Impetus and Tantra Cyclas +2

[Camate]

There was a short comment from Mizuki Ito mentioning that they were looking into whether or not the augmented Impetus effect on Tantra Cyclas +2 needed to be revamped. This caught the interest of some Japanese players and Ito responded a bit more in-depth.



•Current Status
We are monitoring this, but will most likely keep the stats the way it is now.
　
　
•Concerns
“Augments Impetus” increases the maximum value of enhanced critical hit damage, and the compatibility with Victory Smite is extremely high.
The enhanced critical hit damage increases by 1% every time an attack lands, and it can rise to a maximum value of 50%.

As a result of preserving this power, we are concerned about the below conditions arising.
1.Excessive power inflation
2.Necessity of a monk for everything, as well as situations where “as long as there is a monk other jobs are not needed”.
Example, (like Abyssea) situations where monks can be selected for content since they are able to tank full time.
　
•Based on the above
With the recent version update, in order to prevent an overall power inflation we reduced the TP critical hit modifier for Ukko’s Fury and Victory Smite.

When looking into this adjustment, we also considered the stats on Tantra Cyclas +2 and we intended to cut the adjustments just close enough so equipment would not have to be changed, so there shouldn’t be any problems with this in regards to power inflation.

Also, in regards to monks becoming essential for all content, the below are some reasons why it will not happen:

oImpetus effect will only increase when attacking and misses will reset the effect.
oDifficult to fight safely without taking damage during high level content such as long HNM battles, etc.
oDifficult to function as a tank continuously regardless of the content or situation.

[Alhanelem]

So am i interpreting this right? Basically, "Well, we thought about nerfing this, but decided not to?" How nice of them, I guess.

[Annalise]

My concern is that by wanting to avoid adjusting the equipment for monk and instead changing the weaponskill itself, this has a negative effect on PUP who didn't have a problem in the first place. Ultimately in the sense of critical hits, this change does a lot more to PUP than it does to MNK, as PUP's critical hit rate is reduced by an overall greater percent than MNK with the weaponskill change. (My thinking is that 15->10% change to WS at 100% TP, say PUP had 20% crit-> reduced to 15%, and Monk had 70% crit-> reduced to 65%, PUP went down 1/4 overall whereas MNK went down by 1/14 overall).

[Draylo]

Um, there is no "necessity" for MNK. People just use it because its easy, and for blunt proc being able to cover a wide range of the procs. Anything can face tank in Abyssea, even WHM lol.

[Darkvalkyr]

Okay, well...we know why they reduced VS' crits, and it's for MNK getting a +2 armor piece that can break them unless they nerfed the weapon skill.

Hmm. Something's amiss...

[Cyn]

With no hints of sarcasm what so ever, I can safely say that I am convinced that those that work for SE in this game in concerns to the game's mechanics, don't actually play this game. Because I have never in all the Linkshell and pickup groups I've been in, have we felt that we have to have a monk as a mandatory fitting in a party/group, unless it was for Voidwatch to get procs. And in our linkshell, we do have access to people with Verethragna's.

Then again, if they did actually play, this would be a topic about whether to remove the enhancement of Utsusemi from the Ninja Emp Feet.

[SpankWustler]

Example, (like Abyssea) situations where monks can be selected for content since they are able to tank full time.

When the guy who played a lead role in designing Abyssea makes a comment like this, my face and my palm join in a seemingly passionate embrace. They come together with a jarring collision, like a revolutionary and his fiance during a short respite in a bloody civil war. When the dictator is toppled, he promises, they will wed. But for now, during this brief moment of peace...SMOOSH!

Monk is sometimes required because it can kill stuff quickly and cover every single Blue !! during blunt hours.

Warrior is sometimes required because it can kill stuff quickly and cover the majority of Red !! forever and ever.

Tanking isn't in it in Abyssea. It's not part of that part of Final Fantasy XI.

Stuff appears. A !! hopefully appears over that stuff's head. That stuff is made to violently and rapidly disappear. The end.

[Luvbunny]

This is just great example how utterly clueless the developer in how people actually play their game. Please please bring back the other group who created abyssea, the same one who are now in charge of fixing the FF14. The current group are extremely ignorant of what the player base want, need and wish. I really hope they listen better and take suggestions from the player base and use the forum and test servers more. There is hope, they did a few things right lately, let's hope this trend continue and stop all these nonsensical ideas from the developer...

[Runespider]

Reading the people in charge of this game now talking about FF players and how they play the game reminds me of my Aunt when she talks about the internet, she has no idea wtf she is on about either.

[Kimble]

This is just great example how utterly clueless the developer in how people actually play their game. Please please bring back the other group who created abyssea, the same one who are now in charge of fixing the FF14. The current group are extremely ignorant of what the player base want, need and wish. I really hope they listen better and take suggestions from the player base and use the forum and test servers more. There is hope, they did a few things right lately, let's hope this trend continue and stop all these nonsensical ideas from the developer...

Uh.. Mizuki Ito was the battle director of Abyssea, which makes this even more confusing since he created how abyssea works basically yet thinks people use monk in abyssea because they can tank, not because they can cover so many blue procs.

I see people all the time say "BRING BACK THE AYBSSEA PEOPLE!" which is funny because they didn't leave, they actually got promoted to lead role in FFXI, lol.

[Avarice]

This week on What Are the Developers Gonna **** Up Next?!, the continued dismantling of Monk!

But no, really, can we rotate developers again? I think the guys who made Abyssea have just about used up their value; let's not let them destroy what they made, which they seem to be hellbent on doing for the sake of "barance."

[Savlyn]

My concern is that by wanting to avoid adjusting the equipment for monk and instead changing the weaponskill itself, this has a negative effect on PUP who didn't have a problem in the first place. Ultimately in the sense of critical hits, this change does a lot more to PUP than it does to MNK, as PUP's critical hit rate is reduced by an overall greater percent than MNK with the weaponskill change. (My thinking is that 15->10% change to WS at 100% TP, say PUP had 20% crit-> reduced to 15%, and Monk had 70% crit-> reduced to 65%, PUP went down 1/4 overall whereas MNK went down by 1/14 overall).

This 100%. If 2 jobs can use the WS, one better than the other, it would make sense to fix the one that does OP dmg... not gimp them both. As a PUP, I would love something like Impetus for us then... something to not make VS worse than Stringing Pummel after we worked so hard on the Empy Weapon...

[Motenten]

1) Thank you for actually translating this. (For those not aware, this was posted a week ago on the JP side, and probably only translated because I brought it up. If you'd prefer, you can pretend to remain in blissful ignorance.) It may not have any effect going forward, but at least we can see some of what was going on, instead of being left in the dark.

2) While I might sympathize slightly with pups, Stringing Pummel was already on par with Smite. Pups lose almost nothing here. Annalise, your analogy doesn't really work since it makes no effort to really understand the full math behind such calculations.

3) Overall, I can see where they're coming from in trying to balance between VS and the Impetus effect. Since changing Impetus would hurt a lot more people (and sorry pups, but there's about 10 times as many mnks as there are pups), bringing Smite down a little was the logical choice.

4) I'll agree that the point about mnks being chosen as Abyssea tanks is somewhat dodging the full reasons behind that (blue procs, high survivability), but you can't deny that very strong offensive power was also a significant part of the consideration. But that's merely an example point anyway. It seems more that they were trying to express the common player shunning of 'lesser' jobs. IE: If you have mnk, come mnk; I don't care what other jobs you have available.

5) I no longer have any expectations that the devs play the game. It's not feasible on a multitude of levels, and even if they did play, their mindset is completely different from players. They'd approach the game from the angle of "this is the way it 'should' be played" or "I already know what's supposed to be done here" instead of the player approach of maximal optimization and corner case exploitation.

[Savlyn]

1)
2) While I might sympathize slightly with pups, Stringing Pummel was already on par with Smite. Pups lose almost nothing here. Annalise, your analogy doesn't really work since it makes no effort to really understand the full math behind such calculations.

3) Overall, I can see where they're coming from in trying to balance between VS and the Impetus effect. Since changing Impetus would hurt a lot more people (and sorry pups, but there's about 10 times as many mnks as there are pups), bringing Smite down a little was the logical choice.

Stringing Pummel is now better than VS outside of Abyssea, which is what I'm saying. Spending all the time making the weapon only to have it be beaten by a simple Nyzul climb WS kind of sucks. And so... basically because there are less PUPs, it doesn't matter if we get screwed?

[Babekeke]

My concern is that by wanting to avoid adjusting the equipment for monk and instead changing the weaponskill itself, this has a negative effect on PUP who didn't have a problem in the first place. Ultimately in the sense of critical hits, this change does a lot more to PUP than it does to MNK, as PUP's critical hit rate is reduced by an overall greater percent than MNK with the weaponskill change. (My thinking is that 15->10% change to WS at 100% TP, say PUP had 20% crit-> reduced to 15%, and Monk had 70% crit-> reduced to 65%, PUP went down 1/4 overall whereas MNK went down by 1/14 overall).

But if you put this into a perspective of overall damage, I think you'll find it's much closer due to the added Automaton damage, which wasn't nerfed at all. Not to mention that this is just WS, and didn't affect DoT of either job.

[Runespider]

I see people all the time say "BRING BACK THE AYBSSEA PEOPLE!" which is funny because they didn't leave, they actually got promoted to lead role in FFXI, lol.

Whatever happened Yoshi sure got a lot of respect in the company to get such an important double job on their lead title from working on Aby, I doubt he got that job from doing anything less than a massive role in how Aby turned out.

[Luvbunny]

So they are assuming that the majority of players want MONK on every single thing in the game - hence the nerf, and the same goes to Warrior, hence more nerfs. But they still refuse to acknowledge another key component to this, WHITE MAGE. The most commonly used jobs in abyssea are Monk, Warrior, White Mage, Ninja, Thief and Black Mage for reasons we are all aware of. With the most common duo for Monk and White Mage, or White Mage + Warrior, Ninja, Thief. Take out the white mage components, and most of these duos won't work as well, probably not till they do the upcoming cure spells update. And soon they probably will do Stardiver nerf because the WS is working as intended and actually VERY popular and well liked. When a content is successful and well liked, and well received by the majority of the player base where it becomes the normal standard, the developer should rejoice, celebrate and come up with more similar blockbuster contents. Instead they focusing on "barance", impossible to finish magian trials, major bomb of a neo nyzul, lottery luck of VW, and the atrocious Araise coming soon to 1% of the white mage population.

[Sparthos]

They're already boosting cure power for non-WHM so what are you getting at?

[Neisan_Quetz]

They're already boosting cure power for WHM's C1-4 so what are you getting at?

fixed that.

[Luvbunny]

They're already boosting cure power for non-WHM so what are you getting at?

What I am getting at is, it is not fair to single out Monk and Warrior as the two jobs that has been getting a few "barance" adjustment when there is another job in that equation that is also extremely powerful where other "healers" jobs are rendered useless and not needed. Granted I think they did great with white mage job and adjusted it to the point where it is the one and only best healer in the game. But at the same time, they neglect to do the same to Red Mage and left that job floundered in the last few years. If they want balance, do something with the other jobs so that you don't need to always have the pair of White Mage + Ninja/Monk/Thief/ on every dual combo in abyssea.

[Camiie]

2.Necessity of a monk for everything, as well as situations where “as long as there is a monk other jobs are not needed”.

I think their concerns about MNK being needed for everything are a year or more behind. My MNK is pretty well geared, but when there's a decent NIN around I'm not needed for tanking. I'm just there to help proc and zerg after proc.

[Urteil]

How about fixing Nether Void to actually absorb a third beneficial effect when used with Bale Flanchard +2.


You know, stuff that's actually broken.

[Malamasala]

How about fixing Nether Void to actually absorb a third beneficial effect when used with Bale Flanchard +2.


You know, stuff that's actually broken.

Don't break what is already broken!

[Luvbunny]

2.Necessity of a white mage for everything, as well as situations where “as long as there is a white mage on hand, no other healing/enfeebler jobs are not needed”.
Example, (like Abyssea) situations where white mages are needed and must have for ALL content since they are able to cure and "tank" full time.

There I fixed it. I know white mage can hold mob for a good while, I did this on several NM (as long as they don't petrify you) including Shinryu (over 10 mnts holding him while others are weakened) and other seals NM, waiting for the wiped to home point and come back to abyssea.

Cure 5 + 6, aquaveil, stoneskin, phalanx, utsusemi or sch strategem are all extremely potent ability/spells that can make white mage the only one left standing where everyone else is dead or weakened.

As of now, White Mage is perfect, with several job abilities that are super potent, and one of the most powerful club WS ever - and depending on the sub jobs, one of the most versatile mage jobs that is the best healer with hardly a competition and can enfeeble as good as Red Mage.

They should take a look at White Mage and follow this example on how to make a job PERFECT and not busy nerfing or neglecting other jobs. There are a couple great tweak lately that is amazing, namely for Puppetmaster and Scholar. We need more of these good news and not bad news in the name of "barnacle".

We should be able to take Red Mage or Scholar plus other melee jobs and do just as good as the White Mage + Ninja/Mnk/Thf/War combo. White Mage should not be the defacto choice for EVERY single thing we do in and outside abyssea when we need a healer job. A Red Mage or Scholar should be able to do close to what a white mage can, though with different strategy. As it is now, White Mage is hands down perfection, if you take white mage out of the duo equation in abyssea - the monks, thieves, ninjas and warriors would have a bit of challenge trying to solo.

[Annalise]

But if you put this into a perspective of overall damage, I think you'll find it's much closer due to the added Automaton damage, which wasn't nerfed at all. Not to mention that this is just WS, and didn't affect DoT of either job.

I'm not talking about overall damage (DoT, automaton, etc. etc.). I was only talking about a single weaponskill. And I simplified it a lot, yes, because you don't need to get into a lot of the math.

But really, PUP takes a much bigger hit on smites than Monk will by changing the weaponskill instead of impetus. Monk has a much higher critical rate than puppet master does.

And Smite skillchains better with your puppet than Pummel does, so it definitely has some good uses for PUP.

[Urteil]

Do you think Camate sends the dev-team responses like,

"I posted the translated stuff, and all they did was laugh at you, again."


I have a lot of sympathy for Camate, he dodges a lot of bullets as messenger that aren't really for him.

[Duelle]

We should be able to take Summoner or Scholar plus other melee jobs and do just as good as the White Mage + Ninja/Mnk/Thf/War combo.Fixed. Keep us out of whatever vendetta you have against WHM, please.

[Jerbob]

Please, don't even joke about Summoner being a healer. Red mages have native healing magic. Summoners do not. Regardless of what Summoners are technically capable of with equipment and subjobs, there should never be a situation where Summoners are called upon to be main healers outside of "Oh god everyone else is dead" emergencies.

I have the greatest respect for Red Mages and the ideals that Red Mage as a job should be aiming for outside of spamming healing magic and refresh, but please recognise that you are at least designed to be able to do that in a pinch. Summoners are not, and should not.

I am sorry but that is a pet peeve and it really grinds my gears.

[Neisan_Quetz]

You're as deluded as Laughtermath if you think Smn was a healer for anything that wasn't a pink bird.

[Elexia]

You're as deluded as Laughtermath if you think Smn was a healer for anything that wasn't a pink bird.

Because people didn't invite SMNs to heal in 2002-2005 or had them buff then help heal in a fair bit of events that didn't involve 2hring shit down in CoP BCNMs.

[Neisan_Quetz]

On anything serious? Nope.

Smn wasn't an original job either.

[Luvbunny]

Fixed. Keep us out of whatever vendetta you have against WHM, please.

I don't have vendetta against white mage, it's one of the best job they tweaked in a long time. Sadly the same cannot be said to other job such as Red Mage or Summoner (not that I want these two jobs to be main healer - but to be what they are excel at - right now Red Mage can barely heal - Scholar is the second best healer but you need to use Rapture for this). I just want to point out if they are single out Monk (and Warrior) lately with being it's all you need for everything, then they should admit that white mage is occupying the same slot. You don't need scholar and red mage if you have white mage, it's the only healer job you will ever need on events and pretty much it. White Mage + any melee jobs pretty much is the defacto combo for abyss.

If anything they should add job ability to Red Mage and Scholar that will let them heal slightly better than what they currently do but not going to overpower White Mage's cure 6 - but at least close to cure 5 would be nice - minus the stoneskin effect.

[Duelle]

You're as deluded as Laughtermath if you think Smn was a healer for anything that wasn't a pink bird.This was more to make a point of not clumping classes that probably shouldn't be healing into the healer role. And healing were pretty much the only way SMNs could get a party while leveling.

Because people didn't invite SMNs to heal in 2002-2005 or had them buff then help heal in a fair bit of events that didn't involve 2hring shit down in CoP BCNMs.Glad to see someone else remembers the past.

I don't have vendetta against white mage, it's one of the best job they tweaked in a long time.Well, complaining about WHM being the healer of choice (forgetting that WHM is the only healer archetype of the Final Fantasy IP) gives that impression. The healer job should be healing, after all.

I just want to point out if they are single out Monk (and Warrior) lately with being it's all you need for everything, then they should admit that white mage is occupying the same slot.Not really. WHM is basically living up to its intention and concept as the Final Fantasy healing job. That's fine by me.

If anything they should add job ability to Red Mage and Scholar that will let them heal slightly better than what they currently do but not going to overpower White Mage's cure 6 - but at least close to cure 5 would be nice - minus the stoneskin effect.Eh, my own bias comes into play here. When WHM was trumping RDM as healer in abyssea, I was the first to say good riddance.

[Neisan_Quetz]

One of those jobs actually has healing skill (for what it's worth, it'll actually do something post patch* and Native spells it can use more than once every 45 seconds, there's more precedence for one of them being a support healer than the other. I'll let you figure out which.

Smn is -still- not an original job. Your timeline is wrong.

By your logic, the only healer for anything ever should be whm, which is.. basically what the game is like right now.

[Luvbunny]

Well, complaining about WHM being the healer of choice (forgetting that WHM is the only healer archetype of the Final Fantasy IP) gives that impression. The healer job should be healing, after all. WHM is basically living up to its intention and concept as the Final Fantasy healing job. That's fine by me.

Not complaining, just wanna point out that the "need this job" for everything rule that SE seems to point the finger on Monk, is also apply to White Mage. As if they are saying Monk is broken so need to be "tweaked" - when Monk is probably good as it is and doing what it does best, just like White Mage is perfect now as the best healer job period. I know that depending on your set up, you do not need White Mage at all for healing spot. With a Dancer tank, White Mage is rather wasted spot, Scholar can fill the healer spot and have way better spells to complement dancer and still does well in terms of status removal and healing. What they did with Scholar and Dancer are commendable and should be extended to other jobs as well, a few that has been neglected. They did do good with Dragoon and Puppetmaster as well in the last few updates. What SE needs to do is to look at each jobs and make it fulfill its fullest potential and stop trying to "tweak nerf in the sake of BS barance".