View Full Version : WHM Have NO Natural Refresh Capability, WHY?
Wolfe
03-15-2011, 04:37 PM
Allow me to break this down into nice little categories for everyone.
Cura II
As if the first spell didn't suck enough already, now you add in Cura II. Wouldn't have been too bad of a spell if you could target people outside of your party, then it would ALMOST make sense to have it. All Cura is, is an under powered Curaga. And no, it does not matter if Afflatus Misery is up or not, the spell still sucks. Being able to cure 100+ HP, ONLY if you have sustained sufficient damage and ONLY to yourself makes it stupid. Guess what? White Mages are NOT supposed to sustain damage. Hence why there is enmity down armor. Curaga may take up a little bit more MP, but the amount of HP recovered is more stable and reliable than Cura AND you can cast it on other people instead of having to run down to the DD's and put yourself in harms way. Which ALSO makes Cura useless because in a pinch, I am going to throw out a Curaga spell first (especially to wake other sleeping teammates!), that way I do not have to worry about accidentally moving and interrupting my spell casting (which seldom happens for me, but happens quote often if you are not used to playing the job). I am a seasoned White Mage, I have been playing it for 6+ years. Cura is a joke. Care to guess what that makes Cura II?
Refresh II
Because Red Mages everywhere were upset about Battery Charge being too powerful, now they get Refresh II and guess what? You are boosting the effect of Battery Charge to make it more powerful still. While White Mages STILL have no natural ("natural" means the job by itself with no subjob or other item/equipment) refresh capability. Every single mage job in the game (any job that uses MP naturally) has some form of natural refresh. Let me count the ways:
Natural Forms of Refresh (or otherwise saving MP)
* White Mage: Nothing
* White Mage: Devotion (Oh wait, that gives MP to OTHER people... yeah no MP for WHM)
* Black Mage: Aspir (May not be much, but its something)
* Black mage: Manafont (2HR, unlimited MP)
* Black Mage: Clear Mind V (May not be refresh, but sure helps a lot when healing. Originally not given to WHM or SMN at 75, they have to wait the longest, why?)
* Red Mage: Convert
* Red Mage: Refresh
* Red Mage: Refresh II (That's right, 3 forms of MP recovery while most jobs have 1, maybe 2)
* Paladin: Auto-Refresh (May not be much, but PLD do not have much MP to begin with)
* Paladin: Chivalry (Converts TP to MP)
* Dark Knight: Aspir
* Dark Knight: Aspir II (Still beats nothing)
* Bard: Mages Ballad (Does not even use MP naturally and they have a form of Refresh)
* Bard: Mages Ballad II (I understand, support job, fine. But they still have Refresh)
* Bard: Mages Ballad III (Really?)
* Summoner: Auto-Refresh (May not be much, but helps when no Avatar is out)
* Summoner: Elemental Siphon (Which has also received a boost)
* Summoner: Clear Mind V (Same as stated for BLM)
* Summoner: Diabolos + Avatar's Favor (May not recover much for the SMN, but helps everyone else and was made stronger in a recent update)
* Summoner: Perpetuation Cost going down past level 75, that will make the above combination much more useful.
* Blue Mage: Battery Charge
* Blue Mage: Diffusion + Battery Charge = Refreshga
* Blue Mage: Auto-Refresh (Numerous ways to obtain this)
* Corsair: Evoker's Roll (Again, another support job, but they at least still have it as an option)
* Dancer: Aspir Samba (Not really a support job in the same sense that BRD & COR are, but still has some form of refresh)
* Dancer: Aspir Samba II (Thanks for 2 forms, that they don't need. And when are mages going to melee anyway? That makes this useful to PLD & DRK, assuming they don't want Haste instead)
* Scholar: Sublimation (Up to 25% of Max HP restored to MP, without merits)
* Scholar: Light/Dark Arts (Helps save 10% of MP, not a refresh)
* Scholar: Clear Mind V (Third job to have this)
* Scholar: Strategems (More ways to save MP, even though no refresh)
* Scholar: Manifestation + Aspir = Lots of MP back (great in large sleeping crowds)
What to Give White Mages
How about Reviviscence? WHM are already the kings of "ga" spells, right? Why not Stoneskinga, Aquaveilga, Blinkga, give some power back to and potency back to WHM? Hastega? Hey, you already gave it to Garuda, why not give it to a WHM so that it can NOT suck horribly? If a BLU uses Diffusion, they can cast an AOE Haste that is MUCH more potent than a WHM Haste (something else that now sucks). Clear Mind V at a lower level? Since they have NO refresh ability, they should have the highest Clear Mind in the game. Ooh, how about Clear Mind VI? No, that would make too much sense. Can't have that now, can we? Then people might actually think you care about your fans and don't want to royally screw over WHM, like you have been doing for years. I'll be the first person to admit it, I'm biased towards WHM. But come on, Cure VI is crap (its less efficient than Cure II). Cura I & II are a slap in the face of WHM everywhere. The only good thing you have done for WHM since I have been playing is Afflatus Solace. Misery is useless unless you are soloing/DD'ing and pop up Auspice for Light damage to try and make your lolddwhm less of a joke. Oh man, give a WHM Razed Ruins and let them Hexa Strike and it can out parse Randgrith 1,000 times over.
Conclusion
Please explain to me how this is fair to White mages? And do not say that Cure VI means anything because after using it in battle, Cure V is FAR more efficient, especially to the MP conserving WHM. Cure VI should be a FULL heal for the amount of MP consumed. Almost double the MP consumed, but the amount of HP healed more than a Cure V is about... 50-75 HP, total. Thanks, but I'll toss out two Cure V, suck up the extra 47 MP, heal almost twice the amount of HP and save on enmity since Cure V builds as much hate as a Cure III and Cure VI builds slightly more than a Cure IV. When you balance everything out, White Mage got tossed into the water of Kazham and, let's face it, like every GM knows, that is where the Galka bath. And that's just not right.
To those who wish to comment
Only comment if you ACTUALLY play WHM. Do not tell me to /SCH or /RDM if I want refresh because that defeats the whole purpose of a "Natural" Refresh. It is already mandatory to /SCH for every veteran WHM out there. I know a lot of other people like to /RDM for Convert and Refresh (and Fast Cast). WHM should be concentrating on conserving MP as much as possible because there currently is no Natural Refresh. Sublimation and Light Arts are what most WHM should have up. In the long run, it is more reliable to have MP available without having to waste time curing yourself. A Cure V (or Cure VI if you insist) cast on a WHM that converted is time wasted that could be spent curing a teammate in a dire situation.
Effilil
03-15-2011, 09:07 PM
WHM gets 2 native refresh abilities, with 2 major flaws...both are club weapon skills that give 1/9th clubskill in mp, which means you get 37 mp back as a base (there are a couple modifiers such as tp) and no one really lets or wants whm to melee in a party, so you can't use them
I agree with you about Afflatus Misery...I only use it macroe'd in with Esuna (which isn't as good as it should be, it should be able to remove all status ailments except weakness). Solace is the best thing to happen to whm, and I keep it up almost all the time as whm
in terms of usefulness, it seems to me that Sch was built to remove us poor whm from the game...all we really have going for us is -ga and teleports, and they've almost totally removed the need to hire a whm for teleports
Haste 2, Hastega, other buffga spells, and fixing the bar spells so they actually are worth casting would be great additions to whm, even if they don't give us a native refresh ability (which I have wondered why whm doesn't get one since I started playing...it doesn't make sense)
Whm is also the only job to not get any decent boosts in several updates...the latest insult? a job trait that speeds up casting for ailment recovery spells. useful? yes, needed? not really since those spells have short casting times anyway. the best part about it is that it shortens the recast timer
Whm really does need some decent boosts...almost everything a whm is needed for can be done by other jobs using /whm now, which is leaving us poor whm behind
I also wouldn't mind some sort of boost to whm DD, some sort of trait or abilities that could lend whm to actually being wanted to melee for more than ws procs in aby
last point...if whm main weapon is a club, why is the cure potency weapon a staff?
I started out as a whm, and still use it actively...I'm usually main healer in my endgame linkshells because I'm just so experienced as a whm
Such anger! I like it! Now use it for KILLAGE! MWAHAHAHA!! :mad:
Mystic Boon is what WHMs get. It's mega-huge. And as if that weren't enough, we got Dagan for guaranteed returns (though they might be smaller). ;)
Orenwald
03-15-2011, 10:44 PM
First of all, Cura II is a great spell when you know how to use it. Afflatus Misery is for use as a MELEE white mage (which is very fun :D). Cura II is the single most MP efficient way to recover from an AoE move restoring up to 250 MP per person for 45 mp.
Second, you list Clear Mind V as a BLM thing that WHM does have, but WHM gets it at 80, which makes your list very misleading.
Third, 9 times out of 10 RDMs are too lazy to refresh WHMs (in my experience) so WHM/rdm works better for me than /SCH because I can refresh myself. plus when I convert I never cure myself, by the time I need to convert again I've Auto-Regen II'd all my MP back (gogo elvaan MP pool!)
Simian
03-15-2011, 11:20 PM
First...I am a WHM that has been playing it as long as you....but I am not an in the box WHM either....not many WHM's that I know have capped merits on Divine Magic....
Secondly...I am Galka and I do not bathe in the waters off Khazam and unless you're a Taru...you do not have my MP pool or my HP pool....
With that said....Outside of Abyssea...when in healer mode....it is WHM/RDM....I can convert and cure someone before I even bother with myself....Within Abyssea....it is /BLM unless the fight is something that will tax my MP pool more than usual....and it is rare in either instance that I take a knee to recover MP....so I think my refresh rate is pretty good....
I'd rather see upgrades to light based damage spells rather than job traits.
Alkimi
03-16-2011, 01:14 AM
WHM should be concentrating on conserving MP as much as possible because there currently is no Natural Refresh. situation.
True, we don't have natural refresh. But I really don't see how it is a problem if you play WHM well. You can already get up to 7/tick in gear refresh (up to 9/tick if using Sublimation aswell) and Orison Pantaloons +2 cuts the cost of Cure V down to about 69 MP or thereabouts.
Cure VI is really an abyssea-only spell, useful for heavy curing a DD tank when the recast timer on Cure V isn't quick enough, and in that place refresh isn't a problem anyway.
Whm really does need some decent boosts...almost everything a whm is needed for can be done by other jobs using /whm now, which is leaving us poor whm behind
Complete nonsense really, sorry. The fact that only WHM can use cures higher than IV means they're near-essential for most things. Try curing a DD fighting Rani/Raja/Shinryu using only Cure IV from a subjob, it's not gonna work unless there's 3 of you spamming it.
Vraelia
03-16-2011, 01:51 AM
I would like to say, I am a 90 RDM and WHM....and for you to state that about RDMs. Is completely disrespectful in my eyes. RDMs are masters of Refreshing as well as Enfeebling. So, please, back off of RDMs. lols
Anyways, I do agree that WHMs should get a Auto-Refresh JT. It would be useful. lol
Hiroshiko
03-16-2011, 02:30 AM
I agree that throughout the years the main issue with WHM was its lack of MP conservation/restoration tools compared to the other mages. I never understood why WHM had the lowest Clear Mind trait of all the mages but had no form of MP restoration. Our potency makes up for a bit of that (“why cast 2 Cure IVs when you can cast Cure V once?” kind of deal), but overall we really had nothing naturally. However, with the introduction of /SCH, the ability to sub RDM (I still prefer /SCH but to each his/her own), and, in Abyssea, Refresh atma, some of our MP issues are becoming less severe. Would I like to see some form of natural MP conservation/restoration tool? Sure, but I don't think it would need to be anything drastic. Maybe a decent Conserve MP trait tacked on at a lower level, or a trait similar to the Orison Pantaloons +1/2 that stacked? Even something like a light-based Aspir that actually works on more than a handful of mobs would be nice. Drains a monster’s HP and converts it to our MP? I don't know. I'll leave that to someone creative.
Also, Cure II isn't as terrible as its predecessor. While it's still not great and I still don't use it as much as Curaga, it does come in handy for some older content mobs (Salvage gears mainly and maybe Cactuar) where I can sit in range of a moderate AoE and actually heal more than I was damaged for (unlike Cura which usually couldn't keep up). However, it is still a slap in the face for larger fights. Cure VI on the other hand is a nightmare. Like the OP said, the ratio of Cure/MP is terrible and is even worse outside of Abyssea when people aren't taking ridiculous amounts of damage. It’s a nice alternative if Cure V is down and someone really needs it.
Overall though, WHM is doing a lot better than it was in the older days. Afflatus Solace/Misery, Esuna, Sacrifice, etc. were nice starts and we have gotten other decent additions (especially inside Abyssea). However, a few tweaks here and there would still be appreciated.
Fredjan
03-16-2011, 03:26 AM
To the WHM/RDMs in this thead saying they /rdm so they can refresh themselves:
A WHM/SCH has pretty much the exact same thing in the form of 3mp/tic Sublimation at 90 (SCH45 gets the improved trait, and at level 85+ it's just insane for scholar but that's another subject for another job). At that point it's a question of MP conservation and flexibility from Light Arts' job abilities (/SCH) or convert with a 10minute timer (/RDM) and to me the choice is obvious. I - personally - have never used /rdm, and don't see the point of it outside of cases of having an easy-to-access dark based sleep or dispel without having to pop Dark Arts + Addendum: Black. RDM sub loses the entire point of MP conservation and flexibility (not to mention the conserve MP job trait itself) for raw MP, and that doesn't mean it's superior even without access to Refresh II from a Red Mage. But hey, to each their own.
In abyssea, most White Mages do use refresh atma as some have said here, and there's chances regardless of the sub you'll run low on MP (I feel /sch WHMs last the longest, but that's me). But in a lot of cases, I'll pop Sublimation, and have it fully charged and not even need it, and the buff eventually wears off. In cases like this, it doesn't really matter what the sub is. There's uses for even Black Mage sub (okay, one use... Stun). Conserve MP was the main reason I used /BLM back in the day, but /SCH has it. I have never /BLM'ed just for Warp for example outside of easy traveling to HP when I'm moving around. You'd be surprised how many people I know use it just for Warp after an event... hello, instant warp scroll, only 10 Conquest Points DO YOU HAVE IT?! I personally could get over 30000 instant warp scrolls. That's awesome.
/minor support job rant off. That isn't meant to offend people or anything, it's just how I feel about White Mage's support job options. To each their own, and I'll stick to my view of them. :P
To the point at hand (the topic):
I completely agree that White Mage could use something unique to itself that'd offer MP restoration/conservation. We have no natural refresh without having to resort to weaponskills or support jobs. I would definitely like to see WHM get something, even Auto-Refresh if naught else. Orison Pantaloons +2 was awesome and I feel it's one of the nicest pieces of empyrean armor out there. 5% of a cure amount doesn't seem like a ton but it's more than one'd think. As an example... 1532 Cure 6 for example (something I've managed to reach) would net ~76 MP back. Say I used Light Arts and Penury, lowering the cost to 113~ MP (not even considering further conserve MP procs which are possible). I'd end up spending only 37-38 MP to cure for 1500+. That's just win.
Simian
03-16-2011, 05:06 AM
The Cobra Unit Robe set from Campaign has +13 MP conserve for the set. I was laughed at for using it prior to being able to convert and refresh from /RDM, but the set does go far in that category, it just does not add enough MP for those needing an MP pool boost like Galka do.
Wolfe
03-16-2011, 05:22 AM
Such anger! I like it! Now use it for KILLAGE! MWAHAHAHA!! :mad:
Mystic Boon is what WHMs get. It's mega-huge. And as if that weren't enough, we got Dagan for guaranteed returns (though they might be smaller). ;)
WHM are NOT supposed to be a DD job, so how do they get TP? Whats more, unless you have ACTUALLY leveled your club skill, how are you going to hit the mob and GET TP? The theory behind that being a great way to get MP back is flawed, severely, which is why I left it out completely. You can not get MP back if your club skill is not leveled, you need a decent club to begin with and the best healing boost weapons are staves. Which you ALSO need to skill up if you want to be able to effectively use Spirit Taker.
Wolfe
03-16-2011, 05:38 AM
First...I am a WHM that has been playing it as long as you....but I am not an in the box WHM either....not many WHM's that I know have capped merits on Divine Magic....
Secondly...I am Galka and I do not bathe in the waters off Khazam and unless you're a Taru...you do not have my MP pool or my HP pool....
With that said....Outside of Abyssea...when in healer mode....it is WHM/RDM....I can convert and cure someone before I even bother with myself....Within Abyssea....it is /BLM unless the fight is something that will tax my MP pool more than usual....and it is rare in either instance that I take a knee to recover MP....so I think my refresh rate is pretty good....
I'd rather see upgrades to light based damage spells rather than job traits.
I have just about capped all my skills on WHM, I have 50% cure potency gear, and /SCH is the best for immediate MP recovery without taking a chance that I might die from a hate reset move. I have seen a lot of WHM die from Convert because the mob used a hate reset move, another mob saw low HP or just aggroed in general because they WHM has to move far enough away from the mob being fought so as not to die to a stray AoE.
And bathing in the waters of Kazham is a joke that GM's use. Ask them about it some time. It is the same as if you ask them to marry you, they will tell you they are married to SE. Every time.
In Abyssea, I go WHM90/SCH45 and I take 3 atmas, Ambition, Harmony, and Minikin Monstrosity. I never run out of MP and if I do, Sublimation is well enough to keep me going until the mob dies.
The point I am making is, WHM have no natural refresh. I don't care about how you can get around it with subjobs. A subjob is designed to ENHANCE the main job. It should not be defining it. The best way to see if a job is balanced is to remove your subjob. There is a glitch in the game that allows you to do it, it has been addressed and brought forward to SE numerous times but since it is "not a 'useful' glitch," they have not removed it and it is not illegal to use it. Remove your subjob and see how great you do on WHM, by itself. Without any kind of refresh, WHM drain their MP pool fast and the party will wipe.
Wolfe
03-16-2011, 05:42 AM
The Cobra Unit Robe set from Campaign has +13 MP conserve for the set. I was laughed at for using it prior to being able to convert and refresh from /RDM, but the set does go far in that category, it just does not add enough MP for those needing an MP pool boost like Galka do.
Again, WHM still has no "natural" form of refresh.
Baroka
03-16-2011, 05:58 AM
Hmmm cure cap is 50% so i have no use for harmony or rescurer. I use allure MM and Apoc. Ideal in af3 +2 body because of +2 refresh a tick. but yes it would be really nice if whm would get a refresh triat. As a main whm we could really use it sometimes. also i only /sch. love being able to aoe stoneskin regen and what not when exping
Simian
03-16-2011, 08:05 AM
Then what is a sub job for if not to augment your main? Sorry, I am not seeing where 1 or 2 refresh/tic job trait would outweigh some of the other things needed by whm when I can get that refresh from subjobs and gear. It would be nice to have, I guess, but really, in all seriousness, can you even say that a refresh trait is as more of a need than adding much needed light damage spells that are far and away behind the current standard for any job at current max levels.
Someone once told me it isn't how much MP you have, it is how fast you can get it back, Part of getting it back is not spending it in the first place and Conserve MP works better on whm than it does on other jobs that have it. I can get 12mp/tic refresh outside of Abyssea. Is 1 or 2 mp/tic more going to save more than doing a Raise for less than a 100mp. If anything upgrade Conserve MP.
We can agree to disagree. I won't hold it against you, I promise. ...lol
"Without any kind of refresh, WHM drain their MP pool fast and the party will wipe."
Tell me you were not one of those WHM's that would not exp w/o a refresher prior to level cap increase. I had no problems handling an exp party w/o refresh.
kitykat
03-16-2011, 08:15 AM
Baroka.. i just wanted to say "I LOVE THAT PIC"!!! LOL
Aaralyn
03-16-2011, 11:16 AM
I think the main point is that every other mage job has some form of natural refresh, and WHM is the only one that doesn't. It really doesn't make much sense. We're the main job that is supposed to keep the parties alive, but we don't get any native abilities to back ourselves up.
One could argue that 89% of the time a WHM should have another job to support them in that area, but that still doesn't change the fact that we have nothing native to us. While every other job does, and has support from subjobs and other people's main jobs on top of it.
I wouldn't say that one is needed per say, but definitely would be nice. And make more sense.
Tsukino_Kaji
03-16-2011, 03:14 PM
WHM Have NO Natural Refresh Capability, WHY?Because we WHMs aren't complainers like PLDs or we'd already have auto refresh.
Wolfe
03-16-2011, 05:27 PM
Then what is a sub job for if not to augment your main?
Someone once told me it isn't how much MP you have, it is how fast you can get it back, Part of getting it back is not spending it in the first place and Conserve MP works better on whm than it does on other jobs that have it. I can get 12mp/tic refresh outside of Abyssea. Is 1 or 2 mp/tic more going to save more than doing a Raise for less than a 100mp. If anything upgrade Conserve MP.
We can agree to disagree. I won't hold it against you, I promise. ...lol
"Without any kind of refresh, WHM drain their MP pool fast and the party will wipe."
Tell me you were not one of those WHM's that would not exp w/o a refresher prior to level cap increase. I had no problems handling an exp party w/o refresh.
You said so yourself, what is a subjob for if not to augment your main? A subjob is to enhance the main job, not define it. If WHM has no form of refresh without a subjob, the job is useless by itself. Square Enix has said, numerous times, a support job is not supposed to define a job, but help to enhance it.
Whoever told you "it isn't how much MP you have, it is how fast you can get it back" is an idiot. Who cares if you can get back MP fast, if you nuke through it as fast as you can spend it, you are not efficient at all. AND look at the trait Clear Mind V. Before level 75, WHM did not even get it. And you can see that by giving it to SMN before WHM, they really did not intend on giving it to WHM at all. WHM is the last on the list to get Clear Mind V. And Conserve MP is nice, but it is NOT reliable. It is a random chance to save MP on a spell.
We can agree to disagree if you like. I have no problems admitting that I am wrong about something if someone can produce a valid argument. You are producing arguments and I am debating against them. This is productive to prove why I feel WHM need some natural form of Refresh. I had no problems handling an exp party without refresh, but when people would link, or do something stupid (believe it or not, people do this quite often), refresh can make or break a party.
Wolfe
03-16-2011, 05:29 PM
Because we WHMs aren't complainers like PLDs or we'd already have auto refresh.
Maybe not complainers, but I sure as hell am a whiner. I want refresh. I love my refresh atmas but there is a whole world outside of Abyssea and my atmas don't seem to work there. Every mage job in the game has some way to recover MP, except for WHM. Complainers or not, I want to know why SE has yet to give us some kind of refresh.
Wolfe
03-16-2011, 05:34 PM
Complete nonsense really, sorry. The fact that only WHM can use cures higher than IV means they're near-essential for most things. Try curing a DD fighting Rani/Raja/Shinryu using only Cure IV from a subjob, it's not gonna work unless there's 3 of you spamming it.
Actually, I have seen a BRD90/RDM45 play full healer for an entire alliance, successfully. He was trying to tell me how useless WHM are. He did a good job, but he was strictly geared for healing and not geared like a BRD should be. But, the point is, it can be done.
Wolfe
03-16-2011, 05:38 PM
I would like to say, I am a 90 RDM and WHM....and for you to state that about RDMs. Is completely disrespectful in my eyes. RDMs are masters of Refreshing as well as Enfeebling. So, please, back off of RDMs. lols
Anyways, I do agree that WHMs should get a Auto-Refresh JT. It would be useful. lol
Yes, it is disrespectful of RDM for me to say that. But before the level cap increase past 75, WHM were not wanted for meripo (merit parties) because a RDM was more useful. So hopefully you can see where my distaste of RDM comes from. I started the game on WHM and will probably die on WHM. No one ever lets me come on anything but WHM because I am good at it (maybe I should start letting people die, I'm sure that would fix the problem).
Wolfe
03-16-2011, 05:42 PM
To the WHM/RDMs in this thead saying they /rdm so they can refresh themselves:
A WHM/SCH has pretty much the exact same thing in the form of 3mp/tic Sublimation at 90 (SCH45 gets the improved trait, and at level 85+ it's just insane for scholar but that's another subject for another job). At that point it's a question of MP conservation and flexibility from Light Arts' job abilities (/SCH) or convert with a 10minute timer (/RDM) and to me the choice is obvious. I - personally - have never used /rdm, and don't see the point of it outside of cases of having an easy-to-access dark based sleep or dispel without having to pop Dark Arts + Addendum: Black. RDM sub loses the entire point of MP conservation and flexibility (not to mention the conserve MP job trait itself) for raw MP, and that doesn't mean it's superior even without access to Refresh II from a Red Mage. But hey, to each their own.
In abyssea, most White Mages do use refresh atma as some have said here, and there's chances regardless of the sub you'll run low on MP (I feel /sch WHMs last the longest, but that's me). But in a lot of cases, I'll pop Sublimation, and have it fully charged and not even need it, and the buff eventually wears off. In cases like this, it doesn't really matter what the sub is. There's uses for even Black Mage sub (okay, one use... Stun). Conserve MP was the main reason I used /BLM back in the day, but /SCH has it. I have never /BLM'ed just for Warp for example outside of easy traveling to HP when I'm moving around. You'd be surprised how many people I know use it just for Warp after an event... hello, instant warp scroll, only 10 Conquest Points DO YOU HAVE IT?! I personally could get over 30000 instant warp scrolls. That's awesome.
/minor support job rant off. That isn't meant to offend people or anything, it's just how I feel about White Mage's support job options. To each their own, and I'll stick to my view of them. :P
To the point at hand (the topic):
I completely agree that White Mage could use something unique to itself that'd offer MP restoration/conservation. We have no natural refresh without having to resort to weaponskills or support jobs. I would definitely like to see WHM get something, even Auto-Refresh if naught else. Orison Pantaloons +2 was awesome and I feel it's one of the nicest pieces of empyrean armor out there. 5% of a cure amount doesn't seem like a ton but it's more than one'd think. As an example... 1532 Cure 6 for example (something I've managed to reach) would net ~76 MP back. Say I used Light Arts and Penury, lowering the cost to 113~ MP (not even considering further conserve MP procs which are possible). I'd end up spending only 37-38 MP to cure for 1500+. That's just win.
I think the main point is that every other mage job has some form of natural refresh, and WHM is the only one that doesn't. It really doesn't make much sense. We're the main job that is supposed to keep the parties alive, but we don't get any native abilities to back ourselves up.
One could argue that 89% of the time a WHM should have another job to support them in that area, but that still doesn't change the fact that we have nothing native to us. While every other job does, and has support from subjobs and other people's main jobs on top of it.
I wouldn't say that one is needed per say, but definitely would be nice. And make more sense.
Thank you both for seeing and understanding the point I was trying to make.
Tsukino_Kaji
03-16-2011, 06:01 PM
Maybe not complainers, but I sure as hell am a whiner. I want refresh. I love my refresh atmas but there is a whole world outside of Abyssea and my atmas don't seem to work there. Every mage job in the game has some way to recover MP, except for WHM. Complainers or not, I want to know why SE has yet to give us some kind of refresh.Then sub SCH.
Wolfe
03-16-2011, 06:25 PM
Then sub SCH.
Do you completely miss the point of "Natural Refresh?" Did you even read what I wrote? I am not talking about support jobs. If that was the only issue, there would be no point in posting this thread. I already /SCH and that defines the WHM job. It does not enhance it the way it should, it defines it. Allowing WHM to cast group Stoneskin, enhances the job. Casting a spell for 50% of the MP or casting time, that enhances the job. Sublimation even helps to enhance the job. BUT, without a natural refresh, Sublimation from SCH and Refresh from RDM no longer enhance the job, they define it.
The fact that your answer to my post is "then sub SCH" is the best you can do, proves my point entirely. /SCH does not enhance the job anymore, it defines it. Without /SCH, the job would be useless because MP would be gone in seconds.
Effilil
03-16-2011, 06:38 PM
I started the game on WHM and will probably die on WHM. No one ever lets me come on anything but WHM because I am good at it (maybe I should start letting people die, I'm sure that would fix the problem).
I'm very much the same way...and I have let people die and they STILL want me as whm on everything...
also...
Dagan is Empy club ws...not all whm are going to go through all the bother to make an empy club (I'm up to that leech VNM, but can't get my clear abyssite to change..0/100 on it so far...and no one doing it on my server the last few weeks) I really only dd on solo on whm when running around doing quests, so I'm not in a huge hurry to get that club finished
Vraelia
03-16-2011, 08:45 PM
I am sorry Wolfe, I didn't mean no disrespect towards WHM. However, this should strengthen your cause, I hope:
Yes, RDMs were the first healers to be called upon in Meritpts. However, I was called (believe it or not) on WHM for Meritpts. Yes, I went as it, but it was a strain on my MP. Yes, I had BRDs in the PT. However, I didn't have any means of natural refreshing. I always panicked. I struggled. But, I did a good job, considering no one died.
So, yes a Natural Refresh for WHMs, please SE add it in for us. :)
Bigboy
03-16-2011, 09:24 PM
By disregarding the subjob options, you kind of miss the mechanic that WHM benefits most from. That being that they don't have to sub WHM, which offers next to nothing in the job trait department, but get all the useful spells of a WHM and the utility of a decent subjob.
The game is not meant to be played without a subjob. If I want to remove status ailments on my RDM, I have to sub WHM. If I sub SCH, I am constantly having to flip through the Stratagem mechanic, nerfing half my spells and lowering reaction time that is essential to a RDM. Even then, I am still gonna not have Stona, and at the moment Viruna. I get some fun utility out of a BLM sub, and even a larger mana pool with some Auto-refresh from SMN. I see obvious benefits from a /NIN sub. I also don't get any WS (like WHM does) that restores huge chunks of mana despite the RDM's intended role as a melee-mage.
As a WHM main, I get all the WHM perks and a huge list of awesome subjobs. I mean, getting convert has to be a godsend to a WHM. As a RDM, I have to either blow my 10 min cooldown on Divine seal, or cast multiple cure IVs to bring myself up to white health again.
I honestly think you underestimate the value of your subjob options, as a healing class. You could be forced to sub WHM like everyone else that wants to heal, or have all of your offensive/utility spells completely cut off when you heal like a SCH.
Radio
03-16-2011, 10:11 PM
What are whms doing nowadays that has them running out of MP and in a rage about refresh? I have a whm that is geared and I play it when necessary but the job has gotten to be so easy I'm not very passionate about it anymore, I'd rather heal on sch. Giving whm refresh I isn't a big deal to me if the demand is there. Allowing whm to learn it post level 80 wouldn't be game changing (I don't always whm but when I do I /sch). Auto refresh on the other hand is smn territory. (Yes pld has auto refresh as well, Lord knows they needed it!) The day whm gets Auto Refresh should be the day sch gets Cure V AND VI, and rdm gets -na spells without /whm or /sch. It shouldn't happen.
Alistrianna
03-17-2011, 01:02 AM
I haven't played WHM too much outside of Abyssea since I leveled it up, but when I have I've never really found the lack of 'natural' refresh to be a problem. I took the time to get the gear that gives Refresh, which gives +7 Refresh total and also made sure I got the Orison pantaloons +2 as soon as I could. Taking the time to get gear that enhanced my MP restoration has paid off more than complaining that WHM has no natural ability to get refresh. Also, I don't see how even just adding Auto Refresh would make you guys happy. On its own, its not that great. It gives 20 MP/minute. which means for it to have helped your MP abilities at all, 2 minutes and 6 seconds would have to go by just so you could get an extra Cure 3. You can rest for 18 seconds at Lv80+ and get that MP faster. So even if thats all WHM ended up getting from SE, you would still need your gear and support job abilities to enhance it so it could become worthwhile.
Ryozen
03-17-2011, 01:26 AM
WHM can get 6MP/tick refresh from gear alone (7 if you want to carry around Pachira fruit or poison potions).
inb4 "but I want to run around naked!"
And to answer the question you ask in the thread title: Because it's a non-issue.
Charismatic
03-17-2011, 02:49 AM
And to answer the question you ask in the thread title: Because it's a non-issue.
Yep. That's pretty much the gist of it. We don't have any natural refresh because we don't need any. Wouldn't matter if we had one unless it stacked with refresh and/or sublimation anyway because RDM and SCH are still the best subs if you take away their refresh abilities.
Light Arts + Strategems + Dispel (with dark arts and a stategem use, if you REALLY need a dispel) | Fast Cast + debuffs like Gravity + Convert + Dispel
So basically... without sacrificing anything, we get refresh abilities anyway. I mean, you could refuse to count subjobs, but why would you? They play into balance issues as well.
Flyinghippress
03-17-2011, 02:52 AM
WHM are NOT supposed to be a DD job, so how do they get TP? Whats more, unless you have ACTUALLY leveled your club skill, how are you going to hit the mob and GET TP? The theory behind that being a great way to get MP back is flawed, severely, which is why I left it out completely. You can not get MP back if your club skill is not leveled, you need a decent club to begin with and the best healing boost weapons are staves. Which you ALSO need to skill up if you want to be able to effectively use Spirit Taker.
A good WHM in Abyssea will have club skill leveled to proc Blue!! with Hexa Strike so this argument doesn't really hold up.
I personally never have an MP issue as WHM/RDM inside or outside of Abyssea. I used to always just /SCH before cap rose and I do still think it's a good sub but I just prefer the mindless casting of Refresh and not having to worry about a sublimation being dispelled (used to happen to me a lot).
Edit: And my best guess to answer your question is that up until the game got turned into Easy-mode there was still a need to keep people taking time to level up. Longer they take to level up the longer they play, the more money they make. The more you have to rest the more time it takes. Having a RDM or BRD in the party was always standard to make sure resting time was lowered. This forced some sense of teamwork (SE's premise for FFXI) essentially rewarding you for doing what they wanted you to do.
WHM are NOT supposed to be a DD job, so how do they get TP? Whats more, unless you have ACTUALLY leveled your club skill, how are you going to hit the mob and GET TP? The theory behind that being a great way to get MP back is flawed, severely, which is why I left it out completely. You can not get MP back if your club skill is not leveled, you need a decent club to begin with and the best healing boost weapons are staves. Which you ALSO need to skill up if you want to be able to effectively use Spirit Taker.
I know this isn't what you want to hear, but I think SE gave us Boon/Dagan ... to encourage us to get creative and open-minded. You can't melee everything, but BLM&DRK can't aspir everything. When you -CAN- take full advantage of these WS's, the returns on them are gamebreakingly good! We're talking filling your MP bar way more often than a RDM can convert, inside or outside Abyssea.
Don't get me wrong, I think it would be spiffy to see a "Panaloon Mastery" trait that gave us the Orison-Pantaloons-style cash back rewards on qualifying MP purchases (Converts x% of "Cure" amount to MP) or something.
But, you should at least try killaging before you write it off as useless or irrelevant or whatever. It's really fun and efficient, if you can adapt your playstyle. :)
Tsukino_Kaji
03-18-2011, 09:03 AM
They should instead give WHM auto regein at 50 just to spite everyone else.
Simian
03-18-2011, 09:27 AM
Wolfe - we can agree to disagree on the fact that WHM needs natural refresh, but if you are talking about "natural" as in a Job Trait, then only SMN, PLD and BLU have that. RDM gets theirs from spells and gear just like WHM's. SMN did not even get Auto Refresh 2 until level 90 and that is only 2mp/tic. SCH gets their's from a Job Ability that has a timer unlike Job Traits which are always active. RDM is the same with Convert. So in essence, it is not a natural ability. If MP Conserve was adjusted to proc more often with greater reliability, I think you might find that to be better. Or just allow WHM's to perform self Devotion, which for me is 325+mp which is slightly less than a third of my normal overall MP pool.
Lancil
03-18-2011, 06:17 PM
I don't see why whms need an auto-refresh. Higher tier cures make the mp gained from the trait almost unnoticeable. If anything, whms should get conserve mp, but that would just be redundant due to the ability to sub sch. In the long run while spamming cures you'll notice that you have a larger mp pool with conserve mp than without it; and if you are idle waiting for those few tics of mp why not rest. It's not like kneeling down will kill you. In roughly one second you can be up curing your tank without any setbacks.
Momohko
03-18-2011, 10:02 PM
* Bard: Mages Ballad (Does not even use MP naturally and they have a form of Refresh)
* Bard: Mages Ballad II (I understand, support job, fine. But they still have Refresh)
* Bard: Mages Ballad III (Really?)
The reason we have ballad is because brds are SUPPORT jobs we have the ballad for YOU whms -.- if whms would stop running away from me when i ballad them or if they would stop being so close to the damn melee yea their refresh rate wouldn't be an issue(not saying you do this but you rly wouldn't believe the ammount of mages who run from ballad or the melee who feel they need ballad with their 10 mp pool -.-). Aside from being brd for over 6 years now I am also whm and I don't run into much mp problems, while yes it would be nice to have some sort of refresh native to whm I don't feel it is a NEED. To me it would mean I would not have to be as careful when playing whm lol. I have seen a galka whm with decent gear nothing amazing have no problem with healing while I have been with plenty of hume taru or mithra whm who have the hardest time keeping people healed and keeping mp up so another thing to consider is player skill~
Upitupi
03-20-2011, 04:24 PM
They should instead give WHM auto regein at 50 just to spite everyone else.
I really like this idea. So out of left field, but still has a certain logic to it. White Mage has access to 5 weapon skills that give MP returns; 3 of which are self targeting, so you wouldn't need to even be in range, just engaged.
Now, the 2 weapon skills we would be most likely to use, Spirit Taker and Mystic Boon, does require us to get within melee range; I don't see it being any more a problem then running in to reapply buffs.
While I'm of the opinion that White Mage is not in need of "a natural form a refresh;" that's what we have sub jobs for, auto-regain sure would be a interesting option to a problem that doesn't exist.
Khajit
03-20-2011, 05:33 PM
Whm doesn't need the refresh and even if they did need it we could *gasp* just get help from a job that actually can refresh in a game based on teamwork.
Plus there's the actual refresh gear i notice alot of people don't bother getting even though half that amount a year ago was enough to incite a blood frenzied fight among every mage in sight over the drops.
Tsukino_Kaji
03-20-2011, 05:36 PM
Whm doesn't need the refresh and even if they did need it we could *gasp* just get help from a job that actually can refresh in a game based on teamwork.On the rare occasion that I do sub the affore mentioned job over SCH(Which is superior BTW.), I never remember to cast refresh on myself anyway.
Khajit
03-20-2011, 05:39 PM
I didn't mean changing sj. Been up a bit too late?(It would be a fair guess that my timezone is ahead of yours and this is really late at night for you)
Tsukino_Kaji
03-20-2011, 05:56 PM
I didn't mean changing sj. Been up a bit too late?(It would be a fair guess that my timezone is ahead of yours and this is really late at night for you)It was mearly a statement of; That if I did have refresh, it would almost never be used.
Khajit
03-20-2011, 06:02 PM
That part was kinda covered in the "even if they did need it" part of my initial statement.
Wolfe
03-20-2011, 06:08 PM
A good WHM in Abyssea will have club skill leveled to proc Blue!! with Hexa Strike so this argument doesn't really hold up.
I personally never have an MP issue as WHM/RDM inside or outside of Abyssea. I used to always just /SCH before cap rose and I do still think it's a good sub but I just prefer the mindless casting of Refresh and not having to worry about a sublimation being dispelled (used to happen to me a lot).
Edit: And my best guess to answer your question is that up until the game got turned into Easy-mode there was still a need to keep people taking time to level up. Longer they take to level up the longer they play, the more money they make. The more you have to rest the more time it takes. Having a RDM or BRD in the party was always standard to make sure resting time was lowered. This forced some sense of teamwork (SE's premise for FFXI) essentially rewarding you for doing what they wanted you to do.
Actually, it still holds up. If you have club leveled enough to proc blue, you are NOT going to melee on the mob and feed it TP. If you do, you are an idiot. You will pop a wing or have a regain atma on for TP or, heaven forbid, have a SAM feed you TP. Which leads me right back to where I was, HOW ARE YOU GOING TO GET MP?
If all you are doing is proc'ing blue, how do you get MP back? Mystic Boon, right? Oh, wait, that's right, you don't use it because you are just there to proc blue. BUT, MP in Abyssea is not an issue. I am talking about outside Abyssea (that still exists, right?). Even though not many people like to do stuff outside Abyssea, there are still some dedicated players that want to complete the rest of the game.
Anyway, you are missing the point of this thread. WHM have no natural refresh and never have. Before and after Abyssea, there is STILL no refresh. Why have they still not addressed the issue? Pre-level 80 increase, you could truly see how screwed WHM got. Now you can finally see that they are "trying" to fix WHM because they realize that they have no way to get MP back, save for lolddwhm'ing. Everyone knows that you can grab a support job and get some kind of MP recovery. But I want to know why WHM by itself can not refresh. If WHM could get some form of natural refresh, it would be great to see what you could do with different support jobs. Because as of right now, all WHM gets to sub is RDM for convert and refresh, SCH for sublimation and light arts, and BLM if you are really bored and want Warp II access. I suppose you could sub SMN for avatars for S&G's.
And the point of "easy mode" for FFXI was that they were trying to break the game so that people would hate it and switch over to FFXIV. Thus why they didn't release just another 5 levels, they are releasing everything they have been holding back for their "rainy day." But after realizing that FFXIV bombed so hardcore, now they have to work on making FFXI NOT suck and are having a hell of a time doing it. I'm still waiting for them to release Rank 15, it's already in the data files, and has been for years.
Wolfe
03-20-2011, 06:12 PM
I don't see why whms need an auto-refresh. Higher tier cures make the mp gained from the trait almost unnoticeable. If anything, whms should get conserve mp, but that would just be redundant due to the ability to sub sch. In the long run while spamming cures you'll notice that you have a larger mp pool with conserve mp than without it; and if you are idle waiting for those few tics of mp why not rest. It's not like kneeling down will kill you. In roughly one second you can be up curing your tank without any setbacks.
Yeah, kneeling down may not kill you, but the delay it takes to drop to a knee, AS your tank gets hit, now you have to try desperately to stand up and get a cure off before they die. It may not kill you, it sure as hell can kill your tank in a matter of seconds. I would call that a setback.
Wolfe
03-20-2011, 06:17 PM
The reason we have ballad is because brds are SUPPORT jobs we have the ballad for YOU whms -.- if whms would stop running away from me when i ballad them or if they would stop being so close to the damn melee yea their refresh rate wouldn't be an issue(not saying you do this but you rly wouldn't believe the ammount of mages who run from ballad or the melee who feel they need ballad with their 10 mp pool -.-). Aside from being brd for over 6 years now I am also whm and I don't run into much mp problems, while yes it would be nice to have some sort of refresh native to whm I don't feel it is a NEED. To me it would mean I would not have to be as careful when playing whm lol. I have seen a galka whm with decent gear nothing amazing have no problem with healing while I have been with plenty of hume taru or mithra whm who have the hardest time keeping people healed and keeping mp up so another thing to consider is player skill~
Yes, I understand BRD is a support job, I stated that too. I was also using it to prove a point. DNC has a refresh dance as well. So does COR.
And while the Galka did not have a problem with MP, did you know that a Galka also has stronger cures than any other race? That does play a big factor.
I know player skill is something to consider, I have seen 3 WHM in an alliance run out of MP and get a full wipe. I came in (LS event that I arrived late to), told the 3 WHM to go job change and I was able to keep everyone alive without any issues what-so-ever. I am not trying to brag, but the 3 WHM's were pretty awful. Player skill can make or break a job.
Wolfe
03-20-2011, 06:20 PM
Wolfe - we can agree to disagree on the fact that WHM needs natural refresh, but if you are talking about "natural" as in a Job Trait, then only SMN, PLD and BLU have that. RDM gets theirs from spells and gear just like WHM's. SMN did not even get Auto Refresh 2 until level 90 and that is only 2mp/tic. SCH gets their's from a Job Ability that has a timer unlike Job Traits which are always active. RDM is the same with Convert. So in essence, it is not a natural ability. If MP Conserve was adjusted to proc more often with greater reliability, I think you might find that to be better. Or just allow WHM's to perform self Devotion, which for me is 325+mp which is slightly less than a third of my normal overall MP pool.
"Natural" means the job by itself with no subjob or other item/equipment. Not just job trait, a spell or job ability would work as well.
Tsukino_Kaji
03-20-2011, 06:20 PM
Yeah, kneeling down may not kill you, but the delay it takes to drop to a knee, AS your tank gets hit, now you have to try desperately to stand up and get a cure off before they die. It may not kill you, it sure as hell can kill your tank in a matter of seconds. I would call that a setback.This has been a non-issue for around 9 years. It's all part of the glorious micro management that is WHM.
Wolfe
03-20-2011, 06:30 PM
I know this isn't what you want to hear, but I think SE gave us Boon/Dagan ... to encourage us to get creative and open-minded. You can't melee everything, but BLM&DRK can't aspir everything. When you -CAN- take full advantage of these WS's, the returns on them are gamebreakingly good! We're talking filling your MP bar way more often than a RDM can convert, inside or outside Abyssea.
Don't get me wrong, I think it would be spiffy to see a "Panaloon Mastery" trait that gave us the Orison-Pantaloons-style cash back rewards on qualifying MP purchases (Converts x% of "Cure" amount to MP) or something.
But, you should at least try killaging before you write it off as useless or irrelevant or whatever. It's really fun and efficient, if you can adapt your playstyle. :)
I am not writing it off as useless or irrelevant, WHM are squishy jobs and not meant to DD. That does not mean that you can not DD. I have a friend that is an amazing DDWHM, him and another friend used to run around as RDM & WHM and duo stuff all the time, the WHM was the tank and DD (I know, when you look at the jobs you kind of wonder why the RDM was not the DD). He was a great DDWHM and I am actually working on gearing a DDWHM myself, just because it is fun. WHM will never be able to put out the kind of damage that the real DD jobs can, but it is still fun.
But I still stand by my previous statement, WHM need a natural refresh. They do not have one and I believe that if they did, the job would have so many other possibilities. I know I could use a few WS to recover MP, but if you are going DDWHM, you are trading off a lot of damage for a chance to recover some MP and even then, not that much. If you choose the right mob, yeah you can refill your MP nicely. But it is a crap shoot that is not worth the effort when you can just get a friend to kill the mob in a 1/10th of the time. And unless you have your club skill capped (or close to), you are not going to put out any damage and fighting mobs is going to be insanely slow.
I have a pretty decently geared DDWHM and even a DRG75 with gimp gear can out DD me and usually kill at least 3 times the mobs (tested with a few lolafdrg75). Yes, WHM can DD and recover MP. But in the amount of time that it takes to kill a mob, you might as well just quit.
Khajit
03-21-2011, 12:12 AM
Get this Anti DD whm sacrilege out of here. You obviously just suck at it if you cant outDDanything as whm if this point in the game.
Using melee as an MP recovery method means you're in "hybrid mode" (not trying to outdamage anyone). Any damage you do is just an added bonus, so don't worry about that. Besides, it's not the Booning that slows your damage potential, it's the constant casting! The fact that you're doing your duties, automatically means you're efficient ... damage is a bonus.
Boon should give you enough MP to keep going (speaking from experience, and even pre-relic), but if you want something guaranteed, use Dagan. It's like Starlight/Moonlight (can't miss, self-target), but gives way more MP! A little swapping should give you at least 250mp (every time!).
I have a pretty decently geared DDWHM and even a DRG75 with gimp gear can out DD me and usually kill at least 3 times the mobs (tested with a few lolafdrg75). Yes, WHM can DD and recover MP. But in the amount of time that it takes to kill a mob, you might as well just quit.
We must play differently, because I never had that much trouble out-damaging gimpy DD's, even before relic or KC. :p
However, I'm not saying everyone should DD on WHM ... it's an uphill battle and a hobby for masochists. No, I'm saying you can melee in a lot of cases (don't compete) just to get MP back, and it's very efficient!
Disclaimer: Most of my experience is pre-abyssea, but you seemed more interested in "outside-abyssea" applications anyway, so I think we're okay there.
Remember: I compared it to Aspir. Just like BLM&DRK, we can't always do this for our MP. :rolleyes:
Get this Anti DD whm sacrilege out of here. You obviously just suck at it if you cant outDDanything as whm if this point in the game.
<3
Ahtos
03-21-2011, 01:43 AM
Most WHM's should learn how to conserve MP in the first place b4 QQ about auto-refesh. DRK and BLM got no auto-refresh too and aspir as refresh is a joke cuz recast timer, possible resist and most important thing: not every mob got a MP pool. Sure it would be nice if every mage got auto-refresh but it isn´t really necessary.
Alkimi
03-21-2011, 02:30 AM
I have a pretty decently geared DDWHM and even a DRG75 with gimp gear can out DD me and usually kill at least 3 times the mobs (tested with a few lolafdrg75). Yes, WHM can DD and recover MP. But in the amount of time that it takes to kill a mob, you might as well just quit.
Can DRG75 consistently pull off 2-4k WS and get to 100% TP in 3-4 attack rounds? I know it's not useful for everything (The TP spam from KC pretty much probably does more harm than good on NMs) but in xp alliances especially it's a lot of fun and bar a few people with empyrean weapons I've never been beaten on WHM even when main healing and keeping all the DDs hasted.
Retsujo
03-21-2011, 07:20 AM
hMP gear is where it's at. Where the hell are my hMP Dark Staff Trials, SE?
I don't understand why the guy thinks Cure VI is useless. It heals a crap ton, has maybe Cure III enmity, and while Solace is up can apply up to a 400HP Stoneskin or so.
Aaralyn
03-21-2011, 09:21 AM
If I tried to DD to get MP back in any of the linkshells I've been in, I'd either be kicked, or I'd be someone who would have to sit out. Abyssea or no.
And again, I haven't seen anywhere where the OP has said that they are having difficulty healing by not knowing how to conserve MP. Just the straight fact that unless under unusual circumstances, we have no natural refresh to us. DD WHM isn't natural. Sure, we have the abilities, but the general accepted/expected WHM will get "WTF r u doin'??" as a response to pulling out a club or staff to get MP back. BLM and RDMs don't get a WTF when they cast aspir or refresh.
Wolfe
03-21-2011, 03:43 PM
If I tried to DD to get MP back in any of the linkshells I've been in, I'd either be kicked, or I'd be someone who would have to sit out. Abyssea or no.
And again, I haven't seen anywhere where the OP has said that they are having difficulty healing by not knowing how to conserve MP. Just the straight fact that unless under unusual circumstances, we have no natural refresh to us. DD WHM isn't natural. Sure, we have the abilities, but the general accepted/expected WHM will get "WTF r u doin'??" as a response to pulling out a club or staff to get MP back. BLM and RDMs don't get a WTF when they cast aspir or refresh.
Thank you for actually reading the original post. It seems like everyone just wants to bitch without paying any attention. I never said WHM can't get MP back. I said, WHM has no refresh and I want to know why.
Nacht
03-21-2011, 04:33 PM
I don't understand why the guy thinks Cure VI is useless. It heals a crap ton, has maybe Cure III enmity, and while Solace is up can apply up to a 400HP Stoneskin or so.
I don't know either. It does have a bad hp:mp ratio compared to cure5, but it's great having a 2nd big cure to alternate with cure5.
Also my opinion is that the devs understood the lack of refresh, and decided that the empyrean legs were a unique way for whms to conserve their mp, instead of giving them a generic auto-refresh.
Momotarotaru
03-21-2011, 08:43 PM
I play WHM and I never have problem with MP (Maybe I am a tarutaru) so I don't see any important to give WHM Refresh JT.
You just need to manage your MP and Lately in my opinion SE give a lot to make WHM play easier and better.
This is How Game is fun and challenge...give too much MP make game too easy.
Healer .... Too much MP then just spam cure and cure no point for other jobs to support WHM.
It likes your party almost immortal. (then it's not fun)
Less MP mean you need to control fight timing and think harder for whole party.
a lot of MP you just la la la la la.... (less fun)
Giving MP to WHM it's different compare to giving MP to other jobs. Because WHM is the best job to control dead or alive of PC.
This is my point of view.
Ganukay
03-21-2011, 11:50 PM
WHM doesn't have a natural refresh capability because it is not needed. I'm with everyone else that said it, if you're having MP problems, you're doing your job wrong.
Thank you for actually reading the original post. It seems like everyone just wants to bitch without paying any attention. I never said WHM can't get MP back. I said, WHM has no refresh and I want to know why.
I think we're all trying to tell you why...
- We make MP last through conservation / management.
- We can achieve 50% cure potency with 35% stoneskin.
- We have WS's that produce large amounts of MP.
- We have access to most of the things you listed via support job: Convert, Refresh, Auto-Refresh, Sublimation, Aspir, etc.
- We can get up to 7mp/tick refresh from gear.
- We can use HMP to rest 60+ per tick (or more?).
You wanted responses from people who "ACTUALLY play WHM" - and you got us! I've been playing for 7 years, both back-line WHM and front-line WHM, and I love it to pieces!
Do I want another form of refresh to be ours, naturally? YES!
But I don't think you're going to get very many people joining a "WHM NEEDS FRESHES" army, because /SCH leveled the playing field for us ~3 years ago, allowing efficient back-line duties. Then, we got Mystic Boon ~2 years ago, allowing efficient front-line duties (in some cases) and easier soloing. Since then, we have overtaken RDM and others by maintaining unique access to the BigMcLargeHuge cures, while MP became basically unlimited.
When the next wave of updates changes things, we might need some adjustments to remain balanced, but until then I think the polls have shown we're pretty happy. And our happiness is another reason why. :)
Simian
03-22-2011, 08:28 AM
Cure VI carries an enmity of equivalent value to Cure IV and Esuna, also the MP cost of Cure VI is more than a V and a III put together and I can achieve more cure back to backing those spells than I can from a non macro'd VI. 250 mp cost makes it out of line with the rest of the cures. Cure V is 135 mp. Reduce the MP cost to like 175 or 180 and then it becomes valuable. Only place I ever use VI is in Abyssea where I am not as conscious of my MP drain as I am outside Abyssea.
Wolfe
03-22-2011, 02:10 PM
I don't know either. It does have a bad hp:mp ratio compared to cure5, but it's great having a 2nd big cure to alternate with cure5.
Also my opinion is that the devs understood the lack of refresh, and decided that the empyrean legs were a unique way for whms to conserve their mp, instead of giving them a generic auto-refresh.
Cure VI outside of Abyssea is garbage. The only reason you can safely rely on Cure VI is because of refresh atmas in Abyssea. The MP:HP ratio is horrendous.
And I can see how the EMP pants +2 can be considered a unique way to recover/save MP without directly giving WHM refresh. But, I am stubborn and pigheaded and still want WHM refresh. Maximum Stoneskin amount from an Afflatus Solace cure is 300. Stoneskin value is 25% of cure amount, calculated before hitting the target. But, looking at the base Cure VI MP versus amount cured, the spell is inefficient.
Nacht
03-22-2011, 02:19 PM
Cure VI outside of Abyssea is garbage. The only reason you can safely rely on Cure VI is because of refresh atmas in Abyssea. The MP:HP ratio is horrendous.
It's not much worse than cure4. It's just that cure5 has such a good hp:mp ratio. And no, it doesn't have a use outside abyssea.
Tsukino_Kaji
03-22-2011, 02:42 PM
Cure VI outside of Abyssea is garbage. The only reason you can safely rely on Cure VI is because of refresh atmas in Abyssea. The MP:HP ratio is horrendous.Are you serious? How much do you play WHM outside of abyssea? Cure VI has been a staple since it came out.
araamilofasura
03-22-2011, 03:06 PM
And while the Galka did not have a problem with MP, did you know that a Galka also has stronger cures than any other race? That does play a big factor.
.
Just going to state that Elvaans, not Galka, have the highest cures.
Daniel_Hatcher
03-22-2011, 05:30 PM
Let's be realistic here.
Bard - Is an enhancer, of course they get a refresh.
Paladin - Fights the front lines of battle so can't /heal
Summoner - Goes through ridiculous MP and can't heal with an Avatar out.
Dancer - Aspir Samba I and II is for the party for jobs like PLD, RDM, BLU, DRK etcetera to keep their MP up.
Red Mage - Pretty much non-existent gear for auto-refresh as opposed to WHM, and intended for use also shouldn't /heal.
Blue Mage - Their spells have crazy MP cost and get this, can't /heal in battle as well
Black Mage - Aspir and Aspir II are Dark moves, plus their spells are crazy expensive and are likely to grab the hate after a big nuke so again, for the time being unable to heal.
Corsair - Enhancer, end off. No MP so they get it only to enhance.
Scholar - Always a bit over-powered, the sublimation upgrade was OTT.
then it's White Mage - Cure V and VI are unlikely to take the hate, they have a massive amount of equipment with auto-refresh which should always be worn when not casting, gear to get MP back from cures, and are easily able to /heal when the need arises.
The refresh on most jobs are easily balanced out.
jimmie
03-22-2011, 05:49 PM
I think I understand what Wolfe is saying and I agree with him. WHM hasn't recieved any great attributes in comparison to many of the other jobs, I don't think he's arguing the subjob enhancements. What I see is that Spells and Attributes that could normally fall under a healer's category were effectively disbursed to a number of new jobs created by the updates, rendering WHM relatively non-essential in the game. I can't believe that any WHM wouldn't want Auto-Refresh, or Hastega for that matter. Other jobs recieved them, why not the basic healer? ...From what I read, that's all that Wolfe asked, and all he got back was how wonderful you all are.
Daniel_Hatcher
03-22-2011, 06:05 PM
WHM needs Hatega, not auto-refresh. Only two jobs got that, the ones that actually need it.
Septimus
03-22-2011, 06:30 PM
No job is supposed to have everything, a WHM is supposed to get Refresh from a BRD, RDM, or COR that is in the party. If you don't have one of those, it is the fault of the party designer, not Square-Enix.
Retsujo
03-22-2011, 08:03 PM
Let's not bring an argument from 2003 into this. Party setup isn't a factor in this topic, really.
Wolfe
03-22-2011, 08:15 PM
I think I understand what Wolfe is saying and I agree with him. WHM hasn't recieved any great attributes in comparison to many of the other jobs, I don't think he's arguing the subjob enhancements. What I see is that Spells and Attributes that could normally fall under a healer's category were effectively disbursed to a number of new jobs created by the updates, rendering WHM relatively non-essential in the game. I can't believe that any WHM wouldn't want Auto-Refresh, or Hastega for that matter. Other jobs recieved them, why not the basic healer? ...From what I read, that's all that Wolfe asked, and all he got back was how wonderful you all are.
Thank you for seeing my point. I find it to be amazing that there are so few people who actually get what I was saying. All they see is, "screw WHM refresh, you don't need it."
Wolfe
03-22-2011, 08:25 PM
Let's be realistic here.
Bard - Is an enhancer, of course they get a refresh.
Paladin - Fights the front lines of battle so can't /heal
Summoner - Goes through ridiculous MP and can't heal with an Avatar out.
Dancer - Aspir Samba I and II is for the party for jobs like PLD, RDM, BLU, DRK etcetera to keep their MP up.
Red Mage - Pretty much non-existent gear for auto-refresh as opposed to WHM, and intended for use also shouldn't /heal.
Blue Mage - Their spells have crazy MP cost and get this, can't /heal in battle as well
Black Mage - Aspir and Aspir II are Dark moves, plus their spells are crazy expensive and are likely to grab the hate after a big nuke so again, for the time being unable to heal.
Corsair - Enhancer, end off. No MP so they get it only to enhance.
Scholar - Always a bit over-powered, the sublimation upgrade was OTT.
then it's White Mage - Cure V and VI are unlikely to take the hate, they have a massive amount of equipment with auto-refresh which should always be worn when not casting, gear to get MP back from cures, and are easily able to /heal when the need arises.
The refresh on most jobs are easily balanced out.
Okay, I'll go with your layout and keep it going.
Bard ~ I know they are a support job, I stated that, and was using it to prove a point.
Paladin ~ If Paladin "can't" heal, why do they have the spell?
Summoner ~ I understand that, it would be broken if they could heal with their avatar out. Still using them to prove my point.
Dancer ~ Yes, it is for other melee jobs that use MP. Again, I stated that to help prove a point. Dancers never use it, because there are more useful dances that people would rather have active. So even though they have it, it is really rather useless.
Red Mage ~ In my personal experience, incredibly over powered but that is neither here nor there and best kept to a different thread.
Blue Mage ~ Again, I understand it is a mage job and believe it or not, most mage jobs go through their MP rather quickly.
Black Mage ~ Not going to repeat myself again.
Corsair ~ Already stated that it is a buffer job, not worth including, again.
Scholar ~ Sublimation was insanely overpowered, but how many people play SCH? Not many, it is one of the least popular jobs, although I have no idea why.
And obviously you did not read the part where I said NATURAL refresh ability, which excludes equipment and support jobs. Every job listed can recover MP naturally, except for WHM. If you pay attention, you can see, it is not as "balanced" as you would like to believe.
Wolfe
03-22-2011, 08:28 PM
Let's not bring an argument from 2003 into this. Party setup isn't a factor in this topic, really.
No, it's not. If I was making a point about party setups, I would have posted that originally. Why do people keep trying to prove their point by ignoring what I said in the initial post?
"You can get refresh with armor."
"You want refresh? /RDM"
"Just go DD on your WHM and WS for more MP."
"You want refresh, get it from someone else in the party."
No, no, no, and no. Read the original post people, NATURAL REFRESH!
Daniel_Hatcher
03-22-2011, 08:31 PM
I did say /heal, not heal as in cast Cure.
WHM has Clear Mind V, they /heal as well as SCH, BLM, and SMN when using /heal which they are able to as they don't need to be in the front lines of battle.
This is why PLD and SMN do get auto-refresh, as they can't heal, and WHM is a curer so doesn't have access to spells like Aspir and Refresh as that would then make WHM severely over-powered.
Every job must have it's downfall, otherwise what is the point of multiple jobs, they'd just have one DD and one MAGE. Admittedly as FFXI stands now it does focus on having one DD and one MAGE... MNK & WHM.
Wolfe
03-22-2011, 08:44 PM
I think we're all trying to tell you why...
- We make MP last through conservation / management.
- We can achieve 50% cure potency with 35% stoneskin.
- We have WS's that produce large amounts of MP.
- We have access to most of the things you listed via support job: Convert, Refresh, Auto-Refresh, Sublimation, Aspir, etc.
- We can get up to 7mp/tick refresh from gear.
- We can use HMP to rest 60+ per tick (or more?).
You wanted responses from people who "ACTUALLY play WHM" - and you got us! I've been playing for 7 years, both back-line WHM and front-line WHM, and I love it to pieces!
Do I want another form of refresh to be ours, naturally? YES!
But I don't think you're going to get very many people joining a "WHM NEEDS FRESHES" army, because /SCH leveled the playing field for us ~3 years ago, allowing efficient back-line duties. Then, we got Mystic Boon ~2 years ago, allowing efficient front-line duties (in some cases) and easier soloing. Since then, we have overtaken RDM and others by maintaining unique access to the BigMcLargeHuge cures, while MP became basically unlimited.
When the next wave of updates changes things, we might need some adjustments to remain balanced, but until then I think the polls have shown we're pretty happy. And our happiness is another reason why. :)
Okay, again, you are not paying attention. Natural Refresh. WithOUT the use of support jobs or armor.
- We make MP last through conservation / management. ~ Based off your support job/armor. Wrong.
- We can achieve 50% cure potency with 35% stoneskin. ~ Based off your support job/armor. Wrong.
- We have WS's that produce large amounts of MP. ~ Based off your weapon and whether or not you hit, unlike Sublimation, Refresh, Convert, Light Arts, all of which are 100% and never miss. Wrong.
- We have access to most of the things you listed via support job: Convert, Refresh, Auto-Refresh, Sublimation, Aspir, etc. ~ Are you paying attention? NATURAL! Wrong.
- We can get up to 7mp/tick refresh from gear. ~ Based off your armor. Wrong.
- We can use HMP to rest 60+ per tick (or more?). ~ Based off your armor. Wrong.
Yeah, great job defeating me except for the part where you FAILED! Read the post. Natural. Refresh. WHM have none.
I have been playing this game since March 14, 2005. I have tanked on the job and done a damn good job (because my THF friend thought it would be funny to Trick Attack onto me). The one thing that has always remained is, why doesn't WHM have some kind of natural refresh? I also want to know why Mithra can eat raw fish and Galka can eat raw meat, but no other race in the game has any kind of race specific ability. I'm not expecting people to rally with me and demand WHM get refresh. I'm waiting for someone to provide some REAL evidence to state why WHM NEVER got refresh to begin with. There are plenty of things in the game that an be explained if you look for it. Why does RDM have Divine Magic when they have no Divine based spells? Because Dia used to be Divine based. Why does DRG have two 2 hour job abilities (listed in the data files)? Because "Call Wyvern" used to be considered their 2 hour ability and it is also why they never had to reprogram anything to prevent the ability from showing up when you /DRG. Here's another one for you, why does Rank 15 exist in the data files, but we can only get to Rank 10?
This is another one of those questions that is left unanswered by Square Enix and I want an answer. Unless someone can provide REAL evidence for why they never got it (like /DRG Call Wyvern), I am going to keep at it and demanding an answer. It may never come, or I may get a GM to reply shortly after posting this. I won't be happy until I can get a definite answer.
Wolfe
03-22-2011, 08:49 PM
I did say /heal, not heal as in cast Cure.
WHM has Clear Mind V, they /heal as well as SCH, BLM, and SMN when using /heal which they are able to as they don't need to be in the front lines of battle.
This is why PLD and SMN do get auto-refresh, as they can't heal, and WHM is a curer so doesn't have access to spells like Aspir and Refresh as that would then make WHM severely over-powered.
Every job must have it's downfall, otherwise what is the point of multiple jobs, they'd just have one DD and one MAGE. Admittedly as FFXI stands now it does focus on having one DD and one MAGE... MNK & WHM.
So, according to your logic, SMN is over-powered because,
Clear Mind V:
Summoner Level 70
Black Mage Level 75
Scholar Level 76
White Mage Level 80
Take a look. White Mage gets Clear Mind V last out of all the jobs, before level 76-80 they weren't even considered. Black Mage DOES have access to spells like Aspir and Aspir II, so again, that makes BLM over-powered, just like Summoner.
I do agree that MNK & WHM can run just about everything duo without anyone else. I know this for a fact because my buddy (MNK) and I (WHM) do just that.
Alkimi
03-22-2011, 09:51 PM
Okay, again, you are not paying attention. Natural Refresh. WithOUT the use of support jobs or armor.
I won't be happy until I can get a definite answer.
Ok fine, let's say SE give you a 2/tick auto-refresh on WHM. Hell, let's make it 3/tick.
If you were running out of MP before then 3/tick auto-refresh (60MP a minute) is not going to save you. You'll still run out of MP. Some of the best WHMs have posted already saying it's not needed but for some reason you continue posting.
You're not going to get your 'definite answer'.
Daniel_Hatcher
03-22-2011, 10:02 PM
So, according to your logic, SMN is over-powered because,
Clear Mind V:
Summoner Level 70
Black Mage Level 75
Scholar Level 76
White Mage Level 80
Take a look. White Mage gets Clear Mind V last out of all the jobs, before level 76-80 they weren't even considered. Black Mage DOES have access to spells like Aspir and Aspir II, so again, that makes BLM over-powered, just like Summoner.
I do agree that MNK & WHM can run just about everything duo without anyone else. I know this for a fact because my buddy (MNK) and I (WHM) do just that.
No, they are not.
Lord almighty. Summoner gets auto-refresh because they can't rest/heal like WHM can.
Whether they got Clear Mind V before the cap or not is irrelevant, as they have it now, and before that they'd have had IV so still would heal a lot of MP, and they'd have the time to rest/heal.
Lowman you can rest/heal, and in a party situation you'd have a RDM, BRD or COR giving you Refresh so there is no need whatsoever to NOT include that and equipment, unless you suddenly want to WHM naked.
WHM does not need auto-refresh or a method to give it to themselves when whether you like it or not, they have subjobs to do it. You're never going to be "whm/no subjob" EVER. So taking a subjob out of the equation is like taking job abilities, or traits out, only difference is outside of some occasions NOTHING can remove subjobs, like amnesia can remove abilities.
You genuinely need to stop the Natural crap, who the hell cares, you're going to have a subjob, and you're going to have equipment. This is how the game works, RDM gets Refresh I and II, and have to pay/hunt to learn it, like you pay to use equipment. By that logic RDM doesn't get Refresh "naturally." So they therefore should as well.
Simian
03-22-2011, 10:22 PM
Ok Wolfe,
WHM has no natural refresh ability according to your definition...though our definitions of what "natural" is differs a bit....
But the question has now become, "Do you feel they need it?" or has this been a long exercise of overstating the obvious?
koukennin
03-22-2011, 10:37 PM
I don't understand your mentality about this, Wolfe. All you're saying is that you want natural refresh because other jobs have it. Anytime someone says "hey, this is why WHM doesn't have it", you tell them they're wrong. Why can't you just accept WHM doesn't have natural refresh just because it doesn't have natural refresh. It's like if I was crying about DRG not having natural refresh or sTP trait. That's just the way the job is. If you're just gonna ignore the people who try to explain why they don't have/need it, why did you bother posting this?
Volkai
03-22-2011, 10:47 PM
White Mage is a team player by design. Rely on your team for MP.
A White Mage that does not need to rely on others for MP is a White Mage that is duoing stuff with a Monk instead of taking part in full-party or alliance activities.
Okay, again, you are not paying attention.
Wrong.
Wrong.
Wrong.
Are you paying attention? NATURAL! Wrong.
Wrong.
Wrong.
you FAILED! Read the post.
I feel like I gently handed you a plate of toast, and you took a bite expecting grape jelly, but it was strawberry jam, and after all your yelling I had to wipe bread crumbs off my face. Wow. Tic tac?
So when considering one method of MP recovery (natural refresh)...
...all other methods of MP recovery are irrelevant.
Also, gear is irrelevant. And support jobs are irrelevant.
...what game are we talking about? What's going on here?
I may get a GM to reply shortly after posting this.
I hope he asks you to be more polite, I think your tone is unnecessarily harsh.
(...see quote at top of this post...) :(
Ganukay
03-23-2011, 01:02 AM
So, auto-refresh job trait is the only refresh that counts as natural? Gear for white mage isn't natural? We're given gear and subjobs for a reason. Unless you like to main heal as whm/thf with no gear on, your MP pool shouldn't be a problem inside or outside of abyssea. Yes, auto-refresh would be nice, but it's not necessary.
Nahal
03-23-2011, 03:15 AM
a natural refresh is irrelavent since a whm will always have one of the other options, and unless you're having MAJOR problems with WHM maat, the only time i can think of you have to go without a sub, unless you're a crazy whm determinedly main healing /nin with no club or staff skill (or refusing to use MP restoring WSs) and with no MP restoring gear whatsoever with no bard, corsair or red mage plus have no fresh drinks of any kind, no AF3+1 or 2 pants not having any refresh atmas, or if outside abyssea no sanction fresh buff, oh AND there's an AoE damage aura of some kind preventing you from healing as well, the lack of a natural refresh trait is nothing. on the other hand should you find yourself in that situation, then yes, understandably having no natural MP restoring ability is a serious problem.
frankly if you ever find yourself in that situation you should ask, how the hell did this happen?
Aaralyn
03-23-2011, 05:44 AM
I still don't see him saying "I'm having trouble managing MP, give WHM auto refresh". No, it isn't needed. I don't think I've seen him say that, either. All I've seen him ask is why WHM is the only one that doesn't have it. Other jobs that have it don't have to rely on their support jobs or gear, as WHM does.
Rya made a good point with af3 pants. But that is still gear.
BLM gets aspir, aspir II, their conserve mp trait, clear mind V
SMN gets auto refresh, elemental siphon, blood boon, clear mind V
RDM gets refresh, refresh II (yes, I know they don't stack), and convert
SCH get sublimation, penury, light arts, and clear mind V
BLU.. I honestly don't know enough about the job, so I may be wrong. But I think it's possible to equip the spells that give auto refresh along with something like MP kiss. I don't know.
Then add subjobs to those jobs. And refresh gear.
Looking at it that way is what makes me wonder why WHM doesn't get it. Does that mean I have trouble with MP? No.
jimmie
03-23-2011, 05:58 AM
I think we're all trying to tell you why...
- We make MP last through conservation / management.
- We can achieve 50% cure potency with 35% stoneskin.
- We have WS's that produce large amounts of MP.
- We have access to most of the things you listed via support job: Convert, Refresh, Auto-Refresh, Sublimation, Aspir, etc.
- We can get up to 7mp/tick refresh from gear.
- We can use HMP to rest 60+ per tick (or more?).
You wanted responses from people who "ACTUALLY play WHM" - and you got us! I've been playing for 7 years, both back-line WHM and front-line WHM, and I love it to pieces!
Do I want another form of refresh to be ours, naturally? YES!
But I don't think you're going to get very many people joining a "WHM NEEDS FRESHES" army, because /SCH leveled the playing field for us ~3 years ago, allowing efficient back-line duties. Then, we got Mystic Boon ~2 years ago, allowing efficient front-line duties (in some cases) and easier soloing. Since then, we have overtaken RDM and others by maintaining unique access to the BigMcLargeHuge cures, while MP became basically unlimited.
When the next wave of updates changes things, we might need some adjustments to remain balanced, but until then I think the polls have shown we're pretty happy. And our happiness is another reason why. :)
lol...by this logic, no one jobs needs refresh...RDM has covert and he's mainly an enfeebler, SMN has an ungodly amount of mp, Pld is a tank (why would he need light magic? let the whm do it because it's a team effort), BLU has ALOT of everything else, etc. They can get everything else thjey want w/ subjob. So, just let the WHM cure and since it's a team effort, the the WHM can cast Devotion every 15 to 20 min. (kinda like refresh...for someone else) So Wolfe Auto-Refresh for WHM...but hey, u can kneel. Sorry lol
Alkimi
03-23-2011, 06:30 AM
All those jobs need refresh more than WHM does.
BLU and PLD both generally /NIN so they don't gain anything from support jobs.
SMN have avatars constantly draining their MP.
RDM have to spend 88MP to cure for 500HP while WHMs can cure more than double that for 67-70 MP.
jimmie
03-23-2011, 07:32 AM
Ok, I don't really disagree that all those jobs need refresh. I respect all their capabilities...and I apologize for the sarcasm but the point is: "Why can't SE give WHM an auto-refresh?" Whether they need it or not is not the issue. When I go into Abyssea, I get it thru atmas and cruor enhancements. When we fight the bosses, believe me, I need it. Conserve mp? I"ve been known to overkill but when that tank is in the red, try telling him he can have a cure3 only....not to mention bar-spells, enhancements (always in demand), paralyna, stona, and the divine spells....all easily handled in abyssea with the refresh enhancements. Soooo...ya...it would be nice to have it in other areas too. After all, WHM is a mage too. But what I hear everyone else saying is that we can achieve this with gear and subjobs which is true but there's a reason why other jobs have curing abilities without subbing WHM...I think it should be visa-versa. alas...SE makes the decisions and doesn't feel like WHM needs much to support themselves and I'll accept that because I love my WHM lol. Who knows, maybe there are no WHM in the dev group so they forget us....If you all want to think of me as incompetant or stupid, that's cool because I believe I only have to please myself
Daniel_Hatcher
03-23-2011, 07:37 AM
Then by that logic may as well give auto-refresh to EVERY mage job.
As for forgetting WHM, you're joking right? How have WHM been forgotten? I can name at the minimum two jobs that have been forgotten, but I can assure you one is not WHM.
Hiroshiko
03-23-2011, 07:51 AM
I'm pretty sure most of the posters understand where the OP is coming from. It's obvious that WHM doesn't have any form of "natural" MP restoration/conversation like the other mages jobs and has been given the lowest tier of Clear Mind. However, there is no clear cut answer to the "why" question that we as the playerbase can give. Especially not one that will please the OP given his criteria. Over the years, the development team has made a lot of arbitrary decisions that don't make sense to the playerbase. But we adapt strategies from what we have at our disposal.
Several posters have come forward and offered their input on the issue. Not everyone has adhered to the OPs strict conditions, and they have brought up good points. "Naturally," WHM has a B+ in club skill (which is the 2nd highest of all jobs with club skill.) Yes, I know that requires gear and that it's not a very practical form of MP restoration, but it is still a tool nonetheless. Just like Aspir is a tool despite not having a use on a large amount of mobs. However, I agree that it really makes no sense that WHM has next to nothing outside of melee and lower tier Clear Mind.
The point many have tried to make though is that this isn't as much of a problem inside or outside of Abyssea nowadays because we do have subjobs, gear, and everything else that the OP has chosen to negate as part of his argument. You even listed jobs that wouldn't have a use for MP restoration (i.e. BRD and COR) outside of their main function of being support jobs or to power their subjobs. I know Wolfe only mentioned them as a means for an argument that WHM has nothing, but I honestly don't see the problem with that specific scenario. It really just shows that we have options to overcome this design flaw (if you can call it that.) And anyways as Alkimi pointed out, even if we had an Auto-Refresh trait, would we really be that much better off? Or would it just placate you since we'd have something? Other than a definitive answer that nobody but the design team can adequately answer, what is it that you want that we can't get from subjobs, gear, etc.?
I wouldn't shun a trait or something that provides WHM with its own form of MP restoration/conservation. Something (anything...) would be nice, but really just icing on the cake at this point. From that point, I understand the argument Wolfe is trying to make. What I don't see is why this thread is so hostile to people who "aren't reading" (agreeing with the OP) when honestly the conditions that are set for argument purposes ignore large aspects of how the game functions. You can't ignore tools that exist in the game because they ultimately attribute to balance.
TL; DR: Everyone knows WHM has no "natural" MP restoration/conservation, but there is no easily answer as to "why" that we can give. However, the hostile responses to people's opinion about the necessity, or lack there of, in today's game for a natural trait/spell/etc. considering what we have with what's implemented in the game already is unnecessary.
Daniel_Hatcher
03-23-2011, 07:55 AM
They have the same clear mind V as SCH, BLM and SMN, as it stands their is no higher tier.
--
Part of this game has always been about subjob choice, and as it stands WHM has only two choices.
RDM - Convert and Refresh
SCH - Sublimation, Penury and Conserve MP
Both of which make up for any negative WHM may have on the MP Restore front.
Hioki
03-23-2011, 09:29 AM
Don't need it.
Discussion over.
Don't need it.
Discussion over.
I dont think there is more to say :P
Karumac
03-23-2011, 09:53 PM
Stand next to the BRD.
Lithera
03-24-2011, 03:58 AM
I wish whm had a refresh that did not depend on gear, sub job, or the need to endanger ones self. Outside of abyssea there is the whm maat fight, all dream land dynamis zones before you kill the mobs or click the ???, and if you are new to the game and have not yet unlocked the ability to have a sub job. Also until you are 90 you have to depend on /sch as a sub, a Brd, smn, cor, or Rdm to be in your party. Then there is food but even yag drinks can fail you at times. Only what lv 82 onward does /Rdm become a subjob option for refresh. Only time I have a Brd is during limbus in<3 you Deezma! In dynamis, which yes I still do I rarely if ever got refreshed by the Rdm in my party. Hell there were times when I would be lucky enough to have a Rdm in my party. Also not everyone has a Kclub and I doubt I will ever get one due to the friends I have being to busy with getting things for their selves or dragging me along on whm so they can get stuff.
Yes my gear might be Lolable but I blame that on having ninja having been my one love for a long time so I don't have somethings other whm do to help with mp conservation and other aspects of the job. Along with not having much luck in the generating money to spend on the top of the line stuff for whm.
annewandering
03-24-2011, 06:00 AM
I agree that throughout the years the main issue with WHM was its lack of MP conservation/restoration tools compared to the other mages. I never understood why WHM had the lowest Clear Mind trait of all the mages but had no form of MP restoration. Our potency makes up for a bit of that (“why cast 2 Cure IVs when you can cast Cure V once?” kind of deal), but overall we really had nothing naturally. However, with the introduction of /SCH, the ability to sub RDM (I still prefer /SCH but to each his/her own), and, in Abyssea, Refresh atma, some of our MP issues are becoming less severe. Would I like to see some form of natural MP conservation/restoration tool? Sure, but I don't think it would need to be anything drastic. Maybe a decent Conserve MP trait tacked on at a lower level, or a trait similar to the Orison Pantaloons +1/2 that stacked? Even something like a light-based Aspir that actually works on more than a handful of mobs would be nice. Drains a monster’s HP and converts it to our MP? I don't know. I'll leave that to someone creative.
Also, Cure II isn't as terrible as its predecessor. While it's still not great and I still don't use it as much as Curaga, it does come in handy for some older content mobs (Salvage gears mainly and maybe Cactuar) where I can sit in range of a moderate AoE and actually heal more than I was damaged for (unlike Cura which usually couldn't keep up). However, it is still a slap in the face for larger fights. Cure VI on the other hand is a nightmare. Like the OP said, the ratio of Cure/MP is terrible and is even worse outside of Abyssea when people aren't taking ridiculous amounts of damage. It’s a nice alternative if Cure V is down and someone really needs it.
Overall though, WHM is doing a lot better than it was in the older days. Afflatus Solace/Misery, Esuna, Sacrifice, etc. were nice starts and we have gotten other decent additions (especially inside Abyssea). However, a few tweaks here and there would still be appreciated.
Recently in abyssea I have found that cura 2 can be quite useful. I can cure up party from an aoe quickly, getting them out of immediate danger if not all the way to full heal and get back to the tanks. Sure I could use a curaga but cura 2 just seems to do a good fast job.
Septimus
03-24-2011, 06:18 AM
I wish whm had a refresh that did not depend on gear, sub job, or the need to endanger ones self. Outside of abyssea there is the whm maat fight, all dream land dynamis zones before you kill the mobs or click the ???, and if you are new to the game and have not yet unlocked the ability to have a sub job. Also until you are 90 you have to depend on /sch as a sub, a Brd, smn, cor, or Rdm to be in your party. Then there is food but even yag drinks can fail you at times. Only what lv 82 onward does /Rdm become a subjob option for refresh. Only time I have a Brd is during limbus in<3 you Deezma! In dynamis, which yes I still do I rarely if ever got refreshed by the Rdm in my party. Hell there were times when I would be lucky enough to have a Rdm in my party. Also not everyone has a Kclub and I doubt I will ever get one due to the friends I have being to busy with getting things for their selves or dragging me along on whm so they can get stuff.
Yes my gear might be Lolable but I blame that on having ninja having been my one love for a long time so I don't have somethings other whm do to help with mp conservation and other aspects of the job. Along with not having much luck in the generating money to spend on the top of the line stuff for whm.
The whole point of the lack of support job in the Maat fight and CoP Dynamis is that it is designed to be a hardship. If you didn't need anything from your support job then there would be no purpose to bother to take it from you. For example, Bards are not able to cure anyone when they are unable to access a support job. Does that mean that they should get native Cure and status removal spells? Paladin do not have Provoke and Defender or Utsusemi without a support job. Does that mean that they should get native Provoke, Defender, and Utsusemi? According to the "logic"™ of this thread, they obviously should.
Vortex
03-24-2011, 10:43 AM
He's right. they don't need it, if you havn't noticed, every single reasonable armor WHM can wear has refresh on it..
in fact Af3+2 body has a 2 tick refresh, which is only useful for idling and barspells
compared to other mage jobs, WHm dosn't just empty thier Mp pool like that.
Kaych
03-24-2011, 06:04 PM
Allow me to break this down into nice little categories for everyone.
Cura II
As if the first spell didn't suck enough already, now you add in Cura II. Wouldn't have been too bad of a spell if you could target people outside of your party, then it would ALMOST make sense to have it. All Cura is, is an under powered Curaga. And no, it does not matter if Afflatus Misery is up or not, the spell still sucks. Being able to cure 100+ HP, ONLY if you have sustained sufficient damage and ONLY to yourself makes it stupid. Guess what? White Mages are NOT supposed to sustain damage. Hence why there is enmity down armor. Curaga may take up a little bit more MP, but the amount of HP recovered is more stable and reliable than Cura AND you can cast it on other people instead of having to run down to the DD's and put yourself in harms way. Which ALSO makes Cura useless because in a pinch, I am going to throw out a Curaga spell first (especially to wake other sleeping teammates!), that way I do not have to worry about accidentally moving and interrupting my spell casting (which seldom happens for me, but happens quote often if you are not used to playing the job). I am a seasoned White Mage, I have been playing it for 6+ years. Cura is a joke. Care to guess what that makes Cura II?
What to Give White Mages
How about Reviviscence? WHM are already the kings of "ga" spells, right? Why not Stoneskinga, Aquaveilga, Blinkga, give some power back to and potency back to WHM? Hastega? Hey, you already gave it to Garuda, why not give it to a WHM so that it can NOT suck horribly? If a BLU uses Diffusion, they can cast an AOE Haste that is MUCH more potent than a WHM Haste (something else that now sucks). Clear Mind V at a lower level? Since they have NO refresh ability, they should have the highest Clear Mind in the game. Ooh, how about Clear Mind VI? No, that would make too much sense. Can't have that now, can we? Then people might actually think you care about your fans and don't want to royally screw over WHM, like you have been doing for years. I'll be the first person to admit it, I'm biased towards WHM. But come on, Cure VI is crap (its less efficient than Cure II). Cura I & II are a slap in the face of WHM everywhere. The only good thing you have done for WHM since I have been playing is Afflatus Solace. Misery is useless unless you are soloing/DD'ing and pop up Auspice for Light damage to try and make your lolddwhm less of a joke. Oh man, give a WHM Razed Ruins and let them Hexa Strike and it can out parse Randgrith 1,000 times over.
I have been playing WHM for over 5 years. I didnt bother going through all the 10 pages to see if anyone has said this, but...
What I dont agree with:
Afflatus Misery is not worthless>_> Obviusly you dont mele in EXP partys. I do, always. (Yes even outside Abyssea) The only time I dont mele is when we take NMs. Thats what Solice and Sacrifice is for. So, if you learn how to mele, you will see how Cura's are good. Its very MP-saving, along with Esuna. Cura was designed for meleing, so that when you get hit by a AoE WS or magic, the potency gets better. The Auspice helps you hit the mob and Mystic Boon gives you MP back.
If you dont like to mele thats fine, but dont tell me who has done it for years that its "useless". My party is always the last one to die in Events (if they die at all), and they all get Haste, Cures etc. If you are scared of getting slept by a mob, go /SCH for Sublimation.
So there you have it. Cura, Misery and Auspice is not useless, and we have a couple of "give-MP-back" Abilitys. Starlight, Moonlight, Mystic Boon, Dagan for club and Spirit Taker for Staff^_- Boon is my favorite, but I havent gotten Dagan yet so Iunno if thats good.
If people dont want you to mele, /ignore them. As long as u keep theyr HP up and give haste, they have nothing to say.
So here is what I agree on.
Hastega, yes please :D
I have no idea why we havent gotten this yet. This would make things alot easyer. Either that or make Haste last much longer. I think both WHMs and RDMs should get Hastega. I was VERY dissapointed when I found out that SCHs Accension ability dont work on ALL healing and Enhanching spells like it says in the description: "Extends the effect of your next healing or enhancing white magic spell to party members within range. " I remember thinking that FINALLY! we get to use hastega now. Since the lvl cap was lvl 75 when SCH came out, only WHMs and RDMs could benefited from Accension + Haste. It made perfect sence. But noo>_> It should have said "Extends SOME of your Healing and Enhanching effects"...
So I really hope that SE makes this possible the next level cap. Maybe and Augment to Divine Seal or Divine Veil could make AoE Enhanching magic. Perhaps even lowering the recast of Divine Seal to 5 minutes. Just a thought^_-
Dazusu
03-24-2011, 06:52 PM
As if the first spell didn't suck enough already, now you add in Cura II.
Sorrry I'm late to the party, and this might have been covered already (didn't have time to read everyones post)
If you think Cura II sucks, you should stop playing WHM immediately, because clearly you know nothing of your job. It can cure upwards of 250~350 HP if used properly with capped Cure potency gear. If you're getting 100~, you're not using it properly.
Try using it with Afflatus Misery on a mob like Dragua.
Secondly, how is it an "Underpowered Curaga"; it casts a lot faster - and uses only 1/3 of the MP. (Cura II can easily compete with Curaga III)
You call yourself a seasoned WHM.... lol
Let's hope we get Cura III - really get the party started.
Just because you don't know how to (don't care to?) use Cura, don't poop on those of us that use it with a lot of our encounters.
Nacht
03-24-2011, 07:05 PM
in fact Af3+2 body has a 2 tick refresh, which is only useful for idling and barspells
You people need to start realizing with the right gear, AF3+2 body is hands down the best curing body piece. You can get 49% cure potency without a body piece.
As a note, you can also get 50% by using the serpentes hands/feet, but augur gloves+some other mind feet piece is better than serpentes
Dazusu
03-24-2011, 08:04 PM
You people need to start realizing with the right gear, AF3+2 body is hands down the best curing body piece. You can get 49% cure potency without a body piece.
Don't waste your time trying to explain this to people. :P
Kaych
03-24-2011, 10:13 PM
Bottom line is that we all have different ways of playing. Saying that something is "useless" or "worthless" or w/e isnt rly up to you to decide^_- Saying that you dont like it I can settle with:)
Zerayla
03-25-2011, 12:16 AM
I don't know the answer as to why WHMs don't have a natural refresh, but my guess is that it has something to do with keeping the jobs "unique". Some jobs do have access to the same party buffs/job traits through different means (abilities, spells) but off the top of my head I don't think you're going to find one party buff or job trait that every job in the game has access to, naturally.
And while I don't think i'd be unhappy about WHMs getting a natural refresh, i'd must rather see some other "natural" bonuses being added.
I think everyone can agree that inside of Abyssea, you don't need refresh anymore. Outside of Abyssea, I like the idea of having to make decisions on what subjob to use, what other jobs to invite to the party, what gear to have available, to win the battle. Having that challenge where you have to think about how you're going to approach the fight, knowing you have several options available on how to customize your character, makes it a little more fun. If you were to give WHM a natural refresh, the battle would be a bit more "easy mode".
But as it's been said, SE has been making changes to make the game easier so who knows. Perhaps they'll give a natural refresh at some point.
Lithera
03-25-2011, 01:16 AM
But it isn't natural part of a brd's job to cast spells. They do though have a regen like songs, so technically they can cure people just in a dot fashion than instant like a cure or cura can. Pld on the other hand have spells job traits and abilities that help them do their job sans provoke and shadows. They can use flash, cure them selves, use cover on someone else ect. Giving whm some sort of natural refresh would help the job over all a little better. I'm not saying it has to be a spell even. And pending on how good it was you wouldn't need to be /sch or /rdm all the time in or out of abyssea. To the point of seeing whms using /nin or /thf or some other combo more often.
Fetus
03-25-2011, 02:18 AM
Sorrry I'm late to the party, and this might have been covered already (didn't have time to read everyones post)
If you think Cura II sucks, you should stop playing WHM immediately, because clearly you know nothing of your job. It can cure upwards of 250~350 HP if used properly with capped Cure potency gear. If you're getting 100~, you're not using it properly.
Try using it with Afflatus Misery on a mob like Dragua.
Secondly, how is it an "Underpowered Curaga"; it casts a lot faster - and uses only 1/3 of the MP. (Cura II can easily compete with Curaga III)
You call yourself a seasoned WHM.... lol
Let's hope we get Cura III - really get the party started.
Just because you don't know how to (don't care to?) use Cura, don't poop on those of us that use it with a lot of our encounters.
Finally! A devout Cura lover. I agree with you... I want Cura III so much.
Aleste
03-25-2011, 02:31 AM
I don't see the need for WHM to get the job trait auto-refresh; hell, I can barely recall the last time I've ran out of mp. Inside and out of abyssea we've plenty of methods to deal with our mp supply, most of which have been covered (previous posters).
We've more than enough methods to help recover mp passively (refresh and HMP gearsets), reduce consumption (conserve mp, AF3+2 pantaloons) and recover mp aggressively (Dagan, Mystic boon, Spirit taker and the other 2 lol-light WS's). We've even got devotion to help other people with their MP pools (I usually tag-team devotion with the other whitemage I'm assigned with) and that's before covering subjobs or other teammates abilities to help us out.
So in summation, if you're running out of MP in any fight then something is seriously wrong.
If you're inside of abyssea, get your 3 atma slots, and go hunt out minikin/ASA/stormbird/anyrefreshatmas. Minikin ALONE should be more than enough to keep your alliance standing. Add on 2 more 5/tic refresh atma's if you're really struggling.
Outside of abyssea, you should be using a little common sense as there's no 20/tic ref. crutch to hold you up. You've got to plan ahead, know what you're going to do.... and be prepared. Bring your max mp set, a respectable HMP build, refresh gear, and your supplies...
I start most fights around ~1,500 MP on Elv. (/sch), and it's pretty hard to burn through all that MP w/ a little common sense. If for some god forsaken reason I get low, then it's a case of 1 of 3 things:
Are we fighting it wrong? Do the tactics need changed?
Do I have time to rest and recover MP via Clear Mind V paired with a strong HMP set?
Shall I take an 'ace' from up my sleeve? Vile elixers are pretty cheap these days. Hell if things are bleak.. bust out the regain feather, though remember to change to club first (for booooooon~)
Honestly though, we've more than enough methods to keep up our MP, and the AF3+2 pants are quite possibly the best thing that has happened to WHM in a long time. The amount of efficiency gained just from a single piece of gear is astounding, and is well worth slaying Sobek or Tristitia over and over.
If SE does decide that we're MP challenged then they should definitely add in more gear like the AF3 pantaloons (Converts X% of "Cure" amount to MP). The guy that made that gear deserves some sort of internet high-five...
Though, back on topic if you really think a single 1/tic refresh job trait will make and break white-mage, then perhaps you should collect all the below gear, then have a re-think about how you play whitemage in general.
~-~-~
Refresh gear (all 1/tic) : Owleyes, Augmented Wivre Hairpin, Moonshade Earring, Orison Bliaud (+2/tic), Serpentes Cuffs/Sabots (set, depending on day), Balrahn's Ring (Assaults permitting), Poison Tasters Cape (if you're feeling fancy) and an augmented Stearc Subligar.
That's 9/tic, just in gear alone. Some of it might be considered a little fanciful, but it's worthwhile to idle in.
HMP gear : Rsv. Capt. Mace, Legion Scutum, Clarus Stone, Mirror Tiara, Eidolon Pendant, Relaxing Earring, Antivenom Earring, Oracle's Robe, Oracle's Gloves, Dual Star Rings, Vita Cape, Austerity Belt, Nisse Slacks, Avocat Pigaches
+50 HMP gear there, add in WHMs clear mind V trait for +77...80...83... Arguably, the hardest part is finding the time to get down and rest MP back.
Max MP Gear : Gambeteinn, Legion Scutum, Hedgehog Bomb, Pixie Earring, Orison Locket, Gifted Earring, Graiai Earring, Pluviale, Weald Gages (RSE), Bifrost Ring, Serket Ring, Ebuillient Cape, Bellisama's Rope, Adapa's Slacks, Conduit Shoes.
+873 MP; worthwhile for starting any fight in. Just remember to toggle out of it and into other gear appropriately. No point in wasting all that stored MP by accidently switching into your curing gear.
~-~-~
And to think, didn't even touch on the amazing bonuses subjobs give (w/ Light arts, conserve mp traits, penury (<3) and sublimation... it's crazy)
I'd love to comment on frontline WHM and how they have MP difficulties, but I can't seem to recover more than 1,400 MP every 100% tp. With a K-club, it'd be even more crazy as is.
http://i355.photobucket.com/albums/r465/Alestethewhitemage/Boon-1.jpg
~-~-~
TL;DR - We've plenty of ways to reduce comsumption and recover our MP pool. Auto-refresh isn't needed in the slightest, but I won't say no to an extra tic of refresh.
I just decided that Aleste is pretty much the bestest. BOOOOOOOON! :D
Michae
03-25-2011, 05:20 AM
LOL Aleste makes a point. Problem solved.
Alkimi
03-25-2011, 05:59 AM
Don't even carry max MP gear anymore, never did really.
There's a few gear sets I used to carry which I just don't that often anymore.
Used to have an enfeebling set, but now I just cast Slow/Para in full +MND gear, sticks just as well as RDMs most of the time. Rarely carry resting gear apart from certain occasions outside Abyssea.
My MND/MAB gear set for Holy/Banish and INT/MAB set for Impact get more use.
Myrid
03-26-2011, 06:10 AM
disclaimer 1: only read the first page of posts. just putting in my 2 cents
disclaimer 2: I've been playing rdm for the entirety of my FFXI career (oct 2003). WHM was my second job, leveled in around 2005. Had done everything the game had to offer at the time of CoP (wyrms, bahamut), have been a little less hardcore since then.
WHM in abyssea is completely overpowered right now as long as you have minikin monstrosity atma. Don't even need anything else for 95% of fights. Reason being: Cure V and Cure VI. Nobody else can heal for 1k hp every 3 seconds (or so) when it's often needed with such huge HP pools (and such huge damage numbers).
Outside, however, it's the exact opposite when the whm is not tagging along with a rdm or brd. In this case rdm (refresh 2), sch (enhanced sub, light arts, penury) tend to pull away as better solo healers simply due to MP conservation. This is, again, considering you're the lone healer in the group, and resting would mean death. In any fight where you can rest, it's not a problem.
My fix ideas:
For rdm/sch: Give a special cure that cures a percentage of max HP (50%?). make sure it takes abyssea buffs into account. Give it a hefty MP cost and moderate cooldown (10s?) but cast time equal to c5. So whm would still be a better healer for most cases there. Could even give this spell to whm too, not that they'd use it. Outside of abyssea, it'd pretty much be another c4.
For whm: either - Give a job trait that occasionally returns 50% of a cure's mp back to the caster. Exact potency of that trait can be adjusted for balance.
or: a spell when used under solace uses the built up (and useless) "uber holy" charge to instead restore mp. Again, exact potency can be adjusted for balance.. but idea would be to grant about as much mp back as a sch would get for their enhanced sublimation, usable about as often.
Charismatic
03-26-2011, 04:34 PM
WHM is nowhere near underpowered outside of Abyssea. If you have even half-decent gear and just slap on /RDM or /SCH, you shouldn't have any MP troubles even with no refresher.
Sure, you're gaining MP at a much slower rate than inside Abyssea, but you're generally losing it at a much slower rate as well because at this point there's really no enemies outside of there that put a strain on your MP like that unless you're using some sort of blood tank on a powerful NM, and with us at Lv90 now I'm not even sure how many fights would be challenging that way anymore.
I don't know about being overpowered in Abyssea either, the main healing job being far and away the best at healing but nothing else doesn't strike me as overpowered in any way.
Fetus
03-27-2011, 05:37 AM
12 pages... and going. Just give WHM Auto Refresh I and be done with it. Maybe then we can finally move past a roadblock on a trait that is overdue by 9 years or so, although it's not especially that useful anymore. But hey, we got Shield Defense Bonus which is completely useless in any situation; So to repay the insult, they could at least give us Auto Refresh.
Daniel_Hatcher
03-27-2011, 06:14 AM
12 pages... and going. Just give WHM Auto Refresh I and be done with it. Maybe then we can finally move past a roadblock on a trait that is overdue by 9 years or so, although it's not especially that useful anymore. But hey, we got Shield Defense Bonus which is completely useless in any situation; So to repay the insult, they could at least give us Auto Refresh.
12 pages filled with 90% disagreeing WHM needs it, so pray tell why they'd still give it to WHM?
Fetus
03-27-2011, 06:24 AM
Because SE enjoys giving WHM stuff they don't need whatsoever... like Shield Defense Bonus!
Daniel_Hatcher
03-27-2011, 06:30 AM
Melee WHM? :)
Hoshi
03-27-2011, 06:30 AM
I love my shield skill! But yeah WHM doesn't need auto-refresh as a trait lol.
Vraelia
03-27-2011, 06:33 AM
I love my shield skill! But yeah WHM doesn't need auto-refresh as a trait lol.
Yeah, it's like RDMs getting Shield Mastery, which it should have been given to PLDs. lols
WHMs having Auto-Refresh is a good idea. I am going to continue to support WHMs getting this Trait.
Daniel_Hatcher
03-27-2011, 07:20 AM
Yeah, it's like RDMs getting Shield Mastery, which it should have been given to PLDs. lols
WHMs having Auto-Refresh is a good idea. I am going to continue to support WHMs getting this Trait.
PLD has three tiers of it.
25 - Shield Mastery
50 - Shield Mastery II
75 - Shield Mastery III
Kiroko
03-29-2011, 11:57 AM
Thank you for posting this! Very valid arguments and being a whm for a few years now, I would love to see us having a refresh of our own.
Avarice
04-01-2011, 01:33 AM
While an Auto-Refresh trait would be nice for WHM, it's far from needed. Abyssea has several forms of Refresh atmas, so I won't go into why it's not needed in there. Outside of Abyssea though it's different, and the main problem people seem to be having is realizing that WHM in Abyssea is vastly different from WHM outside of Abyssea.
Outside of Abyssea, you sub Scholar, you keep Sublimation up, you downgrade from Cure V and VI to Cure III and Cure IV (using Penury if you absolutely must use Cure V; never use Cure VI). Additonally, you rest. You get down on your goddamn knee if MP gets low and recover it the old fashioned way; in these situations you employ something called an hMP set, y'know, those things that say "MP recovered while healing +X"?
There's also no reason you don't have several ticks of Auto-refresh from your idle set. If you play through quests correctly, there's no reason you can't get at least 5mp/tic back. Let's count them off:
Weapon: Owleyes (+1mp/tic)
Moonshade Earring (+1mp/tic)
Body: Orison Bliauld +1/+2 (+1mp/tic or +2mp/tic respectively)
Hands: Serpentes Cuffs (+1mp/tic at night)
Legs: Stearc Subligar (+1mp/tic)
Feet: Serpentes Sabbots (+1mp/tic during the day)
Add it all up and you have at minimum, 5mp/tic (6mp/tic if you have the +2 version of the Orison Bliaud) return, and I'm probably forgetting about one or two other things too.
More MP is nothing more than an excuse to let a WHM act a little more recklessly; it doesn't (shouldn't) have any affect on their ability to keep a player alive through a battle.
Andevom
04-01-2011, 04:31 AM
I see this as saying "Why can't every melee job get Utsusemi?" Give WHM a Refresh, and you make RDM suffer in the process. Allowing the abilities RDM gets (Refresh AND Convert) through subbing already makes WHM/RDM on a more attractive option than a RDM. Why increase the blow even further? Because you want to sub a different mage job on your WHM? Sorry, you just can't have the perks from everything.
Hoshi
04-01-2011, 04:51 AM
1 tic of autorefresh just isn't that helpful. It's why /smn never did much for anyone once tanks started using utsusemi and no longer needed garuda blink. If you're looking to adjust/strengthen WHM there are probably better places to start.
Simian
04-01-2011, 09:59 AM
Are we still driving this into the ground?
Have we not yet agreed that WHM has no "natural" refresh already?
As to the OP's original question, only the development team can answer why. the rest of us can only guess.
good night thread
Avarice
04-01-2011, 10:45 AM
Are we still driving this into the ground?
Have we not yet agreed that WHM has no "natural" refresh already?
As to the OP's original question, only the development team can answer why. the rest of us can only guess.
good night thread
Reading is hard.
Nacht
04-01-2011, 05:41 PM
Outside of Abyssea, you sub Scholar, you keep Sublimation up, you downgrade from Cure V and VI to Cure III and Cure IV (using Penury if you absolutely must use Cure V; never use Cure VI).
Why would you stop using Cure5? Cure 3/5 were the 2 preferred cures pre-abyssea and I don't see why they won't be the preferred ones post-abyssea. It's more mp efficient than any other cure.
Orenwald
04-01-2011, 10:18 PM
Why would you stop using Cure5? Cure 3/5 were the 2 preferred cures pre-abyssea and I don't see why they won't be the preferred ones post-abyssea. It's more mp efficient than any other cure.
I agree with Nacht, Cure 3 and 5 were my bread and butter before I gots ridonkulous Refresh atmas.
Also: Outside of abyssea I'm still going to sub Red mage. I like refresh. I like skilling Enhancing... It's good times
Alkimi
04-02-2011, 01:28 AM
Outside of Abyssea, you sub Scholar, you keep Sublimation up, you downgrade from Cure V and VI to Cure III and Cure IV (using Penury if you absolutely must use Cure V; never use Cure VI).
No reason to 'downgrade' anything.
Assuming you have +2 pants and capped potency (which every whm should have or be working towards) and cure for the full amount:
Cure III = 28MP
Cure IV = 50MP
Cure V = 67MP
Cure V (with Penury) = 2MP
Cure VI = 130MP
Cure VI (with Penury) = 39MP
The difference between cost of Cure 4 and 5 and the amount they heal mean it's rarely worth it, especially if you're gonna have issues with enmity. I'd just stick to 3 and 5, maybe use 6 at a push but only with Penury active.
Kaych
04-03-2011, 07:55 AM
I never use cure IV^^ I dont really like to tank as WHM^_- I'll leave that to RDMs and PLDs :D
Vortex
04-03-2011, 09:14 AM
Inside Abyssea : Cure V, VI
Outside Cure 3-5
You need to actually be smart at WHM to effectivly use Cure 4, it's very MP effeicent if you put more -Enimity in it then other cures, it's used for when you don't have enough MP to warrent a Cure V but cure 3 will not be enough. Never once have i grabed hate using cure IV when i needed, unless the tank was just incredibly dumb.
Vraelia
04-03-2011, 12:19 PM
I don't see the need for WHM to get the job trait auto-refresh; hell, I can barely recall the last time I've ran out of mp. Inside and out of abyssea we've plenty of methods to deal with our mp supply, most of which have been covered (previous posters).
We've more than enough methods to help recover mp passively (refresh and HMP gearsets), reduce consumption (conserve mp, AF3+2 pantaloons) and recover mp aggressively (Dagan, Mystic boon, Spirit taker and the other 2 lol-light WS's). We've even got devotion to help other people with their MP pools (I usually tag-team devotion with the other whitemage I'm assigned with) and that's before covering subjobs or other teammates abilities to help us out.
So in summation, if you're running out of MP in any fight then something is seriously wrong.
If you're inside of abyssea, get your 3 atma slots, and go hunt out minikin/ASA/stormbird/anyrefreshatmas. Minikin ALONE should be more than enough to keep your alliance standing. Add on 2 more 5/tic refresh atma's if you're really struggling.
Outside of abyssea, you should be using a little common sense as there's no 20/tic ref. crutch to hold you up. You've got to plan ahead, know what you're going to do.... and be prepared. Bring your max mp set, a respectable HMP build, refresh gear, and your supplies...
I start most fights around ~1,500 MP on Elv. (/sch), and it's pretty hard to burn through all that MP w/ a little common sense. If for some god forsaken reason I get low, then it's a case of 1 of 3 things:
Are we fighting it wrong? Do the tactics need changed?
Do I have time to rest and recover MP via Clear Mind V paired with a strong HMP set?
Shall I take an 'ace' from up my sleeve? Vile elixers are pretty cheap these days. Hell if things are bleak.. bust out the regain feather, though remember to change to club first (for booooooon~)
Honestly though, we've more than enough methods to keep up our MP, and the AF3+2 pants are quite possibly the best thing that has happened to WHM in a long time. The amount of efficiency gained just from a single piece of gear is astounding, and is well worth slaying Sobek or Tristitia over and over.
If SE does decide that we're MP challenged then they should definitely add in more gear like the AF3 pantaloons (Converts X% of "Cure" amount to MP). The guy that made that gear deserves some sort of internet high-five...
Though, back on topic if you really think a single 1/tic refresh job trait will make and break white-mage, then perhaps you should collect all the below gear, then have a re-think about how you play whitemage in general.
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Refresh gear (all 1/tic) : Owleyes, Augmented Wivre Hairpin, Moonshade Earring, Orison Bliaud (+2/tic), Serpentes Cuffs/Sabots (set, depending on day), Balrahn's Ring (Assaults permitting), Poison Tasters Cape (if you're feeling fancy) and an augmented Stearc Subligar.
That's 9/tic, just in gear alone. Some of it might be considered a little fanciful, but it's worthwhile to idle in.
HMP gear : Rsv. Capt. Mace, Legion Scutum, Clarus Stone, Mirror Tiara, Eidolon Pendant, Relaxing Earring, Antivenom Earring, Oracle's Robe, Oracle's Gloves, Dual Star Rings, Vita Cape, Austerity Belt, Nisse Slacks, Avocat Pigaches
+50 HMP gear there, add in WHMs clear mind V trait for +77...80...83... Arguably, the hardest part is finding the time to get down and rest MP back.
Max MP Gear : Gambeteinn, Legion Scutum, Hedgehog Bomb, Pixie Earring, Orison Locket, Gifted Earring, Graiai Earring, Pluviale, Weald Gages (RSE), Bifrost Ring, Serket Ring, Ebuillient Cape, Bellisama's Rope, Adapa's Slacks, Conduit Shoes.
+873 MP; worthwhile for starting any fight in. Just remember to toggle out of it and into other gear appropriately. No point in wasting all that stored MP by accidently switching into your curing gear.
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And to think, didn't even touch on the amazing bonuses subjobs give (w/ Light arts, conserve mp traits, penury (<3) and sublimation... it's crazy)
I'd love to comment on frontline WHM and how they have MP difficulties, but I can't seem to recover more than 1,400 MP every 100% tp. With a K-club, it'd be even more crazy as is.
http://i355.photobucket.com/albums/r465/Alestethewhitemage/Boon-1.jpg
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TL;DR - We've plenty of ways to reduce comsumption and recover our MP pool. Auto-refresh isn't needed in the slightest, but I won't say no to an extra tic of refresh.
Okay, after rereading the posts. I have came to a more appropriate decision.
/declines WHMs of having a 'natural' Refresh. Aleste already made the point clear. WHMs shouldn't and does not need a Natural Form of Refresh.
Inside of Abyssea, you have Atma of the Minikin Montrosity. And Atma of Allure. WHMs don't need Auto-Refresh within Abyssea.
Outside of Abyssea, WHMs have insane amounts of MP. I know this is not much but still, I love my MP pool: 1.2k+ MP as Mithra, and I never once thought I needed a Natural Form of Refresh.
If you need MP/HMP, I know this is irrelevant, but you have other options. You can still use food. And Aleste's gear clearly shows that WHMs can handle everything inside or outside of Abyssea. And plus, not to offend anyone, but if you are truly a good WHM, and know your job, you should be able to 'conserve' your MP and use it wisely. As to not really feel the need of a Natural Refresh.
Thank you, Aleste for your in-depth information on how to conserve and gain MP. :)
Thread Closed.