ATTN: Dev/Comm. Rep -Relic & Mythic Weapons Reborn {Yes, Please}- レリックとミシックの強化

[Qtipus]

Not everyone has a setup going for them where they can reach that level of efficiency and you're thinking unrealistically if you think that's how it is. Technically you could finish the relic in the blink of an eye if you had capped gil ready and waiting. That doesn't mean relics aren't hard. Also, don't ignore the NM stage (many of them are glitched to hell and take like 16 hours) and the HORRIBLE VNM stage that's unfun incarnate. But whatever, empyrean owners do nothing to earn their weapons in your mind, I forgot. Also, there's SO much fighting involved in getting a relic now'a'days. Sit and craft then go fight a floating weapon and some fomors. Big whoop.

I'm working on Excalibur too and there's none of the frustration or drama involved, it's all very clear what has to be done to finish it. I don't pay 140,000 gil (only 1 NM by the way, not the full popset or even close) thinking I'll get 2 buds just to get 1 and don't have to compete with 2 or 3 other people for my o pieces. I can't go buy these chloris leaf buds, unless you want to count paying like 500k to get one popset done, which isn't very logical. Not to mention the way people treat eachother when FCing the bats.

But nope, everyone has a full party of emp owners and has it down to a science, we're all the most elite endgame LS in the game who you're referencing and don't have to take turns working on other peoples weapons.

I love how relic owners think Empyreans should just be completely overlooked in this set of buffs just because of ukon/almace/vere when its obvious some of the formulas for certain empyrean WS need tweaking to be worth a damn and not just have the weapon exist for double damage aftermath.

Well first, I never actually stated, nor believe, that some Emps don't need tweaking. SE didn't do anything different with the Emps over their Relic/Mythic counterparts. Some are awesome, some suck. That's just the way of SE.

And you're working on Excalibur. Great. Sure you could have finished that in the blink of an eye if you had approximately 225 million gil laying around, but odds are you don't nor are there very many people who think a relic is worth that much. It doesn't compare. Anyone can do an Emp, start to finish (NMs included), in a couple weeks.

As for what it takes to actually get a relic. Yeah, I sat around and crafted a lot. Yeah I did a lot of dynamis farming. I did a nice combination of both working through a system we put in place with our linkshell to buy coins at a heavily discounted rate (often times 100-200k/per 100). But here's the great thing. That "horrible VNM stage" you went through? Yeah I finished all 3 VNM trials in about the same amount of time it took to finish up getting a fragment and paper for the relic.

So just to recount:

Relic: ~225 million (based off needing approximately 18000 coins of varying types), paper, fragment, 6 other trials requiring 1200 killshots, 200 more uses of the relic WS itself and 5 more paper NM kills.

Emp: 6 NM camping trials (21 NMs), 3 VNM trials (20 force-pop NMs), 175 various NM items. No gil required.

And Mythics are worse than all of that.

The efficiency of my linkshell isn't what's in question here with you. What's in question is "Can you finish 14 relics in a month and a half?" The short answer to that is "No." The long answer is "F*** no." I'm not saying Relics should be better than Emps, I'm perfectly happy they put trials at the end of them to upgrade them further (which is another counter to your whole "don't forget about the whole NM camping" bit, ever actually tried getting killshots with a relic WS?). What I am saying is, don't come out here crying about the lack of attention from the community team over something so easy to get. There's a reason why nearly 4600 emps showed up in a year against a drop of nearly 2100 Lv.75 relics between censuses.

[Rearden]

ITT: People without Relics/Mythics/Emps troll everyone else.

[Andrien]

So what would happen to all the players that spent all that time getting their relics? Fk them? Nice.

If they like clinging on to old content then so be it. I've seen people replacing their Excalibur and Aegis. All I'm saying is content from 5-6 years ago should not be the top of the list.


New content: Level 90 versions of those weapons.

Get over it, they should be better under your own argument, because they're new. They also take more effort/time.

inb4 the stale "no, everyone just buys gil to get them" so-called "argument".

That is true, but I wont change my mind about relics. The same goes with empyrean upgrades. They'll all get some baseline adjustment with upgraded augments. Now I have a hunch, Lv99 will bring forth ultimate weapons that should respectfully trump everything else to balance out that content. Just a guess.

[MarkovChain]

Emps aren't hard work. When you can finish 14 of them in a month and a half like our linkshell did, that's not hard. That's what I call a gift. Even now, SE has gone out of their way to make acquiring said Emps easier (re: Guku, Tunga, etc KIs in gold boxes, more gold boxes/zone, multiple ???s for the NMs themselves) and it was a month and half to do 14 of them before those changes.

I always find it hilarous that guys like you come on forums to make pseudo-elitism comments and explain us how they can "easily" build an empyrean in 3 days, while if you dig a little and check their FFXIAH equipment history, you find the first reference of Verethragna
at the date of [2011-05-16 07:29:43]. In other words :

(1) The level 80 verethragna took you 11 months to build.
(2) Getting the level 90 one took you at least 6 months to get

We are far from the 3 days period. Looks like some people are slower than others.

[Coldbrand]

I agree. I'm not arguing anything other than emps are currently, as a whole, better than the whole of relics. Wish12oz says relics don't need more upgrades. I disagree. It doesn't really matter though since we were just told we are getting more.
Annhilator is better than Armageddon outside abyssea.

[MarkovChain]

Relic: ~225 million (based off needing approximately 18000 coins of varying types), paper, fragment, 6 other trials requiring 1200 killshots, 200 more uses of the relic WS itself and 5 more paper NM kills.


Relic = 50 dynamis runs don't need money. That's 100 hours.
Empyrean = 30 hours for chloris, 10 hours for ulhuadshi, 6 hours for dragua, it is only about twice faster.

The trials for 75>90 (for relics) are about half as painful as getting to the chloris stage.

[wish12oz]

could I ask you kindly, to please provide at few Parses to support this claim?

I ask because of two reasons,

1, I'm not a fan of eyeballing, and i hope someone making a bold claim would have evidence to support it, because Eyeballed averages rarely stack up to realistic parsing.

2, the bigger reason, I've been looking into Ukon and Bravura, any data related to them is appreciated.

Thank you in advanced. (if you have at least 10 separate parses it would be lovely, The larger data the better. outside abyssea content only, preferably Voidwatch)

1600-2000 is a good average on overly hard mobs, 3400-3800 on weak stuff and is what I regularly parse in einherjar.

[MarkovChain]

how much do you parse on Buble Berny ? Who cares about einherjar ? How much do you parse on Arch DL ?

[wish12oz]

how much do you parse on Buble Berny ? Who cares about einherjar ? How much do you parse on Arch DL ?

I believe I covered that in my other post that you somehow failed to read.

EDIT: I'll just repost it for you, but seriously, I typed 1 sentence, how do you fail so much you can't remember the first half of it?


1600-2000 is a good average on overly hard mobs

[Rearden]

Relic = 50 dynamis runs don't need money. That's 100 hours.
Empyrean = 30 hours for chloris, 10 hours for ulhuadshi, 6 hours for dragua, it is only about twice faster.

The trials for 75>90 (for relics) are about half as painful as getting to the chloris stage.

Everything you post is garbage but...these numbers are generally correct if you're doing them in a large group. Dyna and Emps take more time with less people, especially in instances like Chloris/Glavoid where there's really no difference in the amount of time it takes to farm 4-6 pops as it does to farm 10+ pops.

Add on to that that Glavoid usually takes a decent amount of time to kill just because he is annoying, whereas Chloris goes down really quick.

[wish12oz]

Personally, I kind of wonder what Sama has to say, but it can't be very important since he's to much of a coward to actually leave his comments up for more then 2 minutes, did anyone actually see either them on the previous page?

[Bumbeen]

How do they compare in man-hours?

[Qtipus]

I always find it hilarous that guys like you come on forums to make pseudo-elitism comments and explain us how they can "easily" build an empyrean in 3 days, while if you dig a little and check their FFXIAH equipment history, you find the first reference of Verethragna
at the date of [2011-05-16 07:29:43]. In other words :

(1) The level 80 verethragna took you 11 months to build.
(2) Getting the level 90 one took you at least 6 months to get

We are far from the 3 days period. Looks like some people are slower than others.

Yeah, I didn't actually start H2H until the beginning of May. You're assuming I started on it when they were first released, but nope, I didn't start on them until about a month after I had MNK at 90, which was just before the servers went down. Thanks, try again super sleuth.

[Kimble]

I always find it hilarous that guys like you come on forums to make pseudo-elitism comments and explain us how they can "easily" build an empyrean in 3 days, while if you dig a little and check their FFXIAH equipment history, you find the first reference of Verethragna
at the date of [2011-05-16 07:29:43]. In other words :

(1) The level 80 verethragna took you 11 months to build.
(2) Getting the level 90 one took you at least 6 months to get

We are far from the 3 days period. Looks like some people are slower than others.

I always find it hilarous that you have no concept of changes that took place of the time abyssea came out.

When the 8 weapons came out, no one bothered to work on 80 weapons because at the time, it was to much work for only a high damage weapon that wasn't worth it at the time. When 85 came out, people started to work on it but even then, not all KIs could be found in chests.

Also, the mobs because even easier to kill/low man when we got 2-3 atmas we can use at a time, and stronger atmas as time progressed, as well as more HP/MP abbysites, etc.

Also, you can not use the AH history as an accurate time line for when someone completes an empy. As it is now, AH cant even scan anything higher than the level 80 unless you use another program that can scan for you.

Plus, some people dont even pop on their 80 weapon when they get it for long cause its not like having 80 is useful or means anything.

[MarkovChain]

Don't give lessons when you don't apply said rules to yourself. My guess is that you had a level 90 job way before that so we are back to : why so much time for an empyreal ? If we follow your posts, getting an empy is a matter of 3 days. Yet it took you at least 6 months to get one done. Most normal players will take several week to get one even those that pretend otherwise (like you) because of the prerequisites for one and because Chloris is too much investement to be able to pop more than a few per day. The rest of the path is all about showing your skillz at outclaiming insomniac JPs or forcing your LS mates to hold dragua pops for you. Noone will do all this in 3 days.

[Kimble]

Now is 3 days talking about the 90 weapon, or the 85? Because for most, 85 is the real prize atm, and 90 is just icing ont he cake.

But honestly, if you cared enough, you can get a weapon to 85 in 3 days. Took me about 4 days to get gun to 85 and that wasnt even spending the whole day doing it.

And seriously, who made 80 weapon before Scars came out? Hardly anyone. Stop trying so hard gimpchan.

[MarkovChain]

I always find it hilarous that you have no concept of changes that took place of the time abyssea came out.

When the 8 weapons came out, no one bothered to work on 80 weapons because at the time, it was to much work for only a high damage weapon that wasn't worth it at the time. When 85 came out, people started to work on it but even then, not all KIs could be found in chests.

Also, the mobs because even easier to kill/low man when we got 2-3 atmas we can use at a time, and stronger atmas as time progressed, as well as more HP/MP abbysites, etc.

Also, you can not use the AH history as an accurate time line for when someone completes an empy. As it is now, AH cant even scan anything higher than the level 80 unless you use another program that can scan for you.

Plus, some people dont even pop on their 80 weapon when they get it for long cause its not like having 80 is useful or means anything.

We all know that only the good players could get it done before level 90, you don't have to explain or justify yourself. All I'm saying is that if you didn't get an level 85 empyrean before december you shouldn't give lessons.

[Qtipus]

Relic = 50 dynamis runs don't need money. That's 100 hours.
Empyrean = 30 hours for chloris, 10 hours for ulhuadshi, 6 hours for dragua, it is only about twice faster.

The trials for 75>90 (for relics) are about half as painful as getting to the chloris stage.

I seriously doubt people are walking into dynamis nowadays pulling down 360 coins/run when that was about the average a huge linkshell would pull down in singles clearing a zone before all the changes. The 225 mil remark was referring to simply purchasing all the coins out of a bazaar, but you pretty much just bolstered my point anyway.

Also, I hope I don't need to remind you that SE didn't nerf the relic/mythic trials until this past Dec. when Heroes came out. Prior to that, it was 7000 killshots and 1500 uses of the relic WS. At best, you were talking about 60 killshots/hour soloing. Maybe 70 if you didn't have anyone else there messing with your monsters. By today's standards, that's about 20-25 hours of work. I spent far less time than that getting to the Chloris stage. Half as painful, wut?

[MarkovChain]

Because for most, 85 is the real prize atm, and 90 is just icing ont he cake.

Nope it's because it's a pain-long to farm a level 90 with only a dual boxed mule, which is also the reason all those dual boxer didn't get the level 85 before christmas nor the level 80 before september :). If not why do you explain so few farmed the level 85, because as you said, it is game breaking, so that's a great reason (more that a few point of DMG).

[MarkovChain]

I seriously doubt people are walking into dynamis nowadays pullng down 360 coins/run

When I trioed our relic horn, we would get 200-250 coins per runs, and you get 3000 tukku in the end so I removed those leaving us with roughly 50 runs at best and 75 at worst.

[Insaniac]

Annhilator is better than Armageddon outside abyssea.
Armageddon was clearly designed with CORs in mind and CORs can't use Annihilator.

[Kimble]

Nope it's because it's a pain-long to farm a level 90 with only a dual boxed mule, which is also the reason all those dual boxer didn't get the level 85 before christmas nor the level 80 before september :). If not why do you explain so few farmed the level 85, because as you said, it is game breaking, so that's a great reason (more that a few point of DMG).

You're the one that was on AH saying: "Getting 90 vere is a matter of a few hours (with friends)" Now you are sitting here saying its BS, lol.

Whats even more funny Gimpchan, is you didnt even start to work on Vere till 90 came out so really, you have no idea about anything.

[Sama]

Personally, I kind of wonder what Sama has to say, but it can't be very important since he's to much of a coward to actually leave his comments up for more then 2 minutes, did anyone actually see either them on the previous page?

wish12oz you have too much time checking this forum like every millisecond

[wish12oz]

wish12oz you have too much time checking this forum like every millisecond

That obviously cant be true since I missed both of your posts, but ya, I'm not doing anything right now but hitting refresh on 8-9 threads and talking to people on FFXI.
EDIT:: Im also watching a documentary about Israel.

ALSO
Gimpchan!
You didnt do abyssea when it came out but I'll let you in on a secret, for about 75% of the 85 cap, the mobs required for emp KI pops, like gukumatz, tunga, heqet, etc were all 2 hour repops, not 10 minutes. Empyreans didn't become 'easy' until it got switched to 10 minutes, and I would say they didn't even become common until those items came in gold chests. And besides that, as previously said, you didn't even start on your h2h until the 90 cap, so sitting here preaching about how other people didn't do stuff is just making yourself look dumb.

[Qtipus]

Don't give lessons when you don't apply said rules to yourself. My guess is that you had a level 90 job way before that so we are back to : why so much time for an empyreal ? If we follow your posts, getting an empy is a matter of 3 days. Yet it took you at least 6 months to get one done. Most normal players will take several week to get one even those that pretend otherwise (like you) because of the prerequisites for one and because Chloris is too much investement to be able to pop more than a few per day. The rest of the path is all about showing your skillz at outclaiming insomniac JPs or forcing your LS mates to hold dragua pops for you. Noone will do all this in 3 days.

Guessing this post pretty much explains why you have to dual-box...

I never said it took me 3 days to make one start to finish. I didn't even start an emp. weapon trial until shortly before the servers came back up. Check this out since you like FFXI's equipment history:

I got Simian Fists 3/29/11.
I got Mantis 3 days later 4/2/11.
I got Lv.80 Verethagna 5/16/11.

What you don't see is when I got Lv.85 Verethagna or if I even have the Lv.90 ones. Want to know when I got to the Chloris stage? Probably about a week after I got Mantis. Want to know when I started on Chloris buds? About a week and a half before I got Lv.80. The reason it took a week and a half is there were 5 other people in my group wanting buds. So yes, in a week and a half, we got 300 chloris buds, finishing 6 Lv.80 weapons. A team of 7-8 people did that.

Nevermind the update for the gold chests didn't happen until June...nope, nevermind that at all. We camped Chukwa, screwed around with that skull, etc until we finished all 6 of those weapons. And while we were doing that? Another team of 7 was over in Plateau spamming Briareus and Carabosse.

What you're assuming is that I spent every waking second of my game time camping NMs and the like. No, I'd go camp an hour or so at a time, usually get 2 kills in, then move on to do something else with linkshell mates. Just because some had NMs that didn't spawn for 16 hours doesn't mean there weren't others who didn't spend more than 2 hours for the entire trial camping, but oh well, that's the breaks. I'm sure it'll happen to me at some point too, but you know what's going to happen if I don't see an NM more than a couple hours after the ToD? I'm going to go do something else instead of wasting my time camping it. The VNM stages? Knocked out in about 2 hours total. Our linkshell is made up of "normal" players. The type that usually only log in during the evenings for events we schedule.

Just because you don't have any friends and have to dual-box everything you get, doesn't mean you get to blab in SE's ears about how unfriendly it is to you. The game was built around groups of people doing things, not around your inability to cooperate/share with others.

[Bumbeen]

Sharing is overrated

[Helel]

I'm just wondering how and why are empyreans being upgraded? Shinryu kills x50 or something lol? As for the why part, what's the point? They're already going to surpass any regular weapon on the way to 99 just because of their WS. They're already stupid easy to get, GF and I have gotten 4 90 versions between the two of us. I just don't get why empyreans are supposed to be the top-notch weapons in the game. It's a joke really.

[MarkovChain]

You're the one that was on AH saying: "Getting 90 vere is a matter of a few hours (with friends)" Now you are sitting here saying its BS, lol.

Whats even more funny Gimpchan, is you didnt even start to work on Vere till 90 came out so really, you have no idea about anything.

First I quit last year and came back in february, secondly I never had the pretention to call myself a good player, but I see you and wish12oz are a little butthurt for for being included in the category of players that ...




You didnt do abyssea when it came out but I'll let you in on a secret, for about 75% of the 85 cap, the mobs required for emp KI pops, like gukumatz, tunga, heqet, etc were all 2 hour repops, not 10 minutes. Empyreans didn't become 'easy' until it got switched to 10 minutes, and I would say they didn't even become common until those items came in gold chests. And besides that, as previously said, you didn't even start on your h2h until the 90 cap, so sitting here preaching about how other people didn't do stuff is just making yourself look dumb.

... try to find excuses for not beating the game that everyone was calling "easy mode" until the super easy mode was released.

[MarkovChain]

Just because you don't have any friends and have to dual-box everything you get, doesn't mean you get to blab in SE's ears about how unfriendly it is to you. The game was built around groups of people doing things, not around your inability to cooperate/share with others.

I don't dual box. I hate solo play. I don't know how people can stand soloing this crap especially 37 dragua or 25 ulhaudshi. This game is the most boring thing if you solo. Losing argument / being butthurt then moving to personnal attack I see.

[Kimble]

When did you ever see me calling my self a good player or saying I was a better player then anyone else? Personally, I dont care what anyone thinks. I have 2 empys that I enjoy but I dont go around thinking I am better than anyone because I have them or that its some huge accomplishment for having one. I dont care if it took me 3 days or 3 months to make one because I still enjoy it just the same.

For some reason, you are the one going around saying people need to "suck less" based on when they got their weapon on dates listed on the AH.

[Qtipus]

I don't dual box. I hate solo play. I don't know how people can stand soloing this crap especially 37 dragua or 25 ulhaudshi. This game is the most boring thing if you solo. Losing argument / being butthurt then moving to personnal attack I see.

LOL

"Losing argument/being butthurt the moving to a personal attack I see."

You even failed to get the correct person's name on the quote. Not exactly sure what I lost per se. Get something right man. I haven't lost jack nor am I butthurt. It's almost too easy.


Nope it's because it's a pain-long to farm a level 90 with only a dual boxed mule, which is also the reason all those dual boxer didn't get the level 85 before christmas nor the level 80 before september .

Let me clarify a point then. What you quoted is based off of your own words. If you made that statement as a blanket statement, then mine is a blanket statement as well. If you made that statement to specifically address your own situation, then mine specifically addresses yours as well. Either way, you're showing sympathy to dual-boxers and franky, this game has been nerfed enough. It's already to the point where large linkshells don't actually have to exist anymore, just groups of 4-6 people are plenty to do the vast majority of the content in this game, yet we're complaining about how long it takes dual boxers to get an Empyrean Weapon. On top of that, said dual boxers are complaining about some Empyreans not being top notch compared to their Relic/Mythic counterparts, which obviously take a lot more time to get.

Boo f'n hoo.

Starting to think this pipeline SE has opened up directly to them is the biggest mistake they've made in the past couple years...aside from the whole "curing does 99,999 damage to undead" thing.

[Atomic_Skull]

Everything you post is garbage but...these numbers are generally correct if you're doing them in a large group. Dyna and Emps take more time with less people, especially in instances like Chloris/Glavoid where there's really no difference in the amount of time it takes to farm 4-6 pops as it does to farm 10+ pops.

Add on to that that Glavoid usually takes a decent amount of time to kill just because he is annoying, whereas Chloris goes down really quick.

Glavoid is pathetic if you get a few DRK/WARs with Twilight Scythe and full Desperate Blows merits and a BRD for 80% haste. He'll be dead before Last Resort wears off.



(and just in case someone here doesn't get it, you use Twilight Scythe because it doesn't heal Glavoid)



wish12oz you have too much time checking this forum like every millisecond

Well someone had to pick up the torch after Rog was b&. Looks like he's well on his way to becoming Rog II.

[Atomic_Skull]

That obviously cant be true since I missed both of your posts, but ya, I'm not doing anything right now but hitting refresh on 8-9 threads and talking to people on FFXI.
EDIT:: Im also watching a documentary about Israel.

ALSO
Gimpchan!
You didnt do abyssea when it came out but I'll let you in on a secret, for about 75% of the 85 cap, the mobs required for emp KI pops, like gukumatz, tunga, heqet, etc were all 2 hour repops, not 10 minutes. Empyreans didn't become 'easy' until it got switched to 10 minutes, and I would say they didn't even become common until those items came in gold chests. And besides that, as previously said, you didn't even start on your h2h until the 90 cap, so sitting here preaching about how other people didn't do stuff is just making yourself look dumb.


Oh hey, now argue that Ragnarock is better than Caladbolg. I dare 'ya.

[Kimble]

Did he say all relics were better than empy? No, so why compare something else that he isnt even talking about.

[Karbuncle]

Did he say all relics were better than empy? No, so why compare something else that he isnt even talking about.

^this^

Then again I guess the best defense is to put words in the other persons mouth here...? Difference do not have to be hostilities.

[wish12oz]

... try to find excuses for not beating the game that everyone was calling "easy mode" until the super easy mode was released.

I was actually half done with briarius and half done with sobek at 85 cap before they shortened repop timers to 10-15 min.
And I was done with glavoid and half done with Itzpapa before tunga KIs were added to gold chests, so I have no idea what you're talking about when you say I waited til easy mode to do stuff, unless you're reffering to how I didn't 90 my kannagi until after apademak was fixed, because I didn't want to be that much of a jerk to my friends asking them to kill 200 of the things to finish my weapon.

[Atomic_Skull]

Did he say all relics were better than empy? No, so why compare something else that he isnt even talking about.



^this^

Then again I guess the best defense is to put words in the other persons mouth here...? Difference do not have to be hostilities.

I'm not putting words in his mouth though.


Kannagi is the only empyrean that is always better then its relic and mythic counterparts.
THE ONLY ONE.

[wish12oz]

I'm not putting words in his mouth though.

Kannagi is the only empyrean that is ALWAYS better then its relic and mythic counterparts.
I highlighted the word you seem unable to read and understand.

EDIT:::: Cause I doubt you can figure it out on your own.
What this means is that there are times when other weapons relics/empyreans/mythics have uses.
Like lets say Youre on PLD and youre solo holding AV, are you gonna want to use Almace or Burtgang? Lets say that AV is casting meteor on you, are you going to macro on your aegis, or stay in your ochain?

What I implied is that everything has its uses, and empyreans are not always the best thing to use, I even pointed out when Bravura is better than Ukon. The only one that this doesn't happen for is Kannagi, Kannagi is always best.

[Covenant]

What I truly don't get is people desire to continue 3 separate paths(relic, mythic, and empryean) with further augments via Trials? See my many suggestions about an "Ultimate Virtue Weapon" or "Copy/mimic sword". The basic idea is to combine all three paths into a single "final" weapon version that has all weapon strike on a single item.

This approach automatically reward ALL players that unlocked each paths weapon, while keeping players from "skipping" over content simply to get the better weapons.

I also suggested the "Ultimate Virtue Gear" with this same premies of turning in endgame gear combine paths I to a final version of gear.

[Insaniac]

You didnt do abyssea when it came out but I'll let you in on a secret, for about 75% of the 85 cap, the mobs required for emp KI pops, like gukumatz, tunga, heqet, etc were all 2 hour repops, not 10 minutes.

It makes me sad that no one even mentioned how incorrect this is.


What I truly don't get is people desire to continue 3 separate paths(relic, mythic, and empryean) with further augments via Trials? See my many suggestions about an "Ultimate Virtue Weapon" or "Copy/mimic sword". The basic idea is to combine all three paths into a single "final" weapon version that has all weapon strike on a single item.

This approach automatically reward ALL players that unlocked each paths weapon, while keeping players from "skipping" over content simply to get the better weapons.

I also suggested the "Ultimate Virtue Gear" with this same premies of turning in endgame gear combine paths I to a final version of gear.


Your idea is really bad and on top of that it wouldn't even work because there's not 3 of every weapon type and not all the same jobs are on the relic/emp/mythic versions of the weapons.

[Kimble]

It makes me sad that no one even mentioned how incorrect this is.

What is incorrect about this?

I know for sure the timed mobs in the first zones used to be 2 hour, im pretty sure the mobs in the middle zones were too.

[MarkovChain]

Kannagi is the only empyrean that is ALWAYS better then its relic and mythic counterparts.
I highlighted the word you seem unable to read and understand.

EDIT:::: Cause I doubt you can figure it out on your own.
What this means is that there are times when other weapons relics/empyreans/mythics have uses.
Like lets say Youre on PLD and youre solo holding AV, are you gonna want to use Almace or Burtgang? Lets say that AV is casting meteor on you, are you going to macro on your aegis, or stay in your ochain?

What I implied is that everything has its uses, and empyreans are not always the best thing to use, I even pointed out when Bravura is better than Ukon. The only one that this doesn't happen for is Kannagi, Kannagi is always best.

Honestly I think your are trying a little too hard. I think you are a little butthurt about being unable to get a level 85 empyrean prior to chirstmas for one. For two, I think you are posting here in a crusade to attempt to convince someone (with no maths obviously, because like all BG trolls you suck to much at modelling game a DPS ; because it's obvious, at least for verethragna, that it is "vastly" [to use your previous terms] superior to relic at any time) that all Relics but one can be better than empyrean, so that SE doesn't eventually buff relic and so that they don't make your precious empyrean that took you forever to get worthless.

[Kimble]

This forum really just needs a block function.

[Karbuncle]

I think you are a little butthurt


with no maths obviously, because like all BG trolls

You attempt to sneak in some form of "BG elitist" or "BG Troll" In all your posts in retaliation to anyone from BG. Does that not strike you as butthurt too? You seem to hate the place awfully hard.

Just because someone posts on BG does not make them a Troll, and just because someone knows math does not make them a Troll. They speak their opinion, it differs from yours, Big whoop,

You can disagree with someone, and intelligently explain to them why you feel their opinion is wrong, provide proof, and actually back up your claim with things other than blind insults and shots at their forum posting history. it is possible. Even if they're being rude, Its not reason to return the favor. Two wrongs dont make a right.

Everyones human, We all make mistakes, but you shouldn't do this all the time. Almost all posts I see you make are some pseudo-insulting long rant about how someone-or-somethingsaid is dumb and/or wrong. or your wonderful quote, suck less.

For clarifications sake, This has nothing to do with rather i agree or disagree with Wish's point of view, Frankly I was only interested in Bravura/Ukon parses. This is Only to point out you're being quite hypocritical.

[Insaniac]

What is incorrect about this?

I know for sure the timed mobs in the first zones used to be 2 hour, im pretty sure the mobs in the middle zones were too.Dude, you're crazy. Nothing in abyssea has ever been more than a 1hr spawn and stuff like adze guku tunga ect. was originally 30~ minutes.

[Kimble]

Dude, you're crazy. Ill look up the change later in update notes. but was diff more then 30 minute respawns.

[Insaniac]

It was 30-45 usually closer to 30. Even stuff like Ovni was only 1 hour~ I started doing abyssea NM runs about 2 weeks after it was introduced and we would go in for 90 minutes and kill roamers 2-3 times a run. The hardest thing about abyssea back then was that we had no clue wtf proced and when so you could claim 5 Adze in a row and never get a KI.

[Zumi]

I got somewhat disappointed when FFXI turned into lets duo box everything and get the best weapons in the game. Relics actually took more then just duoboxing some easy NM 25+ times. You had to run dynamis with a large group of people and hope to win some coins. Which is why all that effort on them seems to go to waste when you can basically solo an empyrean if you duobox.

[Karbuncle]

I got somewhat disappointed when FFXI turned into lets duo box everything and get the best weapons in the game. Relics actually took more then just duoboxing some easy NM 25+ times. You had to run dynamis with a large group of people and hope to win some coins. Which is why all that effort on them seems to go to waste when you can basically solo an empyrean if you duobox.

Personally I prefer a system where i can do work and get a reward without needing to rely on others, over a System where 18~36 people funded 1 person a Relic, said relic-person dropping pearl/breaking-shell/jumping servers optional.

Theres a sense of accomplishment yes, But I never liked the idea of 1 person reaping the rewards of multiple people, no matter how "content" those people were with helping said person.

Thats only me...

But I also feel the power should match the difficulty. Meaning Mythics should be the strongest :P

[Atomic_Skull]

Kannagi is the only empyrean that is ALWAYS better then its relic and mythic counterparts.

When exactly is Ragnarock better than Caladbolg?


Like lets say Youre on PLD and your solo holding AV, are you gonna want to use Almace or Burtgang?

First of all, who solo holds AV?

If you are solo holding AV you either have a WHM which renders defense meaningless anyway, or you don't and you are dead. In the first situation you want Almace so your damage is high enough to keep AV off the WHM and the second is completely irrelevant.

Also, lolPLD. You should never bring PLD to anything, ever. It's a useless job.


Lets say that AV is casting meteor on you, are you going to macro on your aegis, or stay in your ochain?

Ochain is still better in overall usefullness on AV however.


I even pointed out when Bravura is better than Ukon

By using an example that is completely irrelevant in today's FFXI. If the application has no real use it may as well not exist. Defense does not matter anymore, not since WHM ascended to a higher plane of existence. Unless it can outright kill you in one hit a WHM makes you essentially unkillable.

[Atomic_Skull]

Honestly I think your are trying a little too hard. I think you are a little butthurt about being unable to get a level 85 empyrean prior to chirstmas for one. For two, I think you are posting here in a crusade to attempt to convince someone (with no maths obviously, because like all BG trolls you suck to much at modelling game a DPS ; because it's obvious, at least for verethragna, that it is "vastly" [to use your previous terms] superior to relic at any time) that all Relics but one can be better than mythic, so that SE doesn't eventually buff relic and so that they don't make your precious empyrean that took you forever to get worthless.

That's the vibe I'm getting too. The real audience for his crusade isn't us it's the devs.

[wish12oz]

By using an example that is completely irrelevant in today's FFXI. If the application has no real use it may as well not exist. Defense does not matter anymore, not since WHM ascended to a higher plane of existence. Unless it can outright kill you in one hit a WHM makes you essentially unkillable.

WHMs outside abyssea usually don't have unlimited MP. As far as irrelevant goes, here's some voidwatch info from today!

Ok so, gear: N legs+1 are 6 acc 3 crit rate. This is my general I have no idea how much dex a mob has, outside abyssea ukkos build.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c243/r5n/wargrz.jpg
http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/218925 -TP set, except Agasayas collar instead of ravager gorget.
http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/217121 -WS set

Mobs: T1-3 Windy Voidwatch mobs.
Acc was about 80% total, Ukkos average 1300~
Didnt use food. Random funny log Screenshots:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c243/r5n/u1.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c243/r5n/u2.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c243/r5n/u3.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c243/r5n/u4.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c243/r5n/u5.jpg

Bravura would of given me 30 acc, or 15% hit rate, or 15% damage, however you want to look at it, as well as hitting for the same amount of damage using the same gear, but only doing around 1000-1200 average for WSs, plus I probably wouldn't of died with bravura twice when I pulled hate and was playing my WHM for 5 seconds and couldnt switch to my PDT set. Bravura beats Ukon for this type of stuff, in damage done to mobs and in reducing damage taken, I can provide more SS's of all the other mobs if people really want to see them too~

[Atomic_Skull]

Didnt use food.


Of course you didn't because that favors Bravura.

[Karbuncle]

Of course you didn't because that favors Bravura.

Wouldn't that be worse for Ukon?

Technically for Ukon, He'd of been using Pizza (I assume, to cap accuracy/small attack boost), Where as for Bravura, He could use Red Curry Bun. I assume he used no food on both tests, however i'm sure he'd retest it if needed.

[wish12oz]

Technically for Ukon, He'd of been using Pizza (I assume, to cap accuracy/small attack boost), Where as for Bravura, He could use Red Curry Bun.

This is exactly the point, didnt use food to prove my acc was bad. Ukon = pizza, Bravura = red curry, which tips the scales even more in Bravuras favor. But the acc issue is one of the main things that make Bravura better which is what I said in my original post about it.

EDIT: ACC was fine on T1s (capped or close), was not bad til T2/3.
EDIT2: Monks acc on Vampire guy was like 50% lol, go go 1 handed weapons.

[Insaniac]

WHMs outside abyssea usually don't have unlimited MP. As far as irrelevant goes, here's some voidwatch info from today!

Ok so, gear: N legs+1 are 6 acc 3 crit rate. This is my general I have no idea how much dex a mob has, outside abyssea ukkos build.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c243/r5n/wargrz.jpg
http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/218925 -TP set, except Agasayas collar instead of ravager gorget.
http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/217121 -WS set

Mobs: T1-3 Windy Voidwatch mobs.
Acc was about 80% total, Ukkos average 1300~
Didnt use food. Random funny log Screenshots:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c243/r5n/u1.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c243/r5n/u2.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c243/r5n/u3.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c243/r5n/u4.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c243/r5n/u5.jpg

Bravura would of given me 30 acc, or 15% hit rate, or 15% damage, however you want to look at it, as well as hitting for the same amount of damage using the same gear, but only doing around 1000-1200 average for WSs, plus I probably wouldn't of died with bravura twice when I pulled hate and was playing my WHM for 5 seconds and couldnt switch to my PDT set. Bravura beats Ukon for this type of stuff, in damage done to mobs and in reducing damage taken, I can provide more SS's of all the other mobs if people really want to see them too~
LOL. You posted SSs from the highest level THF mob in the game with no food. I've fought that thing on DRG and my acc was miserable. If you had 80% acc on that thing then the 35 acc on Bravura is superfluous on everything else in the game. As for the death shot you died cause no one cured you. There's 4 melee attacks a silencga and 2 TP moves in there before you even start to cast cure on yourself.

[wish12oz]

LOL. You posted SSs from the highest level THF mob in the game with no food. I've fought that thing on DRG and my acc was miserable. If you had 80% acc on that thing then the 35 acc on Bravura is superfluous on everything else in the game. As for the death shot you died cause no one cured you. There's 5 melee attacks a silencga and a TP move in there before you even start to cast cure on yourself.

All the high tier voidwatch mobs have evasion like this. Not just this one. And ya, Im lousy at curing myself and I die a lot.
Also, I said 80% overall, only counting the vampie guy my acc would of been lower.

[Insaniac]

They absolutely have nowhere near that things evasion. I've fought them all.

[wish12oz]

They absolutely have nowhere near that things evasion. I've fought them all.

Then you should know that you have to use a bunch of acc gear or sacrifice food. And while the Vampire may in have the highest evasion in the game (I have no idea) I can say for certain that I had lots of acc issues on many other Voidwatch mobs too, this is just what I was doing today.

[Insaniac]

I don't know what to tell you man. T1-3 minus the Vamp are all really easy imo and I have seen them absolutely destroyed by Ukons once lights are capped. The only T4 that has any kind of evasion at all is the Harpy but because of the AoE melee attacks you can't even TP on it anyway. Your window of Bravura superiority is so small it's almost non-existent.

[Bumbeen]

EDIT2: Monks acc on Vampire guy was like 50% lol, go go 1 handed weapons.

I cannot tell you how happy I am to read this. I have yet to do voidwatch, but I am extremely pleased that SE has added content that REQUIRES FREAKING ACCURACY AND FOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! O M G I AM GOING TO JIZZ IN MY PANTS

[Insaniac]

It's mostly the vampire. Nothing else is particularly evasive. Maybe for one handers idk. I'm alwayson goon for voidwatch.

[wish12oz]

I don't know what to tell you man. T1-3 minus the Vamp are all really easy imo and I have seen them absolutely destroyed by Ukons once lights are capped. The only T4 that has any kind of evasion at all is the Harpy but because of the AoE melee attacks you can't even TP on it anyway. Your window of Bravura superiority is so small it's almost non-existent.

It doesnt matter how small it is, the point is that its there, and with upcoming level increases, there's many chances for that window to expand since abyssea is over and acc is a relevant stat now, and since you don't have tons of free crit rate and crit damage and acc from atmas.

[Insaniac]

It doesnt matter how small it is, the point is that its there, and with upcoming level increases, there's many chances for that window to expand since abyssea is over and acc is a relevant stat now, and since you don't have tons of free crit rate and crit damage and acc from atmas.
It kinda does matter how small it is. The few situations you are pointing out right now are gone as soon as they increase the cap and whatever they add at 95 will be gone as soon as the cap is 99. On top of that there's 10 more levels of atmacite enhancements and the probability that, like in abyssea, at 99 we will be able to equip 3 at a time. On top of that even if abyssea is over its far from being done. There's 3 remarkable pieces of gear from voidwatch atm that I can think of off the top of my head so people aren't gonna be leaving abyssea anytime soon seeing as 90% of the games useful content is there. Until Bravura is actually overall as useful as Ukon then they aren't balanced. I'm not saying that day will never come but for now the scales are heavily heavily tipped in favor of Ukon.

[MarkovChain]

Lets say that AV is casting meteor on you, are you going to macro on your aegis, or stay in your ochain?


I think you'll have to double check on bg wiki if meteor is instant cast.



For clarifications sake, This has nothing to do with rather i agree or disagree with Wish's point of view, Frankly I was only interested in Bravura/Ukon parses. This is Only to point out you're being quite hypocritical.

What is hypocrite is spaming a certain thread on BG laughing at other sites because they doubt maths demonstrations (supposedly) then coming on this site, argue on something, and be asking for a parse as proof. Melee DPS come from sequences of random (some independent / some not) numbers that can always be modelized either with a simulator or by an approximative mathematical demonstration - all of this being within limits of knowledge which currently essentially excludes pdif distribution betwen max and min ; it's common sense that a parse is a proof of nothing, so I will just say lol. Unfortunately I cannot provide precise proof of the opposite of what he is claiming because I only master MNK's dps dynamics. But at least for this job (and pup too), I can attest you that spharai is inferior to verethragna in any possible scenario if your criteria is pure damage over time. Abyssea has little to do with it because VS is a better WS on it's own, and vere has a spectacular aftermath effect, paired with a higher DPS and +15 str.


Ok so, gear: N legs+1 are 6 acc 3 crit rate. This is my general I have no idea how much dex a mob has, outside abyssea ukkos build.

First you check againzt mob's AGI.

Second, If you had a grasp on how melee and ws damage work you would know that it is never worth increasing your dex for a weaponskill (with the aim to crit because if you use dex for acc you do it wrong), especially on a WS that is based on STR. I mean in the colibris era, a mob that had an AGI of a normal level 70 mob, even though being 80, noone could could build a decent setup without sacrificing either dex or attack or .. something. As a general rule if you manage to cap ddex, that's a 50 dex sacrifice for +15% critical hit rate (best scenario). If your base Ukko's crit rate is roughly 20% (with merits included), then 15% crit globally increases this to ~ 1.35/1.20= + 12.5% (and this assume you are in the pdif range where crit doubles dmg) damage. +12.5% is the same as roughly 40 attacks. It's equivalent to 56 STR for WSC damage but since 2Handed DD get a decent attack from STR that would be equivalent to 29 str. My guess is that wherever you can put 50 dex, you can put 29 STR.

Also it's not nice to see some people still think they don't need sushi or pizza when their accuracy blows. On most non sushi/pizza scenario, gear acc is better than STR or attack which mean RCB are never giving you the full benefit (100 attack better than pizza in this case). For situations where you are nearing 85% + hit rate pizza is the best always. Lastly, WAR being ... WAR, berserk says hi and laughs at your Red curry buns making them half as useful 75% of the time. Aggressor will not change much too this (aggressor up = pizza useless but berserk up = RCB useless, the ws frequency increase from pizza should make the difference) . An attack/str heavy build paired with pizza will obliterate acc+meat build. Plus, as pointed out, you would need to be fighting mobs with supernatural evasion like that THF hnm in dynamis xarc ; For those NMs you can seriously ask yourself why you are not on BLM a BLM. It's like manaburning Kirin and min maxing your elemental/INT balance when in reality you should be meleing it...

[wish12oz]

First you check againzt mob's AGI.

Ok smart guy, why don't you tell me the AGL of every voidwatch mob right now.


Second, If you had a grasp on how melee and ws damage work you would know that it is never worth increasing your dex for a weaponskill (with the aim to crit because if you use dex for acc you do it wrong),

It's situational, sometimes its good to add dex, sometimes it is not. And if you would look at the set, you would see I wasn't giving up anything for DEX, so lol@you.


more stuff no one cares about that is wrong or already been said

I'm so tired of responding to you because you always get stuff wrong, and why are you telling me to use pizza if my acc is bad? I already said that, and I explained why I wasn't using food. Gimpchan, from now on, please read all my posts before you try and talk about them.


It kinda does matter how small it is. .

It doesn't matter how small it is, the only thing that matters is that such situations exist. When I said this, I meant it doesn't matter because we're not 99 yet and we don't know what content is coming, which is also why it's not worth upgrading Bravura simply for voidwatch. I'm just tired of seeing people complain that all relics are trash compared to empyreans all the time for everything, when they are not. Even Ukon is not always the best thing to be using, and that's what I am illustrating. The best Empyrean weapon hands down, is sometimes beaten by its relic counterpart, and the situations where it is beaten are more likely to become common then not with the future updates and new mobs.

[Insaniac]

It doesn't matter how small it is, the only thing that matters is that such situations exist. When I said this, I meant it doesn't matter because we're not 99 yet and we don't know what content is coming, which is also why it's not worth upgrading Bravura simply for voidwatch. I'm just tired of seeing people complain that all relics are trash compared to empyreans all the time for everything, when they are not. Even Ukon is not always the best thing to be using, and that's what I am illustrating. The best Empyrean weapon hands down, is sometimes beaten by its relic counterpart, and the situations where it is beaten are more likely to become common then not with the future updates and new mobs.
You come across as if you think relics don't need adjusting and you are basing it off something I and most others don't accept as entirely true. No, relics aren't terrible, but when you spend months or years or 100s of millions of gil on something you don't expect it to be trumped by something easier to obtain even if it's only by a little. As a whole Emps are simply better than the whole of relics and they will stay that way if relics don't get adjusted. Post abyssea world is not gonna change that. The gap may lessen but emps will still be an overall better set of weapons.

If you aren't implying that relics don't need adjustment then we can stop debating right now.

[Alukat]

were there any changes to relics in the last update?

just did 3,8k dmg with mercy stroke + sneak attack on an easy prey Ziz in mamook.
that's far away from my regular 2,1-2,6k mercy strokes.

[Kiba]

Just wanted to provide an update since it is the late afternoon and a translation has not yet come about.
On the jp thread (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/543-%E3%83%AC%E3%83%AA%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF%E3%81%A8%E3%83%9F%E3%82%B7%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF%E3%81%AE%E5%BC%B7%E5%8C%96%E3%82%92%EF%BC%81?p=145070&viewfull=1#post145070) which currently has 1070 replies and 250,000 views.


ちょっと補足です。

前回の投稿にどちらにも読み取れるために誤解を招いているくだりがあったことから、改めてお伝えします。

レリックやミシックについて、「D値や固有の性能を強化していくことに加え、別のプロパティを付加することができないかを検討しています。」とお知らせしましたが、これはレベルキャップが99になり、最終的な強化を行えるようになった際の検討事項のひとつです。

次回バージョンアップ（レベルキャップ95）の段階では、レリック、ミシックとエンピリアンの差を詰める調整を行います。
その後も様子を見ながら調整は随時行いますし、その一環として「プロパティの付加」があると捉えていただけると幸いです。

From a friend who has helped me translate information as accurately as possible is as follows:
To supplement this a bit:

The previous posting invited some misunderstanding and we would like to address this.

Concerning relics and mythics, we said that their defining characteristics would be strongly modified and that perhaps additional properties may be added. However, these will be adjustments which will take place when the level cap is 99.

In the next version update, with the level cap being raised to level 95, we intend to pack in adjustments to relic, mythics, and empyreans.

After this, while looking at the condition of the changes, we would be happy for further changes to be made, one of them being the aforementioned addition of “properties”.

Just wanted to provide this to all who have been awaiting news on this closely instead of waiting until Monday ^^
Btw, its been three weeks since my last word that I will be addressing through the jp forums. Conclusion from both are its generally the same, basically what made the response happen was the large volume of inquires on the jp thread.

[MarkovChain]

It's ok to have empyrean be the best as temporary weapon but IMO you need to give goals to players, and yes, long term goals, not something that requires killing 100 of the same HNM with brew because otherwise it's retarded, all this empyrean bullshit completely removed the fun from the game. What do you do after an empyrean ? You try to justify voidwatch because you are half convided that +3 magic accuracy on ring is maybe going to increase the landing rate in case sometimes in the near future something will be worth paralyzing ? Really ? At this point it would be more fun to give dies as reward so that you can change the color or the model of your gear. I don't have many hopes after voidwatch, I fear that it will go to trash like znms and MMM.

edit : incoming madness for having to grind 50-75 dynamis runs. This was expected as the dynamis revamp was imo well done and very accessible.

[wish12oz]

You come across as if you think relics don't need adjusting and you are basing it off something I and most others don't accept as entirely true. No, relics aren't terrible, but when you spend months or years or 100s of millions of gil on something you don't expect it to be trumped by something easier to obtain even if it's only by a little. As a whole Emps are simply better than the whole of relics and they will stay that way if relics don't get adjusted. Post abyssea world is not gonna change that. The gap may lessen but emps will still be an overall better set of weapons.

If you aren't implying that relics don't need adjustment then we can stop debating right now.

Im saying relics dont need adjusted yet, because the lvl cap is not 99 yet, and people need to stfu about it and how all empyreans destroy relics, because they dont. Only 5 empyreans outparse their relic counterparts, and of those 5 empyreans 4 can be beaten by their relic/mythic counterparts under the right circustances, and the relics and empyreans offer things besides just doing damage, so it doesn't matter that they do less damage on WEAK mobs.

[Atomic_Skull]

Im saying relics dont need adjusted yet, because the lvl cap is not 99 yet, and people need to stfu about it and how all empyreans destroy relics, because they dont. Only 5 empyreans outparse their relic counterparts, and of those 5 empyreans 4 can be beaten by their relic/mythic counterparts under the right circustances, and the relics and empyreans offer things besides just doing damage, so it doesn't matter that they do less damage on WEAK mobs.

So are you going tell me how Ragnarok is better than Caladbolg?

[Staren]

I think the idea's completely on the wrong track here. We should be holding SE accountable to make relics and mythics on the same level of acquisition as empyreans. Letting them think we'll spend years to complete any one item at this point in the game is ridiculous and they need to hear it or we'll keep getting more notices from the devs saying "After further review of these weapons we still feel like we should get 3 years of your life in return for a mythic, I mean its only fair right?" When ls's are building empyreans for every melee char in their ls in a month. We have to spend 3 years to get our whm (since SE royally bent them over for relics and empyreans) a mythic weapon. SE the real issue here is your inability to gauge the time involved in the process for the other two weapons. I'm not saying make them so easy as you have empyrean weapons but at least make them reasonable. The balance issue isnt in effects its in acquisition.

[Bumbeen]

So are you going tell me how Ragnarok is better than Caladbolg?

What's funny is that ragnarok IS IN FACT better than caladbolg hahaha

[wish12oz]

What's funny is that ragnarok IS IN FACT better than caladbolg hahaha

I was just gonna say: "Who cares, use Apoc for DRK relic." But your way is funny too.

EDIT: After looking up torcleaver and scourge, and calabolg and ragnarok. I'd say Ragnarok is almost definately better all the time, it kinda depends on just how much the critical hit rate increase is at 90, but Im sure the 'Increase rate of critical hits IV' combined with the ODD is enough to make it melee better, it was +15% crit rate at lvl 1 afterall. If someone can tell me what it is at lvl 4 that would be helpful. The WS's are 2 40% mods with 3ftp and +25% damage compared to 60% and 4.75, and both are poopy modifiers for WSC, so Id be willing to bet they come within 5% damage of each other under similar circumstances but that scourge pulls ahead.

EDIT2: Felt like I should explain the WS thing.
(40+40)*3*1.25=300
60*4.75=285
So basically, if you had the same amount of STR/Base damage/WSC/Attack for each WS, Scourge would pull ahead by a bit.

EDIT3: Might as well talk about ODD and base damage too. Ragnarok has only slightly better base damage, so we'll ignore it. If you assume youre using the same amount of attack/haste and have the same base damage with each weapon, (which you basically will, 90 rag is 1? base damage higher) then they do the same amount of damage per hit, so it comes down to the aftermath and ODD procs and how much attack you have compared to mob defense and your acc.

ODD is just 2x damage
Adding a critical hit is an increase of about 1.5x to 2x, depending on your attack compared to mob def. All a crit does is add 1 to pdif.

So if we count from the low end, and crits only give 1.5 extra damage, then you need 3 of them for every 2 ODDs on Cala to stay even. 30% ODD is what Cala will have (WS at 100 tp) Rag has 10% ODD naturally, so it need to make up enough in crit hits to account for the other 20% cala is gaining.

At 3 to 2 that means Rag would need to get a 30% crit rate increase to stay on par meleeing against Cala. Tier 1 crit rate aftermath is 15%, if its 5% per lvl, which doesnt seem to far fetched to me, then its there. So if someone can tell us what Cala aftermath at lvl 90 is, we'd know if it comes out ahead just meleeing when you have capped attack.

If you have low attack, and crits double damage, then Rag only needs 20% Crit rate to break even with Cala. Which is an increase of only 1.3% per tier, which just kinda looks to low to me, and I'd bet its higher then that. So it's a safe bet Rag is always better when attack is low.

And well, it seems fairly obvious that if your acc is not capped, Rag is definitely the superior option since it can add as much as 17% hit rate. And I dunno about your DRK, but mine doesn't have much if any ACC gear for TPing.

EDIT4: Ragnarok ODD is actually 2.5x damage, not 2x like empyrean aftermath, so crit rate can actually be a bit lower then I said perviously. And it can fire on WS's unlike empyrean ODD.

So with capped attack youre looking at needing a 27%~ crit rate increase, and at low attack needing a 17%~ crit rate increase for Ragnarok to win. And again, even a 30% increase seems plausible to me, since if I had to guess, I would guess that each increase is somewhere around 5%.

So, who can tell me Ragnaroks crit rate increase at level 90?

Edit5: Didn't really answer you.

So are you going tell me how Ragnarok is better than Caladbolg?

All that needs to happen for ragnarok to be better is to gain 17.5% damage from the acc/crit rate increase it offers. and we know 2 acc = 1% hit rate, or 1% damage, however you want to look at it, and 90 Rag has 35 acc. We also know that at tier 1 of crit rate increase from aftermath you gain 15% crit rate, so it's not hard to imagine when it would pull ahead.
Does that explain it or should I be even more specific?

[Atomic_Skull]

So if we count from the low end, and crits only give 1.5 extra damage, then you need 3 of them for every 2 ODDs on Cala to stay even. 30% ODD is what Cala will have (WS at 100 tp) Rag has 10% ODD naturally, so it need to make up enough in crit hits to account for the other 20% cala is gaining.

ODD on relics is 5% not 10%. I don't know where you got that but it's wrong.

Just as a test I went out with the Ragnaroc DRK as in our LS (both DRK/WAR) and his Scourge was consistently lower than Torcleaver. We both have similar gear. So either your math is wrong, or there's some other modifier on Torcleaver.,

[wish12oz]

Except it's not.

Did you not read my post directly above yours? It actually is.

[Atomic_Skull]

Did you not read my post directly above yours? It actually is.

No, it's really not, I went out and compared it yesterday. Torcleaver consistently out damaged Scourge on a similarly geared DRK/WAR by a significant margin (and we both made sure zerk and last resort were up when we used WS)

I'm beginning to wonder if the emp WS might have a cRatio bonus like Spinning Slash, YGK etc. because their damage seems unnaturally high given the modifiers they have. Torcleaver really shouldn't be doing 2k-3k averaging around 2500 on IT mobs outside abyssea even with zerk and last resort and yet it does.

[Kimble]

Are you eyeballing?

Seems like you are just comparing the WSs to each other and not the weapons themselves.

[wish12oz]

No, it's really not, I went out and compared it yesterday. Torcleaver consistently out damaged Scourge on a similarly geared DRK/WAR by a significant margin (and we both made sure zerk and last resort were up when we used WS)

I'm beginning to wonder if the emp WS might have a cRatio bonus like Spinning Slash, YGK etc. because their damage seems unnaturally high given the modifiers they have. Torcleaver really shouldn't be doing 2k-3k averaging around 2500 on IT mobs outside abyssea even with zerk and last resort and yet it does.

I cant take any of this seriously since you're hiding on a mule. Sorry, but provide some proof or just go away, I already showed using the math scourge is better.

[MarkovChain]

EDIT2: Felt like I should explain the WS thing.
(40+40)*3*1.25=300
60*4.75=285
So basically, if you had the same amount of STR/Base damage/WSC/Attack for each WS, Scourge would pull ahead by a bit.


wat. Did you just assume that you WS with an amount of CHR and MND both equal to the other's amount of STR. seriously is it the first time you calculate a WS damage ? I don't have time now but you are overly exagerating what 15% critical hit rate is giving to you. It's at best 10% damage most likely globally while the ODD from mythic will vastly overcome this. In the end empy is better for TP and WS so you are wrong.

[Atomic_Skull]

I already showed using the math scourge is better.

I believe an actual comparison of the two WS's damage before theorycrafting.

[wish12oz]

wat. Did you just assume that you WS with an amount of CHR and MND both equal to the other's amount of STR. seriously is it the first time you calculate a WS damage ?

Assuming you have the same amount of STR and WS modifiers and attack Scourge pulls ahead. I fail to see how this is inherently wrong, perhaps you could explain it.

[Atomic_Skull]

wat. Did you just assume that you WS with an amount of CHR and MND both equal to the other's amount of STR. seriously is it the first time you calculate a WS damage ?

He also forgot that STR and VIT come paired on a lot of items. Like say Ares body, Jinjang feet, spiral ring.

[wish12oz]

I believe an actual comparison of the two WS's damage before theorycrafting.

Hi, Im anon and hiding so you dunno who I am, but please believe me when I say my friend and I went out and did very good testing and it was all accurate and exact and torcleaver is better because I said so and have absolutely no evidence and I did not tell you what we did or what kind of gear we were using or what we were fighting or anything else, just believe it because I said so, after all, this testimony is better then what the wiki says the calculations for the ws's damage are and your crummy math cause math is astupid and 4+4=12 not 8, thanks.

This is my impersonation of you right now.

[wish12oz]

He also forgot that STR and VIT come paired on a lot of items. Like say Ares body, Jinjang feet, spiral ring.

Twlight mail and drk af3+2 shoes add more then the stuff you listed.
EDIT: Oh, guess I should look for a ring too.

[Atomic_Skull]

Assuming you have the same amount of STR and WS modifiers and attack Scourge pulls ahead. I fail to see how this is inherently wrong, perhaps you could explain it.

Except that you won't because items with large amounts of STR MND CHR and ATT in the same slot that can be worn by DRK are very rare. Off the top of my head I can only think of the twilight mail and helm and the Bale feet+2, and if you have Caladbolg you're going to be using Ares Body because +24 ATT > -3 STR and -3 VIT.

[MarkovChain]

Assuming you have the same amount of STR and WS modifiers and attack Scourge pulls ahead. I fail to see how this is inherently wrong, perhaps you could explain it.

You assumed that if, for instance you WS with 150 VIT on empy, the guy with other weapon would ws with 150 mnd and 150 chr which is horribly wrong. Secondly you are completely ignoring the fstr effect, since with a rnk 13 weapon, you get 21 fstr which you are never going to get with the relic. Lastly you ignore the benefits of the attack from the empy. If the relic is done with 100 str and the empy with 150 str you are looking at 37.5 attack difference which is nearly 10% damage already. I bet with cadalblog you can even get more str than this with attack being paired to str on various gear etc.



In the end a serious ws setup on empy would be 150 STR 150 vit, and GL getting even 150 mnd & CHR on relic. Even if you manage that, the empy has a natural 15 vit on the weapon itself which is 9 WSC, plus the ability to stack 21 fstr as well as the natural attack that comes with it...

[wish12oz]

Except that you won't because items with large amounts of STR MND CHR and ATT in the same slot that can be worn by DRK are very rare. Off the top of my head I can only think of the twilight mail and helm and the Bale feet+2, and if you have Caladbolg you're going to be using Ares Body because +24 ATT > -3 STR and -3 VIT

So what youre saying is you dunno what gear to use for torcleaver and Im suppose to believe you accurately tested both of these WSs with your mysterious friend who you cant even prove exists and has ragnarok?

PROTIP: 1 att and 3% triple attack is better then 1 str and 1 vit.
Even 2% TA with -2 str/vit would be better if you used NQ shadow breastplate over ares body, and both of these are assuming the only good augment you get is the max TA which requires a HQ2/3 augment which basically guarantees 2 other augments which can be things like 6 of any stat or 8 att.

[wish12oz]

You assumed that if, for instance you WS with 150 VIT on empy, the guy with other weapon would ws with 150 mnd and 150 chr which is horribly wrong. Secondly you are completely ignoring the fstr effect, since with a rnk 13 weapon, you get 21 fstr which you are never going to get with the relic. Lastly you ignore the benefits of the attack from the empy. If the relic is done with 100 str and the empy with 150 str you are looking at 37.5 attack differene which is nearly 10% damage already.

In the end a serious ws setup on empy would be 150 STR 150 vit, and GL getting even 150 mnd & CHR on relic. Even if you manage that, the empy has a natural 15 vit on the weapon itself which is 9 WSC, plus the ability to stack 21 fstr as well as the natural attack that comes with it...

Ok do this, build actual WS sets and do the math, we'll see what comes out ahead.
I was simply pointing out that if everything is even, torcleaver does not come out ahead, if you want to argue against that at least provide what sets of gear you're using for your comparison.

[Atomic_Skull]

I was simply pointing out that if everything is even, torcleaver does not come out ahead

But it will never be even unless you specifically adjust your gear sets for some inexplicable reason because you want Torcleaver to do less damage.


Torcleaver is Damage varies with TP, Scourge isn't. You're never going to WS at exactly 100% TP with Torcleaver, especially not with 50% haste 77% of the time. In addition, Torcleaver gains a damage bonus from a Moonshade Earring with TP Bonus+25, Scourge does not.

Also, Caladbolg comes with +15 VIT built in.

And, if it's true that the emp WS have a cRatio bonus then that puts them further ahead.

[wish12oz]

Torcleaver is Damage varies with TP, Scourge isn't. You're never going to WS at exactly 100% TP with Torcleaver, especially not with 50% haste 77% of the time. In addition, Torcleaver gains a damage bonus from a Moonshade Earring with TP Bonus+25, Scourge does not.

Also, Caladbolg comes with +15 VIT built in.

Because you're not suppose to get regain on moonshade cause thats gimp! Actually I cant say that, Im not sure whats required to 6 hit either weapon, cause I never looked into it, but I imagine tp bonus is not the appropriate thing to get even if your only job is DRK.

And Ragnarok comes with 35 acc built in! Better hope you never have to fight anything evasive like those pesky voidwatch mobs, or you're gonna wish you had the ac.

Show me the sets you were using for both WS's and lots of SS's or parses when you reply again, thanks.

[Atomic_Skull]

And Ragnarok comes with 35 acc built in! Better hope you never have to fight anything evasive like those pesky voidwatch mobs, or you're gonna wish you had the ac.

the Vampyre is evasive because it's a THF, the other ones aren't really. And no I'm not going to identify myself by posting what gear I have on top of what people already know. I don't care if you don't like it.

[wish12oz]

the Vampyre is evasive because it's a THF, the other ones aren't really. And no I'm not going to identify myself by posting what gear I have on top of what people already know. I don't care if you don't like it.

So basically, you've proven you don't know what to use for WS gear, and you refuse to give any concrete info about........ anything at all, we're all just suppose to believe you that torcleaver is better?

That is so stupid I don't even know how to respond to you anymore.

[Kimble]

Yeah, sorry, why believe someone who hides and cant even take screen shots of their gear they are using and proof of said damage, not like you cant edit your name out

[Greatguardian]

Theoretical gear sets would be ideal anyways, as there are no limitations based on what someone has or doesn't have. It does not encroach on one's privacy to build a gear set in FFXIAH and then just copy/paste the names of the armor/weapon into text form. If FFXIgear still existed, that would work too.

[wish12oz]

It does not encroach on one's privacy to build a gear set in FFXIAH and then just copy/paste the names of the armor/weapon into text form.

But the point is that they cannot do that, because torcleaver barely has a better WS set then scourge, and their whole arguement is that torcleaver has way better gear. The basic differance is torcleaver uses valk breastplate with 3% TA, jingjang boots, and maybe jingjang pants, while scourge uses twilight mail, and af3+2 pants/boots. Other then that I imagine the rest of the gear is the same.
twilight hat, ele gorget/belt, drk earring, brutal earring, statx7 ring, atheling mantle, those 13 str gloves, bomb core, pole grip, right?
Anyway, with those gear sets the differance between WS's will be about nothing, and I'd bet those are really really close to optimal, if not optimal. As I said I don't have these weapons so I never looked into it at all. Also you need to account for the fact that Ragnarok does have higher base damage, and that ODD from relics can proc during WS, so if anything, scourge should win.

[Zeroth]

Wish is clearly trolling all of you, and in any case SE has already stated that relics and mythics are broken so why even argue?

[wish12oz]

Wish is clearly trolling all of you, and in any case SE has already stated that relics and mythics are broken so why even argue?

When did providing math to back up what you say become trolling?

[Atomic_Skull]

ODD from relics can proc during WS


ODD cannot proc during WS on relics, this was proven years ago. Now we know you don't know what you are talking about.

[wish12oz]

ODD cannot proc during WS on relics, this was proven years ago. Now we know you don't know what you are talking about.

You are totally right about me not knowing if that true or not, I just remember someone saying it was, sort of like how you are just claiming torcleaver is better without providing anything to prove it is, and without even proving you know someone with a 90 ragnarok or with a 90 caladbolg. I guess hearsay isn't reliable.
Heck, you wont even tell us how many WS's you did, how you calculated the damage averages(eyeballing? parser? pen and paper?) what you killed, how many of it you killed, what gear you used, what lvl your weapons are, etc, etc, etc. We're just suppose to believe you based on nothing.

[Karbuncle]

Not that i'm a fan of horrible back and forth. But really, At least Wish is trying to explain his point of view by providing examples/Math where he gets his opinion from.

He's at least providing his side of the argument by backing it up with what he believes to be the reasoning behind his statement.

Picking 1-2 Sentences out of his post and making some asinine comment on it in an attempt to save face by acting like a turd Isn't helping anyone here. Either provide Screenshots /Parses /Evidence that you have Tested 90Caladbolg and 90 Ragnarok side by side under equal circumstances like you claim, Or stop saying you did.

Maybe this argument isn't 100% on topic (I think it is, ITs a discussion about Relics and Empyreans), but going back and forth throwing out random bullcrap statements like "I totally tested 90 Caladbolg and Ragnarok right now, Caladbolg won, Proof? no i dont have any. I'll just read your posts carefully and look for a sentence to take out of context and exploit"

Simply provide evidence, It is all we need. If you are right, why fear bringing evidence? Your tests clearly convinced you you were correct, why not post them and convince us? I don't deny you have proof, I simply wish to understand why you would conceal it.


When did providing math to back up what you say become trolling?

That happens a lot here. If you try to defend yourself and your opinion using the best of your knowledge you're apparently a troll.

[MarkovChain]

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.eu.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=455&la=2&tag=forum).]


I used this (http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/222971) for relic and this (http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/222967) for empy. And no they are not the best the final difference is self explanitory as to why better sets won't change the ratio a lot.

general assumptions : I assumed 100% accuracy for both. 30% crit for torcleaver, 35% for scourge. If you don't agree please give the correct value ( I put 10% base crit + 20% base on empy, 10% base + 25% on increase crit IV). I used RCB on both sets. The target is level 97, 90 VIT, 450 def. Both sets use the corresponding gorget + belt. No special buff so everything is outside abyssea no berserk etc. 5% crit damage up assumed. Max GS merits. Didn't assume any specific subjob.

relic set up :
The above set gives 766 attack / 165 str / 87 CHR / 112 MND / 8 multiattack rate ( 8 DA)

1474 damage average

details : average ftp (takes DA/TA into account) 3.280 ; weapon skill D 207 ; average pdif (takes crit rate and crit dmg trait into account) 1.73

the formula for scourge damage is



((3.0+0.1*(gorget+belt))*(1-da)+ da*(4.0+0.1*(gorget+belt)))*dmg*WSacc*( wscrit*pdif_crit*critdmgup + (1-wscrit)*pdif_normal )*(1+1*0.25);

with dmg being the wsc



dmg:=wpndmg+min(floor((STR_WS-vit_mob+4)/4),wpnrnk+8)+floor( floor( (MND_WS+CHR_WS)*0.40)*0.85 );






empy set up :
The above set gives 801 attack / 170 str / 125 VIT / 10% multiattack rate (10 DA).

1782 damage average

details : average ftp (takes DA/TA into account) 5.05 ; weapon skill D 204 ; average pdif (takes crit rate and crit dmg trait into account) 1.73


the formula for torcleaver damage is



( (4.75+0.1*(gorget+belt))*(1-da)+ da*(5.75+0.1*(gorget+belt)) )*dmg*WSacc*( wscrit*pdif_crit*critdmgup + (1-wscrit)*pdif_normal);

with dmg being the wsc



dmg:=wpndmg+min(floor((STR_WS-vit_mob+4)/4),wpnrnk+8)+floor( floor(VIT_WS*0.60)*0.85 )





This means that torcleaver is 21% better.



EDIT(18/7) : I removed epona from both sets and put a stat ring instead. I corrected the relic boost and the base VIT/CHR/MND values.

[Kimble]

What random statements have I thrown around exactly? lol

BTW your links dont work.

[Karbuncle]

What random statements have I thrown around exactly? lol

BTW your links dont work.

^

I'd like an answer to that too. Cause I know this thread is long and i might be mistaken, But i don't ever recall even remotely throwing out random statements regarding Relic/Mythic/Empyrean general power variations and or the balance between them with no proof.

Let alone ever once using math in an argument. My opinions are just that, opinions. I don't expect everyone to take them at face value. When it comes to math, I'll general find someone whos more knowledgeable at it and ask their opinion.


BG trolls are bad at maths

Lie down over there and tell Dr.Karbuncle why you hate BG so much?.


What is hypocrite is spaming a certain thread on BG laughing at other sites because they doubt maths demonstrations

One comment on this, At work do you go around throwing slang to your boss asking him "wassup man?", If you work at any professional location, the answer is no, but you might with your friends. Do you let out a fart in the middle of a meeting? Probably not, But you would at home on your couch.

If you had to use the restroom during a meeting, would you tell your boss you had to take an epic Sh*t? probably not, But you might to your buddies/brothers/etc.

What i'm trying to say is, Trying to put on a happy face here and going to BG to release your rage is no different than the above scenario, Which i do not believe to be hypocrisy unless they at one point previously condemned someone for doing the same act.
.
Would i call it shady? Perhaps a little, But Its not really a secret, nor is it abnormal for people to act differently based on where they are.

Point being, its not abnormal to act differently depending on where you are or who you're with. Which is why people who post here from BG GENERALLY try to maintain a positive attitude/try to help (I do, Mostly), And on BG when they post about here they attempt to get all their negative thoughts/words out of the way.

In a way its much better, If they get their nerd-rage out on BG, it makes it easier to not do it here. Does everyone in that thread act the same way? No, saddly, But i do not agree with how some people there act, same as you.

There is nothing wrong with changing your attitude to better suit who you're with/where you are. Rules here are different from rules on BG Also, So that in itself is suitable enough to change your attitude.

Again, Not everyone does this... But i at least try my best to keep things positive.

[Greatguardian]

^

I'd like an answer to that too. Cause I know this thread is long and i might be mistaken, But i don't ever recall even remotely throwing out random statements regarding Relic/Mythic/Empyrean general power variations and or the balance between them with no proof.

The only reason he needs to group you in is that you're a BG poster, obviously. Christ, it was only a 2 year ban.

[LancerLeon]

Can't wear epona's on Drk

[MarkovChain]

Can't wear epona's on Drk

I used it on both it will not affect anyhting - it will just improve the empy slightly since multiattacks have decreasing returns on pure ws damage. - I just edited the math result it's now 40% better, so yeah...



I'm still waiting for a math justification form wish12oz about how caladbolg can be better than than it's relic counterpart - wish a random statement that goes against ALL players experience.


I'd like an answer to that too. Cause I know this thread is long and i might be mistaken, But i don't ever recall even remotely throwing out random statements regarding Relic/Mythic/Empyrean general power variations and or the balance between them with no proof.

Let alone ever once using math in an argument. My opinions are just that, opinions. I don't expect everyone to take them at face value. When it comes to math, I'll general find someone whos more knowledgeable at it and ask their opinion

You have been asking for a parse (actually no, ten parses) that would have discredited wishor12z, and as such you supported her claims, when in reality you should have actually asked the parses to him.

[Kimble]

Atomic was the one going around saying he had parses and testing with him and his friend using empy and relic that proved empy was better than relic.

How is it so wrong to ask for Atomic to actually show these parses he says he did?

[Karbuncle]

You have been asking for a parse (actually no, ten parses) that would have discredited wishor12z, and as such you supported her claims, when in reality you should have actually asked the parses to him.

Both sources could have provided any amount of tests i would have gladly accepted. In reality you just seem to be bringing it up as if i was defending wish, I was not.

Someone made a statement saying they had tested Ukon, and Bravura, side by side, And i was interested in those testing results.

You are the one giving me ulterior motives that were not my original intent. From my Iwish himself did not have the means to test, He only had his theoretical data, which is usually good, But i was interested in seeing real experience/parses.

If that doesn't make very much sense I'm sorry, But it was my intentions, I wanted the knowledge Atomic claimed to have.

And i still fail to see how any of this was me throwing out "BG Maths" and "random statements". Because, It was more of a question i do think.

[MarkovChain]

Atomic was the one going around saying he had parses and testing with him and his friend using empy and relic that proved empy was better than relic.

How is it so wrong to ask for Atomic to actually show these parses he says he did?

It's wrong when you don't ask wish12oz for the same attitude.

[MarkovChain]

From my Iwish himself did not have the means to test, He only had his theoretical data, which is usually good,

Do you have an empy ? I don't think you do. The day you get a level 85 one it's obvious that the damage nearly double instantaneously thanks to the WS, and the aftermath makes it godly. You don't have that on relic since they are just evolutions from level 75 weapon with slight boost here and there. Common sense tells you why they are much better. Plus on some relic the WS itself was already bad at 75 so you have a weapon that has a DPS like 20% better than a normal weapon with a WS that may be 25% better than a WS that was bad at 75. In the end you can't beat a weapon that nearly doubles damage. Common sense tells you that it is necessarily wrong.

[Karbuncle]

Do you have an empy ? I don't think you do. The day you get a level 85 one it's obvious that the damage nearly double instantaneously thanks to the WS, and the aftermath makes it godly. You don't have that on relic since they are just evoutions from level 75 weapon with slight boost here and there. Common sense tells you why they are much better. Plus on some relic the WS itself was already bad at 75 so you have a weapon that has a DPS like 20% better than a normal weapon with a WS that may be 25% better than a WS that was bad at 75. In the end you can't beat a weapon that nearly doubles damage. Common sense tells you that it is necessarily wrong.

You are corrent in that no, I do not own an Empyrean, I have 5 friends with them, But its irrelevant (i'm working on Mandau), But what is important is that, as you say, Using common sense and to the best of my abilities i will name a few Relics that should outperform their Empyrean counterparts in pure damage at level 90.

1) Mjollnir. (Its still counts!)
2) Amano. (Easier 5-hit)
3) Guttler (Farsha is Meh, 90 Guttler has it on DPS, Rampage > w/e so Aftermath staying up on Farsha gimps your WS damage phase, no?)
4) Mandau (This one i can't say for sure)
5) Gugnir (Rhong... is kinda meh, Gutler, despite shitty WS, is better. Higher DPS, and Its Drakes drakes anyway)
6) Apocalypse (self explanitory)
7) Annihilator

Of course I have no proof, Its all using as you said, Common sense, and in my opinion common sense tells me the above Relic weapons should almost always outperform their Empyrean counterparts, if only for pure damage (Ignoring utility, like say Coronochs almost non-existant enmity gain)

Thats my take on it. Opinions as far as the eye can see.


It's wrong when you don't ask wish12oz for the same attitude.

Ahem. I'm not sure if I'm understanding what you're saying.

But There was no attitude in my post. You are the one giving me some ulterior motive. My post was nothing more than seeking knowledge that one person said they had.

I did not care one bit about the tiff you had going on with Wish, and i was not taking sides. If my posts came off differently, I assure you it was coincidental. I had no ill intent behind it. Just because me and wish both post on BG doesn't mean we have secret PM Sessions on how to p*** people off.

I saw a chance to learn, I took it. From my understanding Wish was not basing his math off of actual in-game tests. Atomic said he was. This was knowledge i wanted. nothing more, nothing less.

do not put words in my mouth or motives in my actions. I assure you, i had nothing but the desire to learn, and from my best understanding, Atomic was the one claiming to have actually gone out and done side-by-side comparison tests thoroughly enough to prove without a doubt Ukon > Bravura.

i wanted this information. Why? I said it in my post on that page.

[Kimble]

It's wrong when you don't ask wish12oz for the same attitude.

Wish didn't say he had actual parses of it because he doesnt have either or knows people with it. He posted his math to back up his claim.

Atomic said he had done in game testing, so lets see it. Wish never said he did.

If someone makes a claim, and then someone else says "You're wrong, i did testing that proves it" and then fails to produce said results, its on them, no one else.

[MarkovChain]

You don't have to test anything if you know the mechanics behind them. If you too had a grasp of game mechanic you would agree with him. If you go with a friend, do a couple of ws and one does around 1k while the other does around 2k, you don't really have to provide parse or actual math to disprove the guys that claims that the 1k ws actually averages 2100... When you level a melee job you usually get crappy weapon skills in the process. You try them once or two and if they suck ... well, you don't really have to generate extended parses to see that shoulder tackle is worse than combo.

[wish12oz]

You don't have to test anything if you know the mechanics behind them. If you too had a grasp of game mechanic you would agree with him. If you go with a friend, do a couple of ws and one does around 1k while the other does around 2k, you don't really have to provide parse or actual math to disprove the guys that claims that the 1k ws actually averages 2100... When you level a melee job you usually get crappy weapon skills in the process. You try them once or two and if they suck ... well, you don't really have to generate extended parses to see that shoulder tackle is worse than combo.

I never said I had either weapon, in fact I said I do NOT have either, I simply posted math saying if all things are equal ragnarok is better, as long as you gain 17.5% damage from the aftermath and acc.

As for your math for the gear sets you use, you probably did something wrong, and I will be looking into it today at some point to find out.

Atomic said they did testing, and that cala was better, I simply asked for information about the testing, and was told 'I wont tell you anything other then cala is better.' And after what happen with that other guy, who claimed to have a relic and turned out to be some random noob with nothing, I am not inclined to believe anon people who won't provide any sort of proof.

EDIT: Currently sitting at 69 carabosse gems and 52 cc lanterns, maybe I should quit being lazy and go do pre trials for masamune and caladbolg =[

[AldielQuetz]

If I recall correctly the goal was to bring the relic and mythic weaponskills up to the same level as the empyreans? I cannot quote it exactly but the general meaning of what the Dev was saying at the time was that they did not want to bring down the empyreans so instead they were going to bring to relic/mythics up to the level of the empyreans. Is this still the plan? I only bring this up because some of us that spent years making these weapons would like to have the WSs be valid top-shelf contenders instead of novelty WSs. I appreciate any time that a Dev could put into responding to this question. Thank you!

[Karbuncle]

You don't have to test anything if you know the mechanics behind them. If you too had a grasp of game mechanic you would agree with him. If you go with a friend, do a couple of ws and one does around 1k while the other does around 2k, you don't really have to provide parse or actual math to disprove the guys that claims that the 1k ws actually averages 2100... When you level a melee job you usually get crappy weapon skills in the process. You try them once or two and if they suck ... well, you don't really have to generate extended parses to see that shoulder tackle is worse than combo.

The best math is still estimates(Very accurate estimates...). *sigh* I Can't explain what I'm trying to say well enough. I mean, When comparing two weapons... Do you assume capped Accuracy. Capped Attack? If not what DEF/EVA Values do you compare them against? I'm not being sarcastic I'm admitting my lack of understanding in this field, Could you enlighten me?

I'm not unaware Parses can also be skewed because of things like not engaging fast enough, dying, etc.

When i asked Rune for those parses, I assumed he had (And asked for, go look) tests on Voidwatch, something i was interested in seeing comparisons in, because that kind of content (not specifically voidwatch, but non-abyssea HNM-level) is what direction FFXI is going in. And i was interested to see how Those two weapons stood up next to eachother.

Again, Yah, Math is lovely, it tells us so much about the game, and they are incredibly accurate, But when i can get my hands on a real parse, I want it, Because for me its easier to understand and its relevant to my interests so to speak.

I don't deny the math, But sometimes having multiple sources of it makes it simpler to understand, For instance, for me, a lot of the math shit is babble, i literally tl;dr and skip to the % Values. Its what i do. Parses are easier for me to understand.

I saw a chance to learn something i found interesting, I took it. It didn't pay off, but i'd take it again no matter who was asking.

And again, I didn't ask Wish, because from what i read, he had no parses, Only the math, I wanted both sources for the reasons i explained above.

If you still don't understand why i did it I'm sorry.

Edit: And really, When it comes to math, don't you ever notice people trying to skew it in their favor? Your math Says Caladbolg, Wish says Ragnarok, Who are the readers suppose to believe? Thats another issue i have with taking shoulder-math at face value.

[MarkovChain]

Do you assume capped Accuracy. Capped Attack? If not what DEF/EVA Values do you compare them against? I'm not being sarcastic I'm admitting my lack of understanding in this field, Could you enlighten me?

Accuracy : I gave the answers. Torcleaver is 40% better if capped 15% if not.
Capped attack : I didn't assume dia 1,2 or 3 so nope. Capped attack is done at 2.2*450=990 attack so we are quite far. You can do a more precise description if you assume beserk available, or dia 3, which is going to decrease the benefits form crit rate and therefore increase the benefits from the empy ODD.
def : I put 30 more def than level 87 mobs which puts them on HnM levels (same as fafnir vs mamoolja at 75). Already gave my attack value and mob's def.




I'm not unaware Parses can also be skewed because of things like not engaging fast enough, dying, etc.


You asked for parses on weapon skill, so irrelevant.



Again, Yah, Math is lovely, it tells us so much about the game, and they are incredibly accurate, But when i can get my hands on a real parse, I want it, Because for me its easier to understand and its relevant to my interests so to speak.


I will just suggest you to get an empyrean first to check what kind of weapons they are. People already parsed their WS numbers to pinpoint the value of WS mods. There is no need to to it again.







Edit: And really, When it comes to math, don't you ever notice people trying to skew it in their favor? Your math Says Caladbolg, Wish says Ragnarok, Who are the readers suppose to believe? Thats another issue i have with taking shoulder-math at face value.

Me. I detailed the math while giving 2 concrete gearsets with therefore actual value for WS mods. He made incorrect assumptions which was assuming you could WS with the same amount of MND/CHR/STR/VIT on any set. It's like comparing WAR and BLM melees and assuming both are capped on accuracy.

[Kimble]

Pchan is almost always wrong and skews numbers to make himself look right so no, I wouldn't trust him with anyting.

[Alukat]

3,8k SA + Mercy stroke outside of abyssea, i won xD

[wish12oz]

I used this (http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/222971) for relic and this (http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/222967) for empy. And no they are not the best the final difference is self explanitory as to why better sets won't change the ratio a lot.

1301 damage average
1834 damage average


Ragnarok
121 badedamage 90+68str 64+48mnd 62+25chr
121 158 112 87
(121+18+38+29)*3.28*1.73*1.25=1461
206 675.68 1168.9264 1461.158
1461 Average

Caladbolg
120 basedamage 90+73str 78+32vit
120 163 110
(120+19+56)*5.05*1.73=1703
195 984.75 1703.6175
1703 Average

Why is it that when I use your pdif value, and my characters stats with your sets my numbers are so much different than yours? Not that either of these sets are optimal, I'm just pointing out that you must of done something wrong cause my torcleaver isn't that far ahead of scourge, like 15%, not 40% =3

[MarkovChain]

I corrected an error and used your values for base mnd/chr. Also you forgot the +15 vit on the empy. I now find the empy 20% better. Give me a hitrate and I will ajust the food and the ws gear on both gear to still make it that much different. Although I bet they both are getting innate ws accuracy boost...

[wish12oz]

I corrected an error and used your values for base mnd/chr. Also you forgot the +15 vit on the empy. I now find the empy 20% better. Give me a hitrate and I will ajust the food and the ws gear on both gear to still make it that much different. Although I bet they both are getting innate ws accuracy boost...

WS accuracy will be 95%, both are simple 1 hit WSs.
TP accuracy will not be. If you look at my accuracy doing voidwatch the other day, I had 85%, on warrior, which wears about 50 more acc in gear then my drk.
I could shrink that damage gap between WS's further if I cared to look into gear for ragnarok and try to find out what to use, but I don't. The question was 'When is Ragnarok better' the answer is 'When you need the accuracy, or if the crit rate increase on it is above 30% it stands a very good chance of being better' And with the standard DRK TP set not really having any accuracy, I'd say there's a good chance Ragnarok would pull ahead at 99 all the time regardless of whether or not SE adjusts it any further, since accuracy will be an issue and actually matter again like it did at 75 cap.

And really, the only real problem here honestly, is that Torcleaver has better WS gear. If they had the same WSC stats/da/pdif/etc Scourge would win. So it's not that Scourge is worse, its that it has inferior WS gear, so it needs to try and make up for that in the TP phase to win.

[Atomic_Skull]

Ragnarok
121 badedamage 90+68str 64+48mnd 62+25chr
121 158 112 87
(121+18+38+29)*3.28*1.73*1.25=1461
206 675.68 1168.9264 1461.158
1461 Average

Caladbolg
120 basedamage 90+73str 78+32vit
120 163 110
(120+19+56)*5.05*1.73=1703
195 984.75 1703.6175
1703 Average

Why is it that when I use your pdif value, and my characters stats with your sets my numbers are so much different than yours? Not that either of these sets are optimal, I'm just pointing out that you must of done something wrong cause my torcleaver isn't that far ahead of scourge, like 15%, not 40% =3

STR 91+79
VIT 78+51
Attack 759 (did not use Last Resort)
Level 85 Caladbolg (still gathering hearts)

Went out and used Torcleaver 10x on Seabord Vultures. after 10 WS there didn't seem any point to continuing because the damage hardly varied.

First number is TP, second is WS damage.

103 / 2045
126 / 2155
108 / 2351
102 / 2279
118 / 2216
120 / 2353
100 / 2310
124 / 2159
109 / 2355
121 / 2431


And with the standard DRK TP set not really having any accuracy

My DRK tp set has +34 ACC +26% haste.

[wish12oz]

STR 91+79
VIT 78+51
Attack 759 (did not use Last Resort)
Level 85 Caladbolg (still gathering hearts)

Went out and used Torcleaver 10x on Seabord Vultures. after 10 WS there didn't seem any point to continuing because the damage hardly varied.

First number is TP, second is WS damage.

103 / 2045
126 / 2155
108 / 2351
102 / 2279
118 / 2216
120 / 2353
100 / 2310
124 / 2159
109 / 2355
121 / 2431


Which is right where damage should be if your attack is capped. And I dunno anything about those birds, except that they probably have low defense.
I mean if you look at your stats, theyre slightly above what I did the math for earlier, so you're looking at like
215*5.05*2.2=2388.65
Maybe you should figure out what the mobs stats are before you go assuming that it has some hidden effect no one knew about when they figured out the WS properties, to me it just looks like you have capped attack.



My DRK tp set has +34 ACC +26% haste.

So you dont use aces hose, calc trousers, aces shoes, etc, you give all that up for acc? With a Ragnarok you wouldn't have to.

[Unctgtg]

I will just wait til august to see what our trial is and how much of an increase it is. I am done bitching and complaining about it.

[Karbuncle]

I will just wait til august to see what our trial is and how much of an increase it is. I am done bitching and complaining about it.

I hope they increase Mandau by more than 1 base dmg :D

[Unctgtg]

I have a feeling I will be swinging a 150 damage weapon :) with 40 Acc and another 50% WS boost

[MarkovChain]

Which is right where damage should be if your attack is capped. And I dunno anything about those birds, except that they probably have low defense..

You don't cap attack on anything that is decent challenge or high easy prey at 90. If he capped with 759 attack that would mean the mob had 759/2.2=345 DEF which puts them on mamoolja levels so nope. The high numbers on his weapon skills are due to no level correction, period. If you redo the maths I did in post #603 with no correction you get 2140 instead of 1782 average. For the info a capped attack torcleaver on level <= 90 mobs would average ~2600 with the gear I gave which is probably not very elitist.

[wish12oz]

You don't cap attack on anything that is decent challenge or high easy prey at 90. If he capped with 759 attack that would mean the mob had 759/2.2=345 DEF which puts them on mamoolja levels so nope. The high numbers on his weapon skills are due to no level correction, period. If you redo the maths I did in post #603 with no correction you get 2140 instead of 1782 average. For the info a capped attack torcleaver on level <= 90 mobs would average ~2600 with the gear I gave which is probably not very elitist.

So you're in agreement with me, and Atomic needs to go fight something that is actually difficult and tell us what the numbers are?
I wish my friend who has Caladbolg didn't quit, or that I bothered to do all these dumb pretrials I'm currently doing so I had one =/

[wish12oz]

It's funny how Atomic suddenly disappeared and won't give numbers for harder stuff since I mentioned I will have a Caladbolg in a few days. Must be afraid of getting caught lying and not actually having one.

EDIT: 6 Urds, 6 whatevers and then 6Tammuz/Chesma and I'm done with the 85.

[MarkovChain]

It is funny how you get corrected everytime you call him or me. Not sure what you want to prove with your next weapon either. Maybe you want to disprove math with parses ? It lije BG went back in time. Those weapon skills have a ftp and mods that were tested long ago, probably by JPs, and you want to go out of the wood and attempt try to prove you are right and maths are wrong. So far his numbers are corrobating the math behind.

[wish12oz]

It is funny how you get corrected everytime you call him or me.

More like, it's funny how you get corrected every time you say anything.
I remember this one time you talked about how you couldn't kill Dragua without super tons of earth resist gear and it was noob to brew it, then like a week later people found you brewing it, and someone showed it was easy without any earth resist gear or MDT: http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/20707/dragua-strategy-as-mnk/8/#1280665 It was somewhere in this thread around here.

Or that other time here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/3647-What-is-the-best-DD?p=54703&viewfull=1#post54703 when I called you out and proved you wrong and you ran away and ignored it. Maybe you should do that again, cause I'm tired of talking to you.

And there's nothing anywhere talking about a cratio or pdif bonus for torcleaver, guess I'm stupid to think if people figured out the properties of the WS and how to calculate it's damage they would list all of that information on the wiki and other places, and not just list some of them.


Maybe you want to disprove math with parses ?

So this is ok when Atomic does it, but not anyone else? Not even a parse, Atomic listed 8? WS's damage numbers on a mob no one knows anything about and doesn't list gear, no SS's, no anything, just says "I had these stats and got these numbers" and you take his word as fact for proof of your side of the argument. How about we test the WS on harder mobs? How about we have Atmoic show some kind of proof he actually has a Caladbolg and a Ragnarok so we know he is at least able to test this stuff, instead of just listening to the person who obviously has something to hide and won't even reveal his characters name/server. It wouldn't be the first time someone came around on these forums claiming to have stuff and knew everything and ended up not having anything.

And BTW, as I pointed out earlier, Scourge is the better WS, if everything was even it would win, Torcleaver only does better cause it has better WS gear, unless it really does have some kind of pdif bonus that somehow mysteriously evaded the notice of the people who figured out how the WS's damage is calculated.

[Bumbeen]

just qqing because relic beats their emp is all

[Taint2]

The 35acc from Ragnarok is very very useful on DRK. (the crits are impressive as well) The reason Apoc is still the best DRK weapon is because you can cap haste and acc on the hardest mobs in the game, something you can't do with any other DRK weapon. Capping haste and acc is the current bane of DRK.

Torcleaver is a beast of a WS and its damage scales with TP which is a big bonus over Scrouge esp with items like Moonshade which guarantees a 5.0+ modifier.

[Atomic_Skull]

I stopped posting in this thread because A: It's not going anywhere and is now a complete waste of time. And B: wish12oz is obsessing over people that don't display their character info and is obviously trying to track me down in game by getting me to give details on my equipment.

Also I don't have Ragnarok and never claimed that I did (I'm not dumb enough to waste that much time and gil on not-Apocalypse) I have Caladbolg, someone else in my Ls has Ragnarok.

[Atomic_Skull]

The 35acc from Ragnarok is very very useful on DRK. (the crits are impressive as well) The reason Apoc is still the best DRK weapon is because you can cap haste and acc on the hardest mobs in the game, something you can't do with any other DRK weapon. Capping haste and acc is the current bane of DRK.

With Apoc you can wear the full DRK AF3+2 set and get all of it's bonuses and still have capped haste.

[Kimble]

No, he doesn't care what gear you have to "stalk you down" Just wants to verify what gear sets you were using in your "tests"

Im sure he doesn't even care if its a game screen shit and just make an AH gear set.

You're way to paranoid about people finding out who you are. If you honestly believe the things you are saying, you would have no need to hide who you are.

Seriously, if you are going to make claims like this, you need some proof to verify it.

Im not sure how hes going to "track you down" when you arent even on the same server.

[MarkovChain]

And BTW, as I pointed out earlier, Scourge is the better WS, if everything was even it would win, Torcleaver only does better cause it has better WS gear, unless it really does have some kind of pdif bonus that somehow mysteriously evaded the notice of the people who figured out how the WS's damage is calculated.

Using your logic : pup would be better than monk if it had the same martial art value or cor would be useful if bard did not exist. Unfortunately ws mods are what they are and your wanting to have your shiny weapon stay the best will not change this.

[Taint2]

With Apoc you can wear the full DRK AF3+2 set and get all of it's bonuses and still have capped haste.


5/5 AF3 is not a good gear set. The set bonus is not worth the loss.

[wish12oz]

5/5 AF3 is not a good gear set. The set bonus is not worth the loss.

Apoc aftermath is 10% haste, and counts as gear haste, you don't actually lose anything depending on what pants/shoes you were wearing before, and it could potentially be a big increase.

[Atomic_Skull]

Let me rephrase that, you can wear full AF3 except for the body which you can replace with the Twilight Mail and still have capped haste.

Bale Burgeonet +2: Haste+6% STR+7 Scythe skill+7 (swap with Twilight helm for WS)

Bale Gauntlets +2: Haste+5% ACC/ATT+10 (swap with Heafoc(?) for WS)

Twilight mail ACC+25 All stats +15 (swap with Ares for WS)

Bale Flanchard +2: STR+12 ACC/ATT+15 (full time this)

Bale Sollerets +2: STR+9 INT+9 (full time this)

Goading belt: Haste+6% Store TP+5

Apocalypse: ACC+35 Aftermath: Haste+10%

Including DEX from the twilight mail and scythe skill from the Burgeonet this is 26% haste and 103 Accuracy, as well as +43 STR and +57 attack (including ATT from STR) I don't know of any other set that would give you stats that good during TP phase.

[MarkovChain]

Apocalypse is just a common weapon. 10% haste has always been "not game breaking" as anyone could cap haste or get close enough without it. What made apocalypse win parses vs, say, a destroyer BB monk at 75, was it's high dps and good ws - not the haste, even indirectly. If you are pushing buffs in alliance type events like einherjar, everyone caps pdif and accuracy so meh at other stats. If SE want to buff apocalypse they need to give it an unusual stat like ODD or crit rate/damage or something that cannot be capped normally.

[Kimble]

So wait, getting basically 10% free gear haste for WS and allowing you to use more str/attack/da gear during tp phase does nothing to increase your over all damage?

[wish12oz]

So I got Torcleaver today. Inside abyssea on Bluffalo I averaged 1400 on PLD using mithkabobs and stalwarts 95% of the time. I figured it should be much higher than this given it's suppose to have some super attack modifier right? Leveling up to 90, it was much much lower damage too. Could barely hit 1k at lvl 86. (the 1400 is what it averaged after hitting 90)

So I went to check those lame birds, and switched to DRK. Seaboard vulture's switch from no defense on check to low defense on check when you switch from 443 to 444 attack, so as I said, they're really weak. Those numbers you posted were not anything special, and were consistent with what they should be. My first WS on them did 3600 (triple attack lol) And after that they did the same as yours, with slightly less stats than you had, and slightly more attack. You're going to need to provide solid evidence to support your theory of some kind of attack bonus to Torcleaver or I'm calling BS on it.


ALSO:
Twilight mail is junk, p body with triple attack or e body with double attack would be better.

[MarkovChain]

So you lost on the "all relic but one can be better than empy" and try to move the debate onto the dumb pdif boost theory ?

@ Kimble : yes being able to exchange y stats for x stats is barely an advantage in alliance type events. Everyone caps attack/accuracy/fstr so meh. Only the dps, the haste and the quality of the ws matter at this point, pretty much like in abyssea except this time you can cap str and attack solo.

[Chriscoffey]

I think Taint is referring to a Store TP set which in turn gives some better X hit builds if he had finished his sentence.

[Kimble]

So you lost on the "all relic but one can be better than empy" and try to move the debate onto the dumb pdif boost theory ?

@ Kimble : yes being able to exchange y stats for x stats is barely an advantage in alliance type events. Everyone caps attack/accuracy/fstr so meh. Only the dps, the haste and the quality of the ws matter at this point, pretty much like in abyssea except this time you can cap str and attack solo.

You just proved to me you have done nothing outside of abyssea so anything you have to say is moot.

[MarkovChain]

I've done everything outside of abyssea except voidwatch, I know better than you. In alliance fights mobs have dia3 and none are strong enough to have uncapped accuracy.

[Cream_Soda]

except voidwatch
So lv 75 content then?

[wish12oz]

So you lost on the "all relic but one can be better than empy" and try to move the debate onto the dumb pdif boost theory ?


There was no debate about any of the other relics, only great swords, and some kind of pdif boost to torcleaver matters in the context of what we were discussing, so ya, I'm steering the conversation that way, provide solid evidance or stop saying it has one.

[MarkovChain]

So lv 75 content then?

Never heard of dynamis II ?

[MarkovChain]

There was no debate about any of the other relics, only great swords, and some kind of pdif boost to torcleaver matters in the context of what we were discussing, so ya, I'm steering the conversation that way, provide solid evidance or stop saying it has one.

You are only trying to save face. All relics suck right now except the horn and the shield. This is the reality of the game.

[Kimble]

So the only thing you havent done is voidwatch, which is where the game is going in the next update and were you actually need things like acc, attack, etc. yet you know better than I do?

Voidwatch and neo-dyna are things you need acc/attack on. Sorry, you aren't auto capped there, you know nothing.

[Cream_Soda]

Never heard of dynamis II ?
Ok, so one new thing and the rest 75 content, cool.

[Kimble]

hes most likely only doing the EP mobs in those zones anyways and not the newer NMs higher tier mobs.

If he has, then he is just laying cause no way you are easilly capping acc/attack, etc on them.

And id wager to say that Relic blow/gun are the same if not better then their counter parts as far as hate control goes atm.

Dagger is totally better for THF atm.

[Chriscoffey]

You aren't taking into account what someone could be using for their Store TP builds OR their DA/TA rate increases. One set of gear doesn't end all be all in this game without first taking into account everything provided. I personally wouldn't use your set myself and the % increase of Dark AF3 isn't worth using as a full set compared to the other options for DOT damage.

[wish12oz]

You are only trying to save face. All relics suck right now except the horn and the shield. This is the reality of the game.

There are only 5 empyreans which outdamage their relic/mythic counterparts, and only on weak/average difficulty mobs, or inside abyssea, because they are crit based weapon skills, with the 1 exception of Katana. Kannagi is always better. You need to quit ignoring the fact that there are some relics that are better, and even mythics that are better, and stop focusing only on the 5 empyreans that are very good. This is what I have been saying, and will continue saying, I'm not trying to save face or change my story because well, I'm correct. Look at the empyreans you are not mentioning for instance.

Relic scythe is always better, relic club is always better(and mythic club is actually useful for the jobs role, and not just for DDing), relic dagger is always better, relic polearm is always better (than empyrean, and mythic is the best ever at all times) SMN mythic is best, PLD mythic is amazing because it breaks PDT cap, relic shield breaks MDT cap, relic axe is better than empyrean, relic gun is better for rng than empyrean, and relic gun/bow are useful when youre trying to keep mobs from attacking you compared to empyrean bow. There really is not much of a differance between Amano and Masa too, they do just about the same damage with capped acc, but once acc falls below cap Amano wins. Even Bravura can beat Ukon, the absolute best of the empyreans, all it requires is fighting decently difficult mobs, like those found in voidwatch. So anyway, this is me saving face now, cause I'm pointing out that I'm sticking to my original claims or something.... I'm not really sure how that works exactly, but pchan said I was trying to change my story, so it probably wasn't even worth responding to. Sorry if this last paragraph doesn't make much sense.

[MarkovChain]

hes most likely only doing the EP mobs in those zones anyways and not the newer NMs higher tier mobs.

If he has, then he is just laying cause no way you are easilly capping acc/attack, etc on them.

And id wager to say that Relic blow/gun are the same if not better then their counter parts as far as hate control goes atm.

Dagger is totally better for THF atm.

I think you missed the "18 alliance type event" of my post. Oh and while we are at it you do cap acc because grown ups buy food doh.

[MarkovChain]

There are only 5 empyreans which outdamage their relic/mythic counterparts, and only on weak/average difficulty mobs, or inside abyssea, because they are crit based weapon skills, with the 1 exception of Katana. Kannagi is always better. You need to quit ignoring the fact that there are some relics that are better, and even mythics that are better, and stop focusing only on the 5 empyreans that are very good. This is what I have been saying, and will continue saying, I'm not trying to save face or change my story because well, I'm correct. Look at the empyreans you are not mentioning for instance.

Relic scythe is always better, relic club is always better(and mythic club is actually useful for the jobs role, and not just for DDing), relic dagger is always better, relic polearm is always better (than empyrean, and mythic is the best ever at all times) SMN mythic is best, PLD mythic is amazing because it breaks PDT cap, relic shield breaks MDT cap, relic axe is better than empyrean, relic gun is better for rng than empyrean, and relic gun/bow are useful when youre trying to keep mobs from attacking you compared to empyrean bow. There really is not much of a differance between Amano and Masa too, they do just about the same damage with capped acc, but once acc falls below cap Amano wins. Even Bravura can beat Ukon, the absolute best of the empyreans, all it requires is fighting decently difficult mobs, like those found in voidwatch. So anyway, this is me saving face now, cause I'm pointing out that I'm sticking to my original claims or something.... I'm not really sure how that works exactly, but pchan said I was trying to change my story, so it probably wasn't even worth responding to. Sorry if this last paragraph doesn't make much sense.

Yes still no maths and only opinions.

[Kimble]

Yeah but for some of these jobs, they will have to use pizza to cap their acc or get close to cap, while relics because they get +35 acc (2 handers) wont have to so they can use attack food to do better damage.

[Kimble]

Honestly, we all need to just remember. Its Pchan, he likes to fight and be wrong so people will give him attention.

[wish12oz]

Honestly, we all need to just remember. Its Pchan, he likes to fight and be wrong so people will give him attention.

Maybe he's just trying to like, reverse troll, where you intentionally give wrong information so people have to prove you wrong, because then anyone who reads the thread will see how stuff really is?

[MarkovChain]

Yeah but for some of these jobs, they will have to use pizza to cap their acc or get close to cap, while relics because they get +35 acc (2 handers) wont have to so they can use attack food to do better damage.

Not this meat argument again. It is only relevant when both player must cap accuracy as much as they can in every slots. You are also assuming that the empy guy has to use pizza. What is this imaginary event that BG trolls have 50% accuracy on and dont change job to blm lolz. But maybe you two are going to finally align equations ?

[wish12oz]

Not this meat argument again. It is only relevant when both player must cap accuracy as much as they can in every slots. You are also assuming that the empy guy has to use pizza. What is this imaginary event that BG trolls have 50% accuracy on and dont change job to blm lolz. But maybe you two are going to finally align equations ?

It's called Voidwatch, and you need lots of different jobs so you can get procs and actually get drops. BLM army wont get anywhere.

[MarkovChain]

No it is not. If you have 50% hitrate you use sushi.

[Laitha]

Annhilator is better than Armageddon outside abyssea.

Speaking as an Annihilator owner and a possible Future Armagedon owner. I can say That Relic gun is basically the only weapon for rng that allows you to push the dmg limits while maintaining the lowest ammount of enmity generation possible. Sure I really don't understand why it matters durring a brew if your weaponskill does 60K dmg or 8K dmg but I guess if your brew locking or killing several bosses at once it has it's advantages.

I think my annihilator works pretty well inside and outside of abyssea but my main complaint is that the gun is friggen stone cold ugly. I mean come on why does armagedon get to be some cool white dragon bone peace pipe thingy while Annihilator is basically a few graphical tweaks away from a hellfire. I mean it doesn't do my epeen any justice when I don't have the crazy looking weapon swinging at my side like half the ninja's on my server just once I would like my gun to talk and /yell out in a zone other than jeuno that my ranger is the "boomstick". Serriously SE why don't you just augment annihilator to be like scavange+20 inside abyssea or something cuz that would be awesome like mythic crossbow.

Serriously I do think my Annihilator is pretty good since it keeps me alive longer than any other rng I know. My only complaint would be the lack of decent ammo to use with my weapon. Camping the AH to provide ammo for my gun is pretty silly. Granted I can craft the ammo but that isn't as much fun.

[Kimble]

No it is not. If you have 50% hitrate you use sushi.

No it is not what? I have no idea what you are even replying this to, lol. Are you saying people in voidwatch dont have acc issues?

But WAIT you never done voidwatch, how would you know?

[MarkovChain]

You dont have to do voidwatch to have uncapped accuracy for one. For two at 50% hitrate you must use accuracy song(s) and/or use sushi. But wait... I bet you double march and use meat. Also voidwatch has no good drops. Not sure why they released it. I think you do everything wrong tbh.

[wish12oz]

You dont have to do voidwatch to have uncapped accuracy for one. For two at 50% hitrate you must use accuracy song(s) and/or use sushi. But wait... I bet you double march and use meat. Also voidwatch has no good drops. Not sure why they released it. I think you do everything wrong tbh.

There's a +3 march instrument from Voidwatch, Rancor collar is also from voidwatch, and There's a 4 MAB ring, Those 3 items are really amazing and thats completely indisputable. Beyond that the body armors/hats are good depending on job and there's other stuff too that isn't terrible, but you could argue against them.

[Coldbrand]

Yeah man, boy that quad attack neck on 2 handers sure does suck. Let me tell you. And I hate the way Fazuheulo Radiant Mail made 5 hit/haste cap on DRG easier.

[Cream_Soda]

Yeah man, boy that quad attack neck on 2 handers sure does suck. Let me tell you. And I hate the way Fazuheulo Radiant Mail made 5 hit/haste cap on DRG easier.
Don't be silly, mnks don't use staff!

[wish12oz]

Don't be silly, mnks don't use staff!

full usukane mnk 4 lyfe!

[DebbieGibson]

bump



bump

[Atomic_Skull]

Looks like the level 95 relics had the extra damage proc rate increased.

Triple Damage: 5% -> 12%

Double Damage: 5% -> 20%

2.5 damage: somewhere in between, probably 16%.