Attacking Monsters with an Avatar While Being AFK.

[Krashport]

I am not with or against it, But if the system allows it, This should not be a problem with balance, also this could totally be taken as harassment on the companies part, now we have to worry about if our pets are out if we plan to AFK in the near future.

I see people dual boxing without others being at their coms all that time, having them on auto-follow. What makes this any different. Only problem I see, BST, PUP and DRG not having the auto-counter attack system.

If you gotta go, you gotta go and if having this auto-counter attack system on every pet job would balance things out, we could all totally AFK and take or leave a $#@! in peace, (might get some nomnoms on the way back).

[Midorikaze]

It's part of the game mechanic, but it's forbidden. What? Either have all jobs have access to it or remove it if it's that much of an issue. Also, what if someone does have to take a major emergency poo (or something else unplanned and urgent happens) and there's no time to Dismiss their pet before running AFK only to come back to their character being in jail or something. That wouldn't be fair.

We may spend a good bit of time on FFXI, but we aren't robots. :\

[Luvbunny]

This does not make any sense at all.... why is this considered as harassment? Avatar does not have endless HP, it will die, and when it does - you can bet your bottom drawer that the said afk smn will die fast.

[Krashport]

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn80/Krashport/image0101010.jpg
lol really... do we have to...

[Duzell]

This does not make any sense at all.... why is this considered as harassment? Avatar does not have endless HP, it will die, and when it does - you can bet your bottom drawer that the said afk smn will die fast.

SMNs were doing this with Chigos, said mobs will not ever kill your pet before garuda criticals on them.

[Alhanelem]

This isn't a problem, in fact honestly the auto attack on aggro is often more of an annoyance than a benefit.

I also don't understand at all how this is "harassing" anyone.

[Arcon]

SMNs were doing this with Chigos, said mobs will not ever kill your pet before garuda criticals on them.

Garuda will die eventually. If you're really afk you cannot resummon, and most importantly, you cannot cure yourself. If more than one aggro, you're fucked.

Also, can anyone fill me in on what exactly people were exploiting? Are SE upset that people were getting 2k EXP overnight? Or a stack of Chigoe Blood? What? I have no idea what has been exploited in Grauberg [S] so that people actually profited off of it. The worst I can imagine is people doing trial kills, which is still horribly inefficient. I don't see what's, in any way, shape or form, bad about this.

I actually do care a bit about this, because I've used this to make pulling easier. This has been especially useful for trials, where you can pull with Dia or even by activating a BP and have the avatar engage the mob automatically. It will be a bit more tiresome to do it manually, and I'm opposed to any trade off of intellectual labor for manual labor.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I used the autoattack to learn Angra Mainyu's summons have an aggro range somewhere in the 300 yalms range (pre update).

And that statement has to be one of the dumbest I've heard in awhile.

[Duzell]

Garuda will die eventually. If you're really afk you cannot resummon, and most importantly, you cannot cure yourself. If more than one aggro, you're fucked.

Also, can anyone fill me in on what exactly people were exploiting? Are SE upset that people were getting 2k EXP overnight? Or a stack of Chigoe Blood? What? I have no idea what has been exploited in Grauberg [S] so that people actually profited off of it. The worst I can imagine is people doing trial kills, which is still horribly inefficient. I don't see what's, in any way, shape or form, bad about this.

I actually do care a bit about this, because I've used this to make pulling easier. This has been especially useful for trials, where you can pull with Dia or even by activating a BP and have the avatar engage the mob automatically. It will be a bit more tiresome to do it manually, and I'm opposed to any trade off of intellectual labor for manual labor.

PPL were doing it to farm wind geodes and Garudites while AFK, due to the frequent wind weather in the zone and ease of killing chigoes.

[Tile]

PPL were doing it to farm wind geodes and Garudites while AFK, due to the frequent wind weather in the zone and ease of killing chigoes.

I saw this and thought it was pretty Clever. But it's not like they would go afk and come back to stacks, it would only be afew, SE just doesn't like that they found away to auto play the game, they see it like the old Fishing bots.

Also i saw it done with carby, Since carby gets Auto-Regen and is free at every lvl

[Neisan_Quetz]

You can't farm garudite while afk, their level is not high enough. You only get blood and some geodes. It's horrendously slow even for that, there's only 2 chigoe pops at one spot.

And geodes are on a 5 minute timer if I understand right, in addition to the above. You're not getting alot of geodes, or experience doing this.

[Luvbunny]

Maybe we should nuke this thread into oblivion then, in case SE has some great idea for balance and destroyed the one job it never even bother to tweak adjust or making it better, yeah the most iconic job of FFXI, summoner.

[Nala]

Implemented in FFIII (nes/japanese numbering) along with the first appearance of moogles, there were 3 jobs that could summon them, evoker, summoner and the sage, each had their own version of the summon, in many of the FF games summoning magic has been one of the most if not the most powerful form of magic, the state of SMN on 11 is indeed depressing.

[Camiie]

Yunaphobia: The irrational fear that the SMN job will become an effective and important part of the game.

Perhaps I should amend this to "will become effective at anything."

[Rezeak]

<SE guy1> err guys we have a problem
<SE guy2> ??
<SE guy1>Yea we have 100s of people using programs to cheat in nyzle isle
<SE guy2>Ok, yea we all know that much but we can't detect it....
<SE guy3>WAIT GUYS!!!!!! THERE A FAR MORE SERIOUS ISSUE
<SE guy1> what ?
<SE guy3>PPLE ARE GOING AFK ON SMN WITH AN AVATAR AND FARMING GEODES FOR THERE TRAILS!!!!!
<SE guy2>ooo we can detect that easy cause it's a feature we've built into the the game
<SE guy1>Sounds like serious buisness!! rets ban em!!!

Imo this is dumb stuff banning pple for going afk and using an ingame feature that been there for years is /facepalm

[Shadowsong]

Community Reps: Please respond to this thread. Why is the DEV team punishing us when we have real life emergencies? Do I need to hard-power down my computer because my boss needs me for 20 minutes and I have a pet out?

[Alhanelem]

Community Reps: Please respond to this thread. Why is the DEV team punishing us when we have real life emergencies? Do I need to hard-power down my computer because my boss needs me for 20 minutes and I have a pet out?

You really can't hit your unsummon macro before minimizing/hiding the game?

[Krashport]

You really can't hit your unsummon macro before minimizing/hiding the game?

Not everyone plays the game using macros, also some people do play in full-screen and just turn off their monitor/T.V.. When their going to take a break or go AFK. Having an Avatar out shouldn't be any different from when people AFK at the entrance to the Mog house.

I personally think that's more of a problem then having a Avatar out, makes the cities and areas around it so laggy. But I can see and I do understand why people do it and I'm not against it. It helps to see what /shouts going on cause you can't see them inside a Mog House, and that loading screen takes forever and a day to pop up... Just to zone into the Mog House so, in other words if you gotta go, you gotta go. To jello (yes I said jello,) on waiting for the loading screen.

[Tamoa]

This is just amazing, and not in a good way. On par with the official response to making sneak/invis outside party spells.

[Economizer]

I'm surprised SE hasn't done anything about this years ago if it really bugs them...

Summoners have been AFK soloing Morbolger for years in order to get his vine without camping it.

[Dazusu]

<SE guy1> err guys we have a problem
<SE guy2> ??
<SE guy1>Yea we have 100s of people using programs to cheat in nyzle isle
<SE guy2>Ok, yea we all know that much but we can't detect it....
<SE guy3>WAIT GUYS!!!!!! THERE A FAR MORE SERIOUS ISSUE
<SE guy1> what ?
<SE guy3>PPLE ARE GOING AFK ON SMN WITH AN AVATAR AND FARMING GEODES FOR THERE TRAILS!!!!!
<SE guy2>ooo we can detect that easy cause it's a feature we've built into the the game
<SE guy1>Sounds like serious buisness!! rets ban em!!!


Your role-play makes me warm in the pants.

[Raksha]

edit: nvm...

[Alhanelem]

Not everyone plays the game using macrosUmmm... what?

Yes, they do.

I probably use the menus more than anyone, but even I still have macros.

[Krashport]

Ummm... what?

Yes, they do.

I probably use the menus more than anyone, but even I still have macros.
They may "Have" macro's. But not everyone "Uses" them some just pick from the list of spells and abilities. I personally don't use Macro's all the time myself.

[Karbuncle]

If you don't use macros you're doing it very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very ....

Wrong.

Learn how to do it its not hard. Only excuse is laziness. In-game macros are a tad limited but you can make wonderful use of them by making a system. Situational gear and armor, WS and TP Set armor, all of it exists for the Macro system. If you don't take advantage of it, You're doing it wrong. No real discussion here.

It doesn't take long to learn, stop being a wannabe FFXI Hipster and hatin' on macros cause Macros are too mainstream for you. You'll seriously wonder how you played without them once you learn. I know back in my early days, I full timed DEX rings on my THF... DEX GEAR, This was back at like level 30-40 though... But knowing by level 50 i knew how to make a macro.. was a game changer. I Could use R.Harness full time and Swift Belt, but still switch them out for WS!

Its not a lot of work to learn it :)

(Of note, there are some exceptions - I Don't have a macro for every spell, That'd be pretty dumb, BUt important ones you might want one for -

Garuda Macro to equip Karura Hachigane
I have a special Macro labelled ShivaMacc for her Macc BOots.

I also have a macro named after each Avatar, including the above, That would swap in the proper staff and summon them at the same time. I use Fay Crozier still these days cause well, Works ⌐ ⌐, But if i did use different staves, Thats a good use for the macros.)

[Sparthos]

Hey SE, People are AFKing in Abyssea and making millions of gil per hour. Gonna do something about that?

:P

[RAIST]

Hey SE, People are AFKing in Abyssea and making millions of gil per hour. Gonna do something about that?

:P

Was wondering if anyone was gonna draw this contrast. RMT and merc groups pulling in large chunks of gil, players racing to the top, flooding the AH with gil buying up spells and various accessories for higher levels, effectively killing the sales rate of lower/mid-tier equipment....in effect trashing a large sector of the economy.

And they have a hissy fit because someone is solo afk'ing for a paultry amount of xp and at best 11/12 drops an hour for a crafting/magian item that just happens to sell anywhere between 20 and 40k a pop depending on server and supply/demand. People make gil faster in Dynamis with minimal effort ( I went in there just to fart around on MNK solo one day and made over 200k in bazaar inside of 15 minutes after I came out--in BASTOK no less, didn't even make it to Jeuno before I sold out). They routinely make an ungodly rate of XP/hour while AFK in Abyssea and GoV (some people buy the slots, so someone is making 100's of thousands of gil per hour hosting cleave parties)......and they are getting their panties in a whad over this??

/facepalm

[Windwhisper]

honestly. This is by far the worst reason to ban anyone. Community has spoken very clear on this matter.

there are far more depressing matters.

I for one wont ever call a GM when i see someone afking with avatar out. and to call out to us, to encourage us to report them is so sad.... i miss the right words. its just sad SE

[hideka]

Garuda will die eventually. If you're really afk you cannot resummon, and most importantly, you cannot cure yourself. If more than one aggro, you're fucked.

Also, can anyone fill me in on what exactly people were exploiting? Are SE upset that people were getting 2k EXP overnight? Or a stack of Chigoe Blood? What? I have no idea what has been exploited in Grauberg [S] so that people actually profited off of it. The worst I can imagine is people doing trial kills, which is still horribly inefficient. I don't see what's, in any way, shape or form, bad about this.

I actually do care a bit about this, because I've used this to make pulling easier. This has been especially useful for trials, where you can pull with Dia or even by activating a BP and have the avatar engage the mob automatically. It will be a bit more tiresome to do it manually, and I'm opposed to any trade off of intellectual labor for manual labor.

i think its more of completing AFK magian trials.

[hideka]

as well as preventing non AFK people from completing their trials.

[Alhanelem]

Regardless of what you think of the "feature" of your avatar auto attacking anything that aggros you, being AFK and your avatar killing what aggros you is hardly an efficient way to spend your time, and it's ridiculous, downright ridiculous, for SE to say that this is a rule violation that can get you in trouble. It's a by-design mechanic of the game- it's not a glitch or anything. If you've earned the atmas and have the capability of doing this, you've earned it.

Nobody should be getting their account in trouble for this.


as well as preventing non AFK people from completing their trials. How are you preventing anyone else from completing trials? You can only fight one monster at a time, and it takes forever. You're not impeding anyone else's ability to play the game, you're not making tons of money or getting lots of EXP. This is pretty much harmless.

[hideka]

since you cant target chiggoes, the first one to aggro it essentially gets claim. now if you have 10+ summoners chilling in grauberg.... now it becomes extremely hard to effectively complete a vermin based quest.

[Komori]

Actually have friends who have BLU and ask them to chigoe burn on windsday? And chigoes become targetable once they've been aggro'd, and I'm pretty sure avatars only focus on one at a time not multiple like BST?

[Kysaiana]

The easiest way to remedy this would be to remove the extremely annoying/useless auto-engage feature from avatars that people have complained about since the days of CoP. The only time it's useful is when you want to kite a mob with an avatar to save a few seconds/yalms by not having to hit assault. But I can't really think of a situation where you'd want to do this these days. That said I'm sure SE will just do something like make the chigoe not give EXP and therefore not drop geodes, simultaneously killing off a good vermin trial camp.

On the other hand I have not actually seen anyone doing this, so maybe it's server specific? Still, I've been told I'm not very observant.

[Tamoa]

On the other hand I have not actually seen anyone doing this, so maybe it's server specific? Still, I've been told I'm not very observant.

I have never seen anyone do this either, nor have I ever heard of it being done until SE made this announcement. So I reeeeally doubt it's a widespread and serious issue which - to use SE's own words - "upsets game balance and interrupts the game play of other players".

And holy crap, if you're doing some kind of vermin trial I'm sure there are other much more efficient ways of completing said trial.

Wonder who the hell brought this to SE's attention in the first place. What a sad waste of a GMs time.

[Camiie]

Why do SMN mechanics have to be changed? It sounds like the "problem" is with the behavior or placement of chigoes.

@Komori, Avatars only attack whatever targets the SMN or what the SMN directs them to attack. Unlike BST pets they won't defend themselves from mobs that link onto them. They also can only defend us from one mob at a time. If two goblins attack me Carby will go after the first one that targeted me, but he's not going to bounce between both to protect me from the second one. I have to Assault him on it myself.

[Bulrogg]

All this moaning..... what's so hard about not going afk in a specific area?

There is no reason to change a behavior of avatars that has been utilized since the jobs creation.

[hiko]

You really can't hit your unsummon macro before minimizing/hiding the game?

and if he is fighting when he have to AFK? he unsummon and just die?

[Windwhisper]

Easiest way to solve this is to make chigoes stop aggroing level 99 players and make them targetable in the first place, OR increase their level a bit, so it actually takes some skill to kill them. Either way. This has nothing to do with avatars autoattack, which is totally fine the way it is.

[Camiie]

Easiest way to solve this is to make chigoes stop aggroing level 99 players and make them targetable in the first place, OR increase their level a bit, so it actually takes some skill to kill them. Either way. This has nothing to do with avatars autoattack, which is totally fine the way it is.

Just randomize the placement of them. Have them able to spawn all over the particular area and not just in the bushes. Then people would have to move to claim them. "Problem" solved.

[Yinnyth]

I have never seen anyone do this either, nor have I ever heard of it being done until SE made this announcement. So I reeeeally doubt it's a widespread and serious issue which - to use SE's own words - "upsets game balance and interrupts the game play of other players".

SMNs were at every chigoe pop in Grauberg 24/7 last time I did the dagger wind path (75 vermin kills wind weather/day). So it's a problem on Fenrir at least. Might've even been rmt, honestly... half of them had no linkshell on. I'm pretty sure they're doing it for the breeze and thunder geodes. I certainly wish I could get breeze and thunder geodes while I'm at work or in bed, but that's not the way SE wants their game to be played.

[Alhanelem]

since you cant target chiggoesSince you're not moving, other players have plenty more opportunity than you to aggro them. But what retarded-arse trial has chigoes anyway?

-edit- well...

SMNs were at every chigoe pop in Grauberg 24/7 last time I did the dagger wind path (75 vermin kills wind weather/day)Are you serious? I don't even know 3 people with the patience to do those kinds of trials.

I guess the issue is semi-specific to abyssea grauberg... with RR you'll oneshot almost every chigoe so that's why...

[Arcon]

I guess the issue is semi-specific to abyssea grauberg... with RR you'll oneshot almost every chigoe so that's why...

I think they mean Grauberg [S], actually, as it has very frequent wind weather.

[Alhanelem]

errr, yeah. never mind me...

Still, I think it's pretty ridiculous to punish anybody for this when it's not even an exploit- it's just a normal mechanic of the game working as intended.

[Yinnyth]

errr, yeah. never mind me...

Still, I think it's pretty ridiculous to punish anybody for this when it's not even an exploit- it's just a normal mechanic of the game working as intended.

Your body also works as a temporary barrier for other players who wish to move through you. Normally this isn't a problem, but let's say you choose to go afk in a doorway with 20 other players who are also afk in that doorway. Now you're gridlocking which is against the rules.

Being afk is not against the rules. Having your avatar defend you is not against the rules. But it IS possible to combine these 2 things in a way that IS against the rules: absentee play.

[Ladyofdragons]

Your body also works as a temporary barrier for other players who wish to move through you. Normally this isn't a problem, but let's say you choose to go afk in a doorway with 20 other players who are also afk in that doorway. Now you're gridlocking which is against the rules.

Being afk is not against the rules. Having your avatar defend you is not against the rules. But it IS possible to combine these 2 things in a way that IS against the rules: absentee play.

And this is happening in jeuno but it doesn't seem to be an issue but in grauberg(s) it's happening and it is an issue
hmm.. wonder why it's area specific.

[Elexia]

So I'm assuming this has to be during Wind Weather only? As 1 blu can finish off 17 SMNs np in abyss-attowah unless they need kill shot of element/avatar.

(even then, leafstorm could do nicely when buffed.)

[Yinnyth]

And this is happening in jeuno but it doesn't seem to be an issue but in grauberg(s) it's happening and it is an issue
hmm.. wonder why it's area specific.

Because of the resources required to fix each problem and the intent behind violators of both problems.

So let's look at the resources required first: GMs have a lot of red tape to go through everytime they interact with a character. Chat protocol, stuff they're required to record, everything they must go through for each individual character before they can move on to interacting with the next (they don't get to just batch-warp people into their MH). Heading out to Grauberg and jailing a dozen SMNs every now and then requires much fewer resources than dealing with the hundreds of chars idling around Jeuno 24/7.

These SMNs are also people who are going out of their way to break the terms of service. Grauberg has no terribly quick ways to get to it for a SMN. They get on blm, retrace themselves, change jobs in town, teleport out to Grauberg, then move to a chigoe camp in order to go afk and engage in absentee play. These are people who are actually intending to do something which is against the rules. The people idling in Jeuno? Some of them fell asleep waiting for a shout. Some of them are just grabbing a quick bite to eat. Some of them are a bazaar mule. Some of them went afk somewhere stupid, died, was force-HP'd and hasn't come back to the keyboard yet. These are people who aren't trying to do anything detrimental. They also don't get breeze geodes for going afk.

[RAIST]

What SE needs to do is focus on the root of the problem--the incentive. The issue isn't the fact a pet can auto attack, the issue is how easy it is to kill chigoes for geodes. 5 minute repop, can easily kill with a crit hit/JA/WS and still get the drops, even though no xp earned--and geodes are suspected to drop on a 5 minute timer.

They need to change the dynamics for getting drops. Several have posted in here the idea that if the PLAYER doesn't actively engage somehow, no xp/item rewards (ie, passive auto pet kill, no drops). Another way could be to extend the already existing code that negates xp on crit-hit/JA/WS instant kill to negate any drops as well. The later is probably a much easy change to make, as the framework for negating xp already exists.

Make it less profitable to farm them in the first place, and it will free them up in general as a farming target.

[Sgtdoughnut]

Really surprised no one has made this suggestion by now. Why not just remove the geodes from the treasure pool for the chigoes in question? Going to assume that if they crit kill, since that makes it not yield exp, that that means no credit for the trial (just guessing, idk for sure). So it makes sense to follow that no trial credit and no geodes equates to no more summoners out there. And even if it still gives credit for trial, I'm sure that would, at the very least, get rid of the RMT bots out there.

[Kristal]

I don't understand why people are so upset with SE taking a stance against this kind of behaviour. It's obviously being abused AND it's detrimental to gameplay of others that seek these particular critters for any reason or are just passing by and have to witness the abuse.

The only people being affected are those that go afk for a considerable time expecting to reap rewards (however slim).
People do not go afk on SMN on top of a chigoe spawn in Grauberg[S] wearing optimal gear for infinite survival, with no intent of farming...



Really surprised no one has made this suggestion by now. Why not just remove the geodes from the treasure pool for the chigoes in question? Going to assume that if they crit kill, since that makes it not yield exp, that that means no credit for the trial (just guessing, idk for sure). So it makes sense to follow that no trial credit and no geodes equates to no more summoners out there. And even if it still gives credit for trial, I'm sure that would, at the very least, get rid of the RMT bots out there.

Geodes are not part of the chigoe loot pool.
A far better option would be to have Sarcopsylla spawn and despawn every 5 minutes at any one of the chigoe spots. But until that's changed, SE needs to put a ban on this kind of farming.

[Avina]

It was mentioned before, but really, when it comes to the issue of absentee play this should be the absolute BOTTOM concern on SE's mind, what with the rampant fell cleave burn parties that have junked some 90% of the game's economy.

Level 30 to level 99 in a few hours is just fine with Square-Enix while the player sleeps? That's not absentee play? I'm not suggesting they change that, although I don't burn, I'm just saying this seems like a totally random thing for them to target when the crazy burning is already happening. Inconsistent policy is inconsistent.

[RAIST]

I don't understand why people are so upset with SE taking a stance against this kind of behaviour. It's obviously being abused AND it's detrimental to gameplay of others that seek these particular critters for any reason or are just passing by and have to witness the abuse.

The only people being affected are those that go afk for a considerable time expecting to reap rewards (however slim).
People do not go afk on SMN on top of a chigoe spawn in Grauberg[S] wearing optimal gear for infinite survival, with no intent of farming...




Geodes are not part of the chigoe loot pool.
A far better option would be to have Sarcopsylla spawn and despawn every 5 minutes at any one of the chigoe spots. But until that's changed, SE needs to put a ban on this kind of farming.

The concern is more about the measures SE would put in place to combat this situation. We've all seen how they over reacted in the past. It seems to be targetting specifically the SMN job. Looking at SE's past record, it's not too far fetched for people to expect SE will go after the job and not the REAL root of the problem--the nature of the monster that they have targetted.

Look at it this way, if they nerf SMN pet auto-attack feature so they can no longer do this on SMN (nerfing a LARGE part of SMN's usefulness, as has already been laid out)--people may STILL flock to farming these critters anyway. Perhaps still on SMN, maybe on another job. It's not like the buggers are hard to kill.

Let's look at the target: 5 minute respawn. Limit on Geode drop rate: 1 in 5 minutes.

Hmmm.....see a pattern? How long does it take to kill a Chigoe in Gruaberg [S]? And with 5 minutes between repops, you have time to rest a bit, cure/refresh, rebuff if needed. It's not far fetched to envision other jobs taking advantage of these targets strictly for farming geodes.

ANY job can just stand there in the bushes, wait for the pops to aggro, and attack them. No running around chasing after mobs. A big decrease in the need to compete for claim. I don't know how many pop spots there are, but say there are 10, and one is the bush that spawns the NM. That leave 9.... NINE camps for people to do this at. Compare that to having to run around chasing Funguar to do the same thing. These are simply too attractive a target for the geode farming PERIOD, regardless of what job is farming them.

TLDR: The problem is NOT with SMN...it is with the CHIGOES THEMSELVES. The concern is that SE is going to go after SMN, and not the REAL root of the problem.

[Vold]

Recently, we have confirmed an issue wherein players in Grauberg (S) will leave their summoned avatars out while they’re AFK and let the avatars attack monsters by using the auto-counter attack system. Also, we have confirmed that these players have gained experience points and items through this act.

Not only does this act upset the game balance, it may interrupt the game play of other players. Any players caught performing the act by a Game Master (GM) may see disciplinary action taken against their accounts. Therefore, we ask that you please refrain yourself from performing this act.

Please be advised that a GM may request assistance from you if they determine that your actions may be causing a disruption in the game balance. If you received instructions from a GM, we ask that you follow them immediately. If you do not follow the instructions, as stated previously, the GM will take action against your account.
HELL YES THE GMS ARE BACK. IT'S ABOUT TI-


If you encounter a player performing this act, please do not hesitate to report them to the Special Task Force via the URL listed below. The Special Task Force and the GMs will work together to investigate the matter accordingly....ooooooooh. So, like, instead of just calling a GD GM right then and there to catch the person in the act, you rather we go to a third party so they can waste hours checking logs or not at all. Hey it's ok everyone. They're just doing this for show. Some JP probably pitched a fit over the "issue" and reported it.

[MiniDiamond]

Honestly, if their afraid if people are grinding exp with the "Auto-Counter" System, Then SE should make it so you only get EXP and items if you're Fighting. Bam.

[Camiie]

TLDR: The problem is NOT with SMN...it is with the CHIGOES THEMSELVES. The concern is that SE is going to go after SMN, and not the REAL root of the problem.

I dunno why you and I are the only ones who see that.

And to SE.. I'm not going to report anyone for this. It's not a problem.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

I suddenly feel like doing this while not AFK so they cant' complain.

[Yinnyth]

TLDR: The problem is NOT with SMN...it is with the CHIGOES THEMSELVES. The concern is that SE is going to go after SMN, and not the REAL root of the problem.

I've been holding back this comment for a while, but I just can't resist any longer. "The problem is NOT with sexual offenders... it is with the VICTIMS THEMSELVES. They should stop being so darned attractive."

Now, you are correct that SMN is not the problem, and that SMN should not be changed to prevent absentee play. But white-washing all creatures so they're all exactly the same as one another and none of them are more desirable than others? That's not the solution either.

Yes, any job can sit in the bushes and camp chigoes, and that's perfectly ok. If they kill stuff while afk, that's not ok. No matter what job they're on, that's breaking the terms of service.

[RAIST]

I've been holding back this comment for a while, but I just can't resist any longer. "The problem is NOT with sexual offenders... it is with the VICTIMS THEMSELVES. They should stop being so darned attractive."

Now, you are correct that SMN is not the problem, and that SMN should not be changed to prevent absentee play. But white-washing all creatures so they're all exactly the same as one another and none of them are more desirable than others? That's not the solution either.

Yes, any job can sit in the bushes and camp chigoes, and that's perfectly ok. If they kill stuff while afk, that's not ok. No matter what job they're on, that's breaking the terms of service.

one problem though....they don't appear to have any problem with people participating in afk game play. Been to any Abyssea or Gov Book Burns lately?

what they are taking issue with is the monopolization of mobs by the afk farming. And why are they afk farming these mobs? Certainly not for the paultry xp-----it's for the drops. Thus, they need to do something to remove the incentive for the players to be farming them.

My point is simply that.....ANY JOB could be monopolizing these mobs in one fashion or another. The incentive to do so with these particular mobs is how easy it is to farm them for drops. There is an easy mechanic that can be implemented specifically for these mobs to remedy that situation. That is all that needs to be done---focus on the specific problem at hand, which lies in the design of the chigoe and not any other monster or job. It is an issue SPECIFIC TO CHIGOES, and thus they need to focus specifically on the chigoes.

[Bulrogg]

Are you sure it the drops, or the completion of magian trials while AFK; perhaps a combination of the two?

What ever the offense, why the hoopla? If you're not guilty of it, no need to cry here about it. And if you are guilty of it.... a wag of the finger and a tsk-tsk to you.

[SpankWustler]

I don't see why this warrants a change to either Summoner or Chigoes. I don't see why it warrants anything other some guy at SE doing stuff to people who can't keep half-an-eye on Final Fantasy XI while doing other stuff, now that it's known people will be punished if reported.

This is sometimes a problem on some servers rather than a universal tactic, it's one really damn specific problem but tangled up in much larger mechanics, anyone inconvenienced by the activity is likely to report it, and the activity is related to playing Final Fantasy XI while not playing Final Fantasy XI which is something SE has staff to handle. The solution seems obvious.

People who want a 0% chance of being punished for this activity should keep one eye on Final Fantasy XI while they're studying the modern neural chemistry of people engulfed in flames or making four gallons of crayfish gumbo or perusing the internet for images of people covering their naked bodies in canned baked beans or reading erotic Avengers fanfiction (Tony Stark/Hulk) or even doing something somebody might actually do.

That's how it's been since the dawn of playing Final Fantasy XI while not playing Final Fantasy XI, it was pretty well accepted when population was dense enough for there to be a danger of being reported for what and not and even whatnot, and I don't think the lack of third-party stuff in this situation changes much.
Yes, the Hulk is on bottom.

[Yinnyth]

one problem though....they don't appear to have any problem with people participating in afk game play. Been to any Abyssea or Gov Book Burns lately?

If someone who is at their keyboard kills a chigoe, and someone who is afk gets the geode from that kill, it is not absentee play because a player who was at keyboard did the work. Same thing in exp alliances- if the person doing the work is at their keyboard, it's not absentee play, and it's not against the rules. If someone who is afk kills a chigoe, that's absentee play, and that's what the GMs are attempting to discourage.

Your logic for this sounds completely unreasonable to me. They're trying to deal with people who are breaking the rules. Your claim is that the problem isn't that people are willing to break the rules, the problem is that breaking the rules is too enticing.

People flee hack in neo Nyzul. What's your solution for that? Make Nyzul so hard that even when you cheat you stand no chance of reaching floor 100? Sure, that'll keep the cheaters away, but it'll also keep away all the people who play by the rules. The same thing goes for "fixing" chigoes. Yeah, it'd keep absentee players away if you made chigoes too hard to kill with an afk smn, but it'd also screw over everyone who hasn't broken rules.

[RAIST]

If someone who is at their keyboard kills a chigoe, and someone who is afk gets the geode from that kill, it is not absentee play because a player who was at keyboard did the work. Same thing in exp alliances- if the person doing the work is at their keyboard, it's not absentee play, and it's not against the rules. If someone who is afk kills a chigoe, that's absentee play, and that's what the GMs are attempting to discourage.

Your logic for this sounds completely unreasonable to me. They're trying to deal with people who are breaking the rules. Your claim is that the problem isn't that people are willing to break the rules, the problem is that breaking the rules is too enticing.

People flee hack in neo Nyzul. What's your solution for that? Make Nyzul so hard that even when you cheat you stand no chance of reaching floor 100? Sure, that'll keep the cheaters away, but it'll also keep away all the people who play by the rules. The same thing goes for "fixing" chigoes. Yeah, it'd keep absentee players away if you made chigoes too hard to kill with an afk smn, but it'd also screw over everyone who hasn't broken rules.

Don't think you even grasped what I meant about Abyssea and GoV. People are NOT AT THEIR KEYBOARDS AND LEVELING TO 99. If you don't see that as absentee play.... /facepalm.

And we aren't talking about making chigoes harder to kill. IDK where you are drawing that from. What we have been talking about is not making the drops from them such a "gimme".

Highly doubt it it is about people completing SMN trials while AFK. There is only one trial where this would be a real benefit--300 kills in the OAT and DA staff lines. The other Staff trials that would take a chigoe kill have requirements that would greatly reduce the benefits to doing this. The only reasonable reason to do this for a trial would be to get credit for someone in party.

And it's highly unlikely they would be doing it for the experience points.

So, what incentive is left? What they have on their drop list. Restrict this to the point where it's not fruitful to do it while afk with a pet, and you take away the reason for them to afk kill them. Plain and simple. If they have to interact during the fight, then they are no longer afk farming them unless they are running a bot to do it--then it becomes a whole different issue completely. Even then, they could still just as easily be monopolized afterwards if this were the only remedy. These things are very easy to kill, repop in line with the geode drop rates, etc. They are simply a highly attractive target for farming geodes, no matter how you are doing it.

So, even if they do what many are concerned about (nerfing SMN specifically), the problem doesn't go away--it may simply just get transferred to another job monopolizing the spawn points. Then what? They've screwed over one job because of it, and the problem still persists.

Thus, the logical solution is to do something about the nature of the mob and/or it's reward conditions.

[Yinnyth]

And we aren't talking about making chigoes harder to kill. IDK where you are drawing that from.

...

Thus, the logical solution is to do something about the nature of the mob and/or it's reward conditions.

You made one post, reply #49 suggesting no loot or exp on chigoes if they get crit-killed. The rest are ambiguous statements that something needs to be changed about chigoes which I took to mean that you think chigoes should be made tougher. For that, I apologize. But changing their drop dynamics is still a change to them which punishes legimate players as well as the people who are engaging in absentee play. And as such I must oppose it as a matter of principle.

I don't think chigoes being a better source of geodes than other mobs is a design problem anymore than beetles being a good source of beetle jaws is a problem. To some extent, I agree that SMNs doing afk kills on chigoes is a relatively minor issue, but if something needs fixing, it's the speeders, not a hardcap on the speed cars can go.


And as far as the definition of "absentee play" goes, I draw the line at "character creating profit while associated player is not controlling said character". Charity doesn't count, because some other player is doing the work. That's leeching. Unethical, but not against the rules. Apparantly SE seems to agree. You're welcome to your own definition, but then how would you enforce your definition? Would you really ban leechers from the game?

[RAIST]

You made one post, reply #49 suggesting no loot or exp on chigoes if they get crit-killed. The rest are ambiguous statements that something needs to be changed about chigoes which I took to mean that you think chigoes should be made tougher. For that, I apologize. But changing their drop dynamics is still a change to them which punishes legimate players as well as the people who are engaging in absentee play. And as such I must oppose it as a matter of principle.

I don't think chigoes being a better source of geodes than other mobs is a design problem anymore than beetles being a good source of beetle jaws is a problem. To some extent, I agree that SMNs doing afk kills on chigoes is a relatively minor issue, but if something needs fixing, it's the speeders, not a hardcap on the speed cars can go.


And as far as the definition of "absentee play" goes, I draw the line at "character creating profit while associated player is not controlling said character". Charity doesn't count, because some other player is doing the work. That's leeching. Unethical, but not against the rules. Apparantly SE seems to agree. You're welcome to your own definition, but then how would you enforce your definition? Would you really ban leechers from the game?

That's just it, the TOU is actually pretty clear on these issues, but they are not enforced rigidly, thus a lot of things happen that shouldn't. Technically, a lot goes on in this game that should not be allowed, but SE lets it slide either because it's considered trivial or not worth the resources to pursue it. SMN letting their pet auto engage and kill a mob without the player drawing their weapon is, in a way, by design. To go after specifically SMN for doing this kinda falls in the category of being a serious WTF moment if they were to take away a very key dynamic to the job.

If they are REALLY concerned about this action specifically on these chigoes, then they should be looking into WHY the focus was put on the chigoes and not any other mob they could choose to do this on. The point here is, they are not doing it in Kuftal, Gustav, Pashow [S], etc--where there are lower level mobs an avatar is perfectly capable of soloing with no effort from the SMN, and weather pops frequently. There are certain characteristics to letting their pets kill chigoes that make them more attractive than crabs, worms, spiders, etc. There are, however, such specific targets in other zones that are indeeed heavily farmed by others on various jobs for the purpose of getting geodes, sometimes to the point that those mobs are no longer a viable target for people to use for trials. It is specifically these chigoes and this specific zone that have become a problem because it is so easy to get a very high demand item off them. It just so happens that it is easier to do it on SMN--just like other mobs may be easier to manage on melee/nuking jobs in other areas.

Other jobs could farm these chigoes in just as high a volume (probly even HIGHER volume), but they would have to actively engage the chigoes to kill them. This creates the monopolization problem that gets in the way of other players ability to participate in certain aspects of the game (trials, etc.). It's not the fact that SMN are taking over the camps--it is that SOMEONE is taking over the camps. Whether it is BLU, THF, RDM, WAR....or SMN. The camps are being monopolized and preventing others from being able to claim them.

Lets look at another mob that had a similar thing happen in recent history. Iron Giants and other NM's were getting pinned in such a way as to exploit elevation in the landscapes to avoid taking damage. This allowed certain jobs to kill them from a safe distance or otherwise out of harms way. They didn't choose to go after the jobs that were heavily exploiting this. Instead, they tweaked how landscape physics affect damage dealing. A similar situation is occuring here. SMN sitting on these camps is the symptom and not the cause of the problem. The problem is how easy it is to mass farm particular items off a specific target due solely to the very nature of how that monster is designed.

Before this announcement was made, a small percentage of players (compared to after the announcement) were likely heavily farming these guys. Now it has been shown how potentially profitable it could be to go after these things. Who's to say they won't now be targetted heavily by THF, BLU, WAR, RDM......then the problem is not a SMN specific problem then, is it? What is the common entity in such a scenario? That's right...the monster being farmed. It all comes back to how attractive the target is. THAT is what needs to be focused on.

[Camiie]

Are you sure it the drops, or the completion of magian trials while AFK; perhaps a combination of the two?

What ever the offense, why the hoopla? If you're not guilty of it, no need to cry here about it. And if you are guilty of it.... a wag of the finger and a tsk-tsk to you.

I just don't want to see SMN "adjusted" because of this. I don't camp chigoes and I don't really care if people do or do not.

I think people are doing this to farm stacks of blood, but I'm not completely sure.

I still think all that needs to happen, if anything, is to "randomize" or expand the spawn areas for each chigoe instead of basing the spawns solely around the bushes. That way people couldn't just stand in one spot to claim them. That's the issue. The spawn points are clearly marked and extremely small. They may as well have put up "Chigoes Spawn Here" signs instead of bushes.

They don't have to adjust the loot pools or remove the mobs. They just have to have them spawn more randomly around the area like the other mobs do.

[Yinnyth]

Before this announcement was made, a small percentage of players (compared to after the announcement) were likely heavily farming these guys. Now it has been shown how potentially profitable it could be to go after these things. Who's to say they won't now be targetted heavily by THF, BLU, WAR, RDM......then the problem is not a SMN specific problem then, is it? What is the common entity in such a scenario? That's right...the monster being farmed. It all comes back to how attractive the target is. THAT is what needs to be focused on.

I think this is the biggest part we differ on, honestly. I think chigoes are fine the way they are. You seem to think this is a good way to kill 2 birds with one stone. I can respect that, but I still disagree. My opinion is that chigoes aren't broke, and if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just like how I believe SMN pets auto-attacking isn't broke. If you want to stop cheating, catch cheaters. Don't nerf.

Even if people didn't bot (I'm using the term more loosely than I should, I know) the chigoes, do you still think they should be nerfed? If some other enemy with attractive loot (let's say lynxes for lynx meat) was getting botted, do you think that creature should be nerfed?

[Camiie]

I think this is the biggest part we differ on, honestly. I think chigoes are fine the way they are. You seem to think this is a good way to kill 2 birds with one stone. I can respect that, but I still disagree. My opinion is that chigoes aren't broke, and if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just like how I believe SMN pets auto-attacking isn't broke. If you want to stop cheating, catch cheaters. Don't nerf.

That's why I was thinking mob placement might be a fair adjustment if one needs to be made at all. I'd be fine if nothing were changed and SE left well enough alone, but they like to meddle where they shouldn't and not meddle where they should.

[RAIST]

I think this is the biggest part we differ on, honestly. I think chigoes are fine the way they are. You seem to think this is a good way to kill 2 birds with one stone. I can respect that, but I still disagree. My opinion is that chigoes aren't broke, and if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just like how I believe SMN pets auto-attacking isn't broke. If you want to stop cheating, catch cheaters. Don't nerf.

Even if people didn't bot (I'm using the term more loosely than I should, I know) the chigoes, do you still think they should be nerfed? If some other enemy with attractive loot (let's say lynxes for lynx meat) was getting botted, do you think that creature should be nerfed?

That's the problem though....SE may not be able to curtail the problem with just the STF. They already have put SMN specifically in their sites, but SMN is not the cause of the problem. They have let the cat out of the bag now, and if SMN was taken out of the equation somehow, another job could just step in and take over the camps again....and the problem still persists.

There are countless mobs that continually get overcamped by people, sometimes by very specific jobs. Ever see BLU's whiskering funguars into extinction in Grauberg [S]? Good luck with your trial there if they won't teamup....and, yet, they never get reported. However, people took the time to report people monopolizing the chigoes, and now SE is expected to do something about it.

That is what has people spooked. If SE is not able to conatin this by throwing resources at it via the STF, they may look to adjust something....the question is, what?

The surest way to do it is to adjust the object of desire. So, you have to look at why the chigoes would be specifically targeted, and adjust there. Whether that is the drop list, the camps, the reward conditions....whatever it is, it is something more specific to the monster/camp than the job killing it.

[Alhanelem]

they may look to adjust something....the question is, what?
The simplest, most logical adjustment would be to change the target for the trial.

[RAIST]

The simplest, most logical adjustment would be to change the target for the trial.

yeah.. that's another thing I'm at odds with over their announcement. Not like chigoes can't be found elsewhere in the game for the purpose of completing trials. Sure, it may not be as optimal elsewhere if you would benefit from Grauberg's weather patterns. But, it's not like you can't work on the trials somewhere else.

But....it got reported, so now SE is poking around now. I just hope they don't overreact like they so often do.

[Alhanelem]

what it all comes down to is a bunch of myriad random factors came together along with the stars and planets aligning to make something that normally isn't much of an issue become one.

[Babekeke]

PPL were doing it to farm wind geodes and Garudites while AFK, due to the frequent wind weather in the zone and ease of killing chigoes.

Please don't tell SE about this, but apparently some people are actually going AFK whilst they leech in FC parties, getting exp, cruor, lights, time and the drops from the treasure....


...shhh! ;p

[SpankWustler]

apparently some people are actually going AFK whilst they leech in FC parties, getting exp, cruor, lights, time and the drops from the treasure....

http://www.thefreefinancialadvisor.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/gauri_gasp.jpg

[Yinnyth]

That's the problem though....SE may not be able to curtail the problem with just the STF.

This is another point you and I differ on, apprantly. I believe it's better to kick the balls of 1% of all criminals than to kick the balls of all people.

If chigoes are attractive, any player can profit off that, not just afk players. Attempting to ban cheaters is better than successfully nerfing chigoes for ALL players.

"Well, 51% of people who did Nyzul were using cheater tools, so we're shutting down Nyzul for 100% of people." I'm sorry for beating the dead horse on Nyzul, but it's the only other thing I can think of where people consistantly cheat.

[hiko]

Don't think you even grasped what I meant about Abyssea and GoV. People are NOT AT THEIR KEYBOARDS AND LEVELING TO 99. If you don't see that as absentee play.... /facepalm.
it's not absentee play because they interact with nothing in game.
The cleaver IS playing.

smn case: NOBODY is playing but mob are killed

[RAIST]

This is another point you and I differ on, apprantly. I believe it's better to kick the balls of 1% of all criminals than to kick the balls of all people.

If chigoes are attractive, any player can profit off that, not just afk players. Attempting to ban cheaters is better than successfully nerfing chigoes for ALL players.

"Well, 51% of people who did Nyzul were using cheater tools, so we're shutting down Nyzul for 100% of people." I'm sorry for beating the dead horse on Nyzul, but it's the only other thing I can think of where people consistantly cheat.

You are in a way reinforcing some important points. You call them cheating. Why are they cheating? Is it because they are doing nothing to earn their rewards while AFK? That applies to afk leechers in abyssea as well. Even worse, there are people charging gil to allow them to afk leech. Yet, there are some defending the abyssea activity when they are exploiting game design in a very similar fashion. If one is cheating by advancing with no effort, than so are the others. One is just more direct than the other--but at their core, they are both absentee play. If you want to get really loose with it, the same could be applied to afk bazaars--they are parked in an area and gaining rewards for doing nothing. It all depends on how loosely or rigidly you want to apply absentee rules to each situation.

Again, the issue always comes back to the monopolization factor. If spawns were still being left available for others to use, then there wouldn't be an issue--it would have never been reported. That's why you don't see them making announcements about people who are essentially controlling other camps--there is usually something left for others to work with, or there is simply somewhere else they can go. As it was though, all spawns in this one area were being controlled by a small group of people.

This situation could have been happening with any job, not just SMN. It happened because the opportunity existed for high rewards with minimal (or no) effort involved. So long as that opportunity exists and people wish to take advantage of it, there will be a potential problem that the STF will have to continually monitor. Depending on whether it persists as a problem and to what degree they have to keep throwing resources at it to contain it--SE may decide to take more aggressive action and recode something. That is what is under fire--whether SE is going to attack just SMN, or do something to prevent any other job from exploiting these targets. So yes, if SE is going to take more aggressive action and actually alter game code, then it needs to be something that indeed DOES affect everyone that may want to explooit these camps. Otherwise you may not be fixing the problem, but just be transferring it to another group of players.

[RAIST]

it's not absentee play because they interact with nothing in game.
The cleaver IS playing.

smn case: NOBODY is playing but mob are killed

Think you may be kinda countering your own argument there.

Cleaver does the killing with no action taken by an afk player---afk player receives rewards for doing nothing.

Avatar does the killing with no action taken by an afk player---afk player receives rewards for doing nothing.

In one scenario, a different player is actively doing the killing while in the other it is the player's pet.

In both scenarios, the afk player is still doing nothing and getting rewarded. It's like pronouncing Pecan as either Pea-can or Pea-kahn...both refer to the same nut. But does the afk leecher get reported? No, because the absentee play in this scenario is generally accepted by everyone, probably in large part because they want to take advantage of it too. however, in this particular incident, the activity was locking people out---not because they were afk, but because they had siezed control of all the camps.

So, you see, the problem is not so much the absenteeism---it is more with the actions of a handful of players taking over an area and locking others out from participation. This is not the case in the Cleave party--the alliance/party agrees on the terms, some in fact may have even paid for the opportunity to leech. AFK play has been pretty much accepted now because of the whole abyssea/GoV/FoV situation--but if you are running an entire area and preventing others from advancing a trial, then the call goes out "Houston, we have a problem...".

Thus, this behavior was caught by SE and flagged as unacceptable because they were monopolizing camps people wanted for their own purpose. Otherwise, this likely would have never been reported. It wasn't because of SMN auto-attack, nor AFK play. The camps are being taken over because of specific aspects of the mobs at those camps, and preventing others from using them. Were it not for them being a good target for trials, probably no one would have cared (unless it was proven to be disrupting the economy or something, but...that's a different animal there).

[Yinnyth]

You are in a way reinforcing some important points. You call them cheating. Why are they cheating? Is it because they are doing nothing to earn their rewards while AFK?
No, it's because what they're doing is against the user agreement, under what was formerly the absentee play clause, but is now the botting and cheating clause which is frustratingly vague.

That applies to afk leechers in abyssea as well. No, it doesn't, because leeching isn't against the rules. Not yet anyways, but SE is allowed to interpret the rules any way they see fit. They started going after afk SMNs killing chigoes, so that's definately against their rules. They have yet to ban a single leecher.

Yet, there are some defending the abyssea activity when they are exploiting game design in a very similar fashion. If one is cheating by advancing with no effort, than so are the others.They aren't advancing with no effort. True, they don't put any effort into it themselves, but someone else is putting forth the effort to level these people. The exp is a gift or a trade. The rules are vague enough that you could interpret them to mean that leeching is a cheat, yes. But since SE does the banning, their interpretation is more important than ours.

[Yinnyth]

Think you may be kinda countering your own argument there.

Cleaver does the killing with no action taken by an afk player---afk player receives rewards for doing nothing.

Avatar does the killing with no action taken by an afk player---afk player receives rewards for doing nothing.

Oh, now it all makes sense. You think an avatar is the same as a player who is currently at their keyboard. You think that if it's ok for one player to do work and to share the spoils of their work with afk people, then it's ok for an avatar to do the same.

Pets are an extension of your character. If you're afk, your pet is afk. Yes, SMN pets act different than other pets because they automatically attempt to defend you from aggro. This should not cause a problem with absentee play because all players are capable of seeking a safe place to afk, or to log out.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Give up Raist, they've all lost it.

[Babekeke]

the activity was locking people out---not because they were afk, but because they had siezed control of all the camps.

If you can't out-claim someone who's AFK, you need to find a new game to play.

[Llana_Virren]

In a general response, let me put it this way:

1. SE's definition of "AFK gameplay" as I understand it, is when non-active player(s) is/are performing an action(s) automatically (without direct input by a player), which result in obtaining some sort of reward, to include EXP, skill, or items.

By this meaning, if you are in a party and you go AFK, you are performing no action, therefore, you are not participating in AFK gameplay.

Now, the idea that "being AFK and earning EXP is cheating" is scary because if you have to WC and your party decides to pull another mob anyway, you have now become a cheater!

So, the first problem with this interpretation is "what measuring standard can you apply to determine what constitutes being AFK versus cheating?"

2. When a single player is AFK, the player is incapable of performing an action. This should apply to all jobs equally, however in the case of SMNs, the pet is capable of engaging a target on its own. Because a pet is not a player, the SMN is now able to earn EXP, Cruor and/or items "automatically" without actually participating in the game. This is not the case in a leech party, where at least one member of the party has to take action.

Of course, if it's OK for SMN's to "auto-kill", what happens when you have an alliance of SMN's leeching while AFK? Is this likely... probably not. But it does throw a wrench in the argument for both sides.

Ultimately, because FFXI is an MMO, there will always be competition for everything. This isn't FFI~X-2, FFXIII, or FFXIII-2, where you can run around and kill everything you see at will. Or, as a best example, FFXII, where you can auto-leech in the crypt using the "rules."

FFXI will be a player-versus-player battle for gear and NMs, and it should be. The problem here isn't that SMNs can auto-attack while AFK; the issue is that "key monsters" (which includes normal monsters needed for quests) are being claimed by AFK players, which is disrupting play for "active" players.

This is not an issue in leech parties, as they typically camp in undesired camps and fight overlooked mobs; there is no disruption.

Once there is a disruption, however, SE will look into it, just as they are now with SMN.

Moral of the story: stay under the radar.

[Kristal]

Give up Raist, they've all lost it.

Or do we?
Can you put forth arguments in defense of "afk SMN farming of chigoes" that can stand on their own?
All I've seen so far is diversionary tactics attempting to shift focus to other (non-)issues.

[Sarick]

PPL were doing it to farm wind geodes and Garudites while AFK, due to the frequent wind weather in the zone and ease of killing chigoes.

The GM's don't care about this either way, no one reports these guys it's not a big deal. There're people farming these zones with 3rd party automated tools already while totally AFK. What makes this horrible is they take action on in game features but, if players are abusing away farming by other means it's totally ignored.

What is SE jailing these people for when they created the design issue in the first place? It's totally backward thinking on their part. They're punishing players for features that've been in the game since snm was introduced yet, they sit back and ignore everything else. This is just ironic.

[Llana_Virren]

It's totally backward thinking on their part. They're punishing players for features that have been in the game.....

There are a lot of things that have been "in the game" as a feature, or intentional design, and those designs have been manipulated.

The key word for everyone arguing about the "irony" is disruption. The SMN auto-attack feature was disrupting gameplay for others. SE is not punishing anyone for using job features as they were designed, but rather for intentionally disrupting gameplay for others by claiming key monsters while AFK.

I swear, some of you guys argue about this stuff and suggest that you've been playing FFXI your entire life, yet you're totally ignorant to the actual issues at hand, and you want to blame "big bad SE" for not letting you do whatever you want. Of course, if you can't be happy, then "damn those cheaters!" who found a way to get what they want without disrupting gameplay for others....

[Yinnyth]

The GM's don't care about this either way, no one reports these guys it's not a big deal. There're people farming these zones with 3rd party automated tools already while totally AFK. What makes this horrible is they take action on in game features but, if players are abusing away farming by other means it's totally ignored.

They take action against the real bots as well as the smn bots. It's just that because pets auto-attack stuff, and because this has become widespread, merely TAKING action is no longer enough. They need to take action and say "Hey guys, I know it's using ingame features, but absentee play still isn't ok by our rules. So knock it off and tell us if you see someone doing this." It should go without saying that real bots are bad too. Would you feel better if they made a post saying "Oh, by the way... botting? Still bad. We'll still ban you for that."


It's totally backward thinking on their part. They're punishing players for features that've been in the game since snm was introduced yet

Your car (I'm assuming you have one, if I'm wrong, please just pretend along with me) could probably go 100 mph through a school zone. It's a design feature. Doesn't mean it's legal or a good idea. Kitchen cookware could be used to remove various pieces of your neighbor's body. Again, design feature but illegal and bad idea. Using nothing but ingame features, I could trick various NMs in various zones into attacking and killing hapless newbs. Against the rules, and for good reason.

If they made SMN botting impossible without using an actual bot, they'd have to prevent SMN pets from auto-defending their master. Again, BAD IDEA.

[Llana_Virren]

Your car (I'm assuming you have one, if I'm wrong, please just pretend along with me) could probably go 100 mph through a school zone. It's a design feature. Doesn't mean it's legal or a good idea.

Woah, hold on now... how else are we supposed to skill up Tarutaru evasion?

[Sarick]

Your car (I'm assuming you have one, if I'm wrong, please just pretend along with me) could probably go 100 mph through a school zone. It's a design feature. Doesn't mean it's legal or a good idea. Kitchen cookware could be used to remove various pieces of your neighbor's body. Again, design feature but illegal and bad idea. Using nothing but ingame features, I could trick various NMs in various zones into attacking and killing hapless newbs. Against the rules, and for good reason.

With the car feature you make a choice to push the peddle to the floor to exceed the speed limit. Pressing the gas peddle is a conscious choice. With the summoner you just call the pet go AFK and "THE GAME" pet decides to defend you. The game automates the attacks because the game has the pet auto attack. It's more like using cruse control on the highway. You push one button (summon pet) then sit back and let the car (pet) manage the gas peddle (aggro).

Also, pulling NM to MPK people is intent on greefing others. If you're trying to escape a NM and accidentally happen to accidentally die running etc. it's not the same.

I don't agree that they should be allowed to do this. I do think it's stupid that they ban people for this when there are other bigger issues they DO ignore. Seriously, If it's broken then SE should fix it.

[Llana_Virren]

With the car feature ... pressing the gas peddle is a conscious choice. With the summoner you just ... go AFK. The game automates the attacks because the game has the pet auto attack. It's more like using cruse control on the highway ... you push one button

So you're still missing the point. Summoning your avatar and then going AFK is a chosen act.
Pressing on the gas is a chosen act.
Pressing a button is a chosen act.

If you can't see that using "summon avatar" and going AFK doesn't fit in the same category as somone who uses an infinite-loop macro by pressing "one button" ... then this whole issue is lost on you.

Frankly, I could care less. The issue is not that the avatar is auto-attacking . The issue is that the SMN is deliberately putting himself in a position where abusing that feature allows him to auto-claim monsters without actively playing the game.

There is a difference between using a feature, and abusing it. These Summoners were abusing it, which brought forth the undesirable wrath of SE.

Again, you're using the argument that "the game allows it, so it should be ok" but the game also allows players to leech EXP, which was something Duzell pointed out earlier.

The difference is that the prior interfered with other players while the latter does not.

[Yinnyth]

With the car feature you make a choice to push the peddle to the floor to exceed the speed limit. Pressing the gas peddle is a conscious choice. With the summoner you just call the pet go AFK and "THE GAME" pet decides to defend you.
And then you happen to go afk in the same spot day after day. You happen to get a stack of geodes in a week, and happen to sell them on the AH for a regal crapload (3.7x as large as a normal crapload (it's metric)) of gil, and happen to go back to going afk in the same spot some more. That's why this is being handled by the STF and not just the GMs. They're being more careful than they should be about this so they only get repeat offenders.

Almost no one goes afk where they'll get aggro unless they're in a HUGE hurry (house burning down), or they're botting. If you're in a HUGE hurry, you probably won't do it more than once in the same area.

If you want to stay completely safe though, follow this basic rule: If you wouldn't afk there without a pet, don't afk there with a pet. How many people get killed by going afk and getting chigoe aggro in Grauberg_S? In the last year, I'd say it's lower than 0.000000001% of the population of the game. So if you banned 100% of people who couldn't respond to a tell by a GM for 10 minutes while their pet kills chigoes, you would only wrongly ban about one millionth of a person.


Also, pulling NM to MPK people is intent on greefing others. If you're trying to escape a NM and accidentally happen to accidentally die running etc. it's not the same.
Also, changing your job to SMN, going out to Grauberg_S, finding an open chigoe spot, summoning your avatar and going afk at that location for 12 hours is intent on engaging in absentee play. Both are against the rules. The tricky part is proving intent.

I find it strange how you think GMs would search for intent when it comes to MPK, but would completely skip that step when it comes to botting.


I don't agree that they should be allowed to do this. I do think it's stupid that they ban people for this when there are other bigger issues they DO ignore. Seriously, If it's broken then SE should fix it.

"Bigger issues" is subjective, but I'm willing to listen. Which issues should the STF and GMs be focusing on?

[Sarick]

So you're still missing the point. Summoning your avatar and then going AFK is a chosen act.
Pressing on the gas is a chosen act.
Pressing a button is a chosen act.

If you can't see that using "summon avatar" and going AFK doesn't fit in the same category as somone who uses an infinite-loop macro by pressing "one button" ... then this whole issue is lost on you.

Frankly, I could care less. The issue is not that the avatar is auto-attacking . The issue is that the SMN is deliberately putting himself in a position where abusing that feature allows him to auto-claim monsters without actively playing the game.

There is a difference between using a feature, and abusing it. These Summoners were abusing it, which brought forth the undesirable wrath of SE.

Again, you're using the argument that "the game allows it, so it should be ok" but the game also allows players to leech EXP, which was something Duzell pointed out earlier.

The difference is that the prior interfered with other players while the latter does not.

You're the one missing the point. I already stated that I don't think it's in the best interest to not FIX this problem. I also pointed out that they have other issues that are clearly being ignored. The previous post about cars breaking laws isn't the same. These players are just standing around and gaining exp/etc while afk because a broken game feature. I did point out that others are doing the same thing using other means and no action is taken.


"auto-claim monsters without actively playing the game".

Their resolve is laughable when they refuse to do anything about other issues that disrupt the game. You know the ones that aren't because broken in game features. These interfere with the economy of hard working players who farm while not afk.

Judging by my quotes being butchered (partial quotes) I don't think half of what I've wrote even equals what people think I wrote.

[Sarick]

"Bigger issues" is subjective, but I'm willing to listen. Which issues should the STF and GMs be focusing on?


I find it strange how you think GMs would search for intent when it comes to MPK, but would completely skip that step when it comes to botting.

Automated message: Thank you for your interest, we're aware this issue exist. A representative can't help you. Please visit www.uselessreportsite.com and spend your valuable time writing something no one will ever read or investigate.

Bot farming and this issue are identical except this one uses in game exploits. I'm just like the others ranting on this topic. I don't care how people play as long as they don't disrupt the game by screwing over others. If I'm busting my arse to get a few avatarites and see people automated flood farming it's no different then what these snm are doing. That's why.

[Yinnyth]

Your hyperlink turns up nothing. I'm sorry, do you have some real complaint about the STF or GMs, you know... maybe something that's rampant in the game that they aren't doing enough to fix? (I'm totally setting you up for an easy one here, I'll be really disappointed if you don't get it.... but I'm also prepared for it...) Or are you just upset that they took away your breeze geode farm?


If I'm busting my arse to get a few avatarites and see people automated flood farming it's no different then what these snm are doing.

You realize, they aren't botting those geodes for their own trials, right? (you also realize those chigoes shouldn't be dropping __ite because they're not a high enough level...?) What's the average playtime of an FFXI player? Let's be generous and say it's 6 hours a day. 6 hours a day they get to bust their arse and sell their spoils for gil. Now let's compare that to the average bot. 24 hours a day they get to relax and do whatever they want and sell 4x the spoils for gil. Do you know what that does to the market?


as they don't disrupt the game by screwing over others
I'm glad you're not one of the people being screwed over by it, but that doesn't mean people AREN'T being screwed over by this very mechanic which you are ambivilent towards. What do you make your gil off of? Now imagine a bot can make 4x as much per day off it as you, and they don't even have to be at their keyboard.

IMO, GMs should hunt down absentee players as much as police hunt down counterfeiters.

[Llana_Virren]

These players are just standing around and gaining exp/etc while afk because a broken game feature. I did point out that others are doing the same thing using other means and no action is taken.

Their resolve is laughable when they refuse to do anything about other issues that disrupt the game. You know the ones that aren't because broken in game features. These interfere with the economy of hard working players who farm while not afk.

Judging by my quotes being butchered (partial quotes) I don't think half of what I've wrote even equals what people think I wrote.

Two things:

1. Your quotes are not being butchered. There's a difference between cutting out monologue to repeat only the core content of a quote (which I have done), and changing what a person said. Your message remained the same in every quotation.

2. You still don't understand. It's not farming while AFK that SE is freaking out about. It is farming specific mobs which other players need to farm, while AFK.

Again, if you look at the last 10 years of FFXI, the only time SE freaks out about this is when there is a significant impact on players (ie. interference). AFK leech parties do not do this (as of now) because no one bothers camping where they do; no one bothers fighting the mobs they do; and no one loses claim on monsters in the area they are fighting.

You may not see a difference, but SE does, and for as long as I've been playing FFXI, I can say that they've got it right on this one.

Oh, and on the touchy subject of leech parties, let me say this:

Just because someone leveled a job without doing leech parties, does not mean that person "had it harder." Unless you can recall the days where "EXP Chain #6!" was more rare than a JP party inviting an NA player, then you don't know what real EXP grinding is. Honestly, with the level cap pushed to 99, and the amount of EXP required, Abyssea became a necessity in order to allow players (both new, and old on a new job) to be able to quickly get to the meat and potatoes of the game.

[Karbuncle]

I can attest to the STF never reading anything sent to them. I've reported one fella on their website on 41 Separate occasions within the span of 3 months for blatant use of Movement Tools, and he's still zipping around the world, in towns, etc etc in plain sight. Also GM'd him a couple times and got the same tired "We don't really get paid enough to care anymore" response.

Honestly just reported this guy to see if the GM's even cared anymore. Turns out they don't. So you're really wasting your time caring about 3PT uses in this game. Unless of course its inside Nyzul Isle.

Frankly I'm surprised they're devoting so much attention to this issue. I mean, I'm aware its more or less abusing game mechanics in order to obtain something more easily, But it just seems like such a small issue. But oh well...

[Sarick]

I can attest to the STF never reading anything sent to them. I've reported one fella on their website on 41 Separate occasions within the span of 3 months for blatant use of Movement Tools, and he's still zipping around the world, in towns, etc etc in plain sight. Also GM'd him a couple times and got the same tired "We don't really get paid enough to care anymore" response.

Honestly just reported this guy to see if the GM's even cared anymore. Turns out they don't. So you're really wasting your time caring about 3PT uses in this game. Unless of course its inside Nyzul Isle.

Frankly I'm surprised they're devoting so much attention to this issue. I mean, I'm aware its more or less abusing game mechanics in order to obtain something more easily, But it just seems like such a small issue. But oh well...

Guys this is what I'm talking about /\ above. I don't care what you think I'm writing because "I DON'T SUPPORT" what you think I'm supporting. Geodes or not when your doing something and a group of the same player comes in like a swarm of locust then go's afk clearing a zone somethings broken. Like I said the situation is laughable that they choose to do something about an in game design issue yet they refuse to investigate RMT like activities. The delusion that anyone cares dictates how clueless some people are.

This is the cold hard reality here. I saw the players ranting about legitimate use of BST in dynamis. I'll tell you what happened beastmaster got treasure hunter nerfed. These issues wouldn't have caught the attention of the developers if people didn't complain. This is why I laugh so hard when players cheer about little things like this. The BST and SNM where a result of player complaints for legitimate in game working as intended features until the developers decided otherwise. They decided otherwise because people complained.

You see where I'm going here? The people who complained got what they wanted because they was upset about how players abused the system. The locust AFK farming players aren't helping the system in fact they're worse then the SNM problem. This is where I've been all along. I'm not defending anyone for for exploiting the design flaw. I'm saying they shouldn't punish players for doing this if they do nothing about a bigger problem. Both the SNM and the AFK farming are in essence the same except one isn't ignored.

As for the broken link, it's working as intended. It's a pun to a bad joke. I thought the url address would've been enough to make that obvious. I guessed wrong because most people arguing with me still don't know where my position is.

For the record I don't care about duel boxers and most third party tool players. I do care if people do stuff that disrupts the gamelay of others. If someone is going to farm gil legitimately fine let there be completion. It's the AFK players competing against active players that sour the milk.

[Yinnyth]

I'm saying they shouldn't punish players for doing this if they do nothing about a bigger problem.
They don't do "nothing" about bigger problems in the game. They're just incompetent when it comes to getting results. You seem to assume they'll somehow be magically more effective at banning cheaters there than they are at banning cheaters elsewhere. How many people have been banned so far for afk chigoe killing?

"Oh, but they could be spending their resources to do a better job at getting the REAL criminals!" Everything has a point of diminishing returns. Sometimes it doesn't matter how many people you have standing around that soup pot. It doesn't make it done faster or taste better to have 500 chefs there.

The same thing could be said about cops: "Why are you catching jaywalkers when there's still unsolved murders?!" Against the law is against the law. True, most people get away with jaywalking. But if a street suddenly became absolutely crowded with people who can't seem to stay on the sidewalk, cops would have to start cracking down on jaywalking, wouldn't they?

Just because some people get away with felonies doesn't mean that cops should completely stop enforcing the law when it comes to misdemeanors.

[Llana_Virren]

Yinnyth you are a sage to these forums.

Also, let's avoid exaggerations: AFK alliances don't "swarm in like locusts and clear a zone" simply because they're AFK... they're in ONE spot! Locusts swarm and move and leech off of everything until nothing's left, and then move on to the next spot... the locust analogy is more accurate ToAU EXP "camps".

But of course, if "I can't do X, no one else should be able to do Y."

[Sarick]

They don't do "nothing" about bigger problems in the game. They're just incompetent when it comes to getting results.

Just because some people get away with felonies doesn't mean that cops should completely stop enforcing the law when it comes to misdemeanors.

That's not even close to right. Little is done unless enough people complain in the first place. You seriously sound like nothings wrong to begin with. It's very obvious if a reasonable effort is made to enforce policies. In this case "If it looks like a duck, smells like a duck and quacks like a duck. Guess what! You guessed it's probably a duck!"

So, don't play oblivious onlooker you know exactly whats going on here.

[Karbuncle]

So, Just a quick show of hands. How many people here even knew this happened or was an issue/occurring before they announced to stop doing it?

[Yinnyth]

So, Just a quick show of hands. How many people here even knew this happened or was an issue/occurring before they announced to stop doing it?

I knew it was happening. I went to the grauberg chigoes for a dagger trial a few months back. Found it strange how there was a SMN at every chigoe pop location, and none of them had trial weapons on. Decided to come back after work. They were still there. Decided that mess wasn't worth my time and went to Bhaflau spiders instead.

Didn't breathe a word of it to anyone but my friend though.

[Sarick]

But of course, if "I can't do X, no one else should be able to do Y."

Taking refuge with sarcasm because your too afraid to say what is really on your mind? Apparently everyone must believe that wrongs aren't wrong if they're done by nice people like ourselves. After all, seeing these players AFK farming proves one important thing. They're intelligent enough to get away with it just too lazy to get up and work for it.

[Sarick]

So, Just a quick show of hands. How many people here even knew this happened or was an issue/occurring before they announced to stop doing it?

I ignored it for the most part until things got strange. You see I try to be friendly to people who are camping with me in the same area. I'll usually send a tell saying "Hello" and ask what they're doing. I normally offer to team up especially, if they're doing a trial or xping a fellow. In these cases the players didn't even acknowledge my presence.

The strage part is for the AFKers farming, they would randomly attack/follow mobs I provoked and disengaged that where close to them.They would then blindly proceed to follow me if I dragging the mob across the zone. The way I see things is anyone with even tiny bit of intelligence could figure out what was going on here. Yinnyth called this incompetence. No!, it's something worse.

[Llana_Virren]

Taking refuge with sarcasm because your too afraid to say what is really on your mind?

I've made it very clear what was on my mind, and have repeated it several times. Sarcasm may be your defensive mechanism, but it's my way of saying "you can't fix stupid, so you might as well blend in."

[Yinnyth]

So, don't play oblivious onlooker you know exactly whats going on here.

No, I really don't. My best guess would be that even if someone did report the afk SMNs to the GMs, that information was lost in beaurocracy and nothing ever came of it. Instead, I'm thinking the STF managed to trace RMT funds all the way back to some afk SMN in grauberg, then noticed a ton of other SMNs doing the same thing. One thing lead to another, big public announcement, overblown community reaction.

[Tamoa]

So, Just a quick show of hands. How many people here even knew this happened or was an issue/occurring before they announced to stop doing it?

Never heard of it happening before SE's announcement, neither has anyone I know in game.


Judging from posts in this thread, 2 people have actually seen it happen, both on Fenrir.

[Kristal]

Frankly I'm surprised they're devoting so much attention to this issue. I mean, I'm aware its more or less abusing game mechanics in order to obtain something more easily, But it just seems like such a small issue. But oh well...

It's a small, but highly visible problem. And the solution is very simple as well: declare it illegal and have the player community deal with detecting the bugbuggers. Nyzul isle cheating is several degrees more severe, but it's also in a far more private setting (you don't affect others directly, for example) for a far shorter time period (30 min vs 24/7) and with a far more difficult solution (multiple ways to cheat, (very) difficult to detect, etc).

[Camiie]

I'd seen it and heard of it happening, but never have done it myself. I still see no reason to care and I won't be playing policewoman unless SE starts cutting me a check.

[Tamoa]

So far it looks Fenrir-specific only.

[Sarick]

I've made it very clear what was on my mind, and have repeated it several times. Sarcasm may be your defensive mechanism, but it's my way of saying "you can't fix stupid, so you might as well blend in."

The issues I see aren't like red stop signs, they're simple guidelines. Unfortunately, any fool can make things more violent or complex than dealing with them. It in my case it takes a bit of genius, and courage to travel in the opposite direction. This is why I think people shouldn't sit around and ignore these issues. Based on the BST and SNM attention the developers gave it's very clear a small group of thoughtful, committed people can change the world. Step back and look at it this way, we can't fix everything ourselves but, nothing reduces the odds of getting things done by ignoring them.

[Sarick]

No, I really don't. My best guess would be that even if someone did report the afk SMNs to the GMs, that information was lost in bureaucracy and nothing ever came of it. Instead, I'm thinking the STF managed to trace RMT funds all the way back to some afk SMN in grauberg, then noticed a ton of other SMNs doing the same thing. One thing lead to another, big public announcement, overblown community reaction.

Very nice response. You seem to think information lost in bureaucracy. This isn't entirely true, the issues that affect players are only noticed if the a small group of dedicated players can convince the developers to do something about it. The automated help desk messages and lack of immediate action support this as fact. To sum things up, when it gets the attention of the developers only then will the they make a big overblown public announcement and take an issue seriously like the SNM AFK farming.

[Sarick]

I'd seen it and heard of it happening, but never have done it myself. I still see no reason to care and I won't be playing policewoman unless SE starts cutting me a check.

Like almost everyone else on this game. I assume they feel the same way until it disrupts their ability to play in a productive community. It's obvious there's no honorable reason to do otherwise unless the above conditions are met.

[Meyi]

I like having my avatars attack whatever is attacking me. One less thing I have to cycle through and command my pet to do.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

I like having my avatars attack whatever is attacking me. One less thing I have to cycle through and command my pet to do.How very un-bst of you.

[Meyi]

How very un-bst of you.

I had BST at 75 for a very long time, back when it was solo only and everyone still hated us. I never liked that my pets would attack whatever was attacking it rather than what I told it to/wanted it to fight.

[Yinnyth]

Very nice response. You seem to think information lost in bureaucracy. This isn't entirely true, the issues that affect players are only noticed if the a small group of dedicated players can convince the developers to do something about it.

You seem to have this all figured out, so you're the one I will ask: How small, and how dedicated? Could I get the devs to make changes to Dynamis if I had 12 people who agreed with me as long as they were dedicated enough? 24? 48? How many people would it require for me to make the changes to the game I want?

It took what...? 1000+ people refusing to update their payment method for over 2 months before SE decided to postpone the deadline? SE has an agenda. If player desires coincide with their agenda, it's more likely that desire will be granted. The further you are from that agenda, the more people you require. Even if 90% of players tell SE to make PUP 2000x stronger than any other job, they'll probably ignore the request thinking that we're all insane. But if 10% of players mention that people are cheating in Nyzul, they'll probably spend resources attempting to stop that (because it coincides with their goals for the game).

Now, what % of players do you think oppose absentee players getting banned? And how strongly do you think SE opposes absentee play? And how easy do you think it is to determine if a person is afk when killing chigoes? Monitoring Grauberg seems like a slam dunk for the STF and GMs to me.