Reflect

[Camate]

Seems like there is a bunch of talk about Reflect going down over the JP forums and gained enough momentum to where the development team is going to look into whether or not they can get this classic FINAL FANTASY spell into the game.

Things that can be potentially taken care of:

• 1 on 1 reflection
This is basically the same system as Counter, so it seems like it is a possibility.
In the case that both have Reflect up, we can deal with this by adding a rule that “You cannot counter with counter.”

• Reflected damage calculation

• Log display of reflected effect
“→Reflect! ○○ takes ×× damage.”



Difficulties:

• Reflecting spells you cast on yourself

• Random reflection
In the case that the target is not decided, the system will search the area for monsters and decide. If this happens every time Reflect is activated, there is a high chance that it would cause a lot of lag and in the worst case scenario crash the servers.

• AoE Spell reflection
If we made Reflect function like Counter, this would be quite difficult.

• Effect animation
In the whole flow of the spell taking action: spell activates → reflect animation is displayed → reflected spell animation is displayed on yourself, this final part is impossible to do, and the best we can do is cut this animation and only display it in the log. Additionally, the animation needs to be in the memory, but there is a pending concern that the size would be pretty rough.

Stats
Besides the system itself, stats of the spell will need to be adjusted very carefully. Since you would be invincible against single-target spells as well as deal damage by reflecting them, this is an extremely powerful effect, so we would not be doing exactly this. We would need a good amount of time to test and balance this just right.
　
While nothing is for certain yet, please understand that this is still a ways off, but we would like to look into this more.

[Zeroe]

Although I would like to see reflect implemented, I feel the American Base is being ignored when we suggest something. We cry over horrid drop rates, complain 2 hours need a adjustment for jobs, and weapon skills that need buffed. But when JP wants feedback about reflect, they actually get it. >.>

[Dreamin]

Although I would like to see reflect implemented, I feel the American Base is being ignored when we suggest something. We cry over horrid drop rates, complain 2 hours need a adjustment for jobs, and weapon skills that need buffed. But when JP wants feedback about reflect, they actually get it. >.>

You sound surprised by this.

[Luvbunny]

This is a welcomed thoughts indeed, very interesting, and hope it can be implemented and become an exclusive spell for Red Mage, after all its is an "enhancing" spell. Also please try to take suggestions from the European and American players and implement them as well so SE is not seen as biased toward the japanese players.

[Zinato]

Although I would like to see reflect implemented, I feel the American Base is being ignored when we suggest something. We cry over horrid drop rates, complain 2 hours need a adjustment for jobs, and weapon skills that need buffed. But when JP wants feedback about reflect, they actually get it. >.>

Add new thing or fix old thing that would admit a mistake?

That aside, dream come true. I'm just scared its going to be on afterglow Mythic for RDM.

[cidbahamut]

If they give this to White Mage I'm going to punch an entire box of kittens.

[Luvbunny]

You sound surprised by this.

They did listen to the VW complaints and gave us tickets, they did listen to WoE and try their hardest to tweak it to become more popular, they did listen to puppet master and tweaked the job, etc... We got the Falcor pet jug which is FAR more useful than the scorpion pet would have been - though now they decide to nerf the TH3. Some they did listen and implemented the changes, but not all, perhaps they have not enough resources and man power.

[Ryce]

Although I would like to see reflect implemented, I feel the American Base is being ignored when we suggest something. We cry over horrid drop rates, complain 2 hours need a adjustment for jobs, and weapon skills that need buffed. But when JP wants feedback about reflect, they actually get it. >.>

Maybe you have your answer right here? Just saying.

Note: I do not know the tone of discussion on the Japanese forum, as I don't speak Japanese. I do know the tone of most posts on the English forum, and I wouldn't be pumped about communicating most of that to the devs/management if I were the translator.

[Luvbunny]

If they give this to White Mage I'm going to punch an entire box of kittens.

Agree, this spells should go for Red Mage and can be AOE using SCH job ability. SE need to put a STOP on White Mage getting every single damn spells - that job is now perfect, apart from the ridiculous idea of Araise. They should put their energy to fix Red Mage and Summoner now and stop wasting time to work on White Mage again and again and again - and wasting time nerfing every other jobs who can't function properly if you take the White Mage out of the equation.

[cidbahamut]

I don't care who it goes to, as long as it doesn't go to White Mage.

White Mage is OP.

[SpankWustler]

I would have never thought such a thing would be considered. I'm interested to see where this goes.

I just hope Reflect goes to Red Mage if it's implemented. Maybe Scholar or even Paladin rather than White Mage. I'd love to have such a spell on my favorite job and all, but it's already the strongest out of the jobs that might receive such a spell and a single-target Enhancing spell would be pretty odd for White Mage anyway.


Maybe you have your answer right here? Just saying.

Note: I do not know the tone of discussion on the Japanese forum, as I don't speak Japanese. I do know the tone of most posts on the English forum, and I wouldn't be pumped about communicating most of that to the devs/management if I were the translator.

Tone does not need to be communicated along with content. Although, it would be pretty funny if half the stuff the English Community Reps communicated to the Development Bros started with "After writing a novella about how you guys run around the office naked and hallucinating, which made me feel a bit envious of your department, someone mentioned..." or "Seasoned with oddly capitalized profanity and lurid references to the basest parts of the human anatomy, the general sentiment was..."

I think the tone used could be a "chicken or egg?" kind of issue, too. My primary goal with my posts is to amuse myself because I feel confident that self-amusement is most productive thing that will ever come of anything that I post. If something happened to make my feeling about that change, my goal would change too.

[Ophannus]

JP get more attention because

1) If you goto their pages they give way more feedback and respond with 'Likes'. More +1 Likes=More chance a Dev will care. Most pages that devs look at seem to have 60-200+ likes.

2) The JP playerbase FAR exceeds the size of the NA playerbase. They are the majority, which is why their votes override ours.

[Nervosa]

This should be on Aegis

[Runespider]

Although I would like to see reflect implemented, I feel the American Base is being ignored when we suggest something. We cry over horrid drop rates, complain 2 hours need a adjustment for jobs, and weapon skills that need buffed. But when JP wants feedback about reflect, they actually get it. >.>

There is no favouritism, it's just common sense that since the developers are Japanese they can actually read the JP forums themselves and get lots of information first hand. Anything that goes from here has to be translated etc and let's be honest that will never be a very good way of a playerbase communicating to the dev team. If you're lucky you get a director that can understand english and JP (like Yoshi I believe?)but we don't have that.



This is a welcomed thoughts indeed, very interesting, and hope it can be implemented and become an exclusive spell for Red Mage, after all its is an "enhancing" spell. Also please try to take suggestions from the European and American players and implement them as well so SE is not seen as biased toward the japanese players.

I highly doubt RDM would get this, or WHM. I would think it will be a low/insta cast time PLD spell which is self target only and probably wears after 1 spell. Goes right along with Reprisal. They will either make it a very difficult to obtain spell or let all plds get it and make new content that relies on it, thereby making PLD the only tanking option for some mobs (ie. make an unstunable spell like deathga with a 5 second counter or something, that if not reflected would wipe the entire alliance).

[Zirael]

Although I would like to see reflect implemented, I feel the American Base is being ignored when we suggest something. We cry over horrid drop rates, complain 2 hours need a adjustment for jobs, and weapon skills that need buffed. But when JP wants feedback about reflect, they actually get it. >.>
Still no news about Cheese Sandwich adjustments :(
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/archive/index.php/t-17942.html?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

A good idea, even as a trait like counter. Pointless if it goes to WHM (likely) or PLD (who already breaks the MDT- cap)

If I'm honest it belongs on RDM (supposed self-cast masters), maybe even SCH as well (highest skill and all) but I wont hold my breath on it going to them.

[tyrantsyn]

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotosash4/s320x320/427430_329920440383195_100000957250449_879839_680207669_n.jpg

How many time's has this come up on NA thread's LOL


Keep it simple guy's, have it work like Utsusemi with shadows. Perhaps have it scale a bit with enhancing magic to add more chance's to reflect. Give it a nice little reduction in damage by a %. For the sake of barance, make it self target only and give it to PLD or RDM or both. Think it would fit those job's best. "IF" there's a aoe/accession~able version of it. Just have it tone down compared the single targeted/self targeted version. If you go that route.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotosash4/s320x320/427430_329920440383195_100000957250449_879839_680207669_n.jpg

How many time's has this come up on NA thread's LOL


Keep it simple guy's, have it work like Utsusemi with shadows. Perhaps have it scale a bit with enhancing magic to add more chance's to reflect. Give it a nice little reduction in damage by a %. For the sake of barance, make it self target only and give it to PLD or RDM or both. Think it would fit those job's best. "IF" there's a aoe/accession~able version of it. Just have it tone down compared the single targeted/self targeted version. If you go that route.

even at 3 spells reflected (or even absorbed with no reflection effect) each Accession if not (SCH main) would triple recast time. So say if RDM got it, and the spells would most likely be 180 seconds recast so you'd be able to cast every 9 minutes, that's balance in itself.

PS.. If added as a spell I can imagine it being 30~60 second duration.

[Economizer]

• Reflecting spells you cast on yourself

This one sounds hard just because you can't normally cast nukes on party members. However you can cast Cure spells which might be relevant for undead if those get reflected too as "a down side" or whatever.

Of course the easy way out would be to just ignore play spells cast like some games have done I suppose. I kindof expect this behavior honestly, it would be less tactical but I could see it as a possibility due to difficulties.


• Random reflection
In the case that the target is not decided, the system will search the area for monsters and decide. If this happens every time Reflect is activated, there is a high chance that it would cause a lot of lag and in the worst case scenario crash the servers.

Auto-attack target followed by whatever party members are attacking? Or perhaps the spell wouldn't function without an auto-attack target, or just wouldn't allow self-cast nukes or just made them AoE.


• Effect animation

Cutting animations sounds fine.


Stats

Sounds like it will have a long, long recast timer and probably a fairly high MP cost. I think it should be fairly fast casting and party targetable however.

-

Also, to those crying preemptively about who gets this spell, the cries of about White Mage (usually from the same people everytime) show a major lack of understanding of actual balance in the game. I've heard stuff like "White Mage has Cure VI so" and any number of arguments that make it clear that the poster has absolutely no idea how curing even works in this game let along anything else White Mage does. I wish I could say "you know who you are, cut the crap" but said posters likely don't know who they are in this case.

White Mage is in a pretty sweet spot when it comes to making things get HP recovery and making things resist magical damage, and I won't deny that. It might even not be in the heart of the game to allow White Mage to have this spell if/when it does come out. However it is small minded to merely say "White Mage shouldn't get this" without any considerations and as a mindless kneejerk reaction.

For one, mastery doesn't only mean that you get spells that others don't, it also means you are better with spells that others get. For example, if both Red Mage and White Mage were to get this spell then we'd start with Red Mage's having a longer duration, which is particularly important for mages that get this spell or if this spell lasted a short duration. Then if Enhancing Magic plays a major roll in the spell (such as duration) then Red Mage would have an edge in getting to maximum effect.

Afterwards there could be job abilities or traits added to complement such a spell that would make Red Mage very important in relation this this spell. For one, Red Mage has Spontaneity, Chainspell, and Fast Cast which would make this spell much easier to cast repeatedly for them. However I personally would really like to see a Runic Blade type ability that makes Red Mage a lightning rod for monster casted spells (you'd take the damage from spells normally although get a portion of the damage back in MP) that would work well in conjunction with Reflect. Such an ability would be easier to get support for if both White Mage and Red Mage got the spell in my opinion.

Honestly I think we should wait for more information on the stats of this spell before we give mindless knee jerks about what class we like or dislike like a rational discourse. Depending on the spell we'll get more information and be able to make more reasonable and informed comments. For example, if this is a self-target spell I think it would probably only go to Red Mage and Paladin.

[Kalilla]

I see SMN being the most likely of jobs to receive this, plus they would be the most likely to AoE the spell as well and buff the entire party. I don't think SMN would be able to AoE it, just think it would be the most likely.

Next more deserving are RDM, then SCH.

I could see a PLD using it, but I don't think they will get it.

I love WHM, and it traditionally would get it in any game no matter how you look at it, but atm WHM is extremely over powered, possibly the most over powered job in the game, so I don't see WHM getting it. I won't refuse it, but I think other jobs fall into the same categories and if WHM can get it as well then splendid.

This is all based on if SE is actually able to add the spell and make it work, of course.

[hideka]

Although I would like to see reflect implemented, I feel the American Base is being ignored when we suggest something. We cry over horrid drop rates, complain 2 hours need a adjustment for jobs, and weapon skills that need buffed. But when JP wants feedback about reflect, they actually get it. >.>

google translate your post into japanese and post it in the JP threads. sounds like a sure fire way to me to get them to consider your ideas.

[Alpheus]

I could see RDM getting the spell with it possibly being accessionable and Carbuncle getting a AoE SMN version of it since the point of it being added is that its a "classic" spell and Carby has had the spell at his command in his many iterations. As a WHM I wouldn't want it as a spell since even though it has been classified as a White Magic spell in previous games RDM def needs something unique and fun. I also agree with whoever brought up that RDM should get an accompanying "lightning rod" spell or JA.

Maybe have an entire line of of reflect based buff spells that a RDM can use that affect how reflect is dealt with like "next spell cast can pierce through reflect" since NMs with this buff at their disposal could lead to some interesting fights or maybe a "spells blocked by reflect are not reflected but instead restore MP" to allow a RDM to cast reflect and the aforementioned buff on a Paladin needing MP while Chivalry and Devotion are down when the PLD is about to eat an Impact or something along the lines of a powerful single target nuke (assuming there would be a fight where a PLD is 100% vital)

The above is probably too elaborate for implementation but i would like for RDM to have something to show off its supposed dominance and control of enhancement buffs (essentially to have it enhance themselves and party members in ways that are unique to RDM)

edit: in my mind i was thinking the "reflect pierce" and "MP Absorption" buffs as being able to be cast upon others so a RDM could say buff themselves or a BLM to have a way to handle a NM with perma reflect or something. Of course as I have read across many different posts across the different forums rumblings that the spell index is limited (as far as what's added to the game) so maybe a line of buffs revolving around reflect would be too much.

[Yukichibi]

Only spells that SCH got natively or via sub job are accessionable. (exception of haste)

[Quetzacoatl]

Nice, now we can we stop confusing the Colibri's "mimic" with true Reflect now? :P

In all seriousness, the order of priority this spell should go to is:

1. RDM
2. SCH & SMN (via Carbuncle)
3. PLD

[Krashport]

Sadly if by chance Red Mage does get this, It will not fix the Job Class.

BLM>RDM>SCH

[Sasaraixx]

I have seen requests for this on the JP forums for a long time and I never thought that it would actually be considered. I am very curious to see how they implement it. If monsters gain access to the spell as well, that could be very interesting as well.

This is a classic FF spell that has typically gone to WHM. I also agree that for FFXI another class should receive the spell. No, I don't need to wait and see the specifics of the spell, nor is this a knee jerk reaction. We have a general understanding of what the spell is going to do and the implementation of that idea will not effect how I view which job(s) the spell should go to. It is also very clear that WHM is extremely powerful and well situated in the game now. This spell should go to one of the other mage jobs to help provide them with a boost.

I think the obvious choices are RDM and PLD. Personally, RDM would get my vote between the two but I would like to mention SMN and SCH as alternate picks. SMN could receive an AOE or modified AOE version of the spell as a pact for Carbuncle (or Cait Sith - whenever she is coming). I mention SCH because of the strategic nature of the spell fitting in with the concept of the job and the need for more SCH specific spells that are useful outside of Tabula Rasa.

I think this will be in development for a long, long time. I'm curious to see what comes of this.

[cidbahamut]

Only spells that SCH got natively or via sub job are accessionable. (exception of haste)

This is a separate issue that needs to be addressed and discussed at length in its own thread honestly.

[Alhanelem]

Although I would like to see reflect implemented, I feel the American Base is being ignored when we suggest something. We cry over horrid drop rates, complain 2 hours need a adjustment for jobs, and weapon skills that need buffed. But when JP wants feedback about reflect, they actually get it. >.>
TBH, I've yet to see any NA threads up to this point suggesting this spell. While what you're saying is more or less accurate, you can't say that we as a community suggested this, so you can't argue they ignored something that the JP suggested but we didn't.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

TBH, I've yet to see any NA threads up to this point suggesting this spell. While what you're saying is more or less accurate, you can't say that we as a community suggested this, so you can't argue they ignored something that the JP suggested but we didn't.

Been in many RDM threads.

[Alhanelem]

Stats
Besides the system itself, stats of the spell will need to be adjusted very carefully. Since you would be invincible against single-target spells as well as deal damage by reflecting them, this is an extremely powerful effect, so we would not be doing exactly this. We would need a good amount of time to test and balance this just right.

Simple balancing solution:

Fairly high MP cost, moderate recast time (difficult to maintain over long periods)
Provides % chance to reflect (rather than every spell)
Wears off after certain duration (2-5 min max) or certain number of spells (e.g. 3-5) are reflected.

Most enhancing magic spells are relatively low cost with relatively low effects for good durations so it would be interesting to have a more powerful and costly enhancing effect.

[Sargent]

The animation has been in the dats for ages, but I would love to see this finally get implemented. However, it does seem a tad unbalanced in relation to whats already in the game, so here's my thoughts on it:

- In regards to the reflected spell being reflected onto a random mob, have it so the spell is only reflected onto the mob you are currently engaged to. This may cause an issue with mages however since they're rarely engaged.
- Also have the spell reflect only single target nukes and set the MP cost high. Maybe have it reflect a set amount of spells.

[Classikal]

You could make Reflect low casting time, with a large recast, like Stun. Make it 100% chance to Reflect the next spell cast. Good or bad. Including spells cast by the friendly characters. That way we are forced to strategize when to use it, like Stun.

If you feel certain spells, like Death might be a bit overpowered to Reflect make them be able to go through Reflect.

[Economizer]

If you feel certain spells, like Death might be a bit overpowered to Reflect make them be able to go through Reflect.

What would end up happening it it would just stop the Death spell and the NM would resist it... NMs pretty much are auto-immune as is.

[Classikal]

What would end up happening it it would just stop the Death spell and the NM would resist it... NMs pretty much are auto-immune as is.

That would work too, even if the mob resists it. It would be another away to protect a tank from Death going off.

[Doombringer]

it should probably just ignore friendly spells. it may not be fully in the spirit of "reflect" but it'd make it a hell of a lot more useable.


i'm thinking it should be single target and influenced by enhancing skill to give between 1 and 3 reflects.
something along the lines of any jagoff rdm, sch, or whm should be able to get 1 reflect.
properly skilled up rdm and sch would get 2, while whm would need to be skilled up and geared for the second.
then 3 would only be possible from well geared and skilled sch or rdm. maybe make 3 require the full blown 500 enhancing skill.

then carbuncle could get an aoe effect, but limited to just 1.

[Quetzacoatl]

Sadly if by chance Red Mage does get this, It will not fix the Job Class.

BLM>RDM>SCH

elaborate on this blanket statement please

[Draylo]

SMN and RDM should get it imo.

[Krashport]

elaborate on this blanket statement please

Ok, well back in the day RDM was known for refresh A.k.a The refresh-whore if by chance RDM does get Reflect it will not make or break the Job.. RDM needs more then Reflect-whore, Just seems like a lot "Not all" Thinking this spell and or ability whatever it is going to be going to fix RDM. Me personally don't think it's really needed fun yeah! but not needed.. Also it's not going to help RDM any. Yeah it's pretty cool seeing this might finally come to FFXI but that's about it, If anything I bet PUP automaton will get it then we all wait for RDM to get Reflect II.

[Greatguardian]

SMN and RDM should get it imo.

I'd put SCH on the list if only because then it means we don't have to fight to get it put onto Accession.

And for Altana's sake, let it be party castable else it'll just be worthless.

[KorPoni]

Reflect effects:
Friendly spells casted on you by yourself: Won't be reflected.
Friendly spells casted on you by a party member: Won't be reflected.
Friendly spells that are aoe that affect you: Won't be reflected.
Offensive spells casted on you by an enemy: Have a chance of being reflected.
Offensive spells that are aoe that affect you: The effect on you would have a chance of reflecting back at the user.

Things that can reflect: magic damage, spell's element, status effects: stun, paralyze, sleep, silence, blind, bind, and dispel.
Animation: Like all old Reflect spells, a red sphere or half sphere when it activates.
Spells:
Reflect: RDM 37+, SCH60+ (5% chance of reflecting magic that has affected you.)
Reflect II: RDM 50+, SCH90+ (12% chance of reflecting magic that has affected you.)
Reflect III: RDM 80+ (25% chance of reflecting magic that has affected you.)

Description: Grants user Reflect status. Has a chance of reflecting an enemy's magic back at them.

[dragmagi]

lets give blu reflect

[Starry]

Although I would like to see reflect implemented, I feel the American Base is being ignored when we suggest something. We cry over horrid drop rates, complain 2 hours need a adjustment for jobs, and weapon skills that need buffed. But when JP wants feedback about reflect, they actually get it. >.>

Pretty much this - when are WE(the large portrion of your paying customers) going to get some talk time...


2) The JP playerbase FAR exceeds the size of the NA playerbase. They are the majority, which is why their votes override ours.
Link to this?

[Dragonlord]

lets give blu reflect

I don't know about this. However, mimic would fit the job perfectly.

[Draylo]

I'd personally like more iconic spells, Mighty Guard!

[Alderin]

Difficulties:

• Reflecting spells you cast on yourself

Old way to solve this in previous FF's was to cast Reflect on the enemy/mob and cast the spell you wanted to cast on yourself. This would in turn reflect the Cure spell back to you for example. I can see this being a problem for BLM's though.


• Random reflection
In the case that the target is not decided, the system will search the area for monsters and decide. If this happens every time Reflect is activated, there is a high chance that it would cause a lot of lag and in the worst case scenario crash the servers.

Perhaps a solution to this would be if there are no alliance or party claimed monsters, the "reflect" get's interrupted (similar to someone moving while casting a spell) as an example.



• AoE Spell reflection
If we made Reflect function like Counter, this would be quite difficult.

Just only allow reflect to activate on single-target attacks. Such as Fire IV, Fire V etc.


• Effect animation
In the whole flow of the spell taking action: spell activates → reflect animation is displayed → reflected spell animation is displayed on yourself, this final part is impossible to do, and the best we can do is cut this animation and only display it in the log. Additionally, the animation needs to be in the memory, but there is a pending concern that the size would be pretty rough.

Obviously I have no clue how your spagetti code is written, however perhaps removing the "spell on player" animation so it looks more like: Spell Activates > Reflect animation is displayed > Reflect animation is displayed on the monster.


Stats
Besides the system itself, stats of the spell will need to be adjusted very carefully. Since you would be invincible against single-target spells as well as deal damage by reflecting them, this is an extremely powerful effect, so we would not be doing exactly this. We would need a good amount of time to test and balance this just right.

From previous FF's, Reflect was certainly quite overpowered. If you kept your whole party reflected - as well as the monster, you would essentially be invincible to magic (as you said). If you needed to cast an elemental spell you would cast it on yourself, and it would reflect to the monster. If you needed to cast a cure spell you would cast it on the monster and it would reflect to yourself. If the monster casts a cure spell, it would reflect onto you, and finally if the monster were to cast a spell on you, it would reflect onto the monster... So yes in previous FF's it was overpowered.

A way to counter this would be have reflect similar to Blink - in which it has a *chance* to activate and is not 100%. Or quite simply, you cannot cast reflect on the monster, yet Cures are still reflected away from the person with reflect.

[Anima]

This is what i think reflect should do.

Defensive Reflect

- Most defensive Self/Single target spells (enhancing magic, healing magic) that are cast on the target that currently has the effect of reflect on them, should be considered party AoE of about 10' max from the intended target for the same duration and potency of effect that was cast on the intended target.
- all defensive AoE spells (enhancing magic, healing magic) that are cast on the target that currently has the effect of reflect on them, should receive the effect as if reflect was not on the intended target.

Offensive Reflect

-Most offensive single spells (Damaging Divine magic, Damaging Elemental magic) that are cast on the intended target that currently has the effect of reflect on them are reduced by a percentage depending on the enhancing magic skill or summoning skill of the Reflect's Caster. The reduced damage amount is reflected at the current engaged target or the caster of the offensive spell, depending on if the intended target is engaged or not. Any additional effects should not be reflected, just the damage.
-Most offensive AoE spells (Damaging Divine magic, Damaging Elemental magic) that are cast on all targets in range target that currently has the effect of reflect on them are reduced by a percentage depending on the enhancing magic skill or summoning skill of the Reflect's Caster. The reduced damage amount of only the intended target is reflected at the current engaged target or the caster of the offensive spell, depending on if the intended target is engaged or not. Any additional effects should not be reflected, just the damage.
- Any debuff (through non-damaging Divine magic, non-damaging enfeebling magic, non-damaging elemental magic) that are cast on the intended target that currently has the effect of reflect on them, should still receive the effect unless that effect would be immune on the caster.
- Any AoE debuff (through non-damaging Divine magic, non-damaging enfeebling magic, non-damaging elemental magic) that land on the targets that currently has the effect of reflect on them, should still receive the effect unless that effect would be immune on the caster.
-Most debuffs on a PC or NPC with the effect of reflect, should mirror most debuffs to current engaged target, unless the engaged target currently has the debuff, immune or resistant to the effect.

[Keyln]

Ok, well back in the day RDM was known for refresh A.k.a The refresh-whore if by chance RDM does get Reflect it will not make or break the Job.. RDM needs more then Reflect-whore, Just seems like a lot "Not all" Thinking this spell and or ability whatever it is going to be going to fix RDM. Me personally don't think it's really needed fun yeah! but not needed.. Also it's not going to help RDM any. Yeah it's pretty cool seeing this might finally come to FFXI but that's about it, If anything I bet PUP automaton will get it then we all wait for RDM to get Reflect II.

So...the problem with RDM is...what exactly?

[KorPoni]

Here's a poll for what English players think:
1. Type of Reflect, Reflect II
a) Reflect has 10% chance to activate, Reflect II has 25% chance to activate.
b) Reflect has 3 charges and activates 100%, Reflect II has 4 charges and activates 100%.

2. Job or jobs that should learn Reflect:
a) WHM
b) BLM
c) RDM
d) BLU
e) SCH

3. Should Reflect be available as a subjob spell?
a) No
b) Yes

4. How many tiers of the spell would be nice?
a) 1
b) 2
c) 3

5. Spellcasting range?
a) Yourself only
b) Any party member
c) Any player

6. Reflection method/methods?
a) Magic damage you would have recieved by an opponent.
b) Negative status effect you would have recieved by an opponent.
c) aoe spell that affects you, casted by opponent.
d) Spell casted on you by an ally.
e) aoe spell that an ally casted that affects you.
f) additional magic damage from melee attacks or other special attacks you would have recieved, such as Enfire or Blaze Spikes damage.

[Economizer]

The more I think about unspecified targets the more I think it might be possible to just use an enmity list if there is no auto-attack target... in other words the spell would target whatever has the highest enmity... if there is no target with enmity on the player or the player isn't targeting a monster then the spell can say something along the lines of "Reflect failed to take effect" and fizzle. This might or might not be a viable solution but it would be an easy one for the players to understand.

Also if you can cast Reflect on a monster as well I think this will be the second greatest spell in FFXI history (right after 99999 damage Cures).

[Krashport]

So...the problem with RDM is...what exactly?

Since this thread is based on "Reflect" I'm not going to go into much detail on the problems with Red Mage, If anything there is alot of posts under the Red Mage Forums, Therefore I will say it's pretty cool that FFXI might finally get Reflect! ^^

Edit; Me personally think this Spell/Ability should go to White Mage for sure.

[LeaderofAtlantis]

First I agree with the idea of this spell only going to RDM only. I think in this game, it just seems right for them to have.

Second, I think an AoE version should be made exclusive to SMN, say in the form of a Carbuncle blood pact (I believe he's had that in past FF games).

Finally, make duration and max spells reflected tied to enhancing magic if you're going to do it.

And before the inevitable is mentioned, I'm fully aware I don't have the job leveled, but I've been around enough great mages in my 7+ years of playing this game and playing every other FF game up until this one many times through to have a good enough understanding to make a comment.

[saevel]

So...the problem with RDM is...what exactly?

It's a dead job <.<

Literally ... it has nothing at 99 that isn't done better by someone else. Even the multi-role nature of RDM can be better done by BLU and DNC. SE has not only completely ignored the job, but they've gone out of their way to make all NM's immune to enfeebles or have potency reduction. SE's doesn't want another Avesta, so RDM is not broken, its dead.

[Babekeke]

This should be on Aegis

Yeah that would be great when fighting a mob that absorbs the type of damage that it casts. >.>

Personally I would imagine this becoming a %chance to reflect, rather than 100%, or even a fading effect. 100% chance fading to 20% over time.

[Malamasala]

I find it funny that this has already been talked about around 2005/2006 on the forums FFXI considered as affiliates. But it is nice that SE at least only takes 5-10 years per suggestion.

[cidbahamut]

Edit; Me personally think this Spell/Ability should go to White Mage for sure.

Why do you hate kittens?
http://www.modernstills.com/Animals/Fauna/1987-AZ-Tucson-Kittens-01-198/437641191_ahHYt-M.jpg

[Lokithor]

A lot of the complexity in how this effect would work can be solved just by ignoring how this worked in FF console games and simplifying things. This whole "reflect a reflect" nonsense, inability to cast cures on members, etc. is too much complexity.

Make reflect work to only reflect spells cast by foes back to the foe that cast it. In order to not have it overpowered, reflect should not be 100% but have a % chance determined by the enhancing skill of the caster compared to some stat of the foe. For weak mobs, the effect % could be quite high. For though NM's, the % would be lower. For AOE spells, only the target of the spell would reflect back to the mob although others in AOE range would have the same chance to mitigate the effect of the spell (misses you but you don't reflect the spell - only the target does).

Having a % proc rate would also open the door to specific gear enhancements that can improve this or job traits that add to this effect (for example, give the spell to many mage jobs but give some jobs trait that improve the reflect rate) or merit categories that improve the effect.

[tyrantsyn]

Could code it so it only reflect black magic. Idk if that would cause to much of an issue. But I thought I'd throw that out there.

[Raksha]

It could just reflect magic back to your current <bt>

[Krashport]

Why do you hate kittens?
http://www.modernstills.com/Animals/Fauna/1987-AZ-Tucson-Kittens-01-198/437641191_ahHYt-M.jpg

omg... Don't punch that box of Kittens, Those are so cute and it's just wrong!! o.O;

[SpankWustler]

Why do you hate kittens?
http://www.modernstills.com/Animals/Fauna/1987-AZ-Tucson-Kittens-01-198/437641191_ahHYt-M.jpg

I can imagine it now:

"Aw, you're so cute. I'll name you all 'Tiger'!




































































TIGER UPPERCUT!"

[Kensagaku]

Okay I haven't read a lot of the thread, but I remember talking about similar effects in another thread, and I have my own proposition that might make the whole Reflect difficulties a bit easier to handle similar to the one from the other thread:

1) Reflect would be a single-target cast on any individual, can be made AoE by Accession.
2) Reflect would counter up to X number of spells, where X is based on your Enhancing Skill (meaning that RDM, with higher Enhancing, would rock this, but WHM and SCH could still get access and use it competently). Maybe like 1~3 spells to prevent it from being OP? Or more, but would require a longer recast time because monsters only cast spells so often unless under Chainspell/Manafont.
3) For limitations, reflecting spells would be limited to player-only spells to avoid stuff like Death and certain -gas from being countered. This would provide some aspect of balance.
4) For AoE spells, the original target is the only Reflect that will activate; if a party with Reflect on is hit by an AoE spell, the original target will use up one "use" of Reflect (see #2) while the spell is negated for the rest of the party. An AoE spell reflected will hit the target that cast it and any eligible mobs around it (example: during Voidwatch, you won't hit non-VW mobs nearby).
5) For damage/effectiveness of reflected spells, I'd say make it based on the player's stats, if that's not too complicated. Simply put that would prevent this from becoming overpowered while staying a viable defensive strategy. A melee with mediocre magical stats wouldn't reflect much damage, but would be protected from spells to an extent, while a mage who might get hit in the backline or even in front (the RDMs that do melee, or a WHM or SCH running in to AoE a buff like Protectra or Stoneskin-ga) can reflect it with more potency.


And to cover the issues that were given:

Reflecting Spells Cast On You

I suggest that player-originating spells ignore Reflect, simply because we normally cannot nuke/enfeeble/etc each other during battle. However, we wouldn't want Cures, etc to be bounced back at the user when a melee is nearly dead from physical attacks, because that would make this a very weak spell to use unless you have a tank who can turtle up enough to take hits until Reflect wears/is canceled.

Random reflection and AoE Spell reflection

Don't make reflection random, then. Have a reflected spell hit the target that cast it. Single-target spells will only affect the one who cast, but AoE spells will hit all eligible targets within range of the original caster (See #4, above). This includes debuffs as well as elemental spells, and with being limited to player-only spells, still requires that the mages be on their toes to handle certain situations (-ga debuffs, etc).

Effect animation

For this I'd recommend a simple shimmer effect (if possible) on the character who is being targeted, and the actual spell animation removed from the players. Since it would only be "targeting" one character with AoE damage hitting those around him, only the targeted character would need this effect, reducing lag on the server. Follow this by the spell animation being cast on the original caster, and in the chatlog something like:

"Monster A casts Fire IV."
"Reflect! Monster A takes X points of damage."

Stats

I can see the issue with this, hence why I made a limiter as above (see #2), which along with a decently long recast time (I'd say... 1:00~1:30, perhaps? I don't recall off the top of my head the average time difference between monsters casting spells, but it should be within 3~5 of their spells to be balanced, I think) would probably balance out this spell enough to make it potentially effective if used properly without making it overpowered.

And to mention stats, the damage of the reflected spell, as I suggested above in #5, should be based on the target that is reflecting the spell. If your character has low INT/elemental skill, your reflection of a nuke isn't going to be very potent, but you're still protected from it, giving you a defensive option without overpowering the damage on it. Mages, on the other hand, could make more potent use of the reflected spells, but would put themselves in danger if they're on the frontline with melee so it's more of a protection against backline nukes.

[tyrantsyn]

Difficulties:

• Reflecting spells you cast on yourself


Well, Shadows from utsusemi don't absorb incoming buff's or heal's. Are we not looking at the same thing just with an added effect of returning the spell? Of course this idea goes along the line's of making it like a utsusemi/Blink style spell. Which just seem's to make more sense.

Having it as a constant effect with a chance to reflect doesn't sound bad, but. I see something like that being another gear set build by adding % into the mix to up your chance to have the effect trigger. And the last thing any one needs is another build that take's up precious inventory space.

[Elexia]

Although I would like to see reflect implemented, I feel the American Base is being ignored when we suggest something. We cry over horrid drop rates, complain 2 hours need a adjustment for jobs, and weapon skills that need buffed. But when JP wants feedback about reflect, they actually get it. >.>

Over on Tera Americans complained about mobs respawning in 20 seconds.

20. Seconds.

I would ignore that player base too lol, but seriously, this is a Japanese company with a Japanese development team. Do you really think American based companies go out of their way to listen to chinese or french players? I can bet you the grand majority don't.

[Merton9999]

Camate, this is VERY encouraging news. I am frankly stunned to even see a mention of a possibly interesting spell addition these days on the board from the reps. When I saw it on the dev tracker list I got very warm inside, and it has ALMOST washed the horrible taste of Gravity II from my mouth.

I haven't played in months but I'd come back for a couple months to try this spell in every possible event. That is, if it goes to RDM or SCH. I wouldn't be mad if SMN got it, but I wouldn't really care about it either. I'd be infuriated if it went to WHM. Infuriated. Mad. Horrified. That kitten-punching dude would have a partner.

As far as the implementation, I'd be disappointed if it turned into a cycle spell. I see this happening if it is a long lasting buff with a random firing chance, like Blink, and didn't reflect friendly spells. You can keep the immunity to friendly spells, but as another poster mentioned, I'd like to see it work like stun, with a 100% activation rate, instant-cast, long recast and very short duration. Rather than maintaining another cycle on RDM, I'd like it to require paying close attention and be coordinated with stuns. I'll second the nomination for a Runic ability for RDM too with a similar behavior.

Also, through gear, merits or whatever, I'd like to see an effect from FFIX, where a reflected spell would be more powerful that the original when reflected back to the caster. This would give me some reason to really care about using Reflect rather than stun.

In the end I just want this to be a useful, worthwhile spell addition with interesting applications, and for it to go to a job that actually needs something now.

[Francisco]

I like the idea of a fast cast, long recast reflect spell, where it reflects the next spell... kind of a quick thing you could just throw up... I like this for RDM. It might be funny for a RDM to use Chainspell-Reflect instead of Chainspell-Stun...

I also like, additionally, the idea of a "Auto-Reflect" job trait, where there is a ~5-10% chance to Reflect a spell...

As for animations, I think there should be some "transition" in the effect...

Monster cast animation > Shield type animation on the Reflecting character appears briefly > spell effect displays on casting monster.

Here's a question though... Will Dispel remove Reflect, or will it get Reflected?

[Tesahade]

1) Reflect would be a single-target cast on any individual, can be made AoE by Accession.
2) Reflect would counter up to X number of spells, where X is based on your Enhancing Skill (meaning that RDM, with higher Enhancing, would rock this, but WHM and SCH could still get access and use it competently).


Rdm and Sch both have B+ enhancing magic and as for gear rdm has a with Duelist's hands +2, and Estoqueur's feet +2, cap = +24(slot with competition the competition is subtracted to show the lead it has over sch)
Sch has Savant's Bonnet +2 and Treatise Kirin's Pole(+10 aug)= +24(slots without competition that a rdm can use)
You can get a total of 505 enhancing magic (unless i missed a piece of gear) on both jobs. meaning 1 is not better then the other unless you account for sch having the power to double duration of the effects and make the spell AoE :)

[Kensagaku]

On the assumption of no inventory limits for this, RDM can go with:

Sub: Fulcio Grip (+3)
Head: Zenith Crown +1 (+8 with good augment)
Neck: Colossus or Enhancing Torque (+7)
Ears: Augmenting Earring (+3)
Body: Duelist's Tabard +2 (+15)
Hands: Duelist's Gloves +2 (+18)
Back: Estoqueur's Cape (+6)
Waist: Olympus Sash (+5)
Legs: Portent Pants or Warlock's Tights/+1 (+15)
Feet: Estoqueur's Houseaux +2 (+15)
Total: +95

Versus SCH:

Main: Kirin's Pole (+12 w/ good augment)
Sub: Fulcio Grip (+3)
Ammo: Savant's Treatise (+4)
Head: Savant's Bonnet +2 (+10)
Neck: Colossus or Enhancing Torque (+7)
Ears: Augmenting Earring (+3)
Body: Anhur Robe (+12)
Hands: Augur's Gloves (+5)
Back: Merciful Cape (+5)
Waist: Olympus Sash (+5)
Legs: Portent Pants (+15)
Feet: Rubeus Boots (+10)
Total: +91

RDM does pull a little ahead, but I acknowledge your point on that.

[Quetzacoatl]

Ok, well back in the day RDM was known for refresh A.k.a The refresh-whore if by chance RDM does get Reflect it will not make or break the Job.. RDM needs more then Reflect-whore, Just seems like a lot "Not all" Thinking this spell and or ability whatever it is going to be going to fix RDM. Me personally don't think it's really needed fun yeah! but not needed.. Also it's not going to help RDM any. Yeah it's pretty cool seeing this might finally come to FFXI but that's about it, If anything I bet PUP automaton will get it then we all wait for RDM to get Reflect II.

okay, so...what does this have to do with BLM? Also... (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/21269-Reflect?p=286449&viewfull=1#post286449)

[Economizer]

On the assumption of no inventory limits for this

There are varying amounts of difficulty to reach the magic 500 mark but Red Mage, White Mage and Scholar can all reach the cap. Paladin and Black Mage can reach something a little over 460 with the right subjob.

[Krashport]

okay, so...what does this have to do with BLM? Also... (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/21269-Reflect?p=286449&viewfull=1#post286449)

I came to really think about blm with Reflect, It wouldn't work.. I think cause BLM has Mana-wall, as it is kinda like a Reflect but the Magical and Physical Damage goes into the BLMs mp pool not back at the target.

Reflect Magical Damage > Target.
BLM - Mana-Wall Magical and Physical> MP Pool.
RDM has Phalanx and a very strong Stoneskin.
PLD has Phalanx and Reprisal.
SCH has a lot of pieces from other Jobs.
This being said leading us back to White Mage and maybe to some of the "New" Avatars.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

They did listen to the VW complaints and gave us tickets, they did listen to WoE and try their hardest to tweak it to become more popular, they did listen to puppet master and tweaked the job, etc...No they did not listen, they adressed it here after it was brought up in the JP forums.

[Yambo99]

How much easier do you want this game?

There has been no need for such a spell for 75 hnm's or endgame. Which was alot harder than it is now. Yet people still managed to win everything.

Even if this did come into the game the only job which should get it is paladin as now all paladin do is sub war, so there is no way they can avoid magic damage.

But this request is just another casual player moaning yet again.

GJ guys.

[SpankWustler]

How much easier do you want this game?

There has been no need for such a spell for 75 hnm's or endgame. Which was alot harder than it is now. Yet people still managed to win everything.

Give the players more tools. Give upcoming monsters properties that promote competent use of those extra tools and punish incompetent use. It's more challenging to need to mash five buttons to succeed rather than four.

Yeah, I know the Development Bros are going to just continue adding relatively squishy sacks of HP that scream "AOE ALL THE THINGS FOR MODERATE TO HIGH DAMAGE!" and proceed to do so, but it's nice to dream.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Rdm and Sch both have B+ enhancing magic and as for gear rdm has a with Duelist's hands +2, and Estoqueur's feet +2, cap = +24(slot with competition the competition is subtracted to show the lead it has over sch)
Sch has Savant's Bonnet +2 and Treatise Kirin's Pole(+10 aug)= +24(slots without competition that a rdm can use)
You can get a total of 505 enhancing magic (unless i missed a piece of gear) on both jobs. meaning 1 is not better then the other unless you account for sch having the power to double duration of the effects and make the spell AoE :)

Technically they don't. RDM has B+ and SCH and any other /SCH job gains B+ skill only under a JA. RDM is still technically they job with higest Enhancing as it's guaranteed.

Change arts and goodbye skill.

[Tesahade]

Technically they don't. RDM has B+ and SCH and any other /SCH job gains B+ skill only under a JA. RDM is still technically they job with higest Enhancing as it's guaranteed.

Change arts and goodbye skill.

I only seem to get 386 skill with /sch and B+ is 420(with full enhancing merits). Also as a Sch i never find myself casting enhancing magic without lights arts and absolutely never with dark arts up. Having the right arts up has yet to be a problem since i started the job so not sure i'm understanding your point.
Sch has B+ when it needs it so Rdm who has it all the time is better?
They both have it when they need it so they are on even footing other then the lead of +4 enhancing magic, that Kensagaku pointed out, Rdm has(515) over Sch(511)

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I only seem to get 386 skill with /sch and B+ is 420(with full enhancing merits). Also as a Sch i never find myself casting enhancing magic without lights arts and absolutely never with dark arts up. Having the right arts up has yet to be a problem since i started the job so not sure i'm understanding your point.
Sch has B+ when it needs it so Rdm who has it all the time is better?
They both have it when they need it so they are on even footing other then the lead of +4 enhancing magic, that Kensagaku pointed out, Rdm has(515) over Sch(511)

My point is SCH doesn't technically have it, they have D skill Enhancing. A JA changes that temporarily. There is times when you go Light Arts > Spell > Dark Arts > Wears off > Light arts recast: 0:30 it's not 100% reliable enhancing so as I said, not Natural B+ enhancing.

As for the 386 skill, not sure but isn't that because you're Enhancing isn't capped for the main job?

[Crossarius]

My point is SCH doesn't technically have it, they have D skill Enhancing. A JA changes that temporarily. There is times when you go Light Arts > Spell > Dark Arts > Wears off > Light arts recast: 0:30 it's not 100% reliable enhancing so as I said, not Natural B+ enhancing.

As for the 386 skill, not sure but isn't that because you're Enhancing isn't capped for the main job?

and still B+ Skill is B+ skill is B+ skill. I wouldn't cast a spell with such an effect under dark arts if it's gonna end up with enhancing skill modifying the spell, especially not if I am in buffing mode anyway.

Technically a SCH has B+ whenever he wants it by using LA. So technically SCH has B+. my two cents.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

and still B+ Skill is B+ skill is B+ skill. I wouldn't cast a spell with such an effect under dark arts if it's gonna end up with enhancing skill modifying the spell, especially not if I am in buffing mode anyway.

Technically a SCH has B+ whenever he wants it by using LA. So technically SCH has B+. my two cents.

The same is true as I said of any job /SCH (AKA. WHM)

[Tesahade]

The same is true as I said of any job /SCH (AKA. WHM)
:o you know what you just said means WHM/SCH > RDM/whatever > SCH/whatever is the enhancing magic order
whm can get +98 from gear rdm +95 and sch +91 interesting

not that a whm/sch has much to give in enhancing magics that are connected to skill

[Daniel_Hatcher]

:o you know what you just said means WHM/SCH > RDM/whatever > SCH/whatever is the enhancing magic order
whm can get +98 from gear rdm +95 and sch +91 interesting

Yup! Ever since SCH was added this has been the case.

[Hyrist]

In the whole flow of the spell taking action: spell activates → reflect animation is displayed → reflected spell animation is displayed on yourself, this final part is impossible to do, and the best we can do is cut this animation and only display it in the log. Additionally, the animation needs to be in the memory, but there is a pending concern that the size would be pretty rough.


Instead of keeping the third animation to be the same as the original spell animation, how about changing the second 'Reflect' animation to be similar to a "Spike" animation, with the ending result of the animation being your typical "en" proc.

For example, this would be the series of Animations of a foe casting a spell on a player.

As far as other balance issues, bypass them. Keep the formula simple - Reflects a single target, hostile spell. No need to worry about casting curing magic and have it reflected on some random enemy, keep it one to one and balance it around that.

Enemy finishes casting animation - > Player "Reflect" Animations procs - > Enemy receives "Enlight" Damage animation to represent the reflected spell. (Or a similar effect.)

That should be able to bypass the current problem with the way the Animation memory works, and you'd only have to keep one static 'reflected' animation in memory.

[Jamesy]

lets give blu reflect


LMFAO that's all