[dev1107] Sange Update - Why? [Archive]

Mac1

04-19-2012, 10:28 AM

Can some one please enlighten me to how changing this improves Ninja as a job in anyway? You are taking a useless merit group and just allowing it to be useless more often.

Throwing tools have not been relevant for Ninja since the job was released and tested on anything important such as the five Sky gods back pre-CoP expansion. The concept of updating a completely failed system this late in the game in hopes to keep the job up to par in the merit category is completely absurd.

In the past two updates Ninja has received they got a decreased timer for Tonko spells and now this, really? It is almost like there is no known direction for where you want to take this job so you decided to just throw in useless add-ons so you can at least say you are making an effort.

Why not take a stance on what the job should be used for and actually apply it in game? With the introduction of all these new notorious monsters that revolve around area-of-effect damage for both weapon skills and normal hits you are obviously saying you don't want it used as a blink tank unless you are fighting outdated weak mobs because just to survive those fights I need to constantly be swapping in -Damage Taken gear (and do I need to even mention the total irrelevance of evasion gear now?). Then Even with the use of constant Fanatic's Drinks with its inability to keep up with any damage dealer of similar skill and gear level on another job unless the small chance that you can full time Innin (which even with that you still don't have a chance at keeping up with top tier players). How do you plan for a Ninja to even maintain hate or just put up equivalent numbers to make them worthy of buffing with a bard or corsair?

So, you destroyed Ninja's survivability against anything relevant, you destroyed its damage output by having to account for these insane defense bonuses on new notorious monsters (and even for older stuff due to huge damage output of Samurais, Monks, Warriors, and Dark Knights), you continue to introduce updates for Ninjutsu which unless you give me 60 more inventory slots I'm not going to have enough room for the gear required to make that useful (besides for proc-ing), and now I can waste the four merits I have in Ninja Tool Expertise and put them into Sange in order to use a job ability to do damage that will probably result in less overall damage then I would be doing from just letting my delay cycle run between hits?

Bravo, and thanks for the useless update once again.

vixin

04-19-2012, 01:02 PM

woot i wont lose shadows :D fork yes!! "i'm really excited this update ^^"

Darwena

04-20-2012, 12:02 PM

Agree 100% with the OP here. Vixin... you think you smater than Wish12oz... It's not the case. You're post never help me improve my skill as Ninja in the game. Wish12oz at least, even if we don't have always the same opinion, help a lot of Ninja (new and vets) with some good arguments, hints and some games mechanics.

About Sange... this is the worst useless merits point since the level cap is removed (and even before). I was a throwing star Ninja back in time. Now, this is just a waste of time, money and space in inventory. Why?

Here few point:

1- To make it effective, you need shurikens, a lot of Shurikens. Here the Shurikens FFXI have to offer:
http://images.wikia.com/ffxi/images/6/6f/KogaShuriken.jpg
Stack: 99. Best effing Shuriken of the game! Only problem: you can't craft them and it a "BCNM" from one of 3 Quest in Aht Urgan area. 1 drop per qst and meed a min of 3. Since lot of ppl already throw rock at Wish12oz when he said just make a WHM mule or some friend for making an empyrean... Neway even if you do it 20 time per day... will take a week to get "ONE" Stack.

Iga Shuriken: [Ammo] All Races
DPS: 2500 DMG:80 Delay:192 Ranged Accuracy+10
LV 80 NIN

Stack: 12. 2nd best DMG output. Can be craftable. problem: Stack of 12. That mean 2 Sange and you throw already a stack, so you need to bring a couple of stack (and not mention Throwing gear huh?!?). So not effective.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060719052307/ffxi/images/c/cc/Fuma_Shuriken.jpg
Stack: 12. Same probleme as Iga.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060424144060/ffxi/images/b/b7/Manji_shuriken.jpg
Stack: 99. The only one that worth bringing. But you gimp you're DMG compare to simply melee mob.

The only thing Sange could be usefull is for TP build and event in that case, With all gear we already need to bring, Melee stay the best option. (I won't prove my point, Wish12oz did it enough time in most post where Throwing is discuted).

Asymptotic

04-20-2012, 08:43 PM

If you didn't notice, they updated every single merit job ability with recast timer varying per merit, just as they announced they would do months ago. They even used Sange as an example for their plans with merit job ability adjustments, and you're just complaining about it now?

Bulrogg

04-20-2012, 11:10 PM

you're just complaining about it now?

I know right.... some of them even said they would quit if SquareEnix listened to ninjas that aren't opposed to different styles of playing and adjusted/updated throwing/sange. But they're still troll'n...

at any rate... I was a little un-impressed with the adjustment. I think they could have added some RACC/RATK/TP gain bonus for each extra merit and capping the ability would remove the shadow penalty.

That being said. Yes, Sange is useless post 75 update other than a means to gain some TP before engaging a mob. But I am hoping SE gets around to fixing the shuriken problems and possibly some nifty new abilities/traits to play with.

It would be pretty cool to have range attacks proc like kick attacks during normal auto-attacks. Where shurkines would be consumed like virtue/magus stones to increase damage.

Asymptotic

04-20-2012, 11:34 PM

scaevola

04-21-2012, 01:23 AM

If they wanted it to be used, they should have given it some sort of enfeebling effect.

Sange (Recast 5mins)
Consumes shadow images to deliver a ranged attack with current throwing ammo. May reset target's TP to 0.
Additional merits: Increase likelihood of resetting target's TP.

Was kind of hoping new Sange would apply a debuff to improve potency of NIN enfeebles, so that 5/5+max hits from Sange would make a NIN enfeeble as strong as a top-tier RDM debuff without saboteur. It wouldn't be enough to make me want to merit Sange, of course, but it would at least give NIN the ability to actually get something interesting out of its merit choices.

RDMs would complain but it's not like it really matters whether two relatively weak jobs are generally comparable in a fairly unimportant area.

Nala

04-21-2012, 05:06 AM

Not that it matters but didnt they add a new shuriken type last update?

vixin

04-21-2012, 07:38 AM

Darwena

04-21-2012, 08:38 AM

They did but the stack size is same as fuma and material's to make them are up in price at the moment. From what SE has done in the past maybe they are restricting the amount of new shurikens being released opposed to letting us have them all at once. If not we got trolled by se sange is nice tp gain shoudl all hits land, "looking on the bright side".

Where you see a good TP Gain? Simply hit with Katana, with haste/DA/DW grant you a TP gain pretty fast. Sange on the otherside need too much gear/space to be just usefull (unless you use Lv48 one, but what the point of gimping you're DPS just to use sange). Also I wont go through the detail of it, some ppl here proved enough than Katana > Shuriken.

Not mention making new Shuriken is just a waste of materials and gils (1 Palladian Brass sheet is kinda pricey for 3 Shuriken (12 if you reeeeealy lucky on HQ+3).

Also Throwing Shuriken, even with sange, you wont make the DMG you could get from simply hitting with Katana. This is sad, but Shuriken throwing aren't the smartest way to play Ninja unless you have billion gils to throw, and if it the case: buy Currency and build Kikoku instead and upgrade it to 90/95, you will gain a great weapon and wont make ppl laughing at you.

vixin

04-21-2012, 09:03 AM

Skirata

04-21-2012, 10:28 AM

Greetings everyone,

Thank you all for posting your views on the announced changes to Sange. And we do value your opinions on these matters here and the Development team will be kept apprised of the suggestions. If you may have noticed several posts have been removed so please do keep your talks on the topic at hand. And refrain from making any further personal attacks on other members. Thank you all for posting your views again and have a great day!

Darwena

04-21-2012, 10:30 AM

ok first of all sange gives around 40 almost tp back second i have kikoku and its 2/5 way to lv 99 augment. Now if yoru complaning about nin being to expensive, "i'm going to act like you and wish12 and give you your own advise" gtfo nin its not a poor man job if you want poor go level drg hell level thf and sub dnc. To piss you off even more i am working on nagi as well and yeah i play ffxi to enjoy it not to let it rule my life like you seem to be doing atm.

40TP back will only occur if ALL Shadow are up AND all Shuriken hit. So unless you fight easy prey, you need gear to lend them all. you get 30TP min if you melee.

I never said Ninja is expensive to play UNLESS you go for Iga Shuriken. Tools dont need HL craft to be done and are cheap to buy/craft. Iga Shuriken, cost a lot to make and stack of 12 is weak.

I just say Sange, for now, is a useless Merits and will still be a waste until SE make Shurikens that are better stack than 12 and don't need to spend 500K to make a stack. I'm not gonna say "YAY! we got new useles stuff"!", sorry.

I'm not "pissed" cause you get better gear than me. If you get a Mythic weapon, congratulation, you earn it. Like all you're post, you're the one who seem pissed cause we don't agree with how you want to play a game. We just say that way isn't the best way and you get mad at us and shoot us some insult w/o any good argument to prove you're point.
About how you or other ppl. play, I don't care unless you make me wait 30 min. to kill a NM when an average of 10 min. is enough to kill it (I know sometime getting reading is a pain).

Sange itself isn't bad, but shadows or not, the real problem is the Shurikens available and the way to obtain them the real problem. And to make Shurikens worth trouble, they should at least do a minimum of DMG.

vixin

04-21-2012, 10:46 AM

ok for startes how you play nin is up to you, if you perfer dw only or hybrid with san spells more power to you. what i dont agree is with you and yes you have attacked me personally and state i disagaree with anyone whow plays different than me is false. I do like shurikens and atm with level cap yeah i admit it is pretty crappy that se makes a lv 80 shuriken after all this time only to be stackable to 12 with a lower base dmg than Koga. In comparison to all Jobs using single hand weapons nin is by far behind, thf, dnc, and blu hav access to dw3 w/o nin allowing them to sub war/drk w/e they perfer and have ja that allow thier ws to do added DA TA or induce crit on a nin crit ws with dex/agi mod or 20% crit dmg bonus . Nin has only been given innin that helps blade hi or blade yu at most our mab spells are no where near using like you and most people agree to add into out dot sicne dmg is inferior to DW. Yet our ws dmg isnt no where near where it should be vs job growth on others similar to us.

Camate

04-26-2012, 08:11 AM

Bulrogg

04-26-2012, 08:20 AM

We have no plans to do so, but this may be the range of stats of a relic shuriken, if it were to be created.

How many likes are required to have plans to do so <.<?

vixin

04-26-2012, 08:48 AM

WOOT this rocks i'm happpy, Sange reborn! :D

ill drop gils on a relic shuriken !

Raksha

04-26-2012, 09:08 AM

One recommendation we have seen from a player is to have DMG 146 and delay 193 (0.760 DPS), but this is definitely impossible. We have no plans to do so, but this may be the range of stats of a relic shuriken, if it were to be created.

So double the delay but keep the high DMG. this would cut the DPS in half while still leaving people with a high damage shuriken.

vixin

04-26-2012, 10:53 AM

guess my "armguard" idea isn't looking so bad now with these new shurikens lol.

Savlyn

04-26-2012, 11:54 AM

New Shurikens are always welcome, as long as they stack higher than 12 and are at a REASONABLE cost to use.

Byrth

04-26-2012, 01:35 PM

Harharharharharharhar you dummies. They're patching Sange because Shihei is obviously the reason people don't use it.

Helel

04-26-2012, 01:38 PM

I hope you can accidentally throw away the relic shuriken (without unlimited shot).

vixin

04-26-2012, 02:09 PM

I hope you can accidentally throw away the relic shuriken (without unlimited shot).

Unlimited shot does not workk for throwing... im sure if they had us invest in all that time to make a weapon it would be unlimited ammo or a despenser like idea rfom conquest points arrow's.

wish12oz

04-26-2012, 03:48 PM

One recommendation we have seen from a player is to have DMG 146 and delay 193 (0.760 DPS), but this is definitely impossible. We have no plans to do so, but this may be the range of stats of a relic shuriken, if it were to be created.

Camate, I'm going to type something complex here, please try to understand it and then show it to the DEVs.

Let's compare the damage output of shurikens and katanas. Your "relic shuriken" would have 146 damage, and 193 delay, and you're all struggling to not include this in the game, as you think it would be "overpowered." My statement to you is, even at these stats, this shuriken would not be worth using.

Damage is calculated as (Weapon damage+fSTR) * pDIF

We find weapon rank cap by dividing the base damage by 9, so 146/9=16, 16 is our weapon rank, weapon rank+8 is the fSTR cap, 16+8=24.

So now we have our max fSTR available, and we know the ranged pDIF cap is 3, so lets swing things entirely into the shurikens favor and say both of these values are capped.
(Weapon damage+fSTR) * pDIF
or
(146+24)*3=510
So every time you throw this shuriken you do an average of 510 damage.

To figure out TP gain, rather than do a bunch of math, I put on my normal NIN TP set, and went out and bought a stack of 193 delay shurikens from the tenshodo NPC, then hit 10 tiny mandragoras with them, this gave me 55 TP, so the shurikens were giving me 5.5 tp/hit. I then repeated this with my katanas, and gained 4.5tp/hit with them.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c243/r5n/nin1.jpg
Standard NIN TP set, except maybe for the katanas, but these are the best Katanas available to most people, a Lv. 99 Magian and a Lv. 90 Kannagi.
AF3+2 hat, Rancor Collar, Suppanomimi, Brutal earring
Thaumas Coat, AF2+2 hands, Eponas ring, Rajas ring
Atheling mantle, Twilight belt, AF2+2 pants, AF3+2 shoes.

Now for delay, normally when counting ranged attack delay, the delay on the ranged weapon is the time it takes to fire, and the delay on the ammo is the time before you can shoot again, since shurikens are ammo only, I had to do a bit of testing and found that the 193 delay on the shurikens counts as the weapon delay, and there is no extra delay between attacks added. Now how does a ranged attack actually work?
From the wiki:
Ranged delay is about twice as fast as melee delay : 110 delay = 1 second
Ranged weapon delay is the only variable affecting the total delay.
Ranged attack delay is divided into 3 phases :
1. Pulling out ranged weapon, aiming, and shooting : this time span is calculated by : Weapon Delay / 110. A successful Rapid Shot activation reduces the aiming time (the time between pulling back the string and actual firing of the shot) to 0.
2. After shooting → putting back ranged weapon : This delay usually takes 1.7 second to 1.8 second. However, occasionally, it can take fluctuate from 1.6 second to 1.9 second
3. "Free" phase : at this time span, melee timer is un-paused. The minimum time this delay can have is 1.1 second

So the delay between shot of ranged weapon is :
Delay = (Weapon Delay/110)s + 1.7s~1.8s + 1.1s

So for ranged attack delay, it will be
(192/110)+1.75+1.1=4.59

So the totals for this 'supposedly' super awesome relic shuriken given capped fSTR and pDIF are 510 damage and 5.5 tp every 4.59 seconds.

Now lets look at those Katanas.
Since one has 55 damage, and one 50, we'll use 52.5 as the base damage, and we'll also ignore aftermath hits, which only work on Kannagi itself, not the offhand, and not the shurikens just to continue to push things in throwings favor whenever we can. Meele pDIF caps at 2, and we'll assume your ranged attack gear has like 200 STR in it and your melee set doesn't have any and your fSTR is 0. So to determine average base damage per hit its back to the formula of
(Weapon damage+fSTR) * pDIF
or
(52.5+0)*2=105
So every swing we do with our katanas is going to average 105 damage.

Now lets factor in Double attack, Triple attack, Quadruple attack
10% DA from /war, 5% from Brutal earring, 2% from Twilight belt, 3% from Atheling mantle, 3% from Thaumas coat, 3% from Eponas ring, 3% TA from Eponas, 3% from Thamus coat, and 3% QA from Thaumas coat.
Total is 3% QA, 6% TA, 26% DA

To account for this, you have to know the stacking order, which is biggest to smallest. In 100 attacks, the QA would fire on 3 of them, leaving 97 attacks TA could fire on, which would give 5.82 TAs, and then leaving 91.18 attacks DA could fire on giving you 23.7 DAs. So you would take these numbers and multiple them by whatever the extra values are on the extra attacks rounds, for the 3% QA you get, you multiple 3*3, for the 5.82 TAs you multiply by 2, for the 23.7% DAs you get you multiply by 1.
((3*3)+(2*5.82)+(1*23.7)/100)= #of extra attacks you get per hit.
((9+11.64+23.7)/100)
(44.34/100)
0.44

We determined you get 2 attacks per attack round with Katanas, since you're dual wielding, and each attack is actually 1.44 attacks, so you get 2.88 attacks per round with Katanas, at 105 damage/hit average, this is (2.88*105) 302.4 damage/round, and tp gain is 4.5 tp/hit, so it's (4.5*2.88)=12.96 tp/round.

Now to factor in time, how much time it takes to make those hits.
I'm not going to break the haste down into its exact amounts and explain it, I'm simply going to tell you 25% gear haste is 24.7%~ haste and tell you the haste spell is 14.6%~ haste, and use those values.
39.3 Haste Total.
Dual wield: 35% DW on traits, 5% earring, 5% hat, 7% pants.
52% DW Total.

The actual delay on the katanas is 210 and 201, add these together to get the delay per attack round, 411. Now to factor in haste and DW.
411*.607=249.4 (delay after haste)
249.4*.48=119.7
This tells us that our real delay between attack rounds with katanas is 119.7. Knowing that just under 59 delay for melee weapons = 1 second real time, we can determine the amount of real time this comes to. 119.7/59=2.02 seconds per attack round with katanas.

So now we know the katanas do 302 damage, and gain 12.96 tp every 2.02 seconds. To compare this to the shuriken we're going to make the time match. 4.59 seconds was the shuriken time, 4.59/2.02=2.27222772277227722, we'll drop this to 2.27 to continue with our trend of pushing everything into throwing favor. So now, if we multiple every value the Katanas have by 2.72, we get the numbers they would put up in the time 1 throw would take.
302*2.27=685.54
12.96*2.27=29.4

Now we can compare the damage and tp gain of this "super amazing relic shuriken" to some run of the mill Katanas.
Katanas do 685.54 damage and gain 29.4 TP in the time it takes you to do 1 throw with the relic shuriken, which does 510 damage and gains 5.5 tp.

If we factor TP into WS damage, we can determine damage from TP and add that to the melee damage to get the total damage. If your average WS does 1500 damage, which is kinda low for Blade:Hi with capped crit rate and pDIF, we can determine damage gained from TP. 29.4% of 1500 is 441, 5.5% of 1500 is 82.5.
441+685.4=1126.4
82.5+510=620=592.5

Conclusion:
In the time it takes to commit 1 throw with the "super amazing Relic shuriken" you do 592 damage actually throwing it, and 1126 damage if you swing some gimp katanas.

Your "overpowered Relic shuriken" under the best possible circumstances, does half as much damage as some gimp katanas under normal circumstances.

Question:
Why does the DEV team waste their time with this crap? Do they not understand the basic fundementals of their game and how it works or what? Tell them to add a shuriken with 350 base damage, and 193 delay if they want it to match gimp katana damage output, 400 base damage if they want it to match GOOD katana output, and 450 base damage if they want it to be worth using and wasting tons of space for a throwing gear set. And if this stuff is consumable, it better be very, very cheap to make, and stack to 999 via quivers or whatever, or it's still not going to be worth the time or effort to use.

And lastly: they can take their 146 damage shuriken and delete it, it's not worth anything.

Seiowan

04-26-2012, 03:48 PM

I noticed how there wasn't a mention of increasing stack sizes for shurikens. Wouldn't it be better all around if ammunition (ALL ammunition) was just set in stacks of 99 so players can actually carry a decent amount around without needing to flood half their inventory with them?

It would also help if these things didn't require lengthy quests or fights just to obtain a single shuriken (Give us a stack of them at the very least!)

Washburn

04-26-2012, 04:19 PM

Unlimited shot does not workk for throwing... im sure if they had us invest in all that time to make a weapon it would be unlimited ammo or a despenser like idea rfom conquest points arrow's.

Zephyr, East Wind, Arctic Wind, Antarctic Wind, Stygian Ash.

...and @ wish12oz...
If they did that they'd need to add throwing Weapon Skills, which would most likely require a THF to be behind the mob so you can call a pitch (fastball, slider, knuckleball etc.)

wish12oz

04-26-2012, 04:31 PM

...and @ wish12oz...
If they did that they'd need to add throwing Weapon Skills, which would most likely require a THF to be behind the mob so you can call a pitch (fastball, slider, knuckleball etc.)

They NEED to do what I said to make throwing useful, adding throwing WS's won't make throwing useful unless there is a high base damage shuriken that is cheap/easy to get and a good WS that is worth using over Blade:Hi/Shun. Even then though, you wont throw shurikens for TP unless you're half retarded. Adding a new throwing WS that is better than Hi or Shun creates its own problems as well, and SE already said multiple times they cannot add throwing WS's anyway so who cares about them.

EDIT:::
The point of my previous post was to show that gimp katanas under bad circumstances do twice as much damage as their "relic" shuriken would under the best possible circumstances, and I succeeded, because throwing is trash.

vixin

04-26-2012, 04:43 PM

[QUOTE=wish12oz;309456]They NEED to do what I said to make throwing useful, adding throwing WS's won't make throwing useful unless there is a high base damage shuriken that is cheap/easy to get and a good WS that is worth using over Blade:Hi/Shun.

Since where were nice ws "cheap" and "easy" to obtain? Anything worth getting in this game usually rquires times and effort im sure you would agree, as for level of difficulty that ranges from person to person. last i checked was they said it was impossible to add a shuriken with that amount of base dmg and "IF" notice the key word "IF", it was impleated it would be a relic shuriken. long story short dont get worked up on something that was not confirmed.

wish12oz

04-26-2012, 04:51 PM

last i checked was they said it was impossible to add a shuriken with that amount of base dmg and "IF" notice the key word "IF", it was impleated it would be a relic shuriken. long story short dont get worked up on something that was not confirmed.

Last I checked, a 146 damage shuriken was trash and shouldn't be added to the game so the DEVs can spend their time doing useful stuff, and that was about an hour ago. Long story short, adding useless stuff is a waste of time, and takes people away from doing useful things. So I think we should tell the DEVs why it's useless since they seem to think it would be overpowered and amazing. Apparently you seem to think this too, but hey guess what, 350 damage is the real low end number a shuriken needs to have to be useful, of course I'm going to run into a thread where they said 146 is amazing and overpowered and yell at them for being dumb.

Helel

04-26-2012, 07:34 PM

Ophannus

04-26-2012, 09:00 PM

Even when you throw those 255DMG winds, their damage isn't even that great lol.

SpankWustler

04-26-2012, 09:20 PM

Since shurikens are such an essential part of Sange, I wanted to share some information as there have been some requests for higher shuriken damage and delay adjustments.

　
•Explanation of shuriken parameters
The following is the basis for shuriken parameters:

-Lv48 shuriken (DMG 63, delay 192)
DPS is 0.328
-Lv60 shuriken (DMG 72, delay 192)
DPS is 0.375

With a level difference of 12, the DPS is increased about 0.047, so the DPS increases 0.0039 for each level increase…

-Lv80 shuriken (DMG 80, delay 192)
DPS is 0.416

DPS is increased 0.041 from Lv60 to Lv80, so the DPS increase for each level increase is lowered to 0.00205. If we continue to use the 0.0039 DPS increase for each level increase, the DMG rates would be:
-DMG 87 at Lv80
-DMG 102 at Lv99

“DMG 102 at Lv99” is a value for shurikens that can be synthesized. If this becomes loot from a NM, it may be difficult to obtain, but I believe “DMG 118 at Lv99” could be attainable. (Regarding Iga shuriken, I believe it is necessary to reevaluate DMG values)

One recommendation we have seen from a player is to have DMG 146 and delay 193 (0.760 DPS), but this is definitely impossible. We have no plans to do so, but this may be the range of stats of a relic shuriken, if it were to be created.

Also, regarding cost, it would not make sense for a shuriken to deal more damage than ammunition for RNGs that cost more, so we would like to reevaluate this aspect.

Because throwing stuff is not affected by Haste and other delay-reducing abilities, the DPS values for any given shuriken are irrelevant and the concept of a shurikens functioning as a "low delay" ranged attack is a joke. There are no low delay ranged attacks, Development Bros. No one who understands basic statistics is going to actually throw things in the place of just swinging his or her katanas and expect it to do more damage.

The easiest change to shurikens and Sange both would be to just triple the delay of a new level 99 shuriken compared to it's predecessors while keeping the damage similar, make this new shuriken stack to 99, and change Sange from a buff into an instant attack to bypass ranged attack delay. There's still the job ability delay, which sucks for anyone who enjoys hitting things with things, but these changes would be an improvement and maybe make Sange almost relevant every once and again. Maybe!

This would provide some hope of increased TP gain and damage from Sange rather than an even break at absolute best, and it's not like anyone is going to throw shurikens normally for efficiency purposes so the horrible damage/delay ratio would be irrelevant.

Bulrogg

04-26-2012, 11:38 PM

Some people still think that we are insisting on just standing back and tossing shurikens at mobs. A great use for Sange is at the moment of a mobs repositioning. When the mob is out of your melee range your DPS is 0. Sange that mob back into place.

-- at any rate, I am looking forward to the Sange, Range attack delay and shuriken adjustments.

If Relic shurikens are out of the plans for now, what about a magian shuriken?

I also had a thought about stack sizes and throwing WS.

What if you created an item to go in the ranged 1 slot such as a scroll, tool kit or something and changed all shuirkens to 99 stack ammo. Then would it be possible to have a throwing WS using the ranged 1 item like a bow/gun to consume the ammo?

Maybe you could even have enchantment on the scroll or tool kit to imbue the shurikens with an additional effect.

And I'd still like to see a "throwing attack" added to out melee rounds in the likes of a monk's "kick attack".

vixin

04-27-2012, 03:06 AM

Chamaan

04-27-2012, 04:28 AM

Ya know I've always felt that sometimes the devs don't understand the game, but this is the first time I've ever completely felt like they're straight up mocking us. A relic shuriken? Seriously?

Karbuncle

04-27-2012, 05:29 AM

If you're standing back, You're better off investing in a Ninjutsu set. At least Ninjutsu stacks to 99. plus, Shuriken's "Sweet Spot" is Melee range, SO they actually expected you to be meleeing when you threw shuriken.

Kinda funny in a "They have a fundamentally flawed view on their own game" sort of way.

P.S: Relic Shuriken was obviously not intended to be shown as a possible item, But a comparison to what they think the DMG/DEL of the suggested Shuriken would be more related too. Honestly, Wish said it the best anyone could, SHuriken are an entirely flawed concept with no real use at all. I like Spanks idea of Sange too.

Bulrogg

04-27-2012, 05:38 AM

As is, it is flawed. Look at the road map. Ranged attack delay adjustments.

Albeit hopeful thinking but it looks like SE is serious about this aspect of Ninja. I look forward to seeing what they have mapped out.

hideka

04-27-2012, 07:30 AM

dude, relic suriken, relic bullet, relic arrow, relic bolt. infinite uses. now.

wish12oz

04-27-2012, 05:11 PM

Some people still think that we are insisting on just standing back and tossing shurikens at mobs. A great use for Sange is at the moment of a mobs repositioning. When the mob is out of your melee range your DPS is 0. Sange that mob back into place.

Provoke does the same thing, and doesn't require extra gear/wasting gil.
Also: play ninja better and this wont happen on the mobs you're actually suppose to be tanking.

the more peopel complain about throwing /sange will work in favor for peopel who do like it, the reason being is they are so against a ja and ra they then are to blind to notice they are sending "their input" on it which is why se is taking intress in it now you can call me what every you feel like just know it was becasue of you SE is giving use what we want. ON that Note tyvm :D

I like when you type responses to things, because half of your post makes no sense, and it's fun to pretend to be a detective and try to solve the puzzle of what you're trying to say.

SpankWustler

04-27-2012, 07:10 PM

the more peopel complain about throwing /sange will work in favor for peopel who do like it, the reason being is they are so against a ja and ra they then are to blind to notice they are sending "their input" on it which is why se is taking intress in it now you can call me what every you feel like just know it was becasue of you SE is giving use what we want. ON that Note tyvm :D

It's not the ascetic of the animation or idea of tossing something at something that bothers anyone. It is the amount of damage done in exchange for what is given up to do that damage.

Throwing could be changing to Bro'ing, complete with Milwaukee's Best Light ammunition, a shotgunning animation, and physical damage produced by wind-shear from a collar popped at the speed of sound. Everyone who thinks throwing is goofy would feel the same way about Bro'ing if the damage, delay, form of delay, and other objective factors remained the same as throwing.

If the Development Bros somehow give throwing and shurikens some kind of niche, great. However, it is important to realize where throwing stands currently and what would be needed to give it a niche.

Bulrogg

04-28-2012, 12:05 AM

Randnum

04-28-2012, 01:50 AM

Provoke does the same thing, and doesn't require extra gear/wasting gil.
Also: play ninja better and this wont happen on the mobs you're actually suppose to be tanking.

At this point you ARE just being obnoxious. Provoke works, sure, no disputing that, but if you never tank anything that hate resets you on NIN, and are completely sure that Sange damage (which is not even the same type of enmity) is 'worthless' in that situation, you're the one who needs to 'play Ninja better', unless you're basically saying 'you are never supposed to be tanking anything with hate reset as Ninja without help'.

wish12oz

04-28-2012, 01:56 AM

At this point you ARE just being obnoxious. Provoke works, sure, no disputing that, but if you never tank anything that hate resets you on NIN, and are completely sure that Sange damage (which is not even the same type of enmity) is 'worthless' in that situation, you're the one who needs to 'play Ninja better', unless you're basically saying 'you are never supposed to be tanking anything with hate reset as Ninja without help'.

Do I really need to do the math to prove sange isn't worth using AGAIN?
Melee attacks are better than sange.
Melee attacks are better than throwing.
Melee attacks are better than the ninja elemental damage spells.
Any questions?

Also; If something has hate reset you're doing it wrong by either A. Having anyone other than a single WHM accumulating enmity with the NIN by curing the NIN, in which case 1 provoke is enough to bring the mob back to the NIN after the hate reset move or B. Not having a cotank who isn't horrible.
In which way are you doing it wrong in your example?

Randnum

04-28-2012, 02:04 AM

Mk, got it, you ARE saying that playing NIN better means 'having co-tank and having no one else pulling hate on hate reset mobs'. Sorry for that, I honestly didn't think that your definition of average or substandard play was that.

Also it's in the other thread but I have already mentioned your own math doesn't show that, it shows specifically that at a certain point of multi attacks per round throwing is always outpaced by melee damage. It does not in fact show that Sange, particularly not in the moment where the enemy moves (are you really claiming there's a difference in overall shift between doing the Sange damage, and the time it takes for the enemy to get back into your melee range after the Provoke?) is not worth using.

But yes, I am completely admitting to being bad in the sense that sometimes I tank things alone and sometimes the BLM with me takes hate after a Reset because they have more hate than the BRD (note I'm not supporting Sange with THAT admission because I don't use it then, though I probably should).

Sorry for that, carry on.

wish12oz

04-28-2012, 02:44 AM

Also it's in the other thread but I have already mentioned your own math doesn't show that, it shows specifically that at a certain point of multi attacks per round throwing is always outpaced by melee damage. It does not in fact show that Sange, particularly not in the moment where the enemy moves (are you really claiming there's a difference in overall shift between doing the Sange damage, and the time it takes for the enemy to get back into your melee range after the Provoke?) is not worth using.

It's not 'extra attacks' that make ranged attacks worthless, it's haste, and the way ranged attacks work. There's an inherent 2.5 second delay when committing a ranged attack beyond the actual delay of the weapon involved, add using a Job Ability on top of that and theres 4.5 seconds+weapon delay. If you want to talk about real gear and what you actually have to work with, during this 6.5~ second period of time you require to use sange, then the 2-3 seconds after where you recast utsusemi, you would of done 3x+ more damage just meleeing, and this can be easily proven, and I've done it before on these forums in other threads.

If the mob runs away think of this, provoke is used instantly and brings it back, there's an inherent 2 second delay in there, but that is the time it takes the mob to run back to you anyway. It's going to be 2 seconds before you notice the mob has run away and hit your provoke macro, and its going to take 2 seconds for it to get back to you, at this point you begin meleeing. Or, you use sange, which takes 2 seconds, then attempt to throw shurikens, which takes 4.5 seconds, and the mob is now 4+ seconds away from you, then after you throw, it will take the mob 4+ second to get back to you. I've already shown the damage potential of gimp katanas in subpar conditions in 5 seconds is 1126 damage, and we're talking about 8+ second here, gimp katanas are gonna do 1700+ damage, and good katanas under normal circumstances will be 2500+ easy. Is your sange going to come anywhere close to that considering the trash shurikens you have to work with, and the lack of room for a good ranged attack set? And you haven't even recast utsusemi yet and lost meleeing time for that.

Darwena

04-28-2012, 04:06 AM

Was about to reply the same thing, but Wish12oz was faster than me. XD

Hate reset = voke. You can get a bad luck and a BLM who try to proc yellow will cast a big nuke in same time... But if you know how to play Ninja and if BLM know as well, you will voke, he will Enmity douse and thing will be ok. Even casting Hojo or Kyrayami: Ni is faster than Sange/throw. Neway, if you serious about Tank as Ninja, you surely have 1 or 2 pieces for Enmity boost for Voke macro. (Add Yonin on that and if you can't still get aggro back...)

Bulrogg

04-28-2012, 06:41 AM

vixin

04-28-2012, 07:13 AM

Darwena

04-28-2012, 11:03 AM

Again, you are assuming everyone is always /war. People choose to utilize other subs for various reasons. While /war is best in terms of DMG and tanking it is not always what is /sub'd at the time. So when the person is not /war they use the tactics they have available. This leads to SE updating things like Sange and Ranged Attack Delay (on roadmap for Autumn 2012).

Personally I think Sange should be like Quickdraw instead of having to use the /ja and then /ra.

Well, you said in previous post that Sange can be use to get hate, if you need hate, that mean you tank. If you tanking with another support job than /WAR, you do it wrong. He assuming ppl have /WAR cause this is pretty much the only support job to use as NIN in a Party/Ally. Don't gimme crap about /DNC. If you come in a PT with me as NIN/DNC, trust me we will ask you politely to change support job or simply come on another jobs. They are plenty ninja that pretty much know how to hold hate as Ninja and Sange isn't the solution (Even more /DNC).

Edit: beside that, if you relying on Sange to get Aggro on a unacurated /Ja (hitting with all shadows is not 100%, Ask ranger with Barrage) Vs a /ja that actually have a Accurate amount of enmity, please, don't say you are a tank...

Bulrogg

04-28-2012, 11:46 AM

Perhaps you misunderstood my post?

I did not intend to imply that Sange is a great tool for hate generation in regards to tanking big events. I said "a great use for Sange is at the moment of a mobs repositioning."

In fact, I've said in the numerous threads we're not discussing Ninja tanking events. We are talking about making use of tactics that are available to a job when you are in conditions that are less than optimal. It appears as if you and 12oz are just trying to complicate things.

We have clearly agreed that /war is the best DMG and tanking /sub for Ninja.
Now, the rest of us would like to continue to discuss the updates SE has is sight for Sange and the 2012 road map. Anything else you and 12oz have to say will only be regarded as trying to provoke a problematic response.

EDIT- apparantly my spell check thought I was talking about a show from early 2000.

vixin

04-28-2012, 12:33 PM

i think above all should shurikens become as good as they were in the past people are weiry of the money they would be investing i think above all. If that is the case most mats im sure would be easy to obtain and finding a cafter to assist wwhould not be hard.

wish12oz

04-28-2012, 05:35 PM

Looking at the road map, ranged attack delay adjustments are coming and cheers to SE for bringing them.

I'm glad SE isn't pandering to the "only one way to skin a coeurl" school of thought, allowing for more flexibility of the job.

Unfortunately for you, SE does think there's only one way to skin a coeurl as they've announced they're fundamentally changing the way ranged attacks work, which is what I've said needs to be done all along to make them even remotely useful. As for if it proves to be successful or a waste of time, we will have to wait and see, but I'd bet money on it still not being useful and not changing anything about the flexibility of NIN since SE has repeatedly shown they know nothing of the mechanics of their game. The "relic shuriken" is just the most recent example of this.

Again, you are assuming everyone is always /war.

Good players are always subbing warrior on NIN, unless they're just moving their character around a bit to do random stuff and are subbing BLM for warp.

People choose to utilize other subs for various reasons. While /war is best in terms of DMG and tanking it is not always what is /sub'd at the time. So when the person is not /war they use the tactics they have available.

Want me to do math to show Sange shouldn't be used even when you don't have provoke? Look at my previous post, and wherever you see "Provoke" switch that to "Kurayami: Ni" Casting Kurayami: Ni will do the same thing Provoke would, and bring the mob back to you so you can melee and do more damage than some gimp ranged JA you seem to be so obsessed with.

People choose to utilize other subs for various reasons. While /war is best in terms of DMG and tanking it is not always what is /sub'd at the time. So when the person is not /war they use the tactics they have available. This leads to SE updating things like Sange and Ranged Attack Delay (on roadmap for Autumn 2012).

People using subjobs other than /WAR leads to SE making changes to the game mechanics for ranged attacks. Is this seriously what you just said? If anything is making SE change the mechanics of ranged attacks it's everything I've ever posted about them and why they're so horrible combined with the gimps crying because they want to waste gil and lose more inventory.

I did not intend to imply that Sange is a great tool for hate generation in regards to tanking big events. I said "a great use for Sange is at the moment of a mobs repositioning."

And I just proved it's not useful for that either, so stop trying to say it is now.

In fact, I've said in the numerous threads we're not discussing Ninja tanking events. We are talking about making use of tactics that are available to a job when you are in conditions that are less than optimal. It appears as if you and 12ozmouse are just trying to complicate things.

It's funny how the only thing you have to fall back on is name calling. But seriously, I proved Sange isn't useful for anything at all. You can stop trying to say it is now.

We have clearly agreed that /war is the best DMG and tanking /sub for Ninja.
Now, the rest of us would like to continue to discuss the updates SE has is sight for Sange and the 2012 road map. Anything else you and 12oz have to say will only be regarded as trying to provoke a problematic response.

The way I see it, you're the only one here resorting to name calling and trying to start a fight. All I've done up to this point is respond with answers about game mechanics and how they work. If you think that's trying to start a fight you have some serious issues. Well, I guess my "I like detectives" comment could maybe be seen as mean spirited, but that doesn't change the fact that I was saying the truth about how poor someones ability to convey their thoughts is, and speaking the truth isn't the wrong thing to do, ever.

i think above all should shurikens become as good as they were in the past people are weiry of the money they would be investing i think above all. If that is the case most mats im sure would be easy to obtain and finding a cafter to assist wwhould not be hard.

When you say shurikens were good at some point, I can only pray you mean at low levels, because they were never good at any other point in time.

You're wrong, people don't care about gil, gil is easy to make, the problem with throwing should it be worth using is the new gear set you will have to carry around. A good NIN already has a few TP sets, a few WS sets, PDT set, MDT set, maybe an evasion set, tools, tool bags, proc weapons, foods, echo drops, other meds. Adding a quiver of shurikens, the stack of shurikens you're currently using, and a set of ranged attack gear for when you easily cap acc, and a set for when you need lots of acc is going to be a major hindrance to good ninjas, and is the main reason shurikens actually need to do MORE damage than katanas to be useful. If they do the same amount of damage, or less damage, it won't be worth the gil or inventory to have them around.

What makes you think any new shurikens SE adds will even be remotely reasonable to acquire? Is it their track record for adding shurikens that are reasonable acquire? lol....

Bulrogg

04-28-2012, 09:47 PM

There is a presence of players [EU/JP/NA] that choose to use sange and throwing as needed; cheers to SE for continuing to update/adjust that aspect of the job.

I look forward to autumn to see what adjustments are in sight for ranged attack delay. I'm really hoping their only targets aren't RNG and COR.

I'd like to see an adjustment if possible to make Sange activate like Quickdraw.

wish12oz

04-28-2012, 11:51 PM

There is a presence of players [EU/JP/NA] that choose to use sange and throwing as needed;

Originally I was going to write something else, but seriously, name me 1 instance, ONE, where throwing is at all useful. Can you even name one?

I also require you to PROVE it is useful in whatever instance you name.

vixin

04-29-2012, 04:05 AM

nice mile long post 12oz but one thing, You are Wrong remember that kido.

and for that one instance where "Throwing" is useful you remember Dark Ixion right?

Darwena

04-29-2012, 05:37 AM

nice mile long post 12oz but one thing, You are Wrong remember that kido.

and for that one instance where "Throwing" is useful you remember Dark Ixion right?

Why throwing will be better than melee on Ixion? He said prove it... you not proving me I should bring Shuriken to beat that NM over melee him...

vixin

04-29-2012, 05:42 AM

he asked when was throwing ever useful i did state a reason if your pre aby which it sounds like let me speed you up to date only way you can ever claim is ixion is utlizing throwing skills to land stygi ash on him i think that plays a huge part there, not to mention back at lv 75 when using winds on sky gods.

SpankWustler

04-29-2012, 05:58 AM

and for that one instance where "Throwing" is useful you remember Dark Ixion right?

Because the damage dealt by the thrown Stygian Ash didn't matter, pretty much anyone on any job using something to aid with accuracy worked. During that dark and miserable time when I was fighting Dark Ixion every day, I remember some dude playing two Preludes on himself and claiming the awful thing with his Bard.

Certain jobs worked better, Ranger rather than Ninja probably worked best, but this answer is obviously out of the Ninja-related context of Wish's question. Claiming Dark Ixion was more of a Ranged Accuracy check than a Throwing Check, unless an individual had never skilled Throwing up at all.

This is one step above saying that throwing matters because it's a great way to make a monster suprisingly mad from a very long distance, when it doesn't even matter if the attack lands or not.

While we're giving clever answers, spooking Dark Ixion required no Throwing Skill or Ranged Accuracy whatsoever, and doing that to spite another group was usually more fun than fighting the thing.

vixin

04-29-2012, 06:26 AM

While we're giving clever answers, spooking Dark Ixion required no Throwing Skill or Ranged Accuracy whatsoever, and doing that to spite another group was usually more fun than fighting the thing.

gonna need some proof becasue nothing you said has any credit untill you do so.

SpankWustler

04-29-2012, 08:34 AM

gonna need some proof becasue nothing you said has any credit untill you do so.

Sorry. English probably isn't your first language so I guess my weird sarcasm doesn't make a lot of sense. I'll explain.

The last paragraph refers to simply walking up to Dark Ixion, prompting the monster to run away and vanish, meaning that no one gets to fight it for a little while. A useful tactic when you wanted no one to fight Dark Ixion for a little while because it's funnier that way.

This is an entirely separate process from claiming Dark Ixion and fighting it, the process to which every paragraph above the last referred. To be very brief, the last paragraph was a joke and "spook" can mean to frighten a horse.

Does that make more sense?

wish12oz

04-29-2012, 09:57 AM

I remember DI, more specifically I remember claiming it by hitting it with stygian ash on my warrior, without any ranged accuracy gear and about 100 skill, and doing it around 20 times and never missing. You didn't need throwing skilled up or gear to hit DI with an ash at 75, there's no way you do now. On top of that DI as of right now is completely useless, hitting sky gods with winds is also useless. Neither of these things matters and neither proves throwing is at all useful, especially since the smart thing to do with both of them is to have a RNG use unlimited shot and throw the ash/wind so you didn't lose it, and we're talking about NIN. So you have now managed to prove if you want to fight DI a RNG should have a stygian ash, please give one example of when throwing is actually useful now, and if possible, could you try to make it be something a NIN should be doing instead of a RNG?

nice mile long post 12oz but one thing, You are Wrong remember that kido.

It's funny how your only response to me is "you're wrong." That statement needs more to it though, if I was actually wrong about anything so far you would say "You're wrong because ......................" and continue from there with a well thought out explanation of why I'm wrong. Because you have not done this, you have no credibility with your statement. I suggest you elaborate on this topic and explain what I am wrong about, and why I am wrong about it.

EDIT::::

he asked when was throwing ever useful

I asked for an example of when throwing is useful right now. Not when it use to be useful, or when it could theoretically be useful in the future.

EDIT2::::
You guys that love throwing so much are aware that by claiming throwing is at all useful right now, you're only hurting yourselves right? I could care less if throwing is made good, but you obviously want it to be good. Saying its useful now and trying to convince the DEVs of that will not get you throwing updated in a way to make it good, you'll only get a slightly better outcome than you have now, and it will still be useless and you'll still be ridiculed for being throwing ninjas. Saying it's good/useful is not what you want to be doing. Just take the hit, admit you know throwing is horrible, and you only use it because you think it's fun to RP Naruto, and we can all move on and maybe you'll get the update you so desperately want.

Darwena

04-29-2012, 04:50 PM

I would add... WTF Sange will do with claiming Dark Ixion, since the OP talk about Sange? Oh right, he asked for "when throwing is usefull". Kinda sad the only purpose Naruto fans had to offer is "claiming a NM when any job can do it" and "getting aggro when you don't have /WAR to voke"...

Edit: No disrespect Naruto fans. Myself I read that manga.

Nala

04-29-2012, 06:04 PM

Bleh sad part is i've been a fan of naruto since ages before it hit america, it has never compelled me to want to use throwing on ninja, further more the american dub is trash not that i even watch the anime anymore filler pisses me off too much. (i read the mangas)

Edit: you @#$% throwing fantatics stay on nin specific threads

This is a RANGER thread (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/22900-DEVXXXX-2012-Road-map?p=310437#post310437)

either way any delay adjustments should effect any ranged attack.

Bulrogg

04-30-2012, 02:47 AM

I was a fan of Final Fantasy years before I new about Naruto but I still find it hilarious that some think calling people Naruto fans will insult them. Wouldn't a Joe Musashi dig be more in-line? After all Shinobi was the game I remember being shuriken laden.

I would assume any ranged attack delay adjustment would cover any ranged attack. But I also assume SE can do whatever they like, if they leave Ninja and Throwing out, that's their call.

At any rate, I too am trying to--
get a good conversation going on the matter; perhaps they will take our suggestions on board... or at least respond. -- about Ranged attack delay.

I had some ponderings about it in the other thread but I thought they where more Gun/Bow oriented.

vixin

05-01-2012, 08:51 AM

Provoke does the same thing, and doesn't require extra gear/wasting gil.
Also: play ninja better and this wont happen on the mobs you're actually suppose to be tanking.

I like when you type responses to things, because half of your post makes no sense, and it's fun to pretend to be a detective and try to solve the puzzle of what you're trying to say.

i like how you take intress in my post, i think you found a relationship lol

saevel

05-04-2012, 01:38 AM

wish12oz

05-04-2012, 02:07 AM

Hmm thinking about it. How would it be if Shurikens were not consumed on use? As in Ninja always had a 100% unlimited shot effect on throwing? Would make those R and R/EX Shurikens actually useful for something.

Did you seriously just type this and fail to read/understand every post I made in this entire thread proving throwing was trash unless you can use 350+ damage shurikens? Adding unlimited shot to a sub 100 damage throwing star isn't going to fix anything except all the gil the RPs lose playing Naruto.

Bulrogg

05-04-2012, 02:58 AM

Darwena

05-04-2012, 12:22 PM

The delay isnt all the problem about it, time to get the weapon out (shuriken) make the throwing motion, get the melee weapon back... All that make too much time. Haste and double attack don't stack either. Now with all the Dual attack, Double attack and haste gear, meleeing still the best option and I would rather improve Dual wield Via merits than Sange.
Sange could be only used in, well, no situation at all... (you didn't prove that Sange is usefull yet, sorry).

I would like Dual Wield Merits instead of sange. If you don't agree Dual wield merits could be more effective than Sange, well, I don't know what to say more with all argument we provided VS pro sange user, who never proved me yet, I should invest Merits in that useless job ability.

Karbuncle

05-04-2012, 01:40 PM

w12o- while you may have some very useful information, you also have a very rude and snobbish way of presenting it. And yet you question why most posters just ignore it? Perhaps you could improve your presentation, unless your intentions are merely to be problematic.

That being said, it's my opinion SE would never grant 100% unlimited shot. Nor would it really improve throwing. The problem exist with the delay that occurs after ranged attacks. Until SE addresses that throwing is only used by some and even then only in certain situations.

They do have ranged attack delay on the roadmap for autumn this year; well have to see what they come up with then.

if the ranged attack delays allows you to attack while throwing, It could drastically change NIN, Otherwise it will be ultimately pretty useless still.

And i can relate to Wish, Sometimes being rude is the only way people will listen to you, If you're nice all the time, People will walk all over you. Sucks, but sometimes people only understand force. Sad truths ;|

Oh, and Wish has posted on why Throwing is flawed well over a dozen times across several different NIN Threads and people still don't get how stupid and useless it is because they'd rather stick their head in the sand and ignore math >_>

Bulrogg

05-04-2012, 11:22 PM

We're not saying "it's better than melee", we've coincided to that over a 'dozen times across several different NIN Threads'. What we are saying is in some situations, because it is a tactic given to the job and when other conditions are not optimal we use it as is, when needed. We have listed those situations and have been rudely told that we are wrong for not having more friends, a proper event linkshell, WHM mules in tow and all the best gear the game has to offer.

SE is continuing to update Sange and ranged attack delay; cheers to them. Throwing will never surpass melee DMG, but that is no reason to forgo adjusting tactics available to a job. Look at what they did with the circle abilities; I have no doubt SE can make Sange/Throwing useful if they so choose.

Again, let me be clear, we are not arguing math. We are arguing that not everyone in this game has access to: more friends, a proper event linkshell, WHM mules in tow and all the best gear the game has to offer. So we work with what we have.

If you had a fish to cook and only two sticks would you eat raw fish and complain that those using the sticks to start a fire are doing it wrong because they don't have a flint-rock and fire starter kit, a lighter and some kindling, a Coleman grill, or a personal chef to do it for you? Because that's what it sounds like when the "you are wrong" sermon begins that has also been preached 'over a dozen times across several different NIN Threads'.

Bulrogg

05-04-2012, 11:37 PM

if the ranged attack delays allows you to attack while throwing, It could drastically change NIN, Otherwise it will be ultimately pretty useless still.

I am not familiar with COR, but does Quickdraw allow for continued melee during the shot? I wasn't sure if Sange was changed to mimic Quickdraw how that would effect the ability. At any rate it would seem like a plus as there would be no delay from having to make a ranged attack and just using Sange.

Assuming that the upcoming ranged attack delay adjustment are on the after side of the ranged attack, perhaps an ability similar to the rapid shot trait that would causes the ranged attacks to fire instantly would benefit the ability/skill. Or even a merit something like Desperate Blows but for /ra only.

Darwena

05-05-2012, 01:13 AM

Which situation? beside pulling a mob (and voke work better and faster btw)... Stop being so stuborn and maybe you wil start getting better gear and will be able to play NIN more often than playing with ninja star...

NIN is the easiest job to gear. Iga set +1 (and even +2) can be done solo/duo easily. Magian Katana are all soloable and you can even make friend in the process. Iga necklace can be soloed... now Supranomimi, Raja? Soloed by any BST. You want to play NIN? well the least you can do is to gear it properly.

You don't have any friend? I'm sorry to hear that, but maybe consider leveling BST/DNC and able to enjoy solo play better?

Note: I want Dual Wield Merit!!!

Bulrogg

05-05-2012, 01:36 AM

You nor any other cult-ninja is in a position to tell anyone how to play or enjoy the game. It's as much our right to play our style as it is as much yours to do your own thing.

People use Sange and Throwing; get over it. Stop being so problematic and maybe you can make some coherent post and get your DW merits.

On that note- I am certain that Dual Wield merits will upset a lot of folks that aren't ninja. So unless it ends up in an 'Other' category, good luck with that.

Assuming that the upcoming ranged attack delay adjustment are on the after side of the ranged attack, perhaps an ability similar to the rapid shot trait that would causes the ranged attacks to fire instantly would benefit the ability/skill. Or even a merit something like Desperate Blows but for /ra only.

wish12oz

05-05-2012, 07:14 PM

What we are saying is in some situations, because it is a tactic given to the job and when other conditions are not optimal we use it as is, when needed.

To bad those situations DO NOT EXIST.

We have listed those situations

You have yet to list 1 situation where doing a ranged attack is at all useful.
Outside of pulling a lame NM you shouldn't be fighting anyway.

Again, let me be clear, we are not arguing math. We are arguing that not everyone in this game has access to: more friends, a proper event linkshell, WHM mules in tow and all the best gear the game has to offer. So we work with what we have.

The gimpest pink ninja is the world with a swift belt and AH katanas and no buffs will do more damage than the best throwing NIN in the game could hope to achieve with the best possible throwing sets ever, minuets and chaos roll to cap attack, whatever that snapshot roll is, the best food and the relic shuriken mentioned earlier.

Do I really need to do this math too? I already proved gimp katanas and a decent melee set in the worst condition beats the relic shuriken in the most favorable condition, and it does DOUBLE the damage. Maybe I should do this comparison again and use real stats for available shurikens and gear so you can see that the real difference is about 5x not 2x.

For the 20th time:
There is no point in the game after lvl 72 where throwing could ever be considered even remotely useful. AH katanas and pink gear is better.

Bulrogg

05-05-2012, 11:11 PM

At this point throwing is no where as useful as it used to be, but it clearly obvious SE has ranged attacks in their target for updates.

All we are trying to do is--
get a good conversation going on the matter; perhaps they will take our suggestions on board... or at least respond.

Feel free to keep insisting that it's useless and never going to be updated. But SE is already are updating Sange and by that alone you said if it happened you would quit the game. You even said I could quote you on that. It appears that you sir aren't true to your word. So you could at least quit being problematic in threads we are trying to hold conversations with Community Reps/Devs. You do not speak for them; let them tell us "it's not going to happen" and I'll stop offering suggestions how it could be improved upon....

and then [FOR the 20th time:] you can stop going around telling people they need more friends, better linkshells, all the best gear currently available in-game, how to spend our time, our dime and over all how to enjoy the game.

Darwena

05-06-2012, 01:49 AM

Prove me where we are wrong. Ninja need melee upgrade, not a "pulling" upgrade. Ninja need better Merits than useless one we have now (San spell is a joke, I would rather merit and improve enfeebling Ni than the silly San spell...) Sange is completly useless. The only merits that worth is: Subtle Blow and Ninja Tools Expertise. Do those Merits improve in anyway our melee skill: NO!

Even Shuriken thrower, you will be melee 90% of the time (don't tell me you will stay away and throwing, throwing and trowing, I don't believe you have enough gils to do that). So Improving our melee skill via merit IS the solution to NIN gimp DMG compare to MNK, THF, WAR and SAM one (I probably miss some other like BLU but let focus melee).

wish12oz

05-06-2012, 02:56 AM

and then [FOR the 20th time:] you can stop going around telling people they need more friends, better linkshells, all the best gear currently available in-game, how to spend our time, our dime and over all how to enjoy the game.

It's funny how I just said the worst pink ninja in the game with AH katanas will out damage the absolute best throwing ninja ever possible, and you still seem to think you need good stuff to melee.

The gimpest pink ninja is the world with a swift belt and AH katanas and no buffs will do more damage than the best throwing NIN in the game could hope to achieve with the best possible throwing sets ever, minuets and chaos roll to cap attack, whatever that snapshot roll is, the best food and the relic shuriken mentioned earlier.

And again, you can do whatever, but don't go around telling people stupid crap like "throwing is useful" when it's not useful, and we won't have a problem. You have yet to name ONE instance where throwing is AT ALL useful. You just stand on your high horse and claim it is, but have yet to offer ANY proof. Your denial and continued efforts to support throwing is only going to hurt you in the end when SE see's you saying throwing is good, and doesn't update throwing to be good, they update it to continue being complete trash. When that happens I'm going to gloat about it and make fun of you, and I can't wait.

EDIT::::

But SE is already are updating Sange and by that alone you said if it happened you would quit the game.

That sounds like something I would say, but it's part of an entire overhaul of merits, not just a sange update.

Daniel_Hatcher

05-06-2012, 02:59 AM

Why don't you just let people want what they want. Seriously!

Disagree fine, but you really don't need to reply to EVERY post telling them they're wrong.

wish12oz

05-06-2012, 03:01 AM

Why don't you just let people want what they want. Seriously!

Disagree fine, but you really don't need to reply to EVERY post telling them they're wrong.

They reply to every post I make claiming throwing is useful, and offer no proof whatsoever, so ya, I do need to respond to them.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/22707-dev1107-Sange-Update-Why?p=309446&viewfull=1#post309446
How they can look at this and think throwing is useful is just beyond me though. It takes an extra special form of headinthesand to be able to do that.

Daniel_Hatcher

05-06-2012, 03:37 AM

They reply to every post I make claiming throwing is useful, and offer no proof whatsoever, so ya, I do need to respond to them.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/22707-dev1107-Sange-Update-Why?p=309446&viewfull=1#post309446
How they can look at this and think throwing is useful is just beyond me though. It takes an extra special form of headinthesand to be able to do that.

Then are you not just banging your head against a brick wall?

Bulrogg

05-06-2012, 03:54 AM

problematic-ninjas are problematic: "we're not for it, so we will bash every post you make and ignore your replies unless we can twist it and multi-quote it to our advantage"

These forums are for feedback and suggestions, that's what we are trying to do. I just dislike that in order for the Reps/Devs to see these feedback/suggestions they have to weed through all those negative, and in most cases purely problematic post, only because some chose not to use a tactic available to the job.

wish12oz

05-06-2012, 04:07 AM

Then are you not just banging your head against a brick wall?

I am, but it's fun to bang your head into a wall sometimes, especially when you're right.

I just dislike that in order for the Reps/Devs to see these feedback/suggestions they have to weed through all those negative, and in most cases purely problematic post.

Then quit posting and the DEVs won't have to read your trash. Or better yet, make useful posts instead of constantly making assertions with no proof. I provided proof throwing is garbage and refuted every single claim that throwing was useful by proving with math (what this game revolves around) that throwing was not useful. Why don't you provide some proof throwing is useful, and we can have a real discussion, since that's what you seem to want so badly.

"we're not for it, so we will bash every post you make and ignore your replies unless we can twist it and multi-quote it to our advantage"

Since you're all for not ignoring stuff I post, which you do all the time.

You have yet to name ONE instance where throwing is AT ALL useful. You just stand on your high horse and claim it is, but have yet to offer ANY proof.

Why don't you name 1 instance where throwing is useful? You've never done this.

Bulrogg

05-06-2012, 04:25 AM

Your questions have been answered before, it is not my fault that you clearly have a problem with reading comprehension. You just skip over the posts you can't twist around and ignore them. It is not for me to repost what you clearly didn't fully read the first time in your attempt to bash and belittle us with your insults. This leads me to wonder if you suffer from some sort of selective mutism or are just over all hard-headed. Wait, I know the answer to that since you already said that you enjoy banging your head against a wall... all that banging has even made you delusional to think that you are correct and that your feedback and suggestions take precedent over anyone else in cases where you disagree.

We're here to make suggestions and offer feed back, not to make problematic post and discourage other members from posting which you clearly are.

Have fun with your frothing rebuttal so you can have the last word, we're off to see The Avengers.

--and cheers to SE for updating Sange!!

wish12oz

05-06-2012, 04:28 AM

Have fun with your frothing rebuttal so you can have the last word, we're off to see The Avengers.

Welcome to yesterday. (Last week in the EU)

Now if we could just get your ninja to 7 years ago so you'd know throwing was bad, and get you to read what people post, so you'd know nothing was ever posted proving throwing to ever be useful for anything, we'd be set.

EDIT:: You should not hide your FFXIAH info too, that way everyone can see the quality of your ninja and judge your comments for what they are, from someone who is bad at FFXI.

vixin

05-06-2012, 07:18 AM

i think you lost all credibality Wish12 you have distasteful sportsmen ship.

SpankWustler

05-06-2012, 07:48 AM

you have distasteful sportsmen ship

http://0.tqn.com/d/cruises/1/0/L/Q/4/Oasis_Sports_Deck.jpg

I agree the colors are a bit garish, and I'm not sure why the only pools are wave-pools, but I don't think Wish owns one of these.

Karbuncle

05-06-2012, 07:49 AM

i think you lost all credibality Wish12 you have distasteful sportsmen ship.

Wish is still more credible to me than some slack-jawed twit who repeatedly says the same crap and provides 0 Evidence or even situations where his logic would be remotely correct. This is hypothetical of course and not directed at any 1 single poster.

Too mean? Maybe, But in a world like FFXI, its incredibly baffling some people would think throwing can be useful for NIN. Math is very strong proof, Its not just something people use to look smart or elitist despite the common rabbles attitude toward educating themselves.

I think i said this in the last Throwing thread... What it comes down too is, If you enjoy throwing on NIN? Goood for you, Go enjoy throwing, Merit sange, and Toss some Shuriken, I'm not here to judge you. But accept its terrible and useless.

The problems come from those trying to say its useful, and spreading disinformation to any NIN who would come into this thread and read that tripe. Spreading lies with no proof or evidence to support your claims and not even being able to name a single situation where Throwing would increase a NIN's Melee output is a plain waste of time and just rude to anyone coming here for real information.

At least if they accepted the fact Throwing was absolute horse-sh*t maybe it would get a meaningful update. Shoving your head in the sand and telling everyone Throwing is awesome is only hurting them more in the end. I mean, SE Thinks a D:120 Shuriken (Or w/e) is so broken it'd be akin to some Relic Shuriken, they obviously have absolutely no clue how useless their little ninja stars really are.

Which is scary considering they're the ones who made the game and have to know how Dual wield works and how throwing is completely screwed by the attack delay during and after use.

vixin

05-06-2012, 08:33 AM

Wish is still more credible to me than some slack-jawed twit who repeatedly says the same crap and provides 0 Evidence or even situations where his logic would be remotely correct. This is hypothetical of course and not directed at any 1 single poster.

Too mean? Maybe, But in a world like FFXI, its incredibly baffling some people would think throwing can be useful for NIN. Math is very strong proof, Its not just something people use to look smart or elitist despite the common rabbles attitude toward educating themselves.

I think i said this in the last Throwing thread... What it comes down too is, If you enjoy throwing on NIN? Goood for you, Go enjoy throwing, Merit sange, and Toss some Shuriken, I'm not here to judge you. But accept its terrible and useless.

The problems come from those trying to say its useful, and spreading disinformation to any NIN who would come into this thread and read that tripe. Spreading lies with no proof or evidence to support your claims and not even being able to name a single situation where Throwing would increase a NIN's Melee output is a plain waste of time and just rude to anyone coming here for real information.

At least if they accepted the fact Throwing was absolute horse-sh*t maybe it would get a meaningful update. Shoving your head in the sand and telling everyone Throwing is awesome is only hurting them more in the end. I mean, SE Thinks a D:120 Shuriken (Or w/e) is so broken it'd be akin to some Relic Shuriken, they obviously have absolutely no clue how useless their little ninja stars really are.

Which is scary considering they're the ones who made the game and have to know how Dual wield works and how throwing is completely screwed by the attack delay during and after use.

you are in no position to say who is wrong or right everyone pays to play remember that your not above anyone

wish12oz

05-06-2012, 09:11 AM

you are in no position to say who is wrong or right everyone pays to play remember that your not above anyone

And here we see the flawed basis of your entire argument. To you, it's your $12.95 and you can play however you want to. Which is entirely true, and we don't care how you play the game, that isn't something that concerns us. Our problem is the outright lies you spread when you say throwing is useful. I posted MATH that proves beyond a doubt throwing is garbage and should not be used for damage, and isn't useful for anything else either. I even went so far as to explain in great detail every single thing I did to make it very easy for anyone to understand if they read it two or three times. This is a statement of fact, and just how it is. It has nothing to do with how you play the game, its just math proving throwing isn't useful. If you want to go ahead and use it anyway, that's fine, it's not negatively impacting me in any way. I only care when you come around and start saying throwing is good, because I can prove it's not good, and you have nothing to refute that argument, so stop trying to.

EDIT:::
So in conclusion, when something comes down to math, and only math, it's easy to tell who is right or wrong. I did that math and posted it. Anyone who reads it and understands it now has every right to tell you that you're wrong, not just Karbuncle, when you come around and start saying throwing is useful. If you want to do math that opposes my findings, go right ahead, I would love to see. But until then, you have to accept that my answer is the right answer, or you need to look at my math and correct any mistakes I may have made and post the new answer, those are the only options available to you at this time.

EDIT#2:::
Just to make this even more simple.
Here's how everyone against you see's the argument in this thread.

We're saying 2+2=4, and you're screaming that it's 5 because you pay money to play this game and you want it to be 5. No matter how much money you pay, you can never change the fact that the answer is 4. No matter how much you desperately want it to be 5, it will never be 5, and anyone who understands the answer is 4 has the right to tell you it's not 5.

Karbuncle

05-06-2012, 10:08 AM

you are in no position to say who is wrong or right everyone pays to play remember that your not above anyone

Did you even read the third paragraph? I'm assuming not, Reading is hard, just like Booklearnin and Math right? Maybe i shoulda put more pictures of cats to keep those with short attention spans reading...

I said, If you enjoy playing NIN Throwing Shuriken? wonderful, Go Naruto It up all you want, You can play the game however you want, in fact, I advocate on more than one occasion that the game is suppose to be about fun. But heres the kicker, "Playing how i want" ends when you spew your misinformation on a public forum. You can't claim "I do it for fun" when you come parading around about how awesome it is, provide no proof to your claim, and continue to try and ignore any amount of evidence shown to refute your claims that Throwing is useful.

You can go RPShuriken all you want, But posting how good it is when its actually really awful, on a forum where a lot of new users would probably go first, is detrimental to the playerbase. They should know if they want to be a good NIN, throwing has 0 place, Its something fun you can do on the side, But in no ways helps the job in a meaningful positive way.

I don't have any cat pictures, so hopefully you read past the first paragraph this time.

vixin

05-06-2012, 11:06 AM

Did you even read the third paragraph? I'm assuming not, Reading is hard, just like Booklearnin and Math right? Maybe i shoulda put more pictures of cats to keep those with short attention spans reading...

I said, If you enjoy playing NIN Throwing Shuriken? wonderful, Go Naruto It up all you want, You can play the game however you want, in fact, I advocate on more than one occasion that the game is suppose to be about fun. But heres the kicker, "Playing how i want" ends when you spew your misinformation on a public forum. You can't claim "I do it for fun" when you come parading around about how awesome it is, provide no proof to your claim, and continue to try and ignore any amount of evidence shown to refute your claims that Throwing is useful.

You can go RPShuriken all you want, But posting how good it is when its actually really awful, on a forum where a lot of new users would probably go first, is detrimental to the playerbase. They should know if they want to be a good NIN, throwing has 0 place, Its something fun you can do on the side, But in no ways helps the job in a meaningful positive way.

I don't have any cat pictures, so hopefully you read past the first paragraph this time.

good for you and dont quote anyone if your going to be a lazy ass, i never said shurikens out dmg dual weild i said sange with high level shurikens do give good numbers and dmg out put. happy "kitty" now lol?

Darwena

05-06-2012, 11:33 AM

What good number? What for you a good number? Cause honestly 5/5 Hyoton with Futae go between 950-1250 easily and sitgly more in abyssea w/o MAB atma or specific gear beside Iga +2 set. I'm sure I can boost it up easily with few gear, and Tsurara are so cheap to make/buy... Add the fact than Hyoton: San recast is 60 sec w/o fast cast and Futae is 3 min.

In other word, beside RP, Shuriken and Sange can't even catch San spell. Add on that that San spell HAVE utility VS high resistant melee mob and those are usualy weak to magic (ninjustsu). You want good number? build a magic attack set and go with Ninjutsu instead, you wont catch melee but at least, you would do some decent number at lower cost.

Also, the "I pay to play so I can do anything" isn't a good argument to prove you're point.

vixin

05-06-2012, 11:54 AM

I / L I K E / TO / S E E / Y O U ' R E / P R O O F

SpankWustler

05-06-2012, 12:51 PM

I / L I K E / TO / S E E / Y O U ' R E / P R O O F

Maybe this will help. Well, unless you're asking us all to slough off this filthy flesh and become proof immaculate as we transform into glorious grain alcohol. Sucks that I can't do the latter, it sounds like more fun.

Anyway, moving on.

The "excess delay" of ranged attacks is noted here (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Delay). It is also noted here (http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Delay) although not in as straightforward a style.

This is relatively old information so the actual testing may well be in places that no longer exist, otherwise I'd try to dig it up because I'm just that bored.

Wish used the formulas for ranged and melee delay to figure out the "value" of a "super-duper" imaginary Relic Shuriken mentioned by the Development Bros in this very topic (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/22707-dev1107-Sange-Update-Why?p=309446&viewfull=1#post309446).

vixin

05-06-2012, 01:25 PM

Maybe this will help. Well, unless you're asking us all to slough off this filthy flesh and become proof immaculate as we transform into glorious grain alcohol[/URL].

look up local AA metting if you need help
U Mad Bro ?

Nala

05-06-2012, 01:37 PM

Holy crap you F'n retarded throwing fanatics, the more you argue for the viability of throwing the more you pump SE's head full of it being fine as is and thus screw yourselves.

You want to go waste gil being sub par fine that's your prerogative, however all you keep doing is polluting the thread with misinformation that could be detrimental to other players, demanding math that has already been provided, and got all around butt hurt because you know you're wrong.

Give up and get out.

Bulrogg

05-06-2012, 02:14 PM

Wow. Lots of blah blah blah.

Recap: No one is arguing math. No one is saying Throwing is uber. What is being said is that some ninjas choose to use it. It is also being said that there is an interest to see it updated in hopes SE can make it useful again. But isn't that pretty much what is going on in every thread regarding updates/adjustments? So why doesn't everyone just give up and get out; in fact let SE close the forums and just go back to adjusting what they like and let us be happy with what they give us, or not.

--nice tags btw; if only I was clever enough to have thought of using them as an insult first, because that's never been done before. :rolleyes: but seriously Joe Musashi would have been a better tag than Naruto. :p

vixin

05-06-2012, 02:24 PM

i support Bulrogg on that comment all the way /raise fist "we love you" :]

SpankWustler

05-06-2012, 03:37 PM

Recap: No one is arguing math.

This is true. Except, sadly, one guy. A guy who works for SE. In fact, Wish's really freaking long post about math and shuriken damage under ideal conditions was in response to that rather than anything another player posted.

It's really sad, actually.

This whole topic is basically "I don't enjoy this because it doesn't perform well." or "I enjoy this in spite of it's lacluster performance, which isn't that bad." or "I might enjoy this if it performed better." or "Don't do this whether you enjoy it or not; it performs very badly and your group has to abide by your actions."

The response from the Development Bros? "This is how a super-duper Relic Shuriken we will never make would perform," and it turns out even the shuriken of their dreams would be very disappointing. Similar to the man or woman of one's dreams in real life, which is the awful thing that I play videogames to escape!

No wonder this topic went to a dark and unhappy place after that.

wish12oz

05-06-2012, 03:51 PM

Wow. Lots of blah blah blah.

Recap: No one is arguing math. No one is saying Throwing is uber. What is being said is that some ninjas choose to use it.

i said sange with high level shurikens do give good numbers and dmg out put.

People are arguing that throwing is good. Now stop saying they aren't.
As for Vixin, can you prove it's useful? Show me the math behind why it gives 'good numbers and dmg out put.' And then compare that to meleeing. After you manage to do that please present your findings, until then, go away because you have added nothing of value to this thread. As you yourself put it:

I / L I K E / TO / S E E / Y O U ' R E / P R O O F

I've already shown why throwing is terrible, please enlighten us as to how sange is useful.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/22707-dev1107-Sange-Update-Why?p=309446&viewfull=1#post309446

EDIT::
Seriously, everything you need to know to do the math is in the post I linked, except 1 thing, whenever you use a job ability there's a 2 second delay where meleeing stops. You have to combine this delay with the normal throwing delay that occurs to determine time required to use sange.

vixin

05-07-2012, 01:46 AM

your cheap invest in koga shuirkns or iga for crying out loud.
this is my sange marco:<head>Zha'go's Barbut
<body>Koga chainmail +1"with augment"
<hands> Ninja tekko +1
<legs> Byakkos haidate with crit augment
<feet> i keep in movement speed shoes due to fact i usuallly pull but i use iga to get the extra shadow
<back> Terebellum mantle
earr1> mooonshade augment based on tp
earr2> clearview earring
ring1>raja ring
ring2> bellona's ring
<neck> houyi's gorget
now for you answer no i never miss sange shots since as you can see i have hefty range acc bonus and my skill is caped at lv 99 nin dmg on mobs that ranget "Very Tough" in The Boyada tree and Gustva Tunnel is usually 934-1.3k using koga shurikens as i said befor in an earlier post i had bough 3 stacks of them off a person "how they got them i dont know your gyess is good as mine". theres my proof and the tp gain is affected by stp armor it give you 34-40 tp depends if i have stp amor marcoed in at the time and yes innin works , no dmg is still the same at 4 yalms as well at 20-23.4 yalms theres my proof.

<reedit> my sub was war and i used 5/5 sange merits to test out koga body pior to the info release on range attack bonus per merit on koga body.
103 str
139 dex
90 agi
attributes with all merits and armor combined

wish12oz

05-07-2012, 01:55 AM

Hearsay is not admissible, I expect math. Show me the VIT and DEF of those mobs and the damage calculations for the average Sange would do. Then repeat the process, but do it for whatever katanas you have on, and then compare the two. Don't come in here and say "I did 1200 damage to this mob." That's not going to cut it. Wanna know why? Cause I can claim anything too, watch this. "If you meleed those mobs instead of using Sange you would of done between 2,000 to 2,200 damage and gained 60 TP." See how that worked? I just made stuff up and posted it, why should it be believed at all? It's the exact same thing with your post above mine. PROVE its worth using, don't throw out random numbers and expect people to believe you.

vixin

05-07-2012, 02:33 AM

wish12oz

05-07-2012, 03:31 AM

first of all i dotn have time to figure out snaggle tooth puks , and the other vt mobs in boyada tree the grounds tomb says level range 100-103 you can do the math since your so good at it and for katanas i have kikoku and the nte one and finally i dont count the oh wow i hit 2k sange as a awalsy i only factor in the ones that i do on average so on average i do 934-1.3k

You're eyeballing this. Use a parser and do it 5000 times and post the parse or do the math.

you can assume more are critical hitting due to innin than the 934 which are not and second your math figures are so misleading if i use lv 40 katanas no shit they would do less than lv 71 shurikens.

Lvl 40 Katanas would actually beat the "relic shuriken" the DEVs spoke of.

If you don't have time to figure it out the mob stats for those puks, then don't use them. Pick arbitrary mob stats and use that. Let's say the mob has 100 VIT, and is lvl 99 and has 400 defense. OK? Now do the math and prove sange is worth using on this mob. Hell, you can even give it the piercing bonus of +25% damage puks would get throwing shurikens at them that katanas wouldn't get because they're slashing damage, it doesn't matter, because katanas will still win.

vixin

05-07-2012, 04:02 AM

wish12oz

05-07-2012, 04:08 AM

Just to shut you up cause I tire of this boring conversation and you can't figure out how to do the math anyway.
It takes 2~ seconds to cast utsusemi ni, 2~ seconds to use a job ability and in the previous post we determined the time required to make a throwing attack with shurikens is 4.59 seconds.
2+2+4.59 = 8.59 seconds, for 5(?) throwing attacks worth of damage and TP gain.
Koga shuriken is 88 damage, if the mob has 100 VIT and your base STR is 100 (close enough) it looks like you add 15 STR, so this will give you 3 fSTR, we'll just say you're using good food and berserk as well, since you got warrior on sub, this should put your attack around 900 and give you a pDIF of around 2.25
(88+3)*2.25=204.75 damage per throw, 5.5 tp per throw.
1023.75 damage per sange, 27.5 tp per sange, if all 5 hit connect

We already determined the real delay of a 210 and 201 katana to be 2.88 attacks every 2.02 seconds.
I have no idea what katanas youre claiming to be using outside of Kikoku, which I assume is 95 forever, so we'll use 95 kikoku and a generic 51 damage/201 delay lvl 99 magian katana.
so 60 and 51 base damage, the average middle ground is 55.5.
Looking at the TP set I posted, we see +21 STR. This gives us 5 fSTR. Attack value is going to be slightly less for the tp set, but should cap pDIF for 1 handed melee at 2 regardless.
(55.5+5)*2=121 damage per katana hit
121*2.88=348.48 damage and 12.96 tp every 2.02 seconds using your katanas.

So we'll take the shuriken time and dive it by the katanas time
8.59/2.02=4.2524
So if we multiple every melee value by 4.2524 we can determine melee damage and tp gain during the time it takes to use sange.
348.48*4.2524=1482.05
12.96*4.2524=55.111

So lets see here, actually using sange is:
1023 damage 27.5 tp
Meleeing with your 95 Kikoku and 99 Magian offhand is:
1482 damage 55.1 tp

LOOKS LIKE MELEEING WINS AGAIN.
I didn't even account for the hidden extra damage procs on kikoku and it's STILL WINNING.
now go away.

wish12oz

05-07-2012, 04:13 AM

lol no one is saying shurikens are to be used as an alterntive to dual wield you are just to headstrong to actually consider that shuriknes are good for pulling since you get futher range than provoke they are faster than a bow and gun, and the use of sange allow a decent chunk of tp and dmg to be used every 5min that is how shurikens are used.

running for an extra 1-2 seconds to be in range of provoke, then running back 1-2 seconds to where you would be standing if you used sange is faster than stopping for 1 second so the server registers you stopped moving, and you dont get the 'moved and interrupted aim' message, then waiting 4.59 seconds to use a throwing attack.

Since I know you can't count, thats 2-4 seconds to provoke, and 5.69 seconds for throwing. Provoke is faster.

And since standing around using sange is time you could be spending back at camp and meleeing, it comes back to the meleeing does more damage in the time it takes to use sange than using sange does.

Are you going to tell me a time when shurikens are useful yet? Cause I'm still not seeing it.

Darwena

05-07-2012, 08:57 AM

That still a lot of gear to bring to only use a job ability every 5 min...

Nala

05-07-2012, 09:24 AM

Might as well give up wish, even with all that they will insist and persist, that's why they post about throwing and sange in 4+ other threads besides this one, for any one with half a brain they can follow what you have said, for every one else, you're bashing your head against a brick wall and making no headway.

vixin

05-07-2012, 11:57 AM

this issue isnt that we know what does better your just to stupid to get the fact that this is a game and we just playing it for fun.

Karbuncle

05-07-2012, 12:07 PM

this issue isnt that we know what does better your just to stupid to get the fact that this is a game and we just playing it for fun.

Hi. Should i have wish re-quote the part where multiple people have suggested throwing to be viable and situationally useful? Or the part where I said Have fun with throwing, the game is designed for fun, But don't spread misinformation on a forum trying to insist it has any uses outside of RP'ing your favorite Anime Ninjas?

We can do Either or, Or we can do both. Up to you. Personally, I find repeating myself absolutely dashing. Because if i have to repeat myself, it just points out that the one I'm repeating too either can't read, has the memory of a goldfish, or is just "to stupid' they forget whats been said in this thread so far.

I think in the very first thread this came up, Wish himself also acknowledged that people should have fun with what they do. I don't think wish has ever argued that you should never throw if it makes you happy and you enjoy doing it. His only argument, i 'think', To date has just been that Throwing sucks. The only thing he's doing is shinning the light of reason on this thread in case some new NIN Decides to read it and gets the idea throwing is good. Which its not.

So go enjoy having throwing, If all throwing is to you is something "Fun", and in turn know how terrible it is, why do you continue to try and defend it or insult Wish when you know he's 100% correct?

vixin

05-07-2012, 12:13 PM

again i wont agree with your comment "hes 100% correct"? what is that bs? and its not that wish is right or wrong its he bashes people gives them a 2-4 paragraph how hes elite and they are "noobs" then closes it off saying "your wrong, wrong wrong". If you want to get yrou message across just say it dont bash or troll simple as that. To save you the trouble dont post no one cares/ wantes to be treated like your our father "i keep repeating myself" maybe you should quit while yoru ahead if people are refusing to listen no?

Karbuncle

05-07-2012, 12:25 PM

again i wont agree with your comment "hes 100% correct"? what is that bs?

Then you deny the truth. Its not really hard to see. He's not arguing you can't go have fun with it. Math Doesn't have a formula for determining fun(Maybe). So he's only arguing it sucks. Which it does, and now, You're backpedaling that you only use it for fun. So neither of your ideals clash at this point.

You just seem to be arguing for attention then?

and its not that wish is right or wrong its he bashes people gives them a 2-4 paragraph how hes elite and they are "noobs" then closes it off saying "your wrong, wrong wrong".

First off, Welcome to the Internet

Second off, Knowing how to play your job or Middle-School Level Math is not being Elite. Its called Basic human intelligence. Get some?

THird off, It is about "Right and Wrong". There are two options when playing a job, The right way, or the wrong way. Throwing on NIN Is the wrong way. You can do it for shits and giggles until you're blue in the face, Wish is only here to stop other NINs from getting the impression Throwing might be useful. It simply is not. In its current state. It could be in the future, But right now there is no uses for it.

His arguments mean nothing more, or nothing less. Simply throwing sucks. He's not saying you can't have fun and do it, He's just saying it offers nothing beneficial to the job. If you do it for fun, you should already understand this, Because if you thought it was useful, you wouldn't be doing it for fun, you'd be doing it because its useful. Or both. But you acknowledge you only do it for fun, Which acknowledges you know its not useful. So again, You and Wish's ideal should not conflict at this point.

Whats there to argue?

If you want to get yrou message across just say it dont bash or troll simple as that.

You called him Stupid.

To save you the trouble dont post no one cares/ wantes to be treated like your our father "i keep repeating myself" maybe you should quit while yoru ahead if people are refusing to listen no?

I don't quit when it comes to defending something i'm right about, No matter how thick-headed or idiotic my opponent may be, This applies to all my arguments, not you directly, So don't get the idea I'm specifically calling you thick-headed/idiotic. When I feel the conversation has run its course, I'll stop replying, thats about the worst I'll do.

Oh, and P.S, You obviously care a great deal considering by the tone of your posts, you're getting flustered and angry at our responses, meaning we're impacting you in a negative way, which means you care enough for you to let our responses get in your head. Try not to be too embarrass. Its only natural for people to get angry over time. Anger is after all a natural emotion every one of us experiences in our life.

But it only makes you look foolish if you deny this. Also, I'll be a dad whenever I want. don't make me get the belt on you for back-talking.

vixin

05-07-2012, 12:31 PM

you think way to much for this game tbh lol

Karbuncle

05-07-2012, 12:45 PM

you think way to much for this game tbh lol

Am i too understand that at this point in time, You're saying "Applying Things you learned in Middle School to a Video game is on too high an intellectual plain for me, As such, You are taking this game entirely too seriously by doing such"?

Its what I'm seeing. Then again, I'm not even sure if its proper english, Which i won't fault you on, as english may not be your first language and thats understandable. Though, at this point, You seem to be out of valid responses and will just continue to make 1-liners and desperately attempt for some sentence that will save-face on your part.

Don't do that, Belt time.

vixin

05-07-2012, 12:47 PM

usually wish give me more of a figth worth joking about but yours make me feel liek you want to assert your sexxual agression on me. sorry but yeah ill just end it on that note your no fun lol

Karbuncle

05-07-2012, 12:51 PM

usually wish give me more of a figth worth joking about but yours make me feel liek you want to assert your sexxual agression on me. sorry but yeah ill just end it on that note your no fun lol

So what you're saying is, You told us to get our point across without trolling, Which no one here has done, and in turn, You are now just admitting that you're only screwing with Wish to get responses out of him, which in itself is the definition of trolling?

As well as calling him stupid, you seem to have no idea what you want out of this argument, and are contradicting yourself with every post.

You really are attempting desperately to save face. I think the my paragraph about you getting angry has sent you into an "I ain't even mad" Meme spiral where now you're going to crack jokes and act like you weren't really serious this entire time.

Honestly, I'm a little amazed, I haven't seen this level of denial in months. I expected you maybe to say something like "Yah I'm angry what of it". but this? I find it Ironic you said a few posts back Wish lost his credibility when you... you just murdered yours in cold blood.

and sexual frustration, really? Is that the best you could come up with? I bet you got that from me saying I'll get the belt on you. When you think of your father spanking you you go straight to Sexuality? Hmmm... That's pretty bad.

Bulrogg

05-07-2012, 01:10 PM

Even when we concede to the argument, which I know I have, and only state that some ninjas choose to use it, it has to be known when we use it so we can be called wrong.

Even when we just post to make a suggestion for an adjustment, a new ability idea, or to simply ask Rep/Dev questions we're told to to stop cause we're wrong.

So here goes: We're wrong for playing a game for enjoyment. And we're wrong for asking for adjustments and improvements to aspects of the game that not everyone agrees with.

Now, what else will it take to get them to shut up about it and let us try to get a good conversation going on in hopes reps/devs can chime in and perhaps enlighten us as to what their plans/thoughts are? Or will it just revert to the "Don't waste your time". No matter where we try and hold a conversation it always gets trashed up with Naruto RP insults and bickering.

There have been some pretty neat ideas over the ninja forum, but for the most part I see them getting trashed by the same individuals. Why? Because they don't want the job to change except for maybe one direction? Well if I may take a page out if their book: If you want more damage try leveling a real DD job. NIN should remain a jack of all trades type job and be able to take on many roles in the game, except of course healer. I still can't believe someone asked for a healing -jutsu, silly Leaf village and their medical ninjas. (That's how you do a Naruto dig; bazinga):rolleyes:

--and on that note: Good night forum.square-enix.com; stay classy.

Darwena

05-07-2012, 03:40 PM

This thread really start to go nowhere...
We can resume this:

-Sange is the less efficient of Ninja merits.
-Shurikens cost a lot to make and stack of 12 are not efficient.
-Math proved than best shuriken with best setup cannot be more efficient then melee with basic cheap gear.
-Some people want some attention.
-People who play game for fun will play WHM/WAR to be DD aren't useless but just less effiecient.

Kincard

05-25-2012, 05:08 AM

I think you guys are looking at Sange all wrong. I don't get why people think Sange is meant as a mid-combat tool. Ever since Sange came out I've only ever thought of it as a combat opener to get a damage spike to start with. The min 5-minute timer has always made me think of it as such. Back at 75 cap I had did a few solos by opening with Sange and I thought it worked decently well.

Don't get me wrong, I think Sange is still garbage in it's current form, but under ideal conditions I'm getting that if Sange tosses 6 shurikens at once with full Ni shadows up, that would be a 1260-damage throw with capped pDIF. This is assuming Manji shurikens, IE actually achievable in-game right now...though I'd like to see a NIN cap pDIF on throwing on anything worth a damn, even with all the decent RA gear we have access to. (Though if current info are to be believed, Koga +2's augment adds a whopping +100 ratk during Sange assuming full merits)

I think if they remove the San procs in VW like they said they will (Otherwise I'll stick with NTE, thanks...), and adding cheaper shurikens that stack way higher, I don't think they would need to add something as absurd as a 500-damage shuriken like Kaerin is suggesting. Even then though, I've never thought of it as a "oh shit I just lost hate, time to Sange" ability, but rather a "They're about to pop the NM, use sange as part of my prep and open with a big throw."

That being said, if they want to make it the former I would not complain at all...having the throwing sweet spot be melee range would suggest otherwise to me. Also if you use it the way I've always thought of using it you can basically ignore the free period of throws since after you Sange you just play melee NIN like normal, no?

wish12oz

05-25-2012, 06:57 PM

Kincard

05-25-2012, 09:02 PM

What? Look, I didn't say it would be better, because if you read my post you would see that I think Sange is still crap in its current form. I even agree with you that it's not worth using in its current form, I was simply saying I don't understand why people use it the way they do.

But hell, I have some time, I'll play numbers a bit. Unless my info is outdated, you made a small mistake with the fSTR on the shuriken. fSTR is calculated totally differently for ranged attacks.

Using 63/192 Manji Shuriken assuming perfect conditions (Pretty much impossible, but we're theorycrafting arn't we?):
Base Damage: D + fSTR2 = 63 + (63/9 + 8)*2 = 93
pDIF: 3
93 * 3 = 279
Assuming you throw and land the entire Sange:
279 * 6 = 1674

Now do it with the 146 DMG "relic shuriken" (I agree that a "relic shuriken" should be better than that, but I think your estimate of it needing to be 400 DMG is absurd).

(146 + (146/9 + 8)*2)*3*6 = 3492 damage.

It is, of course, unreasonable to assume the numbers will consistently hit that, which is why I said I agree with you that Sange is currently shit.

Let's assume dSTR is 0, pDIF is 2, and you hit with 3 shuriken.
146*2*3 = 876
If they end up making those 102 DMG shurikens for 99s, the same fSTR2, pDIF and number of shuriken hitting would get you 612 damage.

With the delay, here's where I run into a bit of confusion- like I said above, the sweet spot for throwing is melee range anyway, why would you bother counting the final 1.1s? Count it if you want, I suppose, but there's no reason you wouldn't just swap back into your melee gear right afterwards and just fall into playing melee NIN the rest of the fight. If you remove that (feel free to argue your side on this one), you get ~1.73 katana rounds for every throw you do, which comes out to 523 damage based on the gimp katanas you listed earlier.

Look, I know this doesn't prove Sange is worth anything at the moment, all I'm saying is that your estimate of a shuriken needing to have 400 DMG for it to be useful, even under the current system, is absurd. If they end up adjusting ranged delay so that it isn't pants-on-head retarded I'm not sure it's not worth it to use Sange as a combat opener at all.

wish12oz

05-26-2012, 11:22 AM

With the delay, here's where I run into a bit of confusion- like I said above, the sweet spot for throwing is melee range anyway, why would you bother counting the final 1.1s?

The wiki said you cant make melee attacks til after that period of time has ended.

fSTR, maybe, I didn't bother to look at the ranged fSTR to see if it was different.

For the meleeing side you need to count TP and divide it into WS damage as well, and also take into consideration time. If a mob is coming towards you, and you use sange > throw > engage its going to be a much longer span of time than provoke > engage until you start meleeing. The extra time where the puller is getting hit or is running past you is whats going to kill sange use in this way and make it not useful. Not that I can think of any time when pulling is even useful lol. All I can think of is things like Tunga or Zipacna, where the puller is going to be running past you to try and dump aggro on everything else, which would absolutely kill sange use. Puller is running back with mob > you use sange, it gets in range you start throwing > it runs past you > you hit or miss(on misses you voke) then it runs runs back to you > you engage and start attacking. Compared to puller is coming back with mobs > you voke when its in range and then engage > weapons are out and hitting as soon as it gets to you. Sange needs to do more damage than just meleeing in that time span where you could be meleeing for it to be worth using, and even without the 2 seconds JA delay, it won't be able to make up the difference. If it ends up doing about the same or less damage then carrying around shurikens ends up being a waste of inventory, inventory -8 or more for a throwing set and some shurikens is just not going to be an intelligent thing to have if it doesn't put out better numbers.

Bulrogg

05-27-2012, 03:34 AM

wish12oz

05-27-2012, 06:03 AM

I'm still pulling for Sange to be changed to an instant ability like Quick Draw as a way to combat the delay that comes from using the ability and then having to make a /ra. Maybe SE can chime in on what they think when they get to the ranged delay attack adjustment part of the road map.

That would of worked well to at least make it useful if higher damage shurikens were obtainable at some point, but merits have already been changed, so I wouldn't hold my breathe waiting for this to happen.

Randnum

05-27-2012, 10:05 PM

Can you provide the math for sange being better in this case vs just engaging, provoking and attacking?
Because I'm pretty sure I already did it, and even if I didn't I can tell you the outcome, even with the "relic shuriken" it wont be worth using.

I'll just point out once again that your math insists on perfect melee gear which not everyone has yet, and throwing gear is way, almost ridiculously easier to get than the level of melee gear required.

Also in your tests you have made three notable 'adjustable' errors, which bring it closer.

You're still right in terms of what you meant to prove, you just proved it under conditions you consider to be 'standard' when they are in fact 'optimal' on one side, and despite your noted and appreciated attempts to make them optimal on the other side too, not quite so.

This post is more for other people so they know you didn't actually prove 'melee always wins' you proved 'absolute best melee always wins'. Some people don't have that yet, and some people don't have time for it or aren't aiming for it.

You can fault people for THAT of course, I'll stay out of that.

Kincard

05-27-2012, 11:09 PM

Actually, if we're talking about the current situation specifically, even a really hastily thrown-together AH/solofarmed gear NIN should be able to exceed the type of numbers Sange is currently realistically able to put out on a regular basis using Manji Shuriken. Even if they didn't it still really isn't worth it to waste space on a RA set:

I'll just throw together a set quickly even a really casual player could have- note that most players would probably wish they could choke you through their modem if they saw you wearing this stuff fighting anything serious. I don't think the items I put in this set are unreasonable at all:

http://www.ffxiah.com/members/item-sets?id=261001
45 base damage
387 base delay
22% haste
Dual Wield +10

45*2=90
18% DA
So 2.18 attacks per round.
2.18*90=196.2

I'll be lazy and just use 22+15% for haste assuming you have white magic on you.
45% Total DW.
387*0.63*0.55=134.0955
123.0955/59=2.27s per round

If we take the same assumptions Kaerin made for throwing one shuriken earlier, you deal 396.72 damage in the time to throw the shuriken. Let's also say you get 20%TP, and let's say you do 800 damage on a WS (Jin or Shun I guess). That's 160 damage for a total of 556.72 damage, which is almost as much as the damage done by a relic shuriken. Considering how commonplace the gear I've chosen is, this really isn't an acceptable state.

Though, really, how would they make a relic shuriken anyway? I guess it could be dispensed like some of the RNG arrows/bolts, but then they would need to make it dispense at least a stack a day or something. But if they actually made it like that then Kaerin's suggestion of like, 450 DMG IS reasonable because I can swing a Kikoku or Kannagi all day, and I can't say the same for some relic shuriken. Hell, I probably wouldn't bother (if we're talking about it being about as difficult to get as any other relic) even if it had 500 base damage.

So yeah, I'm putting my hopes in the ranged attack delay adjustment they plan on doing. I expect to be disappointed, honestly.

wish12oz

05-28-2012, 02:35 PM

Also in your tests you have made three notable 'adjustable' errors, which bring it closer.

Ranged fSTR is the only error I possibly made, and considering I counted meleeing as 0 fSTR, and gave throwing +19 as well as capped pDIF (3) compared to meleeings 2 and didn't even count aftermath on Kannagi, and counted 90 Kannagi and 99 magian elemental damage katanas as your weapons instead of 99 Kannagi..... I don't find that to be unrealistic at all. I counted using 2x 52.5 base damage weapon with 205.5 delay, and compared this to the DEVs "relic" throwing item which is double the base damage of what you're actually going to be using while throwing... after understanding this you can see your argument has no legs to stand on. The only thing that could even be considered sort of difficult to get that I used was Thaumas body, but then anyone who is any good at this game can do neo-nyzul and get it. If you can't, maybe you should heed what I say more than you do.

You're still right in terms of what you meant to prove, you just proved it under conditions you consider to be 'standard' when they are in fact 'optimal' on one side, and despite your noted and appreciated attempts to make them optimal on the other side too, not quite so.

I consider what I used to point out throwing is garbage as gimp, maybe its superamazingawesomesauce to you, but to me, its gimp.

If you want a real comparison to how horrible throwing really is, I can compare it to my WAR that has the absolute best gear possible, instead of to the meleeing damage potential of one of the worst jobs in the game, i.e. ninja.

This post is more for other people so they know you didn't actually prove 'melee always wins' you proved 'absolute best melee always wins'. Some people don't have that yet, and some people don't have time for it or aren't aiming for it.

I proved STANDARD melee set for any competent NIN does more than DOUBLE the damage the best throwing NIN can do with a "relic shuriken."

So really, why are you talking about how I'm wrong instead of doing the math yourself and SHOWING that I'm wrong? I gave you all the knowledge you need to do the math yourself, do it, post it, prove me wrong or don't say I'm wrong, because you don't know.

@Kindcard
You messed up your link, it should be:
http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/261001

Akujima

09-25-2012, 05:23 AM

Gahahaha.... Remember me?

Still at it, eh guys? Poor Vixen, now he/she is the punching bag for your super fast melee swings.

Saefinn

09-25-2012, 08:19 AM

The thing that bugs me about this thread is that people seem to be so against the idea of varying playstyles. When talking about MMOs the main thing I complement FFXI on is the fact that you have a subjob system and you have the ability to play around with different playstyles and exploit different kinds of strengths and weaknesses based on how you would prefer to play. To my mind, with FFXI's job system and how it works it should leave room for more than one way to play a job. I see all this talk of "a good NIN should do that" or "a good NIN should do this", but no, a good NIN will get results. Yes, at its current state you can come to mathematical equations to home in on the best set ups and the best ways to get those numbers up high. But that sucks the fun out of it. If you're going to have such a set-in-stone direction for jobs then why not just take the World of Warcraft route or a the SW:TOR route? Where you just choose you class and choose your role (heal/tank/dps spec) and limit yourself to set rotations, limit yourself to a specific set of gear and just play your job like you're operating a machine. If that was how I had to play FFXI, then I would cease to complement its job system. For me, it would be mundane.

What I've always enjoyed doing with my jobs is seeing what results certain subjobs give, how I can balance certain strengths and weaknesses, how to compensate and experiment to find a way I enjoy the class the most rather than attempt a more mechanical approach, if you prefer it that way, by all means, do it that way, you have room to do so. I prefer to take the approach I most enjoy and it's how people actually end up finding me performing best, because if I'm not enjoying it, then why should I play it? I've avoided researching playstyles for any I play (but will research fights I've not done). I know for certain situations certain things will be expected and I'll fulfill them, for example, playing COR and offering specific buffs, but you do what works for the team as well as yourself, as they say, there's no 'I' in team.

But I hate feeling restricted and I know certain folk would look down upon me for that because it means I might not necessarily restrict myself to what they consider the best - don't get me wrong, there are certain methods I'll agree with. What I'll settle down with is what I like the most and the jobs I've played so far? I've been successful. I won't try to speak expertly on NIN, because before my hiatus I was only levelling it and now, it's 95.

But how is this relevent? I've read the arguments for and against, the arguments 'for' seem to be people reserving it for certain situations and agreeing that it still needs a boost. Whilst the 'against' is based on mathematics. But what I think really should speak for itself is how successful an individual is playing as a Ninja - are these people who find sange preferable playing their job well? And I don't mean based on mathematical equations or heck, even gear choice, but the actual results of their tanking or their DDing. Because whenever I play an MMO, be it this one or another, the most valuable players are the ones who will put the effort in, are into their job roles and get the results...but also enjoyable to play alongside with (no miserable sods or elitists please).

So what I consider playing a job 'well' isn't based on mathematics but the results. Yes, it could go hand in hand - the 'best' tanks are possibly those who take advantage of the formulas to get results, but I would in no way class anybody who does things differently but still gets good results a 'bad' tank. I am saying this as somebody who has to heal tanks and seem to be a main healer in any MMO I play. So naturally, I am not a fan of bad tanks because I have to try and compensate for them.