In case meriting protectra V wasn't bad enough...

[Babekeke]

I was browsing through all of the augmented Relic +2 gear to see if any of the augments were good enough to consider any merit changes, and when I reached WHM I wasn't sure whether to be disgusted or just laugh at the "Augments Protectra V effect".

In case any of you haven't already seen (I didn't see a thread here about this already) here is what this amazing augment grants you...


Grants an additional +2 defense per merit up to a maximum of +10 for 5/5

So, protectra V gives 5 def over protectra 4 (at a cost of 19 mp more) and fully meriting it gives a massive +8 to that. now, by spending half your life in dyna on whm to get 20k exp, you can add a whole 10 more! for a grand total of 78 def from protectra V.

Am I the only person who thought SE had a great chance to make protectra worth meriting and completely messed it up?

All they had to do was make the augment -1~2% pdt per merit for a total of 5~10% at 5/5. THAT would have made it worth meriting. As it stands, it's only merited by ppl who can't be bothered to cast pro V on everyone, or sub SCH and use a stratagem. And then it's only ever 1 merit.

I'l, admit, I put a single merit into it for that 1 reason, but if I'd done my homework before-hand and seen it was only 5 def more than protectra 4, I'd have just bought protectra 4 and stuck with that.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

In this warped game you'd be laughed out of a party if you didn't do one merit in Protectra V and cast Protectra IV instead.

I don't disagree with you, though personally the protect line itself is messed up. Shell adds MDT as Protect should add PDT, then it'd make both worth meriting.

[SpankWustler]

To summarize the Development Bros' thoughts on defense, "Defense is useful! The giant mantis who lays eggs in the rice-cooker tells me so! Pants are tyranny!"

While Defense isn't as useless as it is often made out to be, it's still relatively bad compared to almost anything else and the guy who came up with all-things Protectra V should feel bad. I bet he's the guy behind Aggressive Aim, too!

[Llana_Virren]

by spending half your life in dyna on whm to get 20k exp

Now now, let's not exaggerate. You can get 20k EXP in Dyna in all of 10 days.

However, to anyone who decides (foolishly enough) to waste merits in Protectra V... I say this:

Light Arts -> Accession -> Protect V

[Babekeke]

Now now, let's not exaggerate. You can get 20k EXP in Dyna in all of 10 days.

I've probably only done dyna ~10 times since these trials came out, so that is half my life, lol

[Asymptotic]

I ... did a 20k dynamis XP trial in one dynamis run on SCH, curing/hasting my friend who was on MNK and a THF. They're really very easy trials.

Team up with someone who is farming the zone anyway (Friend was farming base relic dagger and random AF2). That said, I wouldn't do it if the augment wasn't worth it, and WHM *does* have pieces worth augmenting (Pants, for example).

[Return1]

How do you take more than 1-2 runs to finish a dyna trial? Especially with all the exp rings out there.

[Babekeke]

I've never tried one of these trials yet as the pieces I want to upgrade seem to completely elude me.
That said, I was duoing EP mobs in beaucedine with a friend for his trial. I was getting just over 30 exp per mob, but obviously he was using ring so getting ~70 per mob. He needed 7k exp to complete, and finished it after ~1H45. We weren't bothering too much about procs though. Only a few thf/mnk mobs we turned until we procced. If ppl are trying desperately to proc and get exp, they'll take longer.

[Economizer]

However, to anyone who decides (foolishly enough) to waste merits in Protectra V...

Now I'm one to talk, since for the longest time I was adamant that Protectra V merits are useless. But recently, since Devotion isn't really used as much, and the changes make it so you can put one merit in Devotion or Martyr and get the full timer, I've recently changed my merits to 1/5 Protectra, 1/5 Martyr, 3/5 Devotion.

Honestly, I don't think Accession Protect V is really worth the extra MP over a Protectra IV even (and it really bugs me when people would ask for what is essentially 5 extra defense, since anyone asking doesn't have a receives effect gear), so I don't really know that this is really "good" but I think it should be put another way... is it "bad"?

I don't think it is bad considering that you can now have Devotion, Martyr, and even a Protectra Merit while still having those ten minute timers. I don't think it is particularly good, but I don't rely on Devotion as much as I used to. Maybe if I started working on a Devotion build with the AF2 piece that boosts that I would change it back, but I don't feel particularly foolish for changing it for now.

[Mifaco]

They could have made it so much more useful with -%PDT merits, but they messed up.

I put one merit in Protectra V because of balance. It just looks stupid to cast Protectra IV and Shellra V. And it doesn't chain you to /SCH either.

[Babekeke]

It just looks stupid to cast Protectra IV and Shellra V. And it doesn't chain you to /SCH either.

I actually feel stupid because I felt the same way as you until 3 days ago when I saw how little difference there is between pro 4 and 5. I had always assumed that if pro4 was 65, pro5 MUST be 90~100 def to make it worthwhile.

Now that I know, I'll never complain at a pro 4 again.

[saevel]

I put one merit in Protectra V because of balance. It just looks stupid to cast Protectra IV and Shellra V. And it doesn't chain you to /SCH either.

Then you effectively only have 9 tier II merits for WHM. People are taking the exact same amount of damage. At least Devotion does something.

As for "never use it" speak for yourself, I love having a WHM with devotion. I frequently play DRK and love that they can completely restore my MP whenever I've run out. Also enjoy it when I'm playing BLU.

Martyr seems pointless now that they've adjusted healing skill on cures. It's a free Cure 3.5 basically, not really worth a merit slot. I went 5/5 Shellra V 5/5 Devotion.

Also /SCH is the best SJ for whm. /BLM has a use for stun / d2 should your event need it, but otherwise you should be glued to /SCH. LA and accession is amazing, DA Drain / Aspir is also amazing. So if you feel "chained" to /SCH then find a different job to play.

[Dantedmc]

Then you effectively only have 9 tier II merits for WHM. People are taking the exact same amount of damage. At least Devotion does something.

As for "never use it" speak for yourself, I love having a WHM with devotion. I frequently play DRK and love that they can completely restore my MP whenever I've run out. Also enjoy it when I'm playing BLU.

Martyr seems pointless now that they've adjusted healing skill on cures. It's a free Cure 3.5 basically, not really worth a merit slot. I went 5/5 Shellra V 5/5 Devotion.

Also /SCH is the best SJ for whm. /BLM has a use for stun / d2 should your event need it, but otherwise you should be glued to /SCH. LA and accession is amazing, DA Drain / Aspir is also amazing. So if you feel "chained" to /SCH then find a different job to play.

I haven't used devotion seriously in the longest time. It's usually used on the blm casting d2 for lols. Drk and blu won't be running out of mp in voidwatch and I haven't seen too many problems for blu in abyssea. Whm isn't invited to Nyzul Uncharted so thats out (funny because drk and blu are invited to that). If / when people start doing legion gl getting your whm to run up to you in AoE range, stop curing, devotion you and then run back. Don't act like devotion is some amazing merit. you can already get high numbers now with just 3/5 merits by increasing your hp or getting the augmented relic hat. Whm's only must merit skill is shellra V, The rest are eh.

As for the subjobs, sch is not the only one. Both /rdm and /sch (or even /blm in vw and abyssea) you won't run out of mp, So it just comes down to the situation. The main benefits of /sch are B+ enhancing and accession which is why it is my exclusive voidwatch sub. DA drain / aspir really shouldn't be the reason you sub sch.

In abyssea sometimes I /rdm for phalanx and mabII (catacleaving) or blind and unaddendumed dispel and as you've already said sometimes people /blm for easy travel and stun. In abyssea I don't find accession that useful with a small party. The small amount of +barspell or boost from B+ enhancing isn't really noticeable either. So while sch is very nice it's not the only subjob.

[Babekeke]

/BLM has a use for stun / Escape should your event need it

No event 'needs' D2. Exp comes so freely now, even death warp is the norm if a person has forgotten a warp scroll, warp cudgel, treat staff 2, maat's cap, duchal earring, tav ring, or whatever other warp items are available in this game now to carry.
Spamming Sky/Sea still does gain a significant benefit from escape though. It's just not all that popular any more.

Other than that i agree with what you say.


If / when people start doing legion gl getting your whm to run up to you in AoE range, stop curing, devotion you and then run back.

Or you could always run to the WHM and wait until they have a free second to hit you with devotion. After all, if you need the MP that badly (to cure yourself/Stun/Significantly increase damage), you're better off out of range of AOEs and not feeding TP.

[saevel]

The MP restoration is between fights not during. I get it during Abyssea / Dyna and whenever I'm screwing around doing whatever. Dyna is mostly from the WHM dual box healer, either mine or one of my partners. Abysea is because I'm not wasting an atma slot on a refresh atma.

[Economizer]

Also /SCH is the best SJ for whm.

Saevel, you're wrong so often it hurts. /NIN is the best SJ for WHM. :cool:

[Dantedmc]

The MP restoration is between fights not during. I get it during Abyssea / Dyna and whenever I'm screwing around doing whatever. Dyna is mostly from the WHM dual box healer, either mine or one of my partners. Abysea is because I'm not wasting an atma slot on a refresh atma.

I didn't include dynamis because most don't whm to it other that for trials and ADL shown by that fact that you're using a mule. There are also countless ways to regain mp in abyssea that don't involve using a refresh atma.


Or you could always run to the WHM and wait until they have a free second to hit you with devotion. After all, if you need the MP that badly (to cure yourself/Stun/Significantly increase damage), you're better off out of range of AOEs and not feeding TP.

Yes tell the pld who is holding a dangerous mob bring it back to all the mages and ranged and see how they respond or tell the drk to severely decrease his damage in a event where you need to do alot of damage in a short period of time. Even if it did work out, that's using devotion on two jobs in an event that no one currently does.

[saevel]

Saevel, you're wrong so often it hurts. /NIN is the best SJ for WHM. :cool:


So true, Mjollnir + STR Club + Realm is epicness.

[Llana_Virren]

Yes tell the pld who is holding a dangerous mob bring it back to all the mages and ranged and see how they respond or tell the drk to severely decrease his damage in a event where you need to do alot of damage in a short period of time. Even if it did work out, that's using devotion on two jobs in an event that no one currently does.

Typically, the mob the PLD is holding is an add, and he won't burn out all of his MP holding it because no one else is fighting it.

As for the DRK, the issue is that you can Devotion him (or the PLD, or the BLU, or whoever, really) but you're not doing it every 3 minutes... if as a WHM you cannot time -when- to approach, or as a DRK or BLU, you cannot figure out that 3 seconds of stepping away will not hurt the team, you'll be fine.

Devotion is not done every 3 or 5 minutes, so freaking out about hurting your precious DoT is irrelevant. If you -need- the MP, that means you -need- the MP. You have to figure out what is more important, your MP, or your TP. As I said, the 3-5 seconds it takes to get into Devotion range is such a non-issue I'm surprised someone tried to bring it up at all.

[Dantedmc]

Typically, the mob the PLD is holding is an add, and he won't burn out all of his MP holding it because no one else is fighting it.

So we're lowering the number of jobs devotion is used on to drk (since you said pld won't need it and its unlikely the blu will be in the same pt as the whm).

Also I love how we skipped over the major point of my post that devotion is rarely used and does not need to be 5/5'd, which must be true since all we can talk about is a hypothetical situation in an event that is hardly ever done. Truth of the matter is the only merit that really matters is 5/5 shellra V.

[Llana_Virren]

So we're lowering the number of jobs devotion is used on to drk (since you said pld won't need it and its unlikely the blu will be in the same pt as the whm).

Also I love how we skipped over the major point of my post that devotion is rarely used and does not need to be 5/5'd, which must be true since all we can talk about is a hypothetical situation in an event that is hardly ever done. Truth of the matter is the only merit that really matters is 5/5 shellra V.

I use it as soon as the need arises. Will this be exactly in 10 minute intervals? Maybe, maybe not. It would depend on what I'm doing.

The issue (and the argument which was presented) is that Shellra V and Devotion are the only things in that category of any benefit to merit, not that Devotion is somehow vital to the effort.

[Babekeke]

Then you effectively only have 9 tier II merits for WHM. People are taking the exact same amount of damage. At least Devotion does something.

When low-manning NMs in abyssea for grellow, the BLM/BRD will be very thankful of devotion, especially if you're fighting a mob that can't be aspir'd.

When you get really unlucky on procs on a VWNM like Pil and can't get your temps back, everyone's going to get short of MP.

Like Llana said, this isn't about how necessary Devotion is, it's about how ridiculously stupid and under-powered protectra 5 is! It should have a boost of at least 15 IMO to the base def before merits for it to even be worth 1/5.

[Dantedmc]

When low-manning NMs in abyssea for grellow, the BLM/BRD will be very thankful of devotion, especially if you're fighting a mob that can't be aspir'd.

If your blm is /brd (which is fine) they should be there for procs and gear their atmas appropriately. Don't really see how the blm is dying for mp with up to 20tic atma refresh as well as all of the other ways to restore mp. If this is such a big deal I guess all whms should /rdm now just for refresh to give +600mp every 10 mins when the need arises.


When you get really unlucky on procs on a VWNM like Pil and can't get your temps back, everyone's going to get short of MP.

I don't know how you run out of mp in voidwatch. 2 lucid ether IIs (500mp each), 1 lucid ether III(1000mp ), 2 mana powders, and a mana mist EVERY hq proc. devotion wouldn't really help in this situation anyway since it's party only and giving the drk mp doesn't usually life or death and the blu and blm are in the mage pt.

[Esvedium]

In this warped game you'd be laughed out of a party if you didn't do one merit in Protectra V and cast Protectra IV instead.

I'd laugh at someone if they cast Protectra5 instead of -ra4 or ascension prot5. There is never a reason for protectra5.

[Insaniac]

The solution is -1-2% pdt per extra merit in Tectra5 and -0.5% pdt per merit added with the augmented feet. 99% of ffxi problems are solved with 2 seconds of rational thought.

[Babekeke]

The solution is -1-2% pdt per extra merit in Tectra5 and -0.5% pdt per merit added with the augmented feet. 99% of ffxi problems are solved with 2 seconds of rational thought.

This is pretty much what I said in the OP^^

[Insaniac]

This is pretty much what I said in the OP^^
Yar, I agree with the pdt idea and have been saying that for years. I think they should give people a reason without the augmented feet to put more than one merit in so most of the pdt should be from the extra merits and a little more from the augment. Just like shell v.

[Babekeke]

Unfortunately, that's common sense.

[Asymptotic]

So true, Mjollnir + STR Club + Realm is epicness.

We mathed it out and Kraken club comes out waaaaaayyy ahead of STR club, just for reference. I was surprised myself.

[InsideOut]

It really should be stronger but wtf is with all of this nonsense about using one of your two initial stratagems to Protect V your own party? :confused:

If you are doing that then you might as well hit your Protectra IV macro to save yourself some time, MP, and a stratagem.

[Llana_Virren]

It really should be stronger but wtf is with all of this nonsense about using one of your two initial stratagems to Protect V your own party? :confused:

If you are doing that then you might as well hit your Protectra IV macro to save yourself some time, MP, and a stratagem.

What exactly are you saving this strategem for (which is regained in 30sec)? You use this strategem at the same time your BRDs/CORs are rotating. Nothing is going to require two strategem uses within the first 30sec of a fight... so just use it like it's meant to be used.

Also, you're not saving any time because this is pre-start, and you're not saving any MP because you refresh to full on VW start... or you auto-refresh/refresh-effect it back over time. Really, are you trying to say that "Protect"-ing your party is a waste of MP?

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[Economizer]

Really, are you trying to say that "Protect"-ing your party is a waste of MP?

I don't know about what that person is trying to say, but yes.


Honestly, I don't think Accession Protect V is really worth the extra MP over a Protectra IV even

Accession Protect V over Protectra IV is a waste of MP. The only time you should do it is if you are willing to waste MP for something that is useless.

[InsideOut]

Llana_Virren, Accession triples your MP cost. The only time I don't think it would matter is at the start of Voidwatch because all MP is replenished. But after that, and during other events, its a wasteful move.


I don't know about what that person is trying to say, but yes.


Accession Protect V over Protectra IV is a waste of MP. The only time you should do it is if you are willing to waste MP for something that is useless.
That is what I just said, so I'm pretty sure you understand.
"...you might as well hit your Protectra IV macro to save yourself some time, MP, and a stratagem."

[Llana_Virren]

If you-re not doing VW, or you're the only WHM in your alliance (the latter of the two makes me nervous) then I can understand the concern over MP cost... to a point. When you have over 1300MP you have the time to restore whatever MP is lost on buffs... now if we're talking "oh crap he dispellga'd all our buffs" then obviously I wouldn't suggest a WHM run into the thick of the battle to Shellra V, Accession, Protect V... mp be damned, that's more time in the killzone.

But we weren't talking about the MP cost (although in many circumstances it can be an issue). The crux of the issue was merits in Protectra V being crap being SE borked merits, making Protectra V merits less-than-useful. Yes, 1 merit is less useful in Protectra V than 5/5 Devotion is.

I understand the valid point you're making that (some) circumstances do not justify the cost of Accession>Protect V; but the original remarks were with regards to merits on Protectra V.

Again, not considering the crazy circumstances of:
1. Only 1 WHM in alliance;
2. Recasting Pro/Shell mid-fight; or
3. Not having enough time between buff and fight start (which... unless you're in a wierd battlefield like NI, you should always have time),
then Accession>Protect V will be more useful than merits in Protectra V.

[InsideOut]

Again, not considering the crazy circumstances of:
1. Only 1 WHM in alliance;
2. Recasting Pro/Shell mid-fight; or
3. Not having enough time between buff and fight start (which... unless you're in a wierd battlefield like NI, you should always have time),
then Accession>Protect V will be more useful than merits in Protectra V.

http://i43.tinypic.com/r1kigz.gif

[Okipuit]

Hey everyone!

We reviewed your feedback and we are considering adjustments so that the effect of Protect becomes stronger in the future. The benefits of the current Protectra V feel low because the upgrades are based on a static value. One direction we are exploring is to make the defense increase based on a percentage rather than a static amount. Thank you for the suggestions and please keep them coming. :)

[Aleste]

The benefits of the current Protectra V feel low because the upgrades are based on a static value. One direction we are exploring is to make the defense increase based on a percentage rather than a static amount.

Change it to have some inherent -PDT% and you've got an even better quick fix.

Protect(ra) X = -2X% PDT
Merits = -1% PDT/merit
Cleric duckbills +2 = -1%PDT/merit

[Retsujo]

I cannot believe our voices have finally been heard! Please keep us updated, Okiput!

[Llana_Virren]

http://i43.tinypic.com/r1kigz.gif

If that gif is any indication of how your WHM looks at his/her keyboard while you're all dying, then I can understand your concern for miniscule MP values. Aside from that, thank you for justifying my argument.

[Babekeke]

Hey everyone!

We reviewed your feedback and we are considering adjustments so that the effect of Protect becomes stronger in the future. The benefits of the current Protectra V feel low because the upgrades are based on a static value. One direction we are exploring is to make the defense increase based on a percentage rather than a static amount. Thank you for the suggestions and please keep them coming. :)

Wow, I have to be honest, when I started this thread I was just in a rage of red mist when I saw how ridiculous the augment on the relic +2 feet was, and never for 1 moment thought that it would get a response. Thanks for the reply and I hope that if SE does decide to make the merits of protect work on a % instead, that the augment on the feet will at least add in some -% Damage Taken, rather than adding more defense.

[Dragoy]

Odds are there is a more or less of a 'carbon copy' of the topic over at the Japanese side. ^^;

I would imagine they're just as annoyed by this as we are, and I even think they mention in the past that they are looking into something like this... perhaps that was defence in general, but either way, it's good they're looking into it, finally!

(Not saying we shouldn't keep voicing our stuff or anything, but yeah!)

[Babekeke]

Odds are there is a more or less of a 'carbon copy' of the topic over at the Japanese side. ^^;

I assume so, too.


I even think they mention in the past that they are looking into something like this... perhaps that was defence in general, but either way, it's good they're looking into it, finally!

I recall there was a lot of discussion about defence in general when they changed the COR rolls, (PLD roll in particular)

[InsideOut]

If that gif is any indication of how your WHM looks at his/her keyboard while you're all dying, then I can understand your concern for miniscule MP values. Aside from that, thank you for justifying my argument.

Activating a job ability, while wasting a stratagem, so you can use triple MP for one spell that already has an AoE version, doesn't sound so minuscule. But then again, I don't have a problem with being the sole whm, recasting spells midfight, or any of those other crazy circumstances.
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3ezz39Exb1r3ty02o1_400.gif


Hey everyone!

We reviewed your feedback and we are considering adjustments so that the effect of Protect becomes stronger in the future. The benefits of the current Protectra V feel low because the upgrades are based on a static value. One direction we are exploring is to make the defense increase based on a percentage rather than a static amount. Thank you for the suggestions and please keep them coming. :)

Amazing. Can't wait.:cool:

[Llana_Virren]

But then again, I don't have a problem with being the sole whm, recasting spells midfight, or any of those other crazy circumstances.

Exactly. If we're not having an issue with being the sole whm, or recasting spells, then why is the MP cost an issue again?
Either MP is an issue, or it isn't. Saying "it costs too much MP, therefore your idea is stupid" while simultaneously saying "I don't have any MP issues" invalidates your original argument.

I'd assume that is supposed to be a cigarette, but considering how totally oblivious to logic you are, I'm gooint to assume it's been laced with something.

That, and .gif aren't really needed on an official forum except to distract readers from the fallacy of your argument.

[InsideOut]

Exactly. If we're not having an issue with being the sole whm, or recasting spells, then why is the MP cost an issue again?
Either MP is an issue, or it isn't. Saying "it costs too much MP, therefore your idea is stupid" while simultaneously saying "I don't have any MP issues" invalidates your original argument.

I'd assume that is supposed to be a cigarette, but considering how totally oblivious to logic you are, I'm gooint to assume it's been laced with something.

That, and .gif aren't really needed on an official forum except to distract readers from the fallacy of your argument.

This is about you going through an unnecessary effort to give your party an AoE buff, which triples your MP cost and uses a stratagem, all for a spell that you consider to be useless. lol It's just odd and wasteful.

Then there is the issue of you considering it crazy to be the sole WHM, rebuff your party midfight, and have 2 or fewer primary healers in your alliance. It seems as if you are the one having MP or whatever problems in normal alliance setups.

I doubt enough people read these forums so I have no reason to put on a show. I use the .gifs because they make me smile. You use a stratagem to AoE Protect V your own party but, at the time, say that "Protectra V sucks". What you need to do is recreate that lv63 Protectra IV macro and relax. Its not that serious.
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3zm1oCsVF1r3ty02o1_500.gif

[Llana_Virren]

A bunch of nonsense.

Since you're really trying to ignore the whole point of what I was saying, I'll really try to explain it once more.

Protectra V as a merit option is a waste of merits. Protect V is not a waste of MP. Enhancing party defense is not a wasted effort, which is why I use Accession>Protect V over Protectra IV. Also, I have absolutely no MP issues inside or outside of Abyssea/VW instances, because I know what I'm doing. Using a strategem before a fight is not a waste... you're not using it on anything else at that point anyway.

"But you can Accession>Shell V the mage party". Yes, I could, but that would be a waste of MP, since they should be outside of the casting/aura radius anyway.

"But what about rebuffing during a fight?" If I have to combat-cast a buff midfight and run into the red zone, I'm going to use Protectra IV due to time expedience. However, I may also do an Accession>Run in>Protect V if I think I have the time or if it is safe to do so. Obviously conditions such as timing, current MP, etc will play a factor, however I will always make an effort to give my party the most bang for any spell I cast.

"But what if you're the only WHM in your alliance?" Then obviously what you do will depend on how well you can hold your MP while keeping people alive. In my case, Accession>Protect V does not hurt that balance, so I do it. If I find myself in a situation where it would be unwise to do so, then obviously I will not do it. However, it is not always unwise to do so. However, it is always unwise to not give your party and/or alliance 100%.

"Its not that serious." Not to you perhaps, but I like to be great at WHM, not just good at it. And while your .gif craze might be humorous, they don't actually add anything to your post except make them less serious.

The moral of the story: WHM is serious to me. Obviously, with my gameplay and experience, I have found the benefit of Accession>Protect V to outweigh the cost (both literally and figuratively). If that does not work for you, so be it; however it does not change the fact that Protectra V was a poorly designed spell that does not warrant the merits, which was the point of this thread. Proof: SE might actually fix it.

So, that being said, you're arguing something that doesn't apply to the situation at hand; you're debating MP usage when MP usage is not an issue, and you're contesting that Pro4 is better than any form of Pro5 due simply to the convenience of casting it.

I take WHM seriously, so if that's the difference between us let's just leave it there, shall we?

[InsideOut]

Protect V/Protectra V sucks because ,as we all know, it only gives +5 defense over Protect IV. Since you are willing to use 252MP and a stratagem for a spell that only cost 84MP, surely unlocking Protectra V by taking a merit out of Devotion would be a smart move.

I am a serious white mage. I have played it for years and gone out of my way to obtain Arka I, Arka II, and Arka IV light staff trials. My recast on CureIV is 2seconds. CureV is lowered down to 3 seconds. With double march, those recast timers go down a full second respectively. I've also gotten the Vishrava II staff(Earth Recast) just so I can keep up Accession+Stonekskin during stagger procs. I'm currently working on the Wind Recast equivalent to lower my Haste times. Its overkill but WHM is my love and I play it very very well.

Yes, I find your play style to be questionably silly. I take pride in my whm and the way I play it. For you to imply that you are somehow on another level is an insult.

[Babekeke]

I don't understand why you bother with protect in any shape or form for VW... everyone should be full-timing fanatics. I tend to play melee jobs at least 50% of my time now, and personally, I never even ask for protect of any form due to the very little difference that it makes. The 1 exception for me is in WoE on DRG/BLU using a rabbit pie I can get close to 1k def with pro v. But that's because every 1 def with cocoon and def food = 2.25 def (up to the food cap at least).

[InsideOut]

Babekeke, you know there are many times when you have all the right proccing jobs but somehow seem to go 5mins without a single proc. Its like praying to Altana for a voidwatch body drop. I'm sure it helps even if you don't notice.+ ;)

[Dantedmc]

Since you're really trying to ignore the whole point of what I was saying, I'll really try to explain it once more.

Protectra V as a merit option is a waste of merits. Protect V is not a waste of MP. Enhancing party defense is not a wasted effort, which is why I use Accession>Protect V over Protectra IV. Also, I have absolutely no MP issues inside or outside of Abyssea/VW instances, because I know what I'm doing. Using a strategem before a fight is not a waste... you're not using it on anything else at that point anyway.

"But you can Accession>Shell V the mage party". Yes, I could, but that would be a waste of MP, since they should be outside of the casting/aura radius anyway.

"But what about rebuffing during a fight?" If I have to combat-cast a buff midfight and run into the red zone, I'm going to use Protectra IV due to time expedience. However, I may also do an Accession>Run in>Protect V if I think I have the time or if it is safe to do so. Obviously conditions such as timing, current MP, etc will play a factor, however I will always make an effort to give my party the most bang for any spell I cast.

"But what if you're the only WHM in your alliance?" Then obviously what you do will depend on how well you can hold your MP while keeping people alive. In my case, Accession>Protect V does not hurt that balance, so I do it. If I find myself in a situation where it would be unwise to do so, then obviously I will not do it. However, it is not always unwise to do so. However, it is always unwise to not give your party and/or alliance 100%.

"Its not that serious." Not to you perhaps, but I like to be great at WHM, not just good at it. And while your .gif craze might be humorous, they don't actually add anything to your post except make them less serious.

The moral of the story: WHM is serious to me. Obviously, with my gameplay and experience, I have found the benefit of Accession>Protect V to outweigh the cost (both literally and figuratively). If that does not work for you, so be it; however it does not change the fact that Protectra V was a poorly designed spell that does not warrant the merits, which was the point of this thread. Proof: SE might actually fix it.

So, that being said, you're arguing something that doesn't apply to the situation at hand; you're debating MP usage when MP usage is not an issue, and you're contesting that Pro4 is better than any form of Pro5 due simply to the convenience of casting it.

I take WHM seriously, so if that's the difference between us let's just leave it there, shall we?

You take whm seriously, but you don't think casting -24.2% mdt on the entire mage party is more important than casting 60 defense on your melee party, even though you can do both if you would just put one merit into Protectra V. I think you need to get your priorities straight.

[Llana_Virren]

You take whm seriously, but you don't think casting -24.2% mdt on the entire mage party is more important than casting 60 defense on your melee party, even though you can do both if you would just put one merit into Protectra V. I think you need to get your priorities straight.

One merit in Protectra V does not a full potency Protectra V make. That's why we're looking at potential revisions to the spell. But using mediocre merits for the sake of helping your party isn't the answer. The point of this entire thread is how underdeveloped Protectra V is. Subscribing to "just put 1 merit in it" proves that point; and I have no desire to hinder my merit choices for the sake humoring those who are proving in each passing post they they don't care about being better than "ok" at WHM.

[Llana_Virren]

Yes, I find your play style to be questionably silly. I take pride in my whm and the way I play it. For you to imply that you are somehow on another level is an insult.

I imply nothing. You yourself said "its not that serious." If you take WHM seriously, it should be apparent in your posts (which it was not). I have nothing against different styles of gameplay, however I'm not going to support putting merits in a useless spell (useless due to its underwhelming design); and clearly enough of the playerbase has expressed this view, as we're seeing SE working on possible enhancements to the spell.

So while Accession>Protect V may cost more MP, it is MP I can afford to use. I don't view it as a waste of MP or strategem because I am not using that MP or strategem for anything else at that point, and I regain both before anything bad happens (like no MP or strategem available); so again, there is no actual loss there, despite your argument to the contrary.

When you poke and prod a player with weak logic and snobby attitude, you really shouldn't be offended (or suprised, to be honest) when the favor is returned.

The point remains that Protectra V isn't worth a single merit, the majority of WHMs here agree, and SE is reviewing potential changes. Those are the facts as they stand, no matter how any of us play WHM.

[saevel]

Why are people acting like Accession Protect V is somehow bad <.<

The spell lasts 30min and is cast before any major engagement. If your fighting something that dispel's buffs then Protect will be the last buff to be put back up.

[InsideOut]

I imply nothing. You yourself said "its not that serious." If you take WHM seriously, it should be apparent in your posts (which it was not). I have nothing against different styles of gameplay, however I'm not going to support putting merits in a useless spell (useless due to its underwhelming design); and clearly enough of the playerbase has expressed this view, as we're seeing SE working on possible enhancements to the spell.

So while Accession>Protect V may cost more MP, it is MP I can afford to use. I don't view it as a waste of MP or strategem because I am not using that MP or strategem for anything else at that point, and I regain both before anything bad happens (like no MP or strategem available); so again, there is no actual loss there, despite your argument to the contrary.

When you poke and prod a player with weak logic and snobby attitude, you really shouldn't be offended (or suprised, to be honest) when the favor is returned.

The point remains that Protectra V isn't worth a single merit, the majority of WHMs here agree, and SE is reviewing potential changes. Those are the facts as they stand, no matter how any of us play WHM.

You misunderstood. I said "its not that serious" meaning that wasting a stratagem to Accession+ Protect V your party is unnecessary, not the white mage job itself. The only thing in Group 2 worth meriting 5/5 is Shellra V. There are not enough situations to warrant Devotion 5/5 so its difficult to understand how someone who is so serious about the white mage job won't drop a single merit in Protectra V, especially when they see the value in it enough to Accession+ Protect V their own party.

Everyone in this thread, including myself, have said that Protectra V is crap but those of us who want that +5 defense bonus have tossed a merit in it because there is nothing else in that category that is worth 5/5 merits. Play around it however you want. For your play style, unlocking Protectra V will save time, MP, and a stratagem. Or you can stop being a sheep and cast your protectra IV with pride.Those are the facts.

[Llana_Virren]

Or you can stop being a sheep and cast your protectra IV with pride.Those are the facts.

I stopped being a sheep when I tossed my 1/5 Protectra V merit.

[InsideOut]

Why are people acting like Accession Protect V is somehow bad <.<

The spell lasts 30min and is cast before any major engagement. If your fighting something that dispel's buffs then Protect will be the last buff to be put back up.

When all a WHM has to do is toss a single merit in Protectra V to unlock the spell, yes.
Using Accession + Protect V takes time, MP, and effort to get off a single single.

If WHM had a single (1) merit option for an AoE Stoneskin that did nothing but cast regular old Stoneskin to all surrounding party members (no extra strength) I think some of you would be singing a different tune to this same song.

[InsideOut]

I stopped being a sheep when I tossed my 1/5 Protectra V merit.

Being wasteful does not suit a serious white mage.
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m54tpbMlNJ1r2b77r.gif

[Llana_Virren]

When all a WHM has to do is toss a single merit in Protectra V to unlock the spell, yes.
Using Accession + Protect V takes time, MP, and effort to get off a single single.

If WHM had a single (1) merit option for an AoE Stoneskin that did nothing but cast regular old Stoneskin to all surrounding party members (no extra strength) I think some of you would be singing a different tune to this same song.

Quick trivia question: which one would be a useful merit allocation, and which one wouldn't?

Wasting a merit on Protectra V when even Martyr would do more good in the long run does not a frugal WHM make.

[InsideOut]

Quick trivia question: which one would be a useful merit allocation, and which one wouldn't?

Wasting a merit on Protectra V when even Martyr would do more good in the long run does not a frugal WHM make.

Putting a merit in Protectra V saves me from having to waste time, MP, and a stratagem. What does not putting a merit in Protectra V do for you except slow you down?
Do leaders stick you in the mages party often enough to make Devotion 5/5 worth it? I'm starting to see why they would do that. . .

[Llana_Virren]

I'm in the main party, actually, we don't have any healers in the mage party (unless you count the SCHs?) unless you're talking about a Bismark run in which I Devo the PLD who's supertanking the babies... other than that, I don't actually waste MP or a Strategem (although you keep saying it's a waste, without saying what else I should be using them for pre-fight).

Funny thing is, you're more against me doing Accession than I am against putting merits in Protectra V. Hmm....

[Babekeke]

At the end of the day, the only reason that people bother with a merit in protectra V over accession or just pro 4 is that neither Martyr or Devotion ever get enough use. Unless, of course Legion requirements are different. There are no atmas/atmacites there, and also no temps. Devotion may well be a much higher requirement in Legion?

The alternative to fixing defense, would have been to make devotion target alliance members too! Do both and then we will be torn between which is more useful once again :D

[InsideOut]

^ That would be badass if it ever happened.


I'm in the main party, actually, we don't have any healers in the mage party (unless you count the SCHs?) unless you're talking about a Bismark run in which I Devo the PLD who's supertanking the babies... other than that, I don't actually waste MP or a Strategem (although you keep saying it's a waste, without saying what else I should be using them for pre-fight).

Funny thing is, you're more against me doing Accession than I am against putting merits in Protectra V. Hmm....

*retracts claws*
I use stratagems a lot. Even after I've Accession+Stoneskin my party and Accession+ShellV a party in need, I am still waiting for a new stratagem to come in so I can Cure4-ga another party and use penury Cure6 on my strongest DDs so they receive a capped stoneskin effect. If someone dies, I'd like to have Celerity ready so I can cast raise within a few seconds. When Red or White staggers are trigged, that is my time to rush in and recast Stoneskin on my party(and other buffs).There are so many slow and crappy white mages out there who might as well be mules or dual boxing another character in two separate voidwatch runs.lol

Even if using Accession to protect your party does not affect your ability as a white mage, it is still wasting triple your MP, you are having to hit a job ability before you can Protect your party, and you are using a stratagem. Putting a merit in Protectra V is silly but I get more use out of that +5 defense than I have ever gotten out of Devotion.

[Dantedmc]

One merit in Protectra V does not a full potency Protectra V make. That's why we're looking at potential revisions to the spell. But using mediocre merits for the sake of helping your party isn't the answer. The point of this entire thread is how underdeveloped Protectra V is. Subscribing to "just put 1 merit in it" proves that point; and I have no desire to hinder my merit choices for the sake humoring those who are proving in each passing post they they don't care about being better than "ok" at WHM.

Don't really see what you're saying. 1 Merit in Protectra V is the same as Protect V, 60 Defense. If you can't realize that 24.2% mdt on another party is much better and that you can have both then I think you need to stop calling others the "ok" whms. The fact that you would rather not give the entire mage party shell V then drop 5% potency from an ability that is hardly ever used is silly.

It's also getting really old how anyone who disagrees with you is somehow an "ok" whm. No my whm is not as geared as my sch, but it has appropriate gear. I have 50% potency with the +2 body, I have -80% cct, capped enhancing for boosts, and near capped for barspells. I have all my refresh idle gear. Just because someone doesn't feel like 5/5'ing an ability they may never use doesn't make them any less of a whm.

[saevel]

The difference is that at least Devotion does ~something~, regardless of how little you think it is. 1 in Protectra V is the same as you only have 9 Tier II merits. Difference between it and Protectra IV is so little that it effectively doesn't exist, functionally it's the same, thus your spending a merit point on a spell you already have.

[Dantedmc]

First, the difference from one merit in devotion is < 100 mp (around 50-75 mp) unless you have an mp+ set that is wasting inventory. That's not doing really much, especially when IT IS NEVER USED!

Second, I was comparing protectra V to accession protect V, because LLana had stated that he/she would rather accession protect V his or her own party, than use shell V on the mage party, with the excuse that the mage party should never be in range. If you can't find an issue with that than I don't know.

[InsideOut]

saevel, if someone refuses to unlock Protectra V then at least be smart enough to use Protectra IV instead of Accession + Protect V. That is a ridiculous move.

That's(5/5 merits in Devotion) not doing really much, especially when IT IS NEVER USED!

Second, I was comparing protectra V to accession protect V, because LLana had stated that he/she would rather accession protect V his or her own party, than use shell V on the mage party, with the excuse that the mage party should never be in range. If you can't find an issue with that than I don't know.

Exactly. No matter how it's flipped, a WHM using Accession+ Protect V on their own party is just wasteful.

[saevel]

I've used Devotion constantly on my cure mule. During various runs I've asked my WHM's to devotion me. I'm living breathing proof that Devotion has a use, rather niche but it's use does exist. Protectra V has no use, its a merit for a spell you already have. As having devotion does not impair your performance, nor does it interfere with Shellra V, any use it would have would effectively be greater then 0, thus Devotion > Protectra V. If the reasoning to having Protectra V is "to have all my spells" then that's fine, I won't begrudge that, just state it as such and then attempt to argue that something with no value is worth more then something with little value.

Accession Protect V matters absolutely not a lick, it's 30min duration spell that's cast prior to any event actually happening. It's MP cost and Time / Recast are meaningless as they don't effect the actual event. In the middle of the event you won't be recasting it, period. You might as well argue that a WHM should be wearing their full refresh idle set outside of events when their at full MP.

[Llana_Virren]

Second, I was comparing protectra V to accession protect V, because LLana had stated that he/she would rather accession protect V his or her own party, than use shell V on the mage party, with the excuse that the mage party should never be in range. If you can't find an issue with that than I don't know.

Typically speaking the second DD party has had a WHM (or we have a SCH who puts shell on them) so I don't need to Accession>Shell V the second party. The third (mage) party however shouldn't be getting hit with anything; or they can keep Fools' up. There's no need to Accession a spell to a party that isn't going to actually benefit from said spell, with the exception of course of enclosed battlefields where no one can get out of magic range. But those are special circumstances, not ever day occurrences.

[Dragoy]

What comes to Devotion, I recently took off the full merits from Protectra to give that one a bit more of a boost since Protect isn't exactly as useful as it should be.

I usually play in a 3-4 member party, so anyone can figure there are times that Devotion is of use.
As for events with more people, it's likely not nearly as useful fer sure. I guess it is more of a low-man or woman party thing, unless a group especially plans a strategy using it to their advantage, which they don't.


Blubb.

[InsideOut]

I agree Dragoy. Devotions main use is in small parties or when playing in big battles where a Paladin is truly expected to tank.

I've used Devotion constantly on my cure mule. During various runs I've asked my WHM's to devotion me. I'm living breathing proof that Devotion has a use, rather niche but it's use does exist. Protectra V has no use, its a merit for a spell you already have. As having devotion does not impair your performance, nor does it interfere with Shellra V, any use it would have would effectively be greater then 0, thus Devotion > Protectra V. If the reasoning to having Protectra V is "to have all my spells" then that's fine, I won't begrudge that, just state it as such and then attempt to argue that something with no value is worth more then something with little value.

Accession Protect V matters absolutely not a lick, it's 30min duration spell that's cast prior to any event actually happening. It's MP cost and Time / Recast are meaningless as they don't effect the actual event. In the middle of the event you won't be recasting it, period. You might as well argue that a WHM should be wearing their full refresh idle set outside of events when their at full MP.

There are many mobs that dispel buffs during events. In Legion, buffs are constantly being dispelled and since we do not have the luxury of temp items or refresh atmas, wasteful MP is an issue. You will have to recast Protectra between waves and right before your DDs begin to fight another NM that turns them into MP sponges. My idle set has 8 to 9 MP Refresh and sometimes that is not enough to keep up in Legion because we spam cures and curagas as we hop from NM to NM. During these fights you are better off using your stratagems for cure related purposes and Accession+Stoneskin, not wasting 252 MP and a stratagem on an 84MP spell that you should have already have (Protectra IV or V).

[saevel]

I agree Dragoy. Devotions main use is in small parties or when playing in big battles where a Paladin is truly expected to tank.


There are many mobs that dispel buffs during events. In Legion, buffs are constantly being dispelled and since we do not have the luxury of temp items or refresh atmas, wasteful MP is an issue. You will have to recast Protectra between waves and right before your DDs begin to fight another NM that turns them into MP sponges. My idle set has 8 to 9 MP Refresh and sometimes that is not enough to keep up in Legion because we spam cures and curagas as we hop from NM to NM. During these fights you are better off using your stratagems for cure related purposes and Accession+Stoneskin, not wasting 252 MP and a stratagem on an 84MP spell that you should have already have (Protectra IV or V).

Are you hard of hearing (err seeing)? Or just practicing enforced ignorance?

I've stated multiple times that you won't be casting that mid-battle, ever. Should you get debuffed, Protect will be the last spell to be reapplied. It's effect is nearly negligible as it is, shell / haste / barspells (if applicable) are vastly most important. I'd even pick an accessioned Regen IV over Protect.

I could of swore I said something to that effect a page or so ago.

[InsideOut]

Are you hard of hearing (err seeing)? Or just practicing enforced ignorance?

I've stated multiple times that you won't be casting that mid-battle, ever. Should you get debuffed, Protect will be the last spell to be reapplied. It's effect is nearly negligible as it is, shell / haste / barspells (if applicable) are vastly most important. I'd even pick an accessioned Regen IV over Protect.

I could of swore I said something to that effect a page or so ago.

You said it but I dismissed it as unrealistic bullcrap that does not fly during actual gameplay.
In the real White Mage world, we keep our party members Protected, Shelled, Boosted, and fully buffed the first chance we get after that buff has worn.

You should really change your crappy play style, or maybe its not your play style that you are defending. This would make perfect sense since you are aruging that reapplying a Protect buff during mid battle is something that should never be done. lol Either you are delusional or just an all around sucky player.

Because you have very little knowledge about practical white mage gameplay, I'll just accept that you are only here to defend your silly friend.

[saevel]

Ahh your one of those players

Click Name
Add to Ignore

Profit!

[SpankWustler]

The Shell, Boost, Bar-, etc. lines all have easily quantifiable and measurable effects. Those effects may not be astronomical in the case of the Boost line, but it's still easy enough for a bro to know what the spell is actually doing and how much of that is being done.

This is not true of the Protect line. Beyond "this sucks somehow", the inner-workings of Player Defense VS Monster Attack are a bit foggy. A few people have collected some data and offered some conjecture, but it remains one of the few things with no highly accurate model at present. "This sucks somehow" being the most concrete knowledge of it's mechanics is pretty telling about how worthwhile Defense buffs are.

Even a post by the Development Bros insisting Defense doesn't suck that bad, which presumably showed sublimely ideal conditions for increases in Defense given how those guys roll, would not have made Protect look anything like the amazing buff that is Shell if Protect were included in it. Protect V probably would have come to around 9~14% mitigation under those presumably ideal conditions, and for Defense, conditions change really freaking often.

Jobs with buffs that lower defense may even be at the lower bound both before and after Protect V when dealing with high attack monsters. I'm unsure about this bit, as it is not exactly easy for a bro to be repeatedly struck in the crotch by Ig-Alima or Mired Awful Thing forever with Last Resort or Counterstance up and his or her back turned while recording that vital bounty of crotch-strike data, but that such a thing is even in question is very noteworthy.

TLDNR Version: I am unsure what not feeling that Protect is worth casting mid-fight has to do with feeling that anything else is worth casting mid-fight. It is not comparable to most other buffs.

I have no idea how what I just typed relates to the argument going on, because I openly admit to not reading any of it. There's nothing to drink in this house and I don't hate myself that much anymore. I just can't pass up a chance to further disparage the Protect line.

[Aleste]

...we are considering adjustments so that the effect of Protect becomes stronger in the future.... One direction we are exploring is to make the defense increase based on a percentage rather than a static amount.

I swear to god, if they add some extra defense to protect 5 because the majority of us are too busy bickering over the difference between 1 extra devotion merit, accession-protect 5 and protectra 5...

We have the chance to fix this spell, and it's not even a hard fix. Drop it.

[Llana_Virren]

I swear to god, if they add some extra defense to protect 5 because the majority of us are too busy bickering over the difference between 1 extra devotion merit, accession-protect 5 and protectra 5...

We have the chance to fix this spell, and it's not even a hard fix. Drop it.

Yet, not bickering about the spell yields no changes at all. Hmmm....

As an aside, the entire line of protect spells honestly need some form of modification. The damage reduction of Protect spells is a laughable concept, frankly, as evidenced in any end-game event. Shell/Bar- spells however, are noticed when they are missing.

The Protect spells (including it's merit version) lack the potency needed/expected of them; this is why Protect is usually (if not always) the last buff that is reapplied... if a WHM even bothers to (and I know of a few WHMs who have argued that that would be a waste of mid-battle MP.

[Babekeke]

If protect was dispelled for everyone in an alliance/party, the requirement for re-applying it to the whole party is un-necessary anyway. As Spankwustler mentioned, anyone using Berserk/Last Resort is lowering their def by enough that they are probably below the cap on anything that matters, with or without protect. Counterstance removes all def gained from anything other than VIT, so protect is completely useless there.

Using some quick eyeballing and guesstimating, a lvl 99 character with ~100 base VIT, wearing a full Phorcy's set (random example) and has a bit of def from accessories will have ~400-420 def with no JA buffs or protect. I couldn't find any info anywhere about the att of any mobs, only their defensive stats, so it's hard to give hard estimates here but:
If def really mattered, melees would always use a food like rabbit pie (they don't).
If they did use rabbit pie, they would sacrifice 50 att from a food like red curry bun, for 100 def.
On our example, that char would now have 500~520 def, and protect(ra) V would make it 560~580 def. Yay! Even this barely makes a difference to the amount of damage that you take from the high att mobs.

Now, let's look at who would actually would get this benefit from protect:

blm rdm smn brd whm sch rng cor = should all be out of range of AOE. So no (unless rdm is tanking, of course, but if so they can re-apply it themselves anyway)
pup bst = /nin for shadows to absorb AOE TP moves, unless the moves wipe/ignore shadows, in which case /mage and just let the pet DD, or sub war and use berserk. So no.
nin war drk sam = Should all be riding berserk/last resort timer. So no.
thf dnc = either /nin if shadows absorb aoe tp moves, or /war and ride berserk if not. So no.
mnk = if using counterstance, protect has no effect. If not, see thf dnc. So no.
blu = awquard one. Usually /nin or /war (as thf dnc) but has cocoon/harden shell which if set and used give a worthwhile boost to protect. I'd go with yes.
drg = for DD, usually /sam, so no way of reducing def with JA. If /blu (ironically generally for soloing) cocoon makes bonuses to def all the better. So yes.
pld = yes (but will probably re-apply it [if they have mp] before the whm can)

So there you go. You're arguing the worth of protectra/acsession protect for the whole party/alliance, but only 3 jobs are even worth casting it on, as it stands. (IMO)

[InsideOut]

Job abilities that lowers defense should not exempt players from needing Protect. They would actually need it more so than those who are not using defense lowering abilities.

The Protect defense boost was never high enough to make a big impact but it does slightly lower the amount of damage taken even at higher levels. That alone makes it worth recasting. The stoneskin effect from Afflatus Solace is eaten through quicker without Protect. An enemy's physical weapon skill does noticeably more damage without Protect.

Mages get hit with AoE often enough because, unless they are using windower, there is really no way to precisely count yalm distance. For them, it is more of a trial and error type of thing. Listing Rangers and Corsairs as jobs that should be out of AoE range is not a reality because many NMs have AoE moves that reach the comfortable distance of these ranged attackers.

Again, the effect of Protect should be made stronger but its current effect does have a benefit noticeable enough for it to be cast on your party members. As for mid-battle, rushing in during a stagger proc or between mob waves is always a good time to recast all of your buffs. If you find it worthwhile to cast it at the start of a fight, obviously you are doing that for a reason. ( I just hope that reason isn't because your party leader demands it )

[Nakts]

WHM priority in battle should be cures, status removal, mp for future cures, then buffs. The big argument for Protectra 5 was for BLUs using Cannonball.

[Dantedmc]

If protect was dispelled for everyone in an alliance/party, the requirement for re-applying it to the whole party is un-necessary anyway. As Spankwustler mentioned, anyone using Berserk/Last Resort is lowering their def by enough that they are probably below the cap on anything that matters, with or without protect. Counterstance removes all def gained from anything other than VIT, so protect is completely useless there.

Using some quick eyeballing and guesstimating, a lvl 99 character with ~100 base VIT, wearing a full Phorcy's set (random example) and has a bit of def from accessories will have ~400-420 def with no JA buffs or protect. I couldn't find any info anywhere about the att of any mobs, only their defensive stats, so it's hard to give hard estimates here but:
If def really mattered, melees would always use a food like rabbit pie (they don't).
If they did use rabbit pie, they would sacrifice 50 att from a food like red curry bun, for 100 def.
On our example, that char would now have 500~520 def, and protect(ra) V would make it 560~580 def. Yay! Even this barely makes a difference to the amount of damage that you take from the high att mobs.

Now, let's look at who would actually would get this benefit from protect:

blm rdm smn brd whm sch rng cor = should all be out of range of AOE. So no (unless rdm is tanking, of course, but if so they can re-apply it themselves anyway)
pup bst = /nin for shadows to absorb AOE TP moves, unless the moves wipe/ignore shadows, in which case /mage and just let the pet DD, or sub war and use berserk. So no.
nin war drk sam = Should all be riding berserk/last resort timer. So no.
thf dnc = either /nin if shadows absorb aoe tp moves, or /war and ride berserk if not. So no.
mnk = if using counterstance, protect has no effect. If not, see thf dnc. So no.
blu = awquard one. Usually /nin or /war (as thf dnc) but has cocoon/harden shell which if set and used give a worthwhile boost to protect. I'd go with yes.
drg = for DD, usually /sam, so no way of reducing def with JA. If /blu (ironically generally for soloing) cocoon makes bonuses to def all the better. So yes.
pld = yes (but will probably re-apply it [if they have mp] before the whm can)

So there you go. You're arguing the worth of protectra/acsession protect for the whole party/alliance, but only 3 jobs are even worth casting it on, as it stands. (IMO)

You can do the exact same thing for Devotion:

rng cor pup bst nin war sam thf dnc mnk = no

drg = no, in most situations when they would be /mage and have mp they would be solo.

rdm sch = no, never in the same pt as whm and shouldn't run out of mp anyway.

blm = no, only in the same party as whm in abyssea, where it should not run out of mp. It could become useful if there was a new lowman fight than needed blm and was taxing on mp.

brd = no, has plenty of refresh for the small amount of healing they do if any

blu = no, they are never party with whm except in abyssea, where you shouldn't run out of mp. As with blm, if mp ever actually becomes an issue again, then it will be useful.

smn = maybe? usually not even in the same party on whm.

pld drk = potentially , except they don't run out of mp in voidwatch, and aren't in abyssea often from what I've seen if they even run out of mp there.

So only two maybe three jobs really are even in a situation to benefit from devotion at this time.

[Babekeke]

From Vana'Fest 2012:


Protect will made 1.5x stronger, and Protectra V may be made 3-4x stronger

[SpankWustler]

Protectra V being changed to give bros 200+ defense would be extreme enough to make me re-think the spell's value. I suspect I'd also re-think how I prioritize casting and re-casting it.

It requires a huge amount of Defense to make a palpable difference, possibly to make any difference at all in some cases, but the post-change amounts could be that huge. Also, unlike Defender and food and buffs from Bard or Corsair, nothing with more utility has to be given up for Protect spells. It would be really interesting if Protectra V and its kin became more useful; I hope the Development bros decide to go the whole nine yards with this.

More than that, though, I hope this and similar changes mentioned are signs that the Development Bros are starting to take long and hard and rarely kind looks at under-performing elements within Final Fantasy XI. Defense and defense-increasing-abilities seem to have been over-valued by the Development Bros from day one and it would be super-cool if that stopped.

[Babekeke]

So, how long until Cannonball is nerfed after this change takes place?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

From Vana'Fest 2012:

Hmm. I get it's a merit spell but compared to others that's a HUGE bonus.

[Llana_Virren]

Hmm. I get it's a merit spell but compared to others that's a HUGE bonus.

Try huge fix, because compared to other merit spells, Protectra V has been a waste of .DAT space.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Try huge fix, because compared to other merit spells, Protectra V has been a waste of .DAT space.

It actually fits with the majority of merit spells.

[Babekeke]

It actually fits with the majority of merit spells.

Only now that we are 99. At 75, most other merit spells worked:

AM2, these were BLM's most powerful spells, and well worth using for a magic burst. Not so since tier 5 spells.
RDM enfeebles were so good at the time that often 2 RDMs would be taken to events, like for salvage, have the first rdm unlocked with dia3 and phalanx 2 (for trash mobs), while the other rdm has para/slow for the boss. Current content enfeeb resist makes most of them worthless now though.
San spells, more powerful than Ni spells, and still only cost 1 tool. Completely win in that respect, even at 99.
BRD, I can't really comment on. If they did have a good use at 75, or now, I never bothered with them. 5/5 T&N for me.

[Camate]

Happy Friday everyone :)

I’d like to share some information that might give a bit more insight and explanation to the Protect/Minne effect adjustments.

This adjustment mainly took place to turn these spells and songs’ effects into a percentage enhancement as opposed to a static value, so that the benefits can be felt more and more at higher levels. Therefore, currently existing spells such as blue magic and rolls that enhanced defense as a percentage are not being adjusted at this time.

While many players have been asking for an additional damage reduction effect to be added to Protect, we have no plans to add this since the higher defense will already cut damage much more than before.

Finally, as we have mentioned in the past for other topics, by making these spell adjustments, monsters that utilize this magic will also see defense enhancements as well, as is the norm when we make adjustments of this kind.

Be sure to hit up the test server and try out the enhanced defense that can be gained from these spells, feel the difference for yourself, and let us know your feedback :)

[Dragoy]

It's Saturday here!

Oh, an cautiously interested... barely!

[Ophannus]

Guess this means casting protect won't just be a placebo from now on.

[Karbuncle]

Happy Friday everyone :)

I’d like to share some information that might give a bit more insight and explanation to the Protect/Minne effect adjustments.

This adjustment mainly took place to turn these spells and songs’ effects into a percentage enhancement as opposed to a static value, so that the benefits can be felt more and more at higher levels. Therefore, currently existing spells such as blue magic and rolls that enhanced defense as a percentage are not being adjusted at this time.

While many players have been asking for an additional damage reduction effect to be added to Protect, we have no plans to add this since the higher defense will already cut damage much more than before.

Finally, as we have mentioned in the past for other topics, by making these spell adjustments, monsters that utilize this magic will also see defense enhancements as well, as is the norm when we make adjustments of this kind.

Be sure to hit up the test server and try out the enhanced defense that can be gained from these spells, feel the difference for yourself, and let us know your feedback :)

Thanks for the update Camate.

That said, Since Protects and Minnes are going to be % Based, are there any plans to Update Carbuncle's "Shinning Ruby" Effect in light of that?

[Babekeke]

Thanks for the update Camate.

That said, Since Protects and Minnes are going to be % Based, are there any plans to Update Carbuncle's "Shinning Ruby" Effect in light of that?

I doubt it, Carb as it's already % based. 10% def, and 4% -MDT. It will become more useful though as there's no cap on it.

[Karbuncle]

I doubt it, Carb as it's already % based. 10% def, and 4% -MDT. It will become more useful though as there's no cap on it.

Yah, I know they stack.

Thing is, Shinning Ruby was unique it that it was a percentile increase, where as protect was static. This kinda outweighed its relatively weak nature that was the Shell Effect (4% MDT), Since it had this uniqueness. Since this Uniqueness is lost, Wondering if they planned to buff it a tad to compete (even though it is stacking, It consumes a BP Ward pact, Which could be used more usefully most times) ... To be more specific, Look here:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/20628-Request-Update-Summoner-Bloodpacts-To-be-more-useful-at-this-new-cap

Though i suppose its an inadequate topic of conversation for the WHM Forums, and I'd like to mention I wasn't trying to bring it up as a means to fish for buff updates for Summoner in a WHM Thread, Was just curious if there were any plans to revisit other similarly defensive abilities, Mostly because Shinning Ruby's description does say "Grants user the Protect and Shell Effect" (Doesn't it?)

Either way, Its not too important!

[Kikorimo]

"goblin cast protect? omg dispel dispel dis... wait... we're only level 12 and don't have that... run awayyyyyy!"
lol... kidding of course but I am curious how much more annoying this will make some mobs (like Carabosse) if you don't have dispel handy all the time...

[Mirage]

Worried you can't whm+mnk things anymore? :p

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Yah, I know they stack.

Thing is, Shinning Ruby was unique it that it was a percentile increase, where as protect was static. This kinda outweighed its relatively weak nature that was the Shell Effect (4% MDT), Since it had this uniqueness. Since this Uniqueness is lost, Wondering if they planned to buff it a tad to compete (even though it is stacking, It consumes a BP Ward pact, Which could be used more usefully most times) ... To be more specific, Look here:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/20628-Request-Update-Summoner-Bloodpacts-To-be-more-useful-at-this-new-cap

Though i suppose its an inadequate topic of conversation for the WHM Forums, and I'd like to mention I wasn't trying to bring it up as a means to fish for buff updates for Summoner in a WHM Thread, Was just curious if there were any plans to revisit other similarly defensive abilities, Mostly because Shinning Ruby's description does say "Grants user the Protect and Shell Effect" (Doesn't it?)

Either way, Its not too important!

Only issue is, you can guarantee if they upped SMN they'd do it so it didn't stack with Protect & Shell.

[Insaniac]

Eh... I messed with this a bit on the test server and the def boosts didn't seem % based. Unless the boost is based either on your base def without gear or doesn't change dynamically when you equip more DEF. I'll look at it again.

[Dantedmc]

How much defense were you getting?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Eh... I messed with this a bit on the test server and the def boosts didn't seem % based. Unless the boost is based either on your base def without gear or doesn't change dynamically when you equip more DEF. I'll look at it again.

Could be based on level as opposed to Defence itself.

[Mirage]

So far, it seems to be a static +175 defence at 1/5 merits, adding 5 per merit. At least according to Arcon!

[Insaniac]

Did a quick double check. No difference between Tectra V on/from a lvl 99 and 75. There doesn't seem to be anything % based or scaling about it.

The new values are:

Level 99 WHM/RDM
Protect: 163 -> 178 (15 DEF, previously 10)
Protect II: 163 -> 203 (40 DEF, previously 25)
Protect III: 163 -> 238 (70 DEF, previously 40)
Protect IV: 163 -> 283 (120 DEF, previously 55)
Protect V: 163 -> 338 (175 DEF, previously 60)
Protectra V (1 merit): 163 -> 338 (175 DEF, previously 60)
Protectra V (2 merits): 163 -> 343 (180 DEF, previously 62)
Protectra V (3 merits): 163 -> 348 (185 DEF, previously 64)
Protectra V (4 merits): 163 -> 353 (190 DEF, previously 66)
Protectra V (5 merits): 163 -> 358 (195 DEF, previously 68)
Augmented Relic +2 feet add +5 def per level for a max of 220.

I copied/edited Slycers post (http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/106679-Test-Server-Findings?p=5291283&viewfull=1#post5291283) instead of mine because his looks better. Neither one of us has the earring or ring to see how much those add.

[Arcon]

How much defense were you getting?

T1: 15
T2: 40
T3: 75
T4: 120
T5: 175

It wasn't percentage based, and it didn't depend on level either, as Camate's post may have hinted at. Ring/earring still gave 2 per tier, and didn't stack, just like before. Augmented Cleric's Duckbills +2 give +5 per merit.

And while this isn't WHM related, the Minne songs are also not percentage based.

[Insaniac]

Arcon and I ran into each other on the test server and after testing some minne stuff decided to see how high we could get my PLDs DEF.

PLD/BLU
5/5 Tectra5 + Augmented feet
99 Gjallar Daru SVed Minne 2-5
Cocoon
Hydra Kofte

2389 def.

Edit: WE FORGOT GALLANT'S ROLL!! =(

[Arcon]

Edit: WE FORGOT GALLANT'S ROLL!! =(

I don't have COR unlocked, so couldn't have done that, sadly. What would have worked, though, is Titan's Favor. Could get another ~100 Defense from that.

[Mirage]

That's a lot of def.

Now test how much damage reduction this would give you against a level 99 mob compared to 800 def :p.

[Karbuncle]

That's a lot of def.

Now test how much damage reduction this would give you against a level 99 mob compared to 800 def :p.

Might go from hitting you for 200 to about 198.

(Hahaa... I'm joking of course)

[Dragoy]

Might go from hitting you for 200 to about 198.

(Hahaa... I'm joking of course)

And yet, it might just be true.

[Insaniac]

I believe mobs pdif bottoms out at 1.0 so it's entirely possible against an EM mob it would do absolutely nothing.

[saevel]

I believe the guys on bg showed that mobs ratio can go under 1.0, it's their min / max formula that is broken. Even at 0.5 ration mobs can still hit you for over 1.0 and won't ever hit you for 0 from defense. Any defense that brings you under 1.0 runs into such a diminishing return that it does nearly nothing.

Still with this update it might be worth meriting protectra V once, now that it's actually different from Protect IV.

[Babekeke]

I don't have COR unlocked, so couldn't have done that, sadly. What would have worked, though, is Titan's Favor. Could get another ~100 Defense from that.

And Shining Ruby for another 238 ^^

[Arcon]

And Shining Ruby for another 238 ^^

If it's applied after everything else, yes, which I doubt though. Guess I can test it next time.

[Motenten]

175 defense is pretty decent. If we take the old Ig-alima numbers they gave us (1059 attack), and give a player an arbitrary 400 defense without protect, current Protect V would put it at 460 defense, while new Protect V would give 575 defense.

Given a positive level correction of +1.0 (maybe 1.05, but 1.0 is good enough here), cRatio for current Protect V would be 3.302, while cRatio for new Protect V would be 2.842, for a 14% reduction in damage taken.

Use Berserk, and defense is reduced to 345 (current) or 431 (new), giving cRatios of 4.0 and 3.457, 13.6% reduction.

Remove the level correction component, and additional damage reduction is about 20%.

Only complaint I would have is that +5 defense per merit is pretty cheap, since meriting to 5/5 is only a 2% additional reduction in damage taken compared to 1/5. Make it +15 defense per merit (the equivalent of another Protect 1, and 6% damage reduction for taking it to 5/5) and it would be worthwhile to at least consider it.


Of course that's all based on the idea of the current flat increase, whereas Camate indicated it should actually be a percentage increase, so subject to change.

[Babekeke]

Only complaint I would have is that +5 defense per merit is pretty cheap, since meriting to 5/5 is only a 2% additional reduction in damage taken compared to 1/5. Make it +15 defense per merit (the equivalent of another Protect 1, and 6% damage reduction for taking it to 5/5) and it would be worthwhile to at least consider it.

This.

Although these updates to Protect as a whole are great, it still doesn't get around the fact that it's just not worth meriting protectra V if you're a full-time /SCH, and definately not worth putting more than 1 merit into it and getting the augment done on relic +2 for a total of 55 extra def.... or is it?

Looking at Montenten's figures above, 5/5 with augment will be an additional 5.5% reduction in damage compared to 1/5 and no augment.

[Dantedmc]

5.5% seems like enough for me to go 5/5 protectra V now, atleast until I actually see a need for a devotion. Though I may 4/5 Protectra V and 1/5 devotion just because. The difference between 1/5 Shellra V and 5/5 augmented is only around 5% too correct?

[saevel]

That's only on something with 1000 attack, it gets less as the monsters attack gets close to your defense.

Definitely worth 1/5 though.