[dev1115] Job Adjustments: Red Mage

[Savlyn]

...nada.









I couldn't resist posting this.

But in all seriousness, where are the RDM updates? RDM has been destroyed post 75 and frankly has been neglected for far too long. I'm sure every RDM here feels the same way.

The cure skill change was awesome, but it still just left RDMs as a slightly better healer. I don't know about you all, but I sure as hell miss the days of being useful in old endgame and having to actually have good MAAC gear to land enfeebles on HNMs.

So, where are the RDM updates? Changes to merits? Ways to make enfeebles more useful? (Other than the most recent, lackluster change)

[Daniel_Hatcher]

:D

Yeah!

[saevel]

Definitely need to do ~something~ at this point in time. Where is the enfeebling update they promised, or new enfeebles, or heck new spells of any kind?

Seriously .. Gravity II ...

[Ladyofdragons]

How about this give us our own genuine weapon and not share it with other jobs maybe magic arrow?

[demhar]

SE is confused...
They don't really know where to take RDM. They just giving us random leftovers so people don't complain too much.
No one expected rdm to single handedly dot kite hnm's back in the days where it took 6-18 people to do so.
Where are we going now?
Yes, that processing para is nice when fighting some mobs, Slow2 is always welcome.
Besides that?...
Gimp heal/haste/ and maybe phalanx 2... No one really cares about refresh...
And I can smell VW is getting rid of rdm only spells procs...

What's next?

[tyrantsyn]

Refresh II, Spontaneity, Gravity II and saboteur is about all we've received that original. And even than 2 of those are tier 2 version of spells. I wouldn't consider the gain line spell's anything new and different considering seeing that WHM has the same spell's @ the same potency. And the other enfeeble's we pick up I don't even need to explain.

And on another note, and I know we've all mention this before. But how about some style to the melee gear on RDM. Ppl have been asking for this since day one. Why can't we get a melee set that doesn't look like complete ass. My pimp hat needs melee buff's damn it.

[Neisan_Quetz]

What you talking bout syn, Rdm has always been about the Rainbow Pimp Gear.

[Bayohne]

Greetings,

I understand your desire to see some updates to your favorite job, but I wanted to let you know that these latest rounds of adjustments were more focused on Group 2 merits and those that specifically had long re-use timers, and making adjustments to them beyond that. For our red mages, we're still planning the changes outlined in the [dev1093] Enfeebling Magic Resistance of Monsters (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/21162-dev1093-Enfeebling-Magic-Resistance-of-Monsters) and as soon as we have more to announce you can be sure we'll share it with you!

[cidbahamut]

Sure. Right. We've all heard that story before. I'll believe it when I see it.

[Economizer]

more focused on Group 2 merits and those that specifically had long re-use timers

I note that part of the changes seem to be making it so you can merit more widely with less penalty by changing the reuse timers. I think what people are asking for is for the Group 2 enfeebles for Red Mage to be changed to match this, for example, Dia III, Bio III, and Phalanx II could be changed from having its duration affected by merits, and where applicable the merits could be more focused on the actual effect.

While I could be mistaken, I'm almost certain this is what many people are asking to have changed when speaking in regards to the merit categories in comparison to recent changes.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I'm with Econ, Dia 3 shouldn't have a base duration of 30 seconds...

Personally I'd prefer if it wasn't a merit at all, but whatever. If SE is going to keep the categories the same, at least make it so you don't need multiple merits just to have a decent duration/effect on of all spells Dia/Phalanx.

[Zirael]

Greetings,

I understand your desire to see some updates to your favorite job, but I wanted to let you know that these latest rounds of adjustments were more focused on Group 2 merits and those that specifically had long re-use timers, and making adjustments to them beyond that. For our red mages, we're still planning the changes outlined in the [dev1093] Enfeebling Magic Resistance of Monsters (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/21162-dev1093-Enfeebling-Magic-Resistance-of-Monsters) and as soon as we have more to announce you can be sure we'll share it with you!
These changes aren't directed towards RDM, but any mage job in general. A BLU or NIN will get more use out of it than RDM. Dia III can not be resisted as it is. Enfeebling magic landing or not landing does not make RDM desirable (or even tolerable) in end game events. You'd sooner take a Boost-STR, Embrava or Thundaja mage than lolRefresh II/Gravity II one.

[Ladyofdragons]

These changes aren't directed towards RDM, but any mage job in general. A BLU or NIN will get more use out of it than RDM. Dia III can not be resisted as it is. Enfeebling magic landing or not landing does not make RDM desirable (or even tolerable) in end game events. You'd sooner take a Boost-STR, Embrava or Thundaja mage than lolRefresh II/Gravity II one.

Totally agree

[ManaKing]

Greetings,

Enfeebles, your jobs main magic proficiency, is still broke and we don't feel you deserve your Category 2 Merits adjusted like the rest of the jobs.

P.S. RDM still gets no love.

Loud and Clear.

[Demon6324236]

Well looking at RDM and what has been done for it lately, I cant say I disagree, when I see something happen or something said that will mean I get invites, Ill be happy, for now, I offer my SCH & my RDM to VW partys when I go, and 99.9% of the time, they tell me to go SCH, even if they have a SCH, and no RDM, they do it every time.

[saevel]

Greetings,

I understand your desire to see some updates to your favorite job, but I wanted to let you know that these latest rounds of adjustments were more focused on Group 2 merits and those that specifically had long re-use timers, and making adjustments to them beyond that. For our red mages, we're still planning the changes outlined in the [dev1093] Enfeebling Magic Resistance of Monsters (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/21162-dev1093-Enfeebling-Magic-Resistance-of-Monsters) and as soon as we have more to announce you can be sure we'll share it with you!

Can you please bring this back to the devs. RDM's tier II merits DO NEED UPDATING. Specifically Dia / Bio / Phalanx II need their duration extended to max and have the rest do potency.

Or just release them as scrolls and make the merits raise potency instead. There problem fixed.

[ShadowViper]

Looking at our 2 main mage skills:
Enfeebling, is nice to have when they work, the problem being just about every enfeeb we have other jobs have or have something bit better. So as the enfeebler role in the group, why bring a dedicated when your pretty much have it already.

Enhancing, this is super important to most players for endgame events. When it comes to RDM 99% of our enhancements are self which makes them pointless, and to add insult on injury a sch with /rdm can AOE a good percentage of our self enhancing buffs.

Solution-
Enfeebling - Give us more unique enfeebs, and give us some AOE versions so we can be the crowd control (do this w/o some sort of ability like sch)
Enhancing - More non self buffs, but these also have to be AOE or we are just back to being the cycle mage of a few buffs.

Those 2 things will give us more of a role in a group.

[Ophannus]

Red Mages's most powerful and useful spells are our level 75 merit spells. Black Mages got stronger nukes than Ancient Magic II post 75(tier 5 and -aja spells), why can't Red Mage get more powerful debuffs post 75? Addle doesn't count since you gave it to White Mages, and Gravity II is worthless and a slap in the face.

[Lastranger]

Enhancing, this is super important to most players for endgame events. When it comes to RDM 99% of our enhancements are self which makes them pointless, and to add insult on injury a sch with /rdm can AOE a good percentage of our self enhancing buffs.

Solution-
Enfeebling - Give us more unique enfeebs, and give us some AOE versions so we can be the crowd control (do this w/o some sort of ability like sch)
Enhancing - More non self buffs, but these also have to be AOE or we are just back to being the cycle mage of a few buffs.

Those 2 things will give us more of a role in a group.

If only .....
SE got this idea that any AOE on rdm would make them too powerfull ( dosnt fit their view of how rdm should be ), Sadly they dont realize with the advent of Sch/level cap raise : this past view of rdm pretty much made their past vision bull and shifted rdm to second rate for enhancing/defeebling, and to add to insult , enfeebles hit imunity more now instead of skillbased resist on harder stuff.

Se has given some nice things to rdm after 75, however they have also shared these with other jobs with exception of Temper/Refresh 2/gravity 2 and spontaniety.

As for Merit 1 & 2 changes all i have to say ( and repeat ) is Make the spell's scrolls and add real merits to rdm, the rdm merit system was wasted and is made for level 75, just like whm pro/shell dev team hit a wall when raising cap because of merit spells, they couldnt add spells that existed new tiers because of merits ( or give to other jobs that now seemed resonable bue to increased level ).
Solution : Instead of spell merits ( and this goes for all Job's with wasted spell merits ) add a single Potency merit for them.

Rdm could have a Enfeebling Potency to boost effect off all enfeebles, this would also open up for 5 more merits where one could also add a enhancing Potency boost merit ( as RDM get highest enhancing skil of any job naturally ) wich would not only go on duration but also effect of enhancing spells on self and others.

That leaves room for 4 more merits in group 2 and since RDM is a Jack of all trades it should reflect that in the merits, 2 merits could be towards melee, a lot of posibility's but something increasing our natural EN magic/spikes

A merit granting Dual wield on first point ( level 1 only ) to give rdm better choice of sub job, and increasing wepon Acc/haste
might fit the bill, the reason i say Dual wield is because all 1 hand wepon wielders have gimp dmg compared to job's doing dual wield.

Another path could of course be to go a original style and make up for lack of Dual wield damage by adding potent En spell dmg when fighting with shield, that carries on to Wepon skills used that are non element, giving these the element of en spell used add to dmg ( a multi hit WS would get multi hit en magic hit as well), but this requires en spell dmg to be raised a lot, my personal opinion is it could be balanced out with a drain on mp for evry hit to counter the kraken club problem they had with drk's 2 hour on multihit's.
But the En spell dmg would have to be potent, like more then the sword/dagger dmg they do for this to be embraced and should have no problem because they pay for added dmg with mp.

Last 2 merits in group 2 should be 1 towards Blm path of rdm, Since 1 already covers enfeeble, mayby a Fast cast boost/Mab for the nuking RDM, or a merit ability that allows nukes to chain toghether ( same elementh spell ) for extra dmg and lowering that elemenths defence on prey,
Level 1 chain ( earth element )could be Rumble, doing somewhere close tier 1-2 magic dmg, Level 2 chain ( 3 earth spells chained ) would be Lesser Quake doing tier 3 spell dmg or little more, Level 3 chain ( 4 earth spells chained ) would create Massive Quake and dmg would depend on previous cast spells, if all where tier 3-4 (used with chainspell ) done under the short duration of the merit JA u can land beyond tier 5 magic dmg with last chain and lower that elementh to a cap, this would require 2 rdm's to work toghether if not using 2 hour or spontenieity to max out.

Last merit would be for whm related side of Rdm since enhancing is covered, this could be a boost to healing spells, but personally i think the one meritt rdm should have gotten was a specific potency boost to Refresh/regen, although with recent change to sch as new regen master it might be to much to dream for.
So mayby add a Convert Max out effect, first tier giving convert a tier of 1,25x change of hp to mp, and boost it towards 1,5x hp to mp ratio at 5 merits and at final merit u give the added ability of hiting a max mp effect on self if hp converted to mp is over amount mp u can hold, so if u have 1000/800 hp/mp after convert u have 800/1500 hp/mp with the help of max mp effect.
this would give convert renewed boost for rdm only asd any job now can get convert to work the same way as subbed.


Merit group 1 :
Convert recast timer : give it reduction from 1 minute for each merit allowing to cap at 5 min recast. further increasing rdm self use of convert.

Magic Acc : turn all the single elementh merits into 1 merit as it wastes good merit space on single useless for the most part lementh acc ( same shoudl be done to other mage job with same silly waste of merit group 1 )

Group 1 merit should also reflect that RDM is a mix of WHM/BLM/WAR by having 2 or so merits covering each job aspect of rdm.

If we count Convert recast as a whm part and elementh acc as a blm part that leaves 1 more merit for whm/blm in group 1 and 2 merit for war part of rdm.
for second whm merit on rdm i would have sugested cure potency but cure is being reworked so i was thinking gaining access to whm removal spells through maxing out a JT for spell resistance.
This would grant a rdm access to the removl spells at 5/5 merits in group and some nice boost to magic resist, allowing RDM to be more party supporter and taking some stress of WHM while not taking whm main focus of healing.

For the blm part of rdm merit 1 : instead off focusing on more dmg like BLM a Job trait merit that increase RDM mp efficency while casting nuke's.

As for War part of Rdm merit 1 : Enspell Potency+ , since enspell is meant to be the melee part of rdm
Second : Board & Sword Job trait : Increase to Shield skill and melee Acc

_______________________________________________________


That was the merit part, but Rdm also need rework on spells.

where is :

Stoneskin 2, Poisen 3/4 , Blink 2, Spikes 2, Bind 2, dispel 2, sleep 3.

Also Rdm merit 2 spell phalanx 2 need potency up, and all merit spells should be made scrolls.

Why does RDM that has best enhancing/Enfeebling skill of all mage jobs not get any AOE spells further barring them from Party use and making them more of a solo job.
All the Bar spells that are single self only and the new gain spells should be deleted and replace on rdm with their AOE counterpart, as many have argued with before here, this with let rdm that is less tied to background in party/alliance fights to run in and buff their team mates and actually have a group defined job.

At the 40s single target buff like haste and refresh cycling was to some degree tolerable, but as spell list increased towards 75 it become a chore to use single target spell buffs and should have gotten a AOE counterpart to balance out, and this is even less desirable to have more single spell cycles now at 99 and SE dev team should reconsider their idea/stance on RDM and AOE spells

here is a list of useable spells RDM could have as AOE that would promote Party invite:

Hastega ( yes i know WHM now gets it at 40 as single but considering rdm is the best enhancer it should have been rdm who got this first, a change could be done like with regen and sch), also im not against whm getting it but RDM should have enhancing potency over whm on it and be equall to smn in potency ( the hastega should be overhauled to last 3 - 5 min )

Barspells as AOE, Gain spell as boost spell, Breakga, poisenga 1/2/3,Paralyzega, Slowga 1, Bindga , blindga, Diaga 2/3 , bioga 2/3, Refreshra 1/2, shellra 1-5/ protectra 1-5, Blinkra 1, graviga , Phalanxra 1/2.

Also enspells as Ra series or a JA to grant aoe enspell to party members evry 3-5 min.

__________________________________________________________________________

and here is a final list of spells that isnt on rdm at all but that could be rdm only spells.

Defencer : Lowers enemy double/triple/quadrouple attack rate by a given % boosted by level of enfeebling skill.
Float : classic FF spell, but used as a enfeebling spell this time , raising enemy of ground lowering physical damage taken but increasing magic dmg/jump dmg/ranged dmg taken.
Amnesia : stop TP attacks/Job ability's , should have increased resist on stronger nm's but rarly imunity instead make it harder to land or less duration on those targets.

Stumble : Occ TP moves fail, increased chance of stumble effect taking place depending on enfeebling skill. a nice alternetive to amnesia if it is consider to powerfull.
Rally : single self target granting a small aoe buff to all around Rdm with rally effect, grant a small boost to all JT by 1 tier, does not effect rdm. if rdm stand near blm's they gain +1 tier of all JT boosting their dmg etc, would make rdm usable as both front and background in party, Range determined by enhancing skill.

Nova : single target Multihit firebased spell, doing 2-8 hit. amount of hit depends on enfeebling skill amount dmg on element skill, making it a balance game for Rdm to get most out of the spell.


I know there are tons more sugestions on Rdm forum of new spells, the point is rdm should have more that is rdm only and i sugest dev's look at forum.


The optemist in me hope that SE dev team is secretly working on Rdm rework and all other content they dont talk about like new expansions, taking newly made code from 14 and reworking it for later being added to 11 as a 2 for price of 1 remake.

But the Pesemist in me realize this probably isnt so and we pretty much gotta cry harder to get work done on 11, wich considering im paying for both 11 and 14 means i should be entitled to expect SE to do something on both not just put all their egg's into the halfsunken ship and let their other ship fall apart over time as lack of maintance.

with that said i do realize SE is working on something and not telling us but what im worried about is it isnt anything new just rehashed areas and no real expansions, spells/ability's

I think some of the merit remake's of tier 2/ability are underwhelming considering we moved fro 75 to 99, some stuff should have been reconsidered and remade completly, take Eagle eye shoot for example, it gets a enemitty lowered now wich is nice but what was needed on it wasnt that but a boost in dmg scaled better as levels went up, level 30 EES was 1 of the best 2 hours toghether with smn 2 hour but at 99 they have become lackluster.

Back to rdm my only plead with Dev team is dont look at rdm and remember somebody soloing some nm and say rdm is a demigod, coz it isnt, no balancing should take into acount insain players that willingly waiste hours DOT/kiting stuff to death as the bar of what to balance towards, be realistic and realize most players just want rdm to be usable as party event or low man job that gets stuff done.

I disagree on the idea that Rdm should be little of all master of nothing, a jack of trade should be able to master the difrrent aspects of BLM/WHM/WAR in the rdm way, being a master of enhancing surpasing whm on that, being a master of enfeebling surpassing blm on that, and using Enspells/spike to gain near War melee dmg, but only with the right Sub job/gear/merit allowing it to master this.
Sch is great example for this hybrid as the white and black book boost it in either direction but instantly, rdm would require more work to gain this thorugh merit/sub job/gear oh and uniqe spells.

[saevel]

@Lastranger

RDM has never EVER been an "enhancer" aka buffer job, ever. People got that idea stuck in their had back in 2003/2004 when it was BRD or RDM for "Refresh". RDM was actually shoved into the "Healer" role because they had Haste, Refresh and Cure IV and thus was useful for XP parties.

At 75 RDM's "buffs" were
Haste
Refresh
Protect
Shell
...

And now all of those are available as /RDM. Eventually SE introduced Phalanx II but at a vastly inferior level then Phalanx I.

So you can see that SE's idea of RDM is actually in line with what the job always did, RDM was never BRD, COR or WHM. The only AoE buffs RDM got was from /WHM barspells and now accession /SCH. RDM has always been about self buffing while casting enfeebling / nuking magic on the target while also casting cure spells on people.

[Lastranger]

@Lastranger

RDM has never EVER been an "enhancer" aka buffer job, ever. People got that idea stuck in their had back in 2003/2004 when it was BRD or RDM for "Refresh". RDM was actually shoved into the "Healer" role because they had Haste, Refresh and Cure IV and thus was useful for XP parties.

At 75 RDM's "buffs" were
Haste
Refresh
Protect
Shell
...

And now all of those are available as /RDM. Eventually SE introduced Phalanx II but at a vastly inferior level then Phalanx I.

So you can see that SE's idea of RDM is actually in line with what the job always did, RDM was never BRD, COR or WHM. The only AoE buffs RDM got was from /WHM barspells and now accession /SCH. RDM has always been about self buffing while casting enfeebling / nuking magic on the target while also casting cure spells on people.

As far as enhancing goes among pure mage jobs not including the main buff like brd/cor Rdm has the highest level enhancing magic at a B+ rank , sch is only one that come close with white arts giving it a same rank, whm is on the other hand is a C+ witch is way lower.

Also Rdm two highest magic tiers is Enfeebling A+ enhancing B+ , Whm two highest is healing A+ and Divne at A-
Following this it is among whm blm and rdm the one that stands out on enhancing magic.

Id dare to say Enhancing was more natural then healing on rdm although like all i too hate the idea of cycling single target spells.
Even Phalanx 2 goes against what u say, it was meant to be cast on others , hence Enhancing just like haste and refresh they are alll enhancing spells.

Why Se decided to give all aoe to whm has more to do with their idea of rdm should never have aoe not that whm is a better enhancer, yet for some reason who know's why we got diaga, guess they just forgot to remove it like flash.
Had rdm had the bar merit instead of whm from start it would greatly have outdone whm on that front.

But my mainpoint in the post was rdm should be a master of its aspects of whm/blm/war that it indeed outshines it on like enhancing/enfeebling and as for war it uses enspells instead of heavy 2 hand wepons so it should have been doing more through that.
Some might say its odd for a game that revolved for so many years around Party elementh to have job so locked to self enhancing as rdm is.

As for the hated area of rdm healer wich i feel like is what u fear coming back, no just no...
i feel the natural part of rdm role could revolve around sabotage as main elementh and secondary enhancing, but these should be posible to merit/gear/buff to reach a peak where they are indeed master of their own versions of said magic.
as soon as rdm got haste in old days u where designated haste job + refresher and enfeebler, if u had time to spare u might be allowed to mb.

refresh/haste was infact the most potent enhancing magic around before level raise and new gear magic etc added abundant mp, witch is why rdm/brd was so potent in lolbird pt and lolcrab pt, and only brd and rdm got it witch speaks volumes of what role they had.

My argument for Aoe now is that aproaching 75 and after cap raise cycles have gotten bigger and keeping gain( if allowed on other targets) haste/ refresh 2 etc on 4-5 people + barspell would make rdm play one ofthe heavyiest button mashing jobs in game, it's not about stealing whm job, it is about become the mage we always was supposed to be and utilizing the magic skills we are supreme in, actually i think rdm should have gotten A- in enhancing after sch came out.

However the main focus i want Se to focus on is fixing Enfeebling wich is Rdm no 1 skill but i still maintain rdm is indeed a buff job but it was only ever meant to be support job with whm/blm in group set's not main heal or main nuke nor main physical DD.

[Kuvo]

In short I just want to see RDM be usefull again. I'm not sure adding a whole list of new spells is the "be all, end all" answer but i would greatly welcome new enfeeble spells. What SE needs to do is remove mob immunity to enfeebling spells and make self buff spells that we have as target buff spells. I'm not even asking for party but AoE but just as long as we can cast enhancing magic on others would be a major turn around for RDM in parties again. Just imagine with RDMs ability to enfeeble and then enhance party members with single target bar spells (based off enhancing skill) could be higher then whm buff, single target gain spell with a higher value then whm, and so on...this would make rdm a value to the game again.

I know all the whms would hate that a support job can out enhance them but given they get the AoE spells and an obvious boost in healing over us this wouldn't out balance the game at all.

Even if SE would increase our refresh potency with RDM as main job to like double what it is now wouldn't be a game breaker but it would also increase our value even further. Inside abyssea it wouldn't matter much but now with the game pulling away from abyssea and the god like atmas, these may be good and simple adjustments SE can make. But until that time... switching my main from RDM to anything else seems to be the way i'm taking it. Also because of their lack of attention to RDM i've been put off by this game more and more so i've been playing other games. Way to go SE.

[Duelle]

Can you please bring this back to the devs. RDM's tier II merits DO NEED UPDATING. Specifically Dia / Bio / Phalanx II need their duration extended to max and have the rest do potency.

Or just release them as scrolls and make the merits raise potency instead. There problem fixed.If we're gonna make the merit spells scroll spells, then I want new actual merits over potency tweaks.

RDM has never EVER been an "enhancer" aka buffer job, ever. People got that idea stuck in their had back in 2003/2004 when it was BRD or RDM for "Refresh". RDM was actually shoved into the "Healer" role because they had Haste, Refresh and Cure IV and thus was useful for XP parties.

.....

So you can see that SE's idea of RDM is actually in line with what the job always did, RDM was never BRD, COR or WHM. The only AoE buffs RDM got was from /WHM barspells and now accession /SCH. RDM has always been about self buffing while casting enfeebling / nuking magic on the target while also casting cure spells on people.Agreed.

Some might say its odd for a game that revolved for so many years around Party elementh to have job so locked to self enhancing as rdm is.Logical progression suggests that as the RDM reached higher levels, they would get access to "shortcut" spells to decrease their casting load and make them as a whole more efficient when self-buffing. That never came to be between what happened to RDMs in TAU, getting trolled with Rainemard in WotG, and our AF3 set being mage stats.

[saevel]

@Lastranger

RDM's have C skill in Healing Magic, yet for years RDM was considered a "main healer". WHM/SCH has the same Enhancing Magic as RDM, and SCH can get A-. Neither COR nor BRD have any Enhancing Magic skill, yet their buffs are stronger then anything a WAR / MNK / SAM can dream of. DRK's have retardidly low club skill, yet for years club was regarded as their best "end game" weapon. If it's anything we've learned in 10 years of FFXI, skill level means nothing.

So I'll repeat it again, RDM isn't now a buffing job, RDM wasn't a buffing job in 2007, it wasn't a buffing job in 2004 nor was it a buffing job in 2003 when I started playing. To start expecting RDM to be treated as a buffing job now shows how little you actually know about the job. SE's statement about RDM only receiving self-buffs is in line with what RDM has had since it's creation in 2002 and while SE could radically change the job tomorrow, I'll bet money they won't. A RDM that had aoe buffs would be called SCH, WHM or BRD, not RDM.

[Rezeak]

@Lastranger

RDM has never EVER been an "enhancer" aka buffer job, ever. People got that idea stuck in their had back in 2003/2004 when it was BRD or RDM for "Refresh". RDM was actually shoved into the "Healer" role because they had Haste, Refresh and Cure IV and thus was useful for XP parties.

At 75 RDM's "buffs" were
Haste
Refresh
Protect
Shell
...

And now all of those are available as /RDM. Eventually SE introduced Phalanx II but at a vastly inferior level then Phalanx I.

So you can see that SE's idea of RDM is actually in line with what the job always did, RDM was never BRD, COR or WHM. The only AoE buffs RDM got was from /WHM barspells and now accession /SCH. RDM has always been about self buffing while casting enfeebling / nuking magic on the target while also casting cure spells on people.

LOL

Back in the 75 days

in exp people invited RDM over WHM cause there had Haste and Refresh which are BUFFs.... btw i main healed merits on bird as COR sooooo COR ISN'T A BUFFER by ur logic

in endgame people used RDMs because of Refresh for WHM and PLD it was vital and therefore it was a buffer job i could explain further but you thought RDM is about NUKING more than buffing others with refresh/haste/phalnx lol please RDM couldn't nuke there way out of a paper bag in endgame.
My ideas to bring RDM back "Exclusive buffs"

Finalskin (Stoneskin II)
It;s basically a 500 dmg stoneskin that can be AoEed w/ Accession or single targeted in party that only takes DMG once a person reaches 1 HP (stacks with normal Stoneskin)

Decoy
simple a buff that is single target that will negate Death via Doom or the effect Death

Goading
Gives a 10% Enmity Multiplier that breaks hate cap.

(spells can be balanced by long recasts)

As for enfeebles Dia III alone is epic when used but one spell i'd add is ....

Bypass
Removes all DMG resistance for 60 secs (NMs will not resist but will have an enhanced resistance for 4-5 mins afterwards)

if they added any of those RDM would be back in the game

[saevel]

See, non RDM's making assumptions about RDM.

Here let me repeat myself


At 75 RDM's "buffs" were
Haste
Refresh
Protect
Shell
...


That's it, and the two important ones are both accessible as /RDM. A BRD/RDM can give all the buffs a RDM does plus their own aoe buffs that are vastly superior. A COR/RDM can do the same along with dealing damage from the back.

[Lastranger]

See, non RDM's making assumptions about RDM.

Here let me repeat myself



That's it, and the two important ones are both accessible as /RDM. A BRD/RDM can give all the buffs a RDM does plus their own aoe buffs that are vastly superior. A COR/RDM can do the same along with dealing damage from the back.

sry for long delay answer.

First of im not saying RDM is buff only like brd or cor ( besides brd do get loads of specific skill for their song powering them up, in a way its their version of enhancing skill for instruments/song )

And Rdm was never ever good at healing, its in fact a lesser skill just like enhancing is a lesser skill on whm meaning whm are not a good enhancer.
Back when exp party was the thing at low levels this was very evident from the fact that a rdm doing main heal in at level 10 would just suck flatt out, at best their healing was supliment to whm and this was true in many low to mid levels party, u might accept a smn + rdm shared main heal but only if whm was not availible coz it usally meant slow exp or risk of fdeaths due to lack of proper healing power for the level.


It wasnt until Refresh/convert came around at higher levels combined with rdm native FC that rdm was abused as that since they had less downtime then whm due to abundant mp, their heals where still second or even third rate compared to a whm but people did it because it meant u could combine 4 DD with a brd and rdm for fast pace kill ( btw i remember this was done also before toau on crabs etc, but Toau really increased on killsspeed and lowered need for high skill/gear, btw brd + smn also was used this way, but 2-3 off the DD would have Nin sub)

Of the original 6 jobs there was 3 main mages and this was my point there are a total of 6 magic skill catagorys these had, off these 6 whm excelled at healing and had potent Divine magic, Blm excelled at Elemental magic and had potend dark magic.
But rdm that was a mix of these 2 + war ( also of the 6 original job's) Had the highest enfeebling skill from dark magic side and highest enhancing skill from white magic side while healing/nuking was third rate skill.

even before sch came around rdm could do phalnx 2 in 75 endgame stuff on tank.


after sch was released it changed the magic landscape due to book's ability to gain b skills in said magic's even subbed and the fact that Se just gave sch a ability to aoe stuff rdm had never been allowed to like stoneskin etc, but that dosnt change the fact that rdm is indeed a enhancer although much of the history most of our spells where done single self only and rest was splitt up between whm getting AOE version even though they had lower skill in enhancing and smn getting the rest of the AOE stuff like hastega stoneskinra etc.

But il repeat myself, for level 60+ stuff SE should have let rdm get aoe of the spells they where allowed to cast on others, and with advent of sch they should have redone a lot of the single target spells to just ra series as well as given rdm the aoe versions of enfeebles that they indeed are masters of, or do u thin enfeebles should never be given as aoe either on rdm?


However i think we could argue back and forth about this and never agrea or get anywhere, my wish is we could unite to bring a change to current RDM into the 3 roles we all want to see wether u are melee pro, nuke/enfeeb pro or enhancing/support supporter.
the endgoal im talking about is allowing rdm to take on the roles we want of the 3 job's it embodies in its own uniqe way.

Btw just out of curiousness if rdm did get hastega stoneskinra etc with still be against it ? or is your no to all this a protest in fear of them not working on the other aspects if they do ?

[Llana_Virren]

Honestly? Take Tier II enfeebles out of Merit Category 2 and allow us to learn the spells with scrolls.

Let the merits increase potency/accuracy, or unlock AOE versions of existing spells.

Buffs like Brave (ATK+ACC up), Faith (MATK+MACC up) and Debuffs like Wait (a short-term Amnesia) or Confuse would be an interesting concept.

Ultimately, if RDM is going to have spells like Temper, they shouldn't be self-cast only.
Or, Merit Category 3 should allow us to unlock AOE versions. (Temper, Enspell, Haste, Refresh, Phalanx, for example).

[ManaKing]

Nova : single target Multihit firebased spell, doing 2-8 hit. amount of hit depends on enfeebling skill amount dmg on element skill, making it a balance game for Rdm to get most out of the spell.


Good Idea. You could also...you know let spells double attack based on double attack rate...TEMPER FTW!!! (Including Cures)

[saevel]

Good Idea. You could also...you know let spells double attack based on double attack rate...TEMPER FTW!!! (Including Cures)

Well other games do allow crits on healing / damage spells along with double casts.

Honestly the mistake the devs made, the biggest one anyhow, is that after 75 they didn't scale our HP. So now we've got level 99 players with only a little bit more HP then at 75 but fighting monsters that deal double the damage we did at 75. To make matters worse the enmity system is balanced for level 60 and thus there is no such thing as tanking anymore. Those two combined with monsters using AoE's for EVERYTHING means every fight is just another zerg, how fast can you kill it before it kills you.

[Economizer]

Good Idea. You could also...you know let spells double attack based on double attack rate...TEMPER FTW!!! (Including Cures)

I'm going to assume this is a joke, but considering the stupid suggestions that get pushed through, I'll explain why this particular one is stupid so it is clear that is can only be a joke.

Lets say that double/triple/quadruple attack rate gear makes spells proc on it (for free on MP), but stuff like a Kraken Club does not proc the effect.

RDM would have access to the following gear/buffs. Note the proc rates listed.

/WAR - 10% Double Attack
Temper - 20% Double Attack
Ifrit's Favor - 24% Double Attack
Sphere Effects - Mekira Meikogai - 3% Double Attack
Main - Khadga (3239) - 11% Double Attack
OR Twilight Knife - 3% Quadruple Attack
Sub - Genesis Shield - 1% Triple Attack
Head - Forox Vizor - 2% Double Attack
Neck - Portus Collar - 3% Double Attack
Ear - Brutal Earring - 5% Double Attack
Body - Kudzu Aketon - 3% Double Attack
Ring - Ambuscade Ring - 1% Double Attack
Back - Atheling Mantle - 3% Double Attack
Waist - Windbuffet Belt - 2% Triple Attack, 1% Quadruple Attack
Legs - Calmecac Trousers - 2% Double Attack, 2% Triple Attack
OR Triplus Subligar - 5% Triple Attack

With these choices you could go with a wide variety of choices, like RDM/WAR and aim for 60% Double Attack, 5% Triple Attack, 1% Quadruple Attack, or RDM/WAR and aim for 47% Double Attack, 8% Triple Attack, 4% Quadruple Attack, or RDM/NIN and aim for 48% Double Attack, 7% Triple Attack, 4% Quadruple Attack. You can also get a Summoner or someone with a Meikira Meikogai to further boost your rates by up to 27% for an 71%~87% Double Attack rate.

Black Mages and Scholars could get something like 19%/2%/1% Double/Triple/Quad, or with /WAR, 29%/2%/1%, natively, but less depending on if they choose to use a Double Attack Staff or an Affinity Staff. White Mages are in a similar position with 19/3%/1% or /WAR, 29%/3%/1%.

This would mostly be important for nuking, as Scholars can already cure for 172% over the base cure which mostly matches up but without the uncertainty, but Red Mages would certainly be a strong contender for the nuking position, particularly in a party with a SMN/SCH casting weather spells for an additional shot at damage and for Red Mages too poor to have a Windbuffet Belt. BLMx5 + SMN/SCH parties might also work competitively but it is hard to say for sure; if BLM with Meteor and a slight double attack chance might prove impressive even for Meteor, provided it works with the spell in some form.

Fun to think about maybe, but kinda silly.

[ManaKing]

I'm going to assume this is a joke, but considering the stupid suggestions that get pushed through, I'll explain why this particular one is stupid so it is clear that is can only be a joke.




Don't see why this would be silly or a joke. No reason that RDM shouldn't be able to push it's strengths instead of being bound by its weaknesses.

I'm only talking about Double Attack for Dual Cast. The first job to get access to Dual Cast was RDM in FFV. After that it was added as a Relic augment from a Gem Box in FFVI.

I don't expect them to put this in the game, and if they did, I'm sure it wouldn't be on RDM. I mean SE can't even put us on Occult Acumen.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Honestly? Take Tier II enfeebles out of Merit Category 2 and allow us to learn the spells with scrolls.

Let the merits increase potency/accuracy, or unlock AOE versions of existing spells.

Buffs like Brave (ATK+ACC up), Faith (MATK+MACC up) and Debuffs like Wait (a short-term Amnesia) or Confuse would be an interesting concept.

Ultimately, if RDM is going to have spells like Temper, they shouldn't be self-cast only.
Or, Merit Category 3 should allow us to unlock AOE versions. (Temper, Enspell, Haste, Refresh, Phalanx, for example).

This is sort of inline with what I said in a previous thread.

I think tier I spells for RDM should be single-target and the strongest.

tier II should get the target-able, weaker spell. The reasoning, buffing RDM ~20% DA isn't as OP as say a WAR, DRK etc...

Though if Brave and Faith were added they should be self-cast only and allow only one version up, to in a sense, allow augmenting of the RDM alone.

That said, there is no point in doing like Temper II, if SE doesn't follow up with a good line of enhancing spells.

ETA: I would really like Gear with Augments "Temper" Effect allowing half the potency chance at Triple Attack.

[Neisan_Quetz]

T2 spells need to stop being weaker. That's exactly why what Phalanx II is right now (without 5/5 merits, where it's equal with longer duration).

[Esvedium]

ffxicalculator shows with 500 enhancing skill (likely cap) phalanx absorbs 48 points per hit and phalanx2 is 36 per hit. That isn't "equal with longer duration", unless there is a cap I wasn't aware of. I guess it'd be easy enough to test.

2 people in pt, rdm with phalanx on and someone else with phalanx2 on, both cast by the same RDM and both naked. wait for 1000 needles and see who takes more.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

T2 spells need to stop being weaker. That's exactly why what Phalanx II is right now (without 5/5 merits, where it's equal with longer duration).

A spell like Temper they'd only give us to cast on others at a weaker potency, I don't like it, but it's the way it will be.

[saevel]

ffxicalculator shows with 500 enhancing skill (likely cap) phalanx absorbs 48 points per hit and phalanx2 is 36 per hit. That isn't "equal with longer duration", unless there is a cap I wasn't aware of. I guess it'd be easy enough to test.

2 people in pt, rdm with phalanx on and someone else with phalanx2 on, both cast by the same RDM and both naked. wait for 1000 needles and see who takes more.

Enhancing calculator is off
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Phalanx

Someone's edited wiki , that is not how the formula is written, their assuming 29 points of growth from 0 AND getting the 28 bonus after 300, that doesn't happen.

500 Enhancing = (500/29) + 28 = 45 Phalanx I (not real)
500 Enhancing = (500/25) + (3 * 5) +1 = 36 Phalanx II with 5/5

Real Formula for Phalanx I

Enhancing Magic skill over 300 ((Enhancing magic skill - 300) / 29) + 28
(500-300)/29 +28 = 34

At capped merits Phalanx II is slightly stronger. Still not worth putting five merits in though.

[Llana_Virren]

We're not bards...

...and because we're not Bards, our Enhancing spells should be predominantly self-cast.
A merit-unlock JA that allows a self-cast to be targettable, and another merit-unlock that turns a self-cast to be AOE would be ideal.

But of course, the only spells we currently have of use would be the En-spells and Temper. Temper should be the same category as Haste, imo. RDM can do many things... as long as the spells work, with self-cast only Buffs and Monster-immune debuffs... we're not really contributing in a meaningful way.

Now... let me rant about Enfeebles....

Let's say that Enfeebles fall under 2 types:
"Type A" enfeebles have a variating potency (Paralyze, for example).
"Type B" enfeebles have a static potency which will always take effect when they land (Silence, for example).

Right now, just about ALL of our spells lean towards the "type B" variety, which is why SE has been handing out immunities like candy. It's difficult for me to realistically ask for more enfeebles when SE's choice of "balance" will be to make more NMs immune to those spells, rendering them pointless.

My soluation? Give enfeebles a varient check... obviously you check for accuracy, but also check for potency and duration as separate measurements.

For example:

1. Check for Accuracy.
Enfeebling Skill and dINT, with Magic Accuracy used after this formula as "icing on the cake" to ensure a spell lands. Similar to Bar-effect spells, a Mob's "resistence" to an effect would apply to the Accuracy of the spell only... if it lands, it checks for potency separately.

2-A. Type "A" Enfeebles: Check for Potency.
"Type A" enfeebles, which have varying potency, should have a static duration.
Remove immunities for =most= NMs. Enfeebling Skill, dINT apply to this calculation. Although monster "resistences" calculate for accuracy only, potency would be calculated by additional factors and have a floor/roof potency value:
Paralyze: 10~20% chance of action failure. Duration: 2min.
Paralyze II: 15~50% chance of action failure. Duration: 2min.
(If Paralyze(18%) is on target, and Paralyze II(15%) is cast, it will have no effect).

2-B. Type "B" Enfeebles: Check for Duration.
The other side of the "Potency coin". "Type B" enfeebles have a static potency and should have a varying duration:
Silence: 5sec/90sec
Silence II (imaginary): 15sec/2min

Now, you may NEVER max your potency or duration, especially on an NM... but "some effect" is still better than "no effect"....

[Kristal]

I understand your desire to see some updates to your favorite job,

Favorite job? I don't think there's anyone left that would still called it their favorite job... favorite SUBJOB, sure.

Unless ofcourse... perhaps when they are in a melancholic mood, thinking back of the times when the maximum level was still 75 and enfeebling skill still counted. When the difference between RDM and /RDM was beyond doubt, instead of negligable...

[cidbahamut]

Favorite job? I don't think there's anyone left that would still called it their favorite job... favorite SUBJOB, sure.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_PLjNWOu-Zn0/SqUwRa938NI/AAAAAAAAA24/aXlYy1lmsWg/s400/theres-the-door-now-get-the-%25&@%23-out.jpg

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Favorite job? I don't think there's anyone left that would still called it their favorite job... favorite SUBJOB, sure.

Unless ofcourse... perhaps when they are in a melancholic mood, thinking back of the times when the maximum level was still 75 and enfeebling skill still counted. When the difference between RDM and /RDM was beyond doubt, instead of negligable...

Disagree.

It is still my favourite job, not being able to play it, or it having little to nothing unique to itself doesn't change that. It's my best geared job and my favourite to play as (even if it's only allowed solo now.)

[Ladyofdragons]

Disagree.

It is still my favourite job, not being able to play it, or it having little to nothing unique to itself doesn't change that. It's my best geared job and my favourite to play as (even if it's only allowed solo now.)

Same here Daniel_Hatcher I'm lucky to have a group of friends that occasionally say come rdm other than that my rdm sits^^.

[ManaKing]

We have 3 people that play RDM in my LS with me. No one cares that there is a medium DD that is also going to cure them. Enfeebles are generally a joke, because anything worth enfeebling is probably immune to the idea.

In Voidwatch, I do almost nothing but proc magic because VW is boring and in Aby I don't do anything since you don't have to do anything in Aby if you have more than 3 people. BUT the second we are doing other events like Dynamis, Einherjar, Limbus, or Salvage I show up and actually have a good time.

I'm still not decided about Neo Nyzul or Legion. I don't really have any interest in slowing my friends down since there are time limits that actually matter in those events.

[Ophannus]

Just so annoying that as a RDM,
-We can't Accession our unique major spells, but SCH can Accession our most useful ones.
-We can't use Afflatus:Misery or Afflatus:Solace but WHM can use Convert
-BLMs learn stronger nukes past level 75.
-Our best enfeebles are our merit spells.
-WHM and BLM can enfeeble about 75% as well as RDM with Tier1's they get from /RDM.
-/BRD Ballad is nerfed and /NIN Utsusemi Ni is weakened but /RDM convert and refresh are full strength.
-We learn Cure before SCH and have naturally higher healing skill but don't get Cure V; SCH gets Regen V though. So RDM loses out in healing compared to both WHM and SCH.
-Highest enhancing skill, but we can only enhance ourselves and our strongest enhancing spells, other jobs get as well, or even better.
-WHM is the 'healing specialist', BLM is the nuking specialist and RDM is the "healing and enhancing specialist". So why does the healing specialist get AoE enhancing as well as AoE curing and why does the nuking specialist get AoE enfeebling in addition to AoE nuking? Shouldn't the enfeebling/enhancing specialist get the AoE enhancing/enfeebling? What good does having the highest skill for potent bar-spells and gain-spells if it only affects the RDM itself?
-Our main function is to enfeeble but 90% of NMs heavily resist enfeebling. I haven't seen many NMs that heavily resist nukes or magic damage though.
-Gravity II is our last enfeebling spell. 95% of NMs are immune to it. Even if they weren't nobody kites things anymore and the -40 evasion is minor at best especially with the gear melees wear now, feint, bards and corsairs. BLMs get Meteor which can do 60-80k damage. WHMs get a super buffed Raise spell that has shorter weakened status and bestows Reraise III on the target, SMN gets Odin and Alexander which are both extremely useful, SCH has Regen Vs which can regen up to 80+/tick and all RDM gets are Gain-Stat spells which are all useless except Gain-INT/Gain-MND but only affect us(for the enfeebles which will never land or loltier4 nukes which SCH gets Ebuillence for or BLM has Tier V nukes). All RDM gets is freaking Gravity II. Absolutely worthless. Where's Haste II? Stoneskin II? Dia IV?

Steps that can be taken:
1) Make Blind II, Paralyze II, Slow II, Phalanx II, Dia III into scrolls sold at an NPC.
2) Turn those merits into 'mastery traits' which increases potency/cast/recast/accuracy of Dia/Blind/Slow/Paralyze/Phalanx. Or make traits that augment those spells.

Blind Mastery- In addition to lower accuracy, target's evasion will be lowered.
Reduced Evasion -5 per merit.

Paralyze Mastery- In addition to paralyzing, target's magic evasion will be lowered.
Reduced Magic Evasion -5 per merit

Dia Mastery- In addition to lowered defense, target's magic defense will be lowered.
Reduced Magic Defense -2 per merit.

Phalanx Mastery- In addition to reducing damage, target may occasionally absorb damage.
Chance of absorbing +1% per merit

Slow Mastery- In addition to slow, target's attack will be lowered.
Reduced evasion -5 per merit.

Bio Mastery- In addition to bio, target's magic attack will be reduced.
Reduced Magic Attack -5 per merit.


Bam. This allows us to get stronger spells than our level 75 spells while still having merits pertaining to those spells so we can start getting things like Dia IV, Bio IV, Slow III, Paralyze III, Phalanx III etc. SCH gets Regen V and WHM gets Cure VI, BLM gets TierV nukes, why are RDM stuck on Tier II spells? We need our own line of potent spells!!

[cidbahamut]

-BLMs learn stronger nukes past level 75.

We got Tier IV nukes. Not sure what the problem is there.

[Llana_Virren]

Ok, let's see if I can cut down to some core issues....



-BLMs learn stronger nukes past level 75.


So does RDM. I wasn't aware we had access to Thunder IV when the level cap was 75?



-Our best enfeebles are our merit spells.


I would argue that our best enfeebles are Silence and Gravity, which aren't merit spells. Of course, by saying this, I would have to say that our merit spells lack in accuracy, potency and relevance.



-.../RDM convert and refresh are full strength.


You win on this one... preferably reduced to 50% conversion.
However, /rdm Refresh should be full potency. /whm Regens and Haste are full potency, too. Don't see the problem there....



-We learn Cure before SCH and have naturally higher healing skill but don't get Cure V; SCH gets Regen V though. So RDM loses out in healing compared to both WHM and SCH.


Scholar is not a mage, sorta. Scholar is simply a "student of magic" rather than a "magely mage", which is why the have access to more powerful BASIC spells, but lack a lot of native spells (Haste, Refresh, so on). Additionally, SCH has less MP and less MP Restoration (Convert, Conserve MP, etc) and require subjob consideration.



-WHM is the 'healing specialist', BLM is the nuking specialist and RDM is the "healing and enhancing specialist". So why does the healing specialist get AoE enhancing as well as AoE curing and why does the nuking specialist get AoE enfeebling in addition to AoE nuking? Shouldn't the enfeebling/enhancing specialist get the AoE enhancing/enfeebling? What good does having the highest skill for potent bar-spells and gain-spells if it only affects the RDM itself?


RDM is not, and never has been, a "specialist" of anything. We have access to -some- White Magic, -some- Black Magic, and -some- Combat Equipment. If you really aren't careful, they could take Enspells, Refresh and Gravity away from us, since "true" RDMs of the past didn't have any "RDM only" spells.

However, I will agree that Poisonga, Sleepga, Paralyzega, Silencega, Slowga, Bioga, Gravija (needs to be added), Blindga and Bindga need to be accessible to RDM. Not because "we are masters of [enter school of magic here], but because SE gave the FFXI version of RDM a "A+ skill" in Enfeebling Magic.



-Gravity II is our last enfeebling spell. 95% of NMs are immune to it. Even if they weren't nobody kites things anymore and the -40 evasion is minor at best especially with the gear melees wear now, feint, bards and corsairs. BLMs get Meteor which can do 60-80k damage. WHMs get a super buffed Raise spell that has shorter weakened status and bestows Reraise III on the target, SMN gets Odin and Alexander which are both extremely useful, SCH has Regen Vs which can regen up to 80+/tick and all RDM gets are Gain-Stat spells which are all useless except Gain-INT/Gain-MND but only affect us(for the enfeebles which will never land or loltier4 nukes which SCH gets Ebuillence for or BLM has Tier V nukes). All RDM gets is freaking Gravity II. Absolutely worthless. Where's Haste II? Stoneskin II? Dia IV?


No job has Haste II, so no one needs it. Same to Stoneskin. Dia IV? Take Dia III out of the merit categories before you start asking for a higher tier.

And nice plug in for Arise. Problem is no one's gotten the spell yet... so it's a little too early to be complaining about something that you haven't even seen used yet.

Oh, and hear you mentioned that Gravity is worseless. We'll get back to that in a second.



1) Make Blind II, Paralyze II, Slow II, Phalanx II, Dia III into scrolls sold at an NPC.


No. Stop giving spells to NPCs. Any Spell beyond Lv.80 should be quested and hard-as-hell to acquire.



2) Turn those merits into 'mastery traits' which increases potency/cast/recast/accuracy of Dia/Blind/Slow/Paralyze/Phalanx. Or make traits that augment those spells.

Blind Mastery- In addition to lower accuracy, target's evasion will be lowered.
Reduced Evasion -5 per merit.

Paralyze Mastery- In addition to paralyzing, target's magic evasion will be lowered.
Reduced Magic Evasion -5 per merit

Dia Mastery- In addition to lowered defense, target's magic defense will be lowered.
Reduced Magic Defense -2 per merit.

Phalanx Mastery- In addition to reducing damage, target may occasionally absorb damage.
Chance of absorbing +1% per merit

Slow Mastery- In addition to slow, target's attack will be lowered.
Reduced evasion -5 per merit.

Bio Mastery- In addition to bio, target's magic attack will be reduced.
Reduced Magic Attack -5 per merit.


1. So... Gravity. You think gravity's -40 Evasion is pointless, but you want to add a possible -20 evasion to Blind II... assuming you can land Blind II in the first place, and assuming you cap it, and assuming that -40 and -20 actually add up to -60EVA after formula check....

So is "Evasion Down" pointless or not?

2. All your other Masteries are, let's put this nicely. "Stupid". Here's why:

a. You are applying a "guaranteed" potency (ex. "Reduced Magic Evasion -5 per mert). This is WHY all the NMs we face have flat out immunities... a scaled potency factor is the only modification that would encourage allowing us to have more/additional spells/effects.

b. We have a D skill in Dark Magic, but you want us to have "Bio Mastery"? Saboteur was the compromise for the "mastery" and "proficiency" argument, so I doubt a whole LINE of "Mastery" traits will get anyone's fair shake. Truth be told, other jobs allow these additional effects (other EVA down, DEF down, Absorb effects)... we shouldn't be able to do EVERYONE'S job as good as they can. Or else you'll be on the other side of the fence and they'll complain that RDM/ is more powerful than XXX job! And they'd be right.

c. Slow Mastery... Attack will be lowered? Why not just cast Slow II and Bio II/III? Or are you saying that you want to be able to reduce a target's attack speed by 50% and DEF by 50%? Yeah, that wouldn't be unbalanced at all.



Bam. This allows us to get stronger spells than our level 75 spells while still having merits pertaining to those spells so we can start getting things like Dia IV, Bio IV, Slow III, Paralyze III, Phalanx III etc. SCH gets Regen V and WHM gets Cure VI, BLM gets TierV nukes, why are RDM stuck on Tier II spells? We need our own line of potent spells!!

There are "some" spells that I'd love to have... but right now it is more important for us to be able to use our -current- spell list effectively before we had more straw and hay to the "Scarecrow in a Chapeau."

[Economizer]

You win on this one... preferably reduced to 50% conversion.
However, /rdm Refresh should be full potency. /whm Regens and Haste are full potency, too. Don't see the problem there....

No, he doesn't. Convert is fine except in the minds of the "WHM is the boogieman" squad (which is funny because /RDM is actually the inferior choice to /SCH, and Convert barely makes it competitive at all; basically people who repeat this show how little they actually know about the game). Do Dancers complain that other jobs can use Haste Samba constantly while accusing Ninjas of getting full potency? They don't because they can merit it. Perhaps there should be more gear enhancing Convert gear, traits, or perhaps Red Mage's Convert Recast merits should be better, but having Convert from /RDM isn't what is remotely making anyone better then Red Mage.


Additionally, SCH has less MP and less MP Restoration (Convert, Conserve MP, etc) and require subjob consideration.

No clue what you're talking about here, Scholar has decent amounts of auto-refresh gear, Arts cost reductions, Strategems to reduce MP costs, Sublimation (which gets better as levels increase), Conserve MP, Aspir, and more (many of these are available in enough amounts from /SCH that this sub is amazing for White Mage, again, /RDM Convert on WHM is a joke repeated by people who don't understand the game well).

In all honestly, I don't understand why White Mage is such the boogieman here, we're talking about a highly vulnerable position you'd be vying for. If you can provide "just enough" healing while being able to do anything else, you win the slot. With the cure formula adjustments, Red Mages can now Cure IV for numbers very close to a White Mage's Cure IV... and White Mages with decent gear and capped skill no longer need to use Cure V (and never needed to use the massive MP hog, Cure VI, again another item proclaimed repeatedly by those with lacking knowledge on the game).

That leaves White Mages with very little to edge out , such as slightly better Barspells, Shellra V, Curaga, and for the pedantic, Boost-STAT. Really, for mage parties and lowman the Refresh II, some extra nuking damage would seem like the better choice... the problem is that Bard does Refresh better with better Haste to for covering the extra DD damage in cases where the healing is more negligible, and for cases where the healing is more important Scholar has Regen V, Aurorastorm, and Rapture (you could craft a very convincing argument that Scholar is better at cures then White Mage at this point), while having better nukes, better buffs for mages, and even a better haste under their two hour. So basally, even in cases where you'd be better off with some nuking damage while still needing the occasional cure, Scholars will be taking your job. Considering that Red Mage is more then just a healing job, I'd think being better at both White and Black Magic while on one Job/Sub combination wouldn't sit very well with Red Mages, but apparently White Mage has to be the boogieman.

-

By the way, as said by a Community Rep in this thread, SE isn't currently doing a major revamp of merits right now, they're changing stuff that involve timers. Working with SE with suggestions so improvements would come now while they're working on merits and timers would be suggestions about duration of spells not being based on how many merits you have, or if you were going out on a limb, asking for Convert merits to reduce the timer further. Instead we get suggestions for major revamps of the Red Mage merits when SE clearly says that's not what they're doing right now. It is probably a good idea to have a thread about merit overhauls, it is not a good idea to cry about the current merit changes when the clear goal isn't to magically fix every merit (Protectra, Ancient Magic, merit Bloodpacts) but instead to adjust timers related to merits unless you're asking for adjustments to timers.

I'm sure that if they're listening SE is already well aware of the concerns everyone repeats about major merit overhauls for Red Mage for whenever they get around to it, I'm less certain they know about timer adjustments in line with their stated goals for adjustments that they could be doing for Red Mage merits right now.

[Llana_Virren]

I don't want RDM to have better healing or better nukes... leave that to the actual specialists. All I ask is that the single A+ skill we have actually work the same way everyone else's A+ skills do... more stuff unique to it.

I'm the Enfeebling junky. Everything else is a stash of "meh" and "ok as it is" for me.

Although, I'll say this, very few subjobs act like RDM, insofar as /rdm gives Refresh (/brd requires 2 songs) and a full convert. Does that make it "overpowered" as a subjob? Of course not. But it doesn't seem too fair either that RDM gives more as a SJ than a lot of other jobs do. Of course, with the level cap of 99, and most stuff is being done at an easier-than-necessary level, I shouldn't expect anything less from SE for the remainder of FFXI's tenure.

[Kristal]

By the way, as said by a Community Rep in this thread, SE isn't currently doing a major revamp of merits right now, they're changing stuff that involve timers. Working with SE with suggestions so improvements would come now while they're working on merits and timers would be suggestions about duration of spells not being based on how many merits you have, or if you were going out on a limb, asking for Convert merits to reduce the timer further.

Hmm... taking this one step at a time would probably work best. There's a lot of work to be done, but they got to start somewhere.
Convert Recast merits lowering recast by 60 seconds (from 20 seconds) would allow RDM to use Convert every 5 minutes versus 10 minutes on subjobs, which seems neither overpowered nor imbalanced. If anything, it's more in line with JAs on other (sub)jobs.
Dia III, Bio III and Phalanx II not requiring 5/5 upgrades just to get 100% effectiveness has been suggested countless times, but I guess it can't hurt to mention it again since SE _is_ likely to look at it right now. Being the precursor to the weaponskill merits really annoyed me.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I would love a trait for Convert that reduces the HP cost while still granting the same MP. Similar to DRK's Soul Eater one. Would be nice for the same potency and only loosing half HP.

While the gimp on Subjob is the dangerous levels on HP loss.

[Economizer]

Hmm... taking this one step at a time would probably work best. There's a lot of work to be done, but they got to start somewhere.
Convert Recast merits lowering recast by 60 seconds (from 20 seconds) would allow RDM to use Convert every 5 minutes versus 10 minutes on subjobs, which seems neither overpowered nor imbalanced. If anything, it's more in line with JAs on other (sub)jobs.

My thoughts exactly about them taking one step at a time, I already commented very early in this thread with suggestions that fit, although Convert might not exactly be in the cards, I'll give more thoughts for it in a moment.


I would love a trait for Convert that reduces the HP cost while still granting the same MP. Similar to DRK's Soul Eater one. Would be nice for the same potency and only loosing half HP.

Either of these would work as a fix, although I'm more inclined towards a job trait in general for whatever the fix is... in fact, something like reduces the MP cost so that by 99 if you have both the Mythic weapon (which should get some sort of adjustment so that converting allows your MP to go above max probably) and job traits reduce the HP cost to nil (these job traits would be 50-80ish), and then follow up with timer adjustments that in conjunction with the merits reduce the timer to five minutes (76-99).

It is a bit off topic (especially since I just said we should be focusing on merit timers like SE is), so really if we want this it should go into another thread (and if I made one it would be for adjustments to BLM/RDM/WHM/SCH in general not just Red Mage). That said, Divine Seal gets improved job traits at 50 (still not worth meriting the recast though), and Elemental Seal has some uses with Meteor (although I could see it getting an adjustment such as +Conserve MP or +Occult Accumen), I could see Convert getting some adjustments for main RDM while not trying to fix what isn't broke for /RDM.


Dia III, Bio III and Phalanx II not requiring 5/5 upgrades just to get 100% effectiveness has been suggested countless times, but I guess it can't hurt to mention it again since SE _is_ likely to look at it right now.

People shouldn't give up on trying to get more general enfeeble adjustments when SE comes to the part of their roadmap to adjust enfeebles in general (and other changes too), but definitely gonna trumpet this loud in this thread for something SE could do right now for merit/timer adjustments.

There are plenty of threads for talking job adjustments but for this one, I'd like to clearly ask SE to look into changing the duration benefits on Dia III/Bio III/Phalanx II because it is in line with their merit timer adjustments and is the right thing to do.

[Llana_Virren]

Well, the roadmap shows changes "will" be made (not "under consideration") about monster enfeebling magic resistence.

Of course, this won't happen for another month and change at a minimum... but now would be a good time to start testing the resistences as they stand (testing beyond the "it doesn't stick so it must be immune" theory) so we can see exactly what kinds of change(s) get implimented.

[Duelle]

-WHM is the 'healing specialist', BLM is the nuking specialist and RDM is the "healing and enhancing specialist". So why does the healing specialist get AoE enhancing as well as AoE curing and why does the nuking specialist get AoE enfeebling in addition to AoE nuking? Shouldn't the enfeebling/enhancing specialist get the AoE enhancing/enfeebling? What good does having the highest skill for potent bar-spells and gain-spells if it only affects the RDM itself?Speaking strictly in terms of archetypes, enhancing/buffs are built into healing. This is why healers as a rule can buff their comrades. Red Mage is a hybrid. A guy with black magic, white magic, and a sword in hand. That's VERY different from being a healer.

-Our main function is to enfeeble but 90% of NMs heavily resist enfeebling. I haven't seen many NMs that heavily resist nukes or magic damage though.You're not taking into account that enfeebles as per Final Fantasy are pretty damn OP when looking at the big picture of debuffs relative to MMOs. Again, Red Mage wouldn't have run into this problem if it received magic that actually enfeebled a mob instead of try to shut it down in some way. Reducing potential damage is very different from negating an action (Paralyze). Reducing potential magic damage is very different from locking up spells (Silence). Reducing effectiveness and damage from special attacks is very different from locking those up (Amnesia).

- Where's Haste II?Considering Haste is just as spell, we don't need a II version of it unless it's self cast, scales with enhancing skill and gives us much more than recast reductions and faster auto-attacks.

With all of this said, you can't take the same approach taken to BLM WHM and SCH. Firstly because the job is a hybrid, and if there's gonna be uber spell then I expect uber melee buffs to maintain the hybrid aspect of the job. Secondly because the job is built upon borrowing things from other jobs. That has to always be kept in mind when dealing with RDM.

I'm sure that if they're listening SE is already well aware of the concerns everyone repeats about major merit overhauls for Red Mage for whenever they get around to it, I'm less certain they know about timer adjustments in line with their stated goals for adjustments that they could be doing for Red Mage merits right now.The problem I have with getting something "right now" is that it'd be a band aid on a bullet wound. The merits simply don't do much for the job and thus need to be replaced. I don't think anyone on these forums actually disagrees with that. I also fear getting something "right now" would be used as an excuse to not redo the merits for the job. If SE is going to clean up the mess, I expect them to clean it up the right way and not take shortcuts to get one of the two camps to shup up.

[Sarick]

I'm gonna say this .. Traits traits traits.

First off RDM should have the ability to be as effective with a sword or dagger equipped. There should be a trait that's like fencer on other jobs to improve, cure potency, magic accuracy, magic potency. Right now the role of enfeebler is punished because staves give us more mage benefit then the native weapons we're capable of using.

Magic Fencer, Increases Magic affinity when equipping bladed weapons dependent on the melee skill level of the weapon equipped. This allows the melee aspect without totally hurting the mage part.

As for temper: The most I think temper could get away with as self target is having an aura based effect like the avatars.

Secondly to get a slot in a party these enfeebles we're supposed to SPECIALIZE in should really hurt an enemy. When they stick they should stick hard and not have laughable effects. The enfeebles should make party leaders think this "OMG we must try and get a RDM their enfeebles will make these fights so much easier."

Right now the mentality is "OMG we must try and get a BRD/COR their buffs will make these fights so much easier." This is the cold hard truth and the main reason RDM's aren't given a spot in the harder events.

Until the enfeeble thing happens RDM is little more then a non-specialist that attempts to be everything but ends up being slightly better then something when it counts. Players can poke and prod this job until their fingers bleed. New Job abilities, gear etc. shouldn't be whats fixed. What should be fixed is making the jobs specialized abilities stand out enough that people take notice.

[Llana_Virren]

...[T]hese enfeebles we're supposed to SPECIALIZE in should really hurt an enemy. When they stick they should stick hard and not have laughable effects. The enfeebles should make party leaders think this "OMG we must try and get a RDM their enfeebles will make these fights so much easier."

Traditionally enfeebles are absolutes: Slow = Slow; Paralyze can negate any action, Silence prohibits any Spells, Amnesia (non-accessible) prohibits abilities... the reason why our enfeebles aren't of any significant use is not because they are weak enfeebles, but rather because making an NM difficult requires it to not be so easily inhibited.

Our enfeebles should have a variation to them: if they are easy to stick, they should be hard to proc, if they are easy to proc, they should be hard to stick. Not every spell should work the same way Dia (and Bio) does....

[cidbahamut]

Paralyze can negate any action

Paralyze does not affect TP moves, which is part of the problem.

[Llana_Virren]

Paralyze does not affect TP moves, which is part of the problem.

The Problem is that these Spells are absolutes. Paralyze is the only spell which "might" stop an action, but when it procs, it does stop it; Slow is a guaranteed %, Silence/Amnesia are guaranteed effects, so on and so forth.

If we want our enfeebles to actually matter, the behavior of the spells will have to change in conjunction with monster immunities/resistences.

[Duelle]

Traditionally enfeebles are absolutes: Slow = Slow; Paralyze can negate any action, Silence prohibits any Spells, Amnesia (non-accessible) prohibits abilities... the reason why our enfeebles aren't of any significant use is not because they are weak enfeebles, but rather because making an NM difficult requires it to not be so easily inhibited.Quoting for emphasis. Someone else finally gets it.

If I were adjust enfeebling with the caveat that no new spells are actually added, I would change the following:

Paralyze: Attack Down, Accuracy Down and random chance of preventing an action. Attack down effect stacks with Bio, Accuracy Down effect stacks with Blind. NM's are immune to the chance of preventing an action.

Silence: Magic Attack Down, Magic Accuracy Down and prevents the use of magic for duration of effect. NM's are immune to the "prevents use of magic".

Bio and Dia can now affect the same mob.

It's not much, but it would be a good start, IMO.

[Llana_Virren]

[Some good stuff]

I don't see why Dia and Bio shouldn't stack, although I think that perhaps they should not be a guaranteed % of DEF/ATK down, respectively.

I'm not a big fan of adding effects to spells, because I'm more of a purist in terms of spell names versus effect. However, I think that spells should be adjusted as such:

--Paralyze Chance %: Anywhere from 3~33.33%, but take out immunity (3% Para chance is close enough to immunity, but will still give a -chance- of effectiveness).
--Silence duration: Anywhere from 5~120 seconds... let NM resistence build up over time.
--Slow %: Vary from 5%-50%; same concept as above for potency and duration.
--Sleep: Same as Silence, except (Sleep 5~60sec max, Sleep II 5~120sec max)
--Bind: No change
--Gravity: Movement Speed Reduction: -10~-40%; Evasion down -5%~-25%, conditional to potency/duration checks.
--Etc, etc

Again, the easier to land, the harder to proc; the harder to land, the higher the proc; Immunities should be elemental, not spell-based (ie. Immune to Silence should be immune to all Wind-based spells, effects, and WSs)....

At least, that's what -I- would like to see.

[Sarick]

Traditionally enfeebles are absolutes: Slow = Slow; Paralyze can negate any action, Silence prohibits any Spells, Amnesia (non-accessible) prohibits abilities... the reason why our enfeebles aren't of any significant use is not because they are weak enfeebles, but rather because making an NM difficult requires it to not be so easily inhibited.

Our enfeebles should have a variation to them: if they are easy to stick, they should be hard to proc, if they are easy to proc, they should be hard to stick. Not every spell should work the same way Dia (and Bio) does....

That's ironic you said this because almost all the mobs that have these immunities can be stun locked in some way or another. If seen from outside the box buffs from brd/cor stack and don't resist. RDM is a job that's supposed to help the team by making the monster weaker. Buffs do the same but ,are considered more useful because they don't resist on the party. THe rolls can be bad with an inexperienced player but still potent. It's simple logic, they always make the enemy easier by making the team stronger.

What does RDM have? Spells and abilities that aren't as benefiting the team at the same level. Why?, because they can't stick big stuff so their not nearly as useful. Back when chainspell stun was the rage a lvl mnk75/drk37 could stick it like a lvl drk75/war37. Likewise flash also stuck as mnk75/pld37. Here comes a RDM that's well geared and they couldn't even chainspell native spells with the same effect potency as subjob spell with lower skill. About the only thing that would stick was dias.

On a final note for mobs that need procs, If a mob is weak to it should automatically have 100% accuracy. Potency and duration would still be restricted if skill was low.

[Llana_Virren]

It's not ironic "that I said it."

It's stupid because that's how SE did it.

[Duelle]

I don't see why Dia and Bio shouldn't stack, although I think that perhaps they should not be a guaranteed % of DEF/ATK down, respectively.

I'm not a big fan of adding effects to spells, because I'm more of a purist in terms of spell names versus effect. However, I think that spells should be adjusted as such:

--Paralyze Chance %: Anywhere from 3~33.33%, but take out immunity (3% Para chance is close enough to immunity, but will still give a -chance- of effectiveness).
--Silence duration: Anywhere from 5~120 seconds... let NM resistence build up over time.
--Slow %: Vary from 5%-50%; same concept as above for potency and duration.
--Sleep: Same as Silence, except (Sleep 5~60sec max, Sleep II 5~120sec max)
--Bind: No change
--Gravity: Movement Speed Reduction: -10~-40%; Evasion down -5%~-25%, conditional to potency/duration checks.
--Etc, etc

Again, the easier to land, the harder to proc; the harder to land, the higher the proc; Immunities should be elemental, not spell-based (ie. Immune to Silence should be immune to all Wind-based spells, effects, and WSs)....

At least, that's what -I- would like to see.I'll disagree, mostly because lack of consistency has a hand in making things undesireable. My suggestions keep the caveat in mind, while at the same time addressing the fact that enfeebles aren't exactly useful because, as you and I have been saying, they are absolutes. Having a RDM build up their enfeebles by giving enfeebles stacking effects plays on the supposed specialization of RDM while giving spells normally not used for NMs new use and value.

[cidbahamut]

Paralyze: Attack Down, Accuracy Down and random chance of preventing an action. Attack down effect stacks with Bio, Accuracy Down effect stacks with Blind. NM's are immune to the chance of preventing an action.

Silence: Magic Attack Down, Magic Accuracy Down and prevents the use of magic for duration of effect. NM's are immune to the "prevents use of magic".

No.

Immunities need to be removed in all instances. Giving NMs an automatic pass on being affected by enfeebles(or parts of an enfeeble in your example) is a significant part of what got us into this hole in the first place. Put down the shovel and stop digging.

[Duelle]

No.

Immunities need to be removed in all instances. Giving NMs an automatic pass on being affected by enfeebles(or parts of an enfeeble in your example) is a significant part of what got us into this hole in the first place. Put down the shovel and stop digging.Sorry, but there's a reason other MMOs make bosses immune to effects that shut down normal mobs. This is a case of SE trying to go against the grain and RDM paying the price for it.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Except SE has shown they can subvert that even if they do land by giving monsters unnamed AoE TP moves that require no TP to use.

[tyrantsyn]

In the case of a mob having a immunity to a spell which base element there weak too is the real issue. Example: A mob that's wind base and weak to Ice shouldn't have a immunity to Ice base spells like paralyze. That's just doesn't make sense.