Dancer tank gear? Help Me Out!

[Tsukino_Kaji]

So what are people's tank and I guess solo set ups(Merits included.)?
(Just finaly hit 90 before the shutdown.)

[Alkalinehoe]

My [Full] Evasion set up. You will be wanting to make a few in between set ups since NM's accuracy will vary and once you hit the cap, no more amount of evasion will help you.
Dagger:EVA Dagger
Neck: Torero Torque
Head: Empress Hairpin (Or O-hat is fine, but since I'm capped on ACC most of the time the +AGI tacks on a few extra points of Evasion).
Hands: Denali
Body: aurore
Ring: Heed
Back: Boxer's Mantle
Legs: Charis Tights +2
Feet: Ballerines

I would recommend putting Ballerines, EVA Kila and Charis Tights +2 on your priority list since those are easy to obtain and great options to TP in (especially the tights).

Torero can be replaced by Evasion Torque if you don't have a LS to kill Pankorator for you (or if you don't want to buy one from a merc), Boxer's can be replaced by Blur Mantle, Denali Hands by Derobade mittens(but you still may want to get Denali for a -DT set later), Empress by Fugacity Beret and of course you always have the option to use EVA+ Earrings, but I've never found them necessary yet (same for getting an EVA belt).

And again, don't use your full eva set for everything, mix and match and try to get the most haste out of it while just capping your evasion.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Need to start the daggers.
Never heard of the neck, have the torque.
Have the head.
The body.
The ring.
The back.
Killed all 3 of the leg seal NMs before the shutdown, but none dropped.
Have the feet.
Add: Have Scouter's Rope back from when they were 30k.

[Jesterking]

Slither Gloves are another nice alternative for hands, since they have Subtle Blow on them. And tanking, if the mob is using less TP moves then you won't die as fast.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Slither Gloves are another nice alternative for hands, since they have Subtle Blow on them. And tanking, if the mob is using less TP moves then you won't die as fast.Appearently on Siren there were 11 Slither on AH, but they were still 1m...

[Yoku]

Dagger:EVA Dagger
Head: (Or O-hat is fine, but since I'm capped on ACC most of the time the +AGI tacks on a few extra points of Evasion).
Body: aurore

FAIL!

heres my Eva set

Dagger (main hand): Fusetto+2, (offhand) Parazonium+2
Ammo: Charis feather
Head: Emperor hairpin (empress hairpin)
Neck: Evasion Torque
Earring: Brutal earring, Suppanomimi
Ring: Raja, Airy Ring
Hands: AF2 (+1)
Body: Furia vest
Back: Boxers mantle
Waist: Scouter's Rope
Legs: Charis tights +1
Feet: Emissary Boots (some ppl say Ballerinas are the same)

You dont need Eva dagger and Aurore Body is allways fail!

[Byrth]

Haha.... Aurore body has more Evasion than your Furia Vest and probably does better damage.

People have very different philosophies about how tanks should gear, often dependent upon how good the support they're used to is. I personally feel my duty is to keep myself out of one-shotting range while I do as much damage as I can safely do.

[Jesterking]

Really though, if you want to tank on DNC, just go full DD/Haste with Haste Samba and Saber Dance up and have the WHM spam heal you like how every other DD job tanks. Keep hate with Waltzes, get rid of all -ENM gear and get +ENM for them instead. Spam heal yourself for hate and anyone else in your party. Divine Waltz II pulls a lot of hate as it is so stocking up on potency and +enm is going to staple hate on you. If you're talking about soloing, then get EVA gear if not, then don't. Best thing for tanking is a full DD/Haste Set, Enmity for Waltzes and an -MDT set and you can pretty much tank any abyssea related NM.

On note of the Slither gloves, I bet there's huge undercutting going on. My server had them at 1mil for so long and then they dropped to 450k a day later. I'd be willing to bet if you tossed a lower amount of money at them you'd get them.

[Byrth]

In Abyssea, that's exactly what I do, except that I don't use Waltzes for Enmity. Saber Dance blocks them, and they're shitty enmity/TP anyway.

The Enmity caps are low enough anyway that if you do a bit over 6000 damage you have capped hate. In Abyssea that's approximately one self-skillchain, and outside Abyssea it's two.

[Kaeoni]

Really though, if you want to tank on DNC, just go full DD/Haste with Haste Samba and Saber Dance up and have the WHM spam heal you like how every other DD job tanks.

^This. Though dnc af body has -enmity still use it for waltz's if you are wondering. Dmg is your best source of hate, just do the best you can. Also, Curing waltz III is your most efficient recast to HP healed ratio cure, Especially if your Anwig salade is augmented with -2 waltz timer. Abuse it.

I Strongly recommend an Evasion build like previous posters have pointed out. Something to look into is Subtle blow gear as well, keep that in mind, i incorporate it into my evasion sets on thief and dancer whenever at all possible.

Fan Dance and Saber dance are he only 2 G2 worth meriting, No foot rise and closed position are extremely limited and can be made up with gear respectively. This is my opinion.

[Byrth]

Tanking TP build in Abyssea for me without a Bard would be:
Twashtar/Eva Kila+2/____/Charis
AF3+2/AF3/Suppa/Brutal
AF3+2/Dusk+1/Epona's/Rajas
Blur/Twilight/AF3+2/Ballerines

If I have a co-tank, obviously I switch between that set and a full-on DD TP set. I keep a full evasion set for recovering from big TP moves. My evasion set mixes in SB:
Twashtar/Kila+2/____/Charis
Fugacity/Torero/Musical/Novia
SH+1/Slither/Heed/Rajas
Blur/Scouter's/AF3+2/Ballerines

[Alkalinehoe]

FAIL!

heres my Eva set

Dagger (main hand): Fusetto+2, (offhand) Parazonium+2
Ammo: Charis feather
Head: Emperor hairpin (empress hairpin)
Neck: Evasion Torque
Earring: Brutal earring, Suppanomimi
Ring: Raja, Airy Ring
Hands: AF2 (+1)
Body: Furia vest
Back: Boxers mantle
Waist: Scouter's Rope
Legs: Charis tights +1
Feet: Emissary Boots (some ppl say Ballerinas are the same)

You dont need Eva dagger and Aurore Body is allways fail!

Um... ok?

Aurore has better evasion then your body and more DD stats.... Airy ring for Eva? lulz, Torero>Eva Torque, lolfusetto, Charis tights+1???. Emissary boots??, I dunno why you called my eva set fail when yours is worse.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Fan Dance and Saber dance are he only 2 G2 worth meriting, No foot rise and closed position are extremely limited and can be made up with gear respectively. This is my opinion.No it's 5/5 closed possision, 2/3 No foot rise(You don't need more then that.) and 3/5 fan dance. You don't make up for closed possition with gear, you add gear on top of it. Plus, adds emnity. And spoogy? Realy? I've never waste any gear slot for 1% dual weild. Might as well drop your scouter's for a sarashi while you're at it.

[Byrth]

Sarashi is our only access to 1% Dual Wield. Neck is 3% (and 5 SB), Suppa is 5%, and Body is 10% (and 10 SB).

I like 5/5 Saber Dance, 2/5 No Foot Rise, 2/5 Closed Position, 1/5 Fan Dance, but I'm used to having good enough support that Fan Dance is genuinely only for very severe situations where my party basically needs a break in the middle of an NM (maybe I need to backwards tank and wait for them to unweaken, etc).

[Tsukino_Kaji]

I like 5/5 Saber Dance, 2/5 No Foot Rise, 2/5 Closed Position, 1/5 Fan Dance, but I'm used to having good enough support that Fan Dance is genuinely only for very severe situations where my party basically needs a break in the middle of an NM (maybe I need to backwards tank and wait for them to unweaken, etc).I end the one tanking ironclad whatever while everyone else is... well, dead. So I need fan to be always up.

[Byrth]

I end the one tanking ironclad whatever while everyone else is... well, dead. So I need fan to be always up.

Yeah... I'm not! If we're fighting Ironclads, generally my group is doing it for Red !! proc anyway, so I go WAR. I'm not sure I've ever fought an Ironclad on Dancer. I'm minorly interested in trying to solo Alfard on DNC. But . . . . lazzyyyy

[Kaeoni]

No it's 5/5 closed possision, 2/3 No foot rise(You don't need more then that.) and 3/5 fan dance. You don't make up for closed possition with gear, you add gear on top of it. Plus, adds emnity. And spoogy? Realy? I've never waste any gear slot for 1% dual weild. Might as well drop your scouter's for a sarashi while you're at it.

You're right, i worded that wrong. What i meant was, the evasion and accuracy given isn't needed. Not only that, it doesn't benefit you 24/7 in every situation and role a dancer fills, so it IS in fact limited if you do decide to merit it. This is my personal Opinion if you did not notice the last sentence i wrote.

No foot rise has no use in my opinion because there is simply no point. You need these extra steps because? Your reverse flourish is on a set timer so you are not gaining any extra TP once you begin to melee. If you're saying you need to because you can't get TP on a mob, you shouldn't have come dancer to the fight in the first place. The only benefit No foot rise gives a person is that once you begin doing said activity you instantly have 5 steps to reverse flourish after gaining 10TP. For the rest of said activity it loses its usefulness because you have TP and steps if you're doing your job right.
Furthermore Dancer has this wonderful Job ability called Presto that can be used every second step rounding out your Step maximum capacity.
The entire reason is that I can gain 5 steps about 2-5 seconds or so faster than i can reverse flourish them so having extra steps does me no good.

My point is, the only reason to have No foot rise is if you can't melee a mob, in which case you shouldn't have shown up to the fight as a dancer.

If you can justify yourself other than just saying "No" please do, otherwise i have no reason to take anything you just said into consideration.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

You're right, i worded that wrong. What i meant was, the evasion and accuracy given isn't needed. not only that, it doesn't benefit you 24/7 in ever situation. It is my personal Opinion if you did not notice the last sentence i wrote.And just because something isn't a constant effect, in my case closed possision is a near constant, don't make it something worthless.
No foot rise has no use in my opinion because there is simply no point. You need these extra steps because? Your reverse flourish is on a set timer so you are not gaining any extra TP once you begin to melee. If you're saying you need to because you can't get TP on a mob, you shouldn't have come dancer to the fight in the first place. The only benefit No foot rise gives a person is that once you begin doing said activity you instantly have 5 steps to reverse flourish after gaining 10TP. For the rest of said activity it loses its usefulness because you have TP and steps if you're doing your job right.
Furthermore Dancer has this wonderful Job ability called Presto that can be used every second step rounding out your Step maximum capacity.
The entire reason is that I can gain 5 steps about 2-5 seconds or so faster than i can reverse flourish them so having extra steps does me no good.

My point is, the only reason to have No foot rise is if you can't melee a mob, in which case you shouldn't have shown up to the fight as a dancer.

If you can justify yourself other than just saying "No" please do, otherwise i have no reason to take anything you just said into consideration.No Foot Rise has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with TP gain. When you're standing around with no mob and no finishing moves, where are you going to get them? But on the note of TP, presto/step/foot/reverse instead of step/step.

[Alkalinehoe]

No Foot Rise has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with TP gain. When you're standing around with no mob and no finishing moves, where are you going to get them?
Please tell me the situation you're describing. It's going to be very, very few where you're surrounded by no mobs. Even then, can't you just build FMs on whatever you're going after? Takes 30 secs max to 5/5...

NFR merits are just for convenience, they aren't usefull at all.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Please tell me the situation you're describing. It's going to be very, very few where you're surrounded by no mobs. Even then, can't you just build FMs on whatever you're going after? Takes 30 secs max to 5/5...

NFR merits are just for convenience, they aren't usefull at all.Standing around, means not fighting, not nothing to fight. Starting of with finishing moves means starting off stonger. And how is TPing during idle unusefull?

[Alkalinehoe]

Standing around, means not fighting, not nothing to fight. Starting of with finishing moves means starting off stonger. And how is TPing during idle unusefull?
Why not fight something then? =/ You get FMs before the fight, starting off "stronger" and don't have to waste merits on NFR. You could also use a regain atma if you're in Abyssea too. Though it's really not hard to pop Saber Dance before whatever you're gonna fight, do your steps/gain TP very quickly.

[Kaeoni]

Again i never said Closed position was worthless, i said it was limited. therein lies the difference.

No foot Rise has a lot to do with TP gain being the only Flourish worth spending your steps on besides Violent Flourish and Reverse Flourish.
Presto/step/14sec/Evisceration/step/reverse/Evisceration/presto/step ect ect. Is generally how mine works, Though when i use anything with an animation i pair it with something else so as to maximize my Output of dmg.
Animation delay is reduced. Keep them in pairs, any higher it counts as 2 ie. 3 animations in a row.
It's also on a 3 minute timer so you can't keep that rotation up. Standing around with no mob with no finishing moves? if you took a break from exp or something why can't you keep the same rotation i just specified? why is it you're in dire need of these finishing moves exactly, you should have some TP and can get 5 finishing moves in 15 seconds once you engage a mob.

[Yoku]

Um... ok?

Aurore has better evasion then your body and more DD stats.... Airy ring for Eva? lulz, Torero>Eva Torque, lolfusetto, Charis tights+1???. Emissary boots??, I dunno why you called my eva set fail when yours is worse.

If you think so! But i bet i can tank you out.

[Alkalinehoe]

If you think so! But i bet i can tank you out.

Apart from the fact that I have more evasion AND more DD stats than you... I'd say you'd be losing.

[Yoku]

Eva and DD gear is not all to be a good tank.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Speaking of which. WHat is your guys' WS sets?

[Alkalinehoe]

Eva and DD gear is not all to be a good tank.
And you can gauge this through my gear? r u a wizard?

[Byrth]

Evisceration in Abyssea: http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/169187
Rudra's in Abyssea: http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/194288 (Earring is TP Bonus +25/Atk+4)

I'm fairly sure those are current and optimal with Red Curry Buns as a Taru DNC/NIN. My offhand dagger varies based on what I'm doing and where I am.

Also, I use No Foot Rise to replace my Finishing moves so I can go Evisceration -> Striking Flourish -> NFR -> RF -> Rudra's Storm and close with the better WS.

[Jesterking]

It seems people are overlooking the positional requirement of Closed Position... But Anyways, I did 5/5 NFR because I like to have the freedom to burn through my FMs whenever I want. It's not about TP gain, although I do use it for that when I'm running around pre-fights and such. I don't use Regain Atmas anymore so I like to have TP before the fights start. But you can't deny the utility of using your FMs and TP on a WS and then getting hit with a lot of damage and being able to instantly pop NFR->RF for 87 TP (AF3+1 Gloves) and cure yourself, and with that amount of TP you can use any of the 5 Waltzes. I WS when I solo stuff, cuz I'm sick of things taking forever so I like being able to pop FMs on whatever. It's easy to get them and easier to spend them. My ACC is fine, my EVA is fine. I'd rather having something with more utility then Closed Position. I never have problems hitting things, honestly most people shouldn't at this stage in the game. I evade like crazy as it is, I have a nice evasion set that also has a lot of accuracy on it. 2 more points into Closed Position is hardly going to make a difference. You can cap out evasion and accuracy with just gear, so there's really no reason for 5/5 CP. If things really go awry, I have a -PDT/MDT set as well as Fan Dance to fall back on. Nothing wrong with blood tanking on DNC, with all the ways we have to mitigate damage.

There was more I had to say but I got distracted and forgot, I'll amend this post if I remember or post a reply if somebody reminds me.

EDIT: Here's my WS Set Currently: http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/199717 the Etoile Mantle switches with Nifty Mantle for Evisceration. DNC is what I consider my main, so I'm working on fixing my gear constantly.

[Frost]

STARTING THE POST with the TL/DR part: Evasion is mostly useless for Dancer tanking.

Read the post fully, don't skim, for the rest of the info. I know it's daunting, but I tried to keep it simple.

__________________
For TP I typically go Charis +2 for everything but gloves, which are Ocelot.
Weapons are Phurba and Kila +2 (Evasion (Irony sure to follow)) And Charis Feather in ranged.
Filling in the gaps is pretty obvious, Rajas, Epona's, Twilight belt, Charis Neck, Suppa, Brutal, and Atheling.

I pop on a hunk of Evasion/fastcast/haste for casting/recasts, usually Mini Expansion Gear with Fastcast/Evasion Augs. Stuff like that.

Weaponskills are pretty straight forward too. Start with the relevant Weapnskill Gorget & Belt, and go from there for dex.

Aias Bonnet, Soil Gorget, Pixie Earring(lazy atm to get anything better), Brutal, Loki's, Charis Hands+2, Rajas, Eponas, Vigilance Mantle, Soil Belt, Tumbler Trunks, Charis+2 Feet.

I been thinking of using the Issen Hachimaki over the Aias Bonnet while in Abyssea, just because Conserve TP seems a lot more noticeable in there than 8 Str and 8 Dex... But I just can't seem to bring myself to do that yet.

___________________
I merited 5/5 Haste Samba, Reverse Flourish Effect, Fan Dance, and No Foot Rise.
Of those only Fan Dance and No Foot Rise have really proven to be useful to me. (Being honest here..)
I always got Fan Dance up while tanking, I'm always tanking; so Haste Samba provides little benefit to me. I use Wild Flourish every 60 seconds, which makes Reverse Flourish nearly useless to me(while fighting).

But the merits I got keep me versatile. So If I am in a party, and before I pull hate(lol) I can do other stuff.

__________________
I guess the good marker of success is what I've killed right? And normally I'd agree, but Dnc is such an annoying job, it CAN solo stuff, but there's a massive difference between 'soloing something' and 'boring something to death'... Killing Div-e Sepid is one thing... But taking 30 minutes to do so is another. I tend to gear towards the killing end of the spectrum... I usually see these 'Pink Dancers' boring things to death in way too much evasion and not enough haste(insert obvious haste bias joke here).

So what should you gear for?

When gearing to "tank" or "solo", it's really easy to lose sight of what you NEED versus what you think you need. I am reading the build people are posting here, and not to start any fires, there's a few flaws I see. All pointing to Evasion.

Outside or inside Abyssea, how much evasion you need weighs heavily on what you're fighting. If it's Tough or higher, you're dealing with a level correction that typically makes added evasion useless, as there's generally a minimum you can evade, and usually most players are already there with basic gear/buffs/job traits. It it's not tough or higher, you're fighting stuff that's EM or lower in which case you're capped on evasion practically nude. Inside Abyssea is pretty much the same story, only you add +60 Agi minimum from Crour buffs typically, and considering the mobs are VT-ish, both scales slide, but in opposition to one another.

In either case, Evasion Gear is not really needed; it DOES help, but not as much as folks think it does. a TW mob is guaranteed a 5% chance at hitting you, a Tough typically 10 - 20%, Very Tough to Incredibly Tough you're talking in the range of 30 - 60% accuracy; whether you have +5 evasion or + 3,000 evasion. It's just how the game is coded.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Read the post fully, don't skim, for the rest of the info. I know it's daunting, but I tried to keep it simple.Can I get an abridged version or a book an tape?

[Frost]

Can I get an abridged version or a book an tape?

Lol....

Short Story: Level Corrections make the "Your Evasion vs. Monster's Accuracy" challenge favor DD gear, in almost all cases. I.E. with normal gear, you should be at the evasion cap, or near it.

[Kaeoni]

Can I get an abridged version or a book an tape?

made me lol irl. XD

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Lol....

Short Story: Level Corrections make the "Your Evasion vs. Monster's Accuracy" challenge favor DD gear, in almost all cases. I.E. with normal gear, you should be at the evasion cap, or near it.So we'll work in the other direction because I like closed possision. 5/5 CP and 4/4 eva merits with a pair of +20s. Where dose that leave the gear?

[Byrth]

It depends a lot on the monster. Your best bet is to have several Evasion set levels and use whatever seems appropriate. Obviously you can't wait for a statistically significant sample size before you change (aka you'll be eyeballing) but you can probably do pretty well. You want to wear the most DD gear you can while still not having trouble keeping up shadows.

[Frost]

So we'll work in the other direction because I like closed possision. 5/5 CP and 4/4 eva merits with a pair of +20s. Where dose that leave the gear?

You can "like closed position" but why? You're not even using it. Idk if you missed the point or are just being snooty.

What's the point of asking for advice/help, if you don't even want to read said advice/help?

[Tsukino_Kaji]

You can "like closed position" but why? You're not even using it.I think you're missing the point of I am the person constanty face-to-face with the mob so there is never a point where it is not working.

[Frost]

I think you're missing the point of I am the person constanty face-to-face with the mob so there is never a point where it is not working.

Except you're capped on accuracy and you're capped on evasion. So no, you're not using it...

If you're not looking for advice, and you're more bent of displaying the merits of your choices in the face of conflicting information fine, carry on.

But that's tantamount to one saying "What tool should I use on screws? Don't tell me to use a Screwdriver, I already want to use a hammer!"

This is one of the drawbacks of not reading what people post, I've already explained why you shouldn't typically need/use Closed Position and/or Evasion gear while tanking, but since you've glazed over it and missed the point, you just look like a fool now. The information is on this very page, if you chose not to read it fine, but it's ill advised to peruse a position that's already been proven inferior or false, especially when it's you looking for advice.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Except you're capped on accuracy and you're capped on evasion. So no, you're not using it...So you're saying that when my base evasion skill by job, hits it's skill cap. Then merits and gear do nothing for it.

[Jesterking]

No, what he's saying, I believe is that, once you hit a certain level of evasion, it doesn't matter how much more you put on, your evasion will stay at that level. It's like how the perfect gear Haste cap is 26%, you can stack all the haste you want and get up to 50%, but you won't swing any faster at 50% then you would if you only had 26%.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Right, but he keeps bad mouthing closed possision like you already have all the eva and acc you need once you hit 90. I'm not trying to put on more, I'm trying to put on what's needed after merits are taken into concideration. That means less gear that has to be eva only. This is what he seems to fail to see.

[Frost]

For the most part, correct. I'm not saying they do NOTHING, but for dancer, you have a tremendously high evasion skill, evasion bonuses, and agility; and most of your standard TP gear adds more to that. The only time you might need more of those is if you're fighting something possessing an accuracy bonus. Typically....

For every level the mob is above you, it gets a 4% hit rate on you. There's nothing you can do about that. Any IT mob gets a guaranteed 40% hit rate on you.

Your B+ Evasion with 2-3 Evasion bonuses, + 1-2 Evasion Daggers and AF3 Pants. You're close to cap in most cases where you're tanking.

So adding more evasion = Either you're wasting your time evading something that mathematically is just going to hit you no matter what you do, or you're evading something that isn't going to hit you to begin with.


Right, but he keeps bad mouthing closed possision like you already have all the eva and acc you need once you hit 90. I'm not trying to put on more, I'm trying to put on what's needed after merits are taken into concideration. That means less gear that has to be eva only. This is what he seems to fail to see.

I'm not 'bad mouthing' Closed Position, so much as I am stating it's not needed. I didn't say it was "Bad", just "Unnecessary".

Highlighted the part that speaks accurately.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Therefore with capped closed possision I could drop gear for something with more potent DD stats while still maintianing tanking. CP also has emity, which makes it a good thing.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

To make it easier on you, I change my topic to "What is DNC DD gear?"

[Frost]

Another angle of argument would be this:

Would you rather evade 7% more hits and fight the mob for x minutes?
Or kill the mob in half the time?

Arguably, killing a mob in half the time is evading 50% of it's hits right?

I mean that's an oversimplification sure, but there's a lot of truth in the example.


Therefore with capped closed possision I could drop gear for something with more potent DD stats while still maintianing tanking. CP also has emity, which makes it a good thing.

You could do that, sure, you could also merit No Foot Rise and learn to use your Finishing moves better; perhaps stun more frequently, that's a really good way to evade attacks. Or Merit Sabre Dance for when you have support.

Still doesn't fix the fact that you're likely going to be close to cap on accuracy and evasion whether of not you have closed position.

Closed Position Does not give emnity btw, been checking and double checking, it's not listed anywhere that it does.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

You could do that, sure, you could also merit No Foot Rise and learn to use your Finishing moves better; perhaps stun more frequently, that's a really good way to evade attacks. Merited and used frequently.

[Byrth]

Okay, so!

Arguing that Closed Position is irrelevant because most things in the game miss you already is like arguing Double Attack is irrelevant because you kill a lot of the things in the game with one swing. Last I heard we don't gear and merit for old content, we gear for new content and the hardest content. If I felt like meritting and gearing for EP monster fights (like Visions NMs), then I wouldn't even need an evasion build.

On Tier 2 NMs of Heroes content (and some mean Tier 1 NMs) we still have trouble knocking their hitrate down low. If you're going to duo or trio these NMs, it helps if you can strike a balance of damage dealt and hits evaded, especially if you're the only tank and it does hate reset or something. These are the situation where our performance matters the most, and these are the situations where Closed Position helps the most. Again, I'm 5/1/2/2, but there are definitely times that I wish I was 5 CP. Heck, I wish I could 5/5 all the T2 merits.

Plus, it's silly to deem CP merits worthless and claim we cap evade rate on everything without stating the Atma you're using. RR/GH/Siren's Shadow, Dark Depths, or Cloak and Dagger is going to be a different experience than RR/GH/Apoc, though the latter will do better damage.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Arguing that Closed Position is irrelevant because most things in the game miss you already is like arguing Double Attack is irrelevant because you kill a lot of the things in the game with one swing.You mean saying that things miss me because of closed position and not gear is wrong why?

[Rieul]

As far as gear to tank in, keep the DMG up and Violent Flourish as needed, it really won't matter what you wear in abyssea.
Outside abyssea? Most mobs cower in fear of you at 90.
Put on a SH and any subligar (the pastier the better).

Mmk. My merits in DNC:
Step acc x3
Reverse Flourish x5
Building Flourish x2
Saber Dance x1
Fan Dance x1
No Foot Rise x5
Closed Position x3
Lemme 'splain something. No Foot Rise is not a waste of merits IF used properly.
Say you have 100%TP and 5x steps stored. One might think 'that's too bad'. However… you can Building flourish that and then Striking or Climatic flourish it (depending on where you are/mob/etc), after that you have about 8 seconds to wait for Reverse Flourish and about 54 seconds to WS with a Building boost. So wait about 5 seconds then PK ===> Reverse Flourish ===> Evis (don't ask why PK 1st or I will cry) = happy DNC darkness time.
Some might agree, some might not. Personally I don't give a damn, I just can't stand people being closed minded to different ways about doing things.

[Frost]

Stuff..

Except you only need to evade that which you're getting hit for...

If you can only evade 60% of the time because the monster is guaranteed that level of hit rate, you don't need to gear/merit/etc for 90% evasion, only 60%, and as you said on "New content" usually the mobs are even higher level, guaranteeing an even higher hit rate, lessening the value of Evasion further.

In inverse, what would be the point of adding more accuracy if you're hitting 100% of the time? (Yes I know the cap is 95%, just saying...)

Please don't get me wrong, I know there is a value in evasion. I still use some, and I do speak a little too "Generally". And a lot of this advice is limited to Dancers based on what they have available to them. I said earlier, if a mob has an accuracy bonus, as some do, more evasion does help. And there were four other posts at least that said they use varying degrees of evasion based on the mob. I am not the only one suggesting this.

All I said is people go way overboard on evasion when it's not needed. I.E. if you're evading 60% on a mob ten levels your senior, good, you're capped. Adding more evasion to that isn't going to do anything for you.

[Byrth]

As far as I know, the Evasion floor for all content is 20%. I know that my Thief friend (and regular dual tanking partner) parsed an 80% Evade rate on Hedjedjet.

Do you have any proof to back up what you're saying?

[Tsukino_Kaji]

As far as I know, the Evasion floor for all content is 20%. I know that my Thief friend (and regular dual tanking partner) parsed an 80% Evade rate on Hedjedjet.

Do you have any proof to back up what you're saying?Inquiring SAM with +96eva want to know. lol

[Frost]

As far as I know, the Evasion floor for all content is 20%. I know that my Thief friend (and regular dual tanking partner) parsed an 80% Evade rate on Hedjedjet.

Do you have any proof to back up what you're saying?

If the evasion floor was actually at 20% for all content, then no one would be hitting at 95% accuracy.

Level Correction. Every level the mob is your superior it gets a 4% increase in hit rate.
If Hedjedjet was hittign at 20% accuracy, it means, likely, that Hedjedjet is level 95. 5 levels x 4% = 20% accuracy.

[Byrth]

95% Hit Rate Cap has nothing to do with the Evasion floor (they're the bounds of hit rate on opposite sides: I'll now refer to it as Hit Rate Floor), and Level correction adds 4 evasion to the monster per level but I've seen no evidence that it affects the Hit Rate Floor at all. Level 0 monsters have 20% Accuracy on me. That's the Hit rate floor I'm talking about.

Example: It was possible to floor level 90 HNMs accuracy when we were 75. By your math we would have had a 40% Evade rate max on them.

[Alkalinehoe]

From the testing I've seen, max evade rate is 80%.

[Kaeoni]

Both Jesterking and Rieul brought it up, a practical use of NFR. So, i retract my statement about it being totally useless. Thanks for clarifying and actually explaining why you merited it. Something for me to think about anyways if i decide to toy around with my G2.

Tsukino_Kaji's Reason for using CP isn't false. I'm not going to debate if the mob is always facing you or not now, but when it is his reasoning is sound. You don't need to sub out as much Haste, attack, dual wield, Ect, just for a comfortable evasion Tier, it would help you facilitate hate in that respect. It's not a huge boost sure, but it helps.

Its not how i go about tanking on Dnc, and i do feel fan and saber 5/5 is far superior. However that doesn't make anyone here wrong. I just dislike when someone up and rejects someone else's idea just because it's not what they would do. If you're wondering "why did you do that?" ask, don't assume or out right say "No" that's wrong.

We've the right to merit how we want, it's part of what sets us apart (and makes me better than you). jk d=

yea i heard max evade rate is 80% as well.

[Amanie]

numerical data please, would be very helpful no?

[Tsukino_Kaji]

So capped, 4/4 eva, 5/5 CP and +40 dagger. Am I capped yet?

[Byrth]

So capped, 4/4 eva, 5/5 CP and +40 dagger. Am I capped yet?

Against what? >.> <,< >.>

I'm assuming you're trolling, but monsters have individual accuracies based on their job and levels. It's impossible to make one set that optimally caps you, as you will need different amounts to cap in different situations.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Against what? >.> <,< >.>The biggest baddest thing ever.

[Jesterking]

Mmk. My merits in DNC:
Step acc x3
Reverse Flourish x5
Building Flourish x2


Lack of Haste Samba merits makes me cry. Or more so, the fact you have Step Accuracy merits. Regular Accuracy gear is the same as Step Accuracy. Unnecessary merits. I've said it before, you shouldn't have problems hitting things at this stage in the game. Plus, Presto gives a huge accuracy bonus to steps anyways.

I get that you want to play different, but that's just a waste. Haste Samba will increase your damage dealt, as well as everyone else benefiting from the samba. And with the set bonus from AF3+2 you'll most likely, and should have a Samba up always.

[Frost]

SO I was wrong, and to redeem myself I worked hard to fill in the missing information where I was wrong.

I got mixed up, you're right, the floor is 20%. A bit got flipped in my head on that one. That was just me being an idiot and associating things that aren't linked.

And you're right, the bonus per level is 4 accuracy, not 4% hit rate. (Which bombs all my arguments for the most part, as that was the basis for my logic...)

Hit Rate = 75% + (Accuracy - Evasion) x 0.5% + (Attacker's Level - Defender's Level) x 2%


So the following is a breakdown:

Assuming your total base evasion is equal to the monster's total accuracy and assuming the monster is your level:

You would evade 25% of the time.

To cap, assuming that +2 Evasion = -1% hit rate, you would need 110 evasion to cap under the above assumptions.

For every level the monster is your senior, you would need 4 additional evasion per level to maintain capped evasion. Assuming they don't get any additional accuracy bonuses.
_____________________________________

My Evasion Sources:

Evasion Bonus III: 35
Dagger: 20
Pants +2: 15
Evasion from AGI on gear(20): 10
Total evasion from my personal bonuses: roughly 80

So if the mob "Even Match", and was a B+ in "Bashing its head against things" that would go with my evasion, assuming the monsters DEX matched my AGI. From that point I would be 25% evasive, and the above bonuses would put me at 65% total evasion roughly.

So to Cap, I would still need an additional 30 evasion.
Or 60 AGI, which, in Abyssea, is really easy to get. Assuming you got all the Furtherance buffs, and moderate influence in either Dominion or Bastion, you got that covered. Leaving all the fine tuning for level corrections to rest on the shoulders of any thing else you can add.

Gnarled Horn could buy you 6 levels.
Another Evasion Dagger would get you 6 levels.
Closed Position almost 4 levels fully merited.
4/4 Evasion Merits would be just under 2 levels (Assuming they suffer the same penalty after 200 skill).
Torero Torque just over 2.
Evasion Torque, just under 2.
Boxer's Mantle 2, half way to 3.

But as stated just now, each monster gets bonuses and penalties that are hard to account for.

____________________________________

To answer your question specifically.
Versus most(not all) things in Abyssea, assuming you have:
capped combat skills,
5/5 Closed Position,
4/4 evasion merits,
both your daggers are Evasion Daggers,
all the Furtherance Abyssites,
Low to moderate influence in Dominion or Bastion,
AND use at least Gnarled Horn or Dark Depths Atma (no reason not to as a dnc)...

It would be safe to say you're pretty much capped, and still leaves you capable of going full Haste gear, and use Razed Ruins + Apoc on your remaining two Atmas.

You could still probably drop the Closed Position Merits and be Capped in Abyssea.

[Rieul]

Lack of Haste Samba merits makes me cry. Or more so, the fact you have Step Accuracy merits. Regular Accuracy gear is the same as Step Accuracy. Unnecessary merits. I've said it before, you shouldn't have problems hitting things at this stage in the game. Plus, Presto gives a huge accuracy bonus to steps anyways.

I get that you want to play different, but that's just a waste. Haste Samba will increase your damage dealt, as well as everyone else benefiting from the samba. And with the set bonus from AF3+2 you'll most likely, and should have a Samba up always.

I see why you said what said. (Feel free to skip to the last sentence)
Haste Samba Merits only affect Haste.
I chose against HS due to the fact that there is Drain and Aspir Samba. You may want to maxxxor out your hastorz or whatever but I wanted something that was practical in all situations.
When you use Drain Samba or Aspir Samba, don't you feel like you wasted those merits? Perhaps not.

No, Step acc is not a waste imo; I solo a lot of NM and whatnot inside and out of abyseea.
Outside at 90, sure it's overkill but then I can put more focus into ATK, DEX or even CHR.
The last thing you want is to miss a step as DNC.

Again, take it or leave it. To each their own.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

So I'll switch my head to that -12 one with the 4% haste. lol

[Frost]

So I'll switch my head to that -12 one with the 4% haste. lol

Link >>> Don't be a fool... (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Charis_Tiara_%2B2)

[Kaeoni]

No, Step acc is not a waste imo; I solo a lot of NM and whatnot inside and out of abyseea.
Outside at 90, sure it's overkill but then I can put more focus into ATK, DEX or even CHR.
The last thing you want is to miss a step as DNC.



You make it sound like you want to stack more atk dex and chr on your steps. Steps don't do any damage. I'm confused, could you clarify?

Though dancer can now cap -Delay without haste samba entirely, i just figured that was your reason. I keep it around for other people honestly~

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Link >>> Don't be a fool... (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Charis_Tiara_%2B2)It was 90 the night the servers were shut down, I ain't got charis nothin'. lol

[Frost]

You make it sound like you want to stack more atk dex and chr on your steps. Steps don't do any damage. I'm confused, could you clarify?

Though dancer can now cap -Delay without haste samba entirely, i just figured that was your reason. I keep it around for other people honestly~

What? Can you spell that out for me?

[Frost]

It was 90 the night the servers were shut down, I ain't got charis nothin'. lol

Fair enough.
Soloing the Seal NMs is easy for +1 (Don't fear Berstuk cause it's a caster... Hes stupid easy to interrupt), and soloing the T1/2 VNMs is a pain because of competition, but the T3 is easy, but pointless to solo w/out magic triggers.

[Byrth]

What? Can you spell that out for me?

2x Marches with AF3+2 hands = 23.5% Haste
Haste = 15% Haste
Gear = 25% Haste

.2/(1-.235-.15-.25) = .55

So we need 45% Dual Wield to cap delay without Haste Samba. Fortunately we have access to 30% from traits and 18% from gear, so we can.

Drain Samba and Aspir Samba are a waste of time and TP though, so you're better off using Haste Samba still and either dropping gear Haste or Dual Wield back.

To clarify the sentiment of my post:
Only failures don't merit Haste Samba.

[Frost]

lol ok.. I thought he meant solo... that's why I asked...

[Kaeoni]

What? Can you spell that out for me?

T h o u g h
D a n c e r
c a n
n o w
c a p
- d e l a y
w i t h o u t
h a s t e
s a m b a
e n t i r e l y

Not without buffs from others naturally, this applies with the vast majority of other jobs. This is primarily the reason dancers are no longer visited as a party member as they once were. We don't actually make anyone hit any faster with marches and haste in effect. No longer a difference maker. If you lack haste or march or both, Haste samba regains its value.

Let me break it down for you:

Haste gained from Equipment (including Catastrophe) caps at 25%. Haste gained from magical effects (spells/songs) caps at ~43.75%. Haste gained from Job Abilities officially caps at 25%. (Job Ability Haste does not affect spell recast timers.) Recast time reduction is capped at 50%, regardless of how much Haste the character currently has. Haste caps out at ~80%, combined from all sources.

Haste =15%
Gear haste =25%
Dual marches = 40%

hope none of you failed at math because the cap is 80% and thats right on the money.

In case no one knows, Haste Samba falls under the job ability category along with JA's like Hasso

I hope i spelled that out good enough for you

(DW not included)

Edit: oh someone half beat me to it =/ afk

[Byrth]

Regardless of what conditions you're using, your numbers are outdated or you're doing your math wrong.

With 600 skill and +2 March, Victory March gives 12.5% Haste and Advancing March gives 9% Haste. Both fall under the magic Haste cap. There is now another march+2 available (G-horn and AF3+2 hands).

Delay reduction caps at 80%, which includes Dual Wield and is the only reason your statement is true. Read my post above and see if you can get a feel for how to calculate it properly.

[Rieul]

You make it sound like you want to stack more atk dex and chr on your steps. Steps don't do any damage. I'm confused, could you clarify?

No, they don't directly, however I still utilize Box Step and Feather Step is nice too.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

No, they don't directly, however I still utilize Box Step and Feather Step is nice too.Speaking of steps. What's with this step cap bull? Why did they have to make it that if I use a step that is already reached 5, it only grants 1 finishing move instead of 2?

[Alkalinehoe]

Not sure why you would want to use DW over Haste Samba. If you're lucky enough to be receiving BRD buffs, I'd rather fit in that 10% haste samba then use 10% DW gear. Unlike DW, haste does not lower your tp gained per hit making it much more beneficial than DW. And chances are, if you're using a BRD, you most likely have another or few more DDs on the mob so your Haste Samba will be benefiting them as well.

[Alkalinehoe]

Haste =15%
Gear haste =25%
Dual marches = 40%


Where are you pulling this extra 15% out off?
I hope you know Haste (spell) and March (spell) are both counted as magic haste, so with both you'd hit 38.5% haste, (43.75% if you SV).

You aren't capping -Delay Reduction without a lot of DW gear on (assuming No haste Samba like you said).

And I don't understand your reasoning, DNCs still make the vast majority of DDs hit faster. If you're in a party with other DDs being expected to give Haste Samba, you're contributing greatly. Must I find the haste thread? going from 63% haste to 73% is a pretty big deal. And if you happen to have 1 handers you're giving HS too, tell them to take off some of their DW gear to compensate. Haste>DW.

No one should be capping JA haste by themselves anyways, unless they are a DRK and only for 30 seconds out of 4 minutesish.

[Dragen]

Any other dancers out there using dual - PDT daggers along with other - PDT gear and fan dance? As has been talked about alot in this thread, you can only evade so much depending on what you fight.

[headstrong]

meh hate u so much right now <.< idk why but i never thought about pdt daggers.. tho it could be a really sweet thing.. the trials dont look that bad either..
meh i need to stop collect daggers ~.~

maybe its just me but i really dont see dancer eva to be that good ._. if i dont take any eva atmas, i cant just tank things in full haste like i do it on thf >: for most stuff i need to bring my eva gear.. or at least dual eva daggers to be ~ok

[Jesterking]

THF naturally has 20 higher Evasion skill then DNC does (THF 361 vs DNC 341). It's a huge difference. They can hit the evasion cap with a lot less gear.

@Rieul I don't understand why you would choose to use Drain Samba or God forbid, Aspir Samba over Haste Samba, yes, Drain Samba has it's utility but if I'm in a party with other people, nobody wants Drain Samba. The only reason I use Drain Samba is either by accident or when I'm killing really weak stuff so I don't waste my TP on Waltzing myself and save TP for WSs. Or if Saber Dance is up and I don't want to click it off to Waltz myself.

In no way is Haste Samba merits a waste. Step Accuracy is. If you miss Steps, add more ACC to your macro. It's as simple as that.

[headstrong]

mh tbh i was thinking about dropping my haste samba merits for step accuracy lately ~.~
i use step acc hands/feet/earring + acc gear on steps already but theres still those moments where presto > step > fail > next step > fail > rage -.-

almost never use haste samba tho ._. the only times when i'm on dnc i'm solo and either fan dance and tanking or soloing some easy mobs and sabre dance + 50/50 drain or haste

[Jesterking]

mh tbh i was thinking about dropping my haste samba merits for step accuracy lately ~.~
i use step acc hands/feet/earring + acc gear on steps already but theres still those moments where presto > step > fail > next step > fail > rage -.-

There are ways to remedy this without getting Step Accuracy Merits. Such as food, more accuracy gear, Dagger merits, and if it comes down to it, Quickstep is the most accurate step, so drop a quickstep or two on it if you really need to land the steps. You'd be hurting yourself by dropping Haste Samba merits.

[headstrong]

guess i will need to start cooking some pizza again.. love em on thf anyways
actually i dont think i could ever bring me to drop my haste samba merits anyways..
meh i just really hate missing steps ><

[scaevola]

Double evasion kilas and prioritize haste/dw on gear, followed by ago/Eva/subtle blow. Saber dance and let the whm heal me, or drop sd every 3 minutes to top myself off. If overall damage mitigation were more important than enmity generation, plds would not be in nearly as awful a state as they are; doing things like using scouters over a haste belt or empress hairpin over charis is questionable in my mind.

Maybe if you're fighting a gnat, I guess.

[Rieul]

THF naturally has 20 higher Evasion skill then DNC does (THF 361 vs DNC 341). It's a huge difference. They can hit the evasion cap with a lot less gear.… ((not counting CP, I presume?))


@Rieul I don't understand why you would choose to use Drain Samba or God forbid, Aspir Samba over Haste Samba, yes, Drain Samba has it's utility but if I'm in a party with other people, nobody wants Drain Samba. The only reason I use Drain Samba is either by accident or when I'm killing really weak stuff so I don't waste my TP on Waltzing myself and save TP for WSs. Or if Saber Dance is up and I don't want to click it off to Waltz myself.

In no way is Haste Samba merits a waste. Step Accuracy is. If you miss Steps, add more ACC to your macro. It's as simple as that.

As DNC/WHM, I can cast haste on myself and still use Drain Samba, if I run low on MP, (gogo ethereal) I can use Aspir Samba (mob permitting of course)
No, I don't think Step Acc is the end-all-be-all for DNC merits. However what i don't need in ACC I make up for with more ATK, DEX, STR or haste% even.
If you don't like it, noone said you had to do it my way. I am NOT trying to tell ANYONE how to play.
I was explaining my reasoning, nothing more.

[Frost]

Don't forget on top of the 20 skill thief get, they also get Evasion Bonuses IV & V, adding another 35 Raw evasion to the mix on top of what the skill adds.

[Jesterking]

As DNC/WHM, I can cast haste on myself and still use Drain Samba, if I run low on MP, (gogo ethereal) I can use Aspir Samba (mob permitting of course)
No, I don't think Step Acc is the end-all-be-all for DNC merits. However what i don't need in ACC I make up for with more ATK, DEX, STR or haste% even.
If you don't like it, noone said you had to do it my way. I am NOT trying to tell ANYONE how to play.
I was explaining my reasoning, nothing more.

Fair enough.

[Mara]

FAIL!
...
You dont need Eva dagger and Aurore Body is allways fail!

Um... what? seriously?
News flash, having 2xKila+2s means you don't even have to wear a single other piece of evasion for most things. Not having at least one is incredibly retarded and lazy. And strictly speaking of evasion tanking scenarios, how, exactly, does aurore body fail? Because you don't like the color? It's got the same eva and acc as a SH plus STR (not exactly a huge bonus) and double attack.

[scaevola]

If you think so! But i bet i can tank you out.

No matter how good you are, you'd be better if you got rid of stuff like Furia Vest and Airy Ring.