kikoku and its aftermath

[vixin]

With the level cap goign past 75 the effectivness of Kikoku's aftermath seems to be inferior to that of kannagi or nagi. I purpose it either changes to something different or augments subtle blows. The augment could either be Silent blows allowing a % chance to give 0 tp off a hit or maybe a cheap en spell for all i care, dmg would be based on subtle blows with armor, traits, and merits for a reasonable dot dmg.

[Babekeke]

The worst thing about Kikoku's aftermath is that it requires you to use Metsu in the first place.

The best thing about Kannagi's aftermath is that you were most likely going to use Hi anyway.

P.S. I think the word you wanted is propose, not purpose. Not trying to get at you.

[vixin]

blade metsu dmg out side is 2-3.3k out side unless blade HI is out dmging that out side and in vw, that would make kikoku inferior, it also has 20% chance to do x3 dmg on auto attacks. I'm not trying to say kikoku beast kannagi but lets get looks at the "numbers" kikoku isn't a crappy weapon unless you aby only then your kannagi wins.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Target/ buffs/Kikoku level? I find all of that highly unlikely from what I've seen.

Quick Math has Kikoku just about doing that on DC mobs and trailing far behind those numbers on a T3 VWNM.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Still didn't list the Target... and as far as I can see you're cherry picking high values, that is most certainly not an average against anything with moderate defense.

[vixin]

it was Aello, but none the less this post has nothing to do about blade metsu but kikoku's
aftermath

[Lyrminas]

blade metsu dmg out side is 2-3.3k out side unless blade HI is out dmging that out side and in vw, that would make kikoku inferior, it also has 20% chance to do x3 dmg on auto attacks. I'm not trying to say kikoku beast kannagi but lets get looks at the "numbers" kikoku isn't a crappy weapon unless you aby only then your kannagi wins.

Regarding Aftermath
Yeah the aftermath is very underwhelming, I recently obtained a kikoku and currently on the 90stage and 99 to come. It would be nice if it had a moderate plague effect or Amnesia, both of which should have a decent land rate on higher lvl content ( I know that might be broken xD ), but anything better than 10 SB >_< Or the ability to exceed the SB cap of 50% at the very least.... I don't know, what do you guys think?

Regarding Damage
I don't know what you are using to generate that kind of numbers, Mine are all over the place, and without triple or double going off I don't see the numbers getting remotely close to Blade: Shun, would you care to post your gear or if someone could shed light on what I'm doing wrong xD. Currently using

Main: Kikoku (90)
Sub: STR Arisui

Head: Ocelomeh Headpiece
Neck: Thunder Gorget
Earring: Brutal Earring
Earring: Moonshade 4atk 25%TP Bonus
Body: Toci's Harness
Hands: Iga Tekko +2
Ring: Rajas Ring
Ring: Thundersoul Ring
Back: Atheling Mantle
Belt: Anguinus Belt
Legs: Byakko's Haidate
Feet: Athos / Koga +2

I find Shun is highly stable damage, whereas the Metsu is highly unpredictable...

[vixin]

i like your input on the plague alot tbh they should adjust relic ws to multi hit ws like animation is not single hits my off hand rranges tbh i dont use str katana but i do have dex katanas and TP bonsu ToM for shun pumps good numbers spaming it at 100 tp.
ocelomh +1 , toic harness, x2 jupiter pearls, raja/epona ring, iga tekko+2, atheling mantle, dilarams' solleretts,cuhulains belt, moepapa medal, reacton arm, byakko shorts.

[wish12oz]

You're suppose to use Shun with Kikoku, not Metsu. If you stop using the inferior WS you won't have a problem with the aftermath anymore because you won't get it. What makes the relic good is the random triple damage procs, high base damage and the 40 attack. Metsu is trash, aftermath is trash, stop using them, gear for Shun correctly, problem fixed.

[vixin]

over all lyr i think the str/attack katana off hand is a good option for metus usually when you get tonic or attack buffs with metus dmg jumps alot higher.

[Dragoy]

You're suppose to use Shun with Kikoku, not Metsu. If you stop using the inferior WS you won't have a problem with the aftermath anymore because you won't get it. What makes the relic good is the random triple damage procs, high base damage and the 40 attack. Metsu is trash, aftermath is trash, stop using them, gear for Shun correctly, problem fixed.
I'd say for the trouble (yes even today, still) Metsu should by far be the superior weapon skill. So I wouldn't say "you are supposed not use it" because that just makes no sense. Rather "the developers are supposed to do something about it" instead of us just supposedly having to live with it.

You're basically saying: "please do not make Metsu better".
Good fer you, if you are happy as it is. ^^;

I, for one, would definitely like it to be improved, as I might actually some day make the Kikoku.

[wish12oz]

I'd say for the trouble (yes even today, still) Metsu should by far be the superior weapon skill. So I wouldn't say "you are supposed not use it" because that just makes no sense. Rather "the developers are supposed to do something about it" instead of us just supposedly having to live with it.

You're basically saying: "please do not make Metsu better".
Good fer you, if you are happy as it is. ^^;

I, for one, would definitely like it to be improved, as I might actually some day make the Kikoku.

The 3 people who still work on this game have better things to do then waste time on something that doesn't need fixed. If you want to use the WS a weapon for NIN offers, make a Kannagi and stop being bad at FFXI and asking the Devs to waste what little resources/time they have on this trash.

[Dragoy]

The 3 people who still work on this game have better things to do then waste time on something that doesn't need fixed. If you want to use the WS a weapon for NIN offers, make a Kannagi and stop being bad at FFXI and asking the Devs to waste what little resources/time they have on this trash.
I am actually thinking of making a Kannagi, too, and even a Kogarasumaru, but all that is still under development, and yalms beside the point.

Moreover, methinks our concepts of being good in a game such as FFXI differ quite a bit, so I probably can't fulfil your request, I'm afraid. My apologies. Same goes for the latter: I don't think such a thing as useless things for developers to look into exist, as long as a user is asking for it.

You stroll your ways, I stroll mine, but as far as I know, you are not in the position to tell people what to post around here, or are you? :]

[vixin]

well spoken Dragory, if i redcall blade hi numbers are inconsistant. It almost always need innin to land on higher level nms not to mention low crit rate but isnt all nin ws like that in a way?

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Yes, innin constantly for lolnnagi in VW. Anything else it dose fine without it.(No, I'm not talking about aby.)

[vixin]

hehe "lolnnagi", /erhmm yeah but kanngi aftermath is nice, i been testing blade metus out in oce +1 and iga zukin+innin the "DA" if it is or isnt can procure on ws does a nice hefty dmg spike. could you test it out with kanngi and blade hi see if dmg spike is worth using over oce. head piece?

[wish12oz]

i been testing blade metus out in oce +1 and iga zukin+innin the "DA" if it is or isnt can procure on ws

How exactly are you testing this?


could you test it out with kanngi and blade hi see if dmg spike is worth using over oce. head piece?

You don't use Oce headpiece for Blade: Hi, you use Thaumas hat.

And "testing" for WS sets is beyond stupid. The math for WS's and other damage calculations is known, if you just do the math you can easily see which is better.


if i redcall blade hi numbers are inconsistant. It almost always need innin to land on higher level nms not to mention low crit rate but isnt all nin ws like that in a way?

While the numbers for Blade: Hi might vary a bit, it will still always beat Metsu and Shun for average damage unless you're incredibly horribly geared. And no, it doesn't "need" Innin, but Innin helps when you can use it.


I am actually thinking of making a Kannagi, too, and even a Kogarasumaru, but all that is still under development, and yalms beside the point.

So basically, you're a gimp with nothing and this entire discussion doesn't have any impact on you whatsoever, since you're obviously trying to make everything but have nothing done yet? k


Moreover, methinks our concepts of being good in a game such as FFXI differ quite a bit, so I probably can't fulfil your request, I'm afraid. My apologies.

Ya, my concept of being good at something is doing the best you can, your concept of being good is being gimp and not caring that you're gimp. Whats next, gonna talk about hows its your 12.95?


Same goes for the latter: I don't think such a thing as useless things for developers to look into exist, as long as a user is asking for it.

Using DEV time on something 0.00001% of the population wants is a waste of time when there's things that could be updated that a vastly superior section of the population wants.


You stroll your ways, I stroll mine, but as far as I know, you are not in the position to tell people what to post around here, or are you? :]

It's a forum, I can tell you whatever I want, if I spread misinformation you're allowed to counter with reasoning behind why it's misinformation though.

How you guys manage to spew such complete nonsense all the time just amazes me.

[Dragoy]

wish12oz,

Point being: I do not play this game to compete with other players, nor to get all the 'best items' per se.
I play this game for fun. If you call that gimp, go ahead, it's your opinion. :]

That said, I do work for getting the best gear I can, if it's within reason such as Kannagi is (on average I think I got 5 helmets per visit, within 100 minutes or so). At least the Briareus part was really fast to do with just 3 characters, but can be tedious and not that fun so that's why I never got to it before.

After doing at least two of the level 85 or 90 Kannagis, I will seriously think about going fer a Relic next, Kikoku being the main candidate I think. I just finished creating the Mandau for a friend, so it's like taking a break from that stuff for a while. :b

Anyhow, a good player to me is not someone who goes around mouth foaming, spewing their own ideals around and telling how other players should play a game, even if their ideals would be the most efficient way to do X with Y. They may be good at gathering the best gear and all, but if they're no fun, that's no good...

You can be a good guide, but your attitude will matter a lot how people will take the advice in. Rather than telling people to not do X, why not just go with explaining how you do it and why, and why it is more effective? Or why this change would not be for the good (other arguments than it being a waste of time, perhaps)?

While you are of course allowed to tell me whatever you want, so are everyone else allowed to suggest what they want. ^^;

I still think the weapon skills, as well as all the other quest ones should be far better than the level 50-60 weapon skills for example. To me, that makes sense. If it's nonsense to you, well, I guess you'll just have to live with it.


Blubb!
Cake tare~

[wish12oz]

wish12oz,

Point being: I do not play this game to compete with other players, nor to get all the 'best items' per se.
I play this game for fun. If you call that gimp, go ahead, it's your opinion. :]

I do all of that at the same time. To bad you haven't figured out how to do this yet.

Getting gear and having fun and being good at the game are all possible at the same time, I dunno when this whole mentality of "If you're good you're a jerk with no friends" ideal starting being kicked around, but it needs to stop.


I still think the weapon skills, as well as all the other quest ones should be far better than the level 50-60 weapon skills for example. To me, that makes sense. If it's nonsense to you, well, I guess you'll just have to live with it.

While this is the way it should be, it is not like that because SE fails at common sense and updating their game accordingly and making needed/useful improvements. It's better to just ignore their shortcomings on the small stuff, so the big annoyances can be fixed.

[Dragoy]

wish12oz,

Point being: I do not play this game to compete with other players, nor to get all the 'best items' per se.
I play this game for fun. If you call that gimp, go ahead, it's your opinion. :]I do all of that at the same time. To bad you haven't figured out how to do this yet.

Getting gear and having fun and being good at the game are all possible at the same time, I dunno when this whole mentality of "If you're good you're a jerk with no friends" ideal starting being kicked around, but it needs to stop.Yeah, I didn't put that out very well, and I would say it obviously depends a lot of how one would define good. Of course it is possible to be good and have fun! Perhaps a better example would be that I don't find the sources for the new 'best' items in the game fun, and choose not to do them. I guess it does make me a bad player at least in some sense.

I'm not even saying that I'm a good player; I never did!



I still think the weapon skills, as well as all the other quest ones should be far better than the level 50-60 weapon skills for example. To me, that makes sense. If it's nonsense to you, well, I guess you'll just have to live with it.While this is the way it should be, it is not like that because SE fails at common sense and updating their game accordingly and making needed/useful improvements. It's better to just ignore their shortcomings on the small stuff, so the big annoyances can be fixed.I do agree, but even so, I also think people should suggest whatever they want. I don't think it will have a negative impact over more wanted things. In fact, it's not very motivating to not see people suggest changes, I would think. Even if it's something they absolutely would not want to do, it can still give them ideas and blah blah.

In any case, if the development team does not get more love some time soon, the future does not look too good whatever they happen to read, methinks... Things like this would likely take at least a year for them to actually start working upon them anyway, and shouldn't affect higher priority issues.


By the by, I was not talking about anyone in particular up there, if that is what it seemed like. :S

[wish12oz]

I do agree, but even so, I also think people should suggest whatever they want. I don't think it will have a negative impact over more wanted things. In fact, it's not very motivating to not see people suggest changes, I would think. Even if it's something they absolutely would not want to do, it can still give them ideas and blah blah.

In any case, if the development team does not get more love some time soon, the future does not look too good whatever they happen to read, methinks... Things like this would likely take at least a year for them to actually start working upon them anyway, and shouldn't affect higher priority issues.

I use to think like that too, and now we have cheese sandwiches, moogle costumes, bad updates to merit abilities, bad updates to most relics, etc. Instead of more fun/good/rewarding content to actually play and useful updates to things like relics and merits. Just imagine how much better relics of been if SE would of actually focused on fixing all of them to make them all useful instead of trying to implement trash content and giving them blanket updates like relic WS damage +40%. And soon we'll be blessed with playing as monster, for no useful rewards whatsoever, and while I'm sure it will be fun for 3 days, it's just some trash that will end up being as vacant as the FFXI pokemon battles, chocobo racing, chocobo raising, etc after 2 weeks.

[vixin]

I use to think like that too, and now we have cheese sandwiches, moogle costumes, bad updates to merit abilities, bad updates to most relics, etc. Instead of more fun/good/rewarding content to actually play and useful updates to things like relics and merits. Just imagine how much better relics of been if SE would of actually focused on fixing all of them to make them all useful instead of trying to implement trash content and giving them blanket updates like relic WS damage +40%. And soon we'll be blessed with playing as monster, for no useful rewards whatsoever, and while I'm sure it will be fun for 3 days, it's just some trash that will end up being as vacant as the FFXI pokemon battles, chocobo racing, chocobo raising, etc after 2 weeks.

going to quit again? f so make another post about how your ending your account and post a pic so it shows your serious on another note "U Mad Bro?"

[wish12oz]

going to quit again? f so make another post about how your ending your account and post a pic so it shows your serious on another note "U Mad Bro?"

I actually find your petty attempts to insult me funny, because it's the only thing you even have to say to me. Why don't you try being part of the discussion instead of being the problem in at least 1 thread that you post in.

[Retsujo]

I actually find your petty attempts to insult me funny, because it's the only thing you even have to say to me. Why don't you try being part of the discussion instead of being the problem in at least 1 thread that you post in.

If I recall correctly, vixin is the one who started this thread, and everyone has replied with their own opinions without directly criticizing anyone. Except for you. If, when someone finally snaps back, your only rhetort is to try and minimize their worth...

...well, I don't give a damn how good of a player you are or how good the gear you have. I avoid asshats like you.

[wish12oz]

If I recall correctly, vixin is the one who started this thread, and everyone has replied with their own opinions without directly criticizing anyone. Except for you. If, when someone finally snaps back, your only rhetort is to try and minimize their worth...

...well, I don't give a damn how good of a player you are or how good the gear you have. I avoid asshats like you.

You're right, I didnt reply back with opinions. My replies were based on math. I also didn't insult anyone, I said x is better than y, it's dumb to do y. If you take that as insults, maybe you should learn what an insult actually is.

[Retsujo]

If you take that as insults, maybe you should learn what an insult actually is.

I didn't say you were insulting, I said you were an ass. There is a difference :)

I also don't disagree with your math, I just don't see why you have to shove it in people's faces and try to make them feel inferior to you in the process of explaining it. It may be the internet, but it shouldn't justify any lack of humanity.

[wish12oz]

I didn't say you were insulting, I said you were an ass. There is a difference :)

I also don't disagree with your math, I just don't see why you have to shove it in people's faces and try to make them feel inferior to you in the process of explaining it. It may be the internet, but it shouldn't justify any lack of humanity.

You're just over sensitive, were you picked on a lot as a child?

[Retsujo]

You're just over sensitive, were you picked on a lot as a child?

Well I'm a Ginger so of course I was picked on a lot. But I'm not being oversensitive :P

Just trying to explain why people are challenging you on what you've posted, since you haven't taken the clue.

[Dragoy]

I use to think like that too, and now we have cheese sandwiches, moogle costumes, bad updates to merit abilities, bad updates to most relics, etc. Instead of more fun/good/rewarding content to actually play and useful updates to things like relics and merits. Just imagine how much better relics of been if SE would of actually focused on fixing all of them to make them all useful instead of trying to implement trash content and giving them blanket updates like relic WS damage +40%. And soon we'll be blessed with playing as monster, for no useful rewards whatsoever, and while I'm sure it will be fun for 3 days, it's just some trash that will end up being as vacant as the FFXI pokemon battles, chocobo racing, chocobo raising, etc after 2 weeks.
Yeah, I do agree on that a lot, in a way. I just don't think the reason to it is that people suggested other things; more like they just didn't want to fix the real issues (and I guess they still don't, seeing they create stuff like the trials of glow for the weapons in question haha).

Oh well. Time will tell, what will become of it all, relics and the like.
Thinking it might even happen sooner than later.

[Neisan_Quetz]

ITT: We hit both fear of math and 'you don't know if you don't have X' all in one post!

[wish12oz]

I've been so busy not paying attention I didn't even notice this thread got posted in.


ITT: We hit both fear of math and 'you don't know if you don't have X' all in one post!

Shush you noob, you cant know how something works if you dont have it to use in game and test while looking at your chatlog on your PS2!

[Ophannus]

Kikoku's is better than Gungnir's at least since at least Kikoku's is active and Gungnir's is passive(requires the DRG to get hit, which is almost never and the stun never procs and the spikes do like 16 damage).

[Neisan_Quetz]

Nin is at what 42 subtle blow before Auspice/Myoshu at 99? Assuming Koga+2 hands unless I missed something, 37 SB without. Assumed Rajas was on for TP at least.

[Sayomi]

Honestly alot of AM need to be revamped for relics, some are pretty obsolete, like Gungnirs for instance was ALWAYS obsolete scythes was recently kinda poopoo because everything has haste now, way back when haste gear was like trying to spot jesus in public altho its good in a way to haul on more attack in an AM macro but w.e

[Savlyn]

"If you're good you're a jerk with no friends" ideal starting being kicked around, but it needs to stop.


The reason people think like this is because you actually ARE a jerk. Why are you so angry all the time? Misinformation, as you call it, it not enough to make someone this angry. So what is it really?

[Neisan_Quetz]

Because telling someone they're wrong means you're angry on a internet forum

[wish12oz]

The reason people think like this is because you actually ARE a jerk. Why are you so angry all the time? Misinformation, as you call it, it not enough to make someone this angry. So what is it really?

I've only been angry once when viewing and responding to these forums that I can recall. I feel no emotion most of the time when I respond to people here to correct them, I view it as just a matter of course while trying to spread correct information, so the problem is not on my end. Like when responding to this post, I'm not angry at all, I just think you're a ...not smart person. But seriously, if I'm a jerk because I speak bluntly so people don't misunderstand what I'm saying, or because I tell people the truth without trying to sugarcoat it, then thats also fine with me. I don't really care what random people on an internet forum I will never meet IRL think of me. So if you want to think of me as a red faced angry guy always screaming at everyone for no reason, go right ahead, but I'm gonna tell you that you're wrong every time you say it and I see it.

[Darwena]

I don't know why ppl ask for a better WS. They already said: "I play this game for fun and not to be better" so stop complaining about it and do the less efficient one if you happy with it. If you want more DMG on the other hand, stop crying the gimp playstyle is awfull and start doing the more efficient way to play a job.

It's like saying "hey Devs, I want blade: Retsu more effective cause that WS is the one I like to use!" Somone answer: "hmmm do Blade: Shun instead you will do more DMG" and you will answer: "shut up n..b, I play the game for fun and I want Blade: Retsu be more powerfull."

Soon ppl will ask for SAM be best archer in this game... oh wait... they already did it...

[Bulrogg]

Perhaps I have an askewed form of thought... but if the time it takes to complete a Relic surpasses the time it takes to complete/acquire other weapons of the same class, one would think the WS and AF would be far more superior.

#6dos

[Return1]

Blade: Shun now gives you a legit reason to make Kikoku as your primary NIN weapon. For VW it gives you a superior WS, more ATK, and a more steady OTD. Also better on Dynamis as well. The only times Kannagi shines is if you got RR in abyssea.

Most relic AM suck as well. At least now you don't have to gimp yourself to get an effect right?

That and Kikoku can more easily by boosted to 95+.

Also, why do people ask you to make Relics multihit instead of just having the same fTP as a multihit while being single hit? Being single hit is actually a pretty big boost to these WSes because you get a massive ACC bonus and lets you stack more ATK/STR/WSC

[Darwena]

Blade: Shun now gives you a legit reason to make Kikoku as your primary NIN weapon. For VW it gives you a superior WS, more ATK, and a more steady OTD. Also better on Dynamis as well. The only times Kannagi shines is if you got RR in abyssea.

Most relic AM suck as well. At least now you don't have to gimp yourself to get an effect right?

That and Kikoku can more easily by boosted to 95+.

Also, why do people ask you to make Relics multihit instead of just having the same fTP as a multihit while being single hit? Being single hit is actually a pretty big boost to these WSes because you get a massive ACC bonus and lets you stack more ATK/STR/WSC

Cause some ppl want more stuff for Role Playing and asking devs for useless BS instead of having real improvement...

[vixin]

maybe we can clear up this post w/o personal attacks i made it for people who "have" or wanting to make kikoku, submit what they want to see improved on the ws /aftermath. thank you

[Darwena]

I didn't make any personal attack, some ppl mean lot of player, nothing personal. If you think it's personal, maybe you take those forum too seriously. Also, I should say some ppl here who think its personal attack are the one who make those personal attack by naming player and then insult them.

Also, I feel concerned by this post since I'm working on Kikoku (slowly). I don't think the Kikoku aftermath need improvement unless ALL relic get one. Kikoku have 3x DMG proc in w/o any Aftermath, have the highest DMG + attack mods and it's one of the fastest Katana. So with all that, I don't know why we SE should modify the Aftermath. if it's the DMG that bother ppl here, Blade: Shun FTW... or a better WS setup.

[vixin]

hmmm well as i said i made this post for kikoku "blade: metus and its aftermath" you think the aftermath is fine ok thats yoru opinion but you said if it does get improved other relic ws would need to.

reminder this is for kikoku not "other relic ws" can we focus on that ws and its aftermath alone , thank you.
on another note se posted something about rehauling all ws' maybe mythic and relic s would be included in that and perhaps revised aftermaths since most of relic aftermaths are obsolite
edit: the x3 dmg will not work on ws btw " i read your post as if you inclined it did"

[Darwena]

Dmg x3 don't aply on WS? I didn't know that point. If it don't apply on WS, then Relic owner should complain about that point before Aftermath or WS itself.

[vixin]

im sure the hidden effect of x3 dmg was suppose to act like emp aftermath where it affects dot not the actual ws but non the less subtle blow on aftermath, actually scratch that im sure all relic aftermaths are way out dated, i wont list them all but they really lack in comparison to mythics and emps as for ws let se revamp relic ws since they have 0 tp mod's 100 -300 tp are the same which to me really seems like se lazy on that part did they really think aftermaths were so game breaking that the relic ws didnt need tp mods?

the world may never know Xp

[Cahlum]

12.5% chance for x3 dmg on kikoku and does not proc on ws

[Sayomi]

word idk why ppl hate when ppl "complain" on forums, isn't that what the forums were made for? idk lol

[vixin]

wonder why se kept all relic ws with 1 hit mods but animation shows usually 4+ (ranges for ws) maybe se should make the ws do the same amount of hits as the animation shows and adjust the mod so its not to powerful.

[Sayomi]

oh and fix final heaven thanks, im sure if tifa was around or real she'd unleash some sort of rage of some sort.