Thie... Treasure Hunter ideas

[AyinDygra]

Steal and Mug have been put on a very long recast timers making Thief into more of an assassin during gameplay. I say we need more stealing or shall I say, "Treasure Hunting" by Thieves during battle. To avoid impacting the economy with all those new items being stolen, the stolen items don't have to be real items or have gil value.

Job Ability: Snatch
Level 10
Recast: 1min (or less)
This version of steal allows thieves to acquire "temporary items" from monsters, like potions or grenades.
* These items will disappear once you change zones.
* Temporary items can be stolen numerous times during the same battle, if it goes long enough. Only one of each temporary item can be held at any one time.
* All Thieves can steal these temporary items from the same monster. (no limit aside from the recast timer, and the chance to get the item each time)
* Certain actions performed against a monster might change the temporary items available from them.
* Not all items need to be useful to Thieves. Since the ability is usable as a subjob, a whole variety of items could be obtained.

FF Tactics and FFX/X-2 both introduced several things that thieves can steal that are not items.

---

Job Ability:Borrowed Time
In the past, this has added Stop to the target. In FFXI, this could add slow to the enemy, and haste to the thief. (small amounts, roughly 5% max to each) With multiple thieves, there should be a cap on how much slow can be added to the enemy, but each thief should benefit from the haste even if it doesn't add the slow in those cases.

---

Job Ability:Stolen Heart
In the past, this has been a version of charm. It has been suggested by others, that this would be a form of hate manipulation in FFXI, causing the enemy to love instead of hate the Thief. This could simply be a way to stop a battle and get away. The enemy may give the Thief a gift.

---

Job Ability:Pilfer HP
Job Ability:Pilfer MP
These would be physical ways to steal HP and MP, instead of magical. They wouldn't be nearly as strong as the spells Drain and Aspir, but could prove useful in certain situations, especially if they were usable as /Thf also (some jobs have more use for MP than others)

---

In past FF games, Thieves protected the entire party from "back attacks" with this trait:

Job Ability: Caution
Level 30
Reduces the chance of being hit by critical hits. (greatly lower enemy critical hit rate)
* Effects the entire party, like "circle" abilities.
* Perhaps add: Increases defensive skill activation rate. (Shield, Guard, Parry, Evade)

---

Job Ability: Entice (or Lure)
Level 10
Effect Duration: 5sec Recast: 3min
Ranged job ability, like Provoke.
This ability claims the enemy like provoke, without as much hate generation. For the duration of this effect, the enemy will not link other enemies and will not attack or cast on the person it now chases.
* The effect wears off once any other aggressive action has been performed against it.
* Only works on monsters without hate of any sort.
* Anything "Impossible to Gauge" is immune to the effect.

Many times people have to wait for monsters to wander far enough away from each other before pulling to avoid links. This time spent waiting can easily break XP chains. Any monsters aggressive to sound are especially annoying. The purpose of this ability is to allow Thieves (or people who sub thief) to pull monsters that would ordinarily link.

---

Job Ability: Distract
Level 40
Duration: 30sec
Recast: 2min
Removes position restrictions on all actions taken against the distracted target. (Sneak attack, Overwhelm, Closed Position, etc)
* Allows solo thieves to use sneak attack.
* May disable or lower the enemy's defensive abilities for a short duration (Shield, Guard, Parry, Evade, Counterattack).
* Increases success rate of stealing abilities. (Steal, Mug, etc)

---

Adjustment: When Thieves get Treasure Hunter II, allow Mug to inflict an attack while stealing. (does not apply to Thief used as a subjob)

~*~

Just some ideas I had to make thieves more "Treasure Hunter"-y and less Assassin-ish.

[Strife]

Some of these are already being discussed in other forums. TH is being discussed in the forum above this one which has also branched off into discussing several THF abilities especially steal & mug.


Job Ability: Snatch
Level 10
Recast: 1min (or less)
This version of steal allows thieves to acquire "temporary items" from monsters, like potions or grenades.

I just posted a similar suggestion in the forum above this lol. Though I think being able to steal an unlimited amount of temp items & every minuet might unbalance things, especially if they're powerful items.


Job Ability:Borrowed Time
In the past, this has added Stop to the target. In FFXI, this could add slow to the enemy, and haste to the thief.

Despoil already has a chance -crappy though it is-to add slow depending on mob. A haste ability would be nice though.


Job Ability:Stolen Heart
....This could simply be a way to stop a battle and get away. The enemy may give the Thief a gift.

THF already has flee & hide to escape battles though admittedly these aren't always 100% effective. I'd like to see a beastman after trying to rape my ass stop & give me a brightly wrapped present just for lolz or a mandy give me a flower just for cutez. Though would you want some of the things monsters would try & give you? I mean my cat brings me 'presents' all the time I'd rather not receive.


Job Ability:Pilfer HP

I actually posted a similar idea to this as part of my post on the dual wield forum (sounds like a strange place to post it I know but the discussion there has also branched off into various THF related issues). I think having a way for THF to recover some HP besides bolts which aren't as effective as they used to be would be great.


Job Ability: Entice (or Lure)...
...The purpose of this ability is to allow Thieves (or people who sub thief) to pull monsters that would ordinarily link.

Would be handy but I think if SE wanted people to be able to pull easily without linking they wouldn't have made mobs link to begin with :(


Job Ability: Distract
Level 40
Duration: 30sec
Recast: 2min
Removes position restrictions on all actions taken against the distracted target. (Sneak attack, Overwhelm, Closed Position, etc)

This I really like, being able to use SA solo other than as an initial attack or with hide would be awesome. Would also be great for avoiding SA misses when someone turns the mob right before you WS.. because someone always does..

I would ATLEAST like to see SE alter the range for TA, do you have any idea how hard it can be to TA a moving taru especially if they're surrounded by other players or mobs SE? Well do you?! :mad:

[Arcon]

Would be handy but I think if SE wanted people to be able to pull easily without linking they wouldn't have made mobs link to begin with :(

Well, you can already do something similar with SMNs, the famous "carby pull". I think this is a good idea, several jobs have the ability to bend normal game-dynamics, I don't see anything fundamentally wrong with that. However, might be hard to implement.


This I really like, being able to use SA solo other than as an initial attack or with hide would be awesome. Would also be great for avoiding SA misses when someone turns the mob right before you WS.. because someone always does..

Also sounds great, but again, might be hard to implement.


I would ATLEAST like to see SE alter the range for TA, do you have any idea how hard it can be to TA a moving taru especially if they're surrounded by other players or mobs SE? Well do you?! :mad:

I agree, SA/TA should both have melee WS range, would alleviate that problem.

[Ezikiel]

Steal and Mug have been put on a very long recast timers making Thief into more of an assassin during gameplay. I say we need more stealing or shall I say, "Treasure Hunting" by Thieves during battle. To avoid impacting the economy with all those new items being stolen, the stolen items don't have to be real items or have gil value.

Job Ability: Snatch
Level 10
Recast: 1min (or less)
This version of steal allows thieves to acquire "temporary items" from monsters, like potions or grenades.
* These items will disappear once you change zones.
* Temporary items can be stolen numerous times during the same battle, if it goes long enough. Only one of each temporary item can be held at any one time.
* All Thieves can steal these temporary items from the same monster. (no limit aside from the recast timer, and the chance to get the item each time)
* Certain actions performed against a monster might change the temporary items available from them.
* Not all items need to be useful to Thieves. Since the ability is usable as a subjob, a whole variety of items could be obtained.

FF Tactics and FFX/X-2 both introduced several things that thieves can steal that are not items.

---

Job Ability:Borrowed Time
In the past, this has added Stop to the target. In FFXI, this could add slow to the enemy, and haste to the thief. (small amounts, roughly 5% max to each) With multiple thieves, there should be a cap on how much slow can be added to the enemy, but each thief should benefit from the haste even if it doesn't add the slow in those cases.

---

Job Ability:Stolen Heart
In the past, this has been a version of charm. It has been suggested by others, that this would be a form of hate manipulation in FFXI, causing the enemy to love instead of hate the Thief. This could simply be a way to stop a battle and get away. The enemy may give the Thief a gift.

---

Job Ability:Pilfer HP
Job Ability:Pilfer MP
These would be physical ways to steal HP and MP, instead of magical. They wouldn't be nearly as strong as the spells Drain and Aspir, but could prove useful in certain situations, especially if they were usable as /Thf also (some jobs have more use for MP than others)

---

In past FF games, Thieves protected the entire party from "back attacks" with this trait:

Job Ability: Caution
Level 30
Reduces the chance of being hit by critical hits. (greatly lower enemy critical hit rate)
* Effects the entire party, like "circle" abilities.
* Perhaps add: Increases defensive skill activation rate. (Shield, Guard, Parry, Evade)

---

Job Ability: Entice (or Lure)
Level 10
Effect Duration: 5sec Recast: 3min
Ranged job ability, like Provoke.
This ability claims the enemy like provoke, without as much hate generation. For the duration of this effect, the enemy will not link other enemies and will not attack or cast on the person it now chases.
* The effect wears off once any other aggressive action has been performed against it.
* Only works on monsters without hate of any sort.
* Anything "Impossible to Gauge" is immune to the effect.

Many times people have to wait for monsters to wander far enough away from each other before pulling to avoid links. This time spent waiting can easily break XP chains. Any monsters aggressive to sound are especially annoying. The purpose of this ability is to allow Thieves (or people who sub thief) to pull monsters that would ordinarily link.

---

Job Ability: Distract
Level 40
Duration: 30sec
Recast: 2min
Removes position restrictions on all actions taken against the distracted target. (Sneak attack, Overwhelm, Closed Position, etc)
* Allows solo thieves to use sneak attack.
* May disable or lower the enemy's defensive abilities for a short duration (Shield, Guard, Parry, Evade, Counterattack).
* Increases success rate of stealing abilities. (Steal, Mug, etc)

---

Adjustment: When Thieves get Treasure Hunter II, allow Mug to inflict an attack while stealing. (does not apply to Thief used as a subjob)

~*~

Just some ideas I had to make thieves more "Treasure Hunter"-y and less Assassin-ish.

i think entice is a great idea i know smns can do it but i think THF would be great going back as puller

[LordTrey]

I much prefer the current position of THF as one of the best damage dealers over spending time pulling. Let BRDs and other support type jobs do the pulling. Damage dealers should be doing the killing.

[Pesh]

i think entice is a great idea i know smns can do it but i think THF would be great going back as puller

No. No. No. No. No!

When I'm in an Abyssea party (rare now because I have nothing left to merit), I will solo my own mob in about the same time it takes 6 idiots to whack away at another one. Sending me out to pull would considerably slow down kill speeds and exp rates.

In fact, I'd ask every party invite if I'd have to pull. If they said yes, I'd tell them to kick rocks and have a nice life.

Don't degrade the fact that THF has been elevated to one of the highest damage dealers after being crapped on for so long. We should not be pulling because we're already tanking. It's ignorant comments like this that make me hate other Thieves.

[Ezikiel]

No. No. No. No. No!

When I'm in an Abyssea party (rare now because I have nothing left to merit), I will solo my own mob in about the same time it takes 6 idiots to whack away at another one. Sending me out to pull would considerably slow down kill speeds and exp rates.

In fact, I'd ask every party invite if I'd have to pull. If they said yes, I'd tell them to kick rocks and have a nice life.

Don't degrade the fact that THF has been elevated to one of the highest damage dealers after being crapped on for so long. We should not be pulling because we're already tanking. It's ignorant comments like this that make me hate other Thieves.

LOL you have got to be kidding me how about you just say no if u don't want to pull. Don't restrict other people because u dont wanna fill a job roll. Some thieves like to pull, hell some thieves specialize in Dynamis pulling for currency

[AyinDygra]

Entice would not be very useful to today's parties in Abyssea, where multiple enemies are pulled all the time. People would rather have a bunch of enemies slept and ready to be killed, so pulling one at a time is inefficient in the area you seem to be expressing concern about.

Notice the level for obtaining Entice: 10 ... this is mainly for party use, outside of Abyssea, pulling in places like Crawler's nest or anywhere else linking is an issue. It's true there are not many parties at low levels anymore, but there are still other uses for it.

Entice would also be useful when you want to solo enemies that link (anywhere in the game.)

[Ezikiel]

Entice would not be very useful to today's parties in Abyssea, where multiple enemies are pulled all the time. People would rather have a bunch of enemies slept and ready to be killed, so pulling one at a time is inefficient in the area you seem to be expressing concern about.

Notice the level for obtaining Entice: 10 ... this is mainly for party use, outside of Abyssea, pulling in places like Crawler's nest or anywhere else linking is an issue. It's true there are not many parties at low levels anymore, but there are still other uses for it.

Entice would also be useful when you want to solo enemies that link (anywhere in the game.)

i Dual box in abyssea at times and a hate free pull would be nice its not only geared towards abyssea. i love abyssea too but there are other things on this game

[Babygyrl]

No. No. No. No. No!

When I'm in an Abyssea party (rare now because I have nothing left to merit), I will solo my own mob in about the same time it takes 6 idiots to whack away at another one. Sending me out to pull would considerably slow down kill speeds and exp rates.

In fact, I'd ask every party invite if I'd have to pull. If they said yes, I'd tell them to kick rocks and have a nice life.

Don't degrade the fact that THF has been elevated to one of the highest damage dealers after being crapped on for so long. We should not be pulling because we're already tanking. It's ignorant comments like this that make me hate other Thieves.

I understand how you feel but pulling is always been part of a thiefs job.. at least in ffxi it has been.. i enjoy pulling entice would be a nice thing for that to use. It would also be great for theifs who enjoy tanking too.if it would work like voke that is.. not if it were hate free though id rather have it cause hate this way if i need to be healed for some reason its not automatically after my healer..

[Imole]

Id like to have an Enmity Douse ability like BLM has not every situation wanrants you getitng and holding hate. It would be nice to let that 4k eviseration hate disapear...

[Pesh]

LOL you have got to be kidding me how about you just say no if u don't want to pull. Don't restrict other people because u dont wanna fill a job roll. Some thieves like to pull, hell some thieves specialize in Dynamis pulling for currency

Yes, I do say no. Dynamis pulling is one thing.

Pulling for an exp party when a lesser DD or support job can do it is something else.

Back when our damage wasn't great, sure I could justify pulling, but in exp parties I am top of the parse and I tank about 3/4 of the time, hence my refusal to pull.

To prove a point, I've pulled hate and then ran off to pull the next mob while letting whatever we were fighting chase me. Party leaders learn pretty quick the value of a heavy DD THF; if they don't, well their alliances aren't worth staying in.

Filling a job roll, what are you a pink gear wearing THF? Get full AF3+2 and some of the best daggers you can get and you'll quickly understand why I don't pull.

[Arcon]

Yes, I do say no. Dynamis pulling is one thing.

Pulling for an exp party when a lesser DD or support job can do it is something else.

Back when our damage wasn't great, sure I could justify pulling, but in exp parties I am top of the parse and I tank about 3/4 of the time, hence my refusal to pull.

To prove a point, I've pulled hate and then ran off to pull the next mob while letting whatever we were fighting chase me. Party leaders learn pretty quick the value of a heavy DD THF; if they don't, well their alliances aren't worth staying in.

Filling a job roll, what are you a pink gear wearing THF? Get full AF3+2 and some of the best daggers you can get and you'll quickly understand why I don't pull.

Why are you even in an alliance? You can solo 80k/hr and spam amber lights for TE/KI farm as THF.

Pulling isn't for EXP only, nor is EXP a major part of the game to get so upset about. Regardless, THF is still one of the best pullers, Flee and train 10 mob, takes less than 20 seconds, I do it frequently even when I'm DDing and it still doesn't gimp my damage much, probably enhances overall alliance damage output, if you have slow pullers.

Also, I'm annoyed when I do highest damage as THF in alliance, because despite its recent boost in damage, it's still far from the best DD when other people play their jobs right. If you keep saying that, then you either don't play your other jobs to their full potential or don't know anyone else who does. WAR, DRG, MNK, NIN, PUP, even DNC can all outdo THF, maybe even a great SAM. People like to boast about critical WS for ~3k damage, when SAM can spam non-critical YGKs for over 2k.

Some THFs need to realize that they're neither the best DD nor the best tank, nor the best combination of both. Sometimes THFs do need to fill other job roles, regardless of their gear and skills. And Entice would be great for pulling in certain situations, pulling in Dynamis/Limbus/Einherjar or pulling NMs in Abyssea that would normally link with other mobs in that area, there's plenty of uses for it.

And regardless of all that, even if Abyssea EXP was the only thing you could possibly pull for, how would this ability make it any worse? You think leaders will make you pull because of it? Why would they want you to pull link-free, when you should normally get a bunch of mobs to sleep/hold and then kill?

Also, if you wanna do best damage, you do not want full AF3+2.

[LordTrey]

There is always a worse DD than a THF (as a job) is some pickup abyssea alliance. And there are NON dd job that are great at pulling an should be doing all of it. THF hasn't needed to pull in years, abyssea just makes this even more the case.

Personally I don't like pullers that can't sleep mobs. I hate to need to use the attention of 2 players to do the pulling of 1.

[Delvish]

There is always a worse DD than a THF (as a job) is some pickup abyssea alliance. And there are NON dd job that are great at pulling an should be doing all of it. THF hasn't needed to pull in years, abyssea just makes this even more the case.

Personally I don't like pullers that can't sleep mobs. I hate to need to use the attention of 2 players to do the pulling of 1.
Two things on this statement.
1. Pulling is an excellent way to cap out your evasion skill after updates. Quite frequently I was in Aby-Tahrongi pulling Mandies up to 4-5 at a time and purposefully Aeolian Edging them all to come to me while the rest of the group focused on one or two at a time. Granted, the entire purpose was evasion skill-ups and there are plenty of other methods of doing so, this worked best for me.
2. Outside of BRD, no other job can effectively pull and sleep multiple mobs at once (or at least not without a significant degree of risk). BLM or SCH in particular, because all it takes is a poorly timed interrupt and now all 3ish mobs are attacking you and constantly interrupting. I find that THF, DNC, PLD, and/or NIN are among the best pullers for multiple mobs unless you have a dedicated sleeper (then any job will suffice).
Yes, we can be doing something else better, but talking specifically pulling jobs those four are the most efficient in loo of a sleeper. PLD probably more-so than others because they fail at anything else.

[Pesh]

Also, if you wanna do best damage, you do not want full AF3+2.

In full AF3+2, you are at 23% haste, so yes you are losing 2.5ish% haste by not wearing a piece of Homam, BUT... the additional 5% activation rate on set bonus when you already Triple Attack 30-35% of the time FAR outweighs the loss of Haste. Honestly, I'd like you to show me a better TP set-up.

And if you think I'm weapon skilling in full AF3+2, then you are sorely mistaken.

THF is a job about maximization. Wearing gear that works best in WHATEVER situation you're in. My gear sets are as follows:

TP
WS
Evasion
Utsusemi
TH
MDT
Ranged Attack (Yes, for those times where you do have to throw the boomerang at something).

And for the record I do solo my exp/merits/cruor/gil. I get a BLM buddy of mine to cap my Azure lights for me (afterward he switches to a leech job), then I'll chill in Tahrongi and chest farm Chloris/Glavoid/Lacovie pops til I'm happy.

[Strife]

Pulling isn't for EXP only, nor is EXP a major part of the game to get so upset about.
Very true, my group usually use THF or NIN to pull large groups of mobs in Abyssea for Fell Cleave. Our evasion & flee make us best suited for this, of course entice wouldn't be useful in this situation but it might be for a situation where you are pulling a NM but can't wait for a clean pull because there's competition -and there is a lot of competition for KI NMs in Abyssia can't wait for server merge, thanks a lot SE you know just how to ruin a guys day ; ;- though even in these situations links can be slept or the THF can run of & de-pop them or die. Entice would be useful but I don't think it's all that necessary.

I agree with Pesh in one respect though I hate pulling in XP parties especially since I am often tanking the mob, let a lesser DD do it, at least then you wont get a Benny Hill scene with the THF running away to pull & the mob running after them followed by the rest of the alliance following the mob lol.

Some THFs need to realize that they're neither the best DD nor the best tank, nor the best combination of both.
This is true in a general sense but often -and especualy in XP parties- the other jobs that are designed to be heavier DD aren't geared/ being played as well as the THF so the THF beats them hands down, you need to look at the strengths & weakness of the people in your party & play to them.


PLD probably more-so than others because they fail at anything else.
LOL.

[AyinDygra]

Given the replies so far are directed mostly at Entice (I should have probably put that in the middle of the group, since people seem to latch onto the last idea presented in groups, even if it's the least important of the bunch), I'm guessing most liked the new options to steal temporary items and intangibles. I hope SE also thinks thieves should be stealing more often and more things. That being the case, Caution and Distract are two of my favorite ideas for Thief, bringing back a useful trait that made me more likely to make one of my characters a Thief in past games and an ability that allows Thief to use its abilities in not-so-perfect situations.

---

Hopefully, those new steal abilities WILL allow thieves to focus on being better damage dealers. Clearly "Snatch" would be dependent on what SE's monster designers make available to be stolen from each monster (probably family-based at first, to make the ability usable on all monsters, aside from NMs that could have unique items and battle dynamics). In this way, snatch could present new opportunities to enhance THF damage potential on NMs in the form of temp items normally found only in special battlefields.

Snatch considerations: I'm not saying monsters would give you a revitalizer every 1min or something crazy, but I could see a lower powered/duration version of stalwart's tonic, a +5 stat version of Braver's drink that has a lower duration, as well as little potions (as you may remember most monsters in FF6 dropped potions.) Beastmen may have items like grenades and bombs (Qiqirn). Now, I wouldn't be opposed to another adjustment to the "Snatch" command: Temporary Items gained through this command, once used, could potentially reset the "snatch" cooldown timer to higher than 1min, if they're stronger items. Just a thought, to keep it from being "overpowered."

---

Another idea I had tossed around would be a steal command like "Sabotage" that could do unique things to newer monsters, especially NMs, changing the mode of an enemy. Notice how this could be integrated into 2 existing examples of monster behavior:
* Mamool Ja, Qutrub, Lamia and Imp enemies: you could Sabotage their weapons without needing to break the weapon with a crit.
* Acroliths: you could Sabotage them by making them blow up parts of their body, disabling different special attacks.
A couple new examples:
* The Bird family: you could Sabotage their flight feathers, decreasing their attack speed.
* The Uragnite family: You could sabotage their shell, reducing their physical damage resistance.

To make the "Sabotage" idea work, it would be best if alternate methods of changing the monsters modes existed, as can be demonstrated with the Mamool Ja (crits) and Acroliths (body parts are blown up by the NM's own actions). In this way, groups that do not include a Thief could still benefit from these monster quirks, but including a Thf would make them triggerable.

edit: the more I think about Sabotage, the more it sounds like a way to make Despoil more useful. Of course, I'd like to see Despoil's timer split from steal as well, especially if this effect is added to it. Then... maybe make Sabotage a 99Merit Trait that adds this effect to Despoil, although, I'd like to see this in use before level 99.

---

Just some more thoughts.

[Karbuncle]

Also, if you wanna do best damage, you do not want full AF3+2.

Mmmm, I think you've heard wrong :\, Even the best math i found were either in favor of AF3+2 or Too close to be able to tell which might be better.

Now, Inside Abyssea (only, Inside Abyssea, And thats with Atma of the apoc, Full Triple Attack Merits, Eponas/Triplus Dagger so you have a Triple Attack rate of about 34%) Full AF3+2 Beats out other builds. (In my opinion, and in some math)

You can Also reach up to 24% Haste with this, 25% if you wanna get gimpy on your weapons, With that build you're better off with the 24% Haste (Full +2, Twilight Belt, Tiercal Necklace). This is making you lose 1.?% of Haste, But you also gain nearly 2x Activation rate for Set bonus. (As far as all of my tests show, 4/5+2 gives only 3% Act. rate, where as 5/5 Gives about 6%, (largest variations were 5.3% and 7.1%) Doubling your odds or more).

Outside of Abyssea, Entirely different story, As your Triple Attack rate significantly lowers (15% lower because of Apoc Loss).

So really its a matter of Opinion, i for one take the idea of Full+2 and hit 24% haste and I'm okay with that. Others might not. But to reiterate, most math i see on the subject (There was a thread on FFXIAH, You'd have to look it up...) It was either in favor of +2 or closer to even where either set would get the job done.

Of course you would want to put on Full-haste for recasting shadows and such, No question. and (Dur) normal SA/TA/etc Set swaps.

[Arcon]

In full AF3+2, you are at 23% haste, so yes you are losing 2.5ish% haste by not wearing a piece of Homam, BUT... the additional 5% activation rate on set bonus when you already Triple Attack 30-35% of the time FAR outweighs the loss of Haste. Honestly, I'd like you to show me a better TP set-up.

It's 16% haste in full AF3+2. I assume you counted Twilight Belt, although there's really no reason to use it on THF. AF3+2 head, body and legs, Homam Manopolas, Ballerines, Tiercel Necklace, Nusku's Sash. Any dagger combination between Auric, Triplus, Twilight and Rapidus works about equally well (personally I use Auric/Rapidus, may change Rapidus for Triplus when I get it). This puts you both at near cap haste and near capped Dual Wield bonus for THF (capped in both if using Auric/Rapidus).

Also, even if you were using Twilight Belt for Haste, the set bonus would in no way outweigh the loss of haste. Remember that 5% activation rate only activates on 5% of Triple Attacks. Which are (optimistically speaking) 20% of your total attacks. So that 5% activation rate gives you only a bonus in 1% of all attack rounds, less than 1 in 100. Meanwhile 2% haste will give you 23% vs 25% haste, meaning that even without any DW bonus and without any haste from spells (and the more you get, the more you will notice the effect), you'd get a bonus 2+ attack rounds in 100 rounds. Which makes this at least 2 times better than fulltiming AF3+2 (as in, 2 times the bonus damage), and remember that you only need one slot to get the additional 2% haste. Which means you still have another slot you can fill with accuracy, attack or whatever else you need.


THF is a job about maximization. Wearing gear that works best in WHATEVER situation you're in. My gear sets are as follows:

TP
WS
Evasion
Utsusemi
TH
MDT
Ranged Attack (Yes, for those times where you do have to throw the boomerang at something).

Hope you mean Ranged Accuracy. But that just what I wanted to say.. not only gear should adapt to the situation you're in, but also your playstyle. Sure, often your THF may be the best DD in the bunch, sometimes I'm sure it isn't. Sometimes a THF plays other roles. And pulling may be one of those. Even inside Abyssea on occasion, although I'm not even referring to that, there's a whole bunch of situations outside of Abyssea when this ability may come in handy, and I'm sure even more such situations will be introduced in future expansions or add-ons.

Edit: I didn't consider Atma of the Apocalypse, as I was referring to THF DD in general, not just inside Abyssea. Even with that though, it's still not better:

35%*5% = 1.75%, still less than 1 in 50 activation rate, whereas 2% haste will give you more than 1 attack round in that time. Remember this is only with 0% haste from Spells or other means, the more you get from those sources, the more it will matter. But even in solo efforts, it's slightly better than full AF3+2 with only the Haste-pieces from the set.

[Karbuncle]

Hmmm, From your stand point, What do you feel the best THF Set would be then for general Melee? It won't get me out of 24% Haste and 5/5+2 inside of Abyssea, but outside I'm still in debate on the best combo.

You can link me to a FFXIAH Item Set.

[Arcon]

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/205523

1st option:
This set has 30% Dual Wield (40% with /NIN), 24% Haste.

2nd option:
Full AF3+2 with Twilight Belt would have 25% Dual Wield (35% with /NIN), 24% Haste.

3 AF3+2 pieces vs. 5 AF3+2 pieces. Since it hasn't been measured enough to determine the exact proc rate, we'll just go with 5% difference between those two (although current testing suggests it to be even lower). So assuming 5% with 3/5, 10% with 5/5.

Now with option 1, we would have (1-0.4)*(1-0.24) = 45.6% delay. Option 2 would be at (1-0.35)*(1-0.24) = 49.4% delay. Meaning, in 100 attacks option 1 would get 8 extra attacks in.

Assuming a 5% set activation rate for option 1, that would mean 35%*5% = 1.75% activation rate. Set 2 on the other hand would have 3.5% activation rate. When the effect activates, the second and third hit are tripled, offhand swing is swallowed, although I won't count that for now. That means a ~133% damage increase per activation (100% if you count the missing offhand swing).

So to compare..

1st option:
108 hits with 1.75% activation rate, so would activate on 1.89 hits, meaning..
Hits = (108-1.89) + (1.89*2.33) = 108 + 1.89*2.33 = 110.5

2nd option:
100 hits with 3.5% activation rate, so would activate on 3.5 hits, meaning..
Hits = (100-3.5) + (3.5*2.33) = 100 + 3.5*1.33 = 104.7

Which means in the same time, option 1 would give 5.5% more hits. Now remember, this is without consideration for the missing offhand hit, for the fact that it's quite probably a far lower activation rate than suggested here and for any kind of other Haste you get from spells or Haste Samba, which would make the difference in Dual Wield even stronger. Daggers don't matter for this, since all of these effects are applied to the number of hits, so it will scale to whichever weapon you use.

[Karbuncle]

Actually, All 3 Hits are "Tripled' not the second and third hit (That information is massively outdated)

I know it won't change the math much, But all 3 Hits of the Triple Attack do Triple Damage.

edit: Are you taking into account the adjusted proc rate of the Set bonus due to having 2 weapons (Dual wield) In which Triple attack can proc? Set Bonus can Proc Main or Off hand. That Essentially Doubles its possible activation rate yes :O?

[Arcon]

Actually, All 3 Hits are "Tripled' not the second and third hit (That information is massively outdated)

I know it won't change the math much, But all 3 Hits of the Triple Attack do Triple Damage.

Um... I didn't actually look stuff up, that was just my observation. I've seen it proc a lot so far and never seen three hits with high damage, always only two. Does it hide the third hit? I know I read somewhere it's only 2/3 hits, now I looked on wiki people saying 3/3 hits. I've never seen this happen before myself. Is that related to the missing offhand hit?


edit: Are you taking into account the adjusted proc rate of the Set bonus due to having 2 weapons (Dual wield) In which Triple attack can proc? Set Bonus can Proc Main or Off hand. That Essentially Doubles its possible activation rate yes :O?

It doesn't matter, it's still only 35% activation rate. Whether looking at each hand, or combined, only thing that matters is the number of total hits.

Assuming 100 total hits (single): 35%*100hits = 35hits
Assuming 50 hits with each hand: 35%*50hits + 35%*50hits = 35%*100hits = 35hits

So the same number of hits are candidates for the Triple Attack augment.

I still wanna recalculate with 3/3 hit activation (300% damage, so 200% bonus):

1st option:
108hits + 1.89hits*200% = 111.8hits

2nd option:
100hits + 3.5hits*200% = 107hits

So only 4.8% better instead of 5.5%, and still not accounting for any haste and other stuff, that would all count towards the 1st option without full AF3+2.

[Laphine]

oh i just posted my opinion over Nusku's sash in a ffxiah thread lol. I'm starting to favor it as well, reason being that the af bonus can't beat the 8% gain from extra 5 dw. Here it is (http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/19820/rudra-odd-builds/1/#1200483)

Your math isn't complete though Arcon, the numbers are actually smaller. You also need to factor that the af bonus won't happen on ws, so you need to multiply the gain by the dps % of our damage(60% to dps 40% to ws usually). I've mathed this on alla (http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?fjob=10&mid=1298029474242212549&page=1&howmany=50#msg1298823773161515028) some time ago.

The numbers i used were 5% proc with 5/5 af and 3% proc with 4/5, and also 44% triple and a fictional 27% triple.

Even tho the proc rate from 5/5 is bigger, we would need to use tiercel neck to keep up with haste instead of using an attack piece. But attack is still a very big deal to thf. So coupling the boost from love torque (or agasaya) + capped haste with the smaller 4 pieces proc rate will beat the big 5 af pieces boost. If only our af feet actually added something to increase our damage...well, we wouldn't have much reason not to go 5/5 af lol. But even so, if it was something like attack (that people usually over look) it would be well worth it to use 5/5 af. Of course, this is all taking those proc rates to the af boost.

But anyway, this is a nusku's discussion. And the gain from nusku's sash alone will beat the gain from going 4/5 af instead of 5/5. But we do have to sacrifice much to put nusku's to good use. Naming: our af hands. This is a really heavy piece on our arsenal, specially if we need that acc. If we happen to need the str to increase fstr...those hands achieve godhood... lol.

So yeah, i'll go after nusku's and put it to use against normal mobs and weak nms. But against a high tier nm, 4/5 af gogogo!

[Arcon]

I used big numbers specifically to give a bigger buffer, to tolerate a bigger margin of error. I also mentioned that in reality the numbers are even lower, which gives even less reason to use 5/5 AF3+2. Even 4/5 is overdoing it, the set I posted above is quite possibly the best THF melee set in the game. It's the reason why Tiercel Necklace skyrocketed in price, 'cause demand is higher than ever and you can't really obtain it anymore. And WS damage would be done in a different set anyway, since you can disregard Haste and Dual Wield completely for it, so only the melee part is relevant to look at and that was the only part I was considering for the total damage comparison. I tried to keep it as objective as possible, but that doesn't extend to WS, since they depend on the circumstances for the most part. My melee/WS ratio can range anywhere from 1 to infinity.

Also, this isn't really a Nusku's Sash discussion either, we did get quite off-topic with this.. which is why I used size 1 font to say that full AF3+2 isn't really the best melee set. I wouldn't mind discussing this more though, in it's seperate thread.

[Karbuncle]

Um... I didn't actually look stuff up, that was just my observation. I've seen it proc a lot so far and never seen three hits with high damage, always only two. Does it hide the third hit? I know I read somewhere it's only 2/3 hits, now I looked on wiki people saying 3/3 hits. I've never seen this happen before myself. Is that related to the missing offhand hit?

http://www.ffxiah.com/screenshots/54078 <<

Thats an Image of me procing THF Set Bonus on Sneak attack. So its proof 3/3, at least?

As far as Hiding third hit no. You may have just not been paying attention, Or Theres also the possibility that you need a certain number of pieces for it to work on all 3?

it would be interesting to test if you need a certain number of Pieces equipped for the Bonus to apply to all 3 hits.

Cause i DO recall that on the very first test ever done (I think with only 2/5 pieces) the picture clearly showed 2/3 Hits Proccing Set Bonus. So it could very well have just been a glitch, Or perhaps you do need more than a certain number of pieces.

Either Way, I don't think it'd favor 5/5 Enough to be worth redoing the math, As I don't think it would edge out a 4/5 Set. I'll still continue gimping myself and keep on my 5/5+2 and 24% Haste set up :|, But likely keep it to myself. I enjoy it, But I Know its mathematically futile.

[Laphine]

I only checked the last few posts before replying. The discussion at hand was about 4/5 af vs 5/5 vs mix match (nusku's). Sure it was't the objective of this thread, but you know, discussions evolve. As long as they don't go towards something negative (which would probably need the hands of moderators), it's all good, no? And this is not to say this topic wouldn't benefit with its own thread. Of course it would.

Anyway, if you are going to compare melee damage increase with melee damage increase, ok. But to compare the gain from something that only affects our melee damage (af bonus), with something that affects our whole damage (haste), you need extract from the melee damage increase its compromise to our overall damage. To illustrate:

Taking a 60% melee 40% ws split, if we do 600 melee damage we will do 400 ws damage. Now if we boost only our melee damage by 10%, making it 660 damage, it will provide an increase of (660+400)/(600+400) to our whole damage. 6% instead of 10%. Haste acts on our whole damage, an increase of 10% from haste would affect the 1000 damage, making it 1100.

So to effectivelly compare the af bonus increase with haste, which is a real trade-off by using 5/5 af, we need to factor this concept.

edit: @ Karb
it might have killed the mob before the 3rd proc? lol I wouldn't doubt. A full 3 hit proc can easily damage 50% of a normal mob hp.

[Corres]

one total crazy and idiotic idea:
when in an alliance with a thf and a ranger the thf increases the treasure hunter effect on the mob. TH level does not matter.

when THF has dealt a SA or TA and TH increased the rng would do Bounty shot and it would set the current TH-level (i.e. th-lvl-9) as a new base lvl. so when the Thief does SA and TA again the THF can increase the TH a lot more.

[Kasandaro]

one total crazy and idiotic idea:
when in an alliance with a thf and a ranger the thf increases the treasure hunter effect on the mob. TH level does not matter.

when THF has dealt a SA or TA and TH increased the rng would do Bounty shot and it would set the current TH-level (i.e. th-lvl-9) as a new base lvl. so when the Thief does SA and TA again the THF can increase the TH a lot more.

Except that if the THF lands a TH higher than II, iirc, Bounty Shot "has no effect." Wish it worked, though.

[LeaderofAtlantis]

As we approach the final levels, I would love to see the addition of perhaps a Pick Pocket Job Trait that increases steal and despoil rates naturally. We should be improving our stealing skills the higher we go in levels right?

[Pesh]

It's 16% haste in full AF3+2. I assume you counted Twilight Belt, although there's really no reason to use it on THF. AF3+2 head, body and legs, Homam Manopolas, Ballerines, Tiercel Necklace, Nusku's Sash. Any dagger combination between Auric, Triplus, Twilight and Rapidus works about equally well (personally I use Auric/Rapidus, may change Rapidus for Triplus when I get it).

Auric/Rapidus? Are you nuts? It isn't always about fast attacks. You need to justify the amount of damage you do per swing in relation to the TP you feed to the mob.

Secondly, Homam Manopolas? AF3+2 add 8 STR, 8 DEX, 12 Accuracy, 16 Attack... THF has always been cursed with a low attack rating, so its nice to have a piece of gear that gives us a pretty substantial boost.

The gear set-up you've listed sounds like you're focusing more on the fast attacks and neglecting the amount of damage you're dealing per attack.

Secondly, stacking DW gear lowers your TP gain per swing, so yes while you attack faster, you're still requiring more swings to get to 100.

Personally, I'd rather swing a tiny bit slower, hit harder and do massive WS damage compared to what sounds like a weaker set-up. Besides, the 31% TA and 20% DA rate makes up for the loss of 2.5% haste.

[Arcon]

Auric/Rapidus? Are you nuts? It isn't always about fast attacks. You need to justify the amount of damage you do per swing in relation to the TP you feed to the mob.

Auric/Rapidus is the fastest TP gain combination for THF (bar multihit weapons). With the set I posted above, it takes less than 15 seconds to get to 100% TP (without any supporters), which is 15% faster than Twilight/Triplus combination. Also you do most hits in that time (23 hits). And overall, you feed the mob least TP (because of the Subtle Blow on Auric for the most part), a total of 98.8% TP (in the time it takes me to get to 100% TP). Your proposed set deals 129.8% TP to the mob in the time it takes you to get to 100% TP, which is over 30% worse than mine.


Secondly, Homam Manopolas? AF3+2 add 8 STR, 8 DEX, 12 Accuracy, 16 Attack... THF has always been cursed with a low attack rating, so its nice to have a piece of gear that gives us a pretty substantial boost.

The gear set-up you've listed sounds like you're focusing more on the fast attacks and neglecting the amount of damage you're dealing per attack.

Yes, that's exactly what I do. Attack bonus is not nearly as important for THF as for other jobs, and even other jobs would profit from more haste over attack. People spend millions and devote months of farming and playing to get 1% or 2% Haste for a reason, because if you're not at cap, it is easily the best status attribute to push.


Secondly, stacking DW gear lowers your TP gain per swing, so yes while you attack faster, you're still requiring more swings to get to 100.

Yes, but with the lower delay it actually takes less time to get to 100% TP. Oddly enough, with Twilight/Triplus dagger, the 5% difference in Dual Wield from Nusku's Sash does not reduce your TP gain (4.49 TP/hit vs. 4.41 TP/hit, so rounded down both give 4.4 TP/hit), meaning you just attack faster, without sacrificing your TP gain. To prove a point though, let's look at the jump from 15% Dual Wield to 20% Dual Wield, which is more interesting. Assuming 24% Haste, Auric Dagger, Triplus Dagger, and 6 Store TP (from Rajas/Brutal) here's the stats from http://www.ffxiut.com/calc (if you wanna see for yourself).

20% Dual Wield:
Delay: 0.78 s
TP return: 4.5 TP/hit
x-Hit: 23 hits (22.2)
Time to 100% TP: 17.9 s
Enemy TP gain: 4.3 TP/hit
Total enemy TP: 98.8 TP

15% Dual Wield:
Delay: 0.85 s
TP return: 4.6 TP/hit
x-Hit: 22 hits (21.7)
Time to 100% TP: 18.7 s
Enemy TP gain: 4.8 TP/hit
Total enemy TP: 105.6 TP

Meaning not only do you get to 100% TP in less time, but also deal more damage in this shorter time because you're doing an additional hit. If you think the additional 16 Attack, which is less than 4% increase in your total Attack (and notice that a 4% increase in Attack does not mean a 4% increase in damage), during the melee phase makes up for a flat ~5% damage increase (not just melee, since you get to WS more often too), while also feeding less TP to the enemy (and have higher evasion too), then by all means, believe it. The math is there, make of it whatever you want.


Personally, I'd rather swing a tiny bit slower, hit harder and do massive WS damage compared to what sounds like a weaker set-up. Besides, the 31% TA and 20% DA rate makes up for the loss of 2.5% haste.

What does WS damage have to do with this? And I also have 31% TA and 11% DA (how the hell do you get 20%? There isn't that much DA gear for THF in the entire game), the only loss is 2% DA from Twilight Belt, from 13% to 11%.

I don't care much what it sounds like, the math is solid. You can play whichever way you want, the difference is marginal in the end, but don't talk down on others for their gear or playstyle.

Edit: Added values for enemy TP gain to the above example. There you can see that the latter would feed more TP to an enemey, give it 100% TP before you get that much. Without Auric Dagger the difference would be even higher.

[Karbuncle]

Attack is still useful for THF. You can immediately tell the difference between a THF using Mithkabob/nothing and a thief using Red Curry Buns, and the difference is Significant.

There is a certain point where you sacrifice too much for Attack speed. Using inferior weapons (Rapidus/Auric, as opposed to say, a STR-Magian) in the name of speed is one such going too far. you are significantly hindering your maximum possible damage-per-swing by equipping a weapon with 11 less base damage than a more useful counter-part (Rapidus vs. StR Magian), In theory your idea looks great, It shows you would attack faster so theoretically do more damage.

In practice I think if you had two THFs of the Same quality, one in your Gear set with Auric/Rapid, and one in a simple "Capped Haste" Gear set using proper weapons (for arguments Sake, STR-KILA/Triplus), You would either fall break even or the other THF would out-damage you because, You may get 4 more attacks per 100 as the other THF, but when the Other THF is hitting for 75+dmg more on Crits, its going to even out.
(Note: Not Exact Figures. Numbers Used were only as point making tools. not to be taken literally. These are not exact numbers).

I hope you see I'm only making an Observation based provided information, And I'm in no way attempting to Insult you, Your Intelligence, Or your play Style. I am Merely giving my opinion on the Situation and hope you can understand that. You're very Passionate about your Playstyle, and are a lot smarter than most THFs, for that i respect you.

[Arcon]

I hope you see I'm only making an Observation based provided information, And I'm in no way attempting to Insult you, Your Intelligence, Or your play Style. I am Merely giving my opinion on the Situation and hope you can understand that. You're very Passionate about your Playstyle, and are a lot smarter than most THFs, for that i respect you.

You never did anything like that, I was referring to Pesh. I know you're a nice guy ;p

Numbers however do matter, I did notice a slight increase in damage with Mithkabobs, mostly on WS, not on average hits, a bit more with Yellow Curry, didn't try Red Curry yet. I wouldn't even call that significant, as I said, personally I only noticed it on WS, not at all on melee hits, although I didn't parse it, but I guess I'll do that sometime soon.

And even Mithkabobs give 60 Attack (~15% increase over my standard Attack), not 16 (~4%), which should barely matter. A THFs crit damage is capped very low anyway (inside abyssea too, before damage increasing Atmas), not only because of generally low weapon damage, but also because of the inherently low weapon rank. Only Relic/Mythic/Empyrean and Angr Harpe exceed rank 4.

Here's a parse of my THF in Abyssea - Uleguerand killing Spectators (was for over 8 hours, with a couple of unexpected naps in between):
Target: Spectator
Accuracy: 10327/10870 (95.0%)
Damage Range: 17-200
Average: 49.5
Critical Hit Rate: 8269/10327 (80.0%)
Critical Hit Damage Range: 86-983
Critical Hit Average: 144.3
Total Damage: 1294437

(Notice the extremely beautiful accuracy and critical hit rate values^^)

I'll repeat that sometime soon with Attack food and see how it will affect the total results, but as you can see average critical hit damage is roughly 3x melee hit, so if you factor out the critical hit damage bonus (~38%), that brings it to pretty much 2.1x melee damage for critical hits. For that matter, I could also repeat it using the other setup with Twilight/Triplus and see how far I'll get. I don't have a Kila, but since I'll never get one, I can't really test that.

[Insaniac]

I believe twilight belt and a DW+Crit rate or DA augmented ACP body or Loki's (with abyssea crit rates) maths out slightly better than nusku's and empyrean body +2. Haven't done the specifics since the new body came out but it beat out Rapparee by quite a bit. I don't think the 1% haste and 5 skill would push it that much closer. Either way I won't be full timing a belly shirt any time soon =)

Edit: I run Mandau/Triplus so this math may not apply to you.

[Leylah]

In regards to current job abilities, I only have two complaints for THF.

Mug: Should also be able to use it on NPCs.
Steal: Should also work on AH. Let's face it, a Pyrosoul Ring is just too expensive nowadays.
Flee: After committing a crime, who escapes by foot nowadays? Flee should summon a getaway chocobo and last at least two minutes.

We need two new JAs!

Robbery: A more effective version of steal that works on NPC vendors with poor security personnel and no video cameras.
Grand Larceny: Available at lvl90. Stealing, pickpocketing and mugging are for noob THFs. It's time we start aiming bigger.

[Pesh]

And I also have 31% TA and 11% DA (how the hell do you get 20%? There isn't that much DA gear for THF in the entire game), the only loss is 2% DA from Twilight Belt, from 13% to 11%.


Atheling, Brutal, Twilight, VV = 20%

And if you're so hump happy over Homam Hands, why aren't you using Ocelot?

[Insaniac]

VV is only 5% DA but don't forget Epona's ring!

[Kaeoni]

After reading all this, I'll still continue to use my 25-26% haste builds because of how haste compounds.

For giggles did anyone remember Twilight daggers existence and how it can actually eliminate an entire attack round or 2? 20% TP drain activation. up to 10 tp.

[Arcon]

And if you're so hump happy over Homam Hands, why aren't you using Ocelot?

Because they look disgusting. Same as Ocelot Pants, which is why I even hate using them in my evasion set.

[Karbuncle]

To big to quote and no Spoiler Options on this Website :( <This is the post you posted after my last post :D

Convincing enough, Its refreshing to talk to someone who knows their stuff >.O

I'll probably fool around with my sets a bit, Hell i carry like 7 daggers with me at all times, i enjoy playing around with them. So I'll probably make a few different TP Sets to see what i like the best. I like my 5/5 Build but I wouldn't mind trying the Full Haste/Dual Wield Maximum Build you listed... Actually sounds quite intriguing.


Edit: Also, I simply love how Ocelot Looks, Maybe its because I'm a Mithra >.>; I'm just natural inclined to like feral-looking armor. The Pants are gaudy as FK but i like how the Gloves mesh.

[Laphine]

Nice that you are open to try new things indeed Arcon, and attack really is a big deal for thf. People generalize things too much. "you don't need acc, you don't need attack, yadda yadda". Bullshit.

I don't know for sure the amount of attack necessary to cap cratio on normal mobs. I've read things about 750-800. Thf/nin simply can't reach that, not without a "cheat" (stelwarts). With an attack atma + red curry bun we barely breach 700 attack. And we can't really count with stelwarts 100% of the time, specially not against nms.

If we are around 600ish attack, adding 50 attack with an atma is virtually the same boost we get from Nusku's sash (~8%). Not small at all. I've been defending RR/AO/Apoc as the single best atma combo for thf for this reason. Surely can't be used in every situation due the hp loss, but if your purpose is damage, the combo is unsurpassed.

So yeah, i believe your set is very close to the best we could get to dps against fodder mobs/weak nms. Best probably being something around dusk hands +1 for an extra oomph (attack again). I wouldn't doubt of other ways to tweak it around. But anyway, when it comes to big tough nms, or any mob with higher evasion, af hands shine. Its boost alone will beat that of Nusku's sash. Actually i calculated the difference between both sets (which i can show although i've done it on excel - so not many details) as being around 1% in nusku favor. This difference was small due attack starvation, acc being an issue af hands (not forgetting homam feet+love torque or agasaya) would just crush it.

[Pesh]

Because they look disgusting. Same as Ocelot Pants, which is why I even hate using them in my evasion set.

So vanity trumps effectiveness now?

[Arcon]

So vanity trumps effectiveness now?

Always did.