Blue mage healing outside of party

[Danterius]

Does anyone know if there is any plan to allow blu to use healing spells on players outside your immediate party?

It's kind of annoying that practically every other job that can use healing abilities/spells can freely cast on whoever they want, but blu cannot.

I realise that blu spells, being tp moves originally, mobs don't generally use them to heal other mobs, but so many of them are heavily modified when blu gets them (eg: exuviation) that the point is moot.

(couldn't find anything in the forums like this, apologies if it's a repetition though~)

[Prothscar]

They don't have plans, but they should. It's a pointless limitation.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Can't balance your limitations without restrictions like these.

[Scuro]

Healing outside of Party = Not BLU, thats WHM SCH or RDM (if you even call those healing classes anymore cuz we all know its WHM or go home)

BLU has never had a non Party spell, or even an alliance party, therefore, it shouldn't be capable of healing outside of party. Not to mention its not necessary and entirely pointless. This very limitation is what assures our ability to be a frontline job rather than becoming a back lined RDM. So don't curse your blessings dammit!

[Tashan]

Not to mention its not necessary and entirely pointless. This very limitation is what assures our ability to be a frontline job rather than becoming a back lined RDM. So don't curse your blessings dammit!

This is a very good point.

[Oscar71]

Sub SCH with light arts and cure potency gear and call it a day.

[Danterius]

By that logic, dnc would get classed as a healer too.

I'm thinking for the situations where you're on the front line, alliance member starts going down, mages low on mp. You could be the one to save them, like a dnc could, but nope! sorry, you're a blu, no outside healing for you!

Blue mage was designed to be massively adaptable, depending on how you wanted to play. Having this restriction is like saying "you can do anything you like with this job!.... except that!"

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Blue mage was designed to be massively adaptable, depending on how you wanted to play. Having this restriction is like saying "you can do anything you like with this job!.... except that!"

With limitations, this is one of them.

[Kitkat]

It's annoying that it works this way, but I see it as a reasonable limitation of what we can do given our options of being adaptable to the situation. If I happen to be /rdm there is still options there for healing outside members. With the recent changes tot he cure formula I'm finding it substantial to aid outside members. Granted the bonus isn't huge due to the lower skill, but it is still noticeably more potent than it was.

We still get a well rounded array of spells to support our parties if that is the role we need to fill. White wind, Plenilune, Magic fruit ro HP restoral. Winds of Prom for erase-ga, Diamondhide, and several spells that can make having diffusion beneficial in certain situations. I would hope at some point they do something similar with our merited abilities that they have for other jobs by lowering the max cooldown and cause further merits into it to augment the ability.

[Scuro]

For starts... why the f*ck would you want to be a healer with a BLU to begin with... if thats your goal, your doing it wrong, and go play a class that actually heals properly... AKA WHM.

secondly, if your mages are running out of MP and your a BLU that is having to take over and main heal for everybody.....
1. Your mages suck, learn to conserve more MP and heal efficiently
2. Your doing it wrong, because if you have that much MP in your pool to main heal a party, get off your ass and start using that MP for DD. Because your obviously letting down your party, being an MP sync for your healers, and slowing down the DD power on killing which is why you are having to be put in that role. At the very MOST you should be throwing out an emergency cure once or twice a big fight. If your doing it more, your mages are shit. Which again, is why the limitation on our healing capabilities really isn't a big deal because we don't heal as much as other classes.

[Kitkat]

I would think that any blu already knows that even with the scaling of the cure spells and buffs we have it doesn't come close to making the job a suitable main healer replacement, but it also doesn't mean they absolutely shouldn't cure/try to help if the situation calls for it. By that I mean instances where temp items aren't raining from the sky, you're not in abyssea with an endless supply of mp for whm, instance battles such as legion or "shit hits the fan" fight. I have had at least the common sense to help with curing in those situations, but as stated it was limited to only those in my PT.

The way the OP said what they did, and the consensus I'm gleaning from additional responses, is more so "What is the reason for not allowing it/limiting it" not "I want to be main healer and dammit SE won't let me cause all my shit is self cast or party cast only."

Only reason why I even mentioned /rdm is because it is used for cleaving. I would think anyone with half a brain would use /rdm for cleaving also given the traits/buffs it gives to make cleaving easier. Didn't bring it up cause I fill in as a healer or have some delusion that I am a healer with it.

[Scuro]

BLU has never had a non Party spell, or even an alliance party, therefore, it shouldn't be capable of healing outside of party. Not to mention its not necessary and entirely pointless. This very limitation is what assures our ability to be a frontline job rather than becoming a back lined RDM. So don't curse your blessings dammit!

As I stated before, this is why we don't main cure or have the ability, and this is why our cures remain party focused only. SE knows better from its failure at making RDM a true frontline DD that if you give a class adequate support abilities, it will become, back lined. The point of our restrictions is to force us to be a front line. People call this a limitation, but I call it a blessing, I would never want to be brought into an LS or a party for that matter to be a back lined healing BLU... And I imagine you all would feel the same, and if you don't. As I said before.... your playing it wrong, and your playing the wrong class.


2. At the very MOST you should be throwing out an emergency cure once or twice a big fight. If your doing it more, your mages are shit. Which again, is why the limitation on our healing capabilities really isn't a big deal because we don't heal as much as other classes.

I agreed with you already Kitkat, I'm not saying a BLU should never cure, I'm saying if your curing outside of emergency means, your party sucks and you should leave it. And if your LS depends on you to cure, your LS sucks, and I suggest you leave it. Pretty much, anytime a BLU has to cure more than once or twice (again emergency means), your group is horrible, and doing it wrong, and most likely your healer doesn't know what they are doing, or isn't using STAL command to flip between characters and is loosing target because of macros (which before anyone says it, mages it is your fault if your loosing target, don't blame your party for doing their job just because your too much of a lazy ba*stard to type up a macro and hit ctrl or alt # to use it...).

[Danterius]

The point of our restrictions is to force us to be a front line. People call this a limitation, but I call it a blessing, I would never want to be brought into an LS or a party for that matter to be a back lined healing BLU... And I imagine you all would feel the same, and if you don't. As I said before.... your playing it wrong, and your playing the wrong class.

Sorry Scuro, but to me, you've entirely missed the point of blu. It's not meant to be a "dd only!" job. It's designed to be as adaptable as possible, depending on how you want to play. Take a look at the whole spell list, there's plenty that allow for varying types of blu (eg: healer, tank, dd, nuker).

Granted you mostly see dd blu's, I myself am geared toward front-line dd capabilities, but the idea is that if you don't want to be a dd blu, there's other options. Have a look around and you'll find some blu's quite capably tanking and/or nuking. It's not like a rdm, that was designed as a mid range dd/support/healer, it's designed to excel in whatever focus/discipline you choose.

My point out of all of this is; no, you don't have to be a healer if you had the ability to be, and yes you should be annoyed if the ls/party tries to pigeon-hole a blu, but taking away our option to choose is not the right way to do it. I'm not saying your way is wrong, it's one of the MANY options blu should have. There is no SINGLE way that blu should be played.

[Fyreus]

While i hate to admit it.. Scuro is right. Having played rdm from the early NA days up until 60 around our first summer i found it to suck because of the change in play style demanded by the players AND SE (due to mob tp). While i'd love to heal outside my party, i feel as though all those blu i've seen standing in back doing random stuff during their first few months in game confirmed a fear i had when i decided to change jobs.

The other alternative is to waltz non pt members. We get quite a bit of waltz help and that should be enough unless you are able to pull + maintain hate and save their bacon. Now that i think about it... i hate that i can't buff my alliance :/ we're so greedy with spells!

[Kitkat]

Thing is, whether or not SE changed it, fact remains that blu still won't fill the role. Unlike Whm, our cures generate a ton of enmity in comparison and there are other limiting factors in play also. Some spells are AOE of the caster, forces the blu to be up in the thick of it anyway.

Just seems you have this stigma that the change will force blu into a spot it doesn't fit.That is the main reason I responded to you Scuro. You're taking an inch and stretching it a mile in the 'consequences of change' department. Even with /whm, /sch, /rdm sub blu can't really hold a candle to either of the actual mages tasked with healing and support healing. The build of the spells don't really allow for it and better suit the blu up in the front line anyway.

To touch on the rdm comment, I played since NA release and started as rdm. There wasn't really a major shift in how rdm was utilized until TP burns were found to be the easiest way to gain merits. It eliminated slow killing style of the old SC setup+mb and only became really used pre-70 after ToaU was released. This was mainly due to mobs being made squishier while more resistant to SC damage anyway. Either that or post 60 the mob of choice reflected the spell making the use of SC+MB even more outclassed by simple TP burn setups. Due to the fact whm required some sort of refresher to maintain useful compared to a rdm+brd or cor, they were simply not needed. Mobs died fast, barely any damage was needed to be healed in large amounts so rdm became ideal for healing.

With how SE is keeping the high damage attacks going, I honestly don't see rdm ever filling that gap again, let alone a blu.

[Scuro]

Sorry Scuro, but to me, you've entirely missed the point of blu. It's not meant to be a "dd only!" job. It's designed to be as adaptable as possible, depending on how you want to play. Take a look at the whole spell list, there's plenty that allow for varying types of blu (eg: healer, tank, dd, nuker).

... It's not like a rdm, that was designed as a mid range dd/support/healer, it's designed to excel in whatever focus/discipline you choose.


See this is how i felt about BLU when I was starting and I had hit 75 and before Abyssea, but with the dawn of new things, I became an elitist and I would still be today if I still played the game which I have stopped playing for now until vanafest. I've yet to break 99 not because I can't, but because I see no reason to other than to do VNMS for eternity until I quit the game entirely. Yet I digress, I believed this job was capable of so much and that it could be played in any way as long as the player willed it. But the realistic thing is, jobs do things better, because they do it better they are the better selection, and because they are the better selection, means your options are limited. Unless your solo'n (in which case you can do w/e) or your in a static that focuses on the "having fun" part of the game rather than focusing on achieving great things, you are natively limited to the simple roles of DD whether that be physical or magical nuker. The bottom line is, its what we do well, not great, but we can be competitive. In all other fields, buffing, debuffing, healing, tanking, we are mediocre options (varying based on mob) I know Tashan will jump in and say BLU's can tank like a boss, because thats what he's put his mind to. But thats tash for ya lol and even than he knows better than to tank the world on his BLU.

Simply put, it isn't so much our actual effectiveness we have to worry about that makes us in the positions we can assume, it is the community. We are not a healer because the community through means of logic has deemed us unfit. Even if we were able to cure, we wouldn't compete therefore we wouldn't do it. Sure it would become an option,but a terrible one at that, to a point where you might as well have the BRD/WHM cure. You've stated I should look at the spell list, too which I fully understand the versatility and was a quality I truly admired of the job. You will also notice that not a single spell transcends the party boundary nor should it. Do we really wanna go to parties like DNCs who were so tremendously useless and have to pop off curing waltzes using TP gain atmas and gear because not many LS's let DNCs actually TP on a mob? Hell no! Thats not at all what I want this job to be, or a RDM whoring out cures (which even now it doesn't do that when SCH can do it better, and WHM pretty much dominates the two). While I understand your desire for this because I mean what BLU wouldn't love SE saying "Hey you can heal out of parties now!" or "Hey that whole timer for your spells when you swap them, f*ck that!" or "Hey you know how you can only use so many spells? PFFFTTT!! GET OUTA HERE!" I mean what BLU in their right mind wouldn't be like "FFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUU YAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!" Yet that would also break game balance and mechanic, because we are so good at many things, why do we deserve the god mode button to be great at many things? Than what would be the point of other jobs that are so closely related to the tasks we desire to operate under?

Hell why don't we make every job in the game lead to BLU so this way if you want to be a tank, healer, DD, nuker, as long as you have the jobs leveled, when you play BLU you can play just like those respective jobs!? I'm not saying no to what you are asking for because I truly hate the idea, I'm saying no because I respect the other job classes out there that would have to compete with us and become void after us becoming a god. I'm saying no because it breaks game balance (what little game balance is left for elitists to even respect after Abyssea...).




Just seems you have this stigma that the change will force blu into a spot it doesn't fit.That is the main reason I responded to you Scuro. You're taking an inch and stretching it a mile in the 'consequences of change' department. Even with /whm, /sch, /rdm sub blu can't really hold a candle to either of the actual mages tasked with healing and support healing. The build of the spells don't really allow for it and better suit the blu up in the front line anyway.


I do not have a stigma for change, I full well support it, I just support it within the reason that benefits BLU, it its something neat for a niche group of vanadiel, its not worth the time supporting vs something that will support the greater good to which I have lended a hand to in discussion for improvement. This suggestion of curing outside party members ranks up there with no cool down timers after switching spells, and a JA that allows us to use all of our spells. These notions are either game breaking, defeat the notion of what BLU is, support a niche group, or are misguided in basic understandings of fundamental BLU mechanics.

The reason why subs of a BLU don't' make us back line is because BLU already can't compete with other healing jobs in healing, therefore, subbing healing jobs that get up to at most Cure IV (which ask any SCH P.S I'm a SCH, and RDM whether that means anything and they will tell you hell no and when do they get Cure V so they can actually start competing with WHM for healing positions). And as you stated we generate more enmity, so of course sub or not, we are not a healing class, we can save someone's ass, but thats it. If BLU were ever efficient enough to compete with WHM, this game would be broken and SCH and RDM would be pissed, if BLU were ever efficient enough to compete with SCH and RDM, SCH and RDM would be pissed because they are already on the shitlist for curing in groups, to only be one upped by a job that can do exactly what they do and do more, would shut out those jobs entirely (and trust me, we don't' want to give RDM's more ammo to bitch about because I still can't read a RDM thread with out hearing how DD RDM is coming! and how awesome those days will be for vanadiel!!!..... Ya... No). The fact of the matter is, we can cure just fine actually even better than fine, we cure good. We cure so good we are great for backing up when the shit hits the fan, which is great! Why should our responsibilities grow further in curing allies when we should already have more efficient jobs for that? Is being an emergency cure not good enough? And sorry but even though I'm in an ally group, if someone dies in the other party and I'm not on my SCH healing, I could give a shit less because A. Thats their fault, B. Thats their healer's fault, because if it was my job to cure em, I should of been in their party.

[Fyreus]

I remember when i used to go blu/dnc with tp/mp/?? atmas and drop a waltz+m.fruit combo on players for 860+ healed and thought it was kinda broken especially in a small pt but i can't complain since they've bumped our healing potential to the 1k range.

[Kitkat]

~sighs~ To show the 'inch to a mile' of your argument I bring up the following:

Healing outside of Party = Not BLU, thats WHM SCH or RDM (if you even call those healing classes anymore cuz we all know its WHM or go home)

BLU has never had a non Party spell, or even an alliance party, therefore, it shouldn't be capable of healing outside of party. Not to mention its not necessary and entirely pointless. This very limitation is what assures our ability to be a frontline job rather than becoming a back lined RDM. So don't curse your blessings dammit!


For starts... why the f*ck would you want to be a healer with a BLU to begin with... if thats your goal, your doing it wrong, and go play a class that actually heals properly... AKA WHM.

This shows you have a stigma against this change in particular, never said all changes. You keep bringing up "other mage this" and "other mages that" when it doesn't really have anything to do with them. As said prior, it isn't the goal of the OP to make blu a healer class, just to understand the limitation given the adaptive nature of the job. Other mages have the same issue blu does with healing given the spells they are limited to, and depending on fight whm is more than just cures (status heal, procs, buffs). For the record, any other job able to heal, even in limited amounts, can say:

That's their healer's fault, because if it was my job to cure em, I should of been in their party. even the blu who don't think it is their job to help heal at all, ever, because they are "onry DD."

Touching on the game balance aspect, you're once again taking an inch and going a mile. Bringing points that are obviously unbalanced does not support your cause, just sort of makes you look like you're a raving lunatic or doomsday sayer. Changing 1 or 2 spells that can target other players isn't going to somehow make blu a demigod of healing. It'll only give them the ability to save joe blow, if not doing something else, by tossing a fruit or moon-beam their way. It is akin to any other mage dropping a life line to someone outside their pt just to help the overall group. Just a helping hand, nothing more. Similar to how blu is for their party at the moment, a helping hand to keep joe blow vertical for a bit longer.

I may not be a Sch, but I am a rdm and I have been a whm in the past. I never felt my rdm was better at healing than my whm, but it had better sustainability than whm. Now whm has what rdm did to be sustainable by subbing /rdm and a great deal more refresh items. If by chance SE didn't allow the use of convert or refresh when subbed than it would still be in a position where it had to rely on others outside of abyssea to maintain longevity. Sch had that going for them from the start with sublimation, granted it is more of a mini convert, but it still instantaneously restored some mp in exchange for HP drain charge up.

To clarify, this is the inch of the OP: Let us use Fruit and Embrace on others outside of pt.

This is the mile you're arguing: Change our spells to a point that we can put those rdm and sch out of business by showing them what a real back up healer is. Hell, might even give whm a run for its money.

[Scuro]

I don't see how your arguing against my point at all, because I dont think you get at all what I'm saying. So I'm tapping out until different feedback comes out, or just the topic dies as it most likely will. Not that SE even considers this shit anyway for BLU adjustments so meh.

[Duelle]

This shows you have a stigma against this change in particular, never said all changes. You keep bringing up "other mage this" and "other mages that" when it doesn't really have anything to do with them. As said prior, it isn't the goal of the OP to make blu a healer class, just to understand the limitation given the adaptive nature of the job.Considering this is the guy that was goading people in the RDM melee and Temper threads over how we should be supporting and healing (him) instead of arguing for melee buffs, of course the guy has a stigma against healing. He's probably afraid of getting a spot right next to me when the group needs healers. You know, the dreaded "Hey, Scuro, we're short on healers, so sub WHM and bring your healing potency gear and light staff if you still want to come on BLU". I agree though that with damage being the way it is, it is unlikely to happen between enmity and amount of damage cured. Still a nice thought, though.

Touching on the game balance aspect, you're once again taking an inch and going a mile. Bringing points that are obviously unbalanced does not support your cause, just sort of makes you look like you're a raving lunatic or doomsday sayer. Changing 1 or 2 spells that can target other players isn't going to somehow make blu a demigod of healing.In his defense, it makes healing convenient. When healing becomes convenient, it has a tendency of becoming the norm, specially when healing is in short supply (as is the case in this game due to having one real healer archetype job). FFXI is victim to trends, so while I wouldn't call it gloom and doom, slight concern is warranted, IMO. Though personally, I've yet to meet a BLU that doesn't set fruit/embrace/winds or does not use them if they do. I've been hit with fruits while on DRK so much that I'd probably be surprised to see a BLU that doesn't use it.

[Kitkat]

Still not seeing it unless SE ends up making sch and rdm totally pointless since the cure formula changes make their cures surpass blu. You'd have to be a pretty badly geared sch or rdm/sch to be out cured by a blu, or SE would have to make the cure formula changes also affect blu spells. As of right now I have not seen any changes beyond what the skill gave prior to update aside from how it affects Cure 1-4.

Is it possible? Yes, but not particularly probable that the norm will shift to where blu will be expected in the backline just because 2 spells end up going beyond party only. That is like saying a blu can nuke, so they should rather than melee/physical DD. A rdm or sch just brings more for the backline position and those would have to be in short/no supply for a blu to be considered a fill in at the current cure caps of their spells not to mention limited additional utility a mage sub grants them for the position. Given that, the way Scuro presents his argument comes across as frantic raving. Had something like this occurred with no change to the cure formula then I could believe it possible, but now...no.

[Scuro]

lol or the fact that you just skew my words but eh w/e.

[Duelle]

Still not seeing it unless SE ends up making sch and rdm totally pointless since the cure formula changes make their cures surpass blu. You'd have to be a pretty badly geared sch or rdm/sch to be out cured by a blu, or SE would have to make the cure formula changes also affect blu spells. As of right now I have not seen any changes beyond what the skill gave prior to update aside from how it affects Cure 1-4.I'll just remind you that this is the game where SMN was overshadowed by its subjob for close to three years. So yes, stranger things have happened.

That is like saying a blu can nuke, so they should rather than melee/physical DD.Except that nuking doesn't have the same value viable healing does. That aside, it is possible for a BLU to set themselves up as a healer between their spells and whatever they gain from /WHM or /SCH. If it were otherwise, we wouldn't have had so many RDMs frothing at the mouth over BLU being a potentially better healer 6 months ago due to a greater selection of spells, which would then translate to greater amounts of HP healed (note: I wasn't one of them).

Indeed, the cure changes have skewed things, but more in the positives than the negatives. Which means RDM and SCH were not the only ones who gained buffs in healing. The only real potential issue would be enmity. Well, unless cures when subbed have eaten a nerf in some way, which I haven't seen or noticed.

[Kitkat]

No, I didn't skew your words. You honestly come across as a person who took one minor detail and blew it out of proportion given the current mechanics of the game and curing power of better equipped jobs for back up healing roles.

First you automatically assume OP wants blu to be a main healer. His post was actually very blunt and to the point, no way to misinterpret "Is there ever going to be the allowance of curing outside of PT." I didn't see anything about them saying it in a way that it meant he wanted to fill a healers role, it was a genuine inquiry as to why only pt members can be cured, but not cross alliance members. Several posters voiced reasonable responses, even I offered that if that was their intentions then they would have to rely on sub due to the build of the job. You on the other hand misconstrued this and brought the absolute negative of the change to the table. Then you reiterated it again with a very perceivable agitation to the simple notion of the idea.

You then go into great detail to bring up cause and effect of unlikely situations that could arise only if various changes occurred within a timeline. IE: Points about reset time negation, access to all spells via abolishing limitations, etc. What does that have to do with an inquiry about why 2 targeting cure spells are limited to PT only? Not balance surely, otherwise you would have already looked over the fact that the two spells aren't nearly as potent as cures after the formula change of which our spells don't benefit from at all. You can't compare that to Rdm, they aren't built like blu. They have different skills and skill caps, vastly different enhancing spells in their arsenal, and very different JA. Same goes for Sch or whm. Even maxed out on diffusion it is a 10min reuse making the use of single cast buff spells pointless as they only last between 30 seconds to 5min max and are generally self cast only. Via sub you get low-grade pointless buffs that are half capacity of a primary job other than a couple buffs and status heals. This barely compares to a primary job that has full capacity of the spells they have. Why settle for refresh if you can have refresh II, why settle for ~50 resist bar spells when you can have 120, why settle for raise when you can have R2/3, why settle for p/s III/II when you can have V, why settle for heals capped at 600~700 when you can have 700~900+? If you got a whm/sch there is Boost spells too..why settle for base stats when you could get a +20 boost from them?

Seriously, did you not consider all sch, rdm, and whm bring to the table other than just curing before you went off the deep end and tossed out your worst case scenario propaganda? This isn't ToAU era, what blu can feasibly do healing wise isn't going to cut it in any endgame activity at this point and time.

Duelle, you are bringing up a point that was valid 3 years ago before a level cap raise where outside of certain circumstances and pt builds Smn was thought to be useless to a party due to its build. Same can be said for the fact that blm was cast off into the shadows after ToAU was released, but this was more so because the way the developers built the content made their utility in xp pt's dangerous to the PT, or less useful because SC+MB was too slow. There is cause and effect for each change to the game and players will adapt and adopt the easiest solution, yes. However, allowing 2 spells to go beyond PT use will not make a significant impact on the blu in the use of a healer role when Rdm or Sch get a greater benifit from the Cure lines due to having higher skill caps. Can a blu sub /sch to increase that skill cap? Yes the can, but they also don't get access to cure IV since sch doesn't learn it until 55 and as stated numerous times the new formula does not affect the blu's cure spells at all (To clarify I mean fruit/plenilune not Cure 1-4 as healing skill does still increase the base of these, but it is still less potent than primary jobs casting the same spell). They are still the same as they were prior to the formula change making them pale in comparison to a well geared rdm or sch casting Cure IV/III as needed.

[Duelle]

Duelle, you are bringing up a point that was valid 3 years ago before a level cap raise where outside of certain circumstances and pt builds Smn was thought to be useless to a party due to its build. Same can be said for the fact that blm was cast off into the shadows after ToAU was released, but this was more so because the way the developers built the content made their utility in xp pt's dangerous to the PT, or less useful because SC+MB was too slow. There is cause and effect for each change to the game and players will adapt and adopt the easiest solution, yes.All I was saying was that it's not as outlandish or impossible as you may think. Again, stranger things have happened.

Yes the can, but they also don't get access to cure IV since sch doesn't learn it until 55 and as stated numerous times the new formula does not affect the blu's cure spells at all (To clarify I mean fruit/plenilune not Cure 1-4 as healing skill does still increase the base of these, but it is still less potent than primary jobs casting the same spell).Ah, I see. I apologize for missing that part. I was still under the impression Healing skill boosted BLU magic the way it did before. Well, you're safe from that axe, then. =P

[Economizer]

Currently not jumping into the main point of this thread, but I'd like to point out a deliberate untruth, if not by the poster, then by whomever told that poor person this lie until they believed it:


If by chance SE didn't allow the use of convert or refresh when subbed than it would still be in a position where it had to rely on others outside of abyssea to maintain longevity.

Blatantly and demonstrably wrong. Good White Mages sub Scholar. If Red Mage had all its job traits, abilities, and spells moved to level 50 tomorrow there would be plenty of other jobs, primarily Scholar, that would be hurt about it, but White Mage would not be one of them. In fact, White Mage's power relative to other job options would increase as a result. Subbing Scholar grants more benefits including either equivalent or greater MP efficiency, there are far more sources of refresh at level 99 then there was at 75, and far more sources of gear that make White Mage more MP efficient then there was in 2006.

[Tashan]

Lol I miss you too Scuro :D

I wasn't going to join the debate because I think it's wasted energy. I hate the Blue Mage community right now. Not the online communities, they're sound and solid as always. But the Odin server community.

I think Blue Mage is in the worst possible state it's ever been. A condition worse than redudancy.

Fuck it.

[saevel]

BLU was a superior healer until just recently, now their tied depending on what you need. A BLU/WHM (or /SCH if Haste is not needed) has M.Fruit / P.Embrace along with a 12~15s Erasega And W.Wind from their main coupled with either Cure IV (/WHM) or Full Powered Cure III (/SCH). This gives a BLU 2~3 cure spells they can cast back to back with two of them being high potency. A RDM or SCH will only have Cure IV and Cure III, one high potency and one medium potency spell.

BLU's can still heal faster. The only thing the cure update did was bring RDM up to par with BLU and bring SCH closer to WHM.

And before the gnashing of teeth and crying of bloodly tears begins, I've main healed parties on BLU back when we level in ToAU. Since level cap I've main healed small groups of me and my friends. I actually have a cure potency set for BLU, it's not that hard to build and use's almost the same gear as RDM does. It's only limitation is not casting outside of party, and I believe this is due to BLU's spells being considered TP moves. I would love for BLU's to be able to cast outside of party, maybe then we'd see a few who actually remember M.fruit exists.

[saevel]

In his defense, it makes healing convenient. When healing becomes convenient, it has a tendency of becoming the norm, specially when healing is in short supply (as is the case in this game due to having one real healer archetype job). FFXI is victim to trends, so while I wouldn't call it gloom and doom, slight concern is warranted, IMO. Though personally, I've yet to meet a BLU that doesn't set fruit/embrace/winds or does not use them if they do. I've been hit with fruits while on DRK so much that I'd probably be surprised to see a BLU that doesn't use it.

It's not just FFXI. ALL MMO's have issues with healers. In DDO (my side MMO that I cheat on FFXI with) you won't always get a Favored Soul or Cleric for your 6-man quest (all XP is quest / dungeon based). Even though Bard, Paladin and Ranger get healing spells, their no where near strong enough to main heal a run. What Turbine did was have vender provided hirelings that you can use and control. So for many quests I've poped out a Favored Soul and had them running behind us spamming Heal / Mass Cure Serious / Greater Restoration. Its not perfect but it'll get you through the run. Many WoW raids run into this issue, blizzard had to design their LFR (Looking for Raid) tool around this. Healers and Tanks get instantly invited while DPS's typically have to wait 10~15min to get picked up.

As games mature people become more and more focused on their e-peens and bragging rights goes to the people pushing big numbers. This spotlight on DPS's combined with their more interactive nature make them the favored play experience vs standing in the back watching.

[Kitkat]

Currently not jumping into the main point of this thread, but I'd like to point out a deliberate untruth, if not by the poster, then by whomever told that poor person this lie until they believed it:



Blatantly and demonstrably wrong. Good White Mages sub Scholar. If Red Mage had all its job traits, abilities, and spells moved to level 50 tomorrow there would be plenty of other jobs, primarily Scholar, that would be hurt about it, but White Mage would not be one of them. In fact, White Mage's power relative to other job options would increase as a result. Subbing Scholar grants more benefits including either equivalent or greater MP efficiency, there are far more sources of refresh at level 99 then there was at 75, and far more sources of gear that make White Mage more MP efficient then there was in 2006.

You also missed the point where I mentioned the use of refresh gear options and /sch for whm. Prior to 75 cap whm was limited in refresh items and /sch was not enough to maintain it's longevity compared to a rdm. You even state yourself this by pointing out 75 cap and 99 cap changes in mp efficiency. After the first cap raise was when whm really began to shine again in the primary healer role since they gained access to items to restore mp, atma to restore mp, and gained access to further JA. After 80 cap and the addition of more refresh items, items that returned mp based on HP cured, etc a whm could safely use /sch again and still maintain longevity. So Kudos to pulling out one comment to misrepresent the point I was making.

Duelle, you aren't wrong that healing skill has -some- effect on blu spells, but as I also said later in the same post you quoted it did not change how it affects the healing spells since the formula change. Plenilune/fruit still cure for the same amount they did with /rdm or /sch now as they did prior to the formula change.

I know that stranger things have happened (IE: brd tanking wyrms, cors expected to be /whm, armies of BLM destroying DL prior to cumulative magic defense increment) I've been around sine NA release and seen the changes and adaptions the game has gone through. I'm talking about the here and now though, where the center of focus on spells that Saveal brings up is based on the caster (the blu) meaning they have to be up close to those who need the cure/erase (IE front lines) rather than safely hidden in the backlines. Additionally, while you have a point Saveal, I did not state it was impossible for a blu to main heal in certain respects. I was arguing the fact that a blu healer pales in comparison to sch and rdm healer since the cure formula change making it rather asinine for a group to expect a blu to fill the position over an available rdm or sch, specifically for content that most do now (uncharted nyzul, VW, legion). This I've also stated in prior post. I would think any blu would know that setting certain spells will help the group as a whole and use them even in a frontline position. To clarify, I'm arguing the efficiency of blu healing compared to sch or rdm, not that they can't do it at all, and the allowance of cross alliance curing of 2 spells would not significantly impact that.

Lastly, my argument has nothing to do with epeenery since I'm comparing the use of a blu healer in instances you would invite a rdm and sch for due to procs as well as healing capabilities. Spell for spell, the sch or rdm will heal better than the blu with the blu only able to outclass either with 2 that are AOE around the blu (erasga/cureIV~Vaga depending on HP/Potency total). Anyone taking in stride the option of low-man Abyssea, Abyssea xp, or low damage to pt misses the point that blu could already heal those situations well enough with appropriate sub and people turned a blind eye to it, so I'm not particularly certain where this "blu will be pushed to the back-line if this happens!" stigma is coming from to be honest.

EDIT: And christ almighty, why the hell is my avatar an old man O.o

[Scuro]

This is what I have to say about this argument, go to my next post....

[Draylo]

Lol I miss you too Scuro :D

I wasn't going to join the debate because I think it's wasted energy. I hate the Blue Mage community right now. Not the online communities, they're sound and solid as always. But the Odin server community.

I think Blue Mage is in the worst possible state it's ever been. A condition worse than redudancy.

Fuck it.

Hm really? I disagree with that.

[Scuro]

DUDE I'M A F*CKING CARDIAN!!!!

And on the matter of BLU receiving outside party healing capabilities!..
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c306/MERCHaven/Scuro_Cardian_B.jpg

[renasci]

I would love to be able to heal alliance members. I don't know why we can't already; especially when they made the change to dnc to allow them to. BLU should have been changed at the same time.

[Tashan]

DUDE I'M A F*CKING CARDIAN!!!!

And on the matter of BLU receiving outside party healing capabilities!..
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c306/MERCHaven/Scuro_Cardian_B.jpg

LOL xD Nice.

[Kitkat]

Yeah well ~waves cane~ get off my lawn!

[Danterius]

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn162/eternal_degen/cidface.gif

OT: I'd be happy even if it was just magic fruit as the only healing spell that reached outside of party. As well as alliance emergencies, I hate seeing someone I know dying whilst soloing, and I happen to be running by, and not being able to throw them a quick heal.

[Fyreus]

Oh man i hate this ^

[Scuro]

LOL xD Nice.

lol what one can do in 10 minutes as a former GD major with Adobe Illustrator haha