Voidwatch Final Chapter [Archive] - Page 2

Khiinroye

05-19-2012, 01:34 AM

Raksha

05-19-2012, 01:49 AM

Rhetorical.

Yes, I know. Maybe I should've put a smiley face or something after my reply.

i was responding to your impossible to answer statement with my own impossible to answer question.

Demon6324236

05-19-2012, 02:33 AM

Sellable tickets do not exclude giving them to friends at no cost or doing VW to help others. It allows tickets to be sold or given away even if the person gathering tickets gets the item before collecting 3 tickets. It provides an incentive for people to use voidstones even if they have the body already, and may get more participation in the event because the tickets are sellable.

Exclusive tickets do notprevent selling the tickets to other people in the group, and do not ensure that the desired person will receive the ticket (barring the "drop party" workaround). It prevents tickets being used if the person gathering tickets gets the item again.

Example:
Hey, this guy is shouting for Celaeno. I have the body already, so I'll use AN to buy some 25-30k voiddusts to get a chance at 10k mirrors and 2-5k in miscellaneous drops. If I get a ticket, I'll just give it away to a complete stranger out of the goodness of my heart. Oh wait, I could just put the dust on the AH and make 30k right away. No. The person shouting will have to put a price that they will PAY FOR THE TICKETS in order to get people to join.

Sadly now that you say it, that does seem extremely likely to happen, people making price reqs to tickets upon shout... In any case this system is all kinds of messed up, if nothing else you can have people shouting they will buy tickets now, or people shouting to sell the tickets if they drop when doing large numbers with your ls, it will not stop selling anymore than current R/EX items.

My disappointment in myself for thinking this would help to fix my problems with VW, I was such a fool...

Asymptotic

05-19-2012, 03:05 AM

Funnily enough, I know one person who has gotten 2 before he got Fajin Boots. But he's probably the only one across all servers who has. But on a serious note, no one is ever going to get a Ephemeron/Couruscanti/Murasamemaru using the ticket system because the drop rates are stupidly low.

I got 2 Coruscanti on Bismarck, and Dew has 2 Coruscanti.
There's 3 @ Insaniac.

:F

Raksha

05-19-2012, 05:54 AM

I havent done much qilin, but I've seen 2 different people get coruscantis so either you got bad luck or my groups got good luck.

Neisan_Quetz

05-19-2012, 06:43 AM

EDIT: correct answer is both at the same time.

Demon6324236

05-19-2012, 07:32 AM

The main point is its not likely for someone to be doing a NM they already have the rarest drop from, and get the rare drop a 2nd time, let alone you being in a party not once, not twice, but 3 times when this happens, and being the lucky person who is getting the ticket, the chances of all this happening before your just lucky enough to get it as a drop is unreal, and not to mention that it also is the waste factor, get 2 then get the item, and your tickets, are now trash because they are R/EX with nothing to do, unless we could use tickets for 1 item to get another, which obviously isn't the case, but that is the only way it would work out without wasting them.

Kysaiana

05-19-2012, 09:34 AM

I'm amazed, though I shouldn't be, that they somehow took an already worthless and far too late ticket system and somehow made it worse. I don't get why they're making us jump through hoops to give away a duplicate item rather than let it hit the ground. If you can pool the tickets why the crap can you not just pool the item? I realize they have to make time sinks since this is an MMO and it is impossible to constantly release content, but with drop rates this bad, people tend to give up before they get the drop their after. If people stop doing the content because they give up, how is it different from stopping because they got what they wanted?

Demon6324236

05-19-2012, 09:51 AM

Because if they dont get it they might come back later, where as if they actualy get their item they have no reason to fight it again. Oh wait, thats the entire problem with the ticket system!

Shiyo

05-20-2012, 03:10 AM

Diablo3 is out , no one still plays FFXI anymore. Good job SE, continue to troll your entire playerbase into quitting.

Savlyn

05-20-2012, 03:17 AM

Diablo3 is out , no one still plays FFXI anymore. Good job SE, continue to troll your entire playerbase into quitting.

This lol And many, many more amazing games coming out before the end of the year.

1 year FFXI subscription = $156 with ONE character

Or

3 new video games :D

Demon6324236

05-20-2012, 04:01 AM

Sadly true it seems ;; I see shouts taking much longer to fill up, looks like SE is gonna kill us with these fail changes to flawed things. One can still hope though, just want FFXI to last till FFXIV has RDM in it and its been fixed up, then Ill be happy I guess.

Also something came to mind with these changes about levels and such with buying something to make the NMs weaker...
1:What happens to pets?
2:What happens to drops? Are they effected?
3:Why do we spend gil on this? Everything else related to VW has always been Cruor/CP/IS/AN related, but now gil?
4:Just how weak can I make them? Are you telling me if I have the funds to do it I can go solo Kalasutrax a few times by spending a few mil so that I finally get my Rubeus Spats? If so do you understand that this will create more spamming of NMs which you give as your reason why you cannot sell tickets?
5:Do you understand that by doing this if you make NMs such as the Pixie in Jugner to easy via this system people will flood the market with items such as Jingang GS and Tefnut via spamming them with low member counts and high enfeebling item counts(depending on price of said items)?
6:What do you base your pricing of these items on? Whats an extreme amount? 360k for legion seems like alot, so will we be seeing 200k each? Seems a bit high when your asking people who casually play to get 200k for an item to weaken the NM for a single fight, unless...
7:Do these last more than 1 fight?

Insaniac

05-20-2012, 11:32 AM

I got 2 Coruscanti on Bismarck, and Dew has 2 Coruscanti.
There's 3 @ Insaniac.

:F

Welp that's one ticketed Coruscanti that could have been made across all servers. Like I said it was rhetorical. I've done 200+ Qilins and seen 1 Coruscanti drop and never seen anyone say, "OH SNAP!! A 2ND CORUSCANTI!!" I would also need to see proof of these 2nd Coruscantis to believe it. I know how people like to troll in VW alliances after they get something. Anyway, my point is the likely hood of anyone ever finishing a coruscanti from tickets is pretty freaking small and I wouldn't be surprised if it never happens, ever.

Demon6324236

05-20-2012, 01:25 PM

I'm sure it was a rhetorical response too, everyone knows this will not happen, only SE is foolish enough to think so it seems, that or they wanted to do it to give us some small ass glimmer of hope for VW before striping it away from us and laughing at us for thinking it would help.

Insaniac

05-20-2012, 02:33 PM

The whole back and forth rhetoric started with Raksha saying Coru wouldn't be too bad. I was just trying to say that it would indeed be terrible. So terrible that no one is likely to ever get a Coruscanti via tickets. SE made tickets for the items least likely to ever be completed via ticket and I'm sure they did that on purpose so barance could be maintained. It's just an empty gesture and a waste of dev time at this point.

Raksha

05-20-2012, 02:43 PM

Yeah it was all my bad, I should have picked a better example than Coruscanti.

My point was that you may get tickets generated because of HMP farming.

Demon6324236

05-20-2012, 02:46 PM

Yep~ basically, just a way for them to say "See, we made it easier to get this gear." when in fact its really saying "See, were wasting time on screwing you with this poor system, instead of actually doing something you want, like new content, job refinements so we don't need weakness systems to make you bring jobs, or actually improving Voidwatcher."

Never know, they might actually look at this seeing no one at all has said anything positive about it, and fix it, wont actually happen, because SE is SE, but could always hope, as I'm told a few threads over, apparently RDM WSs are being revised, something I thought would never happen... Supposed there is always hope for anything, even if it is, slim...

Cybernetic_Empire

05-21-2012, 12:55 AM

Can we get some devs that understand basic game design, customer service, sociology, and psychology please? The proposed ticket system does nothing to help alleviate VW's biggest flaw. Waste. Waste of time, waste of gil, waste of loot, waste of dev time, etc. Only a pack of lunatics could say that they think Abyssea wasn't successful and then turn around and pat themselves on the back for Voidwatch. You've had paying customers screaming at you for a year now to do one thing regarding VW. Keep it simple stupid! Instead, the development team commissions a bigger hammer to try and force the square peg into the round hole.

But by all means, just continue to ignore the ideas about VW loot handling, that span multiple threads, that are far superior to anything you've decided to implement. My brain literally hurts right now trying to see how anyone can think that generating tickets and then making then NOT TRADE-ABLE will benefit anyone.

saevel

05-21-2012, 04:05 AM

Voidwatch is designed to drain away your time / money / resources and have "something to do". That is why everything their doing is to drag it out for as long as possible. Same with legion / neo nyzule, designed with minimal time / reward ratio's and lots of "luck" *cough* Barance sprinkled in.

I'm not expecting any form of actual fixes for at least another year.

Demon6324236

05-21-2012, 04:57 AM

Only way this might help isn't the ticket system, rather I'm sure some partys will want people to weaken the monster just to get the battle over with or make it easier to win, then again now that procing weakens the NM might not be the case, just means procing is all the more important. But I can see shouts for NMs such as Kalasutrax & Morta to require people to weaken it due to its difficulty. Depending on the weakening price I hope this isn't the case, but never know.

After this update, I see VW shouts changing a bit, possible shout for Kaggen & Kalasutrax being...
"T3 (Jeuno) Kaggen (Looking for members) (jobs) Tickets:1Mil"
"T6 (Jeuno) Kalasutrax (Looking for members) (Jobs) Must have Relic/Emp & (Weakening item)"
Or something like this which will basicly ruin their reasons for even doing these things this way.

Insaniac

05-21-2012, 06:47 AM

It should have been "add item to loot pool". Plain and simple. They could have even kept the stipulation that you need to already have the item to be able to add it to the loot pool. They would have covered every r/e item without having to worry about tickets or inventory space or selling outside of the alliance that killed the mob. They went out of their way to continue screwing us. Just to draw out the lifespan of an event everyone has been sick of for 6 months. It's really pretty infuriating. We had a little over a year of devs that actually listened to what we wanted, within reason, and it was glorious. I'm sure some of the dev fail has to do with pressure being put on them to spend as little money as possible so they can continue to support Tanaka's other disaster but there has to be a limit on how many FUs they can throw at us. The only way to beat them is to just stop doing VW.

SpankWustler

05-21-2012, 08:23 AM

To be fair, it is entirely possible the Development Bros have no ulterior motive.

They may simply be deranged or dumb or both.

If Voidwatch chests before were the act of being kicked in the groin, I'd compare this ticket system to building a Rube Goldberg machine to kick one's groin with 1% less intensity than kicks administered previous. Also, the reason for being kicked earlier is not known, but the universe of the mind is pervaded by the feeling that one's groin must be kicked. Thus, a bombastic nonsense machine is built using string and old boots and two hamsters and one candle and a lot of tin scraps. So many tin scraps.

Like something at the never-written end of the most comical unfinished Franz Kafka novel. I can't even complain about this new ticket system in a way that makes sense; it's a black hole that sucks up anything good or rational. It's even worse than the people expecting something bad expected.

MarkovChain

05-21-2012, 08:36 AM

If you complain enough tickets will be sellable, they always backpedal when there is enough complaints.

Demon6324236

05-21-2012, 08:40 AM

SpankWustler

05-21-2012, 09:19 AM

Going to chime in with "Why, oh merciless and malevolent God, can we not sell the tickets in bazaars?" since I haven't said that outright:

Why, oh merciless and malevolent God, can we not sell the tickets in bazaars?

Voidwatch already borders on being on a decent source of gil, and being able to sell the tickets would slightly enhance that aspect of Voidwatch. The ticket system that is currently planned, on the other hand, will greatly enhance the "I have depression." aspect of Voidwatch.

I understand that sitting alone in a dark room and drinking cheap gin directly from its plastic bottle is an important aspect of Voidwatch, and must be acknowledged in all updates to Voidwatch, but it has other aspects as well. Stuff like obtaining items to use or sell.

And Spank, I read that, barley understood it, but I admit, yes, it makes no sense at all, just SE being SE as always I guess right?

You understood more of it than I did, than, and I typed it!

Insaniac

05-21-2012, 09:37 AM

Well you see if they made it simply goto the pool then they would defiantly have people outside the party waiting to buy, because then you have your entire item right there, also it would be way~ to easy to get it for your ls members, just bring a party of 18 ls mates, 6 have it already, in 20 pops of Kaggen you will get everything for everyone probably. My question for you is what's wrong with that? Other than the fact that they have no meaningful content lined up why shouldn't we be allowed to start wrapping up VW? The only issue with people not needing to do VW anymore is HMPs and cinder/dross which they can easily add a new source for. Why cant we start moving past this "event" after 12+ horrific months of wasted time? Sometimes content needs to be finite for it to not suck.

Demon6324236

05-21-2012, 10:17 AM

My question for you is what's wrong with that? Other than the fact that they have no meaningful content lined up why shouldn't we be allowed to start wrapping up VW? The only issue with people not needing to do VW anymore is HMPs and cinder/dross which they can easily add a new source for. Why cant we start moving past this "event" after 12+ horrific months of wasted time? Sometimes content needs to be finite for it to not suck.

Its just because its great gear, I honestly don't want everyone running around with the best gear because then it makes it feel pointless to get in the 1st place imo. Thats why I'm a melee RDM, because they don't actually exist! Its like me playing MNK, I would love to be a good MNK, but it feels pointless when every MNK in the game who actually plays MNK for more than blue procs, has a Black Belt, lv85-99 H2H Emp or Relic, and Full AF3+2 with AF2+2 hands...

There should be gear thats good and only a few have. When everyone has it, then it becomes common and you no longer care that you have it, its just another Rajas ring, its good gear, but everyone has it, so its not special to you at all, just another piece of gear. I think everyone should have GOOD gear, but not GREAT gear, and VW gear is great, while abyssea is good. I'm not by any means saying I think it should take someone 200 Kaggens, to get 1 body. I'm just saying I think it should take some effort and time, so not everyone has it. Because I think Black Belt is a good example of what was once pro gear, that is now a joke to get.

Insaniac

05-21-2012, 10:28 AM

I've never been of that school of thought. I don't care what other people have especially when getting said gear just boils down to dumb luck. It really seems pretty selfish to not want other people to get what they want so you can feel good. I would prefer a point system over any of this ticket or add to pool BS so equal work would have to be put in instead of some people going 1/1 and others going 0/500+ but that is never gonna happen. I've put in a lot of work and have very little of what I actually want from VW. Even this stuff that's supposedly easy to obtain. Also, with a few exceptions, most VW gear isn't even that great.

Demon6324236

05-21-2012, 10:57 AM

I'm not saying I want to have it and only me so I feel good about it, I'm just saying I wish there was some gear hard to get, takes effort, and few have. This used to exist in the game, you could tell when someone really cared about the job they were on, and they worked hard to be as strong as they were. Now days everyone has a Relic, an Emp, and Mythic is the last real type of thing that shows how hard you worked. Also everyone has nice gear all +2 with the old pro rings and earrings. It just feels like everyone, even people who just started and leeched from 30-99 with no real idea what they are doing, can get the best gear if people help them with it. No real effort or skill is needed, for anything, only money.

I think making everything luck based only ruins the game because it means everything you do could be completely pointless, there is no guaranty any amount of work will actually pay off, as you said, some people go 1/1 like I did with Heka's while others are 0/500, and that needs to change, because all it does is piss people off.

Insaniac

05-21-2012, 12:04 PM

I can understand your point of view but I don't see how it applies to VW or an "add to pool" option. Having a piece of VW gear doesn't automatically say anything about your skill or devotion to a job. The event rewards neither skill or devotion. Maybe player A worked hard for his Toci's and set up dozens of runs and went 1/340 but player B just waltzed in, played terribly, and rode on the shoulders of people who knew what they were doing and went 1/4. Player B is no more devoted than some pink THF so who cares if they make it not soul crushing? Just gimme my shit is basically what I'm saying. I've put in my work and people who have put in far less have been rewarded where I haven't. I'm sick of VW in every way imaginable and I just want to be done with it so I don't see a problem with someone's mule being able to add their 4th w/e to the loot pool. I was hoping the ticket system would at least be some kind of help but it won't. People are still just as screwed as they have been for the last year.

Byrth

05-21-2012, 12:06 PM

You could make shouts and lock the ticket, I guess.

Insaniac

05-21-2012, 01:36 PM

Yeah I was thinking people might shout for groups where they will pay some mils for tickets to get people who already have w/e item they are after to join. I dunno how successful it would be though. I think you would have to dangle a pretty big chunk of gil to get someone to join for a .5% chance to earn some money. That would still only really work on Jeuno T3 bodies though and maybe city path bodies. The drop rates on glow weapons are so low you would probably never see 3 tickets.

Demon6324236

05-21-2012, 01:53 PM

Oh I know the feel, tbh I was about to just give up on VW till the ticket system because I thought it was going to make things better, and then I could start up again and actually get my things. I have been trying to spam Aello whenever I have a chance because I want Ephemeron, and in all my fights I have seen 2 drop to other people, which depresses me that the ticket system will help me in absolutely no way at all! And what your saying isn't bad, like you said effort=nothing luck=everything in VW. I guess what I mean to say, is if they changed VW to where effort mattered such as the point system, it would be more showing of effort like old great gear once was. Forget my argument about having gear that is rare to see, all there is for that is Mythic, and honestly all gear now is common in some form, weapons are the only true rare things, thats why in VW we have weapons with what seem to be .1% drop rates while armors get what seems to be 1%...

MarkovChain

05-21-2012, 10:59 PM

Its just because its great gear, I honestly don't want everyone running around with the best gear because then it makes it feel pointless to get in the 1st place imo

Voidwatch gear is garbage dude, people do it for meteor/arise/cider/dross/metal plates.

Mahoro

05-21-2012, 11:59 PM

Heka's Kalasiris, Anhur Robe, Prolix Ring, Osseus Plate, Impatiens, Whetted Molar, and Rubeus Boots are not, and will likely never be, garbage.

If your statement said "2/3rds of Voidwatch gear is garbage," I might have agreed.

if your statement said "Voidwatch gear is garbage for MNK," as most of your blanket statements contain implicit assumptions about MNK, I might have not replied.

If, instead, you reply and say "Nyzul gear is so much better than Voidwatch crap," I would point out to you that at least 3 of the above-listed items directly impact performance in Neo-Nyzul.

Chimerawizard

05-22-2012, 12:07 AM

Greetings!

Here is a follow-up from Mizuki Ito in regards to Voidwatch adjustments.

Please revise those revisions. If you read the responses, it's easy to see the ticket system will be crap. You'd be better off with any of the other ideas put out.
examples
(screw tickets, increase drop rate)
(not Ex)
(mob based tickets) IE: Heka's Kalasiris req:25 Keka's Ticket, Sceamol Band=1 ticket, Omphalos Bullet=5
etc

Demon6324236

05-22-2012, 02:56 AM

Voidwatch gear is garbage dude, people do it for meteor/arise/cider/dross/metal plates.

This is why most DDs use the Belt from Kaggen, healers use or want Heka's, people want Mekira, people want Toci's, people want the body from T2 CoP, people want this gear because it is garbage? No, MNK gets little use from VW gear because its gets all its good gear handed to it, all you need is a Black Belt and you basically can cap haste with the least effort ever, and Black Belt is so hard to get these days right? I know people who want the belt from Kaggen due to its great haste and go 0/100+ on it because of how VW drops are. Yet your nice little belt takes a few runs of some KSNMs which are even easier because now you can take your KCs & HKCs you got from abyssea all this time, and provided you don't use them, turn them into KSs. Your +2 gear is easy, your +2 relic is easy, honestly I haven't seen any gear MNK uses that is honestly hard to get when compared to VW gear. Most jobs apart from MNK, actually make use of said gear, even if you don't. Also, if this gear is garbage, why do people complain they are 0/100+ on pieces of it? Not complain that plates, cid, dross, spells, and the such don't drop enough?

Camate

05-22-2012, 04:10 AM

Happy Monday everyone!

I have a follow-up comment from Mizuki Ito in response to all of the feedback received about the Voidwatch ticket system.

Thanks for all of your feedback on the ticket system. I’d like to give some follow-up information regarding this. (I’ve actually been discussing this in meetings.)

After looking into the specifications for this ticket system, as a result of continuous experimenting and testing while working on the feature for placing tickets into the treasure chest, we reached a conclusion that there would be a chance that a market tickets would develop even if it wasn’t possible to trade them and regardless of what system was adopted.

With this said, there is no meaning behind making them untradeable.

I believe there are pros and cons for both sides, but I am thinking that the best result would be to relegate this to you all and change it to a system where there is higher chance to help others and still make it so you can give tickets to others free of charge.

However, by making the tickets tradable, we will be changing the system so that more tickets are required to obtain equipment. It will also be necessary to fight the monster that drops the equipment and receive the title for defeat.

The below are the planned changes:

Tickets will be made tradable.
Two requirements will need to be fulfilled in order to exchange tickets for equipment.

Must possess 5 of the same type of ticket.
(As we are currently revisiting this, there is a possibility that this number changes.)
Must have the title proving defeat of the monster that drops the respective piece of equipment.

We also received a lot of feedback regarding the possibility of having a different item be created when you change a piece of equipment into a ticket.

This is a nice idea for both the ticket giver and the receiver creating a win-win situation, but since we ultimately decided to make tickets tradable, we felt that even without this idea the tickets will find their way to those who want them, so we decided to put this off for now.

MarkovChain

05-22-2012, 04:30 AM

This is why most DDs use the Belt from Kaggen, healers use or want Heka's, people want Mekira, people want Toci's, people want the body from T2 CoP, people want this gear because it is garbage

belt sucks hekka sucks toci sucks what else ? You are one of those noobs that spam voidwatch for gear you *think* are good.

By "people" you are probably referring to the noobs that go along with you ? VW is a plot to to supply the majority of good players with the plate/cinder/dross they need and meteor/arise is a giant carot to keep them doing so over and over.

EDIT : I told you all that if you kept complaining they would listen. Good job I guess.

Kaisha

05-22-2012, 04:51 AM

Last update:

Devs: We want you to work with your friends whom you may have to spend hundreds of thousands on gil's worth of voiddust for them so they'll bother opening chest on an NM they have a body for!

This update

Devs: Hope you have 50mil gil to buy in tickets for the body you're 0/250 on for the people mercing them, since no one else would waste stones without a real incentive for themself.

How about they just adjust the core problem which is that the drop rates are abyssmal to start with?

Demon6324236

05-22-2012, 05:01 AM

belt sucks hekka sucks toci sucks what else ? You are one of those noobs that spam voidwatch for gear you *think* are good.

By "people" you are probably referring to the noobs that go along with you ? VW is a plot to to supply the majority of good players with the plate/cinder/dross they need and meteor/arise is a giant carot to keep them doing so over and over.

I told you all that if you kept complaining they would listen. Good job I guess.

Yes, 6% Haste on most heavy DD jobs, you know, jobs that cant actually use Twilight, this 6% haste sucks, who would want that at all. WAR, DRK, PLD, SAM, DRK, they have no use for such a thing! +15% Cure Potency & -15% Cure Cast Time?! Worthless! What mage wants much better cures and lower cast time with 1 piece of gear!? It even has MND, so cures are a little bit more powerful and some refresh, damn thats shitty. And gives sphere of fast cast!? What reason would I want mages, DRKs, PLDs, or other jobs near me to cast faster with lower delay between them!? Your right, they do suck, what was I thinking, these are obviously horrible pieces of gear! -_-

I actually count you calling Heka's shitty, as trolling. Thats like if I were to say to you, Black Belt is a shitty piece of gear. 12% Haste, less damage taken, some STR, but its a shitty piece of gear even though those are things essential for a MNK, and it gives them all to you right there, even easy to get now. Doesn't even have a 1% drop rate.

Mahoro

05-22-2012, 05:28 AM

Demon6324236

05-22-2012, 05:53 AM

It IS trolling, no doubt about it. Heka's is the best healing body for almost every job listed on the item. He likely means it "sucks" for WHM, as I know very well his opinion of mage jobs besides WHM. And he'd be wrong even about that. While it is better to cure in Orison Bliaud +2 for the cureskin bonuses, Heka's is still a great precast/idle body for WHM (when matched with a Nefer Khat/+1).

Its just his MNK view, and I admit, VW doesnt offer much more than those items he stated for MNK, but thats not to say in any form the gear from it sucks because some of the gear there is the best there is. And thats what makes it trolling, completly ignoring the fact other jobs actualy exist lol.

SpankWustler

05-22-2012, 06:02 AM

MarkovChain

05-22-2012, 06:08 AM

Heka's is still a great precast/idle body for WHM (when matched with a Nefer Khat/+1).

That's awesome

Demon6324236

05-22-2012, 06:08 AM

I shall now attempt to look on the bright side.

Requiring the titles is a nice touch and the system now planned is not as earth-shatteringly awful as that planned before. I'm glad the Development Bros listened to the tormented choir of wailing misery that so quickly and uniformly appeared within the community.

Enough looking on the bright side. Time to go drink some mouthwash because Voidwatch is still depressing.

I admit looking on the brightside is bad, we bitched alot, we made progress, things still are gonna suck, lets bitch more, and maybe, just maybe, they will actualy fix the entire problem with VW, that or we just hope it will come later and this will help out for now, either way myself I rather just bitch some more till a real fix tbh, seems more effective than hoping.

MarkovChain

05-22-2012, 06:11 AM

Yes, 6% Haste on most heavy DD jobs, you know, jobs that cant actually use Twilight

nirnurta's sash has been in this game for like 8 years, you are a bit late.

inbefore : missing accuracy and all the usal blurb. Have your bard bring real songs and your melee the correct food then we can talk.

Mahoro

05-22-2012, 06:12 AM

That's awesome

It is, isn't it? Best part is I can still use it when I switch from WHM to my BRD, SCH, or SMN and utilize all of its effects. That's even more awesome.

Insaniac

05-22-2012, 06:49 AM

We also received a lot of feedback regarding the possibility of having a different item be created when you change a piece of equipment into a ticket.

This is a nice idea for both the ticket giver and the receiver creating a win-win situation, but since we ultimately decided to make tickets tradable, we felt that even without this idea the tickets will find their way to those who want them, so we decided to put this off for now.

Making a universal mob ticket that you get any time you smash a r/e piece of gear would fix everything wrong with voidwatch's loot system. Do not hold off. In fact, do nothing else until this has been implemented. If you have to make tickets untradable again for the sake or baransu so be it. Just make this happen.

Demon6324236

05-22-2012, 06:49 AM

nirnurta's sash has been in this game for like 8 years, you are a bit late.

inbefore : missing accuracy and all the usal blurb. Have your bard bring real songs and your melee the correct food then we can talk.

No~ I actually own and use a Ninurta's myself, I was however waiting for you to say that, your telling me you expect most or high amounts of people to have it? No the belt isn't better but I'm saying this is why people want it, and go after it, and its not bad gear, its rather good, Ninurta's may beat it, but that doesn't change the fact its good gear. I never said that the belt was the BEST belt for DDs, just a really good belt for those who dont have or really want to go get Ninurta's and can't use Twilight/Black. If you want to go into it that much really you could say the new 7% belt and its +1 version with 8% haste win, but really, how common are they?

Luvbunny

05-22-2012, 07:23 AM

5 items is way too much, make it 3 and we call it a day, even with your atrocious low drop rate.

Demon6324236

05-22-2012, 07:29 AM

Also we want more items to be ticketable, not only bodys and a few weapons! Or at least tell us you will do more later on!

Cybernetic_Empire

05-23-2012, 12:32 AM

Fantastic. Forward movement. Another step in the right direction. Now on to addressing heavy metal plate supply!

Demon6324236

05-23-2012, 01:37 AM

Fantastic. Forward movement. Another step in the right direction. Now on to addressing heavy metal plate supply!

Yes please, Emps went stupid with VW, we needed 75 of an item that drop 100% of the time off a NM that we can kill with 4-6 people. Then next "stage" needing 1500 of an item that has like a 20% chance to drop off of a NM we have to have 14-18 people to kill.

Monchat

05-23-2012, 04:20 AM

the fact the lower tier will be clearable with less than 6 (per SE) means the supply will increase noticably.

No~ I actually own and use a Ninurta's myself, I was however waiting for you to say that, your telling me you expect most or high amounts of people to have it? No the belt isn't better but I'm saying this is why people want it, and go after it, and its not bad gear, its rather good, Ninurta's may beat it, but that doesn't change the fact its good gear. I never said that the belt was the BEST belt for DDs, just a really good belt for those who dont have or really want to go get Ninurta's and can't use Twilight/Black. If you want to go into it that much really you could say the new 7% belt and its +1 version with 8% haste win, but really, how common are they?

Ninurta's sash is better and easier to get. there fore the VW belt is crap. What's 5 mil nowadays? 500k of before abyssea? a brown belt was more than that. I remember a discussion in another thread on here, about VW rings. They released 3 wtf rings in the last vw that are not better than some lvl 90 cap rings (from new dynamis NMs), and striclty inferior to mar's ring (1~2M in bazars).

Fupafighter

05-23-2012, 04:40 AM

the fact the lower tier will be clearable with less than 6 (per SE) means the supply will increase noticably.

Ninurta's sash is better and easier to get. there fore the VW belt is crap. What's 5 mil nowadays? 500k of before abyssea? a brown belt was more than that. I remember a discussion in another thread on here, about VW rings. They released 3 wtf rings in the last vw that are not better than some lvl 90 cap rings (from new dynamis NMs), and striclty inferior to mar's ring (1~2M in bazars).
What you meant to say was "ninurta sash is easier to get IF you have chains of promathia 8-1, you're competent, and you have people to help you kill absolute virtue". I see 10+ kaggen shouts a day. Kaggen belt is far easier.

Demon6324236

05-23-2012, 04:41 AM

Well I don't know, myself I only see about 2-3 Ninurta's a day, and I see about 10-15 Phasmida, also AV (at least on Phoenix) doesn't seem highly killed, so as for it being easier, idk, money is easy for some hard for others, depends on method. And its not 5 mil on Phoenix either, average prices I ever have seen are between 9-15 mil, mine was 11. Either way in my experience its not nearly as common. I know for a fact Ninurta's is better, thats obvious by the fact that attack>acc not to mention Spell interruption rate for PLD/DRK/RDM and Subtle Blow. All in all imo the best item in the game for that spot of gear for DDs excluding MNK, doesn't change the fact I almost never see them around.

Also can I say though that if its "easier" to get the worse belt, wouldn't you think it be more fair to get this belt easier, rather than make a shitty belt take 50-200 kills of a NM?

Monchat

05-23-2012, 07:12 AM

What you meant to say was "ninurta sash is easier to get IF you have chains of promathia 8-1, you're competent, and you have people to help you kill absolute virtue". I see 10+ kaggen shouts a day. Kaggen belt is far easier.
you dont pope AV you buy the belt from bazaars.

saevel

05-23-2012, 07:57 AM

I know for a fact Ninurta's is better, thats obvious by the fact that attack>acc not to mention Spell interruption rate for PLD/DRK/RDM and Subtle Blow

For the love of all that is holy stop thinking that way.

On anything worth a damn you will not be automatically capping accuracy, this isn't abyssea anymore. I've seen too many of our parses where people are at ~80% accuracy. T6 Voidwatch / Ig / Rex / Prov (pre-fights) / Morta / Bismark are where I see people making this mistake the most.

MarkovChain

05-23-2012, 07:58 AM

Fupafighter is a recent player he doesn't have a good grasp of the correct reward/(time spent) ratio. Nin sahs for a few milions is definitely a good deal seing the whole process of just poping AV is taking several days solo (assuming you can solo the pop).

Demon6324236

05-23-2012, 07:59 AM

you dont pope AV you buy the belt from bazaars.

There are only as many Ninurta's in bazaars as there are people killing AV and getting it to sell.

Demon6324236

05-23-2012, 08:06 AM

For the love of all that is holy stop thinking that way.

On anything worth a damn you will not be automatically capping accuracy, this isn't abyssea anymore. I've seen too many of our parses where people are at ~80% accuracy. T6 Voidwatch / Ig / Rex / Prov (pre-fights) / Morta / Bismark are where I see people making this mistake the most.

Its not abyssea, no, but we are still stocked with Stalwarts for acc, Bravers for DEX(acc), and most DD gear is stocked with acc... Really I don't see how your accuracy can be all to bad when you have all this accuracy given to you easy and simple.

Alkimi

05-23-2012, 08:14 AM

You'd be surprised. Even with all that I've still seen DDs parse at sub 50% accuracy on things like Rex, a lot of people still have the abyssea mindset where they think they're auto-capped accuracy all the time.

Last time we did Rex only the relic holders were above 90%, and they had +35 accuracy on their weapons. 1-handed jobs and MNKs had to use pizza/sushi to even get a respectable hit rate on him to land triggers.

Demon6324236

05-23-2012, 08:23 AM

Well then in that case it means my argument VW gear isnt shit, is even more so correct seeing as the acc is needed.

saevel

05-23-2012, 08:46 AM

Its not abyssea, no, but we are still stocked with Stalwarts for acc, Bravers for DEX(acc), and most DD gear is stocked with acc... Really I don't see how your accuracy can be all to bad when you have all this accuracy given to you easy and simple.

With Berserk + Aggressor + Last Resort + Soul Eater + Stalwarts + Bravers and a Jingang (prior to my Rag) I would typically have ~80% on those fights. And I don't have sh!t gear.

Those things have ridiculously high level correction to go with their ridiculously high stats. Outside of Feint or an Embrava SV BRD zerg you will not be capping accuracy (Relic Wielders notwithstanding).

6 acc will raise your hit rate by 3%, 6 attack isn't even a drop in the bucket to your Attack Ratio. Thus the attack > accuracy is only true when your fighting relatively weak stuff, otherwise Haste > Accuracy > Attack = DA > STR/DEX as a general rule of thumb.

Demon6324236

05-23-2012, 10:51 AM

With Berserk + Aggressor + Last Resort + Soul Eater + Stalwarts + Bravers and a Jingang (prior to my Rag) I would typically have ~80% on those fights. And I don't have sh!t gear.

Those things have ridiculously high level correction to go with their ridiculously high stats. Outside of Feint or an Embrava SV BRD zerg you will not be capping accuracy (Relic Wielders notwithstanding).

6 acc will raise your hit rate by 3%, 6 attack isn't even a drop in the bucket to your Attack Ratio. Thus the attack > accuracy is only true when your fighting relatively weak stuff, otherwise Haste > Accuracy > Attack = DA > STR/DEX as a general rule of thumb.

Well, myself I don't actually use DD jobs in VW. I'm always a SCH or BLU, I just went with the idea of it being that way because not many wanted to say much to Mr.VW gear is shit, but when I say Attack>Acc oh its on! But no matter how good or bad VW gear is, it wont matter much, not like were getting any with drops shitty as they are and SE barely doing anything to fix it right?

Fupafighter

05-23-2012, 11:28 AM

Demon6324236

05-23-2012, 11:55 AM

I have never seen ninurta's sash below 7 mil. Just saying. Alot of people get that belt while trying for mekira body. Wait I forgot, that must be garbage too because it comes from VW. OH wait 100 nyzle gear must be trash too. Gtfo lol...

I know right? Though, the belt drop rate sucks too, I have seen alot of people I have partied up with saying they want the belt but are like 0/80 while they have gotten a body or 2.

saevel

05-23-2012, 06:11 PM

Well, myself I don't actually use DD jobs in VW. I'm always a SCH or BLU, I just went with the idea of it being that way because not many wanted to say much to Mr.VW gear is shit, but when I say Attack>Acc oh its on! But no matter how good or bad VW gear is, it wont matter much, not like were getting any with drops shitty as they are and SE barely doing anything to fix it right?

VWNM gear is pretty awesome, you gotta ignore pchan he's trolling everyone cause he gets a kick out of it. He says the things he does because it gets people all hot and bothered, best way to deal with him is click the ignore button.

That being said, it's not always the "best in slot" for every job, so use what you can. Voidwatch has become common now, so the elitists have moved on to Neo-Nyzule 100 gear as their branding of choice. Gotta bust out them Nike's right.

Demon6324236

05-23-2012, 07:36 PM

VWNM gear is pretty awesome, you gotta ignore pchan he's trolling everyone cause he gets a kick out of it. He says the things he does because it gets people all hot and bothered, best way to deal with him is click the ignore button.

That being said, it's not always the "best in slot" for every job, so use what you can. Voidwatch has become common now, so the elitists have moved on to Neo-Nyzule 100 gear as their branding of choice. Gotta bust out them Nike's right.

I know, been lookin at the last 20 pages over at the ADL thread, not hard to tell the trolling going there. Just sayin funny I get jumped for it. In any case belts are situational as all other pieces of gear are, Phas better on high EVA things and Nin on basicly everything else. RDM more than anything would be a choice between them because of RDM's lower acc, while Ninurta's also holds a ton of melee mage benefits.

MarkovChain

05-23-2012, 07:38 PM

MarkovChain

05-23-2012, 07:40 PM

mekira body. Wait I forgot, that must be garbage too because it comes from VW.

Yes, toss it.

Demon6324236

05-23-2012, 07:57 PM

Yes, toss it.

Begone pest. Come back when you know how to judge gear other than for MNK alone.

Godofgods

05-24-2012, 12:32 AM

Making them tradeable so people can help each other out is a good idea. HOWEVER, you need to find a way so they actuly are TRADABLE. Otherwise it will be like everything else in this game. Ppl will only SELL them. Not trade them. Even without bazzar. PPl will just shout type/price and trade item/gill. Aka... selling.

Fupafighter

05-24-2012, 03:01 AM

Anyone who uses sushi is dumb lol. Acc caps fairly easy.

Demon6324236

05-24-2012, 03:54 AM

Anyone who uses sushi is dumb lol. Acc caps fairly easy.

I would think so as well however I will trust them with the EVA of T6 VWNMs due to the fact I don't DD on them. If they are incorrect then yes, its stupid to use acc things you don't need obviously, however if they arnt~ then its better. I will however say that Abyssea did get the idea around that accuracy was dead because if you were a DD, you basically always used Razed Ruins, and had your AF3+2 gear with alot of acc, and had cruor buffs so your DEX was similar to 96+150~ making acc cap easier than anything else lol.

Fupafighter

05-24-2012, 04:28 AM

Sushi is never the answer. temps, and gear should be your solution. Red curry bun 95% of time. The other 5% of the time you need accuracy, use pizza.

Fupafighter

05-24-2012, 04:28 AM

Listening to Pchan is dumb. He is the guy that is convinced that mnk tp as fast as samurai mmkkk.

Demon6324236

05-24-2012, 04:47 AM

Sushi is never the answer. temps, and gear should be your solution. Red curry bun 95% of time. The other 5% of the time you need accuracy, use pizza.

Well I'm sure they counted temps in this or everything they said would mean nothing... As for gear that depends, myself I rather haste over acc, if I would have to sacrifice my haste for acc, no, I'm using food... And I wont pretend to know what food is better in which case, by the time abyssea hit I wasn't nearly as much into the game as I wish I was, so I never really used food all to much. Due to this I just use Red Curry Buns when I'm on my RDM because my attack sucks without it anyways, and don't use any other food other than the occasional Cream Puff, when on SCH or BLU.

Demon6324236

05-24-2012, 05:03 AM

Listening to Pchan is dumb. He is the guy that is convinced that mnk tp as fast as samurai mmkkk.

Thats just... thats funny how fuckin stupid that is honestly... A good SAM+Embrava+Haste might as well be brewing with how fast they WS... In any case I don't agree with him really, I agree with Saevel & Alkimi, just the fact that he said the same thing basically means I'm forced to agree with him as well... I mean not EVERYTHING he says is stupid, just 99.9% of it... I think...

Monchat

05-24-2012, 06:05 AM

Sushi is never the answer. temps, and gear should be your solution. Red curry bun 95% of time. The other 5% of the time you need accuracy, use pizza.

are we back to 2003? ace's helms, usukane sune-ate etc? It's the other way arround. You have acc pb you solve it with food.

Fupafighter

05-24-2012, 06:53 AM

Fupafighter

05-24-2012, 06:57 AM

Well I'm sure they counted temps in this or everything they said would mean nothing... As for gear that depends, myself I rather haste over acc, if I would have to sacrifice my haste for acc, no, I'm using food... And I wont pretend to know what food is better in which case, by the time abyssea hit I wasn't nearly as much into the game as I wish I was, so I never really used food all to much. Due to this I just use Red Curry Buns when I'm on my RDM because my attack sucks without it anyways, and don't use any other food other than the occasional Cream Puff, when on SCH or BLU.
My point is why use sushi, when you cap acc with pizza, and then gain attack from the pizza too. Sushi is just pointless.
I rarely miss tier 6 VW with just temps and pizza. You know that 5% range that you will miss guarenteed >.>

Demon6324236

05-24-2012, 07:20 AM

Yep, I just don't know how potent each is, that was my problem, if pizza is attack+acc but sushi is just acc, and you already cap with pizza, duh, use pizza. Like I said though, don't know food well, so saying pizza vs sushi just makes me hungry but doesn't tell me much about what 1s better, I just know sushi is a really good acc food.

saevel

05-24-2012, 07:24 AM

I would rather have 150 attack over the measly 30 acc it would take to cap acc on any relevant monster. Tier 6 and PW are the only things I can think of that you would actually need acc. And then, it's very minor, so pizza is alot more useful.

Umm you do realize your just admitted to wanting lower damage output right?

30 acc is 15% hit rate and will increase your damage by approximately that much. 150 Attack would have less of an effect.

Acc is something you need to fine tune, and there are some NMs where you just use sushi unless you have a Relic. If you've ever done parsing you know the best DD's are the ones at or near the acc cap.

Fupafighter

05-24-2012, 07:35 AM

saevel

05-24-2012, 07:49 AM

That's my point demon. And parsing VW mobs doesnt mean shit. Stop using that as evidence unless your evidence includes that those DD didn't use any other ws besides their main ws. For all I know the ukon war was cycling his great axe ws. Annoiying when people parse voidwatch. Only person it helps is yourself.

I've already counted for that. You know it kinda displays the WS choices use's and such. You can ~always~ tell who's slacking and who's not. People in the top bracket in parses always have near capped hit rate.

Most important thing is it tells you your hit rate, and if you know how much accuracy you had and you know your average hit rate, then you have a very good idea how much accuracy is needed to cap.

Parses will let you know who's watching TV or doing some other activity other then focusing as their Ws rate will be atrocious. It tells you who not to invite next time.

Fupafighter

05-24-2012, 07:50 AM

You don't need a parse to be able to judge if your accuracy is good on samurai lol.

Fupafighter

05-24-2012, 07:51 AM

Or dark. Or warrior.

saevel

05-24-2012, 08:05 AM

So says the person who claimed SD wasn't good for SAM and that their Masa was better.

"Eyeballing" is NEVER A GOOD IDEA. Classic example "my acc is just fine" as I look at their 68% hit rate on parse.

Fupafighter

05-24-2012, 08:13 AM

So says the person who claimed SD wasn't good for SAM and that their Masa was better.

"Eyeballing" is NEVER A GOOD IDEA. Classic example "my acc is just fine" as I look at the 68% hit rate on parse.
Tell me where I said It's better. I just wanted facts lol. And you can simply "eyeball" your tp on samurai by watching your damn tp lol. Or filter it so you can see when you missed. Not hard. I don't have accuracy issues... and jobs like sam war drk and drg get zanshin do they not? Some people just don't try. I do great with pizza on tier 6.

MarkovChain

05-24-2012, 08:22 AM

My point is why use sushi, when you cap acc with pizza

It's not your point because then the discussion is pointless. Your point is that melees should not be using sushi when they don't cap because RCB does so much [otherwise you would no be mentionning RCB]. Anyone TPing while not capping accuracy is stupid for doing so. Also it's funny that same guys acting like semi elitist go all about "lol abyssea noobs thinking they cap acc everywhere", and then a few posts after go "oh but I have temps I don't need sushi".

Fupafighter

05-24-2012, 08:35 AM

Because you have temps....flat out. That gets factored in. I just know from experience, that pizza does the job for me on anything that I'm lacking acc on.

saevel

05-24-2012, 08:46 AM

Tell me where I said It's better. I just wanted facts lol. And you can simply "eyeball" your tp on samurai by watching your damn tp lol. Or filter it so you can see when you missed. Not hard. I don't have accuracy issues... and jobs like sam war drk and drg get zanshin do they not? Some people just don't try. I do great with pizza on tier 6.

You just said TP, I said accuracy. Accuracy is not something you can eyeball, this was proved back in 2004.

Pizza is 40 acc and 50 atk, +1 is 44acc 55atk. That is 20 ~ 22% hit rate increase which should be enough unless your a MNK / NIN / THF / BLU / ect.. type job. Problem with pizza is that it doesn't stack and people die in voidwatch, especially DD's who are standing point blank range for the aoe spam of death. So while you may start off with a pizza, after one or two fights you could be left empty handed, this is why you should always carry a spare stash of Sushi. RCB's are things I pull out for fights like Prov where I know I'm getting madrigal's to go with my minuets and thus accuracy should be capped on all melee. Might pull them on Kala / Ig / Rex if I'm not sure about the group I'm with.

I don't have accuracy issues...

I've heard that from so many melee since 2004, and they always had accuracy issues.

Fupafighter

05-24-2012, 08:52 AM

Fupafighter

05-24-2012, 08:57 AM

It's not your point because then the discussion is pointless. Your point is that melees should not be using sushi when they don't cap because RCB does so much [otherwise you would no be mentionning RCB]. Anyone TPing while not capping accuracy is stupid for doing so. Also it's funny that same guys acting like semi elitist go all about "lol abyssea noobs thinking they cap acc everywhere", and then a few posts after go "oh but I have temps I don't need sushi".
No. I said that when you're not capping acc, pizza will make up for it, and give you attack, so why use sushi. I'm done talking to you. Next thing I need to hear is that mnk will tp faster than sam with sushi or some shit.

saevel

05-24-2012, 06:27 PM

Well I don't lol. My gear is actually good. But hey I'm glad you actually somewhat agree about the pizza part. I forgot I was talking about HEAVY DD. Light DD swing more, so accuracy is usually more of an issue. And yes, people die, you could run out. But for my heavy DD, I have not had an issue with my pizza. And if your group is dying that often, does it even pay to use food lol?. -.-

Nonsense, no matter how much you swing accuracy effects you the same. The only job that can possibly claim a different accuracy situation is SAM due to Zanshin's high proc rate. You pick your food based on your parsed acc rate, this is where having one guy in your alliance you know to do the parsing at least once comes in handy. Then you know what amount of acc you need to hit cap and which adjustments you need to do, especially if your using aggressor (you ARE using aggressor right). You can further make an aggressor up / down TP macro that puts in extra acc for when it's down to compensate. On DRK I just pop DE when Agg goes down and ride it for 2min, other jobs might not be as lucky.

MarkovChain

05-24-2012, 06:57 PM

No. I said that when you're not capping acc, pizza will make up for it, and give you attack, so why use sushi. I'm done talking to you. Next thing I need to hear is that mnk will tp faster than sam with sushi or some shit.

No that was not your point. Your point is basically that using sushi is stupid, learn2DD gimplet. Actually I doubt you noobs have 4x songs BRDs when you do voidfail so I'll just suggest you to eat sushi. Pizza was proven to be good on mob up to 6 levels above you.

Fupafighter

05-25-2012, 02:28 AM

I just think you is stupid sir lol. Pchan I mean. Any 2 hander that has accuracy issues, should just get off the job. Or you shouldn't be fighting a tier 6 lol. 2 handers already have the advantage over 1 handers accuracy wise (usually aggressor zanshin and more acc from 3 dex = 2 acc instead of 2 dex = 1 acc for 1 handers). And Pchan, will you ever learn that no one takes you seriously on this forum. All you do is brag about your freakin mnk and your either mule brd or sex slave brd that go around perfect defense killing everything. It's rather annoiying. You never actually offer input. I don't mind saeval, he atleast counters with accurate information. All 2 handers should know how to time job abilities to take advantage of certain situations such as aggressor to diabolic eye. Here how about this. If you have plenty of damn inventory space, use pizza. If you're a 1 hander, use sushi. If you're dying and feel pizza would be a waste and you may run out, get a new damn group, because your group is failing you. There. Done freaking arguing over accuracy and listening to Pchan talk about being LEET while offering no input.

SpankWustler

05-25-2012, 02:51 AM

This weird discussion is totally on topic, but not because the enemies being discussed are high-tier VoidExhibitionists. This discussion is made relevant by virtue of being almost as awful as Voidwatch itself. It's symbolic!

scaevola

05-25-2012, 04:36 AM

Nonsense, no matter how much you swing accuracy effects you the same. The only job that can possibly claim a different accuracy situation is SAM due to Zanshin's high proc rate. You pick your food based on your parsed acc rate, this is where having one guy in your alliance you know to do the parsing at least once comes in handy. Then you know what amount of acc you need to hit cap and which adjustments you need to do, especially if your using aggressor (you ARE using aggressor right). You can further make an aggressor up / down TP macro that puts in extra acc for when it's down to compensate. On DRK I just pop DE when Agg goes down and ride it for 2min, other jobs might not be as lucky.

I think he may have meant that two-handers need less accuracy because of the different DEX calculation, but the signal got bumrushed by a mob of noise on the way from his hippocampus to his fingers.

Demon6324236

05-25-2012, 06:15 AM

MarkovChain

05-25-2012, 07:39 AM

stuff

Yes 2handers have a slight advantage over monks for accuracy (ridiculus advantage) but there will be no situation where "RCB caps 2handers while monk require pizza to do so", or those situation belong to a very limited number of mobs and likely low levels mobs. With temp items / MADRIGALS (which you don't use since you play in gimpland) / fail COR ROLLs you are probably capped and if not use sushi. This holds for all DD and the mediocre amount of accuracy boost of 2handed DDs has nothing to do with the discussion - even relic holders. You are the one advocating using RCB when acc in uncap, so you lose the game. If that's was not your point then the discussion is irrelevant and you just took the opportunity to spread nonsense about SAM yet again. 2handed DD have been sucking for years, you can't change this. Just because you can afford all jobs at a VW camp doesn't make them good all of a sudden. Everyone caps acc because this is easy mode like abyssea, did you get it now ? Stop trying to imply someone doesn't cap acc because of their job choice.

But I don't think I can convince someone that thinks he can zanshin at will right before a WS like a pro ?

Monchat

05-25-2012, 07:49 AM

so did pupafighter say accuracy is more important for one-hander and less important for 2 handers? You lose, it's equally important for both. You say RCB is a must even if you do not cap accuracy? you lose. Also last I checked Shoha gets an attack boost, so why the RCB loving? Make us a video of how you zanshin and WS right before a swing also.

MarkovChain

05-25-2012, 07:51 AM

Also VW is soon going to be a 6-man zerg fest with, like always, the only jobs that don't suck at DD. If you don't know what they are, check this list as a hint

1 Monk 10.03% ↑（6）
2 Warrior 9.18% ↑（5）
3 White Mage 7.78% ↓（1）
4 Black Mage 7.60% ↓（3）
5 Thief 7.29% ↓（4）
6 Red Mage 7.19% ↓（2）
7 Ninja 5.43% ↑（8）
8 Dancer 4.34% ↑（13）
9 Beastmaster 4.09% ↑（15）
10 Summoner 4.03% ↑（16）
11 Samurai 4.01% ↓（9）
12 Dark Knight 3.87% ↓（11）
13 Paladin 3.83% ↓（7）
14 Ranger 3.74% ↑（17）
15 Bard 3.59% ↓（10）
16 Dragoon 3.44% ↓（12）
17 Blue Mage 3.23% ↓（14）
18 Scholar 2.69% →
19 Corsair 2.54% ↑（20）
20 Puppetmaster 2.10% ↓（19）
http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/guide/development/census/10/2.html

saevel

05-25-2012, 08:19 AM

Yeah ... you realize Zanshin is generally laughed at if your not a SAM (HassoZanshin). And non-relic 2H's won't be capping accuracy on T6's even with Aggressor / Stalwarts. Their LCF is just too high. One of the biggest reasons I decided to build my rag was to get the large Acc bonus so that I wouldn't need to worry about it anymore.

Demon6324236

05-25-2012, 08:33 AM

Also VW is soon going to be a 6-man zerg fest with, like always, the only jobs that don't suck at DD. If you don't know what they are, check this list as a hint

http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/guide/development/census/10/2.html

So? Alot of people level MNK for blue procs, an easy to gear DD/HP tank & Hundred fist PD zergs on the final limit break. Not cause its the best DD, if you take that number as evidence of that then you, are even more a fool than you let on. MNK has way to many applications now to not level it, so alot of people do, thats where you get that large number I'm sure.

Monchat

05-25-2012, 09:42 AM

Demon6324236

05-25-2012, 10:18 AM

the 6 initial jobs have always been the most popular, because they are the most powerful. Now that treasure hunter from THF is useless and SE buried RDM in a grave by making their enfeebles ineffective on any content since 75 cap, they will most likely drop a few ranks (RDM used to be THE job to level up). BLM idk, still usefull imo.

BLM was given the most useful role in both Abyssea & VW, it is called for massively in both of the 2 events. So as for being useful still I would say yes, however this is only if you do those, if you think they are too noob for you like Pchan over there, no, BLM is worthless, because basically everything else seems to be zergs, something a BLM can not do because haste doesn't really help them all to much.

MarkovChain

05-25-2012, 10:30 PM

Hundred fist PD zergs on the final limit break.
Even though the census was conducted when 90 was the level cap ¿ You deserve a facepalm.

Neisan_Quetz

05-25-2012, 10:53 PM

It's nice to know they managed to come up with an addition to VW almost, if not as bad as the proposed ticket system. You have to admire their persistence in adding things no one will use.

Demon6324236

05-26-2012, 12:26 AM

Even though the census was conducted when 90 was the level cap ¿ You deserve a facepalm.

Someone traveled through time and saw it coming!... Ok yeah Ill admit I'm wrong on that part, people still heavily do it for blue procs though, I'm sure you know as well as I do that alot of people do it for Shinryu for Twilight, and the other R/EX gear strewn across abyssea like Zelus & Eponas. I'm an example of this, I have MNK with +1 Head/Hands/Feet & +2 Legs, using my good ol pink body. Sure my MNK looks noob, but I have all blue proc, and since I have all blue proc on MNK, I am called to do blue procs on Shin & other NMs whenever my ls needs it. Gets the job done so I'm happy, and I know a few others who have done the same, I'm sure alot of people do it because its the easier way to get them.

Like I said, I will admit, that was a stupid mistake of me, I think my subconscious kinda made me bold it to make me see I was fkin up. Who knows! But thanks for pointing it out, better to watch out on that kinda mess up.

Demon6324236

05-26-2012, 12:38 AM

It's nice to know they managed to come up with an addition to VW almost, if not as bad as the proposed ticket system. You have to admire their persistence in adding things no one will use.

Oh but you see, people will use it... In their minds, but to everyone else we see it wont do a damned thing. Just need to be like SE, see that somehow... This helps fix our problems! :)

SpankWustler

05-26-2012, 01:10 AM

It's nice to know they managed to come up with an addition to VW almost, if not as bad as the proposed ticket system. You have to admire their persistence in adding things no one will use.

Between this and the way they name everything, to the point that the ticket system and the scatological-sounding Void Nuggets both have more convoluted names incoming, I'm starting to think of them as the evil alien inventors in a giant robot cartoon.

"Someone just almost obtained a pair of pants! I mean, he didn't get them, but he was so close..."
"Fill the Pulse Panoplia with Void Nuggets and deploy it to section 14 of Sadness Space!"
"Yes, Evil Robot Emperor!"

scaevola

05-26-2012, 04:51 AM

People always had WAR and MNK leveled; they are powerful jobs that are relatively difficult to be bad at.

This is speculation but I would not bet a dollar against the "new" MNKs just being people who already had MNK at 75 but were on RDM or BRD all the time.

Khiinroye

05-26-2012, 05:42 AM

Lower level VW doesn't need mnks to lowman it. Celaeno was killed solo at lv 95 by a sch. Even if you're just killing for clears, you'll want to proc / blitz it enough to get to 100 white on most of them, so you can get the periapts and select atmacite. You'd want either a mnk or pup for H2H procs; chi blast can be done via subjob. Either will do, and they are interchangeable since pup gets a few unique procs to make up for the lack of Asuran Fists. For T6, Tavnazia, Aht Urghan, and Provenance, the damage is a bit more important, so mnk will most likely outperform pup due to the scarcity of mythic weapons.

The weakening is just for the people who can't kill it as-is, and is 100k each, with a max of 5 per week per person. Stuff you want drops from is still going to require procs, so no 6 man zerg fest there; Jeuno T3 and lower you have to actually pull off DDs or it will die too fast as it is. I'd guess that if people use it at all, it would be for Botulus Rex, Kalasutrax, and Bismarck, with Ig Alima and Morta being extremely rare possibilities.

In regards to the proc changing, if its like Provenance procs are now, its fine. For the "all pet special attacks" part, well, it doesn't really matter since bst isn't used for voidwatch anyways.

As for the census info from last year that pchan is quoting, please should note that it is reflecting:

Level 02-10: 20.58%
Level 11-20: 16.04%
Level 21-30: 9.65%
Level 31-40: 11.36%
Level 41-50: 9.32%
Level 51-60: 3.76%
Level 61-70: 3.33%
Level 71-80: 7.49%
Level 81-90: 18.47%

Pay attention to the fact that the census data includes any character lv 2 or higher. Furthermore, 31.81% of the characters used are too low level to have a subjob, and 44.52% of them are too low to have any advanced jobs unlocked, so are limited to mnk, war, whm, blm, rdm, or thf. Only 15.56% are lv 90.

They also included a "percentage of jobs at lv 90" chart, at the bottom of the linked page. Here's the info in chart form.

If a single character has leveled multiple jobs to level 90, all of those jobs have been counted in the data.
BLM: 9.46%
WHM: 9.12%
RDM: 8.67%
THF: 7.42%
NIN: 7.45%
WAR: 6.05%
MNK: 5.77%
BLU: 5.16%
PLD: 4.91%
DNC: 4.73%
SAM: 4.65%
SMN: 4.52%
BRD: 4.43%
BST: 3.63%
DRK: 3.48%
DRG: 3.10%
RNG: 2.38%
SCH: 2.17%
COR: 1.63%
PUP: 1.47%

It seems there's a bit of discrepancy with the lv 2-90 totals. The data is still pretty useless, since it counts people in multiple jobs as if they're separate people. I would have liked to see it reflect the percentage of people with the job at lv 90, so the total is 100% x average jobs per person. This would include only people with max level jobs. (i.e. if people on average have 4 jobs at max level, it would total to 400%)

I'm not denying that people leveling mnk and war increased over the 2 year gap. I'm saying the reason is abyssea--mnk can get 14/15 blue procs, as well as 4-5k hp for tanking (lv 90 empyrean NMs, shinryu), and war gets the most red procs of any job. Bst, dnc, and smn also had large increases in popularity--again, abyssea is the cause, not their damage potential. Any job can do stupid amounts of damage in abyssea; war and mnk were just more effective at getting procs.

Overall on the census: unreliable and outdated stats are unreliable and outdated.

MarkovChain

05-26-2012, 08:56 AM

"My chart" is relevant because it is the screenshot of what job people are one at a given time. They are many reason for the distribution to be like this. People use those jobs because that's what they find useful. The chart of level 90 is useless since people that already have good job were spamming exp in abyssea to level other jobs. What matters is the % of mnks at 90, unfortunately they don't show it, and the closest you get is my chart because one can expect that the order is more or less the same considering 20% of all players at a given time are level 90 which is likely several thousands so a comfortable sample size.

Zumi

05-26-2012, 09:12 AM

Demon6324236

05-26-2012, 09:22 AM

Did a 5 Voidcluster Botulus Rex today on the test server, with a Pld. Was able to hold him forever, not enough damage to kill him solo but that is to be expected. His damage goes way down.

http://i.imgur.com/A0eSd.jpg

Now when you say 5... Do you mean 5 each or 5 for 1 of you? If only 1 then this means we can basically turn VWNMs into a joke, so long as we don't mind paying 500k~1Mil to do so.

Zumi

05-26-2012, 09:25 AM

Demon6324236

05-26-2012, 09:41 AM

I used 5 clusters on 1 Rex.

It asks you how many you want to use 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. So I used all 5. Now I can't get any more because even on the test server its set to not let you buy anymore till next tally.

Only the person poping needs clusters, it cost me 500k to buy them.

Ah~ I thought at some point they said that multiple players could buy them and use them in a fight, however I am at a loss trying to find it. ><; Oh well, with those numbers VW will be much easier... Though I have to say, with those numbers VW might be able to be done without temps...

Demon6324236

05-26-2012, 09:59 AM

Which reminds me, I need to log onto the test server and test to see how much if any of VW can be soloed by RDM with those weakness items...

Arcon

05-26-2012, 11:12 AM

Which reminds me, I need to log onto the test server and test to see how much if any of VW can be soloed by RDM with those weakness items...

I highly doubt RDM can do anywhere near enough damage to even put a dent in their HP pool, even in 30min.

Demon6324236

05-26-2012, 11:21 AM

I highly doubt RDM can do anywhere near enough damage to even put a dent in their HP pool, even in 30min.

I soloed the T1 Sandy. I know, big deal, but still... That was without weakness items, and I mainly want to do it just because SE seems to do whatever they can from letting RDM go back to its soloing ways. If I can solo some of them it would be funny to me, and also mean that if I wanted I could actually do something when I'm bored and have the money, just go blow off some steam killin a VWNM or 2 who never drops what I want ^_^

saevel

05-27-2012, 01:31 AM

The weakening items are for clears / runs where you want the atmacite and the win. Getting gear requires spamming them x4 ~ x6 per set which even at 1 item per set ends up being a pretty high cost when your looking at ~50 to get something you want (if your lucky). Its for those who need to kill the big stuff with 6-people who might not be the best geared chaps.

MarkovChain

05-27-2012, 02:33 AM

Mahoro

05-27-2012, 03:13 AM

It's for people that didn't do voidwatch so far because the event is an epic fail. It gives people like me the opportunity to catch up to the last stage quickly, although I don't see why I'd do so because it much faster for me to trade 2 marrows for 1 meteor or arise if I ever want them so explain me why I should do 50 VW waiting to outlot the other 18 ?

It's reeeeallly fail.

Honestly it's going to help the ticket market (plus they are AHable). Lot's of people will just clear all the path then buy as many tickets as they want for bodies. I mean you have to face it ; It's going to be easier getting 5 tickets than spamming 100x18 ally voidfail.

Who does Prov Watcher in PUGs expressly for Meteor/Arise? Your scenario makes no sense. Also, if it helps the ticket market (which only covers glowy items), how does the weakening system fail? Your own example defeats your argument.

The weakening items are for clears / runs where you want the atmacite and the win. Getting gear requires spamming them x4 ~ x6 per set which even at 1 item per set ends up being a pretty high cost when your looking at ~50 to get something you want (if your lucky). Its for those who need to kill the big stuff with 6-people who might not be the best geared chaps.

I suppose it could also help the 18-man PUGs who have trouble defeating some of the big bads. Only the popper loses weakening items, so each person in the 18-man PUG can take turns using 1 or 2 items to decrease the difficulty for all. For example, 18 rounds of Rex, 3 runs of 6 each, each person in the PUG pays 200k total for all 18 fights.

inb4 200k is big moniez....:cool:

Demon6324236

05-27-2012, 04:55 AM

I wasn't saying I would do it for drops, thats procing for lights and spending rubis and way more that I would be stupid enough to think RDM could do solo, but I would still do it for fun. I have been tryin to build up my RDM just so I can solo Goublefaupe, not because some magical thing happens when you solo him or because I have no friends who will help me with him. I want to solo him because I want to for fun/challenge, something this game has honestly lacked for me.

It's for people that didn't do voidwatch so far because the event is an epic fail. It gives people like me the opportunity to catch up to the last stage quickly, although I don't see why I'd do so because it much faster for me to trade 2 marrows for 1 meteor or arise if I ever want them so explain me why I should do 50 VW waiting to outlot the other 18 ?

It's reeeeallly fail.

Honestly it's going to help the ticket market (plus they are AHable). Lot's of people will just clear all the path then buy as many tickets as they want for bodies. I mean you have to face it ; It's going to be easier getting 5 tickets than spamming 100x18 ally voidfail.

Ill just say what I said back on page 33...

Begone pest. Come back when you know how to judge gear other than for MNK alone.

Except this time, really, go away, no one wants to hear your worthless BS because you think VW holds no gear worth getting, it does to other jobs, there are even some pieces for MNK I'm sure. Your just to stupid to see it. So Ill ask nicely, please, shut up, go away, and stop wasting both your, and our time, telling us how the gear we want is shitty and not worth getting.

MarkovChain

05-27-2012, 07:47 AM

Who does Prov Watcher in PUGs expressly for Meteor/Arise?

Everyone including the ones that try self persuasion of the opposite on several forums like you.

Helel

05-27-2012, 08:56 AM

Mahoro

05-27-2012, 08:58 AM

Everyone including the ones that try self persuasion of the opposite on several forums like you.

Lol...I don't do Prov Watcher in PUGs for Meteor and Arise. I got Arise through my LS for DKP, which is the main way I advocated to get it on those "several forums" you mention (another admission you read BG for info while simultaneously bashing them).

I don't honestly know who would subject themselves to a 1 hour set of 4 fights for a 1/18 chance of lotting something that is itself a 1-5/100 chance drop. Except for imaginary players you conjure up in strawman arguments designed for you to beat down. People who do Prov Watcher in PUGs go mainly for the other stuff which can appear in their chests. Freelotting scrolls that drop is a side benefit, not the ultimate goal. They don't go on the run expressly for that reason.

Demon6324236

05-27-2012, 09:00 AM

Everyone including the ones that try self persuasion of the opposite on several forums like you.

That makes alot of sense, ya know, cause no one wants any of the gear...

Sanus Ensis is a badass sword, healing power on a sword means its another push in the right direction for that left behind job once known as RDM. Not only that but it has good stats for melee too, and overall its worth the effort imo.

Plenitas Virga, well as we talked about with blue procing MNKs, this staff is great for that, also its not bad if your a BLM looking to break out that Merit WS and have the nice INT boost your damage!

The Adamas is welcome to any and all PLDs who do not have an Ochain or Aegis yet, but still wish to play their PLD and play it well.

Hyaline Hat is a nice FC piece, and doubles as an enfeebling piece due to the magic acc, and high INT/MND on it.

Drachenhorn is nice for Attack due to its +5% attack, and makes for an excellent WS piece due to the STR DEX VIT INT & MND, there are very few WSs this ISNT good for.

Tessera Saio is amazing for THF especially with a Mandau, that is probably the best WS body they could hope for. It helps COR & RNG with its high Attack, RAttack, STR, AGI, and MAB.

I really don't see the need to list the Abj gear, needless to say, it has its uses, your ideals about people doing this fight for 1 of 2 spells to possibly drop, and for them to try to out lot the others is stupid. Who the hell would go out of their way to make an alliance, fight 3 fights against 2 Caturae each time, just to fight an annoying crystal dragon, and HOPE, that after all this work, they might, just might, see it drop, so that they can lot on it, and again, HOPE they get a higher number than everyone else in the alliance?

Demon6324236

05-27-2012, 09:05 AM

He doesn't have access to provenance I'm guessing (since he said he didn't have clears), so he has to make it seem like the rest of the gear that's rare/ex is worthless. It makes him feel better inside.

This is about the most correct thing I think I have heard about his views on VW. Unwillingness to subject ones self to the poor drop rates of VW and thus the avoidance of admitting any gear in it is worth any time what-so-ever. In this way avoiding the potential of wanting such gear and thus avoiding subjecting ones self to hours of torture and grief for a single piece of gear, or the slight chance you may get lucky and it pop up fast & easy.

saevel

05-27-2012, 11:41 AM

I suppose it could also help the 18-man PUGs who have trouble defeating some of the big bads. Only the popper loses weakening items, so each person in the 18-man PUG can take turns using 1 or 2 items to decrease the difficulty for all. For example, 18 rounds of Rex, 3 runs of 6 each, each person in the PUG pays 200k total for all 18 fights.

inb4 200k is big moniez....

Haha hard enough getting 18 people together for four runs, much less 18 runs. Although I guess if the items make it easy enough, lights auto-capped and procs reducing the NMs offensive power, you could do it as a shell with 12~14 people and not have to worry about filling the last few spots with /shout peoples. I've seen very few pure PUGs for rex, most involve a core group of 4~6 people who are organizing it and filling out the spots.

Demon6324236

05-27-2012, 11:57 AM

Haha hard enough getting 18 people together for four runs, much less 18 runs. Although I guess if the items make it easy enough, lights auto-capped and procs reducing the NMs offensive power, you could do it as a shell with 12~14 people and not have to worry about filling the last few spots with /shout peoples. I've seen very few pure PUGs for rex, most involve a core group of 4~6 people who are organizing it and filling out the spots.

Although I will say this is correct, I will also say people on Phoenix are getting a little more... bold... in their shouts, as there are partys for Kaggen & Qilin that have been shouting for 18(6+6+6) shouts, and even though they are back in Jeuno a hour later shouting for reps, point still stands people are trying to increase the numbers a little, with time, might just get it to happen with Kala or Rex, if people don't come for 9 kills, see its their turn, and duck out because they don't wanna pay 100~300k.

Mahoro

05-27-2012, 02:14 PM

Demon6324236

05-27-2012, 02:26 PM

The fights will be easier and faster with the weakening items. I doubt you will have much trouble convincing people even in PUGs to stay for 12+ fights when it is to their advantage to remain in a group that is committing to weaken the mob for each other. If some people leave after 6-12 runs, who cares? it isn't like you didn't derive the benefit of using the weakening items yourself on the runs the PUG stayed together for before breaking up.

Well it is kinda unfair if someone would join a Kalasutrax shout, someone gets pants & Helm, then before its their turn to pop up with the weakened items, they duck out and got everything they wanted without the weakening everyone else did for them to get it. Also you cant go with the idea of giving everyones money to 1 person because people will obviously try to scam you with it. And lastly since the person popping MUST be the person weakening it as well, this flaws many NMs, such as Aello, where pets suck to deal with without a PLD popping on spawn, but if someone else pops, things can goto hell fast.

Mahoro

05-27-2012, 03:48 PM

Demon6324236

05-27-2012, 06:06 PM

Well, people leaving in PUGs is always a risk, but there is no "waste" in this situation because the person using their own weakening items is deriving the benefit of such items for their own pop immediately. Sure, someone in a PUG could leech off that fight and Warp home after getting stuff, but whether that happens or not does not ultimately affect the popper's own investment. The popper paid his money, got his weaker NM, the ally killed it, and he got the benefit of his bargain. And in a rapidly shrinking playerbase, the leech will get a bad rep.

You couldn't give everyone's money to one person in PUG situations anyway since everyone needs to buy their own nuggets in Jugner Forest beforehand. But yes, it would be a bad idea.

Aello and the other Zilart mobs might be an issue, but if they are weakened to begin with, then I doubt the pets will remain at full strength or pose much problem to the alliance.

True, as to part 2, depending on the distance from the Vunkerl Inlet Abyssea maw... I could see it as part of the restoning time so long as you are doing 3~5 kills. If doing 6 thats the only time it would be impossible, otherwise the person could get them at the same time as restoning and it would only take 2~5 extra minutes. Also its actually Zilart, Aht, and CoP so far as I know since each of them spawn some form of pet for a few or most of the NMs. :x

MarkovChain

05-27-2012, 06:18 PM

Sanus Ensis is a badass sword

lol.

Plenitas Virga

Weilding this staff is beyond retarded.

The Adamas

Nani ¿ You have been bothering us for 3 or 4 pages with how VW items are the best in their slots lol. The basic empyrean weapon is accessible to 100% of the playerbase and is 100 times better.

Hyaline Hat is a nice FC piece, and doubles as an enfeebling piece due to the magic acc, and high INT/MND on it.

Duelist chapeau +2 or bust.

I really don't see the need to list the Abj gear, needless to say, it has its uses
All the abjurations suck.

Demon6324236

05-27-2012, 07:10 PM

A sword that has decent damage, melee stats, Req stats for if your not using Almace in favor of main healing via Sanus or Sanus/Galenus. The staff is not bad, it has low delay for a staff, and haste to make it even faster, for a MNK procing it is good. For a BLM using the new WS, it is good, did I say all BLMs should use it? No, if your doing VW, you have wings, you change your staff, use wing, go in, WS, come out, NM has less magic defense now and you sacrificed not a single nuke in doing the smart thing. The shield, well I wonder, did I add anything onto it as a stipulation on it being useful? Lets look shall we?
The Adamas is welcome to any and all PLDs who do not have an Ochain or Aegis yet, but still wish to play their PLD and play it well. Well lookie there, to PLDs without an Ochain or Aegis. Now lets look at what you say...

The basic empyrean weapon is accessible to 100% of the playerbase and is 100 times better.
Since when was it easy to make an Ochain? You want to run that by me again? Camping 50 CSs off VNMs that have 15 minute repops while the other 2 PLDs in the areas with their partys of friends and LS members try to pop it as well is easy? Fighting the Ironclads that make any of the Emp R/EX item NMs from Visions look like furry kittens, and the nice dragon that takes away everything abyssea gives you to make you really have to work to kill it. Yes, so easy, and so accessible, I'm sure everyone has one. But wait, they don't, more people have Aegis than Ochain because Aegis you have less people going after it in such a way it makes it almost impossible to get without spending weeks at it.

Duelist chapeau +2 or bust. Damn, you must know some badass WHMs BLMs & SCHs to be able to wear one of those, hell, I forgot the fast cast thats on it, because that was one of the things I talked about, the FC the hat has, when you find a Duelist Chapeau +2 with fast cast, you let me know, k?

You have been bothering us for 3 or 4 pages with how VW items are the best in their slots lol.
WAIT! Tell me when I said that anything was the best for a slot? Closest I said to that was that I think the body for Light DDs is amazing for THF with Mandau COR & RNG, or that something was good if you didn't have something else. you want to show me where I said that VW gear was the best for a slot?

Edit------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here, Ill give you one, Sanus is THE BEST main weapon for a RDM who wants to cure AND DD at the same time. Adamas is THE BEST shield in the game for fighting melee mobs if you do not have an Aegis or Ochain. Ephemeron is THE BEST TP sword in the game for using in your off hand as a sword wielder. Need I go on? Let me put it a different way, if I say something is best in any case at all, its not saying use it forever and ever as the only item that goes there. If I say its best, there are reasons, and times, when it is best, because 99% if not all gear in this game, is situational.

Byrth

05-27-2012, 10:25 PM

Mahoro

05-28-2012, 12:47 AM

True, as to part 2, depending on the distance from the Vunkerl Inlet Abyssea maw... I could see it as part of the restoning time so long as you are doing 3~5 kills. If doing 6 thats the only time it would be impossible, otherwise the person could get them at the same time as restoning and it would only take 2~5 extra minutes. Also its actually Zilart, Aht, and CoP so far as I know since each of them spawn some form of pet for a few or most of the NMs. :x

Eh? Each person needs to buy his own individual nuggets from the NPC. The NPC will only give 5 during a Conquest period. Nobody can buy nuggets for each other IIRC.

Demon6324236

05-28-2012, 05:58 AM

Eh? Each person needs to buy his own individual nuggets from the NPC. The NPC will only give 5 during a Conquest period. Nobody can buy nuggets for each other IIRC.

Ah yes I forgot about that limitation, thank you for pointing it out.

Demon6324236

05-28-2012, 06:51 AM

Drachenhorn gives slightly more attack than Twilight Helm for most of the DDs that can wear it, but it doesn't have CHR or AGI for random relic WS mods. It is generally worse than Mekira Oto +1 for STR modded WSs, even ignoring other options.
PLD, WAR, DRG, BST, SAM, and DRK use:
Requiescat (MND), Atonement (nothing), Vorpal Blade (STR), Ukko's Fury (STR), Upheaval (VIT), Drakesbane (STR), Stardiver (STR), Rampage (STR), Ruinator (STR), Kaiten/Shoha/G/Y/K (STR), Ageha (CHR), Resolution (STR), Scourge (MND/CHR), Catastrophe (AGI/INT)

So it is actually only good for two of the WSs that those jobs can use. It's not really a very good piece, but it looks cool.

I know DRKs who use Emp Scythe, which would make good use of it Quietus (STR & MND) if you use this you might also be using the Merit WS, Entropy (INT), I will admit there are not many its best for if any, but its all around a good piece for them if you dont have a +1 Mekira or want to lug around a few diffrent helms.

Sanus is pretty worthless. Again though, if you were an FFX fan it might look cool.

I doubt the fact I like FFX has anything to do with the fact I think a sword with 13% Cure potency is good. I am a RDM, I like the idea of beating shit to death with my swords of which I was ment to use. When you give me a sword like this, with STR, nice DMG, nice MND which helps both my cures, and my Req I will be using if it is in my main hand. Yeah, Im going to say its good, and Im going to use it. If you don't like it, my guess is, you either are on the RDM's don't melee side of the fence, or you don't understand the idea behind this sword being useful.

If you consider O.chain or Aegis obtainable then either is better than Adamas, but it is unclear to me that Adamas is working properly.

As I said, for if you don't have them, myself I have Almace, working on Excalibur, I have no shield because I make these for my RDM, not PLD, however my PLD can use them ofcourse, so I could get an Adamas to give me a good one, and also on that note I could get myself a Relic or Emp later on if so desired, although this would be the much easier route I would think.

Tessera Saio is a good WS piece for Exenterator, Mercy Stroke, Wild Fire, etc. with the downside that it's ugly as sin.

Last I knew looks weren't exactly a big point in any gear, as show by the fact my RDM looks like a total idiot in my melee gear due the the mix match attire that we are given.

Plenitas is a decent Meteor/Shattersoul staff.

Agreed, as was my point, and its good for blunt procing as well.

Hyaline Hat is 10% Fast Cast, but so is Nares Cap. It has some nice MAcc too, though. This is honestly one of the most useful pieces from Provenance Watcher. This would be fast cast enfeebling, where as Nares is more fast cast nuking, in either case I still think this would be easier to get than Nares for me at least being that since I have no static group for NNI I don't have the chance to get much gear from it, I would rather Nares hands just for the massive MAB.

SpankWustler

05-28-2012, 10:04 AM

I doubt the fact I like FFX has anything to do with the fact I think a sword with 13% Cure potency is good. I am a RDM, I like the idea of beating shit to death with my swords of which I was ment to use. When you give me a sword like this, with STR, nice DMG, nice MND which helps both my cures, and my Req I will be using if it is in my main hand. Yeah, Im going to say its good, and Im going to use it. If you don't like it, my guess is, you either are on the RDM's don't melee side of the fence, or you don't understand the idea behind this sword being useful.

It's not the best option for hitting stuff nor is it the best option for curing people. It's very possible to benefit more from not using Sanus Ensis if you have better options for both of those things, even if you do hit stuff with stuff while on Red Mage, by optimizing for whichever is more important at that time.

That said, I could see it being really nice for somebody who hasn't made an Almace or a Cure stick and it's the best thing a Blue Mage can macro for healing spells if that Blue Mage isn't presently hitting a thing with his or her things. I could see it being more useful than an Almace for Paladin for a situation when damage didn't matter at all, but I'm not sure if that situation ever exists.

I think the Sanus Ensis a good example of what to expect from worthwhile Voidwatch drops in general, actually. It's a very solid piece while not being the absolute best option, and it has one or two quirky uses even if a bro has the best possible thing. Generally, stuff that somebody who hasn't sunk time into getting the very best would be happy to receive randomly.

Given that randomly very acutely describes how the stuff drops, that almost makes sense except for the "I will ride a sharpened ATV made out of burning nightmares into your anus." drop rates that often make obtaining a specific thing from Voidwatch more time-consuming than just doing whatever is needed to obtain or buy the best option.

Some are a little better than that, a few are even the best possible option for whatnot, and some are noteworthy because they are incomprehensibly bad for no apparent reason; that's how I'd describe the lion's share of Voidwatch stuff that's worth describing.

saevel

05-28-2012, 05:28 PM

Sanus Ensis is a RDM's solo / low man weapon. Last I checked RDM didn't have staff skill, so using staves results in 0 melee damage. Almace / Sanus or Shikagar / Sanus (Req) are good setups, really good setups for a RDM. On anything T+ or under Req ends up doing more the CDC, though AM on CDC makes Almace a better option. Something people also forget is the cure effect received +10% on that sword, combined with its cure potency means the RDM in question is really hard to
kill.

Then again if people's idea of a RDM is a little taru in AF / relic spamming Haste / Cure IV, then yeah this sword sucks for that.

Finial thing people tend to forget is RDM is highly inventory limited. With req sharing the same gear a RDM would use for their MND enfeebling set it actually plays to RDM's strengths.

Neisan_Quetz

05-28-2012, 07:49 PM

Yes, really good setups. For doing abit less damage, and if taking damage was a concern you wouldn't be using the sword in the first place. It's pretty, but there are typically better options for the usual situations, and none of which involve getting lucky on a Prov Watcher drop.

Ultrajake

05-29-2012, 08:52 PM

What were the drops like? is it even worth it, if youre not maxing out red?

Okipuit

06-02-2012, 09:48 AM

Hey everyone,

We just wanted to inform you guys that we made some edits to the following sentences in the original [Dev1122] Voidwatch Adjustments post for clarification purposes.

*Each nugget costs 100,000 gil and players may purchase up to five of them per conquest tally.
*Void Nuggets can be stacked up to 99 and cannot be traded, sold in bazaars, sent via delivery system, or sold on the auction house.

Demon6324236

06-02-2012, 11:10 AM

Hey everyone,

We just wanted to inform you guys that we made some edits to the following sentences in the original [Dev1122] Voidwatch Adjustments post for clarification purposes.

Ok well, nice that you did that but~ I would be a little happier if you just took your ticket system, changed it to a POINT system, where I get points for wins or hell, even just give me points for the R/EX things I get that are worthless since I have them or don't give a damn about them or I already have them but you don't think they are cool enough for their own tickets... and then let me use these points to buy my R/EX shiny gear. I don't even know why you made it shiny at all, what? We want some visual flare to make us want the gear? Some gear you don't have shiny, like Rubeus, so our chances of getting those are just as well off. Just give me a point system so I'm not wasting even more hours going after my Ephemeron I will never have since I'm sure with its rarity, a ticket will be what? 20~30 mil each? Because thats what I see for a NM few do, with a super low drop rate on a sword you want people to get twice! And unless you value your VW weapons as highly as a lv95 Emp or relic, you are failing us because as it stands I estimate prices on an Ephemeron in tickets will be about as high as my Excalibur in cost. And I'm sorry to tell you, they are not THAT great...

Juilan

06-02-2012, 11:29 AM

Can we elect a new VW dev team?

Demon6324236

06-02-2012, 11:44 AM

Can we elect a new VW dev team?

I want to, I vote for a new one, and I'm guessing you do as well, so were upto 2 votes already, and they have 0, seems like a good start. :D

Kaisha

06-02-2012, 12:48 PM

So.....how about them Blue Mage trigger spells getting its list cut down by 75%?

Demon6324236

06-02-2012, 01:21 PM

So.....how about them Blue Mage trigger spells getting its list cut down by 75%?

Vote for the (hypothetical) new VW Dev team :D they want to give us better drop rates on VW gear, a point system instead of tickets, and cut BLU procs down to only 2 spells an element!

Quetzacoatl

06-02-2012, 03:41 PM

So.....how about them Blue Mage trigger spells getting its list cut down by 75%?

[Yes, Please.]

I would seriously be willing to play BLU for voidwatch if this were to happen. Right now though? Perish the thought.

Demon6324236

06-02-2012, 04:26 PM

[Yes, Please.]

I would seriously be willing to play BLU for voidwatch if this were to happen. Right now though? Perish the thought.

I do it because its honestly an easy job and most people wont do it, thus even easier to get in a party doing it.

Now, I thought about something, one of the complaints I think abyssea had alot of was brews being cheap & easy while making everything way to simple right? Well lets look at this new weakness system, to me, it seems the same in a few ways.

A brew made us gods, we were invincible, only by royally screwing something up would you die or even really get hurt. Now, look at this system, we have seen via test server that 5/5 KIs makes a NM that is normally hard to kill, a cake walk. A brew costs 200k cruor, these KIs are 100k each. 200 cruor buys 1 Chocobo Blinker, and this Blinker NPCs for 519 gil. Thus 200k cruor (brew) is equal to 519k gil. 500k gil buys all these KIs, and makes things very easy, much like how a brew made things effortless.

Its not the exact same, no, but its similar even in cost. The main thing is this thing is limited to 1 time a Conquest, past that, not much else. Past capping lights (unless this is now automatic on start) you can take them down easy I would think so long as you will pay, which is exactly what a brew did except with procing for items instead of procing for lights. If that was a major problem people had with abyssea in the end, I would think we are just coming back to it now with VW. However I could be very wrong on this, but it seems much the same to me.

detlef

06-02-2012, 06:36 PM

You guys realize that if they cut BLU spells to 1 per element, people would just not bring BLU at all?

Kysaiana

06-02-2012, 06:47 PM

You guys realize that if they cut BLU spells to 1 per element, people would just not bring BLU at all?

I think you're confused. How does making it easier to narrow down the exact spell for blu to cast (and have to set) mean people won't want to bring it anymore? It's like saying "oh, SMN only has one BP per avatar to proc now, let's not bring it anymore." People don't bring SMN to any VW that has adds, but that's another issue.

Demon6324236

06-02-2012, 06:51 PM

You guys realize that if they cut BLU spells to 1 per element, people would just not bring BLU at all?

Not sure, 8 procs are a few, not saying your wrong, your not, just most jobs you don't bring are because A:Pet dies to fast. B:Not enough procs to matter. So while 8 rather than 32 procs would be nice, it can also be bad, would have to have it happen to see.

Kaisha

06-02-2012, 08:18 PM

Gokku

06-02-2012, 08:21 PM

the biggest thing is even if they lower blu procs... you wont be going for your "omg sex" dmg... your still there to proc and thats it.

Kaisha

06-02-2012, 08:28 PM

Granted a lot our demand for lowered BLU procs might be moot come the update if the lights are auto-capped like PW/Caturae fights are.

For all we know VW may turn into a flat-out 2hand job zerg-rush and kill before the first Fanatic's wears off if that's the case.
(can't wait to see the bickering in the forums here if that does happen)

Demon6324236

06-02-2012, 08:43 PM

detlef

06-03-2012, 02:59 AM

Bard has 11 procs yet they get a hint called on almost every single pop.

Point of the matter is that red is important to the (lack of) drop rate and people like to cover all of the red triggers regardless of how many each job has to offer.
That's just how it seems to you. As I go BRD to every run, it seems to me like it's always NIN and BLU.

Remember when BLU had 2 procs per element in Abyssea? So there was a 2/8 chance of yellow proc being BLU. Once they reduced it to 1 proc per element, it was only a 1/7 chance of it being BLU. BLU became less vital as a result.

Last I checked, SE is planning to auto cap lights for regular VW in the next update, and if they follow through with that, proc jobs will become more of a luxury than a necessity for a lot of VW content. If they make it so BST only has a single proc, you would never bring a BST. If they cut BP procs to one per element, you'll probably be less inclined to bring a SMN. If they remove RDM merit spells, there's not much of a reason to bring RDM anymore. And so on. The fewer job-specific procs you have, the less likely you are to be included. That was my point.

Vortex

06-03-2012, 03:08 AM

That's just how it seems to you. As I go BRD to every run, it seems to me like it's always NIN and BLU.

Remember when BLU had 2 procs per element in Abyssea? So there was a 2/8 chance of yellow proc being BLU. Once they reduced it to 1 proc per element, it was only a 1/7 chance of it being BLU. BLU became less vital as a result.

Last I checked, SE is planning to auto cap lights for regular VW in the next update, and if they follow through with that, proc jobs will become more of a luxury than a necessity for a lot of VW content. If they make it so BST only has a single proc, you would never bring a BST. If they cut BP procs to one per element, you'll probably be less inclined to bring a SMN. If they remove RDM merit spells, there's not much of a reason to bring RDM anymore. And so on. The fewer job-specific procs you have, the less likely you are to be included. That was my point.

No one who knows what they are doing ever brings BST at all anyway, because they aren't worth the slot over just about every other job, people would just rather start the fight over if the procs are bad then waste slots on useless jobs.

if lights are auto caped they will just only bring jobs to zerg everthing down.

detlef

06-03-2012, 03:09 AM

Well then I guess bitching about procs is a moot point anyway then.

Demon6324236

06-03-2012, 04:15 AM

Depends on how much we fall back on the new weakenings, if your thinking you can zerg down Kalasutrax with just some DDs healers & buffers, but no procs, your gonna die ALOT... Now if you are talking stuff like Citys or Kaggen, might see these through without procing.

Demon6324236

06-03-2012, 11:20 PM

So thinking about how VW looks next to Abyssea. VW is just a copy in many ways.

These are almost copies of what we saw in abyssea-------------------------------------------

Abyssite=Periapt
Atma=Atmacite
Traverser Stone=Voidstone
6 Caturae needed to fight Shin=3 Petrifact fights against 6 Caturae total to fight PW
Shinryu=Provenance Watcher
Abyssite of Celerity=Periapt of Exploration
Abyssite of Avarice=Periapt of Frontiers
Lunar Abyssite=Periapt of emergence
Atma of the Apocalypse=Atmacite of Provenance

Past here things are not the same, but close--------------------------------------------------

Lights effect drops, not of which kind of chest, but its contents, just as within abyssea however it is now only 1 kind of chest, lights still effect the contents of said chest completely.

Weakness procing effects drops. Certain types of procs effect different drops. Abyssea Magic procs effected Seals & +2s, VW Magic procs effect quality of drops. WSs effected either Gear or KIs (depending on elemental or not) where as in VW they rise quantity of drops.

Weakness KIs, these are the same as brews in many ways, it makes mobs very weak by compare to you, and easy to kill, even if you may not proc it for its full drops, they also cost roughly the same, as 200k cruor is 519k gil, weakening items are 500k total, and dust is roughly 20k.

1 Traverser Stone was originally worth 30 minutes in abyssea, 1 Voidstone is used to start a VW fight that lasts upto 30 minutes. Also original time for you to get another was 20 hours for both, and with certain KIs it was lowered by 4 hours for each.

KIs can be bought with cruor and these will not drop from NMs, however there are KIs that drop from NMs only. Atma is also gotten from some NMs, but not all, many will drop both, and some will drop only one of the 2.

Both award the player with temps, abysseas temps are mainly gotten from T5 Blue chests via Azure light. VW temps are gotten from procing the NM.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is all I can think of at the moment, I feel as if I'm missing more though. It just came to mind how much VW has copied Abyssea, but changed the most important thing in abyssea. The fact Effort=Reward. I have also never seen anyone say or list the amount of similaritys between them, which is stupidly high. Now I cant even look at VW and think of it as original content that just sucks, now I get to blame the fact its the sequel to abyssea, and just didn't live up to the name of its original.

Kysaiana

06-04-2012, 07:56 AM

They forgot to copy the decent drop rates abyssea had.

Demon6324236

06-04-2012, 10:48 AM

They forgot to copy the decent drop rates abyssea had.

Yep, like I said, the main thing they changed was the Effort=Reward. Now its Luck=Reward : /

Nala

06-04-2012, 12:38 PM

More like it's tanaka trying to "Balance" the mistake of abyssea by coming out with his own sadistic version, since abyssea was such a huge mistake they had to make up for past transgressions. Don't worry they only had our best interests in mind, this is his apology for aby!~

Don't worry tanaka we forgive you..................like hell.

scaevola

06-05-2012, 01:49 AM

the biggest thing is even if they lower blu procs... you wont be going for your "omg sex" dmg... your still there to proc and thats it.

I don't think anybody's expecting anything more than that. Most of us at the mid-to-lower end of viable 99 gear understand what we're there to do, I believe, and are content to let the lifers do the heavy lifting in terms of damage.

Demon6324236

06-05-2012, 02:09 AM

I don't think anybody's expecting anything more than that. Most of us at the mid-to-lower end of viable 99 gear understand what we're there to do, I believe, and are content to let the lifers do the heavy lifting in terms of damage.

Yep, just wont feel so useless, at least we will be able to put on some support spells or something, and only need 1 worthless person standing around instead of 2.

As it stands you need to bring 2 BLUs for procs to cover them all, if setup right both BLUs can probably have Battery Charge & Plenilune Embrace, which is enough to give us some healing so the WHMs need not bother, and refresh.

If you need only 8 spells, 1 BLU can do that and have themselves more support, such as a Magic Def Bonus spell, like Saline Coat, to take off some of the nuke damage if you have Fantatics up when you go in to proc, or Animating Wail for some haste to lower recasts.

Afania

06-05-2012, 10:10 AM

Yep, just wont feel so useless, at least we will be able to put on some support spells or something, and only need 1 worthless person standing around instead of 2.

As it stands you need to bring 2 BLUs for procs to cover them all, if setup right both BLUs can probably have Battery Charge & Plenilune Embrace, which is enough to give us some healing so the WHMs need not bother, and refresh.

If you need only 8 spells, 1 BLU can do that and have themselves more support, such as a Magic Def Bonus spell, like Saline Coat, to take off some of the nuke damage if you have Fantatics up when you go in to proc, or Animating Wail for some haste to lower recasts.

It's actually less efficient to bring 2 BLU and split spell for VW unless the pt can kill the NM in less than 60 sec with 2 BLU.

2 BLU takes up extra spot which can be another 2h DD, and if you split spell you can't set DD trait, thus pt dmg output is lowered with 2 BLU.

At this point of time, every single VW is about zerging and killing it ASAP, with as much dmg as possible, getting proc is just there to recharge temp, especially fana so DDs won't die, and to cap red for drop. The faster you kill, the less HQ/EV proc is required to kill it. Majority of time pt can kill VW with capped red with just 1 BLU as long as pt has enough dmg.

You have about 3 HQ/EV up, if one of them is BLU, you can always reset(which takes 1 min), and get the other 2 HQ/EV. Then after 1 min timer is up, the previous HQ/EV fana is about to wear too. Even if all 3 are BLU, you still have 1 min to reset and should be just fine since DDs won't die until fana wears. If pt has enough dmg, it only need 1 EV or 2 HQ to kill one NM+ cap red.

So pop NM+fana----(1 min)----- proc EV, pop fana again-------NM dead or

pop NM+fana----(1 min)----proc HQ and pop fana again------(1 min)------proc HQ and pop fana again-------NM dead

You're just slowed down your killing speed with 2 BLU split spell when 99% of time NM will be killed with capped red with just 1 BLU. Out of all the VW I've done(I've done a lot of VW), there's only once in my life that NM died before red capped because of spell reset, since DD noticed red isn't capped until HP at 1%, and one nuke happened to killed it. Other times you can also just wait a bit for spell reset if red uncapped.

Unless it's lower tier VW which dies in 30 sec after red capped, 2 BLU split spell just slow down the killing speed, and quite dangerous on higher tier VW when dmg is very important. A lot of provenance pt don't bring proc jobs like BLU NIN DRG SMN SAM to Provenance anymore, when you can win with just embrava zerg and 0 proc.

Also besides proc, BLU should be melee/WSing like other melee jobs, as many of the spells are fairly useless to cast in VW. Refresh isn't needed in VW with temps, so does healing magic unless you're holding adds or something. Most of the VW I don't set refresh/healing magic and just rely on temps. Just swap to MDT/PDT- set if needed.

Demon6324236

06-05-2012, 12:57 PM

It's actually less efficient to bring 2 BLU and split spell for VW unless the pt can kill the NM in less than 60 sec with 2 BLU.

2 BLU takes up extra spot which can be another 2h DD, and if you split spell you can't set DD trait, thus pt dmg output is lowered with 2 BLU.

At this point of time, every single VW is about zerging and killing it ASAP, with as much dmg as possible, getting proc is just there to recharge temp, especially fana so DDs won't die, and to cap red for drop. The faster you kill, the less HQ/EV proc is required to kill it. Majority of time pt can kill VW with capped red with just 1 BLU as long as pt has enough dmg.

You have about 3 HQ/EV up, if one of them is BLU, you can always reset(which takes 1 min), and get the other 2 HQ/EV. Then after 1 min timer is up, the previous HQ/EV fana is about to wear too. Even if all 3 are BLU, you still have 1 min to reset and should be just fine since DDs won't die until fana wears. If pt has enough dmg, it only need 1 EV or 2 HQ to kill one NM+ cap red.

So pop NM+fana----(1 min)----- proc EV, pop fana again-------NM dead or

pop NM+fana----(1 min)----proc HQ and pop fana again------(1 min)------proc HQ and pop fana again-------NM dead

You're just slowed down your killing speed with 2 BLU split spell when 99% of time NM will be killed with capped red with just 1 BLU. Out of all the VW I've done(I've done a lot of VW), there's only once in my life that NM died before red capped because of spell reset, since DD noticed red isn't capped until HP at 1%, and one nuke happened to killed it. Other times you can also just wait a bit for spell reset if red uncapped.

Unless it's lower tier VW which dies in 30 sec after red capped, 2 BLU split spell just slow down the killing speed, and quite dangerous on higher tier VW when dmg is very important. A lot of provenance pt don't bring proc jobs like BLU NIN DRG SMN SAM to Provenance anymore, when you can win with just embrava zerg and 0 proc.

Also besides proc, BLU should be melee/WSing like other melee jobs, as many of the spells are fairly useless to cast in VW. Refresh isn't needed in VW with temps, so does healing magic unless you're holding adds or something. Most of the VW I don't set refresh/healing magic and just rely on temps. Just swap to MDT/PDT- set if needed.

Higher up VW I have always seen losses when people cannot keep the NM staggered. Namely being the Harpy & Kalasutrax, 2 BLUs help keep it staggered, and DD is good but I myself rather the idea of keeping the mob quickly proced instead of having a lil more damage on it. As for BLU meleeing & WSing, I don't melee, but I will go WS every time Monarchs/Wings give me TP to CDC it, while I have Bravers up all the time anyways and its not hard to pop on a Stalwarts. Healing/Refresh spells are incase procs stop for whatever reason, be it that they are mainly pet procs, or just people being slow/resisted, but it can help, I have saved a few mages or even a PLD when fighting mobs because I had Plen set and temps were running out. Also less time using temps=more time casting spells to proc, since BLU is normally put in the mage party, we can refresh jobs which do not have refresh via sub and let them get off more spells before needing to worry about their MP.

saevel

06-05-2012, 07:59 PM

2 BLU takes up extra spot which can be another 2h DD, and if you split spell you can't set DD trait, thus pt dmg output is lowered with 2 BLU.

No .. just no.

Both BLU's go into the mage pt with the 2 BLMs and Ninja. That leaves two slots for RNG / whatever you toss into it.

DD parties are

BRD
WHM
COR
DD (SAM / WAR / DRK / MNK / maybe RNG)
DD (SAM / WAR / DRK / MNK / maybe RNG)
DD (SAM / WAR / DRK / MNK / maybe RNG)

Try to have a DRK in each DD PT for enhanced chaos roll, otherwise try to have at least one of each of those jobs with RNG being a toss up depending on where your slots are and if their good or not.

Afania

06-05-2012, 08:41 PM

No .. just no.

Both BLU's go into the mage pt with the 2 BLMs and Ninja. That leaves two slots for RNG / whatever you toss into it.

DD parties are

BRD
WHM
COR
DD (SAM / WAR / DRK / MNK / maybe RNG)
DD (SAM / WAR / DRK / MNK / maybe RNG)
DD (SAM / WAR / DRK / MNK / maybe RNG)

Try to have a DRK in each DD PT for enhanced chaos roll, otherwise try to have at least one of each of those jobs with RNG being a toss up depending on where your slots are and if their good or not.

Do you even understand what I'm talking about - -?

You only have 18 spot, when you take 2 BLU you're going to use less 2h DD because that extra BLU is taking up extra spot. Using 1 BLU gets extra spot so you can toss another DD job, or a PLD to hold NM in case proc is bad. That's what I really mean. Mage pt or not, your spot is limited.

Majority of time if proc is bad, it's usually not because of BLU proc just saying. And you only need 1~2 proc if dmg is good anyways.

saevel

06-06-2012, 08:53 AM

Do you even understand what I'm talking about - -?

You only have 18 spot, when you take 2 BLU you're going to use less 2h DD because that extra BLU is taking up extra spot. Using 1 BLU gets extra spot so you can toss another DD job, or a PLD to hold NM in case proc is bad. That's what I really mean. Mage pt or not, your spot is limited.

Majority of time if proc is bad, it's usually not because of BLU proc just saying. And you only need 1~2 proc if dmg is good anyways.

You have a learning disorder don't you? It's ok I'm not judging, just means I gotta go over this slowly.

You have three parties, two are dedicated to your melee DD damage, mostly 2H's. The third party is dedicated to BLMs and other "proc" jobs that are not getting super buffed. BLU's go into this third party, along with NIN's, THF's, SMN's and possibly RNG's. You have six slots in this party, two of which will be filled by BLMs. None of these spots will be filled by a DD as they'll just end up getting killed and contribute pitiful damage without those double BRD + COR buffs.

BLM
BLM
NIN
spot
spot
spot

That leaves three empty slots, one of which is traditionally a BLU.

BLM
BLM
NIN
BLU
spot
spot

The last two are usually filled with THF / RNG / SMN or whatever else you can pickup from /sh's. You can also put in a third BLM or a RDM / SCH for faster magic procs. This reasoning works for BLU's, put in another BLU and you get faster magic procs, neither BLU is expected to deal anywhere near the damage of the DD's (though they should still be trying to contribute something).

This gets you

BLM
BLM
NIN
BLU
BLU
spot

That last spot is for a RNG (if their not in the DD party) SCH or whatever else you can find for it.

I hope this illustrates how a BLU, will never be competing with "2H DD" for melee spots. Bringing 2 BLU's does not reduce your damage in the slightest, unless possibly on Rex / Bismark where you need lots of magic damage and thus a third BLM / SCH or additional WF COR.

Total alliance makeup looks something like.

WHM
BRD
COR
DRK
WAR
SAM

WHM
BRD
COR
DRK
MNK
DRG

BLM
BLM
BLU
BLU
NIN
RNG (or anything else)

Afania

06-08-2012, 09:48 PM

You have a learning disorder don't you? It's ok I'm not judging, just means I gotta go over this slowly.

You have three parties, two are dedicated to your melee DD damage, mostly 2H's. The third party is dedicated to BLMs and other "proc" jobs that are not getting super buffed. BLU's go into this third party, along with NIN's, THF's, SMN's and possibly RNG's. You have six slots in this party, two of which will be filled by BLMs. None of these spots will be filled by a DD as they'll just end up getting killed and contribute pitiful damage without those double BRD + COR buffs.

BLM
BLM
NIN
spot
spot
spot

That leaves three empty slots, one of which is traditionally a BLU.

BLM
BLM
NIN
BLU
spot
spot

The last two are usually filled with THF / RNG / SMN or whatever else you can pickup from /sh's. You can also put in a third BLM or a RDM / SCH for faster magic procs. This reasoning works for BLU's, put in another BLU and you get faster magic procs, neither BLU is expected to deal anywhere near the damage of the DD's (though they should still be trying to contribute something).

This gets you

BLM
BLM
NIN
BLU
BLU
spot

That last spot is for a RNG (if their not in the DD party) SCH or whatever else you can find for it.

I hope this illustrates how a BLU, will never be competing with "2H DD" for melee spots. Bringing 2 BLU's does not reduce your damage in the slightest, unless possibly on Rex / Bismark where you need lots of magic damage and thus a third BLM / SCH or additional WF COR.

Total alliance makeup looks something like.

WHM
BRD
COR
DRK
WAR
SAM

WHM
BRD
COR
DRK
MNK
DRG

BLM
BLM
BLU
BLU
NIN
RNG (or anything else)

There's no need to put WHM in same pt as DD pt, you're the one who doesn't get it. WHM can go to mage pt and fit in extra DD in DD pt, I've yet to encounter any WHM have problem healing DDs outside of DD pt. 3x DD in DD pt always kills faster than 4x DD in DD pt, NM will be dead before you know it.

Or just toss DRG to mage pt and fit in another 2h DD, unless that DRG is mythic DRG it's dmg isn't going to be compareable to DRK WAR MNK SAM.

2x BLU is just making pt kill slower, especially on higher tier VW, it's fact.

Also you completely underestimate BLU's dmg difference between playing aggressively(set DD job trait) and sit back and proc whore(fill entire spell list with nothing but proc spells) on T3 VW. I'm not saying it will beat a properly geared WAR MNK DRK SAM, doesn't mean you should just sit back and proc whore and not contributing. I beat many random pick up WAR MNK DRK SAM on BLU without COR and BRD buff many times, having 2 BLU set nothing but proc spell just gimp entire ally's dmg, period. Only worth it on weaker VW if your ally is full of elite DDs and killing speed isn't an issue.

In fact for provenance run I tend to only use 1 WHM in entire ally and sometimes even 1 empy BRD if there's embrava mule to sqeeze out extra DD spot.

Demon6324236

06-08-2012, 09:57 PM

Afania

06-08-2012, 10:22 PM

Last I knew you couldn't curaga people in other partys, which means sleepga sucks for your DDs. High end VW needs constant procs, I would rather kill slower and have my extra BLU incase there is a proc for it so I can keep the NM proced and it doesn't rape my party.

As far as I know, using healing mist(AOE cure item) can wake everyone up, so you technically only need to wake 1 person up and have him pop temp. Even if you need to wake each person up one by one, the extra DD in DD pt still outweight the benefit of curaga. Not every NM spams AoE sleep, and even if they do AoE sleep they often sleep 1~2 times max each fight, which isn't that terrible.

As for "higher tier VW needs constant procs", you have about 1 min to proc each HQ/EV before temp wear, if you stuck on proc, it's usually not BLU. But if pt kill slower, it has higher chance to wipe or stuck on proc. Kill it faster is the best way to prevent wiping, if the pt can kill VW in 1.5 min~2 min, then you only need 1 proc to win, you don't need "constant procs" at all, you only need 1~2 HQ to recharge temps. Many NA PUG rex/provenance or even T6 pt wipe on my server, the main reason is no other but not enough dmg, and /shout leader tend to focus on filling up every proc, thinking killing slower is ok as long as every NQ HQ EV is proced, but the fact is it's not. Your DDs need to be elite tier DD if you want to bring that many BLU for proc, majority of PUG pt, you just ended up killing slower while both BLU won't contribute much most of the time.

As I previously mentioned, pop NM+ fana, zerg, proc and recharge fana, pop fana again, NM dead. If NM requires more than 2 fana to kill, then you're killing too slow and need more DDs.

Demon6324236

06-08-2012, 11:54 PM

As far as I know, using healing mist(AOE cure item) can wake everyone up, so you technically only need to wake 1 person up and have him pop temp. Even if you need to wake each person up one by one, the extra DD in DD pt still outweight the benefit of curaga. Not every NM spams AoE sleep, and even if they do AoE sleep they often sleep 1~2 times max each fight, which isn't that terrible.

As for "higher tier VW needs constant procs", you have about 1 min to proc each HQ/EV before temp wear, if you stuck on proc, it's usually not BLU. But if pt kill slower, it has higher chance to wipe or stuck on proc. Kill it faster is the best way to prevent wiping, if the pt can kill VW in 1.5 min~2 min, then you only need 1 proc to win, you don't need "constant procs" at all, you only need 1~2 HQ to recharge temps. Many NA PUG rex/provenance or even T6 pt wipe on my server, the main reason is no other but not enough dmg, and /shout leader tend to focus on filling up every proc, thinking killing slower is ok as long as every NQ HQ EV is proced, but the fact is it's not. Your DDs need to be elite tier DD if you want to bring that many BLU for proc, majority of PUG pt, you just ended up killing slower while both BLU won't contribute much most of the time.

As I previously mentioned, pop NM+ fana, zerg, proc and recharge fana, pop fana again, NM dead. If NM requires more than 2 fana to kill, then you're killing too slow and need more DDs.

Well apparently every party for Kalasutrax I have ever been in we killed much to slow because only on maybe 3 out of my 30~40 fights with him did we actually kill it in that short of time, and those fights, it was proced 90% of the time, any time I have ever seen it go unproced for more than 30 seconds~a minute or so, party wipes, harpy seemed the same, wouldn't know much though not alot of experience with her.

Byrth

06-09-2012, 12:43 AM

It depends very much on how good your players/DDs are. Kala is particularly hard because he dispels everything if you don't keep him proc-locked and takes reduced damage under the same conditions.

saevel

06-09-2012, 05:44 AM

saevel

06-09-2012, 05:47 AM

It depends very much on how good your players/DDs are. Kala is particularly hard because he dispels everything if you don't keep him proc-locked and takes reduced damage under the same conditions.

We found double tomahawks (2 WAR) does amazing for keeping your damage going. The moment the bastard gets off a stance, Hawk him. Once that wears hawk him again (2nd WAR), assuming he's still alive. In a good run you should never have to hawk him more then twice.

Afania

06-09-2012, 06:57 PM

Afania has next to zero experience leading VW runs. To even suggest not having a WHM in your primary DD parties... that's like suggesting not doing BRD swaps. Procs are not instant, especially if you get WS procs instead of BLM nuke procs / JA procs, there will be times when the NM isn't proced and spamming their aoes of death and woe. When that happens you absolutely want WHMs for Curaga III~IV spam. NMs light off aoe spells, you want Curaga for that.

6 heavy DD's, double BRD swaps with a COR for each PT and a WHM to keep em alive. That's the standard setup with minor tweaks based on the NM and specific strategy's. Stuff like bringing a SCH for embrava, or extra BLMs for magic damage / stuns. We try to bring a DRK in each PT to give Chaos a 10% boost. At no time does a BLU compete with a heavy DD for a pt slot, BLUs are in the proc party, heavy DD's are in one of the DD parties. Without those double BRD + COR buffs a heavy DD won't be doing sh!t for damage in the BLM party. There is a reason it's called the "mage" or "proc" party.

You're the one who doesn't understand how VW works. Barring some annoying VWNM, majority of time you don't need WHM in DD pt, they can heal just fine outside of DD pt, period. And I'm not the one saying this, several WHM specifically told me they can cure just fine outside of pt, and proved it to me, all you need to do is to set up the priority and have them cure right ppl.
And there are items called fanatic and screens, or holy water/poison powder etc, or the DD you pt with doesn't know how to pop them? Also annoying AoE like Ocythoe move can be stunned if you bring SCH/BLM. Having 1 extra buffed DD in ally greatly outweight the benefit of putting WHM in DD pt since it's not needed and they can cure fine in other pt.

And I NEVER argue about putting BLU in DD pt over 2h melees. I was arguing about having 2 BLU set nothing but proc spell just makes pt kill slower when 1 BLU is enough to get the job done, and doesn't have much benefit on majority of VW unless your pt can kill VW in 1 min. Again, having 1 extra DD in ally greatly outweight the benefit of getting 2 BLU doing nothing except waiting for proc to be called.

And you don't seem to understand what I mean by BRD, if you have embrava, your magic haste is capped. And empy BRD can sing 3~4 songs, so you only need 1 in ally if you rotate pt in provenance, and gets extra spot for another DD for more dmg, is that so hard to understand?

Honestly though, having 1 min BLU spell reset isn't big deal at all, ppl often overestimate the importance of getting proc done ASAP and effectiveness of having 2 BLU in pt for the sake of proc lock, majority of NM you don't need to proc lock, and often less effective to proc without timing, and if you really do need to proc lock, you still have other NQ EV HQ to do, that sacrificing extra slot for lower dmg in ally just makes it less effective.

For example, check out this random Ig-Alima vid on youtube: www.youtube.com/watch?=zAs_YsZALAs

This pt setup isn't the best(pt has 2 PLD, which could be replace with 2 DD), and kinda slowed down the killing speed. The first HQ come in 0:53, 2 more random NQ, then last HQ come in 2:16. If pt has 2 DD instead of 2 PLD, the 2nd HQ proc isn't needed at all and NM can be killed with just 1 HQ proc.

This apply to every VW, for example rex. You pop NM, pop fana and zerg, get HQ hint, NM will 2hr at 70%, you pop fool for 2hr, you have over 1 min to reset spell before DDs(let it be melee burn or mage burn) run out of fana/fool. That's enough time to reset your spell. You proc HQ during 2hr, DDs pop fana again and finish it. Taking 2 BLU over 1 just makes the pt kill slower, and may ended up needing 2nd HQ proc to finish it. Ideally VW should be dead with 1 fana recharge(1 HQ/EV proc), or 2 at best. If pt needs more than 3 HQ/EV proc to drop it's HP from 100% to 0, then the pt is lacking dmg and just increase the chance to wipe. You have 3 HQ/EV proc up at once, the chance that you're stucked with BLU is very small,

Also saying I have 0 experience in VW is pretty dumb, I joined many other PUG VW pt, and made a lot of PUG VW pt myself, and often kill harder VW such as rex or proveanance in 2~3 min. Those pt who put WHM in same pt as DD, or take 2x BLU and split spell and made them do nothing except spamming spell are often the slowest PUG pt with highest chance to wipe. The pt with highest success rate is pt that can kill VWNM in 1.5min~2 min, any longer just requires additional EV/HQ proc to stay alive and higher chance to wipe. I'm not the only one that puts WHM outside of VW pt and only take 1 BLU, plenty of other LS/PUG does it, and their pt also often kill faster with lower chance to wipe. I'm also not the only one arguing about BLU shouldn't gimp themselves and split spell and do nothing. 98% of time if pt has problem with proc speed, it's often WS proc because ppl doing same WS and not organized. Having 2 BLU isn't worth it on majority of VW, unless you're killing too fast, that's just the way it goes. I've done many VW pt with WHM cure outside of DD pt, and only 1 BLU, NM dead in 1.5~2 min, and WHM cured just fine if your DD knows how to pop fana, why do you need WHM in same pt? Or should I post a vid of WHM curing outside of DD pt to prove to you that WHM doesn't need to be in same pt to keep DDs alive if they know how to pop temp?

Zerich

06-10-2012, 08:58 AM

To even suggest not having a WHM in your primary DD parties... that's like suggesting not doing BRD swaps. Procs are not instant, especially if you get WS procs instead of BLM nuke procs / JA procs, there will be times when the NM isn't proced and spamming their aoes of death and woe. When that happens you absolutely want WHMs for Curaga III~IV spam. NMs light off aoe spells, you want Curaga for that.

sounds like you have some gimpy whms and dd's

saevel

06-10-2012, 01:53 PM

sounds like you have some gimpy whms and dd's

Yeah so that's the plan huh. Can't argue so you start with unspecified insults.

Scuttle back to your rock.

Fupafighter

06-13-2012, 04:51 PM

You gotta remember some people can't get the brd's and cor's that you always seem to have. SOme people would just rather go with 1 brd 1 cor or 2 cor 1 brd usually from my experience than sit in jeuno for 45 waiting for a reply.

saevel

06-13-2012, 07:00 PM

For lessors or just clearing wins we constantly go with 1 cor 1 brd setups. Usually 11~12 members, sometimes less.

Those BRDs and CORs didn't magically appear, everyone of our members are required to level and gear at least one support job (I have WHM and RDM). This way we can always get the required jobs from our own ranks and only have to invite the minimum from /sh. I know abyssea might have messed with everyone's heads, but FFXI is and has always been about how much support you can give your melees.

You want at least one PT with

Heavy DD
Heavy DD
Heavy DD
BRD
COR
WHM

If your alliance only has 1 BRD then you can have that BRD rotate between the two DD parties to sing their buffs, other party won't be as buffed but songs are better then no songs. Having a WHM outside the DD parties is dumb, they are there to keep your melee's alive and provide support and their primary means of doing so doesn't work outside of party. Curaga III - IV are godly.

The proc party's, aka mage party, job is to focus on hitting procs, this is why we have at least 2 BLMs (or BLM + RDM / SCH). Dealing damage is a secondary concern but it still something they should be doing (BLU, NIN's possibly RNGs).

Fupafighter

06-20-2012, 04:38 PM

I can never understand in my VW shouts why they don't rotate the brd we do have lol. It's not hard. But if I suggest it, I'll get yelled at and called a noob, while I'm usually the groups best DD lol.

saevel

06-20-2012, 05:34 PM

Well to be fair, our perma BRD recently got his 99 Daurdabla. Only got 1 WF COR though, and their not always available. Got three members working on WF during their spare time. Got three good WHMs, and each has SCH leveled / geared and typically another job to go with it.

The key is for people to be versatile with multiple jobs that are actually geared and not just aby burned wearing minimal gear. You can then reconfigure your groups based on the event your doing.

Fupafighter

06-21-2012, 05:17 PM

saevel

06-21-2012, 07:09 PM

You're basing your setups on LS, and then w.e pickups you don't have filled in. We based ours off the idea that our groups are all pickup. Not easy to make great setup groups given the fact that most people that join the shouts aren't willing to wait 2 hours to get that extra brd or cor. They would rather just kill with a mediocre setup.

I did plenty of runs prior to the LS reforming. PUG's suck in general, never know if your getting a good player or someone with an Ukon whiffing at 55% accuracy. What you do notice is that the same people tend to form the groups and over time everyone gets to know who the decent / good players are and who the scrubs are.

And your not going to pull wins out of the harder fights with mediocre setups, not without getting lucky on procs anyhow. The T6's (Bismark / Morta included) require a high amount of offensive power to kill before they destroy you. No matter how good / lucky you are at hitting procs, eventually they'll start to become stuff like HV BST Pet / SMN / PUP / DNC / Dark BLM and other things that you might not have covered or even be able to land. Once one HV becomes locked your chances of restoring Fanatics starts to go down and once fanatics is gone it's only a matter of time until the NM kills off all your DD's then starts on the back line. If it's not dead before this happens then it's a wipe. That's why I insist on at least one party being

Heavy DD x 3
COR
BRD
WHM

And to rotate the single BRD if there isn't a second one. The faster you kill it the lower the number of procs you need to hit and the shorter time it's got to do uber moves of death and carnage.