Report Those User Agreement Violations!

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

It has recently been brought to my attention that it is a violation of the FINAL FANTASY XI User Agreement to post "content with the intention of criticizing... Square Enix staff(.)" Now, as you may have noticed, there's a great deal of criticism of Square Enix staff going on in the FINAL FANTASY XI forums lately, so there's a great deal of work for the moderators to do!

In order to help the moderators ensure that these forums continue to be a positive and uplifting place, one where the Square Enix staff are completely free of criticism, I think it's important that we all do our part to report any and all posts critical of Square Enix staff, saving our moderators the work of having to find these posting violations.

So please, do your part and click that little "Report Post" icon in the lower-left of every post you see that criticizes Square Enix staff.

Every. Last. One.

[Tamoa]

lolblahblahnowthispostcontainsenoughcharacters

[Hercule]

http://i.qkme.me/4xrq.jpg

[Daniel_Hatcher]

PMSL really!!??

Also against the rules to post pointless topics, like this one.

PS. Congrats on the replies yet no views for this topic. :)

[cidbahamut]

I like where this thread is going. I'm totally on board with this.

[Habu]

L
O
L

Reallllyyyyyy?

[Randwolf]

I guess someone got spanked and is now a little grumpy. I'm sure the community will jump right on and try to help you get your revenge.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Really.

http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1&tag=forum


In order to keep the forums a pleasant place for everyone, please adhere to the following guidelines. Note that these guidelines are incorporated into the Square Enix Account Terms of Use(.)

In addition to the restrictions set out in the Square Enix Account Terms of Use, the following actions are not allowed while participating in the forums.

Posting aimed to create a negative impact on the community or its members.
Posting seeking to damage or disparage Square Enix, the forum, FINAL FANTASY XI, or others.
Posting content that criticises either Square Enix staff or specific individuals.


As signatories to the User Agreement, we should do our part to fight against "negative" comments that "disparage" Square Enix or "criticize" their staff.

It's already been enforced against me. I would like to make sure it's enforced in a consistent manner.

[Randwolf]

...It's already been enforced against me. I would like to make sure it's enforced in a consistent manner.
And there it is. I'll get right on it.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Really.

http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1&tag=forum


[/LIST]

As signatories to the User Agreement, we should do our part to fight against "negative" comments that "disparage" Square Enix or "criticize" their staff.

It's already been enforced against me. I would like to make sure it's enforced in a consistent manner.

As people who PAY to play this game, we can criticise them as much as we deem fit, especially if they are worthy of said criticism due to being lazy etcetera..

[Habu]

Everyone we must band together and help this outstanding forum citizen get his just revenge on those who reported him. We must all spam the report button on those speaking negatively against SE the almighty, and bring peace and serenity back to these forums.

diaf

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

We must all spam the report button on those speaking negatively against SE the almighty

I would just like to clarify that I am in no way endorsing any sort of "spamming," which itself would appear to violate the FINAL FANTASY XI User Agreement. I only suggest that the "Report Post" button be used to legitimately report violations of the terms as written.

[Habu]

K I started by reporting this thread

[Dragoy]

Yer, that's nothing new.
And yer, I actually read stuff like that!

I still find it borderline hilarious. ^^

[Zeroe]

Seeing as how we pay to play, we have a right to voice our opinions if the SE dev team won't take appropriate actions. Seeing as how the game turned to utter crap after you know who came back, I'll voice my opinions as much as I like, even if that means having to hurt the "pride" of our very dear SE team.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Seeing as how we pay to play, we have a right to voice our opinions

You wouldn't be here if you did not sign the FINAL FANTASY XI User Agreement. In the Agreement, you acknowledged that you cannot make such posts on these forums. You also consented to disciplinary action by Square Enix if you violated the terms of the Agreement.

[Habu]

Seeing as how we pay to play, we have a right to voice our opinions if the SE dev team won't take appropriate actions. Seeing as how the game turned to utter crap after you know who came back, I'll voice my opinions as much as I like, even if that means having to hurt the "pride" of our very dear SE team.

Don't try to put all the blame on Tanaka

[Daniel_Hatcher]

K I started by reporting this thread

This!

This thread is a new low of ; ;

[Dragoy]

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo,

I liked your previous recent signature much more, though obviously it would have been a violation as well. Ð:

Also, who or what is “Sybil”?


In all seriousness, there would not be many a post if those rules were enforced to the letter (cough, same for in-game stuff). For one, this exact thing about criticising, and for another, how on-topic everything should be (everything needs to be related to FFXI and so on, so on...).

It's more than likely up for the judgement of a moderator dealing with a certain post at a given time, so there usually is some leeway. Of course, I'm merely speculating, and one could speculate on the life-span of this thread just as well, no matter how 'correct' and right-on-topic it is. =/

(It might incite unwanted posts and all that nice stuff.)

I do agree though, that everyone should make use of the report feature though only when one personally deems it necessary, not because “that guy with the onion-cut told me to”. ^^

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

I liked your previous recent signature much more, though obviously it would have been a violation as well. Ð:

Yeah, I decided I need to be "by the book" from this point on, have all my ducks in a row, etc.



Also, who or what is “Sybil”?


Typo fixed. >.>


It's more than likely up for the judgement of a moderator dealing with a certain post at a given time,

Yeah, in my opinion (IANAL), the Agreement is written to allow Square Enix discretion on deciding when and how disciplinary action is taken. But there is a difference between "discretionary" and "arbitrary," and I would like to make sure enforcement on these forums doesn't end up in the latter category.

I do find myself questioning the great apparent need to enforce the "no criticism" clause, but I do so in only a positive and constructive way!


that guy with the onion-cut

All these years and it never occurred to me that it looked like an onion (a star onion?). I always assumed it was an acorn...

[Dragoy]

I do find myself questioning the great apparent need to enforce the "no criticism" clause, but I do so in only a positive and constructive way!

Agreed. I also find it very, VERY silly if that what you had in the signature was indeed a reason for action for them...
I mean come ooon. >.>


All these years and it never occurred to me that it looked like an onion (a star onion?). I always assumed it was an acorn...

Heh, well I think I thought of it as an onion at first/always I guess. Acorn might be more accurate, though.

S.O.B., good point. Perhaps a Star Onion Brigadier indeed...
One of my earliest quests ever completed, ha!

[Glamdring]

ok, why do I get this sense of an impending "Bitch-Slap of Doom!"?

phear the pimp hand... it may come for you

[Draylo]

Please report all the Doomsday prophets, ty

[Camiie]

The Square Enix Staff uses an ugly model in game, has a thumbnail that doesn't even match the item, can only be equipped by jobs that would never use it, has pathetic stats for its level, and has much too low a drop rate.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

After further research, I think I've devised something of a decision matrix/flowchart for posting!


You may not "damage or disparage" the company, the forum, the game, or "others." That last category seems to include "each other."
As for "criticism," only "Square Enix staff or specific individuals" are protected. Again, this seems to include "each other" (boy, those mods must be a busy lot!). However, this still leaves the game itself, as well as these forums, open to criticism!


Also open to criticism are groups (not "specific individuals") and apparently any other aspect of Square Enix that can't be described as "staff" (contractors? suppliers? shareholders?).

Of course, the difference between "criticize" and "disparage" is probably up to the "discretion" of Square Enix. Mods' will be done, on forums as it is in game...

[wildsprite]

last I checked as long as you keep it civil you can criticize anything on these forums, that being against the rules would go against the point of these forums to begin with

besides that, if you have a real problem with a staff member, the forums isn't the place to put it, the higher ups of SE aren't likely going to read the forums unless a problem is brought to their attention, calling out said staff member on the forums would be pointless

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

last I checked as long as you keep it civil you can criticize anything on these forums,

"De facto" and "de jure" are two different things. I already provided a link where you can read for yourself the letter of the Agreement you signed.


besides that, if you have a real problem with a staff member

From my own direct experience, I can tell you that "Square Enix staff" seems to include the staff as a whole (e. g. no criticizing "the devs") as well as individual staff members. Criticizing FINAL FANTASY XI itself is implicitly permitted, but anything more "meta" than that (such as Square Enix's publishing or staffing decisions, which are external to the game itself) is not allowed in these forums.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

So an actual worthwhile thread like the one on .dat's goes, yet this pointless junk created by someone who's just mad they got banned is still around, how?

[Zyla420]

1. critisism for a major company like SE is needed, and actually a good thing.
it tells the ppl in charge that either:

A. they are fuckin up and need to get their asses back on the ball cause ppl are unhappy with their service/product, giving them the incentive to fix things that are wrong.

B. reinforces ideas that the company has made in a positive light when they are received well by the community/consumers, thus giving themselves a road to follow in order to come up with new ideas to make their service/product even better.

2. alot of the critisism on these forums is quite warranted as SE over the past year has shown it's playerbase that they simply do not in any way care about our opinions or ideas that can make their own product achieve more success.

nor do they care about what the community/consumers want, as we have been ignored time and time again, even when we have offered viable solutions to problems they are having. simply put, our ideas aren't their ideas, thus they will not be used or it will hurt their over-glorified sense of pride...

3. somebody got butthurt cause you offended them somehow and busted your balls, now you're butthurt because of this in retrospect. my only advice to both you and whichever lil peon whom got his feelings hurt: suck it up buttercup, stop bein a sissy....

[Chamaan]

Res ipsa loquitor lorem ipsum loquitor.

You can't even call this revenge or anything. It's just spiteful and childish snitching. "BUT TIMMY HAS FIRECRACKERS TOO"

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Res ipsa loquitor lorem ipsum loquitor.

Argumentum ad hominem.


It's just spiteful and childish snitching.

"Snitching?" But if you don't violate the Agreement, you have nothing to fear, do you? Otherwise, by your own signature you have no other option but to go elsewhere.

[Aldersyde]

Res ipsa loquitor lorem ipsum loquitor.

You can't even call this revenge or anything. It's just spiteful and childish snitching. "BUT TIMMY HAS FIRECRACKERS TOO"

The whole mod system is based on snitching. Some people on these forums report any post that disagrees with them if there's any hint of "meanness" (bahhhh how dare you criticise me or tell me I'm wrong!). Mods don't even look posts unless their attention gets called to it. I've seen posts get nuked while the other posts littered with foul language and "aggressive tones" in access of the nuked post remain. The only reason they stay is because no one calls attention to them because most people know what debate entails and don't take things personally, others are, well, babies, and get their panties in a bunch when someone says something they don't like then they hit the report button.

My only gripe with this board is lazy moderation. All conversations have context, if one post is in violation, chances are there's a dozen more equally in violation but the mods don't even look at them.

Whoops, criticised SE. Looks like this post will get nuked too.

[Robmelee]

All I got to say is, Who stole the OP's Honey Nut Cherrios? I guess I would be mad too if my cereal was gone. >:/

[wildsprite]

All I got to say is, Who stole the OP's Honey Nut Cherrios? I guess I would be mad too if my cereal was gone. >:/~snickers~ hmm, I thought someone peed in his coffee and ate his doughnuts

[Babekeke]

It's already been enforced against me.

Oh No! If they ban your char from the forums you'll have to start using your REAL CHAR and then everyone will know who you are!

Remember also that criticism isn't all bad, so in all truth, the user agreement is also saying that anyone who posts POSITIVE CRITICISM of SE staff should also be reported.

"Great new update, Development Team! Definately got this one right" >>> This is a violation of the user agreement and so your account will now be locked.

Edit: The user agreement doesn't state that you can't criticise the user agreement itself, either^^

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Oh No! If they ban your char from the forums you'll have to start using your REAL CHAR and then everyone will know who you are!

The interesting thing about posting with your lowest job rather than your highest is that you get to see who's more interested in the messenger than the message. It also highlights who pays more attention to the level than the job.


Remember also that criticism isn't all bad, so in all truth, the user agreement is also saying that anyone who posts POSITIVE CRITICISM of SE staff should also be reported.

Quite true!


Edit: The user agreement doesn't state that you can't criticise the user agreement itself, either^^

No, it's only "Square Enix staff" that are shielded from criticism. Everything else about Square Enix is fair game for "criticism," so long as it doesn't become "disparagement."

[Catsby]

OP seems a bit buttmad that he got in trouble with the moderators and wants to make sure everyone else does as well.

[Juilan]

It has recently been brought to my attention that it is a violation of the FINAL FANTASY XI User Agreement to post "content with the intention of criticizing... Square Enix staff(.)" Now, as you may have noticed, there's a great deal of criticism of Square Enix staff going on in the FINAL FANTASY XI forums lately, so there's a great deal of work for the moderators to do!

In order to help the moderators ensure that these forums continue to be a positive and uplifting place, one where the Square Enix staff are completely free of criticism, I think it's important that we all do our part to report any and all posts critical of Square Enix staff, saving our moderators the work of having to find these posting violations.

So please, do your part and click that little "Report Post" icon in the lower-left of every post you see that criticizes Square Enix staff.

Every. Last. One.

Hmm........................ This bloke is pointing a catch 22, entrapment, the point of this board is tell SE why they're doing a horrible job at making content... if not we'd just go back to BG or killingifrit defeating the purpose of having this.

[wildsprite]

It has recently been brought to my attention that it is a violation of the FINAL FANTASY XI User Agreement to post "content with the intention of criticizing... Square Enix staff(.)" Now, as you may have noticed, there's a great deal of criticism of Square Enix staff going on in the FINAL FANTASY XI forums lately, so there's a great deal of work for the moderators to do!

In order to help the moderators ensure that these forums continue to be a positive and uplifting place, one where the Square Enix staff are completely free of criticism, I think it's important that we all do our part to report any and all posts critical of Square Enix staff, saving our moderators the work of having to find these posting violations.

So please, do your part and click that little "Report Post" icon in the lower-left of every post you see that criticizes Square Enix staff.

Every. Last. One.

its usually people like this that couldn't keep their arguments civil, got into some sort of an argument with a mod or community rep, or maybe even both, became offensive then got reported and or banned for a short period of time, he really doesn't understand what he did wrong, so now he thinks every comment that doesn't agree with an SE staff member must be offensive and must be reported

honestly, if you don't really understand what you yourself did wrong, you only create more hostility toward yourself by doing this kind of thing

constructive criticism is welcomed by anyone who is civil and wants to better themselves, negative criticism isn't welcomed by anyone, learn the difference and you will go far in life

[Tsukino_Kaji]

I still like how a third of the people on the forum post things that highlight their ToS violations in game.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

honestly, if you don't really understand what you yourself did wrong, you only create more hostility toward yourself by doing this kind of thing

There was no "argument" and, with the offending post being a single sentence about 15 words long, no opportunity for confusion about exactly what it was I did wrong. My sarcastic tone warranted the moderators' invoking of the "negative impact" rule, but the "criticising Square Enix staff" rule could only have applied in the broadest possible sense: speaking ill of man-hour distribution between XI and XIV is verboten.

Suggesting that rules enforcement around here is random and haphazard is, by itself, against the rules. Therefore, the only thing left to do is try to aid consistent and even-handed enforcement, while encouraging others to do the same.

[Randwolf]

There was no "argument" and, with the offending post being a single sentence about 15 words long, no opportunity for confusion about exactly what it was I did wrong. My sarcastic tone warranted the moderators' invoking of the "negative impact" rule, but the "criticising Square Enix staff" rule could only have applied in the broadest possible sense: speaking ill of man-hour distribution between XI and XIV is verboten.

Suggesting that rules enforcement around here is random and haphazard is, by itself, against the rules. Therefore, the only thing left to do is try to aid consistent and even-handed enforcement, while encouraging others to do the same.

You got spanked and, pretty much, no one cares. People are not going to start hitting the report button like crazy because, again, no one cares. Take your punishment like a man (or woman) and quit crying. It's not like everyone is blind to what you are hoping will happen. Get on with your life.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

It's not like everyone is blind to what you are hoping will happen.

Good, because I can't say it out loud without violating the Square Enix Account Terms of Use.

[wildsprite]

I can say it, you're hoping everyone who says something against SE staff will end up butt hurt like you, you really are just wasting energy with this because, the only one's that agree with you had the same happen to them already, move on, it isn't worth it

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

I can say it, you're hoping everyone who says something against SE staff will end up butt hurt like you

No, that's not it at all. Please try again.

[wildsprite]

I love how you select the parts you like and ignore the rest of the post, it isn't worth it, what you are attempting wont likely even make a dent, good luck though

[Dragoy]

I agree with him (I saw the 'offending' post as well I think, and it's ridonkulous actually that it would ever warrant a punishment of any kind here, or anywhere else). And no, I've not had any such thing happen to myself.

Calling him 'butt-hurt' and all that is definitely far from constructive, as well as from adding anything to the conversation about the issue.


Disclaimer: I do not know Ziyyigo-Tipyigo in any ways except from what I have seen him or her or other posting here; this is simply my opinion. There are several more appropriate ways it could have been handled, how I would have handled it, but of course, this is not my forum ^^;

Just hoping they will do everything in their power to be 'balanced', and I'm quite sure they do, but I still see what happened here as a pretty silly thing...


Cake tare, everybody~

[Zyla420]

I didn't see the offending post, and even if it was something that i honestly wouldn't feel should warrant a punishment, shit happens. the OP is being "butt-hurt" in a sense cause all he's doing is crying saying "this happened to me, and not everyone else that does it!".

lemme put it another way, if you're speeding going 65 mph in a 45 mph zone, and a cop pulls you over but didn't see the asshole that flew past you doin 80, does that change the fact that you're still in trouble and getting a fine? no it doesn't. is it fair? no it isn't. whining to the cop about it is only gonna piss him off, whining to ppl you know only makes them want to get away from you cause you're complaining that life isn't fair. of course life isn't fair, it sucks, you learn to deal with it and move on.

[Dragoy]

I don't think an example of speeding compares to anything like this at all, but yeah, I know what you mean, and of course it is as you say. It's not that I was saying you're wrong or anything, or that I believe that this thread actually can better things as these things aren't really open for discussion (could easily see the thread get locked/removed completely).

Guess you could say that I see the thread as a kind of a joke. That is not to belittle the seriousness of it, but I don't really see it being able to do any good (nor harm), or change the way they think about their policies and all. What I guess I'm trying to say, there are lots of 'worse' threads around here than this, and I doubt Ziyyigo-Tipyigo is as hurt as some might think (could just as well be, too).


Meh, too sleepy-tired to make any sense even in my own mind so I will apologise beforehand for any possible head-aches ensuing from trying to read this.

[Zyla420]

imo i think speeding analogy was a completely logical comparison, 2 or more ppl broke rules, only one got caught and is now mad at the lack of fairness. again this is my own opinion, and you could be right, this entire thread could be a giant joke and the OP could be laughin his ass off at the amount of seriousness being put into it. who knows?

[Dragoy]

Zyla420,

The reason why I think they're not really comparing is because this is quite something that is up to the moderator to decide on how to handle it, while speeding can, and will actually endanger lives so it's obviously a bit more concerning if the police does not play by the book, so to speak.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

if you're speeding going 65 mph in a 45 mph zone, and a cop pulls you over but didn't see the asshole that flew past you doin 80, does that change the fact that you're still in trouble and getting a fine?

Car analogies? In my internets?

Let's go with that analogy, but make a few adjustments.

The speed limit on this stretch of Interstate is 55
I was caught going 60.
Every speed limit sign on the road is behind a tree or otherwise obscured.
Every other car on the busy road is going 65+


Without The Rules in plain view (they're hidden away on the support pages), it's only natural to "go with the flow" and use the already established pattern of behavior of everyone else. However, when everyone else is also breaking The Rules, this allows the enforcers to pick and choose how to enforce by personal whim (e. g. DWB).

This highlights systemic problems.


The rules, as written, are unenforceable, even if S-E chooses not to acknowledge (let alone admit) this. Any honest, good faith attempt at enforcement by S-E would bring everything to a grinding halt.
Even if the rules were enforceable, if they were actually enforced, these forums would end up being useless, both to players (who would go elsewhere to vent their frustrations) and to S-E (who would be trying to harvest feedback from empty forums).


It also permits abuse by moderators. It could be intentional or unintentional, and it could even be real or imagined. But even having the appearance of abuse degrades people's sense of trust and faith in the system overall and the enforcers in particular (e. g. DWB).

It's funny that you use speed limits in your analogy, as I've long since made a habit of religiously setting my cruise control at the speed limit, much to the anger and frustration of countless drivers who have been behind me. My general philosophy is that, if one has a problem with a rule, one should work to change the rule rather than to simply ignore it; after all, with respect to speed limits, you are able to vote for or against the people who set them.

Of course, I can't "vote" here (and, in fact, literally signed away most of my rights just by being here), but there are other ways one can agitate for change (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work-to-rule).

[Llana_Virren]

Car analogies? In my internets?

Let's go with that analogy, but make a few adjustments.

The speed limit on this stretch of Interstate is 55
I was caught going 60.
Every speed limit sign on the road is behind a tree or otherwise obscured.
Every other car on the busy road is going 65+


Without The Rules in plain view (they're hidden away on the support pages), it's only natural to "go with the flow" and use the already established pattern of behavior of everyone else. However, when everyone else is also breaking The Rules, this allows the enforcers to pick and choose how to enforce by personal whim (e. g. DWB).

This highlights systemic problems.


The rules, as written, are unenforceable, even if S-E chooses not to acknowledge (let alone admit) this. Any honest, good faith attempt at enforcement by S-E would bring everything to a grinding halt.
Even if the rules were enforceable, if they were actually enforced, these forums would end up being useless, both to players (who would go elsewhere to vent their frustrations) and to S-E (who would be trying to harvest feedback from empty forums).


It also permits abuse by moderators. It could be intentional or unintentional, and it could even be real or imagined. But even having the appearance of abuse degrades people's sense of trust and faith in the system overall and the enforcers in particular (e. g. DWB).

It's funny that you use speed limits in your analogy, as I've long since made a habit of religiously setting my cruise control at the speed limit, much to the anger and frustration of countless drivers who have been behind me. My general philosophy is that, if one has a problem with a rule, one should work to change the rule rather than to simply ignore it; after all, with respect to speed limits, you are able to vote for or against the people who set them.

Of course, I can't "vote" here (and, in fact, literally signed away most of my rights just by being here), but there are other ways one can agitate for change (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work-to-rule).

The (unfortunate) reality with this scenario (and the scenarios it alludes to), is that if you are speeding, you're guilty, regardless of the comparative guilt of other people.

I say it is an unfortunate reality because, more often than not, the "they're guilty too, but you're the one who got caught" line is usually fed to avoid actually addressing the issues of bias and favoritism.