RDM/RNK make it good

[ManaKing]

Begin Unrealistic Rant....

Toys I want to steal from RNK from subbing it:


Fencer
Enhancing magic job abilities at full potency
Anything else my wretched, melee-heart desires later

[Demon6324236]

Honestly it would be nice however I think I will probably stick to DNC or NIN because of Dual Wield which I don't see Rune getting.

[saevel]

Unless it gives DWIII @49 or under then it won't be worth subbing for anything melee related. Possibly some long solo work similar to what /BLU is used for.

Yes DWIII is ~that~ powerful for 1H jobs.

[ManaKing]

So is the unknown. Sure it won't pan out, but it could.

If they give us a job ability that enhances our enspell potency by a significant (i.e. broken good) margin and give us Fencer at the same time you could do well with an Almace or an Excal. You also get to keep your shield.

While Fencer is not greater than DW III, RDM really doesn't have any specialized itemization for critical hits and TP bonus works on our best 2 weapon skills.

I just want to be able to steal enough toys from /RNK so that it will be a viable option along with /NIN.

[saevel]

So is the unknown. Sure it won't pan out, but it could.

If they give us a job ability that enhances our enspell potency by a significant (i.e. broken good) margin and give us Fencer at the same time you could do well with an Almace or an Excal. You also get to keep your shield.

While Fencer is not greater than DW III, RDM really doesn't have any specialized itemization for critical hits and TP bonus works on our best 2 weapon skills.

I just want to be able to steal enough toys from /RNK so that it will be a viable option along with /NIN.

Ok let me put it in perspective.

DW I = -10%, 100/90 = 11.11% DPS improvement
DW II = -15% 100/85 = 17.64% DPS improvement
DW III = -25% 100/75 = 33.33% DPS improvement
DW III + Suppa = -30% 100/70 = 42.85% DPS improvement

Not to mention the additional hit on WS's and the STR + 11 ATK + 22(27.5) from off hand.

Enspells would have to do ~200 per hit to get anywhere close to that. Not likely with how SE is right now. Best idea would be for SE to crumble and just give BST and RDM native DW equal to what they get from SJ at 90.

[Sunrider]

The most I'm hoping for in RNF is that it's introduction offers a a plethora of means of En-spell exploitation, similar to what SCH's intro did for the tier 1 accuracy calculation.

Hopefully RNF will mean an abundance of En-spell + gear that perhaps RDM can utilize too.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Unless someone seriously changed about enspell gear while I haven't been on Rdm more +enspell gear is not going to be any more useful than the pieces we already have.

And yeah, having enspells on par with Rainemard's is a pipe dream.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Isn't it Mystic Knight that has enspells, not Rune.

Seeing as Rune Fencer utilises a GS as it's weapon, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't get Fencer.

[Sunrider]

Isn't it Mystic Knight that has enspells, not Rune.Since isn't getting Mystic Knight, RNF is the job mentioned to be getting En-spell effects in the new expansion.

Unless someone seriously changed about enspell gear while I haven't been on Rdm more +enspell gear is not going to be any more useful than the pieces we already have.That's what I mean in hoping RNF becomes a gateway to En-spell improvements; SCH was a gateway in the sense that En-spell accuracy was adjusted to accommodate for SCH's Accession powers, and RDM benefited from that.

Maybe if En-spells are beefed up to accomodate RNF, RDM can benefit form that as well.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Since isn't getting Mystic Knight, RNF is the job mentioned to be getting En-spell effects in the new expansion.
That's what I mean in hoping RNF becomes a gateway to En-spell improvements; SCH was a gateway in the sense that En-spell accuracy was adjusted to accommodate for SCH's Accession powers, and RDM benefited from that.

Maybe if En-spells are beefed up to accomodate RNF, RDM can benefit form that as well.

Oh, I didn't notice it said: Elemental based runes add Elemental Damage to attacks and increases resistance to an element.

If it is items though, bet your bottom dollar they'll be RNF only, like jug pets.

[Sunrider]

Oh, I didn't notice it said: Elemental based runes add Elemental Damage to attacks and increases resistance to an element.

If it is items though, bet your bottom dollar they'll be RNF only, like jug pets.It depends in how gear and damage are characterized.

If gear is specialized to Rune bonuses, then there's nothing it could offer RDM. If not, there's the possibility of shared gear.

If RNF En-spells fall under their own magic category (the way Blood Pacts are for SMN and so forth), then of course, there's nothing there for us. But if it's calculated under Enhancing magic; again, RDM could benefit from it.

[ManaKing]

Unless someone seriously changed about enspell gear while I haven't been on Rdm more +enspell gear is not going to be any more useful than the pieces we already have.

And yeah, having enspells on par with Rainemard's is a pipe dream.

You leave my pipe dream alone you demon!!!*cries in the corner all butthurt*

j/k just saying that's what i want. might as well put in my opinion. I would be pretty happy if the made adjustment to enspell damage that benefited both RDM and RNK. If RDM/RNK was a viable sub that did absurd amounts of white damage with enspells, I would be satisfied.

RDM is in a decent spot for a job that doesn't use 2handers. I would like there to be some kind of re-balance to 1h, but that would be a long way off. Can't really expect that overnight, maybe as part of some kind of expansion in 2013?

[Sunrider]

I was mostly speculating at En-spell adjustments. It just seems to me that if RNF is intended to utilize En-spell effects, then supposing they use Enhancing skill, then any adjustments made to make En-spells more palatable (particularly in settings like Abyssea), then it would follow that we would benefit as well. And, assuming the design doesn't deviate much, the same might go for equipment as well.

When I think on it, the devs would be a little crazy not to make RDM and RNF's En-spell designs similar, given the En-spell oriented gear currently available--RNF could stand to benefit for items such as the Buzzard tuck or Lycopodium earring.

[ManaKing]

I can't really disagree. I'd like to see enhancements to enhancement magic.

The only thing to note is that enspells are better than ever in aby, they just don't compare to the ridiculous amount of crit enhancement that is also present. Throw Lion and Blinding Horn and you can have Enspell 2s that hit for 100+ damage....but throw any combination of RR, Gnarled Horn, or SS and you will do better white damage and better WS damage as well.

[Demon6324236]

Since isn't getting Mystic Knight, RNF is the job mentioned to be getting En-spell effects in the new expansion.
That's what I mean in hoping RNF becomes a gateway to En-spell improvements; SCH was a gateway in the sense that En-spell accuracy was adjusted to accommodate for SCH's Accession powers, and RDM benefited from that.

Maybe if En-spells are beefed up to accomodate RNF, RDM can benefit form that as well.

It would be nice but I'm sure the gear would conflict with haste gear or RDM wouldn't get the effects because runes & enspells being treated differently, however you never know.

[Crimson_Slasher]

First thing when i read about "elemental damage added to attacks" and yet separately listed "En-effects" i pictured two different things present on the job, the first being something akin to Corsair's quickdraws, where the RNF would have "Strikes" and then things like FireStrike, IceStrike, Doing a mid-ranged weaponskill's worth dmg of elemental nature, and second being something more akin to Sambas, where instead of en-element(still an option) they would be more like Endrain, Enaspir, Enslow, etc. Or something possibly that causes micro-provokes per strike. Just the way i speculated it could play out. As for enspell enhancements, theyre tied to "Sword Enhancement" so even if RNF's enabilities are granted by a JA rather than MA, theres still a chance the gear can affect both.

Edit: Bah, jumped the gun. Saw this just now. (Underlining/bolding important notes)


Looking at the name “rune fencer” it is actually not a magic based job, as they will be consuming runes to gain special effects. To give a bit more insight into the actual name, I will share a quick Japanese lesson with you all. Red mage, black mage, and other “mage” jobs utilize the kanji
“魔道士” which denotes a mage or wizard-type role. On the other hand, rune fencer in Japanese
is “魔導剣士” which uses a slightly different kanji “魔導.” Both are actually pronounced the same way (madou) but are different in the sense that the latter is used to denote more of a sage-type character. With that said, it might seem to overlap with the image of red mage, but it is in fact completely different.

On another note, for all of you who may still be wondering what the main weapon for rune fencer will be, as many has guessed it will be great sword. However, they will still be able to fully utilize one-hand swords as well.

Attack wise, since they are using great sword, we are planning to have them deal higher damage than paladins. As a tank role though, generating higher enmity than your melee and other damage dealers with attacks alone is quite impossible, so we will be looking into other methods to gain enmity.

In regards to their defensive capabilities, as was stated their specialty is magical defense and elemental resistance, but they will not be able to have all resistances enhanced at once and will have to use runes skillfully to enhance themselves.

So theres the conclusive word on RNF

[ManaKing]

Yeah, they didn't really clarify anything about if it will be an attractive sub for RDM.

FireStrike etc. would be pretty darn cool. If it's able to be subbed and it has MAB as a mult i heard we are great at that. You could still give RNK better versions that you acquired after lvl 50+.

It still doesn't satisfy my curiosity for this statement:
'Rune fencers will possess versatile abilities like one that cuts the duration of the next enhancing magic spell cast on them by half, but in turn amplifies the spell's effect 1.5 times, and another that erects a barrier that reduces magic damage.'

I read the word ability, and interpreted Job Ability. Yeah I want an Enhancing magic job ability that I can steal.

[Babekeke]

Ok let me put it in perspective.

DW I = -10%, 100/90 = 11.11% DPS improvement
DW II = -15% 100/85 = 17.64% DPS improvement
DW III = -25% 100/75 = 33.33% DPS improvement
DW III + Suppa = -30% 100/70 = 42.85% DPS improvement

Not to mention the additional hit on WS's and the STR + 11 ATK + 22(27.5) from off hand.

Enspells would have to do ~200 per hit to get anywhere close to that. Not likely with how SE is right now. Best idea would be for SE to crumble and just give BST and RDM native DW equal to what they get from SJ at 90.

25% gear haste +43% magic haste cap = 68% delay reduction = Almace (99) DPS going from 18.75 up to 58.59
Add DW3 + suppa = 77% delay reduction = Almace (99) DPS going up again to 81.52 (39.1% improvement over single wield)
So it looks good... However:

Add in a DNC to your pt with 5/5 haste samba!
25% gear haste +43% magic haste cap + 10% Samba= 78% delay reduction (2% off cap) = Almace (99) DPS of 85.22 (45% increase over no samba)
Now, you only need 10% DW to hit the haste cap, so DW2 or 3 will both put you over. In this situation (and it's probably a quite unlikely situation to be in), Fencer will offer you a decent benefit, though not necessarily better than the last 2% haste.

My recommendation: If you're in this situation, sub WAR and get 5% crit rate, 20 tp bonus, 10% double attack, Berserk and Warcry.

[Ophannus]

They said that Rune Fencer would not be a magic class, so I think their 'enspells' are coming from their runes, so I doubt it'll enhance ours in any way.

[saevel]

25% gear haste +43% magic haste cap = 68% delay reduction = Almace (99) DPS going from 18.75 up to 58.59
Add DW3 + suppa = 77% delay reduction = Almace (99) DPS going up again to 81.52 (39.1% improvement over single wield)
So it looks good... However:

Add in a DNC to your pt with 5/5 haste samba!
25% gear haste +43% magic haste cap + 10% Samba= 78% delay reduction (2% off cap) = Almace (99) DPS of 85.22 (45% increase over no samba)
Now, you only need 10% DW to hit the haste cap, so DW2 or 3 will both put you over. In this situation (and it's probably a quite unlikely situation to be in), Fencer will offer you a decent benefit, though not necessarily better than the last 2% haste.

My recommendation: If you're in this situation, sub WAR and get 5% crit rate, 20 tp bonus, 10% double attack, Berserk and Warcry.

Your not hitting that haste cap without embrava or SV march's, and if you have those then why the hell is the RDM in that party or meleeing. Heck you just mentioned adding a DNC ..... seriously .....

Now sho

[ManaKing]

Your not hitting that haste cap without embrava or SV march's, and if you have those then why the hell is the RDM in that party or meleeing. Heck you just mentioned adding a DNC ..... seriously .....

Now sho

Babekeke is pointing out the theoretical advantage of fencer. It is completely possible to do that and thus they are correct. Will this happen regularly? Probably not, SE would have to set up a situation where it would advantageous and that situation does not presently exist.

[Zerich]

so does this mean they're theoretically deleting PLD and RDM?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

They said that Rune Fencer would not be a magic class, so I think their 'enspells' are coming from their runes, so I doubt it'll enhance ours in any way.

They use similar armour, so can at least hope for good DD gear with Enspell Damage+ on with RDM on, and hopefully not: Rune Fencer: Enspell Damage +

[Babekeke]

In this situation (and it's probably a quite unlikely situation to be in), Fencer will offer you a decent benefit, though not necessarily better than the last 2% haste.


Your not hitting that haste cap without embrava or SV march's, and if you have those then why the hell is the RDM in that party or meleeing. Heck you just mentioned adding a DNC ..... seriously .....

Now sho

I guess your reading is poor, or selective (or you're simply trolling).


Your not hitting that haste cap without embrava or SV march's

You can hit the Haste cap with haste + double march with +4 March.
Adv. March (6.3) +4 (6.3), Vic. March (9.5) +4 (6.3) + Haste (15) = 6.3 + 6.3 + 9.5 +6.3 + 15 = 43.4.
I got these figures from BG wiki, so I'm assuming that they're right. There is however, nothing on the page to show any proof of testing, so I can't put this forward as fact.
You don't even need a relic to hit +4 march, using Langeleik and Emp hands +2.

Or you could just Marcato one of the marches. Even with only march +2 in gear, using Marcato on Victory March will allow you to hit the magic haste cap!

Oh, and this can be achieved in a party of 3 people, DNC, RDM and BRD. Not really content that youy need SV or Embrava on, is it?

[Protey]

Unless someone seriously changed about enspell gear while I haven't been on Rdm more +enspell gear is not going to be any more useful than the pieces we already have.

And yeah, having enspells on par with Rainemard's is a pipe dream.


if we had enspells like Rainemard's every rdm and their mother would be offhanding KC.

edit: not to mention, we'd be asked to come to the front lines in parties too, because we'd be the DPS king, no other job would be able to come even close to us. And if I recall, enspell damage doesn't generate extra hate, so we'd be an ideal DD.

[ManaKing]

so does this mean they're theoretically deleting PLD and RDM?

Neither are strong at anything that SE or it's player base value. I mean come on, why tank when your DPS can be unkillable? You're just wasting time on silly things like diversity and play style. I mean this job isn't based on a diverse job system or anything...........


if we had enspells like Rainemard's every rdm and their mother would be offhanding KC.

edit: not to mention, we'd be asked to come to the front lines in parties too, because we'd be the DPS king, no other job would be able to come even close to us. And if I recall, enspell damage doesn't generate extra hate, so we'd be an ideal DD.

Nice try I guess? Enspells 1s doing 45 damage instead of 30 damage a hit would somehow catch us up to Resolution or Wildfire Spam? Even with Composure up you would still only get 4.5 minutes of enspells. If it's a 10 minute JA then half time RDM tyranny?

If you hit all 8 times you would get + 360 additional damage and feed the mob a ton of TP. You would be a sloppy DPS that could be out damaged by traditional 2Handers.

If they increase our Enspell damage drastically it will be main hand only with Enspell 2s. Increasing the potency while halving the duration of enspell 2s would work against the sustained DPS benefits of Enspell 2s. Enspell 2s are easier to balance since it takes time to increase your damage to something better than enspell 1s. SE has plenty to work with to make RDM better but not Over Powered.

[Trisscar]

Isn't it Mystic Knight that has enspells, not Rune.

Seeing as Rune Fencer utilises a GS as it's weapon, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't get Fencer.

I couldn't help but notice that the illustrations for RNF have them holding GS single handedly. Does this mean they have Monkey Grip (a FFt ability that allows one to wield a 2h weapon like a 1h)? If so I can see this ability being misused and getting a heavy nerf real quick.

[Neisan_Quetz]

It was stated they would hold it for rune usage probably, but not for actual combat.

[Trisscar]

Kind of like a magical focus?

[Protey]

Neither are strong at anything that SE or it's player base value. I mean come on, why tank when your DPS can be unkillable? You're just wasting time on silly things like diversity and play style. I mean this job isn't based on a diverse job system or anything...........



Nice try I guess? Enspells 1s doing 45 damage instead of 30 damage a hit would somehow catch us up to Resolution or Wildfire Spam? Even with Composure up you would still only get 4.5 minutes of enspells. If it's a 10 minute JA then half time RDM tyranny?

If you hit all 8 times you would get + 360 additional damage and feed the mob a ton of TP. You would be a sloppy DPS that could be out damaged by traditional 2Handers.

If they increase our Enspell damage drastically it will be main hand only with Enspell 2s. Increasing the potency while halving the duration of enspell 2s would work against the sustained DPS benefits of Enspell 2s. Enspell 2s are easier to balance since it takes time to increase your damage to something better than enspell 1s. SE has plenty to work with to make RDM better but not Over Powered.

You obviously didn't read the thread or do any research. If you had, you'd know that Rainemard casts T1 enspells that do hundreds of damage. So yes it could be offhanded, and yes we'd be awesome DDs.

[saevel]

Just saw this ... and ... wtf...


If they increase our Enspell damage drastically it will be main hand only with Enspell 2s. Increasing the potency while halving the duration of enspell 2s would work against the sustained DPS benefits of Enspell 2s. Enspell 2s are easier to balance since it takes time to increase your damage to something better than enspell 1s. SE has plenty to work with to make RDM better but not Over Powered.

Do you have any idea how poorly Enspell II's compare to the original versions? Their laughably useless, they don't proc on any DA / TA's and RDM happens to not only favor DWing for damage but has a spell that gives us straight 20% DA. At the end of the day Enspell II's would need to be ~2.5~3x stronger to be anywhere close to where Enspell I's are at. That's without counting how long it takes to build up their damage and the fact that the damage resets when you reapply them. And that's just to meet enspell 1 level of potency. Due to enspell damage not scaling anywhere near melee / WS damage, enspell 1's need to deal x2 to even be competitive.

SE just needs to drop the whole "only on first hit" bulvine scatology. Get rid of the "building strength" and make them just Enspell x 2.5 potency. There "balanced". RDM wouldn't be near where the WAR / SAM / MNK / DRK / DRG crowd is, but it would at least be an option, especially in scenarios where you know you might need magic and melee damage. Would be a niche use (PDT things) but would still be a strong candidate for those use's.

[ManaKing]

You obviously didn't read the thread or do any research. If you had, you'd know that Rainemard casts T1 enspells that do hundreds of damage. So yes it could be offhanded, and yes we'd be awesome DDs.

Try again troll, I'm the OP and this topic is about RDM/RNF. I was discussing using the supposed new job trait that RNF was getting that would increase enhancing potency by 50%. I wasn't talking about anything else besides a possible increase in enspell potency. I didn't say Rainemard level potency, I was asking for something realistic and pointing out that giving it to us wouldn't be broken.

I then pointed out that if they wanted to fix the existing Enspell 2s and make them viable, that they would already have counterbalancing mechanism in place to avoid them from being abused by sloppy RDMs with KCs. Sorry you're not good at reading and looking for a fight.



Just saw this ... and ... wtf...



Do you have any idea how poorly Enspell II's compare to the original versions? Their laughably useless, they don't proc on any DA / TA's and RDM happens to not only favor DWing for damage but has a spell that gives us straight 20% DA. At the end of the day Enspell II's would need to be ~2.5~3x stronger to be anywhere close to where Enspell I's are at. That's without counting how long it takes to build up their damage and the fact that the damage resets when you reapply them. And that's just to meet enspell 1 level of potency. Due to enspell damage not scaling anywhere near melee / WS damage, enspell 1's need to deal x2 to even be competitive.

SE just needs to drop the whole "only on first hit" bulvine scatology. Get rid of the "building strength" and make them just Enspell x 2.5 potency. There "balanced". RDM wouldn't be near where the WAR / SAM / MNK / DRK / DRG crowd is, but it would at least be an option, especially in scenarios where you know you might need magic and melee damage. Would be a niche use (PDT things) but would still be a strong candidate for those use's.

So no one is good at reading today or staying on topic? The topic is RDM/RNK and what we would like to steal from it.

I read that, 'Rune fencers will possess versatile abilities like one that cuts the duration of the next enhancing magic spell cast on them by half, but in turn amplifies the spell's effect 1.5 times, and another that erects a barrier that reduces magic damage.' and go on to point out that to use that with enspell 2s at all you would have to increase the potency significantly for them to pay off using this kind of a job ability.

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HOW BAD ENSPELL IIs ARE ALREADY. It has to do with looking at what would be necessary to make them work.

We are also talking about a job combination that probably isn't going to include Dual Wield, so please don't tell me about how Dual Wield is great again, because anyone posting in RDM forums on RDM DD should know that RDM/NIN is blatantly the best combination with Enspell 1s. So when I mention Fencer and Enspell 2s. It's because I'm anticipating that we wouldn't be dual wielding and I'm talking about what the possibilities could be to make that viable.

The likelihood of that being possible is very low, but since some of us can enjoy talking about theoretical game mechanics without being stuck to how it is currently, I thought it would be entertaining to discuss it.

Enspell 2s have the extra effect of lowering elemental resistance, which may or may not be relevant to enfeebling after they make the adjustments. I doubt that as well, but if RDM/RNK has the potential to make enspell 2 use semi-viable, I would like to show my interest in that line of reasoning mostly for the sake of us having a 2nd melee sub that is viable outside of /DNC for dynamis procs.

[Protey]

Try again troll, I'm the OP and this topic is about RDM/RNF. I was discussing using the supposed new job trait that RNF was getting that would increase enhancing potency by 50%. I wasn't talking about anything else besides a possible increase in enspell potency. I didn't say Rainemard level potency, I was asking for something realistic and pointing out that giving it to us wouldn't be broken.

I then pointed out that if they wanted to fix the existing Enspell 2s and make them viable, that they would already have counterbalancing mechanism in place to avoid them from being abused by sloppy RDMs with KCs. Sorry you're not good at reading and looking for a fight.



You're the one that isn't good at reading, or you're just an idiot. I had made a comment on Neisan_Quetz's comment on Rainemard's enspells. You then made a reply to my comment on Neisan_Quetz's and erroneously stated that "Enspells 1s doing 45 damage instead of 30 damage" even though Rainemard's is in the hundreds. I'm not trolling, you just don't know how to reply appropriately to someone's comment. You should have said what you had to say in a separate comment rather than posting it right after you quoted me speaking about Rainemard.

[ManaKing]

All I can hear is you continuing on about something that has nothing to do with RDM/RNF, which is the topic.

Stealing a job trait from RNF that increases enhancing potency by 50%, i.e. enspell 1s doing 45 damage, is valid discussion. Talking about Rainemard + KC has nothing to do with the topic other than you could add a KC to the above JA and get all of 360 total damage out of it and be a sloppy DPS, and thus not Rainmarde.

I dismissed your comment pretty much instantly as trolling since it's completely off topic and unrealistic. What good does it do anyone to talk about game mechanics that are obviously broken and would never be implemented? Does anyone really want to read another RDM thread about how we should be the top DD and KC all the things with 100+ damage enspells just like we were Rainemard?

It's been done before. It's boring. It makes RDMs look like unrealistic, stupid fan boys.

[Babekeke]

I believe the whole point of how Rainemard came into this was because someone suggested that by losing dual wield, the enspells would need to be over-poweringly good (like Rainemard's) for rdm/rnf to benefit over /nin. Then the KC zerg came into play, so it was all still on topic of a fashion.

[saevel]

I believe the whole point of how Rainemard came into this was because someone suggested that by losing dual wield, the enspells would need to be over-poweringly good (like Rainemard's) for rdm/rnf to benefit over /nin. Then the KC zerg came into play, so it was all still on topic of a fashion.

This.

Unless RNF provides some form of DWIII by 49 (for a job that specializes in Great Swords...) then it's not going to do more damage then RDM/NIN. I then went forth to explain how much DW increases your damage. Then afterward someone stupidly mentioned that "Enspell II" would be where the damage increase would be, I explained how woefully inadequate they are, in any context. Seeing as RDM/RNF would not have DW, we are needing a 5~6x increase in damage from Enspell II's (150~180 per hit) for it to come anywhere close to a RDM/NIN.

It might have a nifty JA or spell that becomes situational, similar to /PLD and /BLU, but for actual damage it's RDM/NIN or bust right now. Courtesy of barance bros.

[Demon6324236]

Well /DNC+Haste Samba gives same DPS if I'm not mistaken, unless your at absolute haste cap which is unlikely as it was said before. Also Haste Samba would help the rest of your party as well which follows suit with how RDM supports they party. So /DNC would be a viable option as well. TP lost from Samba should somewhat be regained by the TP you are not losing off Haste vs the DW you get with /NIN.

[Neisan_Quetz]

/Dnc will do less damage overall than Rdm/nin even with samba, it's for increasing anyone else in your party's damage if no one else is Dnc or /dnc.

I have no clue what the last sentence is trying to say.

[Demon6324236]

Haste = same TP/hit
DW = Less TP/hit because it counts as lowering your delay
The TP you spend on using Haste Samba can be somewhat recovered by the fact you are not losing TP/hit for having the 5% DW, because instead it is 5% Haste.
Said it when I first woke up so probably didn't sound as good to everyone else as it did to me.

[saevel]

Haste = same TP/hit
DW = Less TP/hit because it counts as lowering your delay
The TP you spend on using Haste Samba can be somewhat recovered by the fact you are not losing TP/hit for having the 5% DW, because instead it is 5% Haste.
Said it when I first woke up so probably didn't sound as good to everyone else as it did to me.

Doesn't work that way.

The TP vs time ratio gets really good past 450 and under 200 delay. This while you do get "less tp" per hit, you get more hits in and thus greater TP gain. /DNC Haste Samba is +5% haste not 10% that DNC gets (merits).

Going from 20DW to 30DW is 14.28% increase in DPS. It would take well over 50% haste before that 5% would be worth more then what DWIII would give you. The absolute biggest kick in the nuts is that your forced to use Enspell II's to get the effect of haste samba on your off hand hit. /DNC is about giving party members more damage at the expense of your own.

[ManaKing]

This.

Unless RNF provides some form of DWIII by 49 (for a job that specializes in Great Swords...) then it's not going to do more damage then RDM/NIN. I then went forth to explain how much DW increases your damage. Then afterward someone stupidly mentioned that "Enspell II" would be where the damage increase would be, I explained how woefully inadequate they are, in any context. Seeing as RDM/RNF would not have DW, we are needing a 5~6x increase in damage from Enspell II's (150~180 per hit) for it to come anywhere close to a RDM/NIN.

It might have a nifty JA or spell that becomes situational, similar to /PLD and /BLU, but for actual damage it's RDM/NIN or bust right now. Courtesy of barance bros.

Saevel, we are in complete agreement that RDM/NIN is what you are supposed to be doing to do the best DD we can. BUT that isn't what I was asking about on the topic for RDM/RNF and what can we steal from it. I'm asking what RDM/RNF could offer to make us want to use it.

People use RDM/DNC because it can proc in dynamis. I personally wouldn't use it anywhere else right now, because you lose a ton of damage and TP, not to mention useful Ninja Magic. It works in dynamis because you need to proc more than you need to kill quickly. After you're done procing, you probably have some steps and you can reverse flourish and WS and it's nifty. But outside of that kind of scenario, it loses every time to RDM/NIN because the step system on /DNC is at half potency. RDM/DNC only has functionality because SE made content that it can exceed RDM/NIN in functionality, outside of that, RDM/NIN wins every time because you get more DW and Ninja magic that works.

My current mindset is that, hopefully, SE gives us a system of enfeebling that actually benefits RDM because of what they can offer in the department of lowering magic evasion. Death Blossom, Enspell 2s, and access to Impact are all available. You can go RDM/NIN for Ninja Magic or you can also go RDM/DNC and use stutter step as options to further lower evasion.

What can RDM/RNF offer that can come anywhere close to this? I don't know, but I don't want RDM/RNF to have a meh niche roll like /DNC currently does.

[SpankWustler]

"Development Bro A looks at a translated note and asks a colleague, 'Wait, so, the goal is to make things good?' with earnest curiosity.

Development Bro B, as well as Development Bro C who overhears half the sentence from across the room, begin laughing uncontrollably. They laugh until they wet themselves. They laugh until the contents of their bowels pours into their slacks and wets their socks.

They laugh until they injure vital things inside of themselves.

They are still laughing as they are loaded into an ambulance.

The next day, Development Bro B calls the office and asks to be put on speaker phone in the meeting room. He slowly and deliberately says 'Tactical Guard,' then he hangs up the phone.

A look of profound realization overtakes the face of Development Bro A. Thinking back to the sickening memory of smothering his terminally ill mother with a pillow at her request, Development Bro A finds inspiration for Rune Fencer's job traits and abilities."

And that makes no sense but I feel it is a very accurate description of how the finer points of new jobs are designed, probably because it makes no sense.

I wouldn't expect Rune Fencer to be a very useful sub-job for Red Mage or a very useful anything for at least six months after its debut, if literally all jobs introduced with Treasures of Aht Ughan and Wings of the Goddess are anything to go by.

All I'm saying, I guess, is it's best to have very low hopes for what brand new jobs will accomplish, even as sub-jobs. So low that they're more like fears.

[ManaKing]

I dislike that I can't just make a statement like, 'well i'm sure they learned from their previous releases how to better roll out new jobs' without a large amount of apprehension.

[Scuro]

lol we all know that its going to be all about RNK/RDM, because everybody subs it but never mains it. Its like that girl that puts out but you never want to invite over for special occasions. That would be RDM. ;-)