Is there a need for job rolls anymore?

[GIJO]

When the game first started out each job had a specific role (tank/healer/magic dd/physical dd/debuff/etc). The game has come a long way from traditional parties. I think all of these new additions to the game are great. It gives players more freedom in leveling and playing the game in general. But as the levels increased some jobs became very diversified and some are still confined to their original roles...PLD, DRK, WHM, for example. It seems like some jobs have just become situational while other are more versatile and can do almost any content in the game.

This brings me to my question. Should all jobs be given more balance to play a more varied part in the game? Give WHM more white magic attack/enfeeble spells, give PLD more dd properties, give DRK more defensive options like MNK and SAM?

This would increase the freedom of the game and to me the more freedom we have to play the class we like the more fun the game becomes. I know a few people that have stopped playing because the job they liked was no longer fun.

How would you modify the jobs?

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

I was hoping against hope this was about COR...

[Demon6324236]

When the game 1st started, roles mattered, then a weakness system was introduced, and roles no longer mattered. Everything in abyssea was just a WAR, THF, NIN, BLM, WHM, BLU, and MNK... with this, you could do anything you wanted and get away with it easily. Then Void Watcher came out, and weaknesses were back again, but this time much more restricting. A very certain setup was needed for most things to be won because of procing.

All I'm trying to say is, even if they were to give PLD an attack boost, wouldn't matter much, because it doesn't attack in the one thing it does well enough to matter, or if it does attack, it cant hold hate because hate cap is screwed up. DRK can actually live as well as a SAM or MNK, because it has Drain & Aspir with WSs that also give you HP & MP. And for the love of god, NEVER again say that WHM should get more enfeebling... RDM is dead/dying because WHM & BLM have TO MANY enfeebling, so much so they have every single one RDM has if together, except the T2 spells.

I would like to see jobs have roles again, but I'm afraid at this point they have screwed the game so much it wouldn't matter even, we have been forced to use certain jobs to win, even in events that do not need procs you need SCH, SMN, BRD, or something of the sort, because they made the enemys hit to hard, or have to be zerged down to fast. Just how it is...

[Dathus]

You keep typing it wrong. Roles*

[cidbahamut]

I thought Chaos Roll was still relevant.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

The Roles are not broken, this game is.

[GIJO]

You keep typing it wrong. Roles*

Thanks. That's what I get for trying to post at 2 am.

[Demon6324236]

Thanks. That's what I get for trying to post at 2 am.

lol I know the feel, same thing I did with my entire reply ><;

[Vivivivi]

There is and there isn't. Depends on what you're doing, and how many of you are doing it. Abyssea is generally limited to NIN WAR WHM BLM BLU BRD MNK, with occasional non-proc jobs for support roles or extra DD support. Voidwatch requires nearly every job for procs, Dynamis is kinda broken to where you can solo farm on DNC with no sub.

However there is other content that requires more traditional party setups such as the new NMs in Dynamis, higher level ZNMs, things like King Behemoth and others, and I kinda like things this way.

There is some content that can be powered through with almost any setup, with competent players, making for fun ways to mix things up, and there is other content which requires more thought out battle strategies, and I like having the option of both ^^

[Demon6324236]

There is and there isn't. Depends on what you're doing, and how many of you are doing it. Abyssea is generally limited to NIN WAR WHM BLM BLU BRD MNK, with occasional non-proc jobs for support roles or extra DD support. Voidwatch requires nearly every job for procs, Dynamis is kinda broken to where you can solo farm on DNC with no sub.

However there is other content that requires more traditional party setups such as the new NMs in Dynamis, higher level ZNMs, things like King Behemoth and others, and I kinda like things this way.

There is some content that can be powered through with almost any setup, with competent players, making for fun ways to mix things up, and there is other content which requires more thought out battle strategies, and I like having the option of both ^^

While as much as I agree you can do them with traditional partys, you can also cheat now, SMN with PD makes any fight that would take thought basically just a zerg.

Such an example is the 95-99 limit break. I did it day 1 with a traditional party setup, a PLD tanking, a WHM healing, a RDM backup healing and giving refresh/buffs, a DRK, a NIN for backup tanking, and a THF. It was fun and hard, we won on the 2nd go but only because we had the tail to win. Without the tail it would have been a fun challenge. However now lets look at the cheat way, a SMN, 5 MNKs, and you win, all the SMN does is pop PD & Ifrit/Favor, then HFZerg the Taru to death. If you win then the MNKs killed him fast enough, if they didn't you go get a COR to reset everyone and go again.

[Cabalabob]

I feel like when the jobs were implemented they had a general idea for them, like drk pld thf blm and whm are the extremes of the roles, drk being DD, pld being tank, thf being evader, whm being healer and blm being nuker, they can do those roles better than anyone else but also they can't do anything else. The other jobs are kind of like hybrids, they are supposed to be able to fulfill multiple roles but not to as greater extent as the extreme jobs. So sam for example (please note this is all how it should work in theory, the game is broken) can DD, but not aswell as a drk and it can dodge, but not as well as a thf. The more roles a job can fill the less proficient it is compare to the extreme ones, like A well geared Blu will be as good as any badly geared job it is filling the role off, but it will never be as good as a well geared version of the job.

But lately these lines have been blurred and the extremists have lost the potential to fulfill their roles better than hybrids (e.g sam out damages drk) and the extremists have been getting developments in areas they don't need (whm and blm enfeebling) so it has become more efficient to use the hybrids which are outperforming the extremists in their roles and already being more efficient in the roles the extremists seem to be developing

So basically no I don't think they should bring the extreme jobs up in other skills, rather make them the best at what they do so they can outdo any other job at it, so a dnc solo (healer + evader) would not outdo a thf and whm combo, it could do they same stuff as that combo but it would be harder for it than it would be for a whm and thf. So essentially drk should be the best DD in the game but it should not have any tanking capabilities and so on.

I'm not saying they should gimp they hybrids, but rather that they should overpower the extremists in their particular area so a combo of two extremists will outdo one hybrid, which lately doesn't always seem to be the case.

[Yinnyth]

This brings me to my question. Should all jobs be given more balance to play a more varied part in the game? Give WHM more white magic attack/enfeeble spells, give PLD more dd properties, give DRK more defensive options like MNK and SAM?

My opinion is, and has always been, that all jobs should fill unique roles. If WHM is given more attack/enfeeble spells, then RDM and BLM deserve more healing/enhancing spells. If PLD is given more DD properties, then DDs deserve better defense. DRK already has defensive abilities unique to its niche.

Don't make every job the same. Make every job excel at something.

[Demon6324236]

My opinion is, and has always been, that all jobs should fill unique roles. If WHM is given more attack/enfeeble spells, then RDM and BLM deserve more healing/enhancing spells. If PLD is given more DD properties, then DDs deserve better defense. DRK already has defensive abilities unique to its niche.

Don't make every job the same. Make every job excel at something.

Part of this that is wrong, PLD, PLD does need more attack, because if the hate cap wasn't a problem with PLD being able to hold hate, its damage would defiantly be a problem. DDs these days do alot more than a PLD can hope to, and even with everything a PLD can do to try to hold hate, it wont matter, because it doesn't do enough damage to hold up that end.

[Zerich]

I feel like when the jobs were implemented they had a general idea for them, like drk pld thf blm and whm are the extremes of the roles, drk being DD, pld being tank, thf being evader, whm being healer and blm being nuker, they can do those roles better than anyone else but also they can't do anything else. The other jobs are kind of like hybrids, they are supposed to be able to fulfill multiple roles but not to as greater extent as the extreme jobs. So sam for example (please note this is all how it should work in theory, the game is broken) can DD, but not aswell as a drk and it can dodge, but not as well as a thf. The more roles a job can fill the less proficient it is compare to the extreme ones, like A well geared Blu will be as good as any badly geared job it is filling the role off, but it will never be as good as a well geared version of the job.

But lately these lines have been blurred and the extremists have lost the potential to fulfill their roles better than hybrids (e.g sam out damages drk) and the extremists have been getting developments in areas they don't need (whm and blm enfeebling) so it has become more efficient to use the hybrids which are outperforming the extremists in their roles and already being more efficient in the roles the extremists seem to be developing

So basically no I don't think they should bring the extreme jobs up in other skills, rather make them the best at what they do so they can outdo any other job at it, so a dnc solo (healer + evader) would not outdo a thf and whm combo, it could do they same stuff as that combo but it would be harder for it than it would be for a whm and thf. So essentially drk should be the best DD in the game but it should not have any tanking capabilities and so on.

I'm not saying they should gimp they hybrids, but rather that they should overpower the extremists in their particular area so a combo of two extremists will outdo one hybrid, which lately doesn't always seem to be the case.

no, because each job will become WHMs in their own respectable fields...just no

[Demon6324236]

Well honestly... Anything /SCH can heal as well as any healing job except WHM other than it doesn't have Cure IV, if it did, you could do the same healing as a RDM with can but with just /SCH... Just because Light Arts throws your skill way up and your able to use some cure pot gear on all jobs, like light staff...
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Wait I think I misunderstood what your saying, your saying that WHM should be super healer, but no one should be like that for what they do? WHM should be the best healer, its what it does, it heals. BLM should be the best nuker, its what it does, it blows shit up. DRK should be the DD, PLD should be the tank, and THF should be the EVA job. I will agree with that. I also agree that the lines were blurred. Look at the new replacements!

NIN, THF was eva tank, still can eva tank, but why does eva matter? I can have 0 EVA and the mob STILL not hit me without AoE if I have my shadows...

SAM has super TP build, so DRK HAS to go /SAM to actually fight with SAM DD wise, SAM can also use job abilities which allow self skillchaining, not 1, but 2 times in 5 minutes, 3 if you use Meditate correctly! DRK can... build TP slowly, not self SC without /SAM or items, not do much of anything in compare to SAM, SAM just wins.

PLD cant tank anymore, hate system was screwed, whats more, anything can tank in some events, because you have fantatics, atma+PDT or even Perfect Defense!

WHM has a close follower, good ol SCH comin up in 2nd place as best healer, 69 regen/tick and a Cure IV that hits like a truck make it more and more tempting!

SCH is also a close runner up on the BLM side of things, with weather/day bonus, obi, staff, and the like, you can easily get close to or past the damage a BLM does with nukes, and with Klimaform you have much more magic acc at your disposal.

This is just my view but I see this as correct, some jobs have lost their use or glamor due to other jobs pushing their way though and becoming stronger or more useful.

[Zerich]

Well honestly... Anything /SCH can heal as well as any healing job except WHM other than it doesn't have Cure IV, if it did, you could do the same healing as a RDM with can but with just /SCH... Just because Light Arts throws your skill way up and your able to use some cure pot gear on all jobs, like light staff.

No, not really. Unless you were level99 WAR/SCH PL-ing a dunes pt.

[Demon6324236]

No, not really. Unless you were level99 WAR/SCH PL-ing a dunes pt.

Those still exist? O.o However, /SCH gives you a large boost in healing magic skill which is the prime thing to effect cure power now, making it the best /mage for healing other than the non-existence of Cure IV, if it had Cure IV I'm sure it would be able to cure 500+ easy with a light staff and the like. Which seeing as thats more than RDM used to do and not all to much less than it does now without pot gear. I'm not saying a WAR/SCH can cure as a RDM can, I'm saying a BLM/SCH can heal about as well as a RDM can. My BLM can wear alot of my RDM's cure gear even, only change would be my RDM has more fast cast & Cure IV, other than that, not much else.

[Zerich]

Those still exist? O.o However, /SCH gives you a large boost in healing magic skill which is the prime thing to effect cure power now, making it the best /mage for healing other than the non-existence of Cure IV, if it had Cure IV I'm sure it would be able to cure 500+ easy with a light staff and the like. Which seeing as thats more than RDM used to do and not all to much less than it does now without pot gear. I'm not saying a WAR/SCH can cure as a RDM can, I'm saying a BLM/SCH can heal about as well as a RDM can. My BLM can wear alot of my RDM's cure gear even, only change would be my RDM has more fast cast & Cure IV, other than that, not much else.

Refresh2 (yes, it's lol) would most likely have the RDM pulling ahead of the BLM/SCH's sublimation and stoneskin combo for MP efficiency with healing. But still, RDM is broken in the exact opposite way that abby-WHM is broken.

[Fupafighter]

Sam can SC 2x off 1 meditate, 3-4 if you get some lucky hassozanshin procs fools >.>

[Demon6324236]

Sam can SC 2x off 1 meditate, 3-4 if you get some lucky hassozanshin procs fools >.>

This being the point, DRK was meant to be the full on DD, better than everything else at DDing. Instead SAM crushes it in solo DDing (say solo because SCs are much harder to pull off in partys like VW) and generally can WS a ton more often. Its somewhat balanced in 1 sense, DRK has magic as well and a way to heal itself without a certain sub. Problem being for it to try to match SAM, it has no choice but to /SAM itself. SAM can sub WAR for damage, DNC for self healing, basically any DD sub it wants, and not lose alot of potency to itself.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Refresh2 (yes, it's lol) would most likely have the RDM pulling ahead of the BLM/SCH's sublimation and stoneskin combo for MP efficiency with healing. But still, RDM is broken in the exact opposite way that abby-WHM is broken.

Is redundant in most recent content with SE's ability to make MP so easy to deal with.

Refresh II will forever be pants until they stop handing out temps to recover MP every 30 seconds.

[Cabalabob]

no, because each job will become WHMs in their own respectable fields...just no

That's kinda the point.. our jobs should be built to fulfill a specific role amazingly and no other role or multiple roles not as well. Whm is the best in the healing field cause it can't do much else (or shouldn't be able to) rdm and sch aren't as good at healing as a whm cause they can nuke/enfeeble aswell. The same should apply to all others in their specific roles, then you play with other people who fulfill roles that compliment your role (as MMORPG's are designed to be played) or you can play as a hybrid job to cover roles you might be missing or solo things that only need those roles

[Daniel_Hatcher]

That's kinda the point.. our jobs should be built to fulfill a specific role amazingly and no other role or multiple roles not as well. Whm is the best in the healing field cause it can't do much else (or shouldn't be able to) rdm and sch aren't as good at healing as a whm cause they can nuke/enfeeble aswell. The same should apply to all others in their specific roles, then you play with other people who fulfill roles that compliment your role (as MMORPG's are designed to be played) or you can play as a hybrid job to cover roles you might be missing or solo things that only need those roles

Not quite true.

[Yinnyth]

Part of this that is wrong, PLD, PLD does need more attack, because if the hate cap wasn't a problem with PLD being able to hold hate, its damage would defiantly be a problem. DDs these days do alot more than a PLD can hope to, and even with everything a PLD can do to try to hold hate, it wont matter, because it doesn't do enough damage to hold up that end.

My opinion is that this is more a problem with the way the hate system works. Even if a PLD could keep their hate up as high as the DDs, they'd only spend 1/(# of DDs + 1) of the time tanking because everyone caps very quickly. So no, I don't think PLDs deserve to do higher damage, I think the enmity system needs to be changed, and PLD needs to be given more non-damage tools for holding hate.

[Demon6324236]

My opinion is that this is more a problem with the way the hate system works. Even if a PLD could keep their hate up as high as the DDs, they'd only spend 1/(# of DDs + 1) of the time tanking because everyone caps very quickly. So no, I don't think PLDs deserve to do higher damage, I think the enmity system needs to be changed, and PLD needs to be given more non-damage tools for holding hate.

I did say that too...


Part of this that is wrong, PLD, PLD does need more attack, because if the hate cap wasn't a problem with PLD being able to hold hate, its damage would definitely be a problem. DDs these days do alot more than a PLD can hope to, and even with everything a PLD can do to try to hold hate, it wont matter, because it doesn't do enough damage to hold up that end.

I say damage shouldn't be the only way to hold hate but also I think PLD shouldn't only wait on ability or spell timers. If I had Provoke & Flash as my only things that take alot of hate to turn the mob to me (basically about all I got right now...) than all I do is use those... wait 30 seconds... voke... wait however flash recast is (depends on the lv of fastcast gear) use that, and keep waiting. Attacking mattering little because of PLDs awful damage output. But to me this feels like a very dry thing, and PLD deals so very little damage as of now, when everything else does so much, so whatever these hate tools are, would need to be fairly better than what we have now I would think.

[DaBackpack]

Suggestions to Square-Enix to restore these roles:

1.) The 'staggering' system was a nice touch to the game, but you need to stop with it. Three events revolving around it is more than enough. It is a cool little thing to add an element of uncertainty, but it is absolutely not a substitute for balancing jobs. Just because an alliance needs wyvern/jump procs does not mean DRG is useful again.

2.) There needs to be a way to increase the hate cap for certain jobs (namely Paladin). I'm sorry, but this is really one of the only solutions. It doesn't have to be MUCH higher, but it is unacceptable as it is. PLD should not exist only to supertank adds or occasionally Shield Bash stuff.

3.) I think the RDM enfeebling magic issue has been beaten to death already. It seems that there is no real remedy for this; on one hand, making enfeebles useful will make RDM useful. On the other hand, it would make kiting and such the way to handle tougher mobs. I'm a fan of RDM solos, but it would be too much to allow higher level content to be handled with kiting again. Maybe you should give RDM some other specialty that isn't hit or miss?

4.) To be honest, I think the best way to handle the balancing issue is to simultaneously release a lot of content at once. There is fundamentally no way to let a Paladin, a Thief, and a Dancer be useful at the same time (generally speaking). There should be
a.) Higher-level HNM-style content but without the 72-hour waiting times.
b.) An equally relevant low-man event that other niche-type jobs can excel at. There could just be different gear involved so there would be incentive to do the HNM types as well.

I claim that it's impossible to make all jobs equally (potentially) useful at any given event, considering how the game mechanics work at the moment. We just need different events that some could excel at, that aren't outdated. Individual job adjustments will still be needed, of course.

[Yinnyth]

My mistake. When you said "PLD does need more attack", I thought you meant that was the best solution. In your opinion, what is the best solution? If it involves increasing PLD's attack, I still oppose it. I think it should be done by changing the ways hate works, and changing the ways PLDs (and other jobs) manipulate it. Not by making PLD a better DD. That's what I'm getting at here. You said PLD needs more attack, I said "nuh uh". Or at least that's what I thought you said. But I definately said "nuh uh".

[Demon6324236]

My mistake. When you said "PLD does need more attack", I thought you meant that was the best solution. In your opinion, what is the best solution? If it involves increasing PLD's attack, I still oppose it. I think it should be done by changing the ways hate works, and changing the ways PLDs (and other jobs) manipulate it. Not by making PLD a better DD. That's what I'm getting at here. You said PLD needs more attack, I said "nuh uh". Or at least that's what I thought you said. But I definately said "nuh uh".

I don't really think that PLD should be DDing and I agree, hate needs to change how it works. But the reason why attack would be the easiest way to make PLD take hate though is because without making PLD just wait on timers, there is really no other way. For instance, if PLD had 3 high hate abilitys/spells (like Provoke & Flash) and can take almost no hate via melee then all you get is a job spamming these abilitys/spells, with little in between. This is imo a boring idea, you would want PLD to be fun to play, so you wouldn't want it to just be Provoke/Flash and get hit. Now I'm not saying make it a strong DD, not even a decent DD, but I think it should do some ok damage to hold up its hate.

As said, obviously the hate cap as of now is what kills PLD, it cant tank when everyone is capped on hate and the mob is spinning in circles between the 8 people attacking it. I think the hate cap should be raised 100 times as high as it is, it will be able to be hit, but it will take alot of time, not just 30 seconds... PLD should get its own version of provoke in ability form, lv55, takes 3 times the enmity of Provoke. PLD should also have a slightly higher hate cap so in the event it is hit, the PLD can still tank. Just has to play the job correctly.