New enhancing spell for RDM to promote party support.

[Ophannus]

A spell designed to help tanks or healers or damage dealers or even themselves from ridiculously overpowered AoE's that have been the trend in Voidwatch and now also Legion(from my observations of the test server runs).

Fortuity
Level 96
Makes you immune from Severely Damaging Attacks.

Basically a similar effect to Earthen Armor/Scherzo or Migawari but single target and castable on others.

Realistically I can see SE stealing this idea and making it self-cast on RDM and giving WHM an AoE version called Fortuna, screwing RDM out of unique spells like they did with Gain and Boost spells. :/

[Byrth]

They should add a spell that gives the target (party member) up to 20% Double Attack to the game for Red Mage to cast on other people. We can call it Temper II. Also, we should add a single target (party member) spell that gives up to 25 STR to the game. We can call it "Gain STR II." Both could be obtained through tier 3 job merits. Bam! Red Mage would be relevant again as a healer for old content/meleeburns!

Or we could just fix RDM's native enhancing magic and let them target other players.

[saevel]

They should add a spell that gives the target (party member) up to 20% Double Attack to the game for Red Mage to cast on other people. We can call it Temper II. Also, we should add a single target (party member) spell that gives up to 25 STR to the game. We can call it "Gain STR II." Both could be obtained through tier 3 job merits. Bam! Red Mage would be relevant again as a healer for old content/meleeburns!

Or we could just fix RDM's native enhancing magic and let them target other players.

SE already said not no but hell no.

Anyway that would just 75 era cycles all over again. Haste Temper Cure IV, Haste Temper Cure IV, Haste Temper Cure IV. With the same predictable results.

[Ophannus]

Only if you suck and don't have AF3 and Composure for like triple duration on others. And god forbid RDM has something useful to cast rather than just sit there doing nothing, recasting Dia III every few minutes and nothing else. Haste already lasts like 12-15 minutes on other people with the right gear and we have so much haste and fastcast gear available that you can do a whole buff cycle on a single party in less than 1 minute and not have to recast it for another 15.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Only if you suck and don't have AF3 and Composure for like triple duration on others. And god forbid RDM has something useful to cast rather than just sit there doing nothing, recasting Dia III every few minutes and nothing else. Haste already lasts like 12-15 minutes on other people with the right gear and we have so much haste and fastcast gear available that you can do a whole buff cycle on a single party in less than 1 minute and not have to recast it for another 15.

AF3+2 is just under double, you're thinking of SCH with near triple.

[cidbahamut]

Well they could always up the duration of all enhancing magic. You know, that's a thing.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Rikkuri's statement from the Devs was that Rdm spells will not be made AoE. They can and should at the minimum be changed to Single Target, and it would help if their duration was increased.

[Byrth]

I just see it as the simplest option. They have a smaller Dev team than ever, and I have to imagine this is the easiest way to restore real demand from the job while keeping it unique from WHM. Client-side, at least, it is literally just a flag in the .dats. If they built their system logically, I don't really see why it would be more than that server-side.

If he could give me +25 STR, +20% DA, and more potent Cure 3/4s, my mule would come RDM a lot more often and would be a lot more useful when he came. I have to imagine this would be the case in any old-content event, where you're typically would take increased killspeed over WHM's defensive advantages/Cure V+VI/etc.

[cidbahamut]

Cue the tinfoil hat commander in 3...2...1...

[SpankWustler]

Red Mage receiving new or re-purposed enhancing magic in general would be a great thing. As it is now, the job has a lot of amazing abilities, traits, and equipment bonuses to apply to spells but very little of unique value to cast making those things moot.

It's like SE built an awesome foundation with the Empyrean armor and other recent additions, and then stuck two tents dubbed "Temper" and "Addle" on it instead of building a house.


If they built their system logically

http://www.littlestuffedbull.com/images/comics/mostfunever/whatif22.jpg

[saevel]

Only if you suck and don't have AF3 and Composure for like triple duration on others. And god forbid RDM has something useful to cast rather than just sit there doing nothing, recasting Dia III every few minutes and nothing else. Haste already lasts like 12-15 minutes on other people with the right gear and we have so much haste and fastcast gear available that you can do a whole buff cycle on a single party in less than 1 minute and not have to recast it for another 15.

Umm triple duration?

+30% from gear and another +50% from composure for 1.50 * 1.30 = 1.95 or 95% duration bonus. 195% duration is less then 300% duration by a fairly large margin. Hyperbole doesn't help your case.

Now to the real problem with using duration bonus, all except the feet and head are replaced by +enh skill items. Body / Legs / Hands are all +15 (hands +18) for a total of 48 skill. Thus for max potency (500 skill) your looking at cape + boots for 30% and another +10% from two emp items. 1.30 * 1.10 = 1.43 or a 43% duration bonus.

For cycling haste your talking three to four (only on melees) haste's per 5:51 seconds, that isn't bad at all and represents a reasonable load from the 75 days. The problem is when you add on ~more~ stuff to the top of those hastes, spells that you won't be using full duration on. Temper is 3min and +1% per 10 skill, Gain-STR is also 3min and +1 per 20 skill. That means 4:17 duration on both Gain-STR and Temper if cast on another party member. Now your casting load is six to eight spells per 4:17 and another three to four per 5:51 seconds. Temper has a long recast, as does Haste. Gain-STR has a relatively short recast but it almost as long as haste for cast time.

Congrats you just turned RDM into a buff monkey doing nearly twice as much cycling as it did at 75.

None of this is an issue when self-cast due to the 3.9x duration bonus making all three of those an 11:42 duration buff along with Enspell.

It would be like a BRD casting marchs individually on each party member.

Now take your foot out of your mouth Oph.

[saevel]

If he could give me +25 STR, +20% DA, and more potent Cure 3/4s, my mule would come RDM a lot more often and would be a lot more useful when he came. I have to imagine this would be the case in any old-content event, where you're typically would take increased killspeed over WHM's defensive advantages/Cure V+VI/etc.

There is a reason it's your mule and not an actual player. Boring and mind numbing doesn't even begin to describe cycles, not to mention the sheer amount of abuse you receive from other players.

More Single-Target spells to cycle is something asked for by people who don't actually intend to play RDM as a main job. It sounds great until it becomes your responsibility to hit the same four macros over and over again for 1~3 hours with small breaks in between sets. BRD's can at least watch TV or do other things in between their songs, RDM's have to keep pressing the buttons and staring at a timer slowly going down till they hit the next button. Cycles are single handily responsible for burning out all your old school RDM's, it becomes so mind numbing that you simply cease to enjoy it and it turns into a job and not entertainment. Over a period of several months to several years the player will move on to another job that offers more interactive entertainment. I moved to SAM / WAR / BLU and eventually PLD / DRK to get away from the cycles of RDM.

Simplest solution would be to remove Gain-XXX from the game and replace them with Boost-STR for both RDM and WHM.

You won't ever get Temper in its current form, SE set it aside as a melee buff for RDM not everyone else. SE would nerf the living hell out of it before they'd let the RDM give other people that much +DA. COR's at least have to sacrifice a roll and have it semi-random to do that, RDM's would stack with everything else in the game.

[Duelle]

Congrats you just turned RDM into a buff monkey doing nearly twice as much cycling as it did at 75.Seconded. We'd be taking steps backwards instead of forwards.

Red Mage would be relevant again as a healer for old content/meleeburns!

Or we could just fix RDM's native enhancing magic and let them target other players.In other words, more of the same crap we've had for years instead of something new. Not interested.

[Neisan_Quetz]

ITT: I'd rather be useless at everything than useful at something.

Boring and mind numbing is how many of the playerbase feels about Whm, that doesn't change its usefulness.

[saevel]

ITT: I'd rather be useless at everything than useful at something.

Except it's not useless at everything, it's just not the best at anything.

BIG difference between those two concepts.

And even then, should RDM be able to target it's unique buffs, BRD and COR would still be better enhances, so even then RDM would still be not the best.

Thus your logic means you'd take a RDM who was not the best at buffing, but not take a RDM who was not the best in any other category? Seems to be rather self serving logic, especially as you won't be the RDM forced into the cycles and being yelled at should something overly bad happen.

[Neisan_Quetz]

If you can't warrant bringing the job, then yes it is pretty useless.

Rdm shouldn't be a better enhancer than brd and cor, but it should be better than having the actual useful buffs self target. Emp+2 was a step in the right direction, but there is no reason why buffs can't have longer base durations and be single target castable.

[saevel]

If you can't warrant bringing the job, then yes it is pretty useless.

Rdm shouldn't be a better enhancer than brd and cor, but it should be better than having the actual useful buffs self target. Emp+2 was a step in the right direction, but there is no reason why buffs can't have longer base durations and be single target castable.

So you'd be willing to take subpar enhancer but not subpar at anything else?

And yes there is a big reason, because SE says so. Temper is a RDM melee buff plain and simple, whatever you think about RDM's melee component, Temper is for that specifically. I would prefer Temper to be accessionable similar to how Phalanx works, but SE shot that idea down cold.

Gain-Stat buffs are the RDM version of WHM's party buffs. We already have a precedent for them, the Barelement spells. Each one is a different element, MP cost is the same between RDM and WHM, WHM get's aoe while RDM gets self-target. Seeing as SE already has a party castable version, they won't be making RDM's target-able anytime soon. Barelement spells are still self only (Accession works). Again I asked for this to be made Accessionable and SE said hell no. If SE won't allow them to be accessionable then why would they allow them to be single targetable? Both would have the exact same result just one method is more painful and mind numbing then the other.

There are things SE needs to do to fix the job, they already announced their going to attempt to fix enfeebles. Why on earth would you want to reply the hell that was 75 cycle whore? Better to not play it at all then to play that again, this sentiment isn't just me but the moan of thousands of my predecessors.

And ultimately, SE themselves said what they planned on RDM becoming. It had absolutely nothing to do with buffing party members and everything to do with buffing themselves and debuffing the target monster. At least if you can get the JP statement translated.

[saevel]

The funny thing is your about to make a comment about RDM's "single target-able buffs" stacking with BRD and COR and that somehow makes them more useful. Yet RDM's nukes while inferior to BLM do stack with BLM's. RDM's melee while inferior to WAR / SAM / ect.. does stack with them.

I would go so far as to say RDM's nuking / meleeing stacks better with BLM / DD's then their buffs do with COR / BRD. 25 extra STR and 20% extra DA is nothing compared to what those other two can do. Its not even half what double march's can do nor what DRK / WAR / SAM or Misers (until recent nerfage) can do.

[Neisan_Quetz]

The heck, must have forgot to hit reply.

Nice argument their chief, because Brd can't also melee if they wanted to... That isn't somehow unique to Rdm.
25 str and 20% DA on Rdm just stops it from being the worst melee job after Blm and Smn.


'Because SE says so' does not make their remark absolute. Single target would make Temper actually useful for situations you would want to bring a Rdm. Right now you could skip the spell and it wouldn't make a lick of difference to the job's situation or its usefulness in many situations. And if you haven't realized Libri parties are a thing of the past so no 2007 isn't going to repeat itself. Refresh isn't a necessity and cycles don't really exist to the extent of having to haste 3-4 DD and having it wear 3mins later per cast refresh self and/or another mage etc. Heaven forbid the Rdm have to cast spells to help its allies.

[saevel]

The heck, must have forgot to hit reply.

Nice argument their chief, because Brd can't also melee if they wanted to... That isn't somehow unique to Rdm.
25 str and 20% DA on Rdm just stops it from being the worst melee job after Blm and Smn.


'Because SE says so' does not make their remark absolute. Single target would make Temper actually useful for situations you would want to bring a Rdm. Right now you could skip the spell and it wouldn't make a lick of difference to the job's situation or its usefulness in many situations. And if you haven't realized Libri parties are a thing of the past so no 2007 isn't going to repeat itself. Refresh isn't a necessity and cycles don't really exist to the extent of having to haste 3-4 DD and having it wear 3mins later per cast refresh self and/or another mage etc. Heaven forbid the Rdm have to cast spells to help its allies.

Actually BRD's can if they want, just more chose not to, they were a huge discussion about it a few years back. Four songs leave's enough time to melee for whatever that's worth. Anyhow that's irrevelent because your talking about RDM/SCH doing main healing + cycling on 3~4 meles with a BRD in a DD pt. I know it, you know it, lets not pretend otherwise. You are talking ~exactly~ what RDM used to do in 2007, verbatim. Your "usefulness" is just Haste + Temper + Gain-STR + Cure IV, which is actually more cycles then Haste + Cure IV.

At least Byrth had the integrity to say exactly why he wanted RDM to have those buffs, so his mule could buff him more.

The whole melee job reference is lol, now I remember why I had you on ignore.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Yes, back in 2007. Please check the date because it appears you missed the last 5 years.

What you can't admit is you don't want to see the job useful unless you can swing a stick and be subpar melee number 16, that's why all your arguments about cycles and buffs sucking are still stuck in the TaU mentality for pink bird parties. Wake the fuck up because the rest of the game has moved on.

[Fupafighter]

Need to readd content that rdm has use to solo with super buffs and kiting lol. Make them have fun again. Or give them more buffs so they can tank again!!

[Duelle]

Or give them more buffs so they can tank again!Meh, a proper tanking model (would love to have Flash on RDM, for starters) would probably work better.

[Septimus]

Yes, back in 2007. Please check the date because it appears you missed the last 5 years.

What you can't admit is you don't want to see the job useful unless you can swing a stick and be subpar melee number 16, that's why all your arguments about cycles and buffs sucking are still stuck in the TaU mentality for pink bird parties. Wake the fuck up because the rest of the game has moved on.

I think that RDM melee is terribad and laughable, but if they tried to turn the job back into spell cycles again I would de-level RDM to 50 immediately. I had enough of that garbage from 2003 through 2009, I don't want to do that ever again. I would prefer to have the job useless than to have to go back to the bad old days of that mechanical grind, we weren't treated like humans, we were treated like buff vending machines.

Memories from several years of 3 and a half hour dynamis runs solely casting refresh and haste on 6 black mages, awesome.

[Neisan_Quetz]

There really aren't a lot of buffs Rdm even has to cast on others anymore, and with Emp+2 set bonus all of them have extended duration. Even for a blm party they can haste and refresh themselves now, and Refresh lasts almost double the duration it did back then. If the base duration was increased I really don't see the problem especially adding in Emp+2 to an increased base duration.

Or maybe I'm the only one who found time to do more than just cast 2 spells, 3 counting a cure.

[Ophannus]

Reason why they said we can't accession Temper or enspell2's is because the only spells that can be Accessioned are spells that SCH can cast or spells that SCH can cast with a sub under 49. Don't think there's any spells that another job can Accession that SCH doesn't have access to with a sub or addendum.

[saevel]

Reason why they said we can't accession Temper or enspell2's is because the only spells that can be Accessioned are spells that SCH can cast or spells that SCH can cast with a sub under 49. Don't think there's any spells that another job can Accession that SCH doesn't have access to with a sub or addendum.

Nope SE said it themselves in reply to my thread a few months ago. SE see's RDM as a master enfeebler and gives us single target / self enhancements. They see WHM as the group enhancer for white magic and will give them aoe enhancing magic. We can't single target Temper / Gain-stat spells for the same reason we can't single target, Barblizzard, Enblizzard, Enblizzard II, Stoneskin, Phalanx, and Ice Spikes. The most we could of hoped for was accession to work or SE to create a watered down "Temper II" ala "Phalanx II".

The whole "accession only SCH/something spells" is nonsense, SCH/WHM (now /RDM) can cast haste, they can not accession haste. And before the "hastega already blah" you can accession barspells and aoe barspells exist as well as protect / shell.

[Byrth]

Man, if you guys hated RDM's real role at 75, why did you play it?

[saevel]

Man, if you guys hated RDM's real role at 75, why did you play it?

That's the point, we stopped playing it. Every single RDM I've knew from that era got burnt out on cycles and moved on to another job. It' wasn't a "real role" is was something that was forced on RDM's due to them being able to Cure IV and buff people just enough. If you want to get an idea for what it is, get four of your friends and your mule into a single party. Now cast Haste on each one of them and sit there. Do that for 30 min straight and tell us how exciting it is.

What your suggesting would be worse then that. Go on BRD and single target cycle two etudes one every party member for 30 min and see how it feels. After one hour your ready to just turn off the PC and go play something else.

[Neisan_Quetz]

What were you expecting to do joining a party then, be a 'mystical swordsman' the party is instantly going to accept no matter how subpar it was?

You got tired of cycles, well congratulations, there's enough alternatives now that you're hardly casting any.

[cidbahamut]

/tinfoil hat
Right on schedule.

[SpankWustler]

That's the point, we stopped playing it.

And now, so has everyone unless Refresh II or a handful of unique Voidwatch procs are needed.

The job's current lore is "This mystical AFKsman wields the Heavy Metal Plates in his bazaar with a heavy heart. His selection of Forgotten Touches inspires dirty jokes across Vana'diel. His hat is very red indeed."

[Duelle]

What were you expecting to do joining a party then, be a 'mystical swordsman' the party is instantly going to accept no matter how subpar it was?If that's the case, then you fix the job to where it is no longer subpar in that aspect and go from there.

I mean, I get some want a reason to always be brought to events, and it's much easier when all you have to compete against is Bard and Corsair instead of the melee jobs in this game. Not all of us look at things that way, though.

[Byrth]

Until SE starts making debuffs both land AND matter AND makes events rely on mitigating/reducing rather than negating damage, I don't think RDM will have a real place in "serious" endgame events.

Slow II - CSB, melee attacks don't kill anyone unless their healers are horrible.
Paralyze II - See Slow II, but slightly more relevant because sometimes it might paralyze spells if the potency didn't seemed nerfed to crap on everything important. Rex only has 89 MND, which means most RDMs are crapping all over him in terms of dMND in their Paralyze II sets with Bravers, but I still don't see many Paralyze II procs on his spells.
Addle- Relevance of this spell is still pretty unclear. I guess it might be nice in voidwatch if it wasn't a proc that doesn't stack with itself/Nocturne.
Bio III- More useful than adding 5% Defense (compared to Bio II) and this one has uncapped D/Tick. Take from it what you will.
Dia III- Probably RDM's most useful enfeebling magic, offering -5% defense more than Dia II.
Gravity II- Would be useful for kite-nuking if nothing built resistance and kite-nuking was a reasonable strategy for anything.
Silence- Stun is the only useful magic that's allowed to proc on high level content sometimes. Silence isn't Stun
Sleep- See Silence. Sleep isn't Stun either.

For "big game" I think RDM has a lot further to go than it would against "light game" like old content stuff. Its enhancing magic alone would be sufficient to punt WHM from lowman parties. I don't mean to enrage the "fiting" spirit of the melee RDM here, but RDM melee is (in my opinion) best against "light game" kind of things anyway. I know plenty of people that use WHM/DNC as a healer in Dynamis. With these changes, they'd swap to RDM/DNC for sure. You keep the ability to remove statuses (Healing Waltz) and gain 20% DA for both your characters.

[Neisan_Quetz]

If that's the case, then you fix the job to where it is no longer subpar in that aspect and go from there.

I mean, I get some want a reason to always be brought to events, and it's much easier when all you have to compete against is Bard and Corsair instead of the melee jobs in this game. Not all of us look at things that way, though.

If you can't see why this game won't allow Rdm's melee to be that much better than it currently is short of native dual wield, I don't know what to say.

I doubt Rdm would even get that much (there's nothing really wrong with Rdm's melee from the perspective of it being a mage job. It was never anything more than just about decent with access to high level swords, which FFXI portrayed fairly well). Or either gaining a native Stun or Break actually landing on NMs (although this would help Blm abit more imo).

[saevel]

Until SE starts making debuffs both land AND matter AND makes events rely on mitigating/reducing rather than negating damage, I don't think RDM will have a real place in "serious" endgame events.

Slow II - CSB, melee attacks don't kill anyone unless their healers are horrible.
Paralyze II - See Slow II, but slightly more relevant because sometimes it might paralyze spells if the potency didn't seemed nerfed to crap on everything important. Rex only has 89 MND, which means most RDMs are crapping all over him in terms of dMND in their Paralyze II sets with Bravers, but I still don't see many Paralyze II procs on his spells.
Addle- Relevance of this spell is still pretty unclear. I guess it might be nice in voidwatch if it wasn't a proc that doesn't stack with itself/Nocturne.
Bio III- More useful than adding 5% Defense (compared to Bio II) and this one has uncapped D/Tick. Take from it what you will.
Dia III- Probably RDM's most useful enfeebling magic, offering -5% defense more than Dia II.
Gravity II- Would be useful for kite-nuking if nothing built resistance and kite-nuking was a reasonable strategy for anything.
Silence- Stun is the only useful magic that's allowed to proc on high level content sometimes. Silence isn't Stun
Sleep- See Silence. Sleep isn't Stun either.

For "big game" I think RDM has a lot further to go than it would against "light game" like old content stuff. Its enhancing magic alone would be sufficient to punt WHM from lowman parties. I don't mean to enrage the "fiting" spirit of the melee RDM here, but RDM melee is (in my opinion) best against "light game" kind of things anyway. I know plenty of people that use WHM/DNC as a healer in Dynamis. With these changes, they'd swap to RDM/DNC for sure. You keep the ability to remove statuses (Healing Waltz) and gain 20% DA for both your characters.

Not so much "Pro-Melee" as "Pro-RDM", meaning I want to enjoy all the aspects, including melee builds. I have nuking, healing, INT enfeebling and MND enfeebling sets to go with my enhancing / FC / TP / WS sets. I talk about Melee RDM because it's the least represented in the game right now, what the "Mage onry" people are going through with the Abyssea / Post Abyssea era is the exact same as the Melee side has been going through since 2004.

I mostly agree with your position, there is a phrase for it "melee on fodder, mage on boss" which is all the "Pro Melee" RDMs want. We're not asking to be swinging like a SAM / WAR / MNK on Rex, but we need more then the people like NQ want (absolutely no melee buffs, only mage buffs). Of course this invites the question, where exactly is the line between "heavy" and "light" end-game content? It tends to be fuzzy and get redefined to suite the agenda of those involved. People in the anti-melee camp swear anything above a level 0 bunny is "heavy", where as you have people who want to melee on everything under the sun. For supporting points people will use "TP Feed", "AoEs" and it's brother "using healers MP" to justify a RDM sitting the back line with a staff shoved where the sun don't shine. Never mind that all three of those were debunked back in 07.

I once asked the anti-melee people to provide a benchmark or standard that a RDM must surpass to be "allowed" to melee? They have to provide one that didn't involve main healing (support healing is fine). They like to say how "bad" RDM's melee capability is yet every day you me and everyone else here witness's absolute crap DD's, some even have Emps and don't blink when they fight. When do we draw a line and say "on this you can melee, on this you can't" so on and so forth.

It seems people really are more focused on making the absolute bestest best setups for things, when that really just cuts out half the jobs in the game, then in players actually enjoying themselves.

[Byrth]

I think if your RDM isn't meleeing in something like Dynamis coin-farming, Salvage, Limbus, etc. then the job is not being used to its full potential. The same is true of White Mage, really. Unless there is an AoE that might give you a status that interfere with your magely duties, then it is probably fine to melee.

In Salvage, my RDM mule just sits there and casts Cure IV about once a minute while I kill a big Fomor train in Powderkeg's room. It wouldn't undoubtably help my killspeed if he was a real player and could just melee with me. There's no real danger in him being enfeebled. They can't even use TP moves without a Devilet. That said, would I want him meleeing a Devilet with me in the same room? Not unless he's prepared to burn Echo Drops. My mule lives on a very tight Echo Drop budget, but he also doesn't have a melee build (or sword skill over the 75 cap). A good RDM could probably melee their way through salvage alongside me.

RDM melee isn't really good with AoEs that give Paralyze, Silence, Petrification, Sleep, do a substantial amount of damage, give strong Slow, or in situations where you have to heal so much damage that there's almost no point in equipping swords because all you're really doing is spamming cure.

For instance, would I take a melee RDM to fight Nightmare Tigers in Abyssea - Qufim? No, I would not. If I am solo, they probably won't get to TP before they die. With a melee RDM, they probably will, and he'll have twice as many targets to remove Paralyze from if it does happen.

[saevel]

RDM melee isn't really good with AoEs that give Paralyze, Silence, Petrification, Sleep, do a substantial amount of damage, give strong Slow, or in situations where you have to heal so much damage that there's almost no point in equipping swords because all you're really doing is spamming cure.

Paralyze = depends, it effects RDM the same as everyone else.
Silence = Bring echo's
Petrification = See Paralyze
Sleep = See petrification
Damage = RDM actually take less damage then full DD's do, thanks in part to MDB and Stoneskin / Phalanx / Barspells. If it's enough damage to warrant a RDM not meleeing, then it's enough to warrant everyone else standing back.
Slow = effects us the same as everyone else.

Excess Curing = You need to be in the back period if your healing enough to warrant this. If a RDM is main healing, or healing enough to be considered "main healing" then they need to stay their happy arses in the back. Tossing out emergency Cure IV's is one thing, spamming it is something entirely different.

So of all the status effects it boils down to para / petri / sleep as the only remotely dangerous ones. It effects the RDM the same as DNC / THF / BLU / WAR / SAM / MNK / ect. This is where it really becomes situational, what casting load is the RDM under? Enfeebles don't need to be spammed, you cast it and move on. So we're left with haste cycles and Cure IV support. If your the only one with haste then your probably main healing and need to sit your happy arse in the back. Then there is the third option, procing (RDM/SCH with the BLMs in voidwatch T6 ect.), in which case you absolutely shouldn't be meleeing and instead focusing on hitting procs with the BLMs.

So we got three roles
Main Healer (healing + haste cycles) = Back Line
Enfeebling / Damage / Support Healer = Front Line
Procing on heavy NMs = Back Line

We're just asking for even buffs across all three.

*Note*
I'm speaking about 6-man or more style content. Douing / Trioing / Low manning things really depends on the situation and relative danger.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Except there are monsters you don't want to melee on a mage job that you still want DDs on. If you can't figure out why Idk what to say.

[Duelle]

Until SE starts making debuffs both land AND matterDebuffs are a little more complicated than that. Dia and Bio should stack. Slow should probably have a secondary or blanket effect if you want to make it matter a little more (of course, knowing the devs this would mean Slow would also have that effect when player characters receive the debuff). Addle could gain a potency boost on targets that are also affected by Slow if you want to play off the secondary effect bit.

Gravity II- Would be useful for kite-nuking if nothing built resistance and kite-nuking was a reasonable strategy for anything.Which may open the doors to the idiotic boss-soloing we saw many years ago, AKA the thing that gave Red Mages a VERY bad name.

AND makes events rely on mitigating/reducing rather than negating damageConsidering this game has been mostly about avoiding damage altogether (see: Utsusemi, Chainspell-Stun, Headbutt Spam), I don't see how you could bring in mitigation-based encounters without forcing the devs to a) fix defense, b) rescale mob attack, and c) come up with actual encounters with mechanics that make it possible to mitigate incoming damage through proper use of abilities. A couple of years ago I would have included "Nerf Utsusemi", but I'm not sure on that one now. There's also the issue of -PDT being tossed around like candy.

I doubt Rdm would even get that muchAccess to more melee gear and access to better WS would be a nice place to start. An AF set that focuses on front-line combat would also be nice. Now whether Tanaka is willing to give us that...

there's nothing really wrong with Rdm's melee from the perspective of it being a mage job. It was never anything more than just about decent with access to high level swords, which FFXI portrayed fairly wellAnd it works differently than in console RPGs because console FFs have the player calling the shots, meaning you could make a party with 4 white mages and go to town and no one would be there to oppose you. That's not how MMOs work because its not just one person calling the shots.

From a design standpoint, the mediocre guy doesn't get far in MMO's because he's not useful at anything, which is what some Red Mages are seeing right now. Instead of wanting to go back to where we were at 75, some of us just want to go in a different direction with our favorite job. Both sides of the debate should be getting equal treatment and be given the same consideration, but that hasn't been the case.

[saevel]

RDM's "melee" component only needs better / more gear options, Req fills out the "better WS" part. Moten has it on par with Vorpal and exceeding it with enough MND gear. fTP effects all hits on Req so your looking at a 6.0fTP WS (7.2 with off hand) 100% MND -20% attack WS. CDC is better but 5/5 Req is sufficient until you get an Almace.

RDM is exactly 66% "mage" and 33% "melee". Or in MMO terms its 0% tank (now) 33% healer and 66% DD (50% Magic 50% Melee). In FFXI terms its one third WHM, one third BLM and one third WAR. No matter how you cut it, the job deserves it's melee component, it's what defines Red Mage as a job. Right now "end game" is limited to Voidwatch, Abyssea and neo-Nyzule. None of those are particularly suitable for a hybrid job. There is also neo-Dynamis with ADL and PW pop set building, these events cater to a hybrid RDM. Actual ADL is a crap shoot and basically relies on PD spam with mules, PW is a bit more spamable now that zeni has been fixed.

One SE fix's (if they do) enfeebles then that opens an actual reason to bring a Hybrid RDM over another "generic DD".

[SpankWustler]

Paralyze = depends, it effects RDM the same as everyone else.
Silence = Bring echo's
Petrification = See Paralyze
Sleep = See petrification
Damage = RDM actually take less damage then full DD's do, thanks in part to MDB and Stoneskin / Phalanx / Barspells. If it's enough damage to warrant a RDM not meleeing, then it's enough to warrant everyone else standing back.
Slow = effects us the same as everyone else.

Excess Curing = You need to be in the back period if your healing enough to warrant this. If a RDM is main healing, or healing enough to be considered "main healing" then they need to stay their happy arses in the back. Tossing out emergency Cure IV's is one thing, spamming it is something entirely different.

So of all the status effects it boils down to para / petri / sleep as the only remotely dangerous ones. It effects the RDM the same as DNC / THF / BLU / WAR / SAM / MNK / ect.

This doesn't really address the "opportunity cost" of not engaging something or that somebody has to engage the monster in order to make it stop being alive.

A Warrior or Monk who doesn't engage something might as well be a decorative water fixture at that moment. You don't need to cure the 1/100 model of Splash Mountain but it's not doing anything for anybody either.

A Red Mage who doesn't engage something is comparable to a relatively far more useful water fixture. Like a toilet with a built-in bidet or something. The Red Bidet still has access to it's full array of spells, and in fact, can use them better in this state by taking advantage of Magian staves. Also, it can squirt water that is always too hot or too cold but never just right.

Meleeing stuff on mage jobs definitely has value, to the extent that I consider making a melee-friendly macro set for my White Mage at least every other month and then remember I'm at 75/80 inventory already, but it's not the same thing as hitting something on a job that only has value when it's hitting something.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Not to mention support jobs can you know heal/support the frontline to keep them alive. Having your support get silenced/para'd/Petrified/Slept constantly is typically just asking to invite disaster.

And if we're 1/3 Blm as you claim can we get native Stun? Cause that would be totally nice. Doesn't even break the 'no Aoe Spells not diaga' rule.

[ManaKing]

I would love some native stun. A better debuff than enfeebles because it can actually stop a spell or TP move.

[Duelle]

I would love some native stun. A better debuff than enfeebles because it can actually stop a spell or TP move.I'm more in favor of Flash. That's a spell we used to have.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I'm more in favor of Flash. That's a spell we used to have.

If we got Flash we should also get Stun, as they are the two spells for PLD and DRK.

[cidbahamut]

I mostly agree with your position, there is a phrase for it "melee on fodder, mage on boss" which is all the "Pro Melee" RDMs want.

This contradicts your previous stance of it being perfectly fine to go RDM/DRK and wail on Voidwatch bosses with your Almace, so you'll forgive me if I find this statement to be disingenuous.

[tyrantsyn]

Why should any Dev ever take anything seriously coming out of any RDM thread. No suggestion are ever overwhelming like by the community. Most thread's never seeing even double digit's on the like column's for idea's. And even more so, are always derail by the same few ppl about rdm melee. That end up spewing the same crap they been spewing since day 1. Which to be honest seems to be the only thing that keeps ppl posting in them anyways. My case and point is this thread, which started off as a new spell idea has pretty much has become the same crap we have in 20 other thread's. Nothing on topic and basically has become a your wrong thread, look what they've done to my favorite job, "why they no listen to me"

SE adjusting enfeebling magic and the verdict is still out on that one. So the focus should be falling to enhancing magic til we get some more input on the adjustments. If RDM melee is your thing, like I said before go make a thread about it. And be passionate about it there. And leave these other thread's to die if no one can get on board with them.

[cidbahamut]

Alternatively we could all just report melee posts for being off-topic. I'm pretty sure that's covered under most standard forum rules these days. I think I'll start doing that, because it's not like we don't have several dozen threads devoted to discussing Red Mage melee already.

Edit: Yup, it's actually the first thing listed in the forum rules: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/117-Welcome-to-Forum-General-Discussion!

[Duelle]

Why should any Dev ever take anything seriously coming out of any RDM thread. No suggestion are ever overwhelming like by the community. Most thread's never seeing even double digit's on the like column's for idea's.That's because instead of allowing both camps to play their way, the devs lean towards one and the other is neglected. When the other is neglected, it doesn't play up to par in party play (AKA the very thing FFXI was designed around). Then it snowballs and creates things like lolmelee and refreshbot.

And even more so, are always derail by the same few ppl about rdm melee.Except that when we make melee threads, it's somehow alright to have the same trolls and naysayers invade our threads and tell us to shut up and embrace party support. Goes with that saying about people in glass houses and all.

[SpankWustler]

That's because instead of allowing both camps to play their way, the devs lean towards one and the other is neglected. When the other is neglected, it doesn't play up to par in party play (AKA the very thing FFXI was designed around). Then it snowballs and creates things like lolmelee and refreshbot.

Since the level cap increases began, the Development Bros have given Red Mage the same amount of near-nothing whether you want to hit things or not.

The addition of Almace and Magian staves, the two largest improvements the job has gotten going from 75 to 99, seems like an even break to me.

Temper but few new pieces of melee equipment. Given how Dynamis works now, how much content involves monsters we are now 10+ levels above, and that Campaign is actually profitable; there are more places for a mage to melee productively than ever. So, why not add some more equipment for that vile task?

Awesome abilities and bonuses to use with Enhancing and Enfeebling spells yet no amazing new spells to use them on. Where's a super-duper powerful enhancing spell that would require +95% duration to be maintained full-time on one person? Where's a new enfeebling spell that isn't Addle and doesn't suck?

Red Mage would benefit a lot from the kind of examination that White Mage, Black Mage, and Scholar have received recently. The job is not the magical powerhouse it was in 2006. It's more of an outhouse with moderately enchanted toilet paper.

[tyrantsyn]

That's because instead of allowing both camps to play their way, the devs lean towards one and the other is neglected. When the other is neglected, it doesn't play up to par in party play (AKA the very thing FFXI was designed around). Then it snowballs and creates things like lolmelee and refreshbot.
Except that when we make melee threads, it's somehow alright to have the same trolls and naysayers invade our threads and tell us to shut up and embrace party support. Goes with that saying about people in glass houses and all.

Title of thread : New enhancing spell for RDM to promote party support

I don't knock RDM melee, I enjoy it, I use it in Dynamis, Campaign, and farming or when ever the feeling strikes me. What I said is that it didn't have it's place here. I'm not saying anything else about this.

In a game base around party support, RDM is too selfish of a job in it's current state. It's spell list needs to be reviewed and have some of this self targeted only spell changed over to single targeted spell's. It seems a little silly to me that bar spells whether self targeted or aoe both share the same amount of potency and are only base on the casters enhancing magic skill. The same goes for the gain and boost line spell's. It further bother's me because we were told in another thread (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/19419-To-the-devs%21?p=271699#post271699) that because of the way the haste spell is, that it could not be made accesssion~able do to the fact that it was create as a single targeted spell and as a aoe would be to powerful. So why is it that bar/bar~ra/gain/boost line spells all share the same potency? Shouldn't this be adjusted as well in the line of thinking with the haste spell potency?

[Duelle]

Title of thread : New enhancing spell for RDM to promote party support

I don't knock RDM melee, I enjoy it, I use it in Dynamis, Campaign, and farming or when ever the feeling strikes me. What I said is that it didn't have it's place here.Just like gems like "ask for something 'useful' instead of buffs for lolmelee" did not belong in the melee thread(s). It's nothing to get bent out of shape over, again going back to the saying about people in glass houses. Either way, since you're dropping the subject, so will I.

In a game base around party support, RDM is too selfish of a job in it's current state. It's spell list needs to be reviewed and have some of this self targeted only spell changed over to single targeted spell's.All that does is try to turn Red Mage into Oracle or Green Mage.

It seems a little silly to me that bar spells whether self targeted or aoe both share the same amount of potency and are only base on the casters enhancing magic skill. The same goes for the gain and boost line spell's.Since I'm at work, I can't pull up the Japanese concept, but RDM's manifesto clearly includes self-buffing. The guy that translated that to English for some reason decided to replace that with the "buffs allies to demigods" nonsense. I don't know if he was taking creative liberties with interpretation or something. The self-buffs the job possesses is par the course for RDM, believe it or not.

[hideka]

ITT: I'd rather be useless at everything than useful at something.

Boring and mind numbing is how many of the playerbase feels about Whm, that doesn't change its usefulness.

yea? dunno if you know, but about 50% of the active whm population these days are bots, not players, since its easier to grind a bot up in abyssea and have it follow you arround so that you dont have to pull someones teeth out of their heads to play whitemage. and proramming a timed script that auto rebuffs everyone for a RDM mule is freakin childs play, any C+ novice kid could code that out, and since its all client side scripting, GMs really cant prove that the person is Scripting, since if they decided they wanted to take a peek at your PCs processes, theyd be signing your check for an invasion of privacy settlement the same day.

[SpankWustler]

yea? dunno if you know, but about 50% of the active whm population these days are bots, not players, since its easier to grind a bot up in abyssea and have it follow you arround so that you dont have to pull someones teeth out of their heads to play whitemage. and proramming a timed script that auto rebuffs everyone for a RDM mule is freakin childs play, any C+ novice kid could code that out, and since its all client side scripting, GMs really cant prove that the person is Scripting, since if they decided they wanted to take a peek at your PCs processes, theyd be signing your check for an invasion of privacy settlement the same day.

This has more to do with the necessity or utility of having a pocket White Mage than the simplicity of the job. I think so many people being inclined to pay thirteen extra bucks a month and mess with two characters at once in order to always have access to an often-mediocre White Mage is a profound testament to how awesome the job is.

Honestly, outside of switching into -% Damage Taken sets and engaging new enemies, every job in FFXI could run using a script and perform far better than the worst players opt to play that job.

[saevel]

The guy who started the thread isn't even a RDM, doesn't play the job and never intends to play the job. The fact he thought Composure allows us to cast triple duration buffs on other players demonstrates that quite well. The question was asked so that he could receive buffs to his other jobs.

RDM is not a buffing job, SE has come out and told us this, so stop trying to make it into one. In case nobody's been listening lately, SE is awfully stubborn about something once they've made their mind up. SE has no plans to turn RDM into BRD, COR or WHM. That RDM was used as a WHM replacement and went around soloing a bunch of stuff made SE hesitant to do anything with the job. Does the fact that RDM doesn't get a single cure nor party targetable buff past 48 not kinda nail that point home?

In the developers minds, to paraphrase the JP post, RDM's will buff themselves into demigod status while supporting the party by debuffing the monsters. Everything SE's done up to this point has been inline with that statement. The only issue is that enfeebles currently don't do much, so the "supporting party by debuffing" isn't working as imagined.

[saevel]

I forgot to comment on this gem of a line earlier.


'Because SE says so' does not make their remark absolute.

Yes it does actually, when the people who write the code that runs the game say something, that's about as absolute as you can get in a make believe video game. If SE said "the servers will turn off tomorrow" we could be reasonably certain that they would absolutely turn off tomorrow. If SE said they will not take your credit card payment info anymore, then you can be reasonably certain that if you were paying with a CC that it would no longer work. And later if SE said they would allow your to pay with a CC, then you can be reasonably certain that it would work again.

There is no higher power in this video game then SE themselves. No one to appeal to, no way to force them to do what you want them to do. So NQ, it seems your argument isn't with us but with SE themselves. And seeing as jokes are constantly being made about SE and their "Barance", I wish you well with your campaign to change the Devs mind. Hey if you work really hard you might succeed and they could change their mind like they did with VWNM and letting others have your R/EX drops, ... ohh wait ....

[Daniel_Hatcher]

The guy who started the thread isn't even a RDM, doesn't play the job and never intends to play the job. The fact he thought Composure allows us to cast triple duration buffs on other players demonstrates that quite well. The question was asked so that he could receive buffs to his other jobs.

RDM is not a buffing job, SE has come out and told us this, so stop trying to make it into one. In case nobody's been listening lately, SE is awfully stubborn about something once they've made their mind up. SE has no plans to turn RDM into BRD, COR or WHM. That RDM was used as a WHM replacement and went around soloing a bunch of stuff made SE hesitant to do anything with the job. Does the fact that RDM doesn't get a single cure nor party targetable buff past 48 not kinda nail that point home?

In the developers minds, to paraphrase the JP post, RDM's will buff themselves into demigod status while supporting the party by debuffing the monsters. Everything SE's done up to this point has been inline with that statement. The only issue is that enfeebles currently don't do much, so the "supporting party by debuffing" isn't working as imagined.

Enhancing isn't all that anyway, I'd hardly class 20% DA, 25 of one stat etc... as Demigod worthy.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I forgot to comment on this gem of a line earlier.



Yes it does actually, when the people who write the code that runs the game say something, that's about as absolute as you can get in a make believe video game. If SE said "the servers will turn off tomorrow" we could be reasonably certain that they would absolutely turn off tomorrow. If SE said they will not take your credit card payment info anymore, then you can be reasonably certain that if you were paying with a CC that it would no longer work. And later if SE said they would allow your to pay with a CC, then you can be reasonably certain that it would work again.

There is no higher power in this video game then SE themselves. No one to appeal to, no way to force them to do what you want them to do. So NQ, it seems your argument isn't with us but with SE themselves. And seeing as jokes are constantly being made about SE and their "Barance", I wish you well with your campaign to change the Devs mind. Hey if you work really hard you might succeed and they could change their mind like they did with VWNM and letting others have your R/EX drops, ... ohh wait ....

SE making bad design choices doesn't give them a 'get out of jail free' card to continue making poor design choices. You just sound like a SE apologist right now.

[SpankWustler]

Yes it does actually, when the people who write the code that runs the game say something, that's about as absolute as you can get in a make believe video game. If SE said "the servers will turn off tomorrow" we could be reasonably certain that they would absolutely turn off tomorrow. If SE said they will not take your credit card payment info anymore, then you can be reasonably certain that if you were paying with a CC that it would no longer work. And later if SE said they would allow your to pay with a CC, then you can be reasonably certain that it would work again.

There is no higher power in this video game then SE themselves. No one to appeal to, no way to force them to do what you want them to do. So NQ, it seems your argument isn't with us but with SE themselves. And seeing as jokes are constantly being made about SE and their "Barance", I wish you well with your campaign to change the Devs mind. Hey if you work really hard you might succeed and they could change their mind like they did with VWNM and letting others have your R/EX drops, ... ohh wait ....

How much they believe in their own goals doesn't make those goals worthwhile, and particularly does not indicate their means of accomplishing those goals are effective.

Their vision for Red Mage sounds completely ridiculous compared to how the job actually functions. The English version also sounded completely ridiculous compared to how the job actually functions, of course, but at least it had an optimistic glow about it.

The Japanese version implies that they think +25 of a base statistic and Temper are super-duper useful and job-defining and that Slow and Paralyze are as helpful now as they were in 2006 (the English version also implied this, but it's still dumb). Which, while not the least bit surprising, remains depressing.

[Duelle]

Their vision for Red Mage sounds completely ridiculous compared to how the job actually functions.I'm guessing you're referring to the fact that SE designed it as a hybrid but some players are desperate to cram it into a healer/buffbot slot.

The English version also sounded completely ridiculous compared to how the job actually functions, of course, but at least it had an optimistic glow about it.I'll admit if someone had not brought it up we would have never realized it, but we were given a manifesto that was not properly translated.

The Japanese version implies that they think +25 of a base statistic and Temper are super-duper useful and job-definingWhich is still much better than the player-maintained misconception of Refresh, Haste, and Cures being super-duper and job-defining when it came to RDM.

and that Slow and Paralyze are as helpful now as they were in 2006This goes back to a discussion I once had with someone over how debuffs in Final Fantasy are either miniscule or OP by MMO standards. FF has too many debuffs that function as absolutes instead of being how debuffs usually are treated in MMOs. In any other game, Paralyze is OP. In any other game, Break is OP. Hell, even stuff like Silence is kept to a minimum because any longer would be pretty damn OP.

When your debuffs are on that threshold, you're going to keep their use at a minimum. In a way, the approach the devs have taken with mob design shows that the devs are aware of this too. Now whether this means enfeebles get redesigned (ideal) or slight modifications here and there to allow some but not all to be useful (what'll most likely end up happening), we'll have to wait and see.

[SpankWustler]

My point is simple.

A group of players wanting something does not make it useful. Even the Development Bros wanting something does not make it useful. Being relatively effective at making monsters die and die horribly or making players live and live well makes something useful.

Red Mage has a very good foundation for casting Enhancing magic between native Fast Cast and Composure with the Empyrean armor enhancement. Giving the job more support spells to build on that foundation would make the job more useful in all environments.

People could choose whether to use something new or not. People could even use new spells for their own benefit, perhaps even on themselves while meleeing in Dynamis or old content. Imagine that.

Something new and usable on others doesn't have to be cast on four or five people, either. It could mean an incredibly potent spell that can only be kept on one person full-time, and even then, only through the aid of Composure and the Empyrean set. Just, please, let the caster choose the person.

There's a huge area to explore that is neither "WHM-LITE, LESS FILLING MORE REDDENING MORE MAGIC DAMAGE TAKEN." nor "I AM THE FIFTH WORST MELEE AND I HATE CURE IV!" and it surely contains things that would be useful and would lend more uniqueness to Red Mage.

[saevel]

How much they believe in their own goals doesn't make those goals worthwhile, and particularly does not indicate their means of accomplishing those goals are effective.

Their vision for Red Mage sounds completely ridiculous compared to how the job actually functions. The English version also sounded completely ridiculous compared to how the job actually functions, of course, but at least it had an optimistic glow about it.

The Japanese version implies that they think +25 of a base statistic and Temper are super-duper useful and job-defining and that Slow and Paralyze are as helpful now as they were in 2006 (the English version also implied this, but it's still dumb). Which, while not the least bit surprising, remains depressing.

It's their game, they can do whatever they want to with it. And seeing how they've reacted, or failed to react, to player feedback before, we can all be pretty damn sure their gonna do whatever it is they want to do. Whether you think it's worthwhile or not has absolutely zero bearing on that point.

So tell me, how does the job "actually function"? You mean ... Haste ... Cure IV ... Haste ... Cure IV ... Haste ... Cure IV ... Silena ... Cure IV? Wow those are spells that haven't changed a single bit since ... level 48 and every other job in the game can do just as well. You've basically defined RDM as a sub only, congrats. We're just wanting there to be more then ... Cure IV ... Haste ... Cure IV .. Haste ... Cure IV ... "unnamed spell" ... Haste ... Cure IV ... Haste.

[SpankWustler]

It's their game, they can do whatever they want to with it. And seeing how they've reacted, or failed to react, to player feedback before, we can all be pretty damn sure their gonna do whatever it is they want to do. Whether you think it's worthwhile or not has absolutely zero bearing on that point.

This is true enough. I don't think saying "Hey, middle-aged Japanese dude, your vision is probably pointless and your attempts to achieve it are definitely falling short. Also, put on some pants and stop putting those pens up your nose." is actually going to change anything.


So tell me, how does the job "actually function"? You mean ... Haste ... Cure IV ... Haste ... Cure IV ... Haste ... Cure IV ... Silena ... Cure IV? Wow those are spells that haven't changed a single bit since ... level 48 and every other job in the game can do just as well. You've basically defined RDM as a sub only, congrats. We're just wanting there to be more then ... Cure IV ... Haste ... Cure IV .. Haste ... Cure IV ... "unnamed spell" ... Haste ... Cure IV ... Haste.

Cast Blizzard IV. Sleep stuff. Enfeeble stuff. And yeah, even melee when appropriate.

I do agree Red Mage has a lot of overlap with White Mage at the moment, probably even more than Scholar has with either job. I also think there are more far productive ways to differentiate the two than simply making Red Mage more less awful at hitting things with things.

[cidbahamut]

So tell me, how does the job "actually function"? You mean ... Haste ... Cure IV ... Haste ... Cure IV ... Haste ... Cure IV ... Silena ... Cure IV? Wow those are spells that haven't changed a single bit since ... level 48 and every other job in the game can do just as well. You've basically defined RDM as a sub only, congrats. We're just wanting there to be more then ... Cure IV ... Haste ... Cure IV .. Haste ... Cure IV ... "unnamed spell" ... Haste ... Cure IV ... Haste.

Stop using this line of rhetoric. You are a terrible player if that's all you do as a mage, and you should feel bad about it.

[Byrth]

I don't understand why a job has to be fun to be useful. Letting enhancing magic target other players doesn't mean you have to cast on them. You would still be free to only buff yourself, but you'd get kicked from the alliance for ignoring the obviously-more-valuable role you could be playing.

[Saiken253]

This is, however, a game and should be fun, no?

[Byrth]

Then play it however you find fun. :D (and subsequently get kicked from the alliance for being worthless)

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I don't understand why a job has to be fun to be useful. Letting enhancing magic target other players doesn't mean you have to cast on them. You would still be free to only buff yourself, but you'd get kicked from the alliance for ignoring the obviously-more-valuable role you could be playing.

Still the easiest thing SE can do is Aura effects, I know SE said no, but that doesn't change the fact. Single target buffs for upto 6 people was not and will never be fun. Whatever you want for RDM personally you will never get away from the enhancing concept.

But Hey, SE love to:

http://s16.postimage.org/vnwe8j7vl/head_in_the_sand.jpg

[saevel]

I don't understand why a job has to be fun to be useful. Letting enhancing magic target other players doesn't mean you have to cast on them. You would still be free to only buff yourself, but you'd get kicked from the alliance for ignoring the obviously-more-valuable role you could be playing.

Because it's a video game designed for entertainment. If I wanted to work then I'd stay at work, my time is valuable.

That attitude is exactly why most of the pre-Abyssea RDM's have moved on to other jobs, better to have playing SAM/WAR/MNK/~insert job here~ then to be harassed playing RDM. The job was turned into a way to get gear for your other job, similar to what happened to BRD.

As I said before, at least your honest, you want the buffs so your mule can make your MNK better and so you can force others to make you better.

[saevel]

Cast Blizzard IV. Sleep stuff. Enfeeble stuff. And yeah, even melee when appropriate.

I do agree Red Mage has a lot of overlap with White Mage at the moment, probably even more than Scholar has with either job. I also think there are more far productive ways to differentiate the two than simply making Red Mage more less awful at hitting things with things.

Except with how the above members vision the job you won't be casting Blizzard IV, you'll be casting Cure V, opps I mean Cure IV and three buffs per party member. Anything this would matter on is immune to sleep, gravity, bind, mostly immune to paralyze, and slow is only partially effective. The entire argument boils down to "Play a level 50 WHM with more MP".

For DH's comment about not getting away from "enhancing" I reply, what enhancing. The only buffs people every asked for was haste and refresh, that is the exact limit of "enhancing" two spells. It wasn't until SCH was made that RDM could actually put some of it's enhancing spells on others via the /SCH JA's. And to this day people still aren't answering me when I ask them if they want one of those buffs. And the absolute funniest part is how broke enspell 1's were due to their Mag.acc being on hit, so even if you aoe'd them everyone would be hitting for 1~3. SCH's complained and SE went out and changed Enspell 1s, not for RDM but for SCH.

You guys have this idea that RDM was somehow this party support job when it never was close. It had haste, cure IV and convert, which meant put together you could create a haste-cure-bot out of a player. It made it preferable for non-stop merit party's and nothing else. RDM's one HNM use was it's 2hr + stun, and this is when enfeebles actually landed on big NMs. There was a time when RDM could tank HNMs, but SE ended that. So please tell us exactly how RDM was an "enhancing job" and why we're all crazy for thinking it's not?

[Neisan_Quetz]

Then why the hell were you on Rdm if you weren't supporting the party at least part of the time? No, seriously, what the hell were you doing at 75 cap? Debuffs don't take a long time to apply and reapply. I wasn't a whm, but I sure as hell was helping to support the party. your notion of support only seems to apply to cor/brd buffs.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

For DH's comment about not getting away from "enhancing" I reply, what enhancing. The only buffs people every asked for was haste and refresh, that is the exact limit of "enhancing" two spells. It wasn't until SCH was made that RDM could actually put some of it's enhancing spells on others via the /SCH JA's. And to this day people still aren't answering me when I ask them if they want one of those buffs. And the absolute funniest part is how broke enspell 1's were due to their Mag.acc being on hit, so even if you aoe'd them everyone would be hitting for 1~3. SCH's complained and SE went out and changed Enspell 1s, not for RDM but for SCH.

Two spells that had the biggest impact, Refresh on mages Haste on Melee.

My opinion on RDM's other enhancing spells is clear, they should be able to be put on party members but I don't want Cycles back.

Like it or not it is the RDM's job to Haste and Refresh the party, if SE didn't want that they'd have done them self buffs only. I'm not telling you main heal but if you have a WHM there what is the issue with keeping Haste and Refresh up where needed? Save the WHM a job and help on MP.

As for the enspell thing I never said SE actually used their brain to think logically if they did then they'd just help with RDM keeping up it's (player picked) role while allowing time in between to do what you want, whether that be Melee or Nuking via Aura and longer duration naturally. This image will stay with RDM now, the same as Blink tanking with NIN when it wasn't originally designed that way... So rather than do nothing improve on that while keeping it's other roles possible.

[saevel]

Like it or not it is the RDM's job to Haste and Refresh the party, if SE didn't want that they'd have done them self buffs only. I'm not telling you main heal but if you have a WHM there what is the issue with keeping Haste and Refresh up where needed? Save the WHM a job and help on MP.

A BLU/RDM can now do the same thing, a BLM/RDM, BRD/RDM, WHM/RDM, SCH/RDM, SMN/RDM, even a DRK/RDM can do that just as well. You've fit the job into a sub. And more cycles are exactly what this thread is about, by people who have no intention of actually casting those cycles but instead want to make their mule or PUG player do it.

RDM was put into the "support" category back in 2003. Their "job" was to refresh the WHM, BLM and PLD. We didn't earn the name "refresh whore" for nothing. It wasn't until 2004 when the game was expanding and WHM's were rare that RDM's were asked to main heal. Post 41 a RDM with refresh and convert could keep themselves going almost indefinitely but it wasn't until 50 that a RDM could actually main heal on their own. And even then having just one RDM was too little for XP at that time. Post ToAU is when RDM as a "all in one party support B****" became a standard as players had figured out how important haste was and that march's and haste spells turned DD's into killing machines. It became a game of filling as much offensive power into as few slots as possible, there was no need for the WHM if a RDM could do the healing, and no need for a BLM in a melee TP burn. That was where your, and everyone else's idea of a "RDM's job" came from, ToAU bird parties. The job lacks the fundamental requirements to fit into any specialized roles, sub-par healing, sub-par nuking, sub-par melee and sub-par buffing. Or to put it another way, any "support" you want from a RDM could better be filled by a WHM or BRD. Heck a BRD/RDM can not only give you march's and ballads, they can give you Haste, Refresh and Cure IV.

SE gave RDM haste at 48 because it was a white magic spell, one WHM got at 40, its the same reason SE gave RDM's Sleep I / II, Tier III & IV nukes. The same reason they gave DRK's Tier II & III nukes. The only other target-able spell that is unique to RDM is refresh & refresh II. Now your "support job" argument is down to two spells that don't stack with each other and only restore MP.

[cidbahamut]

And more cycles are exactly what this thread is about, by people who have no intention of actually casting those cycles but instead want to make their mule or PUG player do it.

Stop saying this. It doesn't add anything to the conversation and isn't true. We know who frequents the Red Mage sub-forum because they actually bother to play Red Mage and these suggestions often come from those people. You know, people who actually play Red Mage. On their main account, and not as a mule. So please, stop tossing about this idea that anyone who suggests something you personally don't like is only doing it to beef up their pocket RDM mule, because let's be honest, those kinds of people all use pocket white mages.

[Zerich]

I've never seen a useful RDM in an aby pt. Even with an Almace, they are a waste of space. Prove. Me. Wrong.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I've never seen a useful RDM in an aby pt. Even with an Almace, they are a waste of space. Prove. Me. Wrong.

The same is true of SCH, DRK and many other jobs where Abyssea is concerned. Seriously, your post adds little to the topic, same with melee talk.

RDM will forever be ignored when topics on a set subject is always derailed.

Thank you and god bless.

[Zerich]

The same is true of SCH, DRK and many other jobs where Abyssea is concerned. Seriously, your post adds little to the topic, same with melee talk.

RDM will forever be ignored when topics on a set subject is always derailed.

Thank you and god bless.

cool story bro.

i was responding to the original topic, show me one rdm who can 1-2 shot a mob...

and you must be playing with some pretty gimp-tastic SCH's, if that's your POV.

sry i'm not like all the cool-kids, and post from a low level main job. Q_Q

[saevel]

cool story bro.

i was responding to the original topic, show me one rdm who can 1-2 shot a mob...

and you must be playing with some pretty gimp-tastic SCH's, if that's your POV.

sry i'm not like all the cool-kids, and post from a low level main job. Q_Q

I one shot mobs all the time in Abyssea <.< CDC is crit ya know. And depending what the definition of "two shot" is we can do that also with Nukes. Abyssea is kinda the land of big numbers, things work differently.

[Byrth]

RDM was my first 75. I played it for countless hours in stupid birds meripos, Salvage, Dynamis, other LS events etc. It wasn't particularly fun, but there was a certain satisfaction that I got from appropriately managing my MP so that I would finish burning through it exactly as Convert came back up. "Can I Dia III this monster, or should it be Dia II? What does my timer look like?" It was fun, but the kind of fun that I could get burned out on after a few hours.

RDM was also my best melee job for a long time, so I took it out farming stuff when I had to. My BLM was more efficient for chaining high level monsters (like Aura Statues for Diorites or Aw'Aerns for Ix'DRG/DRK), but my RDM was great for stuff like Hakutaku Eyes, scrolls, coffer keys, whatever. I had a pretty respectable melee TP/WS set for it at the time.

Did I waste time sitting there wishing SE would rewrite all the damage formulas or give me incredibly strong JAs/spells to compensate for the fact that my job had no compelling reason to be on the front line in a group? No, I didn't. My job had a use and was desired in a time when FFXI's endgame was very heavily driven by job stigmas and it wasn't nearly as easy to level/gear a new one as it is now.

Fast forwards 24 levels. My RDM is level 91 and I have leveled jobs from 50 to 99 before bringing it to an xp party. Why? Because even if I got it to 99, I wouldn't have a use for it. I don't need a mediocre melee to farm zone drops with anymore. I have Dancer. I don't need any of RDM's party advantages (if they exist). My mule has WHM for lowman and no one would ever ask me to go RDM to a real event because it just isn't very useful.

You want to be some kind of magey-meleey sword-swinging pimphat-wearing hobo that incorporates all of SE's poorly formed/translated ideas from the last 10 years, even though several of them have been assigned to since-created jobs or poorly implemented already? Well, good luck with that. Personally, I'd be happy if SE just gave me justification to level it to 99.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

cool story bro.

i was responding to the original topic, show me one rdm who can 1-2 shot a mob...

and you must be playing with some pretty gimp-tastic SCH's, if that's your POV.

sry i'm not like all the cool-kids, and post from a low level main job. Q_Q

Not quite, I just use only what's necessary and SCH inside Abyssea is a gimp. I suppose it's good if you go as a group 6+ but who does that in Abyssea.

PS. RDM can one shot with Tier IV's easily in Abyssea.... /rolleyes in Abyssea NIN probably could.

[saevel]

Not quite, I just use only what's necessary and SCH inside Abyssea is a gimp. I suppose it's good if you go as a group 6+ but who does that in Abyssea.

PS. RDM can one shit with Tier IV's easily in Abyssea.... /rolleyes in Abyssea NIN probably could.



I've never seen a useful RDM in an aby pt

I'm assuming she's (it) is talking about XP PTs due to the one shot references. Not even Ukon WAR's "one-shot" Aby NMs, they just have too much HP outside of brews. Aby is 100% about procs not damage, anyone can do damage, not everyone has access to the procs necessary. The objective is to get as few players in a group as possible, even if it means bringing your own mules, so that you have maximum amount of personal loot. RDM could do 50K WS's without a brew, and it still wouldn't be desired in an aby PT due to it's lack of procs.

[SpankWustler]

Pretty much every job that doesn't have a number of unique procs or a huge number of procs is equally useful/useless in Abyssea. Of the jobs that aren't useful there now, no change to actual effectiveness will ever make any of them useful there. It is what it is.


You want to be some kind of magey-meleey sword-swinging pimphat-wearing hobo that incorporates all of SE's poorly formed/translated ideas from the last 10 years

For some reason, I imagine the element of "hobo" was originally involved in every job while the Development Bros were working on it at a conceptual level. It just feels right to me given some of the stuff they've said.

"This is Red Mage, who inhales paint fumes to briefly hallucinate that it is a demi-god who can cripple foes with enfeebling magic. Red Mages take advantage of White Magic and Black Magic to do what is needed, much as they take advantage of both white and black blankets to ward off frostbite."

Should the situation call for it, the Red Mage can even wield a sword skillfully. Far more often, they find themselves wielding a discarded two-by-four to thrash the stray dog who wants to eat their swollen, diabetic toes."

"This is Warrior, who wields many weapons including a broken bottle of Buckfast Tonic Wine. They can deal physical damage in almost any situation, but can never come to terms with the loss of their spouse and child in the fire that destroyed their home-office."

"This is White Mage, he is obviously racist but you will give him five dollars out of extreme pity. Also, something about healing magic."

[Duelle]

Did I waste time sitting there wishing SE would rewrite all the damage formulas or give me incredibly strong JAs/spells to compensate for the fact that my job had no compelling reason to be on the front line in a group? No, I didn't. My job had a use and was desired in a time when FFXI's endgame was very heavily driven by job stigmas and it wasn't nearly as easy to level/gear a new one as it is now.The only thing that was hard about leveling RDM pre-abyssea was the chance of burnout from heal/refresh/haste spam. Other than that, I clearly remember everyone who played the job used to have to go /anon. Some embraced the quick and easy invites, while the melee camp tried to present our argument but were told to STFU by the bandwagonners that loved their easy ride to 75 and merit parties.

Fast forwards 24 levels. My RDM is level 91 and I have leveled jobs from 50 to 99 before bringing it to an xp party. Why? Because even if I got it to 99, I wouldn't have a use for it. I don't need a mediocre melee to farm zone drops with anymore. I have Dancer. I don't need any of RDM's party advantages (if they exist). My mule has WHM for lowman and no one would ever ask me to go RDM to a real event because it just isn't very useful.So we agree the job is in dire need of fixes. At last we have found common ground. That aside, Abyssea's proc system was clearly not designed with jobs like RDM in mind, or under the illusion that you'd bring as many people as possible to an event so that the difference in performance is less noticeable.

You want to be some kind of magey-meleey sword-swinging pimphat-wearing hobo that incorporates all of SE's poorly formed/translated ideas from the last 10 years, even though several of them have been assigned to since-created jobs or poorly implemented already?Hurling insults won't stop Saev or myself or others from voicing their opinions. I'd call it "magic fencer" or "sword and spell-wielding swashbuckler", anyway.

As I see it, the playerbase needed to be weaned off of using RDM the way they were at 75. Yes, this means that while some were moping over their loss of auto-invites for events, it gave me hope in that maybe, just maybe there is something in store for our job once the dust settles. That's why I wasn't frothing at the mouth when Temper was self-cast. Same with the Gain line (really, the only thing they got wrong was making it start at lv80 instead of having it start at around lv55).

Either that or they decided to leave the mess as is and hoped people who wanted to support or nuke or melee jumped to other jobs and just forgot about RDM.

[SpankWustler]

As I see it, the playerbase needed to be weaned off of using RDM the way they were at 75. Yes, this means that while some were moping over their loss of auto-invites for events, it gave me hope in that maybe, just maybe there is something in store for our job once the dust settles. That's why I wasn't frothing at the mouth when Temper was self-cast. Same with the Gain line (really, the only thing they got wrong was making it start at lv80 instead of having it start at around lv55).

There's an issue with the spells either way, honestly. If the current potency is "correct" than it's awful that those spells are self-cast only. If being self-cast only is "correct" than the current potency is awfully lacking. Both temper and the Gain- line are comparable in potency to multiple target abilities possessed by other jobs.

I can see an argument for Temper's moderate potency since it stacks with similar abilities, but it the job being affected also needs to be taken into account. Temper, the self-only spell, could be 30% Double Attack and 10% Triple Attack and 3% Quadruple Attack and it would not lead to Red Mage breaking the game.

Whatever the Development Bros are actually going for, I am certain that they're running around naked rather than getting there.

One thing that I do think has moved in a very positive direction is this: being a support job, any support job regardless of quality in any and every activity, is far from the golden ticket that it was in earlier and middle years of Final Fantasy XI.

[Byrth]

As I see it, the playerbase needed to be weaned off of using RDM the way they were at 75. Yes, this means that while some were moping over their loss of auto-invites for events, it gave me hope in that maybe, just maybe there is something in store for our job once the dust settles. That's why I wasn't frothing at the mouth when Temper was self-cast. Same with the Gain line (really, the only thing they got wrong was making it start at lv80 instead of having it start at around lv55).

See, here's the problem. SE is clearly pushing RDM back towards the healing/support role with the healing magic patch. Endgame events (like Voidwatch, Walk of Echoes, or Legion) are not designed so healers/support players can responsibly be in AoE range. Trying to make meleeing (or anything that involves being under 20' from the monster) an essential part of the Red Mage job will fundamentally exclude you from hard-monster endgame, the same way that it excludes Dancer.

Like, lets assume they give Red Mage "En-Bad Breath" and it is potent and accurate, but you need to melee to keep it up like Dancers need to melee to keep Haste Samba up and all the normal monster status resistances apply. Do you think that you would ever be invited to a Voidwatch party to use it? I don't.

If they gave Red Mage a spell called "Temper" that gives 20% DA to its target (anyone in party, up to 20' away) and "Gain-STR" for +25 STR (anyone in party, up to 20' away), do you think they would ever be invited to a Voidwatch Party to use them? You know, that might be enough to get them in to a melee party as a healer.

If you like using the job, ask for changes to it that are:
1) Simple - The Dev team doesn't have much time/effort to spare.
2) Brief - The odds of any of our comments getting translated are low or non-existent.
If your idea is more than a sentence or two, I don't think it has a chance for both reasons 1 and 2.


The changes I would actually like to see:
1) Make RDM-specific magic from Barspells to Enspells to Gain spells to Temper all single-target instead of self-target.
2) Make all Enhancing magic stack with Accession.
3) Allow Composure's Triple duration to stack with the AF3+2 set when a Composured and Accessioned spell targets yourself. You would end up with 5.85 times duration on players other than yourself.
4) Fix Enspell IIs so they proc on both swings, even if the damage doesn't increment between additional effects of the same attack round.

This is what I proposed in the second post of this thread:
"Or we could just fix RDM's native enhancing magic and let them target other players."

This is what I am hoping they would translate:
"The NA players are asking for RDM's spells to be able to target other players again."

[Duelle]

Trying to make meleeing (or anything that involves being under 20' from the monster) an essential part of the Red Mage job will fundamentally exclude you from hard-monster endgame, the same way that it excludes Dancer.Following the rules other melee follow is not a bad thing.

Like, lets assume they give Red Mage "En-Bad Breath" and it is potent and accurate, but you need to melee to keep it up like Dancers need to melee to keep Haste Samba up and all the normal monster status resistances apply. Do you think that you would ever be invited to a Voidwatch party to use it? I don't.I wouldn't ask for something like that, either. En-anything is not enough. You'd have to bring in other changes to make a difference. Gear, job abilities, changes to profficiencies, weapon skill access, and more.

If they gave Red Mage a spell called "Temper" that gives 20% DA to its target (anyone in party, up to 20' away) and "Gain-STR" for +25 STR (anyone in party, up to 20' away), do you think they would ever be invited to a Voidwatch Party to use them? You know, that might be enough to get them in to a melee party as a healer.Taking us back to square one. If that's the only available role for RDM, no thanks.

If you like using the job, ask for changes to it that are:
1) Simple - The Dev team doesn't have much time/effort to spare.
2) Brief - The odds of any of our comments getting translated are low or non-existent.
If your idea is more than a sentence or two, I don't think it has a chance for both reasons 1 and 2.Simple and brief would have worked in 2004, before the first (terrible) overhaul of the job. It might have even worked in the transition to TAU, as a way of saying "sorry we messed things up and urinated on the guys that wanted 魔法剣士/Magic Fencer RDM". Alas, the opportunities were had but were not acted upon. I am well aware that they'd have to clean up a mess that has been left alone for close to a decade, but I see nothing wrong with that.

This is what I am hoping they would translate:
"The NA players are asking for RDM's spells to be able to target other players again."And here's what I want them to pass on to the developers: "There's two distinct groups of players who play Red Mage. Some want to support, others want to be in the frontlines. We should make changes so that both sides can be happy and enjoy their favorite aspects of the job in group play and events".

[saevel]

Byrth,

To answer your questions.


Trying to make meleeing (or anything that involves being under 20' from the monster) an essential part of the Red Mage job will fundamentally exclude you from hard-monster endgame, the same way that it excludes Dancer.

Define this. You can not state such a position with such an ambiguous supporting point. Anything that effects RDM or DNC will effect SAM, WAR, DRG, DRK, PLD, MNK, NIN, THF, BLU the same way to the same extend whether it be paralyze, petrification or silence. RDM is not inherently more susceptible to negative status effects, if anything the opposite is true as I can give myself 150 ME to one element and whatever ME / resist to one status-ailment.

You also can not assume the RDM is the healer in the above as being the main healer immediately excludes you from being within aoe range, main heal duties do not mesh with hitting things with sharp pointy things nor do they mesh with blowing things up.


SE is clearly pushing RDM back towards the healing/support role with the healing magic patch.

This is false. SE refused to give out Cure V to prevent RDM and SCH from becoming main healers. They actually told us this after people kept asking for it. It has taken them over a year, from the first time we asked, to finally get around to helping RDM and SCH in healing. The answer is a change to the way the cure formula works such that healing magic skill becomes more effective then MND at increasing cure power. This seems (its still on test server) to have increased Cure IV by 30~40%. It still less then Cure V and creates an astronomical amount of hate if spammed, but it is sufficient to allow a RDM and SCH to support heal. WHM's can cast both Cure IV and Cure V, RDM's and SCH's only have one Cure IV and a much smaller Cure III. RDM will not be able to main heal a melee party, they take too much aoe damage, SCH might with smart use of their stratagems and Regen V buff. What RDM will be able to do is support heal by quickly tossing Cure IV's around on people who hit low HP. I've done this at 75, it works as advertised. Being engaged on a target does not disable Cure, you can test this out if you doubt. Being engaged does not disable macro swapping, it doesn't disable enfeebling spells either. Being within melee range and main healing are exclusive due to the amount of casting required coupled with the amount of attention needed towards people's HP bars and status effects, not due to some hidden quirk with RDM's spell list and equipment.


If they gave Red Mage a spell called "Temper" that gives 20% DA to its target (anyone in party, up to 20' away) and "Gain-STR" for +25 STR (anyone in party, up to 20' away), do you think they would ever be invited to a Voidwatch Party to use them? You know, that might be enough to get them in to a melee party as a healer.

You and I both know it wouldn't. VWNM is about procing then slaughtering, you wouldn't put a RDM into a melee party as that would be a waste of a COR or BRD slot. Instead you'd put them the same place their put now, in the BLM party helping the BLM's hit procs. I've been invited many times to VWNM as a RDM/SCH with two BLMs, my assigned procs are typically Tier II - IV + Helix's along with the enfeebling procs. This allows the BLMs to split AM's and GA / JA between the two of them resulting in much faster magic proc times. The only counter to this argument is that putting a third BLM would have the same effect, which is correct. You'd be sacrificing the RDM specific procs but those are so small and rarely show up. Ultimately both do the exact same job with RDM having a slight advantage with the miniscule procs.

I've said it before, your not getting Temper in it's current form ever. It originally was 5% static, then we asked enough and they decided to make it scale with enhancing magic. SE is not going to let us put that much DA on someone without some sort of drawback, both COR and BRD can only put two buffs per person. If they allow it to be single targeted they would nerf the crap out of it. I'm willing to bet gil on the above statement, and I don't gamble. That is how sure I am of it.

I've said on numerous occasions that SE should never of created the self-cast versions of Gain / Bar spells and instead just gave both WHM and RDM the same aoe spell. SE said they didn't want to do that. You seem to of interpreted that as they wouldn't be against giving RDM a single target version, but that wasn't their intent. They didn't give us aoe's because they didn't want us buffing you and instead wanted WHM to be the one doing it. If you want barspells and +25 STR then go ask your WHM to do it as SE intended.


2) Make all Enhancing magic stack with Accession.
3) Allow Composure's Triple duration to stack with the AF3+2 set when a Composured and Accessioned spell targets yourself. You would end up with 5.85 times duration on players other than yourself.
4) Fix Enspell IIs so they proc on both swings, even if the damage doesn't increment between additional effects of the same attack round.

I agree and would absolutely love it if these were implemented. I have no problem using accession to buff a bunch of people.


"Or we could just fix RDM's native enhancing magic and let them target other players."

Is just


1) Make RDM-specific magic from Barspells to Enspells to Gain spells to Temper all single-target instead of self-target.

Said differently.

And


"The NA players are asking for RDM's spells to be able to target other players again."

Is wrong, SE never took away any of our spells. Our other target-able spells are exactly the same as they were at 75, Haste, Refresh, Protect, Shell, Phalanx II, if anything it's technically grown since the introduction of Refresh II. /SCH allows all except Refresh II, Haste and Enspell II to be cast on other players.

Most of your argument is just a rehash of what people said after SE introduced Temper. They didn't change their mind then, they won't change it now. It isn't going to happen because SE doesn't want it to happen.

Plus you would NEVER go RDM if they introduced these changes. Your entirely too aggressive a player to be content spamming the same three to four spells every 4~5 min on a bunch of jocks bragging about their e-peens. Your own e-peen requires that you join in somehow and such you would ask someone else in your LS to come RDM so you could come MNK or WAR or whatever job it is you play now.

That could be alleviated if SE would be reasonable and made cast / recast really short. A 1s cast time and 3~5s recast on all those spells would make them somewhat more endurable to cycle.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Point 1 was already explained to you a page back, so go back and read it. A melee's job is to you know deal damage at close range, you going up and hitting mobs with unfavorable AoEs means you are wasting resources either on yourself or the healer has to decide who to heal (any smart one will not choose you and will keep the DD alive); you just become a burden either on your healers or on your own resources burning them to keep yourself alive.


Point 2 being engaged does nerf your cures as you lose up 24% cure potency, unless you're going to advocate gimping your damage by using inferior weapons. And if you didn't notice the cure power on both 5-6 was lowered slightly/not affected by the change (in fact, the lower cures are now more efficient than 5, and 6 is even less efficient than normal outside, which I find quite ironic because I personally felt that wasn't possible, and yet SE went above and beyond the Call of Duty).


Point 3 you get put in the Blm party because you can't really support anything else.


Point 4:



Plus you would NEVER go RDM if they introduced these changes. Your entirely too aggressive a player to be content spamming the same three to four spells every 4~5 min on a bunch of jocks bragging about their e-peens. Your own e-peen requires that you join in somehow and such you would ask someone else in your LS to come RDM so you could come MNK or WAR or whatever job it is you play now.



You're full of shit.

[Ophannus]

On the plus side, RDM feels like a god in old content. I know it's pointless but it's still kind of fun running around doing old content on RDM, nuking for 1500+, pulling off 2k+ weapon skills, 600 cure IVs, gravity2/sleep2/binding stuff, taking single digit damage with PDT/Phalanx, dual wielding swords with capped equip haste and 30 damage enspells and temper. On old content RDM feels like an FF3 onion knight in that we can do everything amazing.

Sometimes I feel as though SE religates RDM to be a job only useful for mid-game content. It seems like they've designed RDM to be good at lower levels and crap at higher levels not unlike Red Mages in older, offline final fantasies where after like level 60 you job change your RDMs into BLMs or other mage jobs. They seem to want to keep us able to be decent at a little bit of everything but if they give us stronger nukes and stronger cures, we'd impinge upon SCH territory. They gave SCH higher tier regen spells but tbh I feel as though that should have been RDM's domain. Let SCH get cure 5 with Addendums and let RDM be the king of HoT and DoT. Give us Regen III/IV and V, Refresh III and IV, Poison III/IV, Bio IV, Dia IV. Let WHM, BLM and SCH be good for strong nukes and cures, but let RDM deal damage over time and heal hp/mp over time. It fits our enhancing/enfeebling nature. They're limited to what new enfeebles to give RDM without making the game too easy which is probably why our enfeebles hardly proc or wear off so soon on HNMs, if Paralyze II was as effective on HNMs as it is on regular monsters, the game would be *even easier* than it is now I supposed.

Since we already have such a huge library of spells I can see why SE hesitates at making RDM stronger in any one aspect since no other job has as many spells and tools as us(the only problem is most of our spells become outdated or worthless because they only affect us. I just can't comprehend why they gave RDM self-cast versions of enhancing magic and gave WHM AoE versions. They keep calling WHM they healing specialist yet they get like 70% of our spells in AoE form. Why not let WHM only have AoE Cures/Heals, let BLM have only AoE nukes and let RDM be the specialist of AoE debuffs and AoE enhancing? If RDM had Hastega/Protectra/Shellra/Bar-a and Enspell-ga we'd garner more worth in parties yet for some reason they gave AoE's to other classes and left RDM at self-cast. No point in boosting RDM's own abilities when on endgame content our native skills and abilities are so weak already that even with the boosts we're still extremely lackluster. Haste/Temper/Gain-Str and Enthunder II boosts our melee capability from F to maybe D- which is roughly the equivalent of a Perle BST.

[saevel]

I just can't comprehend why they gave RDM self-cast versions of enhancing magic and gave WHM AoE versions. They keep calling WHM they healing specialist yet they get like 70% of our spells in AoE form. Why not let WHM only have AoE Cures/Heals, let BLM have only AoE nukes and let RDM be the specialist of AoE debuffs and AoE enhancing? If RDM had Hastega/Protectra/Shellra/Bar-a and Enspell-ga we'd garner more worth in parties yet for some reason they gave AoE's to other classes and left RDM at self-cast.

I asked these questions as I agree that we should be able to buff other melee's near us. SE's answer was they wanted WHM to be the specialize in AoE buffing with white magic. Which I took to mean that they don't want RDM's putting out buffs on other party members.

Our melee is a damn sight better then F-/D-, near NIN / THF / DNC group depending on target. Most people got this image stuck in their head of an AF wearing RDM swinging an underleveled sword. What RDM is lacking is uber gear, I have pretty much the best melee set you can build for RDM and my body if from level 75. Parts of my WS set are from 75, and most newer gear was slightly upgrades from older gear. We were kept off the truly awesome stuff (Toci / Athos's / ect..) and put on the every mage gear which absolutely sucks.

For example, I looked over the Rub set and other then the legs, it all sucks for RDM. It's literally just a weak version of our Emp +2 set, basically an enfeebling set for WHM, BLM and SCH. This is the crap I get pissed at, if your going to put RDM on a mage set then it better be a damn good mage set (like Emp) now some crappy set that stats worse then those from 90.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Our melee is a damn sight better then F-/D-, near NIN / THF / DNC group depending on target.

No, not really... no.

[saevel]

No, not really... no.

Yes, really yes. I can demonstrate if you want to come to Lakshmi.

I looked over what you did last time you tried to craftermath it up, and you used moten's PLD template and butchered the heck out of it. You then created an imaginary NM to fight against and nerfed the PLD while buffing the BLU to get your 30% figure. You deliberately adjusted the attack / defense values so that the PLD would be under 1.0 ratio while the BLU wouldn't.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Except Mot has a Rdm Nin and Dnc sheet...? I only used a pld sheet because one for Rdm hadn't been made yet, or are you talking about blu? For nin/thf/dnc vs Rdm I used fodder mobs lol, Rdm is still behind all of them. Try again. You compare Emp Rdm to shit tier Thf/nin/dnc and think the job is 'keeping up', give it up.

And I've never used any imaginary NM, the highest monster I ever compare Rdm to is Bukhis/Qilin (Even Qilin you shouldn't be meleeing). Anything else and you shouldn't be meleeing it.

You know what all 3 of those 3 can do Rdm can't? /War and still have dual wield, that's why cratio is low on high defense mobs. I don't assume outside buffs/debuffs, hold that against me. I also assume the other jobs aren't getting Dia3.

Oh and btw, even if you had Ageha and Dia3 on Bukhis, you still get crushed in DPS by all 3.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Blah! Blah! Melee nonsense in an Enhancing thread. Blah! Blah!

Like I said, unless we can keep on topic SE will always ignore RDM, so Thanks!

[saevel]

Except Mot has a Rdm Nin and Dnc sheet...? I only used a pld sheet because one for Rdm hadn't been made yet, or are you talking about blu? For nin/thf/dnc vs Rdm I used fodder mobs lol, Rdm is still behind all of them. Try again. You compare Emp Rdm to shit tier Thf/nin/dnc and think the job is 'keeping up', give it up.

And I've never used any imaginary NM, the highest monster I ever compare Rdm to is Bukhis/Qilin (Even Qilin you shouldn't be meleeing). Anything else and you shouldn't be meleeing it.

You know what all 3 of those 3 can do Rdm can't? /War and still have dual wield, that's why cratio is low on high defense mobs. I don't assume outside buffs/debuffs, hold that against me. I also assume the other jobs aren't getting Dia3.

Oh and btw, even if you had Ageha and Dia3 on Bukhis, you still get crushed in DPS by all 3.

You made a level 107 Buhkis outside of Abyssea. It was a fictional monster, Buhkis isn't level 107, we fought him at level 85. You put him at that level to create additional LCF to force the RDM under 1.0 Ratio. At 99 with ~650 attack vs a lv 107 570 defense mob your Ratio is going to be so low that anything with zerk is going to deal 20~30% more melee damage period. THF can't go /WAR without giving up DWIII which is a 13.6% boost in it's melee Damage. But with high defense targets the damage from zerk means more.

Your assumptions were based on the PLD vs BLU you passed off as RDM vs BLU was so BS it ruined your credibility. The attack difference from a well geared BLU vs a geared RDM is approx 50.

Anyhow time for work but everyone here should know your comparisons are complete BS due to your unrealistic targets and manipulating the attack / defense sections.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Thf has DwIII at 99 rofl, do you even know what you're talking about?

I didn't know Bukhis's level at the time (nor was a Rdm sheet in existence, thanks for bringing up something from a few months ago), hence I was using a Pld sheet...Assuming you could fight him outside (he's a T mob), guess what, you still get beat hard by Any of those 3. Thanks for bringing the attack difference up though, it's not like Blu doesn't have superiour traits, gearsets, skill, can /war and still maintain Dw3, or the ability to self SC with spells -ohwait it can. Or are you going to recant your statement of Rdm being decent, because it's not even good at killing fodder mobs.

EDIT: other than the defense value I had to geusstimate back then, I didn't change anything extraodrinary on the sheet at all. Rdm has B skill while Pld is A+, so that had to be changed. Enlight has an accuracy bonus, so that also had to be removed (I couldn't think of anything to do about recasting enspells sooner, so I just left it). That's the only things I seriously modified. If you're going to call that butchering I'm done responding to you.

[Duelle]

Blah! Blah! Melee nonsense in an Enhancing thread. Blah! Blah!

Like I said, unless we can keep on topic SE will always ignore RDM, so Thanks!Considering one constantly feeds off the other, it ain't gonna happen. If it makes you feel any better, I was miffed when the guys here invaded the melee thread. Shoe's on the other foot and so on.

[saevel]

Thf has DwIII at 99 rofl, do you even know what you're talking about?

I didn't know Bukhis's level at the time (nor was a Rdm sheet in existence, thanks for bringing up something from a few months ago), hence I was using a Pld sheet...Assuming you could fight him outside (he's a T mob), guess what, you still get beat hard by Any of those 3. Thanks for bringing the attack difference up though, it's not like Blu doesn't have superiour traits, gearsets, skill, can /war and still maintain Dw3, or the ability to self SC with spells -ohwait it can. Or are you going to recant your statement of Rdm being decent, because it's not even good at killing fodder mobs.

EDIT: other than the defense value I had to geusstimate back then, I didn't change anything extraodrinary on the sheet at all. Rdm has B skill while Pld is A+, so that had to be changed. Enlight has an accuracy bonus, so that also had to be removed (I couldn't think of anything to do about recasting enspells sooner, so I just left it). That's the only things I seriously modified. If you're going to call that butchering I'm done responding to you.

Considering I was able to reproduce your results by playing with the defense values and LCF I know exactly what you did. You didn't include any of the RDM's self buffs.

Also Moten's current sheet doesn't even have Gain-XXX spells on it. Granted RDM melee comparisons are not in-demand and I figure they got more things to do first.

Geared BLU has 50 more attack then RDM, this is from gear and +10 from attack bonus. This isn't debatable, I happen to be a very well geared BLU with all Toci's and all, it happens to be my most played job. I know ~exactly~ what that job has for gear and if I want to see the difference it's as simple as walking into the MH and job swapping. Both jobs eat the same food and receive the same buffs. BLU has much better WS gear, RDM can buff a single stat by 25 The difference between the two comes down to Attack, the BLU can use Zerk for a 25% bonus 3/5 of the time, RDM can lower the targets defense by ~6% more then Dia II, if it's a pure test then the RDM gets a full 17.6% attack bonus (or 15% defense down) which actually barely beats out zerk buts till puts it under BLU.

The only way you can get 30% is if you carefully chose your LCF and defense values such that the BLU gets over 1.0 and the RDM gets under 1.0.

[saevel]

Elvann 99 RDM/NIN, 12 STR merits 8 sword merits 5% crit merits
Unbuffed no Food
STR:103+21
DEX: 84+24
Attack: 551
Haste:25%
DA: +10%
TA: +2%
Crit: +5%
Store TP:+10

W/ Bison Steak (+6 STR +90 attack@500 costs 5.5K each lasts 3hr)
STR: 103+27
DEX: 84+24
Attack: 644

W/Buffs
STR:103+52
DEX:84+24
Attack: 656
Dia III applied: 771.4
or
STR:103+27
DEX:84+49
Attack: 644
Dia III applied: 757.3

The rest

DA: +30%
Enspell +30 (29.15 at capped magic accuracy)
DW: 30%

99 Elvann BLU/WAR same as above
STR:103+31
DEX: 80+72
Attack: 581
Haste:24% (BLU needs to wear AF body, Zelus Tiara or Octh+1 to reach 25% haste)
DA: +26%
TA: +6%
Crit: +8% (Athos's boots and tights)
Critical Attack: +4% (A.Tights)
Store TP:+16

W/Food
STR:103+37
DEX: 80+72
Attack: 674
DW: 30%

Berserk:
Attack:820
Averaged as: 761.6

JT's set were DWIII, TA, Store TP I, Auto-Refresh, Utility Spells were Battery Charge, M.Fruit, A.Burst and WoP for 52/60 remaining for whatever else is needed possibly sTP II. Could disable utility spells but lose out on self healing and aoe erase.

757 vs 761.6

That is the difference. No way in hell are you getting a 30% difference between those two unless your doing some really dirty manipulation. BLU wins hands down in WS gear, it has a monstrous amount of DEX due to Toci's, Oth Head and Atho's set. Both jobs can achieve capped critical hit rate on the "outside Abyssea Bukhis during WS. BLU will hit cap crits on anything with 102 or less AGI during melee, at 112 or more that tappers off. RDM on the other hand only hits cap on things with 83 or less AGI, fodder basically.

What you did was give either give the BLU Dia III (or just Dia II from someone else) or simply not buff the RDM. You can get the BLU to capped haste by buying a ~6mil head piece or by switching out the body / head, which would yield less damage due to the DA/TA and dDex involved.

This is all gear I actually have, and not even in the most remote elitist mind can it be called gimp or average.

[Neisan_Quetz]

You can add in Gain spells manually, is that seriously too hard for you?

700 DPS are you serious... are you targeting EPs? You don't hit that with marches on a EP mob.

[saevel]

Finally WS,

WS
RDM
STR:103+28
DEX:84+91
Attack:652
Attack Dia III: 766.7
DA:28
TA:0
Crit:+5%


BLU
STR:103+44
DEX:80+85
Attack:681
Attack Berserk:828
Averaged Attack: 769.2
DA:24
TA:6
Crit:+9% (Athos's Hand + Feet + Leg)

Only difference here is for HQ Kak hands and / or feet. The set provides +1% after the first two so ends up being a wash without the body. I believe the body is the better Ws piece due to its +5% crit damage and slightly higher DEX, but there is DA + TA from the Toci's body. Should be close between them.

And I stand corrected, RDM actually has the same or slightly more DEX on WS set due to Gain-DEX making up the difference and then some. BLU can use the +7 ring but most give up the DA / TA from epona's.

[saevel]

You can add in Gain spells manually, is that seriously too hard for you?

700 DPS are you serious... are you targeting EPs?

Which you didn't do. I doubt you even added Temper seeing as it was a PLD sheet.

You also didn't even read or you'd recognize that the numbers aren't dps but attack values to show your misconception that /WAR is giving you some huge attack bonus is false. Neither is DA / TA giving you much of a multi-hit edge due to RDM's Temper.

It boils down to BLU having slightly higher attack, slightly more TA but less DA (due to Toci / Epona) and slightly more crit hit rate.

Those together would be enough for a 10~15%, even as much as 20% assuming the worst cast scenario for the RDM (high LCF mob which has annoying magic resistance). But to get 30% you need to be very dishonest with the numbers you use.

You also failed to account for any utility brought to the table other then damage. Seeing as this was a pure "RDM is the worst DD in the game" message from you, I pretty much just proved you wrong. Anything that RDM has a problem doing damage on, BLU will to. So by saying RDM is the worst you also say BLU is the worst due to their stats being so similar.

Anothing thing to note, Moten's sheet is missing things. The current RDM sheet does not have Gain-Stat and requires you to manually input it. Also it's missing gear, Tyrants Ring and Rancor Collar, both of which I happen to use. Those are a bit harder to add as their stats get swapped out during TP and WS and manually editing the data sets can screw the formula's up.

[saevel]

Now do you know what's better then both those scenarios? Putting them together, RDM/NIN + BLU/WAR (or both /DNC for dynamis). Dia III not only spikes your Ratio but also spikes your attack on Blue Magic Spells. It's one of the few ways to raise the damage of Blue Magic by a significant amount. It gives everyone an attack boost similar to an alliance wide Minuet.

[Neisan_Quetz]

You can add that manually, are you seriously too retarded to do that?

Using current pld sheet adjusted for Blu and actual Rdm sheet. Removed toci's for NQ harness. Left rest as Athos or HQ ocelomeh (spare me the gil arguments, Rdm is using near perfect set). Food is RCB for both, Blu/war DW3 STP1 TA and has Dia2, Rdm/Nin Dia 3. Target is fodder 420 base defense, both are tarutaru like race makes anything more than a 1-2% difference.

Blu/War 242.611 DPS overall accounting for Zerk Up/Down

Rdm/Nin 233 DPS

Oh okay, I'll take that back, on DC mobs Rdm is 3% behind a Blu who never casts spells and can't skillchain.



You also failed to account for any utility brought to the table other then damage. Seeing as this was a pure "RDM is the worst DD in the game" message from you, I pretty much just proved you wrong. Anything that RDM has a problem doing damage on, BLU will to. So by saying RDM is the worst you also say BLU is the worst due to their stats being so similar.



This is pretty ironic coming from you after all your whining about how BLu was a better healer enfeebler and damage dealer than Rdm.

[saevel]

You can add that manually, are you seriously too retarded to do that?

Using current pld sheet adjusted for Blu and actual Rdm sheet. Removed toci's for NQ harness. Left rest as Athos or HQ ocelomeh (spare me the gil arguments, Rdm is using near perfect set). Food is RCB for both, Blu/war DW3 STP1 TA and has Dia2, Rdm/Nin Dia 3. Target is fodder 420 base defense, both are tarutaru like race makes anything more than a 1-2% difference.

Blu/War 242.611 DPS overall accounting for Zerk Up/Down

Rdm/Nin 233 DPS

Oh okay, I'll take that back, on DC mobs Rdm is 3% behind a Blu who never casts spells and can't skillchain.


And thus I am proven correct. It's no where near 30% as you stated, nor is it "the worst DD evar!!" as you've been letting on. I didn't make a gil argument, I merely demonstrated EXACTLY what I had. I even stated that you could reach 25% haste by buying it and allowed for it. I used Bison Steak because it's cheap and what I use most of the time at 5.5K a stack. RCB's are hella expensive, your not spamming those. Of course I get my RCB's free thus I can spam those, but I certainly don't expect everyone else to.

And what your not saying is that a BLU who is casting spells will do less damage then a BLU who is spamming CDC as casting lowers your TP gain rate and melee damage. So your actually showing your optimal setup as long as you don't cast spells. Self SCing once per 1:40, assuming your TP and timers magically align with the monster remaining HP so as to not overkill it, is the only thing missing off that list. Self SCing is not going to add 27% additional damage (3% -> 30%).

And you cheated, you can't have two sub jobs so you can't add Dia II to the monster for an 11.1% attack bonus. Someone else has to, but we'll allow that seeing as this is a party enhancing thread and we're all about helping each other out.

You said RDM was one of the worst DD's you even placed WHM above RDM. You placed DNC, THF, BLU and even BRD above RDM. And we just demonstrated how that was all wrong, RDM is right behind a BLU/WAR. It should be behind BLU, it should be in the same bracket as THF / NIN / DNC. Honestly the only thing RDM is missing is some decent gear options in the Body and feet department.

[Neisan_Quetz]

It's behind Thf Nin Dnc and Blu I'm sorry but you're pretty delusional if you think being 3% within Blu means you're close to those 3. Except maybe a terribad Thf, or a Bad Nin. Excuse me, why would you take Rdm at that point? That's pretty damn terrible. Are you seriously happy you beat the other mages? I mean, really? You're happy you can outDD Smn Blm and Sch? Damn I wish I could be as cool as you.
(I intentionally ignored Whm because I don't believe they should be meleeing actually. I don't have the patience to math Brd - Actually, it wouldn't even take longer than a half hour).

Tashan already explained to you spellcasting on Blu on the Blue forum, go read it again.

Sorry, I carry a pocket Whm, so Dia2 will be on unless you solo on Blu/war (not gonna happen). You already admitted you duo so you'd have dia 3 for both (Rdm now 6% behind Blu on fodder).

[saevel]

Now this has all been fun but in all honestly there isn't an activity in existence that will have either BLU or RDM not casting anything. The difference between them will depend on casting load of each. The BLU's two buffs (Refresh / Haste) last 5min each, and honestly you should only need refresh if your needing to Cure bomb yourself a lot. The RDM has Haste / Refresh II / Temper / Enspell / Gain-DEX that need to be kept up, all at 11:42 recasts. This gives the BLU more swing time. And lets be honest, a RDM will be casting more then self buffs, they should be casting Dia III on every target and depending on target Paralyze II / Slow II. Both jobs have the capacity to heal but the RDM is traditionally expected to heal more, especially after next update (or whenever they introduce the healing buff).

Your real difference between the two is in the RDM's casting load, it's a job that can offer more then brunt melee damage and is expected to do more. And while a BLU can do this also, and some (including me) would say can do it better then RDM, most BLU's seem to temperately unlearn the spells M.Fruit, P.Embrace and W.Wind. Thankfully my duo partners haven't been effected by this disease yet.

Now back to skilling up healing magic skill.

[saevel]

It's behind Thf Nin Dnc and Blu I'm sorry but you're pretty delusional if you think being 3% within Blu means you're close to those 3. Except maybe a terribad Thf, or a Bad Nin. Excuse me, why would you take Rdm at that point? That's pretty damn terrible. Are you seriously happy you beat the other mages? I mean, really? You're happy you can outDD Smn Blm and Sch? Damn I wish I could be as cool as you.


Tashan already explained to you spellcasting on Blu on the Blue forum, go read it again.

Sorry, I carry a pocket Whm, so Dia2 will be on unless you solo on Blu/war (not gonna happen). You already admitted you duo so you'd have dia 3 for both (Rdm now 6% behind Blu on fodder).

And Prothscar explained it even better. All Tashan showed were Damage:MP ratios which are not what we're talking about. We need Damage:Time ratios and with Almace and /WAR greatly favor WS spam vs spell spam. A BLU/WAR who doesn't cast outside of self SC will deal more damage then one who spams spells. Casting one DD spell or two doesn't matter, it all reduces your TP gain rate, the more you cast the worse it gets. And the funny part is BLU spells get worse the higher the target. So in the situation where BLU would gain vs RDM, higher LCF, those spells you claim will add 27% would be much worse.

And by your own math it's 3% from your perfectly geared BLU. By your own admission then your behind the THF, NIN and DNC.

This wasn't an exercise about party support, it was a pure measurement of DD potential. By your own argument why bring a BLU when you can bring a THF, DNC or NIN who is, by your own argument, better then your BLU. And why bring any of them when you can just bring lots of WARs, MNKs and SAMs who are the undisputed kings of the DD hill. If damage is your only measure of a job, which you've demonstrated it is, then bringing a BLU instead of a WAR/SAM/MNK would be a bad decision.

Please argue more, you've already made yourself look very bad. You even disproved your earlier statements about BLU being "30%" better then a RDM. You can't make any sort of damage statements after doing that.

And if you really want to go off the deep end, I have my own 99 WHM that I dual box frequently. My SAM + my WHM will crush your BLU + WHM, but then we've really gone off the lank of pink butterfly's and this discussion becomes no longer relevant.

Thus on fodder, 3% which is 1000% less then your previous statement of 30%. You were off by a whole order of magnitude, talk about hyperbole.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Slippery slope more please. Please keep bringing up a guess I made a couple of months ago, and the fake Bukhis was actually pretty close to a T3 VWNM (once again, wouldn't melee, but your statement that 'Blu does just as bad' is wholly incorrect).

Rdm isn't even the same league as Nin and Dnc, and I highly doubt Thf as bad as it is, but by a smaller margin. You're delusional if you think it is so just stop right there.

[cidbahamut]

Blah! Blah! Melee nonsense in an Enhancing thread. Blah! Blah!

Like I said, unless we can keep on topic SE will always ignore RDM, so Thanks!

Just start reporting the posts for being off topic.

[saevel]

Slippery slope more please. Please keep bringing up a guess I made a couple of months ago, and the fake Bukhis was actually pretty close to a T3 VWNM (once again, wouldn't melee, but your statement that 'Blu does just as bad' is wholly incorrect).

Rdm isn't even the same league as Nin and Dnc, and I highly doubt Thf as bad as it is, but by a smaller margin. You're delusional if you think it is so just stop right there.

So your admitting that BLU isn't even in the same league as a NIN, DNC and THF?

And now it's a "guess" is it? You were pretty adamant, even so far as to call people names and make all sorts of wild statements, based on that "guess". Must of been one helluva guess. And I take it this statement about NIN, DNC and THF is also a "guess". Well if your previous guess is anything to go by then your wrong on this one by an order of magnitude, 1000%.

But please continue, I know your working over the spreadsheets right now trying to up this value, or lower that value to find a combination of def / vit / level that gives your position the biggest lead. You even going to go so far as to assume some other RDM is casting Dia III for your BLU/WAR in an attempt to make that number bigger.

Face it, you were wrong about RDM. You have even admitted it here, though you didn't realize you had until afterwards. You post of 3% difference is not the 30% you claimed. And even if you raised the level of the target it won't be 30%. You'll get 10~15% at best, 20% if the RDM is penalized in some fashion. That puts RDM right in line with what I've been saying for years now. RDM melee isn't weak, worthless or bad, it's within the same bracket of NIN / THF / DNC and BLU. It's not better then them, but it won't be far behind them either. And no where near a "F" rating.

But please, continue on. Your posting for the entire world to see and you've already disproved your earlier point. Calling names doesn't really help your position.

And btw, just to clarify a misconception you might have. A BLU/WAR with CDC is better then a NIN, THF or DNC. CDC beats out Hi and RS is only good if stacked with SA or TA. THF and DNC would be using Exten as their WS of choice. What makes CDC so strong is that it's a multi-hit critical WS with a high DEX mod. Stacking DEX not only raise's D and acc but raise's the critical hit rate until cap. If your perfect BLU/WAR can't crush the RDM/NIN, then neither will a NIN, DNC or THF.

[saevel]

Already did, that's the point. Your now backing yourself into a corner. You made a sweeping generalization months ago, have used that statement at every opportunity to bash and insult me and other RDMs. And your just proved yourself wrong in front of the very people you insulted.

Like I said, continue on, everyone's watching. This is the reason I've had you on ignore for months, only occasionally clicking view to see if your tones changes, and it hasn't. Maybe after this you'll stop posting anti-RDM stuff here. In any case you'll be hearing about this from now until the servers shutdown.

[Neisan_Quetz]

You obviously haven't or you wouldn't be thinking they're in the same bracket on fodder or harder mobs.

[saevel]

You obviously haven't or you wouldn't be thinking they're in the same bracket on fodder or harder mobs.

So tell everyone, is these THF, NIN and DNC weaker then your BLU/WAR?

Anyhow, lets end this right here and right now. Your wrong about RDM vs BLU, you've demonstrated your wrong. So stop making derogatory comments about RDM melee as every comment you make now applies to your perfect BLU/WAR also.

[Neisan_Quetz]

And btw, just to clarify a misconception you might have. A BLU/WAR with CDC is better then a NIN, THF or DNC. CDC beats out Hi and RS is only good if stacked with SA or TA. THF and DNC would be using Exten as their WS of choice. What makes CDC so strong is that it's a multi-hit critical WS with a high DEX mod. Stacking DEX not only raise's D and acc but raise's the critical hit rate until cap. If your perfect BLU/WAR can't crush the RDM/NIN, then neither will a NIN, DNC or THF.

Maybe from Blu/War. Most definitely not from Rdm. Rdm is a worst DD than all the heavy melees, all of the light melees, behind Blu (Rdm close to Nin in DD? you play with some fucking shitty Nins), probably abit better than Brd and Whm (assuming both are getting marches in Brd's case), and above Smn/Blm/Sch strictly because of how bad all 3 are at meleeing. I'm going to ignore Cor because trying to figure out RA/Qds is too troublesome, but I'd easily put money on WF/Last Stand over Rdm, so yea, that's a pretty bad DD if you can't justify it meleeing on fodder.

[saevel]

Maybe from Blu/War. Most definitely not from Rdm. Rdm is a worst DD than all the heavy melees, all of the light melees, behind Blu (Rdm close to Nin in DD? you play with some fucking shitty Nins), probably abit better than Brd and Whm (assuming both are getting marches in Brd's case), and above Smn/Blm/Sch strictly because of how bad all 3 are at meleeing. I'm going to ignore Cor because trying to figure out RA/Qds is too troublesome, but I'd easily put money on WF/Last Stand over Rdm, so yea, that's a pretty bad DD if you can't justify it meleeing on fodder.

So your stating that your perfect BLU/WAR is behind all those then? And yes CDC beats Hi, NIN's complain about Hi all the time.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Yes, it's behind an autoattacking Blu/war. Please post your proof of CDC on Rdm beating Hi, on fodder and even harder mobs, it's not happening even with Hi's unfavourable Mod. A decent Nin will absolutely outdamage a Rdm anywhere.

[saevel]

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Blade:_Hi

4.0 first hit, 1.0 on off hand hit. 5.0 fTP total 60% AGI mod, 15% bonus crit at 100tp

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Chant_du_Cygne
2.25 on first hit, 1.0 on second and third and off hand hit. 5.25 fTP total 60% DEX mod, 15% bonus crit at 100 TP

Hi's mod only increase D, CDC's mod increase's D and enhanced hit rate another 10~15%.

Swords have higher D then Katana's.

Yes CDC wins between those two.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Okay, so you have no proof, that's all you had to say. It's okay, I got most of the day, I can wait.

[saevel]

A decent Nin will absolutely outdamage a Rdm anywhere.
Is this another one of your "by 30%!!!!" guess's. Just want to be clear for the record.

Above I showed how CDC beats Hi, it's pretty clear.

You do realize that NIN wears mostly the same WS gear as BLU right. With the swapping out of pieces for AGI you get the same Ratio and WSC values. CDC has higher total fTP, higher crit rate and and higher base DMG, for whatever that's worth. It's not exactly rocket science, but then again you like to make wild guess's.

[Neisan_Quetz]

No, you did not show anything. Please post some proof of CDC on Rdm beating Hi, or shut the fuck up.

[saevel]

Okay, so you have no proof, that's all you had to say. It's okay, I got most of the day, I can wait.

Ohh so your pulling this tactic are you. Trying to save face even after your wildly incorrect statements.

You made the statement that a NIN would crush a RDM and that Hi beats CDC, now prove it, with ALL the details. Including the buffs you chose to give and take away.

[Qeepel]

Hello everyone,

I'd like to remind everyone to please refrain from making inflammatory comments towards others and off topic discussions. Such language and actions are considered a violation of the forum guidelines, and can result in the termination of your account.

Remember, everyone is entitled to their opinion. There is no need to make inflammatory comments towards other members that have opposing or different points of views or opinions. The same goes for those who feel the need to defend themselves against such comments, which is needless and futile. Such behavior is not constructive and only clutters the thread. If you have a problem with a post, please place the player on your ignore list and report the post if necessary.

Thank you.

-SQUARE ENIX MODERATOR

[cidbahamut]

Hello everyone,

I'd like to remind everyone to please refrain from making inflammatory comments towards others and off topic discussions. Such language and actions are considered a violation of the forum guidelines, and can result in the termination of your account.

Remember, everyone is entitled to their opinion. There is no need to make inflammatory comments towards other members that have opposing or different points of views or opinions. The same goes for those who feel the need to defend themselves against such comments, which is needless and futile. Such behavior is not constructive and only clutters the thread. If you have a problem with a post, please place the player on your ignore list and report the post if necessary.

Thank you.

-SQUARE ENIX MODERATOR

Using the ignore list doesn't solve anything. In fact some posters will announce their intentions to place others on their ignore list and use that as a method of inciting further inflammatory remarks.

[Ophannus]

Does the RDM vs BLU argument take into consideration 30 damage En-spells?

[Neisan_Quetz]

That and Temper at varying enhancing skills (and even composure's accuracy bonus) are all on the new sheet for Rdm. It doesn't account for resists on enspells however.

[tyrantsyn]

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/s320x320/427430_329920440383195_100000957250449_879839_680207669_n.jpg

Why you no understand my RDM POWAR!!!

[saevel]

Moten's sheet has everything except Gain-X spells and a few pieces of gear. You can plug the data in manually.

Capped acc on Enspells are at 30 base is 29.47. I gave a bit more play room and allowed for 29.15 for day shifts.

I've provided all information, and this is stuff I actually have and use.

[tyrantsyn]

Just a thought, but since SE Idea is having RDM being a self buffing mage that keeps all it's best stuff to itself. Does any one have any idea for a self only buff for RDM that would not be consider imbalance? I only ask this because it seems like as a group were all going against the grain of what SE envision the job as.

To start us off I'll offer an old idea with a new twist???

Haste II: Increase both att speed and movement rate. Scale's with enhancing magic.

Edit: if not that maybe a spell that is the reverse of gravity that increases evasion and movement rate.

[Byrth]

I get RDM/NIN being about 40~50% behind DNC/WAR under these conditions:
* Assumed equal attack/accuracy and no JA usage or Spell Casting time (in balance, massively favorable to Red Mage especially considering the DNC has Berserk/Aggressor, Acc Bonus job traits, etc.)
* Assumed no enspells.
* Both jobs get Haste cast on them.
* RDM was using Almace/DA Sword, DNC was using Twashtar/STR Dagger
* RDM had Gain-STR and Temper with max potencies.
* Assumed permanent AM1 for the RDM. Permanent AM3 make it closer to 40% behind overall.

RDM WSs slightly harder, but DNC WSs more than twice as often. If you assume constant 30-damage enspells and AM3, RDM pulls close to parity in DPS but still doesn't come close to touching the TP output of Dancer.

I am going to put this again here in bold so it is not missed. I have made some incredibly favorable assumptions in RDM's favor and still get them lagging behind an equally geared Dancer by a significant amount. The job is not very good at meleeing, but with an incredibly simple change to its job-specific magic it could be useful as a supporting mage. I wish I could say the same for Dancer, but I can't.

[saevel]

I get RDM/NIN being about 40~50% behind DNC/WAR under these conditions:
* Assumed equal attack/accuracy and no JA usage or Spell Casting time (in balance, massively favorable to Red Mage especially considering the DNC has Berserk/Aggressor, Acc Bonus job traits, etc.)
* Assumed no enspells.
* Both jobs get Haste cast on them.
* RDM was using Almace/DA Sword, DNC was using Twashtar/STR Dagger
* RDM had Gain-STR and Temper with max potencies.
* Assumed permanent AM1 for the RDM. Permanent AM3 make it closer to 40% behind overall.

RDM WSs slightly harder, but DNC WSs more than twice as often. If you assume constant 30-damage enspells and AM3, RDM pulls close to parity in DPS but still doesn't come close to touching the TP output of Dancer.

I am going to put this again here in bold so it is not missed. I have made some incredibly favorable assumptions in RDM's favor and still get them lagging behind an equally geared Dancer by a significant amount. The job is not very good at meleeing, but with an incredibly simple change to its job-specific magic it could be useful as a supporting mage. I wish I could say the same for Dancer, but I can't.

Except you gimped the hell out of the RDM.

Gain-DEX > Gain-STR
30 Damage enspells, period.
Almace / STR Sword, unless your fighting really weak targets

And your spamming Saber Dance to get that Tp gain, Saber Dance at 5/5 will average 22.5% DA. The DA from saber dance does not stack with the +10 from WAR. It also locks out your waltzes but we'll assume that's ok.

Where exactly are you getting this TP from. NFR is 3min and is 5 free FM. RF can turn those 5FM's into 112TP for a quick WS. Three steps required to get 5FM for a RF, so your turning 30TP into 112TP which your immediately burning into a WS and need to start again building that 30TP. 15s per step for 45s to get enough for a full RF. Though doing at 4FM's would give you +91 TP, should let you WS sooner and only require 20 to begin with.

That's a whole lot of JA spam, at 120 delay each.

No doubt DNC can build rapid amounts of TP, but their not going to do 50% more damage from spamming all those JA's. Not unless your removing the JA delay entirely or playing with other numbers.
And this is all ignoring all those other abilities.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I had Dnc 30% ahead strictly speaking, not accounting for self SC/Reverse. That was assuming enspells, but not spamming steps. Nin was 25% or so receiving no buffs but haste. and yes I used Almace/Str/enspells (Nin's alot easier to figure).

Ninja almost 30% ahead with Boost-Agi at +20. 90 kannagi/kamome versus fodder. Blade: Hi 4% ahead of 90 Almace near perfect ws set (assuming no accuracy issues and Dia3 on Rdm, Dia 2 for Nin).

EDIT: Why would you not have haste unless solo with no mage..?

[saevel]

Ahh now I see, your adding all the Haste up, which makes sense, except if your giving the DNC Haste spell then the RDM gets that fully merited Haste Samba effect, disable enspells for that. Brings things much more in line.

If we're going to start going down this road then you need to share out all the buffs, can't have the RDM soloing while the DNC (or NIN, BLU, THF) is getting outside assistance. If you have a pocket WHM casting haste on you while casting Dia II on your mobs, then I'll take a pocket BRD casting double march's on me. If you demand a BRD and a WHM then I'll take a BRD and a DNC.

When you are comparing two jobs hitting a brick wall with infinite HP then you compare them as they are. RDM's buffs are as natural as Berserk / Aggressor / Saber Dance / Haste Samba are to those respective jobs. BLU can cast haste on itself, but DNC, THF, NIN, WAR, SAM, none of them can self buff with magic.

Now I know the next argument is going to be about "realism" since you'd never want to go into any fight without 24/7 rotating BRDs and buffs. This entire comparison isn't realistic, no RDM is going to only melee, neither is a BLU nor a DNC for that matter. This is just measuring the raw melee capabilities of a RDM vs various other jobs. Which means you compare it to those jobs without outside buffs. Or else you give the RDM corresponding buffs (you take a WHM and I'll take the BRD). Of course you'll just take a BRD/WHM doing double march's, haste and dia II, but now we're getting a tad bit power gamy.

[Neisan_Quetz]

EDIT: And what exactly is that going to prove? You've already stated you have pocket whm as do others, not that it's even necessary for fodder. Pocket brd also provides haste dia and marches. You'll still be behind, so not sure why that matters.

Added in Samba and x2 +3 March, Rdm 17% behind Dnc.


EDIT2: The hell, I don't even consider brd buffs usually because I personally don't have them. Not adding in haste is bad and you should feel bad if you don't bring it, don't blame your bad configuration for that.

[saevel]

Ok using Bryth's technique I get DNC over RDM by 6.6% when both are considered separately and spamming RCB's. Using a slightly more reasonable (for what you'd be using these jobs for) Bison Steak I get 4.8% in DNC's favor. Now everyone should understand why the aforementioned posters insist on using RCB's. Their +23% for a cap of 150 @ 652. None of those jobs can hit 652 without zerk, so while RDM can bring the NM's defense down and provide a boost bigger then that of zerg, it can never get the full benefit of that food. The more common and affordable YCB / Bison Steak on the other hand caps 90@500 and is reachable by all the jobs.

Giving the DNC outside haste raise's it's damage output 24.7%. And that's how their getting 30%.

And since we were being a bit silly today I used a 99 Excal / STR Sword RDM spamming Req with 500 strength enspell / Temper / Gain-STR and self haste. And all without disabling my ability to toss our Cure IV's at will.

-=edit=-

Did some looking around, if your using an Excal with Req then the DA sword will perform better then the STR one on fodder and things where you have high attack. The gain was 3.6%. On anything bigger then you are the STR sword pulls ahead due to how valuable attack becomes.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Bison and YCB give less attack even with RCB being uncapped...

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Just a thought, but since SE Idea is having RDM being a self buffing mage that keeps all it's best stuff to itself. Does any one have any idea for a self only buff for RDM that would not be consider imbalance? I only ask this because it seems like as a group were all going against the grain of what SE envision the job as.

To start us off I'll offer an old idea with a new twist???

Haste II: Increase both att speed and movement rate. Scale's with enhancing magic.

Edit: if not that maybe a spell that is the reverse of gravity that increases evasion and movement rate.

As I said in a previous thread: Faith and Brave, both spells in FF games and perfect as a self-buff for RDM, OP as party targetable.

[Byrth]

You can't actually have both Haste Samba and enspells.

I assumed the Dancer would get Haste because they benefit from it more than the Red Mage (both in terms of DPS and overall damage), so if the Red Mage was restricted to only casting it once, he should still cast it on the Dancer.

[tyrantsyn]

As I said in a previous thread: Faith and Brave, both spells in FF games and perfect as a self-buff for RDM, OP as party targetable.

I know I've seen the suggested before but can't seem to find your's. Can you post a link? I'd like to try and get this thread back on topic with something that actual has to do with enhancing magic.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I know I've seen the suggested before but can't seem to find your's. Can you post a link? I'd like to try and get this thread back on topic with something that actual has to do with enhancing magic.


We need this in the "actual" spells Faith and Bravery (only one can be up), I definitely don't want JA's as there is no real need, and spells can gain the benefit of being improved on by more enhancing which is more suited to RDM.

Could be:

Faith
Increases Magical damage and accuracy.
Lv. 99 RDM

Magic Accuracy: 10~25
Magic Attack Bonus: 5~15

Bravery
Increases melee accuracy and attack.
Lv. 99 RDM

Accuracy: 5~15
Attack: 5~15%

While I think RDM should get more buffs for party members these two would fall in line with Temper and Enspells in that they can only augment the RDM's strength.

These can be later increased via gear change on cast, same with temper which I'd personally give a 5% Chance of Triple Attack on under the guise of Augments "Temper".

Personally I'd go along the line of RDM gaining semi-strong spells to fall in line with: Making themselves demi-gods while potentially adding a tier II weaker version in line with Phalanx II for party targetable Such as Temper II: 5~10% DA.

As for not much space left for new spells that's down to SE to remove said limitation, not work around it.

I just copy and pasted.

[saevel]

You can't actually have both Haste Samba and enspells.

I assumed the Dancer would get Haste because they benefit from it more than the Red Mage (both in terms of DPS and overall damage), so if the Red Mage was restricted to only casting it once, he should still cast it on the Dancer.

*Cough*
You didn't read, at least I give you the courteously of reading.

Ahh now I see, your adding all the Haste up, which makes sense, except if your giving the DNC Haste spell then the RDM gets that fully merited Haste Samba effect, disable enspells for that. Brings things much more in line.

The RDM and DNC are not in the same party, their soloing their own infinite HP brick walls. There is no second "off screen" mule backing either job up. This isn't a contest on who has the most support, in that case why are we even limiting it to "haste", why not make it a BRD/WHM doing double march's and haste and dia II.

[saevel]

I would gladly discuss better enhancing magic, I like enhancing magic. All this DPS comparison X vs Y fighting a brick wall with infinite HP is just in response to NQ's old claim that RDM as "the worst DD evar!!" where he said RDM was 30% behind BLU and then that DNC / THF / NIN blow RDM away. Of course once it comes time to actually demonstrate, well turns out the BLU statement as a "guess" and really a BLU vs a gimped RDM. The DNC / NIN / THF statements were really "buffed dou DNC / THF / NIN" vs "soloist RDM". And "50%" was really "3~10%". I stated RDM should be behind DNC / NIN / THF / BLU but still within the same bracket, or about ~20%.

In reality none of that matters much, there will never be a situation where you have those respective job ~only~ meleeing with outside buffs, except possibly the NIN. If a group only needed damage from a slot they would bring a SAM / MNK / WAR / DRG / DRK instead.

[Neisan_Quetz]

20% less DPS isn't in the same bracket. It isn't. Stop acting like it is. Where did I say Rdm was the worst DD? I said it was a bad one, which, well, it is (being behind in DPS of every other light DD, especially an autoattacking hybrid, is terrible). If the only DDs you can confirm to beat are the mages and 1 of the support jobs, I got bad news...

I can't even respond to the rest, I feel my IQ dropping just looking at it.

[Tashan]

RDM needs to fill have a unique spell which makes it a niche job again, particularly something which I
improves other melee jobs.

One idea I have is a spell which is a targetable buff (like Haste) that treats all of the users weaponskills as if used at 300 TP and also triggers Level 3 aftermaths.

Another idea I have is a spell which increases the targets critical hit damage, perhaps with a hard cap so to not make jobs which already have high critical hit rates and damage too obscene.



Another idea I have is a

[Duelle]

Just a thought, but since SE Idea is having RDM being a self buffing mage that keeps all it's best stuff to itself. Does any one have any idea for a self only buff for RDM that would not be consider imbalance? I only ask this because it seems like as a group were all going against the grain of what SE envision the job as.Well, someone had suggested a spell that overwrites Temper that gives us +MAB/Affinity or something along those lines.

Haste II: Increase both att speed and movement rate. Scale's with enhancing magic.This would be real interesting. I would change movement speed to Evasion Rate, though. Movement speed would rub the developers the wrong way, since they seem to think anyone moving faster than molasses that is not a BRD or THF is plain broken OP. Also, if we're gonna make it scale with Enhancing Magic, then the attack speed effect should be slightly stronger than Haste I at 500 skill or whatever the cap is at 99 with gear.

(though I do admit, Movement speed would make it like how the guy that made Dead Fantasy used Haste >.>)

[Doombringer]

nah dude, you gotta leave the movement speed on haste 2 so it can then wear off as soon as you take any offensive action against anything.


also, there's an rdm dps spreadsheet now? neat. where is it though? i hit the same googledocs link i got the pld one from and i just keep getting error 500?

[Neisan_Quetz]

Seems to be down right now unfortunately.

[Doombringer]

sad times.. i mean i've hacked up that pld spreadsheet pretty good (you should see my awesome shikargar with +18% da, +22 att, +15 acc, +23 dex, and +11 str!)

but i never bothered tackling enspell, and it would be nice to have a good clean one. mine is such a mess i have trouble keeping track of it.. bailing wire and duct tape...

[saevel]

sad times.. i mean i've hacked up that pld spreadsheet pretty good (you should see my awesome shikargar with +18% da, +22 att, +15 acc, +23 dex, and +11 str!)

but i never bothered tackling enspell, and it would be nice to have a good clean one. mine is such a mess i have trouble keeping track of it.. bailing wire and duct tape...

Hey hey now. Many a splendid project involved duct tape. It's a perfectly fine solution :p

[Tassidaru]

Hey, i have an honest question... ive been working on a melee build for rdm... when its finished it will have 26% Gear haste (kind off a duh), EDIT: and of course spell haste, 47% double attack, 20 from temper and 27 from gear, (11 from sword, 3 from atheling mantle, 3 from portus collar, 3 from calmacac trousers, 2 from royal Royal Redingote, and 5 from brutal earring) and 8% gear dual wield suppa and redingote)
link to ffxiah gear list: http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/237585 (keep in mind it doesnt show augment stuff)

just how would that add up in this debate?

EDIT: and before anyone rants about why Excal, go Almace... ive wanted an excalibur WAY back before the lvl cap update...ever since i was lvling rdm, read the recommended sword list, it said excal was best but dont even think about it, its a pipe dream... and i thought...challenge accepted
oh and before you rant about the double attack sword... i built it back then it was thought that the double attack would be more...potent then the str sword...(that and ive seen the target list...and i dont wanna deal with that lol)

[Byrth]

Enspells overwrites Excal's additional effect, don't they?

[saevel]

Yes Enspells interfere with Xcal's add effect. Ends up being a toss up between them, enspells activate on every hit on both hands, Xcal only activates on main hand but does tons more damage. No info on bgwiki for it's proc rate but I'd head 5~10% as the rate.

Tass use the STR Magian weapon over the DA one. I have both, at 99 the STR one wins. Use Ogre Brego gloves over Dusk +1, unless their price has climbed into the stratosphere. Their basically the same but you don't need to worry about movement speed penalty. For Rings go Rajas + Tyrants and for the love of god do not use DA on your body. DW +3 and either Acc or Atk (I favor Attack as Acc is easier to deal with now). Hasty pinion is rarely worth it, between that and E.feet your adding another round till 100 while only gaining something like 0.4% haste (cap is 25, your gear lies to you). It might be a wash though. I tend to use Rancor collar for when I'm fighting anything that can't instantly kill me or that damage intake isn't an issue.

Xcal is fine if your going to be spamming Req instead. Req > KOTR, luckily as a RDM you should have all that MND gear anyway for your enfeebles.

-=Edit=-

having a bad day, typed Ogre but really meant brego.

[Byrth]

Excal's additional effect is a 10% proc rate. We're working out some template issues and then will re-do all the mythic/empyrean/relic pages. Laev (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Laevateinn), Twashtar (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Twashtar), and Apocalypse (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Apocalypse)are some examples, though we're still figuring out exactly what's going to happen.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Excal's additional effect is a 10% proc rate. We're working out some template issues and then will re-do all the mythic/empyrean/relic pages. Laev (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Laevateinn), Twashtar (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Twashtar), and Apocalypse (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Apocalypse)are some examples, though we're still figuring out exactly what's going to happen.

On the BG Page would it not look better like so:


Apocalypse (Level 75)
Apocalypse (Level 80)
Apocalypse (Level 85)
Apocalypse (Level 90)
Apocalypse (Level 95)
Apocalypse (Level 99)
Apocalypse (Level 99 Afterglow) or Apocalypse (Level 99) Afterglow


Apocalypse (Level 99 II) looks strange

[Tassidaru]

the rule of thumb i was taught was was that 26% gear haste guarantees the cap of 25% (because gear of say 4% is actually closer to 3.8% or something like that). and the keen is a placeholder for the raja, (i dont have it yet, im close but not quite to the fight, and id have to test if its worth it, and -here's the important thing- almost all the gear listed, is gear for tp (meleeing), im the kind of rdm that has no problem swapping every piece of gear for spells/ws) and I did a build of pure atk and it doesn't really change my per swing dmg, (im talking about over 600 atk, almost 700, w/o food), so eh, and why in the hell are you saying drop 4% haste and go for str? what? in a tp build? explain that one to me... even if atk was superior to haste...(not likely), the dusk has atk 6 where the ogre has str 6 (atk 3~) and crunching numbers over the excal, regardless, it gives me options, if <t> is physical def heavy (pdt) enspell, magic def heavy, (mdt) add. effect (which deals slashing dmg, physical) and please don't forget, the 99 relics boost they're ws with a straight 30% dmg boost, (info was announced with the last patch notes), i havnt seen testing for them, but im sure that it would but KoR close to CDC
oh and i almost forgot, there is a way for a solo dnc to have spell haste...the oynos knife and with 186 delay its a rather nifty little off hand dagger

[Doombringer]

why in the hell are you saying drop 4% haste and go for str? what? in a tp build? explain that one to me... even if atk was superior to haste...(not likely), the dusk has atk 6 where the ogre has str 6 (atk 3~)

he had to have meant brego, not ogre. typo i'm sure. brego are 4% haste 9 acc 5 str

also, we all understand that the 99 relic boosts the ws dmg by 40%. knights of round is just that bad.

excalibur itself is better than almace, but cdc is miles ahead of KoR.

i have an almace myself and i plan on making an excalibur soon pretty much just.. because it's an excalibur.. but i'll likely be using it with death blossom or requiscat. you prolly should be to.

[Tassidaru]

well, that does make a lot more sense... then again...its like 200k for dusk +1 and 1.5m for the brego, so unless i get them to drop, im sticking with the dusk lol

eh, i hate the look of the almace...it was designed with pld af3 in mind...same as the ochain, which makes sense, hawt pld ory shield. but the more i look at the almace, the more i wonder if they built it as for pld, then stuck blu and rdm buttons on it... and thought "lets stick a frenchy sounding name to the ws so the rdm wont bitch"

that and i'm not really impressed with CDC its not nearly good enough to warrent the goofy animation imo, and if i really wanted a ws dmg race, id be on my dnc/sam in aby doing 4kevis to 2k DE to 4kEvis for 5k darkness, no empy required lol

oh and ive been wondering why the hell not have DA on body...its not like acc is an issue ever, and atk on melee hits is kinda blah, (if i wanted to ws/melee in an atk body id use my assault jerkin lol)

[Duelle]

well, that does make a lot more sense... then again...its like 200k for dusk +1 and 1.5m for the brego, so unless i get them to drop, im sticking with the dusk lolThe convenience of not having to switch gloves every time we go out of combat is worth the extra million gil. >.>;

eh, i hate the look of the almace...it was designed with pld af3 in mind...same as the ochain, which makes sense, hawt pld ory shield. but the more i look at the almace, the more i wonder if they built it as for pld, then stuck blu and rdm buttons on it... and thought "lets stick a frenchy sounding name to the ws so the rdm wont bitch"I wouldn't go that far. The sword itself looks horribly unbalanced. Hilt is too short, blade is too wide. I commented once by calling Almace the ineffective brother of Clemente (from Tales of Destiny), just without the soul of the perverted old man living inside the sword. CDC's reference to Zorro would have been more notable if Almace was a rapier, though the blade's name is apparently taken from the blade of the Archbishop of Turpin (in before "l0l archbishops dunt belong in teh front l0lz").

[Doombringer]

again, don't wanna trash excalibur, it definitely CAN be competitive, and it IS the only sword with excalibur in its name...

but CdC is one of the better ws's like.. game wide, particularly in aby. if it isn't good enough for you, nothing RDM can use will be. it really is rdm's best ws. excalibur is still valid because of solid base dmg, an epic att boost, and a hidden dmg multiplier not tied to any aftermath, but don't underestimate almace just because you don't like the... look? of it...

boiled down i think it's a fair summary to say in abyssea, almace is better. outside abyssea, excalibur is better. but the difference in aby is a lot more significant than the difference outside.



also, as for DA vs att, you need to look at it as the long term average. sure you're not gonna notice +10 att on one hit.. but if it adds even... 2 points per swing? over the course of 100 swings that's 200 dmg. whereas 2% double attack will only get you 2 swings over that 100.

now of course how much those 2 free swings are worth, will vary depending on how hard you were hitting it already, if you hit for 50 dmg/swing, thats 100 dmg added per 100 swings. if you hit 100/swing, 200 dmg.

then of course the double attack helps build tp faster, but how valuable that tp will be depends on the strength of your ws's so that's yet another thing to consider.

i'm not really gonna advocate one over the other, DA vs. ATT, but again, it's not nearly so cut and dry as you seem to think it is.

[Tassidaru]

i suppose i should concede that just because i don't like the look i shouldn't bar it from the list of possibilities...and everything about rdm is a lot more murky then just about every other job ive lvled...then again thats kinda the nature of rdm isnt it? there is almost no wrong answer...
and for ws... i have 5/5 req. and hit between 1500 and 2500 generally, in and out of abyssea...(then again... i throw it in VW with no atmacites to boost it and hit for 500) i saw a near 3k in the garden of ru'met (or however its spelled) in sea, (those 85-90 aerns), so that was pretty sweet... (ive been debating on DA in WS for seemingly forever...) and i suspect it will get even better when i finish my excal...^.^

[Doombringer]

well req has a pretty rough attack penalty, so as mobs get tougher (higher tier voidwatch for example) it'll hit a wall.

whereas if mobs are weak enough that you can manage a solid att ratio ANYWAY, requiscats strong ftp and high mnd mod make it pretty good.

but that's all outside aby. inside the crit atmas skew things wildly into CdC's favor. razed ruins+sanguine scythe is such an insane combo you'd prolly be better off running a dagger and going with evisceration than using requiscat with anything.

[Tassidaru]

the only problem with that is regardless of how often i try, i cant seem to get my hands on a dagger better than my blah dolch

[saevel]

For dagger, try to see if you can spam Shrinyu with friends, Twilight drops from there and is one of the best / better daggers for RDM currently.

Many other jobs can jack their attack up, RDM's can't. Not while keeping 25% haste (or 24.6). Getting anywhere near 2.0 Ratio on targets T or higher takes outside buffs and lots of them. Accuracy is easy to fix now, it's linear and has scaled well withe monsters level and evasion increasing. Attack on the other hand hasn't scales very well with monsters defense, for every 1 point of defense the monster gained we need to gain 2 to cap attack out. Attack on gear is a static number so as our levels went up, as a percentage it was worth less and less. For each piece it's a decision, in this case 10 attack vs 2 DA, kinda a toss up and I tend to go with attack to get more out of food and percentage buffs. 2 DA might actually be worth more, we'll need to craftermath it out.

For the gloves, it's more then just movement speed vs no movement speed down. Brego is +5 STR for +1.25 fSTR. For DWing fSTR is incredibly important, it does more for you then the WAR.

CDC squash's Req inside Abyssea or vs anything where you don't have high cRatio. Excal helps Req out due to the increased attack it has, that is why it's the better TP weapon and helps Req get decent numbers. Req is extremely random due to it's 6 hit +DA nature (/NIN). You can get a WS off that has 6 7 or 8 hits, but those hits won't always land eve at 95% acc. CDC is a bit more consistent due to it's crit bonus, you can pretty much guarantee that at least one hit will be critical and about two on average (4 hits /NIN). If the first hit crits then you got a really big number. CDC being DEX based also helps, stacking DEX not only increase's WSC and acc, it also increase's dDEX which can result in capped base crit rate.

Xcal is one of those weapons I wish overrode enspells. Having that big proc on the main hand ~and~ having enspells proc when it doesn't would of been amazing. Oh well. XCal's add effect would have to proc for more then 590 on average to beat out full time enspells, otherwise it's pretty much a wash (assuming no special proc on off hand to make up for it).