Proposed Summoner Adjustments: Spirits Ahoy

[Karbuncle]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/20945-dev1091-Job-Adjustments-Summoner

^

Giving Elementals Tier V spells, and Drastically reducing their Perpetuation Cost. To only cost 7mptic (5mp/tic With our Auto-Refresh II).

I Mean, Spirits are still weak, Have no Magic Attack bonus, and overall prefer to spam Rasp, Choke, Silence, etc over actually nuking... But, At least they'll be free for Elemental Siphon O_O

That and, Protect/Shell V For Light spirit is a win in my book.

Oh: They're also changing Merits of the Elemenal Spirits to "Reduces Summoning Magic Casting Time" (I.E Fast Cast for Summoning) Which, Unfortunately, Will Remain useless. thanks to Avatar Acc, attack, magic Acc, and Matk Sharing the same Merit category.

Overall, Protect/Shell V is my Bright side to this :)

[Imakun]

Fenrir's adjustment could have been a lot better. What about getting rid of the stupid Moon phase thing and make it's BP based on.. oh I don't know.. Summoning Magic? I guess that would make too much sense.
Spirits I don't care about for the simple reason their AI is apparently run by brain damaged BLM chipmunks. The tier V spells are a total waste considering they should have been there along with their respective level cap rise.
Perp cost I guess is good for almost free Siphon. Shell/Protect V is meh, same reason as above (hi Regen instead of Cure).

Merits to Summoning Cast speed are cute but I'd never get rid of merits into Mag/Atk/Acc. No matter how small their impact can be, it's better than nothing.

/rantoff

[Rakshaka]

Finally! Thank you! For awhile I was afraid that they just weren't able to update spirits at all because of massive spaghetti code issues, but evidently that isn't the case! This was a much needed update, and I'm glad they took the time to fix it. (Edit: they still need to add other spells like a higher regen tier for light spirit; and they also need to fix the magic skill/acc issues with the spirits as well). The perpetuation costs are absolutely wonderful as well. It's amazing that for so long, the spirits costed more than the avatars, which were much much much more useful. I wonder what their original reasoning was for having their perpetuation so high to begin with. In any case, I'm glad it's down to where it should be now. Heck, even low lvl smns might be able to use them to level up now, instead of only using them for a fast distraction while they zone away from a dangerous mob.

Edit: Even with this new update, heavenward howl is still worthless compared to other en-effects (i.e. inferno howl). It just doesn't make any sense, why would you want to drain 10 hp per tick instead of doing an extra 45 damage per hit? Why would you want to have a part time enaspir effect? This assumes that all the mobs you're fighting have mp (otherwise it's worthless) and that the people you're buffing use MP!! How many melees use MP that don't already have their own en-effect? Just one! Blue mages! Why does this horrible ability exist?!! Please enlighten us Community Reps!

[Badieh]

Yo Karbuncle, add the "[dev1091] Job Adjustments: Summoner" in your title por favor.

Also light spirit doesn't get cure 6? But I am grateful for the changes. I'm assuming they are going to tackle the spirits' AI soon. Hopefully this is just the icing on the cake.

[Yygdrasil]

Quick question to those of you who have actually used Spirits... ever...

I don't recall ever seeing a skillup to Summoning Magic when a Spirit would cast a spell. We only get skillups from BPs and the actually act of summoning, correct?

[Badieh]

Quick question to those of you who have actually used Spirits... ever...

I don't recall ever seeing a skillup to Summoning Magic when a Spirit would cast a spell. We only get skillups from BPs and the actually act of summoning, correct?

Yep, that is correct. It would be great if Summoning Magic has a chance to skill up when a spirit uses a spell.

[Yygdrasil]

Thanks. Like I said... I've never actively used them for anything other than Siphon. I'll occasionally pull out Light Spirit before attempting to solo a BCNM or some NM to get a quick Protect IV and Shell IV that I can't do myself... but that's been about it.

[Sargent]

That's just sad.

At this rate the best attacks we're getting post 75 are from Spirits.

[Yygdrasil]

So I had to go back and actually research the formula to calculate Elemental Spirit casting delay... since I've never considered using it until now. As I remembered, it has everything to do with Summoning Magic Skill. Ultimately I wanted to know if my delay reduction would be worth the merits it would cost me in other areas. The answer is yes. The formula looks like this:

(48 + Summoning Magic Skill Cap - Current Summoning Magic Skill) / 3

The current Summoning Magic Skill cap for 99 is 417. My Summoning Magic Skill is 375. Plugging that into the formula:

(48 + 417 - 375) / 3 = 30 seconds exactly

That calculation does not include my gear or merits that augment my Summoning Magic Skill. So I looked them all up and listed them here:

Summoner's Bracers +2
+15

Caller's Doublet +2
+10

Evoker's Ring
+10

Caller's Horn +2
+9

Caller's Pendant
+9

Soulscourge
+7

Caller's Spats +2
+6

Vox Grip
+3

Merits
+16

For a grand total of... +85

Adjusting the formula to include this... I got:

(48 + 417 - 375 - 85) / 3 = 1.666~ seconds

LMAO... there has to be a floor somewhere that you can't go past... but it's nice to know that I hit it already no matter what.

In fact... funny enough... Summoner's Spats have an augment that lowers casting time by 5 seconds. Convenient... because...

48 + 417 - 375 - 85 - 5 = 0

If I could manage to find additional gear that would make up for the 6 skill points I lose out on for swapping pants... I'd be in business.

That makes me smile.

I guess I won't have to put any merits into Spirit casting delay after all. That is... unless the -25% lowers the floor on the timer... in which case... yeah... I will.

[Economizer]

Also light spirit doesn't get cure 6?

I think it does, and if it doesn't it should. Pets/NPCs get more use out of the spell then White Mages do considering potency/MP considerations.

[Babekeke]

You're missing some brackets which make the formula make sense:

48s + (417 - 375 - 85)/3 = 48s - 14.33 = 34 second recast. 29 with summoner's spats (once you skill up that 6 that you're losing from other legs).

Also, I'm still undecided as to whether merits shorten RECAST time, or CASTING time.


*This enhancement will shorten the cast time of all summoning magic spells by 5 percent per merit.

[Yygdrasil]

Thanks! I knew something had to be off.

Also: considering Spirit casting time is around 2 seconds... I can't imagine that would be the area affected. It has to be the delay between spells.

If it really turns out to be Casting Time (time to summon the spirit) then SE is trolling us hard with that one. 25% for 5/5 merits doesn't make a difference that a human could even notice.

[Yygdrasil]

You're missing some brackets which make the formula make sense:

48s + (417 - 375 - 85)/3 = 48s - 14.33 = 34 second recast. 29 with summoner's spats (once you skill up that 6 that you're losing from other legs).

Actually... could you elaborate on this more and show me where you're getting this adjusted formula from?

Wiki shows it as (48 + SMNcap - SMNskill)/3 with the 48 inside the brackets. BGwiki doesn't seem to have the formula at all. I just want to know where you're getting it from. Trust me... it sounds more realistic, I just need a source to link back to if i reference this in the future on my forum. I don't want bad info spreading around.

[Badieh]

I think it does, and if it doesn't it should. Pets/NPCs get more use out of the spell then White Mages do considering potency/MP considerations.

No light spirit does not get cure 6, but it got Holly 2 and Banish 4 before this update interesting enough.

[Yygdrasil]

I'm no algebra wiz... but I did my math like this:

417 - 375 - 85 = -43 (But I'm assuming for a bottom of 0) which devided by 3 is obviously still 0

Then I add in 48.

With the Feet giving an additional -5 seconds I get 43.

With the new merit (assuming it's for recast time and also assuming it's calculated before any other factors) I get (48 - 12) - 5 for 29... same as you.

[Imakun]

The wording makes it pretty clear to me that it's talking about Casting Time for Summoning Magic Spells (Avatars and Spirits), aka the time it takes for us to summon Avatars and Spirits.

[Badieh]

The wording makes it pretty clear to me that it's talking about Casting Time for Summoning Magic Spells (Avatars and Spirits), aka the time it takes for us to summon Avatars and Spirits.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure this is what it is.

[Yygdrasil]

Well... that's underwhelming.

[Badieh]

Well... that's underwhelming.

(Lol!) I know, right?!....

[Babekeke]

Actually... could you elaborate on this more and show me where you're getting this adjusted formula from?

ffxiclopedia, where you saw your formula, but hit the talk button.


I'm no algebra wiz... but I did my math like this:

417 - 375 - 85 = -43 (But I'm assuming for a bottom of 0) which devided by 3 is obviously still 0

Then I add in 48.

With the Feet giving an additional -5 seconds I get 43.

With the new merit (assuming it's for recast time and also assuming it's calculated before any other factors) I get (48 - 12) - 5 for 29... same as you.

I didn't add in any merits.
-43 exists. divide -43 by 3, = 14.33 (14)
48 (the starting recast time for spirit spells) - 14 = 34 seconds. -5 for smn spats =29


The wording makes it pretty clear to me that it's talking about Casting Time for Summoning Magic Spells (Avatars and Spirits), aka the time it takes for us to summon Avatars and Spirits.

I'm wondering if it's fast cast for the spirits. ie. instead of flare taking 19 seconds to cast, it takes 14.8 seconds to cast, making it get 1-2 extra melee rounds in, and less chance of being interrupted.
Slightly useful, if you're into that sort of thing.

[Malamasala]

The wording makes it pretty clear to me that it's talking about Casting Time for Summoning Magic Spells (Avatars and Spirits), aka the time it takes for us to summon Avatars and Spirits.

The best part is that they somehow think this is something we requested from them. You are looking at investing 5 merits to shorten the recast by 2 seconds. And that is assume you do not wear haste or cast haste on yourself. The gain would be less if so.

Please Camate. Show us that FFXI isn't run by monkeys. Inform them that we want delay between Fire V and Fire V from spirits to be shorter. That is what we want, not some kind of useless version of fast cast.

[Badieh]

Inform them that we want delay between Fire V and Fire V from spirits to be shorter. That is what we want, not some kind of useless version of fast cast.

That would be better, for the merits to add Fast Cast to the Spirits' Spells as appose Fast Cast to summoning the Spirit.

[Yygdrasil]

I didn't add in any merits.
-43 exists. divide -43 by 3, = 14.33 (14)
48 (the starting recast time for spirit spells) - 14 = 34 seconds. -5 for smn spats =29

Ahh.... so negative matters. Interesting. So 48 - 12 (for merits) - 14 (for the negative value) - 5 (for feet) = 17 (assuming there's no floor.... but there must be a floor)

Got it.

[Babekeke]

Ahh.... so negative matters. Interesting. So 48 - 12 (for merits) - 14 (for the negative value) - 5 (for feet) = 17 (assuming there's no floor.... but there must be a floor)

Got it.

IF, and only IF, the merits are on the recast, the % would most likely be added after the -gear, so... 29s before merits, 29 - 25%(~6 seconds) =23 after.

[Yygdrasil]

The best part is that they somehow think this is something we requested from them. You are looking at investing 5 merits to shorten the recast by 2 seconds. And that is assume you do not wear haste or cast haste on yourself. The gain would be less if so.

Please Camate. Show us that FFXI isn't run by monkeys. Inform them that we want delay between Fire V and Fire V from spirits to be shorter. That is what we want, not some kind of useless version of fast cast.

I'll respond on behalf of the Development Team for you. It'll save Camate some effort in wording it politely anyway.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/10/104907/2154066-imposibru.jpg

[Yygdrasil]

IF, and only IF, the merits are on the recast, the % would most likely be added after the -gear, so... 29s before merits, 29 - 25%(~6 seconds) =23 after.

Very true. Still... 23 is pretty nice. I can't complain. Here, come take a seat with me on the "waiting bench". I just hope it winds up being what we're hoping.

[Imakun]

The best part is that they somehow think this is something we requested from them. You are looking at investing 5 merits to shorten the recast by 2 seconds. And that is assume you do not wear haste or cast haste on yourself. The gain would be less if so.

Please Camate. Show us that FFXI isn't run by monkeys. Inform them that we want delay between Fire V and Fire V from spirits to be shorter. That is what we want, not some kind of useless version of fast cast.

I've honestly given up on Spirits and I'd rather have the Dev. Team focus on Avatars. I'm fine with them being mana batteries and ohsh*tsaveme tools. Spirits are a SMN's Sublimation, which also happens to be able to cast random spells at times which you really can't control in any way.
I'm sure most of us SMN would never waste merits on Spirits Spellcasting Time because we have NO WAY of influencing their AI.
Should their casting be faster? Hell yea. Should this happen through merits? Hell no. Unless it somehow includes Avatars' attacking speed for whatever reason.

[Malamasala]

Very true. Still... 23 is pretty nice. I can't complain. Here, come take a seat with me on the "waiting bench". I just hope it winds up being what we're hoping.

Notice that it is also 23 seconds AFTER ASSAULT. Even if you sit 5 hours waiting, then assault, it resets to max time and you have to wait another 23 seconds until a spell is cast.

Do you know how fast anything in Abyssea dies? Which means you can only realistically use spirits on NMs. But NMs spam AOE damage and silence and stun and paralyze, which will negate your spirit.

You need to reduce casting time to 5-10 seconds for it to be viable with the current Assault system. At which point you got chainspell effect if you spam assault. You just can't solve it with lowering the casting delay between spells. You need to solve the bug, and if you do that, then spirits are even useful today.

[Yygdrasil]

we have NO WAY of influencing their AI..

Yes and No.

We can't directly effect their AI, you're right. In that respect, we're one tier short of PUP. However... unlike Automatons, our AI makes increasingly better decisions in direct proportion to our Summoning Magic Skill.

In other words:
As a 99SMN with 156 skill... your Fire Spirit might choose to cast Burn > Burn > Burn > Fire V

or...

As a 99SMN with 450 skill... your Fire Spirit is more likely to cast Burn > Fire V > Burn > Fire V

If you want a smarter Spirit, go skill up.

[Imakun]

It's still not enough for me to use them instead of a perfectly controllable Avatar which not only I can control but I can also influence in regards of Magic/Attack, Accuracy, and the likes.
You could say that, with this new change, you can rely on spirits when you're low on MP since their casting is free. But how often does that happen? And when do we really want a mob to be DoT'ed since they happen to love DoTs? We can't prevent them from casting what they want, a slightly better AI doesn't matter when it's still "more likely".

Either give us a chance to control them, even via general commands like "Attack" and "Defend" (for Light Spirit), or forget about them and fix our other issues.

[Draylo]

Why give elementals tier5 only and not avatars lol

[Badieh]

Why give elementals tier5 only and not avatars lol

Oy.... that is a whole other thread discussion....

[Annalise]

Sweet. Fenrir's bloodpact went from awful... to still awful!

The only thing I get out of this is Shell V (as protect V is laughable over IV).

Thank you for Shell V, SE.

I'm sorry you wasted time coding the other stuff, SE.

[Rakshaka]

I remember one time when spirits were actually useful. You could use them to solo Golden-Tongued Culberry at 75. Not that Ugg pendant is worth much nowadays.

[Babekeke]

After thinking about this for a bit, I figure what we needed was:

Spirit perp merit to have changed to elemental siphon recast time -10 seconds. This would make spirits almost 20% more useful than they are now ;D

A JA for spirits similar to DRGs have. 1 min recast. Causes Spirits to cast a spell immediately upon use. This would allow us to use BP rage > cast spirit, assault > wait out 20 seconds, spirit casts a spell, hit JA, spirit casts another spell. Call out avatar and BP rage again.

This one might actually already exist but I don't think so... Make spirits get MAB based on their TP. TP gets used up when spell is cast (if that's possible to code?). Then the JA will be balanced as the 2nd spell (from JA) will be weaker due to no TP.

[Dallas]

Yggdrasil, your formula is wrong.

48 + (417-375)/3 = 62 seconds.

[Badieh]

After thinking about this for a bit, I figure what we needed was:

Spirit perp merit to have changed to elemental siphon recast time -10 seconds. This would make spirits almost 20% more useful than they are now ;D

A JA for spirits similar to DRGs have. 1 min recast. Causes Spirits to cast a spell immediately upon use. This would allow us to use BP rage > cast spirit, assault > wait out 20 seconds, spirit casts a spell, hit JA, spirit casts another spell. Call out avatar and BP rage again.

This one might actually already exist but I don't think so... Make spirits get MAB based on their TP. TP gets used up when spell is cast (if that's possible to code?). Then the JA will be balanced as the 2nd spell (from JA) will be weaker due to no TP.

I actually think Avatars should have a 1 minute ability that casts a random spell from it's elemental affinity.

[Yygdrasil]

Yygdrasil, your formula is wrong.

48 + (417-375)/3 = 62 seconds.

No it's not. Because I calculated in the Summoning Magic Skill granted by my gear into the equasion. I get +85 Skill from gear.

48+ (417-375-85)/3 = 48-14.3333 = ~34 (-5 from Feet = 29 seconds)

Also: lrn2spellmynameright.

[Dallas]

The wording makes it pretty clear to me that it's talking about Casting Time for Summoning Magic Spells (Avatars and Spirits), aka the time it takes for us to summon Avatars and Spirits.

It has been chopped up pretty good to mean player fast cast. That is only useful for kiting.

[Dallas]

No it's not. Because I calculated in the Summoning Magic Skill granted by my gear into the equasion. I get +85 Skill from gear.

48+ (417-375-85)/3 = 48-14.3333 = ~34 (-5 from Feet = 29 seconds)

Also: lrn2spellmynameright.
Re: also. I post from a phone, your name disappears.

I also missed the smackdown you recieved on page 2 as my browser showed one page (I probably left my phone on this page all night). Your first post is still wrong.

[Yygdrasil]

Re: also. I post from a phone, your name disappears.

I also missed the smackdown you recieved on page 2 as my browser showed one page (I probably left my phone on this page all night). Your first post is still wrong.

Whoop-de-do. I didn't go back to change my original post on this thread. If you continue to read along with the progression of the thread, you'll find that doesn't matter. Congratulations for incorrectly correcting me after I already had a nice civil conversation with the guy who originally corrected me. Next time, try reading all 4 pages of a thread before trying to flaunt your "I knows it" around and make yourself look like a jackass.

[Yygdrasil]

Also: Either your phone sucks or you're doin' it wrong if you can't click back to page 1.

[Malamasala]

I remember one time when spirits were actually useful. You could use them to solo Golden-Tongued Culberry at 75. Not that Ugg pendant is worth much nowadays.

I soloed a bastok mission with a spirit.

Soloing with spirits are actually half-viable though, since it bugs out the Assault bug and lets spirits cast in half time because they are running on a defensive timer instead of offensive timer.

If you actually have the gear, soloing with spirits should have them cast in about 20 seconds. Might be even shorter. It is just sad that to use spirits in a party you have to sub WAR and provoke the mob when it is pulled, and then you need to shout "Heal me!" since you don't have tanking gear, but spirit gear.

[Babekeke]

It is just sad that to use spirits in a party you have to sub WAR and provoke the mob when it is pulled, and then you need to shout "Heal me!" since you don't have tanking gear, but spirit gear.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but can't you pull with dia if subbing whm or rdm, or aspir if subbing sch?

[Dallas]

Also: Either your phone sucks or you're doin' it wrong if you can't click back to page 1.

Oh, so you are one of those people. Guess what, you are Iggy now. It's better that way.

[Yygdrasil]

That's cool with me. Adjusting my name doesn't change you being stupid. Enjoy being stupid, stupid.

[tyreafus]

The only useful thing I see on here is the -% to spellcasting time. I assume this is basically a fast cast for summoning avatars(elementals already summon near-instantly, so who cares?). I can see this as being useful for soloing NMs maybe. But the spirit stuff... Spirits will never be useful for anything besides Elemental Siphon and casting quickly to grab hate if your avatar dies and you're near the mob you're fighting, unless they give us some amount of control over them. Period. They can't tank(squishy, even with DG atma), and the damage that they can potentially do is too unpredictable to be useful.

Personally the -Perp cost doesn't even affect me because I have all the elemental staves at +4(besides light, and working on that) Will the staves' -perp cost still affect elementals?

Where are they trying to take this? Granted, it makes sense that spirits should cost less, not more, than avatars in perp. But is this really all they can do here? What happened to the plans to add Cait Sith and Diabolos as avatars? Have they discarded these plans? I thought these new adjustments were going to be fun, new things; not boring tweaks.

[Yygdrasil]

I have all the elemental staves at +4(besides light, and working on that)

Sweet Jesus dude... play much? I mean grats... but damn.

[Dallas]

LOL, the abused on page 2 becomes the wannabe abuser on page 4. Sorry.
You are not who you think you are.

[tyreafus]

Sweet Jesus dude... play much? I mean grats... but damn.
...


[Kannagi: O] / [Armageddon: O] / [Nirvana: Working on it...]

Look who's talking...

Anyway, getting them all actually only took me about two months. I was burned out on abyssea and needed something I could do for a little bit at a time without committing time to other people. I left the light staff out because when I started them I didn't know about the -delay thing and I was already break even with carby mitts. I'm working on it now casually on and off for the -BP delay on Carby and for if/when they release Cait Sith(in 2016, judging from the pace they're moving).

Edit: I should also mention that I dual-boxed with my nin on my other account, so the avatar-killshot portions went much faster than for most working on their own.

[Yygdrasil]

lol, thanks for noticing. I picked the 2 I wanted and went for them. As for Nirvana, that's going to take me a much longer time to complete... and the goin' is slow.

I can't imagine going through as much crap as you did to get those staves. I finished the +4 Garuda one and threw a party. The only other one I would consider is the Ice staff, but still... I normally full-time Garuda. Shiva is used a lot less.

[tyreafus]

Actually, that brings up perhaps what's most broken about summoner right now: The avatar with the best damage potential also has the best all around buffs, and can self heal. Wtf. I'm tired of seeing every smn with Garuda out at all times, because of the fact that the only useful avatar, except for when you're in "bard-mode" in a party, is Garuda. Ramuh can be nice for Thunderspark if you need to tank multiple mobs, and they all have some utility for NMs that use only one element for their MA attacks, but come on.

Each avatar should have a reasonable level of merits and flaws, without one being vastly more useful than all the others.

[Yygdrasil]

I agree. I'd love to have a reason to use some more of my avatars. On occasion I've used Leviathan because of his self healing. You know... to spice things up... but that's about it.

In fact... I'm going to play with just Leviathan for a little while and see how I like it.

[Saiken253]

Leviathan is pretty good tbh. He heals himself(and removes several status effects, all -na's i believe) and does decent damage. However, because his lvl70 BP only hits once it has a lower chance of criting and doesn't accumulate as much TP as Pred claws or Rush or Chaotic, which can be used to fuel the merit BPs. He's decent and reliable, just not as good as Garuda, he's kinda more defensive imo.

[Arcon]

Leviathan is pretty good tbh. He heals himself(and removes several status effects, all -na's i believe) and does decent damage. However, because his lvl70 BP only hits once it has a lower chance of criting and doesn't accumulate as much TP as Pred claws or Rush or Chaotic, which can be used to fuel the merit BPs. He's decent and reliable, just not as good as Garuda, he's kinda more defensive imo.

Not that it matters much these days, but Leviathan also used to be king when Accuracy was an issue (because of Spinning Dive being single hit). I tore mobs up with 2k BPs in Abyssea before it was cool (Scars release).

Also, none of the trial staves are needed at all. They're just inventory-savers (ironically). Both perpetuation cost and BP delay can be capped through other means. I'm just working on them so I can throw out some other items and switch more perpetuation cost gear with Refresh gear and BP delay gear with Enmity gear, but both of those measures are just for perfectionists who have nothing else to improve on SMN.

[Malamasala]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but can't you pull with dia if subbing whm or rdm, or aspir if subbing sch?

You can do that if you are the puller. The problem is that since your spirit will start casting soon after pull, you can only pull within a radius of about '15 from the party. Would work in roaming parties I guess.

Another issue is links, since you have very poor solutions to handle that to avoid death. (Another player hitting the mob, or sch sub sleep). In most cases you'd rather want to be SMN/NIN and pull with ninjutsu, but a SMN/NIN using spirits seem very limited to what they can offer the party.

[Babekeke]

but a SMN/(anything) using spirits seem very limited to what they can offer the party.

FTFY ;p
1234

[Jerbob]

Out of curiosity I played around a bit with spirits and summoning magic skill to see where any caps might be, assuming this won't change with the update. The results were kind of interesting so I thought I'd share them. Lacking any cheating tools as I do all of my timing results are based on looking at a clock, so there's a +/- of a second or two for each individual data point, but considering that there's no "spread" or randomness in spirit spellcasting timers (that we know of), in contrast to the usual haste/melee damage/etc tests, I thought that would probably be okay.

Things controlled:
- Day of the week (all neutral with respect to the spirit)
- Weather (tested in Horutoto Ruins so none)

Things not controlled:
- Any gear not specifically relating to spirits (elemental staves, BP delay reduction etc. Assuming these have no effect.)
- Spirit used (moved from DarkSpirit to IceSpirit part way through test as the day approached Darkday. I've never seen any evidence to suggest that different spirits work differently with recast time.)
- Mob targetted (swapped between beetles/bats in Horutoto as they repopped)

Things altered/tested:
- Summoning magic skill
- Use or otherwise of Summoner's Spats (NQ version)

Relevant attributes:
- I have full summoning magic merits (+16 skill) and capped skill.

Technique:
Summon Spirit and use Assault, write down time. Wait until spell starts to cast, write down time immediately. Repeat, ensuring to use Assault prior to each new data point.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Test 1: DarkSpirit, 524 skill
Times: 34, 30, 32, 31, 35, 30, 32
Average: 32 seconds
Notes: This was longer than I thought it would be.
Conclusion: The formula suggests ~12 seconds, so there is obviously either a cap in place or the formula is very wrong.

Test 2: Darkspirit, 518 skill, Summoner's Spats
Times: 26, 26, 26, 26, 26
Average: 26 seconds
Notes: Yes, the skill has been reduced by 6 due to the swap to the spats, but testing for the accepted effect of -5 secs would still be obvious even with this change. A 6 second recast reduction makes sense considering how wobbly my data is.
Conclusion: Summoner's Spats still have an effect even at high levels of skill.

Test 3: IceSpirit, 500 skill
Times: 36, 31, 31, 31, 31
Average: 32 seconds
Notes: I wanted to see if only a small change had any major effect on recast time. The formula suggests a change of +8 seconds compared to 524 skill.
Conclusion: Adding 24 skill is fairly insignificant or has no effect at skill levels at or above 500.

Test 4: IceSpirit, 500 skill, Summoner's Spats
Times: 29, 26, 26, 26, 26
Average: 26.6 seconds
Notes: Remembered to make up the 6 skill this time!
Conclusion: No relevant change to the effect of Summoner's Spats. I will assume from now on that the -5 to recast is effective across the board.

Test 5: IceSpirit, 482 skill
Times: 33, 31, 31, 31, 30
Average: 32 seconds
Notes: Another small change in skill to see if there is any change, specifically under 500 skill in case that is (as I initially suspected) the cap. The forumula predicts ~26 seconds at this level.
Conclusion: Again, either 18 skill is not significant to recast changes or we are still above the proposed casting reduction skill cap. Given my potential inaccuracy, however, further tests are required.

Test 6: IceSpirit, 433 skill
Times: 41, 38, 38, 38
Average: 38.8 seconds
Notes: IceSpirit linked a beetle and died early, so only 4 results. 433 is my base skill level (I have full merits, 417+16=433). This is a change of -49 skill compared to my previous test. The formula predicts ~43 seconds at this level.
Conclusion: A definite increase in recast based on skill changes. If there is a cap, it is above 433 skill. Here, the formula predicts a higher recast value than I had, instead of a lower value as in the previous tests.

Test 7: IceSpirit, 467 skill
Times: 34, 32, 31, 32, 31
Average: 32 seconds
Notes: This is the skill cap at level 99 +50 skill (417+50=467). The formula predicts ~31 seconds at this level.
Conclusion: Averaging at around 32 seconds again, the same as 524 skill nearly 60 skill levels above. If there is a cap, it must be around this level or below.

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Final conclusions:

- At some point, increased summoning magic skill has either no effect on elemental spirit recast time, or a very small one that is concealed by my (admittedly potentially significant) inability to perfectly record times.
- Summoner's Spats definitely have a recast time reduction effect of -5 seconds, and this is not affected by any cap or reduction in the effect of skill level to any extent that I am capable of measuring.
- The only test where the formula approximately matched my results was Test 7, 467 skill, 50 above level 99 cap.

My speculation:
- There is probably a cap on the effect of summoning magic skill on elemental spirit recast time at around 50 skill points above level 99 skill cap. If there is not a cap, the effect of skill above this point is sufficiently insignificant to have an effect that is essentially the same.

Questions:
- Does the effect of skill over cap have no effect above 50 skill for everything? Does avatar accuracy not increase above this cap?
- Do Summoner's Spats +1/+2 have any increased reduction in recast?

Practical implications:
- I can't store my Summoner's Spats for +1 inventory space. :(
- I can macro more perpetuation cost reduction equipment in for my spirits! :)

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Once again, I realise that the possible errors in my results due to difficulties recording accurate times might be an issue. I did this for myself to get a general idea of how summoning magic skill was working, not to acquire exact figures for a new formula. However, I personally think the data is just about adequate to draw some reasonable conclusions, and possibly work as the basis for more experiments if anyone is feeling more thorough than I am.

Any thoughts?

[Papesse]

You need less than 50 skill points. 26 seconds cap (with AF2) is somewhere between 445 and 450.

[Jerbob]

Hmm, I feel a bit stupid having done all that for nothing. When/where was this information discovered? I did make a cursory glance around the usual places (i.e. typed a few phrases into Google) but came up with very little information.

Thanks for that, though. Makes things even easier for me!

[Babekeke]

You need less than 50 skill points. 26 seconds cap (with AF2) is somewhere between 445 and 450.

Working the formula backwards to get 31 seconds (cap before spats) would imply that the cap is hit with 468 skill at 99. (51 above cap)

48-31=17
17*3=51
417+51=468

back into the formula to prove it works...

48+(417-468)/3=
48-(51/3)=
48-17=31

[Dallas]

I believe the spirit timer function was the only useful formula derived pre 2006. Good luck finding it.

3 skill for 1 second off the 46 second base. 45 skill for 15 seconds. 5 seconds for the pants. I want to say 3 seconds each for day and weather. 5 seconds for Astral Flow.

The timer actually resets after the spell is cast, so your numbers will look like they are variable.

Edit: was the base 48 seconds? I thought that was proven to include casting time.

[Papesse]

I re-did my tests yesterday with fraps, I confirm that my spirit takes around 26.5 seconds (11 min on the vanadiel clock) with 448 summoning skill/AF2 after Assault but I didn't find the exact number of skill points needed. Btw, neither the correct day of the week nor Astral Flow seem to have an impact at this point.

[Dallas]

Well, to be fair, back in the day we paid dearly for any SMN magic.

[Summung]

Finaly no tier V spells??!! ;'(