Double attack vs haste

[Musahashi]

One thing worries me about monks recently, I've been seeing alot of monks with double attack+ gear in places where they could have haste+ gear instead, even on earrings and rings, isn't it better to have better STR than double attack?

There was a post on FFXIAH displaying a graph between the output of double attack gear vs. haste gear, If anyone could be bothered finding it and posting it here I think it would help alot of the new monks, and bandwagon monks see what they're missing out on.

Also, does anyone agree that double attack should be a monk job trait aswell as or instead of warrior? Too many times I've subbed DNC or NIN because I've been asked, and then felt like I should be attacking a whole lot more.

[Mirage]

Well if you've capped gear haste, DA/TA is where it's at.
DA and TA increases TP gain, str doesn't :>.

[Musahashi]

Monk doesn't gain anything from TA unless your subbing a job with an active TA job trait.

As for DA, I'm still uncertain, monk is built upon STR, it eats STR to make it what it is, and if I can get more damage per attack, I'd much rather do that as the mob has less chance to gain TP, unlike through more, less powerfull attacks from me.

Even with a decent subtle blow % on my monk, I'd still much rather kill the mob in less attacks than more.

[Evilvivi]

For TP, DA/TA is generally better than str, since in abyssea you probably overcap fstr from cruor buffs.
For WSs, most of the DA pieces that I can think of beat str+ gear in that same slot, except Twilight Belt.
As for haste, capping it is more important, I cant think of any piece where you would sacrifice haste for DA except Twilight Belt, in which there has already been a debate on how much that sux for MNK.

[Protey]

you're capped on STR, go with epona's, it's the best choice.

[Mojo]

You have some tremendous misconceptions about how STR, Double Attack, and Triple Attack work.

To begin with, you don't need any native Triple Attack trait to receive benefit from Triple Attack gear. Epona's Ring, for instance, will give you a 3% Triple Attack occurrence despite not having the trait to begin with. The same statement can be said for double attacks.

STR can help in two ways. First, 2 STR = 1 Attack. Most people understand this quite easily. The second is a bit more obscure, it's called fSTR. fSTR is a value calculated from the difference between your STR and the mobs VIT. The value is augmented onto the DMG from your weapon. It's a weird step function that only increases by one per 4-6 STR you add. A general rule of thumb is that with a high margin between your STR and the mobs VIT, then +4 STR = +1 DMG, which is often the case with MNK these days for a variety of reasons. However, fSTR also caps. The cap is 8 + weapon rank. Weapon rank, for hand to hand weapons, is (DMG+3)/9, rounded down, where DMG is the +DMG listed on your weapon. So for 90 Verethragna, for instance, the fSTR cap is 8+(35+3)/9 = 8+4.22 = 8+4 = 12. The fSTR cap will occur when you have (14 + 2x weapon rank)*2 more STR than the mobs VIT, so in my case 44 STR. Once you go beyond this point, then the only advantage to more STR on meleeing is due to the 2 STR = 1 Attack (which is somewhat of a pitiful bonus, to be honest.)

Full Tantra +2 feet/body/head/tathlum, Rajas Ring, Black Belt, (all of this is standard TP gear) red curry bun and merits yields STR+66. So any mob I'm fighting, as a hume MNK, will need at least 105 VIT in order for fSTR to become uncapped. This doesn't really occur anywhere outside of Abyssea except on a few HNM nobody fights (but even then I doubt this), and even if it does, it's not really a big deal (I'll explain why in a bit.) Inside of Abyssea, this never happens, because cruor buffs add between 30 and 70 STR on top of this.

Now, let's say that, for some reason you might encounter a situation where fSTR starts to become uncapped. The total DMG that's used for your melee attacks is this.

Total DMG = 3+0.11(h2h skill) + weapon DMG + fSTR. 90 MNK with 8 H2H merits, Faith Torque, and Tantra gets 391 H2H skill.

Total DMG = 3 + 0.11(391) + 35 + 12
Total DMG = 3 + 33.01 + 35 + 12
Total DMG = 3 + 33 + 35 + 12
Total DMG = 93

So losing 1 fSTR brings my melee DoT down by 1.08%. I understand that not everybody is going to have Verethagna and Faith/Tantra. So for those calculations, you could just use capped merits and Taurine Cesti.

Total DMG = 3 + 0.11(377) + 28 + 11
Total DMG = 3 + 41.47 + 28 + 11
Total DMG = 3 + 41 + 28 + 11
Total DMG = 83

Losing 1 fSTR equates to a 1.20% decrease in melee damage.

So in either of these cases, it's very small, and unlikely to occur anyways.

Double Attack/Triple Attack, on the other hand, will raise your DoT immensely. The marginal gains can be approximated by the following (for double attack.)

% increase = 100*(n)/(100 + d). n represents the double attack increase some piece of gear provides while d is the double attack you had before adding that gear. So, in the case of brutal earring on a MNK/WAR with no other gear (n = 5 from earring d = 10 from double attack trait), the double attack increases their DoT by this much.

% increase = 100(5)/(100 + 10) = 500/110 = 4.54%.

That's huge in comparison to the pathetic advantage of more STR.

For Triple Attack, you could use the following.

% increase = 100*(2*m)/(100 + 2*t), m is the amount added by the new piece of gear, t is what you already had. So in the case of Epona's Ring, the DoT increase just from the Triple Attack portion, could be approximated by this.

% increase = 100*(2*3)/(100 + 2*0)
% increase = 600/100 =6.00%

Lastly, those two equations I gave aren't exactly correct. They don't take into account how double attack and triple attack overlap and the contribution of kick attacks (double attack can't proc on them) to your DoT. However, the changes they would only affect the results by fractions of a percent. So these are still pretty good ballpark figures, and adequately shows that meleeing in STR over Double Attack/Triple Attack is a horrible idea.

[Dfoley]

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0ByJNUfIjyWzrNmM1YTI0MGYtYTc1ZC00ZWU2LTgzNDktYmRlM2I0MjA1NTkz&hl=en

This is a haste tool I made and you can use it to see the difference between 24 and 25% haste vs losing that 1% haste and gaining 5% da or 3% TA

Download the excel file (dont try to use it on google docs).

[Dfoley]

Example:
with 24% gear haste and 15% spell haste
30% da, 15% ta

You are looking at ~59 hits a min that you gain roughly 5.6tp for

Add in the 1% haste to bump you to 25% and you are looking at roughly, 60 hits a min

Add in 3% da/ta instead of the haste, (24% gear) and you are at 62 swings a min.

So in this example you are better off being at 24% gear haste (15% spell) and going for the extra da/ta

[Cream_Soda]

You have some tremendous misconceptions about how STR, Double Attack, and Triple Attack work.

To begin with, you don't need any native Triple Attack trait to receive benefit from Triple Attack gear. Epona's Ring, for instance, will give you a 3% Triple Attack occurrence despite not having the trait to begin with. The same statement can be said for double attacks.

STR can help in two ways. First, 2 STR = 1 Attack. Most people understand this quite easily. The second is a bit more obscure, it's called fSTR. fSTR is a value calculated from the difference between your STR and the mobs VIT. The value is augmented onto the DMG from your weapon. It's a weird step function that only increases by one per 4-6 STR you add. A general rule of thumb is that with a high margin between your STR and the mobs VIT, then +4 STR = +1 DMG, which is often the case with MNK these days for a variety of reasons. However, fSTR also caps. The cap is 8 + weapon rank. Weapon rank, for hand to hand weapons, is (DMG+3)/9, rounded down, where DMG is the +DMG listed on your weapon. So for 90 Verethragna, for instance, the fSTR cap is 8+(35+3)/9 = 8+4.22 = 8+4 = 12. The fSTR cap will occur when you have (14 + 2x weapon rank)*2 more STR than the mobs VIT, so in my case 44 STR. Once you go beyond this point, then the only advantage to more STR on meleeing is due to the 2 STR = 1 Attack (which is somewhat of a pitiful bonus, to be honest.)

Full Tantra +2 feet/body/head/tathlum, Rajas Ring, Black Belt, (all of this is standard TP gear) red curry bun and merits yields STR+66. So any mob I'm fighting, as a hume MNK, will need at least 105 VIT in order for fSTR to become uncapped. This doesn't really occur anywhere outside of Abyssea except on a few HNM nobody fights (but even then I doubt this), and even if it does, it's not really a big deal (I'll explain why in a bit.) Inside of Abyssea, this never happens, because cruor buffs add between 30 and 70 STR on top of this.

Now, let's say that, for some reason you might encounter a situation where fSTR starts to become uncapped. The total DMG that's used for your melee attacks is this.

Total DMG = 3+0.11(h2h skill) + weapon DMG + fSTR. 90 MNK with 8 H2H merits, Faith Torque, and Tantra gets 391 H2H skill.

Total DMG = 3 + 0.11(391) + 35 + 12
Total DMG = 3 + 33.01 + 35 + 12
Total DMG = 3 + 33 + 35 + 12
Total DMG = 93

So losing 1 fSTR brings my melee DoT down by 1.08%. I understand that not everybody is going to have Verethagna and Faith/Tantra. So for those calculations, you could just use capped merits and Taurine Cesti.

Total DMG = 3 + 0.11(377) + 28 + 11
Total DMG = 3 + 41.47 + 28 + 11
Total DMG = 3 + 41 + 28 + 11
Total DMG = 83

Losing 1 fSTR equates to a 1.20% decrease in melee damage.

So in either of these cases, it's very small, and unlikely to occur anyways.

Double Attack/Triple Attack, on the other hand, will raise your DoT immensely. The marginal gains can be approximated by the following (for double attack.)

% increase = 100*(n)/(100 + d). n represents the double attack increase some piece of gear provides while d is the double attack you had before adding that gear. So, in the case of brutal earring on a MNK/WAR with no other gear (n = 5 from earring d = 10 from double attack trait), the double attack increases their DoT by this much.

% increase = 100(5)/(100 + 10) = 500/110 = 4.54%.

That's huge in comparison to the pathetic advantage of more STR.

For Triple Attack, you could use the following.

% increase = 100*(2*m)/(100 + 2*t), m is the amount added by the new piece of gear, t is what you already had. So in the case of Epona's Ring, the DoT increase just from the Triple Attack portion, could be approximated by this.

% increase = 100*(2*3)/(100 + 2*0)
% increase = 600/100 =6.00%

Lastly, those two equations I gave aren't exactly correct. They don't take into account how double attack and triple attack overlap and the contribution of kick attacks (double attack can't proc on them) to your DoT. However, the changes they would only affect the results by fractions of a percent. So these are still pretty good ballpark figures, and adequately shows that meleeing in STR over Double Attack/Triple Attack is a horrible idea.
Mojo saved me a lot of typing. Good work.

[Nvr]

I am confused. The title of the thread is Double attack vs haste and his concern was that people were using DA gear where they could use Haste gear, but his question is...


isn't it better to have better STR than double attack?


I feel like the thread got off topic in the original post lol...

On a side note, thank you Mojo for the very detail reasoning behind DA vs STR, which is probably what the thread should have been titled

[Musahashi]

I am confused. The title of the thread is Double attack vs haste and his concern was that people were using DA gear where they could use Haste gear, but his question is...



I feel like the thread got off topic in the original post lol...

On a side note, thank you Mojo for the very detail reasoning behind DA vs STR, which is probably what the thread should have been titled

...Well, not exactly what I was looking for.

As my original post asked for a chart showing the difference between DA and HASTE in your equipment slots. However someone started me off on going down the road of DA vs. STR, and to be honest, even with that post, I would still rather get more STR and HASTE than DA.

Reason being, if for example, I'm fighting an NM/HNM/Caturae whatever, you can bet your bottom dollar I'm gonna get a haste, and from that point on, I'm attacking almost as quick as w/ hundred fists. So why bother wasting your space on DA equipment? If you want seriously quick attacks, just /war have your RDM friend cast haste on you, and the only time you stop hitting is when you use an ability.

Because of this misunderstading in DA, I actually went and found the graph I was talking about. Take a look and have a think.
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/160/haste2so6jy9.png

[Faule]

The graph is showing an independent comparison. It does not prove that Double Attack (or Triple Attack by proxy) is worthless. It's showing you the difference between using ONLY haste, versus ONLY Double Attack.

When you cap haste, increasing your attack rounds in any other fashion is acceptable. Triple Attack and Double Attack are your only other options.

If the graph showed you the effect of Double Attack/Triple Attack ON a Hasted target, you'd see that it's a good addition to anyone's gearset.

[Musahashi]

But for what compromise? If we're talking about swapping out a STR+5 VIT+5 earring for a DA+1 TA+1 earring or maybe both earrings, I'd much rather have STR and VIT instead.

What other areas have we got... Ammo? Again, I'd rather have more STR than minimal DA

As for everything else, your going to be losing something for a marginal gain on DA/TA that isn't really going to be worth the effort, or price tag. If you seriously want to try and cap both DA and haste on your gear, then figure out your setup, because I'd like to know if it can still hit for as much, and if there is any actual benefit to DoT.

[Nepharite]

But for what compromise? If we're talking about swapping out a STR+5 VIT+5 earring for a DA+1 TA+1 earring or maybe both earrings, I'd much rather have STR and VIT instead.

What other areas have we got... Ammo? Again, I'd rather have more STR than minimal DA

As for everything else, your going to be losing something for a marginal gain on DA/TA that isn't really going to be worth the effort, or price tag. If you seriously want to try and cap both DA and haste on your gear, then figure out your setup, because I'd like to know if it can still hit for as much, and if there is any actual benefit to DoT.

If you would have read Mojo's post, you'd realize that all that str is basically adding nothing to your tp phase.

Basically 1% DA is going to be worth more than +5str easily.

[Denabond]

You should reread Mojo's post. He has basically have all the math showing how DA and TA does more then STR when it comes to TPing. Haste is of course the most important, but DA and TA adds to that by giveing you more attacks, which in turn gives you more TP to WS.

[Mojo]

Haste is usually much better than Double Attack or Triple Attack because of the way it is applied, but you need a lot of it to truly reach the awesomeness point.

To address the questions of the original post, here's a way to compare marginal gains from Double Attack, Triple Attack, or Haste.


Variable Stat
g The amount of haste to be added.
h The amount of haste already had.
n The amount of double attack to be added.
d The amount of double attack already had.
m The amount of triple attack to be added.
t The amount of triple attack already had.

% increase = (g)/(100-g-h)
% increase = (100*n)/(100 + d)
% increase = (200*m)/(100 + 2*t)

Remember a marginal gain represents the increase from what you had before you equipped that once piece of gear to what you observe after.

For instance, equipping a Black Belt without any other source of Haste (g=12 h=0) yields the following.

% increase = 12/(100-12-0) = 12/88 = 13.6%

Now, equipping the same Black Belt when you had spell Haste(15), Tantra Crown +2(7), & Tantra Hose +2(6) (g=12, h=15+7+6=28) yields the following.

% increase = 12/(100-12-28) = 12/60 = 20.0%

So the more you have of it, the better it will get. That explains what you see on the graph, with haste curving upward exponentially as it approaches 100. Also worth noting is that haste from gear caps at 25. So if you happen to have Black Belt, Tantra Crown +2 and Tantra Hose +2, you will no longer experience any gains from adding haste from equipment.

Double Attack and Triple Attack do not experience the same increasing returns that Haste does. However, as my last post did show, the benefits of Double Attack and Triple Attack are leaps and bounds ahead of STR.

Alright, I lied earlier about something. You will gain something from the 26th point of gear haste because the actual values for haste are binary and are often just below the listed value (Wahlahra Turban, for instance, is 4.8828125% haste, not 5%.) But really, you don't need to worry too much about those fractions. These ballpark figures will give you good enough estimates when comparing gear.

So, for the most part, gearing for haste is going to be better point for point than Double Attack and usually better than Triple Attack. Honestly though, I can't think of any gear that would ever force you to choose between the two. It just never happens.

[Cream_Soda]

I'm attacking almost as quick as w/ hundred fists. So why bother wasting your space on DA equipment?
Because you'll attack more w/ it than w/o it.


If you want seriously quick attacks, just /war have your RDM friend cast haste on you, and the only time you stop hitting is when you use an ability.


And you'd still hit more w/ DA gear.

Haste's delay cap for attack speed has 0 to do with double attack, just how fast your attack rounds come. The DA is still applied to each of those attack rounds and you get the exact same number of extra attacks at high levels of haste vs low levels of haste.

So simply adding a lot of magic haste doesn't make DA gear any less useful.

[Mojo]

Also, I thought I might add that the chart there is somewhat outdated. There is an attack speed reduction of 80% that applies to all sources of attack speed modification. But, back in the days before this existed, a lone DRK/SAM with the best Haste gear available, Soul Voice'd Marches, Haste, capped Desperate Blows, Hasso, Souleater & Blood Weapon up could pretty much destructinate anything in the game within seconds because they were literally attacking 16 times faster than normal and hitting for more than 12% of their HP per swing.

[Corwin]

Bad case of too much eyeballing numbers and not enough number crunching. Your unbacked arguments of stacking STR for TP is terrible.

Use a chart that is more than slightly relevant to your stance.

[Musahashi]

I guess trying to help out people is pointless, oh well. You guys, go for your DA/TA bonus' lol!

Me, I'm gonna stick w/ STR + haste, I've tried it, tested it, and for 7 years, I still haven't hit any damage cap/limitation, even in abyssea w/ over 200 STR on offer, and still find the DoT is better with more STR than any kind of DA bonus.

I haven't ever made any charts on this, nor had 3rd party software log my results, but I have tested out different options. Everything from substituting acc for Dex, Str for Att, and trying out various setups for TP build and WS builds.

My finds are simple, gear to the haste cap, the acc cap, and fill everything else with STR. then you can sit back and watch SAM's cry. If you guys wanna go for DA, feel free.... lol.

[Mojo]

If you're choosing STR over Double Attack or Triple Attack, you are failing hard. There is nothing you can possibly say to justify it other than you don't truly understand how either STR or Double/Triple Attack contributes to your damage.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Did I miss something about damage calculations where stacking str at capped fstr started beating DA, or did someone just completely ignore the math on it. You really should stop eyeballing, and if you're that adamant about not using 3rd party software, find someone who will test for you it's really not hard to see that stacking Str especially in abyssea is not as effective as you somehow think it is compared to DA/TA gear (although admittedly mnk only has ~1 piece of the latter unless I missed something).

[Cream_Soda]

lol, i have the feeling I could embarrass this guy w/ my 100 marksmanship, evisceration cor

[Nepharite]

I guess trying to help out people is pointless, oh well. You guys, go for your DA/TA bonus' lol!

Me, I'm gonna stick w/ STR + haste, I've tried it, tested it, and for 7 years, I still haven't hit any damage cap/limitation, even in abyssea w/ over 200 STR on offer, and still find the DoT is better with more STR than any kind of DA bonus.

I haven't ever made any charts on this, nor had 3rd party software log my results, but I have tested out different options. Everything from substituting acc for Dex, Str for Att, and trying out various setups for TP build and WS builds.

My finds are simple, gear to the haste cap, the acc cap, and fill everything else with STR. then you can sit back and watch SAM's cry. If you guys wanna go for DA, feel free.... lol.

I'm not sure who your trying to help or why your so stuck on your str statement.
Math does not lie. Are you just not good at math? Its done for you, you just have to look at the results.
You can use all the str you want. Trying to get other people to follow your ideas are what we care about.

I guess this statement explains alot about you: "then you can sit back and watch SAM's cry"
not going to point out all that is wrong with that.

[Nepharite]

lol, i have the feeling I could embarrass this guy w/ my 100 marksmanship, evisceration cor

I probably could out DD him on rdm or pld...

[Musahashi]

Mojo, I've tested and found that reducing STR from 82 to 77 costs me 40~50 points of dmg per hit on a level 70~ish mob (Yagudo Assasin, Castle Oztroja).

But looking at your graph... shouldn't the Yagudo Assasin therefore have over 200 VIT? Realistic?

As for Hits vs DMG, a loss of 40~50 dmg is 400~500 dmg lost every 10 hits, we can attack up to a limit of 8 hits per round, my average number of hits per round is 5, without DA modifiers.

So in 2 rounds I cut 5 STR from my gear, and lose 400~500 DMG, if I had put DA+1 in that same spot, it might raise my average number of hits to 6 or 7, therefore still losing DMG, but only 200~400 DMG

So where is the gain? It's much like the promised gains of Att instead of STR, it raises the potential, but never delivers.

[Nepharite]

Mojo, I've tested and found that reducing STR from 82 to 77 costs me 40~50 points of dmg per hit on a level 70~ish mob (Yagudo Assasin, Castle Oztroja).

But looking at your graph... shouldn't the Yagudo Assasin therefore have over 200 VIT? Realistic?

As for Hits vs DMG, a loss of 40~50 dmg is 400~500 dmg lost every 10 hits, we can attack up to a limit of 8 hits per round, my average number of hits per round is 5, without DA modifiers.

So in 2 rounds I cut 5 STR from my gear, and lose 400~500 DMG, if I had put DA+1 in that same spot, it might raise my average number of hits to 6 or 7, therefore still losing DMG, but only 200~400 DMG

So where is the gain? It's much like the promised gains of Att instead of STR, it raises the potential, but never delivers.

This is why we don't eyeball things, how large was your sample size?

[Musahashi]

Well, about 13 days, 4/5 hours a day, 16 minute respawn, so yeah, a lot of Yag's dead, people tried to tell me DA is good before, it was actually the same people that told me att is better than str lol.

Test the graphs and the math, 80% is just theory, because SE haven't actually released any of the math the game actually uses, the only math we have confirmed, is the math taken from reverse-engineering the game, or in otherwords, hacking.

[Mojo]

Stacking STR isn't effective anywhere anymore, Abyssea or not. Non Verethragna 90 MNK (assuming a base STR of 82+5 from merits) will need 4 less STR to cap fSTR, which means 109 VIT on the mob. 90 Spharai MNKs will need 4 more, so 101 VIT on the mob. A level 90 monster with A rank VIT in type, job, and subjob will still only have 93 VIT (this type of mob doesn't even exist and I think Vrtra/Tiamat/Jorm are the only non Abyssea mobs higher than 90 anyways.) Yeah, stuff like that simply just doesn't exist.

[Nepharite]

Well, about 13 days, 4/5 hours a day, 16 minute respawn, so yeah, a lot of Yag's dead, people tried to tell me DA is good before, it was actually the same people that told me att is better than str lol.

Test the graphs and the math, 80% is just theory, because SE haven't actually released any of the math the game actually uses, the only math we have confirmed, is the math taken from reverse-engineering the game, or in otherwords, hacking.

I would like to see your tp set.

[Mojo]

You didn't lose that much damage per hit. You're either lieing, have a poor and selective memory, or did not have an adequate sample size.

You can make crap up for the sake of a discussion on the internet, but you're not going to win anybody over here. You're just going to make yourself look stupid.

[Cream_Soda]

Well, about 13 days, 4/5 hours a day, 16 minute respawn, so yeah, a lot of Yag's dead, people tried to tell me DA is good before, it was actually the same people that told me att is better than str lol.

Test the graphs and the math, 80% is just theory, because SE haven't actually released any of the math the game actually uses, the only math we have confirmed, is the math taken from reverse-engineering the game, or in otherwords, hacking.
80% is certainly not a theory. It has been tested and proven, various times, lol.

[Cream_Soda]

You didn't lose that much damage per hit. You're either lieing, have a poor and selective memory, or did not have an adequate sample size.

You can make crap up for the sake of a discussion on the internet, but you're not going to win anybody over here. You're just going to make yourself look stupid.
Also, this.

[Musahashi]

Exactly why I'm saying the math on fSTR is just theory, and can't possibly be correct. Otherwise, while fighting Yagudo Assasins in Castle Oztroja, swapping out STR+5 for my guard earring wouldn't have made any difference to damage dealt to level 70~ish mob, but it did, extensively.

[Nepharite]

Exactly why I'm saying the math on fSTR is just theory, and can't possibly be correct. Otherwise, while fighting Yagudo Assasins in Castle Oztroja, swapping out STR+5 for my guard earring wouldn't have made any difference to damage dealt to level 70~ish mob, but it did, extensively.

No it isn't theory, it is correct. Its been proven hundreds of times.

I'm astounded how people cannot understand simple game mechanics after the game has been out this long...

[Cream_Soda]

Exactly why I'm saying the math on fSTR is just theory, and can't possibly be correct. Otherwise, while fighting Yagudo Assasins in Castle Oztroja, swapping out STR+5 for my guard earring wouldn't have made any difference to damage dealt to level 70~ish mob, but it did, extensively.
No, it didn't. Again, you're pulling it out of your rear. You have absolutely 0 data to back it up and you know nothing of game mechanics.

[Musahashi]

80% is certainly not a theory. It has been tested and proven, various times, lol.

By who? Who came up with these equations? Anyone you know? Have you seen the code for yourself?

As for damage lost, look long term, DA isn't going to make up that damage lost, and therefore you deal less DoT. I think a few hundred Yagudo's are fair enough for a good test. And why would I make anything up? I honestly don't care who you think is stupid, but blindly following untested theories, and ideas from wikipedia aren't making you shine either lol.

Believe what you want, replace STR and Haste gear if you like, I won't be as previously mentioned. Because at the end of the day, there are many theories on dmg output floating around, to follow them blindly puts you in the same boat as everyone who once thought the world was flat.

[Musahashi]

Alot of people seem to be backing up the fSTR theory...

If you believe in this theory, explain to me how going from 82 STR to 77 STR can result in a loss of 40~50 DMG while fighting Yagudo Assassins in Castle Oztroja. Go.

[Nepharite]

By who? Who came up with these equations? Anyone you know? Have you seen the code for yourself?

As for damage lost, look long term, DA isn't going to make up that damage lost, and therefore you deal less DoT. I think a few hundred Yagudo's are fair enough for a good test. And why would I make anything up? I honestly don't care who you think is stupid, but blindly following untested theories, and ideas from wikipedia aren't making you shine either lol.

Believe what you want, replace STR and Haste gear if you like, I won't be as previously mentioned. Because at the end of the day, there are many theories on dmg output floating around, to follow them blindly puts you in the same boat as everyone who once thought the world was flat.

haha, I hope your just trolling.
Anyways, I'm done for the day, have fun with your str thing, hope it works out for you.
To everyone else Musahashi is an example of what not to do. 7 years of doing it wrong.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Alot of people seem to be backing up the fSTR theory...

If you believe in this theory, explain to me how going from 82 STR to 77 STR can result in a loss of 40~50 DMG while fighting Yagudo Assassins in Castle Oztroja. Go.

Not even the worst DDs in the game would experience a loss that huge from losing 5 str, calling BS on this/you didn't do a proper test and were eyeballing, which you already admitted you were.

[Cream_Soda]

By who? Who came up with these equations? Anyone you know? Have you seen the code for yourself?

Kirschy has done a lot of extensive testing on haste. While I'm sure she didn't make the formulas, she has certainly tested and confirmed them numerous times.


As for damage lost, look long term, DA isn't going to make up that damage lost, and therefore you deal less DoT. I think a few hundred Yagudo's are fair enough for a good test.
You don't know how DA works and you don't know how STR works. Any test you do based on eye balling is invalid.

Ok, what was your average damage/hit with str+5 and without str+5. I'm not looking for 40-70 damage difference, I'm looking at an exact average.

For example.
Let's say you hit 10 times. 100 101 93 95 110 89 115 102 101 105. out of those 10 hits, your average damage/punch is 101.1 If you don't have an average before str and an average after str with an exact number of hits used, then your "testing" is 100% invalid.


Believe what you want, replace STR and Haste gear if you like, I won't be as previously mentioned. Because at the end of the day, there are many theories on dmg output floating around, to follow them blindly puts you in the same boat as everyone who once thought the world was flat.

Again, I would really be willing to bet my Corsair could out damage your monk.

[Cream_Soda]

Alot of people seem to be backing up the fSTR theory...

If you believe in this theory, explain to me how going from 82 STR to 77 STR can result in a loss of 40~50 DMG while fighting Yagudo Assassins in Castle Oztroja. Go.
Because you're eyeballing your results and are misaccurately measuring your damage. Again, as stated in my previous post. Give me an exact average before 5 str and an exact average after 5 str. If you can't do that, your testing means nothing.

[Greatguardian]

The guy says he averages 5 attacks per round.

Averages.

5 per round.

By your selective memories combined, I am Captain Eyeballing.

(MNK/WAR with Apoc/A&O/VV atmas with Brutal/Epona's, KA merits, Tantra neck, 5/5 AF3+2, etc can only average 3.06 attacks per round)

[Cream_Soda]

The guy says he averages 5 attacks per round.

Averages.

5 per round.

By your selective memories combined, I am Captain Eyeballing.

(MNK/WAR with Apoc/A&O/VV atmas with Brutal/Epona's, KA merits, Tantra neck, 5/5 AF3+2, etc can only average 3.06 attacks per round)
Can you quote that part, please? I totally missed it and could use a good laugh.

[Greatguardian]

Mojo, I've tested and found that reducing STR from 82 to 77 costs me 40~50 points of dmg per hit on a level 70~ish mob (Yagudo Assasin, Castle Oztroja).

But looking at your graph... shouldn't the Yagudo Assasin therefore have over 200 VIT? Realistic?

As for Hits vs DMG, a loss of 40~50 dmg is 400~500 dmg lost every 10 hits, we can attack up to a limit of 8 hits per round, my average number of hits per round is 5, without DA modifiers.

So in 2 rounds I cut 5 STR from my gear, and lose 400~500 DMG, if I had put DA+1 in that same spot, it might raise my average number of hits to 6 or 7, therefore still losing DMG, but only 200~400 DMG

So where is the gain? It's much like the promised gains of Att instead of STR, it raises the potential, but never delivers.

^ Filling up minimum space requirements here

[Cream_Soda]

http://i33.tinypic.com/28lb4uf.jpg

[Musahashi]

Because you're eyeballing your results and are misaccurately measuring your damage. Again, as stated in my previous post. Give me an exact average before 5 str and an exact average after 5 str. If you can't do that, your testing means nothing.

Like I said, I don't use 3rd party software to log my results, and I'm not one to write thesis on game math, so taking any time to write down 1000's of hits, not for me, but you may if you like.

And yes, the haste math has been confirmed, it was first offered to us by the creators of windower (illegally), and tested after by hundreds of people, but nobody knows where the math on fSTR came from, nobody has tested it extensively, and there is no possible way that the limitations can be correct if I lose any DMG dealt on a mob 20 levels lower than me, and with only losing 5 STR.

So I'm not telling you to do anything/believe anything I write, I'm telling you to go test it for yourself, because right now, your telling me things that you haven't tested either, and the math equations have probably been drafted by trolls, and since hacking isn't really legal, I'm not willing to reverse-engineer the game just to prove you wrong.

In my opinion, getting out into an area, killing a few hundred mobs, or maybe less gives me a very accurate idea of what is good and bad for my mnk. I would much rather do things that way, rather than read and follow an untested theory just because the equations are complex enough to believe.

[Greatguardian]

Like I said, I don't use 3rd party software to log my results, and I'm not one to write thesis on game math, so taking any time to write down 1000's of hits, not for me, but you may if you like.

And yes, the haste math has been confirmed, it was first offered to us by the creators of windower (illegally), and tested after by hundreds of people, but nobody knows where the math on fSTR came from, nobody has tested it extensively, and there is no possible way that the limitations can be correct if I lose any DMG dealt on a mob 20 levels lower than me, and with only losing 5 STR.

So I'm not telling you to do anything/believe anything I write, I'm telling you to go test it for yourself, because right now, your telling me things that you haven't tested either, and the math equations have probably been drafted by trolls, and since hacking isn't really legal, I'm not willing to reverse-engineer the game just to prove you wrong.

In my opinion, getting out into an area, killing a few hundred mobs, or maybe less gives me a very accurate idea of what is good and bad for my mnk. I would much rather do things that way, rather than read and follow an untested theory just because the equations are complex enough to believe.

There is where you went wrong, and where you lost ... no, you can't lose credibility you don't have.

[Cream_Soda]

Like I said, I don't use 3rd party software to log my results, and I'm not one to write thesis on game math, so taking any time to write down 1000's of hits, not for me, but you may if you like.
I've done sufficient testing myself on game mechanics. I just wanted to see where you were pulling your numbers from, which is out of your rear, lol.


but nobody knows where the math on fSTR came from, nobody has tested it extensively, and there is no possible way that the limitations can be correct if I lose any DMG dealt on a mob 20 levels lower than me, and with only losing 5 STR.
yes, it's been tested quite extensively, lol.

You're not losing damage, you're eye balling. You admit yourself you didn't even bother to write anything down. You're not a human calculator. You're looking at a few high damage hits and a few low dmg hits and making assumptions based on that.

Knowing your stats and the enemy's stats, you can math out your damage. You can math out the highest damage hit possible and the lowest damage hit possible, as well as your average. The difference between your lower bound and your higher bound will be quite a large difference. Leaving that 5 str on, you can still hit those low numbers that you were supposedly seeing w/o the 5 str.


Again though, you can gear how you want, I frankly don't care how you gear, but when you're here on a forum telling other people who may take you seriously when you say that str is better than DA, yea, I'll come out and correct you, because you're flat out wrong.

[Musahashi]

The guy says he averages 5 attacks per round.

Averages.

5 per round.

By your selective memories combined, I am Captain Eyeballing.

(MNK/WAR with Apoc/A&O/VV atmas with Brutal/Epona's, KA merits, Tantra neck, 5/5 AF3+2, etc can only average 3.06 attacks per round)

3.06 attacks per round.... LOL!

MNK always hits twice per round, ALWAYS. Include DA from /war and kick attacks. You'll find 3 hits per round happens 90+% of the time.

So 3.06 hits.... lmao!

[Cream_Soda]

So I'm not telling you to do anything/believe anything I write, I'm telling you to go test it for yourself, because right now, your telling me things that you haven't tested either,
I'm pretty sure I said quite the opposite, actually. I didn't go make the formulas, but I have gone out and confirmed them to be correct with my own testing.


I would much rather do things that way, rather than read and follow an untested theory just because the equations are complex enough to believe.

been tested many times, sorry.

[Vinc]

This is fairly obvious trolling you guys are falling for ~_~

[Greatguardian]

3.06 attacks per round.... LOL!

MNK always hits twice per round, ALWAYS. Include DA from /war and kick attacks. You'll find 3 hits per round happens 90+% of the time.

So 3.06 hits.... lmao!

2 (Minimum hits per round) + (.15 + .10 + 3 TA Rate)(2) + (1-.28)(.10 + .10 + .05 + .03 DA Rate)(1) + (.17 Kick Attack rate) + (.05 AF3+2 5/5 set bonus) =

2 + .56 + .2016 + .0476 + .05 = 2.8591 Attacks per round.

My bad, I forgot to adjust for DA being unable to proc on the same punch as a TA. With 28% TA, 28% DA, 17% Kick rate and 5/5 Set bonus (5%), Mnk averages 2.8591 attacks per round.

Edit: This is also with a total shit atma setup made just to prove a point.

[Cream_Soda]

3.06 attacks per round.... LOL!

MNK always hits twice per round, ALWAYS. Include DA from /war and kick attacks. You'll find 3 hits per round happens 90+% of the time.

So 3.06 hits.... lmao!

Do you know how to do math?

12% kick rate base, 5% from merits, 7% from af3+2 legs for 24% kick rate.

That is an average of .24 kicks per attack round.


You punch 2 times per attack round, that's 2 hits.

2 + .24 = 2.24 average number of attacks so far.

10% double attack from /war.

2 punches, each w/ a 10% to double attack, 2 x (.1) = .2 attacks.

For 1 attack round.

2 + .24 + .2 = 2.44 attacks AVERAGE.

How are you getting 3+ 90% of the time? You're not. You're eye balling, which again, amounts to nothing.

[Neisan_Quetz]

After what I've seen since this forum has started I don't know what's trolling anymore and assume the player base is full of misguided (saying this gently) individuals, and there's no less than one in this thread arguing about damage calculations he eyeballed without writing down.

[Musahashi]

I've done sufficient testing myself on game mechanics. I just wanted to see where you were pulling your numbers from, which is out of your rear, lol.


yes, it's been tested quite extensively, lol.

You're not losing damage, you're eye balling. You admit yourself you didn't even bother to write anything down. You're not a human calculator. You're looking at a few high damage hits and a few low dmg hits and making assumptions based on that.

Knowing your stats and the enemy's stats, you can math out your damage. You can math out the highest damage hit possible and the lowest damage hit possible, as well as your average. The difference between your lower bound and your higher bound will be quite a large difference. Leaving that 5 str on, you can still hit those low numbers that you were supposedly seeing w/o the 5 str.


Again though, you can gear how you want, I frankly don't care how you gear, but when you're here on a forum telling other people who may take you seriously when you say that str is better than DA, yea, I'll come out and correct you, because you're flat out wrong.

So prove it. Prove that I'm wrong.

The math equations on fSTR are not enough, because I know that the suggested lower and upper caps cannot possibly be correct.

If you have evidence, I'd like to know, who wrote the theory, who tested, where did they test it, what job did they test it on, what subjob did they have selected, how many different weapons did they try, how many different armor setups did they try?

Quite alot of questions, but then we don't even get close to where numbers used in the equations came from.

Without knowing all this, and testing every job, every race, every subjob for each of those jobs, multiple weapons and multiple amror sets you can't honestly confirm it. The only other way to confirm this mythical equation would be to reverse-engineer the game and see the equations for yourself.

[Vinc]

I'm trying too hard.

Enough already. Just wear your str rings, no one cares. Christ.

[Musahashi]

Do you know how to do math?

12% kick rate base, 5% from merits, 7% from af3+2 legs for 24% kick rate.

That is an average of .24 kicks per attack round.


You punch 2 times per attack round, that's 2 hits.

2 + .24 = 2.24 average number of attacks so far.

10% double attack from /war.

2 punches, each w/ a 10% to double attack, 2 x (.1) = .2 attacks.

For 1 attack round.

2 + .24 + .2 = 2.44 attacks AVERAGE.

How are you getting 3+ 90% of the time? You're not. You're eye balling, which again, amounts to nothing.

Troll for sure, or never played mnk, one or the other lol.

[Musahashi]

2 (Minimum hits per round) + (.15 + .10 + 3 TA Rate)(2) + (1-.28)(.10 + .10 + .05 + .03 DA Rate)(1) + (.17 Kick Attack rate) + (.05 AF3+2 5/5 set bonus) =

2 + .56 + .2016 + .0476 + .05 = 2.8591 Attacks per round.

My bad, I forgot to adjust for DA being unable to proc on the same punch as a TA. With 28% TA, 28% DA, 17% Kick rate and 5/5 Set bonus (5%), Mnk averages 2.8591 attacks per round.

Edit: This is also with a total shit atma setup made just to prove a point.

Atma? You gotta be kidding me.... get off the bandwagon son.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Why the hell does half of that stuff even matter for figuring out damage calculations, other than X job/race has slightly more str than y job/race? weapon damage rating and fstr cap doesn't change because you switched jobs.


Troll for sure, or never played mnk, one or the other lol.

This sounds like you.

[Greatguardian]

Atma? You gotta be kidding me.... get off the bandwagon son.

I added in 25% Triple Attack and 10% Double Attack from Atma to skew the numbers *In Your Favor*, and they still only showed 2.8 attacks per round. I was giving you the numerical advantage by putting Atmas in there. You still lost.

Also, Cream Soda's a better Monk than 99% of these forums could ever hope to be =/ even if he rides bikes with no tires.

[Cream_Soda]

The math equations on fSTR are not enough, because I know that the suggested lower and upper caps cannot possibly be correct.
No, you don't. I doubt your mental capacity to even be able to take the formula and calculate the suggested lower and upper caps yet alone to be able to verify they're incorrect.


As far as testing goes, how about this. You give me your gear set. When servers are back up, I'll tell you what your highest damage hit possible is going to be and what your lowest is going to be on Bees outside of Gustaberg.

If you can show me a screen shot of you doing more damage than what I say is the highest or less damage than what I say is the lowest, then you win.

[Cream_Soda]

Troll for sure, or never played mnk, one or the other lol.
yea, it's official. You don't know how to do middle school math.

[Cream_Soda]

Why the hell does half of that stuff even matter for figuring out damage calculations, other than X job/race has slightly more str than y job/race? weapon damage rating and fstr cap doesn't change because you switched jobs.



This sounds like you.
How can I be better than anyone on a job I've never played before?

[Nepharite]

I would love to see this guy's gear sets.

[Denabond]

There is only one thing I have to say.

WHY SO SERIOUS?
Sorry I had to say it

[KorPoni]

Didn't read every post, but Brutal Earring's Double Attack bonus is +5%.
Also, you can equip Epona's Ring for Double Attack +3% and Triple Attack +3%, and you are left still with enough slots to cap haste with your Monk, as well as get ample Str bonuses.
So, the answer is this: If you can cap haste, do it. If you can cap haste and get double attack/triple attack, do it. Instead of playing a numbers game, hunt for what you can to get all the flavors your after: Str, Haste, Double Attack, and Triple Attack.

[Cream_Soda]

I would love to see this guy's gear sets.
Here was mine at lv 75 on Fairy server: http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/30118
http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/30119

and here they are currently (The weps are lv 85 currently)
http://www.ffxiah.com/members/item-sets?id=187536
http://www.ffxiah.com/members/item-sets?id=192734


oh, wait you meant him didn't you? not me.

[Greatguardian]

I guess technically I have +50 STR in my TP set, but it's not because I'm gearing for STR =/

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/80321

@CS: Those are your member-specific URLs, you need to post the Public URL for us to see them

[Loir]

CS i think your gearsets are set to private

[Neisan_Quetz]

Musahashi on Lakshmi, selling moblin armor for 100 gil on Jeuno/WG AH. Same guy? would explain alot.

[Nepharite]

Here was mine at lv 75 on Fairy server: http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/30118
http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/30119

and here they are currently (The weps are lv 85 currently)
http://www.ffxiah.com/members/item-sets?id=187536
http://www.ffxiah.com/members/item-sets?id=192734


oh, wait you meant him didn't you? not me.

yeah i kinda wanted a laugh =/

[Cream_Soda]

Here was mine at lv 75 on Fairy server:

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/30118
http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/30119

and here they are currently (The weps are lv 85 currently)
http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/187536
http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/192734


oh, wait you meant him didn't you? not me.


There, fixed

[Reiokyu]

Wow, trolling has already made its way over here to the official forums. Or being clueless...or both...heck, they are not mutually exclusive sometimes.

I guess I will feed some flame to the potential troll fire, and ask exactly how race and subjob affect the calculations in this matter. The benefits that both provide can be broken down into stats. For example, dark knights attack bonus. As well as variants in basic stats.

As far as a statistical viewpoint is concerned, at least one side of the argument has posed numbers that may be tested for validity once the servers come back up. Even without a parser, it is not too hard to, if one is really dedicated, to actually read back through unfiltered chat logs and...put in damage into an excel file...via writing down by hand back before the official windowed mode, and window by window after it was released.

At the end of the day though this thread has provided a great deal of entertainment to me, and I have enjoyed reading it immensely. I will continue to do so.

[Greatguardian]

There, fixed

Augments on Anwig? Our sets are pretty much identical, but if there's an augment pair that beats out Aias I'll give it a shot

[Nepharite]

Wow, trolling has already made its way over here to the official forums. Or being clueless...or both...heck, they are not mutually exclusive sometimes.

I guess I will feed some flame to the potential troll fire, and ask exactly how race and subjob affect the calculations in this matter. The benefits that both provide can be broken down into stats. For example, dark knights attack bonus. As well as variants in basic stats.

As far as a statistical viewpoint is concerned, at least one side of the argument has posed numbers that may be tested for validity once the servers come back up. Even without a parser, it is not too hard to, if one is really dedicated, to actually read back through unfiltered chat logs and...put in damage into an excel file...via writing down by hand back before the official windowed mode, and window by window after it was released.

At the end of the day though this thread has provided a great deal of entertainment to me, and I have enjoyed reading it immensely. I will continue to do so.

you see, humes get a special bonus that makes 1 str add 10dmg.

[Evilvivi]

and to think, all that awesome mnk gear only totals 50k gil

[Cream_Soda]

Augments on Anwig? Our sets are pretty much identical, but if there's an augment pair that beats out Aias I'll give it a shot
For Asuran, back in the day, it was 25 ws acc 4 str, 5 attack.

For smite, it's 4 str 15 ws acc, 2% ws dmg. I was going to get 2% crit dmg, but it came out to be about identical to the 4 str, making any situation where even 1 point of acc is needed makes the str hat a much better choice.

And yes, it beats Aias

[Loir]

actually quick question and slight derail, whats your guys mdt set looking like?
http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/172966

I've had a odd time finding something to supplement into the pants that wouldn't add an inv space.

[Martinius]

Wow, trolling has already made its way over here to the official forums. Or being clueless...or both...heck, they are not mutually exclusive sometimes.


um, the clueless and trolls beat the rest of us here.

[Evilvivi]

I could be wrong, but I think lore slops are the only mdt pants mnk can wear, but havent tried to find anything else.

[Greatguardian]

For Asuran, back in the day, it was 25 ws acc 4 str, 5 attack.

For smite, it's 4 str 15 ws acc, 2% ws dmg. I was going to get 2% crit dmg, but it came out to be about identical to the 4 str, making any situation where even 1 point of acc is needed makes the str hat a much better choice.

And yes, it beats Aias

Very cool, I'll have to re-roll my hat.

Edit: Lore slops, yeah. You can pick up a pair with random shit augments from Abyssea (Attohwa I think?) if you can't find any on the AH.

[Martinius]

actually quick question and slight derail, whats your guys mdt set looking like?
http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/172966

I've had a odd time finding something to supplement into the pants that wouldn't add an inv space.

i use lore slops (i got a free pair w/ cure cast time -6% on it for my rdm, so already had) which gives -1%, and colossus mantle, which gives -2%. (i don't have denali yet >.>), so i cap w/ unmerrited shell 5. otherwise your setup looks really strong.

[Loir]

Already sitting at 24% for mdt and any whm i'd be with would have capped shell merits. Looking more at mdeff or more attractive hp or heck even INT pant.

[Cream_Soda]

actually quick question and slight derail, whats your guys mdt set looking like?
http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/172966

I've had a odd time finding something to supplement into the pants that wouldn't add an inv space.
You're not looking at the big picture, really.

You'll be meleeing while these mobs are casting spells and if it's something that casts a lot of spells,then you'll be losing a lot of damage.

W/ shellra V, you only need 23 MDT to cap your reduction. w/ just that I find myself to be fine on pretty much everything. I don't really use anything for MDB, after capping MDT, I use damage gear.

I use this set and am able to maintain capped haste while capping MDT

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/194794

I'm not sure how you'd work around that w/ shadow ring, but I'd work for something similar.

[Greatguardian]

Melee Hose are probably your best bet for HP (second best is Prince's Slops at +30).

Sangoma Lappa are INT+6 if you want to go that route. MNK can't get MDB in the pants slot that I'm aware of.

Edit: I just assumed standing MDT. If you're engaged, what CS has above looks solid.

[Loir]

I had a mix set before actually with pretty much the same layout and for the most part i found my timing to when a mob would nuke to be fairly well on. Sure i'll say there is some human error involved but most mobs have a fairly standard set to AI when they would nuke and planning to that isn't that bad. I'll probably bring back out my other set for fights where i'd see more random insta cast nukes or heavier casting spammed mobs then.

[Martinius]

Already sitting at 24% for mdt and any whm i'd be with would have capped shell merits. Looking more at mdeff or more attractive hp or heck even INT pant.

edit: beaten lol

[Loir]

my rani tanking these days is pretty much just easy mode of proc'ing blue and having our armageddon cor come and wildfire two shot the rest of rani and hug the martello till the next blue proc.

[Loir]

Mmmm how to word this. Not trying to act or sound superior but pre-shift to DD tanking before abyssea did you guys do any main tanking on pld and nin back in the day?

[Greatguardian]

I used PLD a fair amount back in the day, why do you ask?

[Loir]

Weird personal quirks that you get from tanking for eons. It was more a defense to the full out mdt set, I am usually trying to time myself into it right when the mobs spell would be near finished casting.



I'm not sure how you'd work around that w/ shadow ring, but I'd work for something similar.
Minerva's covers the two merman's rings so i'd be fine. Think I had the solea in there instead of the af3 boots to get some mdeff in but I'll just swap it over.

[Cream_Soda]

Weird personal quirks that you get from tanking for eons. It was more a defense to the full out mdt set, I am usually trying to time myself into it right when the mobs spell would be near finished casting.
I play wirelessly from one of my neighbors. That's frankly not an option for me lol. I'd never have a good enough connection for that.

[Greatguardian]

Weird personal quirks that you get from tanking for eons. It was more a defense to the full out mdt set, I am usually trying to time myself into it right when the mobs spell would be near finished casting.

Yeah, I gotcha. I have both, I'm just lazy and tend to just use my Hybrid set and let my Whm make up the difference as long as nothing can one-shot me.

[Mojo]

In regards to who initially came up with the formulas for things like fSTR, pDIF, Haste, WSC and the like, I don't know exactly who it was other than that they were JPs. The information was always published on studio gobli though.

http://www32.atwiki.jp/studiogobli/

Much of the testing procedures and data for newly discovered information is posted on there. It might be there for the older parts of the formulas, I really don't know. I do know, however, that the old formulas have been verified by countless players, myself included, to degrees of accuracy that are in most cases exact. We do know that they work.

[Loir]

I play wirelessly from one of my neighbors. That's frankly not an option for me lol. I'd never have a good enough connection for that.
I seem to remember this lol

Ugh and just cause I know this has been bugging me and I know its been asked in the RQT add nauseum. Looking at downing the last of chloris stage of verth and trading my way too many fangs in soon after servers are up. Presuming identical gear as your smite, if you had ire torque +1 would you use that over the gorget in acc capped situation. I think I recall you saying that it would be better but not worth the cost since post 90 there would be a chance of something better or that was defense to the beir belt+1.



Yeah, I gotcha. I have both, I'm just lazy and tend to just use my Hybrid set and let my Whm make up the difference as long as nothing can one-shot me.
Started out as taru nin tank way back in the day so always been overcautious to things doing the oneshot BS. Learned to have to maximize what I had to work with. With abyssea obviously doesn't matter but there is the odd thing here and there outside that I would probably not want to take the full brunt of the dmg.

Though I type that and I can't really tell you what that is.

[Martinius]

i've only ever tanked on mnk, but i was tanking a lot on mnk well before abyssea, and back in my HNM days, i tanked (intentionally lol) on sam a lot of the time. mnk was where i picked up all my ticks and instincts tho (sam was mostly "swap into arhats and hope third eye lasts more than 4 seconds").

the reason i try to keep as much DD gear on is because a couple of the whms in my shell don't play with blink-me-not, so if i really took it in the teeth from something, i stay in my MDT set for the 2-3 seconds to get cured up before blinking back to my full DD set.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Tell them what <stpt> and <stal> do so you can DD better and they can heal better, win/win.

[Greatguardian]

I think that was his nice way of saying they suck.

[Loir]

i've only ever tanked on mnk, but i was tanking a lot on mnk well before abyssea, and back in my HNM days, i tanked (intentionally lol) on sam a lot of the time. mnk was where i picked up all my ticks and instincts tho (sam was mostly "swap into arhats and hope third eye lasts more than 4 seconds").

the reason i try to keep as much DD gear on is because a couple of the whms in my shell don't play with blink-me-not, so if i really took it in the teeth from something, i stay in my MDT set for the 2-3 seconds to get cured up before blinking back to my full DD set.

Personally done the full scope of Nin in its prime to pld as the reliable tank to sam/nin on anything I could while monking in salvage and when abyssea came out I fought for sam but RR took a piss all over that and I've been happily monking since. I recall when we would get new recruits, back when the huge debate about blinking was still in favour of don't (pre BlinkMN), sticking them on whm and letting them cuss me out so can feel where you are coming from. But as the above poster said <stal> <stpt> are boss.

[Martinius]

lol i wasn't saying that those whms suck, but i blink A LOT, so it's the one compromise i try to offer is that you're gonna hate me while i double blink every 10-15 seconds of a fight, if i really took it in the teeth (which is basically rani nukes, serpentine tail and nuke > double tp move from amhuluk), then i'll wait for the cure 5/6 to land before swapping back to full DD gear. part of it is also i have rdm and whm and so i know the frustration on the other side (tho ya, i live off of <stal>, <stpt> and my personal favorite /ta <stwhatever> + <lastst>. :3

i hear you on sam lol. when abyssea came out, i got my mnk, rdm and blm up asap, and then i took out my sam once in an exp pt and promptly declared that job retired. it just couldn't keep up.

[Neisan_Quetz]

EDIT: beaten

[Loir]

Didn't learn right away, got masamune... though I did get some nice use out of it when we did the dynamis grind to 90 for our relic users.

[Gnoir]

Believe what you want, replace STR and Haste gear if you like, I won't be as previously mentioned. Because at the end of the day, there are many theories on dmg output floating around, to follow them blindly puts you in the same boat as everyone who once thought the world was flat.

I know this thread is dead but, I was bored and had too lol please look at this site, it belongs in this I think rofl
http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/