I know it's been said but... [Archive]

Xerius

06-08-2012, 10:11 AM

I think more attention should try to be brought to the Last Stand point that has already been made.

It seems to me that THF's C+ in Marksmanship is been thrown to the wayside. Especially, so when compared to SAM's C+ in Archery. At level 75 having your best ammo that you could use being level 50 wasn't really that bad but now when your best ammo that you can possibly equip is around level 50. Well, that's just plain embarrassing. I don't see COR or RNG being left out of the daggers. And SAM isn't being left out of Bow's or Arrows. SAM even has access to the Relic bow and when was the last time you even saw a SAM using a bow? That's not my point though. My point is that if a SAM wanted to use a decent bow/arrow they could and they have the exact same skill for bow as THF does for Marksmanship and they have the exact same amount of use for a bow as THF does. If you're not going to give THF a viable option for using Last Stand then you might as well remove THF from the list and give us the option to merit something that's actually worth meriting.

Delvish

06-08-2012, 03:19 PM

Llana_Virren

06-08-2012, 03:25 PM

As an avid SAM/RNG, I must intrude by saying bow upgrades have been somewhat lacking in their own right as I have addressed in my thread on Samurai Archery.

However, THF Marksmanship is hurting even more. Gunwise they have the Handgonne, first and only upgrade since LVL 72 Coffinmaker but can only use Lvl 50 Gold and Platinum Bullets. They do have access to Cannons but that is a very expensive alternative and dated too. THF marksmanship was primarily focused on crossbow anyway, and is sorely lacking there too. The Darkwing is low damage low delay and level 77, but bolts are still the lvl 20s status bolts.

I understand keeping the bolts, as the status inflictions are still quite effective, but virtually everywhere else, THF is due for an upgrade. New bolts would always be welcome too (Drain II perhaps?). I wouldn't go so far as to eliminate Marksmanship solely because we can't use Last Stand effectively though. As I mentioned, many still use status bolts quite effectively. Personally, I'm cheap though so I stick to Raiders Boomerang.

THF marksmanship is primarily about using bolts to add effects; not to be a primary source of damage. However, I agree that it should be improved upon.

At a minimum, a new line of bolts are in order, even if they repeat the same status ailments, they should come with a higher DMG raitng then their Lv40-and-below counterparts. Skill and AGI/INT? affecting the additional effects, etc etc....

Optionally, new Crossbows would be welcomed, but I think that THF is designed to primarily deal direct damage to mobs, so I don't think "too much" emphasis should be placed on the ranged attack aspect.

Xerius

06-10-2012, 09:21 AM

[QUOTE=Delvish;323695]As an avid SAM/RNG, I must intrude by saying bow upgrades have been somewhat lacking in their own right as I have addressed in my thread on Samurai Archery./QUOTE]

I do apologize for my ignorance. I did not thoroughly look into how SAM archery had progressed I only took a brief glance at it and used it as an example but thank you for clarifying it for me and for the post. =D

Ophannus

06-13-2012, 04:59 AM

I want level 90 versions of Acid/Sleep/Blood bolts(Maybe 18% Defense Down/Longer Sleep/1.5-2.0x Blood Bolt potency). I always like using Xbow on THF for 99% of events(I figure the acid bolt proc adds more to not only the THF's DPS but also everyone else's DPS than 3% DW from boomerang would)

Okipuit

06-29-2012, 07:55 AM

Washburn

06-29-2012, 08:17 AM

As some of you mentioned, the original purpose of arrows and bolts for thief was not to deal high damage but to be able to impair enemies with the additonal effects. This is the reason why a higher level set of bolts/arrows was not added for thief.

So we gave them guns then shitty bullets to tease them.

THF was given Last Stand as an option, soooo, how about lets use it.

Milva

06-29-2012, 08:17 AM

There is a whole job called "Red Mage", whose ability to "impair enemies" is pointless in current game environment and shunned from all endgame activities. And it has debuffs much stronger in comparison to sleep/blind/poison lasting 10s from weak bolts.

tl;dr: THF marksmanship is useless. Fix it, please.

Helel

06-29-2012, 09:04 AM

so why do they get access to culverin...?

Washburn

06-29-2012, 11:52 AM

Culverin /+1 is decent. But handgonne is better, except youre stuck using lv 50 bullets. If the could have access to better ammo, last stand would be a viable option for a weapon skill.

Babekeke

06-29-2012, 03:01 PM

Culverin /+1 is decent. But handgonne is better, except youre stuck using lv 50 bullets. If the could have access to better ammo, last stand would be a viable option for a weapon skill.

Last Stand IS a viable option for a weaponskill, BUT it's so situational that I eventually scrapped it and went for H2H instead.

I really enjoyed spamming last stand on the eye mob in konschat [A] that takes no damage from melee. TP on the adds then WS the boss, or just tp with /ra on the boss. I only ever used it with xbow though, so damage would have been much greater with a gun, but I wasn't going to carry stacks of cannon shells around with me, and only 7 Handgonnes and 0 +1s have sold on AH so far on Phoenix.

1 fix that would REALLY help, is simply allowing Cannon shells to stack to 99 and/or be pouchable.

Helel

06-30-2012, 05:50 AM

Culverin /+1 is decent. But handgonne is better, except youre stuck using lv 50 bullets. If the could have access to better ammo, last stand would be a viable option for a weapon skill.

Are you serious?

Handgonne +1 is Iron bullet (55) + handgonne +1 (48).

Culverin +1 is cannon shell (90) + culverin +1 (51). Culverin +1 also has 20 ranged attack.

Not only do the bullets have 35 higher base damage, but the gun has higher base damage as well. The delay is irrelevant considering you will still be meleeing for tp. Culverin destroys handgonne +1; it's not even remotely close.

Urteil

06-30-2012, 06:33 AM

What about new bolts for Thief with additional enfeebling effects?

Such as silence bolts on par with the already existing Kabura Arrows?

RygaenYuui

06-30-2012, 11:01 AM

What about new bolts for Thief with additional enfeebling effects?

Such as silence bolts on par with the already existing Kabura Arrows? Seriously. This is a great idea. If you can believe this much: I currently swap between Ziska's and Failnaught depending on which de-buff I need. (Sad, but that's how I have to juggle it sometimes...)

Apart from those people who don't use bolts at all since they main Raider's Boomerang (...'Cuz I think Bomb Core is obsolete these days), A well landed Acid/Sleep/Blind/Drain bolt helps. It'd be nice to even see a Potency added to the effect.

Rustic

12-13-2012, 12:56 AM

As folks have noted- yeah, THF has those status bolts for debuffing mobs.

It'd be child's play to introduce versions of those with more of a punch, along with bullets. Even if they're shooting the equivalent of D:75-80 range with an L85 requirement for bullets and D:40 or so versions of the status bolts, it'd be an improvement. After all, THF can still shoot arrows up to L80 or so along with everyone else, while the RNG/COR domain seems to be anything from L89+. Slipping in the upgrades just below that would not only give more happy crafters (hello, bigger market for better marksmanship stuff) but happy THF's peppering targets with something different than the dinky acid bolts they started using 70 levels prior.

Seriously. How much of your L15 gear do YOU use at L85? :)

Likewise, new crossbows/guns in the L85 range. Again, it's still a step down from RNG/COR gear, but there's a gap there as well.

Mirage

12-13-2012, 01:36 AM

As some of you mentioned, the original purpose of arrows and bolts for thief was not to deal high damage but to be able to impair enemies with the additonal effects. This is the reason why a higher level set of bolts/arrows was not added for thief.

You don't need to bring a THF's ranged abilities up to the level of a ranger or a corsair. There's still a lot of room for improvements. If you want the purpose of ranged attacks by thieves to be to inflict status effects, then you should also consider giving thf a few new types of ammo. Silence bolts would be nice, for example, as would slightly more potent bloody bolts be. Perhaps also attack-lowering bolts would be nice to have, or even (gasp) dispel bolts!

In the case of dispel bolts, I realize you might think it is overpowered to be able to dispel almost non-stop. Perhaps the bolts should have a high delay, and the effect should perhaps not have the highest magic accuracy in the world. I do think that getting a dispel proc around 33% of the time would be all right, though. Firing bolts isn't free (and dispel bolts might be expensive to make too!), and doing several ranged attacks in a row lowers damage output significantly. Additionally, we wouldn't be able to use stat-boosting ammo such as raider's boomerang or other non-usable ammo pieces without losing all our TP whenever switching to a crossbow.

Rustic

12-15-2012, 12:19 AM

You don't need to bring a THF's ranged abilities up to the level of a ranger or a corsair. There's still a lot of room for improvements. If you want the purpose of ranged attacks by thieves to be to inflict status effects, then you should also consider giving thf a few new types of ammo. Silence bolts would be nice, for example, as would slightly more potent bloody bolts be. Perhaps also attack-lowering bolts would be nice to have, or even (gasp) dispel bolts!

Just remember, any new effect we're giving to THF with bolts, we're giving to RNG as well in the process. Being able to pepper targets with dispel effects is a rather potent boost, considering being able to steal effects is a significant ability for higher level THFs. Adding silencer bolts isn't going to expand Ranger abilities, though- and that's a good idea. ATK down wouldn't be bad either. I vote making them pepper-spray style. :)

Nebo

12-15-2012, 01:12 AM

considering being able to steal effects is a significant ability for higher level THFs.

If only that were true.

Mirage

12-15-2012, 02:54 AM

Just remember, any new effect we're giving to THF with bolts, we're giving to RNG as well in the process. Being able to pepper targets with dispel effects is a rather potent boost, considering being able to steal effects is a significant ability for higher level THFs. Adding silencer bolts isn't going to expand Ranger abilities, though- and that's a good idea. ATK down wouldn't be bad either. I vote making them pepper-spray style. :)
Well, if the dispel bolts, as i mentioned, had really really bad dps, it wouldn't be that much of an issue. I don't think ranger is an overpowered job either, is it? And if it really would be overpowered to give rangers dispel bolts, make them unequippable by rangers.

Rustic

12-15-2012, 06:07 AM

If only that were true.

Operative word: Considered. Players naturally have a different point of view, no? I'm saying that if the devs think "Hey, they can steal buffs anyway", a simple method of removing them via bolt spam might not go over too well.

Well, if the dispel bolts, as i mentioned, had really really bad dps, it wouldn't be that much of an issue. I don't think ranger is an overpowered job either, is it? And if it really would be overpowered to give rangers dispel bolts, make them unequippable by rangers.

If the dispel bolts have cruddy DPS, it's not a big deal- swapping ammo doesn't reduce TP, so as soon as they're done dispelling, back to the regular ammo, just like if I was swapping in a blind or acid shot. And you're not going to see ammo at this point that isn't going to be RNG if THF can equip it. They're the ranged weapon gawds, ergo they get any goodies we do- after all, they have access to all the other status bolts. What I'm saying is a constant ranged Dispel ability for free might be a bit much, as it's almost universally useful and a staple of caster/buff classes.

Mirage

12-15-2012, 07:19 AM

Well, the currently weapons of choice for rangers are bows and guns, isn't that correct? In order to fire a dispel bolt, they'd need to swap to a crossbow, which would clear their tp.

And still, if dispel bolts aren't 100%, you might have to fire 3-5 low damage, high delay bolts before getting a dispel, which would lower their DPS quite a bit compared to if they were using a high-damage weapon combo during that time.

Annalise

01-07-2013, 04:28 AM

In the case of dispel bolts, I realize you might think it is overpowered to be able to dispel almost non-stop. Perhaps the bolts should have a high delay, and the effect should perhaps not have the highest magic accuracy in the world. I do think that getting a dispel proc around 33% of the time would be all right, though. Firing bolts isn't free (and dispel bolts might be expensive to make too!), and doing several ranged attacks in a row lowers damage output significantly. Additionally, we wouldn't be able to use stat-boosting ammo such as raider's boomerang or other non-usable ammo pieces without losing all our TP whenever switching to a crossbow.

For this post and every other post mentioning putting poor delay on a dispel bolt...

Higher delay on ammo is actually desirable. Why? Because ranged attack delay is calculated solely on the weapon delay, and the ammo delay is not taken into account. The ammo doesn't delay you any longer; instead, it just gives you more TP. This is why higher delay on ammo is better, as you still attack the same speed but gain more TP.

"Ranged weapon delay is the only variable affecting the total delay. "
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Delay

"Only ranged weapons' (not ammunition) delay account for the aiming delay (actual delay). "
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Delay

Just clearing that up a bit.

goozira

02-14-2013, 07:59 PM

Dispel bolts could work just like Spartan Bullets on rng. They have a really low proc rate and they are low damage.

Nebo

02-21-2013, 10:02 AM

Dispel bolts could work just like Spartan Bullets on rng. They have a really low proc rate and they are low damage.

Eh, a dispel bolt with low proc rate would not see much (if any) inventory time with me. I can't think of a situation where that would be functionally useful. If I'm in a group event, the mage will already have dispelled the monster several times while I'm firing bolts at it trying to get one to proc. If I'm soloing, it wouldn't be worth the opportunity cost to sit there firing bolts that have a low proc rate.

If anything, design philosophy behind status bolts needs to move in the other direction to make them more viable. Things I'd like to see that could easily be done via via Job trait, Equipment or Cross bow:

Dramatic Increase to status effect duration. The current amount of firing needed to maintain status effects via bolts is unreasonable.
An increase in status effect potency.
An increase in the amount of HP drained from bloody bolts.
A signiicant increase in the "magic accuracy" of status bolt effects against end game targets and NMs

According to their THF design philosophy, I wouldn't count on dispel bolts happening. They already think Aurasteal on a 5 minute timer is too over powered to separate from steal. That should tell you how weak they want THF to stay in the "dispelling things" department.

Or maybe the developer in charge of THF is just stupid enough to think THF's will 5/5 merit Aurasteal because stealing protect from Paladins in Dynamis is a super awesome thing to be able to do? Maybe he really DOESN'T know how worthless Aurasteal is outside of a utility dispel? (this option gets my vote)

Maybe we could see the addition of paralysis or silence bolts since they already have an arrow option available to us? Personally, I only ever use paralysis arrows when soloing something hard...which I don't do much of these days, but at least then I could /toss my bow and arrows.

SpankWustler

02-21-2013, 02:59 PM

Apparently, Thief is meant to have a lot of weird support elements to make up for it being one of the most lackluster melee around. If so, Thief should actually have a lot of weird support elements.

It would be interesting to see a new line of status bolts introduced that provided everything from the current line of bolts, some effects currently found only on arrows, a stronger Drain effect, and a Stun effect; all with somewhat higher accuracy than the present ammunition with these effects. Obviously, this line of bolts would have absolutely horrid base damage to balance it out.

A new crossbow could even be released to compliment this line of bolts, with extremely low delay and Magic Accuracy/Ranged Accuracy bonuses but execrable base damage and even a penalty to Ranged Attack. It would be terrible for Ranger but Thief and maybe even Dark Knight could get some mileage from it.

Bolts in general would be terrible for Ranger because the only thing approaching a good crossbow for Ranger is the Mythic crossbow, so I don't see any reason for concern there.

Or maybe the developer in charge of THF is just stupid enough to think THF's will 5/5 merit Aurasteal because stealing protect from Paladins in Dynamis is a super awesome thing to be able to do? Maybe he really DOESN'T know how worthless Aurasteal is outside of a utility dispel?

My favorite theory is that one of the Development Bros actually hates this game and everything in it. Long ago, someone he loved became a shut-in who, to this very day, does nothing but play Final Fantasy XI all day. This Development Bro is allowed to stay on and take revenge on Final Fantasy XI because he's the only one still around who can code for a PS2 and he is more interested in nursing his grudge than getting a raise.

The rest of the team just tries to ignore the howls of "I'll free you someday, ひきこもり-kun!" or "REEEVVEEENGE!" that emanate from his cubicle whenever he comes up with anything horrible enough to get him really fired up.

Nebo

02-21-2013, 06:34 PM

My favorite theory is that one of the Development Bros actually hates this game and everything in it. Long ago, someone he loved became a shut-in who, to this very day, does nothing but play Final Fantasy XI all day. This Development Bro is allowed to stay on and take revenge on Final Fantasy XI because he's the only one still around who can code for a PS2 and he is more interested in nursing his grudge than getting a raise.

The rest of the team just tries to ignore the howls of "I'll free you someday, ひきこもり-kun!" or "REEEVVEEENGE!" that emanate from his cubicle whenever he comes up with anything horrible enough to get him really fired up.

I want so very much to laugh at this, because it is really funny. But mostly I just feel sad...because it could very well be true.

Apparently, Thief is meant to have a lot of weird support elements to make up for it being one of the most lackluster melee around. If so, Thief should actually have a lot of weird support elements.

I think we have just about the only useful desired weird support element SE is ever going to give us.

Although, since SE has been talking about individual job variation analysis with DRK:

Looking at each job individually, there are variations in what they are good at and what they are not so good at. (This would be the aspect known as job characteristics.)
These variations are altered through the addition of equipment/items and through job adjustments, and linked to the compatibility of content. Furthermore this is linked to the variations within a job itself.

These variations are a matter of degrees and will become a topic of where we draw the line; however, there are various methods to perform adjustments.

For example:
Adjustments to jobs
Adjustments to equipment and items
Adjustments to content
So on and so forth…

With that said, we feel that currently dark knight’s level of variation is much higher than that of other jobs, and since it seems that you share the same understanding we have come to the decision to revamp the stats on Twilight Scythe.

I'd be VERY interested to see what the results of this stengths and weaknesses variation analysis were for THF....assuming that they did one....or that anyone on the development team cares about THF....I know...I live in a fantasy world.

I'm guessing it looks something like this...

Stengths:

Makes the things drop .001% more than any other job that selects THF as their support job.
Reaches the cap to evade the things with less pieces of gear than other evasive jobs.

Weaknesses:

Every single job characteristic, ability, trait or piece of equipment not listed in strengths must suck worse than anything has ever sucked before due to the .001% drop rate added to the things by setting your main job to THF.

...with random bits of nonsense about being able to steal gold coins over and over whilst pillaging treasure coffers for astral rings.

Babekeke

02-23-2013, 06:19 PM

All I'm really interested in (due to inventory constraints) is acid bolts and bloody bolts. Maybe blind bolts, and if they wanted to introduce para blots, they might find use. A higher level of bloody bolts would be a godsend, even if they were only ~50% more potent.

Karbuncle

02-24-2013, 05:57 AM

I like that we have Status bolts, But lets be realistic, They're at best solo tools, Or something you use when 2-3 Manning crap with friends... If you even bother equipping them then.

Lets assume for a moment we do have time to stock up on Bolts. The only truly useful one is Acid bolt, thats because its effect is useful to the group as a whole. Venom Bolts, Blind Bolts, pretty much every other status bolt (Saving bloody for later) are terrible, and at best a solo tool.

This is due mostly to the fact that if you need Blind or Poison, Theres a mage for that, who's likely somewhere in your alliance.. Or again, Solo tool.

Then, You have to topple on top of that fact, that our Skill in Crossbow is pretty crap. If we want to even have a chance at hitting any endgame enemy at all, You're going to need a full R.acc set, and Probably Feint. Now raise your hand if you have the inventory space right now to carry around a Crossbow, 1-2 Stacks of Bolts depending on what you want with you, and roughly 12 additional pieces of R.Accuracy armor.

aaaaaaaaaaaanyone? I sure as hell don't. Between an Evasion set, Eva/HasteHybrid, SAWS, TAWS, SATAWS, WS(Mercy), WS(Evisc), TP(AccNotNeeded) TP(NEEDSSUMACC), and so forth, an added Ranged Accuracy set would be impossible to fit. That, and Acid bolts can be easily replaced by say... Tachi: Ageha, or Angon... Which are more reliable and don't require special builds.

Marksmanship for THF is pretty much on par with the rest of the job, Crappy and horrifically niche at best... Sad but true.

*Also on the Subject of Bloody Bolts. Solo uses they're pretty cool, But I can't recall the last time i was in a situation where I required Bloody bolts... its been since the 75 cap.

Nebo

02-25-2013, 12:30 PM

I agree that marksmanship utility is pretty low these days.

The only one that really gets any use from me any more is acid bolts, but just as you said, other forms of defense down overwrite them and are beter.

To add utility for group settings, I'd say that the effects of status bolts could be changed such that:

Blind bolts: Cause % based accuracy down that stacks with Blind
Acid Bolts: Causes a % based physical damage taken increase.
Venom Bolts: Non elemental DoT effect. Potency and duration increased.
Bloody Bolts: Non Elemental Damage on the HP drain effect. Potency increased.
Sleep Bolt: Non elemental Sleep. Duration increased.

So the first thing, across the board, would be to increase the base potency, duration and magic accuracy of the effect. As well, to have the elemental properties removed.

But as added group utility, to also enhance Potency, Magic accuracy and Duration of these effects based on the number of players on the hate list (similar to bully).

Just an idea that will never happen.

RygaenYuui

02-27-2013, 01:42 AM

I agree that marksmanship utility is pretty low these days.

The only one that really gets any use from me any more is acid bolts, but just as you said, other forms of defense down overwrite them and are beter.

To add utility for group settings, I'd say that the effects of status bolts could be changed such that:

Blind bolts: Cause % based accuracy down that stacks with Blind
Acid Bolts: Causes a % based physical damage taken increase.
Venom Bolts: Non elemental DoT effect. Potency and duration increased.
Bloody Bolts: Non Elemental Damage on the HP drain effect. Potency increased.
Sleep Bolt: Non elemental Sleep. Duration increased.

So the first thing, across the board, would be to increase the base potency, duration and magic accuracy of the effect. As well, to have the elemental properties removed.
.

It'd suffice too just to have more options to choose from as far as bolts are concerned, or higher level bolts that have the same effect but higher potency, BaseDAM, M.acc, and duration.

Babekeke

02-27-2013, 03:12 AM

Then, You have to topple on top of that fact, that our Skill in Crossbow is pretty crap. If we want to even have a chance at hitting any endgame enemy at all, You're going to need a full R.acc set, and Probably Feint. Now raise your hand if you have the inventory space right now to carry around a Crossbow, 1-2 Stacks of Bolts depending on what you want with you, and roughly 12 additional pieces of R.Accuracy armor.

aaaaaaaaaaaanyone? I sure as hell don't. Between an Evasion set, Eva/HasteHybrid, SAWS, TAWS, SATAWS, WS(Mercy), WS(Evisc), TP(AccNotNeeded) TP(NEEDSSUMACC), and so forth, an added Ranged Accuracy set would be impossible to fit. That, and Acid bolts can be easily replaced by say... Tachi: Ageha, or Angon... Which are more reliable and don't require special builds.

My R'Acc set nowadays basically consists of a hybrid between my Exenterator set and my eva set, utilising anything with AGI on it that I happen to already be using. Though TBH as you already said, Xbow is basically solo only now anyway, and there's not much that we solo that we don't have capped acc on, even on xbow.

*Also on the Subject of Bloody Bolts. Solo uses they're pretty cool, But I can't recall the last time i was in a situation where I required Bloody bolts... its been since the 75 cap.

I use them always in limbus when farming Temenos West. Usually only when I have to pull links though, and especially on the top floor (6 birds). Maybe it's because I don't have mandau, so i don't kill as fast, or maybe because I'm taru, so I don't have the same HP, idk, but the birds often spend 30 secs missing, then all 5 of them hit you at once, and it can get scary XD

Other time is in dyna if I accidentally pull too many links. All other times I use raider's boomerang.

Nebo

02-27-2013, 03:57 PM

It'd suffice too just to have more options to choose from as far as bolts are concerned, or higher level bolts that have the same effect but higher potency, BaseDAM, M.acc, and duration.

Personally? I couldn't care less about base damage for status bolts. But, I wouldn't mind having having more bullets to use with last stand. But it looks like the development team does not view THF has having decent Ranged DD options

Higher levels of status bolts with the same effects that we have now would certainly be better solo. But my reasoning for changing the effects the way I suggested would be so that they are able to add utility to a group by combining with similar effects from other party members instead of being overwritten or outclassed by them. And I thought Non-Elemenal sleep would be a nifty kind of utility that could benefit THF.

Either way though, I agree that the MACC and duration of the effects needs to be increased.