Leeching in video games. Good or bad?

[Rosina]

Figure its time for a friendly debate about this, since "Leeching" is working its way into end game.
All i ask is keep your opinions clean of insults.

As most know I dislike leeching. Now this is the art of leeching, I do not hate the players who leech. I find that it is rude to leech because your not contributing in earning the exp, or items you obtain. Your lack of effort makes other work harder then they might want to on a video game they use for relaxation. In the early days of ffxi you got kicked, insulted, had insulting shouts made about you for leeching. Heck go away for 5 min longer then stated you would get people insulting you left and right.

In my personal experience, both past and present, leeching is bad. I seen alliences go from insane exp rates to trickling exp because 30-50% of the party stop fighting/contributing. It does suck joining an aby pt and due to leeching mages.. get no TE. What i'm looking for is proof of leeching being good? How it is helping ffxi?

[Arcon]

Again, you're talking about an issue that doesn't really exist. It's been a long time since I've seen anyone leech in a Dom Ops party, or any regular EXP party, and the people who do are usually promtply kicked.

What people say when they mean "leeching" is paying for a FC, or hold KI or keywhore. All of those things aren't actually leeching, because you are contributing in some way. It isn't "free EXP", you have to do something for the people who are fighting. That is what almost everyone does and it's the currently accepted standard for leveling your jobs in the endgame scene. Simply being afk during a regular party will just result in a kick. No one is arguing that that kind of leeching is bad. If you expect someone to reply to that you're wasting your time.

[Draylo]

Martello in Altepa, go!

[Shadowsong]

Your lack of effort makes other work harder then they might want to on a video game they use for relaxation. In the early days of ffxi you got kicked, insulted, had insulting shouts made about you for leeching. Heck go away for 5 min longer then stated you would get people insulting you left and right.

In my personal experience, both past and present, leeching is bad. I seen alliences go from insane exp rates to trickling exp because 30-50% of the party stop fighting/contributing. It does suck joining an aby pt and due to leeching mages.. get no TE. What i'm looking for is proof of leeching being good? How it is helping ffxi?

The main problem I see you have with the new system is you still consider EXPing as content. Myself, my friends, my linkshell, and people I've talked to all hate EXPing. Exping is the obstacle between you and fun, it's not the fun itself. If i can help someone get a job passed the uselessness, and maybe in the future they can do the same with me, all the power to us. Anything I can do to help others get to 99 and therefore useful, I will.
Once you realize we do not find EXPing fun, you will realize why we wish to get through it as soon as possible, and dont mind helping others do the same.

TL;DR- If people found leeching to be rude, no one would let people do it. They do, so who cares?

edit: I know you are going to bring up "people not learning their jobs" so heres my retort to that: Not a single aspect of this game takes longer than 20 minutes to become a pro at. Not a single thing. An infant could play this game

[Rosina]

Well Acron my recent experience prroves otherwise. I seen tons of ppl afk in the wall of aby worm party. Thats the only leeching I hate, is afk leeching. I don't care if ppl keywhore, or hold KI, or pop items. I've done that. And trust me people let afk'ers leech including the japanese. I found this out 2 days ago when I passed out from a my cold and sleeped for 5 hours and was still in the party when I woke up. And tbh I only made this topic to let people insult me here so not to ruin other people threads over a comment or two I might make.

You gotta admit though. Insulting a person with something that has no subject in the debate is pretty silly. What does my gear... lack of gear swaping as anything to do with leeching?

Personally speaking can't wait for legion. I seen several video and people just try and zerg the mobs. Then a few complained over the fact they got charmed and want SE to remove charm from those hnms. It sorta made me laugh considering alot of hnm still charm and there are ways around it.

[Shadowsong]

And you insulting how we play in every single post you write makes you what? Devil's Advocate? Please...

[Rosina]

Shadowsong your assuming too much about my opinion, and being rude about it. I never thought of exp as content like questing or endgame. In a sence it is content in the basic term of things as it is a part of the game. I care because I get effected by it, my exp is slower my death is at a high risk because i'm doing the work of many. Add to the fact I just want to play, have fun, and relax because my home life is BS. So pretty much slow exp rates, high death counts losing more then gaining. Ya it can stress a person out who is already stressed out. Full allience of 18, exp rate is 10x faster then if 8 of those 10 are afk. People only level job now a days for procing... which is a bit weird since only 2 events have procing. Abyssea, dynamis. With legion coming out, it looks like you can't proc (based on videos i saw) So what are people going to do? What I see is everyone will cry for nerfing the content. Infact they already are.. video I saw people want SE to remove charm from the hnm.

[Rosina]

And you insulting how we play in every single post you write makes you what? Devil's Advocate? Please...

how so? And i say you suck? no. I just said leeching... is rude. That is leechING not leechER. Plus leeching isn't a play style... you would have to be playing the game for it to be a PLAY style. Leeching isn't playing, just being afk while others play.

If me saying leeching is bad and rude... and you find that an insult. What does that make you? And every single post... please. If agreeing to removal of time in abyssea is an insult to you them wow.
if mentioning exp rate increase is an insult to you just WoW.

I suggest you look up the word as you so far have done more insults then I have. Like saying i was a pink gear dnc. REALLY.... a character I no longer play.... might i add. What is this high school? I'm not waring the in fasion there for I automatically suck?
Ask questions because making an ((donkey)) out of urself.

[Bled]

how so? And i say you suck? no. I just said leeching... is rude. That is leechING not leechER. Plus leeching isn't a play style... you would have to be playing the game for it to be a PLAY style. Leeching isn't playing, just being afk while others play.

Sooo let me get this straight coming from this statement you made:

I just said leeching... is rude. That is leechING not leechER.

If the act of leeching is rude how would that not make the person committing the act not accountable or rude? is this hate the game not the player kind of thinking? because if that is what your saying, that just stagnates a games community...

[Rosina]

Just a bit of back story for you guys so you can be in the know.

1. i have leeched befor due to sickness, in most i try to ask. Out of my pov of it being a waste of other peoples time and energy.

2 I no longer play as Rosina, and haven't for a year. Infact my last highest character was Darkfae. Darkfaes last gear set was spry vest, charis hands, hakka hachimaki (aka the +staff one) charis legs charis feet+1 double venrus daggers Charis feather. I forget what else. Atma I used was strongarm and sea daughter. I subed /thf for the heck of it. And i solo'ed khalamari and gangly gean for kicks. I pvp'ed with as a 90 dnc vs a 95 pup who mastered the job, but still held my own.
(i fight this guy on sc4 and scv he is a master)

3 i'm a ps2 us launch veteran. With having my first year have ultra limited game play (2-4 hours a day).

4 yes I did gear swap in the past, even with the best gear i could get and still never saw a point other then just it taking up inventory space.

[Rosina]

@ Bled
The person in question may not be a rude individual, lazy but not rude. If you "butt hurt" over being called lazy. Do something about it.

I think you guys just grasping at straws to try and discredit me instead of actually using your brains to come up with a good reason.
If you see leeching a good thing prove it. Simple.
Not a hard thing to do. Show proof and personal experience how leeching is helping ffxi become a better game for the players?

example of what i meant:
That old show parking wars. People hate the parking authority, but can't really hate the people who work for them. Because that induvidual isn't personaly out to get you.

As i stated I do not hate leechers. If you lot wanna be lazy fine by me. I can't fault you for being lazy because your not saying "i'm gonna leech to skrew over rosina *dr evil laugh*" The art of leeching, does make progression harder, it does waste my time and effort. Hence the rude factor.

[Arcon]

I think you guys just grasping at straws to try and discredit me instead of actually using your brains to come up with a good reason.
If you see leeching a good thing prove it. Simple.

Don't need to grasp at straws to discredit you, since you're making it exceedingly easy. You just don't get it. No one said leeching is good. You're arguing against literally no one. This thread is pointless. When we say leeching we don't mean what you mean. We mean people "not fighting", but generally doing something else to compensate. What else is there to clear up?

[Vold]

People who intentionally and quietly AFK during a group to leech exp is bad. If you see it then inform your leader because I guarantee you there's little chance they will even know what's going on because they are constantly not enjoying the game with all the /sea going on. Everything else beyond that is something to be pointlessly mad about. There's key leechers and FC leechers who pay and this and that and everything and you need to AFK for 10 minutes and they need to AFK for 10 minutes you take some and you give some and so on.

If not for leeching there would be a lot less people doing the exp thing these days if they could not pick up a job and take it to cap within a week(I don't want to hear the whole preaching of 1-99 in one day shit, when someone can pull it off let me know and I'll reward you with the My Life Eff'n Sucks trophy) Best case for most people is going to be about a week, average 2 weeks, and never if you're scared to push for leech exp.

So, if not for fast exp creating interest in playing new jobs people would find groups a lot less often, merit rush aside. This would be the "good" thing about leeching. If you're really anal about it then you can solo your exp which is incredibly superior to solo exp outside Abyssea. If you can't accept that because the exp is oh so lower then I'm sorry but it sounds like a personal problem to me. Your only option is to lead and make it clear to everyone before you head out or during shouts that AFK leeching is not welcomed.

If you're not willing to lead an alliance of exp.... - extremely long epic pause - .....then you have no right whatsoever on this Earth to bitch about leechers if you refuse to do something about them. Whoever "you" may happen to be.

[Tamoa]

2 I no longer play as Rosina, and haven't for a year. Infact my last highest character was Darkfae. Darkfaes last gear set was spry vest, charis hands, hakka hachimaki (aka the +staff one) charis legs charis feet+1 double venrus daggers Charis feather. I forget what else. Atma I used was strongarm and sea daughter.

You tell us this of your own free will and wonder why people laugh at you?



4 yes I did gear swap in the past, even with the best gear i could get and still never saw a point other then just it taking up inventory space.

Proves you have no clue whatsoever about basic game mechanics, and that the best gear you could get was most likely pretty shitty.



People only level job now a days for procing... which is a bit weird since only 2 events have procing. Abyssea, dynamis.

Wrong. Ever heard of Voidwatch?




Personally speaking can't wait for legion. I seen several video and people just try and zerg the mobs. Then a few complained over the fact they got charmed and want SE to remove charm from those hnms. It sorta made me laugh considering alot of hnm still charm and there are ways around it.


With legion coming out, it looks like you can't proc (based on videos i saw) So what are people going to do? What I see is everyone will cry for nerfing the content. Infact they already are.. video I saw people want SE to remove charm from the hnm.

Judging by everything you have ever told us on this forum about your "playstyle", I can only say this:

If you ever get invited to a Legion run you will be the exact thing you detest and call rude: you will be a leech. If you don't understand what I mean by that statement, I'm sure someone else can explain it to you.

[wish12oz]

Not this crap again................

EDIT: Also, people have always sucked and been leeches. I can't tell you how many bad LS's I was in (for a short period of time) where people were just horrible. Ever see an aegis PLD during 75 cap who couldnt hold hate at all? I saw 10+ at 75 cap, whats more leechful then that?

[Siiri]

I personally don't care how people get their jobs to 99 it doesn't matter to me. The leeching I don't like is bad players in events not gear swapping, not capping haste , not having equipment sets, the fact that I usually have to come whm because most white mages are abyssea burned and absolutely suck at real events, etc etc.

Even though my DDs are fully equipped with different sets etc, I have to come whm while the DD who "doesn't think gear swaps matter" comes DD because he can't heal. I spend my time in voidwatch with fully capped atmacites etc, then have a bunch of people in the alliance who try to leech the win without any effort.

So I like many others, consider you a leech if you don't have a basic understanding of your equipment, haste, gear swaps, and fully capped skills.

[Alhanelem]

The first time I leveled up a job, it was fun and exciting to reach a new level of power and unlock that next ability. The second time it was still, though not quite as much. After that, EXP is just a grind and a hassle. I want to beat bosses and enjoy story more than I want to kill 3000 worms.

I totally agree with the sentiment (after the first few times) that the EXP is just the barrier between you and the fun stuff.


If the act of leeching is rude how would that not make the person committing the act not accountable or rude? I believe the distinction being made here is this: "leeching" meaning someone who didn't join and wasn't specifically invited to leech that fights for a while, then goes AFK and never comes back. "Leecher" meaning someone who was specifically invited to and allowed to leech.

[SpankWustler]

As has already been said, you seem to be confusing people who stealthily hide in a martello while painstakingly constructing a delicious sandwich with people who provide keys or gil to justify their place in an alliance.


Darkfaes last gear set was spry vest, charis hands, hakka hachimaki (aka the +staff one) charis legs charis feet+1 double venrus daggers Charis feather. I forget what else. Atma I used was strongarm and sea daughter. I subed /thf for the heck of it.

I would consider someone with that equipment, that sub-job, and those Atma to be both exerting and contributing the same amount of nothing as someone whose goal was to exert and contribute nothing. Well below the exertion and contribution provided by someone opening chests or paying 100,000 gil an hour.

[wish12oz]

I personally don't care how people get their jobs to 99 it doesn't matter to me. The leeching I don't like is bad players in events not gear swapping, not capping haste , not having equipment sets, the fact that I usually have to come whm because most white mages are abyssea burned and absolutely suck at real events, etc etc.

Even though my DDs are fully equipped with different sets etc, I have to come whm while the DD who "doesn't think gear swaps matter" comes DD because he can't heal.

Oh man, this brings back memories, I use to have to deal with this kind of crap too.
Then they raised the lvl cap and I didn't bother leveling jobs I don't feel like playing anymore.


So I like many others, consider you a leech if you don't have a basic understanding of your equipment, haste, gear swaps, and fully capped skills.

This is the true definition of a leech IMO.



I would consider someone with that equipment, that sub-job, and those Atma to be both exerting and contributing the same amount of nothing as someone whose goal was to exert and contribute nothing. Well below the exertion and contribution provided by someone opening chests or paying 100,000 gil an hour.

So true.

[Andreja]

Glad to see the great entertainment that Rosina can only bring is back. Good show.

[Feynman]

How it is helping ffxi?

Hi Rosina,

I think the argument goes like this, for many people getting exp is simply a waste of time. They don't want to level, they just want to be high level so they can do the end game content. For these people leeching lets them skip the part of the game they hate and get right into what it is they want to do. Does this help the game as a whole? Probably not. But it does seem to enhance the enjoyment that they get out of the game; a very good thing for them.

I certainly understand your frustration with leeching as you are referring to it. Not the people opening chests, holding KIs etc because, as you say, these people are contributing something to the group. Though people in-game do refer to this as leeching I don't think you meant to argue semantics on this post especially since you specifically said these aren't the people you are talking about.

But as far as what multiple people being allowed to stay in group and afk for several hours on end is adding to the game, I'm not really sure I have an answer other than the end result of those people being glad they didn't have to level themselves. And let's all be realistic, people being able to stay in party with no contribution because the leaders aren't paying attention, they know the party leader, or for some other reason does happen.

[Rohelius]

Ive never been in a party were people arent leeching or trying to leech and get called out on it.

With that said. In this other game i play if you leech and enough people in your party or alliance decide to report you they type "/report Payer name" then a box apears and you can choose many things to report like Botting, leeching, RMT etc~

For most things you get banned but for leeching you get a 15min status effect called "Dishonorable" which prevents you from joining any group for any reason.

I wish they had this system here, i really do.

[Feynman]

In this other game i play if you leech and enough people in your party or alliance decide to report you they type "/report Payer name" then a box apears and you can choose many things to report like Botting, leeching, RMT etc~

For most things you get banned but for leeching you get a 15min status effect called "Dishonorable" which prevents you from joining any group for any reason.

I wish they had this system here, i really do.

Interesting. Is this vetted in any way? I mean can someone just decide they want to be hateful and make you "Dishonorable" for no real reason?

[Zerich]

Lol, a WAR called me a leech last night because he didn't have the sense to use temps, while i was proccing on WHM/SCH for Voidwatch.

I let him stay bound and k.o.'d for a few fights. :cool:

[Rohelius]

If only one person reports you nothing happens.

People get mad and im sure they report each other in the process but it has to be a group report for it to take effect.

If your group as a whole reports you then you have no busyness in that group and you should leave anyways.

[Yinnyth]

As most know I dislike leeching. Now this is the art of leeching, I do not hate the players who leech. I find that it is rude to leech because your not contributing in earning the exp, or items you obtain. Your lack of effort makes other work harder then they might want to on a video game they use for relaxation.

As far as exp goes, filling an empty spot with dead-weight has a negligible effect on exp productivity unless you have helpful people who would like to join, but can't because you're full. In aby, exp is exp regardless of your numbers. In GoV, the exp from completing a regime greatly outweighs the exp per kill. If you have dead-weight clogging up your last ally space and someone helpful wants to join, the choice should be obvious. If not, then you enter into an quandry over where you draw line on "useful enough". Is a level 30 blm spamming bio on other peoples mobs really doing anything to help, or is he also a leech even though he's not afk?

Leeching is a matter of magnitude. Our interactions with one another are give and take. I leech from my friends, and I let them leech from me. Is our ratio a perfect 50/50? Well, even if it were a perfect 50/50, it would be impossible to prove with any metrics known to man. You want proof leeching is good for FFXI? I'll use an example of me leeching. I joined a complete stranger in Boyahda Tree because we were both after the same trial targets. We spent about an hour or two waiting for weather, doing some GoV to help level his dualbox char. At that point, I was out of time and had to go to work, but he let me stay in party and finished my trial for me as soon as weather popped. He leeched exp from me, and in exchange, I was allowed to leech trial kills, thus allowing us to build a relationship of trust with one another.

[Rosina]

if you hate leveling why play rpg?

leeching never was a blanket term so pardon me on that part.

And trust me i seen people encourage afk leeching. Not keywhoring or paying off ppl. A bit of an fyi about my gear... it actually wasn't crap. My eva was pretty high cuz of that gear/ sub choice so I barely got hit. I seen ninja with +2 full set get hit more then I did. I am not big on endgame so i really don't care about gear swapping. And ya it can be a waste of space for a 10% difference. I am a big rpg players and gears is pretty much the same on anyone of them Just a means of defence with small added bonuses to give you a SLIGHT edge.

but as I stated have to do with leeching. Also word of caution, you can't really gear swap in ffxiv... Just so you know u get a debuff a "itchy" status when you do.

Just cuz i don't do that magic 10% don't mean i'm a crap player. Least i play the game. Can tell most here have not played this game long. G/Sing was never heavely enforced nor should be.

[Yinnyth]

Lol, a WAR called me a leech last night because he didn't have the sense to use temps, while i was proccing on WHM/SCH for Voidwatch.

I let him stay bound and k.o.'d for a few fights. :cool:

A vengeful member can be much worse than a leech. IRL, you don't prank your fellow soldiers while you're under heavy fire no matter what offensive thing they've said to you. Doing so puts everyone at a greater risk, not just the guy you hate.

Same thing goes for ingame. You might not like him, but that doesn't mean he doesn't serve a purpose for you and everyone else there. Refusing to help him is refusing to help your group. Refusing to help your group makes you a leech. Being a leech makes his claim true.

Granted, I wasn't there to see the specifics, but "He said something mean" is never a good reason to not help him when you're both part of a larger group working towards a goal.

[Arcon]

if you hate leveling why play rpg?

Because EXP isn't the only way to develop a character. Many here would agree that the experience gained from harder enemies and group fights as well as the items obtained from that develop your character more than just fighting trash mobs for hours on end. Or why do you think FFXI's content consists of 5% EXP and 95% stuff that happens afterwards?


And trust me i seen people encourage afk leeching. Not keywhoring or paying off ppl.

Who? Where? I cannot believe that, because it is absolutely retarded.


And ya it can be a waste of space for a 10% difference. I am a big rpg players and gears is pretty much the same on anyone of them Just a means of defence with small added bonuses to give you a SLIGHT edge.

My current DD gear on WAR puts me at 25% Haste, 34% Double Attack, 15% Critical Hit Rate and 18% Critical Hit Damage, along with many other features like Accuracy, Attack and Store TP, which greatly enhance your physical capabilities further. Assuming a WHM is hasting me, that puts me at 50% Haste with Hasso. Which brings my damage output to:

D*(66% + 2*34%)*(85%+15%*160%*118%)/(1-50%) = D*3.037

Without that gear it would be:

D*(83% + 2*17%)*(90%+10%*160%*108%)/(1-25%) = D*1.674

Meaning my gear alone makes me twice as good, in this situation. A lot better still, the higher my total Haste gets, like in zerging situations with a BRD, COR or SCH. That's disregarding the fact that, thanks to my gear, I have one hit less to my next WS and disregarding all the boosts to accuracy and attack, which make me hit more frequently and miscallaneous boosts like extending duration of Warcry or increase damage of Retaliation attacks by 20% further, and of course boosts my WS damage alone by over 50%. Also, my gear is still far from perfect. You'd notice the difference even more on dual wielding jobs, since Dual Wield is applied in the same way as Haste, meaning it gets better the more you have of it. My THF gets a far bigger boost from gear than my WAR. Realistically speaking the damage increase is in the triple to quadruple range.

Also, it kinda irks me that you refer to gear as "a means of defence". Very little gear has actually any valuable defensive capabilities, namely the gear with "damage taken" or "magic defense bonus" on it. The DEF-rating on gear is almost negligible.


G/Sing was never heavely enforced nor should be.

Of course not, how could it be "enforced"? There is no gear police running around. But it is encouraged and it always was. That's why SE gave us the ability to change gear from within macros in the first place. And they still encourage us to do it, or how would you explain gear that shortens Aquaveil casting time? Do you mean to tell me that SE intended that as a fulltiming piece?

[Anapingofness]

Figure its time for a friendly debate about this, since "Leeching" is working its way into end game.
All i ask is keep your opinions clean of insults.

As most know I dislike leeching. Now this is the art of leeching, I do not hate the players who leech. I find that it is rude to leech because your not contributing in earning the exp, or items you obtain. Your lack of effort makes other work harder then they might want to on a video game they use for relaxation. In the early days of ffxi you got kicked, insulted, had insulting shouts made about you for leeching. Heck go away for 5 min longer then stated you would get people insulting you left and right.

In my personal experience, both past and present, leeching is bad. I seen alliences go from insane exp rates to trickling exp because 30-50% of the party stop fighting/contributing. It does suck joining an aby pt and due to leeching mages.. get no TE. What i'm looking for is proof of leeching being good? How it is helping ffxi?

Leeching is frustrating, no doubt about that... but I think the only way leeching would work is if it was mutually beneficial. The only instance where I've seen leeching work effectively is something like the lowbie instances in Forsaken World where the leech and the people he's leeching from get something.

As far as FFXI is concerned well, I think people still get shit for leeching. Tbh, in any game where both parties don't benefit leeching becomes a problem and the leech will get crap for it.

As far as my personal exp goes... well, I'm happy to say that I haven't seen leeching happen lately. ^^

[Shadowsong]

if you hate leveling why play rpg?

THIS GAME IS NOT ABOUT LEVELING, holy bejesus



And ya it can be a waste of space for a 10% difference.

What in God's name do you need that inventory for? My BST has TP set, WS set, Reward set, and pet enhancement set and I still have like 15 slots.

BTW: That comment about you vs that NIN evading made me spit coke onto my monitor, very well done

[cidbahamut]

A bit of an fyi about my gear... it actually wasn't crap
Everything you have told us thus far would suggest otherwise. I mean really, you were using atma of the Sea Daughter on a non-ranged job. That really says it all.

[Shadowsong]

spry vest, charis hands, hakka hachimaki (aka the +staff one) charis legs charis feet+1 double venrus daggers Charis feather. I forget what else. Atma I used was strongarm and sea daughter. I subed /thf for the heck of it. And i solo'ed khalamari and gangly gean for kicks. I pvp'ed with as a 90 dnc vs a 95 pup who mastered the job, but still held my own.

Because I am bored...
1) Every single piece of gear you just listed is awful. Not just awful, but there was better gear at 75

2) Sea Daughter on a melee...... speaks for itself. Razed Ruins and Voracious Violet say Hi!

3) Subbing THF easily cut your damage and survivability by a third, if not more. For you not to even have a justification for it beyond "for the heck of it" makes Baby Jesus cry even more. ("Yea I use bone arrows on my RNG instead of antlion..... for the heck of it")

4) A naked level 80 DNC could solo Khalamari and Gangly Green (not with Stout Arm and Sea Daughter tho, lol)

5) Bragging about PvP is already one of the noobiest things a person can do, but bragging about one against a PUP? That you didn't even win!?


edit: Listen, I am not trying to single you out and/or make you feel bad. It's a learning experience this game. However, just like in real life, when someone flat out REFUSES to learn, and even belittles people who play correctly, you are going to be sought out and persecuted. If at any point you would just swallow your pride and admit where you are wrong, you could start to grow as a player and we would all respect you that much more. You would maybe see that you could be mistaken or misunderstand how game mechanics work.

I feel bad nearly every post you write gets torn down and set on fire, but at this point, it is the only way we know how to talk with you because we know you are not going to listen to anything we have to say.

[Alhanelem]

Time out for a minute to let you know that for *support* (not DD) DNC, sea daughter is actually ridiculously good, as take that with VV and you can cure people all day long. You could hardly spend the TP faster than you get it.

Beyond that, totally agree with your entire post.

[Lotto]

if you hate leveling why play rpg?

leeching never was a blanket term so pardon me on that part.

And trust me i seen people encourage afk leeching. Not keywhoring or paying off ppl. A bit of an fyi about my gear... it actually wasn't crap. My eva was pretty high cuz of that gear/ sub choice so I barely got hit. I seen ninja with +2 full set get hit more then I did. I am not big on endgame so i really don't care about gear swapping. And ya it can be a waste of space for a 10% difference. I am a big rpg players and gears is pretty much the same on anyone of them Just a means of defence with small added bonuses to give you a SLIGHT edge.

You realize that with your playstyle/Gear/Atma choice you are what you hate? Want it or not you are a leech in most of the end game situation.
If I shout for a Botulus Rex VW and see your gear, the first thing i'll do is give you a free D2 and just kick you. Why? Because you will end on the floor after 10s and be a leech for the whole run.
Try to understand the game mechanics before even complaining about other players because right now it just makes you a hypocrite.

[Flionheart]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-gT1vJpzn670/TWNQbuZhzhI/AAAAAAAAA8c/49HaUfcEy6o/s1600/stop_leeching.jpg

You're 100% right rosina, I find leeching disgusting and unsightly!

I'm pretty sick of people playing my game and not doing it properly. It would be nice if people would just learn to play the frickin game and not use cheap tactics to get an edge (good luck beating me to a pop if you're still level 15 bcoz you got kicked for leeching!)

People who use gear swapping (WHICH GOES AGAINST THE VERY NATURE OF THE GAME!) are a close second. I'm sick and tired of these newbies in 11

[Bled]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-gT1vJpzn670/TWNQbuZhzhI/AAAAAAAAA8c/49HaUfcEy6o/s1600/stop_leeching.jpg

You're 100% right rosina, I find leeching disgusting and unsightly!

I'm pretty sick of people playing my game and not doing it properly. It would be nice if people would just learn to play the frickin game and not use cheap tactics to get an edge (good luck beating me to a pop if you're still level 15 bcoz you got kicked for leeching!)

People who use gear swapping (WHICH GOES AGAINST THE VERY NATURE OF THE GAME!) are a close second. I'm sick and tired of these newbies in 11

due tell how gear swapping goes against the nature of the game...

[Flionheart]

Several pieces of gear that cater to full time use. If you think that gear swapping is how this game was DESIGNED then you're probably one of the scrubs who uses windower as a crutch.

[Tamoa]

You realize that with your playstyle/Gear/Atma choice you are what you hate? Want it or not you are a leech in most of the end game situation.
If I shout for a Botulus Rex VW and see your gear, the first thing i'll do is give you a free D2 and just kick you. Why? Because you will end on the floor after 10s and be a leech for the whole run.
Try to understand the game mechanics before even complaining about other players because right now it just makes you a hypocrite.

That is exactly what I was getting at in my previous post. Rosina is talking about how she can't wait for Legion - yet, with her playstyle she will be nothing but a leech should she get invited to a Legion run. Lack of gear swaps will make her a LOT less efficient in every way possible, likely to die multiple times from aoe damage, and she'll be the leech. Worst case scenario, someone with such a massively gimped playstyle might actually cause the party/alliance to wipe.

As for Botulus Rex, that's a bad example seeing as she apparently has no clue what voidwatch is.

[wish12oz]

Several pieces of gear that cater to full time use. If you think that gear swapping is how this game was DESIGNED then you're probably one of the scrubs who uses windower as a crutch.

At first I thought you were joking, but with this post I can tell you're just a bad player and need to try and take your anger out on others. Having good gear swaps on a melee job, easily multiplies your damage output by 4, if not more. Gear swaps can be macro'd easily within the actual game, which shows it WAS designed like that.

And frankly, I feel bad for anyone that has to deal with your no-gearing-swapping-1-instrument-bard. It must be cool playing ballad in that +2 march horn for your mages, or whatever terrible decisions you make.

[Flionheart]

At first I thought you were joking, but with this post I can tell you're just a bad player and need to try and take your anger out on others. Having good gear swaps on a melee job, easily multiplies your damage output by 4, if not more. Gear swaps can be macro'd easily within the actual game, which shows it WAS designed like that.

And frankly, I feel bad for anyone that has to deal with your no-gearing-swapping-1-instrument-bard. It must be cool playing ballad in that +2 march horn for your mages, or whatever terrible decisions you make.

>implying ballad matters

[wish12oz]

>implying ballad matters

lolyoustillplayinsideabyssea

[Flionheart]

lolyoustillplayinsideabyssea

lolyoudonthavetemps

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/16523732.jpg

[wish12oz]

lolyoudonthavetemps


lolyoudovoidwatchandabyssea

[Flionheart]

lolyoudovoidwatchandabyssea


lolyoudonthavetemps

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/16523732.jpg

I still do sea

so relevant

[wish12oz]

To bad you don't do gear swaps =[

[Flionheart]

To bad you don't do gear swaps =[

Too*

You think that you cheaters would use the time that you save to learn some grammar.

[wish12oz]

Too*

You think that you cheaters would use the time that you save to learn some grammar.

The standard ffxi client does gear swaps, it's not cheating no matter how bad and lazy you are. try it, it's pretty easy.
/equip slotname "item's name"

[Flionheart]

The standard ffxi client does gear swaps, it's not cheating no matter how bad and lazy you are. try it, it's pretty easy.
/equip slotname "item's name"

If you do it like that then you are less efficient in battle. Having to type out equip changes make it so you can't concentrate. I guess it's easy to do seeing as all you play is old events because Abyssea and Voidwatch are too mainstream.

Come back once you do newer events kiddo

[Tsuneo]

Too*

You think that you cheaters would use the time that you save to learn some grammar.

I'd love to bust on Kaerin for his lousy grammar, but you're still wrong about gear swaps.


If you do it like that then you are less efficient in battle. Having to type out equip changes make it so you can't concentrate. I guess it's easy to do seeing as all you play is old events because Abyssea and Voidwatch are too mainstream.

Come back once you do newer events kiddo

He's pointing out that gear swaps can be done without macros at all. Macros make it so you don't have to type out gear swaps.

[Flionheart]

I'd love to bust on Kaerin for his lousy grammar, but you're still wrong about gear swaps.

In all seriousness you people are terrible.

[Tsuneo]

There's no way you could actually be this dumb.

[wolfshadow]

Are we still going on about this? I figured the general public would work this out but apparently not. It's already been established by a majority of players that gear swaps of any form or fashion are just a means of exploiting an outdated system. I'm honestly quite surprised there hasn't been anything on the level of salvage-bans for this shit, it's ridiculous.

[Flionheart]

Are we still going on about this? I figured the general public would work this out but apparently not. It's already been established by a majority of players that gear swaps of any form or fashion are just a means of exploiting an outdated system. I'm honestly quite surprised there hasn't been anything on the level of salvage-bans for this shit, it's ridiculous.

Thank you, about time someone else posted sense here. (other than rosina ofc)

[Tamoa]

Quit ruining the thread with the trolling damnit! D:

[wolfshadow]

Quit ruining the thread with the trolling damnit! D:

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/265/314/44d.png

those people talking about doing gear swaps were trolling? well now I feel dumb. sorry im new to internet forum xD

[wish12oz]

Resorting to cheap insults because you have nothing else is sort of cowardly. At least try and argue against the actual points I make. Like how you can type out gear swaps into macros and use them before actions you take.
Here's an easy one:

Line 1: /equip body "Rvg. Lorica +2"
Line 2: /ja "Blood Rage" <me>
Line 3: /recast "Blood Rage"
Line 4: /wait 1
Line 5: /equip body "Valkyrie Breastplate"

This will equip your WAR AF3+2 body before you use blood rage, doubling the duration of the effect, and then put your Valkyrie Breastplate back on, and it's super easy and done inside the standard game macros. It will even tell you how long you have until blood rage is up again if you hit the macro when it's not up.

And seriously, you're telling me the ability to do this is harder than the ability to point out someone picked the wrong "too" off the spellchecker because they were trying to fish and messed up spelling the word originally? I had tooq because when I went to hit alt+tab I hit q instead of tab, and to just happened to be at the top of the list when I went to change it, but I will be sure to try super hard in the future to not make such grievous errors so you have nothing to say. If you're so awesome at Engrish then you should have no problem mastering the macro system of FFXI. Now go get to it gimp.

[Tsuneo]

Implying you didn't fall for it and call me dumb.
I'm pretty sure I stated you couldn't be that dumb.

[Flionheart]

I'm pretty sure I stated you couldn't be that dumb.

You know what you did :)

[Lafaiel]

Are we still going on about this? I figured the general public would work this out but apparently not. It's already been established by a majority of players that gear swaps of any form or fashion are just a means of exploiting an outdated system. I'm honestly quite surprised there hasn't been anything on the level of salvage-bans for this shit, it's ridiculous.

WHAT? am I really going to get banned for this? I didn't know I was exploiting the system, I always wondered how it was poissible to let 500 extra damage on a sneak attack slide when I swapped gear, looks like I'll have to retire thf, or lose my capped haste... screw it, I'll just full time my thf af like I see the good thf's doing, now I know that I was in the wrong, green is the way I should have gone long ago ; ;

>.>

<.<

(you almost had me going there)

[Xophious]

Greetings everyone.

I had to remove several posts from the thread since it has been severely derailed. Please stay on topic and friendly, otherwise the thread will be closed and action will be taken on those that do not follow the forum guidelines.

Thank you.

[detlef]

You guys got trolled. A lot. That was really ugly and I feel bad for everybody.

[Feynman]

THIS GAME IS NOT ABOUT LEVELING, holy bejesus

Do you honestly believe this though? Exp, and hence leveling in some form or fashion, is the central force behind character development. This is a staple of RPGs. You start low, you fight monsters, gain some form of "credit" towards a new "level" (increased base stats), wash, rinse, repeat. Is there more to do than just that? Yes but you seem to be saying that leveling is not the thing that advances character growth. With each level your base stats increase. New abilities, traits, and skills are gained upon reaching the correct level. Even your ability to parry, block with a shield, use a weapon skill, your weapon actually hit at all, etc is based on your "level" with that skill/weapon, which is in turned tied to your character level. If you go quest and obtain a nice new weapon or armor, it comes with a level requirement. If you don't meet it you can't use it! You have to go level your character more. What mobs will or will not attack you when you walk by them is based on your level. Whether you can enter certain end-game content, like Dynamis and Aby are based on your level. Virtually every single action you take, piece of equipment you touch, or quest you do is tied to your level in some way. If you want to progress, if you want to do more things in the game you MUST level your character. So everything is tied to leveling. Perhaps we've spent too long sitting at cap level that we've forgotten that we had to do something to get there.

The other thing you've said many times here is that exp is not content. (Forgive me for not digging through and finding a direct quote.) Of course it is. It is contained inside the structure that is the game. It is content. It may not be content you like. It may be content that can very nearly be skipped completely now. But it is still content. And since exp is the content that drives the action of leveling, it is also central to the main game mechanic.

The newer content allows you to skip most of the time spent leveling by dramatically increasing the amount of exp you can get. I'm not even trying to say this is bad, or shouldn't be done, or anything like that. But saying the leveling and exp are not content and not the driving force behind character development is factually and demonstrably false.

[Rosina]

food for thought

Excuse me but... none of you physically seen me play. So to assume I suck based on gear is pretty imature, stupid, and down right idiotic.
Ffxi was never THIS bad. You guys have pretty poor attitudes about PLAYING a video game. Not every rpg/mmorpg allows for quick easy gear swaping. If they did (with out cheating) then I would belive you. Back in the 75 days not everyone did gear swaping. Only a rare select few. Yet I still people down bosses with ease gear swaping or not. I played this mmorpg for 7 years most of you admited 2+ years. So you guys do not know jack on how the game REALLY is. Gear is just gear... all serve a purpose, but really just serves as a slight edge. No matter how good you think your gear is. True skill in play is how good you know the job. Down to proper timing of skills and abilities based on the mob your fighting and its resistances. And your not a leech for not hitting that 10% and yes it is 10%. though it adds up based on combination of gear your 10% "better".

[Rosina]

The only TRUE leeching is really being afk and sucking exp and loot. Since the term came from the parasitic slug typically found in lakes, pounds or oceans. It people used the term because people were going afk for long time and just sucking the exp while the party played. I wore the gear I did because it was my choice. I mostly did stuff solo anyway. I do not care if people do 3000 dmg with a ws. I seen people die from being too "leet" then cry. TBH in group setting it is the combined effort of the group not an iduvidual is how stuff gets done in this game. I don't care what your output is. As long as boss/ mob dies i personally don't care. As long as you do the role you decided to play idc.

You guys are to vain to really say you enjoy this game you care too much about computer generated numbers over just enjoying the game. You guys are so full of yourselves this game is suffering from the moralitry of the server communities. Infact this game no longer has a community feel, rather play WoW or ff14.. least 1

[Lafaiel]

Do you honestly believe this though? Exp, and hence leveling in some form or fashion, is the central force behind character development. This is a staple of RPGs. You start low, you fight monsters, gain some form of "credit" towards a new "level" (increased base stats), wash, rinse, repeat. Is there more to do than just that? Yes but you seem to be saying that leveling is not the thing that advances character growth. With each level your base stats increase. New abilities, traits, and skills are gained upon reaching the correct level. Even your ability to parry, block with a shield, use a weapon skill, your weapon actually hit at all, etc is based on your "level" with that skill/weapon, which is in turned tied to your character level. If you go quest and obtain a nice new weapon or armor, it comes with a level requirement. If you don't meet it you can't use it! You have to go level your character more. What mobs will or will not attack you when you walk by them is based on your level. Whether you can enter certain end-game content, like Dynamis and Aby are based on your level. Virtually every single action you take, piece of equipment you touch, or quest you do is tied to your level in some way. If you want to progress, if you want to do more things in the game you MUST level your character. So everything is tied to leveling. Perhaps we've spent too long sitting at cap level that we've forgotten that we had to do something to get there.

The other thing you've said many times here is that exp is not content. (Forgive me for not digging through and finding a direct quote.) Of course it is. It is contained inside the structure that is the game. It is content. It may not be content you like. It may be content that can very nearly be skipped completely now. But it is still content. And since exp is the content that drives the action of leveling, it is also central to the main game mechanic.

The newer content allows you to skip most of the time spent leveling by dramatically increasing the amount of exp you can get. I'm not even trying to say this is bad, or shouldn't be done, or anything like that. But saying the leveling and exp are not content and not the driving force behind character development is factually and demonstrably false.

I actually believe this as well, in most games I've played where you level quickly the communities are pretty bad, you never get to get to meet people along the way because its so quick, everything is temporary, including people you meet on that short journey, you don't get to know them and you have no respect for them, in my travels across vana'diel I've met people that have helped me greatly, and people that I've helped in the long road to 75 that grew with me as players.

People that I had never met before but played many times with because we were in the same level range for a long time that ended up into cop statics and zilart statics, and a jp player that I helped that is helping me get an empy done after taking a 2 year break, leveling was part of the core of this game to me, some JP players showed me how to MB in the dunes years ago, met players that wanted to level in altep but I didn't have the tele crystal that instead of kicking me and finding another player ran me to the telepoint and we exp'd together a few more times after that.

Yes things change, but at least you had to be awake and couldn't just pay someone 100k/hour and go to sleep just to wake up as a level 99, I won't say it built character because we all know there were a lot of level 75 bad players, but I think the old leveling system helped build relationships along the way, humans tend to only come together under hardships that if were not there, they tend to cut one anothers throats.

Yes, I enjoyed the level grind, but I won't lie, I played brd and cor mostly, I waited on mnk forver for a party before ToAU hit and I was only level 40, the sooner you get to endgame, the sooner you get burned out on endgame content, and I think FFXI had one of the best leveling experiences other than early EQ2 to me.

[Arcon]

Excuse me but... none of you physically seen me play. So to assume I suck based on gear is pretty imature, stupid, and down right idiotic.

It's not. Precisely because we cannot see you play we can only judge by what you give us, which is gear. No matter your skill, you cannot play better than your gear allows you. You won't attack for more damage because of how good you are at a skill, but you'll attack for more because of your gear. Same goes for faster, more accurate, etc.


Ffxi was never THIS bad. You guys have pretty poor attitudes about PLAYING a video game.

This has nothing to do with playing the game. This all about you. I know plenty of people who play very casually and never gear swap and I'm perfectly fine with them. But they don't talk bullshit and try to force their opinion on me (like you deciding what's bad and rude and what isn't). And they never made up numbers and outright lied to my face (like you saying gear doesn't do much).

[Tamoa]

food for thought

Excuse me but... none of you physically seen me play. So to assume I suck based on gear is pretty imature, stupid, and down right idiotic.
Ffxi was never THIS bad. You guys have pretty poor attitudes about PLAYING a video game. Not every rpg/mmorpg allows for quick easy gear swaping. If they did (with out cheating) then I would belive you. Back in the 75 days not everyone did gear swaping. Only a rare select few. Yet I still people down bosses with ease gear swaping or not. I played this mmorpg for 7 years most of you admited 2+ years. So you guys do not know jack on how the game REALLY is. Gear is just gear... all serve a purpose, but really just serves as a slight edge. No matter how good you think your gear is. True skill in play is how good you know the job. Down to proper timing of skills and abilities based on the mob your fighting and its resistances. And your not a leech for not hitting that 10% and yes it is 10%. though it adds up based on combination of gear your 10% "better".

Hey, I'll give you an example: My war has this nice thing called a -PDT (-physical damage taken) set. Less than one hour ago I was fighting this voidwatch nm called Lancing Lamorak. It can do an attack called Rhinowrecker, which is almost guaranteed to oneshot whoever is in the way. I survived that - twice - left with just under 300 hp both times. Why? Because I hit my -PDT macro, and thus taking FIFTY PERCENT less physical damage. Yes, that is FIFTY PERCENT, not 10. I would have been oneshot both times without that -PDT gear. Instead the whm cured me and I could continue the fight and be useful to the whole group.

Also, I have an Ukonvasara great axe, and thus access to the ws called Ukko's Fury. This ws is modified by STR, which in simple terms means that the more STR I stack in my ws gear, the more damage the ws does. Now, why wouldn't I, or anyone else playing a melee job, want my ws to do as much damage as possible? And we are talking a HELL OF A LOT more than just a 10% increase here. Only exception I can think of, is if I'm trying to proc something and not kill it, but then I wouldn't even be using Ukko's Fury in the first place.

If you join a group event, and you're gimp and not using gearswap macros, you are a leech, plain and simple. You complain about exp leeches (people not doing anything to earn their exp) - well, that full pink dancer with one shitty atma, contributing maybe 1-2% of overall damage, needing to be curebombed and dying to La Theine worms, is a leech too. If you join a Legion run and even the brd is outparsing you, you are a leech. If your level 72 daggers do 300 damage Eviscerations (assuming you've even done the wsnm for it) and aoe damage keeps oneshotting you, you are a leech - and potentially costing the group the win.

Oh and for your information, I have played this game for 6 years, done more endgame events than you can dream of, and swapped gear since I learned about macros.

I'll just round off with this, seems appropriate here:

http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad265/Tamoa_photos/skillvsgearlol.jpg

[Asymptotic]

Time out for a minute to let you know that for *support* (not DD) DNC, sea daughter is actually ridiculously good, as take that with VV and you can cure people all day long. You could hardly spend the TP faster than you get it.

Beyond that, totally agree with your entire post.

No, at that point, you should have come WHM.

As far as leeching goes, I don't really care. Killing with 18 people isn't much different from killing with 12 people.

Keyers are necessary for an XP alliance, and who cares what job they are on.

I'm glad that if I feel like it, I can pay for XP when I want to level a job but don't have time to mindlessly grind through 10,000 mobs.

[Yinnyth]

The only TRUE leeching is really being afk and sucking exp and loot.

So a curebot character is a bigger leech than a guy who does nothing more than running around taking loot out of gold chests? The leechiness of a character is determined by a ratio of two terms: how much of the workload they take on, and how much of the reward they reap. Afk is not the leechiest state a person could be in.

[Shadowsong]

Do you honestly believe this though? Exp, and hence leveling in some form or fashion, is the central force behind character development. This is a staple of RPGs. You start low, you fight monsters, gain some form of "credit" towards a new "level" (increased base stats), wash, rinse, repeat. Is there more to do than just that? Yes but you seem to be saying that leveling is not the thing that advances character growth.

Yes, I honestly believe that.
While you are technically correct that leveling = growth (of course?), I have been playing this game for the better part of 8 years now. I agree with you that leveling USED TO BE important. Back when you were stuck at level 50 for 2 months trying to get AF quests and stuff like that. Getting max level is no longer an accomplishment, its a requirement.
I would argue that the game does not even begin until you hit 75(99). I do not find mass killing dolls in Altepa fun. I DO find killing super godz and ultra dragonz; busting your ass off, while having fun and earning gear fun.
This game does not exist in a vacuum, it is an MMO. To not compare yourself to other people is insane, and when I compare myself I want to be the best I can be. Mentally its pleasing, but I also like being able to help my buddies better and not just be an anchor they complain about in /tells. To me at least.
I suppose there could be people who like standing in the same place for hours doing the exact same thing, that is just not me. And to be honest, I feel bad for those people. For the people who never experience what this game truely has to offer, and think that xping is actually the fun part, well... uh.... "broaden your horizons"?

[Shadowsong]

Back in the 75 days not everyone did gear swaping. Only a rare select few.

Well now you are just outright lieing... myself and everyone around me was gear swapping before we had sub jobs in the dunes on the second week of NA release......

And ROFL! at 10% increase from gear swapping, try 400%+. So clueless, I take back my plea earlier for you to straighten up and fly right, this is too funny.

[Yinnyth]

Well now you are just outright lieing... myself and everyone around me was gear swapping before we had sub jobs in the dunes on the second week of NA release......

I have to agree with this statement. I was gear swapping on brd as soon as I got my second instrument. Gear swapping is intentional. SE has proven they have the ability to nerf gear swapping if they want to (pvp content punishes you heavily when you swap gear). They also constantly release gear which is only situationally useful (ra/ex ammo is the biggest example).

[Feynman]

Yes, I honestly believe that.
While you are technically correct that leveling = growth (of course?), I have been playing this game for the better part of 8 years now. I agree with you that leveling USED TO BE important. Back when you were stuck at level 50 for 2 months trying to get AF quests and stuff like that. Getting max level is no longer an accomplishment, its a requirement.

To end game content I agree obviously. But if you haven't been playing the game for 8 years like we have (and I'm always surprised by how many new players I find) then there is still plenty of content you can do without being 99. Namely everything we did before we were 99, or 75 in our cases.


I do not find mass killing dolls in Altepa fun. I DO find killing super godz and ultra dragonz; busting your ass off, while having fun and earning gear fun.[\QUOTE]

And you're in the majority here, no question about that. But dismiss entire parts of the game as not being content at all because you don't enjoy it is a little extreme.


[QUOTE=Shadowsong;296042]This game does not exist in a vacuum, it is an MMO. To not compare yourself to other people is insane, and when I compare myself I want to be the best I can be. Mentally its pleasing, but I also like being able to help my buddies better and not just be an anchor they complain about in /tells. To me at least.

Zero argument here. But you have to keep things in perspective as well. For a lvl 30 BST to try to compare himself to me or any lvl 99 BST isn't even realistic, but I see people trying to do it. The level difference is too high and for some jobs, like BST, the play style after 75 is very different than what it used to be.


I suppose there could be people who like standing in the same place for hours doing the exact same thing, that is just not me.[\QUOTE]

Like killing NMs for several hours to get drops for armor/weapon upgrades? Or Magian Trials, or 100 floors of the same scenarios, etc. No matter what you are doing, the game is repetitive.

[QUOTE=Shadowsong;296042]And to be honest, I feel bad for those people. For the people who never experience what this game truely has to offer, and think that xping is actually the fun part, well... uh.... "broaden your horizons"?

As long as they are having fun why fell sorry for them. People enjoy different things. As I said before, live and let live. As for me (and I think I mentioned this a bit before) I enjoy NM hunting, gear upgrading, Aby, Dyna, VNMs, etc. I also enjoy having the time to experiment with new abilities/spells and try and squeeze every nuanced usage out of it. It's not that I find standing in one spot exping for hours on end to be the fun part. It's everything else I'm doing at the same time. And to be fair, when I'm leveling I different job I normally throw an exp ring, set a page to repeat and go until the ring wears off. This gets me a decent boost to that job without driving myself insane. I then switch to a different job and go work with friends, jump in aby, dyna, besieged if I can catch it (personal weakness), or whatever else I feel like doing.

[Feynman]

I guess my main problem is that I've seen the community of FFXI run off too many new players recently. I've seen people come in, never played the game before, everybody tries to shoot them straight to 99 before they ever know how to make macros. Literally, in some cases. I've seen these people get frustrated because they aren't being allowed to explore, to learn, to enjoy the game, and they quit. I'm getting a collection of people on messengers that started and got pushed to the top so fast they never enjoyed themselves and then quit.

[Sp1cyryan]

A Rosina thread huh? I died a bit inside.

In my opinion "leeching" is not something that requires attention from SE and overall is not a big deal.


I guess my main problem is that I've seen the community of FFXI run off too many new players recently. I've seen people come in, never played the game before, everybody tries to shoot them straight to 99 before they ever know how to make macros. Literally, in some cases. I've seen these people get frustrated because they aren't being allowed to explore, to learn, to enjoy the game, and they quit. I'm getting a collection of people on messengers that started and got pushed to the top so fast they never enjoyed themselves and then quit.

What? I like to understand how people have this notion that boring grind somehow equates to people "learning how to play" better. People still "sucked" at the 75 cap, didn't know what they were doing, didn't know how to make macros, etc. I honestly think it is the same overall.

People are driving off new players? What did people in the days of Valkrum Dunes pts do? It is no different. Have people forgotten the good old saying of same shit different day? That one really says it all.

New players got sucked into astral burns, chigoe burns, etc back at 75 cap and rocketed up there quickly. Leveling quickly or at a slower pace has nothing to do with the person taking the interest to figure out the game, know what they are doing, and get their bearings. It has nothing to do with potential.

Nothing is keeping players from leaving their party and exploring, soloing, and so on that is just a bunch of fooey. No one pushed these players to continue doing nothing but leveling in the first place besides themselves, and the ability to do this has always existed.

[Feynman]

People are driving off new players? What did people in the days of Valkrum Dunes pts do? It is no different. Have people forgotten the good old saying of same shit different day? That one really says it all.

New players got sucked into astral burns, chigoe burns, etc back at 75 cap and rocketed up there quickly. Leveling quickly or at a slower pace has nothing to do with the person taking the interest to figure out the game, know what they are doing, and get their bearings. It has nothing to do with potential.

Nothing is keeping players from leaving their party and exploring, soloing, and so on that is just a bunch of fooey. No one pushed these players to continue doing nothing but leveling in the first place besides themselves, and the ability to do this has always existed.

No doubt, this game has always suffered from the "my way only" mentality and from day one it has run people off. And back in the days of the 6-man party there really was only one way. We can level pretty much however we want now so everybody should pick their favorite way and go for it without telling other people that they are doing it "wrong". But I have seen enormous pressure on low level players to hurry up hit cap and come do the end game stuff especially in the smaller ls that are more likely to take on new players.

I'm not trying to say that "that boring grind somehow equates to people "learning how to play" better". What I'm trying to say is for a new player going straight to 99 with barely seeing any zone that isn't the first 10 feet of Gusgen mines and an aby zone is not an enjoyable experience for them.

In case it's gotten lost let me summarize my point on this thread. Let people play how they want to play. You are under no obligation to play with them if they don't live up to your expectations. People not knowing what in the world they are doing is annoying but as many people have pointed out, they've always existed. Still even in the current age of fast exp saying things like leveling is not part of the game is absurd. And finally as a community can we please stop fighting with each other? Many of these forums are a great example of how hostile things have become.

[Shadowsong]

I guess my main problem is that I've seen the community of FFXI run off too many new players recently. I've seen people come in, never played the game before, everybody tries to shoot them straight to 99 before they ever know how to make macros.

When you are right, you are right. Sometimes I (older players) do forget about the newer players. While I still say SE should be aiming the majority of things at the old crew, older content still may have relevance to people, so there fore shouldn't be ignored.

That said, if there IS a new person, would you not want them to be involved in content that is actually being explored nowadays? Back in the day, new people weren't expected to do Expeditionary Forces or Eco-Warriors, so why should we worry about them doing comparable content now?

[Feynman]

While I still say SE should be aiming the majority of things at the old crew, older content still may have relevance to people, so there fore shouldn't be ignored.

That said, if there IS a new person, would you not want them to be involved in content that is actually being explored nowadays? Back in the day, new people weren't expected to do Expeditionary Forces or Eco-Warriors, so why should we worry about them doing comparable content now?

Absolutely. SE would be insane to release a bunch of stuff aimed at level 30 or something. And I'd certainly like people to get to do the new content and trust me I'd rather be running around end game with them instead of doing G2 for the millionth time. But a lot of the old content really is good, especially if you're just learning the game. Look how long it's kept us around. To a new player this still is a new world and can be overwhelming. Pushing them straight to the top just makes that worse for them. If they want to then by all means let's do it, but we shouldn't make them feel like they have to. If they want to take their time and move at their own pace that's fine by me too.

And Eco-Warrior....because I did one....just one....and swore never again!

[Sp1cyryan]

I'm not trying to say that "that boring grind somehow equates to people "learning how to play" better". What I'm trying to say is for a new player going straight to 99 with barely seeing any zone that isn't the first 10 feet of Gusgen mines and an aby zone is not an enjoyable experience for them.

Still once more that is their choice to go straight to 99, to stay in a few zones, and apparently not explore (what..?).
I am not seeing your point. Are you trying to say people should branch out more and move camps every 5 levels and waste time like in the old days?


As for the hostile nature of people on forums comment. Youmustbenewhere.jpg.

People by nature can tend to be hostile especially when debating what some consider to be right vs wrong.

[Alhanelem]

No, at that point, you should have come WHM.You could have, but maybe you don't have WHM. Personally, I don't, and don't ever intend to. However, if that extra support is needed, it is very effective. Think outside the goddang box instead of submitting to the cookie cutter pigeon holes, and you will find creative solutions to problems. Of course for any job that isn't WHM that has any healing capacity, you would just say "you should have come WHM." That doesn't discount that those other jobs have their place (either a WHM isn't avialable, or you want the additional benefits of some other job- for instance, while doing this on DNC, I may be near the mob with my back to it, supporting by using steps and healing, without feeding the mob any TP)

... At any rate, it looks like most people would agree that leeching is only an issue if someone was invited to the party with the understanding that they would fight, then they go AFK and don't come back (except whenver prodded to see if they're AFK, where they suddenly spring into action for a few minutes and go afk again). It's not a problem when the person was specifically invited to fill party space and either pay gil or contribute by opening boxes.

[Asymptotic]

It's not about finding creative solutions to problems. I'm perfectly capable of that, thank you. The thing you fail to realize is that DNC healing is not limited in any way by its TP gain. You'd still be stuck with shared timers, and you still should have brought a WHM.

It's perfectly fine to play in weird, sub-optimal setups. That's your choice. But people are stupid. If you suggest them, they'll think they're good ideas, when really, you just want a lazy subpar workaround because you don't want to level or bring a WHM.

I would consider any DNC using sub-optimal atma setups (regain atmas) because they think they're somehow limited by their TP generation rate (they're not if geared properly) a leech.

We've established many times over in this thread that leeching is an abomination that should be perished from Vana'diel. SO, no regain slow gimp-WHM wannabe DNCs.

[Dragoy]

I will mainly reply to only the first post, and not the derailing or what ever it is that has been going on since. It would seem that the topic is about 'leeching experience/limit points' and not so much about 'leeching' in events like Voidwatch, or the upcoming Legion.

These are two very different kinds of 'leeching' and I wouldn't really compare them to each other and the reasons may or may not follow.

Firstly, 'leeching in an experience/limit points party'.
I think it's more just the way to level up now, instead of actually leeching and is widely accepted. If there are actually people who just go away or fool around without actually contributing at all while it is expected, it's up to the group to take action (such as let it pass or kick the individual). This (not helping the group in any way) is also the only way it can hurt you, as a member of said group, that I can think of.

I personally do not think it is good game-design. For one, the level limit for entering Abyssea should be at least around the 60-75 region but that's not how the game developer-team feels so this is how it is now. They also conceived the 'book-burns' which I never took part of, and it's just as 'bad design' as Abyssea is on that regard.
Sure, there were "Astral-burns" and such back before Abyssea, which was basically abusing a game-weakness, but not seen as an issue either, but it would seem that the developers finally decided to go with this and 'skip' a lot of the old content.

The funny thing is that I never was much for partying myself, and rather went solo/duo\trio from day one some 5 years ago, and still do. Obviously it took me a long time to level up back then, before Abyssea (where I was in an EXP-party 1 or 2 times, ever). Even so, the not-so-many-times I did level up with a regular group I did enjoy those far more than the parties that exist nowadays (yeah, I don't do them but I know I would not enjoy them the same way). One important aspect being meeting people, as others have mentioned. Sure, you meet them in Abyssea, too, but it tends to be quite different from a 6 person party (read: crowded) and relationships likely wont establish in the same amount as they used to.

I certainly can't imagine myself starting this game now, and leveling up the way most players do now. It does not seem fun, and yes, leveling up is part of a game like this, and should be... I daresay balanced! For the older players it is convenient fersure. We did it the old way, and I seriously am glad I did instead of starting now. It seems quite horrid, actually, and you probably wont see me suggesting this game to anyone unless they are really, really interested (but even so, a word of caution may be in place) and/or they have played the game before.

It's things like this that make me glad that I can level up my jobs perfectly fine (and relatively fast) by just myself using two characters (usually one is 'leeching' on the other). And no, I do not use 'windower' or any such 'enhancements' that are also known as 'cheats'. :b
I can also do anything I want to do now with just me, myself, and a friend or few. This does obviously not include Legion, and I can only defeat some of the very first 'tier' Voidwatched monsters, but I have no desire to do those so it matters not.

I don't play for the game, I play for the friend or few that are still left there.

The whole 'skipping the EXPing part' seems rather funny, because it reminds me of another game where I am a Gamemaster in, which was shut-down some time ago. For the final days, we would just do what ever the players wanted, and one of the most requested things was to be able to be of the maximum level because they never got to experience it (even though leveling up in that game was also very fast if done in a certain way). That game had/has a lot smaller community, very small, so it can't really be compared to FFXI at all in that sense, but it's like someone at the SqEX said that: "OK! Let's give them a fast way to level up and quick rewards to fool around with as which ever job they might want to within a short period of time before we pull-the-plug. Should be a fun ride, but just in case, let's add some Gargantuan time-sink and randomness as a bumper for those that complete it too fast!" So yeah, that would be sort of the same thing, but in a much larger scale.

While I say that I don't like the idea of 'skipping the EXPing part', I do agree that with 20 jobs, it does get old, and as stated, it is only the most fun for maybe the first few times. Nevertheless, I for one enjoyed joining my friends to level up another job if they happened to do that. It might be interesting if there was some sort of a bonus added for every job you leveled up to make the next one go faster?
Either way, I enjoyed feeling more powerful as I learned new job abilities and got access to better equipment, which sometimes could be a bit of a frustration due to either item availability or/and their price.
Now, all that can be skipped though not that it was always fun to find out the equipment you wanted came with a price-tag with too many numbers, or wasn't available at all. In a way this is a blessing as well, because such gear is even more non-existent than ever before.

In short(?), I think that new content should not make everything that was before completely obsolete because the old stuff will then just 'be there', taking space. There are so many things in the game, such as evoliths, monsters no one hunts any longer, pointless battlefields, that seem like a total waste of space and effort because of the production/direction\development decisions and altogether strengthens the image of a 'final ride'. Perhaps that's what the 'big plans' for the 10th anniversary is.

Ha! But I digress.

As for 'leeching' in events like Legion and whatnot, I don't really care if people in my group were to be not 'gear-swapping' and/or using the best or even average stuff they could be (whether it was for a 1% or 50% difference), because as I said, I don't play for the game. What is more important is that he/she\other does their best, and has fun while doing it!
If they're completely messing things up, or just doing nothing, well, then they shouldn't probably be there, if they are not willing to work for success but there has never been a time that I have been angry for someone messing up a fight in a way or another. It's really not that serious (for me). Again, it may mostly be due to the fact that I mainly played with my friends, only, but even on those occasions I did play/do play with strangers, I really don't care that much.

By playing alone and/or with a friend or few, I avoid all these problems so it's really not an issue to me. ^^;


In short(!), yes, leeching anything is rude if the leecher and leechee have not agreed upon it. If they have, however, I don't see a problem since that's what the developers made the game to be like and I doubt it's going to change. As mentioned, though, I don't agree it should be like this, and I don't do it myself (unless leeching on oneself counts).
There was one time when I was 'pulling' for a 'Fell Cleave' party with our Linkshell, for about 8 hours, with my other character idle. When I went to bed, I left myself there on another job so while I was indeed AFK and leeching at that point for I think 5 levels worth (from 73 to 78 I think), the 8 or so hours I was running around luring monsters about were more than adequate trade-off for that, I would think.

That's the only 'cleave' party I ever was in. After that, I've just used Dominion or other ways to level up me, myself, and my friends.

I never did quite understand getting levels without actually playing (e.g. 'botting' or leeching while totally AFK without any work put into it like in the example above) and that goes with other stuff too, like 'botting' for skills, fish, anything. I don't support paying Gil or whatever for it and then going AFK, either, but I wouldn't judge someone for doing it. I wouldn't feel comfortable with it, but the game allows it, and if that is their way to 'play', that's not my problem. ^^;


As a side-note, I wonder how people who 'worry' so much about how others play the game, and what they post around forums, can keep themselves going.
Doesn't it amount to a lot of frustration, headache, and hair pulled? :V


Wrote a lot.

Wrote a lot more actually but then I noticed I was writing a book about something pretty much irrelevant so it's the heavily cut edition now. >:Ð

Blubb ! !! !


[b]Edit:[b]

Added a little bit to the "In short(!)" section.

[Kristal]

Two things I hate about leechers:
1. Pay-for-leech shouts in Jeuno.. the sheer stupidity of people to pay for something they can get for 'free' >_<
2. Skill-up complaints on this forum by leechers... ("I leveled a job to 99 in 9 hours, but now I can't hit the broad side of a behemoth!?! Fix it, SE!!")

[Alhanelem]

The thing you fail to realize is that DNC healing is not limited in any way by its TP gain.DNC healing absolutely is limited by TP gain. Maybe not if you have maximum haste and never use steps, otherwise, you will eventually run out of TP


It's perfectly fine to play in weird, sub-optimal setups. That's your choice. But people are stupid. If you suggest them, they'll think they're good ideas, when really, you just want a lazy subpar workaround because you don't want to level or bring a WHM.They ARE good ideas, when the conditions are right. Is it the number one, best idea for everything? Of course not. Choosing not to play WHM is not choosing to be lazy, it's choosing to do what's fun and enjoyable over what's not. This is an MMORPG with thousands of players. It's not required of everyone to have all 20 jobs leveled up to 99 with full gear sets for all of them. You may have forgotten that because it's relatively easy to level up a job now. Only an elitist would demand the maximally optimal conditions for everything. Something doesn't have to be perfectly 100% optimal to work just fine and be a good, workable idea. Players do not HAVE to level up WHM to heal, players do not HAVE to level up MNK or WAR to DD or tank, players do not HAVE to level up BLM to cast damaging magic, players don't even HAVE to level up THF to get any TH anymore. If people listen to you, they'll think they HAVE to do everything the same way in order to enjoy the game or be rewarded, and that's not true.

So hey, all of you who haven't gotten all jobs 99! You're all lazy bums! Get out there and don't play any other part of the game until you have them all done and have amazing gear sets for all of them, because everyone will hate you if you're "sub-optimal!"

Leeching is hardly optimal either, but people, even elitists, do that all the time. That doesn't make any sense to me, it sounds like not practicing what one preaches.


We've established many times over in this thread that leeching is an abomination that should be perished from Vana'diel. SO, no regain slow gimp-WHM wannabe DNCs. Umm, no, we haven't established that. Also, this wasn't used in an EXP party, it was used on abyssea HNMs. I'd like to see you waltz every time the recast comes up against the game's most dangerous NMs that people generally avoid having more than 1-2 people meleeing on at a time and not run out of TP.

Leeching is doing nothing when you could be and are expected to be doing something. Leeching is NOT simply being less than 100% perfectly optimal while still actively participating. Your definition of leeching describes 99% of players who cannot obtain optimal gear or haven't been playing long enough to obtain it.

I take the jobs I play very seriously, and I do gear them all up as best I can. I also try to find creative and effective ways to use them where people don't expect. I'll ask "Is this possible?" then try it. "Hey cool, it is!" Just because one chooses to stick to a limited set of jobs, does not mean they're being "lazy."


1. Pay-for-leech shouts in Jeuno.. the sheer stupidity of people to pay for something they can get for 'free' >_< hey, it's their money, they can do what they want with it. ;)

[Arcon]

1. Pay-for-leech shouts in Jeuno.. the sheer stupidity of people to pay for something they can get for 'free' >_<

300k for 3h is not expensive. It's not even cheap. It's actually profitable for the person paying. Unless the party sucked royally, you will get more than 120k cruor, which is worth more than the 300k you paid going in. So you gained EXP and gil or cruor, in either case worth more than what you paid going in, all while you were afk, asleep or at work or whatever. So how exactly is that a bad deal?

[Tamoa]

Leeching is doing nothing when you could be and are expected to be doing something. Leeching is NOT simply being less than 100% perfectly optimal while still actively participating. Your definition of leeching describes 99% of players who cannot obtain optimal gear or haven't been playing long enough to obtain it.


Let me clarify since I feel this is partially directed at what I've been saying in previous posts in this thread.

I do not expect everybody I play with to be perfectly geared - i.e. being 100% optimal. I'm not saying you're a leech in a group setting if you don't have perfect ws gear, perfect nuke gear, perfect cure set, perfect damage mitigation gear. As long as you use what you have gear wise, and work towards improving what you can, that's absolutely fine with me. But if you are lazy and arrogant, using gimp gear, not using gearswap macros (which are there so we can in fact swap gear to improve performance) and just generally massively underperforming being dead weight to the group - then you are leeching.

[Kaych]

Figure its time for a friendly debate about this, since "Leeching" is working its way into end game.
All i ask is keep your opinions clean of insults.

As most know I dislike leeching. Now this is the art of leeching, I do not hate the players who leech. I find that it is rude to leech because your not contributing in earning the exp, or items you obtain. Your lack of effort makes other work harder then they might want to on a video game they use for relaxation. In the early days of ffxi you got kicked, insulted, had insulting shouts made about you for leeching. Heck go away for 5 min longer then stated you would get people insulting you left and right.

In my personal experience, both past and present, leeching is bad. I seen alliences go from insane exp rates to trickling exp because 30-50% of the party stop fighting/contributing. It does suck joining an aby pt and due to leeching mages.. get no TE. What i'm looking for is proof of leeching being good? How it is helping ffxi?

Well, I think that leeching makes people bad players. When I hear a THF thats lvl 40 saying "What is SATA?" Then that person dunno how to do their job.

I was in Abby the other day and this insanely bad RDM had no clue how to heal. When I confronted him and said: "As soon as someone looses HP, you need to heal. Also, the next TP move will do 1k dammage, so make sure you keep us above 1k HP so we don't get 1-shotted".

We died like flies ofc... over and over... and still he told me "I know how to do my job!" Maybe he was high or something, who knows, but the point is: in the old days you wouldnt make it passed Dunes with that lack of skill and bad attitude. Nowdays you get a bunch of people who have no clue how to do their job up to lvl 99. If SE made Abby for 65+, this wouldnt be so much a problem. But no matter how hard you whine to SE, they extreeeeemly rarely listen ^_- (except for Camate <3)

Now to the good thing about leeching: "".

[Eri]

DNC healing absolutely is limited by TP gain. Maybe not if you have maximum haste and never use steps, otherwise, you will eventually run out of TP


I on one hand can aussure you that every Dnc in their right mind have 25.6% Haste in Gear around 48% Dual Weild and whatever Store TP they can get their Hands on.

You are Never. Nerver. Are Limited by Tp Even if you not actively Meele. With the current design of Dnc recasts are the only Limit. and its a Limit that doesnt need to be changed as in Split recasts. Lowering the Waltz recast for the main Job might be in order.... we got a Discussion on the Dnc forum you may wanna join.

Now to the Leeching Topic at hand.

Didn't read everything here. Just Posting my Opinion.

First are a few Question:

Do you wanna play the game?

Do you want to be proud of what you have?

Do you want to be helpfull?


If the answer to any of these is no. Your probably Leeching.

Either Exp, Gear or whatnot. While Leeching may not concern others (as in: Everyone plays their own Game).

Its a concern in an MMO since PPL that are trying to stay 'Legit' have a lot of trouble keeping that up, with slow progress.
On the other hand with Abyssea in mind. Its so easy to get Exp in a none Leeching Way..... (unless Abyssea is considderd Leeching XD)
Afking for more than 10 min in a PT is just sorry unless its a real Emergency.... but you shoulda dropped for that XD

[Feynman]

Still once more that is their choice to go straight to 99, to stay in a few zones, and apparently not explore (what..?).
I am not seeing your point. Are you trying to say people should branch out more and move camps every 5 levels and waste time like in the old days?


As for the hostile nature of people on forums comment. Youmustbenewhere.jpg.

People by nature can tend to be hostile especially when debating what some consider to be right vs wrong.

No I'm not saying things should "be like the old days". But I'm saying if I new player wants to take his/her time exploring the game and coming to know it in something resembling the way we did (which is impossible I acknowledge), then the established/capped player base shouldn't put pressure on them to hurry up and get 99. Which I have seen. Often. And as I've mentioned I've seen this mentality push new players off the game after a month or two because they are not enjoying themselves! And yes in the end it is their choice and they choose to ignore what their ls-mates are telling them they need to do, but as Shadowsong rightly said "The game does not exist in a vacuum". A new player that is being told by most people that they need to do this can easily feel pressured into it and do whatever they are told hoping that it will get fun eventually. Problem seems to be once they get 99 they still have no clue what they are doing, what the world is like, can't take airships, chocobos, or any of things that made the world feel exciting to us when we were learning it. Then they quit. This does not serve them, the linkshell, the community, or anybody. At all.

As for, forums are hostile get over it, no. Not all forums are hostile.

And your last comment should say arguing, not debating. A healthy debate should not be hostile. The problem is that often they become that way because at least one of the people involved in the debate don't understand the nature of techniques of debate.

EDIT: And if you insist that people can't express opposing viewpoints without being hostile, please look at any post by Dragoy I've ever seen on here. I'd like to think that I remain non-hostile, but in the case that you don't agree, I truly believe he does.

[Alhanelem]

You are Never. Nerver. Are Limited by Tp Even if you not actively Meele.You're off your rocker. Show me how you can cure as often as your recast can come up without actively meleeing, without at least some regain. Reverse flourish by itself won't be enough. I won't disagree that it's not exceptionally hard to cap gear haste, but it is unacceptable to assume that every DNC will have it (and you said "even if you don't actively melee," anyway). it takes some time to get that gear however, particularly if you don't have an active LS or a few friends that are hardcore players. There is of course a difference between someone who's working toward that and someone who isn't, but you can't tell that just by looking at somebody. You don't know how long they've been playing a job.

[Arcon]

Now to the good thing about leeching: "Fast EXP which leaves more time to spend on learning to actually play the job, which you don't in any other kind of EXP situation".

Fixed that for you.


I on one hand can aussure you that every Dnc in their right mind have 25.6% Haste in Gear around 48% Dual Weild and whatever Store TP they can get their Hands on.

Haste caps at 25%.

[Alhanelem]

Haste caps at 25%. Yes, but most gear does not give exactly the stated amount of haste. Most gear actually gives less than the stated amount (I think there's one or two pieces of gear that actually give more) Because of this, you need slightly more than 25% in "advertised" haste to get 25% real actual haste.

[Kimble]

You need 26% haste in gear to truly reach 25% haste. Its just math. Unless you have one piece giving you 25%.

[Arcon]

Yes, but most gear does not give exactly the stated amount of haste. Most gear actually gives less than the stated amount (I think there's one or two pieces of gear that actually give more) Because of this, you need slightly more than 25% in "advertised" haste to get 25% real actual haste.

That doesn't make his statement any less senseless, since you can't get "25.6%" Haste from gear. Either he means true Haste cap, which is 25%, or advertised gear Haste cap, which is (currently) 26%.


You need 26% haste in gear to truly reach 25% haste. Its just math. Unless you have one piece giving you 25%.

That makes no sense. There's some gear that actually gives more Haste than what it says. If SE releases more of that, you could actually reach the cap with just 24%. And if you had one single piece with that much haste, why would it give you exactly the advertised amount? It's not always rounding errors, sometimes they just pick really stupid values. Same on lots of PDT gear.

[Kimble]

afaik, there is very few gear that gives more.[according to Krischy's testing, only Rune Chopper gave more haste value then what was shown, 94/1024 rather than 90/1024] Unless someone went and tasted every piece of gear, it would be hard to tell which pieces gives more as trying to figure out the difference between 1% and 1.07% would be extremely hard, which is why its generally safer to go with face value.

My comment about one piece of gear giving 25% haste true value was incorrect so I do apologize for that.

IE: 5% haste = 50/1024 which is 4.88%.

[Earwig]

I've started many a fight in abyssea alliances because the party leader was level 45, and was getting payed by level 30ish people to let them leech from my work. I don't have a problem with free exp, but I do have a problem with slowing everyone else down.
Paying to leech in a FC party is the way to do it!

[scaevola]

3 i'm a ps2 us launch veteran. With having my first year have ultra limited game play (2-4 hours a day).




THAT's what you call limited playtime?

[Alhanelem]

That doesn't make his statement any less senseless, since you can't get "25.6%" Haste from gear. Either he means true Haste cap, which is 25%, or advertised gear Haste cap, which is (currently) 26%.The cap is 25%, not 26%. You need 26% because most gear gives less haste than advertised.


I've started many a fight in abyssea alliances because the party leader was level 45, and was getting payed by level 30ish people to let them leech from my work. I don't have a problem with free exp, but I do have a problem with slowing everyone else down.
Paying to leech in a FC party is the way to do it!
1) paid, not payed

2)You often have 1 low level person to open boxes. This person is helping you, not slowing you down, because it would slow you down if the attackers in your party took time to open the boxes.

[Glamdring]

leeching=bad, thankfully I can kick the leech if I'm the leader, or go to a pt where people are contributing if I'm not...

For that matter I can solo most decent content now, so who needs a pt unless I WANT company

[Shadowsong]

Where did Rosina go :(
This thread is boring now

[Zerich]

A vengeful member can be much worse than a leech. IRL, you don't prank your fellow soldiers while you're under heavy fire no matter what offensive thing they've said to you. Doing so puts everyone at a greater risk, not just the guy you hate.

Same thing goes for ingame. You might not like him, but that doesn't mean he doesn't serve a purpose for you and everyone else there. Refusing to help him is refusing to help your group. Refusing to help your group makes you a leech. Being a leech makes his claim true.

Granted, I wasn't there to see the specifics, but "He said something mean" is never a good reason to not help him when you're both part of a larger group working towards a goal.

i didn't leave him dead in a zone, but he was just being a douche, he was spamming /p chat with general rude-speak.
but if he was dead before the nm dropped, i didn't see the importance of raising them before the nm died.

[Zerich]

Two things I hate about leechers:
1. Pay-for-leech shouts in Jeuno.. the sheer stupidity of people to pay for something they can get for 'free' >_<
2. Skill-up complaints on this forum by leechers... ("I leveled a job to 99 in 9 hours, but now I can't hit the broad side of a behemoth!?! Fix it, SE!!")

who complains like that? if there are people like that, just /blist add <player's name> they aren't worth interacting with. :cool:

[Arcon]

The cap is 25%, not 26%. You need 26% because most gear gives less haste than advertised.

That's what I said.

[Eri]

You're off your rocker. Show me how you can cure as often as your recast can come up without actively meleeing, without at least some regain. Reverse flourish by itself won't be enough. I won't disagree that it's not exceptionally hard to cap gear haste, but it is unacceptable to assume that every DNC will have it (and you said "even if you don't actively melee," anyway). it takes some time to get that gear however, particularly if you don't have an active LS or a few friends that are hardcore players. There is of course a difference between someone who's working toward that and someone who isn't, but you can't tell that just by looking at somebody. You don't know how long they've been playing a job.


Not actively Meeleing could mean your useing Steps Backside (they work while turned form the Mob if you are in meele range) On a Sidenote i never said 'No Ragain' Atamacitye, Atma, /Sam, Rolls , Moonshade ..... all of which are technical possibiltys .... no tp limit, unless you are afking.

Beside Yeah i was refeereing to the Fact that haste Gear gives slightly lower values than they state to give.

[SNK]

Sadly I know a guy who's BST was leeched to 99 in Abyessa. He sends me a tell after playing the job for 3 months farming Dynamis never realizing what Snarl was...


...I laughed.... and died inside a little at the same time...

[Alhanelem]

Not actively Meeleing could mean your useing Steps Backside (they work while turned form the Mob if you are in meele range)You didn't read my posts or you'd know I already do this and took that into account. Reverse Flourish by itself is not enough to keep you going by itself if you're curing continously and not actually hitting the mob.


He sends me a tell after playing the job for 3 months farming Dynamis never realizing what Snarl was...Leech to 99 or not, it shouldn't take you 3 months to figure out what your abilities do. Especially since, you know, they have help text that says what they do.

[Tsuneo]

People still seem to think that being retarded is a side effect of leeching. It's like people don't remember all the retarded players back during 75 cap.

[Sagagemini]

The main problem I see you have with the new system is you still consider EXPing as content. Myself, my friends, my linkshell, and people I've talked to all hate EXPing. Exping is the obstacle between you and fun, it's not the fun itself. If i can help someone get a job passed the uselessness, and maybe in the future they can do the same with me, all the power to us. Anything I can do to help others get to 99 and therefore useful, I will.
Once you realize we do not find EXPing fun, you will realize why we wish to get through it as soon as possible, and dont mind helping others do the same.

TL;DR- If people found leeching to be rude, no one would let people do it. They do, so who cares?

edit: I know you are going to bring up "people not learning their jobs" so heres my retort to that: Not a single aspect of this game takes longer than 20 minutes to become a pro at. Not a single thing. An infant could play this game



You hate expying because you and those who liked you are not RPGers, just gear whore collectors, playing a barbie game with many dresses.

[Arcon]

You hate expying because you and those who liked you are not RPGers, just gear whore collectors, playing a barbie game with many dresses.

You say that as if you even knew what RPG means. I don't care for gear and I absolutely hate EXPing too. The role I assume isn't the one of Arcon the Crabslaughterer or He Who Made Robber Crabs Go Extinct. It's sad if that's what you call an RPG, and not just because it's wrong but mostly because your imagination seems to be limited to something that low.

Real skill isn't gained through EXP and it never was. Real skill is from defeating high tier notorious monsters or completing high ranking missions. Content that requires actual skill, not a high number. And no matter how many crabs you kill you will never attain that and you will never expand your character that way. You'll just be the same noob at a higher level. Exactly the same as everything you accuse leechers of being.

[Sagagemini]

You say that as if you even knew what RPG means. I don't care for gear and I absolutely hate EXPing too. The role I assume isn't the one of Arcon the Crabslaughterer or He Who Made Robber Crabs Go Extinct. It's sad if that's what you call an RPG, and not just because it's wrong but mostly because your imagination seems to be limited to something that low.

Real skill isn't gained through EXP and it never was. Real skill is from defeating high tier notorious monsters or completing high ranking missions. Content that requires actual skill, not a high number. And no matter how many crabs you kill you will never attain that and you will never expand your character that way. You'll just be the same noob at a higher level. Exactly the same as everything you accuse leechers of being.


If you don't like leveling then your just another The Sims player. Leveling exists in RPG since Dungeons & Dragons, something that you prob never heard of, and if you did you are just plain stupid. Newfags like you dont know whats the journey about, adventures of getting a teleport-altep with a bunch of 40's. You want max level and then the game begins for you, the sort of mentality we can only expect from a WoW player or worse. You talk about skill, go solo Genbu (when nobody ever thought it was possible to solo a god) at 75 like Avesta did or soloing ODS, not brewing stuff for 9999hp and 999stats. You are not skilled, you're pathethic for thinking you're great with super powered Abyssea stuff.

You prob never felt an accomplishment of getting your first 75 or got mad from leveling down because you got it all spoon fed. Or you forgot that you had these feelings and became just another sad player hunting for endless gear hunger and nothing else matter in the game for you.

I got 75 when the endgame area for exp was boyada tree. I finished ZM, COP and TOUA when cap was 75 and COP wasn't nerfed, no Exp band, no Fields of Valor, no Colibri to reach 75. You don't know crap about adventures, about train mobs in Kazham, about killing Dynamis Lord at 75 without relics.


Sad to have ppl like you in a MMO RPG. Now go back bragging about your Notorious Monsters defeated from Abyssea. Might make you feel proud of yourself in the end of the day.

[detlef]

If you don't like leveling then your just another The Sims player. Leveling exists in RPG since Dungeons & Dragons, something that you prob never heard of, and if you did you are just plain stupid. Newfags like you dont know whats the journey about, adventures of getting a teleport-altep with a bunch of 40's. You want max level and then the game begins for you, the sort of mentality we can only expect from a WoW player or worse. You talk about skill, go solo Genbu (when nobody ever thought it was possible to solo a god) at 75 like Avesta did or soloing ODS, not brewing stuff for 9999hp and 999stats. You are not skilled, you're pathethic for thinking you're great with super powered Abyssea stuff.

You prob never felt an accomplishment of getting your first 75 or got mad from leveling down because you got it all spoon fed. Or you forgot that you had these feelings and became just another sad player hunting for endless gear hunger and nothing else matter in the game for you.
I loved the journey. The first time. I didn't care for the journey as much each subsequent time. After doing it enough times I decided that the destination was more important. Can you imagine taking jobs to 99 at 4k xp per hour? Seriously? C'mon now.


I got 75 when the endgame area for exp was boyada tree. I finished ZM, COP and TOUA when cap was 75 and COP wasn't nerfed, no Exp band, no Fields of Valor, no Colibri to reach 75. You don't know crap about adventures, about train mobs in Kazham, about killing Dynamis Lord at 75 without relics.

Sad to have ppl like you in a MMO RPG. Now go back bragging about your Notorious Monsters defeated from Abyssea. Might make you feel proud of yourself in the end of the day.
Yes those are lovely accomplishments. I did those same things twice. That doesn't seem to have anything to do with leeching though. I thought we were talking about leeching.

[Eri]

I loved the journey. The first time. I didn't care for the journey as much each subsequent time. After doing it enough times I decided that the destination was more important. Can you imagine taking jobs to 99 at 4k xp per hour? Seriously? C'mon now.


Frist off Abyssea at Lvl 30 and book Partys inclueding a Hoghlevel Character are Leeching in my Book.

Secondary i dont mind the new Additions to Exp as long as they are not abused.

Most importantly tho you mention that the journey to 99 was fun to you, for the first time.
There are newer Players thu that may just take the way for the first time.

If there are no opportunitys for them to experince the Journey?
Because older players burn low and midlevel, so you see its up to ppl to give newer players this chance.

The Mentality of... ' I did it once, not doing it again' is the problem. And you cant justfy it. It's just not right to steal others fun.

[Bled]

Frist off Abyssea at Lvl 30 and book Partys inclueding a Hoghlevel Character are Leeching in my Book.

Secondary i dont mind the new Additions to Exp as long as they are not abused.

Most importantly tho you mention that the journey to 99 was fun to you, for the first time.
There are newer Players thu that may just take the way for the first time.

If there are no opportunitys for them to experince the Journey?
Because older players burn low and midlevel, so you see its up to ppl to give newer players this chance.

The Mentality of... ' I did it once, not doing it again' is the problem. And you cant justfy it. It's just not right to steal others fun.

Final Fantasy 11 2003 (when i started playing) =/= Final Fantasy 11 2012

Final Fantasy 11 was once a lively world with a pretty high population on servers and a good flow of vets and new players. Now Final Fantasy 11 has a much lower population and needs to compete with AAA MMO's... the game had to evolve. I played back before the end of CoP and enjoyed every second of the journey and wouldn't trade that for anything, however i would be dense to think i could have the same EXACT journey in such an old game. When a MMO becomes outdated and depopulated development shifts to bringing the small community closer, which is most easily done by bringing everyone into end game as fast as possible.

My only complaint is the dead world, which could be solved by creating new dynamic content in the old world.

Games are meant to be played for enjoyment, people need to make their own "in game" experiences rather then hoping its handed to them. I may not be having the same exact adventure i had in 2003, however i am thoroughly enjoying my new adventure in 2012.

[detlef]

Frist off Abyssea at Lvl 30 and book Partys inclueding a Hoghlevel Character are Leeching in my Book.

Secondary i dont mind the new Additions to Exp as long as they are not abused.

Most importantly tho you mention that the journey to 99 was fun to you, for the first time.
There are newer Players thu that may just take the way for the first time.

If there are no opportunitys for them to experince the Journey?
Because older players burn low and midlevel, so you see its up to ppl to give newer players this chance.
The journey I was referring to was doing things for the first time. Things like doing missions for the story and fighting powerful monsters. Getting to Jeuno the first time. Things like that. As for leveling, I was relieved when I hit 75 and I ended up not leveling another job for many years. I hated meriting. The actual leveling experience was not precious to me.


The Mentality of... ' I did it once, not doing it again' is the problem. And you cant justfy it. It's just not right to steal others fun.
Please explain how this mentality is a problem at all. Are we complaining about new players being robbed of this experience of whacking crabs for hours on end for a fraction of a level? Fighting over colibri camps at 75? Subjecting them to terrible XP (<2k an hour at low levels, <4k an hour at higher levels) is a sure way to make them quit. Are you saying you want them to suffer in order to earn their high level? What do you have against new players? In this day and age do you think it's okay for someone to require 11 hours per level at 75? I don't think so.

[Eri]

Please explain how this mentality is a problem at all. Are we complaining about new players being robbed of this experience of whacking crabs for hours on end for a fraction of a level? Fighting over colibri camps at 75? Subjecting them to terrible XP (<2k an hour at low levels, <4k an hour at higher levels) is a sure way to make them quit. Are you saying you want them to suffer in order to earn their high level? What do you have against new players? In this day and age do you think it's okay for someone to require 11 hours per level at 75? I don't think so.

Because it is actually fun/a good feeling if you waited to get it, worked towards it. It can be a Level it can be a Piece of Gear. It can be a hard mission you finshed.

Now if you get everything handed to you.... how is that fun...

The newer Players will have what they wanted in a short time. And just leave.

No feeling of accomplishment if it wasnt hard work.

[Kimble]

Your idea of fun/good feeling, isn't the same as everyones, sorry.

[Arcon]

If you don't like leveling then your just another The Sims player. Leveling exists in RPG since Dungeons & Dragons, something that you prob never heard of, and if you did you are just plain stupid. Newfags like you dont know whats the journey about, adventures of getting a teleport-altep with a bunch of 40's. You want max level and then the game begins for you, the sort of mentality we can only expect from a WoW player or worse.

You just don't get it. We're saying the same thing, only that you think the journey is slaughtering a shitload of crabs. The journey begins at endgame. Everyone entering endgame is a noob at first. You're confusing experience points with actual experience. You think getting experience points somehow makes you stronger or better. It doesn't. All it does is give you a higher level. You're still a noob, no matter how many crabs you kill. The real experience comes with the things you just stated. Soloing Genbu or ODS or even doing them in a group. Doing Dynamis, employing different strategies, sleep kiting, timed nuking, terrain kiting fast enemies, using the correct gear for each situation, all of these things is what makes your journey and what will, eventually, make you a good player.


You prob never felt an accomplishment of getting your first 75 or got mad from leveling down because you got it all spoon fed. Or you forgot that you had these feelings and became just another sad player hunting for endless gear hunger and nothing else matter in the game for you.

I got 75 when the endgame area for exp was boyada tree. I finished ZM, COP and TOUA when cap was 75 and COP wasn't nerfed, no Exp band, no Fields of Valor, no Colibri to reach 75. You don't know crap about adventures, about train mobs in Kazham, about killing Dynamis Lord at 75 without relics.

Would you please stop assuming shit about me? You don't know me. I did all of these things you feel so proud of. I also did slow ass EXP, and I didn't feel stronger or better for getting it. The first time I entered Dynamis I was still a noob and didn't know jack shit. I finished all missions at 75, including WotG as soon as they were released with the level cap increase. I know about "RUN FER YER LIFEZ GOBLIN OTW TO SELBINA ZONE" shouts, and it was even fun the first two or three times. After that it got annoying. There was no skill, no variety, nothing involved that I would call entertainment or content of value. It was just an endless grind. And that is not what RPG are about, despite what you may think.


Sad to have ppl like you in a MMO RPG. Now go back bragging about your Notorious Monsters defeated from Abyssea. Might make you feel proud of yourself in the end of the day.

I thought it was well established that I'm one of the Abyssea-haters on this forum, which seems to annoy people a lot. I hate brews and Atma and overbuffed content. I hate temp item spam and I hate mobs designed around that. I loved a lot of old content. I did Dynamis, Limbus, Einherjar regularly, I led several sky and sea events and I had an amazing time doing it. I learned a lot during that time and that's why I consider that the real journey. As much as I hate hippie sayings, "every end of a journey is the beginning of a new one" is actually true in almost every way, especially in this case. If you don't see it then I'd say it's your vision of an RPG that's skewed, not mine.

[Dragoy]

I don't think anyone is saying that the old yield of Experience/Limit Points of monsters was a good thing, in its own.

The old ways did bring people closer, though, and made the experience of the journey far more interesting. Again, not saying it should take ages; this was about leeching after all, and how this game is not just about the 'end-game' to everyone.
It is to some, but not to everyone. We are all different which makes it fun, and worthwhile in the long run. ^^;

So as an argument 'the end-game is where it starts' works as well as saying you like briefs so you don't understand why someone else wouldn't use them, methinks.

[Doombringer]

i don't mind leeching so much as i mind worthless players who THINK they aren't leeching just because they're not afk.

fun story, a while back a friend levels thf. now he needs merits for thf. so he happens to join an alliance while all of us are on.. so we figure why not, lets go help him cap those off. he brings his masamune sam, another friend brings his almace blu, another friend brings his kannagi nin, and i bring my not-ukon war (i am such the black sheep <.< i have an almace and my war has everything a DD could want EXCEPT a ukon but now that i tell this story i feel like the weakest link)

all 4 of us have the gear and atmas you would hope one would have at lvl 99. not ideal sets, but DRAMATICALLY above average. (except for my not-ukon :()

we also bring a lvl 99 whm mule. the idea is to park him at the edge of the mobs, just out of agro range, and if we eventually get whittled down we can run over to him and get healed up. (any one of us can EASILY solo an xp mob.. several in a row.... but you take dmg little by little..)

so a lil' ways in... a lvl 70 pup starts getting all uppity about the whm "leeching".. since the whm just stands there and doesn't follow the pup around PLing him...

it was obvious my friends and i were carrying the alliance. any one of us was already out-doing EVERY one of them.... and i wouldn't have minded that.. wouldn't have even said anything... if one hadn't felt the need to accuse our mule of leeching... but he did..

so i fucking said it: "he CAN'T leech because he's here with that guy, that guy, that guy, and this guy." which should have been the end of it... but it wasn't... so: "He IS healing people, he's just not following YOUR gimp ass around because you take 15 minutes to kill a mob and would have been monopolizing his time! protip: if you can't even solo ONE aby xp mob, stop TRYING to solo mobs!?! pick a competent player and follow them around. as is you'd be more helpful doing NOTHING! you're just an mp sponge. you are of NEGATIVE use here guy."


yah.. was he leeching? he wasn't afk.. but he certainly was sucking. i'd have rather had a non-paying afk lvl 30 than him. in the long run he didn't REALLY affect us much, we let him die rather than sponge mp.. but he certainly ruined my mellow....

[Asymptotic]

DNC healing absolutely is limited by TP gain. Maybe not if you have maximum haste and never use steps, otherwise, you will eventually run out of TP

For every 20 tp you spend on steps, you get 100 tp back from reverse flourish. You need to learn to play DNC better, or learn something about the job.



They ARE good ideas, when the conditions are right. Is it the number one, best idea for everything? Of course not. Choosing not to play WHM is not choosing to be lazy, it's choosing to do what's fun and enjoyable over what's not. This is an MMORPG with thousands of players.

I didn't say you had to level WHM. I said that if you need a dedicated healer, you should just bring one, instead of using a shitty one (regain slow DNC). Since we're talking about Abyssea, though, there's barely anything you need a healer for. If you have a DNC, and you're low on healing, you're better off throwing the DNC on it with DD atmas because they probably won't take as much damage as any other job would.



It's not required of everyone to have all 20 jobs leveled up to 99 with full gear sets for all of them. You may have forgotten that because it's relatively easy to level up a job now. Only an elitist would demand the maximally optimal conditions for everything.

I have 4 jobs at 99. 3 of them are geared.



Something doesn't have to be perfectly 100% optimal to work just fine and be a good, workable idea.
No it doesn't. This still doesn't make slowed-regain DNC a good idea for a healer.



Players do not HAVE to level up WHM to heal, players do not HAVE to level up MNK or WAR to DD or tank, players do not HAVE to level up BLM to cast damaging magic, players don't even HAVE to level up THF to get any TH anymore. If people listen to you, they'll think they HAVE to do everything the same way in order to enjoy the game or be rewarded, and that's not true.

I said none of these things.



So hey, all of you who haven't gotten all jobs 99! You're all lazy bums! Get out there and don't play any other part of the game until you have them all done and have amazing gear sets for all of them, because everyone will hate you if you're "sub-optimal!"

I only hate you if you're a crappy player. Number of jobs levelled has no bearing on this. If the best you could think of to do with your DNC was put on regain atmas and stand back and waltz, then you're a crappy player.



Leeching is hardly optimal either, but people, even elitists, do that all the time. That doesn't make any sense to me, it sounds like not practicing what one preaches.

How is getting XP while AFK when I wouldn't otherwise be on the game not optimal?



Umm, no, we haven't established that.

Whoosh.


Also, this wasn't used in an EXP party, it was used on abyssea HNMs. I'd like to see you waltz every time the recast comes up against the game's most dangerous NMs that people generally avoid having more than 1-2 people meleeing on at a time and not run out of TP.

ITT: 2010
Also calling Abyssea NMs dangerous doesn't speak much for your credibility.
If we're talking about NMs that are actually dangerous, we're talking Arch Dynamis Lord, Arch Diabolos, potentially Arch Angra Mainyu, and maybe Voidwatch. DNC has no business healing in any of those events.

Personally, I tanked everything in Abyssea on DNC ... from Glavoid to Rani, because this was its most effective use at the time.



Leeching is doing nothing when you could be and are expected to be doing something. Leeching is NOT simply being less than 100% perfectly optimal while still actively participating. Your definition of leeching describes 99% of players who cannot obtain optimal gear or haven't been playing long enough to obtain it.

No, my definition of leeching is a DNC being useless. The job has a terrible enough reputation without bad players making it worse.



I take the jobs I play very seriously, and I do gear them all up as best I can. I also try to find creative and effective ways to use them where people don't expect. I'll ask "Is this possible?" then try it. "Hey cool, it is!" Just because one chooses to stick to a limited set of jobs, does not mean they're being "lazy."

hey, it's their money, they can do what they want with it. ;)

Like I said, I have 4 jobs, 3 of which are geared. But you know what? You're right. It's a MMO. If you don't want to level X job that makes Y event more efficient, take someone else who does.

[hexxen]

So here is my two cents:

1) Exping is a HUGE part of RPGs but it was enjoyable in FFXI for a long time. I LOVED making parties and going and killing dhamels in Bibiki and Puddings in Mt.Z (though that could be done solo but was still a blast). The fact is I left before Abyssea arrived and now that I am back I ONLY Exp in Aby. It probably isn't impossible but putting together a regular party to just go have fun is something that you can pretty much NOT DO ANYMORE. On there is no low level gear on the AH (at least on my server) so gearing low level jobs so you could party is actually pretty intense and time consuming collecting crafters to make it for you. So LEECHING (Keying or KI holding (dont know what this one is though) or paying) is your only option now. This means that EXPing is now not interesting at all and insanely stupid. I have fallen asleep on parties before and woke up to be 99 and sent tells to people thanking them. I agree with the statement that EXPn is no longer a factor in FFXI even though it is an RPG. Thus, Leeching is OK in my book wither it be Keyers or out right leechers.

2) The second kind of leeching out side of exp is the MASS AMOUNT OF PEARL and Peptobismal people. FFXI is all about gear. Why would you level a job and not gear it if you are going to actually use it? Gear swaps DO MATTER. Emp gear is CAKE to get. Most of is can be soloed on several jobs but there is never really a reason to because other people are always lookn for the other seals cause everyone has every job now. What is even more laughable is the people who get Emps for jobs that they are still using Pearl on. Why go after the harder stuff first? I would agree that the person who created this thread through her own admition is a leech when it comes to not exp parties with the gear and stuff she/he (it is a mithra after all) chooses. Because so many people level jobs like this now it is now policy within my group that if we need a few extra hands for procs we check gear before we set out. You can not kill ADL or Botulos Rex with an Askar SAM or a a teal BLM.

So to wrap up. Leeching is neither good nor bad in exp parties because it has become a necessity in the game. Real parties no longer exist on a frequent enough basis to be a viable option. Leeching end game by being gimp and not realizing you are wrong when you say gear swaps only take up inventory is BAD.

[Krashport]

Thread topic: Leeching in video games. Good or bad?

Play Final Fantasy XI how you want to play and enjoy yourself, After all it's just a game, There is no wrong or right way to play "any" Game, I will say this though.. there is always ways to become better at games if one so chooses if not that's fine to, To each their own it's your time and money. The cool part is that in time you'll become better anyways. Does this effect me or should it effect anyone else? No; Why? Cause I choose to be there.

QQ (Crying) on the forums about how others play a game. Most people are laughing and its surely not with you. Seems "these" kinda of people (You know who you are) been playing Final Fantasy XI a bit hard... mostly anything within this game can be solo/duo/trio. Just enjoy yourself it's your time and money as well and if you can't go play an offline game or go grab a coda, Cause this game will go on without you trust me. People choose to join parties for chatting/leeching/KI holding/keys/melee/healing/chillin/smokin/meet others/drinkin/nukin/skillups/support/TE/f@ck!n~the list goes on...

[Rezeak]

Leeching in video games. Good or bad?

Neither

Honestly i play with a group of friends and plenty of times one of us has made and the rest of us have leeched who cares if pple have an issue with that they can drop party the thing is most pple are to lazy to make there own none leech partys so w/e leeching is easy.

Honestly exp is boring anyway it's just bad game design that makes me leech if there was more to it i'd enjoy it.

ps love joining a NM trail hunting group going to bed and having 4/4 done ^^.

[Asymptotic]

trail

Trial of the Magians

[Collavoce]

What I've noticed the most recently is that there is a big divide between the people who like taking their time and going through the whole process and people who want to do endgame ASAP. I think SE should really take a good look at the Everquest model and look into making servers with different functionalities/rules.

I would definitely sign up for a more oldschool server, since it would be easier to start at the same level as a community. Based on how popular the new and progression servers are on EQ, I think FFXI would benefit greatly.

[hiko]

I got 75 when the endgame area for exp was boyada tree. I finished ZM, COP and TOUA when cap was 75 and COP wasn't nerfed, no Exp band, no Fields of Valor, no Colibri to reach 75. You don't know crap about adventures, about train mobs in Kazham, about killing Dynamis Lord at 75 without relics.



so did I. My sam was 75, close to full merit when ToAU was released, finished cop before any nerf.also killed DL @75 without relic (before 2handed weapon buff).



You prob never felt an accomplishment of getting your first 75 or got mad from leveling down because you got it all spoon fed.
I did. but I enjoyed so much the journey that i got my 2nd 75 in campain when you could get XP from AFKing fortification and didnt lvl any other job over sub lvl the (boring) old way. FFXI XP system fail!


Or you forgot that you had these feelings and became just another sad player hunting for endless gear hunger and nothing else matter in the game for you.
No I just do what I enjoy doing. Bashing monster for hours for half a lvl is not something I enjoy!
I was still doing dyna after my jobs was 5/5, limbus while I couldn't equip homam nor nashira
How can you call me a "sad player hunting for endless gear"

[Shadowsong]

What I've noticed the most recently is that there is a big divide between the people who like taking their time and going through the whole process and people who want to do endgame ASAP.

This is true, but only one of the two paths is encouraged by SE. If people like taking their time, maybe they should play a newer MMO that is just starting out (ie much slower)

[Loshiniloi]

In terms of leaching I can say is that it will get you higher in the levels yes. But you have to draw the line somewhere when it comes down to skills on the battlefield. High levels don't count for jack squat when can't land a hit on a monster. If people plan to leach a job just put certain "spots" along the line so you can stop and skill up. When I Abyssea my BLU from 45 to 60, I stopped at 60 so I could skill up my Blue Magic, sword was already high because I had leveled PLD. Just put stop points on a job so you can skill up and learn how the job works. Flying from 45 or so to 99 and saying "I know what I'm doing on this job" and actually KNOWING what to do are two separate things.

[Arcon]

Just put stop points on a job so you can skill up and learn how the job works.

Why stop points? Why not get all the leveling done at once and then learn how the job works? There's more opportunities to learn about the job at higher levels than lower, unless you actually do content at 80~90, like try to solo sea or sky or things like that. Apart from that it's best to shoot for the top and then devote time and patience to the job.

[Dallas]

If it weren't for leeching, there'd only be 2-3 SMN per server. Almost all of them were invited to exp parties based on subjob skills.

[Loshiniloi]

Why stop points? Why not get all the leveling done at once and then learn how the job works? There's more opportunities to learn about the job at higher levels than lower, unless you actually do content at 80~90, like try to solo sea or sky or things like that. Apart from that it's best to shoot for the top and then devote time and patience to the job.

That is true, I completely agree with you. But when you take into account of how easy Sky and Sea is if you have a good stratrgy and job layout put together its really just treating your experience with kid gloves or no gloves at all.

[Alhanelem]

For every 20 tp you spend on steps, you get 100 tp back from reverse flourish. You need to learn to play DNC better, or learn something about the job.I can spend more than 100 TP in the time it takes to do 2 steps. You need to learn to play DNC better, or learn something about the job.


No, my definition of leeching is a DNC being useless. The job has a terrible enough reputation without bad players making it worse.And my definition of trolling is this quotation. What planet are you on where DNC has a 'terrible' reputation anyway? Last I checked every DD on the planet loved haste samba and steps if nothing else.

DNC can be used in many ways in many situations in many events. They're not useless, and a couple of people with an unusual means of handling a problem situation does not detract from any intelligent person's opinion of the job. And by 'intelligent' I mean an IQ greater than that of a smart rock.


You're right. It's a MMO. If you don't want to level X job that makes Y event more efficient, take someone else who does.Well, duh. This is why it's called a massively multiplayer role playing game. You're SUPPOSED to pool your capabilties with other players, inviting other people who play the classes you don't if you really need them. Frankly though, that unless a WHM is absolutely required for an event, I really don't give a damn who does the healing as long as people don't die. WHMs don't make enemies die faster, they make *you* NOT die faster. If other people can make you *not die* fast enough, then the WHM's impact on your 'make them die' efficiency is zero.


Number of jobs levelled has no bearing on this.You say this now, but any elitist will tell you to go level another job if you don't have the most optimal one. "PUP? No thanks, go level WAR plz! SMN? DNC? SCH? Go level WHM plz. DRK? lolDRK." It's nice if you don't use number of jobs leveled as an indicator of how good a player is, but it happens far too often.


Also calling Abyssea NMs dangerous doesn't speak much for your credibility.There are abyssea NMs that can be called "dangerous" if you aren't using a brew. My credibility isn't hurting at all.

Troll bait taken, hope you were happy and had popcorn ready. Leeching? well, I'd post something on topic, but I've already repeated my thoughts there a few times already. Leeching is only bad if someone your group didn't specifically allow to leech is leeching when he/she was needed for a real purpose.

[Zerich]

wait, there are people who still play dnc as a healing job...

[Ritsuka]

Its not only skill you need but its also good gear. Avesta didn't get that good in 20 mins dear. And if you don't know who that is check out youtube. Was soloing stuff at lvl 75 when that was the level cap =o

[Eri]

wait, there are people who still play dnc as a healing job...

There are. Being one of those i can tell you... despite the ocasional 'Spot Healing' you are Petty Mutch sitting on you Tp. Not Wsing at a Time where its save to ws is a 'Sin'
but not being able to make up for that tp (you lost in WSing) is a gearter 'sin'. And haveing Saber Dance doesnt mean you have to put it on all Day.....


.... And by 'intelligent' I mean an IQ greater than that of a smart rock.
Starting to like you~ made my day!

[Archmage]

Is it bad or good?

-Here is why I think it is a bad thing... there is no fun in having to pay every where for EXP/Merit and I dont like having to fork about 450k-500k to a RMT that I just know going to sell my gil to make RL cash :mad: or make Relics. It seams that you cant even PT in Pal Mines or Abyssea without paying

-Here is the good things... you can get your levels very fast and dont need to be by the game and do something else and if you need you can get 30 merits just like that :p

Other Notes:
Abyssea Leach needs to be at less 70+ to enter Like Dynamis
and its not like your paying for your skills ups lol :P

[Lordos]

What i think about leeching. FC party i guess everyone is agreeing with me that leeching. For me is even Keying leeching or going afk more then 5 minute it's leeching. FC is like a cheat ingame, after the cheat you are max lvl it not so fast like a cheat but hase same effect. Keying is also a cheat you are abusing a Bug ingame for getting faster exp. Yeah it not so bad like FC leeching but still bad. I missing the old exp party i had so much fun even it took so long it was fun. I have no plan's in lvling any job because lvl is boring 2 lvl, Book burn no thanks -.- 18 ppl abusing a ep mob :X. For me even Book burn with 18 ppl kind of leeching.

Leeching is Bad without question. Cheating and Leeching is same. Lvling is a part of the game (for me the bigst part), and when you take this part away, what remains??? noting tbh.

[Zerich]

Leeching is Bad without question. Cheating and Leeching is same. Lvling is a part of the game (for me the bigst part), and when you take this part away, what remains??? noting tbh.

3rd party tools is cheating.

Leeching is getting past the (never was fun, never will be) grind that exists in all mmo's, without wasting your life.

[Arcon]

Keying is also a cheat you are abusing a Bug ingame for getting faster exp.

No. This is not a bug, this was deliberately done by SE. You can tell easily, because they already had a working system that would lower EXP rewards if the level difference between party members was too great, namely the regular old EXP system. Yet they decided, for some reason, to remove the EXP penalty for that. Why do you think that was? Do you think they accidentally rewrote the entire EXP system?

It also shows that they considered the case of low level players, which is why don't get any EXP at first, until you kill a bunch of mobs, if your level is too low.


Lvling is a part of the game (for me the bigst part), and when you take this part away, what remains??? noting tbh.

Then what do all those cheaters do with all the time they save by cheating EXP, if there is nothing else? That's one of the most ignorant opinions I've ever heard. It seems like you've never done anything but EXP in your whole FFXI career. Let me ask you, seeing how you're Lv99, what do you do currently?

[Shadowsong]

Lvling is a part of the game (for me the bigst part), and when you take this part away, what remains??? noting tbh.

False, and incredibly ignorant. I have not exped more than about 3-4 hours in the past ~6 months, and I play everyday. How do you explain that?
I'm obviously just sitting in Jeuno doing nothing........... /sarcasm off.

There are many people in this thread who would agree with you that they enjoy leveling, but not a single person would agree with you that "nothing remains" besides it. How long have you been playing anyway?

[Doombringer]

What i think about leeching. FC party i guess everyone is agreeing with me that leeching. For me is even Keying leeching or going afk more then 5 minute it's leeching. FC is like a cheat ingame, after the cheat you are max lvl it not so fast like a cheat but hase same effect. Keying is also a cheat you are abusing a Bug ingame for getting faster exp. Yeah it not so bad like FC leeching but still bad. I missing the old exp party i had so much fun even it took so long it was fun. I have no plan's in lvling any job because lvl is boring 2 lvl, Book burn no thanks -.- 18 ppl abusing a ep mob :X. For me even Book burn with 18 ppl kind of leeching.

Leeching is Bad without question. Cheating and Leeching is same. Lvling is a part of the game (for me the bigst part), and when you take this part away, what remains??? noting tbh.


jesus fuck can i anti-like a post? like this is so insane that i don't feel the need to dissect it and respond to it bit by bit, because i know everyone else will also view it as insane... but you still gotta voice some discontent or else he might view silence as consent or agreement.... so yah... ANTI-LIKE!!!

-1!

[Lordos]

I want 2 lvl my job normal, i dont need damm book or Abyssea party, because off ppl dont want lvl in a normal party you are forced 2 do book and abyssea. It not fair for ppl the want lvl normal and it not fun 2.

@Zerich
Lol, you're contradicting yourself, gaming is a waist or time.

@Arcon
1. When everyone take key the dont need any low lvl char do 2 this. ANd you dont even need key play the minigame, i lvl Solo from 95-99 in abyssea wihtout key and stay there like 3h and had 200 left when i left.
2. Questen if you have done all the Mission and finshed quest and you got some good gear for 3 job. The only think left is lvling. Yeah ppl nowdays stay in port Jeuno semi afk waiting for shout lol that what ppl do -.- boring

@Shadowsong
1. Hmm you better have exp a little how you can be 96 rng O.o? /sarcasm off
Well you dont more then 6 hour 2 get a job 2 99 lol.
2. I never sayed that. There is only lvling remind guess this is missunderstoond

@Doombringer
I dislike your post 2 wtf is up with you dont need rude. /ignorelist

[Zerich]

@Zerich
Lol, you're contradicting yourself, gaming is a waist or time.


Is this a question about waist size or time?...

What?

[Shadowsong]

@Shadowsong
1. Hmm you better have exp a little how you can be 96 rng O.o? /sarcasm off
Well you dont more then 6 hour 2 get a job 2 99 lol.
A) RNG is not my main
B) RNG went from 90-96 blue proccing NMs, not EXPing


2. I never sayed that. There is only lvling remind guess this is missunderstoond

No, you said exactly this, there is no "misunderstoond"


Lvling is a part of the game (for me the bigst part), and when you take this part away, what remains??? noting tbh.

Get out

[Shadowsong]

@Arcon
1. When everyone take key the dont need any low lvl char do 2 this. ANd you dont even need key play the minigame, i lvl Solo from 95-99 in abyssea wihtout key and stay there like 3h and had 200 left when i left.
2. Questen if you have done all the Mission and finshed quest and you got some good gear for 3 job. The only think left is lvling. Yeah ppl nowdays stay in port Jeuno semi afk waiting for shout lol that what ppl do -.- boring

...and holy crap I think my eyes are bleeding

[Arcon]

...and holy crap I think my eyes are bleeding

It's those Germans.


Questen if you have done all the Mission and finshed quest and you got some good gear for 3 job. The only think left is lvling. Yeah ppl nowdays stay in port Jeuno semi afk waiting for shout lol that what ppl do -.- boring

"Some good gear"? Do you know how long it takes to get some of the better gear options? People don't wait for shouts for nothing. I still do Dynamis, Einherjar, Salvage, Voidwatch, Abyssea and even Limbus. And that's just regular events. I camp some NMs (like that damn Elel) and farm sea for JoL/AV pops and will probably do Legion soon. And my biggest timesink is probably helping LS people with other things, because the game is not just played for yourself. Seal parties, Abyssea NM hunts, sky farming, missions/quests, etc. I haven't leveled in over a year and I played constantly throughout that time.

Why do you want to be Lv99? If there's nothing for you to do at 99, why do you even level your jobs? Just so you can brag about having done it? I do it because I wanna use them, for non-EXP stuff.

[Shadowsong]

Yeah ppl nowdays stay in port Jeuno semi afk waiting for shout lol that what ppl do -.- boring

Abyssea
Empyreans
AF3+2
Limbus
Neo-Dynamis
Relic Weapons
Relic Armor Augments
Einherjar
Salvage
Neo-Nyzul
Land Kings / KSNMs
KCNMs / HKCNMs
Sea
Sky Augments
Crafting / Synergy / Fishing
Voidwatch
ZNMs / Mythics
Magian Trials
Walk of Echoes
Legion
Campaign

You have obviously done all of those things right? I mean, you only have leveling left to do right?!
Nothing to do, please.

edit: Seriously, do you know how long it takes to gear a SINGLE job well, let alone three? So clueless, yet so self-righteous. I bet you think full Perle is "gearing a job well"

[Fupafighter]

Hell leveling is the only part of this game that bores me these days. The main reason why I stoped lvling jobs. If people ever did oldschool sync pties like the old days, would be seriously better than GOV and you would't have to skillup. Lesser colibri, caederva mire camps used to be rly fun. And merit pties. Leeching in the game isn't bad. It gives you the option, do i care enough about enjoying and learning my job and skilling it along the way, or do I just want to level it fast and do other things and read threads and experience the job at the level it is actually relevant with all of it's JA and gear. It's preference. I personally don't think leveling your job from 1-99 the oldschool way makes you a better player, but I highly recommend that if you leech, you atleast take the time to look at gear advice threads and get gear prior to "leeching" it up. I know I haven't leveled a job w.o having a full set of +2 waiting for me since I finished my other jobs >.<