New to Blu and have a few questions... (can't find answers)

[Rochetm]

I have been messing around with blu and I think I am going to level it up (currently 16). I am on a fresh account, came back after a few year break. I have a few questions I want answered before I really focus on this job.

Is there no gear better then Mavi? I see every blu in this stuff all the time. Seen a few videos with blu in them that never take the stuff off(No blinking). Is the gear really that good or is there better gear and people are just lazy/suck? I ask because I hate the way that gear looks.

Is there a list somewhere of all the buffs and debuffs blu gets? I just want an idea of what all blu can do.

What subjobs are needed? I have Dnc and War all done and Nin will be in a few more levels. Seems Pld, Sch and Rdm have some uses but not sure if I need them or not... also don't know if any others are needed.

Is there a level where blu stops being broken? At 16 blu is nuts and I am just wondering if and how much it slows down.

Looking at some of the spells I have come to the conclusion that blu is a jack of all trades. Is this a correct assessment?

And finally does pollen always suck? I have gotten almost all my spells within 3 critters using it, most of them on the first try. But not pollen. I am actually sick of killing bees and not learning it.

[Prothscar]

Is there no gear better then Mavi? I see every blu in this stuff all the time. Seen a few videos with blu in them that never take the stuff off(No blinking). Is the gear really that good or is there better gear and people are just lazy/suck? I ask because I hate the way that gear looks.


There's much better gear. People who do not swap gear on BLU are, quite frankly, imbeciles. Do not be one of them. Examples of gear sets may be found on my FFXIAH page (http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Valefor/Prothescar#item-sets). Mavi head, body, and legs are acceptable pieces for TP until you acquire the harder to get pieces in those sets. Aim for the big hitters of DD stats for your TP set, focusing on DEX, Double Attack, Triple Attack, Accuracy, Attack, and Critical Hit Rate. The rest should be self explanatory and you should be able to draw reasonable conclusions as to what would be good in what slot based on my sets.



Is there a list somewhere of all the buffs and debuffs blu gets? I just want an idea of what all blu can do.


Don't know if any of it has been transcribed onto wikis yet, but I have a compendium of BLU spell modifiers and effects (magnitude and durations included). (http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/37619-Blue-Mage-Job-Findings?p=5038571&viewfull=1#post5038571)



What subjobs are needed? I have Dnc and War all done and Nin will be in a few more levels. Seems Pld, Sch and Rdm have some uses but not sure if I need them or not... also don't know if any others are needed.


WAR, RDM, NIN, and DNC are the only critical ones. WAR is your general purpose DD sub, RDM is mainly for cleaving and solo, NIN is for more defensive-offensive play (and sometimes soloing), and DNC is for Dynamis. Some would suggest SCH for Campaign, but I prefer /RDM.



Is there a level where blu stops being broken? At 16 blu is nuts and I am just wondering if and how much it slows down.


Not really. It gets better the higher you go; the sheer amount of things that you can do with BLU if you know how to play the job is greater than any other.



Looking at some of the spells I have come to the conclusion that blu is a jack of all trades. Is this a correct assessment?


More or less, however DD is the niche that we excel best at.



And finally does pollen always suck? I have gotten almost all my spells within 3 critters using it, most of them on the first try. But not pollen. I am actually sick of killing bees and not learning it.


The spell itself? Yeah. It's good at lower levels until you get a stronger cure (Wild Carrot will be your next one). As for learning it, welcome to BLU. Some spells will give you no trouble, others will want to make you tear your hair out in disdain. It's all worth it in the end.

[Rochetm]

There's much better gear. People who do not swap gear on BLU are, quite frankly, imbeciles. Do not be one of them. Examples of gear sets may be found on my FFXIAH page (http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Valefor/Prothescar#item-sets). Mavi head, body, and legs are acceptable pieces for TP until you acquire the harder to get pieces in those sets. Aim for the big hitters of DD stats for your TP set, focusing on DEX, Double Attack, Triple Attack, Accuracy, Attack, and Critical Hit Rate. The rest should be self explanatory and you should be able to draw reasonable conclusions as to what would be good in what slot based on my sets.



Don't know if any of it has been transcribed onto wikis yet, but I have a compendium of BLU spell modifiers and effects (magnitude and durations included). (http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/37619-Blue-Mage-Job-Findings?p=5038571&viewfull=1#post5038571)



WAR, RDM, NIN, and DNC are the only critical ones. WAR is your general purpose DD sub, RDM is mainly for cleaving and solo, NIN is for more defensive-offensive play (and sometimes soloing), and DNC is for Dynamis. Some would suggest SCH for Campaign, but I prefer /RDM.



Not really. It gets better the higher you go; the sheer amount of things that you can do with BLU if you know how to play the job is greater than any other.



More or less, however DD is the niche that we excel best at.



The spell itself? Yeah. It's good at lower levels until you get a stronger cure (Wild Carrot will be your next one). As for learning it, welcome to BLU. Some spells will give you no trouble, others will want to make you tear your hair out in disdain. It's all worth it in the end.


Thank you. This is exactly what I needed. The spell list is perfect. Going through wiki and clicking each spell was becoming annoying.

[Tashan]

My best friend is levelling BLU atm and is absolutely loving it. I'm really amazed with her enthusiasm to want to play the job well and seeing her grow is practically the only reason I log in.

You sound a lot like her Rochetm. I'd like to share some the advice I gave her with you:

1. BLU is arguably the deepest job in the game. It's good to be aware that there is a lot to learn, and it will take time.

2. Whilst this may be the deepest job, don't try to learn everything at once. It's very easy to become confused.

3. Please please ask questions. Ask them again, and again and with different people.

4. Prioritise. Focuse on getting spells and support jobs before equipment. Knowing the mechanics of your options is more important than getting equipment.

5. Lastly, and most importantly, please have fun. Do not be afraid to experiment and try things which we don't say. The more fun you have, the more you'll want to play, the stronger you'll become.

[Rochetm]

1. BLU is arguably the deepest job in the game. It's good to be aware that there is a lot to learn, and it will take time.



This is actually something that has interested me. It reminds me of Bard in EQ. They had a huge selection of spells(songs but same difference) and knowing when each one was useful was a lot of fun and made the good bards stand out. With a bit of creativity and planning bard could pull off a lot of things that many other classes never could.

The more I look at the spell list and job traits the more I think that it really is an job I would enjoy. The only job I know I really enjoy is Ninja. I have always liked dual wield/one handers over 2 handed weapons and I like being able to do stuff like debuff and do magical damage even if it isn't as good as a blm.

[SpankWustler]

In no particular order:

Learning magic can be smooth and swift like a big, loamy poop after eating a bowl of Fiber-O's or it can be more horrible than the gastrointestinal result of eating six Doritos Locos Tacos Supreme. The only thing you can maybe, maybe, do to help is keep your Blue Magic skill high and wear AF hands when trying to learn something. The random thing is ultimately very random, sadly.

I'm going to second what Prothescar said about everything being macro pieces, because it's very important for Blue Mage. If somebody is using the same stuffs for everything on Blue Mage, I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that person will be half as potent as a Blue Mage who uses the appropriate type of equipment for various things.

Even if you can't get the best equipment, there's still a huge benefit to using the appropriate type of equipment for each spell, weaponskill, etc as well as having a good set for just hitting stuff with your swords. This goes for every jobs, but even more than usual for Blue Mage.


3. Please please ask questions. Ask them again, and again and with different people.

4. Prioritize. Focus on getting spells and support jobs before equipment. Knowing the mechanics of your options is more important than getting equipment.

5. Lastly, and most importantly, please have fun. Do not be afraid to experiment and try things which we don't say. The more fun you have, the more you'll want to play, the stronger you'll become.

These three things could be the foundation of Final Fantasy XI in general, honestly. This is really good advice.

[Xantavia]

Is there a level where blu stops being broken? At 16 blu is nuts and I am just wondering if and how much it slows down.
Just wait until Bludgeon at 18, then it feels extremely broken. But blu has always had its mp pool as a limiting factor. I found that 79 is when it started feeling broken again. Access to battery charge for self-refresh is a huge game changer. To go from 2/tic (trait and vermy) to 4/tic (real armor in place of cloak) let me DD a bit harder without as much downtime.

For the Empy armor guys, I think most of those were the bandwagon blu's who took the job up just to proc whore abyssea.

[Tashan]

And voidwatch :/

BLU/BLM makes me said ._.

[Rochetm]

And voidwatch :/

BLU/BLM makes me said ._.

I don't understand this...

I noticed that the 99 blus on my server tend to be /nin, /rdm and /dnc with a couple going /sch and /blm.

EDIT: If I stick with Blu I will probably be in a duo with Dnc. My guess is aspir samba would be great for Blu if we happen to be fighting something with MP. I am still not sure what my focus will be yet. I want to focus on one job to level cap and I am down to Blu or Nin.

[Oricimaru]

Well, Aspir Samba can save you in a pinch, Although very rarely. i found from personal testing that /rdm and /sch will save me more than /dnc would for a few reasons. /rdm gives Fast cast so you do not have to use points to set it which will give you greater offensive or defenseive abl.. /sch is a good sub for sublimaton and other effects that the Stratagems will give.

/dnc on the other hand will give you very little besides a cure/erase with tp and a dual-wield trait (which we get though setting spells now). Hope this helps u out

Oricimaru

[Neisan_Quetz]

Fast Cast isn't really worth setting on Blu, especially not since at least on live servers, it's only 5% Fast Cast with 2 spells set. Not sure if that really is a bug, or if SE is doing it intentionally.

[Tashan]

/BLM offer's very little for a Blue Mage. Seeing a person go /BLM to Voidwatch usually suugests they

A) Are only /BLM for Warp 1 and Warp 2. >.>
B) Don't know what the fuck they're doing. >.>
C) Their Blue Magic Skill is so low they need Elemental Seal to land procs.

[Chiibi]

My best friend is levelling BLU atm and is absolutely loving it. I'm really amazed with her enthusiasm to want to play the job well and seeing her grow is practically the only reason I log in.

I'm STILL going to make you finish my alts lb10 quest. (Thanks for making me blush though =P)

[Trisscar]

There's much better gear. People who do not swap gear on BLU are, quite frankly, imbeciles. Do not be one of them. Examples of gear sets may be found on my FFXIAH page (http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Valefor/Prothescar#item-sets). Mavi head, body, and legs are acceptable pieces for TP until you acquire the harder to get pieces in those sets. Aim for the big hitters of DD stats for your TP set, focusing on DEX, Double Attack, Triple Attack, Accuracy, Attack, and Critical Hit Rate. The rest should be self explanatory and you should be able to draw reasonable conclusions as to what would be good in what slot based on my sets.


I had a look at your sets and this is where I must quote myself: Being elite is worse than being an outright noob.

Do not have unrealistic about what to learn or what to gear Mr OP. Pace yourself and get what gear you can reasonably achieve. If you don't have uber gear to macro into than don't feel embarrassed, and the rest will work out just fine.

Proto, good going on your gear. I hope someday to have gear even half as good someday.

[Tashan]

I had a look at your sets and this is where I must quote myself: Being elite is worse than being an outright noob.

Do not have unrealistic about what to learn or what to gear Mr OP. Pace yourself and get what gear you can reasonably achieve. If you don't have uber gear to macro into than don't feel embarrassed, and the rest will work out just fine.

Proto, good going on your gear. I hope someday to have gear even half as good someday.

Seconded.

It's not about having the best gear. It's just about knowing how to use what you have.

[Trisscar]

Now, I solo'd BLU to 75 way back when and farmed spells about every ten levels. This was ideal for me, but probably not for you, but here's some solid advice: Target as many spells you're missing in one area as is possible, know what exact monsters teach what spells and where and under what conditions they use them if any. BLU, more than any other job in the game, is all about power from knowledge.

[Prothscar]

I provided easier to acquire pieces in the post as well, and specifically mentioned that the gear sets are models not ultimatums.

[Trisscar]

I provided easier to acquire pieces in the post as well, and specifically mentioned that the gear sets are models not ultimatums.

"People who do not gear swap are imbeciles" sound familiar to you? Because you are the one who said it. That is an ultimatum any way you look at it and one that only an elitist would make. I've recently acquired some macro sets (after spending a week of sleepless days and nights pushing for it) for CDC, my attitude is "Gear swap is ideal, not a mandate".

[Trisscar]

Now Mr OP, what do I mean by 'be reasonable in gear'? Let's take a look at Prothscar's Ocelomoth Headpiece +1:


DEF:32 DEX+13 AGI+13 Haste+7% Adds "Regen" effect Set: "Triple Attack"+3%
It's worth around 5 million gil. Now let us compare it to it's NQ version, worth around 1 million gil:

DEF:31 DEX+12 AGI+12 Haste+6% Adds "Regen" effect Set: "Triple Attack"+3%
As you can clearly see the difference between the two isn't very significant and extra +1 agi, dex & def, and an extra +1% haste isn't going to make a huge impact on your life and even without breaking out a calculator you can see the drastic price increase simply isn't warranted and since there is this apparently unknown thing called caps that limits just how much the stats can effect your performance the HQ simply isn't worth getting. Period.

Therefor the HQ can be safely disregarded as 'reasonable gear'.

[Prothscar]

"People who do not gear swap are imbeciles" sound familiar to you? Because you are the one who said it. That is an ultimatum any way you look at it and one that only an elitist would make. I've recently acquired some macro sets (after spending a week of sleepless days and nights pushing for it) for CDC, my attitude is "Gear swap is ideal, not a mandate".

Gear swapping isn't elitist, that's how you play the job and the game. The magnitude of the gear being swapped is based upon the player's current place in the game. If you're TPing, WSing, casting all of your spells, and taking damage in one set of gear, you are doing it wrong. That's by 97% of the playerbase's definition at least, not only us nazi elitists. There's no excuse besides laziness for it as it takes all but an hour to write sufficient macros to swap gear properly.

[Afania]

I had a look at your sets and this is where I must quote myself: Being elite is worse than being an outright noob.

Do not have unrealistic about what to learn or what to gear Mr OP. Pace yourself and get what gear you can reasonably achieve. If you don't have uber gear to macro into than don't feel embarrassed, and the rest will work out just fine.

Proto, good going on your gear. I hope someday to have gear even half as good someday.

Yes, because it's easy to label others as elitists when they give suggestions to increase performance.


Now Mr OP, what do I mean by 'be reasonable in gear'? Let's take a look at Prothscar's Ocelomoth Headpiece +1:


It's worth around 5 million gil. Now let us compare it to it's NQ version, worth around 1 million gil:

As you can clearly see the difference between the two isn't very significant and extra +1 agi, dex & def, and an extra +1% haste isn't going to make a huge impact on your life and even without breaking out a calculator you can see the drastic price increase simply isn't warranted and since there is this apparently unknown thing called caps that limits just how much the stats can effect your performance the HQ simply isn't worth getting. Period.

Therefor the HQ can be safely disregarded as 'reasonable gear'.

Whether it's reasonable or not it's still completely depending on your POV. If you think NQ is good enough, go for it. If you want best performance, do HQ. I don't see a problem to suggest HQ/more expensive items for those who wants to have better performance. Same for gear swap, if you think your performance is good without gear swap, go ahead, but there are going to be ppl disagree with you and refuse to pt with you, that's just the way it goes. Either accept that fact and don't pt with "elitists" or change the way you play, simple.

Since OP is asking about better gear/gear set, instead of "cheap and effective gear", it's fairly reasonable to list the better gears instead of the subpar ones. Of course if he can't obtain better gears, can just settle with 2nd best 3rd best etc while aiming for the best ones. Sure, it's not the end of the world to settle with gears that's not the best(every player in this game more or less use subpar gear on one of their job anyways), but there's really no need to butthurt when someone else mentioning gear swap and listing hard to obtain gears.

[Trisscar]

Yes, because it's easy to label others as elitists when they give suggestions to increase performance.
Giving suggestions is one thing, calling them an outright noob for not swapping is a different thing entirely.

Now you look at someone who's not swapping gear and telling them they're doing it wrong than you yourself are 'doing it wrong' in your approach. Like for example, up to a weak ago I didn't swap into ws gear because it simply didn't exist for me. Up to that point I simply ws in my TP geap (at the time of this posting Homam Hand & feet, Mavi head, legs & body +2 plus the same accessories as Prothscar) and got some respectable numbers. My numbers are better now (and I am still missing a few pieces) but I'm not going to start shouting on non-swappers "You're doing it wrong!" unless it's readily apparent they're not even attempting to do more with less.

See the difference?



Whether it's reasonable or not it's still completely depending on your POV. If you think NQ is good enough, go for it. If you want best performance, do HQ. I don't see a problem to suggest HQ/more expensive items for those who wants to have better performance.
Not taking into account the cap factor, CDC has a 60% DEX modifier. That means that if you hit CDC and it would do 1000 dmg by itself, you're doing 1600 dmg due to that 1 DEX. That's a respectable increase in dmg, I'll admit but considering such things like the massive amounts of HP that LWNM possess that practically require squeezing every dmg point out it's a drop in the bucket and really not worth it.


Same for gear swap, if you think your performance is good without gear swap, go ahead, but there are going to be ppl disagree with you and refuse to pt with you, that's just the way it goes. Either accept that fact and don't pt with "elitists" or change the way you play, simple.
For the most part the change to gear swap hasn't changed the way I play or how effective I am at playing (neither do I forget that I'm playing a game) and elitists don't bother me any.

[Prothscar]

Nothing that you just posted is remotely close to correct.

[Tashan]

"People who do not gear swap are imbeciles" sound familiar to you?

Lol don't take this so seriously Trisscar. Pro may be a hard hitter, but he is direct and honest.

[Trisscar]

Nothing that you just posted is remotely close to correct.

I see. And since you didn't address any of my points or provide evidence proving me wrong I guess that means you're automatically right? Only in your dreams.

[Neisan_Quetz]

There was nothing to address. Nothing you posted was correct. Someone weaponskilling in TP gear is 'doing it wrong', and should be told they can improve their performance with simple usage of macros. If they refuse to listen then they are ignorant.

Everything you wrote in the second paragraph shows a complete lack of understanding damage calculations.

The third statement (and end of second statement) is inaccurate and shows you're eyeballing.

[Prothscar]

I see. And since you didn't address any of my points or provide evidence proving me wrong I guess that means you're automatically right? Only in your dreams.

I was hoping to avoid it since you seem the sensitive type, but since you want it so bad...


Giving suggestions is one thing, calling them an outright noob for not swapping is a different thing entirely.


No, they're a noob for not swapping gear. As are you. Get over it and improve yourself.





Now you look at someone who's not swapping gear and telling them they're doing it wrong than you yourself are 'doing it wrong' in your approach. Like for example, up to a weak ago I didn't swap into ws gear because it simply didn't exist for me.


That's your own fault. CDC gear off of the AH is adequate until you obtain more advanced piece and costs under 750k for all of it if that.





Up to that point I simply ws in my TP geap (at the time of this posting Homam Hand & feet, Mavi head, legs & body +2 plus the same accessories as Prothscar) and got some respectable numbers. My numbers are better now (and I am still missing a few pieces) but I'm not going to start shouting on non-swappers "You're doing it wrong!" unless it's readily apparent they're not even attempting to do more with less.

See the difference?


"Respectable numbers"? Let's see exactly what numbers you were able to hit in that gear. We'll assume an average VWNM or so and that you're subbing NIN like you recently suggested that you do. I don't know what level Almace you have, but we'll assume 90. Since it's a VWNM, we'll assume Braver's Drink, Champion's Tonic and Stalwart's Tonic.

P: Lv99, 117STR, 120DEX, 822ATK, 13%DA, 3%TA, 55% Critical Hit Rate
M: Lv110, 115VIT, 500DEF

D: 61
fSTR: 6
WSC: 68
fTP: 5.6222
Avg pDIF: 1.62599342135

Base: 758
Final Avg: 1293






P: Lv99, 141STR, 162DEX, 916ATK, 17%DA, 6%TA, 65% Critical Hit Rate
M: Lv110, 115VIT, 500DEF

D: 61
fSTR: 7
WSC: 82
fTP: 5.8096
Avg pDIF: 1.9053407893

Base: 871
Final Avg: 1742



Math:
(61 + 6 + 68) * 5.6222 = 758
758 * 1.62599342135 = 1232
1232 * 1.025 = 1262
1262 * 1.025 = 1293



(61 + 7 + 82) * 5.8096 = 871
871 * 1.9053407893 = 1659
1659 * 1.025 = 1700
1700 * 1.025 = 1742


A difference of 449 damage on average between WSing in TP set and a proper WS set, maximums show even greater levels of difference. 729 maximum damage difference.





Not taking into account the cap factor, CDC has a 60% DEX modifier.


You have no idea what you're talking about.





That means that if you hit CDC and it would do 1000 dmg by itself, you're doing 1600 dmg due to that 1 DEX. That's a respectable increase in dmg, I'll admit but considering such things like the massive amounts of HP that LWNM possess that practically require squeezing every dmg point out it's a drop in the bucket and really not worth it.


You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.




For the most part the change to gear swap hasn't changed the way I play or how effective I am at playing (neither do I forget that I'm playing a game) and elitists don't bother me any.

It has affected how effective you are at playing by a considerable amount, and on more than just Chant du Cygne. Every action you do is dwarfed by doing those actions in TP gear. Expect to be bitched at for playing so grossly inadequately, as it is a major difference in performance.

[Kitkat]

Not taking into account the cap factor, CDC has a 60% DEX modifier. That means that if you hit CDC and it would do 1000 dmg by itself, you're doing 1600 dmg due to that 1 DEX.

Someones math is defunk since you've somehow come to this conclusion. You're making it sound like the dex modifier it s 600% instead of 60% by this comment alone. I suggest you take a look at BGwiki and learn how to math out projected WS damage. Either that or learn how to do the equation right....cause I can't figure how you even came up with this without putting the modifier in the wrong spot of the equation.

On the stance of "swapping is for elitest" I don't know how you come to this conclusion based on the fact every job in the game has a need to swap for one reason or another. Every job I play blinks in an out from gear swaps based on what I'm doing be it TP, WS, different WS, spell casting, magical spell casting. Side by side to a blu who does minimal swaps (or none at all) my damage easily surpasses theirs for the simple fact gear to increase the potential was put on.

It isn't elitist, it is proven fact that performance increases as you gear for what it is you are doing. You use the analogy that it is like squeezing a drop of damage out, but fail to see that the more drops you squeeze out the bigger the damaging puddle becomes. When you don't gear for it, it is like trying to squeeze water out of a mildly damp cloth compared to squeezing water out of a soaked cloth. If you are expecting a few minor swaps to increase your potential 100 fold then you are looking at it wrong. A better outlook is 5, 10, 15% increase as you gear more appropriate to what you are doing.

[Trisscar]

There was nothing to address. Nothing you posted was correct. Someone weaponskilling in TP gear is 'doing it wrong', and should be told they can improve their performance with simple usage of macros. If they refuse to listen then they are ignorant.
"They're doing it wrong" is still an elitist statement unless they're not even making the attempt to do what they can with what they have. What part of that do you have problem understanding?


Everything you wrote in the second paragraph shows a complete lack of understanding damage calculations.
You say this than fail to provide the equations to help me improve my math on it? You fail.


The third statement (and end of second statement) is inaccurate and shows you're eyeballing.
Only thing I can do, since I play on Xbox and don't have all those nifty tools computer players have. But I do have a calculator and am capable of using it correctly assuming I have the right equations at my disposal (which you haven't supplied btw).

But hey let's have some fun with mathematical similes to show you just how wrong you are:
You are in a Chocobo (in this simile a fictional maker of cars) car dealership and are looking to buy a brand new Chocobo. There are two brand new Chocobo, a Chocobo NQ model and a Chocobo HQ model.

Now the two cars are visually identical in every aspect down to the coat of jet black paint. However the Chocobo NQ is 1 million gil and the Chocobo HQ is 20% more at 5 million gil. So what is the difference? The Chocobo gets 1 more MPH, 1 more DEF and 1% more MPG. In your opinion do you think such a very minor performance difference is worth a 20% increase in price?

[Lynchilles]

Not taking into account the cap factor, CDC has a 60% DEX modifier. That means that if you hit CDC and it would do 1000 dmg by itself, you're doing 1600 dmg due to that 1 DEX. That's a respectable increase in dmg, I'll admit but considering such things like the massive amounts of HP that LWNM possess that practically require squeezing every dmg point out it's a drop in the bucket and really not worth it.

This right here just proves to me (and I am confident, many others who will read it) that you have no idea what you are talking about. I would suggest tucking your tail between your legs and running away very quickly. In short: you should stop posting.

[cidbahamut]

"They're doing it wrong" is still an elitist statement unless they're not even making the attempt to do what they can with what they have. What part of that do you have problem understanding?

The only scenario in which no gear swapping would constitute "doing what they can with what they have" is one in which they only have 16 pieces of gear at their disposal, in which case they're not trying in the first place, and are therefor "doing it wrong" anyway.




You say this than fail to provide the equations to help me improve my math on it? You fail.

Google is hard? Your refusal to take steps to educate yourself speaks volumes about you as a player, but here, have a link and become better acquainted with how completely and totally ignorant you are regarding the math behind the game: http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Weapon_Skill_Damage

[Trisscar]

I was hoping to avoid it since you seem the sensitive type, but since you want it so bad...
Heh, I've been called insensitive so much but really thanks from sparing my sensitives so far.




No, they're a noob for not swapping gear. As are you. Get over it and improve yourself. That depends, is their full time complete rubbish when better gear is easily available? Than yeah, I'd agree they are noobs. Is their gear the result of blood sweat and tears? Than you are worse than a noob for calling them a noob. Get over yourself already.






CDC gear off of the AH is adequate until you obtain more advanced piece and costs under 750k for all of it if that. Depends on your definitions of adequate and advanced. Your head piece is prime example. If you bought it recently than you got ripped off for 20% more than what it's worth for very minor improvements in areas you probably didn't need them in to begin with. But since you're an elitist (remember what I say about those?) you probably paid for it as soon as it came out in which case you have my condolences for getting jacked.







Final Avg: 1293
Final Avg: 1742

A 74% increase of damage, and I doubt the mob even noticed it (with HP well in excess of 10,000). Oh yeah, let's not forget the fact that Squaresuck likes to stack the deck and you'll be lucky to get the base damage constantly, never mind the high damage like 4,000 damage I have sometimes (but rarely) seen on CDC (even before I spent a week of grueling labor over what little time I had on spring break getting what ws swap gear I have but still need to work on).


It has affected how effective you are at playing by a considerable amount, and on more than just Chant du Cygne. Every action you do is dwarfed by doing those actions in TP gear. Expect to be bitched at for playing so grossly inadequately, as it is a major difference in performance.

I'll be remembering that next time I'm stun tanking Brieus and fail to take even take a single point of damage. Which I have done. Before I even gotten the TP gear. You're argument is invalid.

[Prothscar]

Just stop posting, you're making yourself look dumber and dumber each time you decide to speak your mind.

If you honestly believe what you're saying, then I genuinely pity you. Doing more damage isn't effective because a monster has more HP? Do you realize how contradictory that is? Do you know what an average is? Are you a squirrel?

[Trisscar]

Just stop posting, you're making yourself look dumber and dumber each time you decide to speak your mind.

If you honestly believe what you're saying, then I genuinely pity you.

Address the argument, not the arguer.


Doing more damage isn't effective because a monster has more HP?
Isn't effective because the damage isn't consistent, or more pronounced than what it is.

The average (if you're lucky to get it) only does about 3.4% of damage on a LW mob with 50,000 HP. Which isn't far removed from the damage from ws in TP gear (3%, rounded up). Oh yeah, color me impressed. It gets worse from there as many LW mobs have in excess of 100,000 HP.


Do you realize how contradictory that is? Do you know what an average is? Are you a squirrel?
Trisscar (http://redwall.wikia.com/wiki/Trisscar_Swordmaid). :cool:

[Lynchilles]

A 74% increase of damage, and I doubt the mob even noticed it (with HP well in excess of 10,000). Oh yeah, let's not forget the fact that Squaresuck likes to stack the deck and you'll be lucky to get the base damage constantly, never mind the high damage like 4,000 damage I have sometimes (but rarely) seen on CDC (even before I spent a week of grueling labor over what little time I had on spring break getting what ws swap gear I have but still need to work on).


So you only Weapon Skill once per fight on Voidwatch mobs, Legion mobs, HNMs, etc.

Got it.

[Neisan_Quetz]

ITT Briareus is hard and requires a ton of skill.

[Prothscar]

Address the argument, not the arguer.

The argument is retarded. I've already countered your claims that make 0 logical sense and are based in 0 fact with actual mathematics and game mechanics that have been known for years now.

[Tamoa]

Several times have I tried to make a post replying to this jibberish, but I've failed every time. I don't even know where to start.

I'll say one thing though: if your examples and eyeballed/manually calculated numbers are all from abyssea, they mean nothing. There's more to this game than abyssea, atmas and cruor buffs, just in case you didn't know.

[Prothscar]

The average (if you're lucky to get it) only does about 3.4% of damage on a LW mob with 50,000 HP.


Ok so you don't know what an average is or how basic probability works. Good to know. You also don't appear to have common sense enough to realize that more damage is more beneficial than less damage... I don't know how that's possible.

[Trisscar]

So you only Weapon Skill once per fight on Voidwatch mobs, Legion mobs, HNMs, etc.

Got it.

Haven't tackled Legion yet (the demand isn't there on the server) and I used to not engage LW mobs at all (I got trapped into the proc only mind set), and I can't think of the last time I even seen an HNM.

Do I ws, sc or spam spells? The depends on on the demands of the moment. You know, this little known thing called listening to you leader? Apparently that's important. As opposed to simply doing what ever you want.

[cidbahamut]

That depends, is their full time complete rubbish when better gear is easily available? Than yeah, I'd agree they are noobs. Is their gear the result of blood sweat and tears? Than you are worse than a noob for calling them a noob. Get over yourself already.


Full-timing gear leads to performance being complete rubbish, so yes not swapping gear when you've been made aware of the benefits it offers makes you a noob.

There are no gear sets that are acceptable to full-time on any job.

[Trisscar]

Ok so you don't know what an average is or how basic probability works. Good to know.
As a matter of fact I do. If something is an average you should expect to see it 50% of the time or more. In a rational world. But apparently you've forgotten one minor detail: Squaresuck made the game and they like to stack the deck.

[Prothscar]

...thanks for once again proving that you don't know what an average is. You don't seem to realize that I incorporated all of the randomizers as averages as well, meaning that is the average damage after randomization. This further cements the fact that you are talking out of your ass.... not like we needed more evidence.

[cidbahamut]

As a matter of fact I do. If something is an average you should expect to see it 50% of the time or more.

Oh dear...

[Neisan_Quetz]

As a matter of fact I do. If something is an average you should expect to see it 50% of the time or more. In a rational world. But apparently you've forgotten one minor detail: Squaresuck made the game and they like to stack the deck.

Please stop posting.

[Eurell]

Noones commented on the percents yet? 5,000,000 is only a 20% increase from 1,000,000? Come on guys.

[Prothscar]

Missed that tbh, there's so much idiocy for me to process that my brain is blocking some of it out.

[Divinius]

Dear Trisscar,

I'd like to give you some heartfelt advice. You should really consider the possibility that you might be mistaken about a few things. I've seen you state a number of points, including inaccurate mathematical arguments, as though they were true and correct. And while certain parts of the argument you are attempting to defend are indeed matters of personal opinion (and thereby up for debate, even if you are in the minority), defending them adequately is virtually impossible if you are attempting to back up your arguments with "facts" that are mathematically and logically false.

You aren't helping your cause at this point. You may want to step back, calm down, actually accept that your understanding of things might be a bit off, and ask people to explain them to you. Once you have your numbers right (and your general understanding of math has improved) then from there, you can choose to continue to argue your personal opinion, or perhaps (*gasp*) even find you may want to modify it in light of your new found information.

In either case, continuing to staunchly defend your opinion, with examples that clearly indicate that you severely lack the understanding of how math works, is just making you seem ignorant. You don't really want people to think you are ignorant, do you? Of course not.

[Trisscar]

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Weapon_Skill_Damage

Seen that a long time ago, but hey let's take a good look at it and see just why it's wrong:


Physical WS Damage Calculation:
WD: Base damage of your WS
D: Base damage of your weapon (e.g., Espadon = 43)
fSTR: difference between your STR and target's VIT. This can be capped (see below).
WSC: Secondary attribute like STR_30 (30% of your STR).
fTP: Multiplier (Please see chart below).
PDIF: (your ATK/target’s DEF) Caps at 2.4 for melee attacks and 3 for ranged attacks.

Let's focus on fSTR, the difference between your STR and your target's (as in the mob's) VIT. Let me clarify just why this particular part of the equation is flat out wrong: Show me the link where (say) Akvan's VIT is shown with any certainty. Can't do that? How about the one with the book's (that which I cheerfully call Necronomicon) VIT? Can't do that either? How about Voidwrought's? Any of the LWNM? Any mob at all? Can't do that?

Want to know why? Because they're not known. The entire equation (while well thought out) has an unknowable unknown, thus it's unreliable. Which also applies to the part with pDIF, because since all other attributes can only be guestimated on the equation is worthless.

[Trisscar]

Dear Trisscar,

I'd like to give you some heartfelt advice. You should really consider the possibility that you might be mistaken about a few things. I've seen you state a number of points, including inaccurate mathematical arguments, as though they were true and correct. And while certain parts of the argument you are attempting to defend are indeed matters of personal opinion (and thereby up for debate, even if you are in the minority), defending them adequately is virtually impossible if you are attempting to back up your arguments with "facts" that are mathematically and logically false.

You aren't helping your cause at this point. You may want to step back, calm down, actually accept that your understanding of things might be a bit off, and ask people to explain them to you. Once you have your numbers right (and your general understanding of math has improved) then from there, you can choose to continue to argue your personal opinion, or perhaps (*gasp*) even find you may want to modify it in light of your new found information.

In either case, continuing to staunchly defend your opinion, with examples that clearly indicate that you severely lack the understanding of how math works, is just making you seem ignorant. You don't really want people to think you are ignorant, do you? Of course not.

It would help if I had information that isn't five years out of date and based upon unknowns like Akvan's VIT and DEF. If you have some accurate equations I'll be happy to look at them.

[Eurell]

Even if you were right in that post (you're not), you're ignoring that your previous calculations are waaaaaay off. For instance, you said 1 dex makes a 600 dmg difference. That is insane. And if that was somehow true, it would prove the point that you need to gear swap for WSs to not suck (you add more than 1 dex in your ws gear).

You're also ignoring the fact that you don't understand %s at all. Everytime you bring them up, you do them ass backwards.


It's ok to be wrong about something, I've been wrong plenty. When it happens, just say oops and move on.

[Trisscar]

Noones commented on the percents yet? 5,000,000 is only a 20% increase from 1,000,000? Come on guys.

The math (from my calculator): 1,000,000*100/5,000,000=20% (and in reverse) 1,000,000*100/20=5,000,000

This isn't anything but simple proportion.

But hey, if you want to make the case that people waste even more on very minor improvements? Be my guest.

[Prothscar]

You realize that relatively close estimations of VWNM stats based on known stats are accurate enough to be used for maths right? That you can get a completely accurate value for mob VIT/DEF with enough tests? Can your brain grasp this concept? You assuming to condemn BG Wiki for being wrong in its equations is absolutely laughable.

When the first hole gets too deep, try to dig another to draw attention from the first.

[Trisscar]

Even if you were right in that post (you're not), you're ignoring that your previous calculations are waaaaaay off. For instance, you said 1 dex makes a 600 dmg difference. That is insane. And if that was somehow true, it would prove the point that you need to gear swap for WSs to not suck (you add more than 1 dex in your ws gear).
I said that DEX (as far as CDC is concerned) DEX modifier is 60%, which I take to mean that for every point of damage there's an additional .60 damage for every point of DEX. Do you have a reliable equation?


You're also ignoring the fact that you don't understand %s at all. Everytime you bring them up, you do them ass backwards.
That may be so, I never did like working with percents.



It's ok to be wrong about something, I've been wrong plenty. When it happens, just say oops and move on.
I am wrong, most likely. I'm probably working with the wrong numbers and equations, but there doesn't seem to be anything reliable out there.

[Prothscar]

I said that DEX (as far as CDC is concerned) DEX modifier is 60%, which I take to mean that for every point of damage there's an additional .60 damage for every point of DEX. Do you have a reliable equation?


Do you have a brain?

At 99, WSC = floor(floor((a x a%) + (b x b%)) x 0.85) this has been known for five years or more. Mathematical functions do not change that quickly, or ever.

[Nala]

WTH did i just read... dear god...

[cidbahamut]

WTH did i just read... dear god...

A steadfast denial of mathematics.

[Trisscar]

You realize that relatively close estimations of VWNM stats based on known stats are accurate enough to be used for maths right? That you can get a completely accurate value for mob VIT/DEF with enough tests? Can your brain grasp this concept? You assuming to condemn BG Wiki for being wrong in its equations is absolutely laughable.
Where on this (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Akvan) page do you see Akvan's VIT/DEF stated in any aspect? Or any other stats for that mater? It's HP/MP? Anything? Oh, yeah. Those aren't known.


When the first hole gets too deep, try to dig another to draw attention from the first.
Beats keep on digging in the first hole. By the way have you heard that first rule about holes? When you're in one... stop digging Prothscar.

[Nala]

yeah... just my brain's having a hard time processing the whole of this thread is all... anyways back to lurking for me.

or not, LOL he needs to keep digging? quit while your in last place, they're about to lap you.

[Prothscar]

You're attempting to discredit information that's been concrete and accepted by 99% of the population for five years+, you're the one in the position of requiring proof.

Unlike you, I have an IQ higher than that of a goldfish, and thus can facilitate some level of certainty over an average VWNM's stats. Nowhere in my calculations did I mention Akvan. You're grasping at straws and attempting to materialize an argument that doesn't even exist because you're wrong and cannot accept it. Just shut the fuck up so we can all save some brain cells.

[Tamoa]

Even if you don't like working with percents, how can you possibly make going from 1,000,000 to 5,000,000 out to be a 20% increase?

[Prothscar]

Changing the fundamental laws of reality is easy when you have to do it to attempt at winning an argument.

[Eurell]

It's impossible to add how much dmg people did to a mob to figure out it's HP guys.

[Insaniac]

1 + x = 3

x = Impossible to know.

[Yugl]

1 + x = 3

x = Impossible to know.

/thread

Fucking lol.

[Trisscar]

You're attempting to discredit information that's been concrete and accepted by 99% of the population for five years+,
Argument ad populatum (spelling). And this would be the same population that pushed myths about moon phases and synth/farm results for around 4 years before they were ultimately dispelled by Squaresuck?


you're the one in the position of requiring proof.
Yes I do require proof, which you must provide because the burden of proof requires that someone making a positive claim (you making the claim that stats or a close estimate exists, for example) must provide evidence. I trust you'll be doing that sometime soon?


*Snip unrelated personal attack* and thus can facilitate some level of certainty over an average VWNM's stats. Nowhere in my calculations did I mention Akvan.
We're talking LWNM, so of course a LWNM name will pop up. What did you think I was going to bring up, Charby? In any case if you know where these stats are the burden of proof is on you to provide the, because without any evidence to contrary the only reasonable conclusion I can draw is that they don't exist and the equation you flaunt is inaccurate at the least.


At 99, WSC = floor(floor((a x a%) + (b x b%)) x 0.85)
Thank you for the equation, but what does floor mean? A? B?

[Neisan_Quetz]

The game doesn't work by the math, heard it here first.

Insaniac's post pretty much sums up your argument about Vit.

[Prothscar]

Holy fucking lol

Feel free to provide me with evidence of how your idea of an average works, how math that we've been using for years is wrong, and how you get 1,000,000 -> 5,000,000 as legitimately being a 20% increase.

Until then, I think we're done here. Congrats on becoming the latest laughing stock of XI.

[Tamoa]

We're talking LWNM, so of course a LWNM name will pop up. What did you think I was going to bring up, Charby? In any case if you know where these stats are the burden of proof is on you to provide the, because without any evidence to contrary the only reasonable conclusion I can draw is that they don't exist and the equation you flaunt is inaccurate at the least.


Even if that were true, it's nowhere near as inaccurate and outright WRONG as the maths and percentages you have presented for us in this thread.

[cidbahamut]

1 + x = 3

x = Impossible to know.

Someone give this man an internet.

[Yugl]

Argument ad populatum (spelling). And this would be the same population that pushed myths about moon phases and synth/farm results for around 4 years before they were ultimately dispelled by Squaresuck?


Woah woah woah. You have the nerve to get on SE's own website and bash them?! I'll have you know you're the most elitist one out of the bunch. SE is a great company. SE does lots of good stuff. I enjoy their product. In particular, their assortment of mythic weapons. I especially like that Ryunohige they made.

[Insaniac]

Please show me the math that proves that Ryunohiges exist.

[Prothscar]

Ryunohige formula: (30000*100/3 + 50/50) - 150000/100000 = 15%.

[Nala]

so because we can prove the equation works vs monsters with known stats, the fact there are monsters without known stats or at least lack of free information of known stats the equation is now inaccurate... christ do you listen to yourself before posting?

also given known factors you can easily derive a mob's stats, probably one of the better ways is ranged attacks considering their consistency.

[Insaniac]

Ryunohige formula: (30000*100/3 + 50/50) - 150000/100000 = 15%. What is this "+" symbol you keep using?

[cidbahamut]

Please show me the math that proves that Ryunohiges exist.

I think you're expected to prove that math exists first.

[Prothscar]

What is this "+" symbol you keep using?

"Less than"

[Trisscar]

Please excuse me a moment while I locate someone who can explain what floor means in that equation. As well as help me find the information I require about the LWNM.

[Nala]

floor is basically rounding down to the nearest whole number, in other words truncating the decimals. floor(1.99) =1

ps: google too hard for you?

[Kitkat]

I find it especially amusing how Trisscar keeps bringing up percentage values that are....just wow. 1293~>1729=74% increase! huh?!? 1mil~>5mil is 20% increase! wut?!?! Best part.....What is floor? What is a? b? Oh god, I can't breath...going to pass out from laughing too much.

On a serious note, I have to ask this: What is your highest completed education level that you are arguing against known mathematical equation and variable usage? Honestly, I thought they started teaching this sort of thing as early as 7th or 8th grade. Unless...of course...you were one of those people that said "I'll never need this in life." I would hope you know what PEMDAS (http://www.mathsisfun.com/operation-order-pemdas.html) means...it'll help you with those long equation strings so you do the proper steps in correct order.

All of your questions about how the equation works, what Floor (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Floor) is, what represents 'a' and 'b' (pst, tells you at WSC (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/WSC)) is explained through various source links (something BGwiki requires for all articles to remain published, similar to news reports, biographies, scientific theory....). It tells you in divided articles how to work the different functions of the equation into the final equation to gain projected WS damage.

And for the record 20% of 1mil is 200,000 (thus a 20% mark up is 1.2mil, not 5mil). 5mil is an ~500% mark up, and honestly not something new with NQ to HQ price difference. I can remember when the difference between a NQ and HQ was about 10-15mil, but the economy was inflated at the time also. The difference between 1293 and 1729 is actually ~25% increase rounded (you confused 1293/1729=.7478..... when that only shows that 1293 is ~75% of 1729). The flaws in your math speak louder than anything else you say trying to disprove that swapping gear increases overall damage output and performance.

Do yourself a favor and stop. Take a deep breath, drink some tea, and read over the information people are linking you to. When you just glance over it then blow steam in a slew of mathematically incorrect information you only harm yourself.

PS: Before you can attack it, ~ means approximately by the context I am using it in.

PPS: Also, if I thought it would help I would link you to studio gobli, but given the lack of patience in reading articles and source material via prior bgwiki links I hardly doubt you'll have the patience to look over a JP based web site to gather the necessary information to meet your burden of proof. Not to mention there has been various discussions on the BG forums about projected VWNM stats based off collected data. Burden of Proof is not something you toss out just because you don't have the patience to look it up yourself, it is something you use when there is no information found via available search methods to prove a statement.

[Afania]

Depends on your definitions of adequate and advanced. Your head piece is prime example. If you bought it recently than you got ripped off for 20% more than what it's worth for very minor improvements in areas you probably didn't need them in to begin with. But since you're an elitist (remember what I say about those?) you probably paid for it as soon as it came out in which case you have my condolences for getting jacked.



For the entire thread you're calling others elitists because they're calling others noob for not gear swapping, but in the end you're really no different....you call others getting ripped off and getting jacked by buying HQ, for me it sounds like everyone that buys HQ are dumb ppl making wrong choice when you said that.

So what's the difference, between you and "elitists"? Calling ppl not swapping "doing wrong", and calling ppl buying HQ "getting ripped off", it's really all the same. It is "elitists"'s choice to pay for the HQ, and it's their 13$ a month, they have all the right to do so.

As I previously mentioned, if you believe NQ/not swapping gear can get your job done, go play with none elitist ppl with same POV. If you just love HQ gears and that small amount of difference it made, and thinks everyone not swapping gears are noobs, then don't play with noobs. Buying HQ/NQ, swapping gear or not swapping, in the end it's all your own choice. The difference between those who choose not to gear swap and those who choose to get ripped off for HQ is, those who choose not to gear swap is going to affect other pt member due to lower performance, thus not everyone will be happy with that(that's why many players call others doing it wrong if they don't swap gears). Those who choose to pay over priced HQ are going to increase entire pt performance by spending extra effort, that's why entire thread is against you.



It's just a game, there's really no point to get butthurt over it. If you think not doing gear swap/using NQ isn't doing it wrong, then go play with ppl that accepts it, but I'm going to tell you, whether you like it or not, not everyone is happy if one person it pt is lowering pt performance, just like not everyone will be happy if another person calling ppl noob. That's just the way it goes.

Personally I wouldn't outright call ppl "noob" in their face if they don't gear swap because it's rude. If it's close friend I may tell them you doing wrong if I see someone not doing things properly, but I do that to help them increase performance, and I don't do that to strangers because some ppl have ego <-----------------------> this big and may felt offended. And it's certainly kinda annoying to be labeled as "elitist" when others are just trying to give suggestions to help increase other ppl's performance.

[wish12oz]

Yes I do require proof, which you must provide because the burden of proof requires that someone making a positive claim (you making the claim that stats or a close estimate exists, for example) must provide evidence. I trust you'll be doing that sometime soon?

A lot of mobs stats can be determined by different methods. Like the easiest of which is evasion. If you /check something and it says "low evasion," then remove accuracy until the "low evasion" goes away, you can determine what it's total evasion is from that. AGL is factored into evasion, to find this you can stack DEX and parse your crit rate until you hit the cap. Crit rate caps at 20% when your DEX is 50 points above the mobs AGL. Using these 2 methods you now know the mobs total evasion, and actual AGL, and you can use these numbers to determine it's evasion (Since AGL would be factored into it's total evasion you need to take that out of the equation).

Now that you know the mobs evasion, AGL and total evasion, you can then parse different amounts of accuracy until you hit 95% hit rate, which is the cap. So now you would have a weak mob, and know it's AGL, Evasion and how much accuracy you need to cap hit rate on it. You could then do these tests on lots of other mobs of different levels that you can /check, not NMs, and then devise the formula used to determine your hit rate vs a mobs evasion and AGL.

You can then use this knowledge of hit rate, and the formula you created for it, and apply it to something harder, like Akvan, that you don't know the stats of, and go parse a bunch of them with different levels of accuracy and that will tell you how much total evasion Akvan has. Then you can do the DEX test again til you cap crit rate to figure out it's AGL. This is how mob stats were determined, and how all the formulas that were not released by SE were determined. BTW, alot of the formulas for damage and different things were actually released by SE in Japanese publications and told to people in interviews and stuff, and said by DEVs on these forums. Like when they were talking about Gallants roll and the changes they wanted to make to it. They gave out the actual formula for how damage taken from mobs is calculated, and released Ig Alimas stats. And guess what, it's wasn't actually different from what players have been using for years.

Anyway, there's tests like this you can do to determine every stat a mob has. And just to check if they're accurate, you could do these tests on Ig Alima, and see if they come out correctly, since Ig's stats were posted by the DEV team on these forums not to long ago. After you figure out mob stats for a few different mobs, you could use those stats and your stats, and parse your damage against the mob, then change your STR and attack and parse some more, to figure out the equations for how damage is calculated. This is what people actually did, years ago, to figure this stuff out. People use these equations everyday to figure out what gear they should be using, and what their damage averages should be, and their hit rate and crit rate and tons of other stuff. If something was wrong to the point it mattered at all, people would of noticed years ago.

[Shadowsong]

I have to give credit where credit is due > Trisscar > Thank you so much for reviving the Official Forums thread on BG. This forum was turning into a wasteland of funny before this arrived.

[Shadowsong]

Any of the LWNM? Any mob at all? Can't do that?

If you are refusing game mechanics, can you at least use correct game TERMINOLOGY? wtf is LWNM

[Tashan]

Logwatch lol.

Also lol @ the threads tags.

[Shadowsong]

No, I REFUSE to be whooshed by such a person.....