The necessary Paladin overhaul (Here you go S-E - I've fixed the job for you)

[Gallus]

Paladin in it's current state is useless. The job deals too little damage, does not generate enmity fast enough to keep up with other jobs, and really offers nothing to groups that other, more versatile jobs can. It's a one-trick pony that's run out of steam. So, the job clearly needs to be revised. I believe I can offer the solution to the situation.

Edit 5/13: Changed permanent enlight effect given with no shield equipped to a Bravery aura and reworked how I think light-based magic should be buffed without a shield equipped. Minor additional changes throughout the post. Nerfed an idea or two cause I thought I might have gone a little overboard in hindsight (regarding how changes would interact with other changes). I hope you'll find the ideas an interesting read.

The Cure to the Common, Crappy Paladin

First off, Paladin will need to be made more versatile. To fix that, I propose these two configurations depending on choice of gear (well, shield or no shield):

Paladin: The Support/Tank
From now on Paladin will be able to offer the party not only a tank that can grab and hold hate, but one that can support the party. While wielding a shield, Paladin will gain access to a support aura that will offer 2-tick regen, refresh, and regain to all party members in the general area (Paladin included), also, allies affected by aura will be subject to a rapid enmity decay affect. Additionally, Paladin will now be able to "stagger" monsters with their shield. A staggered monster sufferers from reduced evasion, defense, and becomes more susceptible to critical hits. The effect lasts 10 seconds. There is a chance of staggering on a successful shield block. The larger the shield, the more likely it is to stagger (likelihood varies 25~50%). Shield Bashes can trigger the effect and would be considered successful shield blocks for the sake of determining if they were successful in doing so. Alongside the enmity decay given by aura and job ability adjustments below, I think it's safe to say Paladin wouldn't have much of a problem holding hate along with being able to contribute to the party's efficiency, making it a more attractive job inside parties.

Paladin: The DD/Healer
So Paladin can offer more to their party as the tank, but what if the party doesn't need a dedicated tank? Perhaps the monster is dying so fast it doesn't matter? Well here's the fix for that. Paladin will now be able to fill the roll of a decent damage dealer (not a super-amazing DD) and bring their healing skills to the front lines to boot. When not wielding a shield, Paladin will gain access to a Bravery aura, providing a 10~15% damage buff to all standard and crit hits made by the Paladin and nearby allies. Additionally, the Paladin's light-based spells will be given double-potency (Enlight included) and a +25% cure potency. Cures will provide the targets with TP (3TP for Cure, 4TP for Cure 2, 5TP for Cure 3, 6TP for Cure 4).

So that covers the major changes to the job. As for the more minor, I think a new job ability and a few changes to existing ones will pretty much wrap up all that's needed to repair the Paladin job:

New Job Ability
Battle Chanting: The Paladin's spells do not interrupt battle-related actions. Additionally, they can't be interrupted through physical means. Recast timer of spells is doubled. 90 minute duration, 5 minute recast.

Job Ability Changes
Sentinel: Ability now heavily reduces the enmity of the next highest party member on the monster's enmity list and prevents their enmity gain for 20 seconds. Damage reduction and enmity gained by Paladin still applies. Reuse lowered to 1 minute, duration will be lowered to 7 seconds. (mathematically, 6 would appear better, as you'd be reducing the recast from 5 minutes to 1, however, I feel it would better balance out with the extra activations interrupting hits more often)

Rampart: When used, the Paladin absorbs 30% of all nearby allies' enmity. Enmity is compounded onto the Paladin. This compounded enmity can go over cap, however, quickly decays down (back to standard cap within 10 seconds). Magic damage reduction now quarters magic damage taken by all party members for the short duration. Reuse lowered to 45 seconds, duration of magic shield lowered to 3 seconds.

Shield Bash: Reuse lowered to 90 seconds. Damage can crit.

Oh, and here's a couple New Job Traits
Divine Protection: Cover no longer requires the Paladin stand in front of target to redirect damage.

Smite: When an enemy's HP is under 5%, the damage dealt by Paladin's light-based magic is multiplied 4x on the target (does not stack with the 2x mod given when no shield equipped - this will replace that mod in given scenarios).

This should pretty much do it. Nothing too over-the-top, but everything needed to breath life back into the job in ways that will not only benefit the player, but also their party members.

[Chiibi]

Hmm... interesting cant add anything to that but thanks for adding examples on how it would work

[Mara]

As far as abyssea goes, you COULD just get yourself an empyrean or WoE sword, PLD/NIN, offhand joytoy for TP gain, RR/GH/apoc atmas + full DD/haste gear and you'll be belting out ridiculous DD numbers with the mark or zorro. I regularly do 2k-3k dmg and can spike up to 5k. Honestly, the week I spent getting my badelaire+2 is the best thing I've ever done for my PLD. time much more than well spent. Rather than being a mediocre tank/backup healer, or a piss poor DD, I typically place in the top 3 DDs of an alliance now, and on things with a bit more oomph than XP mobs I can keep hate through sheer dmg alone if I need to. You don't need to ask SE to fix PLD, they already did, you've just been too lazy to do the work to obtain a sword with the single best WS SE has ever given to us.

And outside of abyssea CdC still does better dmg than any other WS we have, 1500-1700 with spikes up past 2k. If/when we go past abyssea into 90+ content the time investment for getting this sword/WS is not wasted. It is, without a doubt, the best thing that has happened to PLD in a very long time.

[Lyndonn]

2 a tick Regain to all party members will kill the hate also means if there is melee in that party they can spam more >.>

i wouldnt want Flash to be double Recast time because that is a paladins main Emnity gain Function in many events now.

id Prefer them to Raise emnity Cap or Create a move with Temp Freezes Hate gain from other jobs like 60 second Duration on a 5minute recast this should allow the Paladin to re establish hate

[Aeonk]

As far as abyssea goes, you COULD just get yourself an empyrean or WoE sword, PLD/NIN, offhand joytoy for TP gain, RR/GH/apoc atmas + full DD/haste gear and you'll be belting out ridiculous DD numbers with the mark or zorro. I regularly do 2k-3k dmg and can spike up to 5k. Honestly, the week I spent getting my badelaire+2 is the best thing I've ever done for my PLD. time much more than well spent. Rather than being a mediocre tank/backup healer, or a piss poor DD, I typically place in the top 3 DDs of an alliance now, and on things with a bit more oomph than XP mobs I can keep hate through sheer dmg alone if I need to. You don't need to ask SE to fix PLD, they already did, you've just been too lazy to do the work to obtain a sword with the single best WS SE has ever given to us.

And outside of abyssea CdC still does better dmg than any other WS we have, 1500-1700 with spikes up past 2k. If/when we go past abyssea into 90+ content the time investment for getting this sword/WS is not wasted. It is, without a doubt, the best thing that has happened to PLD in a very long time.
What she said. What she said 1000x over. CDC is the new Atonement (since the old Atonement is dead.) Only less gimmicky and higher dmg (and a brutally effective aftermath if you go for Almace instead of WoE.)

PLD as a job is not worthless. It just no longer has the "Easy Button" tanking that was joytoy Atonement spam. If you want to tank again, get an Almace or Baudelair. Because this "MNK tank" mentality is not going to go away post-abyssea.

[Karinya_of_Carbuncle]

If you want to tank again, get an Almace or Baudelair.

How is that any different from "If you want to tank, get a D-ring/Aegis/Burtgang"? Gear is not a substitute for job balance, especially gear that is by design exceptionally hard to obtain.

Now, if they make CdC questable like mythic WS, then that might be an answer (although even then, it's "tanking" by becoming yet another DD, which is a questionable solution -- even worse if you're also becoming an imitation blink tank at the same time, at that point there's really nothing left of PLD at all and you've "solved" the tanking imbalance by turning PLD into a clone of other blink tanking DD/NINs).

[Martel]

How is that any different from "If you want to tank, get a D-ring/Aegis/Burtgang"? Gear is not a substitute for job balance, especially gear that is by design exceptionally hard to obtain.

Certainly, gear is no substitute for game balance. But changing our gear, and play style, are all we can really do to improve our PLDs. And make them at least somewhat competitive. Getting CdC, and gearing for DD is currently about the only way PLD can fight against the skewed game mechanics. Correcting game balance is up to SE.

It's different from, "get a D-ring/Aegis/Burtgang" in that Badelaire+2 is entirely possible to get, even for a casual player. Its not an obnoxious statement telling you to do the impossible(or at least very difficult), its just good advice.


Now, if they make CdC questable like mythic WS, then that might be an answer (although even then, it's "tanking" by becoming yet another DD, which is a questionable solution -- even worse if you're also becoming an imitation blink tank at the same time, at that point there's really nothing left of PLD at all and you've "solved" the tanking imbalance by turning PLD into a clone of other blink tanking DD/NINs).

This isn't anything new. We've been just another DD/NIN tank on PLD for years. Atonement gave rise to the DD PLD. And that was a great time for PLD. But even then, people were already tanking things with DD/NIN, and finding it more efficient than PLD.

[Sekundes]

Open and read any post about PLD on any of the major forums and you will see argument after argument about what can be done to fix it but with the content we currently have in the game, there is no reason for a specialized tank. Any job that can deal enough damage to keep hate off the mages can be a tank just fine. The problem is dd's are tough enough, have enough hp, and have access to enough pdt, mdt and other such gear swaps to stay alive and because mp is less of an issue(even outside of abyssea) there isn't any need to mitigate damage anymore. Conserving mp and keeping the dd's alive is no longer an issue and thus PLD's job of keeping hate off of the dd's so they can keep dealing damage without dying is moot since they end up tanking most of the time and can do it just fine without exhausting party resources.

Fixing PLD would require content that NEEDS a PLD, where mp conservation and damage taken actually matter or giving PLD something that allows them to do something nothing else can. That or taking away dd's ability to survive so well, in and out of abyssea and honestly, I wouldn't really want the latter.

I think PLD can still be a great job if optimized but against dd's who know what they are doing, no PLD can keep hate off of them as the system currently stands.

I know everyone who loves PLD wants this fixed but we have to be very careful about how it is fixed to ensure a good game balance.

[Aeonk]

How is that any different from "If you want to tank, get a D-ring/Aegis/Burtgang"? Gear is not a substitute for job balance, especially gear that is by design exceptionally hard to obtain.

Now, if they make CdC questable like mythic WS, then that might be an answer (although even then, it's "tanking" by becoming yet another DD, which is a questionable solution -- even worse if you're also becoming an imitation blink tank at the same time, at that point there's really nothing left of PLD at all and you've "solved" the tanking imbalance by turning PLD into a clone of other blink tanking DD/NINs).
D ring/Aegis/Burtgang does nothing that you couldn't do with other gear pieces/sets. Mainly because, those are all defensive items and we're not struggling with that aspect of tanking.

Almace is an entirely different animal. CDC is such a radical change in dmg output that actually, yes it DOES in fact make up for job balance (or inbalance one might say.) And the main difference between what you listed and an empyrean, is that Almace/Baudelair are completely feasible to get. It doesn't take you a year of repetitive runs and/or millions of gil, it just takes a week or 2.

It's ironic that you mention making it questable like mythic WS's, because I'd say it would take roughly the same time to climb from floor 0 to 100 in nyzul as it would to do all the NM/VNM's and at least finish stage 1 of an empyrean.

As for making it a clone of a DD/NIN... that's the way hate works. Not much I can do for you there, but I'm sure even you abused the hell out of Atonement back when it was good. How is me abusing CDC to achieve the same result more efficiently all of a sudden make PLD an imitation of a "real" DD?

Besides, dealing good dmg doesn't take away from other things that make PLD a PLD. We can still wear shields while DD'ing, we can still cure, can still cover, and still have our "OSHIT" job abilities/gear sets.

Nothing about PLD has changed. We hold hate the same way we did before, we just have to use a different means to achieve the same end. If you don't like the aspect that we blink tank now (even though we've been doing that forever now...), I suggest an Ochain. Ochain > /NIN sub for most things. But that shield, despite how godly it is, isn't going to help you hold hate off the MNK in your alliance.

[Orenwald]

give PLD a job trait at 75 that makes them gain enmity for taking damage instead of lose it, and make "Reduces enmity when taking physical damage" to "Enhances <the name of that job trait>" ... That'd fix PLD something nasty

[Martel]

I think, at best, we might hope for a Enmity loss reduction trait. Outright reversing that mechanic is pretty broken I'd say.

[Sonshou]

Allow PLD to do Crowd control by straight tanking multiple enemies! from the past, BLM/RDM are key to all events becoz they're the only job to do crowd control by sleeping them. There is no alternative to keep mobs asleep as mean of crowd control. PLD lacks the ability to provoke or draw hate from mobs in area.

Allow PLD to gain area effect spells or ability, then they can do crowd control in battles, especially in enemy stronghold where enemies roaming around, or when party need to constantly on the move. In that way Paladin can shine without losing their characteristic of being high defence low offence.

[Orenwald]

Honestly, reversing them would be the only way for a PLD to keep up with a ridiculously geared DD, like any DD in full AF3+2 >< lol

[Martel]

Really, you don't have to keep up with said DDs. The best anyone can do is cap hate, then maintain it. Its not like they can get ahead of you once you're both at the hate cap. But you can't keep it from bouncing to whoever acted last either. Which is not exactly a resounding endorsement for PLD, but that's the way it is.

[kitykat]

Allow PLD to do Crowd control by straight tanking multiple enemies! from the past, BLM/RDM are key to all events becoz they're the only job to do crowd control by sleeping them. There is no alternative to keep mobs asleep as mean of crowd control. PLD lacks the ability to provoke or draw hate from mobs in area.

Allow PLD to gain area effect spells or ability, then they can do crowd control in battles, especially in enemy stronghold where enemies roaming around, or when party need to constantly on the move. In that way Paladin can shine without losing their characteristic of being high defence low offence.

Voke-ga? I dont have a PLD leveled, my boyfriend does. He's always saying though that to fix PLD they have to be able to hold enmity. This needs fixed majorly.. but voke-ga..AOE voke WOULD be cool.. imo but im a WHM. I miss the WHM+PLD working relationship =P

[Sagian]

Remove enmity caps completely (or make them so large as to be impossible) and adjust (or add to) Paladin's enmity control abilities.

I have no problem with maintaining or reclaiming hate on IT mobs until someone else caps their enmity. Then it's ping-pong.

Any mob below IT is another story. They become 'soft' and DD's just generate too much hate and the mob usually goes down faster than a PLD can cap their enmity. Still, a PLD should have some method of mitigating that.

[hiko]

lower damage enmity generation and give tanks new enmity tools, that the only way to fix tank over DD tanking.

Uping cap won't do anything since damage is biggest source of enmity

[Hayward]

If Paladin's need anything, it isn't to be preoccupied with their parser stats. Tying Paladins' ability to maintain enmity to having an Empyrean weapon is no solution and you guys know it. Nor is having Paladins do cheap imitations of Warriors, Dark Knights, etc.

If Paladins are to regain its true status as the best tank of the game, 3 things need to happen:

1) Defense Bonuses need to be redefined as the reduction of a percentage of damage taken

2) Vitality needs to be tied to PDT rather than Defense while MND needs to be tied to MDT (2:1? 4:1? That's open for discussion)

3) The enmity cap needs to be raised by 100% for Paladins (and made unavailable with /PLD) while all actions' enmity gain needs to be accelerated to reach that cap faster than other melee jobs. Enmity loss should be decelerated equally, as well.

No Paladin should be concerned with their parser stats to do their jobs. Damage contributed by a paladin should be an extra rather than an essential.

[Haglaz]

Sounds like some one played pally on WoW from the OP. I'd be down with it!

[Karinya_of_Carbuncle]

That or taking away dd's ability to survive so well, in and out of abyssea and honestly, I wouldn't really want the latter.

I do. If everyone can survive everything, what is the point? There's no accomplishment in beating down an "HNM" so weak it can't even kill a DD.

Players in general are too strong, and fixing that will *restore* game balance that has been out of whack since ToAU.

[Karinya_of_Carbuncle]

Any mob below IT is another story. They become 'soft' and DD's just generate too much hate and the mob usually goes down faster than a PLD can cap their enmity. Still, a PLD should have some method of mitigating that.

ITs are soft these days too. Heck, even most NMs are soft. That's why people are doing 2k, 3k, 4k WSs. Mobs need to get back to the level of DEF/EVA they had in RotZ/CoP, where it actually took work to do damage, rather than instantly killing mobs by standing near them with a weapon out. The current state of NM fighting (aside from extreme lowmanning) consists mainly of holding back on damage so you can get in your droprate-boosting weakness procs before accidentally killing whatever pathetic weakling is ineffectually trying to nibble on you.

What made Atonement great was that (1) you didn't have to load up STR/ATK/etc. gear for it, because its damage wasn't determined by those stats, so it still performed well in actual tank gear, and (2) it was unaffected by mob DEF/EVA, so you could deal full damage to it even on HNMs (or what passed for HNMs in ToAU -- already showing serious stat/difficulty decay compared to players with merits).

CdC has neither property, it's just plain OP if you have it (and the DD gear, and now atma, to support it) and opens up even wider gaps between normally geared and extremely geared players.

This is actually part of the mobs-are-too-weak problem: SE can't design most mobs to be so strong average geared players can't fight them at all, but because of the now-excessive influence of gear, overgeared players destroy them with ridiculous ease. This game is unfortunately starting to resemble WoW where your gear defines you more than your job and level and ability to play that job does. Abyssites and atma have some of the same problem, but thankfully only inside Abyssea.

[Greatguardian]

Mobs haven't changed; the definition of Average Player has.

If we were all as terrible at FFXI as we were in 2005, these NMs would be just as challenging.

[Gallus]

Kinda short on time - had jumped on to update my post and was surprised how many replies I've had the past few days. I will make a longer reply later after I read everything, but in regards to the first few responses: Arguing that getting the empyrean weapon balances the job isn't fair at all. Every job will perform a similar % better by acquiring an empyrean weapon. While Paladin's gear selection can be lacking at times, and that does have an affect on performance, I think that's only a small contribution to why the Paladin job has been performing so poorly.

[Greatguardian]

Kinda short on time - had jumped on to update my post and was surprised how many replies I've had the past few days. I will make a longer reply later after I read everything, but in regards to the first few responses: Arguing that getting the empyrean weapon balances the job isn't fair at all. Every job will perform a similar % better by acquiring an empyrean weapon. While Paladin's gear selection can be lacking at times, and that does have an affect on performance, I think that's only a small contribution to why the Paladin job has been performing so poorly.

Paladin does not perform poorly. It performs just as well as THF, BST, PUP, JishnuRNG, and COR. People who try to bring PLD to things instead of MNK/NIN/WAR in Abyssea tend to perform poorly because there is no real reason for a smart player to bring PLD to Abyssea. Also, getting a Baudelaire+2 is nowhere near difficult either, and Vorpal Blade is no slouch in the meantime. There's a huge grey area between "Having an Almace" and "Spamming Sanguine Blade/Atonement with a PDT/VIT sword while idling in VIT/DEF gear".

[Aeonk]

Kinda short on time - had jumped on to update my post and was surprised how many replies I've had the past few days. I will make a longer reply later after I read everything, but in regards to the first few responses: Arguing that getting the empyrean weapon balances the job isn't fair at all. Every job will perform a similar % better by acquiring an empyrean weapon. While Paladin's gear selection can be lacking at times, and that does have an affect on performance, I think that's only a small contribution to why the Paladin job has been performing so poorly.
Maybe it's not fair. But that's the way it is. There is no other piece of gear you can get that will boost your performance the way an empyrean will. AF3+2 is definately sexy, and frankly one of the best AF3 sets in the game... but it won't solve the fundamental problem of "you can't cap hate 30 seconds after the fight starts." Almace or WoE sword does let you accomplish this, even if it means piggy-backing off of another Empyrean's WS to make a lvl3 SC.

@ Greatguardian bringing PLD to abyssea is a matter of circumstance. My group in particular doesn't use WAR, because it's not needed. I get to dick around on PLD, and to cover Shadow of Death the Empyrean DRK comes to play. May not be the lowest # of people required for the event, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

[Gallus]

I'm not saying that it isn't fair that paladin needs empyrean to excel. I'm saying that it's a terrible argument. You might as well go to every job forum and post threads titled, "So you want better job balance and improvements for your job? Get an empyrean." That aside, yes, obviously gear can improve any job. Paladin's biggest issues stem from Job capabilities, abilities, and traits. I'm not a career Paladin. Heck, I hardly play the job. When I am on Paladin, despite having rather exceptional gear, I always feel like I'm wasting the time of others and should be on a more productive job (I pretty much only touch it anymore for screwing around out for one goofy reason or another). When there's a Paladin in a group with me, I pretty much have to simply smile and accept that they're contributing slightly more than the key bearers. In regards to PLD performing as well as THF, that's simply not true. Inside abyssea, THF is a monster, hitting with nearly 80% crit rate and never letting up. Treasure hunter is just icing on the cake next to that. PLD can't come close.

[Rhaegar]

How about this for an idea: Instead of raising the hate cap only for PLDs, why not greatly increase the amount of hate that is lost by getting hit? Tie into this greatly boosting the amount of enmity the PLD keeps when getting hit via certain pieces of gear such as creed collar. The end result I'm seeing in my head is a DD grabbing hate after WS (which happened often enough even pre-abyssea), them getting smacked a couple times, and then mob turning back to the PLD. Then, as the PLD is getting hit, they aren't bleeding of enmity like crazy due to gears and JAs that are keeping them from losing enmity as quickly. Something like this would allow a group to bring a PLD to an event if they wanted and actually have it function viably, but at the same time wouldn't take away from other players' desire to lowman stuff with DDs and big WHM cures. Another idea to go along side this is to give PLD a cure5 powered spell that is self targetting only (we don't want PLDs taking the place of WHMs, that would mess with balance hence the self target only restriction) that uses the C1-4 enmity generation formula. Also, in addition to the enmity loss increase from being hit, make an adjustment to Shield Mastery so that no enmity is lost on a successful shield block.

These are just some thoughts I had bouncing around in my head, but I think they would do the trick to allow PLD to cap and maintain hate over other jobs without totally destroying game balance.

That being said, even if PLD can be made to cap and maintain hate over other jobs, I don't think that alone would save the job. Because, let's face it, a WELL GEARED MNK, WAR, or NIN and a WHM can duo 90% of the NMs in abyssea and kill pretty quickly. A PLD and a WHM could do the same, but not efficiently from a speed standpoint. Unfortunately, giving PLD a lot more DD potential would upset game balance towards PLD making all other DDs essentially obsolete. And, with CdC a PLD currently can do a decent job of dealing moderate damage. However, in the end, it's honestly up to your individual groups preferences. Some ppl don't mind or even prefer to do things with a few more ppl rather than duo or trio, but as Aeonk said, that's not necessarily a bad thing.

@Gallus: really, that is entirely dependant on how the PLD is being utilized. That THF is an awesome DD in abyssea, tis true. So let that THF focus on DDing. PLD is hands down, one of the best pulling jobs around, and pretty much the only thing I still utilize my PLD for. I wouldn't say that it's the job that isn't contributing. I've been in parties where you can "insert any job here" and have them contribute next to nothing. Just like everything else in this game, it's the player that contributes or doesn't. No matter what job you are showing up to in a group, a good player will always find a way to contribute something to the group cause.

[Greatguardian]

@ Greatguardian bringing PLD to abyssea is a matter of circumstance. My group in particular doesn't use WAR, because it's not needed. I get to dick around on PLD, and to cover Shadow of Death the Empyrean DRK comes to play. May not be the lowest # of people required for the event, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

This is pretty much exactly how my Almace PLD buddy ends up using his Pld whenever we feel like dicking around, lol. We generally just do that whenever we don't need red for something, and he's also our best Whm anyways, but yeah I know it happens. Pretty much anyone who does know a darn thing about PLD is sure to be an exception anyways.

[Cursed]

I'm so tired of PLD fix threads... I don't care anymore. Aegis looks good on my mithra manequin.

[Tyraant]

I was thinking some sort of ja that resembles emnity douse. make it alliance PC target, possibly like a hate reset for 1 person.

maybe also adjust atonement so dmg isn't capped @765, and fix monster resistance to atonement.

[Doombringer]

i'm sorry but.. as i understand it.. isn't the current issue with pld that everybody and there brother can cap enmity near instantly through dmg? i suppose the abilities where you drain enmity from pt members could HELP, but you need to consider that you're likely to be at or near the hate cap anyway, so most of what you drain won't help you. then the melees are likely to re-cap hate very quickly, and after taking even 1 hit worth of dmg, the pld loses hate again.

i think the whole enmity system needs a tweaking more than pld specifically

[Greatguardian]

The issue has never had anything at all to do with Enmity. You just have crap PLDs who can't reach the hate cap complaining about DDs who can. Even if PLD could get more Enmity than DDs, why would you bring a PLD to anything?

As long as Random MNK A has more hate than Random WHM B, it doesn't matter if they have 10,000 Enmity Units or 100,000. MNK *Takes Less Damage Than Paladin*, Deals more damage than Paladin, has more HP than Paladin, feeds less TP than Paladin, and is generally better than Paladin *at this stage of the game*.

If the Devs were shortsighted enough to actually take the player-pushed Enmity tweak route, they'd only have a few practical options.

Option 1: Reduce Enmity gained from dealing damage. Okay. It now takes a DD 60 seconds to cap hate instead of 30 seconds. Or, they could make the nerf absolutely extreme, but how would that help PLD? Every. Single. Mage. In the entire game is more durable than PLD. If JAs and Spells become the only way to garner sufficient quantities of Enmity, RDM would become a tanking King while DDs and Blms pound on NMs mercilessly without any fear of reprisal.

Option 2: Increase the Enmity gained through healing, Spells, and JAs. All this would do is, again, bring RDM tanking back. RDM is a hundred times more durable than Paladin, and needs significantly less support. Non-Whms would also get an epic nerfstick as Healers because Cure V would be the only safe cure spell left. This would just destroy mage balance, and still won't make PLD wanted.

Option 3: Give PLD a Class-Specific CE/VE cap of 12,000 units, capping at 24,000 TE. This is one that's been suggested a lot. But ... why would this make me want a PLD? Sure, a PLD can now keep hate off a MNK. But ... PLD takes more damage than MNK. PLD requires more support than MNK. MNK gains a huge damage bonus when it is tanking, PLD does not. PLD having more hate than a MNK will *Reduce the amount of damage being dealt to the NM, and increase the burden on the support*. All the more reason never to let anyone come PLD to things, as they'll just get in the way.

No combination of any of these things is going to help PLD at all. If people want to seriously buff anything about PLD's defensive ability, make all shield procs deal 0 damage and tweak Reprisal to have a Duration which is, at minimum, 50% of its recast so that it can be potentially fulltimed.

This still won't make them deal damage remotely comparable to a MNK, but it levels the defensive playing field. It won't make PLD more wanted, but it will make them less of a burden. Beyond that, if PLDs want to be useful for something, they'd need a meaningful offensive ability. Enlight was a nice try, but overall it's absolutely worthless to cast. I really don't want another Magic-based buff either. Dark Knight gets these all the time and it's plain to see that they do absolutely nothing to help it offensively. You will never, ever see a DRK stop swinging his sword to cast Fire III even if he gets some TP from it.

[Gallus]

Added some more ideas in adjustment. Always appreciate input. I do read it all and it does oftentimes affect the ideas that I add to the original post. Put a lot of thought into this post some days while I'm driving around and end up coming back to make the changes. Keep in mind, this is more of a personal pet project than anything else that I'm just throwing out there to share, but I really do hope S-E reads up and that it might provide some solid ideas for adjustment in the future.

[WisdomPanda]

I've been out of the game a while, but many of the issues you've been discussing have been present since people discovered that PLD/NIN could offhand joytoy and pump out decent Vorpal Blades. :/
(If you know why an Espadon was cool, you rock.)

The requirement to fix PLD is extreme, it always has been. It requires an over haul of the base systems, because it relies on systems that are broken.

Step 1: Fix defense. Any PLD will tell you that Defense isn't worth the pixels it takes to render. Defense needs to carry with it a PDT- ability, possibly being enhanced by PLD traits. (JA's are not acceptable, if you want a PLD to really be a PLD, he has to get hit, a lot.)

Step 2: Fix utsu. Make shadows that are hit give TP. That's right. Gives TP. After all, the mob actually hit the shadow, right? It still leaves shadow tanking as an option, but it removes a perk that should not have been allowed to get so abused.

Step 3: Remove/Reduce TP gain when striking a PLD. Lv40 or something sounds good. Shadows are now making even MNK's total TP whores, PLD's would be the only ones immune.

Step 4: Fix shields. If I block with my shield, I expect to see 0 dmg, unless a mob has a special 'pierce armor' trait, in which case it should be ~25% tops. This also extends to Reprisal.

Finally, Step 5: Fix enmity loss. When a mob hits my PLD in the face, I laugh at the mob and explain how fat it's mother is. Thus, I suggest the trait "Incorrigible - Paladin back talks mob with every hit, reducing enmity loss when struck".

(100% optional) Step 6: I'd love to see some sexeh regen.

Also, If you are DD'ing on a PLD then you obviously picked your job in the dark. It doesn't matter if they can keep up, it doesn't matter if you're "just as good as a <insert current fad DD>"; you are a PLD. We protect our party and alliance by being the guy (or gal) that steps up and takes one for the team, in the face.

[Lutschfactor]

great. just tell me one thing. hope i dont piss u off asking u. but how does mnk take less damage then pld?

[Greatguardian]

great. just tell me one thing. hope i dont piss u off asking u. but how does mnk take less damage then pld?

I'll set their Evasion to 0 to even the playing field, even though MNK has a higher Eva than PLD. But just a quick glance at defensive traits:

MNK has Counterstance, which blocks 75% of all incoming non-TP move attacks.

PLD has a Shield, which reduces a Maximum of 65% of incoming hits to, what, 30% damage?

Where a MNK is taking 25% of incoming damage (with capped Subtle Blow and Penance reducing incoming TP moves further), PLD is taking 54.5% of incoming damage.

Defense is absolutely broken in FFXI. Monster Attack is so high that the difference between how much a PLD gets hit for with 450 defense and how much a MNK gets hit for with 45 defense is practically null. Enemies are attack capped, or near attack capped, either way. If their Attack is capped on us anyways, taking away more Defense doesn't make any difference at all. Capped is capped.

[Lutschfactor]

idk, i just dont see it that way. eventho u may. i just always see our mnks getting the crap beat out of them and i honestly laugh to myself. i like them and all. but can tank worth a crap in this. and i will never bleive anyone who says they can. thats just my opinion...then again i also hate nin to...so ya im hostile to mnk and nins lol

one last question. where or how did u gett aht sig u have. thats pretty cool.

[Greatguardian]

Bias goggles.

PLD gets the shit beaten out of it just as hard, if not harder. Plus pretty much any MNK that gets killed by anything these days is probably absolute suck, or has an absolute suck WHM. An absolute suck PLD, or one with an absolute suck WHM, is no better off.

[Zumi]

I swear Divine Protection reduces all incoming damage by 20% for 10 sec, oh wait that's another game.

[Eklm]

Honestly, I don't see how its difficult at all for SE to fix Pld. They mainly would need to do 3 things:

1. Make it so all jobs lose less hate from getting hit and players gain less hate from dealing damage. I know this will make it hard for a blm who is all out nuking or an impressively geared War to stay alive if they get hate.....but it will also make it alot harder for them to take hate from a Pld (or Nin and Mnk) in the first place.

2. Give Pld more tools for taking hate from others. Thfs have tools to redirect hate onto themselves. Why not give Pld an ability to take the hate generated by another player and put them on themselves?

3. Change Circle Abilities. Now hear me out on this one. Everyone has been asking for a way to give Pld a higher hate cap over other players. This cannot happen because other jobs who may want to take hate from a Pld can't and it will make other jobs like Nin and Mnk less desired. Well the easiest way to change this is to take a useless ability (the Circle abilities) and change them to a 5 min duration and 5 minute recast and make them so they lower the enmity cap on players in the party it hits.

How will this be different then giving Pld a higher enmity cap? Well if your a Nin or Mnk who wants to co-tank....all you need to do is remove the circle buff. This is also the case if another job needs to take hate because the Pld is in bad shape or for whatever reason.

[Arcon]

How will this be different then giving Pld a higher enmity cap? Well if your a Nin or Mnk who wants to co-tank....all you need to do is remove the circle buff. This is also the case if another job needs to take hate because the Pld is in bad shape or for whatever reason.

Raising the hate cap has two issues associated with it: for one, getting hate off the PLD deliberately would be impossible (which would make co-tanking impossible). That would be fixed by your solution (in a somewhat inconvenient way). But also, it would make it impossible for a PLD to lose hate accidentally, meaning other melees can spam DD wyrms from behind, 17 mages can cure spam the crap out of the PLD and similar activities without fear of ever getting hate.

And as was mentioned before, hate isn't the only issue with PLD.

[Charismatic]

It's like you didn't even read what you quoted.

[Raka]

I didn't have a chance to read everyones post, but I did come across seeing people want a way to crowd control...something along the lines of an Area of Effect ability. Though it may not be an ability, Uriel Blade would fill in the blank of this Area of Effect thirst people have. Generates alot of enmity, Area of Effect damage and a 1~7sec Flash.

I'd say that'd be the end of it, lol.

But that's my opinion, just thought I'd toss it in there. Sorry if someone mentioned it already too, again, I didn't read all of the posts, just enough to see what I saw.

Aside from that, I like most of the ideas. Also would like to say that Square Enix took a step in the right direction for Paladin when they made Almace(Chant du Cygne). I did come across a few posts about Paladin needing more DD, and I think it's a bit true, but if you really love the job so much...should work on an Almace. I'm glad that I did.

My highest Chant du Cygne is at 5400ish Paladin/Warrior inside of Abyssea, about 2100ish outside. Love it. <3

[Andrien]

Paladins are defenders of the weak, and they are protectors. Since Abyssea, Paladins have lost their spark, and the majority of players in the game doesn't want to waste time doing events with PLD as main tank because it is to time consuming. We want things done quickly and safely with no hiccups and casualties.

So I propose this;

PLD is great with shields, how about when they successfully block an attack they can counter with a special ability that damages the enemy a lot, and gives us hate at the same time. Not every block of course but every 10sec?

How about blocking more than just physical attacks. What about ranged attacks, and magical attacks as well.

Cure 4 just doesn't cut it. With the large amount of HP we all have now cure 4 is just lacking in the amount we can recover from using it.

I want something that gets the attentions of all near by monsters.

Unlike Invincible, a job ability that reduces our speed and recast, the pld puts a lot of strain on his/her self to boost their overall survivability to greatly resist all forms of attacks for a time. -- It would be a great alternative from brewing HNM's don't you think?

just my 2 cents. what you think?

[Raka]

PLD is great with shields, how about when they successfully block an attack they can counter with a special ability that damages the enemy a lot, and gives us hate at the same time. Not every block of course but every 10sec?

I can't see this being considered and honestly, I probably would be upset if it were. I'd maybe consider a similar idea like this if it were for Aegis owners, however. Aegis needs to be worked on still, extra -MDT isn't going to cut it from the update. Perhaps using this idea with slight alterations such as:

Aegis
All Races
DEF:40
Augments "Shield Bash"
Magic damage taken -25%
*Shield Bash delay -30*
Lv.75

With each Magian upgrade maybe reduce the recast of Shield Bash by 30 seconds for a total of 120 sec recast at Lv.99 without merits and being 5/5 Shield Bash recast would lower to 70~90 second recast.

I would like to see this considered.
Basically it's turning your idea into an alteration to make Aegis unique and once again a more decent Shield.


How about blocking more than just physical attacks. What about ranged attacks, and magical attacks as well.

This idea I would love to see personally, although I can understand them not allowing us to block Magic damage, but they should give us the benefit of the doubt and allow us to block Ranged Attacks.


Cure 4 just doesn't cut it. With the large amount of HP we all have now cure 4 is just lacking in the amount we can recover from using it.

It's not that we have a "large amount of HP", but it's simply that the most of the new Notorious Monsters/Monsters hit for too much, unblocked and by the time you get a Cure IV off, if you haven't blocked the next attack it's as if your HP never budged. Cure V would help for those "Oh,s hi..!" moments.

All and all, I like the ideas still, just need some tweaking.

[Gallus]

I've made some changes. Regarding what I've read of suggestions made by other players, I feel that many people are really focused on their ideology of what a Paladin should be is dictating how they feel the job should be adjusted and not what would really reincorporate the job as a staple to a party. Any damage buffs Paladin would receive, magic aside, should be given as a buff to others, as in certain scenarios (Almace, and to a greater degree, Almace/Ochain), Paladin is quite powerful. I don't feel that Aegis should be given a timer reduction on Shield Bash. I think that would be way too big of a buff to deny others of it. Aegis users would already benefit from the damage buff on top of a Shield Bash timer reduction. Lastly, I'm just trying to throw out a large job-wide change here. I'm not focused on just changing one or two abilities, or my suggested course of action for those one or two abilities would most likely be radically different. Do I feel that a complete rework of the job is necessary? Sort of. I don't think much can be done to the job through minor changes that would make a big enough impact on the job vs the other jobs nowadays, however, minor changes are always a nice start. Do I think a major overhaul would be a good thing? Yes, I feel that something like what I've suggested would be a very positive change and would only make the job more appealing without stepping on the toes of the other jobs in the game. Oh, and yes, my intent for the aura buffs would be for them to be removable if someone so chooses (reapplying by leaving range and returning) if someone wished. Whether it would be possible or not, I don't know.

[Raka]

I don't feel that Aegis should be given a timer reduction on Shield Bash. I think that would be way too big of a buff to deny others of it. Aegis users would already benefit from the damage buff on top of a Shield Bash timer reduction.

Aegis costs roughly 159,000,000~195,000,000 gil to upgrade. It's more than fair to have a timer reduction to Shield Bash with each Magian upgrade. It's not even "Overpowering" since it'd be equivelent to an Aftermath proc. on a Critical hit from Almace at the most, but can only do so every 90~120 seconds.

[Akujima]

Cool Idea's man, I like them.
And also I'll add something I just thought of.


Shield Slam

An upgraded more powerful version of Shield Bash, that requires a Tower Shield. You knock back the opponent, and reduce their TP (kind of like demoralize. Not inhibit, but reduce). This would also be animated with a huge slam, kind of like the Weapon Skill "Shoulder Tackle" and would also inflict a decent amount of DMG, and be able to crit as well.

[Gallus]

Aegis costs roughly 159,000,000~195,000,000 gil to upgrade. It's more than fair to have a timer reduction to Shield Bash with each Magian upgrade. It's not even "Overpowering" since it'd be equivelent to an Aftermath proc. on a Critical hit from Almace at the most, but can only do so every 90~120 seconds.

If they reduced cooldown on Shield Bash, you'd be reaping the benefits with an Aegis, having the damage bonus on Shield Bash that's unique to Aegis. I think that reduced Shield Bash timer is one way to help balance out Paladin and making Aegis a requirement to attain it sounds unreasonable. As an alternative, they could allow Aegis to increase the stun duration of Shield Bash.

Alujima, glad you like em and I think that's a cool idea man!

[Akujima]

If they reduced cooldown on Shield Bash, you'd be reaping the benefits with an Aegis, having the damage bonus on Shield Bash that's unique to Aegis. I think that reduced Shield Bash timer is one way to help balance out Paladin and making Aegis a requirement to attain it sounds unreasonable. As an alternative, they could allow Aegis to increase the stun duration of Shield Bash.

Alujima, glad you like em and I think that's a cool idea man!


Yea, I was just thinking the same thing.

Fixing a Job by making it a requirement to have a certain piece of gear, isn't really repairing the Job itself. You don't want this to happen, because then literally gear = usefulness, and what would happen is basically PLD's (or any other job for that matter) that didn't have certain pieces of equipment, would just plain suck.

Rather gear should = more usefulness, so it wouldn't be a detriment to PLD's without an Aegis for instance. So I think just sticking to adding/improving JA's, JT's and other game mechanics is the way to properly fix imbalance.

[Nebo]

They should just give PLD some offensive Job Abilities/Traits already.

All the great DD jobs have defensive abilities do they not? MNK has counterstance/Dodge, WAR has defender, NIN has Shadows/Yonin, SAM has Seigan/Third Eye, THF has evasion, DNC has Fan Dance/Waltzes, DRG has healing Breath/Jumps etc etc etc.

Is a Paladin not a Knight? Is a Knight not a fighter? A Soldier? I think PLD should get some offensive JA's to balance this out.

[Deonisius]

They should just give PLD some offensive Job Abilities/Traits already.

All the great DD jobs have defensive abilities do they not? MNK has counterstance/Dodge, WAR has defender, NIN has Shadows/Yonin, SAM has Seigan/Third Eye, THF has evasion, DNC has Fan Dance/Waltzes, DRG has healing Breath/Jumps etc etc etc.

Is a Paladin not a Knight? Is a Knight not a fighter? A Soldier? I think PLD should get some offensive JA's to balance this out.

This! ^

I never post on any forums just read them for information and entertainment.

But as a lvl 90 Paladin I approve this message!

[Ashido]

I wouldn't be upset if En Light ( aside from the DPS Point of it ) gave some hate increase.

[Manicora]

still think people should learn how to play pld before they try to fix what isnt broke, in aby i break 3k Ws's and outside 1200-1500 non emp non relic just simple ol' me.

[Zagen]

still think people should learn how to play pld before they try to fix what isnt broke, in aby i break 3k Ws's and outside 1200-1500 non emp non relic just simple ol' me.
On what? With what? These aren't numbers I've seen from a "non emp" PLD unless you're specializing for Sanguine Blade dropping your DoT to hell in the process.

[Greatguardian]

3k on a lucky TA proc isn't uncommon for Vorpal blade on trash mobs. It won't average nearly that high though. 1200-1500 Vorpals outside is just utter crap unless you're talking like Colibri level shit.

[Zagen]

3k on a lucky TA proc isn't uncommon for Vorpal blade on trash mobs.

I can see that once in a while, though I assumed when boasting of 3k to keep up with DDs it was an average of some sort which sounded crazy.

[Dale]

Paladin in it's current state is useless. The job deals too little damage, does not generate enmity fast enough to keep up with other jobs, and really offers nothing to groups that other, more versatile jobs can. It's a one-trick pony that's run out of steam. So, the job clearly needs to be revised. I believe I can offer the solution to the situation.

Edit 5/13: Changed permanent enlight effect given with no shield equipped to a Bravery aura and reworked how I think light-based magic should be buffed without a shield equipped. Minor additional changes throughout the post. Nerfed an idea or two cause I thought I might have gone a little overboard in hindsight (regarding how changes would interact with other changes). I hope you'll find the ideas an interesting read.

The Cure to the Common, Crappy Paladin

First off, Paladin will need to be made more versatile. To fix that, I propose these two configurations depending on choice of gear (well, shield or no shield):

Paladin: The Support/Tank
From now on Paladin will be able to offer the party not only a tank that can grab and hold hate, but one that can support the party. While wielding a shield, Paladin will gain access to a support aura that will offer 2-tick regen, refresh, and regain to all party members in the general area (Paladin included), also, allies affected by aura will be subject to a rapid enmity decay affect. Additionally, Paladin will now be able to "stagger" monsters with their shield. A staggered monster sufferers from reduced evasion, defense, and becomes more susceptible to critical hits. The effect lasts 10 seconds. There is a chance of staggering on a successful shield block. The larger the shield, the more likely it is to stagger (likelihood varies 25~50%). Shield Bashes can trigger the effect and would be considered successful shield blocks for the sake of determining if they were successful in doing so. Alongside the enmity decay given by aura and job ability adjustments below, I think it's safe to say Paladin wouldn't have much of a problem holding hate along with being able to contribute to the party's efficiency, making it a more attractive job inside parties.

Paladin: The DD/Healer
So Paladin can offer more to their party as the tank, but what if the party doesn't need a dedicated tank? Perhaps the monster is dying so fast it doesn't matter? Well here's the fix for that. Paladin will now be able to fill the roll of a decent damage dealer (not a super-amazing DD) and bring their healing skills to the front lines to boot. When not wielding a shield, Paladin will gain access to a Bravery aura, providing a 10~15% damage buff to all standard and crit hits made by the Paladin and nearby allies. Additionally, the Paladin's light-based spells will be given double-potency (Enlight included) and a +25% cure potency. Cures will provide the targets with TP (3TP for Cure, 4TP for Cure 2, 5TP for Cure 3, 6TP for Cure 4).

So that covers the major changes to the job. As for the more minor, I think a new job ability and a few changes to existing ones will pretty much wrap up all that's needed to repair the Paladin job:

New Job Ability
Battle Chanting: The Paladin's spells do not interrupt battle-related actions. Additionally, they can't be interrupted through physical means. Recast timer of spells is doubled. 90 minute duration, 5 minute recast.

Job Ability Changes
Sentinel: Ability now heavily reduces the enmity of the next highest party member on the monster's enmity list and prevents their enmity gain for 20 seconds. Damage reduction and enmity gained by Paladin still applies. Reuse lowered to 1 minute, duration will be lowered to 7 seconds. (mathematically, 6 would appear better, as you'd be reducing the recast from 5 minutes to 1, however, I feel it would better balance out with the extra activations interrupting hits more often)

Rampart: When used, the Paladin absorbs 30% of all nearby allies' enmity. Enmity is compounded onto the Paladin. This compounded enmity can go over cap, however, quickly decays down (back to standard cap within 10 seconds). Magic damage reduction now quarters magic damage taken by all party members for the short duration. Reuse lowered to 45 seconds, duration of magic shield lowered to 3 seconds.

Shield Bash: Reuse lowered to 90 seconds. Damage can crit.

Oh, and here's a couple New Job Traits
Divine Protection: Cover no longer requires the Paladin stand in front of target to redirect damage.

Smite: When an enemy's HP is under 5%, the damage dealt by Paladin's light-based magic is multiplied 4x on the target (does not stack with the 2x mod given when no shield equipped - this will replace that mod in given scenarios).

This should pretty much do it. Nothing too over-the-top, but everything needed to breath life back into the job in ways that will not only benefit the player, but also their party members.

I really can't disagree with this thread more.

Paladins are not useless. We are not "one trick ponies that run out of steam"....w/e that means. We have way too many monks and warrior wannabes playing the paladin job, that's the real problem here.

Paladins are very versatile. YOu know how many parties I have main-healed on my Paladin? Too many to count. They can do excellent damage if geared right. They can tank....have a huge selection of weapons and armor... I don't know what more you want. Any paladin complaining about lack of versatility just isn't being creative enough. They are easily one of the most versatile jobs on this game. I'd probably rank them 3rd behind Blue and Red Mage in fact - which isn't bad considering the job enjoys the best physical defense in the game when you take into account their shield block.

Most of your post is complaining saying paladins should be able to do things they already can.

[Rafien]

Smite sounds more like a DRK thing than a PLD.

[Dale]

On what? With what? These aren't numbers I've seen from a "non emp" PLD unless you're specializing for Sanguine Blade dropping your DoT to hell in the process.

I've had vorpals hit close to 3k in abyssea in pearl gear and easily obtained swords like honorbound. It's not that difficult to do. A paladin who goes all out for damage can put out good numbers. They may not be monks or dragoons - but they can deffinitely add acceptable melee dps to any group.

[Zagen]

I've had vorpals hit close to 3k in abyssea in pearl gear and easily obtained swords like honorbound. It's not that difficult to do. A paladin who goes all out for damage can put out good numbers. They may not be monks or dragoons - but they can deffinitely add acceptable melee dps to any group.
Cool I've hit a 4k Vorpal before that doesn't mean I average it or anything remotely close to it. >.>

[Dale]

Cool I've hit a 4k Vorpal before that doesn't mean I average it or anything remotely close to it. >.>

You miss the point, as usual.

The point is if even a paladin who is just goofing around with mediocre dps gear and no merits in that direction can land 3k vorpals, I think it's safe to say in the right hands the paladin can make an acceptable damage dealer - thus refuting the hollow claim paladins are useless and weak and can't do damage.

I've been reading your posts for awhile now Zag and I have to say to make you satisfied and not say paladins suck they would have to be mini Gods that run around one shotting entire zones...this latest argument of yours pretty much taking the cake. Now you are implying paladins would have to average 4k damage per weapon skill to not "suck" at dps. It's just nonsense.

[Greatguardian]

When so much of your damage is coming from Cruor buffs/Atmas, you're not really going to average much higher than 2k-2.5k Vorpals even with ideal gear =/.

ITT: People have different definitions of suck. The melee SMN thread totally didn't teach people that at all.

[Sephiran]

I like this a lot. I really want to the magic aspects of PLD get some love. (I still sub WHM, I love them so much.)