PLD tanks Vs. MNK tanks *Ding* FIGHT!

[Wolfe]

With the introduction of Abyssea and HP atmas, PLD are by far one of the worst jobs for tanking now. Give me a MNK with a few HP atmas, put them over 3k HP with cruor buffs and guess what, that PLD looks like a little kid pretending to be a superhero.

Can we please do something about this? I used to love leveling my PLD, but as soon as Abyssea came out, MNK became the best job for tanking something. Even the best geared PLD I have seen could not hold their own against even a lolpinkMNK with the right atmas.

How many ways can a PLD draw hate? A few buffs from other jobs, full enmity merits (not the best choice if you ever plan on leveling other jobs that need less enmity). Provoke, which sadly does just about nothing anymore, and it is not even an ability that PLD know naturally!

Come on guys. Work with the PLD's here. How about a job ability that gives the old classic Japanese *tugs on an eye and sticks out the tongue for a raspberry*. Might be too comical, but if it worked, I'd spam the snot out of it whenever possible.

[DamonWolfe]

With the introduction of Abyssea and HP atmas, PLD are by far one of the worst jobs for tanking now. Give me a MNK with a few HP atmas, put them over 3k HP with cruor buffs and guess what, that PLD looks like a little kid pretending to be a superhero.

Can we please do something about this? I used to love leveling my PLD, but as soon as Abyssea came out, MNK became the best job for tanking something. Even the best geared PLD I have seen could not hold their own against even a lolpinkMNK with the right atmas.

How many ways can a PLD draw hate? A few buffs from other jobs, full enmity merits (not the best choice if you ever plan on leveling other jobs that need less enmity). Provoke, which sadly does just about nothing anymore, and it is not even an ability that PLD know naturally!

Come on guys. Work with the PLD's here. How about a job ability that gives the old classic Japanese *tugs on an eye and sticks out the tongue for a raspberry*. Might be too comical, but if it worked, I'd spam the snot out of it whenever possible.

What the main issue is that, The only way to make paladin a viable class is to upgrade it to a point that would be on par with DD classed jobs. And as i'd say most of the players would say "would make other jobs useless" or "Why do things to buff one job and make up to 6 others less useful."

I totally disagree with those pathways of understanding.

FFXI is a Major PvE game, and you can clearly look at the classes in the game and know out of 20, there are less than 10 that are the main use in the game overall. That being the case, there isn't a lot of job balance (like in games such as WoW) however that is fine, as the game isn't about balance among players (since this isn't a PvP heavy game.)

Make Paladin more useful, surely a welcome idea. would other DDs be less useful? Not at all.

Paladin becoming a DD type class (in general sense) would allow it come out from it's "useless" shell into something more playable. of course I do not think it should do damage at the levels of MNK, DRG, DRK or SAM. Since those are 2h weapon type classes (H2H is 2h in a odd way).

But sword is the second best 1h weapon in the game (only under Axe) and Paladins have a A+ rating on it, so why shouldn't they be able to do major damage with it? I started the PLD modifcation thread to give ideas of how to adjust paladin without having to do anything wild, at least for a start. Modifying abilities to make paladin stand out better, and to give them abilities that would be useful for them that other jobs have (IE. Counter for Pld) That idea isn't that wild as Dnc and Thf got their own DW traits to use.

[Cream_Soda]

How many ways can a PLD draw hate? A few buffs from other jobs, full enmity merits (not the best choice if you ever plan on leveling other jobs that need less enmity). Provoke, which sadly does just about nothing anymore, and it is not even an ability that PLD know naturally!

Come on guys. Work with the PLD's here. How about a job ability that gives the old classic Japanese *tugs on an eye and sticks out the tongue for a raspberry*. Might be too comical, but if it worked, I'd spam the snot out of it whenever possible.

So, let's say PLD gets all this stuff you want and can hold hate off of every job in the game, consistently. Then what?

As long as the mnk can still hold hate off the mage and not die, using the mnk to tank is going kill mobs faster than using the pld tank.

There's still no reason to use a pld.

Until a monk can't hold hate off a mage in a situation a pld can or a mob comes up that mnk can't survive against where a pld can, there's no reason to use a pld tank, regardless of whether or not they can generate more enmity than a monk.

[Skybrit]

I think the jobs should keep their original roles. Give the tank the ability to hold hate and take the damage as originally designed and free up the DDs to equip and upgrade to do max dmg as they were originally designed and the mobs die faster.
SkyMcCloud

[Wolfe]

There's still no reason to use a pld.

That is exactly the point I am trying to get across. There is no reason to use PLD anymore. The tank job is now useless.

[JagerForrester]

It's either SE needs to
-Bump up PLDs ability to attack on par with the DDs (might never happen)
-Up their life-expentancy against high level NMs (which then people will still favor shadow tanks)
-Nerf the shadow tanks (this is going to get flaaaamed)

If they make a normal monster unable to be shadow tanked, as if they can see right through shadows or Seigan tanking, it would breathe some life back into PLDs to tank again.

[Skybrit]

Yes, Pld defensive abilities need to go throught the ceiling. My point was that DDs should not be able to tank. The jobs have been taken outside of their original roles. Defensive ablilities of DDs need to be gimped.

[Mojo]

Gimping other jobs is never a good solution.

[Hoshi]

It's either SE needs to
-Bump up PLDs ability to attack on par with the DDs (might never happen)
-Up their life-expentancy against high level NMs (which then people will still favor shadow tanks)
-Nerf the shadow tanks (this is going to get flaaaamed)

If they make a normal monster unable to be shadow tanked, as if they can see right through shadows or Seigan tanking, it would breathe some life back into PLDs to tank again.

Shadows don't have much to do with tanking any more... it's more about the counter.

[Martel]

Well.. If SE wanted to be reeeeallly obnoxious, they could implement all the new NMs with Ironclad melee mechanics. AoE, shadow wiping, classified as WS(and thus uncounterable), melee hits. Hmmm, I'd laugh so hard if they actually did that.

But really, for abyssea content at least, even that would matter. Unless they hit incredibly hard(along with some nasty multi-hit) you'd just bring a bit of extra healing, and keep on with the High HP DD tanks.

[Juilan]

I think the price of shihei on siren has nerfed (lol thrown) shadow tanking... I don't like the idea of paying 90k/12 bags for something I can go through like hmm [insert analog here] so I started blood tanking on pld/war mnk/war and war/sam lol

[JagerForrester]

Shadows don't have much to do with tanking any more... it's more about the counter.

/uncovers head in relinquishment.
Crap. My 2yr disappearance is showing. Okay, ...nerf counter tanks...?
/covers head


Well.. If SE wanted to be reeeeallly obnoxious, they could implement all the new NMs with Ironclad melee mechanics. AoE, shadow wiping, classified as WS(and thus uncounterable), melee hits. Hmmm, I'd laugh so hard if they actually did that.

/points at Martel
What he said.

[Wolfe]

How about this, give PLD an ability (low level and increase effect as they level up) that allows them to constantly gain enmity, just from being engaged with a mob? Then you can still use things like the SCH spell and other such things that slow or lessen enmity drain and help to beef up PLD again, taking them off the bench and putting them back into the game!

Nah, when I start making logical sense like this, it means the job is doomed forever. SE will never listen to my ideas. Want proof? Just give it time, SE will prove me right.

[Jettauk]

How about this, give PLD an ability (low level and increase effect as they level up) that allows them to constantly gain enmity, just from being engaged with a mob? Then you can still use things like the SCH spell and other such things that slow or lessen enmity drain and help to beef up PLD again, taking them off the bench and putting them back into the game!

Nah, when I start making logical sense like this, it means the job is doomed forever. SE will never listen to my ideas. Want proof? Just give it time, SE will prove me right.

Except this doesn't make logical sense. The issue with pld is not just that they can't keep hate but that a mnk deals dmg while tanking. Even if pld was given that ability as you suggest, why would any group bring pld along when a mnk can also do it and kill the mob faster?

[Loir]

Solution, make pld deal more dmg than other classes, ramp up reprisal dmg to not only deal significantly more dmg but also allow it to generate immense amounts of hate, ochain and we can remove all other classes from the game at this point.

[Aeonk]

At this point I think people are giving MNK's wayyyy too much credit. On paper when the MNK's you describe are wearing perfect gear sets, rocking Empyrean H2H's, and have first hand experience on tanking just about anything... those are the types of MNK's that are hard to beat (at tanking).

But alas... not every MNK is a black belt toting bad ass. Like any job that is or has been a bandwagon job, there's plenty of players out there that do not fit this description. A good PLD will out tank a mediocre MNK any day of the week. Probably out damage too.

If you're good at your job, whether it be PLD, MNK or even PUP, you know how to make yourself useful and generally will have no problem justifying your spot in a party.

[Cream_Soda]

But alas... not every MNK is a black belt toting bad ass. Like any job that is or has been a bandwagon job, there's plenty of players out there that do not fit this description. A good PLD will out tank a mediocre MNK any day of the week. Probably out damage too.

Doesn't work like that. You can't compare average to poor monks to good paladins. You compare average to poor monks to average to poor paladins. They're all terrible.

That out of the way, I do see what you're trying to say, because I am picky w/ my monks. There's only a handful of monks on my server that I'd bring to anything.

[Nepharite]

Adding all these abilities and such is just silly. Unless they make pld ridiculously powerful, mnk will win out.

Now if they change the way enmity is gained through damage done, then it would destroy mnk tanking.

[Greatguardian]

Since when does PLD have issues holding hate anyways? Holding hate is the least of any melee's concerns, all you need to do is, what, 6k-8k damage to cap your Enmity? That's 1-2 Smites or 1-2 Chant du Cynges. Both jobs can cap hate on anything in 30 seconds, the issue becomes that a CdC PLD is doing less overall damage than a Victory Smite Mnk. Adding Enmity tools and Defensive buffs won't do anything at all to change that.

[Wolfe]

At this point I think people are giving MNK's wayyyy too much credit. On paper when the MNK's you describe are wearing perfect gear sets, rocking Empyrean H2H's, and have first hand experience on tanking just about anything... those are the types of MNK's that are hard to beat (at tanking).

But alas... not every MNK is a black belt toting bad ass. Like any job that is or has been a bandwagon job, there's plenty of players out there that do not fit this description. A good PLD will out tank a mediocre MNK any day of the week. Probably out damage too.

If you're good at your job, whether it be PLD, MNK or even PUP, you know how to make yourself useful and generally will have no problem justifying your spot in a party.

Not true, my buddy is a brown belt MNK, with full Emp+1 and Destroyers. Not that Godly, but he easily out tanks PLD without even trying, and the PLD in question had full Emp+2, Emp weap fully upgraded (I forget the name) and had some other really nice gear swaps while he was playing. My buddy made him look like a joke without trying and we both felt pretty bad for the PLD.

[Horis]

At this point I think people are giving MNK's wayyyy too much credit.
This is so true. I have played with tons of PLD tanks and MNK tanks of varying strengths. In my opinion, PLD is still the better tank overall.
While MNKs can tank and deal good DMG, they take way too much DMG and become a massive MP sponge. Giving /NIN to MNKs still doesn't let you avoid all attacks. High HP and -PDT sets are nice, but MNKs still aren't self sufficient enough for that to matter. Fighting mobs with high attack speed, ACC, DMG, and/or multi-hit, MNKs become a burden on the mages. Some people may argue that MNKs have the Chakra ability, but even with a great VIT build, and Chakra Recast and Invigorate merits, Chakra still is only usable every 4min 10sec and only heals a few hundred HP and up to 400 regen. All that can be taken away in the matter of seconds and as I said, once every 4min 10sec at best. Also people may argue that in abyssea, mages have massive MP pools and tons of refresh. This may be true, but its not even close to infinate, especially when they have to spam heal Cure V/VI.
As for PLD, they can take hits much better then MNKs and keep themselves alive for a long time without spam cures. As such, mages can save their MP for buffs/debuffs/nukes/etc. Sure PLD isn't even in the same league as MNK in terms of DMG output, PLDs can still deal a moderate amount of DMG. Add that to the saved MP and time, otherwise wasted on spam cures for a MNK tank, now able to be used on nukes, it can easily make the fight go just as quick, if not quicker, while going much more smoothly with less risk of failure.
If given the choice, I choose a PLD tank over MNK tank anyday even if the PLD's gear is average and the MNK's is well above average. The only thing that may be an issue is enmity, which even MNK tanks have that problem sometimes. If the PLD actually puts some effort into tanking, he/she can overcome the issue.
It would be nice though if SE adds some new enmity stuff for PLD. One thing that would be nice is if they made the enmity caps for PLD higher then the other jobs. Also, SE should give PLD an ability equivalent to Provoke.
All-in-all, in my opinion, if you have a PLD tank any mob in the game, then did it a second time on the same mob, with the same allies, same day of the week, same weather, etc., but with a MNK instead of PLD, the fight with the PLD tank will be better atleast 95% of the time. Anyway, I do believe completely that PLD is a better tank then MNK, I still think MNK is the second best tank. "What about NIN?" you might ask. Well I absolutely HATE NIN tanks and I would sooner take a DRK/WAR with souleater, last resort, and berserk up 100% of the time to tank a lvl99 HNM with a lvl10 Galka PLD with a 0 healing skill, and -50MND as the only healer, then willingly take a lvl99 NIN with me to fight something even as easy as a Tiny Mandragora.
...Sorry about that, but as you can see, I really hate NIN...
Back on topic, people are saying recently that PLD isn't even worth having anymore, but I strongly disagree. Even though PLD isn't as great as it used to be, in comparison to other jobs, it is still the best tank out there.

[Greatguardian]

A good MNK wouldn't be subbing Ninja anyways so I don't see how the comparison is at all relevant. Mnk/War with RR/GH/Apoc and Af2-enhanced Counterstance is looking at about a 70% counter rate. Taking a minimum 5% evade rate and an acc cap of 95% into account, only 30% of all attacks will even land on a Mnk. That's the equivalent of tanking in -70% PDT, and actually reduces more damage than any shield in the game that isn't Ochain.

With 4k~ HP, any healer with half a brain cell can keep a Mnk alive even if one of those 30% of total hits scrapes through. Spam curing certainly isn't required.

Edit: That said, any healer with half a brain cell can keep a Pld alive too. There really isn't any difference at all except for the fact that Victory Smite does more damage than Chant du Cynge, Monk has better TP phase damage, and significantly more Offensive JAs/Traits.

[Aeonk]

@ Wolfe: I could go with the "pics or didn't happen" card, but I'd rather just make your point moot. If by out tank you mean he pulled hate... no shit. Any/every DD on the list is going to be at the hate cap by the end of the fight. If they're not, they have some serious re-evaluating to do. I don't expect any PLD (not even myself) to hold hate 100% of the time. With the low hate cap and multitude of hate erase moves, it is simply not possible. Cotanking is more than acceptable, and a PLD dealing good dmg is never a waste (provided they know how.)

@Greatguardian:
I've seen said "good MNK" try a WAR sub throughout 90% of our lowman endeavors. He can tank Chloris and Glavoid and such with ease, which is nice. But when it comes to rougher things like Apademak or Pantokrator... he got rolled. Apademak's Enstun only needs to proc once before the MNK is nearly perma-stunned and getting his face torn off. Add Fulmination from the TP feed by not having shadows/counter to save you... and someone's gonna have to brew it cause the MNK's getting raped. Maybe it was bad luck. Either way, I don't like luck being a factor in a win or a wipe.

[Cream_Soda]

There are a few mobs where /nin is relevant, but 95% of the time, /war is going to be more than fine. And even then, mnk/nin is going to be perfectly tanking something like Apademak.

[Greatguardian]

There are a few mobs where /nin is relevant, but 95% of the time, /war is going to be more than fine. And even then, mnk/nin is going to be perfectly tanking something like Apademak.

This ^. Also, having a solid WHM is important no matter who is tanking. Between my Mnk and my buddy's awesomely quick WHM, I've never had any sort of issues tanking, well, anything on Mnk/War. Mnk/Nin certainly does make a few fights less of a hassle (e.g. Alfard), but aside from those fights /War is king. If Apademak's Enstun is rocking a Mnk, is the Mnk not switching to PDT gear when stunned? Is the WHM just asleep? What's up there? It has nothing to do with luck.

[Shakuzen]

It does indeed seem that PLD has become the new gimp job in the game... at least, in public opinion.
Similarly to PUP and DRG, people have simply become too lazy to consort with the complexity that is Paladin.
"Why bother putting all of that strain on mages and DDs to think about the benefits and/or consequences of their actions in regards to the success of a Paladin tank when we can just get a high HP, hard hitting job to pummel whatever it is we are killing and just cure bomb it?" Seems to be the public opinion, at least on Asura. However, Paladin can still tank most monsters that Monk can as long as the party knows what they are doing. Sure it takes a lot more effort, but in the end Paladin can tank Iratham, Shinryu, Rani, etc just as well as MNK. On the other hand, it takes an awful lot more effort to get the necessary equipment and skills to tank as a Paladin than it does Monk. An extremely simple solution:
Boost Paladin's maximum HP to almost equal Monk's. Boost the damage dealt by Swords slightly
I believe that this would result in Paladins being a slightly more defence capable alternative to Monks, but that they still deal significantly less damage.

[Neisan_Quetz]

What's the benefit of bringing a crutch job again? Why would I want a tank that deals less damage when I can bring one that deals more and not be in danger of dying?

[Renromix]

PLD deal less dmg you get more hit then mob do more nasty tp move
MNK deal more dmg less hit from mob because of counter plus subtleblow less nasty tp move
but when fighting mage mob maybe PLD is the best to tank (pld/blm/whm or rdm) set up maybe?

[Neisan_Quetz]

Mnk can cap MDT and still keep capped haste, or drop a few pieces if no Avalon and still cap MDT, what is the issue with magic casting mobs again?

[Renromix]

no issue at all just saying possibility for pld but i guess not

[Dale]

With the introduction of Abyssea and HP atmas, PLD are by far one of the worst jobs for tanking now. Give me a MNK with a few HP atmas, put them over 3k HP with cruor buffs and guess what, that PLD looks like a little kid pretending to be a superhero.

Can we please do something about this? I used to love leveling my PLD, but as soon as Abyssea came out, MNK became the best job for tanking something. Even the best geared PLD I have seen could not hold their own against even a lolpinkMNK with the right atmas.

How many ways can a PLD draw hate? A few buffs from other jobs, full enmity merits (not the best choice if you ever plan on leveling other jobs that need less enmity). Provoke, which sadly does just about nothing anymore, and it is not even an ability that PLD know naturally!

Come on guys. Work with the PLD's here. How about a job ability that gives the old classic Japanese *tugs on an eye and sticks out the tongue for a raspberry*. Might be too comical, but if it worked, I'd spam the snot out of it whenever possible.

Monks were meant to be tanks also.

Paladins can heal themselves effectively, a monk can't. That's an advantage a lot of paladins don't fully appreciate.

[Greatguardian]

Paladins can heal themselves effectively, a monk can't.

Yes they can.

[Dale]

Yes they can.

Elaborate please.

Cause i hope you aren't comparing chakkra to a paladin's heals

[Martel]

/DNC I assume? Not that you'd really want to do that except during solo. But, it is effective healing. Just wrecks your DD output.

[Dale]

/DNC I assume? Not that you'd really want to do that except during solo. But, it is effective healing. Just wrecks your DD output.

I don't know, maybe that's what he meant. I've never played with a monk/dancer tank in my group, so I don't knwo if it's any good or not

[Zagen]

I don't know, maybe that's what he meant. I've never played with a monk/dancer tank in my group, so I don't knwo if it's any good or not
It works as long as the given NM doesn't have an Amnesia move or do constantly over say 400 damage a hit that can't be countered. Works for soloing a lot of NMs though.

An idea I had a while back when all this crap started was removing CE or VE from melee hits effectively kills the ability for a melee to hold hate but then it brings RDM even in its nerfed state to a tanking state to become on par/better than PLD. This would also allow melees to effectively go all out when there is a RDM or PLD as they will never pull hate unless the tank's CE or VE Enmity or both is reset.

Make a monster that can't be blink tanked + can't be countered + deals lots of damage that is greatly reduced by shield block only then it might make PLD useful on that 1 monster but even then I doubt it.

[Shakuzen]

Perhaps increasing the shield proc rate as well as HP and damage output.
Other than that, nasty TP moves shouldn't affect a PLD anywhere near as much as a MNK, especially with sentinel, assuming it's up.
I don't know what SE is going to do about it, if anything, but whatever they do I hope it's bloody good ><

[Martel]

Make a monster that can't be blink tanked + can't be countered + deals lots of damage that is greatly reduced by shield block only then it might make PLD useful on that 1 monster but even then I doubt it.

You pretty much just described any Ironclad. Cept the deals lot of dmg part, sure they can hit kinda hard, but its nothing a whm can't handle. Now.. maybe a raged Ironclad Triturator... watching one of those run around crushing people is pretty funny.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Can tank ironclads with Mnk or Nin though so pld still isn't even good at that...

[Crisco]

Adding all these abilities and such is just silly. Unless they make pld ridiculously powerful, mnk will win out.

Now if they change the way enmity is gained through damage done, then it would destroy mnk tanking.

Beat me to it. Seeing all this nonsense through the first couple pages, I didn't feel like going through the rest to see more. ^ This will be the one and only way you'll be able to bring PLD back. It was said over and over, "as long as MNK can hold hate off the mages" ... there's your answer. Make it so they can't, and PLD can.

I lost my first toon pre-abyssea before I took an 18month break; my PLD was one of the best. With my new toon, I wish I had a good reason to lvl PLD again. Let's get the ball rolling SE.

[TheDirtyHobo]

You guys are missing the forest for all the trees. There are 3 components of tanking, and most of you are only considering 2 of them.

1. Establishing/maintaining enmity
2. Mitigating damage
3. Dealing damage.

Contrary to what people seem to think, a good PLD would actually be the better than MNK at #1, if they were better at #2. Sword and Shield, with proper haste buffs/gear (BRD with march+1 hands, haste spell, 25% gear), will actually have shorter attack round intervals than a MNK (PLD: 227 * 0.36 =~82 delay, MNK: 531 * 0.2 = ~107 delay). This leads to it 'refreshing' its VE the more often, and theoretically keeping hate better. However, because having hate leads to the mob hitting you, you lose VE and then take a few hits to knock it back up. However, MNK mitigates damage better (counterstance, dodge), and if it does get hit, it also does much more damage to gain its VE back faster.

So, some people see this and leads to the next logical step, "what can we do to make PLD mitigate damage better?", which is a good start, however, very few continue on to the questions that come after. Say you decide to increase shield block damage reduction and block rate, and tweak it to a rate where PLD can sufficiently keep hate over a MNK. This is the point where a lot of people get off their train of thought and declare PLD as 'fixed', but what exactly does this accomplish? Everyone will still bring a MNK because a MNK will kill the mob twice as fast.

The problems PLD faces are not for any lack of job mechanics, but just being pointless in the current state of game content. With 99% of the game revolving around strictly-timed content like abyssea, salvage, dynamis, or einherjar, people don't have the luxury or taking twice as long to do something. Honestly, the only way I can foresee PLD becoming relevant again is by brute-forcing it through creating mobs with some sort of "only PLD has the slightest chance to survive this" attack/mode, but even then, people will very quickly find exploits and ways around it.

[Satyr]

So many of the suggestions in this thread are either completely counterproductive or too complex. The solution is not to nerf the other tanking jobs or create mobs that only PLDs can tank. The solution is to fix PLDs. To do this we must identify the key issues...which are:
How can PLD damage mitigation be brought in line with the other tanking jobs?
How can PLD damage be brought up to par in terms of being a favorable tank for kill speed as well as keeping high enmity?

I suggest the following very easy tweaks that would address both of these issues:

1. Bring PLD Parry skill up to A+.
-I do not understand why a job that is meant to be "the" tank does not have an A+ in defensive skills, and in the case of parry PLD gets a C rating. Parrying is something that (in the real world) is an integral part of swordsmanship. In FFXI PLD has an A+ in sword, thus using a little real world logic they should have an A+ in parry also. And like I said...they are "the" tank of FFXI...they should get A+ defensive skills. Parrying more helps keep enmity high as well as reduce damage taken.

2. With the above change, give PLD the Tactical Parry Trait.
-It just makes sense and fits the job.

3. Bring PLD Evasion up to higher than a C.
-I am not asking for an A+ here just improve it a bit. It is a defensive skill and thus should be higher for that simple fact.

4. Make Defense Bonus III and up significantly reduce the amount of enmity lost from taking damage.
-Something like Defense bonus III reduces enmity loss by 10%, IV by an additional 15%, and V by an additional 25%, thus a lv 90 PLD would have 50% less enmity lost from taking damage.

5. Give PLD the Fencer trait.
-The fact that PLD does not have fencer boggles me. It is a trait that seems as though should have been designed for PLDs and only for PLDs. They are the one job in the game that is known for being the "sword and board" job. PLDs should get Fencer I around lv 30-35 and by LV 90 should have 5 ranks of it.

6. Boost bast PLD HP up slightly to where they would have only a little less Max HP than MNKs.
-Any class designed to blood tank should not have less hp than a class that was originally designed to DD. That being said I am only asking for more base HP while allowing MNK to still have the highest.

All of these are fairly simple changes that could help to bring PLD up to par with NIN and MNK with regards to tanking.

[Khajit]

This fight was over before it even began. Even lolpup has become a better tank than PLD and not much is going to bring about any changes other than to make pld a good solo job.
You just have to look no further and see all the people with ochain still sing non pldjobs for tanking unless they want to solo.

[Cream_Soda]

3. Bring PLD Evasion up to higher than a C.
-I am not asking for an A+ here just improve it a bit. It is a defensive skill and thus should be higher for that simple fact.
They should get guard skill too while they're at it.

[Zagen]

Contrary to what people seem to think, a good PLD would actually be the better than MNK at #1, if they were better at #2. Sword and Shield, with proper haste buffs/gear (BRD with march+1 hands, haste spell, 25% gear), will actually have shorter attack round intervals than a MNK (PLD: 227 * 0.36 =~82 delay, MNK: 531 * 0.2 = ~107 delay).
Where are you getting these numbers? I can't figure out how you're getting these numbers. Joyeuse and Emp weapon have 224 delay dunno what 227 is supposed to be and MNK has 280 base delay at 82+. Also are you taking Kick Attacks into account? How about the fact 1 punch typically does more damage than a sword swing?

Also what is 0.36 and 0.2 supposed to be? I mean if that's "Haste" then you should be giving the same amount to both jobs since the goal is to replace MNK by doing a better job when they have the same buffs

[TheDirtyHobo]

Where are you getting these numbers? I can't figure out how you're getting these numbers. Joyeuse and Emp weapon have 224 delay dunno what 227 is supposed to be and MNK has 280 base delay at 82+. Also are you taking Kick Attacks into account? How about the fact 1 punch typically does more damage than a sword swing?

Also what is 0.36 and 0.2 supposed to be? I mean if that's "Haste" then you should be giving the same amount to both jobs since the goal is to replace MNK by doing a better job when they have the same buffs

The numbers were a little rushed and inaccurate, but their relationship still holds. 227 was a mistype, it should've been 224, you were correct. 0.36 is a PLD's delay after haste modifications, so the fixed delay is 224 * 0.36 = 81. MNK is more complicated to account the delay for, it would actually be (260+51) * 0.36 = 112, but MNKs delay reduction will cap at 80% reduction before martial arts is taken into account, which is (480+51) * 0.2 = 107. I had assumed 64 haste and native martial arts skill was enough to floor delay without calculating it, but I was wrong. No, I'm not taking into account kick attacks and the extra damage that h2h does over sword, as they only have an effect when your hate isn't capped. It takes about a minute at most for either job to do enough damage to cap their hate, so it's negligable either way, aside from a 10-15 second period where MNK is capped but PLD is still building.

What I'm saying is, if you discount the enmity lost from taking damage, a PLD has attack rounds more often, therefore refreshes their natural VE decay more often, and therefore would actually 'hold hate' over a MNK. Aside from red-staggered NMs (or blue-staggered, if it's an ironclad type), this situation does not happen.

[Zagen]

Ah ok that clears it up a good bit. I'd still have to disagree with "refreshes their natural VE decay more often". I agree that a PLD could slightly attack faster (disregarding Double Attacks/Kick Attacks/Etc. just accounting for single attack rounds) but it still doesn't account for the damage difference a MNK does over a PLD.

I'll be honest my PLD is probably a little gimp so numbers might be low for a good PLD but if I remember right I was doing about 130-140 on average vs. exp mobs in abyssea, my MNK does about the same with each fist. Rough rounding a PLD gets 4 rounds to the 3 rounds a MNK would get, so my PLD does 560 damage wile my MNK does 840. Dropping punches to 100 per hit would still beat my PLD's numbers with 600 vs. the 560.

[Greatguardian]

He's working under the idea that both jobs will be sitting at capped TE, and the damage each job deals per strike only needs to make up for the natural 60VE/second decay all players have. Even if a MNK does more damage per round, the excess Enmity-from-damage is irrelevant as long as TE remains capped. In this case, it's a solid assertion. PLD can "keep hate" off a MNK assuming that the PLD is not losing their CE to damage taken.

[Zagen]

He's working under the idea that both jobs will be sitting at capped TE, and the damage each job deals per strike only needs to make up for the natural 60VE/second decay all players have. Even if a MNK does more damage per round, the excess Enmity-from-damage is irrelevant as long as TE remains capped. In this case, it's a solid assertion. PLD can "keep hate" off a MNK assuming that the PLD is not losing their CE to damage taken.
Hmmm didn't think of that being the assumption well if that is the case then I also agree in that situation a PLD would be able to keep hate better than a MNK.

I was assuming both PLD and MNK would get hit for the same amount so they would have equal CE loss (excluding counter/shield procs)

Edit: Had a random thought... If shield procs had 0 hate loss like counter wouldn't that be a decent step into the right direction?

[Greatguardian]

It would definitely help. Though I'm not sure either job really needs much help in the Enmity department. Both jobs can keep hate off the backline, which is the end-goal of any tank class. Most other DD classes capable of capping hate should also be able to swap into proper defensive gear if need be as well.

Personally, my only issue with the PLD job is the fact that it lacks active offensive abilities. It may be a defensive-oriented class, but it doesn't really offer much more survivability over other DDs with equivalent defensive gear (PDT/MDT/etc). Heck, Counterstance reduces more damage than Shield procs (And caps at a higher proc rate). Giving it a boost to attack or Crit dmg/hit% would be a step in the right direction, as Chant du Cygne is a fairly powerful weaponskill in its own right.

[TheDirtyHobo]

Edit: Had a random thought... If shield procs had 0 hate loss like counter wouldn't that be a decent step into the right direction?

Again, missing the forest for all the trees, etc. PLD already keeps hate as well as MNK, maybe infinitesimally less so that the mob doesn't look at them, but they still should have capped hate and will hold it off the squishier jobs like a BLM or WHM. People who bitch and moan that PLD "can't get hate" on any longer than 2 minutes fight are PLDs that suck at doing their job because they turtle too hard.

The point is that PLD doesn't do as much damage, which leads to a longer fight (which, ironically, leads to even more total damage taken). The only way to 'fix' PLD is make them do more damage, which throws the whole offensively- vs. defensively-oriented job spectrum out of whack even further than it already is. PLD was probably the only job that I genuinely enjoyed levelling, and I hate to say it, but it's just dead in the water.

[Sonshou]

It seem to me that Paladin is already an expert in mitigating damage and surviing in battles. More pressing is that with right party setup, another job can tank as good but kill the monster faster. Which everyone don't like a long duration battle. But is Paladin no longer necessary?

I would like to think... the guy in the shinny armor should made to tank more easy, or say grant more ability to protect other party member instead of saving his own shinny bottom. Like drawing in a party member from distance and lower his or her enmity at the same time. This is something a Knight would do yea? the sence you would expect in fantasy novels yea?

Instead of boosting their damage capability, how about give them more chance to protect his crew? give them area ability to draw monsters' attention? or spells that prevent his party member from being victim of lesser foe while facing a strong enemy?

I like to see Paladins able to do more multitasking without changing target, and do it with ease. I think area ability and spells against foes will help Paladins do those job well, and make it a more unique job. Not only shielding pt from one monster, but many monsters.

Also.... in fantasy stories often that a dying knight can terrorize his enemy with single gaze, wouldn't that be extra cool if PLD lower than certain HP have chance to terrorize target?

[Shakuzen]

grant more ability to protect other party member instead of saving his own shinny bottom.

I like that. While reading that line I had a vague image of a Paladin sort of...assisting a MNK tank on an NM, using abilities that only he had that increases -others- defensive capabilities o.O
Random idea that most likely wouldn't have a dream of working but I wonder if it'd be possible to change PLD into more of an assisting role for the tank? (I don't know, i'm tired)

[Karinya_of_Carbuncle]

The only way to 'fix' PLD is make them do more damage, which throws the whole offensively- vs. defensively-oriented job spectrum out of whack even further than it already is.

Honestly, I think that damage has already been done by adding good mitigation to SAM and MNK... or arguably even further back with the addition of NIN. A lot of the MNK tank arguments are just rehashes of the old PLD vs. NIN: shadows are better defense than Defense, it's better to have a tank that is also a DD than a tank that is just a tank, tank hate is fine if you have DDs be careful/use Trick Attack but why bother when a DD+tank can hold hate without it, etc.

There hasn't been a meaningful offense vs. defense tradeoff in this game (in general, although some particular jobs have one) since RotZ, which was before US release. There are some jobs good at attacking, some jobs good at defending, and some jobs good at both (leaving aside other roles like healing, buffing, debuffing, and crowd control). The unique part of the problem today is not that PLD is good at neither, but that the entire role of being good at defense is now unnecessary and in many fights counterproductive. If all-out offense, shadows, and Cure V/VI can get you through a fight alive, why bother bringing a job that specializes in mitigation, or using the group tactics needed to allow them to take hits instead of someone more vulnerable?

"More vulnerable" doesn't actually mean "could die at any moment" anymore like it used to, and that's the real problem with tanking today, IMO. We need more mobs that will Deadly Hold (or whatever) a low-DEF job for 1.5x their maximum HP.

[Secure]

Getting Loot + Getting loot faster = What everyone wants.

When we follow this formula it's easy to see that no matter what any job can do, the jobs that do it faster and more efficiently are going to be the crowd favorites. Can other jobs still fulfill the first part of the above equation? Yes. Will most people want to sacrifice speed and efficiency in order to play a less favorable job? Probably not.

Point in case: most of these arguments are really efficiency vs capability. You can't keep arguing that your job CAN do something when people are trying to argue that the job is not EFFICIENT at doing something. All the talk of DPS, TP gain, enmity gain etc. is really moot because of the design of Abyssea. I've seen parties of pink MNKs/THFs successfully killing many NMs you'd think would just lay waste to them, but because of atma and a WHM with insane refresh they manage to muddle through and still get what they want out of it. Just about anything can be done with a NIN/WHM and most of the duo teams I see are a single NIN two boxing with a WHM mule that's wearing electrum rings or something. All the new content has opened the door for untold versatility from pretty much every job in FFXI and removed the funnel that was keeping people bottlenecked into a specific role. It's a double edged sword, you CAN do more, but you probably aren't the only one anymore and chances are someone has found a way to do it faster and better. My Aegis is crying like a baby but it's just going to drown in that mog satchel while my Verethragna MNK is destroying everything I cross paths with.

[Hoshi]

Would it break the game if enmity were given an overhaul and DD jobs had a harder time gaining it while defensive jobs (or JAs) made it easier to hold enmity? I don't dislike the current setup where we have our DD tank but I have noticed a lot of clamoring in the ranger forums to fix enmity and I think that's part of the issue here as well.

[Karbuncle]

PLD has nearly 0 Offensive Capabilities, to the point that while yeah, it can take a hit, But its so slow I'm pretty sure any job in the game can out DD a PLD. I mean all of them. Even SMN and WHM, BRD Could too. And You can't blame players for wanting to take the shortest point from A > B, using a PLD is a slower route, You'll kill slower, and it gives nearly no benefit.

You'd kill a mob faster Avatar-Kiting it than you would putting a PLD on it, and probably safer. Its that sad right now. The Situation of PLD has degraded and it remains untouched in the right areas.

What needs to be done is a massive over-haul of PLDs Offensive Capabilities. Give Shield Blocks a 25~% Chance of Countering, Counter Damage would be based on shield size. Something like.
*Size1: 50% of damage taken is countered
*Size2: 75% of Damage is Countered
*Size3: 100% of Damage is Countered
*Size4: 125%
*Size5: 150%
*Size6: 175%
(The Above damage i mean, Say the enemy is hitting you for 100 Damage unblocked, If you blocked and the counter-activated with a Size1 shield, You would (Like a normal counter) take 0 Damage, and the Enemy would take 50, With a Size6, You'd take 0 and Enemy would take 175 DMG from the counter, would add a small bit of Over-all damage.)

Could Give it Fencer at a stronger Level. Give it a Separate Trait "Fencer II" That, While doing what Fencer normally does, Also Increases Attack Speed (5%), and Attack (5%), and Critical hit Damage (5%) when wielding Sword/Shield.

Could Give us Shields with Offensive capabilities as well. Give us a Shield Like Sentinel Shield, instead of buttloads of MDB/Enmity shields, Give us one with Attack, DBL Attack, Haste, maybe one that increases Reprisal Effect (maybe Double Reprisals Damage?) etc, Something that would increase our DoT and not be a terribly outdated shield.

Could Allow Enlight to work on all hits of a Multi-hit Weapon, and degrade Slower (will have to do the same to DRKs). Could also give Enlight a Dbl.atk Effect. Degrading the same rate as the Additional Damage/accuracy bonus.

(This might be a repeat). Enhance Swift Blade, give Swift Blade a higher fTP/Mods, and make it a Critical hit Weaponskill, not more powerful than Chant-du-Sygne, But closer on the level of Eviscer/RR.

in terms of Enmity, Give PLD an Ability Similar to Accomplice/Collaborate, Except that have it Negate Enmity Generation for everyone in range for 30~ Seconds, Hell call it "Castle Walls" Job Trait, and it gives "Rampart" The effect to do the Above. During Rampart, No Enmity will be generated by players hit other than the PLD. won't help a lot, but a little.


I can't think of anything else, But the gist of what I'm saying is PLD needs help Damage wise, not Defensive Wise. It could be the most defensive job in the game, But if it kills really slow, 9/10 players will choose kill-speed over Safety-net. I'm not suggesting all the above ideas, But nearly suggesting them as to elaborate on what i mean as "More Offensive Abilities". It doesn't need to be so broken that other jobs are obsoleted, but given them the ability to at least keep up with DDs might make it more acceptable.

I can't make Promises >.>, But the way to fix PLD isn't Defensive, Its Offensive.

and that Nerfing other jobs is -not- the Solution. NERFING is never the Solution. It is only a problem.

[Aeonk]

PLD has nearly 0 Offensive Capabilities, to the point that while yeah, it can take a hit, But its so slow I'm pretty sure any job in the game can out DD a PLD. I mean all of them. Even SMN and WHM, BRD Could too. And You can't blame players for wanting to take the shortest point from A > B, using a PLD is a slower route, You'll kill slower, and it gives nearly no benefit.

You'd kill a mob faster Avatar-Kiting it than you would putting a PLD on it, and probably safer. Its that sad right now. The Situation of PLD has degraded and it remains untouched in the right areas.

What needs to be done is a massive over-haul of PLDs Offensive Capabilities. Give Shield Blocks a 25~% Chance of Countering, Counter Damage would be based on shield size. Something like.
*Size1: 50% of damage taken is countered
*Size2: 75% of Damage is Countered
*Size3: 100% of Damage is Countered
*Size4: 125%
*Size5: 150%
*Size6: 175%
(The Above damage i mean, Say the enemy is hitting you for 100 Damage unblocked, If you blocked and the counter-activated with a Size1 shield, You would (Like a normal counter) take 0 Damage, and the Enemy would take 50, With a Size6, You'd take 0 and Enemy would take 175 DMG from the counter, would add a small bit of Over-all damage.)

Could Give it Fencer at a stronger Level. Give it a Separate Trait "Fencer II" That, While doing what Fencer normally does, Also Increases Attack Speed (5%), and Attack (5%), and Critical hit Damage (5%) when wielding Sword/Shield.

Could Give us Shields with Offensive capabilities as well. Give us a Shield Like Sentinel Shield, instead of buttloads of MDB/Enmity shields, Give us one with Attack, DBL Attack, Haste, maybe one that increases Reprisal Effect (maybe Double Reprisals Damage?) etc, Something that would increase our DoT and not be a terribly outdated shield.

Could Allow Enlight to work on all hits of a Multi-hit Weapon, and degrade Slower (will have to do the same to DRKs). Could also give Enlight a Dbl.atk Effect. Degrading the same rate as the Additional Damage/accuracy bonus.

(This might be a repeat). Enhance Swift Blade, give Swift Blade a higher fTP/Mods, and make it a Critical hit Weaponskill, not more powerful than Chant-du-Sygne, But closer on the level of Eviscer/RR.

in terms of Enmity, Give PLD an Ability Similar to Accomplice/Collaborate, Except that have it Negate Enmity Generation for everyone in range for 30~ Seconds, Hell call it "Castle Walls" Job Trait, and it gives "Rampart" The effect to do the Above. During Rampart, No Enmity will be generated by players hit other than the PLD. won't help a lot, but a little.


I can't think of anything else, But the gist of what I'm saying is PLD needs help Damage wise, not Defensive Wise. It could be the most defensive job in the game, But if it kills really slow, 9/10 players will choose kill-speed over Safety-net. I'm not suggesting all the above ideas, But nearly suggesting them as to elaborate on what i mean as "More Offensive Abilities". It doesn't need to be so broken that other jobs are obsoleted, but given them the ability to at least keep up with DDs might make it more acceptable.

I can't make Promises >.>, But the way to fix PLD isn't Defensive, Its Offensive.

and that Nerfing other jobs is -not- the Solution. NERFING is never the Solution. It is only a problem.
Don't make suggestions on a job you know nothing about. PLD's DD capabilities are really not bad at all with razed ruins. Vorpal Blade (or CDC even) is a great WS and allows PLD to at least keep up. Now... if your PLD's are stacking HP and refresh atma's then it's their fault their dmg is garbage. But give the job it's due credit... it's been DD'ing a long time now.

[Greatguardian]

That aside, it still seems a better suggestion than most of the garbage posted online. PLD has great WS access, A+ skill ratings, and and fairly hot Armor/Weapon access. It just has absolutely 0 Offensive JAs/Spells when it uses its best Offensive (and in most cases Defensive as well) subjob. Enlight was a nice gesture, but unless you're casting it between fights and only between fights, you lose more damage putting it up than you gain. PLD can keep up with most mid-tier DDs just fine, but no one wants mid-tier DDs either.

[Karbuncle]

Don't make suggestions on a job you know nothing about. PLD's DD capabilities are really not bad at all with razed ruins. Vorpal Blade (or CDC even) is a great WS and allows PLD to at least keep up. Now... if your PLD's are stacking HP and refresh atma's then it's their fault their dmg is garbage. But give the job it's due credit... it's been DD'ing a long time now.

First off, insulting me completely unprovoked is Inflammatory. If you cannot post without childish Insults i suggest you do not respond at all, It is and was uncalled for.

Secondly, While I'm aware Vorpal Blade is a Decent Weaponskill, It is Simply not good enough. Ignoring the Problem by saying its fine its simply not a good way to get a job fixed. Yes CDC is a great Weaponskill as well, However the requirement of Having an Empyrean WS just to simply make a job viable in an Offensive way is not a good thing, and even then, it is simply just not powerful enough to fix what PLD needs fixing in. Its a step in the right direction I never Suggested otherwise.

I only suggested a way to improve on what PLD needs most, Offensive Capabilities. I'm Sorry that what i said apparently offended you. But I am not blind my friend, I Can clearly see that PLD is not used by popular means, and having PLD90 myself, as well as Multiple other main-stream current DD/Tanking jobs, I can safely say PLD is Obsoleted and Unneccessary for any and all aspects of the Current FFXI state. You do not have to agree with me as i understand it is not an opinion everyone will share.

But, If Vorpal blade and Razed Ruins was enough to make PLD a competent DD, There would not be so many "Fix PLD" Threads, and it would not be obvious to people that PLD is being obsoleted and Unused. It in itself is a powerful combo, But it is in itself not enough to fix the Core problems of PLD. I was as upset as anyone to see PLD slowly becoming Obsolete with the introduction of abyssea, and even before then with the player-base slowly switching to DD Tanks as more efficient means of Combat.

So I'll stand by my Opinion, saying an Atma combos suddenly will make PLD viable at all is an assumption and Opinion I do not share. It may make a great PLD about as good as a Mediocre Warrior, But it simply does not give PLD enough to make it useful in the Current Endgame or Exp Situations.

What needs to be done to PLD, Despite its current state, Is access to more offensive Capabilities. In the End it may have been "DD'ing for a while now" But it has not been doing it well enough alone. Cause in reality, Even the best perfect PLD will not be able to keep up with a DD of Equal intelligence and Gear. Which is sad. Because In most cases that DD would probably also Out-tank the PLD. It upsets me just as much as anyone that the job has slowly become obsoleted. But Unlike some people (Not necessarily you), I can see clearly that Paladin, In its Current state, Is simply not worth using.

I do not suggest people stop using PLD, I do not suggest people who love the job to stop playing it, And i certainly do not suggest those who play the job themselves are stupid. Above statements are my Opinions. You do not have to believe them or Accept them.


That aside, it still seems a better suggestion than most of the garbage posted online. PLD has great WS access, A+ skill ratings, and and fairly hot Armor/Weapon access. It just has absolutely 0 Offensive JAs/Spells when it uses its best Offensive (and in most cases Defensive as well) subjob. Enlight was a nice gesture, but unless you're casting it between fights and only between fights, you lose more damage putting it up than you gain. PLD can keep up with most mid-tier DDs just fine, but no one wants mid-tier DDs either.

I appreciate that you can understand What i was saying. Thank you

Edit: While saying a WHM could Out-DD it might be a step too Far, But i dunno if you've ever seen a good WHM/NIN, and Hexa is a Critical hit WS... I think You'd be surprised how well it did.

Edit2: I'm going to Sleep now, I enjoy the idea of continued conversation when i wake up!

[Billnye]

So lets just say they give pld an offensive overhaul that puts them on equal ground with other DD. Now what? We are back to the days of atonement. People will use pld that produces just about if not more damage than other jobs who's roles are to damage.

I posted a long drawn out thread:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/2549-The-Paladin-Paradigm-A-Shift-for-Better-Balance

In that thread, I try to show that if paladin become the next best DD, then your war, drks, drgs, sams, etc will be in the same place (if not already) as pld. Balance is a relative term. You don't want all jobs to do the same thing, instead you want all jobs to do their role equally and efficiently.

The root of the problem for paladin is clear: other jobs that specialize in different roles can tank better. Why pld when war can DD and Tank? My suggestion in that thread is simple, gives tanking a new approach, and more importantly balances jobs and encourages use of more jobs.

[Zagen]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/2549-The-Paladin-Paradigm-A-Shift-for-Better-Balance
Your solution is cover? So you want to tank by having another DD who is capped on hate hide behind you? Dunno to me that doesn't make you a tank.

Also how does that make the cover target lose any hate at all, after all VE will be recapping from melee hits and CE will stay capped? Sounds broken to me even compared to making PLD a stronger DD to keep up with the other DDs. I mean you could equip -50PDT/MDT/DT as needed since if you use Gallant Coronet magic attacks hit you too. So you become the "Oh crap" gear for the DD while they get to keep on their DD gear.

[Billnye]

Your solution is cover? So you want to tank by having another DD who is capped on hate hide behind you? Dunno to me that doesn't make you a tank.

Also how does that make the cover target lose any hate at all, after all VE will be recapping from melee hits and CE will stay capped? Sounds broken to me even compared to making PLD a stronger DD to keep up with the other DDs. I mean you could equip -50PDT/MDT/DT as needed since if you use Gallant Coronet magic attacks hit you too. So you become the "Oh crap" gear for the DD while they get to keep on their DD gear.

Elaborate on what tank means to you. To me, as wrote out in that thread, tanking involves two roles: Manipulating damage output and controlling damage output. By extending the duration of cover to 5 mins with recast of 30 sec, you can fulfill both roles while still being "wanted" in a party. Manipulate damage output via -pdt/-mdt/-dt gear, shield blocks, job abilities, etc. Control damage output not by being "capped on hate" but by relying on others to cap hate and diverting that attention onto the pld through cover.

As for being "broken", it is far from broken. Cover has too many checks to have it be 100% broken. You have to stand in front of target, you can only have one target, and it can be dispelled. Add in also a large majority of TP moves from NMs are AOE not single target, extended cover would not break the game.

[Karbuncle]

So lets just say they give pld an offensive overhaul that puts them on equal ground with other DD. Now what? We are back to the days of atonement. People will use pld that produces just about if not more damage than other jobs who's roles are to damage.

I posted a long drawn out thread:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/2549-The-Paladin-Paradigm-A-Shift-for-Better-Balance

In that thread, I try to show that if paladin become the next best DD, then your war, drks, drgs, sams, etc will be in the same place (if not already) as pld. Balance is a relative term. You don't want all jobs to do the same thing, instead you want all jobs to do their role equally and efficiently.

The root of the problem for paladin is clear: other jobs that specialize in different roles can tank better. Why pld when war can DD and Tank? My suggestion in that thread is simple, gives tanking a new approach, and more importantly balances jobs and encourages use of more jobs.

Hmmm, Maybe I have failed to put my point across. I apologize for the confusion this must be causing you.

I did not mean to imply PLD had to become the BEST dd in the game ever, Completely shitting over other DDs. I simply suggest a means to make PLD as good or slightly less than current DD. Basically, If you put a good MNK, and a God WAR together, They'll probably go Neck-in-neck, But both are still used.

If you put a good NIN and a good THF competing in tanking/DD, they'll go neck and neck probably, yet both are still used.

One job becoming better does not Always obsolete other jobs. PLD just became absolutely obsoleted because it, while a good tank, was left behind in terms of Damage output, it got left REALLY far behind, And todays FFXI players prefer the means of Speed and efficiency over a safety net with PLD. DDs are smarter, MP is more readily available, etc, etc.

PLD Even got an Atonement nerf in Abyssea, Most NMs take only 50% Damage from Atonement. Why? IHNC, but thankfully even without the Nerf It would pale to Vorpal blade with RR/etc, So its not a big deal, Its just always peeved me that they nerfed atonement in abyssea.


So what I'm trying to say, Is Simply give PLD enough offensive capabilities to where, If pitted against a THF, MNK, WAR, NIN, something that tanks today of Equal gear and Intelligence, It could be able to at the very least keep up in parse with them to an Extent, to about ~10% difference in Damage.

If the Above jobs can Tank as good as PLD, in some cases better, There is no reason a PLD should not be able to keep up with them in damage too.

We already have A+ Sword and A lot of good Melee gear available, Vorpal blade is a good start but its simply not good enough. I'd stick by my proposed ideas. Giving PLD a Counter-Effect on Shield Blocks (~25%), Re-making Swift blade to have a Higher fTP and higher mods, as well as making it Critical hit based would really help (Don't make it as powerful as CDC as it would obsolete it for PLD, But near as strong is good).

Give PLD access to more offensive JA/spells. Perhaps a JA That, While surpressing your Ability to Self-Buff (locks Shell/Protect/Enlight/phalanx/etc), It could increase your likely hood of attacking twice by 25%. (dur 5 min, recast 1 min)

Maybe Rework Enlight to add a Store TP Effect Similar to the Accuracy effect. +50 (with hit) Degrading over each hit like the Damage. Would help it WS more.

Perhaps you could even add a Job Trait, I won't bother trying to name it, That after Each Shield Block, Will raise your Accuracy, Attack, Critical hit Rate, and Critical hit Damage by 1% (to a maximum of +15% each). Resetting after the Enemy is defeated. It could even be a Job Ability. Even though it would take ~15 Shield blocks to reach maximum, and would for that reason only shine during longer NM fights, It'd still be a readily increases damage output.

Edit: and on the Subject of the Cover Debate, It sounds like a good Idea in Theory, But even if PLD could cover anyone anytime, People will likely still not bring it, Because you could just replace the PLD with another DD tank, Kill the mob quicker, and Still be as safe as with the PLD. It just would not be enough to get PLD a spot in the party. Even if he could run around in full DT covering whoever, I, personally as an opinion, do not believe it will draw enough attention to PLD to get it into the main-stream tanking again if it still falls behind in terms of Damage. Most people with opt for the Heavier DD.

[Amoklauf]

All of the official forums suffers of too much "the only solution is..." and too little spitballing. Some of the ideas are good, but people 100% convinced that they have "the answer" usually end up arguing and it degenerates the discussion.

Personally, I wish people would talk more about the general direction jobs/the game should go in. As in, my opinion on the direction PLD changes should go in:
- a way to translate their defense/survivability into damage (reprisal tried to do it, but it's no reflect) so that stacking up on defense doesn't mean making the fight longer. Especially with certain NM's getting stronger over time, I believe that's the reason MNK's NIN's and even WAR's have become preferred "tanks".
- more shield related stuff so that people don't miss DW and the gap between aegis, ochain and the rest of the available shields is closed. (seems like there's a bigger difference there than any of the weapons and the next best thing)

Leave it to SE to come up with the specifics.

[vileragnorok]

I remember a time when monks fear was being one shoted.They built tp on the side lines to come raise hell when the mobs hp was below 75%. My how the tides have turned,the months of campain battle wasted for the gear plds needed to be successful.I feel pity for the plds who took the time for burtgang and aegis to sit on the sidelines. The challenge of the game is gone. The years i spent wasted on the tanking role i took, thanks SE.

[Zagen]

Elaborate on what tank means to you. To me, as wrote out in that thread, tanking involves two roles: Manipulating damage output and controlling damage output. By extending the duration of cover to 5 mins with recast of 30 sec, you can fulfill both roles while still being "wanted" in a party. Manipulate damage output via -pdt/-mdt/-dt gear, shield blocks, job abilities, etc. Control damage output not by being "capped on hate" but by relying on others to cap hate and diverting that attention onto the pld through cover.

A Tank to me is someone who will make sure they fully or for the majority of the time fully keep the attention of a monster.

Your solution is to make someone else do that and you cover them. Effectively meaning they will be taking much less damage and in some cases none at all since you're soaking it up for them.


As for being "broken", it is far from broken. Cover has too many checks to have it be 100% broken. You have to stand in front of target, you can only have one target, and it can be dispelled. Add in also a large majority of TP moves from NMs are AOE not single target, extended cover would not break the game.

If your target is the DD that is keeping their hate capped then why would it matter you only have 1 target?

Unless you are fighting a mob that has a strong Regain then you shouldn't get spammed with TP moves and even then the DD you're covering will recap that hate lost really quickly.

Maybe you don't have Stun to stop spells or the mob is resistant but that isn't the case a lot of the time.

As to being dispelled unless a monster has add effect dispel on melee hits, I've never come across a monster that spams dispel TP moves or spells in under 30 seconds.

[Karumac]

Giant. Flaming. Z.

[Karbuncle]

Chant Du Sygne is still not enough to make a PLD using over a MNK, WAR, THF, NIN, etc with equal gear and Intelligence. It'll make that great PLD better than terrible/Mediocre/Average DDs, But it will not make it strong enough to be used effectively.

I'm trying to speak well when i say this, I'm not trying to be a downer or denote PLD over-all, But as of right now, Even with Chant-Du-sygne, They cannot preform in the DD Department as good as other main-stream DD of equal intelligence and gear. If you put an Ukon War vs a Almace PLD, the Ukon WAR will smash the PLD. if you put a Vereth MNK and a Almace PLD, the MNk will smash the PLD.

If you put a Kannagi NIN vs Almace PLD, You see my point. If a PLD vs a Player of Equal gear and Intelligence are placed together, more times than not the PLD will not out DD them, and in some cases, will not even out-tank them. PLD does need more offensive abilities that does not limit to being forced to own an Empyrean to half-perform (Ochain/Almace). On its own it should be able to Tank great, and DD with the best of them.

Almace/Chant is an Absolutely brilliant combo for PLD, It does take its DD up a huge step, But what point I'm trying to convey is that the damage increase from the above isn't enough to make it stand out as a tank in the midst of the current DDtanks. Plus requiring a Empyrean to be good Isn't fair to the job either :)


PLD needs to go in the direction of "Okay, We're good on Defensive abilities, We can add those in sparce, but we need to buff up PLDs offensive abilities so it can walk in the direction of a DDtank, Like it should be". If people ever what the job to be useful again they need to stop thinking of PLD from some D&D Roleplay Knight-in-Shinning-armor standpoint that just screams "DONT WORRY MAIDEN, I'LL COVER YOU".

PLD needs to be as good offensive as it is defensive. Slightly better in defense, Heavily on Offense, This will make the job more appealing as long as it can keep up with Current DDtanks, and offer more to the table (added protection/cure spells, Reprisal and (myidea) Shield-counter damage mitigation) etc, this will make it a bit better.

Adding the idea to be able to Cover more often (maybe 45sec Dur, 1min recast on the off chance you lose hate (Hate reset mobs?) would also be a unique aspect to PLD. No other DDtank has the ability to do this (THF on a small level, with Coll/acompl), Which in itself (If PLD is upgraded in the DD department to be effective with or without an Empyrean) would give PLD a use in some situations.

Theres not so much wrong with PLD, it has the right basics, A+ Skill, DD Gear, Good Weapnskills, it just lacks offensive Job Abilities and Job traits to make those skills really shine. It just needs a little tweaking in the right direction and i think PLD could be a good job again.

We just have to wait and see :|

[LeaderofAtlantis]

PLD should NOT be on par with DD classes in damage. This is the same stuff I hear from THFs too. I'll say the same thing here that I said there - there's plenty of jobs that are DDs. If you want to be a DD, pick one of them. They each specialize in a form of DD so there's enough variety to go around.

PLDs defense and enmity grabbing capabilities need a boost. The PLD's HP should be second only to a MNK's, that's fine, but who cares if a MNK has 3k+ HP if, on unblocked hits, they're taking 200-250 dmg from non criticals whereas a PLD, with around 2k HP is only taking 50 dmg from those same kind of unblocked hits. Maybe not that dramatic of a difference in HP or damage taken, but you get the idea.

[Karbuncle]

PLD should NOT be on par with DD classes in damage. This is the same stuff I hear from THFs too. I'll say the same thing here that I said there - there's plenty of jobs that are DDs. If you want to be a DD, pick one of them. They each specialize in a form of DD so there's enough variety to go around.

PLDs defense and enmity grabbing capabilities need a boost. The PLD's HP should be second only to a MNK's, that's fine, but who cares if a MNK has 3k+ HP if, on unblocked hits, they're taking 200-250 dmg from non criticals whereas a PLD, with around 2k HP is only taking 50 dmg from those same kind of unblocked hits. Maybe not that dramatic of a difference in HP or damage taken, but you get the idea.

If PLD only gets more Defensive abilities its almost guaranteed to never be a used tank again :\. The problem is that players will opt out for Speed rather than Defense.

Its sad but true. Its mainly because of the Enmity Cap as well, where any good DD will eventually catch up to a PLD in terms of Enmity, and the Mob will just face the last person to swing due to capped Enmity and Fluctuating VE :(

[LeaderofAtlantis]

If PLD only gets more Defensive abilities its almost guaranteed to never be a used tank again :\. The problem is that players will opt out for Speed rather than Defense.

Its sad but true. Its mainly because of the Enmity Cap as well, where any good DD will eventually catch up to a PLD in terms of Enmity, and the Mob will just face the last person to swing due to capped Enmity and Fluctuating VE :(

I explained a simple fix for the enmity cap in another thread - allow PLD to break the cap through Job Traits. A PLD could still have their enmity decay below the standard cap and thus lose hate, but this would allow them to maintain a hold much more readily.

[Cream_Soda]

I explained a simple fix for the enmity cap in another thread - allow PLD to break the cap through Job Traits. A PLD could still have their enmity decay below the standard cap and thus lose hate, but this would allow them to maintain a hold much more readily.
Even if they get more enmity, as long as DDs can deal more damage and not die, there is no reason to have a pld