Planned adjustments to Neo-Nyzul = THF no longer wanted? [Archive]

Vold

03-06-2012, 09:35 AM

I don't know, drop rates do start to show considerable difference at TH7+. I would really hope there's enough room for a career THF(and by career I mean wielding one of the big three weapons) but a renta THF might be pretty detrimental to nyzul floor 100 success. As long as the THF does wtf they are supposed to be doing as a THF(means masterfully working SATA to their DD advantage, among other JAs people have gotten lazy about because they're used to spamming evis in Abyssea)I don't see how any THF can't fit in any nyzul lineup. If the other 5 can't bring the heat it's not on the THFs head. We deliver the TH and our jobs are done, the extra DPS is a bonus at best, and it'll remain that way until SE realizes that it's not the size of the weapon that counts but how you use it. Means a dagger can be just as deadly as an assault rifle if put in the right hands.

Now if it's a career THF leading the way with a bunch of noobs thinking all they got to do is hit their empyrean WS macro every 100% tp, well then it's a different story. Karb can attest to that at the very least. No uber weapon makes up for slacking. Ever.

Karbuncle

03-06-2012, 12:57 PM

You know the boss's can still drop loot. You would want a thf for the TH at least, they also happen to make pretty good melee's.

Not sure, having your SCH(Then again... SCH may need /WHM or /RDM for haste... So..) come /THF, or replacing the THF with a BLU/??? with TH Set, will still probably be a net gain in kill speed. You'd be better served clearing out the deadweight and shooting for floor 100 than dragging a THF a long for the off chance of hitting a Boss floor on the way to 100.

Don't really even 'need' TH if you hit floor 100, As you'll all have a chance to instantly get 1 piece of floor 100 armor, the Drop from the boss would be a consolation prize, and any killspeed increase would serve you better in this regard.

THF is more of a liability in Neo-nyzul now, while we can kick ass and take names, Its a tough call in this type of event where Killspeed is super important, and any real DD who performs well will leave a THF in he dust kill-speed wise.

it'll have its use, But, Rather its enough of a use to give up kill speed for is up to question, and will likely be subject completely to the individual in charge of the run.

I personally, as sad as it is to say, Would likely drop a THF for a stronger more reliable DD, and Shoot for 100. Floor 80 is more of a consolation prize anyway. Though, Getting to floor 80 Isn't even about the floor 80 gear, its about killing floor 80 boss 25 times to get a floor 100, So even in that situation, Killspeed would be preferable to TH, More killspeed = Better chance of hitting 80+.

I don't know, drop rates do start to show considerable difference at TH7+.

Honest question, is this eyeballed, Or have i missed some TH Tests? I'm so far behind :(

Now if it's a career THF leading the way with a bunch of noobs thinking all they got to do is hit their empyrean WS macro every 100% tp, well then it's a different story. Karb can attest to that at the very least. No uber weapon makes up for slacking. Ever.

Couldn't agree more :3, I can't count on both hands how many Ukon WAR's i've out-dd' due to their general just laziness.

FrankReynolds

03-06-2012, 03:17 PM

DUnno, even with 100% drop rate, and a floor stop, it sounds like it still might be faster to shoot for 80 unless your group is using every cheat in the book.

Babekeke

03-06-2012, 04:13 PM

I would really hope there's enough room for a career THF(and by career I mean wielding one of the big three weapons) but a renta THF might be pretty detrimental to nyzul floor 100 success. As long as the THF does wtf they are supposed to be doing as a THF(means masterfully working SATA to their DD advantage, among other JAs people have gotten lazy about because they're used to spamming evis in Abyssea)

Really annoys me when I see THFs with 85/90 Twashtar, just because they had a good LS that's been spamming abyssea for the last year or so, who doesn't bother with SA/TA, or certainly TA at least.

"Im bettr than u coz I have empy and u dont!" no, f**k off and learn the dam job please!

Karbuncle

03-06-2012, 06:10 PM

DUnno, even with 100% drop rate, and a floor stop, it sounds like it still might be faster to shoot for 80 unless your group is using every cheat in the book.

Even so, Floor 80 is just a consolation prize when it comes to Nyzul, While Shooting for 80, You're probably better off replacing THF with a BLU and having him set TH.

Laphine

03-06-2012, 09:52 PM

I still believe we have more to contribute than damage at nyzul. Most floors are about killspeed, but enemies are weak, and the real deal is not fight time but idle time inbetween. 18% movement+ and flee helps a lot with that. For example if we had a kill all floor i would just flee to the depths of this floor and aggro/pull everything from there to where my party is at (fighting mobs i left at the start). If flee was down, chances are the THF dps will be higher too because we can reach enemies faster anyways. Mov+ will also help with lamp floor making us able to reach the deep ones faster. If the situation lines up, we could even pop 3 close by same time lamps with flee.

Aana

03-08-2012, 05:40 AM

Nyzul is generally squishy mobs and less than super capped haste. That is where thf easily matches everyone else. Sure, a crap thf wont keep up with a crap mnk, but if your party is a buncha crappy players they arent hitting 100 anyway. Those guys will be more limited by their coordination than their killing power.

The only thing that (i think) will change between old nyzul and new nyzul is you wont just fill the 6th spot with a crappy thf for TH on boss. Any thf that is worth their salt wont really be a hindrance on a stream of squishy mobs with less than perfect buffs and LOTS of running time. If anything, i feel this is one of the events thf IS good at. I cant tell you how much time ive saved because I could hide aggro on a lamp floor isntead of wasting time killing it like the warrior does, or fleeing back to the porter, or just letting a room full of shit wail on me whiffing while fighting the floor's target mob so we can just kill the NM and go up.

Nyzul is about being fast. 90% coordination/sneaking/manueverability/low maintenance (sneaking off by yourself to complete objectives and being self sufficient). 10% killing power. I really think Thfs lacking DD (from top end heavy DDs) is getting far to much attention for this event. Nyzul isnt all that much about killing super duper fast and more about cutting corners and coordination.

Only difference i see is not making space for ANY shitty thf just to TH the boss because the focus beween old and new NI has shifted from the boss fight (old) and more about climbing. Crappy TH whore thfs wont get an easy in to good groups that just need TH anymore. Good riddance.

Karbuncle

03-08-2012, 09:01 AM

True in some ways, but The vast majority of Nyzul Objectives involve Killing

Kill All
Kill Family
Kill Spec
Kill Mini-Boss
(Boss Floor)

Vs

Lamps. Order/Sametime/Code

Killspeed is a large factor in Nyzul Isle, much more than is commonly Known. A BST and BLU, two jobs that out-DD THF by leaps and bounds in Easy-mob style Events, Can easily be self-substaining and go off on their own to kill stuff. Fleeing Back to lamp really isn't as useful as it used to be when most groups keep a Mage at the lamp.

So being able to kill enemies even 5 seconds quicker each could be the difference between Hitting floor 80, Or hitting floor 70. Co-ordination plays a huge part, But even the most co-ordinated group will do nothing if they've got no Damage output.

Equally Geared and Skilled, a Group is better off Losing the THF For either a BST or a BLU. Both offer more survivability and more damage potential. One thing, as you mentioned, that might keep THF viable is their selection of Movement speed gear. That getting from A to B Quicker can be the saving grace of the job, Especially on floors like "Kill Spec".

But then again, If a THF Takes 10 Seconds to find a mob, and 20 seconds to kill it. and a BLU takes 20 Seconds to find, But only 10 seconds to kill, It balances out. (BLU Can dispatch weak mobs much quicker than THF because of the spells).

Its a toss up. THF Has its uses, But its up to the individual to determine if those are useful. As i said in my earlier post, Floor 80 armor is really just a consolation prize, Floor 100 Armor is the big deal, and it being essentially "100% Drop" from floor 100 means The goal would likely be Shooting for 100, Hitting 80 only as a "well, okay..." situation. And even then, Killing the 80 boss is more for "Kill it 25 to get a floor 100 piece" and not for the floor 80 armor.

floor 80 Armor is good on its own, But aren't the real prize.

Starry

03-08-2012, 10:48 AM

Seriously, I like THF as much as the next guy; but anyone thinking that THF is ANYWHERE close to the DD/KillSpeed/Efficency of other classes in Nyzul must have some very...very large blinders on..

Aana

03-08-2012, 10:55 AM

Kill All: Only floor type that is primarily killing
Kill Family: Balance between sneaking/walking and killing.
Kill Spec: Kill ONE DC MOB. 95% runing/sneaking
Kill Mini-Boss: Kill ONE (slightly harder mob). 85% running
(Boss Floor) Zerg. 0 runnign time.
Lamps: (ideally) no kills.

Yes most of the objectives have something to do with killing things. The ALL excet boss floor are mostly running around in circles. Most of nyzul is running around to find the couple of action items on the floor.

Parse your next ein run with Kparse. See how much time you actually spend engaged. Now consider how much it wont matter. 10/20 seconds? sure can make a dif. Does dropping some shit for brain thf for a good DD help a lot? yeah. Will a competent thf be some ball and chain like you make it sound? no.

I get it. You think Thf doesnt have a role and is the rdm of melee. You dont have to exaggerate how bad thf is and the sky is falling. As i said, this will only mean that shit for brains TH whore thfs dont get an automatic invite as the 6th slot in a NI party like at 75. Any good thf will be an asset to a group unless you can just whip out a similarly skilled player out of your ass to replace a good thf. So shitty thfs dont get a free ride to 100 and god thfs can play. Thats fine with me.

Karbuncle

03-08-2012, 11:06 AM

Read at your own Risk :)

Also, Despite all of the HRRRNG in the above, I actually don't really feel THF needs more attention than say, RDM. THF Still has its points where it can be invited for whatever reason. Theres jobs in worst conditions.

Aana

03-08-2012, 01:05 PM

The problem is you keep polarizing every post with phrases like:

THF is not a good job, Its not useful at anything
Just because a job is 90% of another job doesnt mean its shit. If that is what you subscribe to then every job is shit except one unless they are all identical and that diminishes the value of everything that isnt the best and, quite frankly, is the elitest bullcrap thats been behind a lot of stupidness in this game. 'If your not 1st your last' is a recipe for flames.

"useless" isn't the best word to describe it, "Less than needed" is a better term
At least this is a more balanced approach that wont throw everyone who actually likes thf on the defensive.

I get the whole thing. In a vacuum 2 equivalently skilled players, there are often reasons to choose the 'other' player over the thf. But that isnt how it plays out in-game. You dont just have infinite players to choose from of equal skill. If people i know are setting up a NI run, not a one will flinch at me coming thf because I am still one of the BEST choices they can make because i dont suck. They dont really have an option to say...."well....we dont want a thf so were going to get this imaginary equally skilled person standing next to you that happens to have a pimped out 'real' DD! PEACE!". That isnt how this game works. If you are a good player, you get to participate because the events are designed so that a group of GOOD players can achieve the goals. If you are a such a player, whatever job you have focused your attention on will be more than capable of completing the task.

No one in their right mind will say Thf has the same damage potential as an 80% hasted war. But that doesnt make thf obsolete. The question is, can thf be a capable and useful member of a group to complete the task (in this case NI). The answer is yes. Is there room for thf to be improved, sure, but this "if your not 1st at anything your last in everything" is getting really old. As big as i am about spending hours calculating and min-maxing for this game, this game has way more to consider than just the 'perfect' setups/buffs/situations. People arent equally skilled and geared. Because of that thf always has a chance.

Beating the bejesus out of 95% of the server because you dont suck IS something. Just because you cant beat the top 5% doesnt mean you have no place in the world. Quite frankly, any set of DDs that are in the top tier of players can do NI. Will the group with a thf have a 5% lower success rate or whatever? Maybe so. But who gives a shit. Its not nearly as dramatic as you make it sound. A little love and koom-bai-ya does make a slightly less than perfect setup still fun. A group that looses 1 more of 20 runs doesnt start a mutiny that kills the thf and reps him.

I have NEVER been ostracized the way you describe thf to be based on its inherent inferiority. I dont know what deuchbags you play with that kick you so they can have a 2% better success rate.

TLDR: Even though, according to you, my mythic drg can basically do everything my thf does, but better, I still dont use it for everything and its not because I like being inefficient. Its because Thf is still useful and even preferred for some things and darn good at em. (Voidwatch is not one of those things, but that is because its shit for procs. The same reason Smn went from lolSmn to must have for VW even though its bottom rung DD and support).

Karbuncle

03-08-2012, 01:32 PM

I'm really starting to like our conversations. Don't ever disappoint me.

Choosing a job over another job on a whim doesn't mean Job A is > Job B, Or everytime i sat in my mog house Trying to figure out which job i was going to Campaign on, the Dynamic Shift of the Balance would collapse. I chose PUP over WAR, PLD over DRK, etc etc depending on my mood!

Aana

03-08-2012, 02:11 PM

Sorry, But coming in second place isn't a victory, No amount of pep-talk or High-school Football-team Silver-Medal logic will change that. Many jobs suffer from this, But a lot of jobs have something that makes them stand out. THF however, does not.

So yes, Being second place is losing. Being a Mediocre Combination of performance other jobs can do better, Is losing. I want to believe you, and maybe its just being on Asura, but THF and RDM's aren't swimming in invites, Because they aren't good jobs.

They perform some roles Adequately, but that does not mean the job is fine.

1st off i never said the job is perfect and needs no attention. You know that by now and implying that I think it is is the farce.

2md, The above quote basically sums up our differences. I make 2 million a year. My friend makes 1.9 million a year. I guess hes just a broke bastard that doesnt deserve to live and might as well just be a welfare queen. Just because your not the richEST doesnt make you not RICH. Just because your not the best dd doesnt remove you from the world. You still do more damage/make more money than 99% of vanadiel/the world. Yet you dismiss it as completely meaningless. I dont. If i make 1.9 mil and my buddy makes 2, im not living in a cave of inferiority complex that im not as good as he is even though i work just as hard.

The very idea that you HAVE to be the best at something in and of itself is an idea you have created. Why cant a job be 90% of another one, but play differently.

I give a shit, Many people give a shit. Not everyone plays FFXI to casually stroll along with no real goal, half-assing things and throwing their hands up and going "Oh well " when they time out on Floor 50.

And here you (again) GREATLY exaggerate the ball and chain that thf is to a group. Yes. By replacing a good DD with a good thf your group goes from beating down 100 with time to spare to timing out on floor 50. Thats EXACLTY how the game works. /facepalm.

Contrary to your mindset, i AM OK knowing that I have to work a little more to get the same returns as other jobs on the DD front and that my pinnacle of performance is lower than the pinnacle of other jobs. The question isnt "what is the the BEST at" for me. The question is "Can thf be a useful member of a team to complete an objective". That is very different than "In an imaginary world where I get pick of the litter from a menagerie of equivalent players and equivalent gear of all jobs, would i ever pick thf". One represents the game world, the other represents the hypothetical.

That is what i mean when i say i dont give a shit if its not perfect. The job has ENOUGH potential to BECOME an asset. I have to work harder to reach that status, but im fine with that. To take your car example i see it more like this.

ThfMobile has different models. Base only goes 20MPH. Mid level trim can go 50 MPH. Sports edition can get 80 MPH. WarMobile base is 40MPH, mid is 70MPH and sport model is 100MPH. BrdMobile only goes 30MPH but comes with 50 gallons of jet fuel it gives to everyone and then attaches a grappling hook to the WarMobile to keep up.

My goal is to get from point A to point B in 2 hours. The distance is 140 miles. I need a 2 people to go minimum of 70 so i need a Sport model Thf or a mid grade War. Both get me to where i want to go. 2 premium wars would just do it faster and pick up a chick on the way with their glowing epeen and flames spewing out the exhaust.

Thf is 'fast enough' to participate if you get the high end model. Obviously WarMobile is a better car. You can go faster with less money, but If i just like the design of ThfMobile and want to make it work, and can make it work, who gives a shit. Its Adequate.

Adequate.

Adequate.

Would I mind getting a turbo charger put in for free? Heck no! Am I going to DEMAND the dealership give me one to keep up with WarMobile? Nope. I can still get to where i need to go in the time i need to get there.

Is a thf slowing down my convoy to point B? Yeah.
Will we get there in the time required anyway? Yeah.
Could ThfMobile be better? Yeah.
Should it just drive off the road and explode in a burst of flames because it doesnt deserve to be on the road with WarMobile because it isnt as fast and therefore has NO VALUE AT ALL?

No.

If i can work hard and make 1.9 million and im black, but my friend works just as hard but makes 2mil because hes white and gets paid more, is it fair? no. Can we both live happily ever after as rich fat bastards? Fuck yeah. You can spend your time fighting the great injustice that we should all get paid equally. I personanly cant be arsed to fight for truth and justice when im doing MORE than fine right where I am. 1.9 is 'enough' and 'adequate' for me to live happily knowing I can still make more than 99% of everyone else. Thf not being #1 doesnt mean i cant be happy with the job class even if its not 100% 'fair' to me. Im sorry if you feel useless if your not #1 at something. I actually can be happy being 'pretty good' at everything even if im not the best at anything.

Karbuncle

03-08-2012, 02:37 PM

Edit: you know, When i type this out, It honestly never feels THIS long.

Starry

03-08-2012, 03:42 PM

So in either of those extremely drawn out posts did anyone really explain WHY you would choose to bring thief over another class to nyzul? In this day and age where 99's are just a days abyssea burn away and you can get af+2 while just doing an empy or other classes gear; there's no real reason to bring a 'subpar job'.

The problem comes at the content, not the class(so much). Thief isn't where it could(and arguablly) should be, but the problem comes more to the mentality of the population and the content. Nyzul for instance is mainly a slaughter fest at the fastest possible speed; which means heavy DD's and minimal support. Thief, regardless of skill level, lacks the DD ability of 'average' heavy DD's[especially outside of abyssea].

Obviously I'm not saying NEVER EVER NAHNAHBOOBOOO bring THF to nyzul(pre-abyssea I brought my thief to every nyzul[because of my group make up]) and we did just as good as the next guy. The problem extends to the population, after determining how the event will be played. While a good THF may not extremely increase your chances of failboating; the chance of doing so is greater because of how the class plays. In the sense that in order for X thief to be 'on par' with Ydd it requires this gear and a lot of 'skill'. While all Ydd has to do is melee in one set of gear and occasionally hit a ws macro.

The discrepancy in skill level NEEDED to be effective is so large that many people forming a PUG would much rather look for classes that require less 'hope' they won't be bad(in this case war or sam). Wether people know they do this or not, I'm not certain; but if I'm forming a pug(for whatever reason) I go the same route.

Aana

03-08-2012, 03:52 PM

You are still harping the same point presented as fact when it is an opinion. That you NEED to be as good as a warrior to be useful. The problem is, there ARE no 1.95 million dollar homes in this game to buy. There is not one. single. thing. in this game that thf cannot help a team to win if the are good at being a thf. You keep repeating liability, liability, liability as if thf is breaking an otherwise completely successful event.

Does thf need to work harder to do more damage? Duh. Does a pup have to work harder to do more damage? Rdm? Smn? ANY JOB THAT ISNT WAR? War is #1. If everyone is getting their butts expelled for not being #1 then why isnt everyone playing war? Whats the point if your not being 110% efficient?

Why on earth would anyone play mnk when it offers NOTHING a war cant do better?

Because it can get the job done despite being a SlowMobile thats why and some people like the design better. Or the heated seats, or some other amenity that WarMobile doesnt have that has nothing to do with performance, but with preference.

You can get to 100 with a thf in your party. You can beat any VW mob in the game. You can do any and every event in the world on thf without pushing some auto-die button just like you can 'downgrade' from a War+War DD setup to a War+Mnk setup. Or a Mnk+Mnk. Or Drk+Drg. They all get the job done. What world are you in that demands efficiency at all costs? Where are your allis of 3 cors, 3 brds, 3 whms and 9 Wars? Where are they? If this is so damn important that we cannot be without 110% POWA then why does anyone do anything but support+WarMobile?

They dont exist is where. Player variance and player job preference mean that there are good players scattered over every job. And the variance a jobs Minimum and Maximum performance based on player capability OVERLAPS ENOUGH that virtually every job can be competative. Furthermore, the bar to complete virtually any task in this game falls in that overlapping region.
This means that pretty much ANY job can be an asset to a group. Some jobs work harder than others to do so, but there is not 1.95 million dollar home in the gated community of Warriors.

So you want to achieve a goal, you find everyone that is GREAT and go for it because a mixed alli of great players exists. A homogenous group of great players on teh same jobs DOESNT exist for us to just waltz out to jeuno and shout for.

Its really this simple: Can a thf carry their weight? If the goal is 100, can i bring my thf and carry my weight as a party slot?

Am I the weakest link that should be replaced?
The imaginary 'ideal' world where everyone is perfect on every job and we have our pick of the litter: Yes.
When i log in and play: No

The question isnt: Would I be better if i went back and time, rerolled my char and played war all these years instead? Its: Can I make this group better by joining it today, right now, as I am. Being 2nd place in perfect hypothetical world doesnt mean much when you can just practice a little harder in the real world and still be 1st. Is it 'right' or 'fair' that i have to practice harder to be 1st? Nope. Does it matter if you can be 1st anyway? Not to me, but apparently to you. Yay opinions!

I cant possibly believe im about to say this. The purpose is to be (generally) successful while having fun because its a game. If the only way you have fun is being in the most optimum possible situation that exclude anything less than a WarMobile EVEN when a lolThfMobile can achieve the same goal without making the world implode, then that is your schtick. I have fun doing the best I can with what I got so long as its still 'good enough' to complete the task and get to where i want to go and Im having fun doing it.

Note on your issues with shout groups. People shouting are about what they 'think' is best. Just because some idiot in jeuno wants Sam+War ONRY and turns down your thf doesnt mean your thf would not be an asset to that group. It means that guy shouting is wrong because (chances are very, very high) that (just like me getting asked to come rng over Thf for DD on VW when we have a rng for procs already) my thf is a stronger asset to kill things. My thf can beat my rng. The guy shouting doesnt know that. THat doesnt mean me going as thf is a liability vs my rng, it means dumb shouter is WRONG.

Karbuncle

03-08-2012, 04:01 PM

I'm running out of creative ways to say "Just because a Good THF can out-DD a mediocre WAR doesn't mean THF is good, I can Out-Melee a Perle WAR on RDM, Doesn't mean RDM melee is good".

The discrepancy in skill level NEEDED to be effective is so large that many people forming a PUG would much rather look for classes that require less 'hope' they won't be bad(in this case war or sam). Wether people know they do this or not, I'm not certain; but if I'm forming a pug(for whatever reason) I go the same route.

This is the best way to put it. Good DD, Bad DD's, Good THFs, Bad THFs, point is, THF can be really fucking terrible if played wrong, If played right, They can be Pretty Decent at best. a WAR requires far less effort to do Well.

. If the only way you have fun is being in the most optimum possible situation that exclude anything less than a WarMobile EVEN when a lolThfMobile can achieve the same goal without making the world implode, then that is your schtick.

I love playing THF, its fun, exciting. That doesn't mean I'll be forever content being a Mediocre DD thats nothing more than the sum of my Treasure Hunter level. If you're comfortable being a Mediocre DD That excels at nothing and has to be perfected just to barely catch up to a Decent Melee, Thats your Schtick.

Me, Personally, I want my job to be more than the sum of its Treasure Hunter gear.

Regardless of how you may view it, Thief requires heavy amounts of maintenance to even Scratch the bottom of a Half-Decent WAR, a Job that requires massive amounts of effort and gear to just perform "OKAY" Is flawed in itself.

A Job should not need to be perfected just to perform at a Medium-Level. In case it was lost or you didn't read it (ha!), I'll repeat again, Its not so much i want THF to be a better DD, I want THF to be able to do more than just upgrade TH, and Swing its dagger to almost contribute. The job needs more to it than being a half-rate DD with TH Attached to its hip.

The job is flawed from its core outwards.

Babekeke

03-08-2012, 04:05 PM

2nd, The above quote basically sums up our differences. I make 2 million a year. My friend makes 1.9 million a year. I guess hes just a broke bastard that doesnt deserve to live and might as well just be a welfare queen. Just because your not the richEST doesnt make you not RICH. Just because your not the best dd doesnt remove you from the world. You still do more damage/make more money than 99% of vanadiel/the world. Yet you dismiss it as completely meaningless.

But if you have to make 10 million in a year between 5 people, you take 5 that make 2 mil. And a WHM to feed them while they work!

Starry

03-08-2012, 04:23 PM

Ignorance is bliss I guess? Let's take a ride on the Logiiiiiiiccccccccccc Traiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnn

You are still harping the same point presented as fact when it is an opinion. That you NEED to be as good as a warrior to be useful.
Opinion? Fact? I think you're not quite sure about the vocabulary you are using. Want some facts - here's some.
>Nyzul is an area of the game best played in the 'zerg mentality'
>Thief does not play well into the 'zerg mentality'

At no point in my post did I display any 'opinion' as fact, in actuality it's your comments that are doing the aforementioned problem.

Does thf need to work harder to do more damage? Duh. Does a pup have to work harder to do more damage? Rdm? Smn? ANY JOB THAT ISNT WAR? War is #1. If everyone is getting their butts expelled for not being #1 then why isnt everyone playing war? Whats the point if your not being 110% efficient?

I think you're trying to be funny? Or trying a strawman argument...? Can't quite get it down. Regardless I'll treat it as if you are actually being serious. There is a large difference between bringing 'heavy DD's that are comparable', 'bring 6 war's durrr' and 'thief is on par'. Diversification isn't always bad, as long as it's the optimal diversification. Bringing 6 war's is not optimal, just like the mentality of always subbing dancer isn't optimal either.

Why on earth would anyone play mnk when it offers NOTHING a war cant do better?

If you're being serious here you either

A) Lack any knowledge of gameplay mechanics
B) Don't want to acknowledge said facts

You can get to 100 with a thf in your party.
POIDH?

They dont exist is where. Player variance and player job preference mean that there are good players scattered over every job. And the variance a jobs Minimum and Maximum performance based on player capability OVERLAPS ENOUGH that virtually every job can be competative.

Absolutely not the truth. Good try though.

This means that pretty much ANY job can be an asset to a group. Some jobs work harder than others to do so, but there is not 1.95 million dollar home in the gated community of Warriors.

There's a difference between 'being an asset when there's room for 1' and 'taking up the slot from a more optimal class'. The fact you can't distinguish such simple logic is mind boggling.

Its really this simple: Can a thf carry their weight? If the goal is 100, can i bring my thf and carry my weight as a party slot?

In nyzul 'thief' can't carry their weight when you're talking about a DPS race. If you think thief(of any caliber) is remotely close to DPS possibilites of casual Bob on other classes, you're just trolling at this point.

The question isnt: Would I be better if i went back and time, rerolled my char and played war all these years instead? Its: Can I make this group better by joining it today, right now, as I am. Being 2nd place in perfect hypothetical world doesnt mean much when you can just practice a little harder in the real world and still be 1st. Is it 'right' or 'fair' that i have to practice harder to be 1st? Nope. Does it matter if you can be 1st anyway? Not to me, but apparently to you. Yay opinions!

Thief being a subpar DD is not opinion, it's quite fact. Can even be proven with simple math and simple gameplay knowledge.

I have fun doing the best I can with what I got so long as its still 'good enough' to complete the task and get to where i want to go and Im having fun doing it.
It's too bad that this is axillary and has no bearing on anything you quoted.

Note on your issues with shout groups. People shouting are about what they 'think' is best. Just because some idiot in jeuno wants Sam+War ONRY and turns down your thf doesnt mean your thf would not be an asset to that group. It means that guy shouting is wrong because (chances are very, very high) that (just like me getting asked to come rng over Thf for DD on VW when we have a rng for procs already) my thf is a stronger asset to kill things. My thf can beat my rng. The guy shouting doesnt know that. THat doesnt mean me going as thf is a liability vs my rng, it means dumb shouter is WRONG.

If you're thf can out DD you're ranger; especially in VW you're atrocious - in all honesty. A half naked ranger with a decent bow; would be hard-pressed not to out DD an above average thief. Not to mention the large gap in skill to play effectively. Then again, this is a simple concept you still haven't grasped.

Karbuncle

03-08-2012, 04:29 PM

Yay :D, one thing though;

POIDH?

Theres a pick of the first Floor 100 Win i can think of on BG, Theres a THF in the party (and a PUP! lol), But at the same time, Lets say they were using the FFXI Equivalent of Steroids if i remember correctly. So I'm not sure if you can consider it a legit run.

Edit:

THF/WAR, WAR/SAM, SAM/WAR, MNK/WAR, BLU/WHM, SCH/RDM

Was their set up and yah, FFXI Steroids were involved.

Starry

03-08-2012, 04:41 PM

Yea, I know about the one located elsewhere, but we all know how /that/ was done. I haven't seen a legitimate 90+ yet with a thief[not that it's the thf's fault - but goes to show population mentality]. Much less 100[as he states]. In fact, I don't even think any of the pictures I've seen of 80boss kills include a thief <.<

Which even more hilariously, this is during the time that thf would be more useful - as the new system isn't in place.

Aana

03-08-2012, 05:13 PM

(My previous post was aimed at Karbuncle since yours popped up while i was writing and didnt see it, so a couple points dont really make sense in the context Starry, yay miscommunication)

Math world shows potential. When i log in is actual which (as good little math people know) is never the potential and (in this case) heavily swung by individual players.

If a PLAYER X goes to EVENT Y with PLAYERS ABCDE, will PLAYER X be an asset?
If a JOB X goes to EVENT Y with JOBS ABCDE, will JOB X be an asset?

I friggin live in the math world, but at least i know when to see how things play out. Can you not see the difference in those to questions? The two of you continue to try to tell me that I am not useful. I keep telling you that I am useful, even on a sub-optimal job. Am I, repeat, I, an asset or liability to achieving a goal. The job class of thf has enough wiggle room that it can be played strongly enough by a player to be an asset to a group of other PLAYERS. At no point has ANYONE even remotely hinted that the thf CLASS is as strong as the War CLASS. Keep telling everyone what they already know and agree with. I was aghast when you layed out the LOOOOGIIIIC TRAAAIN that warrior does more damage than Thf. Mind. Blown.

Math and potential are great tools. But they are tools. Learn to use them properly. Is job X more DD capable than job Y? Good to know. But, when i log in, do i do enough damage to warrant my existence (through greater effort)? If yes, the question then becomes is the extra effort required to BE an asset 'excessive' to the point that it needs adjustment, perhaps, but not once has anyone actually tried to make that argument in this thread anyway.

BossMan: You know what would be ideal? A PHD in accounting for this position! Itd be perfect! Theyd be stellar! ALL our cashiers need to be PHDs in accounting because its efficient! If everyone has PHDs, the accounting ones are the best to take for these cashier positions!
MidBossMan: Suure boss....>_>

next week:
BossMan: Why dont we have a PHD in accounting here!? Who is this worthless POS high school graduate here!?
MidBossMan: Well....sure an accounting PHD would be 'better' but....there arent exactly thousands of accountant PHDs looking for work in our area.....and we dont really NEED that much firepower anyway for this job >_>

Keep living in your imaginary world where everyone needs to be have a PHD in damage to be relevant. In-Game, a myriad of people can DO THE JOB REQUIRED. You dont need a PHD in damage to do an entry level damage job.

You guys keep acting like its a race when the HUGE vast majority of this game is about crossing the finish line. Why the hell do you NEED to rape a VW mob in under 5 minutes? Does the world end if you take 6? You have friggin 30. Does it make 1 damn bit of difference if you take 16 minutes to kill something instead of 15? If you make 10 million a year, do you really NEED to make 11? You can live happily ever after with either. This isnt about getting kicked to the street and not making enough to feed your family so you need more money, just like at this point every job can do enough damage to kill pretty much anything. You just want more damage/money so you can have more damage/money even though all your basic needs and future security have been met.

Is there a line where even at maximum (mathematical) efficiency thf cannot maintain? Of course there is. So long as there are limitations, there are limits. Amazing i know. But is that even relevant? Is there a place in the ACTUAL GAME that the bar for success is THAT damn high that a thf can no longer be successful? The only possible event in all of the game that is even remotely conceivable to that point 'might' be new NI, but I seriously doubt that a group of great players which happens to include a thf is signing a pact of failure. It is still very new and I dont have enough experience with this specific event to unequivocally say that it is simply not feasible for a player that happens to be a competent thf is not capable of assisting more than hindering a group. But I seriously doubt the bar is so high that thf is simply incapable of keeping up.

No one is saying thf keeps up with a war on paper in perfect world of magical super buffness (though given the right variable tweeks it can and does happen anyway). The question of thf balance is a practical one. Can it be played wel enough that it can succesfully participate in in-game content and succeed. Does the job itself constitute an insurmountable hurdle to success? I have yet to see anything that demonstrates that the job class has prevented a player USING that class to be successful (the closest thing to it so far is NI, which I have yet to do enough of to pass any real judgement, but based on previous NI experience and my limited new NI experience, i see no job mechanics hurdle to great to overcome.)

Karbuncle

03-08-2012, 06:54 PM

THF is better than nothing at all.

THF is worse than (insert Any DD here).

You're not hindering the group directly, But you're hindering them indirectly by taking the spot that could be filled by a job that will perform your task better. Rather is directly hindering, or indirectly hindering, THF is a hindrance in most events, because its taking the spot of a job that could perform the task better than THF.

Pretty simple concept to grasp. Its called opportunity cost. Party spots are finite.

Aana

03-08-2012, 11:43 PM

The concept is simple but it is based in the ideal world that has ZERO practical meaning. There is no doppelganger warrior following me around of equal skill and gear that wants to take my spot at everything I do. If I join a group, the (vast) majority of the time the group is better because im there instead of who they 'would' have picked. The end. There isnt some imaginary warrior to rep me following me around to whisk everything away from me at any moment.

Its not an 'indirect hindrance' for me to go thf. Its an imaginary hindrance that only exists in ideal world. In the actual game, players can overcome these problems on whatever job they so choose. Its not like I dont realize that if i played war the same way i do thf that i wouldnt do more damage, but i dont WANT to play war, so i dont, and that is not a barrier to my ability to be an enhancing aspect to any group i join.

Again, just because Thf is, by default, less damaging than war, does not make me as a player on thf a waste of a space. I can still add enough benefit to a group to justify my place in the party over the 'next' choice on their list because this isnt all a giant statistical excercise where we assume infinite occurrences of any event and say "hey, wars avg better than thfs therefore War>thf and therefore no thf should be used. ever." We have a limited sample that is impacted by human elements. You are taking aggregated data and applying it to individual cases. Protip: That doesnt work.

You can tell me a warrior is better than me till your blue in the face, but I log in and can only think of ~2 warriors that actually fit that idea which i have regular run-ins with, let alone compete directly with me at any given moment. This isnt a perfeect statistical bell curve.

Babekeke

03-09-2012, 02:42 AM

BossMan: You know what would be ideal? A PHD in accounting for this position! Itd be perfect! Theyd be stellar! ALL our cashiers need to be PHDs in accounting because its efficient! If everyone has PHDs, the accounting ones are the best to take for these cashier positions!
MidBossMan: Suure boss....>_>

next week:
BossMan: Why dont we have a PHD in accounting here!? Who is this worthless POS high school graduate here!?
MidBossMan: Well....sure an accounting PHD would be 'better' but....there arent exactly thousands of accountant PHDs looking for work in our area.....and we dont really NEED that much firepower anyway for this job >_>

This is a brilliant example... for someone aiming for floor 60.

Karbuncle

03-09-2012, 06:59 AM

Aana

03-09-2012, 09:53 AM

Stupid interwebz ate my post ><

It should be quite clear by now that Thief isn't a happy camper just because you can find spots for it. None of the situations I'm making up are imaginary, They happen daily. To me, and others like me. Just because you are lucky enough to not come across it does not mean its happening, Nor does it change the fact everything I've said is right.

You can continue to live in your bubble of "I go THF to places, So that means every THF Does obviously", When you want to step out in to reality land, I'll still be here with my arms open. Because I'll be not invited to voidwatch.

And you can continue to (falsely) believe that a direct damage boost will make you popular for VW.

I have one of, if not (arguably) the STRONGEST DDS IN THE GAME (Ryunohige Drg), yet I am often requested to go on my tertiary (and infinitely more gimp by comparison) rng to VW. And you ACTUALLY believe that getting a few points of dagger damage, or another tier of DW, or SA doing 2x damage, or another 5 traits of crit damage bonus or any damage boost that we could actually get are going to make you 'acceptable' to VW when the strongest damn DD in the entire game is told "no thanks". That is naive at best, mind bogglingly delusional at worst. You want to be desirable in VW? There is 1 solution. Make thf a proc machine. Thats it. That is the only way to get into VW. That is why they want your smn. That is why they drop the strongest DD in the game for a crappy rng. That is why no amount of damage will actually fix your most persistent complaint in all your posts (thf in VW).

Damage wont make thf more acceptable unless we become the #1 DD, and even then (for VW in particular) it wont solve everything. As you so succinctly put it, if your not 1st, your last. So what the hells the point of going from 10th to 9th (or whatever rank we actually are)?

I do not want nor need a damage boost. There are ~13ish DD jobs. We arent going to win the DD rat race. War will always be a better DD than thf. Get used to it. There is no conceivable way we would ever recieve a damage boost that puts us on THAT level. I want thf to expand beyond the DD rat race because that is something we CAN do. Damage wont make thf more popular because there is no way to stand out from ~13 other DDs by doing enough damage when we are predestined to never be at the top of the pile. So screw damage.

Any damage boost (that we could EVER actually obtain in this game) will not be enough to transform thf into a desirable job through DD prowess. Thf needs a new heading, and damage is not it.

Karbuncle

03-09-2012, 10:10 AM

And you can continue to (falsely) believe that a direct damage boost will make you popular for VW.

Yah, You obviously don't read ever.

http://awesomegifs.com/wp-content/uploads/jerry-seinfeld-done.gif

I'll leave you with this final message: I've always believed THF needs to be a slightly better DD to compete, But not once have i suggested making THF a slightly better DD would make it useful. In fact, The majority of my Suggestions are aimed at giving THF More party friendly buffs, Buffs to itself, Debuffs to Enemies, and over-all more uses outside TH that give it its own unique contribution to the party.

A few have been aimed at DD buffs, sure, but Its not only what Thief needs, and i've said that a thousand times.

Learn to read.

Aana

03-09-2012, 10:18 AM

I can read.

I've always believed THF needs to be a slightly better DD to compete
I disagree. Plain and simple because....dun dun DUN!

But not once have i suggested making THF a slightly better DD would make it useful
Thanks for making my ENTIRE point for me. That is all i ever said. I ahve agreed with you in other threads about some of your other, non-damage suggestions. But your continued call to more damage I do not see any value in. I have never once said thf needs no updates. I have said innumerable times that damage is not that update we need.

Karbuncle

03-09-2012, 10:28 AM

Nevermind :)

Starry

03-09-2012, 10:47 AM

This thread has just been, a full face LOL.

Babekeke

03-09-2012, 04:00 PM

This post is in the wrong thread... this thread is about THF not being useful in Neo Nyzul Isle post update. You think you're posting int the 'add a bit more damage to daggers' thread.

The long and the short of it is... floor 100 after update = 100% drop for KI to get you your choice of drop from the boss.
This means you're better off taking every precautin to make sure you are going to reach floor 100.
This means taking the best DDs that you can.
This means not taking THF, because THF isn't one of the best DDs in the game, due to the fact that we have TH... and more and more content is being added to make TH obsolete.

This is the whole point to the thread guys... not "If me and my friends try super hard and get lucky with the floors, THF is still good enough to get to 100." It's that more and more content is being added to make TH obsolete.

I just hope to god that the items that drop in Legion aren't total crap, and the only good items are from the points, because then I might as well retire THF.

Aana

03-10-2012, 12:59 AM

The above brings us right back to "if your not 1st your last" we will never be the best DD so we will always be 'obsolete' by that measure in an event like nyzul. What exactly are you proposing to fix it? We arent wars. We will never be wars. We will never kill as fast as wars. So what exactly are you proposing we do about events that are timed where killing is oh so important?

*We wont ever be anywhere near what the top end DD classes are
*Some events have DD requirements that might remove lower end jobs

Conundrum. Some jobs arent good at every event. Its a cop out. It sucks. But there is no way around it without homogenizing every job class to be on the same level and it is quite clear that will never happen. I guess smn needs to do that kind of damage because they have no place in NI either. Some jobs suck at some events and we cant be good at all of them because they require different things to be good at. Damage is never what we will be good at, so we need a new direction.

What exactly would you do about this problem then? Whine that thf cant do enough damage? Newsflash: we never will. We arent wars and sams. Smn never will be in NI either. This event blows for thf. Almost exactly like VW and every other event inthe game that isnt stupid easy, it favors some jobs over others because they have certain traits. This one is damage. VW is plethora of monster targeting abilities. The only way to make thf 'useful' would be to make the drops heavily influenced by TH and remove the wonderful update that just made it more accessable and go back to being IMPOSSIBLE for everyone but the top 1%. Thats retarded.

Laphine

03-10-2012, 01:27 AM

Aana i thought you were with me defending thfs usability on Nyzul lol.

So much has been posted now...i won't reply to anything but the following:

The difference in damage between an ace heavy dd and an ace thf was really overly exaggerated. Sure we suck at super haste, but even near capped haste, i doubt thf would lose by more than 40% (this is a recollection from that other time i played around with the spreadsheets). And if the contest figures haste spell only, thf actually has potentential to beat war (certainly not by 40%). For instance, the thf of that group that did reach floor 100 was no doubt very competitive (tho idk his gear).

I'd like to exemplify that sitution of ace thf vs ace war. Let's make the dd set up 2 wars and a thf. Everyone being the best of the best. If each war has 50% more output the thf, replacing this thf for another war is only a ~12% increase in kill speed. 3 wars bring up a potential damage of 3, but having a thf instead lowers it to 2.67. If Nyzul was all about kill speed, 12% loss could even come as bad as 3 whole minutes. Nyzul is not entirely about kill speed tho. We don't kill stuff nonstop for 30 minutes; there is A LOT of moving around and idle time.

This is where it gets bad tho. I have no idea on the relationship between fight time vs moving time. And it would certainly be cool to complete the analysis with a real number. If fight time equals moving time, bringing someone with no mov+ could even be as much of a liability as not bringing the perfect set up.

Aana

03-10-2012, 06:26 AM

I do believe thf is perfectly capable in nyzul, but if i post a screenshot of my groups getting to 100, then it will just be "oh well your the exception with your mandau and twashtar". Some people have already decided that thfs damage makes it impossible, even, when by their own admission, they exaggerate the discrepancy. So I ask what is the solution? If you throw up your hands and say only top tier DDs can be useful in NI, yet acknowledge thf will never be on the upper crust (in a vaccum) then what? Suck it up and accept you have to work harder, or QQ about it. Everyone here accepts we will never be on war level, yet (some) say if you are not on war level then you are a liability to any group. If thats what you believe there is no discussion to be had. Thf is doomed.

I dont see how making TH more important improves the situation. All it does is make it like it was at 75. you make a group of 5 people, then you get anyone with AAs and TK to poke the final boss. TH was an automatic spot just by having it. No skill required. No differentiation between someone leveling thf for a TH whore and a badass that tears it up. That is not a solution to job woes is to make any gimp a REQUIRED member of EVERYTHING.

I dont want to go back to that where having +TH gear gives you an automatic slot. I want us to be like every other class. You dont just get 'any' whm. You get the ones that dont suck. You dont just get 'any' war. You get the ones that can kick some ass. You dont just get 'any' thf...oh wait yes you do because thats how TH works. TH can suck it and im GLAD it has less impact on nyzul. A jobs value should not be based on how much +TH gear they own. I far prefer to become a valued member on my own merits, and I will continue to do so, even in this evil Neo NI that is soooooo unfair. And ill have fun doing it too. Thf is more than capable, but some have made up their minds that it isnt.

Karbuncle

03-10-2012, 07:05 AM

Look. For the 1000th Time, You believing in the heart of the cards doesn't suddenly make THF a good idea when it comes to Nyzul. You trying your hardest isn't going to change Math. You trying your hardest won't make THF an Ideal choice.

This isn't a Barney Special, Unfortunately for reality, Ideal choices are generally what the majority go with.

No ones suggesting that you can't reach floor 100 With a THF, At least not me, We're saying your odds will be better without one, replacing it with a stronger equally geared real DD. If TH Has no uses in said event, THF has no uses in said event that can't be done better by someone else.

We're not saying its got no place, If you want to do it? Good for you. Its just got no place in an "ideal" set up, and unfortunately in pretty much every shout group or Pick up group "Ideal" is the way to go because it minimizes the chances of screw ups, and unfortunately for a large population of players, unlike yourself, they have to do things with pick up groups, or groups who will go for the ideal set up regardless of how their friend feels about dragging along their sub par job.

Once more, In an Event where TH is not useful, THF is not useful. THF can perform some tasks adequetly enough to win a run, but other jobs will perform those tasks better, and thus, THF becomes simply less than Ideal. Inviting a THF is inviting a Liability with a higher risk of failure than a Safer pick like WAR or DRG would be.

When you go into an invite /shouting for people, You don't know what you're going to get, THF is a very high maintenance job to even perform 'well'. So people will steer away from THF because of that, Sure a Great THF can be an "okay" DD, But it won't make them better then a WAR who even half-tries.

So, Again to echo the chorus of logic against the eardrums of ignorance, We're not saying THF is a completely useless job, We're not saying with a THF you absolutely canno win, We're not saying THF is going to cause a groups failures. We're stating that, as a 100% Fact, THF under-performs compared to any other DD Counterpart, and as such, Getting a real DD in an event where TH has no lease, Will improve your odds.

And in an event like Nyzul Isle, Even the smallest amount of improvement in odds of hitting floor 80/100 is crucial to making the event worthwhile.

So for F**KS Sake, Once more, You can go to events on THF, Continue to kick Ass, I know when i go THF, I don't slack off knowing that i'll never beat the WAR, I perform the best I can, just like you. But as such, we repeat, Thief is not an Okay job just because the best of the best of us can perform almost as well as a good WAR.

The job is incredibly high-Maintenance, and has a hard time even keeping up with the middle ground DD. TH is the only thing it really had back at 75, and frankly i agree with you when you say F**k treasure hunter. I don't want more Treasure Hunter. I want something, some reasons to bring a Good THF.

So, Instead of repeatedly going on about how awesome it is to go places on THF, Instead of repeatedly shitting on other peoples ideas, why don't you come up with your own? What would You do to improve THF? What would you think would be good adjustments or additions to the job?

I know you have some in mind, I mean, you have too, Despite the disagreements in this thread, we can all agree THF is a dying job in need of help in some form, as it has no unique quality that gets it invited outside of TH, and we're all sick of being selected based on that.

Aana

03-10-2012, 09:30 AM

Karbuncle

03-10-2012, 09:36 AM

Weve gone over other changes. I generally agree with those. I dont agree with damage, and anything thats not damage related wont help thf in a situation that (you have determined) only damage matters so id just be wasting my time.

Elaborate some. What can they give THF, that in no way effects damage in any sort of way, That would make it unique and helpful in an event, that would truly separate a bad THF from a good THF instead of their TH level?

I really am interested in hearing this.

Laphine

03-10-2012, 12:00 PM

it doesn't exist?

That's my opinion. They will never give us anything meaningful on the support role side. If it's not meaningful, it's the same as not getting it. Ppl won't want thf's silly tools.

TH as an attention grabber really works. And it's fair. As fair as needing a healer to do stuff with. What wasn't fair was our monopoly over the trait. Now the main problem is that there really is something wrong when they keep adding more endgame that doesn't need TH (which is like excluding the necessity of healers), while still use TH as the basis for our job updates.

So yeah, even tho i defend thf vs heavy dd stuff. What i want is more DD power. Imo damage is the next best thing we can offer to a party after TH. It's wasted effort to boost aspects that will never even be strategically needed. Boost our damage and make TH performance based. Win win.

Aana

03-10-2012, 01:32 PM

My ideas is that adding a thf has an immediate and measurable impact on a party through positioning and hate management. The original aspects of thf that drew me to the job some 7 years ago. Positioning and enmity management. Just make them relevant again.

There are a plethora of hate management expansion that id like to see, but until SE revamps the entire enmity system its all pretty moot, but that would be a strategic addition.
*Accomp/collab alli wide.
*'Decoy Shot' rng has except you choose the target who diverts a portion of their enmity onto you. Alli wide. Enmity siphon more or less.
*Most importantly we need a way to do something with the enmity we accumulate. Dump it and transfer it. Simple solution would be have hide always dump enmity. Second, add a way to transfer. This could be a separate ability targeting someone or a buff stackable with TA.
*AOE hate management. AOE -enmity effect. Medium range via warcry.

But as i said, enmity needs an overhaul before any stronger focus on enimty for thf would be even remotely useful. We cant keep an entire alliance from capping in 30 seconds. Pld needs it too or else they are going to remain largely obsolete.

Positional aspects:
I always liked that thf was the only job that really cared about where they were besides dodging AOEs or triggering flail. Not as sure what to do, but id like to reintroduce it. Maybe something like a series of passive bonuses based on position. Crit rate from behind. +eva if thf is the target. Lowered enmity on sides. + Enmity if in front but not target. Perhaps even an AOE aura based on position instead of single target (can even be like the VW spheres that only affect others and not the thf). Buffs can be almost anything. Lots of choices, but something offensive, something defensive, and something 'other' like -enm or whatever so you make a conscious choice about what you want to add to the party by where you are.

Potency of effects and exacts are very flexible. I dont have a specific design that i think is the ideal option, but you see the direction. The positional stuff id prefer to see as a passive aura-ish effect instead of loading down more JAs. Most jobs have stances. We should have an equivalent aspect that is positional based. 'postition stances' but passive. Using a JA every 5 seconds when a mob turns is dumb.

As an aside: I have asked for damage buffs in the past, but those have mostly been met. I wanted native DW matching /nin so that we could be unchained from /nin as 1stop shop for best offense and best defense. A single offensive change that opened a lot of doors because we can CHOOSE a sub for the situation. DW3 was a HUGE damage buff. We have identical offense we had as /nin, but natively. Thf/War with DW is a HUUUUUGE step up in the DD department in itself. Arguably a greater (indirect) buff to raw damage potential than any other job has recieved since 75. We have that now.

Second damage buff I have asked for wasnt a direct damage buff, but a 'reach existing potential easier' buff. Ease the positional requirements of SA to make it more feasible to actually use on spinning mobs. I would have prefered just 'anything not the front' but bully takes a crack at it. Less frequent, but can be used even solo/with hate, so it works for me.

I have felt that thf needed a boost in the damage department. SE has done that for me, and its enough. Thf/War today is not to be underestimated and has a TOOON more raw damage potential than anything we had at 75. We are way up from where we have ever been. And thats ignoring our far upgraded gear compared to 75. Our gear stands up relative to 'heavy' DD armor much more closely than ever. Stuff like tokis is much closer to gear wars have than homam vs adaberk at 75.

Thf has stepped up its DD game by leaps and bounds since 75, and i am more than happy with its capabilities. But it has lost the focus on positioning and enmity that drew me to it in the 1st place. Smart adjustments in those areas create a strategic job class that uses dynamic tools to assist a group. Not just dumb monkey hit WS macro every 10 seconds. That is where i I want thf to go. I enjoyed having to be engaged when I started thf. I get bored playing jobs like mnk and war. I want my engaging thf back.
_________________________________________________
TLDR: Refocus on the orginal reasons i picked this job in the 1st place as my main over every other DD. Positioning mattered and Hate management. Those are all but lost now. We need a party to be at 100%(SA/TA/Ambush), so we should give something back to the party, and do so in an active, and dynamic way.

*Positional aoe sphere effects (dont even have to work for the thf). Backside=offensive. Front=Defensive. Thf as target=tank buff (+eva, -DT, or +enm), side='special' like -enmity sphere.

*Existing hate tools expanded to alli. New hate tools that focus on AOE (like an AOE -emity effect via warcry-gnostics drink). 'Decoy shot' tweak where Thf chooses an alli member whos gained enmity is partially transfered to thf. DO something with all that hate. Dump: Hide dumps all enmity on every mob. Transfer: Ability stackable with TA to transfer a significant amount of enmity on the target.

Any enmity focus is irrelivant until SE revamps the enmity system. Its impossible to manage a party let alone an alliance when DDs cap in 30seconds. That has to change before Thf can be relivant in the enmity department.

*DD buffs I have asked for have been given. DW to open sub options. Ease SA position (bully). More competative gear options.

Aana

03-10-2012, 01:42 PM

Boost our damage and make TH performance based. Win win.

Performance based TH has always intrigued me as a direct way to separate the 'leveled for TH whore' thfs and people with an interest in the job. I just dont know how it could be implemented in a way that wouldnt be abusable or just stupid. Is it based on the % of mob HP the thf takes? Then people just throw out everyone else. I dont know how to add it that would make sense, but i have always liked the concept that 'i play thf well, i get more treasure' but I have no idea how the game engine would measure that in a fair way that isnt abusable.

Karbuncle

03-10-2012, 01:55 PM

Could make it to where, the more Damage you do with an Action, the higher the chance it has to Upgrade TH? So being Gimp = Less chance to upgrade TH. It would throw gear into the equation in a good way. punish the weak for slacking. I know that seems a bit... Horrid to say, But i like it :D.

Alternatively, There could be a good few things added. instead of directly buffing THF's damage, They could simply increase other peoples Damage as well. Or, How about something like...

TH1~3 = Sneak Attack, Trick Attack Damage +5%
TH4~6 = SA/TA Damage +10%
TH7~9 = SA/TA Damage +15%
TH10~12+ = SA/TA Damage +20%

The higher your TH, The more you benefit from it. Alternatively, It could generate a debuff on the enemy, doesn't need to be super Strong. In comparison, Tachi:Ageha grants -30% DEF, so something like...

TH1~3 - M.Eva/Def - 5%
TH4~6 - M.Eva/DEF -10%
TH7~9 - M.Eva/DEF -15%
TH10~12+ M.Eva/Def -20%

(Magic Evasion Reduction would be about -20/30 Not a Percent Value, Equivalent to about +20/30 Macc at TH10+) Something that links it to TH, But helps us beyond the TH benefit would be nice. I much more like the idea of it being a Group benefit, rather than a self Buff. But i do think we should have a JA that increases SA or TA Damage...

I made a suggestion a while back for a JA like "Restraint" -

"Job Ability" - 10min-Rec - 5min.Dur
Increases Sneak Attack Or Trick Attack Damage with each hit landed.
Each Hit landed increases the DEX or AGI mod from SA/TA by 0.5%, To a maximum of +30% Mod. (Total 60 Hits).

I could spit-ball at random, But I'd really prefer an Ability that Buffs other peoples damage output, perhaps our own a little as well. Linking it to TH and making it a permanent Trait, Say level 15+ (Since it would be based on TH level) Would stick to the TH Theme of the job, As well as provide TH with a Buff to everyone in the party (Or a Debuff to the Enemy) For those Events where TH is not useful.

Edit: Regarding your Collab stuff, This is something i came up with a while ago:

Karbuncle's Suggestions on General THF improvement: (no thread)
[HB]
Enmity Control:
*Decrease Collaborator to 30s. Split timer from Accomp.
*Decrease Accomplice to 2min.
*Add Job Ability "Frame". Transfers 25% of THF's Enmity to target Party Member. Target is given Enmity Boost (+15) for 20 Seconds. (1min)
*Add Job Ability "Frame(2). Transfers 50% of THF's Enmity to Target Party Member. Member is given Immunity From hate Reset for 20 Seconds.(2min Timer)
*Add Job Ability "Shed". Erase 25% of Your own Enmity. (1min Timer)
*Add Job Ability "Innocent". Erase 50% of your own Enmity. (5min timer)

Additions to Collaborator and Accomplice -

Collaborator - Gives Target an Enmity Reduction (-15) For 20 seconds
Accomplice - Targets Enmity Decays at 1.5x Rate for 20 seconds. Cumulative Enmity will Decay as if you were taking 10%HP in damage, once ever 3s.