Dispel II

[Ophannus]

Would be a useful spell to have. RDM learns Dispel before SCH and before BRD learns Finale and before BLU learns Blank Gaze; therefore, it seems prudent that RDM should receive an upgrade to this spell seeing as it's one of RDM's formerly unique spells. Dispel II could remove all status enhancements(or make it remove 2-3 depending on enfeebling skill). Or please make Saboteur work on Dispel to double the effects removed. Would be neat and useful on RDM to be able to instantly remove many special enhancements on a mob in a single cast. Would make for a good addition and probably more useful than Gravity II was.

[Demon6324236]

Agreed, both the spell & compatibility with Saboteur would be nice to see with those effects. I think Dispel II would be nice as a scaling removal (Enfeebling Magic/150+1=Effects removed) so with 500ish we can take off upto 4 effects with a cast.

[Merton9999]

Totally agree. I expected this on the way to 99 and would have welcomed it a thousand times more than Gravity II, which I still think was an intentional practical joke SE is still laughing about. I like both concepts of Dispel II removing more buffs and for a Saboteur Dispel to do the same.

I understand powerful mobs have to have abilities we don't but it still bothers me every time a see things spamming dispel-all, en-dispel, dispellga, cruor-buff-dispel and buff-absorb moves when the original dispel job is stuck with a level 32 spell.

[Babekeke]

I cincurr fully with this thread, however:


Agreed, both the spell & compatibility with Saboteur would be nice to see with those effects. I think Dispel II would be nice as a scaling removal (Enhancing Magic/150+1=Effects removed) so with 500ish we can take off upto 4 effects with a cast.

Not a biggie, but dispel is enfeebling not enhancing.

[Demon6324236]

I cincurr fully with this thread, however:



Not a biggie, but dispel is enfeebling not enhancing.

Yeah messed that up XD had enhancing on the mind from my thread... Let me change that rq x_x;

[saevel]

RDM should get Dispel II that removes multiple buffs, give WHM erase II to remove multiple debuffs.

But .. we all know SE wont' listen to us.

[Demon6324236]

RDM should get Dispel II that removes multiple buffs, give WHM erase II to remove multiple debuffs.

But .. we all know SE wont' listen to us.

True, I mean they ruined enfeebling as a whole for the most part until now when they are finally going to... fix it, so they say.

[Badieh]

Agreed.









.

[ShadowViper]

Finally someone suggesting a truly useful spell for RDM.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Finally someone suggesting a truly useful spell for RDM.

This was suggested before as an effect of Dispel itself, the amount being removed based on enfeebling skill. Dispel II is good, but a waste of a "supposed" limited spell slot when they could just enhance Dispel, Same with the suggested Erase II, Stoneskin II etc...

[Sarick]

It'd be nice to have a dispel that's a dot effect one that last for 20-60 seconds after it hits.

This type of spell would be unique auto dispelling once every game tic.

[cidbahamut]

It'd be nice to have a dispel that's a dot effect one that last for 20-60 seconds after it hits.

This type of spell would be unique auto dispelling once every game tic.
This would be kind of amazing. Something that steadily peels off the mob's buffs over time would be very handy. I would like to see this happen.

[Sarick]

This would be a good if used as an erase effect too.

Dispella

[Llana_Virren]

This would be kind of amazing. Something that steadily peels off the mob's buffs over time would be very handy. I would like to see this happen.

We could have a job trait or ability similar to Divine Caress...
DC raises resistance to an ailment when used with a -na spell....

We could have an ability that inhibits the future application of a buff if restored after Dispelled. For example:

AnnoyingNM uses TooFastForYuu.
AnnoyingNM gains the effect of Haste.
StillGimpedRDM uses Debilitator.
StillGimpedRDM casts Dispel.
AnnoyingNM's Haste effect disappears!**

**For a short time after, if the mob reapplies said buff, it will either a) not work (be immediately worn off) or will be a less-potent version. This could be calculated in the same fashion as samba effects, which, once applied, remain on the mob for a period of time.

One thing that I love about the ideas for RDM spells and abilities is that they are (usually) well thought out, balanced, and approved by the general community.

One thing that I hate about the ideas for RDM spells in abilities is that the FFXI dev team doesn't give a damn.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

We could have a job trait or ability similar to Divine Caress...
DC raises resistance to an ailment when used with a -na spell....

We could have an ability that inhibits the future application of a buff if restored after Dispelled. For example:

AnnoyingNM uses TooFastForYuu.
AnnoyingNM gains the effect of Haste.
StillGimpedRDM uses Debilitator.
StillGimpedRDM casts Dispel.
AnnoyingNM's Haste effect disappears!**

**For a short time after, if the mob reapplies said buff, it will either a) not work (be immediately worn off) or will be a less-potent version. This could be calculated in the same fashion as samba effects, which, once applied, remain on the mob for a period of time.

One thing that I love about the ideas for RDM spells and abilities is that they are (usually) well thought out, balanced, and approved by the general community.

One thing that I hate about the ideas for RDM spells in abilities is that the FFXI dev team doesn't give a damn.

Or do and give the spell/ability to another job instead.

[Behemothx]

Agreed, both the spell & compatibility with Saboteur would be nice to see with those effects. I think Dispel II would be nice as a scaling removal (Enfeebling Magic/150+1=Effects removed) so with 500ish we can take off upto 4 effects with a cast.

Seriously? Maybe you want a kill spell with that too? hehe, sorry but removing 4 effects at once would make the game too easy...

[Demon6324236]

Seriously? Maybe you want a kill spell with that too? hehe, sorry but removing 4 effects at once would make the game too easy...

And making a mob have the power to remove 10~15+ buffs from a RDM isn't overpowered I take it? Your right, maybe it would be to easy, but hard to make a spell grow without being worthless growth. Make it 200/enfeebling magic and you end up with only 2 possible, this seems to low to be worth it because it might as well only be 2 to start with, how many things outside of NMs and beastmen really even get 2 buffs? No, you need more than 2 as well to show it improves enough to be worth improvement over time, ending at 4 seemed about the only way to work well, unless you want it 175/Enfeebling, at which point it might be able to hit 3 with nice gear. Not sure, all depends how you see it. I still think it might rise to slow for people to care and end up just being another spell we don't use, something that we don't need...

As for a kill spell, idk, I think RDM does need a power boost in nukes seeing as we are completely worthless in that department, I mean I am nicely geared on MAB and Impact still only does about 50% of a mobs life in abyssea, a T4 is only about 3/8ths of a mobs life, and half after Impact due to lowered INT. Obviously not on the same scale but still more than we have now, enfeebling is our calling and thus we should have power for it, not be where everyone else is with it.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Seriously? Maybe you want a kill spell with that too? hehe, sorry but removing 4 effects at once would make the game too easy...

You've been living under SE logic too long...

[Ophannus]

Well since Enhancing Spells get bonuses from different tiers of Enhancing Magic skill, why can't Enfeebling since it's the inverse of Enhancing Magic? Make Poison's DoT scale with Enfeebling for example. At the very least, give us the option to dispel 2-3 buffs when we Dispel with Saboteur.

[Vortex]

RDM should get Dispel II that removes multiple buffs, give WHM erase II to remove multiple debuffs.

But .. we all know SE wont' listen to us.


o_O it's called Sacrafice and esuna..they just require thinking to use.

However Fenrir's dispel BP can remove 2 at once.. so i don't see why RDM can't get dispel II.

[Demon6324236]

However Fenrir's dispel BP can remove 2 at once.. so i don't see why RDM can't get dispel II.

As much as I would like to agree with this logic, I have never been able to cast hastega... same with blinkga(SCH or /SCH does allow this however) and stoneskinga(again, SCH or /SCH) Phalanxga(Stopping here...) I love the idea of giving us it, but SMN cant be a reason. We have had many things only SMN gets, and so its basically left out of my reasoning sadly. : /

[Spiritreaver]

Seriously? Maybe you want a kill spell with that too? hehe, sorry but removing 4 effects at once would make the game too easy...

Nah, DRK can already remove multiples stat effects at once every time Nether Void is up with ABS-Attribute, so precedent is already set there. Not forgetting SMN with Fenrir or a prepared BLU being able to repeatedly dispel rotating between its 3 dispel types at times.

The game has been piss-easy forever, way before folks were using Abyssea as a scapegoat for FFXI's ills. Its past time for SE to step up its game, and moves like the one you quoted and the OP forwarded would be a great place to start.

[Ophannus]

I figured since RDM is the first job to learn a dispelling ability, we ought to be the first if anything to get a bonus or upgrade to dispel. That's usually the pattern for magic(similar for Regen/Cures/Protects and nukes)

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I figured since RDM is the first job to learn a dispelling ability, we ought to be the first if anything to get a bonus or upgrade to dispel. That's usually the pattern for magic(similar for Regen/Cures/Protects and nukes)

Tecnically SCH learns it at the same level, we also learn (also had it before WHM originally) Regen I at the same level as WHM but it never continued past tier I.

[Demon6324236]

Tecnically SCH learns it at the same level, we also learn (also had it before WHM originally) Regen I at the same level as WHM but it never continued past tier I.

Umm~ II*

Either way I think regen was made that way because of our ability to make it last so long, could be seen as unbalanced. However at the same time I have to say Regen doesn't last very long at all when you look at it against other buffs, wouldn't mind seeing a Regen 3 someday...

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Umm~ II*

Either way I think regen was made that way because of our ability to make it last so long, could be seen as unbalanced. However at the same time I have to say Regen doesn't last very long at all when you look at it against other buffs, wouldn't mind seeing a Regen 3 someday...

I meant at the same level as WHM, when you consider the spell itself was given to RDM specifically along with Refresh originally. (at the beginning RDM was the DoT/HoT mage)

I'm aware RDM gets Regen II, also as for Regen III, agreed! I don't see how while both WHM and SCH have higher tiers they couldn't lower Regen II and grant Regen III at the current level of Regen II.

[Okipuit]

Hey guys,

We let the development team know about your suggestion and inquiry about Dispel II. They mentioned that since Dispel's recast timer isn't considerably long, multiple buff removals may not be the best upgrade for the tier II version and from a balance perspective removing every effect from an enemy is a bit too powerful. To compare some other magic spells, Erase only removes one spell at a time, while Esuna requires Afflatus Misery to utilize its multiple debuff removal. Taking this example into consideration, what kind of effects would you like to see for Dispel II or perhaps a new magic spell?

[Asymptotic]

Dispel II Removes one beneficial magic effect from the enemy and may inflict the opposite effect.

Dispel II vs. Attack Boost ---> Attack Down, etc.
Dispel II vs. Protect ---> No opposite effect, no negative status inflicted.

[Vortex]

Hey guys,

We let the development team know about your suggestion and inquiry about Dispel II. They mentioned that since Dispel's recast timer isn't considerably long, multiple buff removals may not be the best upgrade for the tier II version and from a balance perspective removing every effect from an enemy is a bit too powerful. To compare some other magic spells, Erase only removes one spell at a time, while Esuna requires Afflatus Misery to utilize its multiple debuff removal. Taking this example into consideration, what kind of effects would you like to see for Dispel II or perhaps a new magic spell?


Ultima, Light based spell. which jobs gets? that is the open debate.

Edit: We have a spell that very strong in every element catagory except light as far as pure magic casting goes (not pet commands, smn etc) i think this would fit nicely. and altho holy 2 and banish CAN be strong with whm if used properly, they are healers, and most won't focus on pure magic damage or even have time for it.

[pancakesandsx]

Okipuit - how does the dev team feel about giving dispel 1 the ability to remove multiple buffs under saboteur, sort of like how esuna can remove multiple debuffs under misery. Since Sab has a 5 minute recast I don't think a multi-dispel would be too powerful.

[Demon6324236]

Ultima, Light based spell. which jobs gets? that is the open debate.

Edit: We have a spell that very strong in every element catagory except light as far as pure magic casting goes (not pet commands, smn etc) i think this would fit nicely. and altho holy 2 and banish CAN be strong with whm if used properly, they are healers, and most won't focus on pure magic damage or even have time for it.

As much as I agree it would be on WHM probably. But it would be cool, maybe give us a use for Divine Magic again after all this time!

[Ophannus]

The whole point of Dispel II was to remove multiple status enhancements. It doesn't come across as overpowered to me because it's really just a convenience for RDM. Giving RDM some kind of specialty in terms of debuffing a target would be nice but as of now we have not one single debuff that is unique to our job. WHM has Addle. Gravity II is a joke because everyone /RDM can use Gravity I which is just as good as Gravity 2 for its intended effect(weight) and the fact that most things are immune to it doesn't help. We can't really cast enhancing spells on others and our self enhancing spells go wasted on our lousy damage dealing skills(low skill levels, no traits or decent gear for us to melee with). Did you know RDM's best body for Chant du Cygne at 99 is a level 70ish body piece from ZNMs?


It's hard to think of new enfeebles for RDM without the developers considering it 'over powered'. For starters how about

Mystify
Level 92
Lowers target's Magic Defense.

Attenuate
Level 96
Lower target's Critical Hit evasion.

Virtus
Level 98
Boosts Attack.




Also while we're on the topic of RDM and have your attention Camate, a while back when the RDM community asked about granting us Fencer(since RDMs are Fencers yet BRD and BST have the trait) the development team responded that instead of giving RDM the trait, they would instead like to expand upon RDM's melee capabilities including Fencer by giving them gear with Fencer on it. There isn't even one.

[Ophannus]

RDM can't have Cure V because we're not "Healing Specialists" yet WHM gets their own proprietary healing spells and ability likes Afflatus. What proprietary, unique enfeebling spells does RDM have? Dispel? Nope. Gravity? Subbable. Gravity II? VERY lacklaster. RDM has no unique enfeebles as an Enfeebling Specialist, but WHM the Healing Specialist also happens to get most of our enfeebles as WHM/RDM(not to mention refresh and convert).

[Ophannus]

Can't DRK absorb multiple status enhancements with "Absorb-Attri" + Nethervoid? Not only can they dispel two buffs, they get to absorb them. I don't see why Saboteur+Dispel can't do that.

[Llana_Virren]

RDM can't have Cure V because we're not "Healing Specialists" yet WHM gets their own proprietary healing spells and ability likes Afflatus. What proprietary, unique enfeebling spells does RDM have? Dispel? Nope. Gravity? Subbable. Gravity II? VERY lacklaster. RDM has no unique enfeebles as an Enfeebling Specialist, but WHM the Healing Specialist also happens to get most of our enfeebles as WHM/RDM(not to mention refresh and convert).

Remember, despite our A+ skill in enfeebling magic, SE has maintained that RDM is not an "Enfeebling" specialist... rather, a generic "fill the gap" class.

[Muras]

I don't play RDM, but I'm still a fan of the job, so I got a few things to say...


Dispel II Removes one beneficial magic effect from the enemy and may inflict the opposite effect.

Dispel II vs. Attack Boost ---> Attack Down, etc.
Dispel II vs. Protect ---> No opposite effect, no negative status inflicted.

Invert would be a neat spell, but I think we'd get some weird effects. Like, Berserk turning into Defender, and Defender turning into Berserk. I'd imagine Inverting Protect would just inflict Defence Down though... Or they could add new detrimental effects that don't co-exist with Pro/Shell. But then, you know, they'd get ideas like adding mobs that cast stuff like Shatterga and Meltga or something, overwriting Pro/Shell and giving players Shatter and Melt statuses (Defence Down/Magic Damage Taken+). Heh, you know this dev team would do it. But I digress.

Actually, there ya go, give RDM Shatter and Melt. They need more unique enfeebs that other jobs don't have.


Okipuit - how does the dev team feel about giving dispel 1 the ability to remove multiple buffs under saboteur, sort of like how esuna can remove multiple debuffs under misery. Since Sab has a 5 minute recast I don't think a multi-dispel would be too powerful.

I think this should be added. Not just because of the Afflatus Misery thing either, but DRK has something similar: Under Nether Void (Also a 5 minute timer) Absorb-Attri absorbs 2 buffs. Heck, since the RDM doesn't gain any buffs either, maybe make it Dispel 3 even.


Ultima, Light based spell. which jobs gets? that is the open debate.

Edit: We have a spell that very strong in every element catagory except light as far as pure magic casting goes (not pet commands, smn etc) i think this would fit nicely. and altho holy 2 and banish CAN be strong with whm if used properly, they are healers, and most won't focus on pure magic damage or even have time for it.

Getting a little off topic but...

I would like Ultima to be added for sure, as I see it as a more iconic FF spell than Meteor. And while my opinion is a little biased due to the fact that I have Lv99 SCH, I feel Ultima should go to SCH. My reasons are since Ultima has always been a Black Magic spell in the FF universe, that leaves it to BLM SCH and RDM. I don't feel RDM should have it for the same reasons DRK definitely wouldn't have it; Super powerful nukes aren't meant for those jobs.

Between BLM and SCH, I just feel SCH makes more sense. SCH could really use at least one AoE elemental spell, while BLM has countless AoEs. If Ultima really does turn out to be light elemental, it wouldn't be too weird for SCH to receive it since it already has another light elemental in the form of Luminohelix (A minor detail, I know, but it's still true).

Finally though, I wouldn't want to see Ultima do as much damage as Meteor... I think it should be weaker (At least Thundaga III strength), but perhaps inflict a moderate Dia effect on the mobs it hits to go along with the DoT image SCH has. I think this also adds some risk to using the spell as you couldn't sleep the mobs after casting it, encouraging more strategic use of it. Put it on a 3 minute timer, whatever. It'll just be nice to have on SCH for the times that need a AoE nuke.

[Kyte]

Did you know RDM's best body for Chant du Cygne at 99 is a level 70ish body piece from ZNMs?




What body piece are you talking about? I can't remember RDM getting any body pieces from those.

EDIT: I think you're referring to Antares Harness maybe? That's actually from super-Serket. (Not that that weakens your point or anything)

[Demon6324236]

Getting a little off topic but...
what kind of effects would you like to see for Dispel II or perhaps a new magic spell?

Not so much, I would rather go with the question we are asked via SE rather than original topic, but yeah, either way it is and it isn't :x


Between BLM and SCH, I just feel SCH makes more sense. SCH could really use at least one AoE elemental spell, while BLM has countless AoEs. If Ultima really does turn out to be light elemental, it wouldn't be too weird for SCH to receive it since it already has another light elemental in the form of Luminohelix (A minor detail, I know, but it's still true).

Agreed, and actually I don't see it as a minor detail, SCH is actually the only job that can cast a light black magic in the game. Which is what Ultima is, so it does make sense, however, RDM is also very lacking in the department of magic damage imo. Ultima would be like a light version of Impact, T5 Light Nuke Damage, which would be good and powerful, but it should cost a high amount as Impact did. Its enfeebling power could be something like a Bio+Dia effect since they do not stack. Now like Impact, which has its high MP cost of 666, I think RDM should have Ultima at 500MP, with a high cast time (Fast Cast can make it faster but due to RDM's high fast cast, to much would make this unbalanced) and a high recast time (Again, because of Fast Cast balancing.)

Honestly I always have thought RDM should get Impact as its own spell, which is why I'm saying Ultima should be similar, it is enfeebling, and magic damage, and would let us have some magic power we have never actually been able to use. It also plays to RDM's style, its many styles in 1, RDM is WHM+BLM+WAR, and Impact/Ultima would be Enfeebling+Elemental+Dark/Divine magics, simply my take on it.


We can't really cast enhancing spells on others and our self enhancing spells go wasted on our lousy damage dealing skills(low skill levels, no traits or decent gear for us to melee with). Did you know RDM's best body for Chant du Cygne at 99 is a level 70ish body piece from ZNMs?

Also while we're on the topic of RDM and have your attention Camate, a while back when the RDM community asked about granting us Fencer(since RDMs are Fencers yet BRD and BST have the trait) the development team responded that instead of giving RDM the trait, they would instead like to expand upon RDM's melee capabilities including Fencer by giving them gear with Fencer on it. There isn't even one.Note:Okipuit not Camate, just sayin.

While I completely agree RDM does need a melee boost, I will also give SE credit where it is due. We have in fact got alot of things for meleeing. Temper is a great addition, if it were made to target others it would not help us melee, it would let us help the other DDs melee while we get laughed at for trying. I also understand they have been lacking in giving us rounded gear, meaning good gear for all spots, especially CDC gear. However, look at this set here (ffxiah.com/item-sets/260962), it shows just how much we do have for melee, we can do it. Lv90~99 gear has been amazing for meleeing RDMs, but the fact is we also have the greatest flaw with this. Much of this gear that stands out is from VW, which we all know how drops are for that! But I do agree, we do need more and some traits would be nice, I just wanted to point out there has been massive improvements in my opinion over our past. And CDC is easily lacking in gear, for the best set I could put together when I tried is here (ffxiah.com/item-sets/260965) where there is only 1 piece we have actually gotten for this in my set, since lv90. I would like to think Gain-DEX helps balance this, however I also think it is unfair RDM has been given so little gear since 90 to help our most deadly of WSs.

[Asymptotic]

I don't play RDM, but I'm still a fan of the job, so I got a few things to say...



Invert would be a neat spell, but I think we'd get some weird effects. Like, Berserk turning into Defender, and Defender turning into Berserk. I'd imagine Inverting Protect would just inflict Defence Down though... Or they could add new detrimental effects that don't co-exist with Pro/Shell. But then, you know, they'd get ideas like adding mobs that cast stuff like Shatterga and Meltga or something, overwriting Pro/Shell and giving players Shatter and Melt statuses (Defence Down/Magic Damage Taken+). Heh, you know this dev team would do it. But I digress.

Actually, there ya go, give RDM Shatter and Melt. They need more unique enfeebs that other jobs don't have.


I would see them kind of distinguishing things like Attack Bonus from Protect, Berserk, etc. Berserk/Defender don't overwrite each other, Def down coexists with shell etc.

But you Can't have STR+ and STR-
MDEF+ and MDEF-
DEF+ and DEF-
Haste and Slow etc.

[Economizer]

and altho holy 2 and banish CAN be strong with whm if used properly

lolwut? Prove to me that a White Mage can constantly outdamage a Red Mage without busting out the melee. Having five more elements, a tier IV, better MP capabilities, and not having to charge gimpy spells definitely helps. Healing and support is always a risky role, since once you reach "good enough" you can just start focusing on doing other stuff, like nuking.

-

On Dispel II, perhaps it should be an elementaless dispel (much like Meteor has no element)? Or perhaps it should not only remove the effect, but puts an also makes it so the same effect can't be reapplied for some time? Or it could remove the effect, then put a severe stat-down effect much like Impact, but without the huge MP cost.

Who knows? Maybe Dispel II isn't the right spell, but we'll see.

[Demon6324236]

Prove to me that a White Mage can constantly outdamage a Red Mage without busting out the melee. Having five more elements, a tier IV, better MP capabilities, and not having to charge gimpy spells definitely helps. Healing and support is always a risky role, since once you reach "good enough" you can just start focusing on doing other stuff, like nuking.

Depends what you fight, so far as I have ever understood Banish was made to kill undead, also there is gear that makes it even more potent against undead. Also many pieces of gear are now spread between many mage jobs, as such you can stack heavy amounts of MAB onto a WHM for Banish/Holy if you so choose, because alot of RDM BLM & SCH MAB gear, can be used by WHM as well.

[Muras]

I would see them kind of distinguishing things like Attack Bonus from Protect, Berserk, etc. Berserk/Defender don't overwrite each other, Def down coexists with shell etc.

But you Can't have STR+ and STR-
MDEF+ and MDEF-
DEF+ and DEF-
Haste and Slow etc.

I know. I even said I knew this, although it was implied. That's why I suggested they perhaps add new debuffs that don't co-exist with Protect and Shell, as it'd allow for more powerful combinations with other jobs (Like RDM inflicts anti-Shell or whatever you wanna call it while BLU inflicts M.DEF Down with Acrid Stream. Or in the unlikely chance that SE gives DRK Absorb-MDEF, from a DRK as well).

EDIT: For what it's worth, I honestly can't see them adding something like Invert since it'd be a pain to add. I'm not a master at computer programming, but I'm pretty sure they'd have to code what would happen to every single individual buff in the game if the spell goes off and either invent new debuffs for stuff like Protect or completely ignore said buffs and make the spell less useful. It's certainly an interesting concept but I'd say we're likely to make more progress on other ideas.

[Llana_Virren]

I know. I even said I knew this, although it was implied. That's why I suggested they perhaps add new debuffs that don't co-exist with Protect and Shell, as it'd allow for more powerful combinations with other jobs (Like RDM inflicts anti-Shell or whatever you wanna call it while BLU inflicts M.DEF Down with Acrid Stream. Or in the unlikely chance that SE gives DRK Absorb-MDEF, from a DRK as well).

Debrave and Defaith?
Shatter and Melt/Spoil?
Ruin?

There are plenty of ideas, the problem is how simple/complicated it gets to impliment. Not that "complicated" actually means anything. In terms of threads suggesting RDM improvement, assume that "complicated" means "contradicts the impossible mold created for the job."

[Nala]

atypically i thought holy was the ultimate light spell and ultima was non-elemental.

[Demon6324236]

Depends what you fight, so far as I have ever understood Banish was made to kill undead, also there is gear that makes it even more potent against undead. Also many pieces of gear are now spread between many mage jobs, as such you can stack heavy amounts of MAB onto a WHM for Banish/Holy if you so choose, because alot of RDM BLM & SCH MAB gear, can be used by WHM as well.

Example 1 (ffxiah.com/item-sets/261815) & Example 2 (ffxiah.com/item-sets/261820), either way just wanted to point that out. End factor is that WHM does have its endgame nuke though, it has Holy II. RDM has no endgame nuke though. SCH has Kaustra already, which even if its lv5, it was included at 95, and its the most potent spell for SCH due to the DoT. BLM has Meteor. RDM has no no endgame nuke, we have no new healing spells after LV48 unless you want to count our lackluster Regen II, which is at 76 and even with Composure & AF3+2 Feet/Cape we have shorter duration than a SCH's Regen V I think. We have no special enfeeble only we get, we get no enhancing magic we can provide that is unique to us. We have no real use for Divine or Dark magic, and our melee is sub-par because we have low skill caps. Can't we have something nice please?

[Demon6324236]

atypically i thought holy was the ultimate light spell and ultima was non-elemental.

This is also true so far as I know, then again I have never been big on keeping track, but I know in FFX it was non-elemental.

[Jerbob]

Perhaps Dispel II could work in a completely different way to Dispel and instead be implemented as a status effect that periodically dispels effects over a period of time? It'd be distinct enough to deserve a new spell slot and nice time saver for Red Mages. Have it vary in effectiveness with enfeebling magic skill as well - increased skill for increased duration, frequency of effect removal and the like. This would also allow the original Dispel to be expanded to remove two effects at around, say, 350 enfeebling magic skill. I suppose the only drawback would be that SE would decide it was "overpowered" and make it resist a lot...

On a side note, I like a lot of the new enfeebling magic ideas here. It might be worth looking into some of the existing effects - virus, curse, confuse and the like - to see if they could be repurposed into functional, effective spells as well.

[Muras]

Can't we have something nice please?

After giving it some thought, if you want a final "awesome" RDM spell, I think Grand Cross might fit RDM. For those who're more unfamiliar with other FF games, it's a spell/ability usually used by most final bosses in the other games (Sephiroth used Supernova instead, but it was pretty much the same thing). It usually inflicts mild to severe damage along with a slew of horrible enfeebling effects like poison, silence, slow, paralyze, blind, zombie, confuse and so on. Basically Bad Breath, but better and a whole lot cooler. Make it AoE, deal dark damage (Maybe Water V-ish?) and inflict a wide variety of random enfeebs with high chance of landing.

I dunno, maybe a little over powered but it could probably be balanced in some form. Was just a thought, heh.

[Sasaraixx]

lolwut? Prove to me that a White Mage can constantly outdamage a Red Mage without busting out the melee.

That was not the point of the post so there is no need to prove something that was not even stated. [S]he was simply stating that Holy 2 can put out decent numbers in certain circumstances. You can argue the validity of that statement but there was nothing in it that could lead you to believe [s]he was arguing that WHM can outnuke RDM.

Back on topic, I don't think Dispel II is the right spell. There are so many enfeebles in the game that RDM does not have access to and I think that would be a good place to start.

[saevel]

Depends what you fight, so far as I have ever understood Banish was made to kill undead, also there is gear that makes it even more potent against undead. Also many pieces of gear are now spread between many mage jobs, as such you can stack heavy amounts of MAB onto a WHM for Banish/Holy if you so choose, because alot of RDM BLM & SCH MAB gear, can be used by WHM as well.

Nope, that came at a later update.

Banish was originally a light elemental nuke that had power between Wind and Fire. It use's MAB / Light staff and originally used dINT. SE was incredibly lazy with it and just copied over the formula used for the other elemental nukes. Later on SE modified Banish to use MND and gave it the effect of lowering undeads resistances.

In any case, I fully believe WHM should have Banish IV / V and Banishga III / Banishja.

[Demon6324236]

After giving it some thought, if you want a final "awesome" RDM spell, I think Grand Cross might fit RDM. For those who're more unfamiliar with other FF games, it's a spell/ability usually used by most final bosses in the other games (Sephiroth used Supernova instead, but it was pretty much the same thing). It usually inflicts mild to severe damage along with a slew of horrible enfeebling effects like poison, silence, slow, paralyze, blind, zombie, confuse and so on. Basically Bad Breath, but better and a whole lot cooler. Make it AoE, deal dark damage (Maybe Water V-ish?) and inflict a wide variety of random enfeebs with high chance of landing.

I dunno, maybe a little over powered but it could probably be balanced in some form. Was just a thought, heh.

Honestly a Bad Breath type of spell would be nice to have, and it could also potentially add some of the enfeebling we do not get. The fact it does damage also makes it more effective as well. As an offset to RDM's Fast Cast I was thinking a spell of such nature should have a casting time of say... 20 seconds, natural FC alone would bring it down 14(Impact's cast time) with RDM AF1 Hat & AF2 Body, it would be 10, capped Fast Cast (Of which I have not been able to determine how you can actually hit via Fast Cast gear alone using AH.com...) it would be 4 seconds. The recast should be 10 minutes, again, Fast Cast can lower this to 5 minutes, however, that would mean lowering the potency of it. To ask for a spell that causes many enfeeblings and damage is already going to be asking alot of SE I think, so a long recast and potentially long cast timer seems fair.

The spell should be enfeebling if possible, for the fact it is where our highest skill lies, to give us our most potent spell as an elemental or dark attributed spell when our skills suffer, would be... disappointing. However I'm not sure how things are with magic, they have told us it is impossible to make a spell target your alliance members but not everyone outside of your party for how they have the game built. So I would hope, it could go off of our enfeebling magic. AoE is as good as it is bad, it would be nice, but we have seen much of the past where RDM has been told no to AoE effects, both enhancing and enfeebling, shown by Accession & Poisonga. Also with the potency of this spell it could make it unbalanced if it were to hit to many targets in one cast. Dark damage isn't a bad idea, but we have powerful dark based forms of damage, where as light doesn't really, also dark is heavy resisted by certain kinds of mobs, where as I don't know that light is actually resisted by much at all. This is as much a good thing as it is a bad thing, mobs resistant to it is more balanced.

The MP cost should be about 500 in my opinion, enough it does not kill a RDMs MP supply to cast it, the 666 of Impact made sense, it was for many jobs, but outside of items or buffs, my RDM has only 758MP in my melee gear, 849 in enfeebling magic gear. Meteor does cost alot, and takes many to be useful, BLMs have more MP, the 418MP for Meteor still makes a sizable dent, and so I think our "Grand Cross" would be ok to cost more, since we only need one person and our MP pool is smaller.

This is my ideas on balancing it, and how it should work. :x

[Demon6324236]

Nope, that came at a later update.

Banish was originally a light elemental nuke that had power between Wind and Fire. It use's MAB / Light staff and originally used dINT. SE was incredibly lazy with it and just copied over the formula used for the other elemental nukes. Later on SE modified Banish to use MND and gave it the effect of lowering undeads resistances.

In any case, I fully believe WHM should have Banish IV / V and Banishga III / Banishja.

Good to know. As for Banish IV/V & Ga III/Ja. I would like to agree, but it does go back to the idea that WHM is mainly a healer, to give them the tools for damage and the power to defend themselves is one thing, however... To give them the power to deal high damage via Banish spells, seems questionable. RDM does not get T5 nukes, we are limited to T4, and we are an all round job, T3 is the limit to DRK, which is mainly a DD with some casting involved. To see WHM limited to T3 would not be much different in my eyes. But it does also make sense to add them some more damaging spells as light damage spells are lacking. I would not mind either way, it would be nice, and PLD might even see more Banish spells itself, not used, but they are nice to have access to. In a perfect world of FFXI where enmity mattered, Banish would help PLD alot on melee resistant/magic vulnerable mobs. ^_^

[Neisan_Quetz]

Hey guys,

We let the development team know about your suggestion and inquiry about Dispel II. They mentioned that since Dispel's recast timer isn't considerably long, multiple buff removals may not be the best upgrade for the tier II version and from a balance perspective removing every effect from an enemy is a bit too powerful. To compare some other magic spells, Erase only removes one spell at a time, while Esuna requires Afflatus Misery to utilize its multiple debuff removal. Taking this example into consideration, what kind of effects would you like to see for Dispel II or perhaps a new magic spell?

Let Dispel remove additional enfeebles with Saboteur, 2-3.

Would prefer something along the lines of a 2-3 part enfeeble, such as reducing a foe's magic/physical strength at once (not necessarily the base stats such as str/int etc., magic attack reduction/damage dealt reduction).

EDIT: And don't give us any BS about Bio either, it doesn't stack with dia so unless they're going to change that Bio doesn't exist.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Remember, despite our A+ skill in enfeebling magic, SE has maintained that RDM is not an "Enfeebling" specialist... rather, a generic "fill the gap" class.

Actually they more or less did indicate that was what the RDM did.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Hey guys,

We let the development team know about your suggestion and inquiry about Dispel II. They mentioned that since Dispel's recast timer isn't considerably long, multiple buff removals may not be the best upgrade for the tier II version and from a balance perspective removing every effect from an enemy is a bit too powerful. To compare some other magic spells, Erase only removes one spell at a time, while Esuna requires Afflatus Misery to utilize its multiple debuff removal. Taking this example into consideration, what kind of effects would you like to see for Dispel II or perhaps a new magic spell?

There is no point of a Dispel II if it will not remove two debuffs. Considering few enemies cast more than one buff in the first place and are strong enough as it is since the "cripple magic" doesn't work on it, it's hardly overpowered, or even unbalanced.

Tell the Dev's to actually research the meaning of the word, they like to throw it out while not knowing it.


I wish you used universal reasoning, as it stands its: "Every job can have effects that we consider powerful, and do multiple thing, RDM however can get Gravity II and we'll troll more by continuing complete resistance to it."
Saboteur could be used as reasoning to give it while retaining your warped view of balanced how about you do it so Saboteur,

1. Works on ALL enfeebles
2. Adds bonus' to it such as multiple debuff on Dispel.



EDIT: I swear I edited my other post, instead of multiple posting.

[cidbahamut]

balance
http://techredible.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/You-keep-using-that-word1.jpg

[Vivivivi]

Hey guys,

We let the development team know about your suggestion and inquiry about Dispel II. They mentioned that since Dispel's recast timer isn't considerably long, multiple buff removals may not be the best upgrade for the tier II version and from a balance perspective removing every effect from an enemy is a bit too powerful. To compare some other magic spells, Erase only removes one spell at a time, while Esuna requires Afflatus Misery to utilize its multiple debuff removal. Taking this example into consideration, what kind of effects would you like to see for Dispel II or perhaps a new magic spell?

Toad! Mini! Giant! Stop!
XD

Kinda serious though.
Toad would, turn you (or your enemy) into a frog for a period of time, and like in older FF games wouldn't be expected to work on NMs or anything.

Mini would shrink you or your enemy, and severely reduce defense and attack, but leave magic attack and magic defense unchanged.

Giant would make you or your enemy very large, and could potentially increase attack and defense while lowering INT MND CHR etc.

Stop would essentially inflict terror on an enemy for a period of time, probably with a low chance of success without something like elemental seal up.

[Oscar71]

This sounds awesome! Just make sure SCH gets it!

[Demon6324236]

This sounds awesome! Just make sure SCH gets it!

The point is to come up with a spell or spells only RDM can use... -_-; if another job can use it why should RDM even exist anymore...

[Oscar71]

The point is to come up with a spell or spells only RDM can use... -_-; if another job can use it why should RDM even exist anymore...

I'm a greedy SCH. The point?

[Demon6324236]

I'm a greedy SCH. The point?

Embrava & Kaustra didn't already make SCH good enough? O.o;

[Mindi]

Ewww out of all suggestions made how to enhance RDM the Devs react on Dispel II........ what the h... is the reason for devs to think about Dispel 2 when they already think "letting mutiple buffs be dispeled would be too powerfull" (LOL)? They could have just ignored it like any other suggestion to RDM. Its a new RDM-trolling again "Oh you want a new spell? hmm dispel II yea np we just keep it like the 1st, add nothing new to it (or add something totally pointless) and let us be praised by community for our hard work like our great idea of adding gravity II"

Only thing DEVs come up with all the time is their reducing enfeebling magic resistance.. which is no buff for RDM, which is a buff for any mage job useing enfeebling magic. And the only thing they react on is dispel II? (which i see at all totally pointless, dispel 1 is enough, if you want to dispel 2 buffs wait 2 secs and recast it....................) the mentioned idea i liked about dispel II is to stick the opposite debuff on it. But we all know this wont happen.

[Oscar71]

Embrava & Kaustra didn't already make SCH good enough? O.o;

Make Kaustra operate with Modus Veritas and give Embrava a Refresh effect, then I'll be happy, til then I want what RDM gets.

[cidbahamut]

I'm a greedy SCH. The point?

This is a Red Mage forum?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I'm a greedy SCH. The point?

All SCH's are, the whole concept of the job is steal.



Make Kaustra operate with Modus Veritas and give Embrava a Refresh effect, then I'll be happy, til then I want what RDM gets.

lol, asking to abuse SCH's Modus Veritas again, yeah!! No chance.

Embrava is a melee buff, Refresh is NOT a melee buff. See the problem?

[Demon6324236]

Ewww out of all suggestions made how to enhance RDM the Devs react on Dispel II........ what the h... is the reason for devs to think about Dispel 2 when they already think "letting mutiple buffs be dispeled would be too powerfull" (LOL)? They could have just ignored it like any other suggestion to RDM. Its a new RDM-trolling again "Oh you want a new spell? hmm dispel II yea np we just keep it like the 1st, add nothing new to it (or add something totally pointless) and let us be praised by community for our hard work like our great idea of adding gravity II"

Only thing DEVs come up with all the time is their reducing enfeebling magic resistance.. which is no buff for RDM, which is a buff for any mage job useing enfeebling magic. And the only thing they react on is dispel II? (which i see at all totally pointless, dispel 1 is enough, if you want to dispel 2 buffs wait 2 secs and recast it....................) the mentioned idea i liked about dispel II is to stick the opposite debuff on it. But we all know this wont happen.

Whats funny/sad is they think its specifically helping RDM it seems from their response to changing our merits while everyones timer was reduced and new effects added. Everyone gets better JAs, we get same old merits as ever, which still suck :D but in return, enfeebling magic will be able to actually land... But wait :O that means, it helps every single mage out there! :mad: How do people know how to make video games, MMOs at that, and yet they don't understand, every job can enfeeble the same things we can, we just do slightly better at it than everyone else, as if it matters... :confused:

[Asymptotic]

RDM doesn't need dispel 2, it needs a fundamental redesign to maintain any relevance to anything.

[Demon6324236]

Make Kaustra operate with Modus Veritas and give Embrava a Refresh effect, then I'll be happy, til then I want what RDM gets.

Wow... RDMs were once the best job in the game, we could do it all, then we went from best job, to worthless... Thankfully for you, SCH was once able to kill anything in the game in a matter of a few seconds if people were smart enough to all hit Modus in the same few seconds, because 25 damage helix with 18 SCH became a 3276800 damage helix. Then Modus got the update that made it go from the best JA in the game, to completely worthless (imo.) Be happy you only got a small nerf to 1 JA, RDM got a nerf that prevented its growth in this game. There was a time when RDM had the DoTs & Enhancing Magic under its control. SCH gets the best of both now, where no other magic can even come close.

Other than that, SCH gets good Regen, RDM gets trash Regen, SCH gets good cures, RDM gets slightly less cure power, but also no Rapture. SCH can nuke almost as well as a BLM, RDM can't nuke for shit. SCH has the ability to make its buffs last 2.5 times as long on targets without gear to do it, RDM has to have certain gear to do roughly the same. SCH/RDM gets access to almost every buff RDM gets but can AoE it all, which RDM cannot do without /SCH. Need I go on? SCH is good enough thank you, RDM needs something unique now, SCH has had its time to shine with super powers, now its RDMs turn, k? :D

[Oscar71]

Wow... RDMs were once the best job in the game, we could do it all, then we went from best job, to worthless... Thankfully for you, SCH was once able to kill anything in the game in a matter of a few seconds if people were smart enough to all hit Modus in the same few seconds, because 25 damage helix with 18 SCH became a 3276800 damage helix. Then Modus got the update that made it go from the best JA in the game, to completely worthless (imo.) Be happy you only got a small nerf to 1 JA, RDM got a nerf that prevented its growth in this game. There was a time when RDM had the DoTs & Enhancing Magic under its control. SCH gets the best of both now, where no other magic can even come close.

Other than that, SCH gets good Regen, RDM gets trash Regen, SCH gets good cures, RDM gets slightly less cure power, but also no Rapture. SCH can nuke almost as well as a BLM, RDM can't nuke for shit. SCH has the ability to make its buffs last 2.5 times as long on targets without gear to do it, RDM has to have certain gear to do roughly the same. SCH/RDM gets access to almost every buff RDM gets but can AoE it all, which RDM cannot do without /SCH. Need I go on? SCH is good enough thank you, RDM needs something unique now, SCH has had its time to shine with super powers, now its RDMs turn, k? :D

Awww, ok. :D

[Vivivivi]

RDM can use swords and slash stuff. SCH can't do that.

[Oscar71]

RDM can use swords and slash stuff. SCH can't do that.

But if we could, we would be Gandalfs.

[tyrantsyn]

Kk here's my 2 cents

Dispel II removes "one" Job ability or Attack type from a target for a duration base on skill and potency of the caster. Spell can not be stack. Spell could be made to either over write or have no effect if the spell is already in effect. Spell could be set up as a random loss of one of the two or have it cast after a the desired JA or Attack type in order to lock it out for the duration of the spell. Recast timer can be made longer than the max duration of the spell at capped skill and potency for reason of balance. After the spell duration wears off a cool down period could be added in order to stop spamming or trying to lock out the JA/Attack type completely "optional". Any PC trying to re~apply the spell during this period would get a resisted message.

The design of this spell adds to the over all appeal of having a RDM on hand when dealing with a particular monster with a potent attack that can be trouble some or out right devastating to the group when spammed or use back to back. It would gain RDM some utility in the group and help encourage invite's for the job class when dealing with trouble some mob's of this type. Unlike the amnesia spell idea, where the monster would loss access to all it's JA's this one only lock's out one JA/Attack type at a time for the duration of the spell. And would be set up so it couldn't be stack or spammed to completely cripple a mob.

[Demon6324236]

RDM can use swords and slash stuff. SCH can't do that.

True, but how often do leaders not mind a RDM taking up the front lines? :P

[Asymptotic]

True, but how often do leaders not mind a RDM taking up the front lines? :P

That's because RDM melee generally offers nothing of value.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

That's because RDM melee generally offers nothing of value.

Then it's relevance is none in this conversation.

[saevel]

Hey guys,

We let the development team know about your suggestion and inquiry about Dispel II. They mentioned that since Dispel's recast timer isn't considerably long, multiple buff removals may not be the best upgrade for the tier II version and from a balance perspective removing every effect from an enemy is a bit too powerful. To compare some other magic spells, Erase only removes one spell at a time, while Esuna requires Afflatus Misery to utilize its multiple debuff removal. Taking this example into consideration, what kind of effects would you like to see for Dispel II or perhaps a new magic spell?

What else can Dispel possibly do other then remove buffs? First version removed a single buff, second version must therefor remove multiple buffs or prevent the monster from putting more buffs on. Monsters can strip all our buffs at once, including food, we can at least remove 2~3 buffs from them without modifying balance.

Oki, do the Dev's understand that the community currently thinks Red Mage is a worthless job? The developers have made Red Mage an incredibly weak job while giving multiple buffs to every other job in the game.

[Llana_Virren]

Hey guys,

We let the development team know about your suggestion and inquiry about Dispel II. They mentioned that since Dispel's recast timer isn't considerably long, multiple buff removals may not be the best upgrade for the tier II version and from a balance perspective removing every effect from an enemy is a bit too powerful. To compare some other magic spells, Erase only removes one spell at a time, while Esuna requires Afflatus Misery to utilize its multiple debuff removal. Taking this example into consideration, what kind of effects would you like to see for Dispel II or perhaps a new magic spell?

I try to be courteous to those moogle-faced community reps, however I must now respond to ... "less-than-intelligent" comments with more straight-to-the-point counters:

1. Before I even get started... no one is talking about being able to remove every monster buff at once. We are arguing that the monsters we face can remove anywhere from 1-to-All of our buffs instantaneously, but we are forced to cast a single spell multiple times to be of any effect. Please, read on:

2. Why, for the sake of all that is holy in the universe, does the dev team use "WHM this and BLM that" examples when talking about RDM? It's been repeated by the Devs countless times that we will not have the same "level" of spells as those jobs, so stop comparing us to them! I'll go into detail on this as follows:

3. If Esuna is an AOE version of Erase, regardless of the subject of Afflatus Misery, why can't RDM have an AOE, "Dispelga", or allow Saboteur (or another JA) to enable Dispel to remove more than 1 effect? Just to "compare some other magic spells" as you put it.... Also, WHM's got to use Divine Seal to AOE their -na spells, and they get this over 6 years ago, and yet we still have no natural way of turning our debuffs, include dispel, into multi-target spells. (* using /SCH doesn't count as a "natural" way, as it is a subjob dependent ability).

4. Currently any and all enfeebles are meaningless beyond dispute due to the inate immunities mosters are being granted. Remove immunities. Grant NMs resistance over time (which exists in the form of Physical/Magical immunity abilities already, as well as in gradual -PDT or -MDT traits.

5. Give RDM AOE versions to all enfeebles. Again, to quote you, Okipuit-san, "To compare some other magic spells," BLM gets access to all AOE tiers of their elemental magic, and WHM gets access to all AOE tiers of their healing and divine magic. RDM has A+ enfeebling magic, yet we do not have access to any AOE enfeeble except one: Diaga. Why does RDM not have access to Diaga II, Sleepga, Sleepga II (BLM only) nor access to Slowga, Paralyga, Silencega, Blindga, Bindga, Graviga, Dispelga, Bioga (dark magic, yet we have access to Diaga), Bioga II(?), Poisonga, Poisonga II.

6. In attempt to "balance" RDM melee to RDM magery, the Dev team has sent both to hell in a handbasket. To compare other job types, WAR can balance Berserk with Defender; WHM can use Afflatus Misery or Afflatus Solace, NIN can use Yonin and Innin, but RDM has a JA that extends Enhancing magic? If we want to keep RDM "balanced" use those other jobs as an example: 1 mode which can extend enhancing buffs and quicken attack speed (Composure) and another than increases magic accuracy and potency of enfeebling/elemental magic (as well as access to the AOE versions we should already have) called "Attaque au Fer" (a Fencing term which means an attack against an opponents blade, versus the fencer himself).

More important than new magic spells, are to fix the current conditions of the game which force our current spells to be useless. Remove innate immunities before adding more spells which monsters will inevitably gain immunity against.

Once that is done, however, a few spells such as
--Ruin: Lower physical defense and attack (RDM, SCH)
--Spoil: Lower magic defense and magic attack (RDM, SCH)
--Wait: Light element, enfeebling magic version of Stun. (RDM, WHM)
--Dispell II: Remove 1 debuff and prevent monster from reapplying that attribute for a period of time (will still use MP or TP to apply, but have "no effect." (RDM)
--Give RDM and SCH access to Drown, Burn, Shock, Choke, Rasp, and Frost (RDM, BLM, SCH)
--Sap: gradually lower target's MP (RDM, SCH)
--Confuse: Target will occassionally attack itself or allied monster instead of the targetted player. (Procs similiar to Paralyze) (RDM, SCH)
--Syphon: Gradually drain HP, MP or TP from target over time (each proc can be HP, MP or TP). (RDM, SCH)
--Debrave: Lower attack and dispel /reduce any attack-boosting attributes, short-term Stun effect. (RDM)
--Defaith: Lower magic attack and dispel/reduce any magic-boosting attributes, short-term Silence effect. (RDM)
--Reflect: Self-target, will reflect up to 2 spells before breaking (based on enhancing magic), similar to Blink. (RDM, WHM)
--Reflect II: Party-target (accessionable) will reflect up to 2 spells before breaking (based on enhancing magic) similar to Blink. (RDM)

[Merton9999]

I just read the rep post on avatar issues. I never paid attention to this and don't play SMN, so am I right that Lunar Roar doesn't tell you which two buffs were removed? I guess I should have expected that given the log message after mob dispel-all moves. I'd have a big problem if Dispel II removed two buffs and didn't say which ones they were. Sometimes all I care about is Shell or some horrid damage spikes. Of course you could tell in the case of spikes but not knowing if shell was removed would be annoying. I'd probably just keep spamming Dispel I.

I'm confused about a dev response that suggests removing multiple buffs with a Dispel II would be overpowered. What about RDM in a group anymore even comes close to overpowered? I don't think anyone here suggested it remove ALL buffs. All this would do is provide some convenience in not having to spam Dispel I. If it's really such a problem I'd at least be happy if Saboteur allowed for multiple buff removal. Then you could compare it to Esuna, although Saboteur would still be on a more restrictive timer.

As for Ultima, I'd rather SCH get it, maybe in the new 2-hour, working similarly to Kaustra only light elemental. I really don't want it to be divine magic, unless there is a gobbie bag size increase along with it. For RDM, I'd much prefer a drastic adjustment to enfeebling usefulness, as well as some of the additional spells people have mentioned. Specifically, enfeebles that hurt mob TP moves or TP gain. The job vision from a while ago mentioned a spell that inhibited TP gain for SCH, which I never thought made sense. Such an enfeeble should go to RDM. My only problem is that if such a spell were given to RDM, they'd make it 1 TP a tick like Adloquium :(

[Demon6324236]

I just read the rep post on avatar issues. I never paid attention to this and don't play SMN, so am I right that Lunar Roar doesn't tell you which two buffs were removed? I guess I should have expected that given the log message after mob dispel-all moves. I'd have a big problem if Dispel II removed two buffs and didn't say which ones they were. Sometimes all I care about is Shell or some horrid damage spikes. Of course you could tell in the case of spikes but not knowing if shell was removed would be annoying. I'd probably just keep spamming Dispel I.

I'm confused about a dev response that suggests removing multiple buffs with a Dispel II would be overpowered. What about RDM in a group anymore even comes close to overpowered? I don't think anyone here suggested it remove ALL buffs. All this would do is provide some convenience in not having to spam Dispel I. If it's really such a problem I'd at least be happy if Saboteur allowed for multiple buff removal. Then you could compare it to Esuna, although Saboteur would still be on a more restrictive timer.

As for Ultima, I'd rather SCH get it, maybe in the new 2-hour, working similarly to Kaustra only light elemental. I really don't want it to be divine magic, unless there is a gobbie bag size increase along with it. For RDM, I'd much prefer a drastic adjustment to enfeebling usefulness, as well as some of the additional spells people have mentioned. Specifically, enfeebles that hurt mob TP moves or TP gain. The job vision from a while ago mentioned a spell that inhibited TP gain for SCH, which I never thought made sense. Such an enfeeble should go to RDM. My only problem is that if such a spell were given to RDM, they'd make it 1 TP a tick like Adloquium :(

Thats why I don't understand SE's "vision" on RDM, I'm guessing at some point a RDM got tired of their "vision" for them and cast blind on SE, and now they have no vision anymore. We used to get buffs, now we get only self buffs, SCH gets every good single target/AoEable buff, and WHM gets alot of AoE versions of our stat buffs (Yay for Gain spells, wait, WHM has the same thing, but its called Boost... -_-) we also got enfeebling, but from what you just said, we arnt getting anything useful, the one spell that makes the most sence to give us, would be given to SCH. Our melee suffers, MAB suffers, cures arnt the same, because we cannot spam Rapture as a SCH can or use V/VI. A Dispel II would cut down on MP use, but not much else other than time.

As for Ultima I disagree, SCH has good enough 2hours, they currently have the arguably 2nd best 2 hour in the game. SMN being in 1st, instant death or near invincibility for those nearby. However SCH also gives super powers for melee & the best DoT in the game! Like I said earlier this thread, SCH had its time to shine, let RDM have its turn, because RDM is the most worthless mage atm. SCH, WHM, BLM, SMN, all have their own special spells or 2hours that make them a job to bring, RDM, doesn't.

[Demon6324236]

RDM can use swords and slash stuff. SCH can't do that.

Swords? No... but~ with this (http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/261884) you might see a SCH doing just as well or better than a RDM...

[Jerbob]

To comment on Esuna, the absurd number of hoops you have to jump through before that spell will remove anything worthwhile makes it of limited use at the best of times. Being positioned next to party members (which wastes vital seconds running in during fights that matter), having the appropriate JA activated, being afflicted with the appropriate status effects yourself (which you may well resist anyway with the appropriate barspells, and may involve debilitating silence/amnesia/paralysis/addle etc)...

Of course I am not saying that RDM shouldn't have something similar, but it does demonstrate the sort of hoops that SE will put RDM through for removing multiple effects in the name of balance. Something inane like "Dispel II will remove multiple effects under Saboteur if the Red Mage is currently under the effect of the appropriate bar-status and bar-element spells matching the effects to be removed" would not surprise me.

I really like Llana's list of spell candidates, though I think they should remain RDM exclusive. WHM, and SCH in particular, don't need any (more) enfeebling spells, in my opinion. There was a nice suggestion a while ago for an enfeebling spell that added a static "waiting period" to the use of any mob TP moves that might also fit nicely.

[Demon6324236]

Hmm~ a TP version of Addle wouldn't be bad, longer times to use it = easier stun, which could help alot on NMs like Morta with annoying TPs such as Full Bloom.

Also, we could get a spell I always liked in the past, Libra(Scan) which tells us the Attack, Defense, Resistances, blah blah blah, basically tells you what your up against. Libra is a SCH JA for Enmity already, so we could have a RDM spell and name it the other common name, Scan. Long cast time because you have to analyze the mob, but after, you get a list of much its info. This would also be a way to tell HP amounts on NMs that hide it, which you would not get a constant display, but rather you would be able to recast it again for more info, or updated info. I will however admit this may make more sense for SCH, but it is still an idea.

[Jerbob]

I was actually thinking more in terms of adding a delay in between the monster deciding it has "enough TP" and actually using the move, although a "TP addle" as you say would be fun too and have a similar effect. It'd be a very desirable effect for monsters that like to spam moves in quick succession.

[Asymptotic]

Then it's relevance is none in this conversation.

Congratulations for being able to read or something?

[Ophannus]

Something that increases the cost of TP moves would be neat. So instead of a mob being able to TP at 100%, the spell or ability would inflict the target with an enfeeble that would not allow it to use TP unless it's at 200-300%(but the power of the move would be restricted as if it only had 100% TP). Kind of like a negative TP bonus mixed with Addle mixed with inhibit TP. So instead of a Chariot using Discharge every 100% TP, it would need 200 or 300% TP to execute it.

[Llana_Virren]

--Hinder: Impose a TP-penalty to target's special attacks. Cost: 56MP. (RDM)
"RDM casts Hinder."
"AnnoyingMob receives the effect of Hinderance."
"AnnoyingMOb uses StupidlyNamedAttack.
~target recieves a noticeably lesser amount of damage~
"AnnoyingMob's hinderence effect wears off."

--Refrain: Restrict target from using special attacks. Cost: 102MP. (RDM)
"RDM casts Refrain."
"AnnoyingMob is refrained from using special attacks!"
"AnnoyingMob's refrain effect wears off."

--Restrain: Limit target's area of effect attacks to only strike the active target. Cost:105MP. (RDM)
"RDM casts Restrain."
"AnnoyingMob's attacks are limited to a single target!"
"AnnoyingMob casts Firaga III."
~Only one target is affected by said spell~
"AnnoyingMob's restrainment effect wears off."

--Inhibit*: Restrict target from recieving a beneficial status gained through magic or ability. Spell effect wears after 1 status is blocked. Cost: 100MP. (RDM)
"RDM casts Inhibit."
"AnnoyingMob is Inhibited."
"AnnoyingMob uses SuperAnnoyingMove."
"AnnoyingMob's Haste effect was denied!"
"AnnoyingMob's Inhibit effect wears off."

*for moves or spells that grant multiple beneficial statuses, only one status will be denied.

--Inhibit II. Restricts target from recieving up to 3 beneficial statuses gained through magic or ability. Spell effect wears after a status is blocked. Cost:180MP.
"RDM casts Inhibit II."
"AnnoyingMob is Inhibited."
"AnnoyingMob uses SuperAnnoyingHowl."
"AnnoyingMob's STR bonus was denied!"
"AnnoyingMob's VIT bonus was denied!"
"AnnoyingMob's DEX bonus was denied!"
~AnnoyingMob's AGI is increased~ (not shown)
~AnnoyingMob's MND is increased~ (not shown)
~AnnoyingMob's INT is increased~ (not shown)
~AnnoyingMob's CHR is increased~ (not shown)
"AnnoyingMob's Inhibit effect wears off."

[Demon6324236]

--Hinder: Impose a TP-penalty to target's special attacks. Cost: 56MP. (RDM)
"RDM casts Hinder."
"AnnoyingMob receives the effect of Hinderance."
"AnnoyingMOb uses StupidlyNamedAttack.
~target recieves a noticeably lesser amount of damage~
"AnnoyingMob's hinderence effect wears off."

--Refrain: Restrict target from using special attacks. Cost: 102MP. (RDM)
"RDM casts Refrain."
"AnnoyingMob is refrained from using special attacks!"
"AnnoyingMob's refrain effect wears off."

--Restrain: Limit target's area of effect attacks to only strike the active target. Cost:105MP. (RDM)
"RDM casts Restrain."
"AnnoyingMob's attacks are limited to a single target!"
"AnnoyingMob casts Firaga III."
~Only one target is affected by said spell~
"AnnoyingMob's restrainment effect wears off."

--Inhibit*: Restrict target from recieving a beneficial status gained through magic or ability. Spell effect wears after 1 status is blocked. Cost: 100MP. (RDM)
"RDM casts Inhibit."
"AnnoyingMob is Inhibited."
"AnnoyingMob uses SuperAnnoyingMove."
"AnnoyingMob's Haste effect was denied!"
"AnnoyingMob's Inhibit effect wears off."

*for moves or spells that grant multiple beneficial statuses, only one status will be denied.

--Inhibit II. Restricts target from recieving up to 3 beneficial statuses gained through magic or ability. Spell effect wears after a status is blocked. Cost:180MP.
"RDM casts Inhibit II."
"AnnoyingMob is Inhibited."
"AnnoyingMob uses SuperAnnoyingHowl."
"AnnoyingMob's STR bonus was denied!"
"AnnoyingMob's VIT bonus was denied!"
"AnnoyingMob's DEX bonus was denied!"
~AnnoyingMob's AGI is increased~ (not shown)
~AnnoyingMob's MND is increased~ (not shown)
~AnnoyingMob's INT is increased~ (not shown)
~AnnoyingMob's CHR is increased~ (not shown)
"AnnoyingMob's Inhibit effect wears off."

All sounds good other than Refrain=Amnesia and might as well be named as such lol.

[Ophannus]

Amnesia could work but make it so it only lasts until the next TP move with a 60 second recast. So instead of it blocking all TP moves for like 2-3min like mob version, make it only block one TP move(then it reduces the mob's TP to 0 and the amnesia effect wears off.) Can quickly build resistance to prevent chainspell shenanigans.

[Demon6324236]

--Restrain: Limit target's area of effect attacks to only strike the active target. Cost:105MP. (RDM)
"RDM casts Restrain."
"AnnoyingMob's attacks are limited to a single target!"
"AnnoyingMob casts Firaga III."
~Only one target is affected by said spell~
"AnnoyingMob's restrainment effect wears off."

This might need a lil adjusting now that I think of it, Harpys, Ironclads, and Hahava's race(don't feel like looking it up, to tired) attack with normal attacks as AoEs from what I know, so it would need to be TPs & Magic only otherwise you would blow this on their 1st melee attack and it would be wasted ><;

[Daniel_Hatcher]

This might need a lil adjusting now that I think of it, Harpys, Ironclads, and Hahava's race(don't feel like looking it up, to tired) attack with normal attacks as AoEs from what I know, so it would need to be TPs & Magic only otherwise you would blow this on their 1st melee attack and it would be wasted ><;

Problem with them is all their melee hits count as TP's as well, so it may just end up said families it's worthless on, it working on the majority is still an increase to how or enfeebling is currently.

[Demon6324236]

Problem with them is all their melee hits count as TP's as well, so it may just end up said families it's worthless on, it working on the majority is still an increase to how or enfeebling is currently.

Agreed, I wasn't thinking about them all counting as TPs, would be nice if there was a way around it, if not oh well, sadly its also another reason why paralyze has been massively reduced in usefulness even when it does land, spells are the only truly effected thing.

[Llana_Virren]

This might need a lil adjusting now that I think of it, Harpys, Ironclads, and Hahava's race(don't feel like looking it up, to tired) attack with normal attacks as AoEs from what I know, so it would need to be TPs & Magic only otherwise you would blow this on their 1st melee attack and it would be wasted ><;

Well, SE wouldn't give it to us if it wasn't at least a "little" gimpy. :P

[Neisan_Quetz]

If SE won't implement a workable amnesia/plague spell (none of the others are very effective on NMs) or variant of give Rdm Stun natively and call it a day.

[hideka]

when dispell II removes an effect, that effect can not be re applied for 60-120 seconds. give it a 30 second recast.

[Ophannus]

Or they could give us the spells that have been in the .dats for 8 years:

Wall
Reflect
Might
Faith
Toad
Confuse
Berserk
Curse

Instead of not adding spells to RDM because "the spell list is almost full", instead add existing spells that are unused. Even better: delete crappy spells from the spell .dat list i.e "Bar spell II's, Invisra/Sneakra/Deodorizga/Invisible II/Sneak II/Deodorize II and those Ignis/Aqua/Terra spells.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Or they could give us the spells that have been in the .dats for 8 years:

Wall
Reflect
Might
Faith
Toad
Confuse
Berserk
Curse

Instead of not adding spells to RDM because "the spell list is almost full", instead add existing spells that are unused. Even better: delete crappy spells from the spell .dat list i.e "Bar spell II's, Invisra/Sneakra/Deodorizga/Invisible II/Sneak II/Deodorize II and those Ignis/Aqua/Terra spells.

The thing is, if the list is full it's simple for them to fix. Kill their cutting off their nose to spite their face and just give RDM the AoE version of spells like the barspells, that grants 6 more spaces in itself for brand new spells.

It's not as if it's OP or the single target spells are more powerful than the AoE versions like they claimed to originally aim for.

[Ophannus]

I don't get why most of our enhancing spells are single target. To what benefit are self target spells if we're not a solo class. If we're in an alliance, surely we'll be getting bar-spells from the WHM. Just turn barspells into single cast

[Merton9999]

Or they could give us the spells that have been in the .dats for 8 years:

Wall
Reflect
Might
Faith
Toad
Confuse
Berserk
Curse

Instead of not adding spells to RDM because "the spell list is almost full", instead add existing spells that are unused. Even better: delete crappy spells from the spell .dat list i.e "Bar spell II's, Invisra/Sneakra/Deodorizga/Invisible II/Sneak II/Deodorize II and those Ignis/Aqua/Terra spells.

I've wanted these for RDM for years, ever since I saw them in the .dats. There was a rep post about adding Reflect not too long ago. That was encouraging. About as encouraging as five people on each server having Meteor three years after it was announced...

Anyway, it's impossible for me to buy the overpowered argument on these. There are so many statistics that can be tweaked to make spells and abilities useful without being overpowered. Just bring back the guy who made Afflatus and Composure.

I'm actually scared they will introduce these spells though. They'll be merit category 3 and you'll be able to make exactly two of them useful.

[saevel]

I don't get why most of our enhancing spells are single target. To what benefit are self target spells if we're not a solo class. If we're in an alliance, surely we'll be getting bar-spells from the WHM. Just turn barspells into single cast

RDM was never designed as a "buffing" job like BRD / WHM / COR. SE never intended it to be, nor ever plans on it becoming that. RDM was forced into that position due to all it's other abilities being lack luster and those buffs it does cast having zero potency boosting effect (Refresh / Haste). We could go into this huge dialogue on the history of RDM since 2003, but I think we've already been there and had that discussion. We asked SE point blank and their reply was "no". Then dumb a$$'s got the idea that they might trick SE into turning RDM into a buff b!tch by getting buffs to be cast-able on party / alliance members. SE's didn't even bother giving them a reply.

Long story short, RDM will never ever EVER be a group buffing job, ever. You can cry, stamp your feet, moan and generally get a bad attitude, it won't help. If you want to buff people that badly then go talk to your moogle and change to WHM / BRD or even COR (if you like to shoot things).

[Daniel_Hatcher]

RDM was never designed as a "buffing" job like BRD / WHM / COR. SE never intended it to be, nor ever plans on it becoming that. RDM was forced into that position due to all it's other abilities being lack luster and those buffs it does cast having zero potency boosting effect (Refresh / Haste). We could go into this huge dialogue on the history of RDM since 2003, but I think we've already been there and had that discussion. We asked SE point blank and their reply was "no". Then dumb a$$'s got the idea that they might trick SE into turning RDM into a buff b!tch by getting buffs to be cast-able on party / alliance members. SE's didn't even bother giving them a reply.

Long story short, RDM will never ever EVER be a group buffing job, ever. You can cry, stamp your feet, moan and generally get a bad attitude, it won't help. If you want to buff people that badly then go talk to your moogle and change to WHM / BRD or even COR (if you like to shoot things).

And as such needlessly pointless spells like the bar spells are placed twice in the list occupying more space than necessary restricting any potential new spells.

[saevel]

And as such needlessly pointless spells like the bar spells are placed twice in the list occupying more space than necessary restricting any potential new spells.

I agree that SE should remove the single target barspells and just let RDM have the aoe versions, makes no sense otherwise.

I was never against giving RDM's the capability to buff people, what I am against is forcing a RDM to cast the same spell over and over and over again. The evil xp / merit party style cycles drove most RDM's away from the job and left only the people using it to get gear for a different job. The moment the game got away from merit / xp parties the popularity of RDM died out. That's how sad of a state the job was in prior to abyssea (not to say it got better).

[Lilia]

pointless spells like the bar spells???

I like my solo barspells <3
I dont want weak barspellga from smn/whm or brd/whm, or a wrong barspell from whm.
Is nice to see the ga dont replace rdm barspell.

[Demon6324236]

pointless spells like the bar spells???

I like my solo barspells <3
I dont want weak barspellga from smn/whm or brd/whm, or a wrong barspell from whm.
Is nice to see the ga dont replace rdm barspell.

In a way, I agree, it would suck to have another person nearby cast a shitty spell and wipe your awesome one away, however if this is truly a problem with adding more spells, then do it, I would rather 6 new spells that might be worth having instead of these honestly.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

pointless spells like the bar spells???

I like my solo barspells <3
I dont want weak barspellga from smn/whm or brd/whm, or a wrong barspell from whm.
Is nice to see the ga dont replace rdm barspell.

Like I said, I'm not asking for them to be removed, I'm asking for there to only be the ga line that's given to WHM and RDM, therefore freeing up 6 spaces while having minimum impact.

[Llana_Virren]

freeing up 6 spaces while having minimum impact.

When's the last time you saw a BLM use Shock, Rasp, Choke, Drown, Burn, or Frost?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

When's the last time you saw a BLM use Shock, Rasp, Choke, Drown, Burn, or Frost?

They're still unique spells, 6 x 2 of the same spell minus the AoE ability is a waste.

[Demon6324236]

When's the last time you saw a BLM use Shock, Rasp, Choke, Drown, Burn, or Frost?

Last time I did VW, ok really I see your point but honest answer. Onto Daniel's responce...


They're still unique spells, 6 x 2 of the same spell minus the AoE ability is a waste.

This makes sense, the only thing is that they would need to make a way to keep the Barra-Spells of other people from effecting you, that or if its cast with less enhancing magic then you have it doesn't overwrite yours.

[tyrantsyn]

When's the last time you saw a BLM use Shock, Rasp, Choke, Drown, Burn, or Frost?

I'm not picking on you, just wanted to say when was the last time you saw any thread stay on topic? I thought this was about improving Dispel not taking stuff out of the game?

[Demon6324236]

I'm not picking on you, just wanted to say when was the last time you saw any thread stay on topic? I thought this was about improving Dispel not taking stuff out of the game?

Well it was about Dispel II, then we got paid a visit from a rep and got asked about new spells, in the idea of adding new spells it has been said our list is almost full & we would be unable to get more. Asking to condense the current list to make more room for new spells seems to be on topic still, however this threads name has been misleading since the talk of new spells was introduced to it.

[tyrantsyn]

Yea, just sucks when you come into a thread and the conversation from the OP has nothing to do with whats being discuss on the last page. Especially after a Dev's come in and have ask for specific input on said topic. I don't believe their ever going to delete spell's just to add more. In less balance is called into question.

[Demon6324236]

True, only reason I think barspells could even possibly happen is so far as I know, no mob in the game casts a barspell so no mob would need be changed. Also the spells have no real difference from their AoE counterparts except they are not AoE & AoE do not overwrite(so far as I understand, wouldn't know from experience though) so honestly it doesn't seem like it would be all to hard to do.

[Babekeke]

Well it was about Dispel II, then we got paid a visit from a rep and got asked about new spells, in the idea of adding new spells it has been said our list is almost full & we would be unable to get more. Asking to condense the current list to make more room for new spells seems to be on topic still, however this threads name has been misleading since the talk of new spells was introduced to it.

Scrap all of the tier 2 enfeebles. Then give RDM 3 new meritable ideas, 1 of which being 'enfeebling magic potency' Job Trait, allowing all tier 1 enfeebs to become as potent as their T2 versions by 5/5. Would at least free up 4 other spells.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I'm not picking on you, just wanted to say when was the last time you saw any thread stay on topic? I thought this was about improving Dispel not taking stuff out of the game?

They only post to give a false indication of actually thinking of adding anything, they've done this time and time again to RDM.

[Llana_Virren]

They only post to give a false indication of actually thinking of adding anything, they've done this time and time again to RDM.

No, no, any thread related to boosting RDM is actually being used as ideas for GEO and RNK :P

[cidbahamut]

Scrap all of the tier 2 enfeebles. Then give RDM 3 new meritable ideas, 1 of which being 'enfeebling magic potency' Job Trait, allowing all tier 1 enfeebs to become as potent as their T2 versions by 5/5. Would at least free up 4 other spells.

The problem I see with this is that I like being able to overwrite other people's tier 1 enfeebles. It'd be pretty annoying to have the Ninja casting his Ni spells and cockblocking me out of landing Saboteur Paralyze or something similarly more potent.

[Babekeke]

Communication is not a dirty word... tell them not to cast enfeebs! Also, I'm not sure whay any NIN would cast Jubaku: Ichi, wasting 4 seconds casting an inferior spell to others in the party, instead of just DDing.

That aside, Sabateur'd spells (if they don't already) should be changed so that they always overwrite another non-sabateur'd version of the spell.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

No, no, any thread related to boosting RDM is actually being used as ideas for GEO and RNK :P

RDM's biggest mistake: It's players think up the best ideas.

[Llana_Virren]

The archetype RDM: always thinking, and always getting screwed over by his/her own elaborate plans :P

[saevel]

The archetype RDM: always thinking, and always getting screwed over by his/her own elaborate plans :P

LMAO. Quick you've got the highest evasion score so you go keep it distracted...