied with what you've achieved/will achieve, what's the point in playing?

/ramble off

I agree with you and a lot of players with your mindset go unaccounted for. It's unfortunate that people who are confused are feeding the dev team misinformation about what players want. Most of us like the simple pleasures and aren't in a hurry. Everyone who wants to swing a stick is swinging a very old and used one.

People will whine and tell you that it was their right and only their right to have a _________ because they did __________ with __________ and only had __________ and _________ was ___________ cause they were in the same LS and __________ was _______ about ________ qq. It's cute.

[Tempo]

Two of my weapons are very happy with this news about time aswell :D

[DrStrangelove]

This entire thread is about how people want already exploited trivialized and long long since proven minimal improvements to their characters to trump going out and completing new content.

Nope, that's not what this thread is about. Although you'd like it to be about that since it would make it easy for you to argue.

1) relics and mythics were not obtained through exploitation. Although how AMAZING it is that you use that word when people are soloing drop mobs in abyssea to complete their empyrean.
2) relics and mythics weren't trivialized until SE chose to introduce weapons that could be obtained with 1/50th effort while doing 35%+ more damage.
3) people with relics and mythics are doing new content. Although it might work for your argument if empyrean weapons were the ONLY things added since March, 2010, let me share this with you: it wasn't. We're all getting new gear!

Let me help you with another weak point you've made in several posts. Maats cap is a great achievement (although easier than relics as evidenced that 10x as many people have it as opposed to a relic, and clearly much easier than mythics, but a grand achievement nonetheless.) However, Maats cap was obtained by leveling jobs that are still leveled. It's value to some jobs is what it was before: it's still the best in some circumstances.

The effort to obtain relics an mythics is gone. No one has their currency still to buy more weapons. No one who did 6,500 kill shots before has those given back to them as credit for other weapons. Moreover for most if not all relics they were but are no longer the best weapon.

Sorry your Maats cap example is not where near correct, so drop that one. The investment in Maats cap is still there; the value is still there. The investment of effort for relics and mythics is gone. In it's place people have a weapon that is easily outclassed by weapons people are getting in a week which devalues it further.

Now, you should realize this thread is about the loss of a tremendous amount of effort that individuals invested due to a decision to make superior content available at a fraction of the effort.

[DrStrangelove]

My point is that everything should be attainable to all who play the game, not just those who have hours to play, and have shells that spend their lives in Abyssea/Dynamis/whatever.

Really?
1) everyone should have 20 level 90's even if they are unwilling or unable to level?
2) everyone should have 50 million gil even if they don't feel like working for it?
3) everyone should have 8 million cruor and a full set of +2 gear for all their jobs even if they don't have time?

If you feel that way, shouldn't you just start a thread asking SE to create an NPC that will insta raise your jobs to 90, give you 8 mm cruor and 50 million gil and all the completed relics, mythics and empyreans you can carry?

Do you also believe people who want to be doctors should get that title without studying or practicing medicine? Do you think people who come to work late, miss deadlines and put out reports with typos and math errors should get top bonuses and promoted to president?

I don't. Almost no one does. But a lot of people who don't want to make any effort would like to open up a game, have a character just as good as everyone else with all the same gear and be able to play from time to time. They have games like that called first person shooters (FPS.) It's probably what some people should play instead of an MMO.

[Unctgtg]

Nope, that's not what this thread is about. Although you'd like it to be about that since it would make it easy for you to argue.

1) relics and mythics were not obtained through exploitation. Although how AMAZING it is that you use that word when people are soloing drop mobs in abyssea to complete their empyrean.
2) relics and mythics weren't trivialized until SE chose to introduce weapons that could be obtained with 1/50th effort while doing 35%+ more damage.
3) people with relics and mythics are doing new content. Although it might work for your argument if empyrean weapons were the ONLY things added since March, 2010, let me share this with you: it wasn't. We're all getting new gear!

Let me help you with another weak point you've made in several posts. Maats cap is a great achievement (although easier than relics as evidenced that 10x as many people have it as opposed to a relic, and clearly much easier than mythics, but a grand achievement nonetheless.) However, Maats cap was obtained by leveling jobs that are still leveled. It's value to some jobs is what it was before: it's still the best in some circumstances.

The effort to obtain relics an mythics is gone. No one has their currency still to buy more weapons. No one who did 6,500 kill shots before has those given back to them as credit for other weapons. Moreover for most if not all relics they were but are no longer the best weapon.

Sorry your Maats cap example is not where near correct, so drop that one. The investment in Maats cap is still there; the value is still there. The investment of effort for relics and mythics is gone. In it's place people have a weapon that is easily outclassed by weapons people are getting in a week which devalues it further.

Now, you should realize this thread is about the loss of a tremendous amount of effort that individuals invested due to a decision to make superior content available at a fraction of the effort.

Its actually 9500 killshots

[Rambus]

give you an idea, with new count, it took me 3 RL days ( not 3 days of consistent playing) to do first one at 75 to being done at 85, how long did your 9500 total you?

then again sam/war with a SCH alt would do it pretty fast.

just be carful not to solo sc killshot mob -.-

[McFlurry]

Really?
1) everyone should have 20 level 90's even if they are unwilling or unable to level?
2) everyone should have 50 million gil even if they don't feel like working for it?
3) everyone should have 8 million cruor and a full set of +2 gear for all their jobs even if they don't have time?

If you feel that way, shouldn't you just start a thread asking SE to create an NPC that will insta raise your jobs to 90, give you 8 mm cruor and 50 million gil and all the completed relics, mythics and empyreans you can carry?

Do you also believe people who want to be doctors should get that title without studying or practicing medicine? Do you think people who come to work late, miss deadlines and put out reports with typos and math errors should get top bonuses and promoted to president?

I don't. Almost no one does. But a lot of people who don't want to make any effort would like to open up a game, have a character just as good as everyone else with all the same gear and be able to play from time to time. They have games like that called first person shooters (FPS.) It's probably what some people should play instead of an MMO.

And this is the problem with a lot of people on the game. Because yes, this is a game. To address your numbered points, I said attainable, not handed out for free. Yes, an MMO requires effort and some hard work, and such hard work shouldn't go unrewarded. However, there has to be a balance offered for players of all ability and commitment. If someone wants to start playing the game then they can almost go ahead and do what you've suggested - that's what Abyssea is for. We all know a char can be leeched up to 90 in a couple of days - but how does that undermine anything that you've done? You know you achieved your level 90 through traditional parties or soloing, and that gives you some pride, but what right does that give you to want to take away the new easier methods of levelling?

The same argument can be applied to almost anything in the game. SE (or whoever) don't create games just for the hardcore MMO player with 100 hours a week or more to spend on a game. FFXI seems to have been like this for many a long year, and now that SE are coming up with new stuff that's more powerful than pre-existing items, yet takes a fraction of the time - so? If you treat this game like a job, then you're playing it for the wrong reasons. If you enjoyed the number of fights/length of time it took to get a relic, then great. Don't try and take pleasure away from new people who have achieved something in a fraction of the time it took you just because you're bitter.

I'll say again, this is a game. Games are for entertainment - not a job. And finally, stop being so elitist.

[Unctgtg]

Actually took me awhile, as I went to school and worked full time as well.

[Sama]

Apoc90 [Do you need it?] [Sale] 100g pst

[Duzell]

There is an exception to this rule, the DRG Polearm legendary weapons. the order for those goes Mythic > Relic > Empyrian, Calaman's Torment.... yea.... Drakesbane is still #1.

[Unctgtg]

Hey SE, are we planning on seeing the Relic buff this update in a few weeks?

[Zeroth]

Well, SE tweeted:

We're planning to enhance Aegis in the next major version update in order to balance it with the new and powerful Ochain!

So leaves one to believe they would also be making the changes to relics and mythics as well?

[Rambus]

Well, SE tweeted:

We're planning to enhance Aegis in the next major version update in order to balance it with the new and powerful Ochain!

So leaves one to believe they would also be making the changes to relics and mythics as well?

I know how much time it can take to shuffle though all the pages, the thing with relic shield is that it needs more then MDT boosting (it caps, very easy to get, and that is why it is outclassed badly)

but here is SE rep replay to this thread:

We are aware that there currently exists a major difference between the strength of Empyrean weapons and that of Relic and Mythic weapons.

In regards to that balance issue, we are planning to make adjustments. We plan to create a higher level of balance by strengthening both Relic and Mythic weapons instead of simply weakening Empyrean weapons.

Along with that, we are also planning to make adjustments to both the time and cost required to create and strengthen Relic and Mythic weapons. Eventually, we would like to even out the differences in the amount of time required to create and strengthen these weapons.

[Dreimar]

Most relic weapons are worthless, they always be, exept 2-3 maybe ( Bow - Horn - Shield ? ) and already got some boost no?
Off course the effort getting one of those cant be compared to an Empyrean ( Dozens millions Gil - competition finding enough coins - months of shouting and such ). Solution : next version update all relics weapons will get a minimum of 200 Base damage ( including Horn!! )! Doing so i wish to not have to see again people quit 1 week after completing one of those.

[Unctgtg]

Bump for SE to see this again for Monday and for Returner1 since he asked me to bump it

[Unctgtg]

Guess SE forgot????

[Sama]

Down supporting this.

SE needs to give us an answer: either confirm we (the relic owners) are stupid losers or they will do something about it.

Or just say you won't do nothing that is all for relic then we know we are the big L.

[Atomic_Skull]

Aegis and Burtgang were updated so that their -magic and -physical damage break the 50% cap. If they had updated any of the other relic or mythic weapons it would have been mentioned in the update notes along with this.

[Feliciaa]

Figured it was too good to be true. Maybe they said they would make Relic and Mythic weapons stronger just to get people to stop talking about it. lol

Although... Changing Dynamis but still having Relics be very weak compared to an Emp. Weapon kind of makes the whole thing pointless, so maybe they just did not post any notes on it.... >.>

[Vold]

Down supporting this.

SE needs to give us an answer: either confirm we (the relic owners) are stupid losers or they will do something about it.

Or just say you won't do nothing that is all for relic then we know we are the big L.

They've already mentioned they are adjusting relics/mythics/empyreans in the future. What more do you want? They can't do everything by yesterday.


We are aware that there currently exists a major difference between the strength of Empyrean weapons and that of Relic and Mythic weapons.

In regards to that balance issue, we are planning to make adjustments. We plan to create a higher level of balance by strengthening both Relic and Mythic weapons instead of simply weakening Empyrean weapons.

Along with that, we are also planning to make adjustments to both the time and cost required to create and strengthen Relic and Mythic weapons. Eventually, we would like to even out the differences in the amount of time required to create and strengthen these weapons.

Seriously people. You're starting to sound like a broken record. As if they are going to stop everything they are doing to make the FEW RELIC OWNERS THAT EXIST IN COMPARISON TO THE MASSES happy today instead of later. You waited so very long to obtain these weapons. Why is the wait so unbearable now?

BTW lol at Burtgang adjustment out of all the possible choices that would have been better. The probable two people that own it are rejoicing on this day -.-

[Feliciaa]

IF relic/mythic weapons are not buffed to compete with Emps this update lets hope that means the team is putting some serious thought on ways to even the playing field between all 3 weapons and the new relics created from Dynamis Reborn won't end up being just Trophy items.

[Futan]

Based on the Goad items from the .DAT mines, it looks like there will be another trial. I very much doubt it will level the playing field, but it's wait-and-see for now.

[Atomic_Skull]

Based on the Goad items from the .DAT mines, it looks like there will be another trial. I very much doubt it will level the playing field, but it's wait-and-see for now.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/goad

Judging from the name those are probably just pop items for NMs. If a magian trial was involved then there would have been new .dats for them. None of the relic .dats were updated so any changes would have been made to existing weapons as was done with Burtgang and Aegis. And that would have been in the update notes along with the changes to Aegis and Burtgang.

[Futan]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/goad

Judging from the name those are probably just pop items for NMs. If a magian trial was involved then there would have been new .dats for them. None of the relic .dats were updated so any changes would have been made to existing weapons as was done with Burtgang and Aegis. And that would have been in the update notes along with the changes to Aegis and Burtgang.

Oh yeah. Forgot they were making them pop NMs. :x

And about the relic .dats not changing, my line of thinking was that since the level cap isn't changing, they just put augments on them like they did the early trials.

[Sama]

They've already mentioned they are adjusting relics/mythics/empyreans in the future. What more do you want? They can't do everything by yesterday.


Everyone saw that but nothing is firm; it has been sooooo long since aby out and people who started this game two weeks ago are now having a emp wpn which out dmg a fighter jet in real life.

Along with all other relic/mythic owners, i feel disappointingly upseting and stupid; except the 'indication of dedication'.

Of cause the moderator/dev knows that, regardless whether they are working on it or not, I just want to express our thoughts.

[Unctgtg]

Hey SE, I love the increase in Aegis, I just hope you follow that up with some awesome new changes to relics. Can we get an idea when you plan on doing this.

[Sama]

Hey SE, I love the increase in Aegis, I just hope you follow that up with some awesome new changes to relics. Can we get an idea when you plan on doing this.

(J/K)

The plan will take place in the near future update and requirement is as follow:

Base Condition -
1. After everyone gets an empyrean weapon
2. After about 30% of total population get a relic weapon

Prerequisite -
Relic-reborn prerequisite quests:
1. 50 corresponding testy
2. 50 corresponding fragments
3. Defeat DL 16 times.

Upgrade Trials -
10 trials, 2000 kill-shot each on xp yielding monster WITHIN Dyna area.

After all trials have been completed players will be able to unleash equal amount of damage as of a empyrean weapon weapon-skill.

TYVM you will not have time to sleep or eat for the next 4-5 years. Cg obtaining your apoc.

(j/k)

[Atomic_Skull]

I just noticed something about the mog bonanza.

Anyone notice that lvl 90 relics *and* 10k unit currencies are both on the prize list? I can't think of a logical reason for this unless...

What if they are planning on making the 90-99 upgrades for relics and empyreans require a 10k unit currency?

[Alukat]

I just noticed something about the mog bonanza.

Anyone notice that lvl 90 relics *and* 10k unit currencies are both on the prize list? I can't think of a locical reason for this unless...

What if they are planning on making the 90-99 upgrades for relics and empyreans require a 10k unit currency?

than they have to fix the droprate >.>

before update it was like:
every 3rd day one dynamis with 150-400+ currencys in 3 1/2 hour (best i saw was 950 in a single run).
(based on a complete ls farming them)
now it is this way:
in 3 days roughly 150 currencys in 6 hours.
(if u have luck and 1 100 drops)

tbh i have no idea how this should make relics easier.

[Atomic_Skull]

tbh i have no idea how this should make relics easier.

I don't think it was meant to make them easier, I think it was meant to thwart people from buying their Relics with gil. Someone at SE apparently didn't like the idea of people upgrading a relic solo by making gil elsewhere and then buying all their currency from bazaars and only setting foot in Dynamis to merc the base weapon, Attestation and Fragment.

Before you could farm craft etc. and then buy currency from Dynamis LS's. Now you won't be able to do that, you'll have to farm with an alliance if you want to amass large amounts of currency.

I think that in the devs eyes, people had warped their concept of Relics where a group cooperates to make a single weapon. Instead you had a lot of people who were upgrading relics all by themselves by doing activities that had nothing to do with Relics or Dynamis and SE decided to put a stop to it.

[Alukat]

well, i made an own ls to farm the currencys for mandau. took me 1 1/2 year. if that really should be their plan it would take almost 5-10 ,or even many more, years to get it done (except there are some things to make 100's drop what we don't know yet), with the same number of ppl.

[Atomic_Skull]

well, i made an own ls to farm the currencys for mandau. took me 1 1/2 year. if that really should be their plan it would take almost 5-10 ,or even many more, years to get it done (except there are some things to make 100's drop what we don't know yet), with the same number of ppl.

If you get 1 100 per run it will take you 188 runs. You won't be lowmanning relics in a reasonable amount of time but a large LS can probably do one in about a year to a year and a half going 3 times a week assuming they get a couple 100's each time.

Assuming SE was serious about fixing relics *and* they make them actually worth the time invested then I don't have a problem with that. We don't need to turn every single thing in the game into something you can do in a week with a couple people.

[Alukat]

If you get 1 100 per run it will take you 188 runs. You won't be lowmanning relics in a reasonable amount of time but a large LS can probably do one in about a year to a year and a half going 3 times a week assuming they get a couple 100's each time.

Assuming SE was serious about fixing relics *and* they make them actually worth the time invested then I don't have a problem with that. We don't need to turn every single thing in the game into something you can do in a week with a couple people.

relic were never done in a week and even with 50 currencys per run, u still can't finish them in a week. but 5 currencys is defenately not enough >.>

[Sama]

I don't think it was meant to make them easier, I think it was meant to thwart people from buying their Relics with gil. Someone at SE apparently didn't like the idea of people upgrading a relic solo by making gil elsewhere and then buying all their currency from bazaars and only setting foot in Dynamis to merc the base weapon, Attestation and Fragment.



You have to do both; you just have to...

You need to run your dyna AND be successful making money (i.e. lolHNM farming). That's how relic owners were suppose to be the idol...

Now you have lame 2-week old ID got 3 level 90 jobs and a kannagi without even having the flux to Sobek.

[Unctgtg]

Considering now there is a Gaxe that is equal to apoc in base damage. SE needs to do something.

[Kiba]

In my opinion yes, at the moment the Development Team has their hands tied with delivering so much content in Monday's update. So we can understand their business in trying to meet expectations. It's just a bit saddening that yesterday night it was announced additional updates on Friday due to complaints but nothing about relic and mythic adjustments as promised.
While it may not be implemented any time soon, assurance for playerbase confidence would be nice :(
like "we understand you are eager to see adjustments made to relic and mythic weapons as we have informed weeks ago. however due to large volume of tasks to complete. This will not be implemented until ???"
Development Team, we understand you have a lot on your plate, but reality was we were expecting the adjustments told to be in Monday's update. If this was not possible at least an update on expected date of implementation would be nice. Please evaluate this concern and understand. thank you.

[Bubeeky]

tbh I'm kinda surprised they even let the relics be updated in the first place...no other game I can think of keeps the same weapons as the best of the best for 8 years....usually that kind of thing changes with each expansion.

[Kiba]

tbh I'm kinda surprised they even let the relics be updated in the first place...no other game I can think of keeps the same weapons as the best of the best for 8 years....usually that kind of thing changes with each expansion.
The fact is Trial of Magians set a precedence as far as upgrading armor and weapons from 75 up so updated was already in the works. It is very true that relics and mythics will not be the strongest weapons forever, however in the current state it is very imbalanced and is why the issue was addressed and the development team responded promising adjustments to be made, which we hope was just not a response to entertain people and eventually forget... :(

[Sama]

tbh I'm kinda surprised they even let the relics be updated in the first place...no other game I can think of keeps the same weapons as the best of the best for 8 years....usually that kind of thing changes with each expansion.

tbh, as a FF fan for 20 some years, if SE do phase out relic like any other mmorpg, I will immediately end my relationship with them knowing they will not care, at least with FFXI, that's because you know what you've worked on for years will eventually be laughed at by a 12 year kid.

[Bubeeky]

not to say that putting years into a weapon isn't deserving of respect, but how can they add new and better weapons if they constantly have to be revamping old weapons at the same time?

[Zeroth]

They are already letting us augment old HNM/sky/salvage gear, why should relic and mythic weapons be any different?

[Zyeriis]

not to say that putting years into a weapon isn't deserving of respect, but how can they add new and better weapons if they constantly have to be revamping old weapons at the same time?
Something that is that ridiculously difficult to obtain, and was/still has been for years, should be the best weapon in the game. Something that takes a week, should not, just because it's newer.

How can they add new and better weapons? Well, one, they shouldn't be better if they're easier to get and two, they already have?

[Atomic_Skull]

tbh I'm kinda surprised they even let the relics be updated in the first place...no other game I can think of keeps the same weapons as the best of the best for 8 years....usually that kind of thing changes with each expansion.

No other game has weapons that take an entire guild several years to complete either.

[Bubeeky]

But they do have weapons that are very difficult to get, that do indeed take months to get, through quests and such. And btw, empy weapons take longer than a week to complete, it just so happens that they were done in such a way that a more casual player can get them, not the rediculous requirements that make a weapon reserved to the most elitest people with infinite time/energy/money/lsmembers to devote to the endeavor.

[Leonlionheart]

And btw, empy weapons take longer than a week to complete, it just so happens that they were done in such a way that a more casual player can get them, not the rediculous requirements that make a weapon reserved to the most elitest people with infinite time/energy/money/lsmembers to devote to the endeavor.

Instead of talking in days/weeks/months it's probably better to be more specific, as in using hours.

Empy weapons can take months if you go an hour at a time.

They can also take LITERALLY a day if you want them to.

Carabosse could probably be finished in 10 hours, would be a better way of saying it. While Chloris probably takes something like 40 hours.

Plus, it's all dependent on how you go about them. You could completely duo Verethragna 90 and all subsequent KI NM, however it would take you FOREVER unless you were magical and had a 100% KI drop rate.

[Unctgtg]

I would love nothing more then another Mod to give us an update on this Topic.

[Kiba]

another update taking place next week and no information of concern on adjustments to relics & mythics. seems to be dodged and ignored
/sadpanda :(

[Unctgtg]

At the rate they are going, most of us might not last through the summer, and with the possible cancel of ffxiv they are gonna lost out big. Its ONE simple post they have to do saying hey we are planning in August blah blah blah.

[Sama]

another update taking place next week and no information of concern on adjustments to relics & mythics. seems to be dodged and ignored
/sadpanda :(

SE is just trying to delay the fix or not even really going to fix it at all; that way they can expand your lifespan with XI.

I rather one day they just say hey relic suck and it will be suck for the rest of your life, then I can really end it.

I don't mind at all there are weapons having high dmg point or emp are overpower, but come on blade: metsu hit 60ish???

[Kiba]

SE is just trying to delay the fix or not even really going to fix it at all; that way they can expand your lifespan with XI.

I rather one day they just say hey relic suck and it will be suck for the rest of your life, then I can really end it.

I don't mind at all there are weapons having high dmg point or emp are overpower, but come on blade: metsu hit 60ish???
I don't mind so much the lifespan as I have been loyal for 6 years :(
It's just sad despite how sincere we are addressing the issue for needed adjustments it seems they are plain flat ignoring.

[Kimble]

They fixed Aegis and Burtgang this update, honestly, its not as easy to just make changes without having it totally overpowered, there is still balancing that needs to take place.

[Sama]

Talking about balancing, all emp weapon is off balanced no? How do SE justify 9k ws dmg from Emp Wpn? That does NOT　ｓｏｕｎｄ　ｂａｌａｎｃｅｄ　ａｔ　ａｌｌ　ｂｕｔ　ｈｅｙ，　ｅｖｅｒｙｏｎｅ　ｌｏｖｅｓ　ｉｔ．

Ｉ＇ｍ　ｖｅｒｙ　ｈａｐｐｙ　ｗｉｔｈ　Ｅｍｐ　ｗｓ　ａｓ　Ｉ＇ｍ　ｗｏｒｋｉｎｇ　ｏｎ　Ｋａｎｎａｇｉ　ｍｙｓｅｌｆ．　Ｉｔ＇ｓ　ｊｕｓｔ　ｔｈａｔ　ａｌｌ　ｔｈａｔ　ｗｏｒｋ　ｆｒｏｍ　ｂｅｆｏｒｅ　ｆｏｒ　ｒｅｌｉｃ　ｇｏｅｓ　ｔｏ　ｔｒａｓｈ．　Ｔｈａｎｋｓ　ｆｏｒ　ｔｈｅ　ｓｌａｐ　ｉｎ　ｔｈｅ　ＦＡＣＥ．　

Ｔｈｅ　ｗｅａｐｏｎ　ｉｔｓｅｌｆ　ｍａｙ　ｎｏｔ　ｂｅ　ａ　ｂｉｇ　ｐｒｏｂｌｅｍ　ｓｉｎｃｅ　ｉｔ　ｄｏｅｓ　ｐｒｏｖｉｄｅ　ｄｅｃｅｎｔ　ｄｍｇ，　ｔｈｅ　ＧＤ　ＷＳ　ｄｏｅｓ．　Ｗｏｒｓｔ　ｉｓ，　Ｉ　ｇｏｔ　ｐｅｏｐｌｅ　／ｃｈｅｃｋ　ａｎｄ　ｌａｕｇｈ　ａｔ．　ＷＴＦ　ｉｓ　ｔｈａｔ？　Ｉｓ　ｔｈａｔ　ｗｈａｔ　ｒｅｌｉｃ　ｏｗｎｅｒ　ｓｈｏｕｌｄ　ｈａｖｅ　ｅａｒｎｅｄ　ａｆｔｅｒ　ｓｐｅｎｄｉｎｇ　ａｌｌ　ｔｈａｔ　ｔｉｍｅ　ａｎｄ　＄＄＄？

ＳＥ　ｋｎｅｗ　ｉｔ　ｌｏｎｇ　ｂｅｆｏｒｅ　Ａｂｙ　ｅｖｅｎ　ｃａｍｅ　ｏｕｔ．　Ｎｏｔｈｉｎｇ　ｈａｓ　ｂｅｅｎ　ｄｏｎｅ　ａｓ　ｆａｒ　ａｓ　ａｌｌ　ｔｈｅｓｅ　ｕｐｄａｔｅ　ｇｏｅｓ　ｆｏｒ　ｔｈｅ　ｐａｓｔ　ｙｅａｒ．　

[Unctgtg]

Yes but they are very quick to break my Apoc then nerf it twice. So I am done being nice. SE fix your game like you said.

[Atomic_Skull]

And btw, empy weapons take longer than a week to complete,


Only if you suck. My LS made a lvl 90 Caladbolg for one of our DRKs in about 6 days starting with a Break Blade from the Splintery Chest. And if you only count the pop NMs then it would have been 3 days. We completed each pop NM in one farming session per day over 3 days.

[Kiba]

Yes but they are very quick to break my Apoc then nerf it twice. So I am done being nice. SE fix your game like you said.
At first I had a common thought that adjustments take time to test and balance, however with all the goodies being brought in in such a short time, I find it reasonable to be able to apply adjustments in a short time since it's just dmg modifications. Unless it is a complete revamp of weaponskills including aftermath I really hope we hear some news this week on their plans of implementation to gain back player confidence.

[Unctgtg]

At first I had a common thought that adjustments take time to test and balance, however with all the goodies being brought in in such a short time, I find it reasonable to be able to apply adjustments in a short time since it's just dmg modifications. Unless it is a complete revamp of weaponskills including aftermath I really hope we hear some news this week on their plans of implementation to gain back player confidence.

I agree, I do understand they are trying to fix stuff they broke last week and they are having tons of minor updates along, with another version update on June. So I do hope to hear something, or at least in August the 95 version = 200% increase in damage. Because I just read somewhere they are adding more pops ??? for Emp weapon NMs which means now u can get them done in 1/2 the time.

[Sama]

And btw, empy weapons take longer than a week to complete, it just so happens that they were done in such a way that a more casual player can get them, not the rediculous requirements that make a weapon reserved to the most elitest people with infinite time/energy/money/lsmembers to devote to the endeavor.

1. Emp Wpn can definitely be done within a week assuming there is less competition and you got aby ls; I've seen a nin finished lv85 Kannagi with a little over 2-3 weeks, which he/she barely started the game a few months and don't even have RR VV. He's not even the ls sack and is just for being part of it (for yellow proc)?

2. There is nothing wrong for someone who is what you call 'the most elitest people with infinite time/energy/money/lsmembers' to wield a good weapon.

I think I got your point; casual players get to hold a emp; the 'elites' can use relic/mystic.

Then just answer my question: How the hell because emp is suppose to be good and therefore relic/mystic should be lame???????????

SE just don't have the logic to convince me that this is fair.

[Sama]

I just read somewhere they are adding more pops ??? for Emp weapon NMs which means now u can get them done in 1/2 the time.

In 3 days lol?

Another though after going to several new dyna runs, I noticed the currency drop rate is terrible; now, remember, that's almost the same feeling for mystic. Is SE giving up relic like mystic? I guess I'm just closed to done with FFXI. This is totally BS.

[Kimble]

In 3 days lol?

Another though after going to several new dyna runs, I noticed the currency drop rate is terrible; now, remember, that's almost the same feeling for mystic. Is SE giving up relic like mystic? I guess I'm just closed to done with FFXI. This is totally BS.

No, 100s drop at a good rate from NMs and currency drops well when you trigger weakness on regular mobs. Now before you start up about it being like abyssea, its not. Test has now shown that the procs are tied to getting all the TEs and the procs are limited to what you currently have in your party. Once its broken down better, you should be able to proc on every single mob.

Give things longer then a week before you can really decide if its good or not.

[Unctgtg]

Yes there are threads of teams of 3-4 going in getting over 150 currency in about an hr. Taking on 0 NMs. So not a bad haul. I remember times we went in with 60 in dynamis X years ago and pulling 150 was a strain.

[Sama]

Yes there are threads of teams of 3-4 going in getting over 150 currency in about an hr.

May be it's still too early for me to say but most threads here (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/forums/90) does not agree with the 150 coins/hr drop.

Am I missing something? I mean I heard that SE claimed this will increase the coin drop across the worlds which makes relic easier to obtain but that's assuming every drg can solo every thing with proc within any dyna area.

[Atomic_Skull]

Am I missing something? I mean I heard that SE claimed this will increase the coin drop across the worlds which makes relic easier to obtain but that's assuming every drg can solo every thing with proc within any dyna area.

They actually said that it would increase distribution, they said nothing about increasing the total amount of currency coming out of Dynamis or about making Relics easier to upgrade. People just read "increased distribution" as meaning an increase in the total amount and a reduction in the difficulty of upgrading relics as a result.

But it is now clear that this is not what they actually meant. "Increased distribution" ment exactly that, increased distribution, not increased amount.

[Unctgtg]

They actually said that it would increase distribution, they said nothing about increasing the total amount of currency coming out of Dynamis or about making Relics easier to upgrade. People just read "increased distribution" as meaning an increase in the total amount and a reduction in the difficulty of upgrading relics as a result.

But it is now clear that this is not what they actually meant. "Increased distribution" ment exactly that, increased distribution, not increased amount.

Usually means increase currency means increase cost for currency

[Kiba]

So nice to see communication again since last week. I look forward to the changes with the seal system that involves exchange. Back on topic can we kindly have an update from development team when adjustments to relics & mythics are expected to be implemented? As expressed a lot of players look forward to this were anticipating this in the 5/9 update. We would appreciate a response. Thank you.

[Sama]

So nice to see communication again since last week. I look forward to the changes with the seal system that involves exchange. Back on topic can we kindly have an update from development team when adjustments to relics & mythics are expected to be implemented? As expressed a lot of players look forward to this were anticipating this in the 5/9 update. We would appreciate a response. Thank you.

I just hope that those upgrade won't torture us like before with those meaningless 2000 kill shots for 5-6 sets of monsters >_<

I mean seriously, from a physical or mental stand point, those quests are curses from hell.

[Atomic_Skull]

Going to make a prediction.


lvl 95: 200 Arch Angra Maiynu Wings.

lvl 99: 300 Arch Dynamis Lord Fragments.

Each kill drops 1-2


And for Empyrean weapons:


lvl 95: 70x100 unit ancient currency

lvl 99: 1x10,000 unit ancient currency (30x100 returned to you after upgrade)



Relics will be slightly more powerful, but Empyreans will be weapons that you don't have to fully upgrade for them to be useful. The final two stages on the Empyreans will just be optional upgrades while with the Relics you have to upgrade it all the way for it to be good.

[Unctgtg]

Awaiting your kind respond SE Rep

[Panthera]

Along with that, we are also planning to make adjustments to both the time and cost required to create and strengthen Relic and Mythic weapons. Eventually, we would like to even out the differences in the amount of time required to create and strengthen these weapons.

Along these lines, could it be possible to make the Tier 3 ZNM drops 100% I can see being required to fight each one once as fair, but fighing them again and again, and every mob leading up to them is just ridiculous.

Furthermore, why is it necessary to re-do every single assault mission? Requiring rank of captain is one thing, but after that, the player has already beaten that section of ToAU.

In either case, we're only required to beat Odin, the chariots, the ToAU Kings one time each.

Finally, either lower the number of Alexandrites required, make Alexandrites available in other areas, or both.

[Atomic_Skull]

Along these lines, could it be possible to make the Tier 3 ZNM drops 100% I can see being required to fight each one once as fair, but fighing them again and again, and every mob leading up to them is just ridiculous.

Furthermore, why is it necessary to re-do every single assault mission? Requiring rank of captain is one thing, but after that, the player has already beaten that section of ToAU.

In either case, we're only required to beat Odin, the chariots, the ToAU Kings one time each.

Finally, either lower the number of Alexandrites required, make Alexandrites available in other areas, or both.

Assuming that they buff Relics and Mythics, why should they make them easier? They already have a set of easy to obtain super weapons for those than can't be bothered.

[Panthera]

Assuming that they buff Relics and Mythics, why should they make them easier?
Making them as strong as Emperians make them worthwhile to have. Making them equal in ease to get makes them worthwhile to go after. Further, Relics and Mythics each have unique properties which Emperians lack.

[Atomic_Skull]

Making them equal in ease to get makes them worthwhile to go after.

Not really because Empyreans are superior.


Relics and Mythics each have unique properties which Emperians lack.

What, double Skillchain? +35 ACC? Neither of those things are useful or relevant in today's FFXI. Every single Empyrean is flat out superior to it's Relic counterpart in every way. Even if relics were as easy to upgrade as Empyreans they would still not be worth the time. Hell even if they were significantly easier they still would not be worth the time because even the NQs from Walk of Echoes are superior to the Relics.

Bravura has an Aftermath of 18% DEF down and -30 evasion to the target and -20% physical damage received but that pales in comparison to blasting mobs with a 5k dmg WS every 10 seconds and double damage procs. There is no conceivable situation where you would use Bravura over Ukonvasara or even Maschu +2.

None.

At all.

Ever.

And compared to other Relics Bravura has a very good Aftermath, most of the other Relic aftermath effects are rather poor and the disparity is even greater with other Relics vs Empyrean comparisons.

[Panthera]

Not really because Empyreans are superior.
No, they won't be superior because they said they'd increase Relics and Mythics to be as strong as Empereans, as well as equally easy to get. This may see an increase to Relic and Mythic Weapon skills as well as Aftermath effects. You're right though, there is no conceivable situation in which you'd use one over the other because we don't yet know how the update will go down.

[Atomic_Skull]

No, they won't be superior because they said they'd increase Relics and Mythics to be as strong as Empereans, as well as equally easy to get.

They actually said that they planned on balancing the difficulty between relics and mythics. The only mention of Empyreans was in a previous paragraph where they said they were aware that Empyreans were stronger than Relics. They didn't say anything about making Relics easier to get and judging by the Dynamis changes I doubt that is the case.

[Panthera]

They actually said that they planned on balancing the difficulty between relics and mythics. The only mention of Empyreans was in a previous paragraph where they said they were aware that Empyreans were stronger than Relics.

I don't follow what you're getting at. If it is still your contention that Relics and Mythics are not worthwhile because they aren't as strong as Empereans, they are in fact going to make Relics and Mythics as strong as Empereans, as follows:...





In regards to that balance issue, we are planning to make adjustments. We plan to create a higher level of balance by strengthening both Relic and Mythic weapons...

Now, as for your second misunderstanding, as follows:...


They didn't say anything about making Relics easier to get...

Yes, they did, as follows:...



we are also planning to make adjustments to both the time and cost required to create...Relic and Mythic weapons.

Now then, back to your original query, which I didn't really answer, as follows:...

why should they make them easier? They already have a set of easy to obtain super weapons

The reason is that they want to keep content playable and relevant because it gives us reasons to keep playing, which is a good thing. There are still good pieces of AF2 here and there, and so the currency should still have a purpose as well, or what is it for? As for Mythics, there is so much content related to meeting all the quest requirements. They can keep using all that content without modification by simply upgrading the Weapons themselves, which shouldn't be that difficult to re-code. Furthermore, they should make it easier just because the Mythic requirements are just bonkers. There just aren't that many of them out there compared to Empereans and even Relics, and some people, including myself, are still working on them to this day.

That's why.

[Xilk]

the only point I see where Empyreans are more powerful, is because the WS are more powerful. The stats on the weapons themselves seem pretty well balanced.

[Akujima]

I wouldn't be against making all Relic/Mythic/Empyrean be equally powerful and just as equally easy to obtain. That way there would be some variety in different endgame weapons you see out there, instead of just every NIN having a Kannagi.

EDIT:


the only point I see where Empyreans are more powerful, is because the WS are more powerful. The stats on the weapons themselves seem pretty well balanced.


Yea, this actually seems like the main issue. When it comes to weapons like Gungnir and Ryunohige, I would say the stats on the Lv90 versions of those, blow Rhongomiant out of the water. Even with Ryunohige having less DMG, it seems better than Rhongomiant, since the Aftermath of getting to attack twice seems better, because then you could possibly crit each of those two hits.

Although I could be wrong, because I'm not a "Min/Max'er" and I don't do rigid math (I prefer to enjoy my games, not treat them like homework lol), so please forgive me.

[Dart]

welcome to "occasionally does double damage" outside a few of the ws being vastly superior the rest aren't. the 30,40,50% dealing double dmg is the killer for empy. Relic/Mythic need something to equalize this out or they'll never compete.

[Kiba]

Seriously....dodge after dodge. It has now been two weeks. Can we have a response please? Waiting patiently for the next round of responses to threads only to end in disappointment that this thread got ignored again. We just want a status on when to expect implementation since it was expected in the 5/9 update which did not happen ; ;

[wish12oz]

I wouldn't be against making all Relic/Mythic/Empyrean be equally powerful and just as equally easy to obtain. That way there would be some variety in different endgame weapons you see out there, instead of just every NIN having a Kannagi.


This is actually impossible, unless they make them all exactly the same, but with different graphics and names. If they are different at all, and the same effort is required for any of them, the players will find the best one, and everyone will get it.


Seriously....dodge after dodge. It has now been two weeks. Can we have a response please?

Lack of a response in and of itself is a response, it means something to the effect of "No, go away."


We just want a status on when to expect implementation since it was expected in the 5/9 update which did not happen ; ;

You should expect them to work on having the weapons balanced for the level 99 cap, not the 90/95 cap.

[Akujima]

This is actually impossible, unless they make them all exactly the same, but with different graphics and names. If they are different at all, and the same effort is required for any of them, the players will find the best one, and everyone will get it.

Dude, nobody cares about fractions and barely noticeable percentages. Just make them equally powerful AND with different stats, then for every situation that arises one will slightly top the other (key word being SLIGHTLY).

[Unctgtg]

Kiba I am in your boat, I am awaiting the big response from them. I bet you they are waiting until August when we go to 95 and they boost it huge. But an answer will be nice, because frankly we aren't going away.

[Sama]

Kiba I am in your boat, I am awaiting the big response from them. I bet you they are waiting until August when we go to 95 and they boost it huge. But an answer will be nice, because frankly we aren't going away.

With the total number of relic weapons that are being completed up to these days (so little comparing to emp) I don't know if SE will really do it just to benefit the tiny little group of people.

I hope I'm wrong.