[dev1091] Job Adjustments: Summoner

[Malamasala]

I need to point out several errors in the Job Adjustments.

1. Nobody asked for the changed perpetuation merits to instead be "Shorten summoning time of avatars/spirits".

Reason: You are offering 5% per merit, for 25% max. This is on summoning, which takes at most 10 seconds without wearing haste gear or fast cast gear. So if you wear terrible armors, you can merit a reduction of 2 seconds for 5 merits. This is beyond retarded and no other job has merits that give a gain less than 1 second reduction.

Solution: Stop wasting time on this and do what we requested. A reduction to spirit healing, buffing and nuke spells delay.

2. You are STILL not fixing the bug from 2003! It should be top priority to fix the bug that prevents spirit usage, before making any other changes.

Bug description: ASSAULT command resets delay on spells to max. That means if you are naked and assault, your spirit now will wait 48 seconds before casting... Choke. This completely negates any use from spirits EVER to exist. It is identical to resetting TP to 0 when you engage, or reset MP to 0 for SCHs so they have to refill it with Sublimation.

Solution: Just do whatever you do with all other pets. Let the timer be what it was when you assaulted. 0? Fine, it casts instantly. 15? Wait 15 more seconds. It is how it should have been 2003, and 2012 is sure not too soon to fix it.


Every single change you are doing to spirits are meaningless until you fix the bug. Tier V nukes means nothing if we have to wait 48 seconds to use it. Notice that is 48 seconds in melee range, because spirits run up and engage, instead of nuke at distance. Meaning it is 48 seconds to get silenced and have to restart WITHOUT ANY SPELL CAST.

Honestly. Stop wasting time. Either do it RIGHT and fix the bug, and we can use spirits today, or just plain delete them because they'll NEVER be used for anything but Siphon as long as the bug remains.


Extra info: I believe the bug is caused by spirits having 2 modes. Defensive modes, in which they only cast buffs (only light spirit has buffs), and Offensive mode, which casts both buffs and nukes.

Offensive mode has x2 casting timer, and defensive mode has about 24 seconds casting timer. Assaulting switches to offensive and resets timer to 48 seconds. This because some developer figured that it would be bad if pets started at 24 seconds cycles, and you could attack and skip 24 seconds delay on recasting spirits. Hence the "bug" is there to make sure we do not nuke + release.

However, one must see that it is better to have spirits exploited for 24 second nukes, than have them ignored for 48 seconds nukes.

[Krashport]

Maybe let us pick the actions/spells/etc.. from a list and have recast timers on spirits as we do with avatars on Bloodpacts!

[Yygdrasil]

let us pick

Wasting your breath.

[Arcon]

Personally I'd want them to fix the BP recast timer being reset when the mob dies before the BP goes off. It's kind of the SMN equivalent of the "too far away" message. Not spirit-related, but still the worst SMN bug at this point imo.

[Kristal]

Personally I'd want them to fix the BP recast timer being reset when the mob dies before the BP goes off. It's kind of the SMN equivalent of the "too far away" message. Not spirit-related, but still the worst SMN bug at this point imo.

I think it affects all pets. Automatons have the same issue, although the recent changes have lessened it's impact.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I think it affects all pets. Automatons have the same issue, although the recent changes have lessened it's impact.

Yeah, I also think all pets do, not sure of DRG, but the rest do. I'll assume it's to do with them technically being a JA for us.

[Arcon]

Yeah, I also think all pets do, not sure of DRG, but the rest do. I'll assume it's to do with them technically being a JA for us.

It's nothing that cannot be prevented though. If the mob moves out of range for example, the avatar readies the move and the recast is set, but then reset to 0 again if the BP doesn't go off. So maybe just include the check for "is the mob alive?" right after "is the mob in range?".

[Windwhisper]

As the system is of today - And even will be after the update of T5 spells -, Spririts will remain only to be used for Siphon.

Mala voices the obvious problem here. If the casting time is not reduced AND the magic accuracy enhanced all will be for naught and spirits will remain for decor like a flower in a vase and nothing more.

I personally dont see whats wrong with including them into Rage/Ward cycle like all the other avatars. it would fix at least 1 of the 2 problems above. Then again. Lesson #1 still remains intact: SE is evil. ( only half a joke sadly).

[Dallas]

In before the obligatory from Camate "other changes are on the way."


1) Spirit perp is going to be 5 without merits. Who cares that the merit changed? You kite, or you don't.

2) Until you hear otherwise, assume this is never going to be fixed. I definitely posted this bug to their attention a couple weeks ago.

The changes are welcome. They are major revisions. Not game changing, just major.

[Malamasala]

1) Spirit perp is going to be 5 without merits. Who cares that the merit changed? You kite, or you don't.

Quite certain I didn't complain on it being changed, I complained about what it is being changed into. I won't miss my perp merits due to the spirit change, but giving me 2 seconds summoning speed reduction instead is just pointless.

I'd rather have +2 summoning magic per merit on that category, if we are going for mainly useless changes. That would give me +10 skill, which is tons more worth than -2 seconds summoning.

[Dallas]

2 seconds? Sub rdm. It's at least 50% fast cast total. That's 4-5 more seconds of running, casting stoneskin, cure 4. That's one less combat round if you don't get away.

Let's also not forget the extremely LOW bar set by all the other merit choices.

[Yygdrasil]

@Mal: Don't bother with this guy. If he's the same Dallas (and I assume he is) as the one who was chased out of the BG forums, he once tried to seriously promote the concept of SMN/SAM.

He's really not worth your time.

[Dallas]

LOL, Iggy. That Claustrum guy is here too. I'm much, much harder to convince that you BGers know a thing about this job.

[Yygdrasil]

I can't decide if you're bad at spelling/grammar or just retarded.

[Dallas]

I'm not the one who had to look up the spirit timer formula, then concluded that spirits cast every 1.6 seconds.

You're not the expert on spirits, clearly. Ask one of your BG buddies how far they get with me when they look up a formula on a webpage. Take your own advice, Iggy, and let us work.

[Draylo]

Bahamut, nao

[Yygdrasil]

and let us work.

When I want my toilet unclogged, I'll be sure to give you a buzz.

[Neisan_Quetz]

2 seconds? Sub rdm. It's at least 50% fast cast total. That's 4-5 more seconds of running, casting stoneskin, cure 4. That's one less combat round if you don't get away.

Let's also not forget the extremely LOW bar set by all the other merit choices.

Say what now?

[Dallas]

Good one. Now go Google something about SMN so you can pretend you are contributing.


EDIT, for Iggy obviously

[Dallas]

Say what now?

The speculation is that the new merit is summon-spell-only fast cast. That would obviously stack with /rdm and our gear. If you kite, it matters, otherwise phffft.

[Yygdrasil]

Now go Google something about SMN so you can pretend you are contributing.

Says the lvl1 RDM. Grow up, kid. You're mom is likely calling you for dinner right about now. Better go before you get grounded.

[Dallas]

The comedy is multi layered today.

[Yygdrasil]

The comedy is multi layered today.

I'm not the one trying to justify SMN/SAM. Tell me... how did that go again?

[Dallas]

I'm not the one trying to justify SMN/SAM. Tell me... how did that go again?

Absolutely broken. Melee SMN is so much more powerful than the avatar that subbing /SAM is suicide. This thread needed some freshness. Thanks for asking.

[Yygdrasil]

Absolutely broken. Melee SMN is so much more powerful than the avatar that subbing /SAM is suicide. This thread needed some freshness. Thanks for asking.

Now THAT... is comedy

[Dallas]

You are from BG. You arent supposed to understand.

[Yygdrasil]

I'm not from BG. I'm from another forum entirely. I just happen to read BG on a regular basis. Nice try tho.

[Dallas]

And you know what they taught you. /Sam was figured out in what, 2006?

[Yygdrasil]

I'm done with you. If you think /SAM was a good choice for SMN, you probably shouldn't be harrassing people as much as you should be listening to them. I know it's a game and you're entitled to play it any any way you see fit... but that just doesn't apply to SMN/SAM. You're just doin' in wrong.

But it doesn't matter. If you think that's a logical job choice for any occasion at all... you're beyond reason. Enjoy your delusions

[Creelo]

Actually, Smn/sam could be effective under the right circumstances.

I've yet to personally see Smn melee done right though.

[Dallas]

I can only hope you are done with me. You are as unpleasant as you are uninformed. Good bye, Iggy.

[Economizer]

But it doesn't matter. If you think that's a logical job choice for any occasion at all... you're beyond reason. Enjoy your delusions

I don't understand. Why isn't /SAM a decent choice for Summoner?

Hvergelmir is a 390 delay weapon that gets a double damage aftermath when you use its weapon skill (considering the damage difference between using its WS and Spirit Taker I think it isn't an issue). With SMN/SAM you can use Hasso with about no penalty, you get third eye, and you'd get to continue full-timing Garuda.

Basically that means you get Hasso's 10% Haste, Garuda's 15% Haste, and 25% Haste in gear (but only listed at 25% so it might be short of cap), and on an eight hit build. Obviously you wouldn't be a Warrior, but you'd be doing a fair amount of damage and you'd have Garuda out while maintaining your MP levels handily.

I think it would be a bit close minded to think that such a play style wouldn't be viable in any situation ever.

[Dallas]

Eco, he thinks I'm someone else and is attacking blindly. He has no clue how many Hver SMN surround him.

[Neisan_Quetz]

The situations that call for Smn don't call for it meleeing. Nobody cares what you do in free time or on fodder mobs.

[Alhanelem]

I need to point out several errors in the Job Adjustments.You use 'error', meaning unintentional mistake, but you really mean "I need to point out several things I don't like in the Job Adjustments."


You are offering 5% per merit, for 25% max. This is on summoning, which takes at most 10 seconds without wearing haste gear or fast cast gear. So if you wear terrible armors, you can merit a reduction of 2 seconds for 5 merits. This is beyond retarded and no other job has merits that give a gain less than 1 second reduction.Umm, what? I would LOVE fast cast for summoning magic. You know how hard it can be to summon-kite various monsters with enhanced movement speed? This would make things like that easier. You don't look at it in seconds, you look at it in percent. Most job merits don't reduce a recast time by 25%. 2 seconds off an 8 second cast time is signfiicant. I don't know how you can't see that.

They are permanently lowering the perp cost of spirits, so the old merit is irrelevant. That's why they invented the new one.

It's practically impossible to balance spirits and avatars perfectly- One is always going to be at least slightly better than the other and the other will not get used. Since avatars are the main part of the job, obviously it should be those that are better. However, it would be rash and silly to jut "delete" the spirits, and virtually no other content in the game that has been released has ever been "deleted." Even in their current state, they have some uses.

[Malamasala]

Umm, what? I would LOVE fast cast for summoning magic. You know how hard it can be to summon-kite various monsters with enhanced movement speed? This would make things like that easier. You don't look at it in seconds, you look at it in percent. Most job merits don't reduce a recast time by 25%. 2 seconds off an 8 second cast time is signfiicant. I don't know how you can't see that.

First off, would YOU put 5 merits into this over anything else in your merit category? Because if not even you admit to actually using the system, why defend it?

Secondly, do you not have any haste or fast cast armors when summoning? I would assume you, who think soloing is so important, would have more or less all armors that you can find. When you combine reductions, your net result drops.

So what is 2 seconds reduction for a naked SMN, will just be ~1 second for you. You'd be dropping from about 6 seconds to 5 seconds. Would you claim 5 merits is worth saving 1 second of summoning time for you?

And as you said, it is good on increased movement speed NM solos, but nothing else. That isn't particularly large portion of the game. You might as well have merits that increased damage against vermin. Awesome against vermin NMs... but not on everything else.

Would a WHM merit "25% casting reduction of teleport spells"? It would be useful if your whole party has caught aggro and you need to run away. But most of the time, it wouldn't be worth investing 5 merits.

Overall the idea is appalling, but it isn't 100% useless. The problem is that SE shouldn't invest time into adding content that is 95% useless. That is why we have spirits.

[Shipp]

You use 'error', meaning unintentional mistake, but you really mean "I need to point out several things I don't like in the Job Adjustments."

Umm, what? I would LOVE fast cast for summoning magic. You know how hard it can be to summon-kite various monsters with enhanced movement speed? This would make things like that easier. You don't look at it in seconds, you look at it in percent. Most job merits don't reduce a recast time by 25%. 2 seconds off an 8 second cast time is signfiicant. I don't know how you can't see that.

I see a lot of post Aby SMNs solo horribly, and it's often this mindset they have. Now, I know you're not a noob (<3 Tahn), but how would fast casting an avatar be beneficial even on a mob with +movement?

I ask this, because there's one thing that should never be happening, and that is staying in range of the mob you are kiting. Now, I can understand for certain enclosed areas like BCs and for mobs that nearly instantly one-shot your avatar as soon as you get it summoned, thus not allowing you to run, however you have bigger problems than casting time in those situations. For any other kite-solo where you are not using BPs, or even if you are, you should be running completely out of range until you can no longer see the pet health bar. You can run a good distance past that point and gain extra buffer space if the mob has speed enhancement. I can't quite think of even one mob I've had a problem kiting, whether they were faster, slower, or average in movement speed.

Perhaps I'm overlooking something, so please shed some light on which mob I'm forgetting if that's the case.

[Alhanelem]

First off, would YOU put 5 merits into this over anything else in your merit category?I can't say for sure, but it's definitely far more worth considering than "elemental MP cost" was.



Secondly, do you not have any haste or fast cast armors when summoning?I sub WHM, so I always have haste available. fast cast stacks with this. I"d rather have more of it naturally than have to have special gear for it.


but how would fast casting an avatar be beneficial even on a mob with +movement? Because it means more breathing room as far as running off to resummon. You have to run much further to resummon for +movement speed monsters than those that don't. And for some NMs, your summon doesn't last long enough to make it a good distance. Until I got Ducal Guard atma, there were several abyssea monsters that this issue came up on. Now, it's not as often a dealbreaker, but if also effectively reduces the chance of failing to cast a summon while you're being beat on, which is also important. I'd consider dropping the physical attack merits I have remaining to put into this, simply because those merits are nearly worthless.

[Dallas]

The situations that call for Smn don't call for it meleeing. Nobody cares what you do in free time or on fodder mobs.

No one cares that you know how to BP/release.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Please show one example where smn/sam meleeing is useful on something that isn't fodder that could be killed faster by another job.

[SpankWustler]

No one cares that you know how to BP/release.

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Man was matter, that was Snowden's secret. Drop him out a window, and he'll fall. Set fire to him and he'll burn. Bury him and he'll rot, like other kinds of garbage. The spirit gone, man is garbage. That was Snowden's secret. Ripeness was all.

The point is there ain't no point.

[Dallas]

Please show one example where smn/sam meleeing is useful on something that isn't fodder that could be killed faster by another job.

How about everything that happens up until the point where you suddenly aren't a waste of space? How about you retire SMN completely, and let an Abyssea PL'd mule replace you?

[Neisan_Quetz]

So you admit you're fairly useless laughtermath, aka nothing's changed since people tore apart your idiotic claims before.

[Dallas]

So, just for the record, you never in 6 years convinced a soul you were competent at this job outside of a niche? Why should I feel bad? I'm clearly better than you. Simple facts, almost everything is zergable.

[Yygdrasil]

I'm clearly better than you.

Being arrogant enough to say this discredits everything you have ever and will ever say. Good Job.

[Dallas]

Ahh, Iggy. It's not arrogance. It's a complete lack of competition. The moment you EVER say "play another job," you lose.

[Yygdrasil]

Ahh, Iggy. It's not arrogance. It's a complete lack of competition. The moment you EVER say "play another job," you lose.

Keep defending yourself. It only makes this more fun for me.

[Dallas]

I'm glad you can find enjoyment far from serious discussion.

[Yygdrasil]

I find enjoyment in knowing that no one cares how good you think you are at a video game. The fact that you exist is enough to make me laugh.

[Yygdrasil]

How about everything that happens up until the point where you suddenly aren't a waste of space? How about you retire SMN completely, and let an Abyssea PL'd mule replace you?

Way to keep on topic. lol