Hey look another suggestion Thread, Except this one is awesome.

[Mordanthos]

Allright, everyone is crying about Emnity and how it has a low cap and people use DD for tanking cuz its easier to maintain a capped Threat than stay above everyone else who can cap it in an instant.

So we have two options here.

1.Remove the the cap from the threat table. If Tank is at cap threat and cant generate more threat, skills are wasted, and if some DD comes and explodes a load with a WS on some mobs face for 2-4k dmg, well, they instantly go to cap threat, and at that point, i dont think paladins have much of anything to snap up to capped threat instantly like that. By removing the cap, at least every action can be added to threat on the person with the highest threat, and because of this, the next time someone does that 2-4k dmg WS, perhaps its possible that it wont bring them higher than what the tank has generated, but maybe darn close.

Option 2 is actually a better option in my opinion, and it will allow a lot better strategy when it comes to losing threat, and gaining it back. Instead of removing the threat cap, we have an option to make Provoke do whats its suppose to do, and thats "Goad the enemy into attacking you". How do you ask? Simple!! Make Provoke bring your threat equal to or just slightly greater than the person with the highest threat. If you lose it, you can gain it back even for a moment, but at the same time, your next few actions can push you above quite a bit, lil flash, throw a heal, and BAM, ur back on top, rather than just being frustrated that your provoke didnt do anything. Another good thing about this option is that it cant be very abused, with Provoke on a 30 second cooldown, it can be used at the start of battle, and then be used later if you manage to lose the threat. This doesnt mean that putting you on top of the threat table is going to keep you there. You can very well just lose it instantly again right after you snap threat back with Provoke, and then you WILL have to wait 30 seconds for another chance at securing the agro.

I Vote option 2. But Both Options is the ultimate fix to everyones threat problems. Option two solves quite a bit of the problem.

[Cream_Soda]

I Vote option 2. But Both Options is the ultimate fix to everyones threat problems. Option two solves quite a bit of the problem.

Hate was never the problem, so if you're referring to PLD tanks with your post, it will do nothing to help them.

As long as a DD tank an stay alive and not lose hate to mages, they're going to be better than PLD.

Even if you did get a pld who could hold hate over a DD, there'd be no reason to have him in your group if the DD isn't in danger of dying and can hold hate off of the mages.

[Alderin]

I see one major flaw with option 1 at least.

The flaw is simply - hate reset.

For mobs that have a hate reset TP move, if the hate is uncapped, then it would be extremely difficult for a tank to pull hate back off a mage (especially towards the end of the fight) due to the fact that the mage has built up an extremely high amount of hate from cure-bombs, nukes, etc after a hate reset.

With a hate "cap" as such, it truly doesnt take long to get back on the hate list, however if this hate reset were to push you back to enmity of 0, when the mage has built up a huge amount of enmity, a provoke, flash, cure etc won't be able to get the hate off the mage.

With option 2 - that takes out any skill from a tank's perspective at holding hate. Lately with abyssea it does feel like SE is kind of "giving the game" to us by making it so easy to get exp etc etc, down to the point that there are loads of newer players on lvl 90 jobs that have NFI what they are doing.

If anything, I believe provoke simply needs to have a bigger effect. I wouldn't go as far to say as "put you equal to the top of the hate list." Especially as sometimes in higher-manned groups when there is 2x tanks, often the backup tank uses Provoke simply to be able to pull hate off the mages if the other dies. With option 2, this would pretty much eliminate provoke being useful for this case as you aren't trying to steal the hate off the main tank - just trying to have more or equal hate as the mages.

I personally dont even feel as though hate is an issue. If your a tank and you can't hold hate - your doing something wrong in my opinion. All tanking jobs have a reasonable amount of ways in order to hold hate in this game.

[Mordanthos]

ive had my fair share of someone doing a 4k dmg WS and popping flash, provoke, improved Sentinel through merits, have couple points in emnity from merits, shield bash stun pulls a good amount of threat, and a cure 4, and Invincible for the hell of it. And i didnt get threat back, so if im doing something wrong, then tell me what, cuz i used all the maximum enmity producing moves at my arsenal and i got nowhere

And it usually only takes provoke+Flash+shield bash and u pretty much have threat back, and if u absolutely have to, Sentinel pulls A LOT of threat, and when combined with provoke Flash shield bash and Sentinel and still get no progress on the mob looking at me then something is wrong here, and needs to be addressed. If threat were capped, that surely would have capped me as well, but now, it almost seems there isnt a cap if i didnt get threat back after all that was popped right as i lost it.

[Alderin]

If you do all that, and still couldn't pull hate off him, there isnt much you can do - whether hate is capped or not - it won't fix that issue. However gear & atmas do a lot, so that's the first place I would look if you couldnt get hate off.

Or solve the problem in a simple way - let the DD die.

[Runespider]

To fix the tanking classes they simply need to change the levels of hate each action gives, damage should have a very low amount of hate. This would make a DD tanking impossible because curing that DD would make it go kill the mages no matter how much damage they do, this would make tanks needed again.

In a group setup the hate should be tank > mages > DD. If a tank dies a DD should be unable to tank a mob because they simply can't build enough hate to do so, it should just run right over and wipe the mages if the group is unable to keep the tank alive.

[RAIST]

If you do all that, and still couldn't pull hate off him, there isnt much you can do - whether hate is capped or not - it won't fix that issue. However gear & atmas do a lot, so that's the first place I would look if you couldnt get hate off.

Or solve the problem in a simple way - let the DD die.

Hehe... more often than not... that's what winds up happening to me. Either the mob dies, or I do. But with all the lenity abbysites and the quick exp. recovery options available now, eating a little dirt now and then isn't such a big deal so long as the party survives.

Raist

[Niklz]

I think the better role of PLDs in the Abyssea era is to be the back up tank to a main dder like NIN, THF or MNK. Keep as much hate as possible on the enemy so when/if the dd-tank dies, the mob goes for the PLD. Usually by that time the PLD would have accumulated enough enmity to keep the monsters attention and can actually hold the mob by him/herself while everyone gets the ball rolling again for the dd-tank.
It's very easy to generate enough enmity on a mnk/war tank by spamming cure iv.

Happened to me on Raja. I was on pld and the mnk tank died, I generated so much enmity over time that I held hate for the rest of the fight, even when the dders were back up and unloading.

[NightDagger]

As a WHM since the PS2 NA release I can say that I have always loved PLD. it is a shame that they are obsulete now though. I have had times even in abyssea that the other healers are afk leaving me to cure 15 people, this creates alot of hate for a whm spamming Cure 5 & 6 (or 4 when timers are down). Once i reached lvl 60+ it was hard for me to pull hate off a PLD some were so good I could use benediction & still be safe. The problem now is the fact that the only jobs that are really good at holding the hate are MNK,DRK,SAM & WAR. Yes a NIN can deal a ton of damage with a WS but the DoT of the others job are far greater. It would be nice to see a fix to this a have NIN & PLD able to do their jobs again w/o having to constantly fight with the DD's. If something was either done to Provoke to help this or just add more base enmity to PLD. They are constantly nerfing/fixing jobs & PLD should be next on the list. I know alot of people that have a LVL 75 PLD and are not ever going to bother taking it to 90 just for the fact of it not having any use anyways.

A solution is needed here to help a Job Class that was once great & is now dead.

NightDagger
Server - Lakshmi

[Niklz]

I know alot of people that have a LVL 75 PLD and are not ever going to bother taking it to 90 just for the fact of it not having any use anyways.

PLD is in no way a useless job, it's just not as efficient in the world of Abyssea. People just need to utilize it in a different manner than what the PLD job was commonly known for.

[RAIST]

PLD is in no way a useless job, it's just not as efficient in the world of Abyssea. People just need to utilize it in a different manner than what the PLD job was commonly known for.

A thought just hit me, idk why it didn't strike me last week...but I was pulling a BUTTLOAD of hate one night on DRK with my old GS. I was 85/86 with roughly only @220 skill, poking things with a weaker Cobra Unit Sword (think that was the name, the one you get with allied notes around 55 I think).

Anyway... the thing I was wondering... have PLD's tried using a GS to see if they can get more DOT from it to generate more hate?

Raist

[Damane]

I want the 1 minute back I just lost, thread title is totally misleading and wrong ¬.¬.

[Niklz]

Anyway... the thing I was wondering... have PLD's tried using a GS to see if they can get more DOT from it to generate more hate?


I haven't no. I forgot PLDs can use Spinning Slash too. Might be something to try out when servers get back up.

[Niklz]

I want the 1 minute back I just lost, thread title is totally misleading and wrong ¬.¬.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkmOqQiDMEo

[Kavik]

The problem with using great sword is that you lose your shield which has been augmented in such a way or recent updates that it is silly to not use one. If you're intent is soley to keep hate though, great sword still will not help you through damage because the ws's you use are not based on things pld's have in abundance. So if you go pld for dmg, you make yourself just as squishy as any other DD and if you go pld to actually TANK you can't keep hate... it's a catch 22 if i've ever seen one.

[Alderin]

Hehe... more often than not... that's what winds up happening to me. Either the mob dies, or I do. But with all the lenity abbysites and the quick exp. recovery options available now, eating a little dirt now and then isn't such a big deal so long as the party survives.

Raist

Raistlin from Ragnarok? Drk that wears Twilight?

Yep can imagine so :P

If I am tanking and that happens, it's the DD's fault for pulling hate so I let him eat dirt.

Besides, you get 5k EXP off an NM most of the time anyway. The death EXP means nothing these days.

[RAIST]

The problem with using great sword is that you lose your shield which has been augmented in such a way or recent updates that it is silly to not use one. If you're intent is soley to keep hate though, great sword still will not help you through damage because the ws's you use are not based on things pld's have in abundance. So if you go pld for dmg, you make yourself just as squishy as any other DD and if you go pld to actually TANK you can't keep hate... it's a catch 22 if i've ever seen one.

hehe... Maybe a magian weapon could help offset it. I pull off a lot of crazy crap on jobs already supplementing my evasion rig with the evasion versions of some lines. Might be an interesting challenge for someone to see if they could make it work.

Raist

[Blaize122]

If you made provoke an ultimate hate move then there's a problem.
You just can't allow a brewed RDM to chainspell tier 4 magic, and then pretend like nothing happened.

[NightDagger]

If you made provoke an ultimate hate move then there's a problem.
You just can't allow a brewed RDM to chainspell tier 4 magic, and then pretend like nothing happened.

LOL nice. Now this is something that makes sense ^^

[Alderin]

Yes a NIN can deal a ton of damage with a WS but the DoT of the others job are far greater. It would be nice to see a fix to this a have NIN & PLD able to do their jobs again w/o having to constantly fight with the DD's.

I disagree with this.

Nin in a sense is now also a DD. Put RR and VV on and your DoT is nearly that of a mnk (yes I said nearly >_>)

Hit for about 200 / hit, double attack every 2nd turn, super low delay, and even if you only have Blade: Jin (being a STR and DEX mod - RR and VV is str & dex + major) you are still doing about 2k+ damage for a weapon skill which is decent.

Nin's are great tanks in abyssea, probably 2nd to MNK. In fact I personally believe SAM if anything is almost the gimped job out of the ones you mentioned.

[Alderin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkmOqQiDMEo

You owe me approximately 1:23 for that.

Man that is just dreadfully awful!

*waits for everyone to go click it now that I said that*

[RAIST]

yeah.. at least NIN's can also chunk more stuff at them to keep hate, especially if you luck up and manage to get some San's to burst.

Raist

[NightDagger]

Yeah a NIN is great & definitely great inside Abyssea (as a Tank/DD). MNK is just impressive, but it always was until they nerfed the base H2H years ago.....

PLD needs to get the same respect back imo. They were always a great tank but are slowly drifting away ( last time i /sea all 2800 people online, 4 PLD's lol)

On a different note. What server you on Raist? & Alderin? Is nice to be talking with sensible people instead of hatred all the time lol.

P.S. Thanks Alderin I just had to watch that video >.>

[Alderin]

I am on Ragnarok. Don't be misguided.. I can be a pr*ck at times. But can't we all? Our server is smallish from what I know, so most people get along to a certain degree. You see the same people standing / doing the same things all the time at least.

I know a couple of great PLD tanks in abyssea. They have their place, just not as high a place as MNK or NIN does at the moment. They just seem to be able to handle bigger, more badarse mobs.

And yeah Dagger (heh just finished FF9 and I keep thinking of you as a Princess), it's like telling someone not to think about a white polar bear.

[Niklz]

You owe me approximately 1:23 for that.

Man that is just dreadfully awful!

*waits for everyone to go click it now that I said that*

This one will give you nightmares;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjJ9WIGcUQs&feature=related

Ok. No more from me I promise.

[Alderin]

This one will give you nightmares;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjJ9WIGcUQs&feature=related

Ok. No more from me I promise.

o.O

Far out man, that's 2mins you owe me now. It's going up! Better like, start farming me a pop item or something.

[NightDagger]

This one will give you nightmares;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjJ9WIGcUQs&feature=related

Ok. No more from me I promise.

O.o dunno why i even clicked the link lol, need to get my hands to start listening to my head.

I wanna a pop item as well :P

[Cream_Soda]

Again, hate isn't really the issue. If DDs can tank and not die, 0 reason to use a pld, so I don't see why all these fix pld threads are revolving around enmity.

[Runespider]

Again, hate isn't really the issue. If DDs can tank and not die, 0 reason to use a pld, so I don't see why all these fix pld threads are revolving around enmity.

If damage given had a lower cap on hate they would be unable to tank.

[Myrrh]

My Pld is a ninja and I have zero problems.

[Cream_Soda]

If damage given had a lower cap on hate they would be unable to tank.
If that were the case, there are still jobs that can contribute more to a pt than PLD w/ other methods of holding hate. Like BLU (perfect candidate as well because they're also there for grellow !! procs) for example. You'd have to nerf blue magic as well.

Gimping other jobs is never the answer, lol.

[Runespider]

If that were the case, there are still jobs that can contribute more to a pt than PLD w/ other methods of holding hate. Like BLU for example. You'd have to nerf blue magic as well.

Gimping other jobs is never the answer, lol.

If you want balance and to rework the job system, sure it is. Pld is dead right now.

I said lower the cap on damage given, regardless of the source of it. Magic, physical etc. Then they could give the 2 tank classes more abilities and spells to be able to hold the cap at it's peak easier. If any DD, blm/blu/melee can't gain hate they can't tank.

The current system is good for a low man standpoint but it's not for a balanced class system MMO. Only 2 jobs should be able to cap hate at its highest point, nin and pld.

[Cream_Soda]

Many of blu's sources of enmity are not from physical damage spells. It's from things like their flash spell and other enfeebles.

Also, rdm was a more than capable tank before their hate spells got their enmity reduced. If all sorts of damage are nerfed for hate, rdm can just cure itself for hate and still be a better tank than PLD. Whose going to rip hate off a rdm if damage isn't going to cut it?

[Greatguardian]

After reading all of these godawful PLD fix threads I'm STILL unable to comprehend how it is that any good PLD is actually unable to cap hate within 30-60 seconds. I love to SC Light off my buddy's Almace PLD, 4k CdC > 6k Smite > 6.4k SC pretty much destroys things.

Are people seriously trying to play PLD with a PDT Magian Sword, a Gleaming Shield, using Sanguine Blade and Refresh atmas and expecting to keep hate or something? Get an Almace or a Baudelaire+2, use RR/GH/Apoc, sub Nin and offhand either a DA+ Khanda+2 or a STR or Dex Shamshir+2, use Chant du Cynge, and you will have no problems capping hate like everyone else. Want to use your shield? That's fine. It still shouldn't take more than 30-60 seconds to reach the hate cap. Then it just becomes a matter of whoever hit the mob last being the one with hate.

[Birdkiller]

Maybe they could increase the maximum enmity cap on monsters, but have it so no other jobs can actually stay on capped hate except PLD. That way, if melee jobs and magic jobs belt out 4k+ damage, they'll still reach the cap, but only for a short amount of time until they lose capped hate?

[Cream_Soda]

Maybe they could increase the maximum enmity cap on monsters, but have it so no other jobs can actually stay on capped hate except PLD. That way, if melee jobs and magic jobs belt out 4k+ damage, they'll still reach the cap, but only for a short amount of time until they lose capped hate?
It doesn't matter. Even if your pld can keep hate, why use one when you don't need one to begin with? Holding hate off a mnk for example doesn't doing you any good when the mnk can keep hate off the mages if you weren't there and not die. Then you're just an extra body on the mob, whether or not you have hate.

[Runespider]

Many of blu's sources of enmity are not from physical damage spells. It's from things like their flash spell and other enfeebles.

So keep current hate system on everything else the same but allow cures to exceed to an even greater cap and give the 2 tank jobs spells and abilities to again exceed the normal cap to its highest point (and those 2 jobs alone (and excessive curing) to be able to reach it's peak). No DD could hold hate off a tank and no DD could tank if they needed cures.

I'm against it personally cause I do most of the my stuff in lowman setups but that's how I would fix the class system if I didn't play, they won't do it ofc cause these forums are as close to the devs ear as my foot but still.

[Cream_Soda]

So keep current hate system on everything else the same but allow cures to exceed to an even greater cap and give the 2 tank jobs spells and abilities to again exceed the normal cap to its highest point (and those 2 jobs alone (and excessive curing) to be able to reach it's peak).

I'm against it personally cause I do most of the my stuff in lowman setups but that's how I would fix the class system if I didn't play, they won't do it ofc cause these forums are as close to the devs ear as my foot but still.
Then you'd just have cure based jobs tanking, like RDM. Rdms have no problem in the damage mitigation department, and now w/ cures having more hate, they'd just use that as their source of enmity and you still wouldn't need a pld.

They'd have to change the game to where any job that can contribute more to a party than PLD when looking at non tanking specific cannot keep the monster's attention over the members who can't afford to get smacked around.

[Runespider]

Then you'd just have cure based jobs tanking, like RDM. Rdms have no problem in the damage mitigation department, and now w/ cures having more hate, they'd just use that as their source of enmity and you still wouldn't need a pld.

True but I did say give the 2 tank jobs abilities and spells to exceed the hate caps easier aside from simple cures, holding hate with cures would work but spamming cure4 with a cure cheat would be inferior to what they could offer the 2 tank jobs in new spells and abilities. Why bring an rdm when you could just bring a nin or pld and they be able to do the job easier and better, honestly I would be fine with there being 3 tanks and rdm being one of them. It would still be better than the current system.

[Greatguardian]

The current system is the same as the old system. The only difference is that a larger percentage of DDs in the game sucked and didn't own PDT/MDT sets while PLDs did. All that's changed is players got better at the game.

[Cream_Soda]

True but I did say give the 2 tank jobs abilities and spells to exceed the hate caps easier aside from simple cures, holding hate with cures would work but spamming cure4 with a cure cheat would be inferior to what they could offer the 2 tank jobs in new spells and abilities. Why bring an rdm when you could just bring a nin or pld and they be able to do the job easier and better, honestly I would be fine with there being 3 tanks and rdm being one of them. It would still be better than the current system.
yes but people are trying to fix pld.

Nin can tank fine as it is now.

Going w/ this system, there would still be no use for a pld.

[Gadanae]

I disagree with this.

Nin in a sense is now also a DD. Put RR and VV on and your DoT is nearly that of a mnk (yes I said nearly >_>)

Hit for about 200 / hit, double attack every 2nd turn, super low delay, and even if you only have Blade: Jin (being a STR and DEX mod - RR and VV is str & dex + major) you are still doing about 2k+ damage for a weapon skill which is decent.

Nin's are great tanks in abyssea, probably 2nd to MNK. In fact I personally believe SAM if anything is almost the gimped job out of the ones you mentioned.

Spoken from a NIN Abyssea tank. I have minimal problems holding hate in Abyssea but as stated before it's all bout Atma. RR, GH, and Apoc is what I normally use. Occasionally I will substitute GH for VV. Depends on the mob, or my mood. I can and do pull hate completely off PLD tanks in Abyssea with my setup, and hold it off them with ease. But we're also not talking about the good geared end game tanks. Those are a little bit harder to pull hate from, if not impossible. PLD tank in Abyssea is still a viable option in my opinion, coming from an end-game linkshell where PLD tanks with Aegis, etc. main tank everything we have done. And they hold hate just fine, for the most part. Every PLD I know suffers from losing hate to high damage WS's from a DD. It's just common sense folks, if you have a DD come in and lay out 2-5k damage on a WS, you are going to lose hate. Simple fix, let stupid DD's die that have to flex their muscles and do God-like damage, instead of being safe and coming in only to WS a mob and stand out. That's why there is regain Atma's. It's all about the mechanics of fighting in this game. Start of a fight is the time to allow tanks to gain emnity, and when you are dealing with smart people, they realize that a tank is a tank for a reason, to keep the entire alliance alive. So most DD that have brains do not purposely try to pull hate off the tank. BLM has Emnity Douse for this reason, though I find myself most times having to yell at BLM's to use it, almost as if they forget they have it.

Simple answer, let the tanks tank. They are built to evade/take the damage. Let them do their job and if you are losing hate to a DD, maybe that DD needs to stay the hell off the mob.

If anything, maybe give more DD jobs the hate cleansing abilities that DRG and BLM have (i.e. Super Jump, Emnity Douse) so when they do WS and pull hate they can drop it just as quick.

[Greatguardian]

If a DD dies because they're dealing damage, either they, or their WHM, are doing something wrong. If a DD sits out on the sidelines and comes in only to WS, they may as well not be there at all. PDT sets exist for a reason; if the melee doesn't have one, that's the problem, not the fact that they're dealing damage (ie, doing their job).

[Gadanae]

If a DD dies because they're dealing damage, either they, or their WHM, are doing something wrong. If a DD sits out on the sidelines and comes in only to WS, they may as well not be there at all. PDT sets exist for a reason; if the melee doesn't have one, that's the problem, not the fact that they're dealing damage (ie, doing their job).

While I agree that the term DD or Damage Dealer, implies that their job is to do damage, DD does not imply doing damage consistently or staying in on a mob that when fed TP does nasty nasty TP moves left and right. Smart parties and alliances do what they can to NOT feed a mob TP, because they realize that feeding a mob TP usually can end up in full alliance death much quicker.

In my personal opinion any DD in Abyssea that has regain Atma's should accept sitting on the sidelines until a mob is staggered appropriately, and then only full attacking a mob when given the word to do so by a tank. Any DD that feels that this does not "conform" with doing their "job" is probably sufferering from a huge ego disorder and feels that taking hate off tanks and making it harder on the mages is "fun", and therefore, is an idiot. It might be fun for you, but it hell on everyone else in your alliance and you do not endear yourself to people like that. Every successful end-game linkshell that I have ever been in for the most employs this concept. If you don't like standing there building your TP and only coming into WS then maybe you shouldn't play a DD job.

As stated before, let the tanks tank.

And also, as stated before, that instead of adjusting hate control for tanks, maybe giving DD jobs hate cleansing abilites like DRG and BLM have would be a more viable option.

[Cream_Soda]

Smart parties and alliances do what they can to NOT feed a mob TP,

If you have THAT many people at once, you split up and fight more NMs. There's no reason for any number of people to just sit there and do nothing.

[Greatguardian]

While I agree that the term DD or Damage Dealer, implies that their job is to do damage, DD does not imply doing damage consistently or staying in on a mob that when fed TP does nasty nasty TP moves left and right. Smart parties and alliances do what they can to NOT feed a mob TP, because they realize that feeding a mob TP usually can end up in full alliance death much quicker.

In my personal opinion any DD in Abyssea that has regain Atma's should accept sitting on the sidelines until a mob is staggered appropriately, and then only full attacking a mob when given the word to do so by a tank. Any DD that feels that this does not "conform" with doing their "job" is probably sufferering from a huge ego disorder and feels that taking hate off tanks and making it harder on the mages is "fun", and therefore, is an idiot. It might be fun for you, but it hell on everyone else in your alliance and you do not endear yourself to people like that. Every successful end-game linkshell that I have ever been in for the most employs this concept. If you don't like standing there building your TP and only coming into WS then maybe you shouldn't play a DD job.

As stated before, let the tanks tank.

Our experiences must differ, then. Every successful Endgame shell I know of laughs heartily at the concept of DDs sitting around using Regain and Meditate.

Ninja and Monk may have some defensive edges over Warrior and Dragoon, but none of these jobs are so frail that they would 'Make a mage's life miserable' by going in and taking some damage. Sure, I wouldn't be dumb enough to give 4-5 melees to a single WHM. Yeah, that would make their lives suck. But who the hell does that any more anyways?

If you have more than 4-5 Melees on a single monster anyways, that's just a total waste. Split people up and let 2-3 DDs handle things on one NM while 2-3 DDs handle another NM. Yes, I'm including Nin and Pld as DDs. Pld can hold its own fine with the proper setup. It's not going to outdamage a MNK, WAR, or NIN, but neither will most other jobs in the game. Expecting melees not to get hate is dumb when any DD worth his salt will cap hate in 1-2 WS (Including NIN and PLD).

[Vinc]

Refresh my memory, why do we want there to be one tank (PLD)?

[Greatguardian]

Refresh my memory, why do we want there to be one tank (PLD)?

I'm more concerned with why people think PLD can't hold hate. I mean yeah it's a subpar DD, but CdC isn't much worse than Blade: Hi =/. Enmity is the least of PLD's concerns.

[Gadanae]

If you have THAT many people at once, you split up and fight more NMs. There's no reason for any number of people to just sit there and do nothing.

/agree. That's why my linkshell is usually fighting 2 NM's at once and we break up into 2 balanced teams.

[Glamdring]

the comments about pld being obsolete really only apply to Abyssea, they still seem to function just fine on the new 90-ish mobs outside. The big problem is that while other jobs all got huge atma boosts all of the paladin atmas seem to address survivability without addressing enmity. Either give pld an atma that puts their hate threshold through the roof (and that would be undesireable for anyone in a non-traditional meat shield build) or put some enmity down on the DD atmas; many of the casting atma builds seem to include a bit already. Give pld a JA that is an AoE Accomplice type thing, something! Paladin was clearly built with 1 major purpose, to blood tank, and the job has not been redefined for a different role. Make damage resisted off the max a mob could do cause a hate spike (i.e. your def being used will trigger hate). there's alot of ways to go that SE could explore.

[Gadanae]

Our experiences must differ, then. Every successful Endgame shell I know of laughs heartily at the concept of DDs sitting around using Regain and Meditate.

Ninja and Monk may have some defensive edges over Warrior and Dragoon, but none of these jobs are so frail that they would 'Make a mage's life miserable' by going in and taking some damage. Sure, I wouldn't be dumb enough to give 4-5 melees to a single WHM. Yeah, that would make their lives suck. But who the hell does that any more anyways?

If you have more than 4-5 Melees on a single monster anyways, that's just a total waste. Split people up and let 2-3 DDs handle things on one NM while 2-3 DDs handle another NM. Yes, I'm including Nin and Pld as DDs. Pld can hold its own fine with the proper setup. It's not going to outdamage a MNK, WAR, or NIN, but neither will most other jobs in the game. Expecting melees not to get hate is dumb when any DD worth his salt will cap hate in 1-2 WS (Including NIN and PLD).

I agree wholeheartedly with your post. My linkshell runs things exactly the way you mentioned. Except for DD's going "full out" on mobs. We prefer to allow our tanks to build high emnity first, then we send DD's in, based on healer's MP, etc. And it really depends on the mob as well. When you are dealing with a seal NM that quite literally can be killed in less then a minute with 2-3 DD's, then no, there isn't a reason to take that kind of caution. I was referring to mobs that are much more difficult then that (i.e. Rani or Raja). When these mobs are fed a large amount of TP they wipe alliances. It's best to keep the TP feed to a minimum.

[Greatguardian]

the comments about pld being obsolete really only apply to Abyssea, they still seem to function just fine on the new 90-ish mobs outside. The big problem is that while other jobs all got huge atma boosts all of the paladin atmas seem to address survivability without addressing enmity. Either give pld an atma that puts their hate threshold through the roof (and that would be undesireable for anyone in a non-traditional meat shield build) or put some enmity down on the DD atmas; many of the casting atma builds seem to include a bit already. Give pld a JA that is an AoE Accomplice type thing, something! Paladin was clearly built with 1 major purpose, to blood tank, and the job has not been redefined for a different role. Make damage resisted off the max a mob could do cause a hate spike (i.e. your def being used will trigger hate). there's alot of ways to go that SE could explore.

A Paladin with Apoc, RR, and GH atmas using Chant du Cynge will cap hate without issue. It's not like VIT atmas are doing jack anyways =/

Edit: For Rani or Raja, I wouldn't bring an alliance anyways. I mean, I suppose if people need the win they can sit on the sidelines, but that's not really counting towards the total number of people. Mnk, War, Nin, Whm, Brd, maybe a second Whm for safety can handle both mobs while proc'ing both Red and Blue and not having much trouble. If I wanted to be extra super careful I could just have either the Nin or War stand out of AoE range in case someone got ganked. Less is more, and it seems we agree on this, but there's really no point adding random DDs into the alli in the first place. Either they're leeching the win, which is fine, or they're fighting; middle ground there just makes things more complicated.

Personally I don't bother waiting for any particular person to build hate, since any DD I know is more than capable of handling themselves if they take hate (and since we'll all cap it anyways it will happen). The only thing that bothers me is this "DDs are squishy and die if the mob looks at them so DO NOT DO DAMAGE OR YOU WILL TAKE HATE AND MAKE US WIPE" sort of mentality I've been seeing all over the place. Heck, people in the Haste thread mentioned being unable to use the proper sub on their jobs because their linkshells will scream at them if they deal any damage. That is just plain stupid.

[Glamdring]

Refresh my memory, why do we want there to be one tank (PLD)?
noone said we do, but pld isn't really set-up to fulfil any other role well. What pld are asking for is to be in a viable role.

[Glamdring]

They could also change the mob behavior so it only changes target if something PASSES the current highest hate, not ties it. If a pld had already hit the hate cap then the mob would not change target as often as long as they keep thier hate from being reduced somehow.

[Gadanae]

the comments about pld being obsolete really only apply to Abyssea, they still seem to function just fine on the new 90-ish mobs outside. The big problem is that while other jobs all got huge atma boosts all of the paladin atmas seem to address survivability without addressing enmity. Either give pld an atma that puts their hate threshold through the roof (and that would be undesireable for anyone in a non-traditional meat shield build) or put some enmity down on the DD atmas; many of the casting atma builds seem to include a bit already. Give pld a JA that is an AoE Accomplice type thing, something! Paladin was clearly built with 1 major purpose, to blood tank, and the job has not been redefined for a different role. Make damage resisted off the max a mob could do cause a hate spike (i.e. your def being used will trigger hate). there's alot of ways to go that SE could explore.

An interesting concept. /approve.

[rog]

Not sure how either one of these things would help pld.

[Greatguardian]

I'm still lost as to why a PLD needs more Enmity anyways. Any Chant du Cygne PLD with proper atmas and gear can max their Enmity without any issues at all.

[rog]

I'm still lost as to why a PLD needs more Enmity anyways. Any Chant du Cygne PLD with proper atmas and gear can max their Enmity without any issues at all.
They don't, and the only ones who don't seem to realize that is plds.

[Vinc]

noone said we do, but pld isn't really set-up to fulfil any other role well. What pld are asking for is to be in a viable role.


or put some enmity down on the DD atmas; many of the casting atma builds seem to include a bit already

Are you sure you're not asking for Pld to be the only tank? It looks like it to me. Pld should stay dead if it means another nerf for the rest of the jobs.

[Gadanae]

A Paladin with Apoc, RR, and GH atmas using Chant du Cynge will cap hate without issue. It's not like VIT atmas are doing jack anyways =/

Edit: For Rani or Raja, I wouldn't bring an alliance anyways. I mean, I suppose if people need the win they can sit on the sidelines, but that's not really counting towards the total number of people. Mnk, War, Nin, Whm, Brd, maybe a second Whm for safety can handle both mobs while proc'ing both Red and Blue and not having much trouble. If I wanted to be extra super careful I could just have either the Nin or War stand out of AoE range in case someone got ganked. Less is more, and it seems we agree on this, but there's really no point adding random DDs into the alli in the first place. Either they're leeching the win, which is fine, or they're fighting; middle ground there just makes things more complicated.

Personally I don't bother waiting for any particular person to build hate, since any DD I know is more than capable of handling themselves if they take hate (and since we'll all cap it anyways it will happen). The only thing that bothers me is this "DDs are squishy and die if the mob looks at them so DO NOT DO DAMAGE OR YOU WILL TAKE HATE AND MAKE US WIPE" sort of mentality I've been seeing all over the place. Heck, people in the Haste thread mentioned being unable to use the proper sub on their jobs because their linkshells will scream at them if they deal any damage. That is just plain stupid.

You sound like you play a DD job. Forgive me if I've assumed wrong. I sympathize actually. My 90's (that I actively play, are well geared, capped skills and I actually KNOW what i'm doing on that job) are MNK NIN THF BLM WHM DNC RNG. I am a lead tank in my linkshell, and yes, we evasion tank everything we kill. Evasion tanking though is touchy at best. While it can be easily done in Abyssea on the majority of everything there, hate degration happens very quickly, especially if you have DD's beating on the mob right along with you, and popping off high damage WS's. Hence the reason why we wait to send DD's into the fray. With a PLD tanking though, this scenario should greatly change, I agree with you.

Also let me say, that yes, a DD sitting on the sidelines (I do it on MNK all the time in Abyssea) is boring, and very much seems to be a waste of time. But once again, it all depends on the situation. A PLD tank tanking? Enough healers in the alliance to cover the DD's taking hate? In a low-man situation this is not always available. But again, I see your point.

[Greatguardian]

I have MNK, PLD, NIN, SAM, COR, WHM, RDM on my main character so I can most certainly see things from a Pld's perspective; which is part of why I'm so baffled as to the actual complaints of so many PLDs on these boards. My Mnk is easily my best geared job, but none of the others are slouches (aside from lolSam, I've let that go downhill a bit admittedly) and my PLD was, until the level increase, one of the main tanks in my linkshell assuming we weren't short on WHMs (when it became a choice between sending in a backup tank or plain not having a healer). Whether I'm Counter-tanking on Mnk, Eva tanking on Nin (which I make sure to maintain capped Haste with), or tanking on Pld, Enmity is the least of my concerns and hardly changes between the 3. All 3 can easily do upwards of 3,000 damage per WS, so even though my MNK destroys my Nin and Pld in terms of overall Damage, it doesn't make any sort of difference from an Enmity standpoint because all 3 jobs will have capped Enmity by the second WS.

Sure, I may take MNK and NIN out more often than my PLD, but that's because my MNK has Blue procs and the highest damage potential of the 3, and my NIN has Red/Grellow procs. If I needed PLD procs I'd bring PLD, but the only Reds it has that a NIN wouldn't are Freezebite and Sunburst. But since PLD lacks Shadow of Death, NIN+PLD won't cover all 13 Reds. War+Pld obviously won't cover them either, as anything PLD has, WAR has too. The only time I can see myself having to bring PLD for Red is if the War or Nin was missing skills and needed gaps filled in; but that's both rare and dumb.

If PLD wants a bonus that makes it more attractive, look for offensive abilities. It has an A+ skill weapon and monster weaponskill access, but since its best sub is Ninja (which also has no offensive JAs as a sub), it has practically no active abilities that would benefit its damage output.

[Runespider]

Ultimately Square don't really care about balance anymore anyway, not like they have for a while. So the job system being skewed makes very little difference.

The emnity things I mentioned would be a good step but a lot would still need to be added to the jobs to make it work (like damage mitigation auras or something to allow you to put more onto a mob that would normally be a pain), especially for pld, they won't do any of this in reality though and I can see things pretty much just staying as they are now.

Only thing I can see bringing pld back to some manner of importance in reality is if they add mobs which have a lot of -dmg taken and/or are difficult to gain hate on in other ways, Dark Ixion was a decent example of this in the past I think. That will make the hate tools more important than the dmg they do, thats about the best I can see Square actually doing. They won't rework the hate system or change much at this point.

[Billnye]

I wrote up a little tidbit in the pld section here:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/2549-The-Paladin-Paradigm-A-Shift-for-Better-Balance

Hope to help shed some light on the situation. Would love some feedback on it. :)

[Mordanthos]

All i see are repeated responses about PLD enmity isnt the problem, blah blah you can cap hate easily with CdC. Yeah thats not the problem, PLD is an awesome tank in Abyssea, they literally take little to 0 dmg. The issue isnt being able to cap it, the issue is that the cap is tooooooo low. Yeah thats amazing you can cap hate with that CdC, but not too long after you cap it, is someone else going to cap it, and then what? It's just going to bounce back and forward, and its at this point of bouncing back and forward, where the job is broken, because now, there is no "real way" to "keep" the enemy on you. If not for the threat cap being so low, PLD would be outstanding and the best tank by far, they mitigate dmg to rediculous proportions. And i dont give a crap if a MNK can tank with pure brute force and survive with cure bombs, wouldnt it be easier to just barely have to heal the pld at all "WHILE" a monk beats the crap out of something.

[Vold]

All i see are repeated responses about PLD enmity isnt the problem, blah blah you can cap hate easily with CdC. Yeah thats not the problem, PLD is an awesome tank in Abyssea, they literally take little to 0 dmg. The issue isnt being able to cap it, the issue is that the cap is tooooooo low. Yeah thats amazing you can cap hate with that CdC, but not too long after you cap it, is someone else going to cap it, and then what? It's just going to bounce back and forward, and its at this point of bouncing back and forward, where the job is broken, because now, there is no "real way" to "keep" the enemy on you. If not for the threat cap being so low, PLD would be outstanding and the best tank by far, they mitigate dmg to rediculous proportions. And i dont give a crap if a MNK can tank with pure brute force and survive with cure bombs, wouldnt it be easier to just barely have to heal the pld at all "WHILE" a monk beats the crap out of something.

You can't just up the hate cap without breaking the rest of the game. Believe it or not, and this might cause heart attacks, but Abyssea isn't going to remain the be all end all content. And the way you fix this issue is to design content that doesn't give mages unlimited MP and melees god mode. Plain and simple. It doesn't have to be content everyone does day in and out like exp. End game content is perfectly fine. And according to how reps talk this is exactly how they are going to go about it.

[RAIST]

They actually could do a simple tweak for PLD. Give them a trait/ability at 90 that somehow gives them extra headroom on the cap. If the enmity counter is restricted because of the bit count on the value, then implement a soft cap that restricts the cap to all jobs to a lower value, and give PLD a trait/ability that makes it go to the hard cap. Let Volatile hate still spike to the hard cap, it will fall quickly and that player would be at matched hate only briefly while it decays and they fall back to the soft cap again. Granted, this could be a nightmare to code with the volatile spikes being allowed to still hit the cap briefly, but it would be the answer to preserving balance.

Example:

Value is an 8 bit field, logically limited to run 0-255.
Place a software cap at the 7th bit, so by default everyone can only go to 223.
PLD gets a trait or JA that activates that 8th bit only for them, allowing them to go to 255.
Volatile hate from a WS, provoke, Nuke, etc that has a fast decay rate is still allowed to spike briefly to that 8th bit, but because of the nature of volatile hate, it would quickly decay and jobs would once again be capped to 223.

That way, the only way anyone would take hate off the PLD at level 90 would once again be only for the volatile spikes, but (if the PLD is doing their job) the PLD would be able to reclaim and hold the hate a gain. The catch with this idea is coming up a way to manage the volatile spikes from jobs without the PLD JA/Trait so that it can still spike to the hard cap. Might need to be something where when anyone does something to hit the cap, a check is made to see if the PLD JA/Trait is present for that player. If present, hate is capped and plays by normal rules, if not then it is capped for 30 seconds and then is immediately dropped to the soft cap.

Alternatively, they could just increase the decay of hate maybe. Means PLD will have to work harder to maintain the caps, and it wouldn't be as much a sure thing...but it could help balance things out a bit more.

Edit: to clarify ways to balance volatile hate spiking in original idea

[Atomic_Skull]

Value is an 8 bit field, logically limited to run 0-255.
Place a software cap at the 7th bit, so by default everyone can only go to 223.

7 bits is 0-127 Every bit you add onto a binary number doubles the maximum possible number that can be represented.

Also, Volatile and Cumulative enmity both cap at 10,000 units each.

[RAIST]

brain fart... havent' done binary translation in my head since high school. But you get the idea. It actually goes to like 14 bits or something for each of VE/CE according to some of the guides out there. The point is, there is single point that they can easily cut off and isolate just for PLD to use if they wanted. Probly not the high bit though now that I think about it--that would be a swing of like 8k or something.

But they could just as easily put a numerical value in the database for CE to cap at like 8192 for all other jobs, but let PLD scale to 10k CE with a job trait/JA active. That way, other jobs would still be able to grabe hate brielfy from VE, but not hold it because of CE unless that PLD is not keeping that CE above 8192 with that trait/JA.