Rant About Current End Game - ADL and Voidwatch = Old FFXI, No Thanks

[Kiyara]

Just been rather upset with certain updates the game has been presenting itself lately. Firstly was the introduction to Voidwatch. Great concept when you see it on paper. Then I experienced it in action and was like "ummm wtf". Felt like we were going back to hardcore ffxi status again in which you needed 18 people to do any end game content.

Voidwatch feels like a revised hardcore Abyssea. The atmacites are total jokes even at full power and having 3 fully equipped atmacites maybe make you 5-10% stronger at most. Drops being in the 5% or less area yet again back to the old school methods. I'm sure people wanna do 50-100 Pils just to MAYBE get 1 Toci's Harness...

Combined with having drops be totally chest dependent like Walk of Echoes (another good system but still fails in the long run, needs work). Abyssea was a great system that truely rewarded the player for their time and effort and you seemed to have stripped that from Voidwatch. The missions of voidwatch give you absolutely no reward whatsoever. Hell in Abyssea, doing the missions at least gave you unique atmas and other little things to benefit you. All the time I spent in Abyssea, I was rewarded for my time and it showed through all the work I did.

Also another element that was brought back in end game old school ffxi was the job biased tier system. So many jobs are completely useless in Voidwatch that you purposely have to use broken/effective jobs to beat any of the hard NMs. Being a career thf with a Mandau, I get sick and tired of people turning me down with the typical "lolthf no thanks, you got sam,drk,war,mnk job?" comment. People only want pld, whm, rdm, blm, brd, war, mnk, drk, sam, rng, smn and cor for their VW parties. Other jobs such as thf, drg, pup, bst, etc have nothing to bring to the table and are considered useless in voidwatch.

Then there's the trial for relic weapons for Lv 99 and Lv 99 Aura. The fact that Arch Dynamis Lord, being a tough SOB as he is and that only the top maybe 10% players in the game can actually beat him (don't kid yourself that a pick up group can beat this, definitely ain't happening). And the fact that in comparison to all the other trials, this trial is the more difficult than all the other trial progressions put together. I thought relic people were punished enough by scavenging 17000 single ancient currency to make the Lv 75 version on top of killing annoying NMs for the items.

Sadly I will never complete my 99 trial Mandau due to this stupid trial being overly hard and not possible when SE stated that "the majority of players can do this trial" which is a total lie. Maybe if the NM was just kill 5 ADLs then maybe, but needing 5 items that cost 20-40 mil each, no one is going to help you get those 5 for free. You can't force teamwork where you gain something and everyone else gains nothing from it. Maybe your friends will help you because they want to but 17 other random joe blows are definitely not going to help you.

Granted the Mythic weapon users with the insane trials in general from start to end is tough and the final trial is easy and the Empyreal weapon users final 2 trials which are totally stupid and overly expensive/unrealistic (seriously 1500 plates, what were you thinking?), those legendary weapons are punished just as bad. These weapons get punished unnecessarily one way or another on the course of the journey of completion.

End game should be more like abyssea where players are rewarded for their time and effort. Difficulty is one thing but putting in stupid factors like 1% drop rates, needing way too many people to beat something, and only certain jobs are acceptable to use in end game, then you have a completely different problem of bad game design.

I love this game so much but it seems that the creator/director wants to punish us more by throwing us back into the hardcore/no life/biased/elitist bandwagon to get anything we want done. Sorry but this isn't right.

[Natenn]

It all started with the decimation of HNM, people will constantly cry about others cheating regardless of if they have proof or not. So to "cure" the problem of botting, land king HNM were turned into pop items with abysmal drop rates effectively ruining it for everyone since its now way harder to get anything from them. Everything SE has added is grinding based content with atma/temp items so even the noobiest of players can kill the "end game" content, why? Because SE won't just give out and easy way to obtain things, original kings were designed to keep the flow of rare/sought after items low so that not everyone had them and the ppl who did have them felt good about it, to achieve that goal was reward in itself. Now since most servers had bitters monopolising claims SE had to rethink the system but maintain the idea of a limited flow of ghe good items. So we got kings in the form of pop items and we all know how fun they are now.

[Natenn]

VWNM also fed off this idea, don't make drops easy, don't make fights easy. Original HNM (21-24 48-72 etc) were not hard but lots of times they seemed that way due to the stress of worrying, about ig your gonna claim, if something goes wrong we'll wipe and lose claim to another PT, will we have enough ppl to kill it when it pops, will someone try to MPK us? things like that had ppl stressed out since claiming was rare and if you lost claim due to it going white or some one didn't do something right and you wiped it might be days/weeks before you got he chance to fight it again.

With VWNM all that stress from previous HNM was negated since you don't have to worry about claiming/When its gonna pop/if your gonna have enough/having claim taken by another LS. All that was left was worrying about the drop you wanted, so what happened next? SE gave most the VWNM 1 shot capabilities, high HP, debilitating AoEs, things of that sort that even the good players were'nt able to farm the NM effectivly.

[Natenn]

This is what refer to as luck based content; content that despite the calibur of skill/gear you have everyone bad/good has same chance to kill it since theres only one way to kill it = rely on staggers/atma/temp items or fail. Botulus Rex is a prime example, that thing has to be stagger locked most of the fight since all of its attacks are extremely nasty and will kill you in seconds, so even if you have the best gear/equip possible you will still get wrecked by NM if its not staggered most the time. ADL is another example, the only defensive against that thing is Perfect defense, no one can survive those AoEs at a lower % from all them clones going off at once. They need to give us the 20-40m fights like it use to be, i miss 30-45m Tiamats, 15-25m DI, 10-20m Cerb/khim. Now every fight has to end fast or AoE will kill you or get hit by death/charm and kill all your mages.

[MarkovChain]

You forgot to add that the hnm you were hunting had garbage drops and only idiots would go after them in the first place, hence why it took you so long to kill them.

[Natenn]

300M+ bank a month from SW/DI/Tia says you have no idea what you're talking about, sound mad like you couldn't claim.

[MarkovChain]

lolz, Mr Noob killing mobs with retarded drops bragging about their 300M split between 30 players. Priceless. 1 scorpion harness for every member !

[Lemoncloak]

So you start with this:


It all started with the decimation of HNM, people will constantly cry about others cheating regardless of if they have proof or not. So to "cure" the problem of botting, land king HNM were turned into pop items with abysmal drop rates effectively ruining it for everyone since its now way harder to get anything from them.

What did you describe this system as other than the "good-ole-days?" When I remember hnm camping.... gee I thought it was kind of:


LUCK BASED CONTENT

because.... it's ENTIRELY depended upon who was "lucky" and claimed the mob.


tl;dr? Claiming is still considered luck based unless you want to admit to 3rd party program use on the official ffxi forums.....

Are you certain you're not just unhappy that there's no 3rd party program that will put your shiny in your VW box and not mine?

[Natenn]

Claiming was luck based, not wiping took skill.

[Natenn]

lolz, Mr Noob killing mobs with retarded drops bragging about their 300M split between 30 players. Priceless. 1 scorpion harness for every member !

You're the only noob i see here, you clearly have no idea what you were talking about. We had a Maximum of maby 30 back then, usualy half that around the clock, $ was ditributed by attendance to everything we did. showing up to camp/scan/at the kill, hours spent farming sea, ect. Basically the LS did everything together. At the end of the month all the points were given a value based on bank which was usually at least 300M to 500M, the most casual of members made like 2-5M, id be pulling in 10-20M, if you think thats garbage for back then you are an idiot. Like i said before, people know who i am, who are you? a big mouth who brags about getting lucky on ADL, turns around and bashes others for braging. Pot calling the kettle black.

ANYWAY, sadly legion looks like more zerg content zzzz

[saevel]

Claiming was luck based, not wiping took skill.

Skill on what exactly ....

Fafnir was a joke, Nid was a slightly harder Fafnir.
KB was a joke, just keep healers out of range.
Tia turned into a joke, I still remember the short period where a BRD/NIN could tank her
Jormy was a joke, nobody did him anyway
ToAU NM's were jokes once you know what to avoid

About the only HNM that was remotely *hard* was Vytra, and only cause of her summons and repops. Got enough manpower and she becomes just as easy as the rest.

HNM "end game" was 99% about getting the claim, and 1% not being stupid enough to wipe.

[Natenn]

and yet most ppl struggled and or wiped.

[MarkovChain]

That because all the idiots camping hnms were gimped. Lol@ bragging about not wiping to hnms. Seriously. Seriously HnM money makers were garbage, having all your LS member do "The Ashu Taliff" missions, all trioable, dayly repeatable, is still and used to be inifinitely better. Drops included multimillions attachements & mat like cerberus hide with super high chance. But I guess the giant noob you are had/has no idea they even existed. This game has never been large-LS friendly. One LS for every event=fail, and you prove it. It's funny you are even mentionning sea because last I checked absolutely no sea item was worth farming, even novio (not on it's own but getting it from bazar was the best time/ratio reward).

[Kiyara]

I get sick of the zerg crap. Seems that's the only way to beat any HNM nowadays. Not exactly thought compelling. Zerg = just brainless attacking and hope it dies. All VWNMs = old school DL fights where CS Stun is replaced with Proc to terror mob for x minutes and hope it dies.

I, for one, think low man is way more skilled than 18 man fights. Fighting a tough NM with 6 people where making a mistake is extremely costly because 1 member = 1/6th of your team, especially if you lose the tank or whm, you are extremely boned. Least with 18 people, can sacrifice a few bodies and you'll be ok. But that isn't possible when a damn NM is spamming an AOE that does almost full hp to most DDs and probably 3/4 to a tank. I miss my 6 man fights. Wish VW was 6 mannable, same with ADL (and using a balanced party setup, not the typical 5 Mnks/DDs, Smn PD BS). I like doing the content with my good friends/LS. We work great together and like helping each other obtain our goals.

[wish12oz]

You forgot to add that the hnm you were hunting had garbage drops and only idiots would go after them in the first place, hence why it took you so long to kill them.

If you bothered to play anything besides monk, you would know this statement in incorrect. Some of those 'garbage' items are still the best in slot, like armadaberk for war and drk TP sets.

More fail from the gimpchan =[

[Monchat]

the good LSes got their adaberk from odin, not from fafhog. and the talk was about money makers. ive always laughed on the inside a all the noobs camping cerberus personally, when the hides droped like 50% of the time from the ashu talif chests.

[MarkovChain]

It gave the campers a superiority complex, that's it. Now they come on the OF explaining us ADL is too hard.

[Khiinroye]

Because Odin and the Ashu Talif were available before ToAU, and camping Cerberus and HNMs means you can't do anything else to make money.

None of the "campers" are complaining that ADL is too hard. Its the people who either have to buy the marrows or try with a pickup group who say its too hard.

[MarkovChain]

I didn't know cerberus was available prior to toau. Everything he mentions his ToAU, and the nashmau assault missions became live soon after toau. In reality he considers his LS wiping to ADL lack of luck when it's lack of skill. I've explained 100% winrate startegies in the ADL thread. Any alliance should be able to lock ADL with shock squall and PD, having to kill more than 2-3 ADL clones is uncommon.

[Kiyara]

Complaining because I am not able to ADL with 6 people that aren't all mnks and smn. Also, working with 17 other people that aren't gonna let me freely have the marrow. I have no options other than making a LS that is 18+ members big. Sorry but I'm done with that crap. Too much work and time. Just because you can beat it Mark doesn't mean it's fine the way it is. That's like saying because you're a millionaire and I'm a 50k/yr salary man that you are entitled to eating at a french restaurant that serves $50 dishes and I'm not because the waiter says, "sorry, only rich people are allowed to dine in here". Sorry but the playing field is far from fair.

[macross]

you can prob kill adl with 2 wars, a bard and a smn. Don't need 18. more you bring the higher your chances.

[Kiyara]

Ya the fact you need a brd and a smn to do ADL just shows ya how broken the fight is and you need those jobs to do the fight because if you don't you'll die from the massive aoe dmg. 20 jobs to choose from and only 1-2 possible combinations work for fighting a HNM. Should be more diverse than that.

[Mahoro]

They said the same thing about AV. Honestly though, is it really any different from "needing BLM, BRD, NIN" etc to proc and farm Abyssea? You can definitely put together a lowman static for ADL of 6-12 ppl. It isn't as out of reach for the average player as one has been led to believe from reading these forums.

[Vold]

In retrospect I'm perfectly fine with ADL. Hey it's cool if they want to maintain 1+ groups to do end game because that's as it should be. My problem was that, ADL is END GAME. Lv75 content as it stands isn't really end game anymore. Not when I can solo Kirin on my BST consistently. Maybe "solo end game" if you want to call it that.

Anyway, real up to date END GAME that requires more than 3 people SHOULD NOT mix with magian trials. Ever. But it does. So either you deal or not at all. And I don't care what anyone says ever. I don't care how "easy" it is for you and so on. Going through ADL for lv99 relics is another bullshit ploy at time sinks and getting kicks at the expense of the players. But hey, it's cool. I didn't want to break my back getting a lv99 by other means they could come up with. I've got my free MMOs that seem to be working out quite nicely. It's only a matter of time now.

In short SE owes us easy paths to lv99 versions of our lv75 gears, and to save the up to date end game hard shit for new content. Personally, I still hold the idea that the 75 shit should have been dumped to the side and we moved on completely because it doesn't really matter but anywho, the game is what it is right now. Either you deal, or not. But I know one thing for certain. If you utter the words FFXI and skill, you're full of yourself.

[Natenn]

Is this guy serious? He calls everyone who did HNM noobs and says all HNM drops were garbage, well my main LS did all HNM bar kings since everyone had their fafhogg drops and black belts. Calling the first LS that killed PW back at 75 with less then 30 noobs? The first NA LS to kill Vrtra with only 18 w/o kiting in about 45m noobs? You never accomplished either till lvl cap increase if at all probably, i think its funny whenever anyone disagrees with you they get called a noob then you spout off about skills you don't have like MNK is a skill based job. Gaiters, E body, Defending ring, ect. were all out waaaay before Einherjar was introduced or was exclusive to the HNM. SW/DI drops only came from the NMs for the longest time, only DI tail became available from VW drops, and Cerb was out before hide dropped from anywhere else. Also, anything you need to PD zerg to win is not skill based, its luck based. If anyone says otherwise = they're an idiot. If you ever kill ADL w/o PD then i'll agree with you.

[Dazusu]

300M+ bank a month from SW/DI/Tia says you have no idea what you're talking about, sound mad like you couldn't claim.

You kidding? More like 200-300M a week.

Those were the days :o


lolz, Mr Noob killing mobs with retarded drops bragging about their 300M split between 30 players. Priceless. 1 scorpion harness for every member !

More like 7-10.

[MarkovChain]

The first NA LS to kill Vrtra with only 18 w/o kiting in about 45m noobs?

I had to double check the drops. Yeah/...lol



You never accomplished either till lvl cap increase if at all probably,

True, never killed any HnM though I had capped rdm,blm & mnk gear.




i think its funny whenever anyone disagrees with you they get called a noob then you spout off about skills you don't have like MNK is a skill based job.

It's because you ARE a noob. You are zxplaining us that hunting mobs that *might* drop items selling for 2M (and as a group) was a great achievement and therefore worth doing. I'm sorry.





Gaiters, E body, Defending ring, ect.


Anyone knows that Nyzul body and salvage bodies were suyperior in every situation except those that liked shinies, trying to argue accuracy and other bullshit. Funny that you are mentionning defending ring (useless) to defend your point and qqing about luck based content on the other side.



SW/DI drops only came from the NMs for the longest time, only DI tail became available from VW drops, and Cerb was out before hide dropped from anywhere else.

Blabla. DI drops are no better than your average ENM. First killed 1 days after release etc. Give us a break. You are monk and want speed shoes ? Auction house, problem solved. The game was balanced ; there were the gimps that hunted DI and the clever that farmed gil to buy it.

[Yambo99]

I had to double check the drops. Yeah/...lol



True, never killed any HnM though I had capped rdm,blm & mnk gear.




It's because you ARE a noob. You are zxplaining us that hunting mobs that *might* drop items selling for 2M (and as a group) was a great achievement and therefore worth doing. I'm sorry.





Anyone knows that Nyzul body and salvage bodies were suyperior in every situation except those that liked shinies, trying to argue accuracy and other bullshit. Funny that you are mentionning defending ring (useless) to defend your point and qqing about luck based content on the other side.




Blabla. DI drops are no better than your average ENM. First killed 1 days after release etc. Give us a break. You are monk and want speed shoes ? Auction house, problem solved. The game was balanced ; there were the gimps that hunted DI and the clever that farmed gil to buy it.

ROFL get with the time you mong.
Come back when 300k out ways 300mil!

Also stop moaning because you can't claim etc.
One more thing this was the best thing you said btw " there were the gimps that hunted DI and the clever that farmed gil to buy it." More like we were the clever ones who farmed the mob for no gil. to sell to you for Gil. Seriously frenchie get with the times.
LOELOELEOELEOELEOL GIMP LOELEOELEOEL

[MarkovChain]

Don't need to claim. Took me 1 day to get BB item. Enter dragon Aery, pay 4 M per item to the LS leader (that probaly kept half of it for himlself). Goodbye hnms. Not sure what you 300k vs 300M is referring to. You didn't to 300M a week bro lol. Nantenn is overly exagerating his point and already explained it's 300M a month between 30 members, pretty fail. You guys have a hard time facing the games reality. Claiming complex I think. I bought my shenlongs to apathy for 45M I'm glad their slaves thought they made a good deal., I definitely made one. I think me and mdk were doing over 10M each a week just doing dayly ashu taliff bcnms, and cerberus hide was the bad drop.

[Yambo99]

Don't need to claim. Took me 1 day to get BB item. Enter dragon Aery, pay 4 M per item to the LS leader (that probaly kept half of it for himlself). Goodbye hnms. Not sure what you 300k vs 300M is referring to. You didn't to 300M a week bro lol. Nantenn is overly exagerating his point and already explained it's 300M a month between 30 members, pretty fail. You guys have a hard time facing the games reality. Claiming complex I think. I bought my shenlongs to apathy for 45M I'm glad their slaves thought they made a good deal., I definitely made one. I think me and mdk were doing over 10M each a week just doing dayly ashu taliff bcnms, and cerberus hide was the bad drop.

You don't seem to understand it takes an LS 10mins to earn 45mil it takes you 3 weeks of like 10 hours per day constant farming. do the math seriously. Plus i'm not your bro k thanks LOELEOELEOL

[Lemoncloak]

Is this guy serious? He calls everyone who did HNM noobs and says all HNM drops were garbage, well my main LS did all HNM bar kings since everyone had their fafhogg drops and black belts. Calling the first LS that killed PW back at 75 with less then 30 noobs? The first NA LS to kill Vrtra with only 18 w/o kiting in about 45m noobs? You never accomplished either till lvl cap increase if at all probably, i think its funny whenever anyone disagrees with you they get called a noob then you spout off about skills you don't have like MNK is a skill based job. Gaiters, E body, Defending ring, ect. were all out waaaay before Einherjar was introduced or was exclusive to the HNM. SW/DI drops only came from the NMs for the longest time, only DI tail became available from VW drops, and Cerb was out before hide dropped from anywhere else. Also, anything you need to PD zerg to win is not skill based, its luck based. If anyone says otherwise = they're an idiot. If you ever kill ADL w/o PD then i'll agree with you.


Write all that on your resume. Maybe someone will care.....

Get over it dude.

[Lemoncloak]

Claiming was luck based, not wiping took skill.

So, if we follow your misguided argument:

Luck ======> Skill is good

BUT

Skill =======> Luck is bad

In reality, your complaint is that there's no way around the luck part. In other words:

No bots will put your treasures in the box;;;;;;;

[macross]

You can kill ADL without PD, just need luck. We popped one without pd on accident, and killed a clone. If we got lucky we would have won. Sadly it wasnt the right clone so we eventualy died.

[MarkovChain]

I never understood why it's so problematic for some people to "save 2 hours" or to use 2 hours. It's a job ability.

[MarkovChain]

You don't seem to understand it takes an LS 10mins to earn 45mil it takes you 3 weeks of like 10 hours per day constant farming. do the math seriously. Plus i'm not your bro k thanks LOELEOELEOL

Are seriosuly saying it required 10 minutes to get a PW pop and kill it back at 75 ? It amounts to several hundreds of hours of farming.

[Natenn]

lol at noobs crying about bots, not everyone botted. Just trying to make excuses for not claiming. I really do hope they bring back HNM so ppl like braegoface over there can QQ about being gimp some more.

[MarkovChain]

I didn't mention bots in my discussion but at least now we know on what side you are. You can't achieve things without bots I see. Untill you find a bot to do ADL mwhaha. Who wants to bet he used abyssea ??? claim bots?

[Kiyara]

Get back to me when a standard balanced group of 6 can kill ADL without PD then I'll give it a shot.

[Fupafighter]

So basically, we have good ole "game is too easy, make it harder", to "game is too hard, make it easier". That's what I'm getting out of this.

[Kiyara]

There is a line between difficulty. And definately it's out of wack in ffxi. Abyssea = bit too easy, then they introduce voidwatch and it's way stupid hard and demanding. Needs to be an in between and it will be just right. Along with decent drop rates (1% shit = needs to go). ADL is the same thing. Too difficult to be called (quote by SE), "majority of people can do this content"....sorry SE...no. Dunno where their head is.

[Nala]

up firmly where a proctologist's specialty lies.

[Fupafighter]

There is a line between difficulty. And definately it's out of wack in ffxi. Abyssea = bit too easy, then they introduce voidwatch and it's way stupid hard and demanding. Needs to be an in between and it will be just right. Along with decent drop rates (1% shit = needs to go). ADL is the same thing. Too difficult to be called (quote by SE), "majority of people can do this content"....sorry SE...no. Dunno where their head is.

Abyssea is only easy if you have skill and proper jobs...

[Zerich]

300M+ bank a month from SW/DI/Tia says you have no idea what you're talking about, sound mad like you couldn't claim.

system is/was total utter shit and you know it. SE just can't find any type on medium.

[Shadowsong]

I like how gimp han brags about buying his BB items. Why do you even play this game? Why not just log in once every update and buy everything on day 1...
Do you expect us to think you are cool now?

[MarkovChain]

Because I couldn't count on you to supply me with marrows obviously. I can count on you to supply me with cinder & and metal plates though <3. The game is going back to being balanced.

[Monchat]

I like how gimp han brags about buying his BB items. Why do you even play this game? Why not just log in once every update and buy everything on day 1...
Do you expect us to think you are cool now?

I see. Do you agree with this:

- a monk that buys his BB items is gimp ( @ 4Mil each it took ~ 3 weeks to farm the money. In 2 weeks of camping I only claimed three NQ turtle and it didn't drop). Its much better to spend years enslaved in a LS to get one's item, or enslave 17 other people to do a ks99 with utter crap rewards besides BB items.

- a fisherman who buys his 10,000 moat carps is gimp. Yea, fishing 10,000 carps on your own totally teaches you how to be a good fisherman.

- real fisher men fish all their ryuugu titan and lik for their Ebisu. Also they do the brigant chart, get their dwarf pugils and drill calamaries there, and enjoy losing the baits to monsters while trying to catch liks. Real fishermen do not catch those with meat balls and minnow, its too easy. Btw, @ 10k each, ryugu and lik are not worth farming yet people sell for that price. 5/hours back in the day with Lu Shang and WW mules repairing every 3 bite, sucks. but it was 30k/fish at the time so good money.


- a crafter who buys his mats on the AH is a gimp crafter. Farming all your mats all the way to level 100 is how real men do crating.

By extension:

- If you burned at least one job to 99 in abyssea you are a gimp. Real player get their level 99 in real parties. Oh wait! Nobody has been doing high levels parties since levelcynch was introduced, and that was long before abyssea. I burned at least two jobs in colibris synch PTs, and I rarely exped lol.

- If you used atmas, cruor buffs or primeval brew in abyssea you are gimp. Real players fight those mobs like real mens.

- I never buy food off the AH. I farm the mats and spend 3 hours crafting my red curry buns and my shiheis.

- I never use a chocobo, or outpost teleports. Walking there is what real players do.

ITT: learn to play the game, economics, and how to take advantage of other players with the means the game gives.

[Return1]

What this game needs is harder content that involves strategy (Temp items and zombie), no proc systems ffs, and for treasure toi drop off the f*cking mobs again.

Allowing players to distribute the loot lets groups organize their events far more effectively.

Removing proc systems helps small groups and stops you from being forced to drag along useless jobs.

Limbus/Sea were perfect examples of strategy and loot distribution. A smaller group with a good strategy always did better than a larger group using numbers and zombie tactics.

[Karbuncle]

I see. Do you agree with this:

- a monk that buys his BB items is gimp ( @ 4Mil each it took ~ 3 weeks to farm the money. In 2 weeks of camping I only claimed three NQ turtle and it didn't drop). Its much better to spend years enslaved in a LS to get one's item, or enslave 17 other people to do a ks99 with utter crap rewards besides BB items.

Buying a BB Item is acceptable to me, Because you're still working for it in some way (Making the Gil). But trying to make it sound like people who do it legitimately are slave drivers and takes "years" is not helping your case. I got all of my Black Belt items from KSNM/HNM, and I slaved no one. My friends helped me get it, they were after things as well, it was mutually beneficial.

it took me all of about 1 month to get my Black Belt items, probably about 10 Man hours of work, the only reason it took so long is because I got lazy when it came to my Adamantoise Egg and stopped doing KSNMs for a while.

Though, People who get BB Items through ways other than their Gil are not Slave Drivers working people for years, There probably are SOME Examples of this happening, but if you're going to use the Worst case scenario for "Not Buying" it, You should probably use the Worst Case Scenario for buying it. "Joe used Mommies Credit Card to buy Gil to get his Black belt Items, which were suppose to go to an LS Member, But Buyers come first".

Just saying, Make it a fair comparison or don't make one at all, Your argument holds water on its own, no need to demonize people who didn't buy their items.

[wish12oz]

- real fisher men fish all their ryuugu titan and lik for their Ebisu.

A real fishercat would know ryuugu titans are not involved in the ebisu quest.


Also they do the brigant chart, get their dwarf pugils and drill calamaries there,

I wasn't aware this was more effective than fishing sea zombies/cave cherax's or just using meat balls/minnows.


and enjoy losing the baits to monsters while trying to catch liks.

only liks steal your bait!


Real fishermen do not catch those with meat balls and minnow,

Yes they do.....


its too easy. Btw, @ 10k each, ryugu and lik are not worth farming yet people sell for that price. 5/hours back in the day with Lu Shang and WW mules repairing every 3 bite, sucks. but it was 30k/fish at the time so good money.

Get an ebisu, but seriously, hand in gugrusauruses, not titans.



- If you used atmas, cruor buffs or primeval brew in abyssea you are gimp. Real players fight those mobs like real mens.

Your boy pchan said this, are you disagreeing with him!?!


- I never buy food off the AH. I farm the mats and spend 3 hours crafting my red curry buns and my shiheis.

That's a smart move, you save tons of gil if you use lots of this stuff and can make it yourself.


ITT: learn to play the game

I couldn't agree more, you totally should.

[MarkovChain]

I could be wrong but I think mdk has ebisu, level 100 goldsmithing, lvl 100 fishing, level 99 verethragna, lvl 99 daurdabla, level99 gjallharhorn, level 99 spharai. Your are miles aways from this so listen carefully to other advices lol.

[Karbuncle]

Having good gear doesn't make you a good player.

Nor does hitting 4, 6, and Enter for 100 Hours.

Just sayin', I don't know MDK Personally or how he plays, But a trained monkey could get the gear you listed with enough time, Doesn't mean the monkey will play good.

[Natenn]

I wish i had this derp on my server back then :(

[Kitkat]

Wow, is this a discussion about how stupid game mechanics are currently, or just a bunch of people tossing their epeen to and fro hoping to mushroom smack the other in the face hard enough? Seriously, no body gives a flying shit about your little spats of who is or isn't gimp because of what you did or didn't do to get what you do or don't have.

The point of the matter is that people are sick of a system that makes them slave hours and hours at redoing a fight over and over again with greater and greater amounts of luck deciding on whether they will get something. VWNM has you doing a fight time and time and time and time again just to see someone with the item already getting it again while flooding peoples inventory with tons of synth items. I don't think the drop rate is broken on VWNM, I think the distribution is. This is put on a system with the following artificial blockers to slow the individual down already: 1.) Long cool down on Void Stones and moderate cost for Void Dust via cuor/cp/is/gil 2.) Able to only pop a max of 4 before needing more KI to pop again. 3.)Distribution system that has no rare/ex check to appropriately pass it to someone who doesn't already have it. 4.) (not yet instated) The need to gather x amount of tags in place of said drop to get desired drop (personally this should be a 1:1 ratio not 3~5:1 ratio if they refuse to make a rare/ex check system that dictates if X Player has X Item already then it should cycle through X equation on if it roles over to another person or at all.)

Same goes for Nyzul with artificial blockers on top of luck, but they are at least trying to fix that too. Too bad they expect you to then reach the floor 25 times (from what I last saw, would prefer 10-15) before getting the item. Already have limited tags that refresh a 1/day, random floor progression, random floor objectives (none 'hard' but take various degrees of time to accomplish) and an already high chance of not even seeing a single drop off he floor boss. Can't argue the 1/3 chance it'll be the one you want since that 1/3 chance can be doubled since it is possible to see multiples drop too.

My issue isn't that the content isn't fun, or that it isn't challenging (it isn't particularly challenging if everyone does what they need to). It is the fact they place Luck on top of a list of artificial blocks already in place to make the content last that much longer when there really isn't a need for it.

Just feels like SE is adding tons of hoops then latching on shitty luck to fill out the rest of the gap instead of putting any other alternative options/choices in until people bitch about it. Maybe the marketing branch is making them do it to garner more time from everyone and we all know time=money in their pockets, but you can only do that so much before people finally say "you know what, fuck this...I used to have a better chance of getting something good..now I just see this endless row of doors I need to find the key to...and it might only turn the lock 1/4 of the way before breaking so I have to get another key."

Has Endgame always relied on luck? Yes, but it was a little more manageable than it is now. Old endgame I could cut up with friends and have fun with the content while doing it knowing that my chances of getting something was fairly decent. Now instead of having 1 Luck roller you got 2-3 of them going, but SE justifies this by adding "boobie-prizes" in the forms of tags or reach set objective x amount of times then you can have the item. ~golf clap~ I'd have better chances at taking my subscription fee and feeding the dime/nickle slots at a casino each month.

[Phogg]

This was fun. I hope SE keeps making these ridiculous quests so I can continue reading both sides of the "You suck, No you suck" chronicles.

[Sp1cyryan]

lol at noobs crying about bots, not everyone botted. Just trying to make excuses for not claiming. I really do hope they bring back HNM so ppl like braegoface over there can QQ about being gimp some more.

Crying? Naten, you have been crying about the HNM change since the day it was announced and every time the topic arises ever since. Then turn around and spout how you were so pro and others are just whiners who couldn't claim. It is truly sad how you act so smug and shamelessly stroke your ego in front of everyone (honestly what does a 300m bank have to do with anything, and why bother saying it..?)

You sit there and say its so much harder to get items from the kings now. Really? Considering you can pop KB (not to mention all the force pop HNMs..) more times in a day than he would in a week on his own (assuming you got the claims on him) that is purely a line of bitter and willful ignorance.

The game can be harder without something based on ridiculous claiming once a day or few. What does difficult to claim amount to compared to something difficult to fight? Sure you can make the mob both, but why? There is no good reason besides creating a time sink to sit there and make something so much of a claim battle.

HNMs were ridiculous and will always be. People who had a life outside the game didn't need to be called in at inconvenient times. People didn't need to sit there for up to three hours waiting.

While I will not question your integrity as it is silly to do. The idea you never had any people botting in your LSs over the years helping you get the claims you then proceed to turn around and rub in peoples faces is just silly.

You still have Sandworm, DI, and Tiamat to sit there and be nostalgic about some nonexistent "glory days". Maybe you should make a thread asking SE to give them new drops and raise their levels to 130.

[Alkimi]

There is a line between difficulty. And definately it's out of wack in ffxi. Abyssea = bit too easy, then they introduce voidwatch and it's way stupid hard and demanding. Needs to be an in between and it will be just right. Along with decent drop rates (1% shit = needs to go). ADL is the same thing. Too difficult to be called (quote by SE), "majority of people can do this content"....sorry SE...no. Dunno where their head is.

I wouldn't say voidwatch is stupid hard. As it stands Botulus Rex is by far the hardest of them and we went 4/6 kills last night, problem is you are completely reliant on staggering and temp items to take him down. If you can't hit a stagger then he will wipe the floor with you no matter how good you are. Kalasutrax and Ig-Alima can also give you problems if you can't stagger them but all the rest are pretty straightforward.

There's what looks likes a version of Rex in the dats for Legion and if it's the same mob then killing it with no atmacites or temp items is going to be pretty much impossible. I'd like to think SE would at the very least remove chainspell-meteor from his abilities.

I'd say ADL IS killable by the majority of people. Even a pick-up alliance should have at worst a 50% success rate, strategies for killing are pretty much known by now and you just need a bit of luck on your side. SE said the majority of people can do this content, but never said anything about doing it quickly.

[Vold]

It isn't as out of reach for the average player as one has been led to believe from reading these forums.Few people would even have a problem with the whole thing if they weren't restricted to 2 bloody hours per day to work on it. I stress the real issues here. It's not ADL difficulty. It's not anything perfect broken defense can't solve. It's everyone killing it probably wanting the marrows for one reason or another and the fact that it's in a time restricted zone AND you have to farm pop items for it. If you have doubts on ADL being reasonable or not reasonable then pay attention to your /checks and let me know how many lv99 relics you come across. I haven't seen any yet but I know at least 3 exist on my server from chan's ADL rants alone and relics are beginning to become what emps were a couple months after heroes was released; few and not so far between but no longer super rare. So I'm seeing a fair share of relics right now and I've seen exactly 0 99s.

ADL is incredibly easy with PD. The problem with getting a group, if you're not already in an established LS, is forming a group these days with members whom can be trusted. It's obviously a problem right now and it may not be so much that people can't be trusted, it's people themselves not willing to trust anyone else because the playerbase is scared to death of being screwed over because they read a story once in a blue moon of it happening and are preached to about not trusting anybody and that everyone is out to screw each other out of greed. Such matters as this and what I said earlier about time restrictions and so on is why going through turn in items from a wild card NM for magian trials is a bad idea. In a perfect world it would not matter and hundreds of players on every server would already have their lv99 relics.

But hey, SE claims they did it for the stats that are on them. That's fine. Better stats are better than inferior stats, period. The trial has been justified. It exists to further the DD hierarchy agenda. It's not going to change. Either you deal or not deal. Most are not dealing. A lv95 relic is still far superior to wielding anything under it so it works for people. Hardcore players are getting their lv99 relics thereby pushing themselves up further along the DD hierarchy. Relics have seen their justice now unless you want to whine that they aren't uncontested as #1. Stuff is working as it's intended by SE. You, I, everyone can argue until they're blue in the face about why we too should get our lv99 relics. But SE believes what they believe. And it's very clear to me they are furthering their own agenda, as usual. Either you suck it up and do the work or buy your 99 relic for another 100 million+ gil.

Can we move on yet? or fancy another round of repeating ourselves? Again.

[Mahoro]

Few people would even have a problem with the whole thing if they weren't restricted to 2 bloody hours per day to work on it. I stress the real issues here. It's not ADL difficulty. It's not anything perfect broken defense can't solve. It's everyone killing it probably wanting the marrows for one reason or another and the fact that it's in a time restricted zone AND you have to farm pop items for it. If you have doubts on ADL being reasonable or not reasonable then pay attention to your /checks and let me know how many lv99 relics you come across. I haven't seen any yet but I know at least 3 exist on my server from chan's ADL rants alone and relics are beginning to become what emps were a couple months after heroes was released; few and not so far between but no longer super rare. So I'm seeing a fair share of relics right now and I've seen exactly 0 99s.

But the "average player" also complains about having to devote more than 2 hours to something in this game. If the forums were to be believed, the average player is somewhat casual with a full time job, wives/husbands/kids, and no more than 2-3 hours to devote to FFXI per day; thus, Abyssea was their second coming because they could log in, do something quick, and log out. I fail to see how the 2 hour time restriction is a huge bone of contention to the "average player". I agree with your other point regarding how 99's are few and far between, likely because people either have just opted not to even try and/or they aren't in a LS that can do ADL. As for the number of 99's formed, I wouldn't rely on anecdotal /check evidence. A better resource at least for NA completed relics is the BG thread entitled "Completed Relic/Mythic weapons list" (which I won't link to here for various reasons).


ADL is incredibly easy with PD. The problem with getting a group, if you're not already in an established LS, is forming a group these days with members whom can be trusted. It's obviously a problem right now and it may not be so much that people can't be trusted, it's people themselves not willing to trust anyone else because the playerbase is scared to death of being screwed over because they read a story once in a blue moon of it happening and are preached to about not trusting anybody and that everyone is out to screw each other out of greed. Such matters as this and what I said earlier about time restrictions and so on is why going through turn in items from a wild card NM for magian trials is a bad idea. In a perfect world it would not matter and hundreds of players on every server would already have their lv99 relics.

I agree that making a group of trustworthy people is a roadblock, but when was it ever not? But the game has a long history of people forming statics for things they want. If you aren't already in an established LS, forming a group of about 10-12 people or an ADL-based LS is probably the best alternative. I know of at least one ADL LS that was recruiting on Lakshmi (ironically by someone who trashes the idea of LS's). When people made Salvage groups, they lasted for on average 1 year due to crippling low drop rates. ADL drops a Marrow 100% and a second one at around 10% rate. The "endpoint" to every group formed is in sight. Sure, there is the matter of what happens when 6-7 people have their Marrows and the unlucky 4-5 left still need, but that was always an issue with statics formed for anything. That ties back into the trustworthiness issue, which again don't get me wrong is a concern.


But hey, SE claims they did it for the stats that are on them. That's fine. Better stats are better than inferior stats, period. The trial has been justified. It exists to further the DD hierarchy agenda. It's not going to change. Either you deal or not deal. Most are not dealing. A lv95 relic is still far superior to wielding anything under it so it works for people. Hardcore players are getting their lv99 relics thereby pushing themselves up further along the DD hierarchy. Relics have seen their justice now unless you want to whine that they aren't uncontested as #1. Stuff is working as it's intended by SE. You, I, everyone can argue until they're blue in the face about why we too should get our lv99 relics. But SE believes what they believe. And it's very clear to me they are furthering their own agenda, as usual. Either you suck it up and do the work or buy your 99 relic for another 100 million+ gil.

You said it yourself. Most are not dealing. That's why you aren't seeing many 99's. Sadly, I agree SE believes what they believe and they won't change things now. I don't want a Relic for my main jobs (WHM + SMN) and never did, but I accept the reality of the design choice and I don't mind organizing ADL runs for the Relicholders in my LS. For better or for worse, the only alternatives to people not in an established LS who can do ADL is: 1) Form your own static or ADL-specific LS; 2) Join said established LS; 3) Buy Marrows you see in Bazaars (if people can make 2-3 mill per Dyna run as they say they can, would only take you 10-12 days to raise the money for a Marrow); or 4) Opt out entirely and stay with the 95, which as you said is still a superior weapon.

[Kiyara]

I honestly don't mind the forming of groups to do ADL but the major problem lies in the fact you need 5 of the marrows per person. If it was 5 ADL kills, the problem wouldn't exist because everyone benefits from it. No one is going to help you freely get 5 ADL items, especially 17 other random people. This is just plain fact/reality. And most people will not stay around once their relic is achieved. This is the biggest flaw in ADL. Pickup parties would abundantly exist and therefore ADL would be more realistically doable if it was like the other trials and just number of kills.

[Natenn]

I have no clue what im talking about. Noted. I rarely saw you at you anything if at all but here we are again, more made up stuff from ppl still sore from pre abyssea days. SW/DI are far outdated and don't even sell enough for me to bother with em. Nothing has changed if you look at the big picture. We're all still sinking hours/days/weeks ect into getting gear, just that theres really no "competitive" factors left. You wanna talk about being smug? When HNM were still endgame ppl like you didn't make a peep, now since SE has the game at the "lets all hold hands and not be competitive" you're the ones being smug cause you think you're good now or w/e. Let me tell you something, theres nothing left to be "good" at, all content is zergbased or laughably easy, till HNM are back it will probably remain this way, unless they finally rework the enmity system and add content that doesn't let ppl crutch on Atma/staggers/2hrs to win.

[Natenn]

Also get out of my face with that lolpup

[Dart]

that was legit stuff about knowing what to turn in for fishing quests. Makes me think that monchat fish botted his way to 100. lol

kings/DI/SW types of endgame content need to stay dead. I did all that, owned it, made a mint. Seriously never again, we did kings/sky back before rng got nerfed and that was the only real content. So it was relevant for a time.

I still go into rages when I see the ixion nm in abys-uleg lol. I did endgame content because I played with some really cool cats and I loved getting king/Ki/Ixion/Toau gear for myself and my friends, but that was back in HS before I had a career and all that. Many of us who grew up with ffxi though hs/college/after college feel the same way. The game is fine as it is minus a few tweaks to voidwatch lootsystem distribution.

Just enjoy yourselves with your friends and leave it at that.

[Mahoro]

I mostly agree. And for those who want a challenge or to shake things up so endgame isn't all just "ADL and Voidwatch," try WoE or other Dynamis Arch Bosses, some of which put out nice gear. Not to mention Legion in a week or so.

[Sp1cyryan]

I have no idea what I am talking about.

Silly opinion.

Bitterness.

Narcissism.

Etc.

Well then I believe we can walk away from this one.

[MarkovChain]

Not sure why you are even comparing voidwatch to adl. Voidwatch drops mostly suck, are inferior to abyssea gear with very little situationnally gear (most of which are AH-sellable anyway). On the other side ADl gives you "just" the best weapon in the game. Also I didn't pay much attention to legion but if the gear is the one we saw from the recent dats, it's crap, nyzul gear is better..

Anyone mentioning plates or cinder needs a facepalm.

[Mahoro]

Probably for MNK yeah :P

[MarkovChain]

For all, apparently nyzul set bonus is huge. And it boosts 3 or 4 stats at once.

[Monchat]

that was legit stuff about knowing what to turn in for fishing quests. Makes me think that monchat fish botted his way to 100. lol


it was a mistake. its been 3 years since I fished gugrusaurus and mixed them with ryuugu ok... Once apon a time I enjoyed fishing because it was awsome money. Now people just get ebisu for trophy or if they plan to fish bot on Beacedine.

[Fupafighter]

Not sure why you are even comparing voidwatch to adl. Voidwatch drops mostly suck, are inferior to abyssea gear with very little situationnally gear (most of which are AH-sellable anyway). On the other side ADl gives you "just" the best weapon in the game. Also I didn't pay much attention to legion but if the gear is the one we saw from the recent dats, it's crap, nyzul gear is better..

Anyone mentioning plates or cinder needs a facepalm.
As i recall, almost all mythics beat relics lol.

[MarkovChain]

You meant that (most of) all mythics are garbage. All you have to do is go on the test server and use them. 300% TP have to be wasted to make them decent weapon and you have to use a gimp WS. In the end they are only good on zerg and even then they don't stand out as empyrean also have they advantgaes when starting from 300Tp (both from the high ODD rate and high WS damage).

[Mahoro]

For all, apparently nyzul set bonus is huge. And it boosts 3 or 4 stats at once.

Was addressing quality of Legion stuff for MNK. And not like doing Nyzul precludes doing Legion too.

[wish12oz]

I could be wrong but I think mdk has ebisu, level 100 goldsmithing, lvl 100 fishing, level 99 verethragna, lvl 99 daurdabla, level99 gjallharhorn, level 99 spharai. Your are miles aways from this so listen carefully to other advices lol.

My ukon is 95, it will be 99 when I stop being lazy and go buy the last 20~ riftdross I need with my 400 million gil. I don't actually play this game, so I haven't bothered to finish it. I could easily buy all that crap your friend has, and everything you have. It's not a big deal at all to me, and also, all the rest of my warrior's gear is the best possible, can you even come close to that?

[MarkovChain]

congrats on your level 95 gear I guess.

[Karbuncle]

Anyway, The new Set bonus is not 3-4 Per Piece, its +2 For 2 Pieces, +5 for 3 Pieces, +10 for 4 pieces. Unknown Value of all 5.

[Fupafighter]

You meant that (most of) all mythics are garbage. All you have to do is go on the test server and use them. 300% TP have to be wasted to make them decent weapon and you have to use a gimp WS. In the end they are only good on zerg and even then they don't stand out as empyrean also have they advantgaes when starting from 300Tp (both from the high ODD rate and high WS damage).
Sam drk and drg say hi. There mythics will make your relics look pointless. And what situations are you talking about? Btw mythics get 180 second aftermaths with level 3. I know that if shoha was triple attacking out of abyssea, that it could be doing 3-5k no problem, and I can see that at 100 tp with aftermath. I'm pretty positive that makes amano and masamune look silly. Drg mythic will make any DD look bad. Liberator will actually make entropy better than it already is.

[Fupafighter]

My ukon is 95, it will be 99 when I stop being lazy and go buy the last 20~ riftdross I need with my 400 million gil. I don't actually play this game, so I haven't bothered to finish it. I could easily buy all that crap your friend has, and everything you have. It's not a big deal at all to me, and also, all the rest of my warrior's gear is the best possible, can you even come close to that?
Obviously you play the game if you have the gear and 95 ukon....

[MarkovChain]

Sam drk and drg say hi. There mythics will make your relics look pointless. And what situations are you talking about? Btw mythics get 180 second aftermaths with level 3. I know that if shoha was triple attacking out of abyssea, that it could be doing 3-5k no problem, and I can see that at 100 tp with aftermath. I'm pretty positive that makes amano and masamune look silly. Drg mythic will make any DD look bad. Liberator will actually make entropy better than it already is.

Nope. All mythic suck and it is known for a long time now. There is always the legend running around that some mythic may be game breaking ; they are not. AM3 is impossible to keep outside of zergs.

[Natenn]

I can't into english

aware, brb no ones ever heard of before i spouted nonsense about ADL

[Fupafighter]

Nope. All mythic suck and it is known for a long time now. There is always the legend running around that some mythic may be game breaking ; they are not. AM3 is impossible to keep outside of zergs.

You do realize how fast sam and drg can get 300 tp right? 1 meditate = 180 tp. Your a moron lol. Can maintain AM3 on drg and sam, and the aftermath will eat any other DD alive.

[Fupafighter]

Drg getting tp every 3 minutes via jumps* and meditate, not 180 meditate too.

[MarkovChain]

You do realize how fast sam and drg can get 300 tp right? 1 meditate = 180 tp. Your a moron lol. Can maintain AM3 on drg and sam, and the aftermath will eat any other DD alive.

You can maintain AM3 on any DD idiot, you are just wasting 2 weapon skills to do so and last I checked DRG 300%TP dragoon's WS doesn't equal to 3 x 100 TP ws, so go back to thinking you have a clue. AM3 is soo short that it's only worth it with at least double march/haste, and since it doesn't overwrite itself you have to stay engaged the whole time or any second while you are not engaged is going to waste.bin. "Riding" AM3 is not realistic for 99% of the content. They remain great weapons to use @ 100 TP though, but probably no the best so stop using AM3 as an argument as to why mythics are great.

The only job where it's possibly the best is PUP because of no relic, and because they didn't gimp the DPS nor the mythic WS, so it's already better than empy at 100 tp probably.

[Karbuncle]

Wasting two Weaponskills to get an Aftermath up that lasts 3 minutes is frankly a drop in the bucket compared to the fact You'd know have a high damage with With Occ Atks 2-3x for 3 minutes. its multiplying your WS Frequency dramatically, which will more than make up for the 2 missed Weaponskills.

And thats assuming you even waste 2 full Weaponskills, You have to consider TP Overflow, from double attacks, what have you. You could get bumped to about 120% TP from just a double attack at the right time, take into consideration for DRG getting over-TP from Jumps, if you hit 100% TP Perfectly, its wasting 2 WS, If you over-TP, which is far more likely, And that TP Won't carry over, so you end up wasting maybe 1 and a half Weaponskills.

I don't think you're horribly wrong, I just think you underestimate the effects of having a your TP-Phase damage, and WS Frequency doubled or higher for 3 minutes.

[MarkovChain]

All aftermaths don't last 3 minutes. Only pup one does I believe. Other mythic last 120 sec = 2 minutes only. In order to maintain aftermath you don't only waste 200TP for the initial AM3, but you do it EVERY cycle, like you will need 300 tp right before AM3 wear off. Let's say it takes 20 sec to build 100 TP, without AM, you will need like ~ 40 sec to build 300 TP so you can only take advantage of AM3 for 1'20s. Needless to say, ALL the mythics weapons beside DRG and PUP are pretty much excluded at this point, aka all the mythics WS that don't suck. For DRG, it probably slightly winning *IF* you can maintain AM3 like I said, but it's not realistic except failwatch I guess. Basically what I'm saying is wasting alex on anything but PUP is a waste of epeen. I'm going to say that AM3 pup beats anything but I never really did the math, my only consideration are the fact that SP w/o mythic boost = victory smite, with a similar DPS as vere but 3 or 4 tier of martial arts, so a normal weapon were you don't have to use AM3 to make it not suck. If you zerk well it's even stronger obviously with AM3 and SP-spam.

[Fupafighter]

All aftermaths don't last 3 minutes. Only pup one does I believe. Other mythic last 120 sec = 2 minutes only. In order to maintain aftermath you don't only waste 200TP for the initial AM3, but you do it EVERY cycle, like you will need 300 tp right before AM3 wear off. Let's say it takes 20 sec to build 100 TP, without AM, you will need like ~ 40 sec to build 300 TP so you can only take advantage of AM3 for 1'20s. Needless to say, ALL the mythics weapons beside DRG and PUP are pretty much excluded at this point, aka all the mythics WS that don't suck. For DRG, it probably slightly winning *IF* you can maintain AM3 like I said, but it's not realistic except failwatch I guess. Basically what I'm saying is wasting alex on anything but PUP is a waste of epeen. I'm going to say that AM3 pup beats anything but I never really did the math, my only consideration are the fact that SP w/o mythic boost = victory smite, with a similar DPS as vere but 3 or 4 tier of martial arts, so a normal weapon were you don't have to use AM3 to make it not suck. If you zerk well it's even stronger obviously with AM3 and SP-spam.

All lvl 80 mythics get 180 seconds of aftermath on lvl 3 aftermath. 75 used to be bad, but you do realize a sam can get 300 tp in a matter of 30 seconds right? And you get a high base damage with OA2-3x and it can proc on ws, thus for 180 seconds, you get say a 2.2k average shoha, turning into a 3.5k+ shoha. That beats the shit out of lol masa or amano. Ryuno will just straight up mess up any DD because drakesbane alone will get a 30% damage boost. Add triple attack on that and you have yourselved the best weapon in the game. Basically put it this way, any 2 hander's best option(except MAYBE warrior) best option is mythic. BLU DNC and WHM all get great bonus's from their mythics too. You are too obsessed with how mediocre relics are thinking that they dominate mythics when you know nothing about mythics.

[Fupafighter]

K so mythic ranged weapons with lvl 3 get 180 seconds of 40% occ double damage and 20% occ triple damage. And then all main hand mythics get 40% double attack and 20% triple attack. I'm guessing if the double and triple attack can proc on weaponskills, the double and triple damage can proc on ws too for mythics. Just saying, your underestimating what the lvl 3 aftermath is capable of. I can understand if your doing weak content like abyssea or sky or dynamis, but in situations like upcoming legion and VW, which are the endgame content that we will be doing the most, I would say that maintaining lvl 3 aftermath on mythic will pretty much push people past any other DD in their category by far.

[MarkovChain]

You didn't prove anything in your post beside throwing random eyeballing damage increase and omg lol I can jump and get 300 tp instantly. DRG or SAM don't have any advantage when using mythics over relics. Anytime you waste any TP on aftermath, the relic guy is going to smoke you with his WS.

[Fupafighter]

You didn't prove anything in your post beside throwing random eyeballing damage increase and omg lol I can jump and get 300 tp instantly. DRG or SAM don't have any advantage when using mythics over relics. Anytime you waste any TP on aftermath, the relic guy is going to smoke you with his WS.
K whatever you say lol. I have seen ryunohige and koga in action, and they are epic. I have seen amano and gugnir, and they are garbage. You do realize sam basically gets no benefits from amano except the lol x3 damage right? And same with gugnir. And does the x3 damage proc on ws for relics?

[Fupafighter]

And yes, you can maintain AMl3 on any DD, but they don't get 180 seconds now do they?... I just think that your only argument is "I have relics, and I'm afraid to admit that mythic's may actually be good, so I'm going to call them garbage".

[Kiyara]

Relic Mnk = incredibly tough? I dunno about that. Every monk I've seen with empyreal seems to blow out any saraphai monk in terms of WS dmg. Final Heaven = lol. Unless you can prove me wrong on that one, show me a screenshot of a relic mnk doing 5-6k Final Heaven then I'll shut up.

[Monchat]

you don't use final heaven you use shijin spiral. I mean even with the lv99 FH boost asuran fist should still be better than FH.

Anyway, about the mythic for jobs like DRG and SAM amd 2Hander in general. Remember occasionally attack thrice is not as good as it looks, a lot of your melee hits are being wasted (over TP).

now for relic versus empy H2H. The average semi-serious player can easilly get either weapons nowaday. spharai 95 verus verth 90, spharai compeltely owns unless zerging with 300TP+impetu s(ADL zerg for example). If you compare wepons with same level, say spharai verus verths @ 99 (both wepons cost aboutt he same $$), spharai still owns, and it has gotten and indirect boost @99 due to gjallarorn +4 now also capping spharai's delay, when the lv 95 Gjallarhorn didnt. thats roughly -5% delay or +5% additional damage.

[Fupafighter]

K so its bad to get the tp faster and have occasional overflow, got ya lol. Better off building tp slower and doing less ws damage. Good call.

[MarkovChain]

You are an idiot. He said it is not as good as what you think it is. It's not enough to say "I'm getting 50% double attack so I'm getting 100% more weapon skills". When will you math out empy sam vs mythic sam already ?

[Fupafighter]

I have 90 masa, and I have seen 95 koga, and I get shit on haha. K so 40% double attack and 20% triple attack that proc on ws for THREE minutes, is not worth it because I could tp overflow. That makes no sense lol. That's like saying thf shouln't stack triple attack gear because it will cause them to occasionally go over 100 lol. Man oh man.... Get a mythic or go on the test servers and try it out. Relic sam and drg don't come close to mythics.

[Monchat]

math it already and prove him wrong. FOr a job liek sam its really easy to calculate your average #hits/melee rounds and #hits/weapon skills, so its also easy to evaluate overTP. For info @ lv 75 for 6-hit build SAMs, over TP was about 15%, i.e 15% of your tp didn't contribute to WS. For example, you don't TP in ganesha's mala (I hope).

[MarkovChain]

I have 90 masa, and I have seen 95 koga, and I get shit on haha. K so 40% double attack and 20% triple attack that proc on ws for THREE minutes, is not worth it because I could tp overflow. That makes no sense lol. That's like saying thf shouln't stack triple attack gear because it will cause them to occasionally go over 100 lol. Man oh man.... Get a mythic or go on the test servers and try it out. Relic sam and drg don't come close to mythics.

I already explained that 300 TP is impossible to maintain and that the paper calculs explain that AM3 kept 100% makes mythics (slightly, like 10-15% maybe) ahead of other weapons. That's the problem, it's impossible too maitain. Not only do you need maxed haste buffs, but for every action you do that consumed seconds during the fight - reengaging a mob, using an item, using a job ability, missing the exact moment to use WS, missing - you lose a few percent of the advantage over the normal TP > 100% >WS >TP weapons. All this is quantifiable, and is a penalty for both type of weapon, but obviously more for mythics. The ONLY reason DRG'weapon doesn't suck is because it's usable @100 TP, same for PUP. The ability to use it for zerg is the cherry on the cake.

[Natenn]

Theres no reasoning with quetz noobs, don't even bother.

[MarkovChain]

Ask your LS noobs to transfer already. We sold the 5 marrows we got yesterday instantly.

Also today's VU is good news for the second SMN in the PT, as ramuh will get PD and won't depop (I think..).

[Kiyara]

Sad that people buy marrows 40-50 mil like it's nothing. Guess people like paying 250 million gil for their relic upgrades. People on my server sell for 40-100 mil and they sell.

[Fupafighter]

K so your forgetting the point lol. How can a sam not maintain a aftermath lvl 3? meditate gives 180 tp....while your gaining that tp, your also swinging. I get 300 tp in 1 meditate timer. That's 20 seconds to basically get 300 tp. 1 rana at 300 = 3, yes I said THREE minutes of aftermath. Meditate timer is 2 minutes, 30 seconds for me. How would it be hard to maintain aftermath level 3. Drg. Drg should be using /sam or /war. Prefered /sam, so they get 60 meditate, and then 2 jumps within 3 minutes. Most jumps average how much? I see my cousin jump for 120 all the time. That doesn't seem like it would take more than a minute to save 300 tp. Give up already, some mythic shit all over relics, and just because you have relic 99s, doesn't mean they're the best in the game. I purposely don't have spharai and amano because they are worse damage wise than my damn 90 empies, and I would gladly make mythic before I made those fail relics.

[MarkovChain]

1) meditate gives 180 tp to an empy sam too which is is about 2 ws.
2) You can't maintain AM3 because there is basically no mob that last more than 3 minutes, even ADL, which has 100K HP, lasts the equivalent for maybe 45 sec... So unless you solo everything with BRD/COR/WHM and your mobs always have 400K HP you can't maintain AM3 without wasting it.
Therefore in 99% of the content you are switching between mobs that may or may not be at camp already, runing from position A to B etc. It's clear at this point that the only thing you do is voidfail, good for you, but that alone doesn't justify doing a mythic SAM.
3) I've explained you that PUP (and *maybe* DRG) will rape any DD with mythic or not, with AM3 or not, because the WS doesn't suck @ 100 TP. Any alex wasted on other jobs is fail, unless you have tremendous amount of gil of course.
4) Where is the best gear right now ? Think about it.

[Fupafighter]

1) meditate gives 180 tp to an empy sam too which is is about 2 ws.
2) You can't maintain AM3 because there is basically no mob that last more than 3 minutes, even ADL, which has 100K HP, lasts the equivalent for maybe 45 sec... So unless you solo everything with BRD/COR/WHM and your mobs always have 400K HP you can't maintain AM3 without wasting it.
Therefore in 99% of the content you are switching between mobs that may or may not be at camp already, runing from position A to B etc. It's clear at this point that the only thing you do is voidfail, good for you, but that alone doesn't justify doing a mythic SAM.
3) I've explained you that PUP (and *maybe* DRG) will rape any DD with mythic or not, with AM3 or not, because the WS doesn't suck @ 100 TP. Any alex wasted on other jobs is fail, unless you have tremendous amount of gil of course.
4) Where is the best gear right now ? Think about it.
Dynamis, VW, Legion. You do realize some people only have 1-2 jobs that they actually plan on making weapons for, so why not go all out. It's YOUR view of wasted gil, because you gear all your jobs with LOLrelics. Sam can easily maintain AM3, and there's no denying it, or you just don't play sam enough lol. I'm not going to do the math, because it's common sense lol. Amano get's kaiten, big whoopy. Sam doesn't rely on tp phase to do damage, and amano surely isn't going to put it on par with its ws frequency. Why would any sam in their right mind use amano. 1 hit ws have 95% acc, and any proper sam will have good acc is their ws set, therefore amano is USELESS compared to masa or koga for 99% of monsters in this game. Masamune 99 is a great option, only about 200 mil, provides 20 str, and the ability to fudo, which has good SC properties. Kaiten even with 40% damage bonus is still weak. You obviously don't understand sam and I give up. Am3 on drg and sam are the easiest to keep at lvl3, and provide amazing boosts to their jobs. And no pup will not "rape" every other DD lol. Their TP gain is extremely slow compared to drg, samurai, warrior, drk, even dnc. They could never maintain a proper DPS to compete unless they activated lvl 3 aftermath, even with their pets. Not hating on pup, just sayin it's not the best DD out there lol. And barely anyone does your damn ADL because there is alot more to the game then dynamis and farming damn marrows.

[MarkovChain]

My SAM is level 0 and there is a reason. Just for your info relic monk is slightly ahead of empy monk outside of zergs, so relics are not "lol", they are just the best normal weapons typically.

1) eyeballing, amano is garbage and empy sam is better. But anything is better than SAM anyway. So stop trying to imply I said the sam relic iis the best weapon.
2) Yes pup will rape any other DD (incl mnk) with kenkonken most likely. Their mythic is = the dps of vere with a WS that = 1.4 x victory smite and -40 delay or something huge, plus they can use it at 100 TP unlike other fail mythics. The pet is just the cherry on the cake.
3) TP gain means nothing, what matter is pure damage from dot. Don't make us laugh with you 150 DMG 450 DMG weapons ; a relic MNK is outputting ~266 damage in 280 delay (2 fist @ 117 DMG, 30% chance at a kick), is gaining TP slightly slowlier than SAM but has a better WS lol, better crit rate and attack (impetus).

I can math out a comparison of TP gain from SAM and mnk they are not too far either. At cap haste you are looking at like 6.18 rounds on average to get 100% TP on spharai monks (less as vere monks obviously). With 2x march (hasso for lol SAM) both will get ~100 delay between rounds so you are looking at :
6.18x100/60 = 10.3 seconds for one weapon skill
while on 450 delay-6 hits SAMs it's close to
5*100/60=8.33 seconds
So no SAM don't get TP extremely fast compared to monks or pup lolz. Once you realise the monk did WAY MORE dot during those 10 sec than the SAM did during 8sec, and that mnk's WS will put the SAM ws to shame, the comparison is sealed.

Now consider Kenkonken PUP like a slighty slow monk with a 40% boost on his weaponskill, you get the picture, and that's only when using KKK @ 100 TP. If the PUP strats using his AM3 on a zerk he can only win. I think my ws on ADl do like 2-4K damage on monk, that should be 2.8-5.6k on pup and more frequently, though for our strat that won't matter since we tend to hold damage (and anyone doing adl should hold until 25%).

[Fupafighter]

Did you really just compare tp gain of a mnk and a sam lol? Man you know nothing about sam and you're talkin as if you're a pro on it. Look up Ikishoten and the new zanshin with hasso. half the time sam ends up with TP overflow from just using hasso. Via you get a hasso zanshin proc at 80% tp with a 5 hit build in 36% haste solo. I know war/sam can't come close to a samurai TP gain, and that is with retalliation tanking too, so no way in hell can a mnk come close. You don't know anything about sam. How can you trash on a job you don't even play lol? And not everyone runs around in double march situations.... I kinda can't believe how you're saying "outside of zerg" situations it's not good lol. Ok so then they have a 90 masamune for when they aren't in a zerg situation, (which is rare for sam btw). It's not like masamune takes any effort. And I guarentee you, you're one of the very few that would contest the idea of a mythic sam being worse than a masamune samurai lol, less yet thinking any other job comes close to a samurai tp gain.

[Fupafighter]

Oh and have you seen shoha? It's a pretty consistant 3k+ when buffed. I have spiked up to 5.5k with just double attack....No'one is going to contest the idea that MOST mythics can't maintain lvl 3 AM outside of zerg(like VW), but saying samurai and drg can't maintain the lvl 3 just makes me think you have no idea what you're talking about. And yes, yes I have 90 verethregna too. It doesn't come close to sam tp gain.

[MarkovChain]

How can you trash on a job you don't even play lol?

Because it's fairly aysy to math out and was already done long ago while we still were at 75. Since you play SAM you should be able to inform us on the average time it takes you to reach 100 TP. Somehow I bet you can't give anything serious, mentionning Zanshin shows that you have no real clue of what makes or breaks TP gain. I'll do it for you though. But I'm sure you are going to contest it anyway lol.

[Fupafighter]

Because you're talking about a 75 sam tp gain lol. Standard sam has a 5 hit with 25% haste in gear alone. With a 437 delay. With meditate being triple of a subjob samurai. Hassozanshin is a 25% proc rate, from my understanding, and gives almost 60 tp when it does proc. And all your scenareos are basically "I have a brd double marching me so tp gain isn't an issue", when be realistic, 95% of the playerbase doesn't get double marched fulltime. Half the time on my samurai, I end up with 160 tp just from hassozanshin procing or I can self sc w.o using meditate or sekkanoki, how in the hell is samurai garbage lol?

[MarkovChain]

Not it's not 25% proc rate it is 25% of your base zanshin rate, it would act as a 11% DA rate except that QA TA an DA will be check first. Let's imagine you have 20 DA rate and 3% TA rate it would give roughly

with hasso+zanshin 1+0.03*2+0.97*(0.20*1+ 0.80*( 0.11*1 ) )=1.339 attacks on average
without 1+0.03*2+0.97*0.20*1=1.2540
It acts about as 9% DA rate. granted it gives more TP every time it proc but really it neglesctable seeing as this happen on 10% of your melee rounds.

You play SAM and have no clue what influence your DPS in what proportion. Meditade is definitely a minor part in SAM's TP gain. At best it is like 2 min 30 recast, what does this mean when it takes you 8 seconds to get 100 TP ??? It's funny that you are now mentionning that "you don't always have double march" because it's a neccessity to make any mythic AM3 worthwhile. So now when things go wrong with your arguments you try anything to counter it. I'm standing on my point that 2xmarch-hasso-6hit SAM takes roughly 8 sec to build 100 TP while monk takes 10. But maybe you'll find argument for getting TP faster than 8 seconds lol, who knows.

[Fupafighter]

Not it's not 25% proc rate it is 25% of your base zanshin rate, it would act as a 11% DA rate except that QA TA an DA will be check first. Let's imagine you have 20 DA rate and 3% TA rate it would give roughly

with hasso+zanshin 1+0.03*2+0.97*(0.20*1+ 0.80*( 0.11*1 ) )=1.339 attacks on average
without 1+0.03*2+0.97*0.20*1=1.2540
It acts about as 9% DA rate. granted it gives more TP every time it proc but really it neglesctable seeing as this happen on 10% of your melee rounds.

You play SAM and have no clue what influence your DPS in what proportion. Meditade is definitely a minor part in SAM's TP gain. At best it is like 2 min 30 recast, what does this mean when it takes you 8 seconds to get 100 TP ??? It's funny that you are now mentionning that "you don't always have double march" because it's a neccessity to make any mythic AM3 worthwhile. So now when things go wrong with your arguments you try anything to counter it. I'm standing on my point that 2xmarch-hasso-6hit SAM takes roughly 8 sec to build 100 TP while monk takes 10. But maybe you'll find argument for getting TP faster than 8 seconds lol, who knows. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qhm7-LEBznk&feature=related That dumb blonde is basically you, because you're retarded. Just done talking to you lol. You even think pld sucks.

[MarkovChain]

Quickly running out of arguments.

[hiko]

6.18x100/60 = 10.3 seconds for one weapon skill
while on 450 delay-6 hits SAMs it's close to
5*100/60=8.33 seconds




LOL! 6hit 450delay sam?
you count average rate for a mnk VS a sam not getting TP from zanshin hits, and a fail build?

using your "hasted delay aproximation" but a 5hit (still not bothering with zanshin procs)
4*100/60=6.66...

[Monchat]

what exactly are you trying to prove? The mythic GK has 450 delay not 437. and the general concensus is that 6 hit > 5 hit due to over TP I thought. Give me your zanshin rate, your double attack/triple/quadruple rate and I'll give you your average hits till 100 TP (hint: not 4*100/600), its a complicated formula...

[Fupafighter]

K so. http://www.ffxiah.com/members/item-sets?id=244987 thats my tp set for a 5 hit til I get my hands on that new gear. 90 masa. And this http://www.ffxiah.com/members/item-sets?id=124818 is my ws set. Put in tp bonus instead of my centauri, as I am almost done with WOTG. I have mnk and sam both 90 empies, I can guarentee you sam gets tp faster, both /war.

[Fupafighter]

Oh and I forgot to change hands to brego.

[Fupafighter]

what exactly are you trying to prove? The mythic GK has 450 delay not 437. and the general concensus is that 6 hit > 5 hit due to over TP I thought. Give me your zanshin rate, your double attack/triple/quadruple rate and I'll give you your average hits till 100 TP (hint: not 4*100/600), its a complicated formula...
Keep forgetting that. And with 450 delay, i can drop off some store tp for more attack/double attack.

[Karbuncle]

what exactly are you trying to prove? The mythic GK has 450 delay not 437. and the general concensus is that 6 hit > 5 hit due to over TP I thought. Give me your zanshin rate, your double attack/triple/quadruple rate and I'll give you your average hits till 100 TP (hint: not 4*100/600), its a complicated formula...

Well, the General consensus on 6hit > 5hit was due to what gear needed to be sacrificed in order to obtain a 5-hit, But I believe that was around the 90 Cap, Now theres a bit more Store TP Gear available, and its a little easier to 5-hit.

It was never because of TP Over flow. No ones going to pass on something because it might make them "too powerful". TP Overflow doesn't hurt anything, and since most SAM WS's damage varies with TP, it actually helps them in a good way, even if by a small amount.

[Fupafighter]

Well, the General consensus on 6hit > 5hit was due to what gear needed to be sacrificed in order to obtain a 5-hit, But I believe that was around the 90 Cap, Now theres a bit more Store TP Gear available, and its a little easier to 5-hit.

It was never because of TP Over flow. No ones going to pass on something because it might make them "too powerful". TP Overflow doesn't hurt anything, and since most SAM WS's damage varies with TP, it actually helps them in a good way, even if by a small amount.

Yes very true. And new samurai sets in the near future will have a 26% 5 hit :D If we ever get our hands on neo nyzle gear. Atm, samurai's should have 24% atleast and a 5 hit, or your doing it wrong.

[MarkovChain]

since most SAM WS's damage varies with TP, it actually helps them in a good way, even if by a small amount.

Ws with damage varies with TP are tiered @ 100/200/300 so tp ing at 100 or 120 doesn't change shit and if it did it would be pointless. Th epoint of mdk is that it's not enough to claim that 5 hit > 6 hit. There are way too many factors implied in the comparison. 5 hit leads to gimp WS, slower TP build, and in general 5 hit or 6 build don't mean anything because of the many multiattack gear & zanshin than can happen. What matters is computing the exact #rounds per ws on average, accounting for accuracy, DA/TA/QA, or even OAT, and in the case of SAM znashin (with 2 different consideration from hasso zanshin and normal zanshin). But I don't expect much from him seeing as he already explained that hasso+zanshin procs 25% of the time. One consideration that complicates the computation is that some multuattack are checked first and some last. Also I'm sure motenten spreadsheet does it.

[MarkovChain]

Yes very true. And new samurai sets in the near future will have a 26% 5 hit :D If we ever get our hands on neo nyzle gear. Atm, samurai's should have 24% atleast and a 5 hit, or your doing it wrong.

Can you math out how much stronger your 5 hit is over you 6 hit or is this just another random claim ? When I did math out 5 hit vs 6 hit back in the days where BG could do math, the difference between 5 hits and 6 hits builds was generally a few % only. Most likely the greatest stat you are sacrificing is attack, which obviously is the main concern for a WS, even at 100% mod. Noone cares about haste anymore because anyone can cap haste it's just a matter of what you are giving up. Finally there this little thing that you systematically avoid in the discussion, aka TP overflow, which is all the mor important than x-build is low. So it's not exagerated to say that a myythic 5-hit is never 2 rounds exactly making the 5 build sacrifices useless.

[hiko]

what exactly are you trying to prove? The mythic GK has 450 delay not 437. and the general concensus is that 6 hit > 5 hit due to over TP I thought
if you use mythic GK 6hit, you dont have 1hit/per round



Give me your zanshin rate, your double attack/triple/quadruple rate and I'll give you your average hits till 100 TP (hint: not 4*100/600), its a complicated formula...
agree on this but why didn't you reply to pchan using 5*100/60 for sam WS speed?

pcahn use number coming from nowhere to show that mnk doesnt TP way slower than sam, i took his number and just changed 6hit to 5hit. if he would have used some calculated round/WS instead of a lol 5 i wouldn't have said anything

[MarkovChain]

I can guarentee you sam gets tp faster, both /war.

Your point ? You said much faster stop trying to save face. Doing math right now.



agree on this but why didn't you reply to pchan using 5*100/60 for sam WS speed?

pcahn use number coming from nowhere to show that mnk doesnt TP way slower than sam, i took his number and just changed 6hit to 5hit. if he would have used some calculated round/WS instead of a lol 5 i wouldn't have said anything

You probably missed the "approximate part". The numbers I gave for monk are not pulled out of my ass, they are the exact ones... Just the SAM one is slightly above reality (or under reality with tp overflow).

[MarkovChain]

6 hits builds
Same as above except I'm using 50 store TP (why ? doesn't matter.. It's a 6-hit build). 39.7 tp on ikkishoten.

3.81 rounds on averages.
With a 450 delay GK, and 40% haste this gives
3.81*450*0.6/60+120/60=19.1 sec for 100 TP
On monk (spharai) it gives
6.18*(275+86)*0.6/60+2=24.3 sec
On monk (vere) it gives
6.49*(275+51)*0.6/60+2=23.1 sec

So hmm yeah you still only a few seconds faster, in 25 sec you do like one more weapon skill, I don't see how it's going to make you build TP extremely faster than MNK as you explained ?


If you manage to 5 hit it thats another story. I computed that you need 83 store TP to make 5 hit and actual increase over 6 hit, but you won't realistically be able to do that... Oh and no I didn't get that number because I failed to multiply 11.5 by 1.74, but because 74 store TP doesn't mix well with zanshin. You need 21+ TP per hit to make a 450-delay 5-hit build worth a damn.

[Fupafighter]

6 hits builds
Same as above except I'm using 50 store TP (why ? doesn't matter.. It's a 6-hit build). 39.7 tp on ikkishoten.

3.81 rounds on averages.
With a 450 delay GK, and 40% haste this gives
3.81*450*0.6/60+120/60=19.1 sec for 100 TP
On monk (spharai) it gives
6.18*(275+86)*0.6/60+2=24.3 sec
On monk (vere) it gives
6.49*(275+51)*0.6/60+2=23.1 sec

So hmm yeah you still only a few seconds faster, in 25 sec you do like one more weapon skill, I don't see how it's going to make you build TP extremely faster than MNK as you explained ?


If you manage to 5 hit it thats another story. I computed that you need 83 store TP to make 5 hit and actual increase over 6 hit, but you won't realistically be able to do that... Oh and no I didn't get that number because I failed to multiply 11.5 by 1.74, but because 74 store TP doesn't mix well with zanshin. You need 21+ TP per hit to make a 450-delay 5-hit build worth a damn.
If you look at sam tp builds, you will realize nothing really changes except 6 hit to 5 hit (for the smart sams). Having a 5 hit opens opportunities to ws skillchain off your meditates and occasionally SC w.o even using meditate. 6 hit for sam literally offers NOTHING. I have used both. IDGAF what your retarded calculations say, because if you actually play the job, you would know how to take advantage of what your given. a 6 hit sam tp set literally only gives 1.5% more haste, no double attack, and takes away all bonuses of the occasional self SC, which is around 10% from how many times I've done it. A hit hit sam gains no extra double attack, maybe they gain some zanshin if they use LOLaces mufflers. You have no idea what you're talking about lol. 6 hit is retarded. Only situation where you would use that, is if your in abyssea, or for some reason you're using regain atmacite in VW over tp bonus.... Learn the fuckin job before you try to give retarded calculations on a "6 hit" and saying "5 hit" is useless.

[MarkovChain]

Still no 5 hit TP set ? Why don't you post it. Show me this 83 store TP build. Also you don't need to start insulting me just because I proved you wrong.

First you claimed that mdeditate was the reason SAM were getting TP vastly faster than monk. wrong.
Then it was zanshin. wrong.
Then it was 5 hit builds. =still no exemple.
Now it is because you can self skillchain lol.

Seriously, facepalm. What will come next ? store tp rolls ? delay rolls ?

[hiko]

6 hits builds
Same as above except I'm using 50 store TP (why ? doesn't matter.. It's a 6-hit build). 39.7 tp on ikkishoten.

3.81 rounds on averages.
With a 450 delay GK, and 40% haste this gives
3.81*450*0.6/60+120/60=19.1 sec for 100 TP
On monk (spharai) it gives
6.18*(275+86)*0.6/60+2=24.3 sec
On monk (vere) it gives
6.49*(275+51)*0.6/60+2=23.1 sec

So hmm yeah you still only a few seconds faster, in 25 sec you do like one more weapon skill, I don't see how it's going to make you build TP extremely faster than MNK as you explained ?



i assume 40 haste you use in your math is gear +spell, but sam will get hasso too (12.5 since you can cap gear haste using af2+2 legs for 6hit 450delay)
3.81*450*.475/60+120/60=15.6

43.3 magic haste (cap)
sam:43.3+25+12.5=80.8=>80
3.81*450*.2/60+2=7.715
vere=43.3+25=68.3
6.49*(275+51)*.317/60+2=13.1

(i take caped on purpose because it over cap sam and "favor" mnk)

[MarkovChain]

You can account for all the haste that favor SAM more than monk, doesn't matter. While doing so makes sam WS nearly twice as much as MNK, it's enough for them to match MNK because of their lack of being a DD. All they are good at is TP feeding and WS spamming. And in the case of the mythic noone can seriously expect the sam to use a ws exactly every 3 seconds. I don't see any situation where you play like this. I still didn't see pupafighters do anything but brag and throwing random "I know because I play ze job" arguments.

[Fupafighter]

http://www.ffxiah.com/members/item-sets?id=244987 <--- 5 hit sam with 24% haste. This is a gimp build too. It only takes 69 store tp in gear and 5/5 merits. And this is 437 delay too. You obviously are talking about something you don't know about. I don't see mnk self scing because they gained tp so fast w.o marches and haste, personally because I have mnk with 90 verethregna too. I'm not saying sam is the better DD, but SAM TP's faster, by alot.

[MarkovChain]

Your link don't work, second time I'm saying it. Suck less already. 79 store TP is not enough for a 5 hit build, I've explained it to you earlier, you need 83 to make it work or else your beloved zanshin makes it almost the same a 6 hit. Going to explain tthis to SAM noobs :

[Fupafighter]

Your link don't work, second time I'm saying it. Suck less already. 79 store TP is not enough for a 5 hit build, I've explained it to you earlier, you need 83 to make it work or else your beloved zanshin makes it almost the same a 6 hit. Going to explain tthis to SAM noobs :

You're retarded lol. It's a 5 hit. Because I have been using it for a year now almost. Store tp 5 = 30. 5 merits = 10 more. That's 40 alone. SO that pushes sam to 15.1 tp a swing alone with masamune on job traits. Now add 69 store tp to that. That gives 22. With some occasional 21s. Tp return is on average 16-17 tp. 17+21+21+21+21. Add it up moron. Stop talking about sam anyday now, as yours is lvl 0.

[MarkovChain]

The following program is simulating SAM with 450 delay GKT, x=TP per hit, y= tp return on ws, z= tp on zanshin.


N:=100:
> for i from 1 to N do
>
> acc:=stats[random,uniform[0,1]](1);
> if acc<0.95 then TP:=y; else TP:=0; end if;
>
>
> M:=0;
>
> while TP < 100 do
> M:=M+1;
>
>
> acc:=stats[random,uniform[0,1]](1);
>
> if acc<0.95 then TP:=TP+x;
> else Z:=stats[random,uniform[0,1]](1);acc:=stats[random,uniform[0,1]](1);
> if Z<0.45 and acc<0.95 then TP:=TP+z;end if;
> end if;
>
> DA:=stats[random,uniform[0,1]](1);
>
> if DA<0.20 then acc:=stats[random,uniform[0,1]](1);if acc<0.95 then TP:=TP+10;end if;
> else ZH:=stats[random,uniform[0,1]](1);acc:=stats[random,uniform[0,1]](1);
> if ZH<0.115 and acc<0.95 then TP:=TP+2*z-x; end if;
> end if;
> end do;
> S:=S+M;
>
>
> end do:S/N*1.0;

With your fail 5-hit build, x=20.5 tp per hit, y=20.5 (assumed, inbe4 less), z=47.4
=>3.564 rounds per WS. It's a fake 6-hit build.

With 82 store TP (total) you would get x=20.9, y=20.9 (inbefore less), z=48.2
=> 3.497 rounds per WS.

the problem is that old builds are now 5-hits already past 74 store tp

Here is the listing of average rounds / ws based on store tp value.

1.60, 3.806000000
1.61, 3.801000000
1.62, 3.851000000
1.63, 3.856000000
1.64, 3.897000000
1.65, 3.751000000 <- merits + full AF3+2
1.66, 3.834000000
1.67, 3.821000000
1.68, 3.802000000
1.69, 3.825000000
1.70, 3.860000000
1.71, 3.839000000
1.72, 3.741000000
1.73, 3.816000000
1.74, 3.476000000 <- rajas+ whatever basically
1.75, 3.454000000
1.76, 3.492000000
1.77, 3.427000000
1.78, 3.506000000
1.79, 3.506000000
1.80, 3.481000000
1.81, 3.517000000
1.82, 3.471000000
1.83, 3.514000000
1.84, 3.484000000
1.85, 3.478000000
1.86, 3.504000000
1.87, 3.469000000
1.88, 3.456000000
1.89, 3.490000000
1.90, 3.537000000
1.91, 3.461000000
1.92, 3.497000000
1.93, 3.448000000
1.94, 3.458000000
1.95, 3.428000000
1.96, 3.173000000 <- in your dreams
1.97, 3.214000000
1.98, 3.175000000
1.99, 3.181000000
2.00, 3.186000000

The above listing shows you that x build means nothing anymore. Tiers are 74 store TP and then 93 store TP. First one should be a joke to get.

[MarkovChain]

You're retarded lol. It's a 5 hit. Because I have been using it for a year now almost. Store tp 5 = 30. 5 merits = 10 more. That's 40 alone. SO that pushes sam to 15.1 tp a swing alone with masamune on job traits. Now add 69 store tp to that. That gives 22. With some occasional 21s. Tp return is on average 16-17 tp. 17+21+21+21+21. Add it up moron. Stop talking about sam anyday now, as yours is lvl 0.
No it's just that I'm better than you, look above. That's how you compute an x-build. Your are calculating like prehistoric FFXI players. An x build is not calculated by getting enough TP per swing to match 5*tp >=100, but by computing an average rounds / ws, precisely because zanshin doesn't give the same tp per hit. You math would only work pre level-74 basically. 5-hit build don't exist anymore, or you can see them as the previous 6 hit ones. No idea how this changes for 437 delay, you probably have to get 80+ store tp to match 450 GK.

PS: that's what you get with easy mode game.

[Fupafighter]

You seriously in denial that sam gets a 5 hit with 24% haste easy lol?

[Monchat]

He is right though, nowadays you have so many multi hit attacks per round that talkign about "x-hit builds" is pointless. There are tiers where your X-build jumps by a large amount, while other stp level offer almost nothing ( like any DD). Though you must remember that "5-hit builds" need 20+ tp /swing inorder to not waste meditate. Fake 5-hits those that start from a WS return <20TP) are worthless.

[Fupafighter]

He is right though, nowadays you have so many multi hit attacks per round that talkign about "x-hit builds" is pointless. There are tiers where your X-build jumps by a large amount, while other stp level offer almost nothing ( like any DD). Though you must remember that "5-hit builds" need 20+ tp /swing inorder to not waste meditate. Fake 5-hits those that start from a WS return <20TP) are worthless.
That's why when you use meditate, say instead of using bullwhip, you use goading macro instead while meditate is active. I just hate the fact that he is saying 5 hits and sams are bad. My point is that a 6 hit sam seriously benefits nothing at all compared to a 5 hit. Yes, in regain situations, 6 hit will win, because it ultimately becomes a 5 hit. But in dyna, legion, you can take advantage of a 5 hit greatly over a 6 hit. Just saying. I've used both. Shit just dies faster with a 5 hit(for sam). War drg drk and such, yeah they seem bad, but for sam, they are good.

[Fupafighter]

My point basically is this. If a sam is using a 6 hit to cap haste, they aren't gaining any multi attack in their sets compared to the standard 5 hit sam. So it comes down to this 20 attack and 75 hp and a few acc with 26% haste, or 5 hit sam with 24% haste. Which would you prefer >.>

[MarkovChain]

You didn't read. I've been telling you that what you think is a 5 hits equals the same frequency as a 6 hit. Look at my numbers, 3.8 average rounds per WS. It's not 4.8 it's 3.8. If you don't agree with this or if I miscalulated it means I underestimated the # rounds /ws..

[Fupafighter]

Man you're not understanding me either. K so 6 hit ws the same from just swinging OVERTIME IN THE LONG RUN. But are you factoring in the "I ws right before I swing to have a chance to self sc if I hassozanshin proc double attack", or meditate SC 3x off that meditate? No, you are not. Because you don't play the job, you don't know about how to take advantage of proper ws timing and use of JA. A 6 hit is not going to be able to do those extra tricks. They may have the same frequency on your little spreadsheet, but from experience, 6 hit sam cannot self sc and take advantage of those opportunities like a 5 hit sam. Thus less sc, less ws. I'm done now. You don't know the job at all, you're going by what you read, and it's disapointing me.

[Karbuncle]

I like Mark's new avatar, It expresses perfectly everyones face when they see him post.

I wuv these forums sometimes.

[Fupafighter]

I like Mark's new avatar, It expresses perfectly everyones face when they see him post.

I wuv these forums sometimes.

Please say you agree with me though karb lol. This guy doesn't understand sam at all haha.

[Karbuncle]

I don't know enough about SAM to make that leap, but I'll read over it :o

[Fupafighter]

I don't know enough about SAM to make that leap, but I'll read over it :o

Even common sense says that sam TP faster than mnk lol.

[Alkimi]

Common sense says this shit should have been locked before it got to the second page.

[MarkovChain]

Man you're not understanding me either. K so 6 hit ws the same from just swinging OVERTIME IN THE LONG RUN. But are you factoring in the "I ws right before I swing to have a chance to self sc if I hassozanshin proc double attack", or meditate SC 3x off that meditate? No, you are not.

What the hell does this even mean. "I ws right before I swing". Idk, what kind of noob doesn't ws right when it gets 100+ tps? You are going back to meditage and self skillchains ? wtf ?

[Fupafighter]

It means if you ws on sam right before you know your going to swing, you have a chance to hassozanshin double attack and get 100 tp fast enough to self sc if you're lucky. One factor alot of sams never use. In no way am I wasting tp, I am wsing right before I gain more tp.

[MarkovChain]

I'm sorry but do you play the game ? Any job uses a WS right before a swing. This game uses an auto attack system. Not sure how you can WS and then decide to not to TP.

[Fupafighter]

And this is exactly why I think you're seriously a retard. "perfect defense double march everything raaaahhhhg mnks rule". That's all I pretty much see you as. You're a bad player. F off lol

[Dart]

it isn't that he's a bad player, he just plays a brain dead job.

[hiko]

So hmm yeah you still only a few seconds faster, in 25 sec you do like one more weapon skill, I don't see how it's going to make you build TP extremely faster than MNK as you explained ?

.


You can account for all the haste that favor SAM more than monk, doesn't matter. While doing so makes sam WS nearly twice as much as MNK, .

now you see it?
was not about who is the best DD, but your denial than sam TP faster than mnk

[Monchat]

the amount of noob in this thread is beyond belief. Karbunckle who doesnt not know wtf but argues for sake of argument. Pupyfighter who weaponskills right before a melee hit like a pro. Hiko who has reading comprehension and thinks the mythic has 437 delay, and neither know wtf a 5-hit is apparently. Are you guys the new BG gurus.

[Kiyara]

I like how this thread turned into a mnk vs sam debate over what the point of the thread was about. Typical derail. Gotta love that "show me e-penis" crap.

[FrankReynolds]

Pupyfighter who weaponskills right before a melee hit like a pro.

You must time your WS very carefully when fighting FUPA (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=FUPA)

[Catsby]

In this thread we math out damage dealing classes to see the highest damage output but forget bosses go through phases and use AoE and need procs and sometimes heal when taking damage and a bunch of other stuff that makes us feel dumb :3