HNMs and the future of FFXI

[Habu]

I think the game in it's current state is focused mainly on casual gameplay, but what about those who still want to play the game as it was in the past? There's no real content (outside of final chamber Legion) that focuses on people who are wanting harder game content. Now I'm not advocating that HNMs in the past were hard but they were fun to camp (at least the 21-24 repop ones). I believe that bringing back/recreation of HNMs in some form and I don't mean buy a pop item and go out there to spawn them, would bring some life back to the endgame community. There's no real competition left in the game, and I know I speak for at least a few of the older generation players who say that they miss this thrill. So my question to the reps, do you think there will EVER be any new timespawned HNMs that will drop gear that is worthwhile?

[Alhanelem]

I don't think anybody misses the thrill of sitting at a camp spot for hours on end waiting for an NM to pop. Ah, I loved trying to gather people for a quest or BCNM then OH SHIT TIAMAT POP EVERYONE RUN OUT then you get there, some botter LS claims it, and you sit there for 7 hours while they can't kill the damn thing hoping they wipe but they don't. So thrilling! The only way you could miss this is if you are the person or the LS that started drama at every opportunity.

When you spend more time playing iSketch or some other game being idle on FFXI, you know you haven't designed content well.

[Habu]

I'll assume you probably never really efficiently claimed HNMs before so you've probably never experienced the thrill of claiming one way back when. People actually took pride in the gear they obtained then because it actually took some effort to get it. It adds a sense of competition that the game is lacking in an endgame setting not including PvP. What's the difference from sitting at a camp waiting for a NM pop rather than sitting in Port Jeuno waiting for a VW shout? Nothing. Yes you could make a VW party but in the time it takes to fill the party, organize jobs, and kill that set it would equal the 3 hours you spent at a camp. Did you miss the part where I mentioned 21-24 hours HNMs and last time I checked Tiamat was a 48 hour NM.

[saevel]

I'll assume you probably never really efficiently claimed HNMs before so you've probably never experienced the thrill of claiming one way back when. People actually took pride in the gear they obtained then because it actually took some effort to get it. It adds a sense of competition that the game is lacking in an endgame setting not including PvP. What's the difference from sitting at a camp waiting for a NM pop rather than sitting in Port Jeuno waiting for a VW shout? Nothing. Yes you could make a VW party but in the time it takes to fill the party, organize jobs, and kill that set it would equal the 3 hours you spent at a camp. Did you miss the part where I mentioned 21-24 hours HNMs and last time I checked Tiamat was a 48 hour NM.

WTF horse hocky is this?

Thrill .. .... "efficiently claim".....

Pray tell, oh master of unseen knowledge, HOW DO YOU EFFICIENTLY CLAIM a world spawned HNM?

/ja Provoke <t>

and that's pretty much it.

Unless your talking about boting, which was a plague and a disease on the game.

So take your claptrap and go away.

[Habu]

Oh yes the only HNMs that are 21-24 hour are ones that are in BD, VoS, and Dragon's Aery, which requires only "spam" voking. Please go /ja "Provoke" Dark Ixion and tell me how that will work out for you. Yes beating the piss out of your Provoke macro will claim you an NM as soon as you see it, it doesn't take the patience to give it a few before using provoke. I know sarcasm is hard to pick up over the internet so I'll go ahead and say that last sentence was laid thick with it.

[Zerich]

Oh yes the only HNMs that are 21-24 hour are ones that are in BD, VoS, and Dragon's Aery, which requires only "spam" voking. Please go /ja "Provoke" Dark Ixion and tell me how that will work out for you. Yes beating the piss out of your Provoke macro will claim you an NM as soon as you see it, it doesn't take the patience to give it a few before using provoke. I know sarcasm is hard to pick up over the internet so I'll go ahead and say that last sentence was laid thick with it.

no one wants HNM...
btw (/ja "Chi Blast" <stnpc>) or gtfo

[Habu]

Guess you're all just too casual to understand

Edit: Just tired of mobs where all you have to do is proc > kill or pop a brew.

[Zerich]

Guess you're all just too casual to understand

For a taru, your INT stat is pretty gimped.
What, you mad that the game is more accessible than before?

[Habu]

Never said that, but there should be something that caters to those who still take the game a little more seriously than VW and making more Emps. Legion has sufficed for that until you beat final chamber, which is the only chamber that requires any real effort.

[newmonkey]

Actually there is a lot of people who stil want hnms to come bck myself included, the game is in a terrible state there is lots of stuff for the casual players to do. So yes they should add some hnms for the people who want to do that and now with the new odin coming they can add the furture hnm drops to him like they did in the past so the casuals still have a chance at the gear.

That been said good luck getting people to back it on here.

[Arcon]

I also like HNMs, as do several other people. But this particular horse is deader than most other horses in this forum, which is saying a lot. It'll just escalate, people from the one camp will say HNM are retarded and everyone liking them are retarded, then the other camp will accuse the first camp of being gimps and noobs for not claiming mobs, then the first camp will accuse them of cheating and botting, and it will all culminate with people insulting each other's mothers at some point. Nothing has ever been so predictable. Just stop it now and save everyone a headache. The suggestion has been made, it's up to the development team to see what they'll do about it.

[Reiterpallasch]

no one wants HNM...
I'd imagine lots of people still want HNM. Maybe not the "sit in a tree and come back from afk every 30 minutes" kind, but stuff like Dark Ixion and Sandworm were unique in that they spawned nearly anywhere, so for the most part everyone was on an equal playing field as far as claiming goes. Actually killing it when you got it on the other hand is another story, and the truly dedicated and skilled linkshells were able to take it down and get some of the best loot in the game, designed for the best players in the game.

The majority of people on this forum don't want HNM though, even if they've never ever done them. This is a very casual forum full of casual players (not necessarily a bad thing) that feel everyone is entitled to all of the best gear no matter what. Bad at the game? Here, have the best gear! Great at the game? Here, have the best gear!

I for one don't share that opinion though, and firmly believe that there should be certain gear that's only available to the truly elite who deserve the best for being the best.


btw (/ja "Chi Blast" <stnpc>) or gtfo
Who the hell used MNKs back then? (We sure as hell didn't)

[Camiie]

I'll assume you probably never really efficiently claimed HNMs before so you've probably never experienced the thrill of claiming one way back when.

I experienced the "thrill" of claiming NMs. No I didn't. I was there day after day after day, and we were pretty successful, but here was no "thrill." The only thing close to a positive emotion I got from the process was a sense of relief. I was relieved when the NM finally spawned. I was relieved when it finally died. I was relieved when something finally dropped. There was no "thrill." There was no gambler's high or whatever you want to call it. All I ever got was "Thank God that's over!"

The BEST feeling for me is simply knowing that I have friends willing to help me do the things I want to do. That's a much better feeling than beating someone else to the punch on some NM.


People actually took pride in the gear they obtained then because it actually took some effort to get it.

Did I appreciate and take pride in what I accomplished back then? Of course. Mostly that was due to my LS-mates believing that I deserved what dropped, and had little to do with the actual process. I feel just as much pride now when I obtain something from Abyssea or when I scrounge up the gil to buy something nice off the AH. The pride is that I have done something to improve my character. I have taken a step forward. That's all I really need.



It adds a sense of competition that the game is lacking in an endgame setting not including PvP.

Competition is fine as long as it's friendly. Aery Wars were not. How many otherwise decent people did you have to /blist simply so they wouldn't try to screw with you while claiming NMs? And how many had to do the same for you and your LS? How many times did you LOL at some LS that had a bad time with an NM? Heck sometimes the venom got really personal between rival LSes. What kind of community does that build? It may build camaraderie within an LS, but it creates incredible animosity between them. That kind of competition just isn't worth it.


What's the difference from sitting at a camp waiting for a NM pop rather than sitting in Port Jeuno waiting for a VW shout? Nothing.

One could easily turn that statement back around on you, but I won't. The difference is that in Jeuno I have options. I have a lot more freedom than if I'm stuck in Aery for 3 hours. It's a lot easier in Jeuno to say "This isn't working out. Screw it, I'm doing something else."

[Habu]

I experienced the "thrill" of claiming NMs. No I didn't. I was there day after day after day, and we were pretty successful, but here was no "thrill." The only thing close to a positive emotion I got from the process was a sense of relief. I was relieved when the NM finally spawned. I was relieved when it finally died. I was relieved when something finally dropped. There was no "thrill." There was no gambler's high or whatever you want to call it. All I ever got was "Thank God that's over!"

If you didn't have that experience then no one would twist your arm and make you do it again. As I've stated people who want to play the game "hardcore" would have something to do. If this doesn't apply to you then don't do it? Simple concept.


Did I appreciate and take pride in what I accomplished back then? Of course. Mostly that was due to my LS-mates believing that I deserved what dropped, and had little to do with the actual process. I feel just as much pride now when I obtain something from Abyssea or when I scrounge up the gil to buy something nice off the AH. The pride is that I have done something to improve my character. I have taken a step forward. That's all I really need.

I hardly can compare obtaining a piece of gear from Abyssea to getting some big from old HNM, DI/SW etc. That's me though and everyone has their own opinion.


Competition is fine as long as it's friendly. Aery Wars were not. How many otherwise decent people did you have to /blist simply so they wouldn't try to screw with you while claiming NMs? And how many had to do the same for you and your LS? How many times did you LOL at some LS that had a bad time with an NM? Heck sometimes the venom got really personal between rival LSes. What kind of community does that build? It may build camaraderie within an LS, but it creates incredible animosity between them. That kind of competition just isn't worth it.

Sorry but I've never /blisted anyone, regardless of how annoying they may be. Friendly competition is something you do amongst friends not something you do against "rivals". Regardless if you hated one another there was still some level of respect that was transferred in the process. How many times have I LOL'd at a LS having trouble with a NM? The same amount of times I've LOL'd at people doing other retarded things in the game.


One could easily turn that statement back around on you, but I won't. The difference is that in Jeuno I have options. I have a lot more freedom than if I'm stuck in Aery for 3 hours. It's a lot easier in Jeuno to say "This isn't working out. Screw it, I'm doing something else."

Turn my own point against me? I was simply stating you've traded in sitting in DA for sitting in PJ, I don't know exactly how that can be turned around but ok. There's other options rather than sitting and camping, such as don't camp the NMs. Although I'm getting the suspicion that if HNM were ever to be released that you would camp them just to have that "top teir" gear.

[saevel]

Guys look as his post count. Guaranteed he's from the place that shall not be named and only trolling for something to post in the Media forum.

[Habu]

Yes I post on BG and FFXIAH, no I'm not trolling. This is a direct place for devs to read player feedback which is why I posted here.

[Hercule]

We are ALOT of players to miss World Pop old school drama HNM, even if on this forum most of users just love casual gameplay...
I really would like REAL HNM back with Skillchain > magicburst mechanics (fuck Perfect Defence -> Zerg)
FFXI is just boring currently, and since i have all items i wanted, i don't have anymore goal in this game and this is sad...

We need unattainable/ultra hard goals... SE and Casual players have to understand that

Its my thread here about this: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/18977-Suggestion-How-to-reintroduce-HNMLS-gameplay-in-FFXI-Lv99%E2%80%8F

[Spiritreaver]

Guess you're all just too casual to understand

Edit: Just tired of mobs where all you have to do is proc > kill or pop a brew.

What i don't get is all you ppl who talk about the game being on 'easy mode' now. Now you'll prolly just say my following suggestion is <insert derisive adjective here>, but so be it.


Have you guys craving for the uber challenge thought to try and do Abyssea content without all the killer buffs?


No Atma. No cruore buffs. No intentional trying for procs. No use of temps. No popping chests? Sounds pretty hardcore to me. When you enter Abyssea, you are not forced to get anything other than time. Well, what do you think Habu? Care to give it a try? Care to find 17 other ppl that want to give it a shot?

I doubt it, because its so much easier to sit back and ride the "lolbyssea is too easy" train when taking full advantage of the perks available in those zones. Isn't it?

Reminds me of the days of ToAU when ppl were so puffed up and mighty and saying how Assault was a complete joke...but the never tried using any of the settings other than uncapped when starting a mission. Or how in general. the FFXI community will figure out the bare minimum amount of jobs/ppl needed to complete a task then proudly proclaim the event "Too weak".

Challenges are there if ppl want them. Truth is most of the ppl clamoring for that challenge will opt out of it in a heartbeat when easier options arise.

[Camiie]

Turn my own point against me? I was simply stating you've traded in sitting in DA for sitting in PJ, I don't know exactly how that can be turned around but ok.

You said that there's no difference in sitting in Jeuno waiting for a shout and sitting in Aery waiting for a spawn. If there's no difference then you shouldn't have a problem sitting in Jeuno waiting for a shout. That's how the point can be turned back on you.


There's other options rather than sitting and camping, such as don't camp the NMs.

Do or don't is pretty lame as options go.


Although I'm getting the suspicion that if HNM were ever to be released that you would camp them just to have that "top teir" gear.

Hell no. I do the best I can with events that I can find enjoyment in or on the AH. If I don't find something fun I'm not doing it. I've grown as a person and evolved as a gamer. I won't sacrifice my happiness and sanity for shinies anymore. I won't return to a system that I have to schedule my life around. I'm just letting SE know that if they want to implement content like that it's wasted on me and anyone who thinks like me. With their limited manpower and resources they need to know where to focus them to please the most people. Well, assuming they care about that.

[Dazusu]

I don't think anybody misses...

I miss it, and I know many other people who do (that don't post on the forums).

But unfortunately, OP, people on these forums can't fathom the possibility of multiple types of end-game content. Infact, they detest the idea of world spawn HNM so much - that they can't understand how other people might enjoy it - and if they do understand it, they'll slate it anyway because they themselves don't like it.

It wouldn't even be so bad if they introduced HNM that did -NOT- have unique drops, but rather drops also available in other places so that no one is forced to take part in HNM. (The same way Ridill, Ebody, etc should have been added to KS99 Wyrm back at level 75)

As Arcon pointed out above, though, it's never going to happen. Give up and move on, if such a thing were introduced to the game again the vocal minority on the forums would shit their pants and all hell would break loose.

[Alhanelem]

I'll assume you probably never really efficiently claimed HNMs before so you've probably never experienced the thrill of claiming one way back when.You'd be assuming incorrectly. I've fought every major HNM from before Wings of the Goddess, most of them several times. I've camped more Faf/nid adaman/aspi behemoth/KBs than you could imagine. I know exactly what it's like to pull and claim HNMs. Fighting the NM itself is the fun part. The drama surrounding claiming it is not.

Seriously... you'd have to be on some kind of drugs to enjoy every-30-minutes-for-3-hours spawn windows and multi-day repop times. The only way you can enjoy it is if you're a drama llama that stirs up trouble for your own entertainment.

I dont' want to sit in one place for hours doing absolutely nothing before maybe or maybe not fighting an NM. I just want the damn thing to pop so we can get on with it.

There are plenty of HNMs in the game. If you really like fighting them so much, fight them. But most people who don't bot and don't like being idle for hours on end don't like them. The shift to popped NMs was a good thing for the game. All the thrill of the fight, none of the "thrill" of GM call wars and accusations of botting and people talking shiat.

[Dazusu]

I dont' want to sit in one place for hours doing absolutely nothing before maybe or maybe not fighting an NM. I just want the damn thing to pop so we can get on with it.

And again, you wouldn't have to. Just like you don't have to do Legion, VW, Limbus, Dynamis, Einherjar, Abyssea, Missions, Quests, Salvage now. You pick and choose what you want to do. Some people want to enjoy new HNMs, why do you feel the need to tell those people that they'd need to be intoxicated to enjoy such things? Just because you don't?

The only possible argument against them that makes any real sense is: "I don't want HNM if they carry the new top tier of gear" - and in that case, I would completely agree with you. Being forced to camp 8~9 hours a day for the 'top tier' of gear.. I wouldn't go back to doing that again.

But adding HNM with side-grades, or duplicate drops from other places - why not?

[Alhanelem]

Some people want to enjoy new HNMs, why do you feel the need to tell those people that they'd need to be intoxicated to enjoy such things?I'm not telling them they need to be, I'm telling them they probably are. There's a difference.


But adding HNM with side-grades, or duplicate drops from other places - why not? Who would do it with no real incentive? You're not going to find any of the competition you revel in if there isn't a highly desireable drop, because you'd have to search the whole server to find enough people for just one group.

Look at legion - it's got HNMs galore. If you like fighting them, it should be right up your alley, and it only has useless items and a few sidegrades. Based on your post, it would be perfect.

[Dazusu]

I'm not telling them they need to be, I'm telling them they probably are. There's a difference.

Technicality.


because you'd have to search the whole server to find enough people for just one group.

That's where I think you're mistaken. You assume that absolutely no one wants this content - but that's just not true. I know it's not the most popular for all of the systems flaws, but even when HNM were changed - people were still camping them up until that day - and people continue to camp Tiamat.



Look at legion - it's got HNMs galore. If you like fighting them, it should be right up your alley, and it only has useless items and a few sidegrades. Based on your post, it would be perfect.

I am actively participating in Legion.

[Alhanelem]

It's easy to say "Why not?" for any piece of content or any change to the game. The "Why not?" is 'It's not worth the development time." Even simple changes, the development time is a consideration. We get or don't get a lot of things based on how long the devs think it would take to implement / how hard/easy they think it would be. They're lazy and we pay the price. So unless that changes, they need to please the largest number of people possible with each change. Adding new content that 10 people on the server want more of isn't going to happen.

New HNMs, particularly if they have desireable drops, will bring cheaters back to the surface. With the current popular content, nobody notices or cares much if you cheat because it doesn't affect them. With HNMs cheating (you can argue about how common place it was, but you can't argue that it didn't ever happen) does affect other people.

[Benihana]

cosign. new world hnms would be cool. I would prefer them to spawn in a bit like di/sw though.

You could still cheat but it was more focused related when it came to claiming.

Why are you guys arguing with the no-police?

NO DAddy, nooooooooooooo!!!!!

in b4 Taruina MNK chi blast for hnm claim. w

[Dazusu]

'It's not worth the development time."

That's usually a subjective, relative and exaggerated argument based on who you ask and their desires for the game. What's worth it for one person may not be for the other.

To be fair to your argument though, I think in this case you have a point and that's part of the problem. The updates we do get are so few and far between it wouldn't make sense to implement HNM for less than 20% of the game population. However, had we more consistent updates and a bigger development team - I would hope that no one would have an issue with a bigger variance of end-game being implemented, though I fear the bitchery would still persist from the small but vocal parade on the forums.

Here's to the next 6 months consisting of rehashes of Limbus, Einherjar and Salvage.

[Reiterpallasch]

Have you guys craving for the uber challenge thought to try and do Abyssea content without all the killer buffs?


No Atma. No cruore buffs. No intentional trying for procs. No use of temps. No popping chests? Sounds pretty hardcore to me. When you enter Abyssea, you are not forced to get anything other than time. Well, what do you think Habu? Care to give it a try? Care to find 17 other ppl that want to give it a shot?
There's a huge difference between:


Intentionally gimping yourself to make easy content that anyone can complete harder.

and


Already hard content that only the best players can complete.

[Alhanelem]

That's usually a subjective, relative and exaggerated argument based on who you ask and their desires for the game.It's subjective, yes, but the only subjective view that matters is theirs. And you should know how many good ideas they've been ignoring or shooting down on the basis of development cost/time.


Already hard content that only the best players can complete.If you want "hard content" that's what they added Legion for. It's got the sidegrades and marginal rewards you say you want. So why aren't you doing it?

This stuff doesn't add up. I'm still convinced the only reason anyone wants old fashioned HNMs back is because they either
1) cheat
2) start drama over every fight, either during the spawn windows or by trying to find a way to wipe the fighting group, or
3) they enjoy watching the above drama, preferably with soda and popcorn.

If all you really want is a challenge, there are plenty of current and probably upcoming ways to be challenged. Pulling HNMs is not a challenge- it's random luck, unless you're botting.


Here's to the next 6 months consisting of rehashes of Limbus, Einherjar and Salvage. Not saying I'm any happier about this. But how would rehashes of the old days of HNM pulling be any better?

Just savor the memories and tell your kids "Bah, you kids have it easy! Back in my day, we had to wait around for 3 hours for bosses to pop. Then we argued about it, called the other group botters, argued for a little while, then tried to make the other guys die."


You assume that absolutely no one wants this content - but that's just not true. I wouldn't say absolutely no one, but it's hard enough to get people together for more common things in this game. What makes you think you could get enough people interested to bring back the sense of competition I get the impression you want?

[newmonkey]

Return of the hnms yes please come on se give people other than the vocal casual people on here content we want.

[Dazusu]

be any better?

Think you missed my point a little there. It wouldn't be any better. It's just a shit situation all around. SE are neglecting the game that made their name in MMOs and pumping resources into a game that's already failed once.

I was summing up that no matter what SE do now, it's not enough.

[Alhanelem]

Return of the hnms yes please come on se give people other than the vocal casual people on here content we want.
I'm not a "vocal casual people." As I said before I've been through almost all the HNMs in this game countless times. I was in an endgame linkshell for several years before it broke. You're under the false impression that everyone who doesn't want this is a "casual."

You don't need multi-day spawn timers, half hour spawn windows and drama to have challenging content that's not for the casual player.

[Camiie]

Return of the hnms yes please come on se give people other than the vocal casual people on here content we want.

There's plenty of content for non-casuals to do. Heck I would say the most recent content caters more toward hardcores than casuals. They just did away with the archaic timed spawn system. You still have some of what you're asking for, just not that aspect of it.

Hey trust me, I understand. While timed HNM is not one them, there are things of the past I wish still existed or were still popular. At some point you just have to accept that things change, tastes change, life goes on, the world doesn't revolve around you, and <insert whatever cliche you want here>.

[Habu]

What i don't get is all you ppl who talk about the game being on 'easy mode' now. Now you'll prolly just say my following suggestion is <insert derisive adjective here>, but so be it.

No Atma. No cruore buffs. No intentional trying for procs. No use of temps. No popping chests? Sounds pretty hardcore to me. When you enter Abyssea, you are not forced to get anything other than time. Well, what do you think Habu? Care to give it a try? Care to find 17 other ppl that want to give it a shot?

Ok I just tried this with the pops that I had on me. I 4 man'd Glavoid, Ecc Eve, Bria, Itzapop and the Iron Giant in Altepa. It was a little harder I'll give you that but I don't cherish the thought of intentionally gimping myself to make stuff harder. Next you'll tell me do fight them naked or without a weapon.


You said that there's no difference in sitting in Jeuno waiting for a shout and sitting in Aery waiting for a spawn. If there's no difference then you shouldn't have a problem sitting in Jeuno waiting for a shout. That's how the point can be turned back on you.

I was saying there's no difference in the time you spend waiting not that there's no difference between the content you do after said wait time. So once again I don't really see how this could be turned against me.


Do or don't is pretty lame as options go.

Isn't that the way with every piece of content in this game? Either you do it or you don't lol.

To the comments about Legion being the new hard content that is supposed to satisfy as real endgame, it's not. It doesn't take anytime to clear the prereq stages to get to the final chamber. The final chamber itself is hard to do with 18, although it poses no real issue for a 36 person group.

[Benihana]

lol i love u habu. why are u arguing with silly people who suggest intentionally gimping urself is making content harder? haha, those ppl are so delusional.

LETS FIGHT EVERYTHING WITH NO GEAR OR WEAPONS THEN! THE WHOLE GAME WLL BE HARD THEN. That argument is so lol. Like, gtfo lol

[Falseliberty]

HNM is a bad idea and you should feel bad. "my claiming bot err skillz was great you just suck"
The fights was never hard, just getting claim.

Those must be some thick ass nostalgia goggles u wearing.

[Habu]

I'm assuming you didn't read the first few posts that were made. I never said that the fights were hard just the thrill of actual competition between two rival shells was always something to look forward to in the day. Why is it always a go-to for those against HNM to mention botting? Not everyone who enjoyed HNM botted, just saying.

[Camiie]

Maybe they should make a new type of PVP where you can literally fight over claiming HNMs. You can fight each other directly, MPK each other, force a spike flail, etc. You can do it all to your heart's content all day long if you want to. If you want it to be a competition let's make it a competition. No holds barred! Epic struggle for HNM claiming domination!

[Alhanelem]

just the thrill of actual competition between two rival shells was always something to look forward to in the day.There was never any thrill in this. It was only ever thrilling for the people who botted/cheated/won on a regular basis. People such as yourselves are in it for the drama. The rest of us were in it for the fight, and for the drops- if an instanced/popped/etc battle dropped the same things, nearly all of us would likely have done that in a heartbeat.

Yes, there's some nostalgia. But that doesn't mean that it was ever a good content design.

The problem with the line of thinking here is the HNMs have to drop upgrades or people won't go out to do them, at least not in enough volume to create the competition you're craving.

If it's competition you're craving, why don't you more actively participate in features that wre *designed* for competition, e.g. Conflict, Pankration, etc.? Preemptive answer: Because they don't have real rewards.

Even better, why not play an actual competitively designed game, like DotA/LoL/HoN, <insert FPS here> etc?

The fights were fun and rewarding. That's why most of us did them. Most people didn't find the fun in the camping or random nature of it. The "competition" is all about the drama when the real end result has nothing to do with anybody's skill, but a random event (ignoring the possible cheating factor).
If you went to HNMs just to "beat" other people to them, then you were part of the reason a lot of people hated going to them.

[Habu]

Maybe they should make a new type of PVP where you can literally fight over claiming HNMs. You can fight each other directly, MPK each other, force a spike flail, etc. You can do it all to your heart's content all day long if you want to. If you want it to be a competition let's make it a competition. No holds barred! Epic struggle for HNM claiming domination!

Coming from the person who earlier stated they didn't like Aery Wars this post doesn't really make sense. Understand that it was sarcasm but it's funny that I'm the one being blamed for trolling.


There was never any thrill in this. It was only ever thrilling for the people who botted/cheated/won on a regular basis. People such as yourselves are in it for the drama. The rest of us were in it for the fight, and for the drops- if an instanced/popped/etc battle dropped the same things, nearly all of us would likely have done that in a heartbeat.

Yes let's turn a mob that pops generally every 4-6 days into something you must first get 99KS to pop the NQ version. Then hope that the NQ will drop an item that can pop the HQ, which is horrid. Then once you get that HQ pop you have to hope the NM drops the item you were actually after, if not repeat the cycle. How could this possibly be better than knowing when the HQ will pop? Maybe you didn't get any thrill claiming an HNM in days of olde and that's you, I'm just stating how others and myself feel about the issue.


If it's competition you're craving, why don't you more actively participate in features that wre *designed* for competition, e.g. Conflict, Pankration, etc.? Preemptive answer: Because they don't have real rewards.

I don't like the PvP the way it is setup in FFXI hence why I don't do it.


Even better, why not play an actual competitively designed game, like DotA/LoL/HoN, <insert FPS here> etc?

I'm sorry I thought we were on a FFXI forum? So instead of trying to get something implemented for the people who would be in favor of HNMs I should just go play another game? Makes sense.


The fights were fun and rewarding. That's why most of us did them. Most people didn't find the fun in the camping or random nature of it. The "competition" is all about the drama when the real end result has nothing to do with anybody's skill, but a random event (ignoring the possible cheating factor).
If you went to HNMs just to "beat" other people to them, then you were part of the reason a lot of people hated going to them.

Oh? I'm getting the reason people didn't want to go to them were the fact that you had to sit there for 3 hours MAX to try and claim a NM but now it's turned into the people not claiming getting their feelings hurt? This isn't the third grade, not everyone is a winner, that's life.

[Alhanelem]

Yes let's turn a mob that pops generally every 4-6 days into something you must first get 99KS to pop the NQ version. Then hope that the NQ will drop an item that can pop the HQ, which is horrid. Then once you get that HQ pop you have to hope the NM drops the item you were actually after, if not repeat the cycle. How could this possibly be better than knowing when the HQ will pop?You didn't know when the HQ would pop. It was random. Contrary to popular belief there was no set maximum time for the HQ pop; not that any of this has anything to do with they should have just made the BC drop everything instead. Between an alliance of people, you were able to do the KSNM more often than you could have done the HNM (speaking from before it was changed to the force pop system)


I don't like the PvP the way it is setup in FFXI hence why I don't do it.I don't like the HNM the way it is setup in FFXI hence why I don't do it (anymore). It's also why the system for certain NMs was changed.


I'm sorry I thought we were on a FFXI forum? So instead of trying to get something implemented for the people who would be in favor of HNMs I should just go play another game? Makes sense.You implied you cared more about competition than you did fighting the monster. So I simply proposed better ways to enjoy competition- by playing a game or doing an activity that's actually competitive. You could get the same thrill out of winning a lottery ticket or other gambling activity. Why not do something like that instead?


Oh? I'm getting the reason people didn't want to go to them were the fact that you had to sit there for 3 hours MAXYou make it sound like 3 hours isn't a long time. It IS a long time, it's a stupidly long time to wait when there are lots of other things you could do in the game in that amount of time. 3 hours of doing nothing is not fun, and it's even less fun when you did it for nothing.


This isn't the third grade, not everyone is a winner, that's life. Proof of your lack of maturity. Nobody said everyone had to be a winner. But I'd rather lose to the NM than lose to a claim bot. Challenging fights, not seeing who can beat the random number generator, should be the source of the thrills. Your idea of a thrill is pretty shallow- it's reaching pretty far if this is the only thing that could give you thrill in the game. Proof further that you're a creator of drama- that's the real reason you want this.

You might be erroneously gathering from this that my groups never won pulls. We did- quite often in fact. That doesn't make the 3 hours of camping spawn windows somehow fun. They could have cut the time in half when they first created it and it wouldn't have been so bad I strongly doubt anyone would have said "You know, 15 minute windows are too short, can we make them longer, like 30 minutes?" The spawn windows should have been shorter. Same thrills, less wasted time, both for the winners and the losers. it's the single thing I hated most about early HNMs. It never really got much better either, as later HNMs didn't have set spawn windows but just had one big one when they were due. That ended up being an even bigger colossal waste of time because you had to be paying attention for however long it took.

Oh yeah, then there's the people who claim it but spend 7 hours trying to kill it when your group could have killed it in less than 1. You think they're going to wipe but they don't, and so your LS just sits there the whole time just in case they wipe. wasting more time (only to have Tiamat drop nothing but a single crystal)

Waiting, waiting, and more waiting. this is the biggest reason why the HNM system sucked. Don't get the wrong idea. Our LS and most of the LSes present were (usually) good sports when it came to the claim. It just baffles me how anyone could find the hours and hours of waiting "fun."

Is that little thrill spike when the NM pops really worth hours and hours of waiting? To me, and to most people, the answer is a resounding 'no.'

[Benihana]

You didn't know when the HQ would pop. It was random. Contrary to popular belief there was no set maximum time for the HQ pop; not that any of this has anything to do with they should have just made the BC drop everything instead. Between an alliance of people, you were able to do the KSNM more often than you could have done the HNM (speaking from before it was changed to the force pop system)

I don't like the HNM the way it is setup in FFXI hence why I don't do it (anymore). It's also why the system for certain NMs was changed.

You implied you cared more about competition than you did fighting the monster. So I simply proposed better ways to enjoy competition- by playing a game or doing an activity that's actually competitive. You could get the same thrill out of winning a lottery ticket or other gambling activity. Why not do something like that instead?

You make it sound like 3 hours isn't a long time. It IS a long time, it's a stupidly long time to wait when there are lots of other things you could do in the game in that amount of time. 3 hours of doing nothing is not fun, and it's even less fun when you did it for nothing.

Proof of your lack of maturity. Nobody said everyone had to be a winner. But I'd rather lose to the NM than lose to a claim bot. Challenging fights, not seeing who can beat the random number generator, should be the source of the thrills. Your idea of a thrill is pretty shallow- it's reaching pretty far if this is the only thing that could give you thrill in the game. Proof further that you're a creator of drama- that's the real reason you want this.

You might be erroneously gathering from this that my groups never won pulls. We did- quite often in fact. That doesn't make the 3 hours of camping spawn windows somehow fun. They could have cut the time in half when they first created it and it wouldn't have been so bad I strongly doubt anyone would have said "You know, 15 minute windows are too short, can we make them longer, like 30 minutes?" The spawn windows should have been shorter. Same thrills, less wasted time, both for the winners and the losers. it's the single thing I hated most about early HNMs. It never really got much better either, as later HNMs didn't have set spawn windows but just had one big one when they were due. That ended up being an even bigger colossal waste of time because you had to be paying attention for however long it took.

Oh yeah, then there's the people who claim it but spend 7 hours trying to kill it when your group could have killed it in less than 1. You think they're going to wipe but they don't, and so your LS just sits there the whole time just in case they wipe. wasting more time (only to have Tiamat drop nothing but a single crystal)

Waiting, waiting, and more waiting. this is the biggest reason why the HNM system sucked. Don't get the wrong idea. Our LS and most of the LSes present were (usually) good sports when it came to the claim. It just baffles me how anyone could find the hours and hours of waiting "fun."

Is that little thrill spike when the NM pops really worth hours and hours of waiting? To me, and to most people, the answer is a resounding 'no.'


I SMELL BACON!

iN B4 NO POLICE.

on a serious note, tldr, you don't speak for everyone.

[Habu]

You didn't know when the HQ would pop. It was random. Contrary to popular belief there was no set maximum time for the HQ pop

Did you not read the part where I said "generally 4-7 days for a HQ" meaning that it could go longer than that but a decent amount of time it spawned between the 4th-7th day after last HQ spawn. Yes it can go up to to 8-9-10 but it was very unlikely to go that far and even more unlikely to past that.


I don't like the HNM the way it is setup in FFXI hence why I don't do it (anymore). It's also why the system for certain NMs was changed.

It was changed after the numerous years of people complaining they couldn't claim. In roughly the year before it was changed to force pop there was barely anyone even camping kings anymore so I don't see why the system was changed to this terrible one.


You implied you cared more about competition than you did fighting the monster. So I simply proposed better ways to enjoy competition- by playing a game or doing an activity that's actually competitive. You could get the same thrill out of winning a lottery ticket or other gambling activity. Why not do something like that instead?

Really? Why is this even being mentioned like I need a thrillseekers anonymous or something.


You make it sound like 3 hours isn't a long time. It IS a long time, it's a stupidly long time to wait when there are lots of other things you could do in the game in that amount of time. 3 hours of doing nothing is not fun, and it's even less fun when you did it for nothing.

No one is forcing you to do the content, if you actually do what you say then you wont even do them. So what's the problem with people who actually WANT to do them? If someone wanted to revamp Ballista and PvP I wouldn't go in telling them they're stupid, PvP is dumb, and they are wasting their time. I would let them do what they enjoy and go about my merry way.


Proof of your lack of maturity. Nobody said everyone had to be a winner. But I'd rather lose to the NM than lose to a claim bot. Challenging fights, not seeing who can beat the random number generator, should be the source of the thrills. Your idea of a thrill is pretty shallow- it's reaching pretty far if this is the only thing that could give you thrill in the game. Proof further that you're a creator of drama- that's the real reason you want this.

Lack of maturity or being a realist? Name one challenging fight in the game atm? You continue to go on and on about this "challenging content" but you never provide any example. Beating the random number generator eh? I suppose you don't like the new Nyzul system either huh?


It never really got much better either, as later HNMs didn't have set spawn windows but just had one big one when they were due. That ended up being an even bigger colossal waste of time because you had to be paying attention for however long it took.

I'm assuming you're talking about DI/SW? DI has moments where the mob is in CB where you get to afk for a decent amount of time. SW was full window but wouldn't spawn in the previous zone, which still isn't THAT bad.


Oh yeah, then there's the people who claim it but spend 7 hours trying to kill it when your group could have killed it in less than 1. You think they're going to wipe but they don't, and so your LS just sits there the whole time just in case they wipe. wasting more time (only to have Tiamat drop nothing but a single crystal)

Sit a ToD mule there and leave. If you're LS wasted 7 hours watching a group fight Tiamat, I highly doubt "wasting" 3 hours sitting at a Behe/Faf/Aspid camp hurt you that much.


Waiting, waiting, and more waiting. this is the biggest reason why the HNM system sucked. Don't get the wrong idea. Our LS and most of the LSes present were (usually) good sports when it came to the claim. It just baffles me how anyone could find the hours and hours of waiting "fun."

See above point.


Is that little thrill spike when the NM pops really worth hours and hours of waiting? To me, and to most people, the answer is a resounding 'no.'

To me and most people the answer is a resounding 'yes'

[Kysaiana]

I won't argue the logic in camping 24hr+ spawn NMs, or the so-called "thrill" in doing so. The subject has been beaten to death. I also won't say "NO! DON'T ADD MORE!" because either way, it doesn't affect me as I doubt I'd care enough to join a shell that would camp them. SE did say some time ago that they planned on adding the rest of the elemental wyrms, so I suppose there's that to look forward to for the people that clamor over HNMs. Some people just love drama and that's pretty much all camping HNMs was back in the day.

[Alhanelem]

To me and most people the answer is a resounding 'yes' You're kidding yourself if you think a majority of players, most whom never even tried to fight HNMs, want the old HNM system to return, you're crazier than I thought.

Out of the total population of the game, people who fought HNMs are a minority. This is a fact, as players at endgame of any sort in an MMO is in a minority (Less than 10% of people who play WoW reach level 10, much less the maximum level in one class, much less more than one- FFXI's statistics are probably better than this but not drastically- I can't seem to find last year's census but this year's should be coming soon) Further, people who fought HNMs *and* liked the whole competition thing and the 3 hour spawn windows and multi-day respawns is an even smaller minority.


Sit a ToD mule there and leave. If you're LS wasted 7 hours watching a group fight Tiamat, I highly doubt "wasting" 3 hours sitting at a Behe/Faf/Aspid camp hurt you that much.This isn't much of a point. 3 hours is a long time, so is 7. I certainly don't want a repeat of that tiamat experience ever again. A ToD mule only helped for certain NMs. For the others, maybe you have no job and no life and don't see 3 hours as very much time. A lot of other people can't even play for 3 hours in a day. A lot more than those who can, in fact. Again, and this is not meant in an offensive context: Your type of player is a minority.[/QUOTE]Name one challenging fight in the game atm?[/QUOTE]There are plenty of them, unless you can tell me you run up to any random fight and beat it first time every time. I don't know anybody that can claim that. Every fight becomes easier once you learn it. Regardless, this is an irrelevant point as the answer is subjective and doesn't really have anything to do with the merits or lack thereof of HNMs. Also, I'll quote myself here:

Challenging fights, not seeing who can beat the random number generator, should be the source of the thrills. I didn't name any specific fight as being challenging- I stated what *should be* what gives thrills in the game. It's really time to move on if the *only* source of excitement or thrill in the game is beating someone else to the claim of a monster.

[Habu]

You're kidding yourself if you think a majority of players, most whom never even tried to fight HNMs, want the old HNM system to return, you're crazier than I thought.

Look at the last line of your previous post, now back to mine, now back to yours, now back to mine. It was a joke.


People who fought HNMs are a minority. This is a fact, as players at endgame of any sort in any MMO is in a minority (Less than 10% of people who play WoW reach level 10, much less the maximum level in one class, much less more than one) Further, people who fought HNMs *and* liked the whole competition thing and the 3 hour spawn windows and multi-day respawns is an even smaller minority.

People who did HNMs are in the minority at this point in time yes, but whose to say new HNMs wouldn't convince a few more subscriptions to come back. Reaching level 10 in WoW takes less than 4 hours, I seriously doubt your facts unless you can prove otherwise.

[Habu]

Saying I have no life isn't supposed to be offensive? Mmk please continue with personal attacks though it's funny. Rather ye could you just stop? You've completely derailed this thread to the point where no dev would possibly ever want to read through. This was just a suggest that I and a few others had.

[Alhanelem]

We're still talking about the suggestion about bringing back HNM content- so no, the topic isn't derailed.


People who did HNMs are in the minority at this point in time yes, but whose to say new HNMs wouldn't convince a few more subscriptions to come back.It might bring back a few subscriptions (I could probably count them on my fingers and toes) but it wouldn't be worth the development cost.


Saying I have no life isn't supposed to be offensive? Mmk please continue with personal attacks though it's funny.Yes, it wasn't meant to be offensive. Only meant to be a fact, because it is. People who have all day to play and don't consider 3 hours a long time to play are a minority. If you don't like "no life," then feel free imagine some other less offensive synonym in its place. The point was simple: You might not consider 3 hours a long time to camp an NM, but other people do. You can't argue that this was a completely sound design that needed no adjustments or changes.


It was changed after the numerous years of people complaining they couldn't claim.No, it was changed after the numerous years of keeping a badly designed system in the game. By the time it was changed, most of the competition for these NMs was already dead.


Reaching level 10 in WoW takes less than 4 hours, I seriously doubt your facts unless you can prove otherwise.It doesn't usually take 4 hours to decide whether you like a game or not. This shouldn't even strike you as suprising, much less unbelieveable.

Anyway, here's the article:
http://kotaku.com/5469238/most-new-world-of-warcraft-players-dont-go-past-level-10

The numbers are probably a bit higher now than when this was written, simply because WoW went "free to play up to level 20"- so now it's "most new people who play wow don't make it past level 20."
(I will accept that I made an error, and it's 70% of people don't make past level 10, not 90%.)

Why add even more content that only a tiny fraction of all players will ever enjoy? We already have legion which barely anybody does, and this was within days of its release.

[Habu]

It might bring back a few subscriptions (I could probably count them on my fingers and toes) but it wouldn't be worth the development cost.

Development cost? You mean reskining a mob that is currently in game (hopefully an Ig-Alima or Botolus Rex) and taking existing gear ideas, tying the two together and putting them in a zone? Not hard.


Yes, it wasn't meant to be offensive. Only meant to be a fact, because it is. People who have all day to play and don't consider 3 hours a long time to play are a minority. If you don't like "no life," then feel free imagine some other less offensive synonym in its place.

There is no other way than to take "no-life" being offensive. I'm not personally attacking you and I'd appreciate if you did the same.


No, it was changed after the numerous years of keeping a badly designed system in the game. By the time it was changed, most of the competition for these NMs was already dead.

Subjective


It doesn't usually take 4 hours to decide whether you like a game or not. This shouldn't even strike you as suprising, much less unbelieveable.Anyway, here's the article:
http://kotaku.com/5469238/most-new-world-of-warcraft-players-dont-go-past-level-10. The numbers are probably a bit higher now than when this was written, simply because WoW went "free to play up to level 20"- so now it's "most new people who play wow don't make it past level 20."
(I will accept that I made an error, and it's 70% of people don't make past level 10, not 90%.)

Comparing people who have just purchased a new game and are testing how the like it =/= a player base who have played for years and wish something to be reimplemented. Regardless of the % of the player base wanting said reimplementation.


Why add even more content that only a tiny fraction of all players will ever enjoy? We already have legion which barely anybody does, and this was within days of its release.

You're not going to please anyone, with your logic why should SE ever release any new content? Not everyone is going to enjoy it anyways, right? Legion barely lasted for people who couldn't beat it. For people who can clear it, it's become quiet the money-maker.

[Alhanelem]

Development cost? You mean reskining a mob that is currently in game (hopefully an Ig-Alima or Botolus Rex) and taking existing gear ideas, tying the two together and putting them in a zone? Not hard.Then we'll call up SE, tell them to hire you, and leave you in sole charge of developing this new HNM content. Let me know when it's finished- I expect it on Tanaka's desk by friday, since you're clearly a content development expert.


SubjectiveNot subjective, a fact. Prior to this change, you could go to many of the HNMs and find them up and wandering around. Hard to compete against nobody now, isn't it?


Comparing people who have just purchased a new game and are testing how the like it =/= a player base who have played for years and wish something to be reimplemented. Regardless of the % of the player base wanting said reimplementation.You're right, they're not equal. One group is much larger than the other, three guesses which. Even among those who make it past a certain level, not all of them get to or participate in endgame.


You're not going to please anyone, with your logic why should SE ever release any new content?Nobody said they shouldn't release any new content- but the content they should release should be pleasureable to as many people as reasonably possible. Otherwise, they end up losing customers.


Legion barely lasted for people who couldn't beat it. For people who can clear it, it's become quiet the money-maker. I don't know one person who's made money off of legion. It isn't even a matter of who can beat it, it's a matter of who is interested in it. From the beginning, very few people even wanted a part of it for two three reasons:
1) it's large group content being added at a time where large groups are becoming increasingly rare
2) very few of the drops were considered attractive to many, and at least a few of the drops that are, are also available from another event.
3)If many people couldn't beat it, then that to me makes it challenging content. Of course, I'm sure you beat it trio blindfolded with your limbs bound together, since you apparently feel there are no challenging fights in the game.

[Camiie]

Coming from the person who earlier stated they didn't like Aery Wars this post doesn't really make sense. Understand that it was sarcasm but it's funny that I'm the one being blamed for trolling.

It seemed like it'd be the ultimate thrill for you while setting old school HNM off in the PVP world away from the rest of us.

[Mittenz]

To the person who stated most WoW players dont make it past Lv. 10 and also that content shouldnt be made for a minority I do ask then why blizzard makes content up to the current cap shouldnt they just be making more and more stuff for 1-10 ? Personally I dont see that being a very successful model for them =P

Joking aside I loved HNM's and challenging fights but at this point SE seems to think squeezing every last bit of money from the player base without putting in any time or funds to development is the way to go so it probably wont be happening.

Looking at this road map I see something that could have been put in 1 update being spread across a year so unless they saved half the roadmap for vanafest I am not going to hope for anything. Rather be suprised and happy over disappointed and angry.

[Habu]

Then we'll call up SE, tell them to hire you, and leave you in sole charge of developing this new HNM content. Let me know when it's finished- I expect it on Tanaka's desk by friday, since you're clearly a content development expert.

Trolling/derail


Not subjective, a fact. Prior to this change, you could go to many of the HNMs and find them up and wandering around. Hard to compete against nobody now, isn't it?


If they're up and no one is killing them then why change the system, anyone can come kill them and get drops.


You're right, they're not equal. One group is much larger than the other, three guesses which. Even among those who make it past a certain level, not all of them get to or participate in endgame.

Comparing apples to oranges is what I was getting at, you're missing the point. New players =/= people wanting new content. This isn't hard.


I don't know one person who's made money off of legion. It isn't even a matter of who can beat it, it's a matter of who is interested in it. From the beginning, very few people even wanted a part of it for two three reasons:
1) it's large group content being added at a time where large groups are becoming increasingly rare
2) very few of the drops were considered attractive to many, and at least a few of the drops that are, are also available from another event.
3)If many people couldn't beat it, then that to me makes it challenging content. Of course, I'm sure you beat it trio blindfolded with your limbs bound together, since you apparently feel there are no challenging fights in the game.

I've sold 2 pair of Mustela Gloves for 5M a piece, one for 3M. Along with that I've sold a pair of Wrathwing Nails for 10M. There now you know someone profiting from Legion. Making a shout group for Legion isn't hard just have a few good core members and you can win. I can't help that the people I do events with are good and we can clear content easily. Punish me more for "not having a life". This is a circular argument meaning it wont end. I have my set of ideas and you have yours, this goes to anyone else who has ideas regarding this issue. This was merely an idea for devs that some minority in the game would look to see, if you don't like them don't do them IF they are released. End the pointless bickering right now, don't respond back about this and I wont either, it's as simple as that.

[Habu]

It seemed like it'd be the ultimate thrill for you while setting old school HNM off in the PVP world away from the rest of us.

I would enjoy the mass slaughter of people who outclaimed me on a HNM not going to lie lol

[Alhanelem]

Joking aside I loved HNM's and challenging fights but at this point SE seems to think squeezing every last bit of money from the player base without putting in any time or funds to development is the way to go so it probably wont be happening. Don't get me wrong, i love challenging fights, just not the archaic "must play 24/7 to enjoy" system of content. You can make something that is challenging and thrilling without slapping arbitrary wait times on it.


Trolling/derailDon't make comments on things you know nothing about and you won't get "trolled/derailed."


If they're up and no one is killing them then why change the system, anyone can come kill them and get drops. But that wouldn't be thrilling! [/sarcasm]. You said you wanted the thrill of the claim. If there's no one to win a claim against, then the system's not doing it's job, is it?

[Habu]

Don't make comments on things you know nothing about and you won't get "trolled/derailed."

Saying that reskining an ALREADY EXSISTING MOB, and giving it drops that ALREADY HAVE BEEN THOUGHT OF, and putting it in zones that ALREADY EXSIST isn't hard to do should be obvious or are you just that dense?


But that wouldn't be thrilling! [/sarcasm]. You said you wanted the thrill of the claim. If there's no one to win a claim against, then the system's not doing it's job, is it?

How is what your saying making any sense? At first it was people hated getting out claimed by a bot, then it was no one is ever there. If no one was there to camp them then why waste 99KS when you could just go out and kill the mobs? You're not even making sense anymore.

[Alhanelem]

Saying that reskining an ALREADY EXSISTING MOB, and giving it drops that ALREADY HAVE BEEN THOUGHT OF, and putting it in zones that ALREADY EXSIST isn't hard to do should be obvious or are you just that dense?like i said, if it's so easy, then show us how it's done. There's a lot more to making monsters than slapping a skin on a model. It's not just "slap a skin on a model and plop it in a zone."


How is what your saying making any sense? At first it was people hated getting out claimed by a bot, then it was no one is ever there. If no one was there to camp them then why waste 99KS when you could just go out and kill the mobs? You're not even making sense anymore. That would mean im making about as much sense as you are. So maybe this is a good spot to end things.

[Habu]

Tried ending it earlier but you didn't want to drop it then.

[SNK]

This has to be one of the best troll threads I've seen in awhile.

[saevel]

This has to be one of the best troll threads I've seen in awhile.

Yeah surprised it hasn't made it to OF Nuked III yet. OP was obviously trying to rile people up and get street cred out of it, doesn't seem to of worked though.

[Randwolf]

Never said that, but there should be something that caters to those who still take the game a little more seriously than VW and making more Emps. Legion has sufficed for that until you beat final chamber, which is the only chamber that requires any real effort.

"Seriously" = Sitting Around Forever and then either Pure Luck or Outright Hacks to claim the mob.

In any way that the game is broken today, the HNM system was broken far worse. (after several years of first hand HNM experience)

p.s. - My shell made lots of claims. I personally did many times with Dia, Provoke, or even a Dart. So, your comment about people not making claims and complaining is a poor generalization

[xiozen]

Never said that, but there should be something that caters to those who still take the game a little more seriously than VW and making more Emps. Legion has sufficed for that until you beat final chamber, which is the only chamber that requires any real effort.

So based on this comment I can assume you've already beaten the final chamber of Legion?

If so, congratulations!!! But on point, sad to say, I for one do NOT miss camping HNMs in the game... not that there aren't some folks within the worlds of FFXI that actually considered that "fun"... so if SE reads this thread... please disregard. =/

[Dazusu]

like i said, if it's so easy, then show us how it's done.

1/10.

You can do better than that.

[Mirabelle]

I'm not sure I understand this line of reasoning. HNM's in the old days were hard then got easier as everyone figured out the strategies and the only hard part was getting claim. To say that Legion is now easy because your group has the strategy down now is no different.

Asking for the game to be made harder for the small fraction of uber gamers is silly, when the population was always largely made up of the average.

SE gave you Nyzul 2.0 (and everyone decided to use cheats to beat it) and gave you Legion (and everyone abuses the crap out of PD/Wild Card to beat it).

You want difficulty, then try to beat Legion without SMN's. Beat Nyzul without cheats. Play the game on a console without all your windower add ons. You'll find it plenty challenging. Every uber player I've heard of maxes out his gear, windower add ons and then complains that its too easy. Such a pile of hypocrisy.

[cidbahamut]

You could also try playing the game while having someone smash you in the face with a brick, but I don't see how that would improve the experience either.

[saevel]

I'm not sure I understand this line of reasoning. HNM's in the old days were hard then got easier as everyone figured out the strategies and the only hard part was getting claim. To say that Legion is now easy because your group has the strategy down now is no different.

Asking for the game to be made harder for the small fraction of uber gamers is silly, when the population was always largely made up of the average.

SE gave you Nyzul 2.0 (and everyone decided to use cheats to beat it) and gave you Legion (and everyone abuses the crap out of PD/Wild Card to beat it).

You want difficulty, then try to beat Legion without SMN's. Beat Nyzul without cheats. Play the game on a console without all your windower add ons. You'll find it plenty challenging. Every uber player I've heard of maxes out his gear, windower add ons and then complains that its too easy. Such a pile of hypocrisy.

Their confusing difficulty with exclusivity. They don't want the game "difficult", its a game, it's frustrating when you run into an artificial brick wall. The mechanics of FFXI do not leave much room for creative strategies, it always boils down to kill it before it can kill you. Thus any strategy is about doing maximum damage, finding a way to survive long enough to kill something or some combination of the two. Now exclusivity is a different beast, it means barriers to access and limits on who can acquire gear. Abyssea gear is good, it's really really good stat wise. What makes these people angry about it is that anyone can acquire it, thus the good gear is available to everyone without any barriers to access.

HNMs on the other hand only had a few items that could be considered "good". There was a huge barrier to access in that the monster only appeared once per day with it's HQ cousin appearing twice per week in place of the regular one. Only one group on the entire server could get access to this NM at a time. Assuming the NQ only appeared five times per week, we got ~260 appearances, with any particular gear having a 10~15% drop rate that is only 26~39 of a particular item being created per year for the entire server. A very small portion of the games population can reasonably expect to acquire those items and thus we got the super exclusivity of HNM shells. You spend a year or two building up points / favors to get the rights to lot on some extremely rare item.

[Sparthos]

I'm not sure I understand this line of reasoning. HNM's in the old days were hard then got easier as everyone figured out the strategies and the only hard part was getting claim. To say that Legion is now easy because your group has the strategy down now is no different.

Asking for the game to be made harder for the small fraction of uber gamers is silly, when the population was always largely made up of the average.

SE gave you Nyzul 2.0 (and everyone decided to use cheats to beat it) and gave you Legion (and everyone abuses the crap out of PD/Wild Card to beat it).

You want difficulty, then try to beat Legion without SMN's. Beat Nyzul without cheats. Play the game on a console without all your windower add ons. You'll find it plenty challenging. Every uber player I've heard of maxes out his gear, windower add ons and then complains that its too easy. Such a pile of hypocrisy.

'If you want Abyssea to be hard, use no Atmas!!'

First off Legion without SMNs basically amounts to being repeatedly oneshot by special attacks that do more damage than you have HP. Even if you perfectly gearswap MDT/PDT gear, you're still going to bite it from TP spam and with 30mins on the clock deaths mean losses. Your healers wont save you, rotating Scherzo wont save you and expecting every TP attack to be stunned (if it even can) is bordering on impossible.

This is not difficulty, it's an artificial sense of challenge designed by a dev team unconcerned with 'balance', though they enjoy the word far more than any mortals should. The same strategy of mindlessly zerg or be utterly and completely destroyed with no chance of recovery has become the mainstream in XI with everything from ADL, Diabolos, Voidwatch, Provenence then to Legion and it still adds not one iota of difficulty to the content.

I argue content like Pantokrator, Apademak, Raja, Rani and Shinryu without brews at 90 were harder than anything offered since Voidwatch took the wheel and all of these allowed you to use atmas.

To summarize: Legion involves a bunch of mobs with AOE attacks designed to vaporize anyone in range not using an Aegis. There is no skill, effort or tricks to avoid these attacks other than a mindless zerg with 36 or utilizing Alexander/Embravas to beat the mobs before they beat you into a bloody pulp.

Nyzul also involves so much luck that your 'skill' means nothing if the random number generator says you're not getting to 100. Couple that with the lamp floor lag to reinput combinations and the difficulty becomes nothing about personal skills and more about how often the computer decides to not screw you.

[Hercule]

I'm not sure I understand this line of reasoning. HNM's in the old days were hard then got easier as everyone figured out the strategies and the only hard part was getting claim. To say that Legion is now easy because your group has the strategy down now is no different.

Asking for the game to be made harder for the small fraction of uber gamers is silly, when the population was always largely made up of the average.

SE gave you Nyzul 2.0 (and everyone decided to use cheats to beat it) and gave you Legion (and everyone abuses the crap out of PD/Wild Card to beat it).

You want difficulty, then try to beat Legion without SMN's. Beat Nyzul without cheats. Play the game on a console without all your windower add ons. You'll find it plenty challenging. Every uber player I've heard of maxes out his gear, windower add ons and then complains that its too easy. Such a pile of hypocrisy.

Its not really about how NM are hard to beat, its more about HNMLS war for me,
I personally miss this (incluing drama between rival LS, and provocations)

FFXI without any HNMLS war is sad,
It's like, Naruto Shippuden without Akatsuki.

[FrankReynolds]

You could also try playing the game while having someone smash you in the face with a brick, but I don't see how that would improve the experience either.

Well... it would probably feel slightly better than waiting for an HNM to spawn.

Special thanks to the OP for writing something so stupid that I could agree with Analheem on every point. You are gifted my friend.

[Habu]

"Seriously" = Sitting Around Forever and then either Pure Luck or Outright Hacks to claim the mob.

Pure luck eh? You mean like opening a VW chest 150 before getting the drop you want? Outright hacks? ftfy


SE gave you Nyzul 2.0 (and everyone decided to use cheats to beat it) and gave you Legion (and everyone abuses the crap out of PD/Wild Card to beat it). You want difficulty, then try to beat Legion without SMN's. Beat Nyzul without cheats. Play the game on a console without all your windower add ons. You'll find it plenty challenging. Every uber player I've heard of maxes out his gear, windower add ons and then complains that its too easy. Such a pile of hypocrisy.

Stop using hacks? I love how you can infer that I use 3rd party tools just because I can beat Nyzul. Ask one of my buyers if I'm sliding through walls or running around @ 800% flee. Do Legion without PD mmk, I'm going to guess you've never stepped foot into Legion. PD is vital in final chamber, let me know when you do it and we can talk strats.


Their confusing difficulty with exclusivity. They don't want the game "difficult", its a game, it's frustrating when you run into an artificial brick wall. The mechanics of FFXI do not leave much room for creative strategies, it always boils down to kill it before it can kill you. Thus any strategy is about doing maximum damage, finding a way to survive long enough to kill something or some combination of the two. Now exclusivity is a different beast, it means barriers to access and limits on who can acquire gear. Abyssea gear is good, it's really really good stat wise. What makes these people angry about it is that anyone can acquire it, thus the good gear is available to everyone without any barriers to access.

HNMs on the other hand only had a few items that could be considered "good". There was a huge barrier to access in that the monster only appeared once per day with it's HQ cousin appearing twice per week in place of the regular one. Only one group on the entire server could get access to this NM at a time. Assuming the NQ only appeared five times per week, we got ~260 appearances, with any particular gear having a 10~15% drop rate that is only 26~39 of a particular item being created per year for the entire server. A very small portion of the games population can reasonably expect to acquire those items and thus we got the super exclusivity of HNM shells. You spend a year or two building up points / favors to get the rights to lot on some extremely rare item.

Best post in the thread.


Well... it would probably feel slightly better than waiting for an HNM to spawn.

Special thanks to the OP for writing something so stupid that I could agree with Analheem on every point. You are gifted my friend.

You're one emp is telling me this thread went right over your head.

[FrankReynolds]

You're one relic is telling me this thread went right over your head.

When did relics start dropping from HNMS??!!??? Crap! and I wasted all my DKP on E-body, Dalmatica and gil etc... oh well...

BTW, how many relics does your profile show? DO those make you claim NMs better?

[Habu]

Sorry I miss read that. You only have one EMP. Meaning you're casual, you probably never touched an HNM in your life which means you have no ties to them. You wouldn't understand.

[FrankReynolds]

Sorry I miss read that. You only have one EMP. Meaning you're casual, you probably never touched an HNM in your life which means you have no ties to them. You wouldn't understand.

I understand perfectly. You wanted something that most people don't want and your sad in the pants because the people who don't want it have extremely sound reasoning, while you on the other hand do not.

[Habu]

No you're missing the point of this thread, I understand why people don't want HNMs. I came here to post why ~>a few others and myself<~ wanted them back. Nice logic though, "if you don't agree with us you're dumb herher"

[detlef]

It's not enough to succeed. Others must fail.

The thrill of HNM is as much about defeating other LS as it is about rare shinies. It's not enough to kill the NM or get the drop, the best part is preventing others from doing the same.

[Winrie]

Alhanelem did you ever sit and think for one second that legion isnt up everyone's alley or the interest isnt there? or perhaps some of us old timer HNM campers like competition, and we like to earn our food. There is nothing wrong with having content that suits the casual gamer while also satisfying the people who wish to something.. more to do with our time. Nowadays most content that we still do somehow, Empyrean weapons, older content, force pop HNM kings ect, are quick fights, very easy, soloable mostly. Some of us, would like some bang for our buck and some entertainment on a game we pay for faithfully still. lol@5min fights on old time epic fights. There is nothing wrong with a lvl 99 skill based HNM set to come out to appease us who actually wish to do it, especially not an issue if the gear doesnt replace everything as top caliber crap.

Your argument is completely 100% opinionated, All i really am getting from it, is youre a trend follower, you follow whats popular, if HNM becomes popular, you might have to work for something again, amirite?

[Zerich]

"Trolls and the future of trolling the FFXI forums" - written by Habu

[Habu]

Again if I was trolling I would be throwing out more personal attacks, more baiting and not taking this as seirously. HNM is something I like doing and would like seeing it reimplemented. Just because the masses ON THE SITE don't like it doesn't mean it's not a good idea for those who wish their return.

[Randwolf]

Pure luck eh? You mean like opening a VW chest 150 before getting the drop you want? Outright hacks? ftfy

The luck you speak of concerns drops, not claims. And, drops were horrible on HNM's, also. Ask the people who waited for long periods without having a Ridill drop. So, HNM's were a double dose of luck. Or, a dose of hacking and luck. If you are trying to say HNMLS's didn't hack, you need to know that Denial is not a river.

You, and a small minority, live in a time that a large majority, including those who lived it, never want to return to.

[Randwolf]

Again if I was trolling I would be throwing out more personal attacks, more baiting and not taking this as seirously. HNM is something I like doing and would like seeing it reimplemented. Just because the masses ON THE SITE don't like it doesn't mean it's not a good idea for those who wish their return.

The problem is, what will be your response if S/E says that the HNM drops can be gotten in other ways? If you're okay with that, then fine. If not, then bringing them back does involve everyone. Not just those who want them.

[Habu]

The luck you speak of concerns drops, not claims. And, drops were horrible on HNM's, also. Ask the people who waited for long periods without having a Ridill drop. So, HNM's were a double dose of luck. Or, a dose of hacking and luck. If you are trying to say HNMLS's didn't hack, you need to know that Denial is not a river.

You, and a small minority, live in a time that a large majority, including those who lived it, never want to return to.

Hacking again, it's a game, it happens, get over it. EVERY game has that issue.


The problem is, what will be your response if S/E says that the HNM drops can be gotten in other ways? If you're okay with that, then fine. If not, then bringing them back does involve everyone. Not just those who want them.

Yes they can do like they did with Odin and give a mob that still requires some effort to obtain drops that are from HNM.

[Camiie]

Sorry I miss read that. You only have one EMP. Meaning you're casual, you probably never touched an HNM in your life which means you have no ties to them. You wouldn't understand.

I know what you said wasn't directed at me but... I only have one Emp and I have done plenty of HNM camping. Possibly more than you. That's a poor standard to go by to decide who's done HNM and who hasn't.

[Randwolf]

Hacking again, it's a game, it happens, get over it. EVERY game has that issue.
I agree. However, the old HNM structure, in fact any structure, that has highly sought after drops which only come from one source, tends to make hacking worse. Plus, if you didn't want to wait until you got lucky or hack yourself, then you ended up having to pay the hackers for the drop.



Yes they can do like they did with Odin and give a mob that still requires some effort to obtain drops that are from HNM.
I have no problem with a system that has two ways in which to get drops: one, a player versus player route, and the other, a player versus difficult mob route.

[Habu]

Possibly more than you..

I doubt that. /flex

[Winrie]

Vote for Habu 2012. This kid knows whats good.

I need some competition and timesinks like my old FFXI, the good FFXI.

[Smeggles]

Habu,

How are you going to get the "Thrill of outclaiming a rival LS" when you and your 4 buddies are the only people that want this stupid shit back? There won't BE any competition.

HNM's were a stupid design (spawn times/windows) it should have been about the fight, not the time wasted getting the claim.

[Habu]

If you build it they will come.

kudos if you know where that's taken from lol

[Smeggles]

If you build it they will come.

kudos if you know where that's taken from lol

Field of Dreams :)

But no they won't, specially if it's the same power drops or exactly the same gear obtainable elsewhere. People always take the easier route.

SE should spend their development time making difficult, interesting and fun FIGHTS not worrying that people need to spend X hours sitting there doing nothing but waiting on a pop they might not get.

[Habu]

That's like saying people chose to do Odin over HNMs since they dropped basically the same things. Odin didn't have Ridill, D.Ring etc but gave P. Body, Valhalla etc. You still saw people camping HNMS even though 90% of the good gear also dropped from Odin.

[Hayward]

My first inclination was to stay out of this pathetic excuse for a thread. The arguments themselves are so absurd that no one with any sense would take them at face value.

Sparthos pretty much nails it, though. However, I'd say these people are conflating difficulty with exclusivity rather than confusing the two. To them, nothing could have been worse than the concept of Abyssea, where everyone has a shot at getting or building strong weapons/armor if they want to do so. If these "elitists", for lack of a better term, had their way their sensei--he who dares not be named--would be requested to take away all atmas, triple the HP of every NM, make them time spawn every 3-5 days, and drop only crystals/logs/ores at the end of the 99% of the fights. If these folks had their way AF3+2 would be little better than Relic armor and the items to build the armor would take weeks/months to get (see Dynamis circa 2006). People like Dazusu, Arcon, Winrie, and others simply cannot stand the fact that Abyssea completely wrecked their concept of good equipment going only to those who "deserve" them (i.e. kiss enough behind to make mid-level corporate climbers look askance).

[FrankReynolds]

My first inclination was to stay out of this pathetic excuse for a thread. The arguments themselves are so absurd that no one with any sense would take them at face value.

Sparthos pretty much nails it, though. However, I'd say these people are conflating difficulty with exclusivity rather than confusing the two. To them, nothing could have been worse than the concept of Abyssea, where everyone has a shot at getting or building strong weapons/armor if they want to do so. If these "elitists", for lack of a better term, had their way their sensei--he who dares not be named--would be requested to take away all atmas, triple the HP of every NM, make them time spawn every 3-5 days, and drop only crystals/logs/ores at the end of the 99% of the fights. If these folks had their way AF3+2 would be little better than Relic armor and the items to build the armor would take weeks/months to get (see Dynamis circa 2006). People like Dazusu, Arcon, Winrie, and others simply cannot stand the fact that Abyssea completely wrecked their concept of good equipment going only to those who "deserve" them (i.e. kiss enough behind to make mid-level corporate climbers look askance).

I have a different theory. I think they are pissed because they used to be able to watch Sabrina the Teenage Witch marathons all day while their Bot camped NMs for them, but now they have to somewhat pay attention in abbysea / vnm / NI 2.0 to get the best gear. I think they are pissed because they have to work now. They just pull the "I like competition" and "Camping NMs is hard work" cards so that they don't sound like they are just as lazy as the casuals.

[Randwolf]

I think Habu is right that people would do both. However, I think there would be very few who did both the HNM and the other way of getting the drops. And, the majority would do anything that didn't involve the traditional HNM. Of course, S/E might look at that and say, "Why would we create two systems that drop the exact same gear?" I think the fact that they had to add those drops to Odin in the first place says something about the HNM system. But, as before, if S/E makes the HNM drops occur elsewhere, I don't care if they add them

[Habu]

I have a different theory. I think they are pissed because they used to be able to watch Sabrina the Teenage Witch marathons all day while their Bot camped NMs for them, but now they have to somewhat pay attention in abbysea / vnm / NI 2.0 to get the best gear. I think they are pissed because they have to work now. They just pull the "I like competition" and "Camping NMs is hard work" cards so that they don't sound like they are just as lazy as the casuals.

Your post and the one before it just makes my head hurt... we're lazy and don't want to work yet "most" of the "elite" still have the best gear, regardless of how much we have to "work" for it. You know that kind os defines the term "elite" having the best gear possible or damn near it, and since we have "no lives" we have infinite time to do all this "work". Seriously enough with the bot garbage, not everyone who claimed/did HNMs botted, that's just a poor excuse for a person who either A. just got outclaimed or B. doesn't like HNMs.

[Habu]

I think Habu is right that people would do both. However, I think there would be very few who did both the HNM and the other way of getting the drops. And, the majority would do anything that didn't involve the traditional HNM. Of course, S/E might look at that and say, "Why would we create two systems that drop the exact same gear?" I think the fact that they had to add those drops to Odin in the first place says something about the HNM system. But, as before, if S/E makes the HNM drops occur elsewhere, I don't care if they add them

Why can't more people be like you :( <3

[Winrie]

I have a different theory. I think they are pissed because they used to be able to watch Sabrina the Teenage Witch marathons all day while their Bot camped NMs for them, but now they have to somewhat pay attention in abbysea / vnm / NI 2.0 to get the best gear. I think they are pissed because they have to work now. They just pull the "I like competition" and "Camping NMs is hard work" cards so that they don't sound like they are just as lazy as the casuals.

Abyssea ect takes work? last i checked i can auto attack kill anything in the game lately.
Challenge please

[Sparthos]

Your post and the one before it just makes my head hurt... we're lazy and don't want to work yet "most" of the "elite" still have the best gear, regardless of how much we have to "work" for it. You know that kind os defines the term "elite" having the best gear possible or damn near it, and since we have "no lives" we have infinite time to do all this "work". Seriously enough with the bot garbage, not everyone who claimed/did HNMs botted, that's just a poor excuse for a person who either A. just got outclaimed or B. doesn't like HNMs.

And yet at the end of the day world spawns are still garbage no matter how much nostalgia attempts to coat the harsh reality of an archaic system in a delicious vanilla coating. Many who disagree either had a vested interest in monopolizing these monsters (herpaderp kings are easy when you're using bots), has been taken over by their inner masochist (too much exposure to Tanaka) or simply cannot see the reality of how negatively such a system impacted FFXI.

You want something that caters to not only casuals but the hardcore? I have 3 solutions that make world spawns seem the maniacal ravings of a lunatic madman more concerned with keeping people on the hamster wheel in utter frustration rather than creating a game that people are supposed to enjoy.

1. Hakutaku/Alastor Antlion/Shen style spawns.
Remember the humble Hakutaku? How you had to travel around the world and get drops to create a trigger for him? This would work wonderfully for new HNMs and not only encourage people to play (by farming items) but also drum up a market for those who simply wanted to buy the pop items and spawn some mobs.

Casuals would focus on getting supplies to market, Hardcores would spread their wealth down by purchasing items from those who farmed and this would give everyone a 'chance' to spawn that NM with the shines on a level playing field.

2. Point systems.
This crap has been beaten to death already. If you create a point system where the XXX uber gear is at the top of the list you'd have many casuals quit before they ever amassed the points and all the hardcores looking to be gods among men could repeat whatever content it was that had the gear until they obtained the badass set of badassery.

Again, everyone has a fair opportunity to obtain items and the onus lay on the player to choose how far they want to take the pursuit of gear.

3. Tiered Progression
Yet another system where the lower tiers would be the realm of the casual player whereas the higher tier NMs would be difficult enough to keep most greenhorns out of action. Systems like ZNMs and Abyssea involved this type of progression where the lower tier monsters were easily accessible but as you climbed the ladder the need for more hardcore types to take control was needed if you wanted to stand a good chance of clearing content.

Yet again the player has options, the casual has the opportunity to access hardcore content if he/she chooses too all while the top tier players spin their genitals like a helicopter and dive headfirst into the pool of loot.

tl;dr - Kings were garbage and a lazy solution to true tiered content. HNM at best amounted to poor mans PVP where people talked trash, AFK'd for hours on end, bragged about not playing XI before AFKing in town with the cool guy gear all while pretending that running cheats or no-lifing took 'skill'.

Oh and yes, I too once took part in the 'fun' of the three-ring circus that was the almighty world spawns and I'll always look back upon it and say 'wow, this was a crock of shit'.

[Insaniac]

I still don't understand this need to feel superior to others by obtaining gear from things that require no skill to kill. It's just right place, right time, right cheats. If you need to feel like someone on the other side of the screen is raging or having less fun than you then you should get tested for chronic douche bag syndrome. HNMs bred A-holes and A-holes beget A-holes. Eventually all you have is 150 A-holes standing around for 3 hours calling other people A-holes for doing the same A-hole things they are doing.

[Habu]

3. Tiered Progression
Yet another system where the lower tiers would be the realm of the casual player whereas the higher tier NMs would be difficult enough to keep most greenhorns out of action. Systems like ZNMs and Abyssea involved this type of progression where the lower tier monsters were easily accessible but as you climbed the ladder the need for more hardcore types to take control was needed if you wanted to stand a good chance of clearing content.

You were doing good until you said this. Abyssea was never hard, and was generally just easy, repeated content. The only fun thing about it was racing to one of the time spawned NMs you needed to claim to pop the mob you actually wanted.


I still don't understand this need to feel superior to others by obtaining gear from things that require no skill to kill. It's just right place, right time, right cheats. If you need to feel like someone on the other side of the screen is raging or having less fun than you then you should get tested for chronic douche bag syndrome. HNMs bred A-holes and A-holes beget A-holes. Eventually all you have is 150 A-holes standing around for 3 hours calling other people A-holes for doing the same A-hole things they are doing.

And all was right in the world

[Sparthos]

You were doing good until you said this. Abyssea was never hard, and was generally just easy, repeated content. The only fun thing about it was racing to one of the time spawned NMs you needed to claim to pop the mob you actually wanted.

Glavoid wasn't hard at 80?
Bhukis at 85?
Apademak/Pantokrator/Rani at 90?

I think you're glossing over the fact that some of the Abyssea NMs were tough at their respective caps in order to tow the line that Abyssea had no challenges but I'll put that aside and throw out that even at their caps these NMs were tougher/more complex than the entire gamut of previous HNMs that dominated the game.

"Easily repeated content?"

That sounds alot like Kings or are you going to argue that these old worldspawns were more complex battles? The only difference between KB/Aspid/Nid and the Abyssean mobs is that you could pop them in a shorter timespan with the illusion of competition dispelled.

I say illusion because once the initial MPKing stopped and bots became entrenched pathetic efforts to claim something were futile unless you too joined the ranks and bot or got a lucky claim due to incompetence or wipes.

[Dazusu]

Quote from earlier in the thread:

But adding HNM with side-grades, or duplicate drops from other places - why not?



People like Dazusu ... simply cannot stand the fact that Abyssea completely wrecked their concept of good equipment going only to those who "deserve" them (i.e. kiss enough behind to make mid-level corporate climbers look askance).

How exactly did you draw that conclusion from what I posted?

Just because I enjoy HNM, doesn't mean I dislike Abyssea (even though it's stale). Not everyone who enjoyed HNM did so because of 'exclusivity' or 'elitist cliques'. It is completely unnecessary to pigeon-hole everyone that found enjoyment in such content.

As for Abyssea, at the time it was added it was a breath of fresh air, but as I've said before, there's no reason there can't be multiple types of content. If you don't like HNM - don't do them, but why shit your pants because other people might enjoy them (for whatever reason)?

Your post almost just sounds like sheer bitterness. Usually if someone has no interest in something, they just ignore it and go about their business - but its quite alarming the amount of people who just have to express their detest for content that they're never going to bother doing anyway.

Edit:

Sparthos, completely missed your post due to replying to Hayward above, but props to you sir. I'd actually prefer to see content like Hakutaku/Alastor Antlion/Shen or another Sea/Sky-like zone, or ZNM system. That shit would beat new HNM hands down. Sadly, that's even more unlikely to see daylight though.

[Habu]

Glavoid wasn't hard at 80?
Bhukis at 85?
Apademak/Pantokrator/Rani at 90?

I think you're glossing over the fact that some of the Abyssea NMs were tough at their respective caps in order to tow the line that Abyssea had no challenges but I'll put that aside and throw out that even at their caps these NMs were tougher/more complex than the entire gamut of previous HNMs that dominated the game.

"Easily repeated content?"

That sounds alot like Kings or are you going to argue that these old worldspawns were more complex battles? The only difference between KB/Aspid/Nid and the Abyssean mobs is that you could pop them in a shorter timespan with the illusion of competition dispelled.

I say illusion because once the initial MPKing stopped and bots became entrenched pathetic efforts to claim something were futile unless you too joined the ranks and bot or got a lucky claim due to incompetence or wipes.

No they were not hard at their respective levels as long as you had competent people playing with you. All I'm hearing is bots bots bots bots bots bots. This is a video people cheat in video games all the time, if you don't like it you can do one of two things 1. accept it and play around it 2. qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq

[Sparthos]

No they were not hard at their respective levels as long as you had competent people playing with you. All I'm hearing is bots bots bots bots bots bots. This is a video people cheat in video games all the time, if you don't like it you can do one of two things 1. accept it and play around it 2. qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq

Ah yes, the old 'competent' argument precision deployed in a blanket fashion. Nevermind Glavoid shit all over anything the old Kings or even newer mobs like Lambton Worm could muster, they were all snoozefests in the great blanketland of Abyssea where nothing was ever hard, ever.

There is a reason you're hearing 'bots bots bots bots bots' and when you figure that out perhaps you'll arrive at the conclusion as to why no one wants to return to the shitholes of '06 FFXI.

Play around it? How amusing. If world pops don't have the best gear available then no one does it (see: Scylla, Hydra, Vrtra, Jorm) and if it does have the best gear then people cheat the hell out of it and establish monopolies at the expense of the base. Your 'qqqqqqqq' statement simply reveals that behind all the skill taut that you simply desire to dominate endgame through tools and delusions of their being fair play.

[Habu]

Show me one time in this thread where anyone said HNMs were hard? I'll be waiting. I'm sure on your journey looking through posts you'll find multiple ones where I said "HNM's WEREN'T HARD".

[Zerich]

Abyssea ect takes work? last i checked i can auto attack kill anything in the game lately.
Challenge please

If you had a sufficient intelligence quota paired with the reading comprehension skills of a college student, you'd be able to create a script to play this game more efficiently than you could ever dream.
But the question remains, why haven't you done it yet?

[SNK]

Oh and yes, I too once took part in the 'fun' of the three-ring circus that was the almighty world spawns and I'll always look back upon it and say 'wow, this was a crock of shit'.

I was also a part of this since 2005 and I'm only sad it took 3 years to get a Ridill and 5 years to finally get an Ebody. While the camping was easy I am glad this system is dead and buried.

[Spiritreaver]

Apologies, weekend went pear-shaped after my last post in this thread, just getting back to it.


There's a huge difference between:


Intentionally gimping yourself to make easy content that anyone can complete harder.

and


Already hard content that only the best players can complete.


True i suppose. But there is still the choice to set the difficulty higher for that challenge some ppl say they want.

But then my definition of challenge my be a bit different than that of some. CoP(as much as i loathed it) had challenging fights @75 cap before it was opened up. The only challenge i remember from the HNM scene back in the day was the unstructured PvP-lite antics shells played on one another back then.

The actual fights against the HNMs were complete breezes after the first time in most cases. Outside of a very small few, there were no already hard HNMs back then, not really.



Ok I just tried this with the pops that I had on me. I 4 man'd Glavoid, Ecc Eve, Bria, Itzapop and the Iron Giant in Altepa. It was a little harder I'll give you that but I don't cherish the thought of intentionally gimping myself to make stuff harder. Next you'll tell me do fight them naked or without a weapon.

Read the whole reply, but bolded the bit that just reinforces my point.

Not picking at you Habu, but outside of the competition between shells back in the day, there was no super challenge in the HNM scene. Name a mob and someone can pull up a strat for it and someone else can go out and slay it. No muss, no fuss-this has not changed one bit since say '06 or thereabouts.

What has changed is that for the most part the need for the big shells are gone. Not going into root causes of that, you should know them. And with no big shells stamping about, competition isn't what it used to be.

I'm gonna posit something now: Maybe it is not challenge that you want, maybe its competition?

And that's fine by me. Like i've said elsewhere though, just own your feelings dude.



And yet at the end of the day world spawns are still garbage no matter how much nostalgia attempts to coat the harsh reality of an archaic system in a delicious vanilla coating. Many who disagree either had a vested interest in monopolizing these monsters (herpaderp kings are easy when you're using bots), has been taken over by their inner masochist (too much exposure to Tanaka) or simply cannot see the reality of how negatively such a system impacted FFXI.

You want something that caters to not only casuals but the hardcore? I have 3 solutions that make world spawns seem the maniacal ravings of a lunatic madman more concerned with keeping people on the hamster wheel in utter frustration rather than creating a game that people are supposed to enjoy.

1. Hakutaku/Alastor Antlion/Shen style spawns.
Remember the humble Hakutaku? How you had to travel around the world and get drops to create a trigger for him? This would work wonderfully for new HNMs and not only encourage people to play (by farming items) but also drum up a market for those who simply wanted to buy the pop items and spawn some mobs.

Casuals would focus on getting supplies to market, Hardcores would spread their wealth down by purchasing items from those who farmed and this would give everyone a 'chance' to spawn that NM with the shines on a level playing field.

2. Point systems.
This crap has been beaten to death already. If you create a point system where the XXX uber gear is at the top of the list you'd have many casuals quit before they ever amassed the points and all the hardcores looking to be gods among men could repeat whatever content it was that had the gear until they obtained the badass set of badassery.

Again, everyone has a fair opportunity to obtain items and the onus lay on the player to choose how far they want to take the pursuit of gear.

3. Tiered Progression
Yet another system where the lower tiers would be the realm of the casual player whereas the higher tier NMs would be difficult enough to keep most greenhorns out of action. Systems like ZNMs and Abyssea involved this type of progression where the lower tier monsters were easily accessible but as you climbed the ladder the need for more hardcore types to take control was needed if you wanted to stand a good chance of clearing content.

Yet again the player has options, the casual has the opportunity to access hardcore content if he/she chooses too all while the top tier players spin their genitals like a helicopter and dive headfirst into the pool of loot.

tl;dr - Kings were garbage and a lazy solution to true tiered content. HNM at best amounted to poor mans PVP where people talked trash, AFK'd for hours on end, bragged about not playing XI before AFKing in town with the cool guy gear all while pretending that running cheats or no-lifing took 'skill'.

Oh and yes, I too once took part in the 'fun' of the three-ring circus that was the almighty world spawns and I'll always look back upon it and say 'wow, this was a crock of shit'.

Quoted this post after i had mostly finished the above. Wish i could like it multiple times. The last line is EXACTLY how i reacted at the end of my stint in that whole scene. It was my Ralphie moment(one word-Ovaltine).

[Arcon]

I have a different theory. I think they are pissed because they used to be able to watch Sabrina the Teenage Witch marathons all day while their Bot camped NMs for them, but now they have to somewhat pay attention in abbysea / vnm / NI 2.0 to get the best gear. I think they are pissed because they have to work now. They just pull the "I like competition" and "Camping NMs is hard work" cards so that they don't sound like they are just as lazy as the casuals.

I can't speak for the others, but for me it's two things. First of all, personally, I like the exclusiveness of rare items. That's also why I went out of my way to camp very rare NMs/drops, because rarity is something that excites me. I like being rewarded for dedication. It's why I wasted 80M on KB and it's also why I still camp Noble Mold. I don't think a Rain Hat will do me much good at this point, but I still wanna have it. I like possessing rare items.

Secondly, I like competition. I know it sounds weird, especially because I hate it in other places (like Dynamis for example), but there is a reason behind it. I like feeling like I'm chasing something big and the feeling when I win against others is great. And I am fully aware that it doesn't have anything at all to do with skill but just luck. But that's always a factor. It's like hunting for a treasure against others, and someone just gets a lucky break and finds it first. That doesn't mean they're more skilled or anything, but that doesn't make the chase any less fun, it doesn't make the thrill go away. The feeling when you get a claim is really rewarding, even if it was just luck and nothing else. I'm sure you'd enjoy winning the lottery as well, even if you know there isn't any skill involved.

And I also must admit that I enjoy the occasional HNM drama, although I know that people will tear this statement apart, but whatever. I liked people raging over a flailed Fafnir, accuse others of all kinds of shit when they lost claim, or wasting everyone's Chainspell by pulling one Knight Crab out of range and holding it. In before "that says all about you as a person", like I care. It was good times and I enjoyed it.

And lastly, I don't need HNM back. I wouldn't care if they never returned, I'm happy thinking about it as something I got a kick out of in the past. That's for two reasons as well. First of all, I still like the game and do plenty of other things. I simply don't need them to enjoy this game. I never did, by the way, I didn't camp them nearly as much as others may have done, mostly due to lack of people to do it with. Secondly, as was also pointed out before, there are better systems in place. Tiered spawned HNMs will always be a better concept, and I certainly wouldn't mind that being added instead of world spawns.

Also, Hayward:
There's two entirely different arguments here. People complain about difficulty and people complain about exclusivity. Two entirely different things and completely unrelated. I don't think anyone at all thinks HNM were hard (although some fights actually were harder than most other things in the game). I'm not conflating those two terms, difficulty is entirely off-topic here. Exclusivity is an entirely desirable attribute on its own, which is what this is about to me.

[Anapingofness]

Pft, old school HNM can bite my Elvaan behind.

I don't miss it. In fact, most people don't miss it.

If you miss the so called "challenge" from old endgame then go do VW and Aby w/o buffs. If you want to go and "camp" (read: sit and do nothing for hours) land kings all over again then go and do it, nobody is stopping you. Likewise, if you want old exp party format then go and make one, but don't come to these forums and give SE bad ideas/advice. They're liable to follow it.

This game becoming more casual player friendly is one of the best things that's ever happened to it, hands down. If anything it needs to keep moving forward, not backwards. If anything SE needs to go back and either revive old content or get rid of it altogether.

[Habu]

Brb intentionally gimping myself while going to camp land kings that aren't there anymore. Do you realize how dumb of a post that was?

[Anapingofness]

Brb intentionally gimping myself while going to camp land kings that aren't there anymore. Do you realize how dumb of a post that was?

You mean to tell me you don't like sitting around doing nothing?

D=!!! omgnowai!!

Golly Gee! Habu! Here I thought this is precisely what your post was about!

/end sarcasm

Cause that's pretty much what you did in old school endgame and that's precisely why people don't want to go back to it.

[Winrie]

Pft, old school HNM can bite my Elvaan behind.

I don't miss it. In fact, most people don't miss it.

If you miss the so called "challenge" from old endgame then go do VW and Aby w/o buffs. If you want to go and "camp" (read: sit and do nothing for hours) land kings all over again then go and do it, nobody is stopping you. Likewise, if you want old exp party format then go and make one, but don't come to these forums and give SE bad ideas/advice. They're liable to follow it.

This game becoming more casual player friendly is one of the best things that's ever happened to it, hands down. If anything it needs to keep moving forward, not backwards. If anything SE needs to go back and either revive old content or get rid of it altogether.

Bolded to point out retardation, If most people didn't like the system then you wouldn't have a thread so large about the topic. Secondly sorry, having to gimp yourself on purpose to 'enjoy' something is not good game design, if i have to forcefully make myself weak to enjoy a challenge then something has to change.

I'm also sorry but mentioning glavoid ect. is foolish, let alone anything Abyssea related, every mob in abyssea was difficult, yet still easily manageable at their related level caps at the time. And as the months went by it got stupider, and easier, to a point now a BST can solo mostly everything in this game now when it hits 99, most cases even lower level. But seriously, if you don't like a system or suggestion someone makes on the forums, i think simply inputting your opinion yes or no is smarter than ranting on about how stupid it is, everyone has a different preference in how they play this game, from you to habu, telling someone to not bring their ideas to these forums defeats the purpose of the forums itself. Sorry~

[Habu]

You mean to tell me you don't like sitting around doing nothing?

D=!!! omgnowai!!

Golly Gee! Habu! Here I thought this is precisely what your post was about!

/end sarcasm

Cause that's pretty much what you did in old school endgame and that's precisely why people don't want to go back to it.

I still camp Tiamat since it's pretty much the last worthwhile HNM, she is good to me, usually brings in 18-36M split between two people.


But seriously, if you don't like a system or suggestion someone makes on the forums, i think simply inputting your opinion yes or no is smarter than ranting on about how stupid it is, everyone has a different preference in how they play this game, from you to habu, telling someone to not bring their ideas to these forums defeats the purpose of the forums itself. Sorry~

Quoted for truth

[Randwolf]

Funny this arguing is going on forever. Most of you wouldn't care if all the elite drops from HNM's could also be acquired through another means. At least that is what your posts seem to say. And, I think that you then would be left with the group that likes camping HNM's for the sake of that system and not the elitism. Everyone wins. Whether S/E would implement such a thing is another question.

[Sparthos]

I can't speak for the others, but for me it's two things. First of all, personally, I like the exclusiveness of rare items. That's also why I went out of my way to camp very rare NMs/drops, because rarity is something that excites me. I like being rewarded for dedication. It's why I wasted 80M on KB and it's also why I still camp Noble Mold. I don't think a Rain Hat will do me much good at this point, but I still wanna have it. I like possessing rare items.

I can appreciate the rare item sentiment but yet again world spawns aren't needed for this and at least to me, collecting a bunch of rare items from around the world to do battle with a badass monster that has a rare drop is in every way superior to sitting at a spot, waiting days on end for it spawn only to lose it to the guy running a bot while he's asleep.

When I got my Hachiryu Haidate and Haramaki I was thrilled because I built those popsets, I helped kill all the trash mobs and finally when Pandemonium Warden came around I had the knowledge that I had been involved at every point in getting these two pieces of very rare and highly sought gear and none of it involved AFKing for hours on end. I was... playing FFXI and earning my keep.


Secondly, I like competition. I know it sounds weird, especially because I hate it in other places (like Dynamis for example), but there is a reason behind it. I like feeling like I'm chasing something big and the feeling when I win against others is great. And I am fully aware that it doesn't have anything at all to do with skill but just luck. But that's always a factor. It's like hunting for a treasure against others, and someone just gets a lucky break and finds it first. That doesn't mean they're more skilled or anything, but that doesn't make the chase any less fun, it doesn't make the thrill go away. The feeling when you get a claim is really rewarding, even if it was just luck and nothing else. I'm sure you'd enjoy winning the lottery as well, even if you know there isn't any skill involved.

There was very little 'competition' at Kings by the time programs took over the claiming processes on most servers. Your lottery analogy works in RL because everyone has a fair (albeit microscopic) chance of winning but this was not the case with the competitive aspects of FFXI. Would people be so eager to put down money in RL if the odds were not only microscopic but it were known that certain people had higher odds through seeing some of the numbers prior to a drawing? There was very little luck here, just guys desperate enough to pay good sums for bots that gave an advantage over others and worse, SE couldn't/didn't do a thing about it.

Competition is great but if we really wanted competition in XI we'd be asking to create a PVP or team PVP system within the existing framework of Brenner where some level of skill would determine if your team won or lost matches. If people really wanted the 'thrills' of dynamic environments where your opponents moves were to some extent were unknown sprinkled in with the boons of drama that came with wins or losses PVP again does a superior job of delivering that style of content to Kings. Players get to bring skill to the table and put up, the really skilled would be rewarded, the less skilled would get owned by the vets and drama would be in excess across the board.

Why does no one bring PVP to the table? Because to some extent the idea of dominating claims, being the liege lord of Ebodies - deciding who gets to don the blue suit of win - was intoxicating. The calls of skill and competition will always take a backseat to the nature of wanting to 'own' an HNM by any tools necessary.


And I also must admit that I enjoy the occasional HNM drama, although I know that people will tear this statement apart, but whatever. I liked people raging over a flailed Fafnir, accuse others of all kinds of shit when they lost claim, or wasting everyone's Chainspell by pulling one Knight Crab out of range and holding it. In before "that says all about you as a person", like I care. It was good times and I enjoyed it.

I too enjoyed drama to some extent (nerdraging over losing Sandworm because hes a slow POS, claiming Dark Ixion and holding him on solo RNG while my guys poured into zone, enjoying the LS vitriol when someone CFH'd Aspid at 2AM standout) but at that point my enjoyment was coming at the expense of the game as a whole. The game shouldn't have been for only a handful of people and by '09 this game was in a crappy place because SE built the entire game around that core elite event that became infested with people so desperate to 'own' that the worst type of people became internet celebrities while actual players were left with three choices:

1. Struggle through the hoops of content like Einherjar while the cheaters cheat.
2. Pay highly inflated sums to people gaming the system.
3. Quit this MMO and move on to greener pastures.

If we really wanted hardcore, top of the crop elitist drama we all should have been playing EVE online instead of this. XI just never delivered and most of the content when we boil away the emotions were pretty poorly pieced together and Kings was one of the worst offenders.

[FrankReynolds]

Your post and the one before it just makes my head hurt... we're lazy and don't want to work yet "most" of the "elite" still have the best gear, regardless of how much we have to "work" for it. You know that kind os defines the term "elite" having the best gear possible or damn near it, and since we have "no lives" we have infinite time to do all this "work". Seriously enough with the bot garbage, not everyone who claimed/did HNMs botted, that's just a poor excuse for a person who either A. just got outclaimed or B. doesn't like HNMs.

You say people got out claimed as is that had anything to do with skill level. It didn't. and for the record, I had every good King drop except for D ring back at 75.

I don't like HNM because I like to play FFXI. I don't like to just have it running on the other screen to keep me company. A 3 hour spawn window means 3 hours of not playing. I can not play a game for 3 hours from anywhere in the world without paying 12.95 a month. As a matter of fact, trying to explain why you want to pay to do nothing for 3 hours a day is a sure sign of dementia.

People still camp all those crappy NMs required for Empyrian weapons. Why don't you go bot those? You could get tons of competition that way. I'm sure people would love you.

[Hercule]

You say people got out claimed as is that had anything to do with skill level. It didn't. and for the record, I had every good King drop except for D ring back at 75.

I don't like HNM because I like to play FFXI. I don't like to just have it running on the other screen to keep me company. A 3 hour spawn window means 3 hours of not playing. I can not play a game for 3 hours from anywhere in the world without paying 12.95 a month. As a matter of fact, trying to explain why you want to pay to do nothing for 3 hours a day is a sure sign of dementia.

People still camp all those crappy NMs required for Empyrian weapons. Why don't you go bot those? You could get tons of competition that way. I'm sure people would love you.

I post my thread again,
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/18977-Suggestion-How-to-reintroduce-HNMLS-gameplay-in-FFXI-Lv99%E2%80%8F
This is the thread i made about how we could reintroduce and made HNM world pop better, you can think my ideas are bad or what you want, but if you have better idea(s) about how reintroduce World Pop HNM, you should start a Thread about it :p

But i agree old world pop HNM with 3 hours+ camp was a too long wait

[Camiie]

Funny this arguing is going on forever. Most of you wouldn't care if all the elite drops from HNM's could also be acquired through another means. At least that is what your posts seem to say. And, I think that you then would be left with the group that likes camping HNM's for the sake of that system and not the elitism. Everyone wins. Whether S/E would implement such a thing is another question.

Actually I don't want to see them go down this path at all. The game is actually better by its omission. That's how awful a concept the 21-24+ hour HNM is. A system that breeds inactivity, botting, and drama the way HNM did is nothing but a blight upon the game and its community.

One of the smartest things SE has ever done is change the old kings and move present/future content into more active, inclusive, and cooperative directions. Alternate sources of loot be damned. I'd forgo the shiniest shinies of all just to not have Vana'diel polluted with this ridiculous, archaic nonsense ever again.

[Habu]

You say people got out claimed as is that had anything to do with skill level. It didn't. and for the record, I had every good King drop except for D ring back at 75.

I don't like HNM because I like to play FFXI. I don't like to just have it running on the other screen to keep me company. A 3 hour spawn window means 3 hours of not playing. I can not play a game for 3 hours from anywhere in the world without paying 12.95 a month. As a matter of fact, trying to explain why you want to pay to do nothing for 3 hours a day is a sure sign of dementia.

People still camp all those crappy NMs required for Empyrian weapons. Why don't you go bot those? You could get tons of competition that way. I'm sure people would love you.

Because current FFXI still doesn't require you to wait for something, it does. If you don't want to do HNMs don't do them, no one will be forcing you. Again bots, diaf. I don't bot my LS never did, and we had a pretty decent claim rate. This especially goes for DI/SW and yet I still would like to see something like Faf/KB/Aspid brought back because I liked them. Did we claim everyday no, was it still for ~>ME<~ yes.

[Benihana]

EVE Online is a pretty epic game, actually. lolz

love it lol

still want new world hnm though.

I love how everyones getting screwed by vw, legion and neo nyzul ( and probably soon to be other events) and yet they still TREMBLE WITH FEAR, WITH THE THOUGHT OF WORLD SPAWNING MONSTERS!

Honestly, the events now are as backbreaking as they ever were, it's just hidden behind a different game mechanic.

[FrankReynolds]

Because current FFXI still doesn't require you to wait for something, it does. If you don't want to do HNMs don't do them, no one will be forcing you.

Thanks for pointing that out. there are probably a few other areas where they could eliminate waiting too. People are required to wait for lots of things. I have yet to hear anyone say they wished there was more waiting in life. Are you one of the slowski turtles from the broadband commercials on TV? If so which one? the husband or the wife?

If they added HNMs with shit gear, no one would do them. It's all about the gear. As long as the gear from these HNMs is anywhere near as good / easy to get as other methods, people will be more or less forced to do them.


Again bots, diaf. I don't bot my LS never did, and we had a pretty decent claim rate. This especially goes for DI/SW and yet I still would like to see something like Faf/KB/Aspid brought back because I liked them. Did we claim everyday no, was it still for ~>ME<~ yes.

Yes bots again. They are a fact, not fiction. You can't change that no matter how many times you blab about how you have the mad claiming skillz.

[Habu]

You're ignoring the fact that these problems are in every known game. For every game there's a hack/cheat/bot no matter what the game is about. Complaining about is useless and pretty dumb, there's nothing SE nor any other company in the world can do about them. If you want to try and justify it by saying it gives an unfair advantage then what about bots in Abyssea, different tools to pop NMs as soon as the ??? is available. Fishing bots, crafting bots, lumbering, every aspect of the game there's something you can do to make it easier. Guess we should just take all content except communicating in the game away since it's "infected by bots and unfair advantages".

[Zerich]

You're ignoring the fact that these problems are in every known game. For every game there's a hack/cheat/bot no matter what the game is about. Complaining about is useless and pretty dumb, there's nothing SE nor any other company in the world can do about them. If you want to try and justify it by saying it gives an unfair advantage then what about bots in Abyssea, different tools to pop NMs as soon as the ??? is available. Fishing bots, crafting bots, lumbering, every aspect of the game there's something you can do to make it easier. Guess we should just take all content except communicating in the game away since it's "infected by bots and unfair advantages".

there's a difference between all of the aforementioned 'bots' and the bots that are involved with land kings. there is only one chance at them. if the bot claims, holds, and signals the party to kill, then that is a complete waste of time for everyone else who inhabits the server, for a few more days...minimum. go take your epeen, and shove it somewhere else, if that's the thrill you get.

[Habu]

There's no difference cheating is cheating, if one form of a bot is wrong then every other form of it should be crucified just as much. Don't pick and choose what forms you want to scrutinize. Again no one if forcing anyone to camp, if you don't like the system then don't participate it's that simple. Stop talking about how it will effect you personally, it's your choice to do them or not.

[Alhanelem]

Again no one if forcing anyone to camp, if you don't like the system then don't participate it's that simple.Most of us have made that choice already. I again ask what's the point spending any time creating new content (REGARDLESS OF THE AMOUNT OF TIME REQUIRED TO MAKE SAID CONTENT) that nobody (and when I say nobody, I mean 'insignificant number') is going to participate in. Nobody does the current HNMs on a regular basis as it is. You can find many of them up and unclaimed- there is no sense of competition in this, so one of the things that was the source of enjoyment for regular participants just isn't there. Adding a couple more NMs with long repop timers and spawn windows that have sidegrade drops isn't likely to change that (I'll stop short of saying it wouldn't at all).


Stop talking about how it will effect you personally, it's your choice to do them or not. They can talk about it all they want- it's relevant. It sends the accurate message that this kind of content isn't very strongly desired by the playerbase as a whole. If you really think lots of other people really like this idea, then get them to show their support. Then you might convince them it's content worth adding.

Complaining about cheaters is a legitimate point. With the content that came out later, it was harder to get a kind of advantage that significantly interfered with other people's ability to experience content- you can't claim bot assault or einherjar or voidwatch or nyzul- you can't ruin other people's experience in those events with a cheat. At HNM however, cheats ARE able to ruin other people's experiences.

Edit: Jesus Christ, I looked at the last page and Sparthos is on a roll- I don't always agree with you Sparthos but if there's one thing I can count on with you it's a detailed and informative expression of your thoughts. In this thread, he's right on the money.


No they were not hard at their respective levels as long as you had competent people playing with you.Hm.... So, you beat Rani when it first came out the very first time with a group of other people also doing it the first time, and you did it without a brew? Yes, everything in abyssea is easy if you use a brew. But a brew is a purchasable easy button. You don't always have it handy- If you want to tell me that Rani and the other NMs mentioned on the previous page were "easy" then I want the drugs you were taking, because those fights were NOT easy when they were new. The only fights I would label "easy" are those that I and most people would beat on the first try with no prior knowledge and minimal effort. If it beats you at least once or you don't win 100% of the time, there is at least a minor difficulty factor to it.

[Zerich]

There's no difference cheating is cheating, if one form of a bot is wrong then every other form of it should be crucified just as much. Don't pick and choose what forms you want to scrutinize. Again no one if forcing anyone to camp, if you don't like the system then don't participate it's that simple. Stop talking about how it will effect you personally, it's your choice to do them or not.

but when that becomes the main source of the "best-in-slot" gear, it becomes a part of the gameplay. that's what they were for their time of relevance. so they were a part of the game play. good riddance.

[Natenn]

Abyssea & VWNM are pacifyers for 90% of whats left of the "community". The not adding world spawn HNM 21-24hr/2-3 day/3-5 day spawns are whats killing this game off mainly. Now that a noob can go from Lv1 to 99 in 3 days or less is crap too, i remember when SE made a huge deal over 500k ppl playing FFXI. This was in the glory days, back b4 RMT ruined gil HNM like Sim/Roc/KA/CC/Serket etc. My best memorys were back in the days starting in a tiny HNMLS logging at Bune or Sim b4 maint, or camping NQ Behe and hope HQ didn't pop when hides were 2M, growing over time into one of the powerhouse LSs killing Nidhogg/Cerb/Khim same day back when titles meant something. Now its like: full perle WARs with 85 Ukon Prov watcher = disgusting. The fact that the HNMs had a long repop kept crappy players from getting goods w/o trying. I loved outclaiming new LSs and every time they would cry bot, with 0 evidence. Casuals want everything handed to them. Nothing was wrong with 21-24 HNM with the exception that ppl could "bot".

[Habu]

I honestly don't know why people are still responding to this. People have a difference of opinion, I like HNMs, you don't, ok. Let's move on from that point, neither side is going to change their opinion, but saying things such as you're dumb if you want this, only scum botters like HNM brings it to a personal level. If you don't like them then simply post "I wouldn't really care for them to be reimplemented" or if you do "Sure sounds like a good idea" and move on. Saying one form of the game is better than another is an arbitrary remark because everyone likes something different, and saying something sucks is only going to offend someone/somehow.

I understand some of you like the game in its current state with Abyssea and VW but there are others out there like myself who enjoyed the game more in HNM days. Will anything you say on here change that, no, there's no point trying. I've stated my opinions as to why I like it, everyone has stated their respective opinion on why they don't, why continue this circular argument any further?

You've stated that claim bots ruled the HNM scene and I said there were bots in every aspect of the game, and in most cases every game invented. Yes they had more of an impact in HNM than other realms of the game because it effected others in real-time. People don't care as much about something unless it effects them directly, which is why many aren't bothered with those fishing/crafting/auto-spawning NMs/botting in Abyssea, because in most cases it wont effect you at this point in time. If you ask a crafter/fisher who is hardcore into that aspect how much he/she hates botters they might respond with "I worked hard to manually skillup my craft and make money but these people who botted it up are ruining my profits". Back when Abyssea was first being released it was a big issue, but now that a majority of people have finished what they want it's not a problem.

I agreed with the option that a few others have mentioned to bring back HNMs but make the drops also come from another source such as they did with Odin. Players like myself could still get their enjoyment out of camping them while others can still obtain the ideas through another source. I really don't see how this could make anyone mad, it seems like a pretty good resolution for the problem of people not wanting to camp to obtain said gear.

It's in the devs hands if they decide to do anything or not, anything we say/do at this point is most likely not going effect any of their decisions. So once again I purpose to drop this bitter back and forth arguing over personal satisfaction and how you get it from this game.

[Natenn]

Even then a bot was pointless, i outclaimed em enough that is worthwhile to still go, and no one "botted" tia at 75, no one camped EVERY window and tagged on pop with a bot.80% of time it was mules there or a PLD+ an ES Sleeper. i loved HNM, i loved the drama that came with it, i loved the jellyness of noobs who would tag SW/DI and die/let it go unclaimed or just flat out not claim bc they didnt bring powder boots. I really hope they bring it back, bc now theres no need for big LSs, no need to put forth work in getting items, and its just flat out a socializing game now. There is no real cohtent that is hard, its all zerg based or lets you crutch on atmas and procs.

[Zerich]

I honestly don't know why people are still responding to this. People have a difference of opinion, I like HNMs, you don't, ok. Let's move on from that point, neither side is going to change their opinion, but saying things such as you're dumb if you want this, only scum botters like HNM brings it to a personal level. If you don't like them then simply post "I wouldn't really care for them to be reimplemented" or if you do "Sure sounds like a good idea" and move on. Saying one form of the game is better than another is an arbitrary remark because everyone likes something different, and saying something sucks is only going to offend someone/somehow.

I understand some of you like the game in its current state with Abyssea and VW but there are others out there like myself who enjoyed the game more in HNM days. Will anything you say on here change that, no, there's no point trying. I've stated my opinions as to why I like it, everyone has stated their respective opinion on why they don't, why continue this circular argument any further?

You've stated that claim bots ruled the HNM scene and I said there were bots in every aspect of the game, and in most cases every game invented. Yes they had more of an impact in HNM than other realms of the game because it effected others in real-time. People don't care as much about something unless it effects them directly, which is why many aren't bothered with those fishing/crafting/auto-spawning NMs/botting in Abyssea, because in most cases it wont effect you at this point in time. If you ask a crafter/fisher who is hardcore into that aspect how much he/she hates botters they might respond with "I worked hard to manually skillup my craft and make money but these people who botted it up are ruining my profits". Back when Abyssea was first being released it was a big issue, but now that a majority of people have finished what they want it's not a problem.

I agreed with the option that a few others have mentioned to bring back HNMs but make the drops also come from another source such as they did with Odin. Players like myself could still get their enjoyment out of camping them while others can still obtain the ideas through another source. I really don't see how this could make anyone mad, it seems like a pretty good resolution for the problem of people not wanting to camp to obtain said gear.

It's in the devs hands if they decide to do anything or not, anything we say/do at this point is most likely not going effect any of their decisions. So once again I purpose to drop this bitter back and forth arguing over personal satisfaction and how you get it from this game.

because this is the internet, and a thread on the official forums.
we all feel strongly against your feelings and will keep presenting our opinions, experiences, and rhetoric to overshadow your "i want it, and want no one else to have it" mentality.
btw. your last paragraph completely invalidates any further attempts to defend your viewpoint. but please, keep posting.

[Benihana]

because this is the internet, and a thread on the official forums.
we all feel strongly against your feelings and will keep presenting our opinions, experiences, and rhetoric to overshadow your "i want it, and want no one else to have it" mentality.
btw. your last paragraph completely invalidates any further attempts to defend your viewpoint. but please, keep posting.

I'm surprised you're still here Taruina.

The logic that just because you post more, you must be right is a highlight to your level of intelligence.

You scream louder so you must be stronger. No, you just sound mad tbh.

[Zerich]

I'm surprised you're still here Taruina.

The logic that just because you post more, you must be right is a highlight to your level of intelligence.

You scream louder so you must be stronger. No, you just sound mad tbh.

nothing relevant to the conversation...coolstorybrah

[Natenn]

because this is the internet, and a thread on the official forums.
we all feel strongly against your feelings and will keep presenting our opinions, experiences, and rhetoric to overshadow your "i want it, and want no one else to have it" mentality.
btw. your last paragraph completely invalidates any further attempts to defend your viewpoint. but please, keep posting.

You remind me of Greenpeace; they think they're doing something good but everyone else just laughs at them and keeps on kiliing whales.

[Benihana]

nothing relevant to the conversation...coolstorybrah

Again, Love how you whoosh yourself. If you're going to cal me out on something, at least do your best not to do the same thing. DERP

its like those people who comment on someones spelling and grammar and dont know the difference between your and you're.

(you're one of those people btw)

[Benihana]

You remind me of Greenpeace; they think they're doing something good but everyone else just laughs at them and keeps on kiliing whales.


lmao COSIGN. She is hilarious haha. Love the comparison.

[Zerich]

You remind me of Greenpeace; they think they're doing something good but everyone else just laughs at them and keeps on kiliing whales.

habu & co. are the jp whale hunters....omg...

[Benihana]

habu & co. are the jp whale hunters....omg...


dude you just got compared to GREENPEACE!

[Zerich]

dude you just got compared to GREENPEACE!

kk hiroshima...burn

[Camiie]

Abyssea & VWNM are pacifyers for 90% of whats left of the "community". The not adding world spawn HNM 21-24hr/2-3 day/3-5 day spawns are whats killing this game off mainly.

I'd argue that having an endgame like that is what kept the game from becoming as big as it should have been. It's not much of a selling point that's for sure.


The fact that the HNMs had a long repop kept crappy players from getting goods w/o trying.

No they didn't. There were PLENTY of crappy players in endgame. Some of them were leaders in fact! Some were only there because they were someone's BFF or significant other. Sturgeon's Law applies to endgame players as much as anything else. 90% of everything is crap.


I loved outclaiming new LSs and every time they would cry bot, with 0 evidence. Casuals want everything handed to them. Nothing was wrong with 21-24 HNM with the exception that ppl could "bot".

So, if content doesn't involve a 21-24 hour HNM then it's just a free loot dispenser for casuals?

[Habu]

because this is the internet, and a thread on the official forums.
we all feel strongly against your feelings and will keep presenting our opinions, experiences, and rhetoric to overshadow your "i want it, and want no one else to have it" mentality.
btw. your last paragraph completely invalidates any further attempts to defend your viewpoint. but please, keep posting.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5cra4gyKr1rxmba4o1_400.gif

[Llana_Virren]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5cra4gyKr1rxmba4o1_400.gif

Exactly what the official forums needed, more GIFs <.<

Seriously?

[Sparthos]

Abyssea & VWNM are pacifyers for 90% of whats left of the "community". The not adding world spawn HNM 21-24hr/2-3 day/3-5 day spawns are whats killing this game off mainly. Now that a noob can go from Lv1 to 99 in 3 days or less is crap too, i remember when SE made a huge deal over 500k ppl playing FFXI. This was in the glory days, back b4 RMT ruined gil HNM like Sim/Roc/KA/CC/Serket etc. My best memorys were back in the days starting in a tiny HNMLS logging at Bune or Sim b4 maint, or camping NQ Behe and hope HQ didn't pop when hides were 2M, growing over time into one of the powerhouse LSs killing Nidhogg/Cerb/Khim same day back when titles meant something. Now its like: full perle WARs with 85 Ukon Prov watcher = disgusting. The fact that the HNMs had a long repop kept crappy players from getting goods w/o trying. I loved outclaiming new LSs and every time they would cry bot, with 0 evidence. Casuals want everything handed to them. Nothing was wrong with 21-24 HNM with the exception that ppl could "bot".

Your delusions of the game being any different in terms of who was good and bad is laughable at best and for all the huffing and puffing people like yourself make about "bad players having amazing gear" many HNMLS had no problem selling this gear to players for 30m/abjuration all while patting themselves on the back for getting the claim (legit or not) and making a mint off it. Where was this sense of "earning" gear when you were selling the resident gilbuyers/morons/desperate EBody, NHead, AHands, BB items or Ridills? Oh right, everyone was silent on the topic while raking in that gil for the LS cuts.

You don't really expect to get away with this statement:


The fact that the HNMs had a long repop kept crappy players from getting goods w/o trying.

do you? I'm laughing my ass off right now. Change the 'trying' to 'buying' and you're spot on.

[Habu]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-O-1rV7u3GMo/T8PVqvVmyRI/AAAAAAAAE3U/i6528JGuLaM/s1600/CircularReasoning.jpg

[Habu]

Seriously why you we still arguing lol

[Sparthos]

Seriously why you we still arguing lol

Why did you make this thread? You don't have to tell me this argument is pointless because I know. Doesn't mean I don't derive enjoyment poking holes in faulty reasoning and clouded visions of the past.

You have your masochistic pursuits for more HNMs and I have my compulsion to post on internet forums. Seems like we both need an intervention.

[Habu]

Oh kind of goes against you're argument of wasting time and being productive. Poking holes in something eh? Yeah there's a better way to do that too.

[Zerich]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5cra4gyKr1rxmba4o1_400.gif

called the troll in the thread earlier.

coolgifbro

[Habu]

No you're just mad you don't fit into the elitest group that are HNMers. Stop having a life and join the darkside.

[Nala]

Holy crap... how is this still going on, HNMs were bad, they didnt award better players they awarded cheaters and those rich enough to indulge them, if you want a new HNM system considering ya'll miss the drama and competition the drops have to be worthwhile enough to get people to actually camp them.

You want HNMs back go petition SE for a vanilla server instead, oh wait a second NA launch 11 wasn't even truly vanilla considering we jumped in with RoZ so back to 50 cap days! thats where the true pros were. have fun claim botting roc, lumberjack and simurgh. I for one want no part in your lunacy, or masochism or is this sado-masichism since they both love the hurt and enjoy the hurting?

Also im 28 years old soon to be 29, i've given enough of my life to this game honestly im glad its casual friendly now, i used to play for hours on end every day and had absolutely no life, i do other things now, i have bigger responsibilities with my job ect. i dont have time for this retarded kind of BS nor do i care for it even if i did. there was nothing elite about buying/using the linkshell bot to beat out a claim even if you didn't personally use a bot you're delusional if you think no one in your LS did.

tl;dr Botting = Elite, Drama = Fun, Tears = Tasty, I like cutting my self for drama.

[Arcon]

Holy crap... how is this still going on [..]

Because people like you keep going, knowing that they'll never convince the other side no matter what they say, but still somehow think it's good to throw fuel on the fire. Every single reply in this thread was 100% predictable. This thread has been following the same formula as every other thinly veiled "casual" vs "hardcore" debate ever on these forums. No matter, a mod will delete the last few pages as they were nothing but insults and this thread, also like every other of this kind, will find a slow and quiet death. Which is probably for the better.

[Natenn]

HNMs were the best, anyone who says otherwise wouldn't be mad if they were the ones claiming. That was the hook of the hook of the game gor most, like i said at its highpoint XI had 500k+ players, now its dwindled down to 25k? 30k? a mere fraction of what it was. All that we have left are the dedicated hardcore FF fans and the casual base. Throw us some new sets of HQ/NQ HNM that spawned like SW/DI or at least in a bigger area then previous kings where botters could cramp up and all act on it. Like if it was just 1 zone as big ss Rolanberry, make it pop ANYWHERE in that zone and make it high enough lvl where you would need several ppl there just to hold it.

PS HNM >all

[Randwolf]

There's no difference cheating is cheating, if one form of a bot is wrong then every other form of it should be crucified just as much. Don't pick and choose what forms you want to scrutinize. Again no one if forcing anyone to camp, if you don't like the system then don't participate it's that simple. Stop talking about how it will effect you personally, it's your choice to do them or not.
Totally disagree with you here. Some cheats heavily impact my game enjoyment and some barely register as a blip.


.... your "i want it, and want no one else to have it" mentality.
btw. your last paragraph completely invalidates any further attempts to defend your viewpoint. but please, keep posting.
Did you even read the posts. He has said time and again that he has no problem if the drops also come from other sources.

p.s. - I did, and disliked immensely, HNM's. The one good thing was I could spend 29 minutes cleaning around the house then play for one minute. And, that was the totality of the positive aspects for me.

[Hercule]

p.s. - I did, and disliked immensely, HNM's. The one good thing was I could spend 29 minutes cleaning around the house then play for one minute. And, that was the totality of the positive aspects for me.

Or just the time to watch an anime like Naruto, One Piece, Bleach... etc

[Habu]

Read the last long post I made, I basically said that people don't worry about cheats that don't directly effect them etc

[Natenn]

ppl who couldn't claim are just being poor sports now, they couldn't have it so they don't want anyone else to have it bc they don't wanna have to put time into obtaining stuff.

[Alhanelem]

There's an awful lot of pot calling the kettle black in here.

[Habu]

Only thing I hated was the fucking 4am Nidhogg pops on the 7th window bullshit. World spawns can fuck off, I've got better shit to do and I served my time in Kings long enough.

Don't then? It wont be the end of the world

[FrankReynolds]

Don't then? It wont be the end of the world


You're ignoring the fact that these problems are in every known game. For every game there's a hack/cheat/bot no matter what the game is about. Complaining about is useless and pretty dumb, there's nothing SE nor any other company in the world can do about them.


Actually, there is something they can do... get rid of them... and they did.

As for your "you don't have to do it if you don't want to" argument, No, I don't have to do it... I can complain about it in your thread and make sure it never happens.

[Habu]

Yes because if SE wants to do something they are going to take actual feedback from some whiny people on a forum, gotcha.

[Benihana]

I for one am going to laugh so hard at all the whiney players once world spawn mechanics show their heads again.

That stuffs gonna be epic and hilarious

[Malphius]

As someone that used to camp 1~3hr NM's way back in the day for his gil, I understand what the OP is trying to convey. Figuring out how the NM popped and anticipating where and when it was going to pop to beat others to it, was a thrill. For me anyways.

Now, when we start talking about 21~24 or 3~7 day HNM's this is entirely another matter. Because I refuse to use bots or use my real money to purchase video game money, it was really hard for me to obtain the best of the best gear. Sitting at the oldschool HNM's required 0, ZERO skill what so ever.

[Natenn]

SW/DI had the correct idea

[Winrie]

Actually, there is something they can do... get rid of them... and they did.

As for your "you don't have to do it if you don't want to" argument, No, I don't have to do it... I can complain about it in your thread and make sure it never happens.

1. They didn't get rid of bots, bothered to look at say beaucidene lately? tons of fish bots, camped zipacna lately? lots of jp using clippers to go thru walls, Nyzul? lol. They didnt get rid of anything, and they wont, dying game needs money.

2. You can complain all you want, you have no power really over what happens or gets implemented, you do have an opinion though, and its stated so you can shut up now.

And @ the poster beforehand, yes Sandworm and Dark Ixion were very fun and different kind of HNM camps. More HNM like that need to be implemented. Promoted teamwork, communication, and competition.

[Hunewearl]

I will never understand why the people who make threads asking for the return of HNMs are the ones who were used as pawns and/or never got anything worthwhile.

I enjoyed HNMs back in the days, it was lot of fun, lot of not that fun too, but it was a good experience overall. That chapter is closed, I got everything from it back when it was relevant, I'm fine with it being burried in the past. I can understand the bitterness, people wanting to shine and so on, to step on others the way they were stepped on because they think that now they are in position to revert the roles.

Unfortunately guys, there is nobody left to care, even on BG. The atmosphere has changed too much, HNM wouldn't have the same feeling as it did, neither would anything from it be considered an achievement.

The gold age is long since gone, just remember this fondly.

TL;DR: nostalgia goggles and masochist fetish are cute things.

[Habu]

How persay am I a pawn? Going to love to hear this one.

[Hunewearl]

No, you are actually in the second category, the pawn part was directed toward someone else in this thread who linked a thread of his own, talking about the exact same thing. Though, he's well aware of his status and enjoys it, so it is not meant in a bad way, as I'm pretty sure a lot of people share his feelings.

[Hercule]

~~~~hi,~~~~

[FrankReynolds]

1. They didn't get rid of bots, bothered to look at say beaucidene lately? tons of fish bots, camped zipacna lately? lots of jp using clippers to go thru walls, Nyzul? lol. They didnt get rid of anything, and they wont, dying game needs money.

No, they didn't get rid of bots. They got rid of the NMs where bots were the biggest problems. I shouldn't have to explain that. The type of botting that goes on now rarely has any direct affect on other peoples enjoyment of the game. They got rid of the biggest nuisances.

2. You can complain all you want, you have no power really over what happens or gets implemented, you do have an opinion though, and its stated so you can shut up now.

Same goes for you, but we both know that your not going to shut up and neither am I.


And @ the poster beforehand, yes Sandworm and Dark Ixion were very fun and different kind of HNM camps. More HNM like that need to be implemented. Promoted teamwork, communication, and competition.

Those were botted too btw.

[newmonkey]

Oh do shut up! The game is in a dreadfull state look at last nights update absolutley nothing but garbage.

New world spawns hnms would be most welcome now, they really do need to bring them back and for all the people moaning simply don't do them, i myself hate voidwatch so guess what i don't do it and i certainly don't complain about it on here.

World spawn hnms to return!

[Benihana]

If they do return, Habu is the only one whowill be claiming them.

Because apparently, hes the only one whosbeen allowed to update.

:sadpandaface:

[Eastcrow]

Praises go out to Habu! HNM's, Camps, the days of old are greatly missed!!! You are not alone Habu many of my members that are still holding on remember and talk about these days..... The game has BEEN GIMPED! The game now is set up for all those crying ass ??????? that complain and complain about how they couldn't or get they gear like the legends that play more offen then a hour here and a hour there. This is my First post on NA forum so i'm going to let the Gimp crying ass ??????? have it! So many player and good ones left because of this change to FFXI and i'm sure it has cost SE. Now we are left with shit like everyone running around with Pink and Pearl gear.... LOL no words come to my mind but "Gimp" (When ever in time was there a Pink NINJA or a Pink THIEF? If there were they were Shot, Hung, and Stoned to Death) They gear has no value when you see someone that rarely plays and is wearing the same Gear or item you worked your ass off to gear and all other slots are 70 lvs under..... There needs to be separation!!!!!!! STOP Crying Gimp Fucks Play the game! And to sum up what i just said so the ppl that just started playing this game can understand: The Competition and thrill is no longer in FFXI because of lame ass ppl crying about how they cant (Kill or play well with others) LS's are not dead and no one runs home anymore to play, hoping to be next on the list to get that item you rarely see (Ridill, D-ring, HQ gear) I'm with you Habu! GRUDGE LS

[Camiie]

Oh do shut up! The game is in a dreadful state look at last nights update absolutely nothing but garbage.

Actually the update did bring back the feeling of HNM!

With the update you sit around doing other things instead of playing the game. With HNM you sit around doing other things instead of playing the game.

With the update you log-in and are kept from your goals by other players claiming server connections. With HNM you are kept from your goals by other players claiming the NM you're after.

With the update you have to rely on third party ingenuity to get a leg up on everyone else. With HNM you have to rely on third party "ingenuity" to get a leg up on everyone else.

So yeah, HNM style gameplay returned last night! SE answered your prayers, guys! Congratulations!

[Benihana]

Actually the update did bring back the feeling of HNM!

With the update you sit around doing other things instead of playing the game. With HNM you sit around doing other things instead of playing the game.

With the update you log-in and are kept from your goals by other players claiming server connections. With HNM you are kept from your goals by other players claiming the NM you're after.

With the update you have to rely on third party ingenuity to get a leg up on everyone else. With HNM you have to rely on third party "ingenuity" to get a leg up on everyone else.

So yeah, HNM style gameplay returned last night! SE answered your prayers, guys! Congratulations!



Oh...honey...

Where to begin.. ; ;

[Hunewearl]

Praises go out to Habu! HNM's, Camps, the days of old are greatly missed!!! You are not alone Habu many of my members that are still holding on remember and talk about these days..... The game has BEEN GIMPED! The game now is set up for all those crying ass ??????? that complain and complain about how they couldn't or get they gear like the legends that play more offen then a hour here and a hour there. This is my First post on NA forum so i'm going to let the Gimp crying ass ??????? have it! So many player and good ones left because of this change to FFXI and i'm sure it has cost SE. Now we are left with shit like everyone running around with Pink and Pearl gear.... LOL no words come to my mind but "Gimp" (When ever in time was there a Pink NINJA or a Pink THIEF? If there were they were Shot, Hung, and Stoned to Death) They gear has no value when you see someone that rarely plays and is wearing the same Gear or item you worked your ass off to gear and all other slots are 70 lvs under..... There needs to be separation!!!!!!! STOP Crying Gimp Fucks Play the game! And to sum up what i just said so the ppl that just started playing this game can understand: The Competition and thrill is no longer in FFXI because of lame ass ppl crying about how they cant (Kill or play well with others) LS's are not dead and no one runs home anymore to play, hoping to be next on the list to get that item you rarely see (Ridill, D-ring, HQ gear) I'm with you Habu! GRUDGE LSGrudge on Unicorn was indeed a legend, it made us laugh like no other.

I'm with you East, may you be the light that will guide us through the darkness on the way to the HNM resurrection.

[FrankReynolds]

Praises go out to Habu! HNM's, Camps, the days of old are greatly missed!!! You are not alone Habu many of my members that are still holding on remember and talk about these days..... The game has BEEN GIMPED! The game now is set up for all those crying ass ??????? that complain and complain about how they couldn't or get they gear like the legends that play more offen then a hour here and a hour there. This is my First post on NA forum so i'm going to let the Gimp crying ass ??????? have it! So many player and good ones left because of this change to FFXI and i'm sure it has cost SE. Now we are left with shit like everyone running around with Pink and Pearl gear.... LOL no words come to my mind but "Gimp" (When ever in time was there a Pink NINJA or a Pink THIEF? If there were they were Shot, Hung, and Stoned to Death) They gear has no value when you see someone that rarely plays and is wearing the same Gear or item you worked your ass off to gear and all other slots are 70 lvs under..... There needs to be separation!!!!!!! STOP Crying Gimp Fucks Play the game! And to sum up what i just said so the ppl that just started playing this game can understand: The Competition and thrill is no longer in FFXI because of lame ass ppl crying about how they cant (Kill or play well with others) LS's are not dead and no one runs home anymore to play, hoping to be next on the list to get that item you rarely see (Ridill, D-ring, HQ gear) I'm with you Habu! GRUDGE LS

I think your onto something. They should make new HNM Spawns... and they should drop gimp pink gear.

I think you guys need to find some new route to self esteem. Having the shiniest gear in FFXI isn't going to last forever.

[Camiie]

I think you guys need to find some new route to self esteem. Having the shiniest gear in FFXI isn't going to last forever.

Most of the people in this thread who have been the most vehement about wanting HNM, seem to carry a really negative vibe to say the least. The way they communicate on here is needlessly rude, condescending, arrogant, and especially grammatically incorrect. I can see why people like that enjoyed the "thrill" of HNM immensely. Heck, some have admitted getting off on the drama. The really sad part is, they almost have to be adults and they're still acting this way.

If the game no longer appeals to people that immature, I say we're much better off.

[Habu]

Except it's the complete opposite, all I've gotten since I made this thread is extremely harsh feedback and personal attacks against me and anyone who wants them back.

[Tamoa]

Those were botted too btw.


SW and DI can't really be botted - how can you bot a NM that can spawn in any of 6 (7 if after a maintenance) different zones, and have several possible pop spots or one fairly large pop area in each zone?

[Benihana]

SW and DI can't really be botted - how can you bot a NM that can spawn in any of 6 (7 if after a maintenance) different zones, and have several possible pop spots or one fairly large pop area in each zone?

You can use tools that can detect it's appearance in a zone.

That desn't hgelp you claim it, and most players who use that as an example are grasping at straws. DI/SW were typically dominated by non-third party using shells/group that had more massive numbers.

People who went into di/sw thinking they could use nasa and make consistant claim against competition usually went home empty handed.

DI/SW required you to focus for both holding and camping. Anyone who says otherwise is delusional and doesn't know wtf. I have over 600 kills each under my belt. Lol at people "botting" di/sw.

FP SCANNING is not botting and does not offer you a huge advantage against a huge number of scanners. The point is completely absurd.

[Tamoa]

Doesn't happen often, but I agree 100% with what you're saying there. ^

[Spiritreaver]

Except it's the complete opposite, all I've gotten since I made this thread is extremely harsh feedback and personal attacks against me and anyone who wants them back.

Can't speak for others, but i thought my posts were pretty level-headed.

[Dazusu]

seem to carry a really negative vibe to say the least.

That's rich coming from the "no police."

[cidbahamut]

That's rich coming from the "no police."

I don't think you understand that term.

[Habu]

Yay drama free now

[Catsby]

You can blame the concept of atmas and weakness !! for HNMs now. If the two were never as powerful as they are now then you might have bosses that still take a decent amount of cooperation and skill to kill.

[Winrie]

I think it's pretty clear what most of us want right now, no disrespect to the casuals but some of us want something more. To the people complaining about bots, don't fo the content if you dont wanna, it's simple. You all who object to the want of hnm return seem to assume you'll have to do it hands down 100%, first I'd like to note there's no hnm out, it's a suggestion, that's what forums are for, dry your tears, secondly I'd like to state back in the golden age lots of the top tier shit came from more casual done events such as limbus, dynamis and einherjar. Thus I don't see a reason for the bitching.


Btw I want a pink fafnir to fight gdi

[Catsby]

People don't know what the term "casual" means in games anymore. Also, I love the tags for the thread.

[Winrie]

IMO not to dis on anyone but if I'm paying my money irl to play a video game id rather it not be a casual game, but I'll play whatever is fun if it keep me entertained.

[Camiie]

I think it's pretty clear what most of us want right now,

Most of who? Most of the people for HNM in this thread or most of the FFXI population? I have doubts that most of the FFXI population wants what you do. I can't prove it, but it seems a safe assumption.


no disrespect to the casuals but some of us want something more.

That's not blatantly disrespectful, just underhandedly so. You want something different, but don't assume what you want is superior, deeper, or more valid.


To the people complaining about bots, don't fo the content if you dont wanna, it's simple.

It's not as simple as that. If the HNM crowd is out there botting gear it affects what happens outside of that content. The ill-gotten gear from HNM doesn't just vanish when you step outside the Aery. If you don't think that could have a ripple effect on the rest of the game in several ways, then you need to think about it a bit more. The botting and win-at-all-costs mentalities don't vanish when you step outside the Aery either.

[Habu]

Bots bots bot bot bots. Get over ittttttttt. QQ into your pillow more while I'm out killing all the Fafnirs. No really the bot conversation is getting old.

[Tamoa]

Also, OP already said it more than once that having the gear obtainable in a secondary way - like with Odin and kings abjurations - would be absolutely fine. So I really don't see the problem here and I have to admit I get the impression that the majority of those crying "omgbots", are probably people who either 1) never did hnms, 2) rarely claimed hnms/couldn't kill if they claimed, 3) never got anything they wanted when they did hnms because they were in shells where the leaders got everything and favouritism ruled. I might be wrong though, idk.

[Camiie]

I might be wrong though, idk.

You are. If I hadn't experienced all HNM had to offer I would have no reason to despise it.

[Habu]

Hi, I just wanted to say that HNM are the best thing that ever happened to FFXI, should bring them back no matter what!

[saevel]

Guys, he's trolling ya'll. Just ignore him. Turn around and walk away, we all know HNMs sucked due to the claiming system, no need to elaborate or debate that part. Heck you can still do "HNMs", just do the KSNM99 and get the pop item, there you now have your "HNM".

[Habu]

You're missing the part where you actually competed for the claim. I'm not trolling ftfy

[cidbahamut]

Hi, I just wanted to say that HNM are the best thing that ever happened to FFXI, should bring them back no matter what!

I can't tell if you're trolling or just plain crazy.

Even from the comfort of my armchair I can see quite clearly what HNMs constitute some of the worst game design in FFXI, which is saying a lot. Good on you for finding ways to enjoy it, but let's not pretend it was something it wasn't.

[Habu]

Rush of seeing a HNM pop until its claimed is the best adrenaline rush FFXI can give you. It can be related to doing a line, if you don't like HNMs that's on you, don't bring that nonsense of it sucking into this thread. What sucks to you and what sucks to me is different and doesn't me either way is a fact. So stop posting stupid shit like it is.

[Randwolf]

Rush of seeing a HNM pop until its claimed ...
Because of the congestion, a lot of people saw them as popping claimed.

On the flip side, I'm still not seeing the issue if all the HNM drops were found in other events. Well, other than the fact that it's something you don't like and thus, don't want someone else doing....Who let all the Republicans in here?

[Habu]

I think I've only ever seen a Nidhogg pop claimed once...back when there were 200 people in DA lol. I agree, I don't understand the hostility towards HNM if their drops also come from another location :(

[Randwolf]

I think I've only ever seen a Nidhogg pop claimed once...back when there were 200 people in DA lol. I agree, I don't understand the hostility towards HNM if their drops also come from another location :(
Part of it depends on your gaming system. I learned early on, you never, ever come to claim on an X-Box. Surprising, the PS2 was a good system for claiming. Before I moved to PC, I did a lot of NM claiming with that system. By the time I got into HNM's, I had already moved to PC. But, there were days with 70 people in the zone where it would appear to pop claimed.

[Habu]

Yeah up until around 2008 I played on PS2, I have played on XBOX but never took it to a camp because I had heard about how terrible the lag is with it. On my computer though even with 50+ there I've never had a problem with seeing a mob spawn though ;x

[saevel]

This will be my last post in this thread as I don't want to give this guy anymore fuel.

He is talking to his friends and laughing at each and every one of the posters in this thread. Before anyone else decides to try to debate / argue with this guy, just remember he's sitting back laughing at you with his friends. That's not even his real character, it's a mule or alt. If everyone cease's discussion with him he'll go away.

[TLGrunt]

*Slowly come into the forum with a bullet proof vest on*... I am pro-HNM.. -> BUT <- and bare with me as i say this, what i found thrilling about HNMs is it's this world wide "event" that is out of a player's control to trigger, good examples are besieges and campaign battles where areas are attacked at will per enemy actions. Even tho they just pop out of thin air ,lol, i enjoyed fighting a super NM that apears on occasion, even though its on a timer. So i guess where im going with this is how about we have world spawns, with <place alotted spawn time> untill a nm appears, but make it a conflict style like campaign where people can drop in and out of the fray, like an untimely invasion or a HNM who just wants to kick players asses and run wild, spoil distribution?, Have us gain a type of currneny we can use for gear. So i guess im suggsting a campaign v2 but with a more HNM dedicated twist. This could be a itch that can be scratched for both hardcore and casual players if done right, if the idea sounds good id like to post it as op but it seems like a nice mid-way point between casual and hardcore what u think?

[TLGrunt]

And yeh it lacks competition because you join in and drop out, but for the sake of giving this stale game some life, we need more fond memories of a giant NM eating our faces but together as a server we prevailed lol. Look at some of the servers track records for besieged win streaks, and look how popular besieged was back then, we didnt pop that army of deadly trolls and sexy beastmen females, they came in to AU wanting our floating power ball for their own gain, so we kicked their ass together so they dont kidnap our chocobo vendor.. HNMs dnt have to be a snooze fest that has to take hours of our day of sitting on our hands for a slim chance of cussing unholy words at botters and rivals we wished would die who claimed the NM and flick us off for drama sake. So neo-HNMs ftw imo without the omg /wrist claim system.

[Hercule]

This will be my last post in this thread as I don't want to give this guy anymore fuel.

He is talking to his friends and laughing at each and every one of the posters in this thread. Before anyone else decides to try to debate / argue with this guy, just remember he's sitting back laughing at you with his friends. That's not even his real character, it's a mule or alt. If everyone cease's discussion with him he'll go away.

You talk about Habu (Bechyne)?
He is in my LS I can tell you its not a fake account,
There is even an IRL pics of him in Okiru FFXIAH account, and i dont really wanted him back in our LS but finally he is not as bad as it :)

[Zerich]

You talk about Habu (Bechyne)?
He is in my LS I can tell you its not a fake account,
There is even an IRL pics of him in Okiru FFXIAH account, and i dont really wanted him back in our LS but finally he is not as bad as it :)

doesn't want someone in ls..."not bad"

huh?

[Hercule]

If you look the picture in Okiru ffxiah account you will understand about what i talked,
Sorry for my "French" English :p
*(Bad, I mean malicious/crook maybe better appropriate terms)

No matter, we need HNMs back for the good of FFXI,
I really dont understand the problem with people that dont want them,
And i total agree with this:


Rush of seeing a HNM pop until its claimed is the best adrenaline rush FFXI can give you.

[Benihana]

new world HNMs yes plz^^

[Meyi]

Guess you're all just too casual to understand

Edit: Just tired of mobs where all you have to do is proc > kill or pop a brew.

Ahaha, this reminded me of the whole hipster phase. "You're all just too mainstream to understand."

I'd rather proc (strategic interaction) > kill than wait for 3 hours and every 30 minutes spam /ja "Provoke" <stnpc> in hopes of beating someone else (and their bot) to claiming a monster. Then let's add in the fact that proc > kill monsters have high drop rates (HNM Kings had low drop rates), took less people, and could be done whenever I wanted to go rather than waiting every 21~24 hours Earth time.

[Benihana]

I just truly think the mechanic of very rare spawn monsters is a neat one. It's not aall about the drops. Ever since i was lv1 hume, running into a rare spawned monster was amazing.

I may seem like kind of rude, but i try to be a NICE PLAYER who has common sense hen im not trolling.

The game should not, and does not revolve around one type of player.

The mechanic of rare spawns has been around since the dawn of ffxi, no one really has any ground to complain about what was a core game mechanic for 8 entire YEARS, and keep playing.

I don't think its fair though that elite pieces revolve around nm that only spawn once every 24-120hrs.

The return of the rare spawn mechanic should return, it offers a lot of fun and sport for a certain group. I do however think, drops should be limited to luxury only. Heralds gaiters, dark ixion/sw gear, khimaira gear is good example of what is fair and justified in a drop system for a rare NM.

limiting the absolute best slot to kings, was not good. I remember when i first got to kings, it as so crazy. everyone desperate for dalmaticaand ebody(dalmatica was the only refresh body that allowed the usage of headgear at the time.)

The idea that people sat around and botted,khim,cerb,tia,ixion,sw, is ludicris. Those nms have such a wide variety of spawn window and locations, at best you had people using programs to call out pops or alert groups. Very rarely did people sit around actually botting for claiming on them. For sw/di, botting is completley useless.

the reason some are against world spawns is not because its really an issue of botting or cheating. Thats a moot point theyre using as a scapegoat. Physically competiting for drops is quite simply, out of alot of players ability. his is due to time/caring/trying.

The mechanic of competing for rare nms or competiting at all for drops is appealing because it offers an exclusivity in ffxi that is foreign to a larger amount of people. People with jobs or people who have to focus or care. People like myself, who have more free time and care more, tend to try and play more. Thats my advantage over the average joe.

I specifically want to aim for things that offer me a bit of individuality. That's my preference, and as a 9 YEAR final fantasy xi subscriber quit/took break 2-4 times), i can say without a doubt camping and playing with and for world notorious monsters has been the center of what i did in ffxi.

Without the mechanic of world spawn or notorious monsters in the free world, or the idea of hunting something, i believe ffxi should be abyssea-related perma.

For me, it takes either the rarest/exclusive content to keep me interested or the complete opposite, something i can accomplish and do w.o needing anyone but my husband and our mule army.

VW, AND EVERY SINGLE OTHER CONTENT THEY HAVE ADDED since abyssea does not appeal to myself or players unlike me. SE needs to decide what ffxi will revolve around and they cannot have it both ways.

I think ffxi should always revolve around world notorious monsters or camps in some way, Thats what interests me personally,and i think that game mechanic offers alot to endgame, which is very instanced based alone.

Middle ground is simply, not exciting or entertaining enough for me. They need to either take endgame back to a similiar focus that was of 75, or keep us in an abyssea-esque ffxi.

The reason I think they don't want to do abyssea-esque is because no one will do casual like wow and the other mmos. FFXI will not compete well in that market, it needs some individuality to stay afloat. The trick of the trade that comes with catering to casual players,(im both casual and uncasual, all depends on the content and its value) is that when you stop feeding them tat content, it dies down very quickly. The "replay"value is so low.

You can stick 5 21-120hr pop hnms or add something super depressing like salvage with luxury items and ppl will fight over them for years and years and years and years and years and the same people will never ask for more content. VW is a botched example. VW is so unexciting (unlike hnms or something like salvage) people LITERALLY quit after 0/500 or so. The gear isnt the only issue.

It needs to be a rush. It needs to be exciting and fun. If it cant be fun, it needs to be a rush, if i cant be a rush, it needs to be fun.

The fact is, there is no room for middle ground imo in ffxi endgame, if the game is to last. They need to either completely appeal to abyssea crowd or appeal to people who want to compete, beat and feel accomplished.

[Randwolf]

The game should not, and does not revolve around one type of player....SE needs to decide what ffxi will revolve around and they cannot have it both ways....The fact is, there is no room for middle ground imo in ffxi endgame, if the game is to last. They need to either completely appeal to abyssea crowd or appeal to people who want to compete, beat and feel accomplished....I think ffxi should always revolve around world notorious monsters or camps in some way, Thats what interests me personally
Well, which way is it? One type of player needs to be appeased or both or just you?


I don't think its fair though that elite pieces revolve around nm that only spawn once every 24-120hrs....The return of the rare spawn mechanic should return, it offers a lot of fun and sport for a certain group. I do however think, drops should be limited to luxury only. Heralds gaiters, dark ixion/sw gear, khimaira gear is good example of what is fair and justified in a drop system for a rare NM.
That is your take on what should be exclusive. And, that is why the majority don't want to see their return. If all the drops occurred in other places than the HNM's, then I could get behind it. But, again, if it's going this way, then no.


The idea that people sat around and botted,khim,cerb,tia,ixion,sw, is ludicris. Those nms have such a wide variety of spawn window and locations, at best you had people using programs to call out pops or alert groups. Very rarely did people sit around actually botting for claiming on them. For sw/di, botting is completley useless.
khim,cerb,tia...Pretty sure that those popped in a fairly limited area. And for SW/DI, people still had programs they used to assist them that allowed them to have less people across the zones. While not as big a deal, it still shows that people will break the TOS to claim these things.


the reason some are against world spawns is not because its really an issue of botting or cheating. Thats a moot point theyre using as a scapegoat. Physically competiting for drops is quite simply, out of alot of players ability. his is due to time/caring/trying.
Because some people fall into this category, does not mean all people fall into this category. Nice attempt to paint everyone who does not like these with the same brush.


The mechanic of competing for rare nms or competiting at all for drops is appealing because it offers an exclusivity in ffxi that is foreign to a larger amount of people. People with jobs or people who have to focus or care. People like myself, who have more free time and care more, tend to try and play more. Thats my advantage over the average joe.
Having Free Time ≠ Being Skilled

I feel like you meandered all over the place in that post. Also, it's pretty obvious that S/E has shunned the HNM crowd. So saying they should not only add this back in but then cater to it, will not happen. S/E is not going to exclusively appeal to a population in the game which is currently in a very small minority. And, because there are many more visually snazzy options out there, new people who are interested in HNM's are not suddenly going to flock to the game if they go this route. So, demanding the 'all or nothing' route is a failed campaign.

[Benihana]

Well, which way is it? One type of player needs to be appeased or both or just you?


That is your take on what should be exclusive. And, that is why the majority don't want to see their return. If all the drops occurred in other places than the HNM's, then I could get behind it. But, again, if it's going this way, then no.


khim,cerb,tia...Pretty sure that those popped in a fairly limited area. And for SW/DI, people still had programs they used to assist them that allowed them to have less people across the zones. While not as big a deal, it still shows that people will break the TOS to claim these things.


Because some people fall into this category, does not mean all people fall into this category. Nice attempt to paint everyone who does not like these with the same brush.


Having Free Time ≠ Being Skilled

I feel like you meandered all over the place in that post. Also, it's pretty obvious that S/E has shunned the HNM crowd. So saying they should not only add this back in but then cater to it, will not happen. S/E is not going to exclusively appeal to a population in the game which is currently in a very small minority. And, because there are many more visually snazzy options out there, new people who are interested in HNM's are not suddenly going to flock to the game if they go this route. So, demanding the 'all or nothing' route is a failed campaign.

I was just expressing my opinion.

I never said the game should revolve around the mechanic, I said it should be included and encouraged. Its part of a specific type of endgame that appeals to some. My opinion on the state of ffxi endgame atm is simply, the only thing missing is that mechanic. It's no different now, than it was at 75.

Heres a question, did you ever even fight or camp cerb,khim,tia ? Cause you said to your knowledge... Doesn't sound like you know wtf when it comes to them. Nobody was sitting around botting them unless they popped really late in window. Again, you are delusional if you think otherwise. lol...

[Randwolf]

Doesn't sound like you know wtf when it comes to them. Nobody was sitting around botting them unless they popped really late in window. Again, you are delusional if you think otherwise. lol...
Yes, I did camp them. We did them less than Nid, KB, Aspi. But, we did them. Let me clear that up for you. "Unless you know of some magical place they spawn that I didn't know about, then the pop in a relatively small area." Better? It's so hard to convey sarcasm and derision in a forum post.

And, you just contradicted yourself, AGAIN. First you say no one uses bots on those. And, then they only use them if it was a late window. Do you even read your own posts before you post them? But, that is the attitude that people don't want to return. "Oh yeah, we used a bot because it was out of our region's window. And, that's why we killed it so slow the past few times. We were trying to keep it in our region's window."

The more you talk, the more it is apparent that in no way should these things ever return.

[Benihana]

Yes, I did camp them. We did them less than Nid, KB, Aspi. But, we did them. Let me clear that up for you. "Unless you know of some magical place they spawn that I didn't know about, then the pop in a relatively small area." Better? It's so hard to convey sarcasm and derision in a forum post.

And, you just contradicted yourself, AGAIN. First you say no one uses bots on those. And, then they only use them if it was a late window. Do you even read your own posts before you post them? But, that is the attitude that people don't want to return. "Oh yeah, we used a bot because it was out of our region's window. And, that's why we killed it so slow the past few times. We were trying to keep it in our region's window."

The more you talk, the more it is apparent that in no way should these things ever return.

Poor guy. You really aren't very good at reading comprehension are you?


I'm standing by my statement that most of the time, it was only kings that were abused with third party tools. The more you talk, the more clear it is, you don't know wtf.

[Habu]

Just got word that HNMs are indeed coming back.

[Randwolf]

Poor guy. You really aren't very good at reading comprehension are you?


I'm standing by my statement that most of the time, it was only kings that were abused with third party tools. The more you talk, the more clear it is, you don't know wtf.
Actually, it's more along the line of you not writing very clearly. With all your free time and no HNM's to bot, you might consider taking a class or two.

p.s. - "The idea that people sat around and botted,khim,cerb,tia,ixion,sw, is ludicris." They did or they didn't.

[Benihana]

Actually, it's more along the line of you not writing very clearly. With all your free time and no HNM's to bot, you might consider taking a class or two.

Somebody is MAYAAAADDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

[Randwolf]

Somebody is MAYAAAADDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
Nope, just amazed that some people think they are making a coherent argument when it is anything but.

[Benihana]

Just got word that HNMs are indeed coming back.

Whered you see this information?

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5ofpy7zO81qcwic6.gif

[FrankReynolds]

If you have a Bot for other NMs and your camping an NM... why the hell wouldn't you use the Bot? That's just retarded. This thread gets dumber and dumbererer.

[svengalis]

I'll assume you probably never really efficiently claimed HNMs before so you've probably never experienced the thrill of claiming one way back when. People actually took pride in the gear they obtained then because it actually took some effort to get it. It adds a sense of competition that the game is lacking in an endgame setting not including PvP. What's the difference from sitting at a camp waiting for a NM pop rather than sitting in Port Jeuno waiting for a VW shout? Nothing. Yes you could make a VW party but in the time it takes to fill the party, organize jobs, and kill that set it would equal the 3 hours you spent at a camp. Did you miss the part where I mentioned 21-24 hours HNMs and last time I checked Tiamat was a 48 hour NM.

The big difference is with VW you're gauranteed to attempt to kill it after taking "3 hours" to set up that alliance.

[Rosina]

ok I'm not reading the hole thread.
I want hnm, but i feel long cool downs are idiotic.

my question and i've asked this over all 3 threads now

why do hnm NEED to be set on a 24hr+ timer?
I do not want any opinion just answer the question.

[FrankReynolds]

ok I'm not reading the hole thread.
I want hnm, but i feel long cool downs are idiotic.

my question and i've asked this over all 3 threads now

why do hnm NEED to be set on a 24hr+ timer?
I do not want any opinion just answer the question.

They want them at 24+ hour pops to keep the gear extremely rare. The obvious problem being that it is rather lame to make content that only %1 of the people paying for the game can do due to the incredibly long spawn window.

[Rosina]

They want them at 24+ hour pops to keep the gear extremely rare. The obvious problem being that it is rather lame to make content that only %1 of the people paying for the game can do due to the incredibly long spawn window.

they do reasile SE well not add it as ythat is NOT a good enough reason too.

even my hardcore arse don't want that bs waiting for crap to happen is dull.

you can make gear rare by other means, like via a huge point system.
timers are so jacked it ant funny.

[FrankReynolds]

they do reasile SE well not add it as ythat is NOT a good enough reason too.

even my hardcore arse don't want that bs waiting for crap to happen is dull.

you can make gear rare by other means, like via a huge point system.
timers are so jacked it ant funny.

I agree. That's why I'm against adding world spawn HNMs.

[Winrie]

they do reasile SE well not add it as ythat is NOT a good enough reason too.

even my hardcore arse don't want that bs waiting for crap to happen is dull.

you can make gear rare by other means, like via a huge point system.
timers are so jacked it ant funny.

I didnt REASILE you worked for SE and could tell us beforehand what they will add/not add, and what they find to be good/bad reasons. Secondly you needa relax a little. I dont want 21+ hour windows anymore cause i simply cannot do it anymore. I do agree with a massive point system like NM event. But really, the screaming about HNM is getting old, its on like 3 threads, and both sides whine and troll the other each time, youre never going to agree, stfu already about it and agree to disagree. The age level of most posters on this topic is age 3, grow up a little, its unbecoming and not helpful to forum suggestions and for SE to gain ideas for us. In the end they will add what they feel will generate more money, be it no HNM or HNM, just deal with that, state your idea/opinion and move on.

[Zerich]

I didnt REASILE you worked for SE

I hope you're under the legal subscription age for this game/forum. You should be ashamed.

[Demon6324236]

I hope you're under the legal subscription age for this game/forum. You should be ashamed.

Realize. Realise. Reasile. Rea_i_e. The missing letters were likely accidentally swapped while typing, and as such is an easy mistake when typing in a hurry, or typing quickly in general.

[Karbuncle]

Realize. Realise. Reasile. Rea_i_e. The missing letters were likely accidentally swapped while typing, and as such is an easy mistake when typing in a hurry, or typing quickly in general.

I type quickly and in a hurry, But i don't think i've ever swapped letters, My fingers kwon better.

[Zerich]

Realize. Realise. Reasile. Rea_i_e. The missing letters were likely accidentally swapped while typing, and as such is an easy mistake when typing in a hurry, or typing quickly in general.

it takes a special kind of RETURD to misspell an all-caps word.

[Demon6324236]

Then you can be picky and insult people for mistakes in typing, cool for you.

[Rekin]

it takes a special kind of RETURD to misspell an all-caps word.

Arguing semantics of proper spelling and grammar shouldn't be the focus of the topic. If you have an issue with a person's ability to properly convey their message bring it up with them personally.

As for Winrie's actual message conveyed through their post:
Yes this is true, at this point both sides of the argument have brought up what could influence SE's decision on whether or not timed spawned HNMs may return. Most argued for the sake of creating "hardcore" content in which only few could participate while others argued that such a way of presenting HNMs could see a return of third party tools. I've tried my hand in the topic by discussing whether or not the return of such content would effect the game and SE's image to the public as I feel this is the core source for driving SE's final decision. As it stands I cannot see a positive reaction from the player base if timed HNMs return. From what we've learned of SoA I'm highly inclined to see the new HNMs as part of instanced battlefields very much like some of the dungeons they've planned out for the expansion. Just seems logical.

[Zerich]

Then you can be picky and insult people for mistakes in typing, cool for you.

change your main to PLD.

[Demon6324236]

change your main to PLD.

Don't like PLD.

[Zerich]

Don't like PLD.

I don't like PLD.*

[Trisscar]

change your main to PLD.

Mind if I ask why you keep telling them this?

[Demon6324236]

change your main to PLD.

The letter C is not capitalized. Do you really wanna be a 2 year old and play this little game Zeri?

[Demon6324236]

Mind if I ask why you keep telling them this?

Because I am a RDM who melees, I have TP sets, made Almace for RDM, and have almost finished my Excalibur for RDM. Being a RDM who melees and DDs is a sin, so I am told to cleanse my soul of evil by changing to a more accepted job.

[Habu]

Because I am a RDM who melees

Terrible, just terrible

[Trisscar]

Because I am a RDM who melees, I have TP sets, made Almace for RDM, and have almost finished my Excalibur for RDM. Being a RDM who melees and DDs is a sin, so I am told to cleanse my soul of evil by changing to a more accepted job.

If you can make it work in an efficient maner I don't see the problem with melee Red Mages. Wish more people would put the effort into it, honestly.

[Demon6324236]

Terrible, just terrible

Yeah it is terrible, people don't understand that about the only line between RDM and SCH is RDM has the ability to melee and spells to do so while SCH excels in magic in basically every other way over RDM.

[Demon6324236]

If you can make it work in an efficient maner I don't see the problem with melee Red Mages. Wish more people would put the effort into it, honestly.

As do I, the community's overbearing opinion that RDM can not melee leaves the impression on people both new and old that it is completely impossible to do with any efficiency, however due to new gear released for the job, and Temper/Gain-spells, the jobs melee power is actually somewhat good.

[Karbuncle]

Its not that RDM Can't melee... Its just that can't melee well. On a scale of effective Melee, RDM is Below THF and slightly above SMN and BLM.

And I honestly put forth the challenge a SMN Melee could Out-DD a RDM Melee if you consider their Avatar's output, Because Shattersoul is beastly.

[Habu]

No no, you must include the fast that they can also use enspells to maximize their damage output...

[Zerich]

I'm asking you to change to PLD, because it's the closest job in-game that reflects your White Knight, viewpoints.
Also, enlight will beat the shit out of your en-spells.

[Demon6324236]

No no, you must include the fast that they can also use enspells to maximize their damage output...

Which sounds like Fupafighter's idea that for some reason a RDM would/should melee using enspells and kraken club as its form of DPS, not sure why people have this idea.

As for RDMs not meleeing well I disagree, not that my opinion matters anyways.

[cidbahamut]

Could we not turn this into a melee RDM thread? We already have an entire sub-forum for that.

[Trisscar]

Could we not turn this into a melee RDM thread? We already have an entire sub-forum for that.

Agreed, so here's a post more on topic, and is an actual suggestion:

Why not have a multi-tier monster that requires special conditions (like it can only be spawned in weather/day matching its aligned element, for example) and also can't be spawned again by anyone in the alliance for (say) 3 real life days (where as the ??? Respawns after 15 minutes)?

Would make using bots pointless, and it makes more sense than reinstating the old HNM system.

[Karbuncle]

As for RDMs not meleeing well I disagree, not that my opinion matters anyways.

If you have proof and math, two things that go hand in hand, to back up your claims, your opinion matters very much.

Even back during the great RDM Melee thread of 2010, I always supported the idea of RDM meleeing, and I hoped someone would bring some math or evidence forth to support its viability. I was hoping there would be 1 RDM who could Melee, Enfeeble, Cure/etc and do his jobs to the best function and participate and provide proof of concept for the idea RDM Could melee and still do their job effectively.

It never came.

Be that guy. - But post it in the RDM melee Forum i guess. Crappy Outdated Content is serious business (HNMs I mean)

[Trisscar]

Agreed, so here's a post more on topic, and is an actual suggestion:

Why not have a multi-tier monster that requires special conditions (like it can only be spawned in weather/day matching its aligned element, for example) and also can't be spawned again by anyone in the alliance for (say) 3 real life days (where as the ??? Respawns after 15 minutes)?

Would make using bots pointless, and it makes more sense than reinstating the old HNM system.

So how would this work? A lot like ZNM, actually.

Now, someone on the boards have made the claim that Square wants to introduce elemental Wyrms as the end game for SoA. I haven't seen any references backing up this claim, but to explain how this works I'll accept it as being factual.

The player is told there are Wyrms that live in the area, and are told that these venerable beings are regarded as to being god-like. So there is a certain ritual if one wishes an audience with one. First you need an offering (which is combined from the trophies of other NM), then they need to take it to the region where their element holds domain and on their summoning day. But they will only appear if you have an appropriately sized procession (meaning you need a minninum of 18 people in your alliance), and you are warned that the Wyrms are not the play things of the whims of mortal kind (meaning you can't summon it again for another 3 days, win lose or draw), and further the Wyrms may quickly become bored and leave (you have a time limit of two hours to beat it or it flies off).

[Nala]

Edit: nevermind think i misread something.