ATTN: Dev/Comm. Rep -Relic & Mythic Weapons Reborn {Yes, Please}- レリックとミシックの強化

[Dew]

Did people forget how to read now? They said they are going to power up relic's and mythics. They are also going to even out the time/effort in a way to balance all 3 on how hard they are to complete. Point being its not going to happen overnight..... Doesn't matter how much you complain.

[Kiba]

Did people forget how to read now? They said they are going to power up relic's and mythics. They are also going to even out the time/effort in a way to balance all 3 on how hard they are to complete. Point being its not going to happen overnight..... Doesn't matter how much you complain.
Not a matter of forgetting but observing the sequence of responses and actions done since we were told something will be done:
1) 03-25-2011 07:08 AM response from community rep that issue the development team is aware of and adjustments will be made to relic and mythic weapons.
2) 5-9-2011 Version Update. Aegis and Burtgang get updates as well as dynamis changes in currency distribution. Players concerned questioned on adjustments because adjustments were not made to all relics and mythics. We were looking forward to implementation because if its just a simple adjustment to WS damage then it would be very reasonable to expect this done by this update.
3) Followup after version update for two weeks inquiring on plans of implementation and when to expect a time of implementation resulting in no response(post-wise) giving the impression that the response on 3-25-2011 was just an act to entertain and lack of response, ignoring is causing losing of player confidence in believing in word/plans on implementation.

Rewinding back a couple of posts, once again this is all we were asking:
a response like "we understand you are eager to see adjustments made to relic and mythic weapons as we have informed weeks ago. however due to large volume of tasks to complete. This will not be implemented until ???"
Development Team, we understand you have a lot on your plate, but reality was we were expecting the adjustments told to be in Monday's update. If this was not possible at least an update on expected date of implementation would be nice. Please evaluate this concern and understand. thank you.


Lastly
Doesn't matter how much you complain.
I beg to differ with this statement. People complained about the atma menu's updated when update notes said this was not done on time. Result was it was implemented shortly after. Point comes down even in several responses of this thread- If players ask nicely there should be a common courtesy to respond and not leave us in the dark like they don't care. I can understand it can take time with so many threads and posts to review, but two weeks? c'mon....

[Dew]

Just need to wait patiently. Sooner or later they will post about it or make a dev topic. Patience is key to everything.

[Denabond]

Kiba does have a point about how continuously complaining about it will probably get some response from the devs sooner. If the devs simply say "Fk off we will do it eventually", it reassures as that they are still thinking about it. Having them not saying anything for awhile now makes most of the relic/mythic users worried that they might have forgotten (since there is a ton of other complaints out there). I will also say though that the relic/mythic users should be patient. If they still don't say anything after 2-3 months, then i would be really worried.

[wish12oz]

Dude, nobody cares about fractions and barely noticeable percentages. Just make them equally powerful AND with different stats, then for every situation that arises one will slightly top the other (key word being SLIGHTLY).

If they have different stats they cannot be equally powerful, and you are the only one who does not care about being good. I will illustrate my point by using your example of 'all the NINs with Kannagi' Thats right, they all have Kannagi, not kikoku or the thing thats so useless I don't even bother to remember the name, they have Kannagi, because Kannagi is good, and the other 2 are bad. No matter how small the difference between them, one will mathematically beat the others, and that will be the one people try to get. Then we will see more complaints by you worded slightly differently expressing the same problem. You need to just get over it, and deal with the fact that people like being good and useful more then they like being special little flowers.

[Malacite]

What I fail to understand is why Relics and especially Mythics are so much harder to obtain, despite being inferior to Empyreans by & Large with a few exceptions.


The recent changes to Dynamis are likely to reduce the flow of currency, not increase it given that you are now required to farm NMs for any decent amount of money. Now depending on your set up this can work in some group's favor but I would wager it's not helping the majority of players. Some of the relics are still worth getting, but they need to be upgraded through the trials (some of which are just horrendously tedious/monotonous) before they can even compare.

Compared to an Empyrean which is basically just a lot of NM camping and once you have the 85 version they turn into real beasts (some more so than others, like Ukonvasara) with their unique WS and double-damage aftermath.

It's more ludicrous for Mythics given that at least relics can be circumvented by buying up currency. There's no shortcut to mythics save for the Alexandrites - You still have to do the 3 kings, ZNMs, Assault, Nyzule Isle 100 for Runic Key, Salvage, Captain Rank, finish the Aht Urhgan story, beat Odin and rack up 100,000 ichor... and of course you need Assault Points to do Salvage which directly conflicts with Nyzule Isle.

Plus, even upgraded, there's maybe a handful of the mythics that are even worth getting - WHM PUP DNC (debatable in light of its recent job adjustments) COR (again debatable given how good the Empyrean Gun is) & SMN. Burtgang is sadly still little more than fancy trash for any PLD with an Ochain, unless we start seeing more NMs that deal absurd physical damage that can't be blocked.

In fact the only Relic I'd really even consider getting at this point personally is Yochinoyumi for SAM just as another potent skillchain option since SAM can't use Gandiva or Harrier. Aegis is something of a novelty I suppose as well for anything that uses a lot of highly dangerous magic, but the only NMs that come to mind that would warrant this are AV & PW.

So what's the dev team planning on doing? As long as it doesn't involving nerfing Empyreans in some way.

[Coldbrand]

Posting this here too since I think it's important to note even some Empyrean weapons are hurting:

I'd love if they were achieved by a combination of relics mythics and empyrean WSs (or maybe add this as an even higher secret level of SCs so that all players have something new at least at 99). Also, while I managed to get a post close to your attention I know you're looking into tweaking relic WSs, can you please look into Camlann's Torment? I don't think it's right that drakesbane should be better than the empyrean WS, I think mythic and even some empyrean WSs should also be reviewed for buffs.

I had the idea of Camlann's ignoring 50 at 100, 75 at 200, and 100% defense at 300 TP. Keep in mind, Wheeling Thrust already does what I said by ignoring half defense, so I really think it's absurd a weapon as big of a pain to obtain as this thing is (CHLORIS) is getting beat by a normal WS with the same description (in the sense that Camlann's only ingores 10%), and is crushed in damage by the WS we'd already been using forever (Drakesbane).

Really, WSs that stay the same across all levels should go away and offer some kind of rewards for stepping it up. Especially mythic/empyrean ones that you have to build up to 300% for aftermaths.

I really hope I can get a response on this. I don't see why only relic owners should be on the receiving end of buffs, not every empyrean is almace or ukonvasara. And I KNOW many mythics need serious tweaking. An extremely easy starting point for fixing these WSs is just look at which crit and which don't, most that don't probably might need some love, and most that do are the standard for the current metagame.

One last note, we all love Razed Ruins and this isn't an issue related to that nor am I looking for anything to be done to the Atma. Camlann's gets beat by Drakes outside Abyssea too.

[Malacite]

It's not just CT, but Rudra's Storm is also fairly weak unless you use either Sneak Attack to force a critical. This really makes the Dagger only ideal for THF, as BRD would be much better served with Mandau for damage and Trepsichore for DNC.


I'm quite honestly surprised that neither Quietus nor Torcleaver crit as well, given that one of DRK's major issues is a lack of a good critical hit weaponskill (it's also what's killing SAM at the moment).

[Atomic_Skull]

Given that they have actually increased the difficulty of upgrading a Relic with the current dynamis changes, Relic WS should be altered in the following way in order to make them worth the effort.

They should add Critical hit rate+25% and "Increases maximum enmity" to Aegis.

Additional damage proc on relics should be increased from the current 5% to 20%

All Relic WS should be changed to fTP 4.0/5.5/6.5 at 100/200/300% TP and deal automatic critical damage. All relics should ignore 50% of cRatio on both WS and melee hits.

All relic WS should deal the same number of hits as depicted in the WS. This means:

1H: 4 hits

2H: 1 hit (except for Polearm which is 2 hits)

1 hit on 2H and 4 hit on 1H will balance out due to lower base DMG on 1H weapons. It might be necessary to lower the fTP on Polearm due to it being a 2 hit WS on a 2H weapon to keep it's damage balanced with other relics.

[Denabond]

Given that they have actually increased the difficulty of upgrading a Relic with the current dynamis changes, Relic WS should be altered in the following way in order to make them worth the effort.

They should add Critical hit rate+25% and "Increases maximum enmity" to Aegis.

Additional damage proc on relics should be increased from the current 5% to 20%

All Relic WS should be changed to fTP 4.0/5.5/6.5 at 100/200/300% TP and deal automatic critical damage. All relics should ignore 50% of cRatio on both WS and melee hits.

All relic WS should deal the same number of hits as depicted in the WS. This means:

1H: 4 hits

2H: 1 hit (except for Polearm which is 2 hits)

1 hit on 2H and 4 hit on 1H will balance out due to lower base DMG on 1H weapons. It might be necessary to lower the fTP on Polearm due to it being a 2 hit WS on a 2H weapon to keep it's damage balanced with other relics.
It is worth mentioning that not all 1H weapons have animations that does 4 hits. I think Knights of Round is 2 hit, while Final Heaven is only 1 hit. Also another thing about Spharai that the dev team NEEDS to fix is that Spharai can only proc its hidden effect (the 2.5 damage multiplier) on only its First hit. It will NEVER proc on the 2nd.
Edit: Correction, Knights of Round is only a 1 hit WS too animation wise.

[Bumbeen]

They aren't going to even the difficulty of relics and mythics to be the same as emp. If you read the post it says relics and mythics difficulty to obtain will be balanced, emp was not mentioned. It is likely then that their intention is to buff relic and mythic to be stronger than emp and either make mythic easier to obtain or relic more difficult(of course if they succeed is a different story). I would personally prefer them to make mythic easier to obtain. I am currently working on spharai, so I hope they do not make relics more difficult.

[Kiba]

They aren't going to even the difficulty of relics and mythics to be the same as emp. If you read the post it says relics and mythics difficulty to obtain will be balanced, emp was not mentioned. It is likely then that their intention is to buff relic and mythic to be stronger than emp and either make mythic easier to obtain or relic more difficult(of course if they succeed is a different story). I would personally prefer them to make mythic easier to obtain. I am currently working on spharai, so I hope they do not make relics more difficult.

One can really hope such plans are in place. But even so without a response to keep the playerbase informed it is all just wishful thinking.

So before a new thread is opened titled
"Known Issues: Relic & Mythic Weapon Adjustments "Delayed" again?! /sulk More info if any if you PLEASE!"
can we kindly have an update on plans for adjustments please? Once again, a lot of players expected this
to happen in the 5/9 update, only ending in disappointment. An ETA on when this is planned would be
much appreciated. Thank you /bow

[Kimble]

Why did you expect it to happen on the 5/9 update when they never said they would. It takes time to test things and make sure they dont overpower something. The ageis-burtgang thing was a nice start that NO one expected.

[Glamdring]

They said relic was made easier in last update 5/9 (presumably they meant you could get currency faster because you can enter more? and your NM doesn't warp out now). Mythic was goint to happen in a later update, just looking for the date please... oh, and a method of obtaining that doesn't require me to shackle an entire LS to my bidding for 1+years for my sole benefit.

[Sama]

They said relic was made easier in last update 5/9 (presumably they meant you could get currency faster because you can enter more? and your NM doesn't warp out now). Mythic was goint to happen in a later update, just looking for the date please... oh, and a method of obtaining that doesn't require me to shackle an entire LS to my bidding for 1+years for my sole benefit.

I think we all misunderstood the DEV's plan: dynamis-reborn will only leads to harder coin drop because of the triggering and you have shorter player time, also dyna requires no entrance fee, every n00b and vet now goes, the drop rate, of course you are aware of now, it's actually lower for each of your run. SE did a good job on the 'distribution' to even out the drop to everyone but not increasing the total number of coin drop.

I already saw single bills tag at 12k+; how is that suppose to make it easier?

Dynamis-reborn will eventually forced all relic-maker go farm coins which is going to take you this long:

Example: Annihilator
Total 100 piece: 182
Assuming you get 60 coins/bills each run and 5 times a week: that's 60 weeks, or 1.15 year. 100 piece will speed up the process but after 10-12 runs i have not seen one not even DL.

While this is in place, relic will just be harder to get unless you go after RMT selling your car/house for gil to buy coins.

And because of that, the total number of relics being completed will be so little that SE can considered it insignificant, if that's the case, why they will do it to favor only a little group of sore players?

I really hope I'm wrong tho.

[Glamdring]

you'll notice I was careful to never say the change WORKED...

[Kiba]

Why did you expect it to happen on the 5/9 update when they never said they would. It takes time to test things and make sure they dont overpower something. The ageis-burtgang thing was a nice start that NO one expected.
Two months to just adjust WS dmg factors and period of testing sounds reasonable to me. Like I said before unless the plans are to revamp all weapons including aftermath the expectation was not unreasonable.Let me reiterate balance fix issues should be more immediate than new additions. But point comes down even if it takes more time what's the problem with responding? Only case would be the cake was just a lie and the response in March was just to entertain.

Lets review the most recent response for a thread that has gotten responses multiple times:
Just to give you all a bit more insight into what the development team has planned:
Honestly why can't we have this in this thread? The only explanation would be that they are ignoring and dodging inquiries and don't care.

[Sama]

you'll notice I was careful to never say the change WORKED...

Right and unfortunately this already happened /cry

[Kimble]

Two months to just adjust WS dmg factors and period of testing sounds reasonable to me. Like I said before unless the plans are to revamp all weapons including aftermath the expectation was not unreasonable.Let me reiterate balance fix issues should be more immediate than new additions. But point comes down even if it takes more time what's the problem with responding? Only case would be the cake was just a lie and the response in March was just to entertain.

Lets review the most recent response for a thread that has gotten responses multiple times:
Just to give you all a bit more insight into what the development team has planned:
Honestly why can't we have this in this thread? The only explanation would be that they are ignoring and dodging inquiries and don't care.

Ever heard of no news is good news? They most likely havent responded because there is simply nothing to update unless you just want to hear "We are still currently working on this"

[Kiba]

Ever heard of no news is good news? They most likely havent responded because there is simply nothing to update unless you just want to hear "We are still currently working on this"
Exactly, just a status and insight on plans as well as expected time of implementation would be appreciated.

[Unctgtg]

I agree with you 100% Kiba.

[DrStrangelove]

Why did you expect it to happen on the 5/9 update when they never said they would. It takes time to test things and make sure they dont overpower something. The ageis-burtgang thing was a nice start that NO one expected.

I think you and others might be assuming that SE became aware that there was a problem in late March 2011. That would be false. I also think this needs to be reviewed in terms that an update has already happened and a new one is not planned for weeks.

These weapons were known to be drastically different at least as early September. There are dozens if not hundreds of posts to this effect on Alla, BG and other sites that made this clear. Moreover, I assume that many relic owners were posting email complaints to SE last year.

The announcement in March was the first public admission that they were aware of this. That it was posted without having already made significant headway on a plan to fix is now obvious. And having not made the correction on 5/9, it's reasonable that no change will occur before mid June at the earliest.

In short, there has a lot of time to make a change to this issue and the lack of a mere update or time schedule makes it appear there is no imminent solution or being repeatedly replaced by newer projects.

Let's hope we are wrong and that we'll see it is planned to be part of the June update.

[Bumbeen]

While I do agree they could throw us a bone about some time frames. I think it's pretty obvious they are working on it. I also think it's going to take longer than many posting here are thinking.

[Unctgtg]

While I do agree they could throw us a bone about some time frames. I think it's pretty obvious they are working on it. I also think it's going to take longer than many posting here are thinking.

Or completely ignoring us and hoping we will go away. I am standing firm with my 18 months of my life I did to get my Apoc, and another 6 months doing the REAL 9500 Mobs for the trials, before the changed it.

[Akujima]

If they have different stats they cannot be equally powerful, and you are the only one who does not care about being good. I will illustrate my point by using your example of 'all the NINs with Kannagi' Thats right, they all have Kannagi, not kikoku or the thing thats so useless I don't even bother to remember the name, they have Kannagi, because Kannagi is good, and the other 2 are bad. No matter how small the difference between them, one will mathematically beat the others, and that will be the one people try to get. Then we will see more complaints by you worded slightly differently expressing the same problem. You need to just get over it, and deal with the fact that people like being good and useful more then they like being special little flowers.


No, duh? People know this $#!% already. Why do you think they're making threads like these and asking for adjustments to Relic/Mythic? The idea here IS to make them balanced. You're just spewing stuff people already know and acting like you're smarter than everyone else, because you think they don't know anything.

Why the hell would I make an "Improve Sange, Improve Throwing" thread, if I already thought Throwing and Sange was good?


Ohh, uhh, errmmm. Yea, you can't answer that last question, because its irrefutable. So take a seat.

[Kiba]

I think you and others might be assuming that SE became aware that there was a problem in late March 2011. That would be false. I also think this needs to be reviewed in terms that an update has already happened and a new one is not planned for weeks.

These weapons were known to be drastically different at least as early September. There are dozens if not hundreds of posts to this effect on Alla, BG and other sites that made this clear. Moreover, I assume that many relic owners were posting email complaints to SE last year.

The announcement in March was the first public admission that they were aware of this. That it was posted without having already made significant headway on a plan to fix is now obvious. And having not made the correction on 5/9, it's reasonable that no change will occur before mid June at the earliest.

In short, there has a lot of time to make a change to this issue and the lack of a mere update or time schedule makes it appear there is no imminent solution or being repeatedly replaced by newer projects.

Let's hope we are wrong and that we'll see it is planned to be part of the June update.
I agree from what you saying that it is factual that the issue was known for a long time. I remember before forums were up it was also raised up from both EN/JP players on Twitter. I just think its wrong to recognize an issue and put it behind things implemented. Like I said previously fixes should be immediate and addressed during short term maintenances.

[Bumbeen]

They aren't going to even the difficulty of relics and mythics to be the same as emp. If you read the post it says relics and mythics difficulty to obtain will be balanced, emp was not mentioned. It is likely then that their intention is to buff relic and mythic to be stronger than emp and either make mythic easier to obtain or relic more difficult(of course if they succeed is a different story). I would personally prefer them to make mythic easier to obtain. I am currently working on spharai, so I hope they do not make relics more difficult.

I think I can see how the post might have read they are going to even out relic mythic and emp.


Along with that, we are also planning to make adjustments to both the time and cost required to create and strengthen Relic and Mythic weapons. Eventually, we would like to even out the differences in the amount of time required to create and strengthen these weapons.

Do you think "weapons", the last word in the quote, is referring to Relic and Mythic and empyrean? Or just Relic and Mythic. The sentence prior says adjustments to time and cost required .... relic and mythic, so that would lead you to believe relic and mythic only. I wish they would clarify as I would hate to trade a 10,000 piece and then a week later you only need 1000.

[Secondplanet]

i personally don't understand why players who have relic's want them updated, RPG's were formed on the basis that you get the best and over the next level's you have to get the best again, but that is just my opinion.

What i'm going at is the fact that SE knows there is a large and sometimes gaining in number of issues they need to work out to fix the game and bring balance back to the force.... erm.... i mean FF:XI. I think the rushed the level caps at a rate that was too fast for them to compensate between caps. While some jobs have become legends in their own others get the cold shoulder in the name of balance.

I personally don't see SE making relic's/mythic's the best anymore since they were made for old content but i do see them allowing you to upgrade their powers to be on par with newer gear. I don't want to start any fights/arguments but this is how i see SE is walking at the moment.

[Atomic_Skull]

i personally don't understand why players who have relic's want them updated


I think it has something to do with Relics and Mythics taking years to upgrade while Empyreans take a week or less.

[Unctgtg]

I think it has something to do with Relics and Mythics taking years to upgrade while Empyreans take a week or less.

Agreed, and actually get a good group and you can do them in a two days now that is emp.

[Unctgtg]

Hey admins when are you going to address this issue.

[Malacite]

Honestly? I wouldn't hold my breath.

I'm sure they're thinking of something, and I hate to rag on the new Dev Team because they are doing a FANTASTIC job with the game thus far - but the recent dynamis change & addition of KI's to gold boxes in Abyssea, have been less than encouraging to me.

[Bumbeen]

Currently the development team is not looking at adjusting the amount of alexandrite needed, nor are they looking into increasing the methods by which alexandrite can be obtained. However, they will be making improvements and adjustments in order to rejuvenate salvage, assault, and other Treasures of Aht Urghan content.

I will take that to mean they also aren't going to reduce the currency cost of relics either.

[Sama]

I will take that to mean they also aren't going to reduce the currency cost of relics either.

May be not; but now you don't have to pay to go to dyna and you can solo as much as you want 2 hours a day 7 days a week to get your coins instead of going twice a week and your ls leader will take all of them for his 8th relic which he still don't have a job to use.

[Kimble]

Honestly? I wouldn't hold my breath.

I'm sure they're thinking of something, and I hate to rag on the new Dev Team because they are doing a FANTASTIC job with the game thus far - but the recent dynamis change & addition of KI's to gold boxes in Abyssea, have been less than encouraging to me.

Uh, how was adding sought after KIs to gold boxes a bad thing at all? lol

[Kiba]

ATTN: Developers - A Polite Request regarding Adustments to Relic & Mythic Weapons ^^
when can we expect the implementation? It was addressed and a response was received by you
in mid March now we are 2.5 months ever since wondering if you still remember since it was not in 5/9 update
please kindly respond onegaishimasu m____m

[Atomic_Skull]

SE stated that there are no plans to make Alexandrite more available and no plans to lower the cost of a Mythic.

SE also stated that they plan to balance the difficulty of creating Mythics and Relics.

Therefor SE plans to increase the difficulty of creating a Relic.



@ the people who insisted that SE meant balancing relics, mythics, and empyreans: Do you really want them to mean that now? Because in light of SE's most recent statement that means greatly increasing the difficulty of empyreans.

[Dart]

just to troll a little, that doesn't bother me. I've made the 3 empy that I wanted! :o

[wish12oz]

Did you ever see that kid who whines for something in the store, and their parents tell them no and to stop whining, then they keep whining and whining and whining. I always wondered why their parent didn't just spank them and tell them to stop, and wished I could do it myself so they shut up.

[Bumbeen]

Did you ever see that kid who whines for something in the store, and their parents tell them no and to stop whining, then they keep whining and whining and whining. I always wondered why their parent didn't just spank them and tell them to stop, and wished I could do it myself so they shut up.

I forget which side you're on again. Are you for relics/mythics getting a buff or against?

[wish12oz]

I forget which side you're on again. Are you for relics/mythics getting a buff or against?

I'm on the "Stop making 50 million threads about it, and bumping this crap for 2 months, SE said they will fix it so have some patience and wait til 99" side. Which also means I don't care either way, just tired of the incessant whining and incorrect information in all of these threads. Whatever ends up being superior, if it is significant I will go get it, so it doesn't affect me.

I'm also on the side of "Only 5 empyreans are better then their mythic or relic counterparts, and only from a DPS standpoint, and their counterparts have uses as well, they just don't do more DPS" side of the argument, and think people are stupid to make blanket statements about how empyreans are overpowered and relics suck. Most relics and mythics are actually superior to or on par with the empyreans of the same type. There is only 5 which are just better, Great axe, H2H, Katana, Bow and Sword and their only superior if all you're looking at is DPS. And RNG is just terrible so it doesn't matter, and Sword is only better for weak mobs over Burt or Excal.

[Kiba]

Did you ever see that kid who whines for something in the store, and their parents tell them no and to stop whining, then they keep whining and whining and whining. I always wondered why their parent didn't just spank them and tell them to stop, and wished I could do it myself so they shut up.
If you're trying to give an analogy then the difference is the parent here is not even saying no and has not been saying anything for 2.5 months. And if you really don't care just ignore the threads and posts. Making a debate and argument in these forums is pointless. Whether right or wrong will not affect the outcome of what the development team decides. So if you do not support I as well as many would appreciate not going off topic on what the purpose of this thread was for.

[Vold]

I forget which side you're on again. Are you for relics/mythics getting a buff or against?I'm on the side of please let it go already. It's clear they are caving to all the complaining to shut people up with the quick two changes they did last thing to burt/aegis with the last update. That is obviously going to continue with following updates. Mission accomplished. You've got them to act sooner than later. Can this thread DIE ALREADY? They said they are working on it. What more do people want? A first class ticket to Japan where you can supervise the damn work day in and out until it is completed?

"Hey, hey. No. Wait. I want to see better on that Excalibur. Try again. Or else I'll QUIT."


I'm very very pro making relics and mythics high above Empyreans for power....outside of Abyssea. The quests for those things are insane. They deserved far better since day 1 because they designed them around content instead of what they should have done, which was design content around them. That meant you did all of that work for essentially a gimp weapon that did not have the power to justify the amount of work required to obtain them. At the end of the day these weapons should run circles around Empyreans and eventually will. My problem with this whole relic business is that you people, self proclaimed experts of the game who look down on "noobs" like you're a somebody, completely and utterly failing hardcore with logic and understanding of what's going on with the ultimate weapons of this game, essentially turning into what you hate most, which is NOOBS. I I I. ME ME ME. NOW NOW NOW.

Have patience. Wait. In time, one day, once again, you'll be able to strut around with your relic weapon proclaiming #1. You will rejoice. The rest of us won't have to hear your whining anymore. We will rejoice. Everyone will win on this day. Life will go on. We will move on. Roses will fall from the heavens, and everyone will be at peace. Until that day, I speak for the masses when I say this: Take 5 for a breather. That's 5 months, not 5 minutes.

But we know already that isn't going to happen, now is it? People will feel compelled to remind SE just in case they FORGET, which they won't, about adjusting relic and mythics. And we're going to be doomed for the next 3 months with these threads by people who seriously believe SE is oblivious to the situation they created, as if it wasn't their intent from day 1 to give players something to do in a time where no big additions are planned post Abyssea and they need to buy time to check on it for who knows how long because they got like 3 people working on this game right now since everyone else is on FFXIV to try to save it. They can't and won't put down everything they are doing to give you stronger weapons. But they are working on it. Learn to have patience.

[Bumbeen]

Well I think it's already obvious they are adjusting them. They already did aegis and burtgang like you said. I think people are greatly overestimating the ease at which these adjustments can be made. They clearly want to do it right the first time so they aren't going back and changing it again later needlessly.

I personally am more interested in the quest to obtain relics, as I am afraid of finishing mine and then two weeks later having it be 10x easier to complete. They stated they aren't reducing the cost of alexandrite for mythics, I wish they would come out and say for sure one way or the other for relics as well.

[Kiba]

I'm on the side of please let it go already. It's clear they are caving to all the complaining to shut people up with the quick two changes they did last thing to burt/aegis with the last update. That is obviously going to continue with following updates. Mission accomplished. You've got them to act sooner than later. Can this thread DIE ALREADY? They said they are working on it. What more do people want? A first class ticket to Japan where you can supervise the damn work day in and out until it is completed?

But we know already that isn't going to happen, now is it? People will feel compelled to remind SE just in case they FORGET, which they won't, about adjusting relic and mythics. And we're going to be doomed for the next 3 months with these threads by people who seriously believe SE is oblivious to the situation they created, as if it wasn't their intent from day 1 to give players something to do in a time where no big additions are planned post Abyssea and they need to buy time to check on it for who knows how long because they got like 3 people working on this game right now since everyone else is on FFXIV to try to save it. They can't and won't put down everything they are doing to give you stronger weapons. But they are working on it. Learn to have patience.
At this point really there is no clear indicator that there is anything planned or being worked on. That is the problem. The only thing that was said was "we recognize the issue and have plan to make adjustments". But really....what are the plans and when will the plans become reality? That's where we stand right now. About aegis/burtgang updates the fact that that was done with no explanation if those were the only plans puts everyone concerned about this in a limbo.

I'd like to formally apologize to everyone who feels annoyed by complaints and continuous follow ups demanding attention, however please understand that is the only thing we can do. I still do not understand to this point why other threads complain and get attention and we can't. In fact for those cases there were multiple threads open as opposed to ever since this thread was open we have not opened another thread. If you look on the first post, it was a compilation to alleviate that purpose. Either way if you do not like this thread or post just ignore, no one is forcing people to read. That is what the community reps are supposed to do to bring to the development team's attention and it seems there has been a deterioration on efficiency of this job function in reviewing posts.

And talking about patience, if 2.5 months was not considered long I don't know what else to call as patience. In fact the issue was addressed long before to even account the patience factor into.

I as well as others concerned about this are not expecting the development to drop what they are doing to work on this, but really....is it so hard to keep players informed? Once again inquiring is the only thing we can do until we get the proper information that is not being shared about the plans for adjustments.

[Kimble]

Like I told you before, They said they were going to work on it. There is NOTHING to suggest they are no longer doing so.

You also need to realize that the next update, we will have 95 cap, which means new trials for Relic/Mythic and yes, Empys. They have a lot on their plate right now, and its all a balancing act. Whats the point of doing the relic/mythic part now, if lets say, they do something for empys at 95 that makes them "better" again.

Burtgang and Aegis were the easiest one to adjust, which is why it was most likely done first.

[Kiba]

Like I told you before, They said they were going to work on it. There is NOTHING to suggest they are no longer doing so.

You also need to realize that the next update, we will have 95 cap, which means new trials for Relic/Mythic and yes, Empys. They have a lot on their plate right now, and its all a balancing act. Whats the point of doing the relic/mythic part now, if lets say, they do something for empys at 95 that makes them "better" again.

Burtgang and Aegis were the easiest one to adjust, which is why it was most likely done first.

All are just assumptions and predictions. None that can be relied on until concrete information is presented. When balancing is done it makes more sense to make it noticable across levels:
lvl 85 emp relic mythic up since lvl 80 emps don't have ws's yet.
So that is no reason to postpone. Unless the next magian upgrade will be drastic like a complete weapon benefit revamp it is reasonable to expect balance applied from the current levels.

[Kimble]

Well, you guys crying that SE has gone back on their word and are no longer going to adjust relics is "All are just assumptions and predictions."

[Kiba]

Well, you guys crying that SE has gone back on their word and are no longer going to adjust relics is "All are just assumptions and predictions."
Complaining does not necessarily require crying or whining. But, yes with lack of response and keeping players informed it is indeed creating a doubt and loss of confidence in their word on making adjustments.

[Bumbeen]

Complaining does not necessarily require crying or whining. But, yes with lack of response and keeping players informed it is indeed creating a doubt and loss of confidence in their word on making adjustments.

Do you seriously think they would post here and say they are going to fix it, follow through by adjusting aegis and burtgang, and then just leave the rest as they are?

If you have a relic you've been playing for a while. This is still SE we're talking about...

[Potpressure]

I'm sorry to bring this up because I doubt this effects that many people. But this seems a little unbalanced. Since the update the Lv.85-90 Relic weapon trial has become a lot more easy and faster to complete. While Lv.85-90 Mythic weapon trials are still very time consuming. You see, now that dynamis NMs like those needed for the relic trial are spawn NMs now, this trial can be done as part of a 2 hour dynamis run. But with the Mythic weapon trials you need to kill T4 ZNM three times. With only being able to trade 10 pics a game day to the NPC for Zeni. It takes 27 NMs in total for the 3 T4's needed. That's a minimum of 54,000 Zeni and a maximum of 162,000. With the average pic giving about 60 Zeni, that's 900 pics, 90 hours to trade them all or 3 days and 18 hours minimum! Than the 4,000~10,000 Zeni needed for the T4's and 500 Zeni for each person helping to access the island. Also since ZNM is something people don't do as much, less people have Zeni. Making the zeni farming fall on the trial holder. If you are not lucky enough to have friend with zeni to help pop all this stuff and hold trophies and key items. This takes even longer since you can only hold one pop item, trophy, or key item at a time. Needing to continue going from the NM spawn to the NPC to get another pop item and trade trophy than back to the spawn. I know it has been said that they will be making improvements and adjustments in order to rejuvenate salvage, assault, and other Treasures of Aht Urghan content. I just wanted to make sure this was not overlooked.
Thank You!
Potpressure from Odin!

[blowfin]

SE stated that there are no plans to make Alexandrite more available and no plans to lower the cost of a Mythic.

SE also stated that they plan to balance the difficulty of creating Mythics and Relics.

Therefor SE plans to increase the difficulty of creating a Relic.

They didn`t say anything remotely resembling the last line.


Along with that, we are also planning to make an adjustment on both time and cost required to create and strengthen these weapons.
Eventually, we would like to even out the difference on time required to create and strengthen these weapons.

If anything from that statement, they plan to balance out acquiring Mythics and Relics to be more in line with Empyrean. i.e Easier to obtain.

[Bumbeen]

If anything from that statement, they plan to balance out acquiring Mythics and Relics to be more in line with Empyrean. i.e Easier to obtain.

I think it's clear, due to the latest info about alex cost not being reduced, that they were only talking about relics and mythics in that statement.

[blowfin]

I think it's clear, due to the latest info about alex cost not being reduced, that they were only talking about relics and mythics in that statement.

See full statement below, you`re incorrect.


We are aware that there currently exists a major difference between the strength of Empyrean weapons and that of Relic and Mythic weapons.

In regards to that balance issue, we are planning to make adjustments. We plan to create a higher level of balance by strengthening both Relic and Mythic weapons instead of simply weakening Empyrean weapons.

Along with that, we are also planning to make adjustments to both the time and cost required to create and strengthen Relic and Mythic weapons. Eventually, we would like to even out the differences in the amount of time required to create and strengthen these weapons.

[Bumbeen]

You said balance out acquiring mythics and relics to be in line with empyrean.

The only information in that post about acquiring weapons is the last paragraph which states:

Along with that, we are also planning to make adjustments to both the time and cost required to create and strengthen Relic and Mythic weapons. Eventually, we would like to even out the differences in the amount of time required to create and strengthen these weapons.

1)Empyrean weapons are not mentioned

2)They recently said they are not reducing the alex cost of mythics, which are the biggest cockblock for acquiring one. So this leads us to believe that when they said "we would like to even out the differences in the amount of time required to create and strengthen these weapons", weapons is only referring to mythics and relics, not empyreans.

Or are you suggesting that they are going to make empyreans as difficult to acquire as mythics?

[blowfin]

1)Empyrean weapons are not mentioned

Empyrean weapons are quite clearly mentioned in the first paragraph of the statement. The statement was a direct response to people`s concerns about Empys being way easier to get than Mythic and Relic.

They also followed up with:
- In regards to that balance issue (the one mentioned in the first paragraph)
- Along with that (referring back to the second paragraph, inclusive of the first: see above)

Anyway, that fact is that they`ve already stated they intend to have more Dynamis currency in circulation, which is a step towards making Relics easier to obtain, not harder. Unless you want to dispute what they openly stated there too.

[Bumbeen]

You said balance out acquiring mythics and relics to be in line with empyrean.

The only information in that post about acquiring weapons is the last paragraph which states:


Along with that, we are also planning to make adjustments to both the time and cost required to create and strengthen Relic and Mythic weapons. Eventually, we would like to even out the differences in the amount of time required to create and strengthen these weapons.

1)Empyrean weapons are not mentioned in the last paragraph where it talks about acquisition.

2)They recently said they are not reducing the alex cost of mythics, which are the biggest cockblock for acquiring one. So this leads us to believe that when they said "we would like to even out the differences in the amount of time required to create and strengthen these weapons", weapons is only referring to mythics and relics, not empyreans.

Or are you suggesting that they are going to make empyreans as difficult to acquire as mythics?

Please reread the emphasized parts in my reply to you.

[blowfin]

Please reread the emphasized parts in my reply to you.

I did, you`re still wrong. The whole statement is about Empys vs. Relics/Mythics. You can`t just disassociate the last paragraph for the purposes of proving a point...

Lord knows why you`d want to think they intend to make relics harder anyway.

Anyway, I`m done with this apart from coming back in a year and saying `I told you so`.

[Bumbeen]

I did, you`re still wrong. The whole statement is about Empys vs. Relics/Mythics. You can`t just disassociate the last paragraph for the purposes of proving a point...

Lord knows why you`d want to think they intend to make relics harder anyway.

Anyway, I`m done with this apart from coming back in a year and saying `I told you so`.

It doesn't appear to me that the last paragraph is referring to empyrean weapons. Since the sentence before that referred only to mythics and relics. The earlier paragraph referring to empyreans was not talking about acquisition, only about the strength of the weapons.

This interpretation is strengthened by the fact that they said they are not going to reduce the alex cost of mythic weapons. If we do believe that they are going to do what they say about mythics, and leave the current alex cost in place, and also believe that "weapons" in the last paragraph was referring to empyrean weapons as well as relics and mythics, then that means the acquisition of empyrean weapons must greatly increase in difficulty to match that of mythics.

Since I find it highly unlikely that they are going to increase the difficulty to acquire empyreans to match that of mythics, I am inclined to believe that "weapons" as they stated in the last paragraph, is only referring to mythics and relics.

[Kiba]

Do you seriously think they would post here and say they are going to fix it, follow through by adjusting aegis and burtgang, and then just leave the rest as they are?

If you have a relic you've been playing for a while. This is still SE we're talking about...
Although the term ninja fix is used on changes done silently I think also fits this situation. With the lack of insight on providing information and continuous ignoring of inquiries I seriously am doubtful. And I'm sure many others like me feel the same. It may be that the excuse will be "we fixed aegis and burtgang" that should count for ALL relics and mythics and players should already assume these are the adjustment we said we'll do. Once again this is an assumption and guess, not concrete at all. The fact is that no update notes said anything about "this is the first part of our adjustments on relic and mythic weapons. more adjustments will be expected by [this future version update]. And because of this players concerned about this are lost, asking "was that it?" But if that really is a case, a poorly half done job was done and is pathetic.

Many mistakes have been done over the years and have been buried over time through improvements in development. So my trust and faith has not been absolute. Point comes down if they want us to believe they are working on this then it should not be difficult just to respond and provide information. It is truly disappointing every other day a new set of responses but none on this when several have inquired around time community reps are posting.

[Atomic_Skull]

This interpretation is strengthened by the fact that they said they are not going to reduce the alex cost of mythic weapons. If we do believe that they are going to do what they say about mythics, and leave the current alex cost in place, and also believe that "weapons" in the last paragraph was referring to empyrean weapons as well as relics and mythics, then that means the acquisition of empyrean weapons must greatly increase in difficulty to match that of mythics.

Since I find it highly unlikely that they are going to increase the difficulty to acquire empyreans to match that of mythics, I am inclined to believe that "weapons" as they stated in the last paragraph, is only referring to mythics and relics.


It's quite possible that the next two stages on Empyrean weapons may be greatly increased in difficulty.

[Unctgtg]

Yes that may be true but I have a feeling that we will be getting quite a few fragments. Wish SE would answer us already.

[Unctgtg]

Hey SE come on already.

[Kiba]

[dev1016] Relic & Mythic Weapon Adjustments Scheduled for When ^^?

[Sama]

It's quite possible that the next two stages on Empyrean weapons may be greatly increased in difficulty.

That I don't think so.

The reason is that Aby is the big sale for FFXI and from all other relative updates (multiple ???) you can tell SE wants to keep it this way, and because so many n00n got emp wpn now if they bump up the difficulties upgrading they will probably destroy this forum in a day.

[Kiba]

Okay, [dev1016] became Grounds of Valor Adjustments ^^;

[dev1017] Relic & Mythic Adjustments Scheduled for [date]
{Yes, Please} ^^

[Toren]

I believe the new Relic buffs will come with the 95 cap.

I also hope the dev's are careful with this buff a small number of Relic weapons are currently more powerful then their Empryean counter parts, which I firmly agree on Relics being superior. I just don't want to see them buffed to the point Mythic or Empryean weapons are not even worth having.

[DrStrangelove]

I believe the new Relic buffs will come with the 95 cap.

I also hope the dev's are careful with this buff a small number of Relic weapons are currently more powerful then their Empryean counter parts, which I firmly agree on Relics being superior. I just don't want to see them buffed to the point Mythic or Empryean weapons are not even worth having.

A) Please list the relic weapons that are better. Bow, gun, h2h, great katana, great axe, katana, staff certainly not. Polearm, club and scythe likely not. Great sword, axe and sword I'm not sure of so may be a wash. That leaves shield and horn and dagger. Certainly a lot of people rate those well. I'm highly doubtful that the mythics fare this well in comparison.

B) Please justify the notion that SHOULD SE actually make relics and mythics 5% better than empyreans, that people will choose not to do a weapon that can be completed by a duo today in a few weeks and will choose instead to spend months / years to collect 120 million gil to do a relic.

The main problem with your argument is that since September when the new WS made empyreans superior and the new levels made them easy to obtain, there have been well over 4,000 empyreans created while the number of completed relics and mythics has fallen to a dribble.

Either empyreans are really far easier to get than relics/mythics or really much better than relics/mythics or both. (In most cases the answer is that it's both.)

Unless you want SE to make relics and mythics better than empyreans, then you must be ready to ask SE to make it MUCH easier to get relics and mythics than empyreans. Otherwise, what you want is the status quo.

Keep in mind also, that WOE magian weapons are in many cases also better than relics, at least in Abyssea, while in many cases, often better outside.

You should not try to protect the feelings of people that obtained weapons that are the easiest to get and the best to have. Just enjoy the fact that SE has enabled so many people to easily stomp all over the efforts that others made. I know the people who have gotten 8 or 9 of these in the last few months are quite happy!

[Bumbeen]

closer to 200m now that currency price going up. i know aegis on valefor is something like 230m if you convert the currency to gil.

[Kimble]

Actually, I believe Relic and Mythic GKT are pretty close. I think relic gun is actually better than empy for RNG, Not sure about Bow but SAM can use bow as well so thats a use.

As for as Scythe, not sure since DRK is generally a dead job anyways.

From what ive heard, people make a big deal but only H2H, Gaxe, Katana, Sword ( im pretty sure) and gun for COR are better then their relics.

[Zyeriis]

Actually, I believe Relic and Mythic GKT are pretty close. I think relic gun is actually better than empy for RNG, Not sure about Bow but SAM can use bow as well so thats a use.

As for as Scythe, not sure since DRK is generally a dead job anyways.

From what ive heard, people make a big deal but only H2H, Gaxe, Katana, Sword ( im pretty sure) and gun for COR are better then their relics.

Last I checked there wasn't a relic weapon for Corsair. Just a Mythic and an Emp. There is a relic gun but, suffice to say, it's RNG only.

[Atomic_Skull]

Mandau is better than Twastar if you're just spamming Evisceration but Rudra's Storm stomps all over Mercy Stroke when stacked with SA or TA.

One thing I don't understand is how Blade: Hi can out damage a stacked Mercy Stroke from lvl 90 Mandau.

Mercy Stroke stacked on Sneak Attack is a critical hit with an fTP of 3.75 on a weapon damage of over 200 if you have a good DEX/STR set and RR (SA adds your DEX to your weapon's DMG for that one hit)

Blade: Hi is fTP 4.0 AGI 60% on a DMG 53 weapon.


So why does Blade: Hi consistently out damage a SA'ed Mercy Stroke by a large margin?


One theory I've heard floated is that empyrean WS ignore level difference in the same manner as Y/G/K i.e. they have a bonus to cRatio. After seeing them do basically the exact same damage on everything from EP to HNMs I'm starting to believe that this is the explanation.

[Kimble]

Last I checked there wasn't a relic weapon for Corsair. Just a Mythic and an Emp. There is a relic gun but, suffice to say, it's RNG only.

Yeah, sure im didnt word it right, but I meant that relic gun is better than empy for RNG., buts great for cor.

[Toren]

Depends on what area, earlier I mentioned there are Relics that are superior outside of Abyssea the 90 Amanomurakumo, Spharai, Annilihator, Mjollnir can beat their Empryean counter parts in a parse. Its also safe to say Relics are also easier to come by now as I know people who are farming a average of 200~300 coins every day with just a group of 4~6 people.

Edit: Outside of Relics the 90 Ryunohige will destroy the 90 Rhongomiant.

[Bumbeen]

Spharai are not better than verethragna anywhere. Same for amano, although amano is much closer to masa than spharai is to vere.

[wish12oz]

Spharai are not better than verethragna anywhere. Same for amano, although amano is much closer to masa than spharai is to vere.

90 Amano is slightly better or slightly worse depending on what you're fighting, but it's safe to say they're pretty much the same.

and the only empyreans that are better then relics and mythics are great axe, katana, h2h, bow and sword. so 5 out of 14? weapons. OH NO GUIZ EMPYREANS ARE OVERPOWERED

[Sparthos]

Bow is debatable. Ranger is w/e atm.

You get a superior WS on Gandiva but it's superiority and RNGs lack of survivability means you'll likely be eating floor reducing your DPS to tatters. Great for making fireworks though.

Yoichi gets a beefed up Namas which isn't quite Jishnu's but delays your inevitable trip to the ground. Obviously using Barrage can be a quick death sentence but in terms of complementing RNG, the relic options are superior to the Empyreans.

H2H, Katana and Gaxe are better examples of weapons where the Emps totally trash the Relics on all fronts.

[Auredant]

That is like saying sky is good and so much to do because it has 5 zones, no its one event, same princaple, its like saying there is so much to do in dyna because there is 8 zones, things drop, you get items to +1 them.

dyna is one event, abyssea is one event, einherjar is one event (10 zones), limbus is one event ( lost count) and so on.

abyssea is the first time ever we ran into one event outdating everything, doing one thing is boring. abyssea was a nice change yes but it should not be the only thing to do. (even exp for lower levels)

abyssea is also the first time you got exp while farming for gear, abyssea changed FFXI more then you realize i think.

It's the only thing to do if you let it be...i still regularly enjoy doing limbus...also do sky and sea on occasion...will prolly look into doing salvage again soon as well.

[Bumbeen]

OH NO GUIZ EMPYREANS ARE OVERPOWERED

You are correct!


edit: also to be clear y/g/k do not ignore level diffference, they have an attack bonus. Or they ignore some % of defense if you want to word it like that.

[DrStrangelove]

Depends on what area, earlier I mentioned there are Relics that are superior outside of Abyssea the 90 Amanomurakumo, Spharai, Annilihator, Mjollnir can beat their Empryean counter parts in a parse. Its also safe to say Relics are also easier to come by now as I know people who are farming a average of 200~300 coins every day with just a group of 4~6 people.

Edit: Outside of Relics the 90 Ryunohige will destroy the 90 Rhongomiant.

See post above mine, but just to chime in, Motenten did detailed calculations on H2h and Spharai loses by 10%+ ouside Abyssea and around 35%+ in Abyssea,

As far as gun is concerned, relic vs empyrean look similar stat-wise but here it ends. Outside abyssea, the extra DD aftermath from Armageddon blows away the +ratt and +racc on Annihilator, but worse still is that not only does Wildfire have an ftp advantage (5.5 to 3.0), but it is elemental not physical thus both reducing the damage reduction. Also note that it gives one the option to add more damage in ear slots and main weapon slots for magic attack bonuses which dwarfs the benefits coronach gains. In Abyssea where one can use +50 MAB atmas x2, it's purely obscene. (Unless you haven't seen it, brewed wildfires easily can hit 50,000+ damage. Nope, brewed coronach's don't come close.)

The same analysis can be done across most of the weapons, and as I mentioned earlier, mythics are even more in need of an upgrade.

This is really not a close issue IMO. Empyreans simply do much more damage and are much much easier to get. Had they been introduced first, there would likely not have been more than 50 relics and mythics ever made.

[DrStrangelove]

90 Amano is slightly better or slightly worse depending on what you're fighting, but it's safe to say they're pretty much the same.

and the only empyreans that are better then relics and mythics are great axe, katana, h2h, bow and sword. so 5 out of 14? weapons. OH NO GUIZ EMPYREANS ARE OVERPOWERED

Continue to post! You routinely provide welcome relief to all of the serious and beneficial posts we all have to wade through.

If you don't understand that a weapon that has BOTH a 3.65 to 3.00 ftp advantage (on jobs that do 60% of their damage via WS), plus a DOT advantage by doing DD as an aftermath (which on sam should be on most of the time), then I can certainly understand why this whole thread leaves you struggling.

[DrStrangelove]

Bow is debatable. Ranger is w/e atm.

You get a superior WS on Gandiva but it's superiority and RNGs lack of survivability means you'll likely be eating floor reducing your DPS to tatters. Great for making fireworks though.

Yoichi gets a beefed up Namas which isn't quite Jishnu's but delays your inevitable trip to the ground. Obviously using Barrage can be a quick death sentence but in terms of complementing RNG, the relic options are superior to the Empyreans.

H2H, Katana and Gaxe are better examples of weapons where the Emps totally trash the Relics on all fronts.

I really agree with most of what you say here, but because rng shoots so slowly, and because many mobs have damage reductions, there are many mobs where rngs pulling hate does not occur because melee are not just doing 2k WS, but also hammering out rapid crits.

At that point, you are comparing roughly a 2,000 Jishnu (5,25 ftp with DD aftermath) to a 1,200 Namas (2.75 ftp+bonus). The advantage for Yoichi when neither rng pulls hate is gone.

[Atomic_Skull]

90 Amano is slightly better or slightly worse depending on what you're fighting, but it's safe to say they're pretty much the same.

and the only empyreans that are better then relics and mythics are great axe, katana, h2h, bow and sword. so 5 out of 14? weapons. OH NO GUIZ EMPYREANS ARE OVERPOWERED

Rudra's Storm stomps Mercy Stroke.

[Atomic_Skull]

Continue to post! You routinely provide welcome relief to all of the serious and beneficial posts we all have to wade through.

If you don't understand that a weapon that has BOTH a 3.65 to 3.00 ftp advantage (on jobs that do 60% of their damage via WS), plus a DOT advantage by doing DD as an aftermath (which on sam should be on most of the time), then I can certainly understand why this whole thread leaves you struggling.

If turns out to be correct that empyrean weaponskills have a cRatio bonus then the gap becomes even larger.

[Bumbeen]

that's very easy to test but I don't have an emp to test it with!

[Atomic_Skull]

that's very easy to test but I don't have an emp to test it with!

Not really because it doesn't show except on high level mobs where you don't have the damage consistency of lvl 1 rabbits.

[Bumbeen]

Not really because it doesn't show except on high level mobs where you don't have the damage consistency of lvl 1 rabbits.

Won't be consistent anyway since most of them are crit, but could still do it in a days worth of work or so

[Unctgtg]

Hey Admins June 6th is another update, when are we going to get an update?

[Kiba]

[dev1018] Relic & Mythic Adjustments and Refinements

The next version update is scheduled to feature the following adjustments:

Once again I wish someone, community dev, development team, whoever is listening and can answer:(

[Bumbeen]

ABANDON ALL HOPE YE WHO ENTER THIS THREAD

[Taint2]

90 Amano is slightly better or slightly worse depending on what you're fighting, but it's safe to say they're pretty much the same.

and the only empyreans that are better then relics and mythics are great axe, katana, h2h, bow and sword. so 5 out of 14? weapons. OH NO GUIZ EMPYREANS ARE OVERPOWERED

Amano is not beating Masa. ODD, 15str, and a WS with not only a higher base ftp but also one that scales with tp gain.

Emp ODD tips the scale on almost every weapon.

[Sama]

Please provide update info Moogle~

Either tell us wait more or no buff; just tell us something please~~~~~~~~~~~

[Kiba]

Please provide update info Moogle~

Either tell us wait more or no buff; just tell us something please~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes, it was so nice to finally check the dev tracker and see something related to relic and mythic weapons. Now if we can get an update on when the implementation of adjustments is planned it would be very much appreciated Community Devs & Development Team :o

[Coldbrand]

We are aware that there currently exists a major difference between the strength of Empyrean weapons and that of Relic and Mythic weapons.

In regards to that balance issue, we are planning to make adjustments. We plan to create a higher level of balance by strengthening both Relic and Mythic weapons instead of simply weakening Empyrean weapons.

Along with that, we are also planning to make adjustments to both the time and cost required to create and strengthen Relic and Mythic weapons. Eventually, we would like to even out the differences in the amount of time required to create and strengthen these weapons.

Hey Gildrein I'm wondering if I can get an answer as to whether or not certain Empyrean weapons which are lacking will also see buffs, or at least certain Empyrean WSs? I know Camate said WSs are being rebalanced, can you give us an idea of when, and will you be looking at some of the EMP WS that trail behind? (Camlann's Torment)

(Not to mention the OaT Lance beats out the freaking Empyrean (--; )

[Malacite]

Does it really? Even with aftermath and the difference in base D?

Also, I'm not seeing how Mandau beats Twasthar, at least for a THF anyway - Yes, Rudra's pretty much requires either SA or TA behind it, but otherwise it's quite nasty and again, aftermath dramatically tips the scales towards Empyreans.

Same deal with Annihilator - how the heck does it win over Amrageddon exactly? It only has 1 more base damage, and from what I've read Wildfire is capable of some truly horrific damage, especially with a Brew lol (I've heard reports of 70k+ dmg with brew)

No, the only relics that are "better" are Mjollnir & Mandau (RDM & BRD only) really. Aegis is situationally useful for PLD against mobs that spam a lot of magic, but otherwise Ochain beats it pretty hard with its absurd block rate & dmg reduction. Gjallar loses out as well at 90 due to the 3rd song, especially during soul voice. The gap's only going to widen if & when BRD gets a 3rd march song.

Apocalypse you can kind of make an argument for, I guess, since that 10 haste aftermath is kinda nice but in all honesty the recent gear we've gotten lately makes it a moot point. The gap isn't quite as wide with some of the weapons, but it's still undeniable that Empyreans > Relics, and most of the mythics save for a few of the really nice utility ones (Yagrush, Kenkon etc)

[Coldbrand]

The point is you're not supposed to be using Drakesbane anymore once you have the Rhongomiant. Otherwise it's just like some deranged Ryunohige wannabe'. It's not different than the fact that it's wrong that I'm sure Gungnir users still use Drakesbane too. You know who should be using Drakesbane? Ryunohige owners.

Also, since you seem to think that universally all Empyreans are better, you should know that Ryunohige handily beats out all the alternatives for Dragoon. So please don't act like my post is wrong without knowing the math.

I really would appreciate a CM response.

PS: Not looking for a crit ws nerf (I really hope that isn't happening), just wondering if the devs are aware that some Empyreans lag behind too. And that Relic and Empyrean Lance owners don't use their relic and empyrean WSs (except for aftermath in Rhongomiant's case.)

[Dart]

The point is you're not supposed to be using Drakesbane anymore once you have the Rhongomiant. Otherwise it's just like some deranged Ryunohige wannabe'. It's not different than the fact that it's wrong that I'm sure Gungnir users still use Drakesbane too. You know who should be using Drakesbane? Ryunohige owners.

Also, since you seem to think that universally all Empyreans are better, you should know that Ryunohige handily beats out all the alternatives for Dragoon. So please don't act like my post is wrong without knowing the math.

I really would appreciate a CM response.

PS: Not looking for a crit ws nerf (I really hope that isn't happening), just wondering if the devs are aware that some Empyreans lag behind too. And that Relic and Empyrean Lance owners don't use their relic and empyrean WSs (except for aftermath in Rhongomiant's case.)

this is true if you only use torment, the more drakes you can get in and still keep AM up, the more empy lance pulls ahead.

also drg has absolutely nothing to complain about. Do mythic lance and enjoy the only weapon that can compete with ukon from a math perspective.

[Kiba]

Camate I just read your response to the Abyssea VNM Congestion issue


Sorry for the late response on this topic!

Would it be possible if we can have the same courtesy on an update on this implementation? When we can expect adjustments to relic and mythic weapons to take place. Thank you thank you.

[Coldbrand]

What's so hard to understand about the point that if you make a lance that has a unique WS to the lance and it took you countless hours to make (don't bother dickwaving, I don't care how fast you made yours if you did) then you shouldn't just keep using the same exact WS you had before you made it? Or for any other emp/relic weapon for that matter.

[Atomic_Skull]

What's so hard to understand about the point that if you make a lance that has a unique WS to the lance and it took you countless hours to make (don't bother dickwaving, I don't care how fast you made yours if you did) then you shouldn't just keep using the same exact WS you had before you made it? Or for any other emp/relic weapon for that matter.

Hi I'm a Mandau THF welcome to my world.

Oh wait no, its not my world because Drakesbane is one of the strongest WS in the game inside Abyssea or outside it while Evisceration is merely "ok", and only in Abyssea while outside it's substandard.

[Unctgtg]

Hi I'm a Mandau THF welcome to my world.

Oh wait no, its not my world because Drakesbane is one of the strongest WS in the game inside Abyssea or outside it while Evisceration is merely "ok", and only in Abyssea while outside it's substandard.

All relic users are feeling the same way.

[Coldbrand]

Well your weapons are getting buffs, my point was to see if the devs were aware this issue even applies to some Emp weapons. I'm not keen on the idea that I unlock some new weaponskill that's not good at puncturing heavy armor despite that being its pitch in the description (10% ignore at 100%), worse than a WS I already have everywhere, and is really only used for aftermath begrudgingly. Is it really that hard to understand I already know Drakes is good? But I'm not making Ryunohige, am I?(yet) And I'm sure Gungnir owners feel the same way towards Geirskogul.

But please, post yet another response saying: BUTT DRAGEWN, DID U NO DAT DRAKESBANE AM GUD?

[Kiba]

Camate,

After responding about gobbie bag increase plans and checking with the development team in regards to tractor, can we finally have a response from you and the development team on when we can expect adjustments to relic and mythic weapons implemented?

Thank you kindly for your courtesy and assistance communicating information from the Development Team.

[Kimble]

I love that this post as to bebumped, every, single, day.

[Dart]

drg beats sam now and they're still crying. I just don't get it.

[Azagthoth]

If I was part of the community team I probably wouldn't respond promptly to this either. One of the most annoying things people can do is pretend to be polite while whining and begging. They'll respond when they're ready.

It's going to take some work to balance everything to their satisfaction and they may not have a date in mind yet.

[Kiba]

If I was part of the community team I probably wouldn't respond promptly to this either. One of the most annoying things people can do is pretend to be polite while whining and begging. They'll respond when they're ready.

It's going to take some work to balance everything to their satisfaction and they may not have a date in mind yet.
Asking politely is the favorable way. There are already players concerned upset about the lack of communication.

Everyone already knows its going to take time to work on this, however seriously 1 month after the major version update, 3 months since they announced adjustments will be made, and almost 8 months since the issue existed - do they really need this long to come up with a date to implement? Project management is really not this hard. Even so, the approach is to be persistent and ask nicely until there is a courtesy response.

[Coldbrand]

drg beats sam now and they're still crying. I just don't get it.

Enjoy having no reading comprehension. It's not a matter of crying, it's a matter of people who make any of these relic/mythic/empyrean weapons should be using the WS associated with them, or at least it should be viable to. But hey, continue to sound like a 12 year old if it makes you happy.

[Malacite]

Enjoy having no reading comprehension. It's not a matter of crying, it's a matter of people who make any of these relic/mythic/empyrean weapons should be using the WS associated with them, or at least it should be viable to. But hey, continue to sound like a 12 year old if it makes you happy.

Exactly. Why go through all that effort to obtain one of these only to find out it's just a pretty looking toy?

[Azagthoth]

The politeness is fake; it's a facade, which is why it's so irriating.

SE's communication with players has improved drasticly in recent times. They aren't required to post any information about their plans; therefore, I don't see how demanding the information is going to help your cause.

The problem has existed for only 8 months? In other words, you're just the typical person that is mad, because his weapon isn't on top anymore. Numerous relics have been relatively useless since their creation and you wouldn't have made this thread if Empyreans weren't added to the game.

[Kiba]

The politeness is fake; it's a facade, which is why it's so irriating.

SE's communication with players has improved drasticly in recent times. They aren't required to post any information about their plans; therefore, I don't see how demanding the information is going to help your cause.

The problem has existed for only 8 months? In other words, you're just the typical person that is mad, because his weapon isn't on top anymore. Numerous relics have been relatively useless since their creation and you wouldn't have made this thread if Empyreans weren't added to the game.
Whether fake or not polite is the way to go because how can there be expect of courtesy without respect.

Improved however can improve more to customer service standards. Look at other game support forums and you'll see the difference.

So what? What is wrong with being dissatisfied with the current imbalance? Before Empyreans were brought to the game, the weaponskill damage and dps standards were far less compared to now. It was not brought up before because everyone was under the impression that these are the standards and current limits. Now that Empyreans have been introduced the scale to define standards has changed and is time for relic and mythic weapons to be adjusted to meet the performance acceptable for the present conditions.

Like I said before if you don't like this thread then don't read. No one is forcing you to read. It's the community reps and development teams responsibility to recognize and review issues addressed and answer, which is deteriorating at this time due to lack of communication.

[Bumbeen]

C'mon man, relic users are a small % of the playerbase. It simply isn't a priority.

[Kiba]

C'mon man, relic users are a small % of the playerbase. It simply isn't a priority.
in a standard customer service environment, every customer counts ^^ thnx

[Bumbeen]

If 95% of your customers are black, and 5% of your customers are white. Do you put more attention towards the quality of your fried chicken, or the quality of your hummus?

[Dart]

racist statements to validate arguments. I'll allow it.

[Kiba]

If 95% of your customers are black, and 5% of your customers are white. Do you put more attention towards the quality of your fried chicken, or the quality of your hummus?
This makes me hungry ^^ I'll go eat dinner and come back to read more, maybe then we'll have a response from the Community Reps/Dev Team.

[Unctgtg]

There are actually more relic holders then you think. SE is probably going to throw us a bone when it comes time to level to 95 and throw us another 50% increase.

[Bumbeen]

There are actually more relic holders then you think. SE is probably going to throw us a bone when it comes time to level to 95 and throw us another 50% increase.

What % of the player population do you estimate have relic weapons?

[Malacite]

Didn't the census show that there is in fact a pretty good chunk of relics out there now?

It's still a minority of the playerbase, but it's not so small as to make their complaints irrelevant in the greater scheme of things.

[Bumbeen]

2009 census lists 3245 relic holders, an increase of 1376 from the year before.

The 2010 mog bonanza lists 5,167,923 total marbles sold. The 2011 new year bonanza lists Total marbles sold: 3,229,335

I estimate ~3-4% of the game population have relic weapons.

And most of those are aegis, which has been patched already. So it's more like 2% of the game population to which this thread applies.

[Kiba]

2009 census lists 3245 relic holders, an increase of 1376 from the year before.

The 2010 mog bonanza lists 5,167,923 total marbles sold. The 2011 new year bonanza lists Total marbles sold: 3,229,335

I estimate ~3-4% of the game population have relic weapons.

And most of those are aegis, which has been patched already. So it's more like 2% of the game population to which this thread applies.
Thank you for the research, its so informative. From these numbers I see the numbers still significant considering its in comparison to a total player base that composes of alternate accounts, mules, and even inactive accounts/characters.

Once again if you do not support, then please do not go off topic.

[Bumbeen]

alternate accounts, mules, and even inactive accounts/characters.

Obviously I didn't account for that with my 3-4% estimate right?

[DrStrangelove]

2009 census lists 3245 relic holders, an increase of 1376 from the year before.

The 2010 mog bonanza lists 5,167,923 total marbles sold. The 2011 new year bonanza lists Total marbles sold: 3,229,335

I estimate ~3-4% of the game population have relic weapons.

And most of those are aegis, which has been patched already. So it's more like 2% of the game population to which this thread applies.

Implicitly, in your reply to Malacite, you are arguing that 2-3% of the population is not significant.

Let me help you with math. 80% of the relics are not Aegis.

Your argument seems to be this: if only 3% of the population have (do) something, then it can be ignored.

You are aware that since there are 20 jobs, that there are jobs today with less than 3% of the total leveled jobs yes? That at SOME POINT, at least 6-8 of those 20 jobs were leveled by less than 3% of the population. Then I guess you agree that dnc, blu, cor, pup, bst, rng, sch, and drg should never have gotten any attention?

You are aware that less than 3% of the population have capped crafts? You are aware that less than 3% of the population use sea? You are aware that less than 3% of the population does synergy? You are aware that less than 3% of the population does chocobo racing, pankration, or ZNM mobs? You are aware that less than 3% of the population melees as a mage? You are aware that less than 3% of the population uses throwing skill? You are aware that less than 3% of the population uses bolts at all, HQ arrows or HQ bullets; that less than 3% of the population uses elemental summons?

You are aware that up until around January, 2011 far less than 3% of the population had empyrean weapons.

Etc, etc, etc.

Your argument for 'majority rules' or 'popularity' to determine what should or should not be fixed, does not work in an environment when the whole purpose of the MMO is to create large numbers of diverse groups and interests. You argue that only significant groups should be supported: you seem to forget the game once had only 6 jobs and a handful of areas to explore.

SE challenged a slim number of players to create relics while making their success difficult and rare.

It seems disrespectful to suggest that BECAUSE these weapons are rare, that SE should now ignore them.

[Bumbeen]

Let me help you with math. 80% of the relics are not Aegis.

Your argument seems to be this: if only 3% of the population have (do) something, then it can be ignored.

You are aware that since there are 20 jobs, that there are jobs today with less than 3% of the total leveled jobs yes? That at SOME POINT, at least 6-8 of those 20 jobs were leveled by less than 3% of the population. Then I guess you agree that dnc, blu, cor, pup, bst, rng, sch, and drg should never have gotten any attention?

You are aware that less than 3% of the population have capped crafts? You are aware that less than 3% of the population use sea? You are aware that less than 3% of the population does synergy? You are aware that less than 3% of the population does chocobo racing, pankration, or ZNM mobs? You are aware that less than 3% of the population melees as a mage? You are aware that less than 3% of the population uses throwing skill? You are aware that less than 3% of the population uses bolts at all, HQ arrows or HQ bullets; that less than 3% of the population uses elemental summons?

You are aware that up until around January, 2011 far less than 3% of the population had empyrean weapons.

Etc, etc, etc.

You're completely incorrect that only 3% of the game population AT SOME POINT played dnc blu cor pup bst rng sch and drg The first day those jobs were released more than 3% of the players leveled them. I would also venture to say that you're wrong about 3% of the population doing synergy, sea, chocobo racing, throwing, and meleeing on a mage job.

And where did you get that I said 80% of relics are aegis?

I didn't say SE should ignore them, I said if 95% of your customers are black, you pay more attention to the fried chicken than to the hummus. It's obvious business sense. It has nothing to do with respect.

[Raksha]

if 95% of your customers are black, you pay more attention to the fried chicken than to the hummus.

I'm white, and also offended by the notion that I would come within 50 miles of hummus.

[Didgist]

Relic holders need to stop crying. If you made it simply to dominate others and not for the small situational benefits then developers shouldn't cater to you for missing the point.

[Kiba]

Relic holders need to stop crying. If you made it simply to dominate others and not for the small situational benefits then developers shouldn't cater to you for missing the point.
Thank you for your suggestion although there is a difference between complaining and crying. If you are not interested in contributing ideas to relic and mythic adjustments or supporting concerns then please do not go off topic.

[DrStrangelove]

I estimate ~3-4% of the game population have relic weapons.

And most of those are aegis, which has been patched already. So it's more like 2% of the game population to which this thread applies.

1) Here's more help. It's your post is it not? I'm sorry...what does it say? MOST of the relics are Aegis? I said 80% are not Aegis. Try to follow. You said MOST are Aegis. I said MOST (80%) are not.

2) Here's a link to the 2009 census you mentioned. It says 645 of the 3.245 relics are Aegis. Do you think 645 is most of 3,245? I think it's 20%. 20% is a lot less than 50%, so it can't be most can it?

3) See also the census by SE on jobs. Not a guess. A fact. It says that 10 jobs are each less than 3% of the total. it says that 5 jobs are less than 2% of the total. Please argue that those 5-10 jobs should ask for zero improvements or corrections in their jobs or just drop your argument.

4) In fact, 8 of the jobs (whm-blm-rdm-thf-war-mnk-pld-nin) make up 72% of the jobs. So the other 12 jobs should just suck it up and get no changes right? Hint: Wrong. SE created the jobs and SE has an obligation to help the jobs become or stay viable.

http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/guide/development/census/09/index.html

[Bumbeen]

1) Here's more help. It's your post is it not? I'm sorry...what does it say? MOST of the relics are Aegis? I said 80% are not Aegis. Try to follow. You said MOST are Aegis. I said MOST (80%) are not.

2) Here's a link to the 2009 census you mentioned. It says 645 of the 3.245 relics are Aegis. Do you think 645 is most of 3,245? I think it's 20%. 20% is a lot less than 50%, so it can't be most can it?

3) See also the census by SE on jobs. Not a guess. A fact. It says that 10 jobs are each less than 3% of the total. it says that 5 jobs are less than 2% of the total. Please argue that those 5-10 jobs should ask for zero improvements or corrections in their jobs or just drop your argument.

4) In fact, most of the jobs are just whm-blm-rdm-thf-war-mnk-pld-nin that make up 72% of the jobs. So the other 12 jobs should just suck it up and get no changes right?

http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/guide/development/census/09/index.html

Umm....ok?

Yeah "most" was wrong, but it is the highest % of completed relics(hence the incorrect "most"). 20% then, I will revise my 2% estimate to 3% thanks to your cunning linguistic skills.

About the jobs:

and the data from the game regarding which main jobs players had actually set their characters to.
That is ambiguous, possibly it means the job players had the most hours on? Or maybe it was just a one time snapshot of the different jobs people were currently on? Either way it should be obvious that it does NOT mean "jobs people have leveled or played". Did you, in 2009, personally know more people who had relic weapons, or more who had bard leveled? Do you really think only 3% of the playerbase has leveled brd, drk, or drg?

[DrStrangelove]

About the jobs:

That is ambiguous, possibly it means the job players had the most hours on? Or maybe it was just a one time snapshot of the different jobs people were currently on? Either way it should be obvious that it does NOT mean "jobs people have leveled or played". Did you, in 2009, personally know more people who had relic weapons, or more who had bard leveled? Do you really think only 3% of the playerbase has leveled brd, drk, or drg?

Why should it be obvious what it does NOT mean when you have already argued that it's ambiguous. Your argument is: we are totally confused about what they mean, but we know for sure what they didn't mean.

I'm sorry. It says what it says: "...data from the game regarding which main jobs players had actually set their characters to." What they had set their characters to...what it was set to...

Obviously your point is that people don't set their characters to the job they are actually playing. When one goes to events, one goes on the job one does not play. When one logs off, one always switch to a random unused job. When one runs around town, one uses a random job they don't play. Typically, it's the least useful and least leveled job one takes around the world where mobs might aggro. Certainly not one that would be leveled, geared, macroed and skilled.

One last point: the census does not say these are the % of people who have leveled a particular job. It adds up to 100% and we know that people have more than 1 job. It says these are the % of jobs that were set by characters when the census was taken. It does not mean that only 3% of the players have a bard.

The fact that many jobs are not heavily used does not mean people didn't level them, but it does imply the same point you made on relics. Why fix a job that people don't use much? The answer is that the MMO is designed around a large diversity of interests.

Regardless, back to relics and mythics.

[Bumbeen]

Obviously your point is that people don't set their characters to the job they are actually playing. When one goes to events, one goes on the job one does not play. When one logs off, one always switch to a random unused job. When one runs around town, one uses a random job they don't play. Typically, it's the least useful and least leveled job one takes around the world where mobs might aggro. Certainly not one that would be leveled, geared, macroed and skilled.

Which is correct. Why do you think most people are on whm, rdm, blm, thf? Utility. Why do I even have to explain this? teles, warps, flee, w legs, gaiters, trotter boots.

You are unsuccessfully trying to shoot down my argument which you didn't even get right in the first place.
I said that relic adjustments are not a priority for the dev team, and I gave a reason for that: That a very low % of the player population have relics.

I did not say I think the developers should ignore relic weapons, I do not think they should, but I understand why they might ignore them. So I don't know why you're trying to tell me that I think the opposite.

If you are going to try to prove me wrong, you should be arguing that relic adjustments are a high priority for the developers, since my assertion and reason for that assertion argue that they are not.




3) See also the census by SE on jobs. Not a guess. A fact. It says that 10 jobs are each less than 3% of the total. it says that 5 jobs are less than 2% of the total. Please argue that those 5-10 jobs should ask for zero improvements or corrections in their jobs or just drop your argument.


It says these are the % of jobs that were set by characters when the census was taken. It does not mean that only 3% of the players have a bard.
Did someone hijack your keyboard?

[Didgist]

Thank you for your suggestion although there is a difference between complaining and crying. If you are not interested in contributing ideas to relic and mythic adjustments or supporting concerns then please do not go off topic.

I am contributing. There are players who spent 2 years+ partying long hours for Maat Cap only to have it trumped situationally and on top of that exp gain has been made easier and easier. Mindless grinding for months on end were spent simply capping merits on all jobs or farming gil for a top tier gear set that is now worthless.

Thinking that relics and mythics need to be buffed to a point where it goes beyond being a luxury item and breaks the game is only going to bring back heavy RMT and hacking, something this game has been plauged with until Empyreans were introduced. If you want real rewards that last for making a contribution then go get a career or a masters degree. Making mythics and relics over the top will only bring trash back to this game that i'm sure all players are happy to be done with.

No one cares or should ever care that much about what you did on the internet, get over it.

[Azagthoth]

You are crying and whining though Kiba. You're crying for an answer, as to when the updates will occur, etc. And, most of all you're crying because your respective relic/s aren't on top anymore.

Don't pretend you're on a mission to fix them when you wouldn't have an issue if they just buffed your weapon/s or if your weapon/s were the only ones out of the group still on top.

I'm all for relics/mythics getting buffed, but I wish they could disclude all the players with entitlement issues from the buff.

[Unctgtg]

People will never learn.

TO SE FIX THEM

[Didgist]

You are crying and whining though Kiba. You're crying for an answer, as to when the updates will occur, etc. And, most of all you're crying because your respective relic/s aren't on top anymore.

Don't pretend you're on a mission to fix them when you wouldn't have an issue if they just buffed your weapon/s or if your weapon/s were the only ones out of the group still on top.

I'm all for relics/mythics getting buffed, but I wish they could disclude all the players with entitlement issues from the buff.

AF2 should be superior to AF3 etc.

[Kiba]

No one cares or should ever care that much about what you did on the internet, get over it.
Look who's talking.

[Kiba]

You are crying and whining though Kiba. You're crying for an answer, as to when the updates will occur, etc. And, most of all you're crying because your respective relic/s aren't on top anymore.

Don't pretend you're on a mission to fix them when you wouldn't have an issue if they just buffed your weapon/s or if your weapon/s were the only ones out of the group still on top.

I'm all for relics/mythics getting buffed, but I wish they could disclude all the players with entitlement issues from the buff.
Wow you seem to know me very well, did we go to school together? If you review my previous posts I have no intention of expecting relics on top. It is the current state of balance which is unacceptable. Entitlement? As I also mentioned the says all ends all is in the hands of the development team. On a player standpoint getting a relic or mythic is not necessarily to be "better than others". The weapons can influence how you play a job which was the prime benefit. But since standards have changed this enjoyment using these have went downhill and is why this was addressed and the development team recognized in March the issue, that adjustments will be made.

It gets tiring constantly mention to not go off topic as while complaining about lack of followup, there is still contesting of decision to make adjustments when the March announcement was made.

[Didgist]

On a player standpoint getting a relic or mythic is not necessarily to be "better than others". The weapons can influence how you play a job which was the prime benefit.



Maybe they will get the idea. Me being a relic own since 2006 and being on top of the DD world, 2 nerfs to my relic, and now being completely pushed to the bottom of the barrel sucks lol.

The thing I don't get is that if these weapons are so easy to make, why not just make one? You're dedicated to having everything at your disposal to influence your job yet a week or two of work is not worth your time? I don't see Caladbolg Dark Knights draining over 1k HP when they weaponskill, Ochain Paladins being almost completely immune to magic, and Armageddon Rangers spamming hate free weapon skills. Relics still influence the jobs as effectively as they had previously, and the whole outcry is from people like Unc who thought they should be on top for something that required even less knowledge of the game as Abyssea requires. If I had a 1 gil for every time a relic holder said their WS was a multihit I would just buy one.

Kiba you can dress up this argument all you want, accomplishments are transient. Good on you, Square-Enix.

[Unctgtg]

The thing I don't get is that if these weapons are so easy to make, why not just make one? You're dedicated to having everything at your disposal to influence your job yet a week or two of work is not worth your time? I don't see Caladbolg Dark Knights draining over 1k HP when they weaponskill, Ochain Paladins being almost completely immune to magic, and Armageddon Rangers spamming hate free weapon skills. Relics still influence the jobs as effectively as they had previously, and the whole outcry is from people like Unc who thought they should be on top for something that required even less knowledge of the game as Abyssea requires. If I had a 1 gil for every time a relic holder said their WS was a multihit I would just buy one.

Kiba you can dress up this argument all you want, accomplishments are transient. Good on you, Square-Enix.

No you still just don't get it, us relic/mythic owners are saying the amount of time we put into something should easily make them on top. SE stated they have no interest in lowering currency requirements for final stages, and honestly why would I try for a emp when I put nearly 2 years of my life into my relic. I feel cheated.

[Kimble]

Put in 3 days for a better weapon > ??? > Profit!

[Sama]

I feel cheated.

It's slap in da face.

[Habiki]

The one thing relics might have over empyrians atm is they might not be limited to lvl 90, I can't see empyrians being able to be upgraded past 90 since abyssea ended and thats where the weapons come from unless further quests come through voidwatch.

End result relics and mythics lvl 99, Empyrians lvl 90, this is speculation though.

This would definatly help with balance issues, and i imagine this is where their going with them with the changes to dynamis, even if theres nothing in the old city and icelands zones allowing you to upgrade relics, they still have plans to change dreamlands along with all the areas associated with mythics.

I imagine we'll get our answers after said content is released along with the lvl cap raise and their probably trying to keep it under wraps. They said theyll fix them so they will it will probably be later then sooner though.

[Didgist]

End result relics and mythics lvl 99, Empyrians lvl 90, this is speculation though.


Fairly certain this is where they were going with it. And like I said people have spent 2 years + doing things just to do them and not to "be on top", even though most relic holders were just gilbuyers or botters anyways.

[Atomic_Skull]

Fairly certain this is where they were going with it. And like I said people have spent 2 years + doing things just to do them and not to "be on top", even though most relic holders were just gilbuyers or botters anyways.

Almost nobody bought gil to make a relic because it would cost you around $10,000-$15,000 to do it that way.

There are plenty of ways to make large amounts of gil legitimately in FFXI. It's nobody's fault but your own that you couldn't be bothered to look.

[Dart]

would be pretty easy to fix our relics (mythics I haven't really looked into so I'm not sure what they need to do for them).

Still the amount of hateraid in this thread is amusing. Plz continue you trolls, I'm sorry that you suck at this game.

[Didgist]

would be pretty easy to fix our relics (mythics I haven't really looked into so I'm not sure what they need to do for them).

Still the amount of hateraid in this thread is amusing. Plz continue you trolls, I'm sorry that you suck at this game.

We're not sorry your weapons are trash now.

Also Fenrir's #1 ranked multiple relic holder just got banned for flee hacking. Shocker, I know.

[Taint2]

No way emps stop at 90, the player base with emps is too large to ignore. One of the most interesting things about emps is 90% are stuck at 85 and under the current conditions will never see 90.

[Unctgtg]

No way emps stop at 90, the player base with emps is too large to ignore. One of the most interesting things about emps is 90% are stuck at 85 and under the current conditions will never see 90.

Agreed with you there Taint but still even the 85 versions are still far superior to the 90 versions of relics.

[Didgist]

So what do relic holders want done to their weapons? Crit mod multihit? Only a few Empyreans have that. Relics still retain unique abilities that are unlike any other weapons in the game. Also they are very very old.

[Dart]

We're not sorry your weapons are trash now.

Also Fenrir's #1 ranked multiple relic holder just got banned for flee hacking. Shocker, I know.

what are you talking about? i have 2 relics and 4 empy. I go with the times. go troll someplace else, You're just bad.

[Dart]

outside them continuing to strengthen relic ws as they've started too. make the 5% ODD for 2 hand and triple dmg for 1 hand jump up higher as well. 30% like Empy AM lvl 1 imo. 95 and 99 magian quests to further inc dmg to relic ws and bam, they can compete again. its actually pretty simple if people pull their heads out of their collective asses about this topic and the dev team, which has done an excellent job listening to the player base, continues to do their thing.

but whatever will be, will be. I've got my 4 empy done (2 at 90, finishing up the last 2) so Idc either way. I just can't stand stupid.

[Unctgtg]

outside them continuing to strengthen relic ws as they've started too. make the 5% ODD for 2 hand and triple dmg for 1 hand jump up higher as well. 30% like Empy AM lvl 1 imo. 95 and 99 magian quests to further inc dmg to relic ws and bam, they can compete again. its actually pretty simple if people pull their heads out of their collective asses about this topic and the dev team, which has done an excellent job listening to the player base, continues to do their thing.

but whatever will be, will be. I've got my 4 empy done (2 at 90, finishing up the last 2) so Idc either way. I just can't stand stupid.

We are not asking what they plan to do to them, we just want them to confirm they are planning on doing something like an update to say this or that. W

[Dart]

that was in response to that troll guy unc, not you guys

he asked what we wanted and I laid out a way for relics to not be "broken" and compete with empy weapons in raw dmg.

[Unctgtg]

that was in response to that troll guy unc, not you guys

he asked what we wanted and I laid out a way for relics to not be "broken" and compete with empy weapons in raw dmg.

Ah ok lol sorry bout that.

[Sama]

even though most relic holders were just gilbuyers or botters anyways.

Say that in game and add Japanese version you will be banned in 2 min this is insult.

Where you got that from?

[Azagthoth]

Say that in game and add Japanese version you will be banned in 2 min this is insult.

Where you got that from?

Says the person that has a relic that doesn't even understand simple game mechanics. I seem to recall you posting a screenshot of Blade: Metsu complaining about how low the damage was when you obviously whiffed the main hit. You also emphasized the fact you had 3 atma including GH. What exactly was GH supposed to do to enhance your damage?

In any case, I'm sure they'll post information when they're ready to share it with the public. Show some respect to the developers and be patient.

[Bumbeen]

If they do end up making it like relics go to 99 and emps stop at 90, then they might not want to reveal that as it would be part of the version updates for >95>99.
Could be a reason for the silence.

[Ilax]

I kinda wonder now, as Mandau owner.. I must have spend a good 120h+ just on chloris to get the 50x Bud (ty for majority them dropping 1x only even with TH..)

In old dynamis system you had to spend ~3.5h/event so 7h/week and could get relic done in 26 week (6~7 month) So if you gather all the time that make a rough 182 hours. (problem in that old system is how you had to *exploit ppl* or have a lots of very good friend ready to spend time for you.

The only difference tbh with Dynamis relic and Empy now are the time you can spend per day really, because in the end you spend as much if not more time doing some empy then dynamis relic.

How long it took me for 50x chloris bud, hmm took me 6 day, but 20h/day. That the only 'easy part' of empy, is because you can spend tons of time in 1 day into it, that do not mean they are more easy then dynamis.. Back then we could have argue about the amount of GIL spend, but SE removed the fee, and i know many of my friend able to get 50 currency /day just solo. Again 2h/day * 7 = 14h 7*50 = 350 currency/week for 1 player, so balance it as abyssea where you need at least 4 player to hold KI or /assist NM then that give you 1,400 currency / week.

So ya, 4 good player can pull out 1400 currency/week and spend total 14h, you need 14,500/1400 per week = 10.35 week. 10.35 week of 14h give 144.9 hours, is less time then what you going to spend to finish Chloris/uld/Dragua trust me.

The only problem really is the 2h max per day you can do dynamis that make relic look harder now, nothing else.

Note how i point chloris or could had say same for glavoid, some Empy like Gun/Bow etc are a joke, but anyway also keep in mind i did not include the 21x NM [1 to 6h pop] you have to kill and the 20 VNM. (look like nothing but it add up quick on time sink (30~40h+ right there).

[Sama]

Says the person that has a relic that doesn't even understand simple game mechanics. I seem to recall you posting a screenshot of Blade: Metsu complaining about how low the damage was when you obviously whiffed the main hit. You also emphasized the fact you had 3 atma including GH. What exactly was GH supposed to do to enhance your damage?

In any case, I'm sure they'll post information when they're ready to share it with the public. Show some respect to the developers and be patient.

Telling you what atmas I used simply because I try to avoid people like you making assumptions that I had mage atma. I'm just letting people know doesn't mean this is the best and all I wanted it is to have a SS showing how low relic and go. You may be very good at atma combination I don't know but I'm not here to dealt with that. Relic owner (including me) just want SE to give us continuous response, they don't have to, but since they made this forum, we will continue to ask.

If you people got a problem you can leave, this thread is for relic anyways and it's not a place for you to judge and telling others how good you are.

[Kimble]

So how often would you like them to keep telling you they will be making adjustments to relics? Once a week? Every other day?

[Azagthoth]

Telling you what atmas I used simply because I try to avoid people like you making assumptions that I had mage atma. I'm just letting people know doesn't mean this is the best and all I wanted it is to have a SS showing how low relic and go. You may be very good at atma combination I don't know but I'm not here to dealt with that. Relic owner (including me) just want SE to give us continuous response, they don't have to, but since they made this forum, we will continue to ask.

If you people got a problem you can leave, this thread is for relic anyways and it's not a place for you to judge and telling others how good you are.

If you're not sure how to optimize your relic's WS damage and can't figure out when you only land the off-hand hit then it doesn't matter sense to go through the effort of upgrading two relics if you're unware of their potential. You seemed to get over defensive about Didgist's comment about gilbuyers and botters, which leads us to the conclusion: You bought your account. Whether this is true or not your still one of the many players that make relic users look terrible.

[Kiba]

As much as I appreciate the bumps, once again I ask to stay on topic by either expression of concern on development team follow up on their March announcement on planned relic and mythic weapon adjustments or sharing ideas on how to improve the balance situation.

If you do not support or am annoyed at addressing of these concerns which I apologize, I ask you please not to participate. The March announcement was very clear:

Gildrein 03-25-2011 07:08 AM
We are aware that there currently exists a major difference between the strength of Empyrean weapons and that of Relic and Mythic weapons.

In regards to that balance issue, we are planning to make adjustments. We plan to create a higher level of balance by strengthening both Relic and Mythic weapons instead of simply weakening Empyrean weapons.
So arguing over the validity if this issue should be addressed is pointless as the development team had already responded confirming recognition of the issue and that adjustments will be made. Please also do not turn this into a flame thread. It's saddening that while there's not much progress on community reps & development team responding on providing an update on planned date of implementation, that fellow posters are arguing and making assumptions of each others, calling names etc; it just turns out as a comedy show for SE associates to laugh at. With all respect my only intention is to remind whenever there are dev tracker posts, yet there is overlooking of status inquiry on this thread. Once again if any fellow players are annoyed by my impatience please excuse me ^^ /bow

[Bumbeen]

Are you christian?

[Dart]

take your stupid elsewhere plz.

[Bumbeen]

Have you seen this though?
http://www.speroforum.com/a/55122/Libelous-billboard-denouncing-abortion-in-New-Mexico

[Unctgtg]

Kiba I am in agreement with you, but these are forums. We can ask those trolls to leave but do you think they will.

[Kimble]

Please Devs, come in and say "We are still working on updating Relics" so they will drop it for awhile!

[Azagthoth]

Kiba I am in agreement with you, but these are forums. We can ask those trolls to leave but do you think they will.

This thread wouldn't exist for the relics/mythics that needed to be buffed prior to the addition of Empyrean weapons since the previous imbalance was apparently acceptable.

If this was just a relic/mythic buff thread I'm sure there wouldn't be as much opposition. Instead, the thread is basically, "My weapon is weaker than an Empyrean now, plz buff mine" pretending to be for a much nobler cause.

You're lucky that SE decided to buff the weapons the first time since other games would have left them behind.

[Bumbeen]

So did you see the latest game of thrones?

[DrStrangelove]

This thread wouldn't exist for the relics/mythics that needed to be buffed prior to the addition of Empyrean weapons since the previous imbalance was apparently acceptable.

Nope. Over the years there have been numerous complaints over the weakness of final heaven, blade: metsu, tachi:kaiten, metatron torment, not to mention complaints over the relic staff, club, axe and great sword, plus obviously most of the mythics for cost and performance. SE created this forum for discussion and it's weak to suggest that there were no complaints prior to the forum or empys.


If this was just a relic/mythic buff thread I'm sure there wouldn't be as much opposition. Instead, the thread is basically, "My weapon is weaker than an Empyrean now, plz buff mine" pretending to be for a much nobler cause. I'm sorry, but as I said above there were tons of complaints. The creation of over powered, painfully easy weapons to obtain exacerbated the above complaints: they did not create them. Moreover, what is it you're thinking: relic and mythic owners are supposed to pretend like empy's don't exist. How silly would that be: "Oh SE we want you to buff our weapons by 10%!" (although we know that MUCH easier to get weapons out damage us by 40%.)



You're lucky that SE decided to buff the weapons the first time since other games would have left them behind. Relevant? Who cares about other games? This forum is for FFXI, not other games. Stay on task. Do you think pup, cor, sch, dnc, bst, rng, whm, smn, and drg are "lucky" they got buffs just because in some games, certain jobs become obsolete? Do you think we are all lucky we got expansions because some games don't?

Think about? Customers have issues: SE has to decide if they want to accommodate them or possibly insult customers. Sure, they need to do this in the larger context of the game, but that still has to looked at.

This isn't luck! It's honest concern from customers over an issue that SE we think takes seriously. The worst way that SE could have replied was: "Hey you're lucky we even let you upgrade at all."

Luckily you aren't on their team. :o No disrespect intended. I've read many of your posts and agreed with many.

[Azagthoth]

The only constructive thread about relics.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/3658-Relic-Adjustments-The-balancing-act?highlight=Relics


Nope. Over the years there have been numerous complaints over the weakness of final heaven, blade: metsu, tachi:kaiten, metatron torment, not to mention complaints over the relic staff, club, axe and great sword, plus obviously most of the mythics for cost and performance. SE created this forum for discussion and it's weak to suggest that there were no complaints prior to the forum or empys.

I never said there weren't any complaints previously; however, as Kiba even stated specifically that the current balance is unacceptable, but was it acceptable before to him? It seems likely. There would be complaints, but if Empyrean weaposn never existed half these people probably wouldn't have even posted on these forums. There has only been one thread about upgrading Mythics and Relics that was truly constructive, which I'll post about this. It's reasonable to make suggestions to upgrade something and provide suggestions on how they can accomplish that, but I don't agree with saying "upgrade my weapon, because X. Weapon is better than mine since mine took longer to make". The difficulty level is the same.

There's a lot of content in the game that previously took copious amounts of time that you can breeze through now. One example being CoP: the reward is the same, but it takes a lot less time to complete now and took even more time to complete before the initial nerf. Is it fair to say that the people that had a more difficult time deserve a better reward, but that's ultimately not the case. I want relics and more so mythics to be buffed, but not because of some whiny kids with entitlement issues.



This isn't luck! It's honest concern from customers over an issue that SE we think takes seriously. The worst way that SE could have replied was: "Hey you're lucky we even let you upgrade at all."

I just wanted to trim things down a bit, so I'm only going to quote you on this. Coming out with a new expansion that completely replaces any current gear is actually a very sucessful business model if you look at World of Warcraft. It gives all types of players new gear to work towards and allows them to continue to develop their characters.

That's one of the things I like about FFXI--you get the best piece of gear for a particular slot and it usually stays that way aside from sidegrades. From an accomplishment point of view this works; however, it doesn't really do a good job at retaining players--players get bored once they're capped out on their respective tier content.

Either way, I hope the buff does more to make the lesser desired relics/mythics more of a priority in players' minds.

[Unctgtg]

Come on SE

[Kiba]

Come on SE
Community Reps, Development Team:

We are trying to be as humble as possible with inquiring on when we can expect adjustments to relic and mythic weapons implemented. Please answer us. It has been 6 weeks since the last version update, which we initially followed up on since it was announced in March yet no status was given after the update.

Thank you kindly for your courtesy and assistance communicating information from the Development Team. /bow

[Azagthoth]

I figured this would be common sense, but common sense isn't the same for everybody. It should be clear by now that the Community Team has read this thread, but they don't have information on the subject available yet.

I'm sure the Community Team doesn't appreciate the fact that you're stalking them around demanding and answer and also continuously demanding an answer on this thread. When Raxiaz asked the Community Team about his thread it was at least on topic.

[Kiba]

I figured this would be common sense, but common sense isn't the same for everybody. It should be clear by now that the Community Team has read this thread, but they don't have information on the subject available yet.

I'm sure the Community Team doesn't appreciate the fact that you're stalking them around demanding and answer and also continuously demanding an answer on this thread. When Raxiaz asked the Community Team about his thread it was at least on topic.
Thank you for your input. Like I said before, all are just assumptions. I am certain as well this thread has been read, but really what does that entail?
If no information is available yet then what is so hard with just responding with
"Your inquiry has been forwarded to the development team. We don't have any information on this available at this time, however a status has been requested and an announcement will be made as soon as available"

And lastly As I recall the thread which he had asked to refer to another thead(Anonymous-kicking-in-LSes-Please-fix-this. ) was "[To the Devs] Any plans on upgrading linkshells to Guilds with special guild skills?"
Guild Skills and Problem with Linkshell Fucntion I wouldn't term those as the same although both relate to linkshell. So what I did was just benchmarking another fellow players action that was successful in hope to receive the same success. Seriously though, after doing it the second time I am tired of not the same common courtesy and will not do that again.

[Unctgtg]

I figured this would be common sense, but common sense isn't the same for everybody. It should be clear by now that the Community Team has read this thread, but they don't have information on the subject available yet.

I'm sure the Community Team doesn't appreciate the fact that you're stalking them around demanding and answer and also continuously demanding an answer on this thread. When Raxiaz asked the Community Team about his thread it was at least on topic.

We aren't stalking but when they answer and post on silly things like when can we see mounted transportation past chocos its pretty lame, and when 5 of them answer and comment within 30min in the same post, kinda really pisses me off. All they have to do is say, yes we are working on it, no we don't have an update at this time.

[Unctgtg]

ZBumppie for SE to remember

[Vold]

If no information is available yet then what is so hard with just responding with
"Your inquiry has been forwarded to the development team. We don't have any information on this available at this time, however a status has been requested and an announcement will be made as soon as available"

Because if they do it just one time it will very obviously give you the green light to continue to hound them periodically to demand an update. If they haven't responded again by now it means that they won't or can't. You obviously learned patience somewhere down the line by obtaining a relic. I strongly suggest you invoke it once more. Several months of waiting, with soon to be casual lol Empyreans to tide you the frick over, is not too much to ask of people who spent years chasing their relic weapons. Not to mention that they know just as well as I if that they were to respond with anything but a positive answer it'll only get them more whining about how many months have passed and that they're slacking and etc etc etc. If there isn't a positive cheery response to be had, it is better not to say anything at all. And god forbid SE reps do anything but talk business around these forums which people seem to think that's all it's meant to be.

This thread has been dead for a long time now. People continue to bump it regardless that SE has asked them not to do it. This thread should be locked. It no longer has any purpose but to be bumped by a few of the three-four thousand-ish people who own relics that feel entitled to come before the other several hundred thousand players. This thread is nothing but flame material now. The universal laws of forum moderation dictates this thread be locked.

[Kiba]

My conclusion based on lack of response has been our community reps in the NA forums here have not been attentive with inquiries on this thread to relay to the development team. I have decided today to give up since it is no use touching base on this when they are just ignoring. Therefore I have posted in the JP forums instead:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/543-%E3%83%AC%E3%83%AA%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF%E3%81%A8%E3%83%9F%E3%82%B7%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF%E3%81%AE%E5%BC%B7%E5%8C%96%E3%82%92%EF%BC%81?p=130229&viewfull=1#post130229

[Unctgtg]

Ah ok, are they answering over there in their forums?

[Kiba]

Ah ok, are they answering over there in their forums?
no idea, but I have just lost confidence over here. On the JP forums the thread is very active with discussion of their ideas on what adjustments would be useful. We will see, maybe Foxclon and JP community Reps are more attentive and understanding.

[Kimble]

Nah, they have the same info to give you, which is what was said awhile ago in this thread, they are aware of the issue, and will be looking at ways to adjust it.

For all you know, the adjustment could be the upgrade it gets at the 95 trial.

[Unctgtg]

I have a feeling we are going to get a 50% boost at 95

[Azagthoth]

You're even going to harass them on the Japanese forum now? I don't see why you expect any level of courtesy from them when you're being nothing but disrespectful and attempted to hide it with your verbiage.

[Sama]

I have a feeling we are going to get a 50% boost at 95

Even with 100% boost it's still... lol/cry... forget it relic ws is really... meh...

[Kimble]

most relic WS were always pretty bad

[Dart]

i'd say about half and half, back when hate actually mattered, the utility that namas/coro granted was invaluable for mobs that mattered, now that those types of mobs are actually gone yea they are pretty blah now.

final heaven, knights of the round, i'm not even going to try and remember how to spell relic lance's relic ws, are pretty bad. The rest for the mainstay jobs (not including club, staff, or axe), all have their uses/niches. a 50% boost to them would make them definitely in contention for outside abyssea if content out there ever becomes truly relevant again.

I've been an avid advocate for bumping the 5% odd and odt to 25-30% for relics and give this to mythics, across the board. It would let them be comparable melee dmg wise to empy (lets face it empy weapons keep their AM up fulltime so I don't think putting it fulltime on relic/mythic would break anything) and further strengthening relic/mythic ws via magian trials would all add up to make them definitely in contention with empy. Actually this would probably push mythic lance to the top of the dd world inside abyssea and beat ukon.

honestly i don't see any way to make relic/mythic for h2h and gaxe comparable to ukon and vereth. Victory Smite and ukko's broke much of the balance lol.

[Coldbrand]

Becuase the developers can never, ever go in and change the formula for the WS itself. Nope, no sir. They'll "NEVER" be able to compete.

[Atomic_Skull]

i'd say about half and half, back when hate actually mattered, the utility that namas/coro granted was invaluable for mobs that mattered, now that those types of mobs are actually gone yea they are pretty blah now.

final heaven, knights of the round, i'm not even going to try and remember how to spell relic lance's relic ws, are pretty bad. The rest for the mainstay jobs (not including club, staff, or axe), all have their uses/niches. a 50% boost to them would make them definitely in contention for outside abyssea if content out there ever becomes truly relevant again.

I've been an avid advocate for bumping the 5% odd and odt to 25-30% for relics and give this to mythics, across the board. It would let them be comparable melee dmg wise to empy (lets face it empy weapons keep their AM up fulltime so I don't think putting it fulltime on relic/mythic would break anything) and further strengthening relic/mythic ws via magian trials would all add up to make them definitely in contention with empy. Actually this would probably push mythic lance to the top of the dd world inside abyssea and beat ukon.

honestly i don't see any way to make relic/mythic for h2h and gaxe comparable to ukon and vereth. Victory Smite and ukko's broke much of the balance lol.

Sure there is:

Get rid of the +25% WS damage (which is an inelegant hack anyway)

Increase the damage multiplier of all relic WS by 1.5 for 1H relics and 1.0 for 2H relics.

Relics WS are now an automatic critical hit.

All relic WS recieve the same x2.0 cRatio bonus that Tachi: Kasha has.

Boost the strength of the aftermath effects.

Increase the proc rate on triple and double damage from 5% to 20%

[Unctgtg]

Sure there is:

Get rid of the +25% WS damage (which is an inelegant hack anyway)

Increase the damage multiplier of all relic WS by 1.5 for 1H relics and 1.0 for 2H relics.

Relics WS are now an automatic critical hit.

All relic WS recieve the same x2.0 cRatio bonus that Tachi: Kasha has.

Boost the strength of the aftermath effects.

Increase the proc rate on triple and double damage from 5% to 20%

Lets change that a little bit.

Increase the damage multiplier of all relic WS by 1.5 for 1H relics and 2.5 for 2H relics.

Increase the proc rate on triple and double damage from 5% to 30%

[Atomic_Skull]

Lets change that a little bit.

Increase the damage multiplier of all relic WS by 1.5 for 1H relics and 2.5 for 2H relics.

And we can rename them from Relic weapons to Munchkin weapons in the same update.

You're not going to get a 2H relic WS with an fTP in the 5.0-5.5 range *and* critical damage. Ukko's Fury is fTP 2.0 and 2 hits (or effectively fTP 3.0). So 5.25 critical damage on a DMG 140 weapon just isn't happening. The game would implode if they did that.

But what you really mean is that you want 2H relics to be better than 1H by a wide margin rather than having them do essentially similar damage. 2H relics have very high base damage, they don't need as much of an fTP boost as the 1H relics.

If they add 1.5 to 1H and 1.0 to 2H that would mean that 1H WS would all become fTP 4.25 - 4.5 and 2H WS would become fTP 3.75 - 4.0 depending on the WS. The 2H weapons all have much higher base DMG than the 1H weapons so the WS damage would be in the same ballpark with the 2H WS being on average still somewhat higher damage than the 1H WS thanks to the higher base damage of the weapons.

[Dart]

i'll split the difference with you and myself on our 30% and 20% and go for 25% odd and odt.

Personally i can't see why a dagger and a gaxe, gun, scythe, gkatana should do "about the same" dmg ws wise. It just doesn't seem "right" to me.

also making relic ws able to crit is something that i've wanted all along but after a very long discussion with a couple friends I took that out thinking it might be too much on top of everything else we've been asking for.

True just putting 25% more dmg on ws is inelegant but i'm at the point that I'd take any boost that I can get. In a perfect world where they plan to truly fix everything then I completely agree with what you propose, but this is SE we're talking about. I just want some type of fix to make all my work relevant again.

[Atomic_Skull]

i'll split the difference with you and myself on our 30% and 20% and go for 25% odd and odt.

Personally i can't see why a dagger and a gaxe, gun, scythe, gkatana should do "about the same" dmg ws wise. It just doesn't seem "right" to me.

If you're going to go there then Annihilator should be the highest damage weapon in the game by a very, very, very wide margin. Gun should massively beat everything if you're trying to be "realistic".

But that would make one job/weapon much better than all others and we don't want that because it isn't fun for the other 17 jobs. So instead we shrug and say "well it's a game where midgets throw fireballs at monsters so screw reality" and make things balanced instead.

[Dart]

well played, but still avoiding the point lol

[Atomic_Skull]

well played, but still avoiding the point lol

No I covered that point and you simply missed it. I guess I'll have to spell it out for you.

If balance will be harmed by realism then realism should be shown the door. It's as simple as that.

You should not spend the amount of effort to obtain a relic and yet still be behind someone else. Therefore making relic holders generally equal is the best solution. Relics WS should be better than everything else but about equal to each other for this reason.

[Unctgtg]

No I covered that point and you simply missed it. I guess I'll have to spell it out for you.

If balance will be harmed by realism then realism should be shown the door. It's as simple as that.

You should not spend the amount of effort to obtain a relic and yet still be behind someone else. Therefore making relic holders generally equal is the best solution. Relics WS should be better than everything else but about equal to each other for this reason.

And two handed relics (guns/bows including) should be better then the one handers.

[Dart]

sorry but your reason for all relic's being equal doesn't wash, it hasn't since you first mentioned it. Speaking condescending to others doesn't change the fact that it just doesn't wash with me and most relic holders that I've talked with.

[DebbieGibson]

You know what else doesn't seem right. That the mob doesn't die after one swing. After all if you stab it in the head with a dagger or chop it off with a gaxe, it's going to be dead after the first hit.

[Atomic_Skull]

And two handed relics (guns/bows including) should be better then the one handers.

No they should not because balance between jobs is more important than realism. One job should not be 100% superior to another. Look at the current situation with RNG if you need an example of why this is bad.

If 2H relics are vastly superior to 1H relics as your suggestion would make them then why would anyone ever upgrade anything but a 2H relic? Upgrading a 1H relic like Kikoku would be wasting your time and gil for a greatly inferior end result.

Now if 2H weapons had higher WS damage but 1H relics made up for that in some other way then balance would still be maintained.

Fine, 2H relics get higher WS damage as per your suggestion and 1H weapons get Occasionally Attacks Twice on top of their normal OTD. Lower WS damage but higher DPS and TP generation. Balance is maintained.

[Camate]

Apologies for making you wait for some more info on this topic.

You might be surprised, but even though the July version update has just taken place, the dev. team has already begun work on the next version update and we checked with the lead dev. about the latest status.

There are currently no changes to the adjustment plans that were announced previously. Based on this, we are planning to add continuations to Trial of the Magians for relic/mythic/empyrean weapons to go along with the level cap increase.

We took a look at all the requests for stats on relics and mythics and understand your ideas, so in addition to enhancing the original DMG and special stats, we are checking to see whether we can add some special properties to them. (Currently, exactly what those properties will be and how they will be added is still up in the air.)

[MarkovChain]

Since Empyreans got a weapon skill @ level 85 I think it would be wise to add a specific weapon skill at 95 for relic and a job ability (or a new aftermath) for myhtics.

[Kimble]

Relics get a specific ws at 75. You think they should get two? >_>

[xbobx]

Adding more specific weapon weaponskills is just stupid. All it does is keep separating the people that have no lives from the casuals. It was already bad that there are jobs that suck unless they get a specific WoE or Emp ws, then they are good. All that work just to be on par with other jobs. I hope at 99 they will allow all jobs to have the new ws, which will help balance out some of the jobs so all jobs have a crit based ws

[Ryanx]

relic need a big boost tho they should easy be able to do double the dmg u can do with a empyrian u can get in a week relic takes like 1-3 years

[MarkovChain]

All it does is keep separating the people that have no lives from the casuals.

I don't see the problem as long as casual players are getting content as well. Also, in case you just came back from Mars, dynamis coins farming is very doable by casual players.

[Eadieni]

Mythics are the ones that really need some help. Screw relic holders, Mythics were never king and took way more effort.

They should just make Relics easier now, the same way they nerfed Thief Knife and Kraken Club to be more attainable. Like reduce the currency required by 90% (1760 coins instead of 17600), its not a challenge its a time sink. Time sinks don't make you badass they show how you weigh your video game with your real life.

What about the people who get free level 90 relics from Mog Bonanza?

[MarkovChain]

Relics get a specific ws at 75. You think they should get two? >_>

You are getting enhances counter IV so why not Final Heaven II ? It's all about internet pixels (and replacing a number by another in the code)

[Kimble]

You are getting enhances counter IV so why not Final Heaven II ? It's all about internet pixels.

Since relics got a WS damage boost at 90 (25% I think it was?), they already got "Final Heaven II" basically.

[MarkovChain]

They didn't anything beside damage+stats boost.

[Qtipus]

Biggest thing that needs to happen with relics is to have their aftermaths re-evaluated/overhauled. Mythics and Emp aftermaths are just a flat type. Relics have something unique to each of their aftermaths that range from completely useless (Gungnir) to completely overpowered (Scythe).

[Kimble]

They didn't anything beside damage+stats boost.

at 90, relics got a 25% boost to their respective weapon skills while mythics got a 15% boost to their respective weapon skills.

So yes, they basically have the "II" version of their WS.

[Ravenmore]

Biggest thing that needs to happen with relics is to have their aftermaths re-evaluated/overhauled. Mythics and Emp aftermaths are just a flat type. Relics have something unique to each of their aftermaths that range from completely useless (Gungnir) to completely overpowered (Scythe).

This, since that added effects were what either made the relic the very best or meh not worth the effort for the gain(or a dumb a$$ agi mod >.>).

[Bumbeen]

SE, please don't listen to any of these people on the official forums for ideas about relic weapon adjustments. I much prefer your judgement over theirs.

[Kimble]

Just dont listen to Pchan and we should be golden.

[Qtipus]

The mods I'm not worried about for the most part. A lot of WS with crappy mods can be overcome by high amounts of STR/DEX/Att/Acc. Sure, Geirskogul having an AGI mod is about as useful as a one-legged man in a butt-kicking contest, but it doesn't break the WS or make it completely useless.

One of the biggest reasons mythics never really took hold, outside of the whole alexandrite thing, is because you could quest the WS. It speaks volumes that Drakesbane kicks the crap out of Geirskogul and Camlann's Torment. Don't get me wrong, DRG needed a WS like Drakesbane anyway to be in the DD discussion, but it just goes to show that despite the ease of acquisition involved with Emps and the overpowered WS a few of them have, there are WS in both Relic and Mythic categories that overshadow the Emps.

If the end goal is balance for these 3 categories of uber-weapons, they aren't really that far off, at least from an individual standpoint. From a time-needed-to-get standpoint, yeah emps are way too easy to get. My linkshell spent every event dedicated to getting every member at least one Emp. Fourteen Emps completed in a month and a half. Took us nearly 3 years going into Dynamis as often as we could, often splitting up zones for coin farming to finish that many relics prior to the changes.

[uptempo]

Really nice to here you are still planning to adjust relic weapons, a overhaul of the haste aftermath on apoc changing it from gear haste would be a good start. I look forward to hearing some more news when its available.

[Unctgtg]

They probably will give us another 25% boost at 95 and another at 99 with more damage

[Sama]

They probably will give us another 25% boost at 95 and another at 99 with more damage

Comparing 85 Kannagi and 90 Kikoku, regardless in or outside aby, kannagi beat kikoku any-ways you name it except the silly base dmg... I don't have a emp scythe to compare with but even they boost another 100% of relic ws it's still no match to emp whatsoever.

Just from my experience, the dmg done from emp ws almost ignore the level of the enemy. Unlike relic ws is still bonded by the tradition ws method. By simply adding percentage to relic ws dmg output will only make it look good on low level mob and I have yet to see any difference on high level mob, or have you? Did the 25% make a difference? You think so or just because SE said so?

I'm glad the moogle reply but I still got a sense that SE is playing around with left-over relic owner because they felt sore and crying all the time like myself.

[wish12oz]

Comparing 85 Kannagi and 90 Kikoku, regardless in or outside aby, kannagi beat kikoku any-ways you name it except the silly base dmg... I don't have a emp scythe to compare with but even they boost another 100% of relic ws it's still no match to emp whatsoever.

Just from my experience, the dmg done from emp ws almost ignore the level of the enemy. Unlike relic ws is still bonded by the tradition ws method. By simply adding percentage to relic ws dmg output will only make it look good on low level mob and I have yet to see any difference on high level mob, or have you? Did the 25% make a difference? You think so or just because SE said so?

I'm glad the moogle reply but I still got a sense that SE is playing around with left-over relic owner because they felt sore and crying all the time like myself.

Kannagi is the only empyrean that is always better then its relic and mythic counterparts.
THE ONLY ONE.
Even Ukon is outparsed by its relic counterpart on high tier voidwatch mobs, AND it gives -20% damage taken! And higher tier NMs is the type of stuff SE is going to be adding now that abyssea is over, you all need to get over the idea that relics are broken and weak, because they are not, only 1 is completely terrible compared to its empyrean counterpart, Kikoku, and ninja is a dead job for anything slightly difficult, so it doesn't even matter unless they fix ninja.

[Alhanelem]

They didn't anything beside damage+stats boost.
Which is what "Relic WS II" would be anyway.

[Insaniac]

Even Ukon is outparsed by its relic counterpart on high tier voidwatch mobs, AND it gives -20% damage taken! I would love to see this parse and/or math.

[Coldbrand]

Apologies for making you wait for some more info on this topic.

You might be surprised, but even though the July version update has just taken place, the dev. team has already begun work on the next version update and we checked with the lead dev. about the latest status.

There are currently no changes to the adjustment plans that were announced previously. Based on this, we are planning to add continuations to Trial of the Magians for relic/mythic/empyrean weapons to go along with the level cap increase.

We took a look at all the requests for stats on relics and mythics and understand your ideas, so in addition to enhancing the original DMG and special stats, we are checking to see whether we can add some special properties to them. (Currently, exactly what those properties will be and how they will be added is still up in the air.)

Please don't ignore me, can you at least acknolwedge there are a small number of empyreans which need tweaking as well? Dagger will suck compared to an upgraded Mandau, I'd really like to be using Camlann's Torment as my main WS when I finish this lance, and everyone trashes Scythe, Wildfire users will suffer when abyssea is no longer the main content badly etc.. Please can I get an answer?

Surely you've seen my posts on this topic across the general board? The key point I'll reiterate though, whatever weapon you make, the new WS that comes with it should become your new main WS, whatever it takes to make that happen. (10% armor ignore on camlann's is a joke when wheeling is 50, though I still don't even think that change would tie it with drakesbane, and it should be better, not tied(in the hands of a rhongomiant owner obviously, ryunohige drakesbane is obviously tier 1 and should be.))

Please, please answer about the tiny number of empyreans that need tweaking (not all of them are almace/ukon/verethragna.)

Edit: One idea for Camlann's: gradually stacking armor reduction buff capping at a certain point (obviously higher than angon to be worthwhile) preferably with repeated use refreshing the duration. Still, then it'd just be niche, I really wish these weapons just used their WS as their new mains universally. Feels like bad design otherwise.

[Kimble]

Wildfire is still a good WS outside of abyssea so not sure how you think we will "suffer"

[Coldbrand]

Wildfire is still a good WS outside of abyssea so not sure how you think we will "suffer"

Without MAB atma and fire affinity atma its damage falls pretty radically. It'll be gimpy compared to annihilator most likely. Yet doesn't offer the same amount of -enmity (only for the WS itself), Camate himself said he wanted these weapons to be evenly balanced (which would have mean with their own pros and cons mostly likely.)

[Metalgod]

Guess I'll throw in my 2cents:

empyreans: Only get base dmg increase and minor boost in attack up to 99

Mythics: New additional latent @95: Critical attack rate +15% @99 +20%
New addition to aftermath: regain -- 100 to 199 = 1 tick 200 to 299 = 2 tick 300 = 3 tick @ 95 @99 2/3/5 ticks

Relic: New additional latent @95: Critical attack rate +25% @99 +30%
New addition to aftermath: regain -- 100 to 199 = 2 tick 200 to 299 = 3 tick 300 = 5 tick @ 95 @99 5/7/10 ticks

this is in addition to the already known enhancements the weapons will receive

[wish12oz]

I would love to see this parse and/or math.

Metatron from 90 bravura does more than Ukkos without crits, which you wont be capped ddex on high tier NMs so you wont get lots of crits, and you don't have all that +crit damage you have in abyssea, and with bravura you can use meat and keep capped acc on such mobs, with ukon you have to give up a bit to keep acc capped. That tips everything into Bravuras favor for hard NMs. If they gave us razed ruins all the time, Ukon would win, but for hard mobs, outside abyssea, Bravura is SLIGHTLY better damage, and makes you take 20% less damage so it ends up being vastly superior.

[Coldbrand]

Giving regain is annoying for people who have worked their butts off to get 5 or 6 hit setups etc. It won't really do anything for those players.

I'm already disliking where this thread is going like empyrean owners are some criminals who deserve nothing for their hard work.

[Qtipus]

Emps aren't hard work. When you can finish 14 of them in a month and a half like our linkshell did, that's not hard. That's what I call a gift. Even now, SE has gone out of their way to make acquiring said Emps easier (re: Guku, Tunga, etc KIs in gold boxes, more gold boxes/zone, multiple ???s for the NMs themselves) and it was a month and half to do 14 of them before those changes. From a time comparison standpoint, Relics and Mythics are infinitely "harder" than emps. Doesn't mean the process involved in getting the upgrade items isn't as monotonous, just means you're not having to deal with the monotony anywhere near as long.

As for regain, if someone busted their ass getting a 5 or 6 hit build, they busted it to WS faster, right? Wouldn't regain facilitate that and why would they be annoyed?

[Staren]

I just dont understand how se can think the mythic requirements are viable. 30,000 Alexandrite when you get on average 20 to 30 max a run (averaging out runs where boss drops purse and runs with crap alex and normal runs). Thats 1000 runs. At one run a day it will take 2 years 9 months and 3 weeks and a day of doing salvage every day on your own. I think asking for that kind of effort when as someone posted earlier 14 empyreans can be done in a month is ridiculous. Especially after SE has pretty much killed off linkshells and promoted low man salvage like parties people dont have the resources to do this reasonably. Most everyone who does salvage saves the alex anyways for their own mythic. So not being willing to lower the requirement and not increasing drop rates tells every person who wants a mythic you expect day after day dedication for 3 years of their life. I dont know any other game with that type of work required and in the twilight of this games life it seems extreme to expect that. I really hope you will come to your sense and reconsider.

[Coldbrand]

Emps aren't hard work. When you can finish 14 of them in a month and a half like our linkshell did, that's not hard. That's what I call a gift. Even now, SE has gone out of their way to make acquiring said Emps easier (re: Guku, Tunga, etc KIs in gold boxes, more gold boxes/zone, multiple ???s for the NMs themselves) and it was a month and half to do 14 of them before those changes. From a time comparison standpoint, Relics and Mythics are infinitely "harder" than emps. Doesn't mean the process involved in getting the upgrade items isn't as monotonous, just means you're not having to deal with the monotony anywhere near as long.

As for regain, if someone busted their ass getting a 5 or 6 hit build, they busted it to WS faster, right? Wouldn't regain facilitate that and why would they be annoyed?

Not everyone has a setup going for them where they can reach that level of efficiency and you're thinking unrealistically if you think that's how it is. Technically you could finish the relic in the blink of an eye if you had capped gil ready and waiting. That doesn't mean relics aren't hard. Also, don't ignore the NM stage (many of them are glitched to hell and take like 16 hours) and the HORRIBLE VNM stage that's unfun incarnate. But whatever, empyrean owners do nothing to earn their weapons in your mind, I forgot. Also, there's SO much fighting involved in getting a relic now'a'days. Sit and craft then go fight a floating weapon and some fomors. Big whoop.

I'm working on Excalibur too and there's none of the frustration or drama involved, it's all very clear what has to be done to finish it. I don't pay 140,000 gil (only 1 NM by the way, not the full popset or even close) thinking I'll get 2 buds just to get 1 and don't have to compete with 2 or 3 other people for my o pieces. I can't go buy these chloris leaf buds, unless you want to count paying like 500k to get one popset done, which isn't very logical. Not to mention the way people treat eachother when FCing the bats.

But nope, everyone has a full party of emp owners and has it down to a science, we're all the most elite endgame LS in the game who you're referencing and don't have to take turns working on other peoples weapons.

I love how relic owners think Empyreans should just be completely overlooked in this set of buffs just because of ukon/almace/vere when its obvious some of the formulas for certain empyrean WS need tweaking to be worth a damn and not just have the weapon exist for double damage aftermath.

[Andrien]

Old content from dynamis should never be considered the best weapons for so many years in my opinion. Out with the old in with the new they say. Can only wait and see.

[MarkovChain]

but for hard mobs, outside abyssea, Bravura is SLIGHTLY better damage, and makes you take 20% less damage so it ends up being vastly superior.

Lolz. Only BG trolls would think that taking 20% less damage is anywhere close to "vastly superior" seeing as outside of abyssea cure V systematically caps your HP, and cure VI, well... lol. 20% HP boost would be interesting but 20% damage taken who cares, unless you make it a point curing with a PLD or something retarded.

WHM makes any kind of defensive of min/maxing useless unless mobs can one shot you systematically. Secondly the current content of outside is easy super easy (dynamis) or super useless (void watch, useless rewards = ZNM II).

[Jerynh]

Old content from dynamis should never be considered the best weapons for so many years in my opinion. Out with the old in with the new they say. Can only wait and see.

So what would happen to all the players that spent all that time getting their relics? Fk them? Nice.

[Zyeriis]

Old content from dynamis should never be considered the best weapons for so many years in my opinion. Out with the old in with the new they say. Can only wait and see.
New content: Level 90 versions of those weapons.

Get over it, they should be better under your own argument, because they're new. They also take more effort/time.

inb4 the stale "no, everyone just buys gil to get them" so-called "argument".

[MarkovChain]

So what would happen to all the players that spent all that time getting their relics? Fk them? Nice.

The same that will happen to the players that spent all that time getting an empyrean. They will get baseline improvements that make all weapons on par (mythic/relics/empyrean) and release new content that will invalidate anything you did so far. AF3 will also be thrown to the trash obviously, plus they already hinted toward this by saying they want to force players to farm various situational gear in the next endgame events.

[wish12oz]

Lolz. Only BG trolls would think that taking 20% less damage is anywhere close to "vastly superior" seeing as outside of abyssea cure V systematically caps your HP, and cure VI, well... lol. 20% HP boost would be interesting but 20% damage taken who cares, unless you make it a point curing with a PLD or something retarded.

WHM makes any kind of defensive of min/maxing useless unless mobs can one shot you systematically. Secondly the current content of outside is easy super easy (dynamis) or super useless (void watch, useless rewards = ZNM II).

OMGZ 1 weapon does more damage then another and gives -20% damage, its totally junk right? GTFO trollchan.
Theres also lots of good drops from voidwatch, if you weren't so terrible at FFXI you would know that.

[Insaniac]

Metatron from 90 bravura does more than Ukkos without crits, which you wont be capped ddex on high tier NMs so you wont get lots of crits, and you don't have all that +crit damage you have in abyssea, and with bravura you can use meat and keep capped acc on such mobs, with ukon you have to give up a bit to keep acc capped. That tips everything into Bravuras favor for hard NMs. If they gave us razed ruins all the time, Ukon would win, but for hard mobs, outside abyssea, Bravura is SLIGHTLY better damage, and makes you take 20% less damage so it ends up being vastly superior.

Tilted logic. You are forgetting 30-50% ODD vs 5% ODD. On top of that.. a good Metatron does SLIGHTLY more than a non-crit Ukko's and Ukko's has an as yet to be nailed down crit rate bonus. I personally have seen almost every Emp and Relic in action in and outside of abyssea. Trust me Kannagi is not the only one that craps all over it's relic counterpart. FFS a lot of the relic WSs aren't even comparable to vanilla WSs. The only 2 emps that wouldn't use their WS 100% of the time are Axe and Polearm and the relic WSs for these weapons are as bad or worse than the emp ones.

Edit: Oh yeah dagger.

[Kluaf]

you can farm an empy weapon in a day or 2 even if you bought your gil like a retard you cudnt find enough currency to get a relic in that time and def not a mythic in a day or 2 either ... imo the empy shud b far less potent than it is compared to the relic and mythic weapons .... insted its almost the same and in most cases better to have the empy yall need to change that

[Bumbeen]

you can farm an empy weapon in a day or 2 even if you bought your gil like a retard you cudnt find enough currency to get a relic in that time and def not a mythic in a day or 2 either ... imo the empy shud b far less potent than it is compared to the relic and mythic weapons .... insted its almost the same and in most cases better to have the empy yall need to change that

That is true, it will still take you at least a month and probably two to get all the currency for a relic even if you have all the gil on hand.

[wish12oz]

Tilted logic.

Of course its tilted logic? It has to be a very specific set of circumstances for bravura to win, its just that those circumstances are probably about to become real common. And it's mainly the acc that pushes Bravura ahead.


You are forgetting 30-50% ODD vs 5% ODD.

No, I'm not forgetting ODD, and its also not that high for emps/low for relics


On top of that.. a good Metatron does SLIGHTLY more than a non-crit Ukko's

It doesn't average that much below Ukkos on very hard stuff.


and Ukko's has an as yet to be nailed down crit rate bonus.

It's 30% @ 100tp


I personally have seen almost every Emp and Relic in action in and outside of abyssea.

Most people with relics and empyreans aren't very good players, heck, most players aren't very good players. You'll forgive me if I ignore your my friend this and that, when I know very competant people and thats what Im basing this on.


Trust me Kannagi is not the only one that craps all over it's relic counterpart.

It is actually, there is no time ever when Kikoku is better then Kannagi, but I can give you a set of circumstances when every other empyrean isn't best.


FFS a lot of the relic WSs aren't even comparable to vanilla WSs. The only 2 emps that wouldn't use their WS 100% of the time are Axe and Polearm and the relic WSs for these weapons are as bad or worse than the emp ones.

No idea what you're saying here, but the lvl 90 relic WS's gain a 25% bonus to damage, and theyre all at least competitive with emp WS's at some point, except polearm, drakes bane is way to good compared to everything else offered.


Edit: Oh yeah dagger.

Mandau is always better then Twash, what about dagger?

[Atomic_Skull]

Kannagi is the only empyrean that is always better then its relic and mythic counterparts.
THE ONLY ONE.
Even Ukon is outparsed by its relic counterpart on high tier voidwatch mobs, AND it gives -20% damage taken! And higher tier NMs is the type of stuff SE is going to be adding now that abyssea is over, you all need to get over the idea that relics are broken and weak, because they are not, only 1 is completely terrible compared to its empyrean counterpart, Kikoku, and ninja is a dead job for anything slightly difficult, so it doesn't even matter unless they fix ninja.

Our Ukon WARs average 2200-3500k outside abyssea, not to mention double damage procs. You can keep repeating that relics are better outside Abyssea as much as you want but that won't make it true.

[Kenthedeviant]

Apologies for making you wait for some more info on this topic.

You might be surprised, but even though the July version update has just taken place, the dev. team has already begun work on the next version update and we checked with the lead dev. about the latest status.

There are currently no changes to the adjustment plans that were announced previously. Based on this, we are planning to add continuations to Trial of the Magians for relic/mythic/empyrean weapons to go along with the level cap increase.

We took a look at all the requests for stats on relics and mythics and understand your ideas, so in addition to enhancing the original DMG and special stats, we are checking to see whether we can add some special properties to them. (Currently, exactly what those properties will be and how they will be added is still up in the air.)

I"m not sure why we'd be surprised, as the roadmap for updates says that the level cap increase major version update is slated for august. Has this changed? Please update us as to whats going on, I'm sure hundreds of players woudl like to know.

[Garota]

Apologies for making you wait for some more info on this topic.

You might be surprised, but even though the July version update has just taken place, the dev. team has already begun work on the next version update and we checked with the lead dev. about the latest status.

There are currently no changes to the adjustment plans that were announced previously. Based on this, we are planning to add continuations to Trial of the Magians for relic/mythic/empyrean weapons to go along with the level cap increase.

We took a look at all the requests for stats on relics and mythics and understand your ideas, so in addition to enhancing the original DMG and special stats, we are checking to see whether we can add some special properties to them. (Currently, exactly what those properties will be and how they will be added is still up in the air.)

So I have understood all this is saying is,

"You'll never guess what! We're not going to deviate from that Road Map we showed you. So obviously, our dev. team hasn't bothered with making any adjustments to the acquisition of Mythic weapons. They're just going to focus on the suckers who put effort into making these weapons and the lucky bastards who are going to win them in the upcoming bonanza. Keep dreaming losers!"

[Kimble]

I think it was more that he meant that they are still planning to make changes to relics because people (Kiba mainly) kept posting in this thread every day whinning and crying about getting an update and assumed that SE had gone against their word and were no longer going to update relics.

[Bumbeen]

I cannot wait to see the changes. ***

[Karbuncle]

Our Ukon WARs average 2200-3500k outside abyssea, not to mention double damage procs.

could I ask you kindly, to please provide at few Parses to support this claim?

I ask because of two reasons,

1, I'm not a fan of eyeballing, and i hope someone making a bold claim would have evidence to support it, because Eyeballed averages rarely stack up to realistic parsing.

2, the bigger reason, I've been looking into Ukon and Bravura, any data related to them is appreciated.

Thank you in advanced. (if you have at least 10 separate parses it would be lovely, The larger data the better. outside abyssea content only, preferably Voidwatch)

[Insaniac]

Of course its tilted logic? It has to be a very specific set of circumstances for bravura to win, its just that those circumstances are probably about to become real common. And it's mainly the acc that pushes Bravura ahead.

What I mean is you are tilting things to try and make your point. My only experience fighting T4 voidwalkers is on DRG and I had 0 acc issues. But thats DRG so idk. I don't see our Almace PLDs having much trouble with acc either though.




No, I'm not forgetting ODD, and its also not that high for emps/low for relics
It's that high for emps and yes relics may be higher now. I haven't checked my mandau since the magian trials but it used to be 4-5%.




It doesn't average that much below Ukkos on very hard stuff.

It really does.




It's 30% @ 100tp

Well there you go. Add w/e crit+ gear you have on for probably around 40%and then factor in bloodrage. We both know a crit Ukko's destroys metatron and a non crit does pretty much the same. Not hard to figure out what WS is gonna avg higher.



Most people with relics and empyreans aren't very good players, heck, most players aren't very good players. You'll forgive me if I ignore your my friend this and that, when I know very competant people and thats what Im basing this on.Maybe your friends suck? I don't really need to take your word for it either. You aren't gonna change your mind no matter what I tell you I just like pointing out when people post nonsense.




It is actually, there is no time ever when Kikoku is better then Kannagi, but I can give you a set of circumstances when every other empyrean isn't best. Indulge me.




No idea what you're saying here, but the lvl 90 relic WS's gain a 25% bonus to damage, and theyre all at least competitive with emp WS's at some point, except polearm, drakes bane is way to good compared to everything else offered.At some point = almost never. If you own both in almost all situations you are gonna be using your emp. My point is a lot of relics don't even get to use their WS because there is a vanilla WS that everyone gets that is better but almost all emps get to use their WS in 99% of situations. With the ftp increase at 90 a lot of the relic WSs caught up with the standard WSs but how is that good? It's a step in the right direction but it's far from balanced.



Mandau is always better then Twash, what about dagger?

I forgot to add dagger to the list of emps that don't use their WS 100% of the time but that's because of the timers on SATA (<-and position requirements) and Climactic flourish so it's not really the same. Mandau doesn't get to MS 100% of the time either for the same reasons.

[Unctgtg]

Here is a novel concept, how about we wait til August when the new stuff comes out to see. NOONE saw the 25% damage increase coming for relics at level 90. Was only after someone got the 90 and tested it.

[Insaniac]

Here is a novel concept, how about we wait til August when the new stuff comes out to see. NOONE saw the 25% damage increase coming for relics at level 90. Was only after someone got the 90 and tested it.I agree. I'm not arguing anything other than emps are currently, as a whole, better than the whole of relics. Wish12oz says relics don't need more upgrades. I disagree. It doesn't really matter though since we were just told we are getting more.

[Unctgtg]

In my mind, a weapon that is 140 damage should be doing far more damage then a weapon that is 126, but this is ffxi where nothing is normal.