Increase the number of meritable WS [Archive]

Economizer

05-04-2012, 04:47 AM

Following that logic why doesnt SE limit the amount of jobs we take to 99? that'd even further how specialized your character is, oh we can even limit the amount of subjobs you can level too is that specialized enough for you?

I already addressed this when SE had announced the merit cap in the first place. The specialization argument is completely stupid, since it goes against everything that FFXI has different over other MMOs.

If people really must have a specialization argument, then why block people from meriting all of them anyways? There are people who can really do it all, they just work harder at it. Thus, if it is really an issue, then people wanting to unlock the ability to unlock more merit WS should just have to pay merits to get the ability. Thus lets say you spend 30 merits to unlock the ability to get 16th-20th points in the merit WS category, 60 to unlock your 21st-25th points, 90 to unlock your 26th-30th and so on. It will be insanely expensive to unlock all of them, thus countering any logical or intelligent argument against it.

Camiie

05-04-2012, 05:44 AM

Disagree, and not liked. You should have to specialize,

Why? Because you say so? I say you shouldn't be forced to specialize. Why? Because the job system they've created is actually the antithesis of specialization. All jobs are fully available on any single character. What part of that says to you that specialization is the direction of the game? Forced specialization is actually jumping the shark. It's quite inconsistent with what's presented at the outset and really serves no purpose.

that's what merits were originally about.

No... Merits are about being able to advance your character once it's reached the level cap. The LIMITS they placed on merits force you to specialize, but the idea of meriting is not about specialization.

You can already merit them all if you don't mind them not being as good.

Not as good? I think you vastly overestimate the worth of a not-fully merited WS.

Windwhisper

05-04-2012, 08:38 AM

Disagree, and not liked. You should have to specialize, that's what merits were originally about.

You can already merit them all if you don't mind them not being as good.

i loled at that for obvious reasons.

But to the subject. some merit weaponskills are pretty crappy, but they have a great animation. its neither gamebreaking nor disrupting any balance to allow us to spend our merits to cap them all.

Tsukino_Kaji

05-04-2012, 10:10 AM

You can already merit them all if you don't mind them not being as good.No you can't.

Alhanelem

05-04-2012, 10:34 AM

No you can't.
Yes, you can. There are 14 weapon skills, and you get 15 points to spend.

Why? Because you say so? I say you shouldn't be forced to specialize.Yes, because I said so. [sarcasm]

No, because SE said so. Why do you think there are limits on the categories in the first place? BECAUSE THEY WANT YOU TO SPECIALIZE, AND NOT BE ABLE TO HAVE THE BEST EVERYTHING. Outside of equipment, merit points are pretty much the only thing that makes one character distinct at all from another.

If you can have every merit maxed, then I want to be able to reach level 346. I want to cast all my spells for no mana. I want <insert limit here> to be removed. Hello slippery slope! If you never have to make decisions or those decisions don't have weight, it sucks the fun out of the game- Everybody will be exactly the same.

Not as good? I think you vastly overestimate the worth of a not-fully merited WS. Not at all. But some people above are saying "oh, some WS aren't as good but I want them anyway so i can see the shiny animation!" - Well, if that's the case, then it doesn't matter how strong it is now, does it? You just want to see the animation because it looks cool.

So here's what you do: Merit it with 1 point. Use the WS over and over til you're sick of looking at it. Un-merit it. Merit something else.

I love "Remove the <limitation> limit!" threads- They're always super popular and gain tons of support because who wants limits? But people don't realize that the limits are there for a reason and in many cases, the game would end up being less fun than if the limits weren't there.

Following that logic why doesnt SE limit the amount of jobs we take to 99?This doesn't follow that logic. Being able to level and play any job is one of the game's central features, which was specifically advertised. Limiting the merits is what is done instead of limiting the jobs you can play- thus, you can play them all, but you have to choose the ones you like most to maximize. People seem to have this funny idea that it renders all their other jobs unuseable- it doesn't.

I wouldn't be opposed to being able to max 1 or 2 more. But I would be vehemently opposed to being able to max all of them.

Sparthos

05-04-2012, 11:27 AM

Disagree, and not liked. You should have to specialize, that's what merits were originally about.

You can already merit them all if you don't mind them not being as good.

Admittingly I shared a similar thought upon the release of the WS but now the dust has settled I must respectfully disagree because well.... certain jobs are just pure crap without their newest weaponskills.

For instance, I've got a BST but I happen to have my merits in Last Stand, Shoha and Exenterator. Without access to Ruinator BST is stuck using Rampage which is quite terrible in comparison to the more modern WS. Axe has pretty much nothing else going for it meaning you either put down the merits or get stuck using something designed for lvl55.

Yeah.

There are other examples like Tachi: Shoha which completely changes SAM. Without it you might as well not use the class if you have it leveled. Fudo doesn't compare and requires an Emp, Ageha is useless now and everything else is old and ineffective.

In short, access to another 3 unlocks would beneficial and open up the ability to modernize classes without being stuck with something vastly inferior.

Karbuncle

05-04-2012, 12:03 PM

The idea of forced specialization in a game designed from the beginning to be about free use of any job is just stupid. If you want a game with forced Specialization, There are quite a few on the market. You can play a game where you get 1 job Per character, and every character can only equip 1 weapon type, and 1 set of armor. Sounds enjoyable right?

No. Neither is being able to play 20 jobs, Get 20 Relics, 20 Empyreans, 20 Mythics, Unlock every weaponskill for every job... then suddenly having that freedom to experience every job torn from you and reduced to a measly 1/5th potential from new content.

Problem is, It falls in line with merits. Merit Combat Skills and magic Skills both force limitations on us, I never understood the idea of Category Caps for merits personally, If i wanted to burn through thousands of merits, I should be able too cap all Merits have to offer. I mean, It gives me more of a time sink, Which is all SE Cares about these days, Bottle-necking any smallest thing by adding absurd restrictions... You'd think completely unlocking merit Categories would be a step in their direction.

Maybe they're saving that for when they realize they're out of content and need to give us something to do for about a month?

Either way, unfortunately forced specilization has always been the Theme of merits, So i don't fully condone unlocking all Merit WS's, even though i would thoroughly enjoy it, and i feel thats the direction every merit category should take... But increasing it from 3 to 5 should be a reasonable compromise...

Anapingofness

05-04-2012, 12:15 PM

Yes, yes and yes! A thousand times yes! and liked!

Alhanelem

05-04-2012, 01:02 PM

Simple proceedure for gaining tons of likes on this forum:

1) Post a thread stating that such and such a limit or restriction be removed. It could be anything. Limits are bad!
2) Profit!

Nobody seems to comprehend that limits exist for a variety of reasons- Game balance, preventing technical issues, defining systems, and more.

force limitations on usIf it wasn't forced on people, nobody would specialize. Everyone would just get everything eventually (Sure, initially, people would pick what they like most, but as time goes on, everyone moves toward the same end point and then everyone's merits become the same- This might be "balanced" or "fair" but it's also boring and uninteresting). I don't really see it as "forcing" anyone to do anything other than make a choice. any percieved lack of choice (e.g. pigeonholing) is imposed by the playerbase, particularly the elitists who decide what is best and then everyone else follows. To me, however, it grants me the freedom to NOT do the same thing everyone else is doing. People use words like "force" to make it sound as if it's bad. It doesn't have to be and isn't bad.

Karbuncle

05-04-2012, 01:37 PM

Simple proceedure for gaining tons of likes on this forum:

1) Post a thread stating that such and such a limit or restriction be removed. It could be anything. Limits are bad!
2) Profit!

Simple procedure for Indentifying Analhelm

1) Find Thread with popular idea, Liked by many, and considered reasonable if done right.
2) Disagree with it for no other reason than attention and to just disagree with anything popular.
3) ???
4) Profit

I can be a smarta** too.

Alhanelem

05-04-2012, 02:15 PM

2) Disagree with it for no other reason than attention and to just disagree with anything popular.Except that's not why I'm disagreeing. I'm disagreeing because I genuinely feel that this doesn't need to be changed and that people are just whining about something having a limit or restriction on it.

Tamoa

05-04-2012, 04:33 PM

But people don't realize that the limits are there for a reason and in many cases, the game would end up being less fun than if the limits weren't there.

Are you really saying the game would be less fun if we were able to merit (as in capping out) all the new weaponskills?

Vagrua

05-04-2012, 05:02 PM

Except that's not why I'm disagreeing. I'm disagreeing because I genuinely feel that this doesn't need to be changed and that people are just whining about something having a limit or restriction on it.

20 jobs possible to 99 limited to only 3 merited weapon skills to max is pretty lame to me. The weapon skills are entirely useless if you only put 1 merit into them all.

If I had a choice, I would merit each weapon skill to their fullest, this way, every job I have could make use of them. I wonder if they took into consideration that people now can easily have 12+ lvl99 jobs these days.

Nonetheless, I agree with the two topics ops wanting to up it to where you can have an additional merited weapon skill at max. It wouldn't really break the game in anyway; it would just make the community happier if the Devs were to actually respond or agree to add it.

Kysaiana

05-04-2012, 07:48 PM

I'm sure SE will eventually raise the cap on this category as they have with all the others with the exception of job specific merits, I'm just hoping it will be sooner rather than later. Speaking of job specific merits, isn't is absurd we can put merits into every job we lvl to 75? It's positively game breaking, I mean at most we should be able to put 15 merits into all jobs total. Meaning we could cap two things in tier 1 and one thing in tier 2 for a single job! Or we could get creative and put a single merit into 15 jobs. Sounds balanced to me.

Tamoa

05-04-2012, 08:30 PM

In fact we shouldn't really be allowed to take all jobs to 99, we should be forced to select and specialize in a maximum of 5 jobs.

BALANCE!

Alikhat

05-04-2012, 10:35 PM

I'm fairly sure the original concept behind the merit system was to give players the opportunity to decide which of their jobs they wanted to take beyond their natural limitations - read: decide/force a specialisation. SE didn't want to us to have everything otherwise they probably wouldn't have put in there in the first place.

I don't have an issue in increasing the cap considering some jobs really do need those WS to have something decent. But rather than an increase in the maximum amount you can merit up to 5/5 - which is obviously the want here - I'd prefer to see these WS being usable naturally, with merits allowing a further increase in their potential. Maybe even having these merits raise the potential of all WS for a particular weapon type, perhaps by raising the relevant stat modifier by a % or the fTP values - I have no idea what the balancing implications of these would be. At the very least, everyone has a decent WS - where Empy/Relic/Mythic WS should get a clear advantage over them - that is capable of modernizing the jobs or giving them an alternative to the pre-cap ones that are starting to show their age.

Speaking of job specific merits, isn't is absurd we can put merits into every job we lvl to 75?

I had a thought about it too whilst reading this discussion. It would have been - under the common thought patterns of today - an awesome way to piss off a lot of players. Despite it being restricted, I, for one, would find this to be a fitting way to enforce the concept of a merit system which promotes careful decision making. A limit of 150-200 potential merits spread across all of the jobs. SE were being incredibly lenient in allowing players to merit jobs on an individual cap - they could have done both.

If it wasn't forced on people, nobody would specialize.

Closing point: The majority of players that I've read the posts of don't seem to want to specialize. They don't want to make decisions about where to take their characters. They don't want to choose between ability A and ability B. They want it all. And that's the recurring word of the moment: want. It's not about needing to have more choice to cater or enhance the game, they just want it. I may remember wrong, but I'm sure the increase in the limits on the general merit categories came about because people wanted to merit their new - easily - acquired jobs and not have to choose between having dagger or katana now. I think they should have been left exactly as they were, just to encourage this idea of decision making. The only categories that did need to be raised are HP/MP and Attributes - 80HP and +5STR wasn't going to cut it with the 24 level increase.

The problem I feel, in the end, has a lot to do with the fact that this is an RPG. It relies on it's mathematics, and with an MMO, you have to balance the min/max potential. The issue comes from the fact that players want to have that maximum potential in everything they do. This is why these threads come up: we need the cap on merits increased/removed, we need more inventory space so I can have this situationally better piece of gear etc etc. The thing is: it's not a need, it's a want, fed by the desire to be perfect in all that we do.

Neisan_Quetz

05-04-2012, 11:10 PM

Saying they should be left exactly as they are completely ignores the issues with Category 2 Job merits for 1 and having 3 weaponskills to merit when many of them are incredibly useful for multiple jobs for 2. Increasing the cap =! 5/5 all the merit weaponskills. I fail to see how being able to merit 5 of them is unreasonable.

Arcon

05-05-2012, 01:10 AM

I'm disagreeing because I genuinely feel that this doesn't need to be changed and that people are just whining about something having a limit or restriction on it.

Restrictions suck.

But rather than an increase in the maximum amount you can merit up to 5/5 - which is obviously the want here - I'd prefer to see these WS being usable naturally, with merits allowing a further increase in their potential.

While this could work if it was adjusted, having the WS naturally as they are now will not do. Unless they're merited fully they're all very weak, even just having 4/5 merits means most of them aren't worth using over other readily available WS (20% off the WSC at ~150 means 25 less base damage). Which means, in terms of efficiency, having a WS merited 4/5 equates to about not having it at all for many of the WS.

Camiie

05-05-2012, 01:25 AM

Yes, because I said so. [sarcasm]

No, because SE said so. Why do you think there are limits on the categories in the first place? BECAUSE THEY WANT YOU TO SPECIALIZE, AND NOT BE ABLE TO HAVE THE BEST EVERYTHING. Outside of equipment, merit points are pretty much the only thing that makes one character distinct at all from another.

We're not children. Because Papa Tanaka said so isn't a good enough reason. WHY do they want us to specialize, and don't we already do that by changing jobs? We're already limited as to what Weapon Skills we have access to because of job exclusivity and skill levels. If I could fully merit all the Weapon Skills it's not going to turn my MNK into anything that it's not already. Even WAR can't use them all and even if they could, a WAR won't use them all effectively.

I just fail to see how anything becomes OP or unbalanced here whether I can fully unlock 5 10 or 14 of them. If I'm not supposed to be able to fully unlock all the merit WS then why can I unlock all the WSNM and Mythic ones? Why is this different simply because the WS are locked behind merits rather than a quest?

Alhanelem

05-05-2012, 03:21 AM

The majority of players that I've read the posts of don't seem to want to specialize. They don't want to make decisions about where to take their characters. They don't want to choose between ability A and ability B. They want it all. And that's the recurring word of the moment: want. It's not about needing to have more choice to cater or enhance the game, they just want it.People might want things but that doesn't always mean they should have them.

Restrictions suck.Yeah. I know! Like how they force me to drive on the right side of the road. Why can't i drive on the left? That would be far more fun!

Neisan_Quetz

05-05-2012, 03:31 AM

That was so stupid, I don't know what to say.

Alhanelem

05-05-2012, 05:41 AM

That was so stupid, I don't know what to say.
If lame analogies are the only way i can get through, then that's what I have to do. Restrictions usually exist for a reason. We may not like the restriction, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't exist.

Neisan_Quetz

05-05-2012, 06:12 AM

It wasn't a lame analogy, it was a incredibly stupid one. The only thing I got is you have no real argument for keeping them at 15 merits maximum other than 'because SE said so'.

Elexia

05-05-2012, 07:00 AM

We're not children.

People sure act like it when someone disagrees with something :|

Camiie

05-05-2012, 07:44 AM

People sure act like it when someone disagrees with something :|

I think it's the other way around this time. I at least tried to offer some sort of reasoning beyond "me like" or "me not like." There wasn't so much of that from the disagree side.

I don't understand the thinking behind merits being about specialization when the rest of the game seems to be the opposite of that. FFXI offers a freedom through the job system that no other game does except for XIV as far as I know, and it's one of the biggest selling points. Why then are some people so adamant that that freedom be quashed when it comes to merits? People rail that the game has become too fast and too easy, and yet this would at least add a bit of time to most people's leveling/meriting experience. I really can't see the downside here. I'm waiting for someone to show it to me.

The only things I've heard are someone saying they don't like the idea, saying that this is how SE intended things to be, if everyone max everything there'd be nothing to differentiate one person from another, and the slippery slope argument. I'm certainly no genius debater, but I can't find sound reasoning here.

If someone doesn't like it they don't have to merit what they don't want to. There's certainly no reason to merit a WS for a job you don't possess. I only level and merit what I want to. If someone does want to level every job and merit the WS for each then I see nothing wrong with giving them that freedom. It's not going to turn them into some game-breaking immortal god of destruction.

As far as SE's intentions, well I'd like to tell them where they can shove their intentions, but I'll be fair and say that an MMO is a special kind of game. It changes and evolves over time based on player feedback. In my opinion, a good MMO is one where the devs are willing to compromise with the players for the sake of fun. This is one of those times I feel some compromise is in order. AT LEAST meet us in the middle, or unlock 1 or 2 more now and then more over time.

And the slippery slope? There's a reason that's listed under fallacies.

Look the core of the game is about having the freedom to play the game to its fullest on a single character. Yes there are limits, and for many of them, understandably so. This is not one of those understandable limits. In a game where we can fully level every single job to cap on a single character we suddenly hit this arbitrary wall that doesn't mesh with anything that came before? Why? I don't get it. I don't know why people are so fond of the idea. I certainly hope those same people wouldn't turn me away because of the very same limits they wish to impose on me.

Alhanelem

05-05-2012, 09:25 AM

It wasn't a lame analogy, it was a incredibly stupid one. The only thing I got is you have no real argument for keeping them at 15 merits maximum other than 'because SE said so'.
That's not really what I'm saying, but even if we look at it the way you are, what's wrong with that reason? It's their game, they made it, they chose how the systems worked.

Lots of people have most if not every job now. Gear and merits are the last things that distinguish one player from another beyond "skill" (as if this game requires it). The Job specific merits and the weaponskill merits are basically the ones that indicate which jobs you prefer to play most. I don't think that should change.

I wouldn't fight 5-10 more points to spend, as that wouldn't take this away. I would and will fight being able to max out all/most of them because it would negatively impact the system.

I don't understand the thinking behind merits being about specialization when the rest of the game seems to be the opposite of thatBut this sentence says you DO understand it. The "rest of the game" doesn't offer much oppertunity to specialize or get personal. Merit points are the primary point of where customization comes into play. Are you suggesting that if we have one customizable feature, we need to have XYZ number of customizable features before we call it "customization?"

And the slippery slope? There's a reason that's listed under fallacies.What makes the slippery slope a fallacy is that logic can't determine (without additional proveable premises) that a bunch of unknown, unspecified things will lead in a chain to a particular final result. It's not that it would or would not happen, its that the outcome cannot be proven- thus it does not improve an argument by itself.

If you want to ignore all the above, then I'll just make one thing clear: I cannot support a vague topic title with an accompanying first post saying "pretty simple." It needs to specify how many points should be added and the reasoning for it. The OP has done none of these things, and thus cannot convince me that a change is necessary or beneficial.

Neisan_Quetz

05-05-2012, 09:59 AM

That's not really what I'm saying, but even if we look at it the way you are, what's wrong with that reason? It's their game, they made it, they chose how the systems worked.

You're talking about the same people who were 'surprised' at how people played SMN saying it was not ther intention for it be used that way.

Lots of people have most if not every job now. Gear and merits are the last things that distinguish one player from another beyond "skill" (as if this game requires it). The Job specific merits and the weaponskill merits are basically the ones that indicate which jobs you prefer to play most. I don't think that should change.

If they had left the weaponskills the way they were at first testing I would agree... but 3 is far too limiting no matter how you try to cut it considering how useful some of these weaponskills are.

I wouldn't fight 5-10 more points to spend, as that wouldn't take this away. I would and will fight being able to max out all/most of them because it would negatively impact the system.

Agreed, that's what I'm asking for. The OP actually stated such in another thread, so I'm guessing they were just lazy.

Vitus

05-05-2012, 11:46 AM

Disagree, and not liked. You should have to specialize, that's what merits were originally about.

You can already merit them all if you don't mind them not being as good.

Do make sure you understand what you are saying.
From the very beginning, this game is not meant for specialization. Everybody and their sisters have the same skill trees and identical builds from the ground up. You want to heal better? Play WHM! You want to debuff better? There is RDM. The Specialization system is the job system in FFXI. Absolutely no different within jobs whatsoever. You might argue that the Merit system offers alternative builds that FFXI originally lack. Still, Any WAR can do do dmg as good as any other War and WHMs still healing identially good in any builds. It offers little to no different in performance that's laughable at best. And even the VW proc's system currently undermines it even further.

The current Devs are so close-minded and lack foresights that anything new and fun is considered game breaking. Any radical change to the game is prohibited due to fear of evaporate away the remaining fanboys. What I think they will do on this stage of the game is trickling in tinny content here and there with extreme timeshink. After all, they're part of a business, and a business' goal is to milk you until the end of time.

Alhanelem

05-05-2012, 12:44 PM

From the very beginning, this game is not meant for specialization.Do understand what you're saying. Who are you to say "the game isn't meant for it?" It has it! Sure, not on the same scale as some other games- but it exists, and where it exists, it should not be removed.

Still, Any WAR can do do dmg as good as any other War and WHMs still healing identially good in any builds. It offers little to no different in performance that's laughable at best.The funny thing is there have been recent adjustments and are more coming in order to make many of the merit abilities more influential- largely by cutting the crippling recast timers that prevented many of the abilities from even being considered or used. It also depends a lot on the job, some jobs have more significant merits than others (and more significant choices to make).

The current Devs are so close-minded and lack foresights that anything new and fun is considered game breaking. Any radical change to the game is prohibited due to fear of evaporate away the remaining fanboys. Though it's not really at issue in the first place, I can't dispute this. of course, from time to time the players are just as guilty of being closed minded.

Tsukino_Kaji

05-05-2012, 01:42 PM

It wasn't a lame analogy, it was a incredibly stupid one. The only thing I got is you have no real argument for keeping them at 15 merits maximum other than 'because SE said so'.Am argument for the increase: You can level any individual skill and instantly gain every weapon skill therein. Why are you not allowed now, to have all of the weapon skills?

Fupafighter

05-05-2012, 02:56 PM

Arcon

05-05-2012, 06:16 PM

That's not really what I'm saying, but even if we look at it the way you are, what's wrong with that reason? It's their game, they made it, they chose how the systems worked.

That's why we're here giving feedback and game suggestions. We point out what of what they consider was worth implementing is retarded and occasionally they listen and change it. According to that reasoning there wouldn't be a need to suggest anything, ever, because SE designed it the way it is now and we should stop complaining.

Sparthos

05-06-2012, 01:09 AM

5 would be perfect. 3 is just dumb and limits alot of peoples decisions on what to merit. I don't want to favor 3 jobs that already have everything, then all my other jobs feel shitty and pointless to play.

This is exactly the feeling I got to start the thread.

I'm thinking of picking up DRG but since my skills in new merits are capped I can't level Stardiver to cap meaning I'll be stuck with Drakesbane which means being useless compared to Stardiver DRGs.

So I'd have to demerit something or avoid the class altogether. Thanks arbitrary caps?

Alhanelem

05-06-2012, 01:30 AM

then all my other jobs feel shitty and pointless to play.list all the jobs where not having the merit WS would make that job "shitty" and "pointless to play." I can't really think of many.

So I'd have to demerit something or avoid the class altogether.Neither? You act as if this WS like triples your total damage output over time or something. as per above, few if any of these WS are so vital to a job that they're "unplayable" without it.

Don't get me wrong, because I've already backed the increase from 15 to 25 points- but you are exaggerating big time here.

tyrantsyn

05-06-2012, 01:44 AM

Some one explain to me where being a specialist in a weapon skill mean's anything pass being able to produce damage. Or why you'd even use the word in the same sentence. No one's out there doing shout party's saying "I need a upheaval WAR, full merits" to get something accomplished. There's no quest/mission that require's it in any way. This debate on being a specialist in a merited ws just seems silly to me.

Sparthos

05-06-2012, 01:57 AM

list all the jobs where not having the merit WS would make that job "shitty" and "pointless to play." I can't really think of many.

Neither? You act as if this WS like triples your total damage output over time or something. as per above, few if any of these WS are so vital to a job that they're "unplayable" without it.

Don't get me wrong, because I've already backed the increase from 15 to 25 points- but you are exaggerating big time here.

WAR - Lacking Ukko's, Upheaval is the best WS with Raging Rush coming in behind both.
SAM - Fudo maintains aftermath, Shoha is for doing damage. Everything else doesn't compare.
DRG - Stardiver is a significant improvement on Drakesbane. Drakesbanes attack penalty tilts things further towards diver depending on situation.
DRK - Resolution absolutely destroys every other WS in the GSWD arsenal handily. Entropy does the same with Scythe WS options.
BST - Ruinator stomps on every other Axe WS, has an attack bonus and is modified by STR. Nothing comes close.

RAIST

05-06-2012, 02:59 AM

you also need to consider the new skillchain possibilities these WS open up. Some jobs without relics/mythics/empy's pickup new opportunities to open/close light/darkness chains with the merit WS to increase a group's damage potential as well.

Tsukino_Kaji

05-06-2012, 03:46 AM

5 would be perfect. 3 is just dumb and limits alot of peoples decisions on what to merit. I don't want to favor 3 jobs that already have everything, then all my other jobs feel shitty and pointless to play.In all honesty Fuppy, I didn't even need one of them. The only WS job I realy ever play is nin and I already had lolnnagi. So it left me with an excruciating choise of what I wanted to dump 100 merits into so I could never use it. SJS/Req/Star btw.
I still see no point to the limitation though.

SpankWustler

05-06-2012, 07:42 AM

Going from a cap of 15 to a cap of 25 be a huge improvement while still keeping the Development Bros vision of whatever they have a vision of. Some say they envision customization, but I still suspect their vision involves a huge spider living in a small apartment. He battles chronic depression and an overwhelming urge to drink the liquified innards of the downstairs neighbors.

Each night, he has a nightmare about his ex-girlfriend becoming pregnant and eating his head. Anyway...weaponskills...merits...yeah...

A total of five capped weaponskills would would allow somebody with a ton of a ton of jobs and a smattering of Empyrean and Relic Weapons to merit more-or-less all of the "best in class" weaponskills. This person could cap Last Stand, Ruinator, Resolution, Tachi: Shoha and one other thing according to whichever Relic or Empyrean weaponskill of his or hers sucked the most.

Someone with more than three jobs and no such weapons or only Relic Weapons would benefit even more from this change, for obvious reasons.

You act as if this WS like triples your total damage output over time or something. as per above, few if any of these WS are so vital to a job that they're "unplayable" without it.

While none of the merit weaponskills are that epic compared to others, 10-25% better is still better and every improvement in Final Fantasy XI since the dawn of dawns dawning has been a small increment.

Having Ruinator on Beastmaster, Last Stand on Corsair, or Resolution on Dark Knight; for example, is huge difference in performance compared to the effect of merits in skill levels or HP or other "across all jobs" merits. A huge difference compared to a lot of other stuff, too.

The jobs aren't useless without them, but someone who wanted to perform well would definitely notice a big difference.

Anapingofness

05-06-2012, 12:07 PM

All this talk about choice and being forced to choose... Sweet Jeebus people... There is one thing that's being overlooked. (And really, if it was stated then I apologize but Imma say it anyway)

Ya know what kids? Even if we had the ability to cap out each and every merit-able weapon skill it still wouldn't mean that we would do it. That is what having a choice is, if we really wanna be nit picky. Much like now and before (when the lvl cap was 75) people had the choice to lvl each and every job to cap.

Did they?
Certainly, some did and many other players didn't. So what's the big deal?

I say give us the option to merit the weapon skills. Some people will do it, some people won't. It won't break the game anyway seeing as the player has to be both a certain physical level as well as a skill level.

More importantly- only those players who would want to merit all of them will do it and those who want to specialize in one or two jobs will still have only those one or two jobs. Meaning that those who want to be the best that they can be in terms of their chosen job class will continue to be that. Having this limit removed won't effect them.

Alhanelem

05-06-2012, 01:54 PM

Ya know what kids? Even if we had the ability to cap out each and every merit-able weapon skill it still wouldn't mean that we would do it.Who wouldn't do it, other than those who haven't bothered to level a particular job yet? Even in a bad abyssea party, it doesn't take that long to max a WS.

Much like now and before (when the lvl cap was 75) people had the choice to lvl each and every job to cap. When the level cap was 75, it was easy and reasonable to pick a few jobs- it took a long time to cap one job and not everyone enjoys the grinding part of the game. Now it can be pretty easily done in less than a week even without leeching or playing all day long, so people who stick to a few jobs are looked at as gimping themselves. This is a significant part of why I'm against completely lifting the merit limits (I accept that the WS category limit is too low, however).

Krashport

05-06-2012, 02:48 PM

Group 1 Merits.
Berserk Recast 25/25
Defender Recast 25/25
Warcry Recast 25/25
Aggressor Recast 25/25
Double Attack Rate 25/25

Group 2 Merits.
Warrior's Charge 25/25
Tomahawk 25/25
Savagery 25/25
Aggressive Aim 25/25

Weapon skill Group Merits.
Upheaval 25/25

Blah let them lift every merit ability, every dang merit group in the game. Why start/stop at just weapon skill groups. I want to be able to fully cap all my jobs, In every merit category. Lets not just stop at 5/5, Lets up it to 25/25... /sarcasm!

Arcon

05-06-2012, 03:45 PM

/sarcasm!

No sarcasm necessary. Well, the 25 is clearly overpowered, especially when it comes to recast times, but why not let us merit everything fully? Would it be overpowered if Warriors could get a TP bonus on Warcry and use Tomahawks as well as Warrior's Charge? I already said specialization isn't needed. It should never be needed. Yet they go and make merit abilities procs for Voidwatch. So I have to give up playing how I want to if I wanna be effective in Voidwatch? Specialization is completely unneeded in this game and goes against what many people consider one of the game's strongest points, namely the flexible job system, allowing everyone to experience everything they want without having to start over. Merits restrictions completely defy that. Just lift all the combination limits on merit points and let everyone be happy.

Anapingofness

05-07-2012, 02:02 AM

Who wouldn't do it, other than those who haven't bothered to level a particular job yet?
.

Exactly my point.

Why haven't they bothered to level a particular job?
Because they don't want to, for the most part. A lot of people don't like certain jobs and will never level them.

Having a few jobs is seen as gimping themselves?
Since when?

Most people specialize. Even though the grind to lvl cap has been greatly shortened actually playing the chosen job well, ungimping skill levels, and outfitting a job still takes a lot of time.
For example:
If you like playing a healer then you will continue to play as a healer. You may decide to mess around with a melee job but in the end, the people who know you (ls mates, friends, etc) will know which job is your best job.

Think of it this way. Remember the unlockable lvl 70ish trial weapon skills (Asuran Fists, Evisceration, etc)?
Having all of the merited weapon skills unlocked is much like those weapon skills. Some of them are pretty good, others not so great and for certain jobs it didn't matter anyway. (Did it really matter if a BRD had Evisceration? A WHM having Black Halo?)

Fact is, you could only use one at a time. Even if you were a WAR you could still only use one at a time because they are weapon bound- which means that you have to change weapons in order to use them. In some cases they are job bound so it still limits which jobs can use them. A puppetmaster can't use Asuran Fists w/o subbing mnk. A Black Mage doesn't have the ability to use Black Halo even if it can get up to the appropriate skill level.

Nobody ever said you can only have x5 trial weapon skills.

More importantly we have the option of doing every, single Relic Weapon and obtaining the Relic Weapon Skills, the Mythic Weapons and their Weapon Skills, and lastly the Empyrean weapons and their Weapon Skills. The Empyrean WS's are supposed to be better, in theory anyway.

So basically, I'm allowed to get all of those without a having a cap placed on them but not merited weapon skills? Come on, that's just plain stupid.

So what if a few weapon skills cross over between jobs? They are still limited by which jobs can use them.

Having the ability to obtain these weapon skills isn't game breaking. It doesn't even upset the balance of the game in the least bit. That's why I think they should just lift the cap and let people have the option to cap out as many as they want.

Alhanelem

05-07-2012, 05:10 AM

Having a few jobs is seen as gimping themselves?
Since when?anytime anyone posts about problems with a particular job, or not being able to get a group for certain content on certain jobs, the immediate response from most people is "get off your arse and level a job that's useful for that content." This basically means "you're gimp, now go ungimp yourself then come back."

Granted- not EVERYBODY acts like this. but it's a problem.

Having the ability to obtain these weapon skills isn't game breaking. It doesn't even upset the balance of the game in the least bit.The people testifying how awsome some of these weaponskills are leads me to believe otherwise. If what they say is to be believed, you GOTTA HAVE EM or you can't play that job. That tells me that they do upset the balance. (Do I want them to be nerfed or even necessarily agree with the above? No. But if they are that good, then they do have an impact on balance, you can't just say that they don't)

Blah. I've already supported the thread with the specific changes in mind. I don't and won't support maxing of all of them, but an increase in the limit from 15 to 25 points would allow more freedom to choose while still having the choice be there.

Nala

05-07-2012, 09:14 AM

Oy, if this game were truely about specialization then we'd start getting ability tree's and WoW like point allocations to limit how each job can function and further enhance various traits.

Being as we dont, cat 2 merit ja's or traits are hardly game breaking enough for that argument to prevail, aura steal, sange, blade bash ect. all too under powered or with too long of recast timers to matter leaving you with only a few real choices be it cat 1 or 2, that is if you want to perform optimally. this game is not meant to be about specialization. if it were we'd further be limited on how many jobs one character could level, SPECIALIZATION the new balance word =.=

To try and make merited ws's about specialization is about as silly as the sange update or any of the things the Dev team seem to find more worthy of their attention then actual pertinant matters.

Teraniku

05-07-2012, 05:57 PM

hmm okay. just muddled through this topic and I have to say, with merits as easy to get as gil now a days, after SE ups it to 5 fully meritable WS, Someone will ask for 7 or 8. Why not ? it's only a little more than half? It's not game breaking.

I'd like to see a survey on the people who have ALL weaponskills capped. This is just like the WSNM abilities except for the fact you can get all of the WSNM, provided your skill in each weapon is high enough. So being able to merit all of them isn't game breaking and as long as someone puts the time into it, I don't see why not.

Neisan_Quetz

05-07-2012, 07:56 PM

Slippery slope argument, stop doing it.

hiko

05-07-2012, 08:01 PM

HimuraKenshyn

05-07-2012, 10:19 PM

The 3 merit ws limit is lame and just adds to players frustration with the game lately my friends are logging in less and less moving on to all the newer mmo's guess time catches up with us all. SE needs to get with the program....

Alhanelem

05-08-2012, 05:01 AM

unless he only leveled "not wanted" jobsThe thing is, a majority of jobs are "not wanted." There are only really 2 core roles in this game: Damage and Support, and with 20 jobs, there's plenty of redundancy so it's eliminated by simply deciding the few that are"best" and only ever using those unless forced to (Tank is all but nonexistent in the game right now- Whichever job is capable of doing the most damage is usually the tank). "Not giimp unless you don't have the job we want" is effectually almost the same as "you're gimp if you haven't leveled every job."

Eventually, someone's going to want that one job you haven't picked, and you'll have to "gimp" your way though a fight without it. (I don't agree with this and it is not necessary to form the 100% perfect maximally optimal party setup for every fight and not doing so doesn't mean you're "gimp," but it is a commonly subscribed-to mentality) You could arguably level 3/4ths of all jobs and still be "gimp" by your definition.

FrankReynolds

05-08-2012, 05:54 AM

This : "We're not limiting you to 3 WS guys. We're giving you choices! :)"... Just sounds retarded.

Alhanelem

05-08-2012, 07:53 AM

Rekin

05-08-2012, 08:43 AM

The thing is SE has nothing to lose if the limit was increased or completely removed because the only ones who would complain are the people who like to 'force' others to play the game the way they see it. (like the people who keep asking to up aby entry cap, or make a pre-aby server, etc.) Trying to force choices on a crowd who frowns upon the motion is poor business.

Kysaiana

05-08-2012, 09:31 AM

I'm pretty sure Alhanelem is arguing for the sake of debate and likes to play devil's advocate. But I'm gonna go back to my original argument that, sans job specific merits, SE has raised the cap on all other merit categories already. Would you like to argue how it's game breaking to have 5% critical hit rate now? Or maybe 12 STR? Should have kept HP/MP merits at 8, I mean you don't want people to attempt to survive VW AoEs now do you?

If SE doesn't want to raise the 15 merit cap then I'd suggest lowering the cap from 5 to 3 while still maintaining 100% modifier at 3/3. The percentages per merit would have to change of course but that would just make the base level WS suck less. That way the cap is still 15 merits but we get to cap 5 WS instead of 3, still quite limited but better than it is.

Spiritreaver

05-08-2012, 09:40 AM

Windwhisper

05-08-2012, 11:40 PM

You don't get it, do you: If you can get all of them, then there's no decisionmaking involved: You just get all of them. If there is a limit, you have to make a choice. SImple, isn't it?

Is the current limit too low? Yes.

Should the limit be removed entirely? No.

Make all WSs equally worth and i will agree with you. As it is right now. Realmrazer , just to name an example, is nearly completely useless. The only 2 Jobs that use club at all are BLU and WHM. Hexastrike is worth more than Realmrazer and any other job that can use a club has much much better choices. Or do you see a WAR or PLD running around with clubs other than to proc a weakness?

Neisan_Quetz

05-09-2012, 12:33 AM

Realmrazer isn't worthless outside, with replicating ftp it should average better than Hexa. Might even be used for Prd (if they had a good club) than using requiescat on harder mobs if you don't have excal/almace/burt. Apex Arrow on the other hand...

RAIST

05-09-2012, 02:28 AM

Apex Arrow..... That brings my predicament to light. I unlocked Apex to use on SAM for when we need the piercing setups so I don't have to /RNG. Until other members of the pack get their RNG or COR leveled up more, I'm the one that shoots things in the butt in these situations. Further nerfs me when I am already at a disadvantage with 3 mage and 7 melee jobs, among them SMN (who COULD make use of Shattersoul, depending on your playstyle), SAM, DRG, DRK, WAR, NIN.......at best I'm looking at having 1 or 2 capped and the rest being nerfed compared to their best WS prior to merit WS being added. Still haven't decided just where I'm going to distribute the last couple points.

SE REALLY needs to rethink their stance on these. As has been mentioned, we can already unlock all the previously "specialized" WS. I have all WSNM's done except for ranged (because I didn't level a required job high enough). The bulk of those were SOLOED--only had assistance on three of them when I first started unlocking them.

There is really little to justify clamping down on these WS....it's just SE wanting to hold us back for some reason.

Neisan_Quetz

05-09-2012, 03:28 AM

Demerit Apex Arrow and don't look back. If you're firing at range on Sam you're on the wrong job. If you need piercing bonus that badly you're better off meriting stardiver and using a polearm.

Alhanelem

05-09-2012, 04:58 AM

Make all WSs equally worth and i will agree with you. As it is right now. Realmrazer Realmrazer is not worthless. It's more accurate to say that you feel it's worthless for those jobs to have it. And the fact is, PLD can use it too- If not for the fact that only WHM gets all the good clubs, it would be a good WS for PLD.. The weaponskills are available to all jobs with worthwhile skill level in that weapon (the minimum skill required to meet the requirements at level 96, which is C+). Any job that isn't on a particular WS probably wouldn't be using that weapon type anyway, with the only real exception being scholar whose only likely weapon type is C+.

Shattersoul is also the best staff WS by miles and miles.
There may be some quesitonable WS, but I don't think those are the ones. The fact that you feel that <insert mage job> will never/shouldn't/doesn't use a WS ever does not make the weaponskills bad.

In short: Most of the WS are worth something to somebody. Whether or not a particular WS is "worth it" to you should be your primary basis for choosing which ones to merit. In my case, I maxed Shattersoul, and for my personal needs, it's totally worth it. Your mileage may vary, of course. I'm not entirely sure which weaponskills are terrible for anyone that might ever try to use them. Which jobs can use a WS is not a metric for how good the WS itself is, at least not from where I stand.

RAIST

05-09-2012, 08:48 AM

Demerit Apex Arrow and don't look back. If you're firing at range on Sam you're on the wrong job. If you need piercing bonus that badly you're better off meriting stardiver and using a polearm.

Tried that before....got a bit hectic when I wound up taking over the tanks roll. It's also sometimes better to be pelting away from a distance without consuming too much hate, leaving the healers to concentrate on just healing one person. I often will pull out my bow and /range when I'm weakened, another situation when being able to do moderate damage without taking hate helps out.

The point is, some WS have specific utility in certain situations. If we want to take advantage of that utility (for whatever reason that may be) we have to nerf something somewhere else. It's SE's twisted little game to keep us in check somehow I guess....just doesn't make much sense in the grander scheme of things when you compare to all the freedom they give us with our builds in other aspects.

Oh, and having Stardiver for SAM is another issue. If I want GK, Scythe, GS, however many I feel compelled to have....not much left for Stardiver is there? May be better off using Penta instead---which makes the merit WS system a bit self-defeating with the steep restrictions on it if you are looking at them from a damage standpoint and not utility.

FrankReynolds

05-10-2012, 08:22 AM

Llana_Virren

05-10-2012, 08:51 AM

... and the benefit of being forced to choose...?

Customization. Which was SE's modus operandi when the merit system was introduced. Although some merit categories are so unbalanced that everyone picks the same merits, the intent was to allow characters to customize themselves beyond the copy-pasta gear that everyone wears at max level.

Reiterpallasch

05-10-2012, 09:39 AM

Customization. Which was SE's modus operandi when the merit system was introduced. Although some merit categories are so unbalanced that everyone picks the same merits, the intent was to allow characters to customize themselves beyond the copy-pasta gear that everyone wears at max level.
Wouldn't say everyone. There's always that one guy each census that decided to cap their defender merits.

Llana_Virren

05-10-2012, 09:51 AM

Wouldn't say everyone.

Well played, sir, well played. :P

Although, yes, there is always that one guy, the merit system was designed for customization, not "evolution".

Maybe add another public (non-job-specific) category for meritting job traits?

Duel Wield
Double Attack Rate (stacking with WAR merits)
Triple Attack Rate (stacking with THF merits)
Quad Attack Rate (maybe...?)
Provoke potency
Circle effect potency/duration
Fast Cast
Conserve MP
Auto-Regen (1/tic)
Auto-Refresh (1/tic)
Auto-Regain (1/tic)
Cure Potency (up to 5%)
Magic Accuracy (up to +10)
MAB (up to +10)
MDB (up to +10)

etc, etc

You know, just throwing out some crazy ideas, 'cause that's how we do it here in the FFXI Oh Eff!

FrankReynolds

05-10-2012, 02:04 PM

Customization is good in theory, but annoying in practice.

When you are trying to put together a group, having people say "I have <insert job here> leveled, but it sucks because I spent all my merits on puppetmaster..." does not make the game more fun for anyone in reality.

Camiie

05-11-2012, 07:52 PM

Customization. Which was SE's modus operandi when the merit system was introduced. Although some merit categories are so unbalanced that everyone picks the same merits, the intent was to allow characters to customize themselves beyond the copy-pasta gear that everyone wears at max level.

Customization: "To make or alter to individual or personal specifications."
Hmmm. My individual or personal specifications are not able to be met by the merit system as is where weapon skills are concerned.

Gropitou

05-12-2012, 12:08 AM

Let us cap each meritable WS, with the bucketload of merit points we get doing VW, why let them go to waste?

Alhanelem

05-12-2012, 06:41 AM

Customization: "To make or alter to individual or personal specifications."
Hmmm. My individual or personal specifications are not able to be met by the merit system as is where weapon skills are concerned.
That seems to be solely due to the fact that your personal specifications appear to be "I want to have everything and everything, and no less." Having everything means zero customization, because there are no specifications to make or alter.

... and the benefit of being forced to choose not to get some of them that you really want is?I'm not being forced to choose not to get some of the ones I really want, because i have all the ones I really want. All of the rest would just be fluff for me. As i've already posted numerous times in this thread (though people still seem to want to pick on me in spite of it), the limit might be too low for the average person to pick out the ones they really want, and it should be increased. however, there should still be a limit. Otherwise, it ceases to be a facet of customization, as th ere is no tailoring to personal tastes involved since you could just get everything.

Camiie

05-12-2012, 07:14 AM

That seems to be solely due to the fact that your personal specifications appear to be "I want to have everything and everything, and no less." Having everything means zero customization, because there are no specifications to make or alter.

I don't want all the WS. I can't even use them all. I would like to be able to get at one for every job I have to 99 though. I have 6 jobs leveled to 99 and at least one weapon type leveled to 357+ for each. I want to go out and collect 100 merit points for each job. I don't want to leech those merit points either. What's so wrong with what I want?

saevel

05-12-2012, 09:34 AM

Three is entirely too limiting, especially as some of these are much better then their Emp counterparts. I can easily see five or six being a good amount, allows people more versatility.

Nala

05-12-2012, 09:36 AM

Because we have one and only one real category in the merit system that choice really matters doesn't make you a special snow flake Alhanelem, in a game where you can level EVERY job and the only true limit to your capabilities is how many situations you gear for and how good those sets are and your ability to use them at the right time/place, your arguement carries no weight, if they want to go ahead and revamp the entire merit system into ability trees, ones with actual and viable choices in all paths added then we have true character customization and uniqueness.

Oh i got a good idea lets limit the max number of spells any job can learn so you have to pick and choose what kind of BLM or SCH you want to be sorry limit of two TV spells.

I think you just enjoy arguing for arguments sake which is probably not a bad thing inspires people to add their ideas into a topic i suppose. To clarify my previous paragraph was not serious, that would be a terrible idea.

FrankReynolds

05-12-2012, 10:48 AM

I don't want anymore weapon skills. Therefore other people shouldn't have more either.

Yes, obviously everyone would get them even if they didnt want / need them, just because they can....

By your logic, every billionaire d-bag would own every model of automobile, right down to the ford festiva. Not because they want or need one, but because they can. I have yet to see footage of George Clooney's famous Hyundai collection.

People would still only have the weapon skills they want. Even if they could have them all, only people who want them all would get them all. Ever notice how few maat's caps you see? .... "But everyone can get all the jobs to 99... where's the customization? oh noes!"

Alhanelem

05-12-2012, 10:06 PM

I don't want all the WS. I can't even use them all. I would like to be able to get at one for every job I have to 99 though.
"I want to have everything and everything, and no less."sorry, I don't see much difference here. you are essentially saying there should be no limit, so you can have everything- only that it should be "unlocked" over time. No, it should not be that way, because then there is no decision to be made, no customization, and no distrinction between characters as far as who is more into what jobs. The time it takes to merit a WS is trivial, there's no reason not to unlock them all if there is no limit.

I fully support a limit increase. I do not and will not support a limit removal. I've already endorsed the other thread proposing a specific limit increase, over this one just saying "GIMME."

Zerich

05-12-2012, 10:13 PM

but a billionaire db can own every model car ever made, if they want/can afford it...

they'll probably up the cap when content comes to another complete halt, to give us an artificial 'update'.

Rekin

05-12-2012, 11:02 PM

Alhanelem your entire argument against raising the cap involves straw manning stop it.

As many of the above posters mentioned simply letting players cap out all the WSes won't change much. What does it matter to anyone else if someone decides to level a few more WSes or all of them? Key answer is nothing.

FrankReynolds

05-13-2012, 01:39 AM

sorry, I don't see much difference here. you are essentially saying there should be no limit, so you can have everything- only that it should be "unlocked" over time. No, it should not be that way, because then there is no decision to be made, no customization, and no distrinction between characters as far as who is more into what jobs. The time it takes to merit a WS is trivial, there's no reason not to unlock them all if there is no limit.

I fully support a limit increase. I do not and will not support a limit removal. I've already endorsed the other thread proposing a specific limit increase, over this one just saying "GIMME."

Lol at the "GIMME" thing. That's exactly what this forum is for. Acting like people are spoiled for asking for what they want in a video game is not going to validate your argument.

When I walk through PJ and every single person literally has every single piece of gear and every single generic merit and every single job level maxed out and they have all copied each others macros and gear sets, and the only thing left is for them do decide which WS to merit...
...
...
...
even then your argument will still be pointless.

It's a video game guy. It has been distributed to millions of people, across the entire globe. You are not a special and unique snow flake. You will never come up with a gear selection, merit selection, macro or technique that has not already been used by 1,000 other people already. Stop with the customization and uniqueness arguments. They will never hold weight.

Camiie

05-13-2012, 02:02 AM

sorry, I don't see much difference here. you are essentially saying there should be no limit, so you can have everything- only that it should be "unlocked" over time. No, it should not be that way, because then there is no decision to be made, no customization, and no distrinction between characters as far as who is more into what jobs. The time it takes to merit a WS is trivial, there's no reason not to unlock them all if there is no limit.

There is a distinction between characters. There's race, appearance, the jobs we have leveled, the gear we're willing/able to obtain, and the differences between us as players. I'm not you, you're not me, and neither of us is the guy or girl over there.

There is a reason to not unlock them all if there's no limit. There is a reason not everyone has every job leveled to 99, much less geared and useable. It's called personal taste. I don't need someone to tell me I can't have them all. However, if I was the type to want to level everything, and again I AM NOT, I don't think it's right to penalize people who want to play that way after offering them just the opposite for the vast majority of the game. If the limits were there from level 1 that's fine. You can't close Pandora's Box once it's opened. You can't clamp down on freedom once people have tasted it.

I fully support a limit increase. I do not and will not support a limit removal. I've already endorsed the other thread proposing a specific limit increase, over this one just saying "GIMME."

I'm glad you support the increase, and I'd be willing to accept that as a compromise. I'm not this guy...

http://www.absoluteanime.com/big-o/thumbs/_roger.jpg

...but the art of negotiation isn't completely lost on me.

Fupafighter

05-13-2012, 08:09 AM

I look at it this way, what is my 90 masamune sam w.o shoha, what is my drg w.o stardiver, what is my dnc and thf w.o exent? I would love to ger resolution and that spiral move for my drk war pup and mnk, but thats not possible without gimping my other jobs. I know shajin spiral isnt needed because of the verethregna, but I want it for the skillchain reasons for pup lol. If I droped exent, my dnc is horrible, and I'm better off going sam or drg lol, and same with my sam not having shoha or my drg not having stardiver, then my other DD jobs just seem better and more FUN FUN FUN to play. My dark knight is useless to play because I don't have the merits to give it a decent ws.

Alhanelem

05-13-2012, 10:23 AM

I don't think it's right to penalize people who want to play that way after offering them just the opposite for the vast majority of the game.here's the thing. Most other games, 1 character = 1 class. In these games, it's much easier to choose to specialize in one or a few of them- you have to do a ton of quests all over again, so it's a pain in the butt. In FFXI, it's a much eaiser process to play different classes. This means many people have all of them and even the fussiest specialists have at least a few because they got bored enough to try another class. So how do you seperate the people who have truly mastered one or a few jobs from the people that have every job? Other than gear, the only way is to force people to choose which jobs they want to be able to strengthen the most. Gear doesn't really count- Only a small selection of gear in the game that is wanted is especially hard to get, and it's mostly the super weapons. So what it ends up coming down to is do you have a lv90+ relic/mythic/empy for a job or not. Placing some restrictions on the merit system creates at least a small way to spec your character.

I would love to ger resolution and that spiral move for my drk war pup and mnk, but thats not possible without gimping my other jobs.I would love to get resolution and that spiral move for my drk war pup and mnk, but that's not possible because I want to strengthen my other jobs more.

That's how you should be reading it. You aren't gimping jobs, you're chosing which ones you want to be better. Remember, you didn't have any of these WS at one point.

This reminds me of the rested EXP system in WoW. At first it was a penalty or the absence of a penalty. Then they reworded things, called it a bonus, and suddenly everyone thought it was a bonus or lack of a bonus (They never actually changed the system, they simply changed the "tired" state to "normal" and "normal" to "rested bonus"- the actual numbers behind the system never changed). It's all a matter of perception. I don't see choosing one weapon skill over another as choosing which job to gimp. I see it as choosing which one to make stronger. When I choose to merit STR over INT, I'm choosing to boost my DD jobs, not choosing to gimp my mage jobs. You pick the merits that favor the jobs you want to play most- that's what the merit system is for. If someone asks you "which jobs are you best at?" you should not ever be able to answer "all of them."

HOWEVER... When you consider the typical number of jobs that a person plays, the system may be too confining- that's why i support the limit increase. I would agree it's hard fro many to say just three jobs are your favorites out of 20. 5? Seems reasonable to me.

I think you just enjoy arguing for arguments sake which is probably not a bad thing inspires people to add their ideas into a topic i suppose.No, i'm not arguing just for argument's sake. I'm arguing this issue because it is an issue I have feelings about it and I would prefer it to be addressed in one way more than the other.

Nala

05-13-2012, 10:46 AM

no you've been arguing that we should specialize, which in a game about specialization is fine and dandy this isn't one of those games, just because you can level all jobs means you do, just because you can merit all ws's means you will either, example i've yet to even do the quest to unlock paladin, eventually i will however for now i do not feel like it, similarly with whm, i took it to 50 for subjob purposes and a certain level of self utility, otherwise i do not particularly enjoy the healer role.

Thats 2 mythic ws's that i could unlock should i level the jobs, hell i still haven't done some of the 500 point questable weapon skills. Honestly with capping at 30 merits and having to leave abyssea to actually apply my merits to the weapon skill i'd only be meriting weaponskills i might actually use, for me atm that'd be blade: shun and shinjin spiral, my staff skill is too low to unlock soul shatter (do i have the right name? meh) not that i melee on blm or sch anyways, nor is tp practical due to staff swaping. the rest of the merited ws's i do not have high enough skill or the right jobs to merit/make use of them.

Alhanelem

05-13-2012, 11:00 AM

no you've been arguing that we should specialize, which in a game about specializationWhat game is "about" specialization? that's not a game I want to play. Specialization is just one component of a game. it's not what any particular game is "about." Speccing is only a minor part of this game, but it's what the merit system is supposed to do. It's not just "EXP at the level cap." If that's what it was, you may as well just continue to have more levels instead of "forcing" us to spend points on things.

If they didn't want any kind of specialization in this game, the merit system would never have been put in the game. even before it came out, we were all likening it to WoW's talent system.

Fupafighter

05-13-2012, 11:29 AM

Shut up alhan lol. This is ffxi, not another MMO. Specialization doesn't exist in FFXI, and the specialization that does exist, is made of gimps thinking that they are doing fine while everyone else is going "wtf are you doing". Why would I want to play my drk when my sam does it better because of a ws i merited. It completely makes certain jobs useless to me.

Alhanelem

05-13-2012, 11:45 AM

Specialization doesn't exist in FFXI, and the specialization that does exist"It doesn't exist, but it does." You can fuss over how much speccing is in the game, but the fact is there is some. It's not the main focus of the advancement system as a whole, but that doesn't mean it's not there nor does it mean it shouldn't exist. Next, try expressing your thoughts without being rude.

Why would I want to play my drk when my sam does it better because of a ws i merited. Because you'd rather play DRK? Am I the only person in this game who chooses their favorite jobs based on which are the most fun to play? If the job is useless to you, then don't play it. No one's holding a gun to your head and forcing you to. I've beaten pretty much everything prior to the existence of voidwatch with some of the most "lol" jobs in the game. Break out of your pigeonhole.

Even when/if I level <insert popular job here>, I'm not changing my merits. Why? Because I'd rather play the other jobs i enjoy. If you really need <popular job> and there's *no way in hell* to do it without it, then I have it if I really need it and I'd be happy to use it- at the same time, if someone else has that job, it would be better if that someone else went that job instead of me. I have my favorite jobs more fully decked out-I'm specialized in them and I can handle them better than the average person, especially one who hasn't specialized in them.

RAIST

05-13-2012, 11:50 AM

Break out of your pigeonhole.

That's part of the problem with the merit WS restrictions....with the current state of the game, it FORCES you to pigeonhole jobs.

Alhanelem

05-13-2012, 11:57 AM

That's part of the problem with the merit WS restrictions....with the current state of the game, it FORCES you to pigeonhole jobs.
No, it doesn't. Players force eachother to pigeonhole jobs, not the merit system. If everyone had everything merited, it wouldn't matter who did what. Since that's not possible it does matter:

"Need a WAR? My friend over there had it fully merited with the best gear. Need a DRK? My friend over there has it. Need a SCH? Oh that's great, I have that and fully merited it- that's one of my choice jobs! Great, so we have everything we need! You've got SAM merited, and I know someone who decked out WHM."

That wouldn't happen if the merit system wasn't there or it had no limits. The merits distinguish the people who "just have" a particular job from the people more devoted to that job. People are playing the popular jobs because they're popular, not because the merit system forced them to.

Neisan_Quetz

05-13-2012, 12:45 PM

And why does it matter if someone is capable of using more than 3-4 jobs now?

RAIST

05-13-2012, 12:48 PM

No, it doesn't. Players force eachother to pigeonhole jobs, not the merit system. If everyone had everything merited, it wouldn't matter who did what. Since that's not possible it does matter:

"Need a WAR? My friend over there had it fully merited with the best gear. Need a DRK? My friend over there has it. Need a SCH? Oh that's great, I have that and fully merited it- that's one of my choice jobs! Great, so we have everything we need! You've got SAM merited, and I know someone who decked out WHM."

That wouldn't happen if the merit system wasn't there or it had no limits. The merits distinguish the people who "just have" a particular job from the people more devoted to that job. People are playing the popular jobs because they're popular, not because the merit system forced them to.

You may not realize it, but I think you actually just supported my last post. Again, as I stated before:

with the current state of the game, it FORCES you to pigeonhole jobs

Bolded for emphasis. The current state of the game (as in how everyone chooses to play) makes certain jobs and setups more attractive. To get in on the action, you may HAVE to choose from ONLY the popular jobs---not necessarily the jobs you prefer to play, but what others want you to play. Come as this job, with this setup, or sorry....we don't want X Y Z, we want A B C.

So with the current restrictions, you may very well be forced to nerf your favorite job's WS selection so that you can get into content on a less preferred job in order to have a shot at getting the items/events done for your preferred job. To add insult to injury, this same state of the game may well dictate that you not only have job A, B, or C available...but also have specific Gear and/or WS available, or it's again GTFO as well.

Soo....I'll restate it again:

with the current state of the game, these WS restrictions may in fact be forcing people to pigeonhole jobs.

Nala

05-13-2012, 12:53 PM

What game is "about" specialization? that's not a game I want to play. Specialization is just one component of a game. it's not what any particular game is "about." Speccing is only a minor part of this game, but it's what the merit system is supposed to do. It's not just "EXP at the level cap." If that's what it was, you may as well just continue to have more levels instead of "forcing" us to spend points on things.

If they didn't want any kind of specialization in this game, the merit system would never have been put in the game. even before it came out, we were all likening it to WoW's talent system.

/sigh it wasn't about specialization, it was about increasing your power without leveling, a solution from when they originally said they would never increase the cap past 75.

oh and you can hit F100 nyzul without 2xSCH (among other things) right? i wont completely deny that you have choices but some choices in light of a particular goal are impractical VS the optimal cookie cutter.

No, it doesn't. Players force eachother to pigeonhole jobs, not the merit system. If everyone had everything merited, it wouldn't matter who did what.

so we could bring an alliance of 18xDRK since every one could buff heal and tank NP since they had everything merited right? /sacrasm

Meyi

05-13-2012, 01:12 PM

Disagree, and not liked. You should have to specialize, that's what merits were originally about.

You can already merit them all if you don't mind them not being as good.

According to my linkshell, you have to have all AM2 on BLM to proc in Voidwatch. So much for "specialization"...

I see nothing wrong with wanting to merit whatever a person wants to merit. If they want it all, and want to spend the time getting it, they should be allowed to.

Camiie

05-13-2012, 11:24 PM

According to my linkshell, you have to have all AM2 on BLM to proc in Voidwatch. So much for "specialization"...

Yep! Specialization flies out the window as soon as the efficiency police get their cuffs on you. We all end up meriting the same stuff anyway with few exceptions. It doesn't help that some of the "choices" are downright laughable. Aggressive Aim? Really? Yeah, I'm totally going to specialize in that!

I see nothing wrong with wanting to merit whatever a person wants to merit. If they want it all, and want to spend the time getting it, they should be allowed to.

Agreed. I'd rather have total freedom than be forced into decisions just so someone else can feel like a special snowflake.

Fupafighter

05-14-2012, 12:00 AM

Thats the whole point. I enjoy MORE than 3 jobs. I would love to play dark with some SKILL, but that involves RESOLUTION, which I DONT have room to MERIT. I'm sure alot of people would agree favoring 3 jobs out of 20 is just silly. Done talking to you, you're annoiying. Next thing you're going to do is make an argument to counter this and keep going, because that's what you do.

Alhanelem

05-14-2012, 04:22 AM

To get in on the action, you may HAVE to choose from ONLY the popular jobsI conciously avoid whatever is currently being bandwagoned. I got through virtually every event in the game just fine. You do not HAVE to choose from ONLY the popular jobs.

According to my linkshell, you have to have all AM2 on BLM to proc in Voidwatch. So much for "specialization"...Last I heard, they were planning to cut out merit abilities from the proc system. But even when you get them all, you have points left over, so you have to choose which one(s) you would like to favor using when possible.

I see nothing wrong with wanting to merit whatever a person wants to merit. If they want it all, and want to spend the time getting it, they should be allowed to. I see plenty wrong with it unless the time required to do so is high enough that it's not realistically possible to get it all. Why do people hate the idea of making decisions so much?

Agreed. I'd rather have total freedomIf you want total freedom, go play Minecraft or something. FFXI is a highly structured game, has been a highly structured game, and will continue to be a highly structured game. FFXI is not a sandbox, you do not get total freedom.

*sigh* Current score:
FREEDOM! NO LIMITS! GIMME EVERYTHING!: 394267832465
I want to make decisions about my character!: 1

In FF Tactics, why do I only get to set one other job's action abiltiies? I want to set them all!
In WoW, why can't I pick all of the talents on all the talent trees? I want them all!
Who doesn't want everything? The "gimme" mentality around here is disturbing.

It doesn't really matter, as nearly everyone with a thought on this subject is united against me. I've said my peice, you disagree with it, time to leave it at that. It's not like SE is going to radically change the system because people want everything anyway. The system has been the current way for years. I do not see it substantially changing, other than limits increased, as has been done on a few occasions in the past.

Sparthos

05-14-2012, 04:37 AM

Like I said before I'd have no issue with the current merit system if the new WS weren't head and shoulders above what you naturally gain through skillup. If you do not have the Empyrean WS or the merit WS on some weapon types you are at a huge disadvantage.

A Shoha SAM is significantly better than a SAM that still has to rely on Tachi: Gekko.
A BST with Ruinator has a significant advantage over a BST still using Rampage.
A Resolution DRK is going to blow a DRK using Spinning Slash out of the water.

In a game where minor gains are everything, these are huge improvements of a caliber that FFXI rarely achieves.

If you were actually running a real argument for a middle ground position of balance you'd bring up improving some weaponskills that are laughably bad and quite recent like Bora Axe, Cloudsplitter, Blade: Shun, Tachi: Ageha or even the retweaking weaponskills that are old like Ground Strike, Steel Cyclone or Blade: Ku.

Nala

05-14-2012, 05:33 AM

Giving access to all weapon skills is not the same as being able to spec every ability in every ability tree of wow, FFT's skill setting is much akin to subjobing your analogy fails.

Further more up until now save for certain class restrictions for select weapon skills you could learn any weapon skill or quest any weapon skill, you speak of the game's structure well this goes against that very structure that has prevailed since the start of the game, you also speak of not being forced to merit certain skills but if you play rng sam and drk primarily but use say pup mnk every now and then because you enjoy them well SoL you merit what's best for your best jobs, not for fun, not for balance, not for being a snowflake either, or in your case just a flake =.=

RAIST

05-14-2012, 05:37 AM

A Shoha SAM is significantly better than a SAM that still has to rely on Tachi: Gekko.
A BST with Ruinator has a significant advantage over a BST still using Rampage.
A Resolution DRK is going to blow a DRK using Spinning Slash out of the water.

In a game where minor gains are everything, these are huge improvements of a caliber that FFXI rarely achieves.

If you were actually running a real argument for a middle ground position of balance you'd bring up improving some weaponskills that are laughably bad and quite recent like Bora Axe, Cloudsplitter, Blade: Shun, Tachi: Ageha or even the retweaking weaponskills that are old like Ground Strike, Steel Cyclone or Blade: Ku.

Think this post is a good way to pull it all together as to why people are so at odds with the merit WS system as it is currently implemented.

I have all three of those jobs at 99, as well as 4 other DD's. I often use 4 of them specifically for events (Mostly WAR, NIN, MNK, SAM). I can only merit 3 WS--so only 3 of those jobs can be at their best, leaving the 4th in the dust. Then, there are two other jobs I like to play personally on the side (DRK, DRG), and on occasion use them in events--and I can't take them any further now than I could before.

In short, I can only advance 3 out of 6 jobs I routinely use on the DD front. Why can't I do all 6? If I merit fully for SAM (PA and GK, that leaves me only one more to work with). Prior to this I could potentially do ALL TEN OF MY JOBS TO MAXIMUM POTENTIAL (barring having to strike a balance on the stats b/c 3 of them are mages and not enough points for all skill tweaks for weapons). Yes, we had some limitations in the merit system, but it was nothing like this--it was more along the lines of are we going to focus on Mage or Melee jobs with our more general merits.

In the past, aside from having to pick and choose things like H2H meritts and such, we were all potentially on equal footing otherwise, and the only reason to pick and choose jobs was because of job specific characteristics. Now those decisions wind up eventually getting weighted towards WS options after the mandatory slots (healing, nuking, support) are filled. "If you don't have the Empy and/or merit WS options available, sorry....we don't want you on the front line."

All we are really asking for is for them to be more consistent with how it was done in the past--we're talking over 7 YEARS of freedom, and now they clamp down on everyone like this.

Alhanelem

05-14-2012, 05:50 AM

Giving access to all weapon skills is not the same as being able to spec every ability in every ability tree of wowIt's almost EXACTLY the same. The only difference between talents and merits is talents are earned as you level up while merits are earned after you level up. You're "forced" to choose between a set of skills and effects which you are not allowed enough points to fully obtain.

Like I said before I'd have no issue with the current merit system if the new WS weren't head and shoulders above what you naturally gain through skillup. If you do not have the Empyrean WS or the merit WS on some weapon types you are a a huge disadvantage.

A Shoha SAM is significantly better than a SAM that still has to rely on Tachi: Gekko.
A BST with Ruinator has a significant advantage over a BST still using Rampage.
A Resolution DRK is going to blow a DRK using Spinning Slash out of the water.

In a game where minor gains are everything, these are huge improvements of a caliber that FFXI rarely achieves.

If you were actually running a real argument for a middle ground position of balance you'd bring up improving some weaponskills that are laughably bad and quite recent like Bora Axe, Cloudsplitter, Blade: Shun, Tachi: Ageha or even the retweaking weaponskills that are old like Ground Strike, Steel Cyclone or Blade: Ku. This is a perspective I can respect- and it's also the area I'd rather see improvements in.

All we are really asking for is for them to be more consistent with how it was done in the past--we're talking over 7 YEARS of freedom, and now they clamp down on everyone like this. What? The merit system has been "limiting" and clamping down on everyone for all of those 7 years. This has only become an issue now because the weapon skills are shinier than most of the merit options available previously. You were forced to choose which attributes to raise, whether to raise HP or MP more, which combat skills to raise, which magic skills to raise, whether to merit enmity up or down or merit crit rate or a couple other random things. I'm not really seeing this "freedom" that's been "clamped down."

RAIST

05-14-2012, 05:58 AM

Alhanelem

05-14-2012, 06:01 AM

The merit system has never forced this kind of restriction where players were completely left out because they weren't fully meritted in one specific category. My BLM NEVER got cut out of a party because it wasn't fully spec'ed out--it still had it's utility.So you're getting cut out of playing BLM because you haven't merited Shattersoul? Huh? How are the weapon skill merits causing this?

(some edits later) Well, If you're complaining about the addition of the SAM WS, that's because that WS is OP, not because the merit system is defective. Going back to Sparthos' post, it wouldn't be that big of a deal if the new WS were better balanced.

I agree with your post in the sense I want to be chosen because of my job's features. This needs to be addressed by balancing the jobs, not by changing the merit system. You're still going to have your problem even if you could unlock every merit WS.

RAIST

05-14-2012, 06:14 AM

Good grief... are you really that dense? No, BLM had it's role for stuns, DOT/Enfeebles, and Magic bursting. Having 2/5 in an element vs 5/5 in an element wasn't as game breaking as not having Freeze2 at all. Now, 2/5 Shoa vs 5/5 Shoha----which SAM is gonna be asked?

It's like the guy that held us up in sky for almost an hour once because we didn't have the right skill chain options he wanted. We finally got tired of it, and our party with a BLU ran off to make our own GD chains for people to burst off of and we got our crap done.. Yes....that's right... when I built up enough TP on BLM, even I occasionally opened up Darkness chains and we got busy while one groups sat around complaining about not having the optimal setup. And all it took was me having WSNM's killed to make it happen. Something ANYONE can have in their arsenal, regardless of what is going on in their merits. That's the freedom we are talking about---having the flexibility to get things done the way we want it, not with one specific cookie cutter role we are forced to play in.

THAT is the problem. People want even MORE specific builds that are more merit WS focused, or it's GTFO. These tight restrictions are just further increasing this rigid mentality.

SE either needs to make jobs more relevant without the new merit WS in their arsenal, or make the merit WS more available to more jobs.

Alhanelem

05-14-2012, 06:26 AM

Good grief... are you really that dense? No, BLM had it's role for stuns, DOT/Enfeebles, and Magic bursting. Having 2/5 in an element vs 5/5 in an element wasn't as game breaking as not having Freeze2 at all. Now, 2/5 Shoa vs 5/5 Shoha----which SAM is gonna be asked?Good Grief, are you really that dense? Re balancing can solve these problems. Unlocking all the WS won't solve these problems. You're not even using a very good example because BLM isn't at all dependent on weapon skills whereas they are central to SAM.

Simple balance adjustments could make the difference between merits less drastic. Have the stat mod start higher and increase less or something. (e.g. start at 60% and go up to 100% instead of 20% to 100%) Unlocking every weapon skill isn't going to make your problem of which job you get picked to go on go away. You speak of skillchain options. I can't even remember the last time I saw people planning to do skillchains. It really has no bearing on this issue at all.

RAIST

05-14-2012, 07:00 AM

Actually , the BLM reference IS relevant to your argument. YOU made the argument that the merit system was already a major issue with job selection prior to them adding the merit WS system. BLM is an easy way to point out the flaw in that argument. It was more important that Freeze2 be unlocked then it was to have capped potency. Even if it was only 1 merit, it was still useful and accepted. Whereas, 1/5 Shoha is considered pointless unless you are using it as a Skillchain opener--and that is not what people want Shoha for, they want it 5/5 for maximum damage output. Either you have it 5/5 for the frontline, or you need to come on a job with a WS that is 5/5 that they will accept.

Pure and simple. If you aren't spec'ed out on a WS now, they don't want you ON THAT JOB. So, you are left with a limited job selection based in large part by your WS merits. This was NOT the case with the merit system in the past. Now, it has become a determining factor, and like I pointed out earlier, there are some cases where you may have two WS setup for one job--if you can't use that WS on another job, then you may have just reduced your acceptable job options.

If you want to maintain your flexibility, then you have to merit soem or all crossover WS like Startdiver and such. In the end, you may not be able to use a WS on a job you would prefer to go on. Merit WS's with restricted job use, and you may freeze yourself out of invites. This was NOT the case with the past merit system and WS selection--it was either you had the WS unlocked, or you didnt' (which, had nothing to do with merits, but quests which you were free to pursue every single one if you had the job leveled and skilled).

{Edit:}

Unlocking every weapon skill isn't going to make your problem of which job you get picked to go on go away.
Actually, yes it would. If you could go 5/5 on WS for at least the primary (possibly even secondary) weapon for each of your jobs, then that potentially rules that out as a limiting factor. Then we are back to Job features, gear, and stats like it has always been.

Alhanelem

05-14-2012, 08:56 AM

Pure and simple. If you aren't spec'ed out on a WS now, they don't want you ON THAT JOB. So, you are left with a limited job selection based in large part by your WS merits. This was NOT the case with the merit system in the past.Again, this means that the weapon skills are too good, not that the merit system is flawed. This didn't happen with the group 2 merits, which added lots of new spells and abilities. If those went around for this long without threads like this coming up, then the merit point system itself is not at fault for the current situation. The weaponskills themselves are.

It's not like there Aren't any other threads complaining that one or more of the weapon skills are too good.
(http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/23243-SE-please-give-a-reason-for-SAM-Tachi-Shoha-power.)

Neisan_Quetz

05-14-2012, 09:00 AM

There's a difference between 'good' 'pretty damn useless' and a thread started by an idiot. Guess what T2 merits, some of the merit WS, and that thread are.

Alhanelem

05-14-2012, 09:17 AM

There's a difference between 'good' 'pretty damn useless' and a thread started by an idiot. Guess what T2 merits, some of the merit WS, and that thread are.
There's a difference between making a reasonable statement and dressing up nonsense to look reasonable. Guess what any other post in this thread (except possibly some of mine), and yours are.

Especially since you're basically wrong on all three counts of yours.

Neisan_Quetz

05-14-2012, 09:22 AM

Okay, let me correct that by stating some of the T2 merits are pretty damn worthless (Aggressive Aim? Martyr isn't very useful, AM2 is pretty worthless, Bio 3 and Blind 2 could be deleted for how useful they are, Ambush is trash, Guardian is trash, Foe Sirvente and Adventurer's Dirge are both bad, Sange should never see more than 1 merit if that, Convergence and Diffusion past 1 are sad, Altruism Focalization Tranquility and Equanimity aren't very good either). Most of the merit WS are good or have uses. That thread was still started by an idiot.

Nala

05-14-2012, 10:15 AM

It's almost EXACTLY the same. The only difference between talents and merits is talents are earned as you level up while merits are earned after you level up. You're "forced" to choose between a set of skills and effects which you are not allowed enough points to fully obtain.

Oy feels like i'm almost talking to P-chan now, Talent points are a natural part of leveling that existed in the game since day one, merits was an addition later on as a way to increase your potential (very slightly) further more where and how you allocate your talent points had a VERY large impact on how your character performs. by comparison with the older merit systems its ok if you werent a Flare II BLM (fire spec mage) rather you're making my head hurt each time you try and reference spec and FFXI in the same damn sentance, merits =/= talent points/talent tree's.

As said before by others very few of the job specific merits are even potent enough to make a difference, or to state in another way some of the job specific merits are lacking in utility to such a degree that they aren't even worth meriting.

Also good for you for never joining a bandwagon job, or perhaps you could just ignore whats in and out and play what you like as i always have, and don't say that you do, you just specifically stated that you consciously avoid playing the in jobs.

Alhanelem

05-14-2012, 12:52 PM

Talent points are a natural part of leveling that existed in the game since day oneYou could easily make Merits a natural part of leveling by having the merit system always active instead of only coming online at level 75. Earn merits whenever oyu want or change the system up a bit and have EXP go towards both level and merit points and bam- Talent system. Point is, they both do pretty much the same thing.

Merits ~= Talents ~= talent trees. It's close enough. I said "almost exactly" not exactly. But lets keep playing with semantics.

Also good for you for never joining a bandwagon job, or perhaps you could just ignore whats in and out and play what you like as i always have, and don't say that you do, you just specifically stated that you consciously avoid playing the in jobs.

I do.

That's because all the jobs I like have never been an "in" job, and most of the ones I don't care for at all are the ones that are. Except maybe SCH at one point but that was pretty short lived. I consider WAR and MNK to be two of the most boring jobs in the game, in particular. WHM I've had a vague interest in but chose not to level it after seeing what it did to some of my friends a few years ago. They nearly quit but then decided to abandon it when the level caps went up and left it at 75. They picked up other jobs (DRG and BLU as mains) and never looked back.

Anapingofness

05-14-2012, 03:27 PM

Yes, obviously everyone would get them even if they didnt want / need them, just because they can....

By your logic, every billionaire d-bag would own every model of automobile, right down to the ford festiva. Not because they want or need one, but because they can. I have yet to see footage of George Clooney's famous Hyundai collection.

People would still only have the weapon skills they want. Even if they could have them all, only people who want them all would get them all. Ever notice how few maat's caps you see? .... "But everyone can get all the jobs to 99... where's the customization? oh noes!"

That's what I've been saying!
I'm glad someone else understands as well!

Nala

05-14-2012, 03:36 PM

You could easily make Merits a natural part of leveling by having the merit system always active instead of only coming online at level 75. Earn merits whenever oyu want or change the system up a bit and have EXP go towards both level and merit points and bam- Talent system. Point is, they both do pretty much the same thing.

Merits ~= Talents ~= talent trees. It's close enough. I said "almost exactly" not exactly. But lets keep playing with semantics.

Perhaps they could but as it stands now merits are 75+ and i do not foresee them ever changing that, to quote you on the matter "no merits before 75" (a tribute to the no police)

Merits are nowhere near as robust compared to the level of customization talents tree's give. The way you allocate your merits do not fundamentally change the way you play your class, perhaps add some extra utility or 1-2 new abilities where as the way you are spec'd via talent tree has a VERY real and VERY significant impact on your ability to perform or even influences what situations you accel better at eg. PvP PvE ect.

The only thing as of now that fits that category is not having the proper merited ws for a DD main which you're taking to end game. Given that merit ws's do not fit either formula that is to say regular merit system concept and all access that every other weapon skill in the game has been afforded. so no talent tree ~= merits, talent tree > merits as all merits do is offer minor boosts to minor aspects of your character or class.

Alhanelem

05-14-2012, 04:54 PM

Merits are nowhere near as robust compared to the level of customization talents tree's give. this is largely because they were tacked on later rather than always being a part of the game's advancement and SE was ultra-conservative in terms of creating worthwhile effects
The way you allocate your merits do not fundamentally change the way you play your class,except for... drumroll please... weapon skills, apparently, hence this thread. of course, any feature that fundamentally changes anything is immediately fired upon by the resistant-to-change group of players who don't want the changes at all, and the most entitled players who want more than what is given.

So, we can apparently either happily live with limits on shitty merits that don't do much, or we fight over how problematic the limits when the merits are actually useful. neither situation is particularly good. -.-

Honestly, this whole thread is likely pointless as you can be pretty sure SE is never going to remove the limits entirely. The odds of even increasing the limit (something that I am okay with) are probably pretty low too.

Ever notice how few maat's caps you see?Honestly, I'm quite sure most of the people who have one aren't wearing it. It's not exactly an achievement to reach level 66 on every job.that isn't even a third of the EXP to cap all jobs.

Perhaps they could but as it stands now merits are 75+ and i do not foresee them ever changing that, to quote you on the matter "no merits before 75" (a tribute to the no police)the thing is, all the stat/skill merits work below level 75, you simply have to reach that level first. If they work below 75 you should be able to earn them below 75, when you think about it.

Nala

05-14-2012, 06:21 PM

Why is it automatically entitlement when we use the forum to wait for it... request changes be made? seriously who died and made you the no police, it's all i ever see with you, first response post to almost every topic with an immediate no.

Your argument is that we do specialize, i disagree, untill they added merited weapon skills which is a formula breaker in a game that has never had high impact "specialization" this should have never happened, people are ok with sub par merits not being addressed because they are sub par, just look at the recent sange thread, but when they add something actually useful and then do something retarded like this people do care. hmm for that matter people also care when they are wasting time updating useless merits too.

hiko

05-14-2012, 07:10 PM

Again, this means that the weapon skills are too good, not that the merit system is flawed. This didn't happen with the group 2 merits, which added lots of new spells and abilities. If those went around for this long without threads like this coming up, then the merit point system itself is not at fault for the current situation. The weaponskills themselves are.

It's not like there Aren't any other threads complaining that one or more of the weapon skills are too good.
(http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/23243-SE-please-give-a-reason-for-SAM-Tachi-Shoha-power.)

this didn't happen with g2merit because g2 are PER JOB LIMITED, not OVERALL LIMITED!
what do you think hapened if G2 was 15merit limit total?

some G2 merits have some utility even if not 5/5,
WS don't

Kysaiana

05-14-2012, 08:40 PM

this didn't happen with g2merit because g2 are PER JOB LIMITED, not OVERALL LIMITED!
what do you think hapened if G2 was 15merit limit total?

some G2 merits have some utility even if not 5/5,
WS don't

I made this exact same point earlier and he ignored it, so don't hold your breath.

How many people are asking to be able to cap every single WS in the category? It would certainly be nice if you could but I don't see SE every doing that, and I personally only want the cap to be raised to a more reasonable number. Three is just too limited especially when the WS are useless if not 5/5.

Alhanelem

05-14-2012, 11:04 PM

Three is just too limited especially when the WS are useless if not 5/5. care to scientifically/mathematically prove that all merit WS are inferior to the previous best option with 4/5? It has been claimed that certain WS are dramatically better than the previous best option. If that were truly the case, even losing a 20% modifier shouldn't be enough to make it inferior. Consider staff (lol). Even 1/5 shattersoul superior to retribution, the previous best staff WS.

I didn't ignore the point, I don't agree with it.

this didn't happen with g2merit because g2 are PER JOB LIMITED, not OVERALL LIMITED!Even within each job, you can't max everything. So the same entitled people that want everything now should have been complaining back then.

I personally only want the cap to be raised to a more reasonable number.Why are you posting then? I've already posted at least half a dozen times in this thread and once in another that i'm cool with a limit increase? I only don't want to see the limit removed entirely.

Spiritreaver

05-15-2012, 12:39 AM

care to scientifically/mathematically prove that all merit WS are inferior to the previous best option with 4/5? It has been claimed that certain WS are dramatically better than the previous best option. If that were truly the case, even losing a 20% modifier shouldn't be enough to make it inferior. Consider staff (lol). Even 1/5 shattersoul superior to retribution, the previous best staff WS.

I didn't ignore the point, I don't agree with it.

Even within each job, you can't max everything. So the same entitled people that want everything now should have been complaining back then.

Why are you posting then? I've already posted at least half a dozen times in this thread and once in another that i'm cool with a limit increase? I only don't want to see the limit removed entirely.

Why are you still posting in this thread? Aside from continuing to prolong an argument between yourself and practically everyone else with an opinion on this issue that is?

*Everyone, even you, agrees that 3 of the Merit WSs @ 5/5 is too limiting.

*We all know SE will not open up the whole categoriy to be maxed, and honestly aside from a few posters saying that they'd be ok with that even though they know it won't happen, i'm not seeing a ton of ppl asking for that.

*General consensus is that opening up the category from 3 to 5 WSs @ 5/5 is the way to go.

That sum the tone of the thread up? I mean you keep brandishing the 'specialization' idea about like a shield, but that's just dumb imo and amounts to you white-knighting for yet another of SE's poorly thought out and even more poorly implemented ideas. But that is the thread in a nutshell right?

So again, why are you still posting?

Dohati

05-15-2012, 12:43 AM

Disagree, and not liked. You should have to specialize, that's what merits were originally about.

You can already merit them all if you don't mind them not being as good.

but most of them are mediocre at best... i might agree with you if they were all super powerful

FrankReynolds

05-15-2012, 06:08 AM

@ Alhanelem: Give me half of your paycheck.

This will not be considered gimping your income.

I will be giving you the opportunity to choose which bills that you want to enhance each month.

That's the kind of guy I am. Always here to help.

Seriously though... your still going on arguing with people about how "Everyone would have all the WS maxed" when no one in this thread has all the jobs to 99 to use them all?

Alhanelem

05-15-2012, 07:02 AM

*We all know SE will not open up the whole categoriy to be maxed, and honestly aside from a few posters saying that they'd be ok with that even though they know it won't happen, i'm not seeing a ton of ppl asking for that.If we all know this, why are people demanding it (or somewhat more accurately, why are people implying they want it to be this way if not outright demanding it)? It's just as futile as me trying to convince any of you of anything.

Instead, simply push the more realistic possibility that most of us here already agree with and support, and then maybe sometime in the future you might be able to ask for a bit more beyond that.

Spiritreaver

05-15-2012, 01:58 PM

If we all know this, why are people demanding it (or somewhat more accurately, why are people implying they want it to be this way if not outright demanding it)? It's just as futile as me trying to convince any of you of anything.

Instead, simply push the more realistic possibility that most of us here already agree with and support, and then maybe sometime in the future you might be able to ask for a bit more beyond that.

First off, you didn't answer the question. It was pretty straight-forward: why are you still posting in this thread?

Moving on from that, what does it matter if what the vast majority of ppl weighing in on this want is futile or not? It doesn't incidentally, as if no one speaks up for a change, its highly unlikely that SE will even consider changing anything. Shoot, even IF ppl speak up more often than not the current dev team seems to ignore glaring issues as a rule. Asking for the merit WS category to be opened up in ANY fashion is a good thing. Just because the request wasn't delivered in a manner you personally approve of does not invalidate it in any way/shape/form.

Dealing with SE bullheadedness has always felt like haggling to me. You have to shoot very high in your initial pitch. Then you dicker around with them 'til a somewhat tolerable medium is found.

Should the whole category be completely opened up so everyone and their sister can merit each and every WS to 5/5? Personally i don't give a damn, at 1 million limit points a pop i say if someone wants to do that, good on them. Now i along with everyone else knows this isn't gonna happen. Ever. But if a few ppl clamor for that end along with everyone else of the mind that at least a bump from 3 -> 5ish WSs @5/5? So much the better imo. SE will eventually see that some cap raise is in order.

Its not like they haven't changed merit caps before is it?

Another thread like this one popped up a little ways back(not the one that popped up close to this one i think, but may be wrong). In it a poster relayed the gist of a conversation going on in the JP forum that was in the same vein; JP players were asking for a raise in the merit WS category cap as well. Long story short, SE gave some ridiculous reason for keeping the cap at 15 total merits-amounted to 'If we give you more, you'll just ask for more in turn'.

One of the most asinine responses i've ever seen a service provider give a customer. But totally par for the course in regards to how the current dev team operates.

I bring it up to illustrate the mindset of what we customers(and we ARE customers first and foremost here. We are customers and we are paying a monthly fee for a service that SE provides....shoddily granted, but...) are going up against with SE here.

You can take the role of the long-suffering customer and happily accept w/e type of service SE deigns give you-that's your right. But likewise, there are going to be other(many others in this case)that are going to be dissatisfied with the way SE has been running business of late. And its just shoddy and self-centered behavior on your part shouting down the legitimate requests of fellow customers because they are asking for too much, in your opinion.

I could see your stance as more reasonable if this was just some frivolous request on the part of the playerbase. But that really isn't the case. I've slammed ideas here on the official forums and elsewhere that were just stupid, so i get that feeling, i do. But when as many ppl think there is a problem with something-as IS the case here-as do here, its time to pack it in buddy. SE is gonna do what SE is gonna do in the end.

Anyways, i'm done. Next time just answer the question Alhanelem....

FrankReynolds

05-16-2012, 12:34 AM

The answer is that he only plays 3 jobs and he thinks that should be plenty for everyone else. There for it must be law.

I'm pretty sure he's afraid that some guy is gonna come along and PWN him on PUP and be like "Hah! I wrecked you, and this is only my 9th favorite job!".

So he figures that if people can't get good stuff for their (9th favorite PUP) because they used all the merits on sam or war or monk etc. then he will always be a big fish in a small pond.

Meyi

05-16-2012, 01:12 AM

...then he will always be a big fish in a small pond.

Ahahah. I love you. <3

Alhanelem

05-16-2012, 01:41 AM

The answer is that he only plays 3 jobs and he thinks that should be plenty for everyone else. wrong. 5 actually. So yes, the limit does affect me. I'm just not bothered by it. DRK SMN SCH DNC PUP. Was leveling ranger before I found some other games that were taking up too much of my time to play as much as I was before. And while I might be showing PUP over there<----- I play all of them.

First off, you didn't answer the question. It was pretty straight-forward: why are you still posting in this thread?well, you didn't answer my question either, and instead posted a big long essay about why you think I'm wrong about whatever stuff. Apparently, you're not ready to ignore list me yet. :D

Spiritreaver

05-16-2012, 02:27 AM

wrong. 5 actually. So yes, the limit does affect me. I'm just not bothered by it. DRK SMN SCH DNC PUP. Was leveling ranger before I found some other games that were taking up too much of my time to play as much as I was before. And while I might be showing PUP over there<----- I play all of them.

well, you didn't answer my question either, and instead posted a big long essay about why you think I'm wrong about whatever stuff. Apparently, you're not ready to ignore list me yet. :D

Puerile.

If you step down off of whatever you want to call what you are propping yourself on, you'll see that my "big, long essay" was my answer to you.

If we all know this, why are people demanding it (or somewhat more accurately, why are people implying they want it to be this way if not outright demanding it)?

Your's was a short question as well. But required a "big, long essay" for me to reply fully.

You however couldn't do me the courtesy of even a "'cause i wants to dawg! lawl!!" No worries tho Alhanelem, i relieve you of having to answer. You like to stir the pot, but when someone comes along and asks about the ingredients you are putting in, you want to toss the whole thing off. Its what i've come to to expect of you after all.

And no, i won't be putting you on the ignore list. I'm an adult and i like to see all expressed views, especially those contrary to mine. Helps me make informed decisions and readily develop answers(when necessary) on my own so i don't have to do things like parrot trite memes(not that you threw out such. just saying) or evade direct questions.

RAIST

05-16-2012, 02:29 AM

wrong. 5 actually. So yes, the limit does affect me. I'm just not bothered by it. DRK SMN SCH DNC PUP.

That actually goes a long way towards explaining why you are not grasping how restrictive the system can be, even if they let us go to 25 merits instead of 15. With your listed job preferences, you are far less likely to run into the discrimination issue over WS availability on the jobs you like to play, as you stand a far better chance of having the desired WS meritted 5/5 (or at least 4/5, where they finally may catch up to or exceed the previous best WS for that job) on the jobs you like to play.

So, in a way, FrankReynolds was actually not far off on his assumption in the sense that you have a small pool of jobs that insulates you from being dramatically affected by the restrictions.

Alhanelem

05-16-2012, 03:57 AM

Stuff

Are you purposely coming back here just so you validate your accusations of me being a troll? If my presence here is bothering you this much, why haven't you blocked me yet?

That actually goes a long way towards explaining why you are not grasping how restrictive the system can beI Strongly disagree, because you don't need all 14 weapon skills to have one that's useable on every job. The system is supposed to be restrictive. I've already agreed that it is TOO restrictive, so why are you still picking me apart?

Finuve

05-16-2012, 03:59 AM

All I play is three jobs (on the one character) and 3 WSs still means I'm screwed

for DRK BST and SAM I need Shoha, Ruinator, Entropy, and Resolution

Drakhon

05-16-2012, 04:00 AM

Has anyone ever bothered to look up Alhanelem's character Tahngarthor? With only 5/20 jobs at 99 and the rest under 55 with one still level 1 he clearly is the type of player that only wants to put effort into specific jobs that he plays. So the point of meriting more WS is pointless to him because he can't use them. Specializing is what this guy is all about, period. Even his crafting is focused solely on cooking, probably the one craft where you don't need sub crafts often. he is rank 10 in Bastok and that's it, why? cause that's all he wants. So arguing with him about expanding your character is pointless because he is unable to process it.

Me, on the other hand, my goal is to get everything done as best as possible. I have all jobs at 99 and was working on getting them all to 75 pre-Aby. Why? Not because I intended on playing every job but because it was a goal offered in the game. When I got to 75 on one job I would set it aside and work on the next. When I got to rank 10 in Sandy, I went on to Bastok. When I got 60 on cooking I went onto Smithing and then decided to take Leathercraft to 100 simply because the crafting material mostly came from mobs, so it was cheaper and easier. I have capped Dagger, Hand-Hand and Axe ws because at this moment I mostly play Thf, Mnk (at the time I merited the ws) and BST for Dynamis. Drg was my first job choice but I have Drakesbane and that was good enough for me at the time. I also play Blu a lot but saw no purpose in getting that WS at the time.

Am I the absolute best I can be at each job? Heck no. I love playing blu but still can't grasp the concept of a FC Party. I know its about doing max damage to a group of mobs to kill them with one or two attacks, but is it all about the gear you use or the atma? I still need RR atma and now I wish I had gotten it when Aby first came out instead of leveling my jobs slowly, but oh well. Has not having RR hampered me? A bit yeah, but so has solo playing, and yet I've still got a lot done in the game. I just don't have all the coolest toys, but since I've got a lot of the ingame missions and goals done, guess I don't really need those cool toys to have fun.

I would like to be able to get all 15 WS just because their available. I don't care about specializing I just like to accomplish goals, that's the whole point of this game in my opinion. Check them off the list.

Now, talking about specializing, this game ISN'T designed for people to specialize in one or two jobs. How do I mean? Look at all the past end game stuff and battles. What were the popular jobs back in CoP? ToA? Hell, look at LB10, everyone wanted MNK and PLD and if you didn't have those, you were out of luck. People with other jobs wanted MNK and PLD to do the fight for them while they sat back in safety. Was it so hard to level MNK to do the fight? I remember doing the S.Ascension battle, everyone wanted SMN. I leveled SMN from 20-75 just for that battle and only finally soloed it with 99 SMN cause I was tiered of pts going in half-cocked thinking it was a cake walk. And despite Aby being open to all jobs what were the popular ones for that?

Specializing in a single job is pointless because when ever SE reveals something new that requires a different job, people will only want those jobs and if the player doesn't have it, will raise heck about it because now they have to level a new job. What's going to be the job of choice when Dungeon Crawl comes out? What ever it is you can bet that the specialists will raise heck if they don't have that job leveled.

So I say level everything to 99 so you have the options available and open up all the WS so you have those available when you need them. Putting limitations on things doesn't force players to "specialize" it forces players to STOP. Stop growing, stop experiencing new battles and adventures, stop discovering that maybe they'll enjoy playing a new job because the WS is more fun. If you don't want to get 5 WS because you're afraid you won't be SPECIALized anymore, then don't. Stop at 3. If you want 5 you should have the option of getting it. It doesn't hurt the game after all.

SE puts limits not force players to specialize but because their own imagination is limited. They expanded the limits of the game with Aby and got in crap for that.

Alhanelem

05-16-2012, 04:01 AM

All I play is three jobs (on the one character) and 3 WSs still means I'm screwed

for DRK BST and SAM I need Shoha, Ruinator, Entropy, and Resolution
No, you don't need all four of them. The complaint in this thread is that you can't get enough weapon skills to have -one- for each job.

Has anyone ever bothered to look up Alhanelem's character Tahngarthor? With only 5/20 jobs at 99 and the rest under 55 with one still level 1 he clearly is the type of player that only wants to put effort into specific jobs that he plays.There is absolutely -nothing- wrong with this. It's a personal choice. That doesn't invalidate my opinions. I've been playing this game since soon after it came out. Don't you DARE try to paint me as a noob. I'm not as stupid as you apparently think I look- My opinion isn't purely based on my personal experiences.

Why WOULD I put effort into a job I don't want to play? I don't want to play it, therefore I'm not going to. Part of the fun is finding new and unusual ways of doing things. I've been to virtually every HNM in existence on one or more of those 5 jobs. It takes enough time to fully gear 5 jobs, much less 20, so believe me, it's more than enough to keep me busy. You're nothing but an elitist or a jerk if you look down on people for not having all 20 jobs leveled.

Putting limitations on things doesn't force players to "specialize" it forces players to STOP.Bullshiat. You're still going to STOP eventually. It might take a little longer. There's still a finish line even without the limits. The difference is when everyone has hit that finish line, with the limits each character is a little different. Without those limits, every character is exactly the same.

Drakhon

05-16-2012, 04:30 AM

I never said anything bad about how you play. I simply stated a fact on how you play and that that's how you play so there's no point in trying to explain another way of playing the game to you. As for me being an elitist, that's not much of an argument you're giving to call me that? I never said how I play the game is how it's supposed to be played by everyone, I just did a comparison on how I play it differently. I didn't state that how I play is my opinion on how the game is to be played but I didn't say that other players should be forced to play it that way, which is what you are saying when you state that players should be forced by SE to specialize to only a few jobs.

This thread is about opening up more options to players who do level more jobs. Since you're not interested in playing more jobs then the argument does not affect you because you are happy with what you have. Good for you. You're happy with what you have. Others, however, aren't.

So how does giving other players more options in anyway negatively affect you as a player and your playing experience? And if it doesn't, then where's the problem with having 5/5 WS to merit?

if you're mad at what I said above then I think you're mad at what I pointed out not in the tone of how I said it, which is impossible to tell on here because it is written and not spoken. I can't be held responsible for how you look at life and those around you.

You enjoy living in your one bedroom apartment (little box - limits) while other people want a house (larger box - options) thus giving them the freedom to move and grow. There's nothing wrong with your little box, maybe you have it decorated the way you like it, I don't know. I don't care. In comparison people living in a big house might have empty rooms that need filling and they want the nice furniture and electronics to fill it. Should they be denied those accessories simply because you don't want them? And when that house is full and the players are able to afford a bigger house with more room shouldn't they be given the option of upgrading? I'm not being derogatory or being an "elitist" as you called me before. I am stating a fact using an apt image. Want another one? Some of these players are still in high school, some have graduated and some have gone on to College or University. Should everyone be limited to just high school? Read what you want in that and feel free to howl and rage at an uncaring world.

Spiritreaver

05-16-2012, 04:41 AM

Are you purposely coming back here just so you validate your accusations of me being a troll? If my presence here is bothering you this much, why haven't you blocked me yet?

Until this sentence, i never once called you a troll. As to validating that sentiment however, you're doing a wonderful job of that all on your own. And again if you had bothered to read my post(i know actually reading on a text based internet forum....), your question was answered.

All i did was ask you a question that you've neglected to answer three times so far. Hmm...

No, you don't need all four of them. The complaint in this thread is that you can't get enough weapon skills to have -one- for each job.

There is absolutely -nothing- wrong with this. It's a personal choice. That doesn't invalidate my opinions. I've been playing this game since soon after it came out. Don't you DARE try to paint me as a noob. I'm not as stupid as you apparently think I look- My opinion isn't purely based on my personal experiences.

Why WOULD I put effort into a job I don't want to play? I don't want to play it, therefore I'm not going to. Part of the fun is finding new and unusual ways of doing things. I've been to virtually every HNM in existence on one or more of those 5 jobs. It takes enough time to fully gear 5 jobs, much less 20, so believe me, it's more than enough to keep me busy. You're nothing but an elitist or a jerk if you look down on people for not having all 20 jobs leveled.

Bullshiat. You're still going to STOP eventually. It might take a little longer. There's still a finish line even without the limits. The difference is when everyone has hit that finish line, with the limits each character is a little different. Without those limits, every character is exactly the same.

Classy. The way you play is fine, but someone else who goes the opposite route is a jerk? Very classy indeed.

@the bold-Though its just been rightly said you fail to grasp the core issue, do you not see how obtuse this statement makes you seem? Sorry that is another of those pesky direct questions you hate i know. But going by that line of reasoning, there is really no point in doing ANYTHING ingame is there?

Which i guess answers my initial question as to why you are pissing about in this thread ad nauseam in a round-about way, doesn't it?

@Finuve and Drakhon-Good points all around.

Alhanelem

05-16-2012, 04:49 AM

All i did was ask you a question that you've neglected to answer three times so far. Hmm...Why am I posting? I've already answered that question. I'm posting because I have an opinion on a topic. Hmm....

Why is anyone posting? Because they have something to say. Isn't it obvious? Why should I answer a question like that, which you should already know the answer to?

Classy. The way you play is fine, but someone else who goes the opposite route is a jerk? Very classy indeed.It is classy, isn't it? The way you bait me back with retorts and insults of your own... sounds a lot like... a troll. "Why are you still posting?" is a troll question. It is a question with no content yet allows you to force a response out of others- the very definition of trolling. Since you don't seem to have anything worthwhile to contribute, I'll just ignore you from here on out. As was said earlier, if you ignore a troll, they'll disappear. If you really wanted someone to stop posting, you'd stop asking them questions.

then where's the problem with having 5/5 WS to merit?I already said about 20 times in this thread that I'm already cool with a limit increase. I am affected by the limit as you are and I think it can be increased to a level that still retians a decision making aspect while not constraining the player to only improving 2-3 jobs out of 20.

Anapingofness

05-16-2012, 04:58 AM

Why WOULD I put effort into a job I don't want to play? I don't want to play it, therefore I'm not going to.

Your statement validates my point as well as the points of many other people on this thread.
Why would you play a job you don't want to? On that note, why would you merit a WS you don't want to? The answer is, you wouldn't and you won't. That's my point.

Uncapping all of the merit weapon skills will not change anything. People will choose which jobs they want to level and people will choose which weapon skills they want to merit.

Alhanelem

05-16-2012, 05:04 AM

Your statement validates my point as well as the points of many other people on this thread.that statement doesn't validate anything.

1 WS != one job. WS are tied to weapons, and you can use different weapons on each job. I can still learn more WS and be affected by a point limit with even just 2 jobs.

Uncapping all of the merit weapon skills will not change anything. People will choose which jobs they want to level and people will choose which weapon skills they want to merit. It does change something. It removes the cieling on how much better a player with all jobs can be than one that doesn't have them, and effectively forces other people to level more jobs to be able to compete. In other words, it increases the level of obligation a player will feel to level more jobs even if they don't enjoy them. It's bad enough the way it is now, it doesn't need to be made worse by uncapping merits. Making a limit that was set too low brought to a more reasonable number I can get behind. I cannot get behind lifting the limit entirely. Seems like I'll be saying this til I'm blue in the face. Maybe its time you gave up on trying to change my views. Similarly, i ought to take my own advice. An "agree to disagree" is in order here?

Asymptotic

05-16-2012, 05:15 AM

5 capped weapon skills would be reasonable and sufficient.

RAIST

05-16-2012, 06:05 AM

I Strongly disagree, because you don't need all 14 weapon skills to have one that's useable on every job. The system is supposed to be restrictive. I've already agreed that it is TOO restrictive, so why are you still picking me apart?

This and additional statements just further prove how little grasp you have with what the problem is.

It is not about unlocking every WS for every job. It is about unlocking the primary, and EXPECTED WS for each job THAT YOU PREFER TO PLAY. Lets look at your list, and what merit WS (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Martial_Mastery)are available to them:

PUP - Shijin spiral
DNC - Extenterator
DRK - Requiescat, Resolution, Ruinator, Upheaval, Entropy
SCH/SMN - Realmrazor, Shattersoul

At most, you could unlock 9 WS, but are you REALLY going to use all 9?

NO.

What are people going to WANT YOU TO USE ON THAT JOB. What WS are they going to want you to use if you are invited to an event, and what is going to cause them to not want you on that job if you don't have it, or someone has it meritted higher?

Well, DNC and PUP are obvious, and SCH/SMN are going to have far more important roles assigned than trying to spam a club or staff WS out side of the off chance you may need the utility of the WS (reduce magic defense, or opening a chain, in which case the damage output of the WS is not that important). So that essentially assigns 2 WS needed 5/5 for two jobs, and takes two jobs out of your list as needing to have them 5/5 for an event. Sure, you may still want them for farting around with friends, solo play, farming, etc., but we are talking about serious events where people try to get the optimum jobs and builds in the group. That leaves DRK. DRK has a long list of weapons it CAN use, but only a few that it routinely uses, so naturally you would only spend the time/merits on the most important ones, right?

Lets look at DRK's top ranked Weapons to narrow down the possibilities, shall we?

Scythe (A+), GS (A-), and GA, Axe, and Sword are B-. Now, in all seriousness, which ones are you going to meritt for a third WS? You don't have any other job that has an unlocked WS that is in demand, it is only DRK. So....you pick the one most sought after for DRK, and you are good to go in the bulk of situations.

Now, if you get to do 5 WS to 5/5, then you have more flexibility. DNC and PUP have no more WS to unlock, your only options are DRK, SCH, SMN. You already have the PRIMARY WS SOUGHT AFTER UNLOCKED FOR THE 3 JOBS THAT YOU WOULD BE TYPICALLY WS'ING WITH IN EVENTS. So, the extra 10 points would be gravy for you to play with.

So, in short, at 15 merits as it is now, you already have the option of going 5/5 on the IMPORTANT ws for the 3 jobs where it matters, or you could go 4/5 on one or more them and use the extra points for unlocking other WS to play with on DRK, SCH, and/or SMN. But most importantly, you can ALREADY unlock and rasie to a decent level what the playerbase has declared to be required/expected of you if you are on one of your preferred jobs----THEREFORE, you really don't have a dog in this fight outside the realm of wanting some extra flexibility for sidegrade WS use.

Now, compare and contrast that to someone that doesn't prefer to play a mage class. We're talking jobs like WAR, SAM, NIN, MNK, and possibly another meleeing job besides DRG/PUP (as H2H and PA would crossover on them, respectively) Or even including DRG or PUP and a 6th job as well. There is NO WAY you can cover the EXPECTED/REQUIRED WS (as declared by the playerbase) on EACH of these jobs with just 15 points--3 can be eaten up by just TWO jobs. You might not even be able to do it with 25 points to spend. 25 would cover those first 4 jobs--to cover more jobs, they would have to be crossovers like PUP and DRG. If your 5th or 6th job is DRK, or something needing dagger or sword, you're out of luck.

At a MINIMUM it should be 30 points to cover the current state of the playerbase, and even then it may not cut it if people keep spec'ing out more jobs.

Again, the issue is NOT unlocking every WS for every job---it is about having the ability to unlock and spec out the WS you are expected to have to play the jobs you prefer to play in important events. If someone has the WS on your preferred job and it is at a higher level, you may very well be getting the boot. THAT is what is at issue here, meeting the demands of the playerbase to avoid being left on the sidelines so you can actually progress through the game's content.

Alhanelem

05-16-2012, 06:26 AM

Now, if you get to do 5 WS to 5/5, then you have more flexibilityTotally agree, that's why i've supported it 20 other times in this thread.

Rest of it, agreeing to disagree.

Meyi

05-16-2012, 06:27 AM

There is absolutely -nothing- wrong with this. It's a personal choice. That doesn't invalidate my opinions. I've been playing this game since soon after it came out. Don't you DARE try to paint me as a noob. I'm not as stupid as you apparently think I look- My opinion isn't purely based on my personal experiences.

I know plenty of noobs who started playing with NA's release. Time does not equate skill; purposeful practice builds skill. Regardless, the problem with you is not your opinion but your refusal to be open to others' opinions. For example, I am a specialist as well; I specialize in BLM and SMN. For me, none of these merits matter because I won't be using more than one weapon skill type. However, that said, I can be open to other peoples' concerns. They want their jobs to be maxed out, and as someone who does like the idea of maxing a character's potential out, I agree and approve of their suggestion.

I would be angry if Square Enix said I had to pick two magian staves to maximize. Because I wouldn't want to be treated that way in something that is important to my job, I wouldn't want anyone else to be hindered.

Why WOULD I put effort into a job I don't want to play? I don't want to play it, therefore I'm not going to. Part of the fun is finding new and unusual ways of doing things. I've been to virtually every HNM in existence on one or more of those 5 jobs. It takes enough time to fully gear 5 jobs, much less 20, so believe me, it's more than enough to keep me busy. You're nothing but an elitist or a jerk if you look down on people for not having all 20 jobs leveled.

Sometimes we have to do things in the game we don't want to in order to make what we want to do more enjoyable and more accessible. I never wanted to do Dynamis, but I wanted the gear that dropped from it, so I therefore put up with 8 hours a week doing Dynamis. same with a lot of subjobs, because I knew I would use them in the future.

Bullshiat. You're still going to STOP eventually. It might take a little longer. There's still a finish line even without the limits. The difference is when everyone has hit that finish line, with the limits each character is a little different. Without those limits, every character is exactly the same.

No. With the limits, people have to choose "the best/most common/most expected" weapon skills to have. Without limits, people can get as many of the weapon skills as they want, in the order they want, and feel happy having them. Instead of the answer being, "I don't have X weaponskill because I needed Y for Z job", it can be, "I didn't want to bother getting X weaponskill, so I didn't."

I'm going to help you out buddy, because it seems you're not getting the message here; your constant 'no' response is really pissing people off. They're fed up with it, and you're coming off as an unwanted fool. If I were you I would consider agreeing to disagree and backing out of the conversation.

Alhanelem

05-16-2012, 08:05 AM

I know plenty of noobs who started playing with NA's release. Time does not equate skill; purposeful practice builds skill.number of jobs leveled does not equal skill either.

Regardless, the problem with you is not your opinion but your refusal to be open to others' opinions. you seem to be refusing to be open to other's opinions as well.

Sometimes we have to do things in the game we don't want to in order to make what we want to do more enjoyable and more accessible.When you do things you don't want to do, you're not playing a game. You're working. I don't need to level WAR or SAM to make my experience more enjoyable.

If I were you I would consider agreeing to disagree and backing out of the conversation. I've already done that, so why did you write this post and troll me back into it?

I'm going to help you out buddy, because it seems you're not getting the message here; your constant 'no' response is really pissing people off. I've already agreed with the idea of a limit increase countless times in this thread. Where are you getting this idea that i'm giving a constant "no" response? Several of you seem to really enjoy trolling me. Otherwise you would have noticed my agreement, and the other thread on this topic which I "liked" and supported. Instead, you and others continue to pick a fight with me. We're fussing over details, when the actual issue has already been settled.

saevel

05-16-2012, 08:17 AM

With the limits, people have to choose "the best/most common/most expected" weapon skills to have.

Pretty much this. I have 5/5 Res and 5/5 Shoha, I have to demerit Req now to get 5/5 SD. I would love to have Ruin / Upheaval / Req / Exten / Apex / Entropy to play with and be more well rounded but due to the need for maximum damage my three choices are forced.

Alhanelem

05-16-2012, 08:23 AM

Pretty much this. I have 5/5 Res and 5/5 Shoha, I have to demerit Req now to get 5/5 SD. I would love to have Ruin / Upheaval / Req / Exten / Apex / Entropy to play with and be more well rounded but due to the need for maximum damage my three choices are forced.
Then those three weaponskills should be toned down so that you could more freely choose between them. Every one of the new weapon skills should be viable for someone wanting "maximum damage." The fact that you can't pick a different one and still be "good" is what's concerning to me. I would like to see the balance improved.

I understand the issue you face- but to me, it's a balance issue more than a merit points issue.

RAIST

05-16-2012, 08:27 AM

Now, if you get to do 5 WS to 5/5, then you have more flexibility
Totally agree, that's why i've supported it 20 other times in this thread.

Rest of it, agreeing to disagree.

And still... you miss the boat.

Being able to go 5/5 on 5 WS gives YOU specifically more flexibility becasue YOU typically will only require 3 WS to be 5/5 (in the scope of what others expect of your jobs at an event). For those that have a longer list solely because they have a different list, 15 is not enough, and even 25 may not be enough.

The point is, the system should offer enough flexibility to cover the host of jobs the playerbase has in demand. When setups are routinely calling for 6+ specific jobs to be present to do WS in order to run the event efficiently, the system should allow enough flexibility for you to meet the demands of those jobs for each player. Not even raising it to 25 points will cut it so long as the content/playerbase is demanding more flexibility.

Alhanelem

05-16-2012, 08:36 AM

And still... you miss the boat.And yet, you're still trolling me...

Being able to go 5/5 on 5 WS gives YOU specifically more flexibility becasue YOU typically will only require 3 WS to beWhat are you talking about? I ALREADY AGREED THAT THERE SHOULD BE AN INCREASE IN THE WEAPON SKILL POINT LIMIT. This is not about ME. You have to have misread something somewhere.

I ALREADY AGREED THAT THERE SHOULD BE AN INCREASE IN THE WEAPON SKILL POINT LIMIT.

I ALREADY AGREED THAT THERE SHOULD BE AN INCREASE IN THE WEAPON SKILL POINT LIMIT.

WHY ARE YOU STILL ATTACKING ME WHEN I'M AGREEING WITH YOU? How many more times do I have to repeat it before you stop?

RAIST

05-16-2012, 08:39 AM

And yet, you're still trolling me...

What are you talking about? I ALREADY AGREED THAT THERE SHOULD BE AN INCREASE IN THE WEAPON SKILL POINT LIMIT. This is not about ME.

I ALREADY AGREED THAT THERE SHOULD BE AN INCREASE IN THE WEAPON SKILL POINT LIMIT.

I ALREADY AGREED THAT THERE SHOULD BE AN INCREASE IN THE WEAPON SKILL POINT LIMIT.

WHY ARE YOU STILL ATTACKING ME WHEN I'M AGREEING WITH YOU?

Because you aren't agreeing with the issue at hand, and have been perpetuating strawman arguments.

Alhanelem

05-16-2012, 08:45 AM

Because you aren't agreeing with the issue at hand, and have been perpetuating strawman arguments. I have not made any "strawman" arugments. And the fact that you're picking a fight with me when I've already agreed with the thread suggestion for about the last 6 pages tells me that's what you're here for.

Why should it even matter to you WHY I agree with you, as long as I do?

Just stop. There's no point in this. I've already supported the suggestion, I'm not going to convince you of anything else, you're not going to convince me of anything else, just agree to disagree and we can all have a much more pleasant forum experience.

See you later, and have a wonderful evening.

RAIST

05-16-2012, 08:58 AM

I have not made any "strawman" arugments. And the fact that you're picking a fight with me when I've already agreed with the thread suggestion for about the last 6 pages tells me that's what you're here for.

Why should it even matter to you WHY I agree with you, as long as I do?

Just stop. There's no point in this. I've already supported the suggestion, I'm not going to convince you of anything else, you're not going to convince me of anything else, just agree to disagree and we can all have a much more pleasant forum experience.

See you later, and have a wonderful evening.

You've droned on and on about specialization, and the importance of not having everyone be just like anyone else. That is NOT what this is about. It's about keeping consistent with the way the merit system has always worked.

Our "specialization," as you are so fond of going back to, has always been limited mostly within the scope of each individual job. WS could have simply followed the same format and been limited in the scope of the job and not the character as a whole. What they have done with this seemingly arbitrary global cap is undermine the entire system buy the simple fact that it forces you to pick (for many) 3 jobs to use, in some cases only two. By your own admission, it forces people to do something they have never done or otherwise would not do--like level another job they never intended, or neglect a job they have spent years building up--simply because of what the playerbase is now demanding in order to be able to participate in content.

If they wanted to place a restriction on the system, it perhaps would have been better to restrict it on a per job basis and not the global cap like they have done. If someone has taken the time to level a job, cap it's skills, obtain the best gear they can reasonably obtain---they should NOT be penalized from unlocking a WS on say THF or DNC because they leveled and unlocked for WAR, SAM, and DRK first. They could have capped it at 5 or 10 points per JOB...but 15 points, 25 points....whatever it may be in the end--as long as it is a global cap, it is simply out of synch to how everything has worked for the past 7 years or so since they first introduced the merit system.

THAT is the problem. It should not be a hard and GLOBAL cap like this. There are far better ways to implement this.

Meyi

05-16-2012, 09:02 AM

number of jobs leveled does not equal skill either.

It's true. But I never once said that job number equates skill. I said purposeful practice leads to skill. Meaning, the more a person practices something and uses each trial of practice to educate themselves on the pros and cons of said trial then they will gain skill. Completely different than anything mentioned earlier.

you seem to be refusing to be open to other's opinions as well.

No, I am against behaviors, not opinions. It's okay to not want to unlock more than three jobs worth of merit weapon skills. It's okay to want to unlock more than three jobs worth of merit weapon skills. It's okay to have the opinion that more merit weapon skills will lead to less diversity, as it is okay to have the opinion that the opposite is true. What I'm against is constantly berating other people for voicing their own thoughts on the matter. To say ones' mind one time is acceptable... but to continuously put down other peoples' voices is different.

In other words, your opinion of specializing a character is acceptable. Repeatedly insinuating that other people are against specialization simply because they want to maximize their every job isn't.

When you do things you don't want to do, you're not playing a game. You're working. I don't need to level WAR or SAM to make my experience more enjoyable.

Then that's your choice. I personally sacrifice many things to make my playing experience better. I leveled red mage sub when I didn't want to. I did events when I didn't want to. The sacrifices are later rewarded with desired benefits. It's up to you which sacrifices you desire to make. Nobody said you had to level WAR or SAM... however, keep in mind, you may not be able to participate in events you want to simply because of that choice. And that's okay. Some people have the opinion that someone should level all jobs so as to provide the most beneficial to their group, some people believe they ought to level every job for their own benefit, and some people like you believe that only jobs that are enjoyable for the player should be leveled. There's no right or wrong opinion, it's just how people play.

I've already done that, so why did you write this post and troll me back into it?
1. Because you posted you were done while I was writing my post, and 2. because I am aware that you have aspergers. You've said before (maybe not on their forum but the wiki one) that sometimes it's difficult to understand what people are conveying to you emotionally. So, I figured I would do you a favor and let you know in written format how people are perceiving you. I wanted you to know for your own sake, not to troll. I don't troll people. I have better things to do with my time than waste it trying to tote someone's goat. It was your choice to come back and respond to my post, not mine. You're free to exit out of a post just as you are free to respond to them.

I've already agreed with the idea of a limit increase countless times in this thread. Where are you getting this idea that i'm giving a constant "no" response? Several of you seem to really enjoy trolling me. Otherwise you would have noticed my agreement, and the other thread on this topic which I "liked" and supported. Instead, you and others continue to pick a fight with me. We're fussing over details, when the actual issue has already been settled.

We're not trolling you. We're telling you we don't like your pessimism. There's a huge difference between straight out telling someone you're angry with them and trolling them. Please learn the difference. As for declaring you the "no" police, re-examine how many threads you have rejected. One agreement does not cancel out fifty other disagreements. Even this topic you have strongly fought against.

We don't start the war against details, just so you know.

Verytus

05-16-2012, 09:19 AM

I can see that this has been a really great discussion with a lot of valid ideas put forth by many of you. However, it seems the discussion has become a bit unfocused and some people have begun to attack each other directly. As I said, this is a great thread, so hopefully we can bring it back on topic and continue the discussion.

Drakhon

05-16-2012, 09:24 AM

"I ALREADY AGREED THAT THERE SHOULD BE AN INCREASE IN THE WEAPON SKILL POINT LIMIT."

I am unable to get the quote option to work properly because of my old computer and Firefox, so please forgive the crudeness of my quotes, but Alhanelem, this is why people are still arguing with you.

"Disagree, and not liked. You should have to specialize, that's what merits were originally about.

You can already merit them all if you don't mind them not being as good."

This was your first post on the subject in this topic. So as many times as you say you agree, you originally disagreed and that is what everyone believes of you not your 180 turn.

Alhanelem

05-16-2012, 11:36 AM

This was your first post on the subject in this topic. So as many times as you say you agree, you originally disagreed and that is what everyone believes of you not your 180 turn. I can see how hard it would be to believe (that one could have a change of heart) given how stubborn people are aound here (myself included), but I decided very early on that an increase in the limit would be OK. This is all the OP was originally asking for, but then some people were suggesting that it should be done away with altogether, which is something I still do not support. this began mostly because the OP was too brief and not specific. another thread was started later with a more specific suggestion and I both supoprted and liked that thread.

Then that's your choice. I personally sacrifice many things to make my playing experience better.Playing a job I don't want to play degrades my playing experience, not makes it better. I guess some people just like to suffer. I don't find that my playing experience has improved when I do something I don't want to do for the sake of getting something for another job. Of course, if the job balance was better, it would rarely become an issue.

Personally, I gain more satisfaction when I use a particular job to earn things for that job. I enjoy the challenge presented by using different methods than the mainstream. But this is a "to each his own" kind of thing.

FrankReynolds

05-16-2012, 02:18 PM

Nala

05-16-2012, 03:12 PM

Alhanelem

05-16-2012, 05:05 PM

Bottom line:
You cannot say there needs to be a cap because if there wasn't everyone would unlock every WS...

When you yourself only have 5/20 jobs leveled.

Your very existence is proof that you are wrong.

The more you argue, the sillier you look.
The number of jobs I have leveled is irrelevant, especially considering ive already supported the idea of increasing the merit limit (for the 200 jillionth time and counting). Why you continue to argue against me when I'm on your side is beyond me. Maybe you're just trying to collect more likes by ridiculing me, I don't know. People do weird things sometimes. I still have to wonder, how many more pages of bashing me when I actually share (at least in part) the popular position it will take before people realize it?

hiko

05-16-2012, 08:15 PM

All I play is three jobs (on the one character) and 3 WSs still means I'm screwed

for DRK BST and SAM I need Stardiver Shoha, Ruinator, Entropy, and Resolution

F T F Y..........
.

Finuve

05-16-2012, 09:34 PM

No, you don't need all four of them. The complaint in this thread is that you can't get enough weapon skills to have -one- for each job.

There is absolutely -nothing- wrong with this. It's a personal choice. That doesn't invalidate my opinions. I've been playing this game since soon after it came out. Don't you DARE try to paint me as a noob. I'm not as stupid as you apparently think I look- My opinion isn't purely based on my personal experiences.

Why WOULD I put effort into a job I don't want to play? I don't want to play it, therefore I'm not going to. Part of the fun is finding new and unusual ways of doing things. I've been to virtually every HNM in existence on one or more of those 5 jobs. It takes enough time to fully gear 5 jobs, much less 20, so believe me, it's more than enough to keep me busy. You're nothing but an elitist or a jerk if you look down on people for not having all 20 jobs leveled.

Bullshiat. You're still going to STOP eventually. It might take a little longer. There's still a finish line even without the limits. The difference is when everyone has hit that finish line, with the limits each character is a little different. Without those limits, every character is exactly the same.

yes i DO need all 4 of them, who are you to say I don't, and Hiko is right, I need stardiver too

Llana_Virren

05-17-2012, 11:00 AM

yes i DO need all 4 of them, who are you to say I don't, and Hiko is right, I need stardiver too

Can't you just drop your merits out of one and start putting new merits somewhere else?

Or are you just saying that you want to be able to unlock everything without any "chocie" or "sacrifice" included?

Zumi

05-17-2012, 02:13 PM

The point of the merit system has always been to have specialization for your character. They don't want you to be the best at everything in the game. I am perfectly fine with 3 merit WS skills capped.

Arcon

05-17-2012, 02:30 PM

Or are you just saying that you want to be able to unlock everything without any "chocie" or "sacrifice" included?

This. Trade-offs are for the real world. In a fantasy world I wanna be able to do everything. Choices and customization are good if you wanna tailor something to your own preference. However, it's very bad if your preference is to play all your jobs at their best.

Also, you cannot just unmerit a WS and remerit a new one. It requires 100 merits to fully cap a WS, which means three EXP parties in between (assuming you already had 30 merits stored up). That is quite an investment.

I hate not being able to do something someone else can, for the pointless sake of "customization". It's just a word, a lame one at that. There is no need for SE to cater to it.

Finuve

05-17-2012, 09:35 PM

Can't you just drop your merits out of one and start putting new merits somewhere else?

Or are you just saying that you want to be able to unlock everything without any "chocie" or "sacrifice" included?Thats exactly what im saying, I didnt have to delvl SAM to level BST, and why should I

and seriously? drop 100 merits worth of WS and redo, no thanks

Camiie

05-17-2012, 11:30 PM

You know I think SE does things like this on purpose, but it isn't for the sake of balance or specialization. It's so they can swoop in later to fix a problem they created to begin with in an attempt to look all generous and heroic. It'll probably be a big part of a future update.

Spiritreaver

05-18-2012, 01:41 AM

Saenomo

05-18-2012, 06:46 AM

I think granting access to the meritable weaponskills via the unlocking quest wouldn't be too unreasonable, and to leave the merits to augment them. So unlocking the category would give you the ability to use all the weaponskills assuming you had the needed skill, but they would be less impressive than their lower level counterparts without merits in them. Then each merit into one of them would make them become more impressive additional merits currently do.

Example:
Requiescat -
0 Merits - 5-hit Non-elemental damage somewhere around Vorpal Blade (as the previous non-quested weaponskill prior to Sanguine Blade).
1 Merits - 5-hit Non-Elemental damage. Adjust MND Bonus by 14%(13.6%)*.
2 Merits - 5-hit Non-Elemental damage. Adjust MND Bonus by 28%(27.2%)*.
3 Merits - 5-hit Non-Elemental damage. Adjust MND Bonus by 42%(40.8%)*.
4 Merits - 5-hit Non-Elemental damage. Adjust MND Bonus by 56%(54.4%)*.
5 Merits - 5-hit Non-Elemental damage. Adjust MND Bonus by 70%(68.0%)*.
*The number in parenthesis denotes the current capped weaponskill split across 5 merits instead of 4 (because first unlocks as is).

As a sidenote, can we get an adjustment on the stat for this one to something at least somewhat more likely? I can understand a paladin or red mage having solid mind stats, but none of the other five jobs that can use this. I could see Int as a choice simply because it is suppose to be non-elemental (assumed magic) damage, or even Dex modification as it has multiple hits.

Llana_Virren

05-18-2012, 11:55 AM

Trade-offs are for the real world. In a fantasy world I wanna be able to do everything.

Maybe it's just me, but if everyone could do everything there'd be no point in playing a fantasy world at all. All words have rules, be the world real (here) or imagined (in-game).

After all, let's take this a step further, shall we? I learned Dia as a lv.1 RDM. Just because I changed jobs to Thief doesn't mean I somehow got amnesia and forgot my magic. And with MP+ gear and merits, it's not like I don't have the MP to cast, either.

But if a Lv.99 SAM could cast all spells and use all JAs and JTs and WSs... yeah.

Merits were not designed to be the next phase of character "evolution." Rather, it is character customization. Granted, a lot of merit categories are so underwhelming that no one uses them (and thus limits the amount of customization available), but the WS category fits the bill perfectly.

But in case you still think you should be able to do everything, refer back to my Lv.99 SAM casting Meteor example.

Camiie

05-18-2012, 12:29 PM

Maybe it's just me, but if everyone could do everything there'd be no point in playing a fantasy world at all.

It's not just you, but it's not many more than you. Your SAM casting Meteor or THF casting Dia as a main job examples are a refuge in absurdity. I'm not asking for spells and abilities to be available for jobs that cannot use them. I'm merely asking to be able to fully unlock whatever merit-based weapon skills I have met the requirements for. Proper job, 357+ skill and 100 merits.

I'm still going to be specialized by changing jobs, so I don't see the issue.

Drakhon

05-18-2012, 12:30 PM

Merits were put into the game because players wanted their characters to become stronger but SE didn't want to go past lv 75, simple as that. If it was for specializing on specific jobs, it would be like the ws and you could only boost the powers of a few jobs. The fact that you can strengthen every job shows this. The closest thing they have to customization is in the stats, magic and weapons and even those unless you pick specific weapons and magic, boosts multiple jobs so again your not specializing in a job. Even boosting specific abilities like blu magic or summoning, great katana and katana can be used to boost those jobs as a subjob. So merits were a trick used by SE to stay at lv 75. The simple fact that we have now passed that limitation to 99 and how simple it is to receive merits now shows how minuscule limit points are to the jobs now. I would have to say the only merits used for customization would be for enmity control. Spend points to boost it for tank jobs or lower it for mage jobs. And even that is useless now as hate control is skewed.

Meyi

05-18-2012, 12:44 PM

But in case you still think you should be able to do everything, refer back to my Lv.99 SAM casting Meteor example.

Except, nobody was asking to have any ability available for a job that wouldn't have access to it in the first place. What this topic is arguing for is the ability to unlock every weapon skill for the jobs that can use them. This topic is not asking to have Tachi: Shoha become available for RDM.

Arcon

05-18-2012, 02:16 PM

Maybe it's just me, but if everyone could do everything there'd be no point in playing a fantasy world at all.

While I feel you're being too literal with my statement (I just used it as an ice-breaker for my argument), I'll try to answer that. What exactly is the job system? Simply put, it's an excuse for people not having to level other characters to experience other classes. And if you ask me, it's quite an elegant solution, because it's an acceptable loss of ingame realism (amnesia on job change) for player convenience. I firmly believe SE should consider this approach more often and just ignore realism loss for the sake of convenience. Sadly, they're obsessively compulsive about this and always try to justify their gameplay choices by some twisted lore arguments. See Traverser Stones, they gave them a completely unnecessary lore background (that no one even buys) just to satisfy their need for lore consistency, which is ironic considering its inconsistent explanation. The point being, looking for ingame explanations for game mechanics is unneeded at best, at times even annoying (sitting through minutes worth of cutscenes just to hear how exactly the Moogle is enchanting your trial piece is just one example).

So changing jobs is all good and well. We don't need to concern ourselves with explanations of how and why when it's very simple: so people can play multiple jobs. Merits on the other hand push this further. They push this lore inconsistency onto a single job, and that's what bothers people. Because when people decide to play a job, they don't do it for specific merit paths. They do it because they like it and wanna learn it and be good at it. They have accepted the inconsistency of the job system itself gladly, because it enhances their game experience. This time, it's different. This time they find themselves at a point where they can't do something an equally skilled and geared player of the same job can't. This time, for no lore reason at all, something impairs their game experience. And as you can no doubt understand, people have an easier time accepting the first case over the latter.

There is also a fundamental difference with merits, namely that you cannot switch at will, something the job system was specifically designed to do. To compare it accurately, you can imagine a job system where switching jobs will delevel your previous job to 49. I don't think it's hard to see why people wouldn't go for it. If the merit system allowed to switch unconditionally whenever you're in the Mog House it would already be a great help, though still not perfect. At least you wouldn't have to sacrifice utility in one event for utility in another, which is what you currently do.

And for the record, everyone knows what merits were intended for and what they do. But that is precisely what people have a problem with.