Dark Magic Nukes ~ Because we have no Firepower!

[Geabrielle]

Alright, here's the promised thread! I've seen a lot of asking for dark based nukes and I've decided to ask my brother and sister dark knights to put their thoughts here.

I'll begin by saying, inflammatory as this may seem, that my Black Mage and Comet say "HI" and that dark based nukes are not that great. Dark Magic seems to be one of the most resisted forms of magic in Final Fantasy 11 by just about everything. Red Mage also says "welcome to my banana boat" because enfeebles are there until they implement their 'update'.

I would say a lot but I'll be frank, ALL of the Dark Knight community save a miserly few seems to have forgotten that we have access to elemental magic, which is laughably the source of our fire power. But do you really know WHY it sucks? I'm sure you do because I've seen it said.


WE
NEED
MAGIC ATTACK BONUS NATIVELY!!!!!

That is what our lack of firepower boils down to, not arguably, dark based nukes. This is being said using Impact as the only shared dark nuke I can use between BLM and DRK, is that I can destroy any dark knight casting it because of MAB.


So, in closing, before we ask for 'dark based nukes' how about we ask for the actual gun before choosing the bullets, friends.

Ready!

Set!

GO!:cool:

[Raucent]

you at least can attempt to use Impact outside Abby I need an mp build to use on EV i dont want to imagine a GK DRK trying lol

as far as MAB aye we do need it. for the hell of it here's a comparison RDM gets a native MAB and T IV nukes yet DRK gets 0 MAB and has higher elemental magic skill but only access to T3 Nukes

[Badieh]

Sch should get it too. (Even though this is the Drk thread...)

[Geabrielle]

Scholar has job abilities that boost their attack power, so they don't count. :p (my hubby is a career sch)

[Badieh]

Scholar has job abilities that boost their attack power, so they don't count. :p (my hubby is a career sch)

Yeah but Schs and Drks could have a couple of levels of Magic Attack Bonus Traits. At least 3 levels, which is the same as how many Rdm has.

[Geabrielle]

From what I understand, they won't give sch a native magic attack bonus trait because their Arts boost their base skills. They also have that JA Ebullience, or something like that that also is a major boost. If they added MAB traits it would throw the balance between SCH and BLM, of which the one is a tactical job and the other as a pure master. That is why they don't and shouldn't get MAB traits. SCHs are NOT BLMs nor should they try to be. (no offense meant with that, but I've had to deal with wanna be mini blm scholars and it annoys me)

Also, you get MAB from rdm sub so it's moot point for native level 3, because they don't stack.

[Badieh]

From what I understand, they won't give sch a native magic attack bonus trait because their Arts boost their base skills. They also have that JA Ebullience, or something like that that also is a major boost. If they added MAB traits it would throw the balance between SCH and BLM, of which the one is a tactical job and the other as a pure master. That is why they don't and shouldn't get MAB traits. SCHs are NOT BLMs nor should they try to be. (no offense meant with that, but I've had to deal with wanna be mini blm scholars and it annoys me)

Also, you get MAB from rdm sub so it's moot point for native level 3, because they don't stack.

I wish I could message you in private instead of clogging the Drk forums with Sch talk, (unless there is a way to so that I don't know about..) but with /Rdm or /Blm you get Magic Attack Bonus II. Why not just add a Magic Attack Bonus III that is native to Sch and Drk. Blm get's Magic Attack Bonus V. Surely this won't make Sch over powered, right?

[Geabrielle]

Start a similar thread on sch board and we can discuss all we want. I'll even put on my mage coat and hat.

[Badieh]

Start a similar thread on sch board and we can discuss all we want. I'll even put on my mage coat and hat.

=) Your silly.

[Rezeak]

SCH was always about choosing the right sub for the situation and yea we always choose RDM case it beats everything hands down now but before there was more too it either way the fact is SCH can nuke as hard as a BLM and can main heal in alot of cases.

Imo making it overpowered (lol thats why i play SCH) so asking for a buff to improve something on SCH that is already strong is dumb tho.... SE should give ya MAB teir 1 just so you still sub RDM and it has no effect haha

[Transmit]

I actually agree with this. DRK elemental nukes right now are just the irritating spells I have to scroll through to get to the slightly more useful ones. The job has a whopping 404 base elemental magic skill at 99, and its not used in the slightest. Give them Magic Attack Bonus II by 99, and give them access to maybe the lower half of T4 nukes (stone,water,aero,fire~) and most DRKs would be happy enough with this. Nuking shouldnt outshine your melee damage in the slightest, nor should DRK infringe on SCH / BLM / RDM's level of nukes, but it would be useful for those times where melee damage isnt getting you anywhere.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

From what I understand, they won't give sch a native magic attack bonus trait because their Arts boost their base skills. They also have that JA Ebullience, or something like that that also is a major boost. If they added MAB traits it would throw the balance between SCH and BLM, of which the one is a tactical job and the other as a pure master. That is why they don't and shouldn't get MAB traits. SCHs are NOT BLMs nor should they try to be. (no offense meant with that, but I've had to deal with wanna be mini blm scholars and it annoys me)

Also, you get MAB from rdm sub so it's moot point for native level 3, because they don't stack.

SCH's power in in arts and JA's, they wont ever get any trait that boosts an skill specifically such as MAB.

That said DRK should get at least tier I. Though personally I'd just remove Elemental Magic from them completely, and create all new Dark style spells to give them exclusively.

[Geabrielle]

I've heard that particular argument as well and hate to be the bearer of crappy news but they will never remove the elemental magic from Dark Knight. Personally, being able to kick ass and cast elemental spells was what drew me to the job all those years ago so I may be biased in my affection. :/ So why can't we try to work with what we're stuck with? We have the firepower potential we just need the lovely MAB trait and I definitely want Tier 2 since ele spells are a bout half the spell group, AND we have higher skill than a RDM. Even if they give us dark celerity there's still a huge chunk of possibility sitting there. If we're going to ask for adjustment we may as well start with what's there.

And pray they don't give us dark based nukes without the MAB or you all just opened yourself up for more frustration.

[mattkoko]

i kinda have an idea about the whole elemental spell thing. i mentioned this in another post too. but, since they dont want to give us a dark magic nuke, to make elemental spells useful, how about an ability that gives a magic attack bonus and makes the next elemental spell use dark magic skills instead of elemental skills. and make it kind of a low level ability so lower level drks can use it as they level with the t1 and t2 spells. and maybe give a trait that will increase the power magic attack power the ability grants when you get to certain levels. just a thought lol

[Kysaiana]

DRK really doesn't need MAB traits since casting an elemental nuke only hurts your TP and damage output. Unless they add a dark magic based line of nukes and the fabled dark magic version of elemental celerity, at which point I could see MAB traits being useful. As far as SCH goes, it would be nice if you could get over MAB II but I'm sure SE would say something about BALANCE.

[Geabrielle]

DRK really doesn't need MAB traits since casting an elemental nuke only hurts your TP and damage output. Unless they add a dark magic based line of nukes and the fabled dark magic version of elemental celerity, at which point I could see MAB traits being useful. As far as SCH goes, it would be nice if you could get over MAB II but I'm sure SE would say something about BALANCE.

I'll put on my horns for this. Ahem.

yes, yes dark does need an MAB trait. How else are we going to get the firepower we want? How does casting hurt your TP and damage output when spells ARE damage and Occult Acumen gives you TP. Is it more than your weapon swing? No, arguably it's not, but I can also say it's a matter of timing which darks these days don't have because they don't cast.

Dark based nukes aren't that great. Seriously has not comet and impact made any impressions? I love them on principle because it's freaking Comet, flaming rocks rain from the sky, but that's a superficial kind of thing. But I refuse to ask for them before I ask for the MAB simply because they are just a waste of MP like the rest of the spells we have otherwise .... given popular opinion. Its just like saying Samurais don't need Store TP.

[Transmit]

I would argue against any scenario where DRK's magic would be boosted enough to be worthwhile to replace you TPing and WSing on the majority of mobs. The scenarios I'm honestly thinking of are those rare but hugely melee resistant mobs kicking about, or mobs with physical shields, or times where you only want a few people on the mob etc.

[Geabrielle]

If I'm not using my MP I may as well go level warrior, because that's all this particular case is making. I'm a DRK, I alter my style of engagement depending up on the situation. Many of those situations may be the scenarios a lot of people consider casting a waste of time, but in all honesty I wouldn't BE on drk if I what I was doing wasn't contributing to the situation. basically, it's about a person's particular play style and how they engage a situation. It's just like a blue setting their spells for particular conditions, effects and what have you. Situational, but never useless.

[Raucent]

as a slight j/k when has abs-chr not been useless

[Geabrielle]

when it's a vw proc of course Raucy :)

[Kysaiana]

A few tiers of MAB isn't going to make T3 nukes shine on DRK. It certainly wouldn't hurt the job any to add it though. If you want to nuke on DRK, that's fine, but I can't think of any situation where you wouldn't be better off just swinging with twilight scythe if normal damage isn't effective.

[Geabrielle]

My first answer would be ... because I have a Redemption. My second and more important answer is that the MAB is NOT for the sake of the elemental magic .. it's for the dark based nukes everybody keeps crying for. I'm asking to fix what sucks about nuking on dark knight before asking for more useless mp sinks.

And I know a lot of situations where casting as gotten the job done before Twilight Scythe was dropped on DRK as a giant half-hearted apology. There are also current situations where it comes in handy as well. If I couldn't do that I'd be doing half my job.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I've heard that particular argument as well and hate to be the bearer of crappy news but they will never remove the elemental magic from Dark Knight. Personally, being able to kick ass and cast elemental spells was what drew me to the job all those years ago so I may be biased in my affection. :/ So why can't we try to work with what we're stuck with? We have the firepower potential we just need the lovely MAB trait and I definitely want Tier 2 since ele spells are a bout half the spell group, AND we have higher skill than a RDM. Even if they give us dark celerity there's still a huge chunk of possibility sitting there. If we're going to ask for adjustment we may as well start with what's there.

And pray they don't give us dark based nukes without the MAB or you all just opened yourself up for more frustration.

SE will never do anything that may take some time, hence reworking current content or rehashes instead of making new, unique content.

MAB is nice, but Dark nukes could work without it. SE makes the base damage, if they made it decently high, they wouldn't need to give MAB.


DRK really doesn't need MAB traits since casting an elemental nuke only hurts your TP and damage output. Unless they add a dark magic based line of nukes and the fabled dark magic version of elemental celerity, at which point I could see MAB traits being useful. As far as SCH goes, it would be nice if you could get over MAB II but I'm sure SE would say something about BALANCE.

It's nothing to do with Balance. It's the job itself. SCH wont get any traits that don't work on all spells like Conserve MP. The job itself dictates it's not a conventional mage. The most I could see SE giving is equipment that has something like: Dark Arts: Enhances "Magic Attack Bonus" effect.

Tranquil Heart seems an exception to the job, and is more likely a case of added just because RDM and WHM received it. (proved further by gaining a lesser tier than both RDM and WHM) I'm not against SCH getting it, just SE most likely wont grant it outside of Equipment to them. Especially with the power behind their 30 second JA's.

[Fyreus]

If we got a JA that doubled 1 damage spell for drk with a 1min recast then elemental nukes would seem worthwhile (we got quite a bit of mab anyway) that or a stance where our magic casts are stronger but cost us recast i'd take it. That'll allow me to pick up scythe, level it, and spend merits on entrophy or something. All i want is firepower and there's nothing wrong with giving us T4 spells tbh nin can do damage and turn around and use a nuke setup just like blu.

We do damage after all, no?

[Raucent]

If we got a JA that doubled 1 damage spell for drk with a 1min recast then elemental nukes would seem worthwhile (we got quite a bit of mab anyway)

the only MaB we have atm is gear based

[Rezeak]

Really you shouldn't worry about MAB too much it#s not even that big of an increase anyway it's the abilty to use HQ/Magin staffs for huge boosts in DMG and macc

[Fyreus]

Yes all our MAB is on gear and we get some really good nuking gear (no sarcasm!), that's why i'd like to see a JA like the old FF games like Double or Triple. Man if i could find a ps2 to hdmi adapter i'd have some fun again.

[Dart]

why is this thread still going on?

[Fyreus]

Why shouldn't it?

[Rezeak]

why is this thread still going on?

cause people are still posting in it and that's how a forum works.

ps glad to help you understand the basics of forums.

[Dart]

cause people are still posting in it and that's how a forum works.

ps glad to help you understand the basics of forums.

gotcha, I guess it really is fitting with this forum. Silly/pointless thread, silly/pointless posts

[Rezeak]

glad to help anyway if ya have anything to post on topic i'd be happy to hear it if ya have any other questions on threads or forums http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_forum will help ya.

As to not derail the thread any further.

I still don't think MAB is needed to get DRK nuking (it'll add too little)

More dark nukes based soley Dark magic skill like Drain III and a high mp, Decent DMG, Low cast time Nuke or 3 to make the most of Occult acumen and entropy a new style for DRK.

I think increasing the potency of Drain 1/2 would be another step forward too since our hp has increase alot and drain/2 has not i still feel Drain 1 and 2 should be simular to Cure IV around 600-800 hp recovered since the recast is so long.

[Saiken253]

I completely agree with you Rezeak. They should add some magic DPS to DRK's arsenal. It's probably the #1 thing SE could add to drk to separate it from the other melee. I had always envisioned DRK to have a magical aspect to it that would either help bolster it's attacks or as another way of dealing damage. I don't want to be a war or a sam while i'm on drk. I want to stand out as a melee when I'm on drk... Because as it stands we're mostly unconventional at best.

[Dart]

I completely agree with you Rezeak. They should add some magic DPS to DRK's arsenal. It's probably the #1 thing SE could add to drk to separate it from the other melee. I had always envisioned DRK to have a magical aspect to it that would either help bolster it's attacks or as another way of dealing damage. I don't want to be a war or a sam while i'm on drk. I want to stand out as a melee when I'm on drk... Because as it stands we're mostly unconventional at best.

to stand out as a melee on drk, you have to compete with war and sam. You do realize what you're saying right?

endark helps us boost our attack with our magic!!!

Seriously can we fix the real issue with the job, our ws damage and then worry about magic?

Entropy was a nice step in the right direction, but more is needed to ever be more than just a token job.

[Saiken253]

I do realize what I'm saying. I think you're missing my point though. Drg does "reliable" extra damage through JAs. Why can't we have reliable extra damage through spells(as was somewhat the intent SE had for drk) that doesn't impede our meleeing. the spell would have to be as fast as stun and deal no less thann a regular swing for it to be worth it... which can be considered fairly OP. But if SE had a good recast on them(to where we can't spam them as much as say Bio or Dia, but maybe have a 1min recast) idt it would cause that much of a fuss from the other jobs. Also, i'm just going off on the idea that SE is trying to make drk a little more magic oriented. Kinda like the Antithesis off BLU; where BLU's melee is reliable extra damage for their magic, our magic could be the little extra damage for our melee. Again, I don't want drk to be so similar to war or sam or drg, I want it to stand out on it's own as a DD(instead of just swinging my weapon and WSing with the occasional stun thrown in). WS damage could be better yes, but i'd also like to see more changes to drk to make it what it was envisioned to be.

[Rezeak]

Just gonna say outside of abyssea i rarely get beaten for DMG on DRK since resolution was added so imo DRKs for DMG is fine i mean even ukko WARs/vere mnks arn't keeping up alot of the time (maybe it's to do with skill lvl but isn't that what it should be about more than what job you play).

Now yes there is an issues w/ using scythe on DRK that sux that why i feel DRK should be able to abuse the mp excess Entropy gives meaning we have 2 stances Scythe and great sword.

[Dart]

Sorry to break it to you, but you play with shitty war, sam, mnk's then.

[Rezeak]

Sorry to break it to you, but you play with shitty war, sam, mnk's then.

Or your SAM,WAR,MNKs are playing with some really shitty DRKs... prolly the ones still subbing /SAM in VW

Honestly not really fussed on your opinion just saying if i'm averaging 2.5-4k in WS dmg i don't see any issue with our WS dmg.

[saevel]

SE should just give DRK's Fire VII already, cause ya know ya'll need more fire power

http://www.danzfamily.com/archives/blogphotos/07/fire_power.jpg

[Dart]

Or your SAM,WAR,MNKs are playing with some really shitty DRKs... prolly the ones still subbing /SAM in VW

Honestly not really fussed on your opinion just saying if i'm averaging 2.5-4k in WS dmg i don't see any issue with our WS dmg.

ITT: pulling numbers out of my ass to prove my point.

is pchan in this thread?

[Rezeak]

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j218/Rezeak/Example1.png

that was on pil wasn't my best fight but was basically the only parse i have saved

anyway Dart like i said i see no issues with our WS DMG since i almost always parse a higher average vs ukon,vere DDs.

Either way here's some basic data

Resolution is 5 hit WS with a 0.95 ftp w/ Gorgets and Moodshade with 100% STR mod
133 Weapon DMG + 175 from STR and 10 from fstr = 318 Bassed DMG
318*0.95 = 302 Base DMG
302*2.2(avarage cratio at capped atk) = 664 Base DMG
664*5 = 3323

So at capped attack
5 hit resolution will average 3323 DMG w/ Souleater = 4023
6 hit resolution will average 3987 DMG w/ Souleater = 4827
7 Hit resolution will average 4651 DMG w/ Souleater = 5632

Ofc this is with ragnarok and it doesn't take everything into account like level difference but since my highest resolution has been 6k on pil the numbers are pretty close to what i'm acully does (these numbers are higher)

Ofc the only REAL thing is that you need to capp to reach these crazy numbers it attack and thats why CORs roll chaos and DRK sub /WAR in VW

[Saiken253]

Well yes, my WS damage isn't bad, but it could be better considering the huge base damage we have on our weapons compared to other jobs :<

[hiko]

I still don't think MAB is needed to get DRK nuking (it'll add too little)

More dark nukes based soley Dark magic skill like Drain III and a high mp, Decent DMG, Low cast time Nuke or 3 to make the most of Occult acumen and entropy a new style for DRK.


if you want to use entropy you'd like some mab trait!

my suggestion: give MAB and add a new ja/jt that lower casting time but raise MPcost

[Fyreus]

to stand out as a melee on drk, you have to compete with war and sam. You do realize what you're saying right?

endark helps us boost our attack with our magic!!!

Seriously can we fix the real issue with the job, our ws damage and then worry about magic?

Entropy was a nice step in the right direction, but more is needed to ever be more than just a token job.

I haven't been watching the forums lately but the point is to boost our damage output. By giving us something to.. say... MB with then we're looking at something like a third WS or extra damage which no drk would complain about.. plus the TP bonus. The ideal nuke would be drain 3, darkbasednuke, or something with 250mp and 2 sec cast to make use of such things like entropy and skillchains. why do i mention scythe? because it could use some love. right now my game is all about resolution and i don't see sams doing near the same amount of damage outside abyssea which makes me wonder what's going on.

[Duelle]

T3 nukes cap at a stupidly low number (compared to T4 and 5 nukes) for the amount of time they take to cast. I don't think magic attack bonus would fix that. If I had my way, I'd have two versions of elemental nukes. BLM/RDM version, and DRK version. DRK version would be short cast, low damage and have some sort of secondary effect a DRK could capitalize on. That way it'd be something to throw in while you're swinging away.