SE please give a reason for SAM "Tachi : Shoha" power.

[Vash72]

So many talk about the "Tachi : Shoha" power (the sams too) beacuse this is the truth.
SE, Why Samurai must be like 75s times the best dd? (I don't want think becuse SE is jp company the jp job must be the best , right?)

SE like to nerf MNK and WAR (war more) by talking about preserve the balance of the game , but sam with an action house great katana can parse more than heavy dds ( drk and war) with leggendary weapons =( , sam isn't a heavy dd, he is evasive (parry a- , eva b+ , seigan and third eye) precise and fast tp gain (zanshin , store tp , hasso and meditate) but not the brute dmg ws maker, right?

If my observation is wrong, please Square Enix Team make it clear to all by answering me^^, TY!

[RAIST]

Japan. Samurai. All you need to know.

[Tamoa]

sam with an action house great katana can parse more than heavy dds ( drk and war) with leggendary weapons =(

That's got to be some shitty drks and wars then, if an AH sam can outparse them.

[IronPandemonium]

shoha to shoha makes light skillchains, this ws holds no flaws whatsoever, omgomgomgomg so overpowered omg

Use proper atmacites (Discipline/Latitude/Valiant) and stop sucking please, because there's nothing overpowered about the job currently, particularly compared to back at seventy-five when it was the clear-cut winner, whereas now, Ukonvasara/Ukko's, Ragnarok/Resolution and Amanomurakumo(Masamune)/Shoha are closer together than ever before when compared to one-another.

If you want to nerf jobs for being relevant, let's nerf Warrior, Dark Knight and Samurai altogether, because Dragoon's buried six feet deep in actuality when compared to your self-proclaimed grudge you have toward one job just because you got smashed in a parse for being largely mediocre yourself.

[Zerich]

Use proper atmacites (Discipline/Latitude/Valiant) and stop sucking please, because there's nothing overpowered about the job currently, particularly compared to back at seventy-five when it was the clear-cut winner, whereas now, Ukonvasara/Ukko's, Ragnarok/Resolution and Amanomurakumo(Masamune)/Shoha are closer together than ever before when compared to one-another.

If you want to nerf jobs for being relevant, let's nerf Warrior, Dark Knight and Samurai altogether, because Dragoon's buried six feet deep in actuality when compared to your self-proclaimed grudge you have toward one job just because you got smashed in a parse for being largely mediocre yourself.

'mediocre' might be too nice

[IronPandemonium]

'mediocre' might be too nice

You're right, but the last time I went full-on someone in this forum, I got a slap on the wrist by moderators. :(

[Vash72]

Use proper atmacites (Discipline/Latitude/Valiant) and stop sucking please, because there's nothing overpowered about the job currently, particularly compared to back at seventy-five when it was the clear-cut winner, whereas now, Ukonvasara/Ukko's, Ragnarok/Resolution and Amanomurakumo(Masamune)/Shoha are closer together than ever before when compared to one-another.

If you want to nerf jobs for being relevant, let's nerf Warrior, Dark Knight and Samurai altogether, because Dragoon's buried six feet deep in actuality when compared to your self-proclaimed grudge you have toward one job just because you got smashed in a parse for being largely mediocre yourself.

Lol, you didn't understand nothing ^^.

You talked about VW where there are some special factors (atmacite and temporary items), in VW the wars and the drks it's hard to begin outparse and same in abyssea.

Try to parse some run of NeoNyzul with drk and war (with leggendary weapons and good gears) and two sam with "medriocre gears" and watch at the result without special factors.

After this watch at the X-m of shoha and u will see that the ws of the brute dds(war and drk) will be lower than sams, if u mean that the sam is a brute dd with the heavy ws ok, but for me sound strange.

[Tamoa]

How the hell do you parse in neo-nyzul anyway?

[Gokku]

Is sam broken : no
is it SE love child : yes
Is shoha good : yes
is shoha omfghavemy babys good: no

sam gets to much shit and SE babys the hell out of it but they still are far from king of the DD tree.

[Zerich]

How the hell do you parse in neo-nyzul anyway?

1. Make up statement in your head.
2. Find keyboard
3. ???
4. fail

[svengalis]

It took them almost a year to nerf ukko' s fury. I am sure the nerf to tachi: shoa will come soon enough.

[Tamoa]

1. Make up statement in your head.
2. Find keyboard
3. ???
4. fail

Lol - seriously, I want to know how the OP can parse in neo-nyzul - I mean, I get this mental image of his group all following each other around on every floor, killing one mob at a time.



Edit: OP of this thread said the following:


sam with an action house great katana can parse more than heavy dds ( drk and war) with leggendary weapons

and


Try to parse some run of NeoNyzul with drk and war (with leggendary weapons and good gears) and two sam with "medriocre gears" and watch at the result without special factors


Even if you only parse boss fights - if you have the same DDs every time, and the same buffs every time, and the drk and war are both consistantly outparsed by these mediocre AH sams by a fairly large margin every damn time, then


That's got to be some shitty drks and wars then, if an AH sam can outparse them.

[Elexia]

Japan. Samurai. All you need to know.

Japan. Ninjas...oh wait it's not about their fucking nationality. Every MMO developer has their particular love child.

[Ophannus]

Ninjas aren't originally Japanese, their techniques and origins if Shinobi date way back to China.

[IronPandemonium]

Try to parse some run of NeoNyzul with drk and war (with leggendary weapons and good gears) and two sam with "medriocre gears" and watch at the result without special factors.

After this watch at the X-m of shoha and u will see that the ws of the brute dds(war and drk) will be lower than sams, if u mean that the sam is a brute dd with the heavy ws ok, but for me sound strange.

So you're saying you and your DRK friend suck horribly, ignoring the fact that running a legitimate parse in Nyzul is near-impossible.

I see.

[Transmit]

I love Action House SAMs!

[saevel]

Ummm .... you know Shoha isn't actually that great when compared to UF / Res / or even Star Diver?

Seriously, it's only benefit is that its attack bonus allows an unbuffed SAM to do good damage. The moment you throw in double BRDs with DRK boosted Chaos Rolls, Berserk / Aggressor and Food (yeah your expected to use that) then Shoha falls behind Res / UF / SD and so forth. A super buffed SAM actually does better spamming SD then they would spamming Shoha.

But hey haters gonna hate.

[Invasion]

td;lr

i saw this sam do a 7k shoha in abyssea therefore its overpowered. i then decided to write about sams job abilities on the forums without actually noting that what i noted was pretty much already available as a sub job - bar the hasso effect on zanshin & 60tp meditate. further more i put in something about parry and evasion to buffer it even though it does nothing to shoha whatsoever.

[RAIST]

i saw this sam do a 7k shoha in abyssea therefore its overpowered.

Sounds like you haven't spent much time in Abyssea, or haven't been watching the damage output of other jobs. Other jobs can match that output with single moves. Hell, with only two DD atmas and MM SMN can crank out 5-6k at times. And don't get me started on what jobs like BLU and SCH are capable of doing....

[Invasion]

wooooooosh

[svengalis]

td;lr

i saw this sam do a 7k shoha in abyssea therefore its overpowered. i then decided to write about sams job abilities on the forums without actually noting that what i noted was pretty much already available as a sub job - bar the hasso effect on zanshin & 60tp meditate. further more i put in something about parry and evasion to buffer it even though it does nothing to shoha whatsoever.

You failed to read the post he posted after the original post, try again.

[Fupafighter]

You know whats funny, Stardiver sam beats shoha sam. Think they should nerf that too, and resolution beats shoha, that should be nerfed too. Get yo facts straight lol.

[Fupafighter]

It took them almost a year to nerf ukko' s fury. I am sure the nerf to tachi: shoa will come soon enough.

If they nerf shoha, they're dumb. There is nothing overpowered about it. I can outdamage my 90 masamune and a tp bonus sam with damn stardiver lol. Resolution is broken, Ukko's is still pretty damn good, and warrior has a dps and high double attack, so it makes up for their loss on ws damage.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Ninjas aren't originally Japanese, their techniques and origins if Shinobi date way back to China.Historically ninja aren't supposed to exist as their very nature and use is dishonorable.

[saevel]

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Tachi:_Shoha
Shoha 100% STR WSC, 2 hits (no copy fTP)
@100 2.375 fTP, 2.575 with gorget / belt
@200 3.15 fTP, 3.35 with gorget / belt
37.5% Attack Bonus

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Stardiver
Stardiver 100% STR WSC, 4 hits
@100 3.0 fTP, 3.8 with gorget / belt

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Resolution
Resolution 100% STR WSC, 5 hits
@100 3.5937 fTP, 3.7937 fTP with gorget / belt
-8% Attack

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Ukko%27s_Fury
Ukko's, 60% STR, 2 hits
@100 3.0 fTP +20% Crit Rate

Yeah Shoha looks sooooo overpowered in comparison to those other WS's. It only looks big because Fudo is weak and SAM has no native attack buffs. The moment you start stacking attack songs and heavy buffs that all changes and Shoha no longer looks so good, especially compared to SD / Res / Ukko.

[Savlyn]

Quote Originally Posted by Invasion View Post
i saw this sam do a 7k shoha in abyssea therefore its overpowered."

Sounds like you haven't spent much time in Abyssea, or haven't been watching the damage output of other jobs. Other jobs can match that output with single moves. Hell, with only two DD atmas and MM SMN can crank out 5-6k at times. And don't get me started on what jobs like BLU and SCH are capable of doing....

I laughed at this lol He totally missed the sarcasm. xD

[Fupafighter]

Actually fudo is not weak lol. Stack enough attack, and it overpowers shoha lol.

[RAIST]

I laughed at this lol He totally missed the sarcasm. xD

No...was more commenting about people who see a SAM break out a big WS and then react with "SAM is overpowered".

Whether it was in someone's trolling or not is irrelevant. It's an issue with people who have this impression that SAM is overpowered because they see them crank out a large WS. That is why I only quoted that portion of the post.

[saevel]

Actually fudo is not weak lol. Stack enough attack, and it overpowers shoha lol.

Fudo is weak, just like CT, Quietus and Torcleaver are weak. Pretty much any WS can be powerful if you throw enough buffs at them, some WS's naturally cap out quicker then others. Shoha, just like Gekko, caps out rather quickly and you arrive at a point where it's very hard to push it's damage much higher. Fudo having a higher fTP but lower WSC and no attack bonus ends up capping out higher then Shoha. Both are eclipsed by Stardiver, Resolution, Ukko's and even Last Stand.

[Quetzacoatl]

Fudo is weak, just like CT, Quietus and Torcleaver are weak

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m2pq4cKeZM1r2g7mto1_500.jpg

You're kidding me, right?

Torcleaver was the best GSword WS for Abyssea DRK until Resolution came along. Sure, it was no Ukko's, but aftermath and low delay paired with RR+Apoc+Alpha&Omega made DRK a DoT Machine. Especially in a zerg. Comparing Torcleaver to Quietus or Camlann's Torment is lolworthy.

[SMD111]

my guess is that because sam cannot aoe anything thay decided to give something in return that being damage

[Kysaiana]

my guess is that because sam cannot aoe anything thay decided to give something in return that being damage

Circle Blade with a sword, yo!

Anyway, like others have said, Tachi: Shoha is no more broken than half the other Merited weapon skills. Which is why people keep bringing up their desire to cap more than three of them. Tachi: Fudo is not weak it just lacks the "ignore defense" attribute of Tachi: Shoha. Torcleaver is definitely not weak. And even quietus isn't weak, it's just not as good as DRK's other options.

[saevel]

Torcleaver was the best GSword WS for Abyssea DRK until Resolution came along

That's not exactly saying much. I'm comparing it to it's competition, aka Ukko's / VS / ect. Tor was never particularly that powerful inside abyssea due to crits ruling the day in there. Tor is also only one hit, which should be self explanatory. Quietus sucked period, the DRK's cried blood about that for ages. Fudo is in the exact same group as those two, it only looks good because of Overwhelms 19% damage boost, throw Shoha (non mega buffed) in or SD (mega buffed) and both will beat it.

[Quetzacoatl]

That's not exactly saying much. I'm comparing it to it's competition, aka Ukko's / VS / ect. Tor was never particularly that powerful inside abyssea due to crits ruling the day in there. Tor is also only one hit, which should be self explanatory. Quietus sucked period, the DRK's cried blood about that for ages. Fudo is in the exact same group as those two, it only looks good because of Overwhelms 19% damage boost, throw Shoha (non mega buffed) in or SD (mega buffed) and both will beat it.

We can't throw Shoha in here because it didn't exist before the 99 cap.

Yeah, yeah, Crits...isn't that what Torcleaver's aftermath as an empyrean was for? 2.5-4K Torcleavers inside Abyssea were very respectable for a single-hit WS, yet the 430 delay was the real beauty of the beast. It made it easier to ride aftermath crits to support DRK's overall damage with it. Fudo In a zerg situation outside abyssea with high buffs, SAM can only WS so much before a WAR or DRK's overall damage through melee hits starts catching up. If you think Fudo and Torcleaver are grouped in with CT & Quietus, you're a fool to do so. CT & QUIETUS ALONE ARE AT THE LOWEST TIER POSSIBLE BECAUSE D!CKS

[Fupafighter]

Fudo is weak, just like CT, Quietus and Torcleaver are weak. Pretty much any WS can be powerful if you throw enough buffs at them, some WS's naturally cap out quicker then others. Shoha, just like Gekko, caps out rather quickly and you arrive at a point where it's very hard to push it's damage much higher. Fudo having a higher fTP but lower WSC and no attack bonus ends up capping out higher then Shoha. Both are eclipsed by Stardiver, Resolution, Ukko's and even Last Stand.
You forget one thing. Fudo vs stardiver sam, Is that sam will have 50% aftermath fulltime given that situation. SO unless your draco couse is giving you a shitton more ws damage than fudo in Caped attack situations, that fudo will win lol.

[Alkimi]

SE like to nerf MNK and WAR (war more) by talking about preserve the balance of the game , but sam with an action house great katana can parse more than heavy dds ( drk and war) with leggendary weapons


Also the best GK on the "action house" is awful:

http://www.ffxiah.com/item/18462/sasanuki

[saevel]

You forget one thing. Fudo vs stardiver sam, Is that sam will have 50% aftermath fulltime given that situation. SO unless your draco couse is giving you a shitton more ws damage than fudo in Caped attack situations, that fudo will win lol.

Go look up Moten, not having this debate again with you.

SD > Fudo if your super buffed, SAM ends up with a 90/10 WS:Melee split in buffed zergs, your WSing for multiple K of damage for every few swings of your weapon. The AM is literally meaningless for the 3min it takes you to kill the NM. If your fighting your very own infinite HP brick wall then Fudo can pull ahead due to it's superior SC properties and SAM's ability to cause tons of self SC's, otherwise it's just hit hit WS hit hit WS hit hit WS.

And just to outline how powerful a 100% STR WSC weapon skill that copies fTP is.

SD with Belt / Gorget and Moonshade (is this even the best in-slot for SD?) your at 0.97343 fTP per hit for a total of 3.89372 fTP, not counting any possible DA's. 200 STR @ 100% WSC = (200 * .85) 170 STR WSC.

Fudo with Belt / Gorget / Moonshade is at 4.2 fTP total, 200 STR @ 60% WSC (200 * .85 * .60) 102 STR WSC. If your in voidwatch you can toss on Latitude for another 0.5fTP onto Fudo for a total of 4.7 fTP. 4.2/3.89372 = 7.86% more fTP yet 60% less WSC (102/170). In Voidwatch your talking 4.7 fTP so 4.7/3.89372 = 20.7% more fTP yet 60% less WSC.

Draca Couse: Off AH
DMG: 112 STR +7 Delay: 480

90 Masa: Easy Emp
DMG: 114 STR +15 Delay: 437

99 Masa: Easy Emp + TONS OF MONEY
DMG: 132 STR +20 Delay: 437

And the final kick in the balls from SE to SAM, Masa's 431 delay is retarded. 480 is much easier to work with and comes with a free 5-hit and can feasibly get a 4-hit.

Now if you want to talk about the real super weapon for SAM, it's the Kogarasumaru which pretty much stomps everything else into the ground.

*Moten Signal*
Would latitude be the best atmacite for SD in voidwatch in both two and three atmacite configurations? SD has such a small fTP gain from 100 to 200 that it would almost seem not worth it. I'm getting a 0.09375 per hit difference which seems to favor a 15 STR Atmacite (Bismark / Valiant) over using Latitude. That and the HP bonus's are nice for surviving those periods between fanatics.

[Fupafighter]

I'm basically asking, Is stardiver THAT much stronger than fudo in high attack situations where you would use stardiver lol. Since the save tp nerf, I find myself having to swing 2-3x to ws. I'm just wondering if stardiver is THAT much stronger to make up for the FIFTY 50% bonus in dps from AM3. Not saying you're wrong, just asking a damn question now lol. I want comparisons of WS numbers. Basically parses.

[Agerknux]

Assuming capped attack, Fudo will come out on top over Shoha. However because of Shoha's attack bonus, it is easier to cap attack. Not to mention it is mathematically the weakest merit WS at 100%, and mediocre at 200%. Str also has a greater effect on Shoha than Fudo.

Down below is assuming capped fStr and capped pDif. Pil's def is 560

Fudo -- Capped attack needed on pil is 1260
Capped attack @ 100% 1 str = 4.3
Capped attack @ 200% 2 str = 5.45

Shoha -- Capped attack needed on pil is ~916 (assuming 37.5% attack boost native to Shoha)
Capped attack @ 100% 1 str = 4.54 damage
Capped attack @ 200% 1 str = 6 damage

Lets assume 190 str total and 90 Masamune
Fudo @ 100 = 2049
Fudo @ 200 = 2595
Fudo @ 300 = 3142

Shoha @ 100 = 1643
Shoha @ 200 = 2179
Shoha @ 300 = 2525

I don't know about you guys, but Shoha still looks mediocre. Its great on high def mobs because of its native attack bonus making it easier to cap attack for Shoha, that's about it.

[Asymptotic]

Worth mentioning that Shoha's attack boost is apparently first-hit only, too.

[Agerknux]

Did not know that, so that means damage would be even lower on Shoha if the 2nd hit not already capped attack.

[saevel]

Assuming capped attack, Fudo will come out on top over Shoha. However because of Shoha's attack bonus, it is easier to cap attack. Not to mention it is mathematically the weakest merit WS at 100%, and mediocre at 200%. Str also has a greater effect on Shoha than Fudo.

Down below is assuming capped fStr and capped pDif. Pil's def is 560

Fudo -- Capped attack needed on pil is 1260
Capped attack @ 100% 1 str = 4.3
Capped attack @ 200% 2 str = 5.45

Shoha -- Capped attack needed on pil is ~916 (assuming 37.5% attack boost native to Shoha)
Capped attack @ 100% 1 str = 4.54 damage
Capped attack @ 200% 1 str = 6 damage

Lets assume 190 str total and 90 Masamune
Fudo @ 100 = 2049
Fudo @ 200 = 2595
Fudo @ 300 = 3142

Shoha @ 100 = 1643
Shoha @ 200 = 2179
Shoha @ 300 = 2525

I don't know about you guys, but Shoha still looks mediocre. Its great on high def mobs because of its native attack bonus making it easier to cap attack for Shoha, that's about it.

Now *drum roll* put in a 99 Kano for the Shoha @225 (Moonshade) or 275 (Moonshade +Latitude). And IDK about you guys but I'm standing over 200 STR for WS right now.

But yeah the difference between Shoha and Fudo is that you'll do high damage without Minuets and / or Chaos roll. It's why everyone is going O.o when they see Shoha and not realizing that it doesn't really get much higher. Typically in the 2~3K range, rarely going to 4K on Voidwatch NMs. Makes it a great SAM spam WS similar to what Gekko was back in the day (vs Penta during super zergs). On zergs where your getting chaos + four songs and possibly an Embrava (prov fight), then you'll want to be using SD.

And Fupa, yes the difference is that big. SD simply scales much better then either fudo or Shoha once you start tossing on buffs and atmacites. Berserk / Aggressor + Stalwarts + Triple Minuet's + Mad + Embrava + Haste + HassoZanshin = one very pissed off SAM. A good SAM will have about a 90/10 split, Masa + Fudo could deal 100% more melee damage and not beat out SD. SAM's per-hit melee damage is so little vs it's WS damage. IDK if you parse, but it's blatantly obvious where SAM's damage is coming from. Heck you can technically get a 4-hit with DC and SD, might not be worth the trade off during WS though.

[Fupafighter]

So I should carry around a draco couse for when they actually decide to put one of the better DD in our alliance in the cor/brd pty haha. -.- What about kaiten with 99 amano? Does that beat stardiver with the bonus?

[Agerknux]

Kaiten's damage does not change on TP, just aftermath but get the 25% bonus at 95

So 95 Amano vs Draca Couse's Star Diver at 200 str and capped attack is

Amano --> 1761*1.25 = 2201 damage

Assuming all hits land.
Stardiver with Belt/Gorget @ 100% 2684
Stardiver with Belt/Gorget @ 200% 2949
Stardiver with Belt/Gorget @ 300% 3214

[saevel]

From my understanding you can DA on the first two hits of any WS, Fudo / Kaiten only have one hit and thus can only proc one DA, Shoha / SD have multiple hits and can proc two DAs.


So I should carry around a draco couse for when they actually decide to put one of the better DD in our alliance in the cor/brd pty haha

Wtf ... idk ... have you EVER been in an alliance zerg before?

For Voidwatch big fights we typically go with this for our two DD parties.

WHM
BRD
COR
DRK
WAR
SAM

WHM
BRD
COR
DRK
DRG
MNK

Each groups gets Chaos + Misers + March x 2 + Min x 2, if doing PV zerg then drop march for another Mad / Min or March / Mad.

Your buffs will be, Berserk Aggressor Stalwarts Chaos Min x 2 Bravers Monarchs. Those are standard buffs you will have ever fight on anything worth a damn (Kala / Rex / Ig / Prov / Morta / Bismark at least). We will most likely be using a similar setup for Legion once there's an actual reason to do it. Being a SAM your job is to kill it and kill it now (getting GKT proc if it comes up). If there is a HV / EV PLM you might split it with the DRG and take the lower portion of the WS's, otherwise your spamming WS and killing it before it wipes you. So yes, SD is a better WS for what you'll be doing.

Now I know everyone likes to go to bed at night with their R/M/E of choice. If you have a 90 Masa and are dead set on bring it to 99 then all the more power to you. The difference between a maxed Fudo vs SD isn't going to win / lose you a fight, so if your capped on merit WS and have no room to add in a Draco SD then Fudo will do you just fine. Just don't try to convince other that Fudo is better then SD in zergs (if you can self SC it's a different story).

[Fupafighter]

I said 99 amano(assuming 40% boost), but still that would mean stardiver wins.

[saevel]

I said 99 amano(assuming 40% boost), but still that would mean stardiver wins.

Amano / Kaiten is in an even worse situation then Fudo is. 3.0 fTP 60% STR and .. that's it. The 40% boost only brings it to the equivalent of a 4.2fTP Fudo without AM and without the ability to use Latitude / Moonshade and extra TP (DA on final ect ..) to boost it further. At least a Masa has extra STR on the weapon itself that can be used to boost Shoha / Fudo's damage and the AM deals extra damage, however little that damage is worth. Between SAM's R/M/E the Mythic is the only one that's really game-breaking good.