Where's OUR discount?

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/43218

Oh, look: anybody's who's paid for XIV for more than 90 days earns a permanent discount on XIV 2.0 for the life of the game.

Meanwhile, I've been here since January '05 or so, and the only change I've seen in my monthly fee is a slight increase when you switched from monthly to 30-day billing.

It was already insulting to be paying more money for less service while it was a temporary, "until 2.0" situation. And now it will be permanent for just about everyone currently playing XIV?

Where's our goddess damned money's worth!?

[Zumi]

I knew someone was going to post this when they announced that discount thing for FFXIV.

The thing is if you don't feel your getting your moneys worth you have no obligation to keep paying them.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

The thing is if you don't feel your getting your moneys worth you have no obligation to keep paying them.

And that attitude is going to build brand loyalty how?

How long before the Next Shiny Project makes XIV players themselves second-class customers? Will they be expected to hold their breath every time a new FF game is announced, hoping that it won't be an MMO?

[Camiie]

Because they need us paying full price for a game with a skeleton crew and half-arsed support so they can give a discount to the "loyal" FFXIV players.

We're not going to get any discounts or thanked or our names in any credits. We're not seen as loyal valued customers to SE. We're like the current customers of a cable or cell phone provider while the XIV subscribers are the new or returning customers. We don't get special pricing or advanced new features. They've already got us signed up, so we're just lowly trash. We are supposed to feel lucky that we get any support at all on our outdated services and overpriced plans.

[Elexia]

Uh...no. There shouldn't be a discount for FFXI. It's a long established MMORPG. Don't like the price? Stop paying it and move on.


And that attitude is going to build brand loyalty how?

10 years.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

10 years.

It wasn't until details of "Project Rapture" hit the press that the player base even started to seriously consider the idea of "an end to FFXI." There was no indication of a lack of commitment on S-E's part until it was pretty much too late.

Now, going forward, FFXIV players will always have an example of what "The End" will look like when it's their turn. Any whiff of a new game coming down the pipe (coupled with S-E's reputation for openness with information), and the playerbase will have legitimate reason to believe that it's now their turn on the chopping block. They'll get out while the getting's good.

I don't believe anybody seriously worried about the future of XI when XII or even XIII were released. Now, news of XV will breed panic among XIV players, leading to fleeing players dumping gil and accounts on eBay and generally hastening the game's demise outright.

[Dazusu]

You're paying for the game. You're happy with it (you've been here since '05), what's the complaint for? FFXIV sucks. People should be paying less for it.

[Ashido]

Well with the anniversary it would be nice if SE would give those long term players a gift of their choosing . But who am i kidding , we'll get some crappy npc statue , useless item with some glow effect . Actually we'll probably all get a Statue of a GM That glows .

[Alhanelem]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/43218

Oh, look: anybody's who's paid for XIV for more than 90 days earns a permanent discount on XIV 2.0 for the life of the game.

Meanwhile, I've been here since January '05 or so, and the only change I've seen in my monthly fee is a slight increase when you switched from monthly to 30-day billing.

It was already insulting to be paying more money for less service while it was a temporary, "until 2.0" situation. And now it will be permanent for just about everyone currently playing XIV?

Where's our goddess damned money's worth!?
You don't deserve it. You weren't paying for a beta.

Also, there WAS a discount for FFXI if you were also a FFXIV subscriber.


The thing is if you don't feel your getting your moneys worth you have no obligation to keep paying them. This.

The FFXIV legacy campaign is specifically there to reward the players who had the patience to sit through over 1 year of broken game before they finally got their acts together.

You aren't beta testing a broken down mess. You're playing a game that's tried and tested and lasted 10 years.


FFXIV sucks. People should be paying less for it. Please be careful about throwing around statements like that. Fact is, post launch I would have agreed with you. no content, unresponsive UI, tons of missing features, buggy mechanics, etc. But now, most of that is gone- multiple raids, boss battles, jobs, NMs, there's a decent amount of stuff to do now, the new battle mechanics are much better, and whatever isn't better yet will be better in 2.0.

It's fine if you don't like the game, but you could give a decent reason why.


Now, news of XVI haven't heard of any news about XV, but where did you get the idea it's another MMORPG? Why would an MMORPG player be worried about a non-MMO? If you can prove that it is, then of course SE should just shoot themselves now while they still can. But til then, you're full of crap.

[Alhanelem]

Come to think about it, this game "11" is/was kinda in a broken down mess.That's somewhat open to interpretation, but the point is, this isn't a game that horribly crashed and burned thus needing a total rewrite and rebuild to be completely playable and fun. Nor is it a game that (for financial reasons) had to ask players who were effectively still testing a beta (considering how long fees were suspended) to start paying money while they continued to work on fixing stuff that never worked when the old team dumped it in their lap.

[Luvbunny]

The least they can do is to make it a flat fee of $12.95 and limit our mule to 8 per servers, free of charge. Or give us option to pay for 6 months at a time for a low price of $60. That would rejuvenate player base and hopefully bring more people. Other games do it, and do it well. This game pretty much the "i don't give a crap if the world is round", they do what they want, treat their costumers like we don't matter, and pretty much move along in their own pace - hence the spectacular bomb of FF14 at launch, developed with the same attitude. Who knows, maybe they will announce something great for the anniversary - something game changing. Or they will just do the usual crap, giving us a moggle statue with crap stats....

[Dazusu]

The least they can do

Is that your great sense of entitlement shining through? They owe you nothing.

[Luvbunny]

Is that your great sense of entitlement shining through? They owe you nothing.

Yes, it's called customer's appreciation and a business move to retain and attract more player base and lock them in a long term subscription with a good price where the price is so great, you don't even realize you are still subscribing and never bother to even cancel. You minimize the "hurt" and make it less important, this way you can have those people who just keep paying 3-6 months at a time. That's a nice big chunk of money upfront! If 25% of the subscribers pay them 6 months in advance, they can easily predict the upcoming revenue - they know at least 1/4 is a locked in, a guaranteed and it makes it easier to budget for new content development.

[Alhanelem]

The whole discount thing was because they're compensating for people who have been patient while they totally rebuild their game. FFXI has been fully functional, more popular, and fun for years. People were/have been getting their money's worth at the current rate. Why do you suddenly feel like the game isn't worth $12.95 to you just because they decided to give people in a DIFFERENT GAME a cut rate? Either it isn't worth that much to you at all and you should quit, or you're being overly entitled.

If FFXI was in some immediate danger or it was the second year of its life and still significantly dysfunctional, I'd understand such a demand. They did this for FFXIV because they pretty much needed to. FFXI doesn't have that kind of need right now. It still has far more players who have been paying $12.95 for years and have been happy (mostly). The price is conssumerate with what it is worth to people. You release a badly broken game that needs a lot of fixing just to be funcitonal, of course it's not going to be worth as much to people.

Unless you can prove to me that you would of came here posting crying for a discount even if they didn't offer this FFXIV program, you don't have a leg to stand on- Unless you were about to quit anyway, FFXI was still worth your $12.95.

[Elexia]

So the tl;dr is:

Discount makes sense for FFXIV.

Discount makes zero sense for FFXI beyond entitlement. I also found the "skeleton crew" thing funny, since people payed $20 for a beta of Minecraft which had far less people than XI ever has/will have.

[Camiie]

Is that your great sense of entitlement shining through? They owe you nothing.

We owe them nothing either. See I think it's SE that has a sense of entitlement these days. They cut the dev team down to a skeleton crew whose primary job seems to be to make excuses as to why things can't or won't be done. They saddle us with developer leadership that has proven beyond all doubt to be inept and incompetent. They aren't even making a good faith effort anymore. Screwing up on a game is one thing, but the company as a whole isn't even trying with FFXI. It's not just that our loyalty isn't being rewarded, it's that our loyalty is being betrayed. And yet, still here we are loyal as ever hoping as we always do that this time they'll get it right. This time they'll listen. This time they'll wise up. But no while we pay their bills and stay in the run down house desperately in need of repair, they run off and party with the young honeys and lavish them with gifts while we get told to pound sand.

Heck, we've been beta testing this game the entire time it's existed. Even with a beta server the live game still seems like a beta test considering all they myriad ways they still seem to mess things up. They don't even listen to beta server feedback for goodness sake! The least they can do is fix the bugs THEY ALREADY KNOW ABOUT! The very very least... but they don't even do that. It seems to take them days or weeks to even find out how to fix it after it's already live. Hell if I could get away with that at my job and I'm a government employee! The low standards to which we're held are the stuff of legends!

Are we entitled to a discount? No. If, however, SE is making the decision to hand them out to their loyal subscribers then they need to start over here and work their way down.

[Elexia]

We owe them nothing either. See I think it's SE that has a sense of entitlement these days. They cut the dev team down to a skeleton crew whose primary job seems to be to make excuses as to why things can't or won't be done. They saddle us with developer leadership that has proven beyond all doubt to be inept and incompetent. They aren't even making a good faith effort anymore. Screwing up on a game is one thing, but the company as a whole isn't even trying with FFXI.

Explain the last 10 years for me, please? I count numerous expansions and add-ons ontop of normal content additions. Unless we're playing a different FFXI I don't see this argument at all.


It's not just that our loyalty isn't being rewarded

I've never been rewarded in the 10 years I played this game, ever, at all.


it's that our loyalty is being betrayed

I have been betrayed, badly. I mean, I never once wondered "What would it be like to see the Crystal War i hear so much about from NPCs for myself one day?" Damn you SE, why did you betray me with WoTG?


Heck, we've been beta testing this game the entire time it's existed.

You have no idea what a beta is. This is an established game. You can spin things around and call XIV 1.x a beta and 2.0 the official launch, but even that is stretching it.


They don't even listen to beta server feedback for goodness sake

I found otherwise with some of my jobs, actually.


If, however, SE is making the decision to hand them out to their loyal subscribers then they need to start over here and work their way down.

Entitlement. FFXI players are not entitled to a discount. FFXI does not need a discount when it's already successful at the price it's been for the majority of it's service run, and any arguments about why or "it would benefit" is pure entitlement. FFXIV is a special case and they're merely showing thanks for sticking through the OVERHAUL OF A DAMN MMORPG by giving CURRENT, NOT new players a life-time discount. This is the difference with XIV and XI. XI what would the discount be for?

"Uh you play FFXI so....uhm, here's your discount?"

lol.

[Zumi]

FFXIV was awful at launch however its come a long way since then. If you didn't like it back at launch I would definitely give it a try when their free weekend comes up in a couple weeks. Its a lot easier to level and make parties, there's several different raids and bosses to do. You can get some epic looking AF gear now too and the quests were pretty fun to do.

[Alhanelem]

You have no idea what a beta is. This is an established game. You can spin things around and call XIV 1.x a beta and 2.0 the official launch, but even that is stretching it.it pretty much is, considering a second team had to take the game over and basically rebuild the whole thing almost entirely from scratch, while simultaneously developing stuff that was compatible with the old client so that we'd have something to do in the meantime.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Explain the last 10 years for me, please? I count numerous expansions and add-ons ontop of normal content additions. Unless we're playing a different FFXI I don't see this argument at all.

And what have we seen in the last year? One or two mass endgame activities, nothing else. I can count the number of new quests on one hand, and there hasn't been a new mission at all.

On top of that, the lackluster roadmap we've been on is now over. Shall we expect to do nothing but tread water from here on out?


I have been betrayed, badly. I mean, I never once wondered "What would it be like to see the Crystal War i hear so much about from NPCs for myself one day?" Damn you SE, why did you betray me with WoTG?

And how long ago was that? How many months (at $12.95/ea.) have gone by since anything like that happened?

In the time since Wings was wrapped up, XIV players got a whole new game, and will have a second whole new game before S-E even thinks of throwing a $10 add-on our way.


You have no idea what a beta is. This is an established game. You can spin things around and call XIV 1.x a beta and 2.0 the official launch, but even that is stretching it.

Want to obsess over betas? People who play on the test server for XI pay the same $12.95 as everyone else. People who are effectively testing XIV are getting a lifetime discount.


Entitlement. FFXI players are not entitled to a discount.

We are entitled to get our money's worth. We aren't getting half the attention XIV is, yet we're paying a third more.


FFXI does not need a discount when it's already successful at the price it's been for the majority of it's service run,

We pay month by month. What has your $12.95 gotten you in the past month?


and any arguments about why or "it would benefit" is pure entitlement. FFXIV is a special case and they're merely showing thanks for sticking through the OVERHAUL OF A DAMN MMORPG

And we're not? XI players aren't just sticking around, being ignored while S-E throws all their effort at XIV, we're funding it!


This is the difference with XIV and XI. XI what would the discount be for?

A lower subscription fee for a lower service standard.

[Alhanelem]

And we're not? XI players aren't just sticking around, being ignored while S-E throws all their effort at XIV, we're funding it!No, XIV's players are funding it.


A lower subscription fee for a lower service standard. If you're still paying your $12.95, then obviously this supposed lower service standard doesn't bother you. If it does bother you, feel free to speak with your wallet and stop paying.


We are entitled to get our money's worth.Yes, you are. And if you're not getting your money's worth, you're entitled to quit playing or demand better service- not demand a discount just because some other game that performed worse than this one is being discounted or priced lower.

Also, please present the offical square enix budget sheet showing the dollars collected from his game that are being placed in XIV's budget account.

[Elexia]

And how long ago was that? How many months (at $12.95/ea.) have gone by since anything like that happened?

In the time since Wings was wrapped up, XIV players got a whole new game, and will have a second whole new game before S-E even thinks of throwing a $10 add-on our way.

It's been awhile, XIV is a game being overhauled. A Newer MMO being overhauled. FFXI is an established MMO with being this late in life, it's not going to get grand content addtitions. Even EQ's expansions aren't what they used to be because its an OLD game lol.


We are entitled to get our money's worth. We aren't getting half the attention XIV is, yet we're paying a third more.

Let's see...

FFXIV: Being overhauled, in development, barely 2 years old.
FFXI: Not being overhauled, 10 years old, not in development.

I think that about sums it up.


We pay month by month. What has your $12.95 gotten you in the past month?

My $14.95 last month got me continued access to do the content available in FFXI that I haven't completed yet (This is an MMO btw.)


And we're not?

To my knowledge FFXI isn't being overhauled unless they announce it at the Japanese Fanfest or E3.


we're funding it!

I funded it by playing Wakfu. I funded it by buying every other SE product. FFXI isn't XIV's fund source (you also pay monthly or in 3-6 month time periods, by the way.)

So beyond entitlement, XI isn't really deserving of a discount. XI is a VERY old MMO now, hell most MMOs these days don't even last 5 years if you've noticed, most that have are already older MMOs that's been around before the MMO rush.


A lower subscription fee for a lower service standard.

In all actuality, they should have dropped the service fee everytime they didn't release an expansion pack if this is the logic being used. Why did I pay $14.95+ in 2004 before CoP? Why did I in 2005 with NO expansion packs? Why did I in 2007 before WoTG? Why did I in 2008 with no add-ons? They can't just drop the fee just because you're not satisfied with completing 100% of FFXI's content and want more bang for your buck.

...Did you complete 100% of FFXI's content? If so I apologize, you do need a discount for having nothing to do.

[Alhanelem]

Just ignore him. Crap like this comes up whenever any company offers people a discount on anything. You always get someone whining about why they don't get one.

[Luvbunny]

Unless you can prove to me that you would of came here posting crying for a discount even if they didn't offer this FFXIV program, you don't have a leg to stand on- Unless you were about to quit anyway, FFXI was still worth your $12.95.

Do you even read their announcement? They basically giving those people a $9.95 price LOCKED in FOREVER in the lifetime of the game, version 1 or 2 or version 100.... That is the price!! By offering the same price discount to the loyal FFXI paying subscribers they would make nice and get more support. They can even give us option to pay $10 bucks a month if we sign up for a yearly plan or keep the normal rate for people that pays month by month. Basically rewarding those who plan to stick it for the year and offering the same original rate for people who may just play for a couple of months and take a break or quit.

[Alhanelem]

Do you even read their announcement? They basically giving those people a $9.95 price LOCKED in FOREVER in the lifetime of the game, version 1 or 2 or version 100.... That is the price!yeah, annnnd?

What's the problem with this? These people are being rewarded for putting up with the game in its flawed state. You realize how loyal these customers are and are likely to become as a result? Do you also realize how small the game's playerbase is right now? A few years from noew, the vast majority of players will be paying full price. It's just the small number of people patient enough to pay for a defective game that this is directed at.

[Zumi]

On FFXI people seem content to pay the current price. That might change if they saw a mass drop off in subs but so far that hasn't happened. You can get on during a weekend and still see over 3000 people playing FFXI.

[Rosalie]

Also, there WAS a discount for FFXI if you were also a FFXIV subscriber.


What I'd like is just to continue the discount for paying for both ._.; but I don't think that's going to happen.

[Alhanelem]

What I'd like is just to continue the discount for paying for both ._.; but I don't think that's going to happen.

True... this will be the last month (as far as I know) to get that bonus. You pay just a little more than the base sub fee for XI to play both. Nice deal while it lasted. One of SE's big problems is they don't seem to know a dang thing about marketing. I'd probably continue to subscribe to both (due to my current on-again-off-again play with both games) if this remained in effect.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

FFXI is an established MMO with being this late in life, it's not going to get grand content addtitions.

Then why are we still paying like it will?


FFXIV: Being overhauled, in development, barely 2 years old.
FFXI: Not being overhauled, 10 years old, not in development.

Then why are we paying more for a game that isn't in development?


I funded it by buying every other SE product.

You're comparing apples and oranges. Offline games are products, while your subscription here is a service. And as it stands, others are getting more service for less money, and from the same service provider.


XI is a VERY old MMO now

Then why hasn't the subscription fee deprecated?


Why did I pay $14.95+ in 2004 before CoP?

You had an expectation of continued commitment on S-E's part. Today, S-E is instead demonstrating commitment to XIV at the apparent expense of XI. The situation is different, so the price should be different.


Did you complete 100% of FFXI's content?

The goalpost for "100% completion" hasn't significantly moved in a very long time, and there are diminishing returns. Yet the subscription fee itself hasn't diminished.

[Midorikaze]

Then why hasn't the subscription fee deprecated?


Today, S-E is instead demonstrating commitment to XIV at the apparent expense of XI. The situation is different, so the price should be different.


The goalpost for "100% completion" hasn't significantly moved in a very long time, and there are diminishing returns. Yet the subscription fee itself hasn't diminished.

Indeed, after almost 10 years...Why hasn't it? :confused:

[Alhanelem]

Probably, they have lowered it but then passed increased logistical costs on to us thus leaving the price where it is. :p

[Aequis]

XIV doesn't have near the amount of content we do in XI yet. It's also not established and doesn't have the stability of XI. I have played it on and off since October last year and I was an alpha/beta tester also. For a long time it was unplayable without some degree of frustration and things you take for granted in XI (delivery boxes, a real auction house, an actual use for food, explorable landscapes, reraise/sneak/invis) either don't exist, or we're only just getting them. The healer job - Conjurer - didn't have any form or -na spell or Erase / Esuna until they added White mage last month.

A lower subscription cost is the reward for sticking with them throughout all of that and staying an active subscriber. Plus XIV has a better, kinder, more understanding producer, whilst we're just stuck with Tanaka here. Voidwatch sums up pretty much everything I hate about XI right now.

Another fact that is apparent in XIV if you're in a linkshell with people that have played since release is, there isn't much for them to do any more. All their classes are lv50, they've done several crafts to lv50 and they've done most of their AF for the advanced jobs like WHM or BLM (some isn't worth doing over buyable equip). So unless they start over, those numbers on Legacy subscriptions are going to drop off as long-time players quit.

[Dazusu]

We owe them nothing either.

Then stop paying them? It's quite simply really.


Indeed, after almost 10 years...Why hasn't it? :confused:

You think update quality is poor now? Imagine it if we start paying less.

This game needs a serious overhaul, I completely agree. We need an expansion on the scale of ToAU or CoP (WoTG was a letdown for me personally, rehashed zones. It could have been another Abyssea.)

But does anyone really think that incessant whining on the forums is going to achieve it? Crying for a decrease in subscription fee, discounts, and other irrelevant changes? That's not going to motivate the powers that be in SE towers to get anything substantial done. While it's not our job to motivate the team, its our job to tell them (not like children) what it is we want to see. If you're not happy with the game, the best way to get your voice heard is to stop paying them. That's the only language a corporate business understands. Money.

Creating the same threads with the same content week-in, week-out with the same 15-20 people posting their very loud opinion isn't going to help. Infact, I would be willing to wager a bet that such information doesn't routinely get back to the Execs or people in charge anyway.

[Dazusu]

One of SE's big problems is they don't seem to know a dang thing about marketing.

Life-time discount on FFXIV objects to that statement. It made me (and many of my linkshell mates) pay for 3 months yesterday when I read the crying about it in this thread. I don't even have the game installed, and haven't since the month it was released.

[Alhanelem]

Well, it was probably all Yoshi-P's idea. But he's too busy to do marketing for all of SE. :p

[Midorikaze]

Ugh.

Less paid per month should not mean less service. It just might bring people back to the game (not to mention maybe some new players) if it's more worth their money. The playerbase just might grow a little.

FFXI is a great game, but the look has been dated for some time now. Not that it makes the game less great, just that better technology is out there and some of those games are no doubt cheaper than this one. I have never seen a game where updating to at least be on-par with other games is such a far-fetched concept.

Even $9.95 seems fair at this point. Why not just make it an even $10 without the extra freaking nickel taken off. The illusion of seeing $12.95 thinking that it's 12 bucks isn't fooling me. Never did, never will.

Pardon my shortness, I just tire of seeing the less cost = less service argument. It's getting old. :\

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

XIV doesn't have near the amount of content we do in XI yet.

Yes, and it's about the same amount of content XI had last month, and the month before that, and the month before that, and the month before that, ad nauseam. So why still the same price? Are there really that many new players coming into the game?


It's also not established and doesn't have the stability of XI.

"Stable" can also mean "boring," or "stale."

I propose that everyone keeps complaining on this forum about job balance, etc. because there's precious little to distract people from these issues any more. The dev team needs to fix these longstanding and previously minor issues now because there's nothing major left to gloss over the small stuff.


Another fact that is apparent in XIV if you're in a linkshell with people that have played since release is, there isn't much for them to do any more.

Meanwhile, nobody's left in my XI social linkshell because there isn't much for us to do any more, either. The few members that haven't quit outright spend most of their time in an endgame/grind linkshell instead.

[Midorikaze]

Pledging that discount for "the duration of FFXIV's service" is quite bold. And, FFXI has been around for a lot longer yet long-time players don't get to see much appreciation for 9-10 years of patronage compared to FFXIV's 2 years. Sure, there was a total game rebuild but they also got a free-to-play period on top of this Legacy discount.

I just don't understand it.

[Elexia]

I just don't understand it.

Have you done every bit of content FFXI has to offer? No? Then what's the problem? XIV is a game being OVERHAULED and rereleased, life time discount is something for the CURRENT players that NEW players WILL NOT get. It's a "THANK YOU".

Why should FFXI players get a "thank you for playing"...? Your "thank you" is the tons of the content they gave over the span of 10 years lol. This sense of entitlement is amazing.

[RAIST]

Have you done every bit of content FFXI has to offer? No? Then what's the problem? XIV is a game being OVERHAULED and rereleased, life time discount is something for the CURRENT players that NEW players WILL NOT get. It's a "THANK YOU".

Why should FFXI players get a "thank you for playing"...? Your "thank you" is the tons of the content they gave over the span of 10 years lol. This sense of entitlement is amazing.

You may be defeating your argument somewhat. Other games have been around for less time and have even gone free to play either completely or partially (or were F2P from the start) and continued to recieve new content.

The bigger point is the QoS is nowhere near what it once was, and in some aspects continues to decline----and yet, they are still charging the same price as 10 years ago.

[Midorikaze]

10 years is more of a "Legacy" than 2. Plus, FFXIV was free for at least half a year. FFXI players never had such a downtime as FFXIV, granted, but there are those stubborn faithfuls including me, who have stuck around all along. And I'm not "whining" for a price cut. Just saying in the current time compared to 10 years ago, better stuff is out there that is free, and copy-paste content add-ons is just more time sink, which frankly I don't have the free time to sink into.

"Wahhhhh Price Cut NAO, give it" ....Now THAT's whining :cool:

[Camiie]

Why should FFXI players get a "thank you for playing"...? Your "thank you" is the tons of the content they gave over the span of 10 years lol. This sense of entitlement is amazing.

Why should FFXIV players get a thank you? So they paid for a game that turned out to suck. Big whoop. Been there, done that, didn't ever even get a t-shirt. Back in the day you didn't even get an "I'm sorry we'll do better next time." You were just stuck with a bad game.

I don't think anyone here is asking for anything that SE isn't already offering to a portion of their customers, so I don't agree with the entitlement angle. It's more like, "If them why not us?" If you see that entitlement then that's fine. I don't see it that way, and I don't really care if you do or not.

[Tashan]

What is with people on this forum and feeling like their entitled to everything.

Cry less or stop playing.

[Helel]

I find it hilarious that the FFXIV population is so low that they can include all the players' names in the credits. What a great way to promote your game haha.

[Llama]

The current price is $ 9.99 a month. It's just a marketing gimmick. Making their current players think they get a discount, because they know damn well 2.0 ($14.95) is not going to lure in a ton of players. They are trying to get as many people as they can now.
I feel bad for SE maybe in about 2 years they'll realize that FFXI still has higher subscriptions. They should have made and new graphic engine for XI instead.

[Camiie]

Does this announcement mean 2.0 will be out in less than 90 days or can we sign up now for special pricing and pretend to be loyal FFXVI customers?

[Midorikaze]

I feel bad for SE maybe in about 2 years they'll realize that FFXI still has higher subscriptions. They should have made and new graphic engine for XI instead.

Words cannot express how much I agree with this, and how much I wish this happened instead.

Dude, if I could I would shake your hand. :cool:

[Alhanelem]

Why should FFXIV players get a thank you?Because they're among the handful that didn't quit what ended up being an expensive and lengthy beta test? I'd be pretty thankful my game that I spent millions making isn't totally dead if I were SE.

[Ophannus]

IF anything FFXI should be more expensive 12.99 was good 10 years ago but I'm sure operating costs have gone up in 10 years, electric, rent, cost of living, salary etc.

[Ilax]

FFXIV was free for at least half a year.

You mean, they should have pay people to play it, wait i mean BETA test it...

[Anapingofness]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/43218

Oh, look: anybody's who's paid for XIV for more than 90 days earns a permanent discount on XIV 2.0 for the life of the game.

Meanwhile, I've been here since January '05 or so, and the only change I've seen in my monthly fee is a slight increase when you switched from monthly to 30-day billing.

It was already insulting to be paying more money for less service while it was a temporary, "until 2.0" situation. And now it will be permanent for just about everyone currently playing XIV?

Where's our goddess damned money's worth!?

The 90 day perma discount bit is actually a brilliant idea for FFXIV. I see no reason that they cannot include it in FFXI. To be more specific it would be neat if SE did something like the longer you played said game the more of a discount you get. So you could go down to like 10$ after like a year or two or maybe the cap is a 50% discount after a certain number of years.

In all seriousness though, the concept of giving players a perma discount the longer they stay with the game is a really good idea. Also, it's an idea that I haven't seen done in other MMO's.

But I have to agree with the OP. I am more than a bit miffed that FFXIV players get a discount- a permanent one at that when a lot of us have been with FFXI since 2005.
Another thing that annoys me is the lack of a permanent discount or bundle for people who are playing both FFXIV and FFXI.

I'll be honest though. I'm not here to get into a pissing match about discounts. Yeah, I'd like one- so what? My main point is that I want to feel appreciated by SE. What I want is for SE to improve the QoS for FFXI by an astronomical amount. FFXIV can have its discount, I want better service.

I know people will call me entitled and selfish but to be perfectly honest I don't give a rat's ass. I'm paying for their service, it is a choice I made- that much is true but if I'm making the choice to pay to play their games then SE is damned obligated to give something in return for my patronage. It's not about entitlement or selfishness people, it's a simple principle of doing business.

[Yinnyth]

The discount thing is an apology and/or "thank you", and it's a poor idea on their part. Sure, some people might feel special for getting the discount and play for longer than they normally would, but I'm betting just as many people will feel outraged that they don't get the discount (see: this thread) and choose to not play ffxiv when they normally would have.

The discount would be a poor idea for ffxi as well. How much longer would any of you play the game if it cost half as much to play? I thankfully have enough money right now, that a difference that small has no effect on my desire or ability to play.

If you ask "do you want free money?" the natural reaction for most people is "yes". If you say "These guys got free money because they do something very similar to what you do!" the natural reaction for most people is "wtf, why not me?" In this case, it's because you didn't pay enough money to play that game while it was at its crappiest.

[Alhanelem]

There was absolutely nothing wrong with offering the legacy program, other than the spit of bad publicity on the XI forum that isn't even justified.

This is like being miffed that seniors get a discount on coffee at dunkin donuts- It's a reasonable offer with reasonable and good intentions behind it. It's working too- I already know a few people who quit or passed on the game after the horrible launch who are coming back already.


http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/22810-Service-Our-Money-and-YouIf you aren't happy with the current fee in the game's current state, then it would be a lot smarter to simply demand better service, like one person did: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/22810-Service-Our-Money-and-You


I see no reason that they cannot include it in FFXI.They aren't including it because it's not relevant. FFXI isn't a game that just launched and nearly crashed-and-burned before a new development team swooped in to rescue it, letting people play for free in the meantime just to keep them in the game. Should they have made XI free at that time because players of one of their other games were playing free?

[Chamaan]

How does this work with the supposed bundle deal they announced back at game launch where paying for both games gives you a discount on FFXI? It ended up being a flat 20 bucks for both subscriptions. I'd pay for both games if they both only cost me 15 bucks together. It's only two bucks more than what I pay now for a game I like.

[Ilax]

Well from what i heard, XI was buggy as hell when launched too, plus they had no Auction House. How they manage to repeat same mistake twice after a decade of experience? Sorry but there zip no excuse for them, same as all fail concept they keep doing in 11 that everyone hate, and i am sure they are replicating them in 14.

I never play 14 yet, and i bet they got the same "great idea" of making 24~72h pop NM, why? Because is SE... they never listen, they stubborn and ignore past experience. When they think they have a greatest idea, is the best idea no matter what feedback they get from it.

Yes, XI player should totally have discount, i would even say, FREE to play XI if you subscribe XIV. And then, it would be easy for SE to not allow you to logon FFXI at same time you logon FFXIV, or allow it only if you pay full subscription on both: "with a discount or not, no matter for this part."

If they did that from start, everyone would have tested 14 for free and be happy from start to end, no one would have claim the discount for playing the game when it was totally bugged.

What Yinnyth said is also totally true:


If you ask "do you want free money?" the natural reaction for most people is "yes". If you say "These guys got free money because they do something very similar to what you do!" the natural reaction for most people is "wtf, why not me?" In this case, it's because you didn't pay enough money to play that game while it was at its crappiest.

SE need review they marketing strategy because obviously they are totally off track, and not appealing many player in.


They aren't including it because it's not relevant. FFXI isn't a game that just launched and nearly

FFXIV it's not relevant for me, fair game, and i think what people try to say Alhanelem, is they not interest much in 14, and with SE offer "You missed the fail boat, so suck on it" make us just stay even farther from it, and i doubt they would get any new subscriber, like Yinnyth said, and for reason he stated.

Anyway, i could have just say: "Happy to hear you special enough to have discount, GL playing FFXIV, now is time for me to move on."

[Alhanelem]

How does this work with the supposed bundle deal they announced back at game launch where paying for both games gives you a discount on FFXI?That discount was only temporary and next month will be the last chance to receive it. However, FFXIV was already charging $9.99 at the time and it worked just fine.


Well from what i heard, XI was buggy as hell when launched too, plus they had no Auction House.XIV was never planned to have the auction house at all. It's not comparable. In FFXI, it was planned, the auction house buildings already existed, it just didn't get implemented immediately at launch.

In XIV, there still is no auction house, but auction houce-like features have been added to the market system to make it more useable. But the market system was planned from the beginning and was available at launch (but without a search or ability to buy from a central location, it sucked- It has since added these features, and soon the markets of each city will be linked)

[Aequis]

I never play 14 yet, and i bet they got the same "great idea" of making 24~72h pop NM, why? Because is SE... they never listen, they stubborn and ignore past experience.

I'm sorry, but this is just misguided. There's a particular set of people (haven't played XIV, don't follow current news and just speculate that it's trash because of "what they heard") who will take any opportunity to slate the game, without understanding it at all. If you don't know anything about XIV, then the opinion you have about it isn't going to be very well-founded.

There's a free trial coming up soon. Give it a go or listen to feedback from people who try it and see if your opinion changes then. That's all we can ask.


Yes, XI player should totally have discount, i would even say, FREE to play XI if you subscribe XIV. And then, it would be easy for SE to not allow you to logon FFXI at same time you logon FFXIV, or allow it only if you pay full subscription on both: "with a discount or not, no matter for this part."

For all intents and purposes, the games are not even related. They are separate business ventures. Both their names start with "Final Fantasy" but they have separate teams working on them (XIV got rid of Tanaka who now works on XI). There was a promotion between XI and XIV, similar to how Assassin's Creed 2 or Mass Effect 3 has a promotion with Final Fantasy XIII-2.

I don't know. I think the best thing for all concerned on this topic is to just agree to disagree, as there's a clear schism between FFXI-only players and FFXI + FFXIV players that we can't fix.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

there's a clear schism between FFXI-only players and FFXI + FFXIV players

You're assuming that subscribing to both games makes one satisfied with the situation in XI.

[Dragoy]

Does this announcement mean 2.0 will be out in less than 90 days or can we sign up now for special pricing and pretend to be loyal FFXVI customers?
They are being quite unclear (as they like to be I guess) on that, but from what I can gather, as long as you have paid for 90 days (not needed to be paid in a row) between January 6th and the launch of ßeta 2.0, you can still get to be a part of it.

What I have no idea currently is when that launch will be. I have seen some mentions of September, so if that is true, then there's more than enough time yet. I'm thinking of jumping into it myself, even though I doubt I will be playing, but a life-time discount? It is something to ponder upon fer sure.

I'll quote an attempt on clarification (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/43225-FFXIV-Legacy-and-Welcome-back-campaigns?p=652770#post652770) by Bayohne:


Just going to pop in quickly to clarify Legacy member qualification for those that are unsure:

Paying for at least 90 days at any time between January 6, 2012 and the start of 2.0 beta testing is how you qualify to become a Legacy member. You do not need to pay for 90 days in a row to qualify.

Hope that clears that up!

Another one from here (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/43225-FFXIV-Legacy-and-Welcome-back-campaigns?p=657113&viewfull=1#post657113), posted on April 23rd:


Regarding the eligibility period and notification of eligibility
Even if you start FFXIV fresh today, and have 30-days of free time, you'll still be able to qualify for the Legacy pricing. We're planning announcements so that everyone will know exactly when the cut off timing will be. When it comes to "how will we know for sure if we're in?", we're planning to email the email address associated to your Square Enix account sometime in May. You'll also be able to log in and check your status via the Square Enix account management system.

As for FFXI, I actually pay 150€ or so more per year now thanks to the payment changes. The fee could easily be at least 50% of the current if you ask me, and no, I am not happy to pay as much as I do now. I would not be here were it not for one certain friend still remaining in-game. I am honestly hoping a little that she would stop playing so that I could stop, too!

Another thing that would be fun, would be to implement a sort of a free-account option. Much like the free-trial period they have, but not limited by days. However, comparing to many other games that have both free and a premium content, the current free-trial is way over-board when it comes to the restrictions.

But I digress.

In any case, if they will not lower the price for FFXI a lot, or make it free-to-play at least partially so I can still hang around, I will likely not stay for longer than some months to come, or at tops, until the end of this anniversary year. Getting a discount for playing both would definitely be the least they could, or even should do.

I am not jealous of FFXIV getting such treats, as it is understandable to try everything they can to get more players, even for a while. It is not exactly their fault that we are being left to rot in the shadows, lingering on the far-reaches of hope only to be disappointed once more and again, dreading to even peek around the corner any longer...

What!


Oh and wow at the people saying no thanks to a discount, or any other improvements and treats for that matter!
A disgusted, and maybe a little disappointed but not surprised wow.

[Jem]

Am I the only one who thinks the Legacy program for FFXIV is a bad idea for the image of the game from non-current players? 5 dollars cheaper(33% discount) for the same service package because you once payed 30-dollars(9.99x3) for 90-days of a game back in 2012? For a new/returning player post-2.0 that would be a huge turn-off. I'm all for Legacy items like the exclusive chocobo but 60$ dollars cheaper a year vs new players...for forever?

Also slightly unrelated but people use the term "Entitlement" way to much lately. There are all types of entitlement and not all are bad. Everyone has some form of entitlement. For example thinking that your girlfriend shouldn't date other people is a form of entitlement.

[Aequis]

You're assuming that subscribing to both games makes one satisfied with the situation in XI.

I'm not assuming anything. I'm on one side of the situation and that's the side I see things from, thus the opinion I give. Anyone else is free to state their opinions and people are doing so, which is why we're having this discussion.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

I'm not assuming anything. I'm on one side of the situation and that's the side I see things from, thus the opinion I give.


I think the best thing for all concerned on this topic is to just agree to disagree, as there's a clear schism between FFXI-only players and FFXI + FFXIV players that we can't fix.

You assumed that there are two sides to this issue, and that the deciding factor between those two sides is whether or not someone plays XIV alongside XI. You assumed that your personal experiences in playing both XI and XIV extend to the rest of "the side you see things from."

It is quite possible to be a paying subscriber to XIV while still being frustrated with the (complete lack of) direction XI is heading in.

The state of XIV is inconsequential. The importance of XIV here is that it is offered by the exact same service provider as XI, yet provides far better service for its players' subscription dollars.

[Luvbunny]

I doubt they will change anything or even read this post. Their view of FFXI players are someone who they can abuse over and over and neglect since these players will never leave, always come back for more, did not care and seems to enjoy the game no matter what state of service they are getting (or disservice). They already put way too much time and effort in the game, they will not quit, pretty much hooked already. So why they even bother spending resources for these so called zombie players, better use the fund for other new venue such as FF14.

It does not help that FF14 is getting a new director with far better creative vision, and seems to be in touch with what the consumer wants, and completely understand how to create a fun enjoyable game that is far far better than FF11. Too bad his stay at FFXI was brief, but glad that Abyssea was born out of it - one can see the big difference with all the contents post abyssea....

[Elexia]

The state of XIV is inconsequential. The importance of XIV here is that it is offered by the exact same service provider as XI, yet provides far better service for its players' subscription dollars.

FFXIV is also their newer MMO as well as one being overhauled, FFXI is a 10 year old MMO, not being overhauled and for all intents and purposes died in 2009. What is it people aren't getting about this? ITS NOT THAT HARD lol, you also happily play FFXIV..so why are you even complaining >.>

On the plus side:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KC7qcJcmzfQ&feature=player_embedded

Mizuta (and others) are showing a lot of love for that game's music, so it's win win regardless. FFXI is what it is, there's a reason no matter what they do they can never get "back to where they were in 2005" in terms of players, thus why they're focusing on a new entry into this saturated world.

Seriously, if you start FFXI brand new now you will never experience the game for what it used to be because no one wants to do outdated content..only Abyssea and VW (because they have to keep spamming it.)

[Camiie]

They are being quite unclear (as they like to be I guess) on that, but from what I can gather, as long as you have paid for 90 days (not needed to be paid in a row) between January 6th and the launch of ßeta 2.0, you can still get to be a part of it.

I figured I'd give it a try to see what the good side of SE's service and support looks like and see if I could catch the discount.

For those in the US, Gamestop is selling the FFXIV client download for $9.99. You do have to install and use their Gamestop installer to get your download It wasn't clever enough to make any desktop or start menu shortcuts for me, but it does work. I'm not sure if any other vendors are offering deals. Amazon doesn't seem to be at the moment.


What I have no idea currently is when that launch will be. I have seen some mentions of September, so if that is true, then there's more than enough time yet. I'm thinking of jumping into it myself, even though I doubt I will be playing, but a life-time discount? It is something to ponder upon fer sure.

Yeah I guess they caught me with their deal/scam/marketing ploy/whatever lol. I admit I feel a bit guilty going for it, but what the heck. I guess if it turns out too badly I can always go on the XIV forums and make a (TOS compatible) fuss like I do on this one!

[Alhanelem]

According to the timeline when 2.0 was announced, it will reach current players hands in the fall and go to retail at the end of the year (along with PS3 finally)

[Kaisha]

I could just really go for SE dropping the retarded paying-for-mules crap instead of a discount.

Heck, F2P games let you buy character slots and it's a one-off deal. Here we're required to pay $1 monthly per additional character until we cancel it. Almost every other subscription-based MMO lets you make upwards of 10 per server at no extra cost.

[Elexia]

I could just really go for SE dropping the retarded paying-for-mules crap instead of a discount.

Heck, F2P games let you buy character slots and it's a one-off deal. Here we're required to pay $1 monthly per additional character until we cancel it. Almost every other subscription-based MMO lets you make upwards of 10 per server at no extra cost.

Thing is, in pretty much every MMO but a few new ones 1 character = 1 class, so they have to let you have free character slots and let you buy more slots if you need it
.

[Alhanelem]

Thing is, in pretty much every MMO but a few new ones 1 character = 1 class, so they have to let you have free character slots and let you buy more slots if you need it
.
That went out the window with FFXIV now switching to a model where you can have 1 character on each world with the basic account and for a flat additional fee, you can have up to 8 characters on each world.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

FFXIV is also their newer MMO as well as one being overhauled, FFXI is a 10 year old MMO, not being overhauled and for all intents and purposes died in 2009. What is it people aren't getting about this?

Which brings me back to my original post: why is it that XI players are paying the higher price for a dead/dying/etc. game?


you also happily play FFXIV..so why are you even complaining >.>

Because I'm apparently not getting my money's worth with XI.

Let's say you walk into a McDonald's and look at the menu board. Featured prominently is their flagship product, the Big Mac. It has more meat, fancier bun, lots of condiments, and a large marketing push behind it (its own jingle, etc.).

Say it costs $2.

Then, over in a dark corner of the menu board is the unsung product that they built an empire on: a regular hamburger. No cheese, no sesame seeds, just the basics. There's no glitz or glamor, no effort to advertise the heck out of it, everybody knows that McDonald's carries them.

Wouldn't you find it outrageous if it was listed for $3, a higher price than the glitzier Bic Mac?

[Kaisha]

Thing is, in pretty much every MMO but a few new ones 1 character = 1 class, so they have to let you have free character slots and let you buy more slots if you need it
.
The jobs are just a series of bytes within your character profile, that excuse doesn't work with me.

It's just a money grab on their end to charge for additional characters that only take up one megabyte when other MMOs don't. It's further hampered by the never-ending inventory space issues because of said job system, and so most people end up paying the extra $1-2 just for inventory mules, which is a non-issue in other games since you can make plenty of storage characters for crafting and other goods.

[Luvbunny]

They have to give this so called discount for FF14. The game is a total crap fest even with some of the recent updates. It is still very unfriendly, way too confusing, takes too long to do almost anything, and just plain NOT fun at all to play - and yes even now. You basically paying upfront for them to develop and redo the whole thing. I really feel sorry for those people who waste their time and money beta testing for 2 years. But if you yearn for "the good old days" and want to try something "totally different" - go ahead and play it. It's way cheaper and a lot more shiny.

[Seiowan]

The funny thing is no one started pushing for a "discount" until they heard another MMO was getting one. If you really cared so much about paying less for the game, you would have pressed for a cost reduction ages ago. The fact you didn't shows you clearly feel the amount you're currently paying for the game is of adequate value.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

If you really cared so much about paying less for the game, you would have pressed for a cost reduction ages ago. The fact you didn't shows you clearly feel the amount you're currently paying for the game is of adequate value.

Value is relative. This permanent discount gives us something to relate it to.

[Krashport]

The funny thing is no one started pushing for a "discount" until they heard another MMO was getting one. If you really cared so much about paying less for the game, you would have pressed for a cost reduction ages ago. The fact you didn't shows you clearly feel the amount you're currently paying for the game is of adequate value.

Wrong see 10.) I posted this way back before there was talk about 14 getting a discount.

[Yinnyth]

I can respect being frugal. It's a form of efficiency, after all. I am, however, a little bit concerned about what would happen to FFXI if we all did get discounts. Imagine if the FFXI team suddenly got 33% less revenue. What would happen to the quality of our customer service, connectivity to the servers, and the updates? You can joke around and say things like "well it can't possibly get any worse than it already is", but then you're a short-sighted fool who refuses to face reality. Things can always get worse. And if we invest even less in FFXI, things will get worse.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Imagine if the FFXI team suddenly got 33% less revenue.

If the subscription rate were dropped to where it is for XIV, they'd still have more revenue than XIV because of the size of the subscription base.


And if we invest even less in FFXI, things will get worse.

That can only be true if S-E has silently hung XI out to dry without having the decency to tell us, meaning a lack of commitment, which gets to my entire point.

I can grudgingly understand having a discount on XIV "until it's fixed." Such a discount represents S-E subsidizing the subscriptions for those players while the game is "fixed." But making those very same discounts permanent means that the subsidies become permanent, and XIV players have something on paper that indicate S-E is putting its full weight behind making XIV as good as it can be (until they make a new MMO and the abuse cycle begins anew).

XI, not so much.

[RAIST]

Also need to consider they've drastically cut the expenses to maintain XI, without reducing the costs to the consumer. Multiple server mergers, and they gutted the dev and support teams a while back, and have been reaping the increased profit from the XI sector since (hence the speculations that XI has been funding XIV development, as that is where most the personnel likely went).

[Setsuai]

I've read a good chunk of this and I have to be honest. I agree but also disagree with this whole concept. I mean, I do believe that XIV players should get something since they stuck around and beta tested it when it bombed, but I don't think a discount is a good way to go. I mean I can't help but look at other, similar situations. I can't help but think of Heavy Rain. Me and my fiance went out and bought it because it was like Indigo Prophecy but with better graphics and a cool story line. We stuck it in, and it had so many glitches that it crashed our PS3 on a regular basis. We kept this game for a while, thinking that they would update it and it would get better. After a while of waiting, I got the urge to play it about a week ago. I barely got out of the bedroom, after reloading it a few times, then I just gave up. What did we get out of it? $6 store credit from game exchange. No 'sorry the game sucks,' no refund from the company, nothing. Just a major head ache. I know this is a different company, as well as the fact that its not an MMO, but I kinda think it works the same way. I would believe that I am entitled to something since the game bombed, but I didn't get anything back. Since this is an MMO, as well as a company that has as many followers as it does, I do think that the players deserve something, but I don't agree with a discount.

I personally don't think FFXI should get a discount either. I do think, however, that we need more to the game now, but I don't expect it. Since XIV is about to hit its 're-release,' a good chunk of the player base will be moving games since XIV is shiny, new, and now, improved. Pretty soon, though not too soon, it will be the FXIV player base paying for OUR services. It may not be next week, month or year, but it will happen eventually, and I expect it to. They won't update the graphics (too much) or offer new large expansions, because they want us to move to FFXIV. I believe they expect it to be the better version of XI. They had a rough start, but they've fixed a good chunk of it (this is just what I speculate from reading the earlier posts). I expect most of our player base with jump on the band wagon and follow the trail.

I'm not trying to be a pessimist, nor am I trying to say that FFXI is doomed to server collapse, but I do know that this game is aging. There isn't much more they can do to it, and since XIV is about to hit the shelves a second time, I don't think they'll do much more other than minor stuff here and there. And while I do hope for them to add more to XI, I don't expect it.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

they want us to move to FFXIV.

Most likely, but can they at least be honest about it?

From http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/story.html?story=18309 (emphasis mine)


One concern certainly being voiced across many forums is the fate of Final Fantasy XI in the face of this new release. Well, rest assured that Vana'diel will persist well after the release of Final Fantasy XIV. Tanaka admits that while players can play both games simultaneously, it could be quite taxing on one's free time. However, he reiterates that the focus for XIV is having a variety of content that allows you to spend your time how you want and still progress. In the end, it is up to the player if they want to remain in XI, try out XIV, or maintain a presence in both games. Users are encouraged to explore the full freedom both games offer.

If this policy has been changed, we deserve to be told.

[Setsuai]

Most likely, but can they at least be honest about it?

If this policy has been changed, we deserve to be told.

Their policy hasn't changed. Its just how you view it. They're leaving it up to us as players whether we change games or not. They're not gonna force it, but in my mind, with the re-release and the change in the game mechanics (again, this is from what i've been reading), they do want us to move. XIV has better graphics, more character customization, etc. They won't do that for FFXI which is why I think they want us to move. I mean, I think of it like this. Say you're living in a slum lord's rent house. The landlord owns a house right next door. It's pretty house, with nice hard wood flooring, new paint, and in general it's a hundred times better than the one you're living in. He offers you up this house next door for a couple hundred more a month. You can choose to move and pay the extra rent for a better house, or you can stay, but either way, its up to you. He wants you to move because he gets more money out of it, but will be okay if you stay in the other house, because your still paying rent to him. That's how I view it.

[Yinnyth]

Also need to consider they've drastically cut the expenses to maintain XI, without reducing the costs to the consumer. Multiple server mergers, and they gutted the dev and support teams a while back, and have been reaping the increased profit from the XI sector since (hence the speculations that XI has been funding XIV development, as that is where most the personnel likely went).

So your belief is that they're making mad bux off allowing FFXI to crumble? Well, I suppose there's no rule in business saying that you can't do that. I don't share your belief, but I'll acknolege it is a possibility.

But if that is the case, they're not required to tell us anything. We can't even really seek legal action against them for siphoning money from FFXI to other projects (or just pocketing the money). They probably don't even read these posts, or if they do, they probably don't even really care. Even if we get a response from them, who's to say it's not a lie? So what can we really do?

As a side note, if it turns out they really are making bank by downsizing the work force, merging the servers, etc... I'd rather they just reinvest that money into FFXI than get a discount.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

But if that is the case, they're not required to tell us anything.

They're not required to, but it would be a Bad Idea to breed ill-will among the XI base while pushing desperately for goodwill from XIV players. It's only natural for XIV players to look at what's happening with XI to get a feel for what lies in their own future.

At any rate, it occurs to me that it is probably not a coincidence that the new 2012 timeline was published the same day as XIV got its new patch. It feels like management is at least trying to pay lip-service to the idea of supporting both games simultaneously.

[Alhanelem]

If this policy has been changed, we deserve to be told. ?

2 years later, vanadiel is still persisting. You're not being told because it hasn't changed.

[RAIST]

So your belief is that they're making mad bux off allowing FFXI to crumble? Well, I suppose there's no rule in business saying that you can't do that. I don't share your belief, but I'll acknolege it is a possibility.

But if that is the case, they're not required to tell us anything. We can't even really seek legal action against them for siphoning money from FFXI to other projects (or just pocketing the money). They probably don't even read these posts, or if they do, they probably don't even really care. Even if we get a response from them, who's to say it's not a lie? So what can we really do?

As a side note, if it turns out they really are making bank by downsizing the work force, merging the servers, etc... I'd rather they just reinvest that money into FFXI than get a discount.

Well, it's not a difficult concept to grasp. You had 32 servers running and reduced it to 24, but kept roughly the same number of players. You no longer have to include any operational/maintenance/warranty costs for 1/4th of your servers--that includes payroll for employees that burned up time managing them, possibly even removing some personnel from the project and moving them somewhere else, along with those servers. That's another thing too, that hardware and manhours can now be repurposed elswhere. So, in this arena, you've had potentially a 25% savings with negligible loss of income.

Combine this with how we know for a fact that they have scaled back personnel working on FFXI and repurposed them elsewhere in the organization. Some of the many employess they've lost/let go in the past two years (as posted in their annual reports, there has been considerable reduction in personnel as a whole) could have also come from the FFXI project. Some employees may have been replaced, but as a whole, there has been a reduction in their work force. And yet, again....they've maintained income from FFXI despite the reduction in costs to have people available to work on it.

I would hazard a guess that the cost per player to maintain it now is significantly less then it was in 2005 when I got into it--broadband is cheaper per unit; initial investments for hardware has been paid for, upgraded, and probably that re-investment has been recovered by now as well; personnel demands are now lower to support it as it is (mostly) debuggged and for the most part running on auto-pilot now (it in fact feels like a lot of the support may be farmed out); and as far as we know has no major development projects in the works--at least not in the scope of the pre-WotG expansions that added completely new areas and such.

Simply put, it is costing them less and less to support the game, and those players are still paying the same rate now as they did 5-7 years ago.

[Yinnyth]

Fenrir: 2 servers got merged, and there's still fewer people on the merged server after the merge than were on both servers before the merge. How can you dismiss this as "but kept roughly the same number of players"? You don't get to just toss out factors that don't reinforce your preconceived notions that FFXI is making someone a millionaire because they cut so many costs. If you really feel like their revenue has not dropped significantly, then I suppose that's the big place where we disagree and we can't really move on until we resolve that issue.

[RAIST]

it seems like we have nearly double the players on our server. Certainly caused a bunch of drama with competition for camps/NM's and such shortly after the merger. It's still an issue, but less so in the older areas now that so many have moved on to VW and such. Perhaps it's just your server.

Regardless, some simple facts remain: revenues are still high, costs to support the game have remained constant or been reduced on a per server basis, and the number of those servers have been reduced, no major development in the works (in comparison to previous expansions). Thus operational costs have been reducedsimply because they are in more of a maintenance/reduction mode than expansion. Even if you loose a small % of your player base while cutting operational costs by more then that % when you were already pulling in crazy profits, you can still be increasing your profit margin. They had at least a 25% flat reduction in server maintenance contract costs alone, not to mention reductions in personel, power usage, etc.

Pretty sure there are still more than enough players generating more revenue than is needed to sustain these basic costs. Possibly even the same or more revenue still coming in now then there was several years ago when they were throwing more money into running FFXI. They may very well be pulling in a higher profit margin now simply because of the reduction in money they are putting into (not just reductino in servers and personnel, but a reduction in new development as well--have to factor that in there too).

No matter how you slice it.....they are now spending considerably less on this game than in the past while still pulling in a reasonable profit margin--possibly even higher profit than in years past because of the drastic cut in those costs in comparison to the number of players still paying them. The problem is this has resulted in providing a lower quality of service, without a commensurate reduction in the price charged to the players. Were this to happen to any other industry if competition comes in (and let's face it, some really good stuff is on the horizon), usually it results in loosing customers to someone else that either a.) provides the same value product for less, or b.) provides a better quality product (possibly even for the same price). To combat the losses, one of two things should logically follow: a.) reduce the price to make it a comparable value to the lower priced competition, or b.) improve the quality to better justify price--basically, make the product more attractive than the competition by either lowering the price or increasing quality.

Unfortunately, SE hasn't seemed to grasp this concept yet.......

[wildsprite]

um, Yinnyth, worlds merged not servers, each FFXI world is made up of multiple servers, some of the servers are 1 per region, others are 2 or 3 per region, and some of those servers from the old world in the merge were retained to reduce lag.

back to the policy thing, Squaresoft started with the policy that as long as there was maintained interest FFXI would remain open and maintained, that policy has not changed, they are reducing a lot of costs because people are leaving the game due to lack of interest.

now lets think about that for a moment, you have a product, you made a promise to keep the product available as long as there was maintained interest, now there is less interest than before but still quite a lot of interest remains, what do you do, if you keep your own costs at the same rate it will eventually kill the ability to keep it open, so you reduce the costs in whatever way will have minimal impact

[Yinnyth]

So each region (ie Norvallen) is one server? And worlds are a cluster of these servers? I always had a suspicion that was how it worked, but never any proof. Well, I still don't have proof honestly, but at least I can cite you as the source of my info if I say that in the future. Thanks for the correction though, I thought I was using the proper terms.

[RAIST]

So each region (ie Norvallen) is one server? And worlds are a cluster of these servers? I always had a suspicion that was how it worked, but never any proof. Well, I still don't have proof honestly, but at least I can cite you as the source of my info if I say that in the future. Thanks for the correction though, I thought I was using the proper terms.

If you run a tool to monitor network connections as you zone about you can eventually catalogue a list of varying IP's associated with each zone. For example, in Rang. Pass, pol.exe is currently connected to 202.67.54.125. I've never seen that IP pop up when I've had issues connecting in Bastok, Jueno, or Windy and I traced connections to try troubleshooting my connection problems.

Granted, seperate IP's doesn't necessarily mean each is a seperate server, as they could be hosted them in groups via VMWare with multiple NIC's in each server I guess. But, it would be a long enough list to exceed what could reasonably be run on just one server without running into some serious performance issues with 1200+ users logged in at any one given time for a particular world. Databases have a limit on how many connections can be made at once as well, so there is that potential issue as well. As large a scale operation as this is, it's reasonable for most any IT person to see there would be clusters assigned.

[Llana_Virren]

As large a scale operation as this is, it's reasonable for most any IT person to see there would be clusters assigned.

I'm not an IT guy, but I am a techie at heart.

Wouldn't this also be apparent (or at least "implied") in that maintenance can be isolated to specific zones rather than the entire in-game World?

[RAIST]

not really, as it is all interconnected at varying points for various reasons. Lobby servers, registration servers, etc--all that has to be linked and synchronized as well.

It took a while to dig it up, but here is an article written a while back about SE's messaging system (http://media.netapp.com/documents/square-enix.pdf). This is just for messaging (layout of the hardware is on page 3). Compare this to how many businesses manage to house everything on one single server--I'm talking email, website, accounting, customer data, file server...EVERYTHING about their orginazation on one server with a large disk array. I have seen resorts manage to put EVERYTHING on a single server and only use a second one as a mirror for failover purposes.

FFXI is a HUGE operation that hosts a TON of data (in that article, they mention that they may one day hit the petabyte mark on storage needs for SE's development channels) and it all has to stay synchronized to each other in various ways, as well as the need to have it backed up continually. For large scale projects like this, they aren't backing up to tapes---it's too slow. Sometimes they opt to actually mirror the servers, so you have a 2:1 ratio for at least every critical server involved in the project. Otherwise, they may have server(s) and massive storage arrays dedicated to just the backups--sometimes they will still have this type of backup that takes a backup from a mirrored server as a failsafe.

In short....it's a huge complicated web of hardware.


{edit}

Oh yeah, and here's an old pic of the racks they use over at FFXIVCore for their forums, sites, and stuff:
http://www.ffxivcore.com/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=6574

[Llana_Virren]

[Technical Mumbo-Jumbo Ramblings]

This is why I'm not an IT guy. I like soft-code, not hardware.

[Yinnyth]

Neat stuff, that's seriously just for their forums? I'd love to get a look at what the servers look like for FFXI... but yeah, pipedream.

[Prothscar]

http://www.rombay.com/images/consoles/sega_dreamcast.jpg

A bunch of these soldered and scotch taped together.

[Camiie]

http://www.rombay.com/images/consoles/sega_dreamcast.jpg

A bunch of these soldered and scotch taped together.

It's nice to see they upgraded from the PS1s they were originally using.

[Alhanelem]

"Designed for Windows CE"

Did it really say that on the console?

[Camiie]

"Designed for Windows CE"

Did it really say that on the console?

Yup! Lol I had a DC and I loved that lil' machine. I do miss SEGA being in the console wars.

[Dragoy]

Yeah I guess they caught me with their deal/scam/marketing ploy/whatever lol. I admit I feel a bit guilty going for it, but what the heck. I guess if it turns out too badly I can always go on the XIV forums and make a (TOS compatible) fuss like I do on this one!
Heh, I know the feeling, though I wouldn't feel too much about it.
If there is any likeliness for you to play it in the future, it would just be smart to take advantage of this opportunity.

Too bad they got rid of the server name Selbina.
I liked it there. >.>

First change I noticed there was that they added an icon '>>' for showing you that you are running, and '>' for walking, and nothing when idle. Just... why?!


But yeah, that is as they say, that.
And that is off-topic!

I still think we could use a discount, even if it has to be tied to XIV even, now it would work for me teehee. :>


Ominous post-count for the topic, too!

[Karbuncle]

Discount makes zero sense for FFXI beyond entitlement. I also found the "skeleton crew" thing funny, since people payed $20 for a beta of Minecraft which had far less people than XI ever has/will have.

I'm sorry that this is so many pages behind, But, other than the fact you're wrong, There is a difference between a monthly fee of 12.95 to a company that is at current giving a game the bare-minimum required to pump out semi-new content every so often, and a one time fee of 20$.

Thats a vast difference. VAST difference. They aren't even in the same ballpark as far as comparisons go.

As far as this whole topic?

[Luvbunny]

The next game they are about to unveil is another MMO, for Dragon Quest series. The recent release is testing the water with "cosmetic add ons" - FFXIII-2 where you get nickel and dimed for "extra contents". The amount of "Extras" are already way over $20 with no substantial amount of gameplay added. I would not be surprised if FF14 is adopting this changes on version 2. DC Universe Online become very profitable after going free to play. Times have changed - SE should too - but knowing that it is a japanese company, changes are coming very very very slow until they are at death's door.