Crit Hit Kick Based WS

[Nvr]

Crit hit WS's are an important aspect of dealing alot of dmg in Abyssea, but while Footwork had recieved alot of work in the past to make it much more popular, a lack of a kick based crit hit WS has really hurt Footworks usefulness.

Please add a Crit Hit Kick Based weapon skill for MNK (multi-hit would be a plus).

[Swords]

Id say rework the modifiers a bit on MNK WS's. I could configure my setup to have 999 atk and have over 300STR but sill have a difficult time breaking 3k with with non-emp WS's.

[Evilvivi]

H2H WSs have good modifiers, except Asuran, which should only be used outside of abyssea. You can break 3k dmg on Ascetic's Fury pretty easily with the right atma, although with my current gear I average around 2.5k but get as high as 4k.

As for a Crit Hit Kick Based WS, why would you even want this. To optimize it you would have to use Footwork, which is so much slower than meleeing regularly.

[Nvr]

As for a Crit Hit Kick Based WS, why would you even want this. To optimize it you would have to use Footwork, which is so much slower than meleeing regularly.

There is something called a Footwork Build.
Using Ursine +1 or +2 you can kick twice almost ever time. In abyssea, these kicks can crit for 350-500ish points of dmg. 2 kicks gives you 25 TP, and WSing when you have footwork active gives a large amount of TP return (46tp return for Asuran). On top of that, Footwork gives you an attack boost of 15% with AF3+2 feet which also increases the weapon dmg while using WS by +45 which is added to the +18 that footwork naturally gives making a 53 dmg weapon. Just because footwork attacks slower does not mean it has no use.

[Evilvivi]

Ursine +1s and +2s are still bad, since during FootWork you max out at 2 kicks per round. So whereas meleeing normally you can do up to 6 swings per round + an additional kick attack. Also, during Footwork you suffer a penalty to attack delay.
So its almost like an old debate about Haste vs. Att. and we know, haste wins out. Also, without a conserve tp I dont see Asuran Fists netting 46tp. Because, you gain 6.4 tp per hit, so that is

6.4x2: 12.8 (I think it would get rounded down to 12)+6 given you hit all the hits, which is 18tp, and if it gets rounded up its 19, so unless you stack on a crapload of stp gear.

[Musahashi]

Evilvivi, the attacks per round caps out @ 8, you can kick and DA the kick for 2 kicks in 1 round.

But everything else is correct, and I agree we don't need a crit hit kick WS, we need a much better AoE WS. TK can get well over 3k if geared correctly, but to get that, you have to become a spike DD, and mnk is not about that. Monk is about DoT, constant unforgiving pain, not massive pain every 2 minutes.

As for people referring to abyssea situations.... please, test outside of abyssea, post results here.

[Greatguardian]

While punching?

No. You cannot DA a kick. You can never hit 2 kicks in a round without Footwork or an AF3+2 Set Bonus proc. Ever.

MNK can also use Cataclysm, which is easily one of the strongest AoE WS inside Abyssea (it takes fulltime Mighty Strikes for Fell Cleave to top it).

[Martinius]

MNK can also use Cataclysm, which is easily one of the strongest AoE WS inside Abyssea (it takes fulltime Mighty Strikes for Fell Cleave to top it).

yes, sort of. cataclysm (along w/ jinpu and wildfire) is basically the strongest brew ws against mobs not strong to darkness. when using in catacleaving, you have to use the same brew atmas (cosmos/smiting/griffonclaw or ultimate, gc being better). so while catacleaving, your wses will likely be stronger than a non-MS fell cleave, but the war gets to use all his DD atmas. (plus war gets tp from retaliation, whereas our counters don't give us tp, so they are WSing much more than us... maybe i should make a thread demanding that :3)

[Greatguardian]

Yeah, Tp is the only fail part about catacleaving. If I can find a camp with mandies or frogs it typically becomes a non-issue though, as I tend to have 100 TP back from received hits by the time my WS delay is up. I just wanted to point out that Mnk does, in fact, have a good AoE WS already.

[Nvr]

Ursine +1s and +2s are still bad, since during FootWork you max out at 2 kicks per round.

Yeah you cap out at 2 hits, but the frequency of hitting twice is much mich higher. I can crit 2 kick attack with these for 800-900 or so dmg, which is about the same ( if not more) dmg I would get if I added the dmg from the average of 4 or so hits from hitting without Footwork.

It is more about how you prefer to play. Sometimes I would rather hit slower but harder.

The thing that needs to be concidered is gameplay outside of Abyssea, but no one seems to think about that at all anymore. People act as though 90% crit hat rate is normal and all things should be adjusted to that fact. Outside of Abyssea, Ursine +2 do not crit hit 90% of the time for 200 dmg. Outside of Abyssea my Footwork build with TK are a godsend.


we need a much better AoE WS.

I do agree with this.


Also, without a conserve tp I dont see Asuran Fists netting 46tp. Because, you gain 6.4 tp per hit, so that is

6.4x2: 12.8 (I think it would get rounded down to 12)+6 given you hit all the hits, which is 18tp, and if it gets rounded up its 19, so unless you stack on a crapload of stp gear.

I am not sure for the reason behind it, but tp return while footwork is up is different that without it. I get about.. 29? or so tp returned from Asc. Fury which, correct me if I am wrong, is a single hit WS, and I have no store TP gear other than Raja's. I can promise you that I get much more TP returned from Asuran than 18tp.

Here is another post explaining Asuran TP return from Footwork. (3rd post down)

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/59057-Footwork

[Greatguardian]

As far as I know it's not possible for any sort of Footwork build to out-damage Verethragna. Impetus also highly favors standard H2H over kicks.

[Nvr]

Oh, I forgot every single MNK has Verethragna, so when anything is discussed about it's usefulness, it should be compared to it. I agree with your point on Impetus, but no one implied that Empy. H2H is worse than Footwork, so I don't really see why the existence of Verethragna is an argument against Footwork.

[Greatguardian]

Sorry, I'll rephrase:

As far as I know it's not possible for any sort of Footwork build to out-damage Revenant Fists +2.

[Nvr]

I'll rephrase:

No one is saying that Footwork is better than anything.

[Martinius]

basically, the power of footwork was getting an absurd double attack rate while using the OA2-3 claws, and parlaying that into an x-hit build, allowing you to ws very frequently. when the level cap went up further, mnk got another level of martial arts, and thus the x-hit builds didn't work anymore. add impetus and all the fun toys we've gotten and footwork is just not worth it anymore.

[Greatguardian]

@Nvr: I must have misread then? If Mnk is always going to do more damage with h2h, why does Footwork need a new WS?

[Nvr]

If Mnk is always going to do more damage with h2h

Really now. Just because something in the game like a specific weapon exists does not mean that anything other than that is useless. If your an elitist that absolutly only does anything that seems to be the best idc, but just because there are situations where H2H is better than Footwork, and my whole point of the thread was not even to discuss this, does not mean no one should ever use Footwork or so anything other than what is the "best".

The whole point of the topic was to request a multi-hit-crit-foot-based WS to bring up the use of footwork. There is already every why of H2H WS, aside from elemental I think. If SE is going to add new WS's I would like to see a multi-hit-crit-foot-based WS. I really don't care if you dissagree because you don't use footwork. Footwork exists and some people like to use it in situations. The WS I would like to see would give MNK a type of WS they do not have yet, and it would allow it to be useful in more situations. I don't see the point is adding another H2H WS that does the same thing as the other H2H WS's except maybe make the others more useless.

If you understood what the topic presents then you should realize that

As far as I know it's not possible for any sort of Footwork build to out-damage Verethragna.
really had nothing to do with anything and was a fairly pointless and obviouse statement.

As a side note,
The board has not been up too long and you are nearing 300 posts, so you are obviously pretty opinionated and I am not going to bother responding any discussion with you related to "H2H > Footwork" argument you decided to introduce to the thread.

[Greatguardian]

My point was simply that, while it may be fun as a toy, I don't see the Mnk job as a whole benefiting from a new Kick WS. I never said it wouldn't be interesting. It might be kinda neat. But, at the moment, Footwork is so far behind in terms of utility and overall damage that adding a new WS to it may only be counterproductive. We may only get 1-2 more WS on the way to 99 as well, so that's something to consider. I doubt anything they add could beat Victory Smite, but I can hold my judgment on that till the update.

[pheare]

Greatguardian is correct in everything he said.

there was a very short period of time where Footwork had increased popularity because of the updates to it, but if any monk is still using it they are gimp.

If you consider yourself a monk main and you don't have Revenant Fists +2 or Empy, then you should drop everything you are doing and get it. It's not like it's hard at all to get.

Monk is already so powerful, why should SE make another WS to cater to people who are playing Monk the wrong way?

[Nvr]

Greatguardian is correct in everything he said.

there was a very short period of time where Footwork had increased popularity because of the updates to it, but if any monk is still using it they are gimp.

If you consider yourself a monk main and you don't have Revenant Fists +2 or Empy, then you should drop everything you are doing and get it. It's not like it's hard at all to get.

Monk is already so powerful, why should SE make another WS to cater to people who are playing Monk the wrong way?

So I guess SE should never do anything that might improve Footwork because atm there are things that are better. I mean, why improve anything if there is something better. We should all be playing exactly the same way anyways, and if people don't play like us they are "gimp". We don't want anything to ever change either, we always want what is best right now to always be best, because we like to know that what we are doing makes us better than the others that don't play like we do.

[Khajit]

Nvr. You're on a job that has gotten buffed nonstop simply by leveling BEFORE adding in all the other buffs/advantages it's gained recently. The new JA it's gotten are good enough that about every other job in the game would murder for those in exchange for the nonsense it's been saddled with instead. Mnk is literally at the top of the DD pile and uncontested as best tank/job whenever blue is wanted or red isnt needed. All of this means mnk has gotten all the updates it's been begging for for years and then some and you're running your mouth getting all pouty about a setup for footwork like a whiny little brat who cant accept that everything that's happened to it has been "awesome."
There's nothing wrong with hoping for new stuff but you're just being whiny at this point. SE can work on lolfootwork when they get tired of fixing some of the weak updates they gave other jobs. Also get that persecution complex out. They probably don't call you gimp because you play differently than them. They probably call you gimp because you can fix things without much effort (and easier than ever thanks to abyssea+ you're already on an "essential" job) and try to mock them when you're called out with nonsense logic like claiming that people don't want gear to ever change or improve for the sole purpose of insulting you or others while said people are advocating you take advantage of actual changes that have and are still happening right now.

[hiko]

So its almost like an old debate about Haste vs. Att. and we know, haste wins out. Also, without a conserve tp I dont see Asuran Fists netting 46tp. Because, you gain 6.4 tp per hit, so that is

6.4x2: 12.8 (I think it would get rounded down to 12)+6 given you hit all the hits, which is 18tp, and if it gets rounded up its 19, so unless you stack on a crapload of stp gear.
under footwork ws return "normal" TP for every hit

[Cream_Soda]

under footwork ws return "normal" TP for every hit
This is inorrect

[Nvr]

There's nothing wrong with hoping for new stuff but you're just being whiny at this point.

Being whiney? No I am not. I just have a problem with people deciding that the way other people play is the wrong way. Esspecially since this is about a new WS, not to debate about how useful Footwork is.


SE can work on lolfootwork when they get tired of fixing some of the weak updates they gave other jobs.

Just because other jobs need something I am not allowed to request something for MNK? This is a MNK forum, if you do not want to hear about MNK, or read about requests for MNK, then go on one of those other jobs forums and reply to their post. It is not like this is posted on a general forum.

I would like to see a crit-foot-based WS, if you wouldn't, then fine, I really don't care. But don't reply in my thread telling me that it is dumb to want it and if I am using footwork I am "gimp" and bash how I occasionally like to play. Could a foot based WS be good without Footwork, sure it could depending on the details. Would Footwork make it better, yeah it would. Could SE easily fix Footwork to make it much more usable, yeah they could.

Your whole objection to my request for these updates on MNK is based off of how other jobs need to be fixed more? Why are you even reading request threads let alone responding to them.


Monk is already so powerful, why should SE make another WS to cater to people who are playing Monk the wrong way?

It's comments like this that just sicken me.

[Cream_Soda]

But don't reply in my thread telling me that it is dumb to want it and if I am using footwork I am "gimp" and bash how I occasionally like to play.
Well, if by gimp he means the maximum damage output vs the maximum damage output of punching, he's 100% correct.

You can play how you want, but that won't change that it's a style of play that produces less damage at 0 benefit whatsoever.

[pheare]

Crit hit WS's are an important aspect of dealing alot of dmg in Abyssea, ... a lack of a kick based crit hit WS has really hurt Footworks usefulness.

There is something called a Footwork Build. Using Ursine +1 or +2 you can kick twice almost ever time.
Your initial postings, which then you were given reasons why footwork isn't good inside abyssea. It was also implied it would still be bad even with a new kick WS.


The thing that needs to be concidered is gameplay outside of Abyssea

Outside of Abyssea my Footwork build with TK are a godsend.
Didn't you start this topic saying you want a WS for your footwork inside abyssea? And now your saying 'think outside of abyssea' and TK is a godsend? I think you've switched gears pretty fast. I'm fairly certain a h2h build would still outparse a footwork build even outside abyssea. Sure higher damage numbers are nice to look at but you're losing out on a lot of overall damage with how slow you kick under footwork. AF3+2 feet are a nice little damage increase when kick attack activates when meleeing, but if your haste isn't capped you shouldn't even be wearing them in the first place.


if I am using footwork I am "gimp" and bash how I occasionally like to play.
So you occasionally play this way now? Sounded to me like you fulltime footwork inside and outside abyssea. You weren't being bashed, you were bragging about how powerful it is and we were trying to tell you it's not powerful in comparison to h2h.


this is about a new WS, not to debate about how useful Footwork is.
It is a debate about how useful Footwork is. You want this WS because you fulltime Footwork and want SE to add something to let you do more damage because of it. What we've been trying to tell you is IF YOU WANT TO DO MORE DAMAGE DON'T USE FOOTWORK.

Footwork is extremely situational and it will NOT beat a h2h in straight damage dealing. It just sounds to me you have a huge ego about your precious footwork build and since you've been proven wrong you're hurt. You're lashing out changing your story just so you don't look incompetent. You have to grow up and realize that when you make a suggestion people will state their own opinion. You also have to realize there are proven results showing that footwork is not the best way to do damage.

It makes people mad when you try to deny facts about a game that can be proven with numbers. You are exactly the same as someone who argues that doing only 300%TP Weapon Skills is going to do more damage than doing 100%TP Weapon Skills.

I called you gimp because you obviously want to do more damage yet you're not willing to change your playstyle to achieve it. You are defending a playstyle which is proven inferior at doing damage. In my eyes that does make a person gimp.

That being said, since a new kick WS still will not let a Footwork build become more powerful then a H2H build, I believe a more practical WS should take it's place.

[Nvr]

Your argument is borring, You say I deny facts and numbers when none have been presented. If fact, I have been the only one to provide numbers that show I do just as much dmg with a good footwork build, not more, just as much. As for me only using footwork, I never said that, but what I did say is I would like a good WS that would increase my incentive to use it.

Footwork is there, SE made it for MNK, and for a while SE seemed to be trying pretty hard to increase it's popularity. You're picking apart what I say and present an unrelated argument.

Seriously, I would like Crit-hit-foot-based WS. If you wouldn't, idc if you say so, but don't leave walls of text talking about something unrelated. Make your own thread if the issue is so important to you. In fact, I will make one for you since people looking for a discussion on footwork have no reason to look in here based on the topic.

[Cream_Soda]

Footwork is a little behind of non victory smite, non relic h2h outside of abyssea. It gets crushed by miles inside of abyssea. If you're talking abyssea, it doesn't come close in damage. You don't do just as much.

[Cream_Soda]

Aside from the lack of a decent WS, one of the things that really hurts footwork in abyssea is the inability to kick more than twice in one attack round.

For example, if you're using Epona's ring and atma of the apocalypse, that's 18% triple attack rate. Each proc is going to give you two extra attacks on punching, but would only give you one extra attack for kicking.

[Nvr]

Aside from the lack of a decent WS, one of the things that really hurts footwork in abyssea is the inability to kick more than twice in one attack round.

For example, if you're using Epona's ring and atma of the apocalypse, that's 18% triple attack rate. Each proc is going to give you two extra attacks on punching, but would only give you one extra attack for kicking.

I completely agree with you. I wish they would alter this.

[pheare]

Your argument is borring, You say I deny facts and numbers when none have been presented. If fact, I have been the only one to provide numbers that show I do just as much dmg with a good footwork build, not more, just as much. As for me only using footwork, I never said that, but what I did say is I would like a good WS that would increase my incentive to use it.
yes, you threw out 2 ball parked figures with no proof. The link you posted which was from 2008 was for the 43% which you're not getting any more because your TP return has been decreased from a new teir of Martial Arts. Anyway, who would use lolAsuran during footwork anyway?

Math:

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AkA0wGYYRRdadFpTbnVzSDNmajlXb25OM1lZR1JidGc&authkey=CKLFtcAO&hl=en#gid=3

Thankfully I found this so I didn't have to wait til servers are back up to prove you wrong. This is extensive research done with and without footwork. Looks like dps can be increased well over doubled without using footwork. You're Welcome.





Footwork is there, SE made it for MNK, and for a while SE seemed to be trying pretty hard to increase it's popularity. You're picking apart what I say and present an unrelated argument.

Footwork was great for a while, I've used it myself in the past, but it has outlived its usefulness. Move on and don't try to cling to the past so hard. They would have to do some pretty extensive work to make Footwork be on top again. It's just not reasonable to request a WS when it won't be worth anything to people who actually want to do DMG with Monk. I don't seem to be the only one saying that it's just not worth it.

So SE Don't add a crit hit kick WS so we don't have more noobs like this trying to defend an outdated playstyle(unless you want to rework footwork completely to actually make it useful).




Edit: Just saw your other thread, I shall move over there.

[Tekkenooo]

Example of what you can do on Monk level 90 if you do no got empyrial weapon or relik ...

http://s6.imagestime.com/out.php/i533150_Ascetic.jpg

[Cream_Soda]

Example of what you can do on Monk level 90 if you do no got empyrial weapon or relik ...

http://s6.imagestime.com/out.php/i533150_Ascetic.jpg
While it's still a nice number, that should read 4,413 (cheater!). 25% damage bonus on blunt to pots.

[Tekkenooo]

I know but is only 1 example ^^ For make great evidence i have post on pot mob ^^

[Corwin]

Footwork is bad and you should feel bad.

[Nvr]

Example of what you can do on Monk level 90 if you do no got empyrial weapon or relik ...

http://s6.imagestime.com/out.php/i533150_Ascetic.jpg

I would just like to point out that you are doing like 125 dmg average with crit hits. Footwork gives me 400+ dmg Crit hits.
You would also have access to H2H WS's while under footwork, but be given about 33TP return for Asc. Fury as well as have a +15% attack bonus.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I must be confused because I thought we just went over this.

[Nvr]

I must be confused because I thought we just went over this.

Yet the screenshot was posted in favor of H2H.

[Corwin]

Footwork is bad and you should feel bad.

Being reiterated since you clearly didn't get it the first time.

[Khajit]

Yet the screenshot was posted in favor of H2H.
Whoosh.
You don't seem to be getting that the sarcasm was directed at you.

[Tekkenooo]

The 125 dmg average critical are make whit a weapons trials that got 0 of DMG XD so i think is not bad ...

(Ursine Claws +2 (Dmg 0 Delay 86) (Delay +54) (Occ. Atk. 2-4 times) )= Kraken club on tp farm but make most DMG XD

[Nvr]

The 125 dmg average critical are make whit a weapons trials that got 0 of DMG XD so i think is not bad ...

(Ursine Claws +2 (Dmg 0 Delay 86) (Delay +54) (Occ. Atk. 2-4 times) )= Kraken club on tp farm but make most DMG XD

Oh, sorry. I did not realize you were using Ursine. I saw 4 hits and figured 2 attack rounds.

[Valefor4life]

I vote this new kick WS be called "No shadow kick".

[Mojo]

The damage per strike increase is being exaggerated anyways.


Weapon Base DMG +DMG fSTR Total DMG Marginal Increase
Furor Cesti 46 22 10 78 56.41%
Taurine Cesti 46 28 11 85 43.53%
Revenant Fists +2 46 31 11 88 38.64%
Verethragna(90) 46 35 12 93 31.12%
Glanzfaust(90) 46 42 13 101 20.79%
Spharai(90) 46 44 13 103 18.45%
Tantra Gaiters +2 64 45 13 122 -

In the most extreme case, Furor Cesti vs Tantra Gaiters +2, there's a marginal increase of 56%. Don't get me wrong, 56% is a huge number (a 100 damage strike with Furor Cesti would deal 156 under Footwork with AF3+2), just needs to be put in perspective with the overall trade off. This does dismiss the 15% attack bonus, although in many cases (both inside and outside of Abyssea) cRatio is already capped.

[Nvr]

I don't remember comparing Footwork with any of those weapons.

[Corwin]

Because comparing Footwork against Fruit Punches is easy. And completely useless. Much like Footwork.

[Vortex]

Because comparing Footwork against Fruit Punches is easy. And completely useless. Much like Footwork.

If you think footwork is useless, you obviously don't know mnk.

[Corwin]

In what situation would Footwork be superior to H2H?

[Vortex]

Try fighting a mob with bad spikes.

[Greatguardian]

Try fighting a mob with bad spikes.

Dispel them. Or turn until they're dispelled/wear. Or "FIGHT THROUGH", as my WHM buddy would say.

[Vortex]

Tell that to the tier 3 VNM in misrex, in fact, there are quite a few mobs which names escape me that has Undispelable spikes.

[Greatguardian]

Tell that to the tier 3 VNM in misrex, in fact, there are quite a few mobs which names escape me that has Undispelable spikes.

Tristitia is absolutely no threat to any MNK worth half a salt =/. Just punch it till it dies.

[Vortex]

Oh man lol....yea, cause being stunned 80% of the fight when you have a way of REDUCING the stun procs while WSing more freqently is defintly not worth it, i'm not saying he's incredibily difficult, it's just a smart way of fighting him as mnk, but if you like making it hard on your self, that's fine. can't sit here and say he isn't annoying.

As i said, he isn't the only one with annoying spikes that do 100+ damage, etc. i can't remember there names atm.

[Corwin]

Spike damage "mitigation" on one NM that poses no actual threat? That is the best you can come up with? Shaving a few minutes off killing one mob in the game does not a good JA make.

[Greatguardian]

Spike damage "mitigation" on one NM that poses no actual threat? That is the best you can come up with? Shaving a few minutes off killing one mob in the game does not a good JA make.

This ^. Except, hell, using lolFootwork will reduce the damage you do anyways. You'd take longer to kill it than if you just punched it. Because it'd take longer, you'd take more damage, use up more WHM MP (lol), and you'd get less done in any given timeframe. So no, using Footwork is not the "smarter" way to fight it. It's just bad. If you're getting owned because you're stunned, get a bloody PDT set and swap it in while stunned. If you're actually taking damage from nukes, get a bloody MDT set and swap it in when it starts casting high tier spells.

I can't think of a single NM in the game at this moment where you would actually benefit from using Footwork.

[Yarly]

They could either give monk a crit kick ws or something useful. I'd probably pick something useful.