Time to re-adjust Blade: Shun

[Hayward]

OK, Blade: Shun shouldn't yield nearly the same damage at level 3 (I'm riding 5 Merit WS, so I can't max out any of them) that it does at level 1. Unless I'm missing something that causes this WS to jump to 2,000+ damage, something is gravely wrong when Blade: Jin outperforms it even after spending 45 merit points. Even raising the DEX modifier values would help.

[Scribble]

The new(er) WS are meant to be capped. If they outdid the previous best WS with only a few points everyone would toss a few points in everything and have them all. They might as well have just unlocked them at a certain skill cap.

My advice is to unlock it fully and properly gear yourself for it. At the risk of sounding elitist, based on your sig you could probably benefit from working out a nice gear set for it.

[Alpheus]

Also get a set of a elemental belt and gorget as they increase its fTP value and Shun like some of the other merit WS has its cumulative fTP spread out across all hits.

(I don't have Shun but shortly after the merit WSes were released it was determined that Shun along with Resolution had its fTP distributed across all its hits and that was the last i heard about that so idk if this was later found out to be wrong or not)

[SpankWustler]

Another two merits would push the modifier from 60% to 100% which is a substantial increase.

Using an fTP-boosting gorget and belt would increase the fTP from 0.6875 per hit to 0.8875 per hit which is a very substantial increase compared to the usual bonus for such gorgets and belts.

Without those changes, you're using a weaponskill with a horrible fTP value, a mild attack penalty, a pretty decent DEX modifier, and an inability to critical that makes the DEX modifier feel depressing. I'd expect the sad results you're reporting from such a weaponskill.

Your best bet is going to be culling two of your merit weaponskills and, depending on which remain, possibly obtaining the proper gorget(s) and belt(s) for them.

This isn't to say I think all of the merit weaponskills are just peachy keen in every way, but someone's equipment and merit set-up are far more likely to change than the Development Bros' concept of balance.

[Hayward]

Another two merits would push the modifier from 60% to 100% which is a substantial increase.

Using an fTP-boosting gorget and belt would increase the fTP from 0.6875 per hit to 0.8875 per hit which is a very substantial increase compared to the usual bonus for such gorgets and belts.

Without those changes, you're using a weaponskill with a horrible fTP value, a mild attack penalty, a pretty decent DEX modifier, and an inability to critical that makes the DEX modifier feel depressing. I'd expect the sad results you're reporting from such a weaponskill.

Your best bet is going to be culling two of your merit weaponskills and, depending on which remain, possibly obtaining the proper gorget(s) and belt(s) for them.

This isn't to say I think all of the merit weaponskills are just peachy keen in every way, but someone's equipment and merit set-up are far more likely to change than the Development Bros' concept of balance.

This makes the issue all the more galling. Currently I have Apex Arrow, Last Stand, Tachi: Shoha, Exenterator, and this. At level 3, each of the other weapon skills have reasonably good damage (how AGI mods outdo DEX mods is beyond me). I dumped Realmrazer because of S-E's outright refusal to give Paladins any weapon skill that is remotely useful that doesn't require a$$-kissing in a linkshell to build an Empyrean.

If it's the case there's an attack penalty, I might very well have to abandon the WS entirely. That's the major reason I've avoided Requiescat entirely.

[wish12oz]

This makes the issue all the more galling. Currently I have Apex Arrow, Last Stand, Tachi: Shoha, Exenterator, and this. At level 3, each of the other weapon skills have reasonably good damage (how AGI mods outdo DEX mods is beyond me). I dumped Realmrazer because of S-E's outright refusal to give Paladins any weapon skill that is remotely useful that doesn't require a$$-kissing in a linkshell to build an Empyrean.

If it's the case there's an attack penalty, I might very well have to abandon the WS entirely. That's the major reason I've avoided Requiescat entirely.

Build an LS? Make friends? Farm gil and buy it? Make a WHM mule and solo it? Saying you need an LS to farm an empyrean is sort of sad.
And ya, you need to 5/5 these WS's for them to be any good, and even then, some aren't all that good. So pick 3 and only 3. Then spend your time better gearing those chosen jobs instead of complaining that Jin is better, when it really isn't if you're not inside abyssea, and well, if you're inside abyssea, be happy you have a crit based WS like Jin to use.

[Draylo]

This makes the issue all the more galling. Currently I have Apex Arrow, Last Stand, Tachi: Shoha, Exenterator, and this. At level 3, each of the other weapon skills have reasonably good damage (how AGI mods outdo DEX mods is beyond me). I dumped Realmrazer because of S-E's outright refusal to give Paladins any weapon skill that is remotely useful that doesn't require a$$-kissing in a linkshell to build an Empyrean.

If it's the case there's an attack penalty, I might very well have to abandon the WS entirely. That's the major reason I've avoided Requiescat entirely.

Almace and Kannagi are soloable to 85, 90 can be done via shouting. Stop being lazy and helpless and go research.

[Fyreus]

This makes the issue all the more galling. Currently I have Apex Arrow, Last Stand, Tachi: Shoha, Exenterator, and this. At level 3, each of the other weapon skills have reasonably good damage (how AGI mods outdo DEX mods is beyond me). I dumped Realmrazer because of S-E's outright refusal to give Paladins any weapon skill that is remotely useful that doesn't require a$$-kissing in a linkshell to build an Empyrean.

If it's the case there's an attack penalty, I might very well have to abandon the WS entirely. That's the major reason I've avoided Requiescat entirely.

Heck, you can even get the NQ version which you can somewhat solo or get to lv90. The WSes aren't bad tbh... iirc ratscat does non elemental damage so vs high damage targets it's not that terrible but then again you got an enmity based WS that was decent last i saw.

[Sureal]

ive topped 4k shun inside abyssea, and 2.5-3kish outside with shun


your doing it wrong

[Lyrminas]

ive topped 4k shun inside abyssea, and 2.5-3kish outside with shun


your doing it wrong

while we're on the topic, anyone have WS Sets for this they'd like to share :) ? Currently using. . .

Ocelomeh Headpiece
Ele Gorget
Moonshade ( 4atk 25tp Bonus )
Brutal Earring
Toci's Harness
Iga Tekko +2
Rajas Ring ( Maybe another thundersoul, or does the 5str/dex even out with thundersoul? )
Thundersoul Ring
Atheling Mantle
Elemental Belt
Byakko's Haidate
Athos Boots ( Trying for Dillarams from pil )

I'm not getting 2.5k - 3k averages unless its on fodder mobs. It is pretty consistent unless I find myself behind the mob most of the time with innin up for Blade: Hi. Shun starts to shine when I'm fighting something that I'm having trouble getting good crit rate on or don't have the luxury of getting behind the mob.

[Ladyofdragons]

while we're on the topic, anyone have WS Sets for this they'd like to share :) ? Currently using. . .

Ocelomeh Headpiece
Ele Gorget
Moonshade ( 4atk 25tp Bonus )
Brutal Earring
Toci's Harness
Iga Tekko +2
Rajas Ring ( Maybe another thundersoul, or does the 5str/dex even out with thundersoul? )
Thundersoul Ring
Atheling Mantle
Elemental Belt
Byakko's Haidate
Athos Boots ( Trying for Dillarams from pil )

I'm not getting 2.5k - 3k averages unless its on fodder mobs. It is pretty consistent unless I find myself behind the mob most of the time with innin up for Blade: Hi. Shun starts to shine when I'm fighting something that I'm having trouble getting good crit rate on or don't have the luxury of getting behind the mob.

I use:
Scopuli Nails
Byakko Haidate
Iga Tekko +2
Iga Ningi +2
Iga Zukin +2
Rajas Ring
Spiral Ring
Suppanomimi
Triumph Earring +1
Qirmiz Tathlum

and still pull off 2-4kish in abyssea

[Lyrminas]

Still trying to improve my shuns as they seem to be the best option for me where hi is unreliable even with 300tp on higher tier content. My setup now looks like this, I have a few questions for mathematically well endowed contributors of the ninja forums if anyone would like to try their hand at the math!

Current Setup

Main: Kikoku99
Sub: STR Arisui 99
Ammo: Bomb Core

Ocelomeh Headpiece +1
Light Gorget
Brutal Earring
Moonshade Earring ( 4atk 25tp Bonus)
Toci's Harness
Iga Tekko +2
Rajas Ring
Thundersoul Ring
Atheling Mantle
Light Belt
Byakko's Haidate
Dilaram's Sollerets

Question(s)

1. Moonshade Earring, does TP bonus have any impact in small increments? FTP seems to be the same throughout 100/200/300tp. If it has no impact for this particular ws, what is the optimal earring for this slot?

2. Generally how much attack is needed to overcome a single DEX as a modifier per slot on content such as VW T6 type mobs. ( For weighing gear choices per slot such as replacing Rajas with a thundersoul, earrings with dex instead of TP bonus earring )

3. Any advice on gear choices for Blade: Shun.

Thank you in advance :D

[SpankWustler]

I can't be of much help, but maybe I can answer one question to a degree.


1. Moonshade Earring, does TP bonus have any impact in small increments? FTP seems to be the same throughout 100/200/300tp. If it has no impact for this particular ws, what is the optimal earring for this slot?

Rather than only affecting fTP, the effect of TP bonus items is identical to having that much more TP. So, a TP bonus Moonshade Earring should decrease the attack penalty by some nebulous amount in the case of Blade: Shun.

So...I assume the Moonshade Earring, which may already have +4 Attack on it, is very similar to a potent attack earring in the case of Blade: Shun. I have no idea if this makes it the best option, though.

[wish12oz]

Current Setup

Main: Kikoku99
Sub: STR Arisui 99
Ammo: Bomb Core

Ocelomeh Headpiece +1
Light Gorget
Brutal Earring
Moonshade Earring ( 4atk 25tp Bonus)
Toci's Harness
Iga Tekko +2
Rajas Ring
Thundersoul Ring
Atheling Mantle
Light Belt
Byakko's Haidate
Dilaram's Sollerets

Question(s)

1. Moonshade Earring, does TP bonus have any impact in small increments? FTP seems to be the same throughout 100/200/300tp. If it has no impact for this particular ws, what is the optimal earring for this slot?

The only thing thats know about Blade Shun TP modifiers is that it's -8% attack at 100 TP. If we assume what I think would be the worst case scenario, at 300 TP it would be -0% attack. At this value every 25 TP is basically going to be worth 1% attack. If you have 500 attack, which should be about the lowest possible for NIN at 99 in VW, 1% attack = 5 attack, plus the earring already has 4 attack, so 9 attack total should really be about the lowest value moonshade earring offers for the situations you say you use Blade Shun. I wouldn't waste inventory or gil on anything else without concrete evidence as to what the Blade Shun TP modifiers actually are, since the earring can potentially be a lot better than this, and you need it anyway for Blade Hi. So at worst you give up 1 attack, and potentially gain a lot more, as well as extra inventory space. If anything I would suggest a ghillie earring +1, since it has 3 accuracy.


2. Generally how much attack is needed to overcome a single DEX as a modifier per slot on content such as VW T6 type mobs. ( For weighing gear choices per slot such as replacing Rajas with a thundersoul, earrings with dex instead of TP bonus earring )

This question relies to much on information you have not given, you would need to know what you are fighting (which you listed) your gear (which you listed) what buffs you have, and what food youre using. The answer will be pretty different if you have 0 buffs vs using red curry, stalwarts and having chaos roll. But overall I don't think this question is really worth asking. There are no specific items where you have to pick between large amounts of DEX or large amounts of ATT except one, the earring. If the options are a 10k gil 10 attack earring or a 5m gil 4 DEX earring that will be replaced (a 5 DEX HQ crafted earring is in the DATs, as well as an NQ 4 DEX crafted earring) the answer to which you should use is pretty obvious, as the 4 DEX earring is a waste of gil. If there is something else though, please let me know and I will attempt to figure it out for you.

Also, you shouldnt replace Rajas with Thundersoul anyway. Personally, Im not a fan of having 2 of the same ring to equip in sets because it never quite works right for me. But anyway, the reason for Rajas over a second 7 DEX ring is that when applying the alpha correction to WSC (.85), 6 DEX and 7 DEX both only give 5 WSC, and 5 STR will always give 1 fSTR, which is exactly the same as 1 WSC and then the 5 DEX gives 4 WSC. So both rings when viewed entirely on their own are giving you +5 base damage. To determine which is actually better you would need to get into super specific information about your gear and what youre fighting and what buffs you have. Half the time the second 7 DEX ring wont even be better, and when it is better it wont give enough of an increase in damage to be worth inventory -1 or learning all the things you would need to learn about mobs in order to know when to be using it.


3. Any advice on gear choices for Blade: Shun.

Thank you in advance :D

The only thing I know of that will be better for this set are these gloves:
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/5/52/Myrmex_Mittens_description.png
Unless you are fSTR/ATT capped, which you won't be for anything decently hard. See Rajas ring explanation to understand why they're better, 10 STR is going to be pretty even with 3 DEX, and plus you get 15 Attack.

Some of the new abjuration stuff might be good too, but I wouldnt say to use any of it as its basically unobtainable. But like, these pants get an augment that no one even knows what it is yet, but even without it theyre going to be better than B Haidate. GL with them though.
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/d/dc/Khepri_Kecks_description.png

[Lyrminas]

The only thing thats know about Blade Shun TP modifiers is that it's -8% attack at 100 TP. If we assume what I think would be the worst case scenario, at 300 TP it would be -0% attack. At this value every 25 TP is basically going to be worth 1% attack. If you have 500 attack, which should be about the lowest possible for NIN at 99 in VW, 1% attack = 5 attack, plus the earring already has 4 attack, so 9 attack total should really be about the lowest value moonshade earring offers for the situations you say you use Blade Shun. I wouldn't waste inventory or gil on anything else without concrete evidence as to what the Blade Shun TP modifiers actually are, since the earring can potentially be a lot better than this, and you need it anyway for Blade Hi. So at worst you give up 1 attack, and potentially gain a lot more, as well as extra inventory space. If anything I would suggest a ghillie earring +1, since it has 3 accuracy.



This question relies to much on information you have not given, you would need to know what you are fighting (which you listed) your gear (which you listed) what buffs you have, and what food youre using. The answer will be pretty different if you have 0 buffs vs using red curry, stalwarts and having chaos roll. But overall I don't think this question is really worth asking. There are no specific items where you have to pick between large amounts of DEX or large amounts of ATT except one, the earring. If the options are a 10k gil 10 attack earring or a 5m gil 4 DEX earring that will be replaced (a 5 DEX HQ crafted earring is in the DATs, as well as an NQ 4 DEX crafted earring) the answer to which you should use is pretty obvious, as the 4 DEX earring is a waste of gil. If there is something else though, please let me know and I will attempt to figure it out for you.

Also, you shouldnt replace Rajas with Thundersoul anyway. Personally, Im not a fan of having 2 of the same ring to equip in sets because it never quite works right for me. But anyway, the reason for Rajas over a second 7 DEX ring is that when applying the alpha correction to WSC (.85), 6 DEX and 7 DEX both only give 5 WSC, and 5 STR will always give 1 fSTR, which is exactly the same as 1 WSC and then the 5 DEX gives 4 WSC. So both rings when viewed entirely on their own are giving you +5 base damage. To determine which is actually better you would need to get into super specific information about your gear and what youre fighting and what buffs you have. Half the time the second 7 DEX ring wont even be better, and when it is better it wont give enough of an increase in damage to be worth inventory -1 or learning all the things you would need to learn about mobs in order to know when to be using it.



The only thing I know of that will be better for this set are these gloves:
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/5/52/Myrmex_Mittens_description.png
Unless you are fSTR/ATT capped, which you won't be for anything decently hard. See Rajas ring explanation to understand why they're better, 10 STR is going to be pretty even with 3 DEX, and plus you get 15 Attack.

Some of the new abjuration stuff might be good too, but I wouldnt say to use any of it as its basically unobtainable. But like, these pants get an augment that no one even knows what it is yet, but even without it theyre going to be better than B Haidate. GL with them though.
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/d/dc/Khepri_Kecks_description.png

Thank you for your input! I've been trying to get those gloves, so far everything but that in the trove, our LS does provenance quite a bit so hopefully I'll get lucky and get that leg ><. As for the attack question, I'm glad it is serving some purpose ( The earring ).

@Spanktaru Thanks for your input too!

[Trisscar]

90 can be done via shouting.

Brew lock. What? Someone had to say it.

[saevel]

This makes the issue all the more galling. Currently I have Apex Arrow, Last Stand, Tachi: Shoha, Exenterator, and this. At level 3, each of the other weapon skills have reasonably good damage (how AGI mods outdo DEX mods is beyond me). I dumped Realmrazer because of S-E's outright refusal to give Paladins any weapon skill that is remotely useful that doesn't require a$$-kissing in a linkshell to build an Empyrean.

If it's the case there's an attack penalty, I might very well have to abandon the WS entirely. That's the major reason I've avoided Requiescat entirely.

Ok I haven't seen anyone say it yet so I will.

STOP BEING GIMP.

At level 3 most aren't even worth meriting, its the 100% WSC and TP Copy (sometimes) that makes them juicy. If your doing 5 @ 3/5 then your using 5 gimp WS's instead of 3 strong WS's.

I know it sucks having to pick and chose, I'm 5/5 Resolution, Shoha and Requiscat, I also want Apex Arrow / Star Diver / Ruinator / Extenator. I am not willing to gimp myself and fail everyone around me just to do that.

So pick 3 and just deal with it. It sucks, we all know and we've all asked SE to let us merit more. They ~may~ be looking into it, who knows with how a$$ backward they are. Until then don't fail your party / alliance / link shell members and your friends.

[wish12oz]

Ok I haven't seen anyone say it yet so I will.

If you wait less than 4 months to respond, it would probably be more helpful.

[saevel]

If you wait less than 4 months to respond, it would probably be more helpful.

Actually only noticed it was a necro after I posted.

[Lyrminas]

Any comment on Thaumas Nails? Just got it but I don't think its the best, dillarams for Shun ?

Dilaram's Sollerets RareExclusive
[Feet] All Races
DEF:26 STR+8 DEX+8 VIT+8 AGI+8
Attack+16 Critical Hit Rate -8%
Lv. 95 WAR / PLD / DRK / BST / SAM / NIN

VS

Thaumas nails RareExclusive
[Feet] All Races
DEF:26 DEX+9 AGI+9 MND+9
Attack+14
Ranged Attack+14
"Double Attack"+3%
Set: Increases STR, DEX, AGI, MND
Lv. 99 MNK/THF/RNG/NIN/BLU/COR/PUP/
DNC

I'm banking on no, but yes for Blade hi?

[wish12oz]

I dunno why I didn't think of Thaumas boots, but ya, you should use those for blade Shun, and also Hi. (well, I do know, its because I dont have shun/dont care/dont watch gear sets for it/rarly play nin)


Actually only noticed it was a necro after I posted.

It's cool, I was just making fun of you a little.

[Faule]

I'm still deluding myself into believing they'll change Shun to act similarly to Ruinator.


I'll... be waiting a while I think.