Stop leeching, start partying

[Earwig]

With the recent increase in Fell Cleave parties and pay-to-leech groups, I've been having a harder and harder time finding people who want to put effort into leveling their jobs. Over the past month, it's been next to impossible to start a party anywhere other than worms in La Theine or dolls in Altepa, and not to mention the 45-minute breaks that people like to take in the book burn parties.

Because of this, I'd like to propose a possible solution, which involves a change in the way exp is obtained. Instead of simply being in the same party as the person who finishes the mob, in order to gain exp, a person should have to do something to get on the mob's "hate list" in order to gain exp, in addition to being in the same party as the person who landed the finishing blow.

It's not that I have an issue with people handing over money for free exp. My issue is that so many people have gotten into a habit of doing this that it's exceedingly difficult for players who want to put effort into leveling a job to do so.

Discuss?

[saevel]

Not this topic again...

You want to hurt everyone just so you can feel better?

You can get fantastic XP with 3~4 people inside Abyssea or GoV. Heck you can solo XP inside abyssea or GoV for better XP then we ever got at 75 era.

No what your angry about isn't you getting XP, or you finding people, it's about other people doing things without you. You want to pull everyone else down to you level and make them play the way you want them to play.

tldr;
Stop whining and go solo / low man for more XP then you ever got at 75.

[katz]

I agree completely with the op. Its not about xp. I was saying the other day. the thing you miss most about parties isnt the slow grinding exp, its the community. The laughs, the fun, meeting new people, having the shared experience. Talking!. Its hard to communicate to leechers. The worst thing SE ever did was to allow level 30s into Abyssea. I want to know what exactly can a group of 18 level 30s do in abyssea. I know its like shutting the gate after the horse has bolted, but they should have never let anyone under 75 into Abyssea.

[katz]

I have a solution to learning how to TA on THF. Find a Fell Cleave parties or pay-to-leech groups. Take the mob next to the first leech, learn TA, if the mob wins the first leech take the second one on. Well its how you learnt how to do it in exp parties......The leaders of the group will love you, less work for them. Clears the party out for new leechers.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

This topic has been done countless times before.

Leveling doesn't make you good at your job.
Leveling doesn't make you learn a job.
Leveling doesn't guarantee capped skills.
Leveling slowly was NOT fun.
Fell Cleaving makes you more social as you can pay, leave it there, and talk to real friends, family etc...
Bad players will be bad regardless.
Good players will be good regardless.
People pay to level because it's easy and because it's cheap when you look at how much money you can make back through Cruor.

[cidbahamut]

Because of this, I'd like to propose a possible solution

http://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/12/4/20/Gikw_smaIkqChQiNAKoUng2.jpg

[SpankWustler]

No. Stop it.


Not this topic again...

At least the topic is in a a different forum than usual this time. Innovation!


I want to know what exactly can a group of 18 level 30s do in abyssea.

Nothing, because that is the most ridiculously extreme example possible.

Low-level folks can hold key items for two level 99 folks who are killing things, however, and be extremely helpful by doing so. Many quests in Abyssea can be done at any level. Anyone with a brain and some way to restore HP can be useful at a very low level, given the strange creatures that usually inhabit any kind of pick-up party.

[saevel]

Leveling slowly was NOT fun.

Good god it was horrible.

BRD RDM WAR MNK SAM or GTFO!

What you want to level your BST ... go away NUUUU XP FOR YOU

How about your SMN ... screw that go away

Hey I'm a good THF ... don't even bother, go away only BRD RDM WAR MNK SAM allowed. Go level a useful job!!!!!

That was XP prior to abyssea, and leaching has just become the natural extension of abyssea @99.

[Camiie]

With the recent increase in Fell Cleave parties and pay-to-leech groups, I've been having a harder and harder time finding people who want to put effort into leveling their jobs. Over the past month, it's been next to impossible to start a party anywhere other than worms in La Theine or dolls in Altepa, and not to mention the 45-minute breaks that people like to take in the book burn parties.


So no one wants to play your way? Most of the time people don't want to do what I want to either. No one is obligated to play like you or with you just as you aren't obligated to play like or with them. The Circle of Life doesn't involve the earth revolving around you.


Because of this, I'd like to propose a possible solution, which involves a change in the way exp is obtained. Instead of simply being in the same party as the person who finishes the mob, in order to gain exp, a person should have to do something to get on the mob's "hate list" in order to gain exp, in addition to being in the same party as the person who landed the finishing blow.

So people will set up a bot to cast Dia to get on the hate list. And you don't get credit unless you're in the same party as the person who landed the finishing blow? I want you to stop and think about what could possibly be wrong with that idea. I'm not going to help you.


It's not that I have an issue with people handing over money for free exp. My issue is that so many people have gotten into a habit of doing this that it's exceedingly difficult for players who want to put effort into leveling a job to do so.

If they're handing over gil it's not free. And, you seem to think that if someone isn't doing things your way, they're not putting the proper effort into a job. That's certainly a common idea amongst people. "If you're not doing it like me you're doing it wrong." It's a common idea, but not a very smart one.

[Muse]

Because of this, I'd like to propose a possible solution, which involves a change in the way exp is obtained. Instead of simply being in the same party as the person who finishes the mob, in order to gain exp, a person should have to do something to get on the mob's "hate list" in order to gain exp, in addition to being in the same party as the person who landed the finishing blow.

I bolded the part I'd like to address.

If you have to be on the hate list, IE do something to the monster and/or players on the monster, then what happens to people during parties who do not always have time to engage the monster and/or fighting another monster? That is experience they won't get even though they were actively playing. Did you think of that when posting this? What about during worm parties? I know that RNG's were once favored for them because they could one-shot worms. If that's true, then that is 17 people not gaining experience from a single worm. Now if all the DD's are one-shotting, then that is a major problem.


Edit: What about if you're that DD whose fighting a monster and then die? Hate is lost upon death, meaning if you do raise in time for the monster to die you will gain no experience for the work you have done. Would that be fine with you? Losing all the hard work you put into a monster's death only to have it taken away from you? I wouldn't.


I do agree however that people leeching in a normal party sucks. Especially when they are your stun on dolls, or your white mage. I do get a good laugh from self-destruct though. Watching a whole alliance wipe to one doll that wasn't stunned is just epic.

[Alikhat]

Possible solution: Shout out for a new linkshell that likes to do things the old way. It's a minority, but there are people out there who do like the idea of doing things old school, even if just for nostalgic reasons.

I enjoyed the whole standard 6-man party days, and I was never prejudiced towards any jobs joining in as long as they were played at a reasonable level of skill and contributed. But there are players, probably the majority, who favour efficiency. There are many views on what is entertaining too; some enjoyed the in-game social aspect of partying, others enjoyed getting their jobs to the cap so that they could take part in the end game events. There's never going to be a solution that works for everyone and so the best thing you can do is try to find others who share your opinions and figure something out between you.

Those who do go AFK during these parties/alliances are often removed, at least in the groups I've always been in. If you see someone who looks AFK, even if it's the original party/alliance leader, you can make it known and most of time the offending players will be kicked, or the active group will remake the alliance effectively removing the AFK leaders/players.

It's only those who are making gil from Fell Cleaves that don't really care that much, though I'm pretty sure they'd be happy to kick someone after taking their 1 million gil before their exp time is over because they were AFK so they can get a new person to replace them. But joining those are optional; you aren't forced to use that service. Seeing as using this service and then going AFK for this period of time is against the ToS*, a player can't really argue that they lost out on their gil; they'd get banned for reporting it as it is an admission of breaking a contract.

The reality: there are alternatives. If levelling via a GoV/Abyssea group was the only way to get exp then I'd see an issue but because there are other ways still available, even if the majority don't want to do it, there's nothing that says we need to prevent these people from enjoying this game in their own way.

As long as my experience isn't disrupted or hindered, and there are no alternatives in the game, then I fail to see a valid, objective reason for imposing restrictions to others' game-play.

tl;dr

Find other people who want to play your way.

People going AFK can be, and often are, removed from the party/alliance.

There are alternative methods to levelling a job; not everyone wants to play the same way, and they shouldn't be forced to or penalised for it.


*It's under section 2.2: "You may not play the Game for the purpose of [...] advancement in game play on behalf of a third-party" if anyone wants to dispute that because that is exactly what getting EXP for being absent from the game is: an "advancement in game play", the "third-party" is the person doing the Fell Cleave.

[wish12oz]

I do agree however that people leeching in a normal party sucks. Especially when they are your stun on dolls, or your white mage. I do get a good laugh from self-destruct though. Watching a whole alliance wipe to one doll that wasn't stunned is just epic.

I get laughs from people who cant kill dolls before they get 100 TP, and still cant kill them in the 5~ seconds it takes for them to blow up.

[Spiritreaver]

With the recent increase in Fell Cleave parties and pay-to-leech groups, I've been having a harder and harder time finding people who want to put effort into leveling their jobs. Over the past month, it's been next to impossible to start a party anywhere other than worms in La Theine or dolls in Altepa, and not to mention the 45-minute breaks that people like to take in the book burn parties.

Because of this, I'd like to propose a possible solution, which involves a change in the way exp is obtained. Instead of simply being in the same party as the person who finishes the mob, in order to gain exp, a person should have to do something to get on the mob's "hate list" in order to gain exp, in addition to being in the same party as the person who landed the finishing blow.

It's not that I have an issue with people handing over money for free exp. My issue is that so many people have gotten into a habit of doing this that it's exceedingly difficult for players who want to put effort into leveling a job to do so.

Discuss?

You can't un-ring the bell.

[Aldersyde]

It's only those who are making gil from Fell Cleaves that don't really care that much, though I'm pretty sure they'd be happy to kick someone after taking their 1 million gil before their exp time is over because they were AFK so they can get a new person to replace them. But joining those are optional; you aren't forced to use that service. Seeing as using this service and then going AFK for this period of time is against the ToS*, a player can't really argue that they lost out on their gil; they'd get banned for reporting it as it is an admission of breaking a contract.

*It's under section 2.2: "You may not play the Game for the purpose of [...] advancement in game play on behalf of a third-party" if anyone wants to dispute that because that is exactly what getting EXP for being absent from the game is: an "advancement in game play", the "third-party" is the person doing the Fell Cleave.

The thing is, the definition of "third party advancement" is pretty vague. Unless SE are idiots, they know mercing of R/E items for gil has taken place for a very long time, which I would personally consider "third party advancement"; I can't think of instance where a banning has come out of it though. From incidents I can vaguely recall, GMs will enforce contracts for goods if one party tries to scam the other if there's proof in the chatlogs that such a deal was made, by making the offender return gil or drop the item. You can also see other services in game that I would consider "third party advancement" like high-levels getting low-level characters through genkais or in the real olden days, high-levels killing coffer mobs for lower-levels so they can get keys for AF armor. If SE really has a problem with "xp for gil" transactions, they should come out and tell us, because there's obviously instances of "third party advancement" they're okay with.

I was under the impression that the real issue was with the AFK play aspect; I'm not sure "xp for gil" is inherently a contract which GMS wouldn't try to mediate if one player complained of unfair treatment as in the case of being kicked out of party slot when one paid for a certain amount of time. Unless someone is an idiot and flat out said they paid for a party to leech xp and then went afk, I don't think a gm would instaban them. Unless a gm had been sending them tells, there's no way after the fact to really ascertain if someone was afk.

[Alikhat]

I was under the impression that the real issue was with the AFK play aspect; I'm not sure "xp for gil" is inherently a contract which GMS wouldn't try to mediate if one player complained of unfair treatment as in the case of being kicked out of party slot when one paid for a certain amount of time.

If you were at least "playing" the game - not afk - and you reported it straight away you'd probably be all right considering the thing that GMs have overseen on previous occasions. If it was an hour or two after the fact before you reported it, I doubt it work in your favour any more because it would imply you had no knowledge of this until that time which in turn implies you weren't present and I'm pretty sure they can find that kind of information out from the logs.

But, yes, the issue I was bringing out was the "pay to leech with the intention of going afk" - likening it to statutory interpretation I used the mischief rule for the reason that the statement is ambigious. Technically you could put a lot of things that have happened in-game, legitimately, but understanding why it might have been written in the first place is my favourite place to start.

I remember reading a post on the ZAM forums about someone who came back to their game to find they had been banned following a FC party. Using something from this thread: Attacking Monsters with an Avatar While Being AFK (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/22773-NA-Attacking-Monsters-with-an-Avatar-While-Being-AFK), particularly this section:


Please be advised that a GM may request assistance from you if they determine that your actions may be causing a disruption in the game balance. If you received instructions from a GM, we ask that you follow them immediately. If you do not follow the instructions, as stated previously, the GM will take action against your account.

I'd understand "request assistance" to be on the lines of directly communicating with the player via tells, thus it's quite possible for a GM to, randomly or otherwise, initiate an attempt to communicate, and failing to do so said player may find themselves under investigation.

If on the other hand you are there then it's no different to offering gil for a service akin to having mercenaries kill NMs for you. Since SE and GMs have supported this previously that only serves to your advantage.

I think the biggest problem comes from the apparent lack of interest by SE and GMs in stating their position on such topics very often. They seem to wait until there's an outcry before stepping in to say something. At the very least seeing GMs actively working in-game on these things would help clear things up a little. But as it is, it is a vague statement and isn't helped with the actions like those you've described - mercing being contractually enforced by GMs.

[saevel]

So what exactly would you consider AH buying then?

I'm spending gil, for advancement via third party's, their making my food that I'm using for my advancement. Mercing been around since 2004, its nothing new. People used to /sh and offer a bribe for someone to run them through the LB quests. How about selling drops off HNM? Your paying gil for "advancement" through third party's?

See there is no clear cut definition, no easy way out. You can't enforce your own personal beliefs on other players even though you want to.

Story time, this happened today btw.
So there is a /sh FC group going on. Some guy decides he's gonna ruin it and does jeuno /sh's for BLMs to help him kill the "RMT party". They form up and head out to the zone the FC group is at. They then follow the guy around and time nuke his mobs. Eventually they run and grab a NM nearby and run it into the group of AFK players (they thought) and proceed to CFH and kill half the group. What they didn't know was that the moment they started their shout, a member of that "afk RMT group" contacted a GM and was talking to that GM as the BLMs ran around messing with the FC'er. The moment they grabed the NM and killed those people, the GM jailed the leader of that group. Everyone got to see the leader suddenly vanish, the leader is now banned for griefing. The rest of the BLM group got off with a warning, they warped out so fast it was hilarious.

So go out and be stupid, watch what it gets you.

[Llana_Virren]

Story time, this happened today btw.
So there is a /sh FC group going on. Some guy decides he's gonna ruin it and does jeuno /sh's for BLMs to help him kill the "RMT party". They form up and head out to the zone the FC group is at. They then follow the guy around and time nuke his mobs. Eventually they run and grab a NM nearby and run it into the group of AFK players (they thought) and proceed to CFH and kill half the group. What they didn't know was that the moment they started their shout, a member of that "afk RMT group" contacted a GM and was talking to that GM as the BLMs ran around messing with the FC'er. The moment they grabed the NM and killed those people, the GM jailed the leader of that group. Everyone got to see the leader suddenly vanish, the leader is now banned for griefing. The rest of the BLM group got off with a warning, they warped out so fast it was hilarious.

So go out and be stupid, watch what it gets you.

I may have been the precursor to that... because I got MPKd by the Cuijatender after having just zoned into the area that the FC party was at, and I reported the guy. Guess the GMs decided to keep tabs on the area, so they could react faster in case another MPK GM call was made.

[scaevola]

The continued value of money in FFXI, to the extent that it's great enough to be useful in securing the assistance of more capable players on behalf of the less capable (whether that capability involves skill, knowledge, sheer time, or whatever) is probably the single best enduring quality of the game and I oppose anything that diminishes its value in any way.

[Xantavia]

I understand what the OP is saying. I might be reading it wrong, but the issue is that so many people have gotten in the habit of leeching, you can't make a party to fight anything anymore.

I think the last invite I got even to an abyssea party was a complete waste. Out of 15 people, maybe 5 of us were actively doing anything. The other 10 were scattered around the area, and the few low level players there weren't even keying chests.

I understand that it should be up to the leaders to boot anybody not pulling their weight (unless it was agreed upon ahead of time), but it gets really frustrating when everybody wants to leech and nobody wants to contribute.

[Llana_Virren]

It might get frustrating that you cannot find people to party with, but that doesn't mean leeching should be done away with. If people don't want to party, forcing them to do so will not be to anyone's benefit.

Lately, anti-leech sentiment has been leading up to players attempting to MPK leech parties, which is wrong.

[saevel]

I understand what the OP is saying. I might be reading it wrong, but the issue is that so many people have gotten in the habit of leeching, you can't make a party to fight anything anymore.

I think the last invite I got even to an abyssea party was a complete waste. Out of 15 people, maybe 5 of us were actively doing anything. The other 10 were scattered around the area, and the few low level players there weren't even keying chests.

I understand that it should be up to the leaders to boot anybody not pulling their weight (unless it was agreed upon ahead of time), but it gets really frustrating when everybody wants to leech and nobody wants to contribute.

Then do what I've done with my shell mates, grab a few friends *GASP OMG THOSE EXIST* and go kill things in a three or four man group. If your friends don't want to help you level something 30+, or you all have low jobs you want to level, then sync down to the lowest member and do GoV / FoV as a group.

Otherwise it's just people wanting to force their will on others, everyone wants to make the rules but no one wants to play by them.