Please implement countermeasures for cheaters in Nyzul Isle Uncharted Region

[Zelduh]

I've been reading all of the main FFXI Community Boards, and many people are extremely excited to use illegal third party tools to gain an unfair advantage over other players by being able to use these tools to circumvent the mechanics that were intended for Nyzul Isle. Please implement a countermeasure change of some sort that will prevent players from utilizing this exploit to their advantage and hurting other players as well as disrupting the balance of the game. Thank you.

[Agetos]

True some people were talking about it on the ffxiah forums. someone should try and monitor if they can. But as far as the new content goes it's extremely nice. the drop rates are very fair and the new floor system is very interesting. it can either help you get to a boss floor faster or be a cruel mistress and put you 1 floor over what you wanted. considering all the new gear that can come from the different boss floors i'd say the chances of getting to floor 100 are very slim but that is to be expected for the +5 final form gear which btw is extremely sexy looking. Very nice work on this one devs.

[Castoth]

The only reason such talk has erupted is due to how terrible this event is. If Square made it possible so that floors 80-100 could be reliably reached by a competent party *without* cheating, I'm sure the talk would die off. As it stands, the event is a gigantic waste of time and no sense of progression is achieved; it's all based on dumb, extreme luck.

[wish12oz]

The best way to avoid people resorting to hacking, is to add content that doesn't require it, not content that basically demands you hack to get anywhere. I am not promoting hacking, I am simply mad at SE for designing content that is so poorly executed the only way to almost effectively go about trying to complete it is to hack. And even with that, you're still not going to accomplish anything most of the time. Personally, I refuse to even be involved in this trash event, the only 2 items I even wanted were nerfed and made basically useless anyway, so I don't care.

Really though, I am amazed SE managed to design something that is actually WORSE then voidwatch...

[Eurell]

The only reason such talk has erupted is due to how terrible this event is. If Square made it possible so that floors 80-100 could be reliably reached by a competent party *without* cheating, I'm sure the talk would die off. As it stands, the event is a gigantic waste of time and no sense of progression is achieved; it's all based on dumb, extreme luck.


this ^

At an average of 5 floors per ??? jump, you would still have to beat 20 floors (more if a ??? jump could put you past floor 100, in which case you would want to start going one floor at a time around 94 or so). And after beating all those floors in under 90 seconds a floor, you would still only have a 1/15 chance to get the piece you are after. It's a horrible system as it stands.

Honestly, it probably would have been perfect if it was set up like old Nyzul as far as, feet on floor 20, legs on 40, etc, let you save your floors and start somewhere above 1 (even if it was only every 10 floors instead of 5 to maintain balance lol) and then just involved some sort of Magian trial to upgrade the gear. Something like kill the floor 20 boss 5 times to upgrade a feet piece wouldve been fine. That would've been very time consuming, but at least given people a chance to make progress on their gear every day. As it stands now, It's a completely luck based event with 0 progression.

I admit there might be something the player base is missing of course (its only been a day so far), but it's not like Nyzul is a new event. People already know what we have to do to progress, the only confusing thing so far is why the disc bothers to record your progress, when it starts you at floor 1 every time.

[Arcon]

Are you talking about identifying lamp orders? That's the only abusable mechanic I know of and it could be easily prevented (although it should have never occurred in the first place, I don't know who at SE thought ordering the lamps like that).

I'm not aware of any hacks applicable to Nyzul Isle, or what in particular are you referring to?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Seriously, I'm anti-third party tools, but this effects you in no way. Stop crying over such nonsense.

[Greatguardian]

Are you talking about identifying lamp orders? That's the only abusable mechanic I know of and it could be easily prevented (although it should have never occurred in the first place, I don't know who at SE thought ordering the lamps like that).

I'm not aware of any hacks applicable to Nyzul Isle, or what in particular are you referring to?

See through walls, walk through walls, run at 200%+ speed fulltime, get an enemy-populated map of the area, etc could all be used to significantly shorten the amount of time it takes to clear any given floor.

Most of the talk on BG about this is generally more along the vein of "God dammit, I do not want any event where I have to use X, Y, Z to win it. This is screwed up."

[Arcon]

See through walls, walk through walls, run at 200%+ speed fulltime, get an enemy-populated map of the area, etc could all be used to significantly shorten the amount of time it takes to clear any given floor.

I see, I was wondering about Nyzul-specific hacks, although it does seem to be more susceptible/incentive to the use of those.

[Economizer]

etc could all be used to significantly shorten the amount of time it takes to clear any given floor

Okay I thought the OP was talking about some new exploit made possible with third party tools and not the wall hack stuff that cheaters have been using on Nyzul. Thank you for explaining what's going on since the OP didn't, it certainly makes it less scary.

---

Honestly, if they didn't fix it then, I don't think they are going to fix it now. Nor do I think they are going to temp ban anyone short of going over chat logs after someone in a group reports someone and finding people gloating.

It is wrong, people shouldn't be defending it regardless of the issue that (at least based on the information we have now) the new Nyzul area has very specific progression issues for being able to get gear over time. If people want the event to be fixed, they should be ignoring the cheaters because SE shouldn't balance around them and talk about what would fix this. Here is a link to a good thread for that. (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/20806-Nyzul-Isle-Uncharted-information-and-feedback) If people want to talk about implementing more counter measures for cheaters then I suppose they should post here, but again, I don't think SE is going to do much about a minority of people using the equivalent to wall hacks if they didn't do something four years ago, especially when it isn't on the level of forcing an item to drop that wasn't intended to - they probably value other adjustments more and have limited resources.

[Greatguardian]

Yeah, there's no way to like hack the lamps to auto-clear you or anything like that. It's just speed-enhancing stuff at the core, which is what it will probably take to hit 80+ within the time limit with any real regularity unless something is found. You still have to fight all the monsters, clear all the objectives, etc, you just do it faster.

Oh it's still cheating, I just wanted to clarify since it seemed like a lot of people were misunderstanding the intentionally-vague OP to mean something else.

[Xantavia]

The best way to avoid people resorting to hacking, is to add content that doesn't require it, not content that basically demands you hack to get anywhere.
Some people will still try to find a shortcut, whether it seems to require it or not. Back when Hagun went for several million, people would use datswaps in order to make the ENM easier to complete. It wasn't impossible to win with a regular group, but people still found an excuse to cheat.

[wish12oz]

Some people will still try to find a shortcut, whether it seems to require it or not. Back when Hagun went for several million, people would use datswaps in order to make the ENM easier to complete. It wasn't impossible to win with a regular group, but people still found an excuse to cheat.

But in your story, none-cheaters could also win. In new Nyzul.... no one wins, but the cheaters will get a lot closer.

[Novowels]

Yeah, there's no way to like hack the lamps to auto-clear you or anything like that.

while auto-clearing the lamps isnt possible, what used to be possible, and may still be, is using certain map tools that if the lamp floors were specific order, a number would show up on the map tool next to the lamp, with this number signifying its place in the lamp order.

[Brolic]

while auto-clearing the lamps isnt possible, what used to be possible, and may still be, is using certain map tools that if the lamp floors were specific order, a number would show up on the map tool next to the lamp, with this number signifying its place in the lamp order.

that's barely worth it though, you'd have to be a complete dunce to not figure out an "order" floor within a min

[Nynja]

I just want to point out that someone fleetooling to get NeoNyzul done does hurt others: SE see's floor100 drops being created, despite the fact it was only made possible by cheating, therefor theres no problem on their end.

Similarly with the Salvage bans and why alex requirements are still 30k: Groups would triple drops from the bosses, so instead of 4 cotton purses and maybe 1 linen, you're getting 12 cotton purses and maybe 3 linen. So the amount of alex per run jumps from 100 to 300.

[Brolic]

I just want to point out that someone fleetooling to get NeoNyzul done does hurt others: SE see's floor100 drops being created, despite the fact it was only made possible by cheating, therefor theres no problem on their end.

Similarly with the Salvage bans and why alex requirements are still 30k: Groups would triple drops from the bosses, so instead of 4 cotton purses and maybe 1 linen, you're getting 12 cotton purses and maybe 3 linen. So the amount of alex per run jumps from 100 to 300.

Salvage bans were more than 2 years ago, if se gave a shit it would have been adjusted a long time ago.

[Nynja]

We know SE doesnt give a shit...doesnt change the fact that people cheating through an event directly hurts others because SE's going to see that people are completing said content and anyone saying "its fkn impossible" will be met by "well these guys did it".

[Disifer]

Pretty sure no one has even gotten to 100 with said cheats. Every thread the past month is the same, pointless mostly said for a few remarks, including this pointless reply.

[Jamesy]

all i see in this post is people crying about something that has 0 effect on them what so ever. your not compete for pops your not trying to beat someone else for a better reward. so just shut up its like old nyzul isle get over it your small group is in their alone what another group does wont effect you.

[Mirabelle]

all i see in this post is people crying about something that has 0 effect on them what so ever. your not compete for pops your not trying to beat someone else for a better reward. so just shut up its like old nyzul isle get over it your small group is in their alone what another group does wont effect you.

Salvage dupes had no direct effect on me either but SE banned tons of folks for it. But as others have said, if SE sees people getting to floor 100 and doesn't know they cheated to do so, they won't fix the event and assume its "working as intended". Using 3rd party tools to gain an unfair advantage is strictly against the EULA and should be punished appropriately.

[Starry]

Salvage dupes had no direct effect on me either but SE banned tons of folks for it. But as others have said, if SE sees people getting to floor 100 and doesn't know they cheated to do so, they won't fix the event and assume its "working as intended". Using 3rd party tools to gain an unfair advantage is strictly against the EULA and should be punished appropriately.

Duplicating items 'messes with the economy' - where clearing floors slightly faster really has marginal-no effect on anyone else.

[Morier]

People always down "aby noobs" for not knowing their job and such, but "hack noobs" are worse when content comes out is a challenge and they "must" use hacks. No content requires hacks, it requires people that aren't so dependent on hacks that they can do simple things.

[Nynja]

Duplicating items 'messes with the economy' - where clearing floors slightly faster really has marginal-no effect on anyone else.

Read my post again, and tell me it has no effect on anyone else.

If you cant do that, I'll grade1-ify it:
Little Timmy is given 30 minutes to complete a math test, along with the rest of the class. No external notes are accepted, not even a cheat sheet. Little Johnny snuck in a cheat sheet. Everyone in the class fails to complete the test, except for Little Johnny. The class complains about how the test was impossible to complete in the given timeframe, even the class nerd who has generally been getting 90% or higher on all previous homeworks, but the teacher says the complaints are unfounded because Little Johnny finished in time.

No re-test is given and all the children get grades of 20-60%, except for Little Johnny who scored somewhere between 80-100%, who passed because he was cheating.

Little Johnny's cheating should have no effect on the outcome of the other classmates's results, it obviously did.

[Tohihroyu]

Oh don't worry they will...in about 2 or 3 years like with Salvage bans.

[Disifer]

Read my post again, and tell me it has no effect on anyone else.

If you cant do that, I'll grade1-ify it:
Little Timmy is given 30 minutes to complete a math test, along with the rest of the class. No external notes are accepted, not even a cheat sheet. Little Johnny snuck in a cheat sheet. Everyone in the class fails to complete the test, except for Little Johnny. The class complains about how the test was impossible to complete in the given timeframe, even the class nerd who has generally been getting 90% or higher on all previous homeworks, but the teacher says the complaints are unfounded because Little Johnny finished in time.

No re-test is given and all the children get grades of 20-60%, except for Little Johnny who scored somewhere between 80-100%, who passed because he was cheating.

Little Johnny's cheating should have no effect on the outcome of the other classmates's results, it obviously did.

Yeah except in the real world and in SE's, the teacher really doesn't give a fuck if you passed or failed the test, regardless of the situation. Both feel their job is done and they go home to their husband/wife while the boy cries as his father is belting his ass. And his outcome had nothing to do with his other classmates. To think that scenario ever played out in the real world, it's the same as all the kids competing in a competition get a medal. it rarely happens except for special olympics so question is, how far down this rabbit hole you wanna go?

[Nynja]

You must have had a really sad and pathetic childhood...

[Greatguardian]

Yeah except in the real world and in SE's, the teacher really doesn't give a fuck if you passed or failed the test, regardless of the situation. Both feel their job is done and they go home to their husband/wife while the boy cries as his father is belting his ass. And his outcome had nothing to do with his other classmates. To think that scenario ever played out in the real world, it's the same as all the kids competing in a competition get a medal. it rarely happens except for special olympics so question is, how far down this rabbit hole you wanna go?

You never took curved exams in university, did you?

The funny thing is I've been "That guy" who gets a 98 on an exam while the class average is 45. Not through cheating, mind you, but it's certainly fucked plenty of people over as many profs in engineering classes will only curve to bring the highest grade to a 100. This means the class average of 45 was raised to a class average of 47 because one person managed to get a 98 on the exam.

If you don't understand why curving exams at the university level is important, well then you're probably either too young to know better or too disillusioned to care.

[Mirabelle]

You never took curved exams in university, did you?

The funny thing is I've been "That guy" who gets a 98 on an exam while the class average is 45. Not through cheating, mind you, but it's certainly fucked plenty of people over as many profs in engineering classes will only curve to bring the highest grade to a 100. This means the class average of 45 was raised to a class average of 47 because one person managed to get a 98 on the exam.

If you don't understand why curving exams at the university level is important, well then you're probably either too young to know better or too disillusioned to care.

Yeah I remember getting 90% on a biology exam where the class average was under 50% and they actually did curve my score to 113% just to bring the grades in line. Took pressure off the final knowing I had a 101% average going into the exam. Curved exams happened all the time when I was in University and certainly having a cheater screw things up would bollocks everyone else in that scenario.

If people are only obtaining good gear through cheating, it ruins things for the rest of us indirectly.

[Godofgods]

The best way to avoid people resorting to hacking, is to add content that doesn't require it

Man, you ppl never stop complaining. And that statement ^^ is asinine beyond belief. If you don't want ppl to cheat, don't make content that is hard. Seriously? And of course if it were easy then you would be complaining about the game having no challenge to it. ... ... ... Oh wait, ppl already are'


People need to remember, their are 20 drastically different jobs. Their are ppl playing every day, and some once a week if their lucky. Some then spend eternity gaining better equipment, some that just get what time allows them to.
Their is a drastic range of everything in players. You'll never be able to make something thats perfect for every single one!

[Godofgods]

You never took curved exams in university, did you?

The funny thing is I've been "That guy" who gets a 98 on an exam while the class average is 45. Not through cheating, mind you, but it's certainly fucked plenty of people over as many profs in engineering classes will only curve to bring the highest grade to a 100. This means the class average of 45 was raised to a class average of 47 because one person managed to get a 98 on the exam.

If you don't understand why curving exams at the university level is important, well then you're probably either too young to know better or too disillusioned to care.

You no were all screwed when even the teachers are cheating for the kids. Gotta wonder tho. Is it to make the kids look good, or the teachers? Classrooms basically promoting stupidity and laziness, then we wonder why 19 other countries graduate more scientist then we do.. I wonder why...

[Greatguardian]

Man, you ppl never stop complaining. And that statement ^^ is asinine beyond belief. If you don't want ppl to cheat, don't make content that is hard. Seriously? And of course if it were easy then you would be complaining about the game having no challenge to it. ... ... ... Oh wait, ppl already are'


People need to remember, their are 20 drastically different jobs. Their are ppl playing every day, and some once a week if their lucky. Some then spend eternity gaining better equipment, some that just get what time allows them to.
Their is a drastic range of everything in players. You'll never be able to make something thats perfect for every single one!

There's a difference between "Hard" and "If you're not running at 300% movement speed, you will not make it".


You no were all screwed when even the teachers are cheating for the kids. Gotta wonder tho. Is it to make the kids look good, or the teachers? Classrooms basically promoting stupidity and laziness, then we wonder why 19 other countries graduate more scientist then we do.. I wonder why...

Hey. Genius. If it's so easy to graduate as a scientist while being stupid and lazy in the US, wouldn't we graduate more of them than any other country?

I wonder what your Ph.D is in.

[MarkovChain]

give me gear for free or I'm going to cheat

Typical BG nerds. Well anyway those that cheat probably suck to much to achieve anything ; I've read the DRKx2 SCHx2 strat today it made me laugh. When It comes to nyzlulz, gimps are pretty efficient at findings new strategies that for their fail jobs. Follow pchan's advise, and use a balance PT, let the bard afk at start and use troubador on kill-all floors. One thing is certain is if you party is made of sch, cors and drk, cheating is necessary to win.

Cheating is bad !

Idk what's going on with the nyzul complaints but on the test server I made it solo to floor 23 on PUP. So if you are 6 .... I hope floor 100 is 1% drop rate.

[Nynja]

It's exactly difficult to clear 4 rounds of EP mobs in 30 minutes moron (5.5 floor average per port up, 1>6>12>17>23). A melee whm could accomplish that too.

[MarkovChain]

they are decent challenge.

[Zelduh]

Considering Embrava is the most powerful buff in the game and lasts 12.5 minutes (more if you recast it right before Tabula Rasa wears) SCH isn't a bad idea to bring along for Nyzul, but that's not the point of this thread.

Cheating is wrong period (there is literally no argument against that) and it should be dealt with accordingly. Having some random cheating gimp with the best gear in the game DOES hurt a legit player, because people will look at the cheater and say "Hey, this player's gear is amazing! He must be awesome!" and think less of the people who don't cheat. That and of course SE thinking all is right with the world if all the cheaters get their stuff (similar to the grading curve thing) and not to mention Alexandrite isn't rare/ex, and pouches are dropped off bosses, so it DOES hurt the economy and people seeking mythics.

If you can't see why using "tools" which are both CLEARLY against the Terms of Service (which you MUST agree to 100% before playing) AND morally wrong AND give an unfair advantage to people, which is basically akin to robbing them of their own opportunities, then I hope you enjoy going to jail or being banned/expelled in real life because I'm sure you think stealing from people/steroids in sports/cheating in school is perfectly fine too!

[wish12oz]

Typical BG nerds. Well anyway those that cheat probably suck to much to achieve anything ; I've read the DRKx2 SCHx2 strat today it made me laugh. When It comes to nyzlulz, gimps are pretty efficient at findings new strategies that for their fail jobs. Follow pchan's advise, and use a balance PT, let the bard afk at start and use troubador on kill-all floors. One thing is certain is if you party is made of sch, cors and drk, cheating is necessary to win.

Cheating is bad !

Idk what's going on with the nyzul complaints but on the test server I made it solo to floor 23 on PUP. So if you are 6 .... I hope floor 100 is 1% drop rate.

Oh look, here comes pchan to chime in and say how awesome he is and how he can do everything so easy. Guess what pchan, you never killed Dragua without a brew, you never duo'd an ADL pop, you never 6 manned ADL, you never did anything you ever said you could do. So I'm not even going to waste the time to ask where your video is of you being on floor 100, or where your floor 100 gear is, because I know you don't have any. Just like you don't have the sense to read what I actually posted, you just changed what I said to suit your own need to try and make me look bad because you can't counter my actual argument. At no point did I say I would cheat, in other posts I even went so far as to say I will not being doing this craptastic event, until they fix it. So apparently not doing something is cheating in pchan world, how exactly does that work?

EDIT: I also don't know what a maljority is, or what point you're trying to convey here, could you please explain it to me?


No it's not everyone (but you) know what maljority means.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/20350-99-Empyrean-Trials.?p=279802&viewfull=1#post279802

[MarkovChain]

You sound like you are pretty butthurt, anyway for ADL watch the threads in the following days. Meanwhile try to get better and do Nyzul with competent people.

[Zirael]

You sound like you are pretty butthurt, anyway for ADL watch the threads in the following days. Meanwhile try to get better and do Nyzul with competent people.
Everyone's been waiting for WEEKS by now :(

[wish12oz]

Everyone's been waiting for WEEKS by now :(

He's gotta fight each one 10-20 times til he gets lucky and actually beats it with his setup ideas. That way he can splice all the videos together and be like "look I did it!"


Meanwhile try to get better and do Nyzul with competent people.

You should learn reading comprehension, I stated in my last post I'm not doing nyzul because it's a bad event, and guess what! 99.9% of the player population agrees with me.

[Zackan]

This reminds of lvl 75 av without the cheating debates

[Ophannus]

An annoying factor of Nyzul is that double Embrava is almost absolute minimum. GG making another event where jobs are bottlenecked further.

[Alhanelem]

I've been reading all of the main FFXI Community Boards, and many people are extremely excited to use illegal third party tools to gain an unfair advantage over other players by being able to use these tools to circumvent the mechanics that were intended for Nyzul Isle. Please implement a countermeasure change of some sort that will prevent players from utilizing this exploit to their advantage and hurting other players as well as disrupting the balance of the game. Thank you.

Here's a better idea. How about design the assault in such a way that such third party tools wouldn't be viewed as necessary?

[MarkovChain]

An annoying factor of Nyzul is that double Embrava is almost absolute minimum. GG making another event where jobs are bottlenecked further.

Bullcrap spread by BG losers really. Would be the case if 100% of nyzul was fighting, problem is , 75% of nyzul is running. Therefore cheating helps a lot :P more that embrava (that barely helps).

[Ophannus]

BLU is also extremely necessary for stupidly difficult NM's like this: http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Abject_Kharoub

The second we engaged it we all ate a 1600 Tourbillion then he started picking people off with Thunderbolt and Bloodrake. Took multiple 2hrs to kill this thing, was harder than floor 100 boss. THis NM is also a gigantic time waster: http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Nukku

[Insaniac]

BLU is also extremely necessary for stupidly difficult NM's like this: http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Abject_Kharoub

The second we engaged it we all ate a 1600 Tourbillion then he started picking people off with Thunderbolt and Bloodrake. Took multiple 2hrs to kill this thing, was harder than floor 100 boss. THis NM is also a gigantic time waster: http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Nukku I have yet to use a BLU for NI:2 and have never needed one. Double embrava is the only must have. Yes it can be done without it but nothing makes a bigger difference. With 4 good DDs embrava and haste that NM dies in less than 15 seconds. Take a DRK if you need stuns. Stun and Weapon bash will get you through pretty much anything if you are killing fast enough.

[katz]

I dont mind the 3rd party users so long as they use them and then go away to leave the rest of us to do it the right way. They are the ones that will get burnt out off the game because they dont take time to enjoy it to its full extent. I dont care what other people have, I assume they all cheated if they get it the first week of release or that they just dont have any social life in real life....I play the game to enjoy it, not to crow like a hen says im better than you because I have it first or I am first in x. If you dont enjoy the game and just want to rush it to completion then why play it at all.......

[Luvbunny]

People cheat when the content is almost impossible to beat without it. And people prefer certain jobs when it is obvious they give you massive advantages over other jobs. I call it that the developer did not do enough balancing of the contents and create a rushed half baked creation. I have a feeling they are doing their very best to stall us with contents that are impossible to beat so that they can string us along for another 6-9 months. So far they are doing very minimal adjustments for the neo nyzul, void watch and legion, and just giving us promises after promises. This anniversary thing better be beyond amazing - otherwise this year is going to be very disappointing with lackluster contents and the bare minimal efforts from developer to address player's feedback and suggestion. I call it now - nothing good will come this year - since it is very clear that SE is not giving the FFXI team any more funds to expand the current team members to address all the various problems that need to be resolved. Just kill the FF14 version 2.0 now, put your money on the project that actually bring you money and please give the FFXI more budget.

[MrPeet]

Would like to see a response either take away the need for third party tools or by banning and monitoring. I like Nyzul isle. I want to get to floor 100 using xbox 360 its possible i know it is, can you imagine the feeling of getting there legit?

[Kaisha]

If they'd address the order lamps being completely stupid and a total waste of time with the order figuring out and the 30s cooldown on failed attempt, people would actually be able to beat this with a little luck.

And unfortunately those lamps are not even a problem for the folks cheating, so what's the point of having them in the first place if they're not truly randomized?

Is there a reason why every lamp floor can't have an optional objective to clear the floor instead if the devs refuse to make the order-lamps less asinine?