Battle Balance Adjustment: Resistance to Enfeebling Magic

[Bayohne]

Since increasing the level cap to 99, we have been making systematic adjustments to jobs, battles and various other parameters.

The reason being that since our original plan was to maintain the level cap at 75, it was necessary to make adjustments to allow continued growth up to level 99 and to be able to add other types of new content.

We plan on addressing the following three issues with the next round of adjustments.


Resistance to Enfeebling Magic
We will be removing the instances of enfeebling magic not taking effect on monsters and HNMs that have resistance to specific elements. A very small number of special monsters will maintain the ability to completely resist enfeeblement, but it will become possible to cast enfeebling spells on most monsters that used to resist outright.
※Spells will not take effect every time and spells may still be resisted if your enfeebling skill is low. Monsters with high resistance will be enfeebled for a shorter amount of time.



Cure Potency
Cure potency will be affected more significantly by healing magic skill. If a player has high healing magic skill, cure potency will be greatly increased, but low healing magic skill will have almost no effect on cure potency. The effect of skill level on cure potency will vary based on the type of cure, but cures lower than Cure V will be affected the most. Note that Curaga, Cura and Waltzes will not be affected.

Cure I-IV: Up to 1.4 times the normal cure potency
Cure V-VI: Almost no change

With this adjustment combined with the increase of cure potency mentioned earlier (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/20089), we would like to increase opportunities for mages jobs other than white mage to serve as healers.



TP Gained through Use of a Weaponskill
We will be adjusting the specs of save TP so that it serves as the minimum possible TP amount gained through using a weaponskill. In other words, the greater the amount of TP gained through the weaponskill and the save TP value itself will be the actual TP gained.

For example:

Save TP value is 20, TP gained through the weaponskill is 25: 25TP
Save TP value is 20, TP gained through the weaponskill is 15: 20TP
Save TP value is 20, weaponskill misses: 20TP

The TP gained after using a weaponskill will be more stable, but there will be fewer instances where players gain a very large amount of TP through one weaponskill. Also, with the adjustments to save TP, samurai’s job ability Hagakure’s save TP effects will be increased.


We would like the discussion in this thread focus on “Resistance to Enfeebling Magic” exclusively.

For the other two topics, please refer to the following threads:

Cure Potency
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/20485　
TP Gained through Use of a Weaponskill
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/20483

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Thank god, I'd rather partial resistance than complete resistance like it currently is.

All I can ask on top of this is: Will you possibly make to checks for Gravity so if the -movement speed doesn't hit the Evasion down has an additional chance to hit and activate without it.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Gravity is one status, Weight. The resistance to it by 99% of NMs just needs to be removed period. I'm somewhat okay if they think it's so broken it can't land on 1% of NMs but a blanket resistance by all of them post RoZ with what, 3 exceptions? was fucking terirble.

[Mageoholic]

Looks like it is still going to be hit or miss, not like Elemental where you can see a small-large resist. They are just removing the resistance entirely from certain NM's. A step in the right direction, but still a ways to go. Most notably being the RDM group 2 merits, of which Blind II being the highest priority no reason a Merit spell must be at 5/5 to match that of the level 44 ninja spell Kuryami.

Either increase the potency of the group 2 enfeebles, or attach enfeebling skill to the potency check to allow spells @ 1/5 merits to actually be noticeably stronger than their T1 versions. (WHM can land a para and slow that is statistically equal to Slow 2 and Para 2 at 1/5 merits for example. Slow>Slow II cap is all of .3 seconds difference, Para: Random is Random, slightly higher chance to proc with T2.)

A step in the right direction more work to do.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Gravity is one status, Weight. The resistance to it by 99% of NMs just needs to be removed period. I'm somewhat okay if they think it's so broken it can't land on 1% of NMs but a blanket resistance by all of them post RoZ with what, 3 exceptions? was fucking terirble.

I know, but it doesn't mean they can't change it.

Now we have tier II, they need to do something to make using it possible.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Considering who we're talking about, changing the spell and the status effect it inflicts is most likely not going to happen. Best hope is they just let it work like it's supposed to.

[Geabrielle]

Hurray! Hip Hip Hu-flippity-rray!!!!!

I'm so glad to see enfeebles are finally getting some attention at long last. That being said, I hope this includes a RDM's merit spells. These are the most insanely resisted out of the entire line of enfeebling magic. It would also be nice to have these converted into natural spells rather than meritable magic simply because of the introduction of the proc system. It forced a lot of RDMs to change their merit schemes simply to continue to be useful in Voidwatch, or just to be excluded entirely.

If I have to spend merits for group 2 can I please have Fencer and that attack/double attack bonus from Chimeric Floret? Or maybe even a job trait that enhances enfeebling potency or enspell damage. Or better still can our spikes and enspells spells have status effects ? Those kinds of things I'd love to blow merits on.

[Mageoholic]

Blaze Spikes is the only one of the spikes that doesn't have a status effect, however it does have a higher damage factor than either Ice (paralyze) or Shock (stun).

Enspell II's provide MEVA down, limited in use depending on the target you are fighting (and if it is wise to be in melee range or not), but beneficial if combined with Death Blossom, less MACC gear means more potency gear, for enfeebles, and nukes.

Merit spells need a massive change however, either drop them to scrolls or increase their potency. (especially Blind II).

[Geabrielle]

I agree with the Merit spells and since I just had to take blind 2 for voidwatch I had no idea it was that fail. I'd love for all of them to be converted to scroll. I do think you've a greater point on increases to potency,which would fall in line perfectly with the adjustments of the OP.

[Mageoholic]

Id like to see the potency increase myself, I think it is beneficial to not just RDM but everyone who casts enfeebles. In the absence of a RDM this would allow a SCH or WHM to apply stronger debuffs. Of course RDM would be the top of the class, as it should be with its A+ skill.

But man our group 2's suck. (Especially Blind II, mostly because Kuryami does the exact same thing, at lvl 44, with no dINT value associated to it, and not needing 220K Limit points to cap at its 30 ACC down).

All of them are stink @ 1/5 merits, There is no real benefit of going 5/5 in them (mostly because then you have to skip some.) Dia is probably the only one that has a solid use, because it is a static effect that is hands down better than the other spells. Bio is similar but Dia > Bio in most cases except solo/lowman (but sucks at 1/5 because of the duration issues.)

If SE could either buff these spells, change the group 2 merits, or allow for more points to go into group 2 (for all jobs) it would really help out.

[SpankWustler]

Not a lot of information, but this sounds like a huge improvement over total immunity.

[ManaKing]

I really hope they remember this for future content. It would be pretty pointless to open up Aby and VW now that they are winding down just so you can make it worthless for new content.

[saevel]

Part of me wants to jump for joy, but then I remember this is SE. They could of removed the resistance for the abyssea stuff and all the old stuff, but kept it on all the tier 3 / 5 / 6 Voidwatch mobs and Legion (a few select NMs).

I'll reserve my judgement for what we can see on the test server.

Ohh and we need more actual enfeebles to go along with the reduced resistance.

[tyrantsyn]

Well this is a welcome thing to see first thing in the morning. Let me just take a minute and reinforce some of the thing's that have already been mention here.

Merit spell's on RDM really do need attention. Having them start out as only merely as strong as there tier I counter part's just blow's. They should be double the strength after the first merit. And only get better every merit after that. I think i'll save my hip hip hurray's about the resistance thing til after we see the result's of the adjustment's.

I also Agree with Saevel, it's way past time to see some new enfeeble's. By now we should at least have a poison III. And some new debuff's against magical resistance and magical accuracy.

So as positive as this is, I look forward to hearing more news about enhancing magic next?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Well this is a welcome thing to see first thing in the morning. Let me just take a minute and reinforce some of the thing's that have already been mention here.

Merit spell's on RDM really do need attention. Having them start out as only merely as strong as there tier I counter part's just blow's. They should be double the strength after the first merit. And only get better every merit after that. I think i'll save my hip hip hurray's about the resistance thing til after we see the result's of the adjustment's.

I also Agree with Saevel, it's way past time to see some new enfeeble's. By now we should at least have a poison III. And some new debuff's against magical resistance and magical accuracy.

So as positive as this is, I look forward to hearing more news about enhancing magic next?

and Dispel II, or do Dispel to scale in the amount of debuff's it removed

300+ - 1 Debuff
400+ - 2 Debuff's
500+ - 3 Debuff's

[cidbahamut]

A very small number of special monsters will maintain the ability to completely resist enfeeblement,

No.

Remove all immunities from all monsters. No exceptions.

[tyrantsyn]

. A very small number of special monsters will maintain the ability to completely resist enfeeblement


I agree with Cid on this one, could you do the same for physical or magical damage. I know there's mobs that exists that have resistance to a extent. But not out right. Make enfeebling viable, not situation.

[Wesa]

Will this also apply to enfeebling-type spells from other jobs (ninjutsu, songs), or does it specifically apply only to Enfeebling Magic?

Also, does this address the issue where absolutely nothing "Impossible to Gauge" is vulnerable to Requiem at all?

[Kristal]

Gravity is one status, Weight. The resistance to it by 99% of NMs just needs to be removed period. I'm somewhat okay if they think it's so broken it can't land on 1% of NMs but a blanket resistance by all of them post RoZ with what, 3 exceptions? was fucking terirble.

Giving NMs different degrees of Movement Speed Down Reduction would allow Gravity to land for the Evasion Down without granting much, if any, movement speed reduction as well.


No.

Remove all immunities from all monsters. No exceptions.

Some immunities are to be expected. An Ice Elemental should be outright immune to Paralyze, but very resistant to Silence. And a cast-heavy NM would be expected to be immune to Silence (since it's an on-off debuff), but not to Paralyze or Slow.

[saevel]

I'm worried about how they'll implement it. NM's not only have resistance but they also have potency reduction. Example is paralyze, it can land on NM's but it'll rarely if ever proc. Cast it on a IT monster and it proc's constantly. I don't see NM's having 70+ MND over a level 107 monster. Instead SE just hard coded it to be floored proc rate even if it lands. Un-nerfing resistances would do nothing if the NM's still have floored potency.

Also, and this is to the CR / Dev's.

Will SE please introduce new enfeebles. We received a Gain / Boost line of spells to increase our stats, can we please have an identical line of spells to reduce the monster's stats. We need more enfeebles then lol-break / adle / gravity II, much more.

[cidbahamut]

Some immunities are to be expected. An Ice Elemental should be outright immune to Paralyze, but very resistant to Silence. And a cast-heavy NM would be expected to be immune to Silence (since it's an on-off debuff), but not to Paralyze or Slow.

No.

Immunities are a big part of how Red Mage got stuck in the hole it's currently living in. Implementing immunities in any capacity is irresponsible and risks development slipping back into its old patterns. Devs want something to be immune to an enfeeble? Too bad, you can only give it high resist rates.

[Mageoholic]

There has to be immunities. Now who should know better?

Im sorry but Elementals should be immune to their natural element, and Highly susceptible to their weakest element (Water>Fire, Fire = Fire) and neutral to all else.

Mobs have elemetal alignments (we have known this forever) and I can tell you for a fact it is true. ENblizz for example has (had at the time of testing im sure all are capped at the 95% limit now) a higher MACC rate on Colibri, while Wind is Resistant to it.

This should be carried forward. On non elemntal based mobs there should be a high level of resistance, on one element, but a high weakness to the opposing element (WATER > FIRE), with the rest neutral. Given a C skill you could argue that a High Resistance might be an A (meaning a RDM would need skill+MACC to have a high land rate) and a High Weakness Might be an E (or an F) allowing RDM to wear a large potency set.

The only issue I have with that is gear is cumbersome and dragging around 100 MND and 100Skill for unique casting is stupid. Enfeebling should see resistances both high low and in between, Elementals should be immune to their native element. But enfeebling skill should impact MACC and Potency. Having to carry 2 sets of gear for one spell set is silly.

Gear Sets.
Healing CP+
Nuking MAB+
TP = Haste+
WS = ATK+
Enhancing = Enhancing+
Enfeebling = Enfbeebling+, INT+, MND+

Lets lose those two last groups and have native Skill impact MACC and Potency, have INT and MND as secondary mods. Essentially it emphasizes the Skill levels RDM have (stronger magic on stronger foes.), It also provides more room for other gear, such as melee sets, and adds to the illusion of RDM being a versatile job.

This is essentially the same change that was made for healing magic, except you are adding potency to spells, VIA skill. This would be the most universally fair adjustment, as BLM WHM and SCH can all benefit from this as well, and RDM (being the naturally proficient enfeebler) will be a little better suited in newer harder content.

[Camate]

There were a few questions in regards to the enfeeble adjustments that we wanted to answer.

For those asking if additional effects on WS will rely on enfeeble skill once the adjustment takes place the answer is no, as the proc rate for a weapon skill’s additional effect is determined by the respective weapon’s skill rank (A, B, C, etc.)

In regards to whether or not these enfeeble adjustments would be applied to other enfeebling type effects from bloodpacts, songs, ninjutsu, and blue magic spells, etc, yes, these changes will be applied to any type of enfeebling effect that relies on skill. Also, automaton magic skill level will play a part in the calculation of enfeebles. However, additional effects on equipment (like Additional Effect: Silence) will not be subject to these adjustments.

When it comes to magic that enemies use, it will remain as it always has. These can be resisted through effects from bar-type spells, so they will not be affected by the adjustments.

[Economizer]

When it comes to magic that enemies use, it will remain as it always has. These can be resisted through effects from bar-type spells, so they will not be affected by the adjustments.

Woah, hold up. What kind of bar-type spells are you referring to? Barelement or barstatus? I know this is being somewhat semantic but we've had some confusion between the two in the past so it would be nice to have them identified separately unless referring to both.

I don't recall ever having seen a resist from a barstatus spell, only slightly shorter durations.

[Alhanelem]

Barstatus spells do give resist potential. All they do is increase the 'resist <status>' traits, effectively. The chance to fully resist is small but it is there. You have really never seen "Resist!" messages when enfeebles are cast on you before?

[Creelo]

Just want to give some recent personal feedback I have regarding this issue.

You know what's really lame? When fighting the VWNM Bhishani (Pixie) and over the course of four fights you get two HQ Light Elemental Bard Song hints.

Really? Light Elemental debuffs... on a Pixie... x.x Lovely.

So while Pixies may not completely resist light debuffs like Finale/Dark Threnody, they're pretty much coded to have a 95% resist rate since Pixies are Light/Wind based or somethin or other.

Basically here I am spamming the living crap out of Finale/Dark Threnody in close to the best debuffing set for Bard (in hindsight, I should have just casted in recast gear to spam more often, w/e x.x).

Every Finale/Dark Threnody just kept getting resisted, until at one point where I got hit with a stray Norn Arrows (AoE Dmg + Encumbrance). So now I'm devoid of all gear (and perhaps most importantly, my Gjallarhorn) and I figure I'll just keep casting Finale/Dark Threnody and funny enough, they both land.

Another similar example could be fighting Qilin and needing to land Slow/Elegy on it. I really hate situations like these. It's extremely frustrating when you work to have the gear for the best possible debuffing set (and in the case of Bard, have a Gjallarhorn), and monsters in situations like this will STILL resist you 95% of time.

When I have the same resist rate naked as I do with full debuffing gear and a Gjallarhorn... I think there's a problem.

[Ophannus]

Same goes for Wyvern breaths. Even with Threnody and San Ninjutsu, there's no way a Wyvern will use Lightning Breath on Qilin bwcause his Lightning Resistance is still going to be stronger than his Wind Resistance by probably about 200-300 which is more than Enspell II/Threnody/Ninjutsu/AMII will lower it by.

[SpankWustler]

In regards to whether or not these enfeeble adjustments would be applied to other enfeebling type effects from bloodpacts, songs, ninjutsu, and blue magic spells, etc, yes, these changes will be applied to any type of enfeebling effect that relies on skill. Also, automaton magic skill level will play a part in the calculation of enfeebles. However, additional effects on equipment (like Additional Effect: Silence) will not be subject to these adjustments.

I hope the the broken Blue Magic additional effects, such as those of Tourbillion and Barbed Crescent, are fixed by accident while stuff is being adjusted on purpose.

[Creelo]

Oh and also

Inb4 Requiem still doesn't land on anything of value.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Barstatus spells do give resist potential. All they do is increase the 'resist <status>' traits, effectively. The chance to fully resist is small but it is there. You have really never seen "Resist!" messages when enfeebles are cast on you before?

Only with "Bar-Element" up.

[Kristal]

Barstatus spells do give resist potential. All they do is increase the 'resist <status>' traits, effectively. The chance to fully resist is small but it is there. You have really never seen "Resist!" messages when enfeebles are cast on you before?

Never seen a barstatus spell give a Resist! message, unless player had the relevant trait/gear for it. I think those traits give a small % chance for an absolute Resist! as well as the more mundane magic resistance vs. a particular status effect also given by barstatus spells.


Which reminds me...
I think it would be a good idea to show special immunities in the chat log. If a monster is immune to a particular status effect or element, it should use the 'Resist!' or 'xxx has no effect' messages instead of the default resistance message. Even if absolute immunities are limited in the future.
Some kind of resistance gauge, like with fishing, would also be helpfull, although only if the target is particularly resistant to it.

[saevel]

Never seen a barstatus spell give a Resist! message, unless player had the relevant trait/gear for it. I think those traits give a small % chance for an absolute Resist! as well as the more mundane magic resistance vs. a particular status effect also given by barstatus spells.


Which reminds me...
I think it would be a good idea to show special immunities in the chat log. If a monster is immune to a particular status effect or element, it should use the 'Resist!' or 'xxx has no effect' messages instead of the default resistance message. Even if absolute immunities are limited in the future.
Some kind of resistance gauge, like with fishing, would also be helpfull, although only if the target is particularly resistant to it.

I have. 99 RDM/NIN vs Tunga with 500 enhancing magic for 150 Barstone + Barpetrify. He chainspelled Break / Breakga / Slowga / Stone IV onto me and I resisted every single spell. Every break was resisted, every slowga was resisted and Stone / Stonega did floored damage (crit resist).

Every character has a hidden "Magic Resist" skill that is capped whenever you level up, its "C" rank. It's used as the base for your magic evasion. Base Magic Resist + Elemental Resist is what determines a monsters resistance, not sure how the enfeeble resistances are calculated after that. We know they do a basic magic acc vs element check, but not sure if the enfeeble resistance is added onto it or not.

Also remember, "Duration" is a component of magic resistance. Magic res isn't like melee, its not a hit/miss calculation but instead is a series of sequential checks with each failure reducing the potency or duration by 1/2.

Ex:
Spell with 60s duration,
Check 1: Hit = 60s Duration (100% damage), miss = check again
Check 2: Hit = 30s Duration (50% damage), miss = check again
Check 3: Hit = 15s Duration (25% damage), Miss = check again
Check 4: Hit = 7.5s Duration (16% damage), Miss = Critical Failure (Resist Message, or floored damage)

Some spells are two checks, some three and theoretically some could be four.

So if barresist spells are lowering duration, then their really just forcing the monster to miss it's first few checks. This system also ensures that even at 50% magic accuracy, your rarely going to get a "resist!" message.

[Neisan_Quetz]

.
.
.
What?

[cidbahamut]

Links to testing please.

[Aleste]

Since there seems to be a distinct lack of testing on the matter, I guess I know what I'll be testing on my next day off >.>;

2 identical WHMs getting ailment-ga'd over and over,
where one will have bar-ailment up.
Then again but with appropriate bar-element..
and again with bar-element and bar-ailment...

Trouble is, finding a mob that is easy to hold that favours such a spell.


Bar-ailment stuff

I have always been under the impression that the bar-element helps the chance to outright resist the ailment, and the bar-ailment reduces the duration of effect.

[Creelo]

I have always been under the impression that the bar-element helps the chance to outright resist the ailment, and the bar-ailment reduces the duration of effect.

I've always felt that both could increase the chances of outright resisting and partially resisting.

[saevel]

Since there seems to be a distinct lack of testing on the matter, I guess I know what I'll be testing on my next day off >.>;

2 identical WHMs getting ailment-ga'd over and over,
where one will have bar-ailment up.
Then again but with appropriate bar-element..
and again with bar-element and bar-ailment...

Trouble is, finding a mob that is easy to hold that favours such a spell.



I have always been under the impression that the bar-element helps the chance to outright resist the ailment, and the bar-ailment reduces the duration of effect.

Look at what I wrote above, resistance = duration.

There is no such thing as "out right resist" when it comes to elements. Magic accuracy vs Magic evasion determines the percentage rate, that rate is then checked multiple times with each subsequent time being for 1/2 the previous times effect duration until you hit the last check. The "Resist" traits are the only things that get a hit / miss effect and barresist spells don't boost those.

There are two messages to look for

Tunga casts Breakga

Saevel resists the effect
ZZZ is petrified
YYY is petrified

and

Tunga casts Breakga
Resist! Saevel resists the effect
ZZZ is petrified
YYY is petrified

The first is a resistance resulting from the monster missing all it's accuracy checks. If you want to see it then go pick on low level goblin WHM somewhere and watch it cast paralyze / slow on your 99 character (make sure no -elemental resist items). It'll proc the first message which indicates that your resistance is overwhelming it's accuracy so that it's missing all three / four checks in a row.

The second message is the "Resist" trait's effect procing and throwing the entire calculation out the window, the monster doesn't get a 2nd, 3rd or 4th chance at reduced duration.

Now I have no doubt that Resist Traits also add magic evasion to the appropriate status ailment, but we have no way of knowing how much right now.

[Aleste]

This spell does not prevent players from being {status}. This spell only decreases the time that the negative status effect stays on the player. This spell's effectiveness, like any other barspell, is wholly dependent on your Enhancing Magic skill. Low enhancing magic will produce little to no results in increasing your resistances.
also wrote


Casting a Bar Spell based on a status effect (i.e. Barpoison) will reduce how long it sticks and the effects that inflict that status effect.





Barspells increase Magic Evasion against specific elements or statues.

Bar-status Spells : These increase Magic Evasion against a specific status effect.

Status effects also often have an element, so pairing a Barspell of the appropriate element with the Barspell for the status effect you are trying to avoid will increase your Magic Evasion against that status even further. If you increase it enough, you should consistently Resist it.

Very little is known about Status Barspells, because their potency is not easily viewable like Elemental Barspells. Their potency likely depends on Enhancing magic, though the specific equation is unknown, and they use a different equation for duration:


Note that there are NO tests or links to testing available on either webpage, comments, discussions or as far as my half-assed googling attempts lead me to believe.




Which brings me back to my original point. The majority of people are under the impression that that is how it works and any 'evidence' is purely anecdotal, it seems like the best thing to do is to test it.


Does it resist for a fixed amount irrespective of enhancing skills?
Does it scale (linearly or otherwise) with enhancing magic to the previous enhancing cap of 300? Does it scale to the new cap of 500?
Does say, bar-paralysis reduce the % chance of being paralyzed? Does it even effect the potency of the ailment?
Is there an efficient reason to even use them in the first place? (with the exception of bar-amnesia; as it seems more efficient to cast the appropriate -na)
Do the bar-element spells have a greater chance of reducing or resisting elementally attuned ailments rather than the appropriate bar-ailment spell?
Are bar-ailment effects multiplicative or additive to bar-element spells?
Are bar-ailment effects multiplicative or additive to Resist {ailment} job abilities?



I had considered finding a low level* elemental (probably ice?) and magic aggro-ing on a low level job, and having my WHM99 buffing the low level character whilst parsing the appropriate thing I'm testing.

*Lower quantity of spells capable of being cast ~ higher chance of it casting the appropriate debuff?

[saevel]

Stuff

It's wiki, if you want I can go in there and edit it myself and change it. It's also very outdated and mostly wrong. Drain / Aspir / Stun are all "Black Magic Spells" but do not have a dSTAT component thus INT does nothing for magic acc / resistance. Enspells are enhancing white magic yet they do elemental damage, they only use the casters enhancing magic skill vs the monsters base resistance + elemental resistance.

Testing has been done for elemental magic, we know ~exactly~ how magic acc / evasion works. We know how the Resist! traits work. The only thing we're murky on is how the bar-status spells stack with the resist traits and magic evasion.

We know they don't give you the "Resist!" trait and there is no evidence that resist traits proc more with the bar-status spell. There is evidence that stacking bar-status spells and bar-element spells results in more resists / lower duration. Again resist = duration. This is something RDM's have known for years now, it was tested to death back in 05/06. If an enfeeble is lasting a short duration, then it got resisted at least once if not twice.

Magic Accuracy is a known formula, Skill + fStat (INT/MND/CHR/AGI) + Magic Accuracy gear vs Monster Magic Evasion (Base Resistance + Elemental Resistance). If your Stat is within 10 of the targets then each value is 1 magic acc, if it's greater then 10 then it's +0.5 magic acc each.

Much better description of magic accuracy.
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Magic_Hit_Rate

The only thing we don't know is how much ME that a barparalyze would add. Barstone @500 enhancing skill is +150 ice resist which is the same as +150 magic evasion. @99 my RDM would have 373 base resistance. Thus with barstone up I'll have 523 magic evasion. In order for me to get that many crit resists, I would of had to beat Tunga's magic accuracy at least three times per cast. The MA floor is 5% meaning there is a 85.73% chance of me beating all three MA/ME checks in a row on each cast. This is exactly what was happening when he was CSing me.

[Aleste]

You only touched on 3 out of the 8 points I intended to test, and failed to post or link to any relevant testing on the matter.


no evidence that resist traits proc more with the bar-status spell.

Are bar-ailment effects multiplicative or additive to Resist {ailment} job abilities?




There is evidence that stacking bar-status spells and bar-element spells results in more resists / lower duration.

Are bar-ailment effects multiplicative or additive to bar-element spells?





The only thing we don't know is how much ME that a barparalyze would add.

Does it resist for a fixed amount irrespective of enhancing skills? ...
Does it scale (linearly or otherwise) with enhancing magic to the previous enhancing cap of 300? Does it scale to the new cap of 500?





This is something RDM'splayers have known for years now, it was tested to death back in 05/06.
Then it shouldn't be hard to find the testing on bar-ailment spells then. I bolded it so you don't get confused and give me links to magic evasion testing.


Links to testing please.
This. Less anecdotes and more links to repeatable testing methods.

[saevel]

stuff

I've repeated that barailments are a bit of a mystery. They do not produce Resist! messages we know that.

What you stated is that bar-ailments reduce duration.

I said no, duration is a component of resistance. And that if bar-ailments are reducing duration then their actually adding magic evasion, the exact amount we don't know.

What we do know is how magic accuracy / magic evasion works and how it effects duration. I linked the page, which itself has references to BG and other tests that were done. This has been done to death already.

Components of MA / ME are known, effects are known, exact formulas and resist rates are known. It's known that Barpetrify will not give you Resist-Petrify job trait, Barsilence will not give you Resist-Silence job trait, and Barparalyze will not give you Resist-Paralyze job trait. Barsilence, Barpetrify, as Barparalyze results in less average duration then not having them. It is not a static percentage duration, go get silenced with barsilence up a bunch of times if you doubt that.

With all that above, which is known for years now, we can conclude that Barsilence / Barpetrify / Barparalyze / ect.. are adding to Magic Evasion vs those effects.

It's like your saying the sun isn't hot because someone didn't stick a thermometer into it. We know it's hot due to the effects of the light it creates, just as we can know that Bar-ailment gives ME based on the reduced average duration.

In any case, I've explained my point and given supporting evidence in the form of MA/ME testing. Good luck finding a controlled situation where you can directly test the MA of a monster casting paralyze on you. Could probably find a DC goblin somewhere and spend a few days (collecting the data) / weeks (verifying the data). I've demonstrated how MA / ME work and how the reduced average duration on status ailments (supported by your argument) means the Bar-ailment is giving ME. This thread isn't about me convincing you, this is the internet and you can't convince anyone of anything on it, its just a giant e-peen contest for you people on who can troll each other the most. Anyone reading this will have the information they need to come to their own conclusion regarding Bar-element + Bar-ailment.

To prove beyond all doubt,


I have always been under the impression that the bar-element helps the chance to outright resist the ailment, and the bar-ailment reduces the duration of effect.

Shows you have absolutely zero idea how resists work. There is no such things as "outright resist the ailment" nor "reduces the duration of effect". It's a series of MA/ME checks with each one having reduced effect / duration and the final failure is resist. Resist-Traits are a chance that is checked once upon the effect first landing on you, and their a very low chance.

And now /ignore Aleste.

[Byrth]

So, I have thought about testing this in the past and come up with a method (though I am too lazy to do it myself) that might help you answer some of the questions you posed.
* Take your character with a low base damage weapon and find a monster that casts Ice Spikes whose paralyze additional effect you are generally susceptible to.
* Hit it with your weapon and count the number of hits it takes to get paralyzed.
* Do this quite a few times. Like, start with ~100.
* Cast Barparalyze and repeat the test (keep your stats the same and note the enhancing magic).
* Calculate your average number of hits to proc Paralyze without and with Barparalyra, and use the Magic Hit Rate equations to figure out how much M Eva the spell gave you.

Problems:
Ideally you would use monsters that are a constant level, which is not easily possible unless they are EM. Barring that, you could compensate by collecting the same number of samples of each type from each enemy. So you do 3 rounds without barparalyze, 3 rounds with, monster is dead and you go to the next monster.


Anyway, I wrote the bgwiki page so I will try to address some of your questions:




* Does it resist for a fixed amount irrespective of enhancing skills?
-- Very probably not. We know that both potency and duration depend on skill for bar-element spells, so it is probably the same for status spells.

* Does it scale (linearly or otherwise) with enhancing magic to the previous enhancing cap of 300? Does it scale to the new cap of 500?
-- It likely scales to the cap of 500. If you look at the duration equation, it doesn't even take off from the floor until something like RDM's level 72 skill cap. As far as I know, the equation was added when they raised the cap to 80. If they were going to add a new duration equation, why would they not add a potency equation as well?

* Does say, bar-paralysis reduce the % chance of being paralyzed? Does it even effect the potency of the ailment?
-- It is almost certainly magic evasion and has no effect on potency. Barsleep does not reduce sleep duration or make you any less slept. Barbind and Barsilence are two other that can't even decrease potency. You could test this with Barblind the easiest. I assume it is magic evasion because Barstatus spells are incredibly useless in some places (think of casting Barsleepra when fighting mandies in Kazham) but very useful in other places (see below) which is what one would predict if it was Magic Evasion.

* Is there an efficient reason to even use them in the first place? (with the exception of bar-amnesia; as it seems more efficient to cast the appropriate -na) -- I use Barparalyra when fighting Reinforcement monsters in Salvage. Combined with Barblizzara, I can generally melee them to death with 1-2 Ice Spikes paralyze procs at most. Flooring ice spikes proc rate like this makes the frequency of paralyze from it worth Paralyna-ing, unlike when it is a near-100% proc rate before buffs.

* Do the bar-element spells have a greater chance of reducing or resisting elementally attuned ailments rather than the appropriate bar-ailment spell?
-- This would likely depend on their relative potencies, which there has been no testing (that I know of) on.

* Are bar-ailment effects multiplicative or additive to bar-element spells?
-- Additive probably, in the most direct sense (adding magic evasion) as far as their effects on resistance, it's going to be something more like the left graph on this page (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Resist). When you add magic evasion, you are moving yourself from the right to the left, which means "no resist" situations are less likely to happen down to whatever the floor is. If you had a 50% resist rate on a 1-state (linear) debuff with the Bar-element spell and then you stack the bar-status spell on for another 50 MEvasion, you will reduce the land rate to 25%. If you look at the graph a little harder, you can see that for 2-state debuffs like Sleep (or 3~4 state ones) this would be an even more dramatic effect.

* Are bar-ailment effects multiplicative or additive to Resist {ailment} job abilities?
-- They are very likely separate. When Resist traits proc, they say "Resist!" in the log. This proc rate appears to be independent of monster level vs. yours and pretty much any other factor I can think of, which is very different from the Mandy example above. You also do not see any "Resist!" messages when you are resisting stuff with barstatus spells.

[Economizer]

this is the internet and you can't convince anyone of anything on it

I would really hope you don't become this callous of other people here. I know it can be hard to sort out which players post with good faith and which post with malice but I'd hope you have faith in the people who at least try.

Cold hard math or an official formula from the devs. That's all we want. I hope that you aren't upset that he's trying to test something that there is clearly not enough information about. I understand that you are trying to explain magic resists and I think that if we can get the original source of that testing it would help Aleste decide on the best way to finally test barstatus spells.


And now /ignore Aleste.

I'm going to address this, and hopefully you will listen to someone when they tell you this if not to me.

You can't just ignore everyone on the forums because you don't occasionally like what they are saying. Despite the bullheadedness of most posters here (me, you, and several others I know you've stated you've ignored) the majority of us aren't trying to troll or piss off other players, we're just trying to get the fact straight so we can enjoy the game more. The more credible people you ignore the less credibility you have, and honestly you've gone from being a very credible poster in my eyes (something you earned) to being a less and less credible poster over time. To be absolutely blunt, it sounds childish, and I think and I would hope that you are beyond that.

If I'm wrong and you don't care about this being a positive discussion, feel free to ignore me too. I would be quite disappointed if that were to happen however as I feel that there is more to gain from your unfettered contribution to this forum.

[cidbahamut]

And now you're on his ignore list too. Welcome to the party bro, we've got chips and drinks in the kitchen and sandwiches in the fridge.

[saevel]

I would really hope you don't become this callous of other people here. I know it can be hard to sort out which players post with good faith and which post with malice but I'd hope you have faith in the people who at least try.

Cold hard math or an official formula from the devs. That's all we want. I hope that you aren't upset that he's trying to test something that there is clearly not enough information about. I understand that you are trying to explain magic resists and I think that if we can get the original source of that testing it would help Aleste decide on the best way to finally test barstatus spells.



I'm going to address this, and hopefully you will listen to someone when they tell you this if not to me.

You can't just ignore everyone on the forums because you don't occasionally like what they are saying. Despite the bullheadedness of most posters here (me, you, and several others I know you've stated you've ignored) the majority of us aren't trying to troll or piss off other players, we're just trying to get the fact straight so we can enjoy the game more. The more credible people you ignore the less credibility you have, and honestly you've gone from being a very credible poster in my eyes (something you earned) to being a less and less credible poster over time. To be absolutely blunt, it sounds childish, and I think and I would hope that you are beyond that.

If I'm wrong and you don't care about this being a positive discussion, feel free to ignore me too. I would be quite disappointed if that were to happen however as I feel that there is more to gain from your unfettered contribution to this forum.

He was not interested in learning how MA / ME work. That has been determined a long time ago. How do you think we know that HQ ele staves give +30 magic accuracy? That number isn't printed on the stave anywhere, SE never told us, and there is no NPC in the game that will tell it to you, yet somehow we know that it's +30. How do you think we know that INT adds magic accuracy to elemental and enfeebling black magic but not to dark black magic (Stun / Drain / ect..)? It's not mentioned in the game nor did SE tell us.

Kanican did a bunch of work which itself was based on a JP called lodeguy. Kanican is the person who figured out and tested how the enmity system works, VE and CE. They and their friends determined that provoke is +1800 VE and that VE decays at rate of 60/second.

Magic Acc description
http://kanican.livejournal.com/34049.html

Her mag.acc work was based on a JP's work. If you can read japanese
http://lodeguy.blog69.fc2.com/blog-category-17.html

This is all available on the wiki article I posted a link to, it takes minimal amounts of effort to pull the links out and go see for yourselves.

I myself have tested enspell magic accuracy and determined that neither INT nor MND do anything for enspell accuracy. I also knew LONG before SE posted their "SCH enspell update" that enspell accuracy was determined upon strike not cast and that Enhancing Magic was the base skill used for it with no dSTAT modifier. SE has since changed it so that accuracy is now determined upon cast.

MA/ME is now a known value just like Melee Accuracy / Melee Evasion and Melee Attack / Melee Defense are known values.

The exact formula for magic hit rate is laid out here
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Magic_Hit_Rate

Unfortunately the original English testing data behind the links is no longer active, the only thing I can find now is the Japanese testing from lodeguy. In any case, it should be rather easy to see exactly how magic accuracy works.

Aleste was not interested in any of this, only arguing. He never visited the links nor checked the supporting data from Kanican / Lodeguy. He didn't even understand the basic relationship of magic accuracy to magic evasion and how resists actually work. This is why I added him to my ignore list, when someone demonstrated that their not interested in actually learning and that their whole point is to stat sh!t for their friends on another unnamed internet location to make threads about, that is when they get added to my ignore list. Even though we've had our differences you've never demonstrated that kind of ignorance.

[Aleste]

that their whole point is to stat sh!t for their friends on another unnamed internet location to make threads about, that is when they get added to my ignore list.

First and foremost, I find that rather rude.

I have 26 posts on BG. 5 in the neo-nyzul (covering the 4 runs I did on release date and 1 complaining about the 30 minute wait), and the rest in the random question thread asking random questions most of which relating to whitemage stats, formula and testing :

WHM curaga V emnity generation (of which i decided to test)
WHM AF3+2 set bonus procrate (which my testing can be seen on the bottom of bgwiki)
Cursna and its relationship to healing magic (tested and came back inconclusive)
WHM Barspell sets and whether it'd be better to cast in relic pantaloons at the time rather than full set bonus (4/5 set + relic)
WHM hexastrike pants
Enfeebling/dark magic builds for whm

On this forum I've looked at and tested :

500 enhancing magic cap
Maximum possible barspell cap
If there was a 500 healing magic skill cap in the power formula for calculating curative magic
How cure potency received maths out


Quite frankly the most insightful thing I've got out of this thread was this line by Byrth:

"It likely scales to the cap of 500. If you look at the duration equation, it doesn't even take off from the floor until something like RDM's level 72 skill cap. As far as I know, the equation was added when they raised the cap to 80. If they were going to add a new duration equation, why would they not add a potency equation as well?"
and he even went so far as to help throw in ideas to test it.

But I digress, asking for relevant testing is clearly rude on the internet. All I repeatably asked for was the links on ANY testing on bar-ailment spells so that I can provide a firm basis towards the testing that I intend to be doing.

[Economizer]

WHM curaga V emnity generation (of which i decided to test)

I can't seem to find the results on BGwiki, can I get a link?


Cursna and its relationship to healing magic (tested and came back inconclusive)

This one is an absolute pain, we can't get a conclusive result of any effect but SE is wishy-washy about telling us the effect of healing magic on it... the WHM Q&A gave us an answer that seemed to indicate it had no effect, but a recent answer says that it does... so confusing.


Enfeebling/dark magic builds for whm

Care to share your itemsets? I don't think I'm going to be building for either anytime soon but I suppose it can't hurt to have them... plus this actually fits this thread a bit like the whole barstatus spell thing.

[Byrth]

I think I failed to put the Curaga V enmity testing on bgwiki. The result was that it (and Curaga IV) have static Enmities like Cure V/VI instead of variable enmities like Cure 1~4.

I think the most recent Dev post kinda unambiguously stated that Healing Magic skill does affect Cursna success rate when removing doom.

[Economizer]

I think I failed to put the Curaga V enmity testing on bgwiki. The result was that it (and Curaga IV) have static Enmities like Cure V/VI instead of variable enmities like Cure 1~4

Curaga IV has a static enmity as well? I'm more confused now.

[Aleste]

Quick post before I go to bed~

On the quick test I did it didn't appear to be static, which to me would imply it following the usual curagaX emnity generation. Relevant curagaX testing can be found on kanican's blog if anyone wishes to do in-depth testing on the matter.
http://kanican.livejournal.com/17795.html http://kanican.livejournal.com/30340.html
Not that I've ever found an efficient use for it (other than perhaps a post-unweak penury'd quick recovery)~

(Un?)Luckily the shell I'm in has recently finished a metric tonne of Buhkis's and I've never noticed a significant increase in removal chance :S I'm almost tempted to cast it in full haste and save inventory slots on healing magic skill gear.

EDIT:// Referring to this one perhaps?


"we are planning to make it a type of magic that has a set chance of recovery similar to Doom."

"we’d like to monitor the current rate. Though it depends on luck and repeated attempts, but the recovery rate was set rather high so it can be cured before the countdown timer reaches zero."



All in all, enfeebling builds vary depending on target and I'm too lazy (read: lack of inventory spaces) to gear for it properly. In the meantime I'm aiming for a generic all round set, something like:

Hqstaves / Macero Grip / empty / Sturm Report
Laurel wreath / Enf. Torque / INT|MND Earrings
Nares Saio / Avesta Bangles / Balrahns / Strendu
INT|MND back / INT|MND Waist / Portent Pants / Nares Clogs

I've been having some inventory woes recently, so I'd probably condense inventory by using some current inventory stuffs for grip/ammo/torque/INT, and use +2 (or higher) on the relevant nyzul gears and change avesta bangles to relic +2.

and I've almost no inventory to properly gear for drain/aspirs unfortunately =/

[Neisan_Quetz]

If you wanted to save space drop macero and sturm, as those are easily the least important pieces. Try for relic head to replace laurel. Don't bother with earrings/Avesta bangles either, stick to Emp+2.

[Aleste]

If you wanted to save space drop macero and sturm, as those are easily the least important pieces. Try for relic head to replace laurel. Don't bother with earrings/Avesta bangles either, stick to Emp+2.

You mean relic+2 hands (18 enfeebling skill)? and why relic head(7MND) to replace laurel(10 m.acc) for that matter?

[Neisan_Quetz]

Empyrean+2 hands and relic head, yes. There is no difference between enfeebling skill and magic accuracy, aside for dark magic ( and elemental, but there are better pieces depending), which you said you're not carrying a set for. In that case you can just use Empyrean+2 head to save space over laural.
INT earrings are generally a waste since the only INT enfeeble with potency is Blind iirc. Enfeebles with potency affected by Mnd you can cap on most monsters with a decent set without earrings at all.

[Camate]

We have been mentioning here and there about a significant enfeeble system revamp and I’d like to explain a bit more in detail about the changes that will be taking place with the upcoming test server, as I am sure everyone is quite curious what will be adjusted!

Immunity
In the case where a monster has immunity to a certain enfeebling spell, it will be possible to recognize this via the chat log when it is resisted.

As long as the monster does not have immunity, it will be possible to enfeeble them, and there will be a very large amount of monsters that can be enfeebled as compared to the past.

※The log display for immunity will not be reflected on the test server at this time.
　
“Resist hack” (tentative name)
We will be adding a new system where resistance will decrease by the continuous use of an enfeebling spell.

When an enfeebling spell is resisted, a “resist hack” can occur which will reduce the resistance towards that enfeebling spell.
Resist hacks can build up making it possible to lower the resistance further.
The more an enfeebling spell is resisted, the higher the rate of a resist hack occurring.
Once the enfeebling effect is successfully applied to the monster, the lowered resistance will reset.
If an enfeebling effect is put on a monster continuously, resistance will gradually build and the resist hacks will not occur. Monsters that have immunity will also exist and resist hacks will not occur when fighting them.
Resist hacks will only be applied towards enfeebling magic (spells that fall into the enfeebling magic skill category)
　
Adjustment objective
The main objective for implementing this system is to boost the contribution of enfeebling magic for strategies when fighting NMs with high resistances and other specific content.

There will be an extremely large amount of monsters where this system will be applicable, so we will be spending some time adjusting each of them. For the next version update we will be adjusting regular field monsters and the NMs in Legion and Voidwatch. After this we will be adjusting NMs for other content as well as field NMs.

We feel that with this system enfeebling spells will be much more applicable and we are really looking forward to have everyone test it out and give feedback! :)

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Translation: This is a massive fix for WHM and BLM, and wont give reason again for RDM.

[SpankWustler]

If, against every bit of pessimism that I feel within every particle of my body, this change includes Gravity and thus Gravity II...that still won't do a whole bunch for Red Mage, but at least Gravity II existing at all won't feel so ridiculous, I guess?

Honestly, I'm just glad the change sounds as though it will cover enough monsters to actually change a thing. Hearing specifically that things such as Legion and Voidwatch monsters will be included is very good news.

[Luvbunny]

This is great information indeed but sadly it will not help much for Red Mage, enfeebling pretty much can be handled by white mage, black mage and scholar. Please do something about Red Mage and work a major revision on this job, similar thing that was done to Scholar and White Mage a few years ago and Puppetmaster + Dragoon of recently.

[Zirael]

This update acheves pretty much nothing.
Dia II can't be resisted outside magic shield, Addle lands on pretty much everything (even things like Amaltheia) and as for Slow, if it lands, it lands, if not - zerg fasterrrrr.
Also, "Resist Hack" is useless for RDM - Saboteur wears off whether you land a spell or not. And outside of Saboteur+Slow II/Dia III RDM is gimped SCH that can't cast Embrava/Nuke V. What exactly this change aims to fix again...?

[scaevola]

Silly question, perhaps, but will these apply to enfeebling ninjutsu and blue magic as well as white/black?

[cidbahamut]

I'm calling it right now, this is going to end up being a nerf to Red Mage.

[Raksha]

So now instead of casting buffs over and over again on pt members we can cast enfeebles over and over again on mobs.

[Helel]

This update acheves pretty much nothing.
Dia II can't be resisted outside magic shield, Addle lands on pretty much everything (even things like Amaltheia) and as for Slow, if it lands, it lands, if not - zerg fasterrrrr.
Also, "Resist Hack" is useless for RDM - Saboteur wears off whether you land a spell or not. And outside of Saboteur+Slow II/Dia III RDM is gimped SCH that can't cast Embrava/Nuke V. What exactly this change aims to fix again...?

Saboteur does nothing for Dia.

[Insaniac]

This should have been done completely differently. Instead of giving RDMs an advantage in enfeebling this just closes the gap even further. I know this was never presented as a fix for RDM but...

http://ghanamixtapes.com/wp-content/plugins/adrotate/jackie-chan-rage-face-meme-i16.png

[Unaisis]

poor poor RDM ; ;... looks like they will never shine again.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

This should have been done completely differently. Instead of giving RDMs an advantage in enfeebling this just closes the gap even further. I know this was never presented as a fix for RDM but...

http://ghanamixtapes.com/wp-content/plugins/adrotate/jackie-chan-rage-face-meme-i16.png

It sort of was, it was first mentioned in a RDM thread, as was an update.

[Return1]

It's really going to depend on new content.

If the new content has extremely powerful mobs that also bypass zerg methods (SE has just released one of its first successful anti-zerg battles), then enfeebling will become important again, along with hate management, and tanks.

As pessimistic as SE has made me lately, I'm withholding judgement on enfeebling importance until we see Adoulin. It may resurrect certain elements or add new functions to them. The last expansion/add-on type content was Abyssea and it changed the game drastically. I wouldn't be shocked if Adoulin does the same.

[saevel]

Yeah ... so called it.

It's an enfeebling fix for GEO / WHM / BLM / SCH. This has absolutely noting to do with RDM, never did. We're going to have to wait till next year for any fix's on RDM's behalf, that's when Mr. Barance is gone and no longer deciding that RDM is "a very powerful job".

[Keyln]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't RDM still have the strongest enfeebles in the game? If so, how is this not a boost to RDM?

[cidbahamut]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't RDM still have the strongest enfeebles in the game? If so, how is this not a boost to RDM?

By the slimmest and most inconsequential of margins.
Besides, NM white damage isn't a threat at all nowadays, so mitigating it slightly really doesn't matter. Dia remains the only enfeeble that actually matters in group play and it lands automatically.

[Cowardlybabooon]

Enfeebling will never make red mage good. People need to change their focus to enhancing magic and cures like rdm has always been. I can't Imagine an Enfeebling spell that changes the job, but I can with enhancing.

[Mindi]

Enfeebling will never make red mage good. People need to change their focus to enhancing magic and cures like rdm has always been. I can't Imagine an Enfeebling spell that changes the job, but I can with enhancing.

At 75 it was Enfeebling+Refresh that made ppl bring RDM to stronger fights (Sure there was allways the colibri Merit PT where RDM was good at healing/hasting..) It was required for a RDM to have a good enfeebling build to even hit some targets with enfeebling where WHM and BLM had a really bad chance to get it land. When resists weren't a problem, RDM could go full potency (like MND on SlowII/ParalyzeII) sets where WHM or BLM still would need skill-equip.

In smallman groups or endgame at 75 RDM was a tank, enfeebler, decent healer and support. They destroyed RDM tanking with Enmity change to our mainspells, they destroyed enfeebling with ignoring RDM and making other jobs as usefull to enfeeble like rdm, and well anyone with cure IV is a decent healer now. Every Mage can run around with lets say 3-6tic autorefresh. Haveing 2 over 1 tic autorefresh at 75 was a differenc, having 7 max over 6 is no real difference, atleast not much. RDM was solo-boss at 75, but even if they change gravity resist on all those newer mobs, i cant think of any target i would try to solo as RDM now. I allways was more a fan of Duo NIN+RDM at 75 hehe. RDM was my mainjob at 75 for many years and i got it to almost perfect equip in all usefull Sets (-Morrigan grrrrrrrr Salvage hated me) but since hmm lets say lv cap raised to 85 i never played it much.

Almost all fights we face now in FFXI Mobs have Uber-TP moves which hurt. Its hardly anymore about having a good potency Slow II or Paralyze II on them.

RDM need unique enfeebling that lowers target TP gain, blocks them from using TP moves (Rdm Amnesia spell go) or anything else that makes the Monsters use TP moves less often. RDM could for sure use unique buffs, like Temper would have been a nice Buff for others instat of just giving them a enspell on SCH/RDM.. but noo they have the opinion that RDM is a ego-job. Sure RDM allways had self buffs and i dont mind that, but RDM could also Aga them with Accession, Temper cant.

This enfeebling change benefits RDM, but in the same way it benefits WHM, SCH, BLM. Anyone can enfeeble now, its not needed to bring the slightly more powerful enfeebles RDM brings to the table. When all newer NM's wont resist paralyze anymore this can be nice again, but i dont think it make groups bring a RDM. Once we have fights again which take some time and where RDM can land enfeeblings and WHM can not, it could give RDM a chance, but with Embrava+PD zerging it doesnt happen.

[Babekeke]

Silly question, perhaps, but will these apply to enfeebling ninjutsu and blue magic as well as white/black?


Resist hacks will only be applied towards enfeebling magic (spells that fall into the enfeebling magic skill category)

Just to clear that up for you.

[saevel]

RDM's most potent defensive enfeebles are for auto-attack damage only, which is the absolute lowest source of damage for most NMs. Technically paralyze / addle reduce magic damage, though I've never seen a NM have their spell paralyzed and addle's effect isn't even noticeable. RDM's real enfeebles are it's offensive ones, Dia III and Gravity II (-40 evasion). Gravity is broken, badly broken as EVERYTHING you'd want to stick -40 evasion on is completely immune to it. Those few things that aren't immune will only have it last 30s or less, and then they become immune after two castings. SE really didn't want people slowing down NM movement speed, which screws over the entire gravity line.

After all that ... your left with .... Dia III as your only real enfeeble. It's potency is fixed and it's magic accuracy is fixed, the only thing you have any control over is it's duration. So yeah this update will do exactly nothing for RDM's until SE released new enfeebles that are offensive in nature or actually useful defensive ones.

[Dragoy]

Immunity
In the case where a monster has immunity to a certain enfeebling spell, it will be possible to recognize this via the chat log when it is resisted.

If nothing else, this is something I quite like, hah!

It is of course good to see the system being reworked, so I'm not hating, even if the Red Mage in me might hold a grudge, still.

[ManaKing]

Yeah this is a pretty bad 'fix'. Unless the threshold for enfeebling magic is going to be lower than we all expect and RDM is going land enfeebles easily by virtue of their higher skill, this is just a waste of time. It favors spamming spells over worrying about potency and accuracy linked with JAs. This is an update that doesn't favor specialization in enfeebling, but rather those that have the ability to do it at all. You wouldn't make an adjustment to 'buff' Shields that would make them just as viable on WAR than they are on PLDs. RDM has an A+ in enfeebling. WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE THE BEST AT IT.

It's already been expressed how this is not helpful to RDM's ability to inflict more potent enfeebles via saboteur if our enfeebles are still going to be able to be resisted. You have to give RDMs some method to reliably implement Saboteur on mobs so they don't waste a 5 minute job ability on the possibility that may or may not work.

The only thing that I can quickly come up with that would benefit RDMs from this system is if a tier 1 enfeeble has already landed that it can be overwritten by a tier 2 of the same magic without worrying about resists. That way if you really want Slow II to land with Saboteur on it, you keep casting Slow I until you land it and then overwrite it with Slow II with Saboteur on it. This seems like a rather convoluted and ass-backwards approach to something that should be as easy as, Saboteur makes any enfeeble irresistible, but it's not hard for many RDMs to see this issue completely swept under the rug and ignored.

If you want to make RDMs feel like they aren't being overlooked again, address the issue with Saboteur and implement favorable rules to at least give us the illusion that we are the best at enfeebling.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't RDM still have the strongest enfeebles in the game? If so, how is this not a boost to RDM?

This is a boost more favourable to those lacking skill, allowing it more easily to land. The only way this would be a boost for RDM was if skill itself effected potency. As it stands, WHM, BLM and SCH can just aim for potency builds and spam the spell increasing their role in a party, but not adding a RDM as a role still.

Basically, the same mindset will still exist. Why add a RDM for a small boost for the tier II spells when WHM, BLM or SCH can do it well enough and you can add another DD.

[Kuvo]

I would like to have more info and detail about these changes before I make any drastic conclusions. When aby first came out a lot of ppl flamed the system trying to get a 6 person lvl 75 party and trying to lvl the old way. Pull to camp and kill. That didn't work and people were really hating on that system. A few months later and everyone started to love it, once it was more figured out. All i'm saying is that the new area, cities, battle content, and so on my be the difference to RDM and other jobs and may be a complete change to how we do endgame content now. New systems, new mobs, new areas, perhaps it would change for RDM but like i said, i'm not going to say this update is not going to fix my favorite job in the FF series until more detailed info is released. At the same time i'm not going to get my hopes up.

[Guppie]

It would be interesting if the different tiers of enfeebles had their own hack/resist counters.

For an example of how that might work, consider something like Gravity. Other mage jobs would oscillate between high/low resistance states for Gravity, with each successful landing leading to a period where the spell would fail to land (having multiple mages spam enfeebling would merely reduce the period of the oscillations).

A RDM could theoretically be able to alternate Gravity I and II, to always keep at least one enfeeble in the low-resistance state (thus perhaps making Gravity useful again). This scenario works best if you can hack a lower-tier enfeeble while a higher tier being already on the mob (ie, hack Gravity I while Gravity II is already on).

If the different tiers of enfeebles share a single hack/resist counter, then at least RDM will be able to hack faster by rotating the multiple tiers (although a SCH burning Celerity charges would probably be able to do it fairly quickly, too).

[tyrantsyn]

If stronger MND/INT/SKILL apply to this new hack method, a well gear RDM should be able to land enfeeble's faster than any other job. Even if another job class can land a Paralyze it may come down to getting it done with 3 cycle's or 10. If that the case RDM will have the advantage.

What RDM need's is unique spell's not native to other job classes that help's bring them into the content. Which has been discuss plenty. Hopefully those are in the works as well.

[Return1]

People are still focused on the mobs we have today instead of the mobs we'll have tomorrow. While that's fine, people are still bringing GEO into the discussion. You can't do that. Also, the enfeebling change is about prepping the game for future content, so it's not wise to debate it atm.

People talking about "White damage" from mobs, I don't think they're considering the possibility the new mobs can easily be designed to do ridiculous amounts of white damage, making Enfeebles needed for any modicum of comfort needed while fighting them.

It's possible to keep Saboteur Slow II up almost full time. That's ~56% more slow than any other Mage's slow spell. Paralyze II was also said to proc at something like 40-45% with 5/5 merits. Does anyone have any numbers on that? The point is, RDM could decrease white damage greatly against new mobs if they are made incredibly powerful.

That's why I'm holding back my judgement. I don't think a decently well planned expansion would add a new stackable enfeeble set, have a large enfeeble overhaul, and focus on new powerful HNMs, wouldn't make said new strongest HNMs in the game strong enough to need said stacking enfeebles and overhaul.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

If stronger MND/INT/SKILL apply to this new hack method, a well gear RDM should be able to land enfeeble's faster than any other job. Even if another job class can land a Paralyze it may come down to getting it done with 3 cycle's or 10. If that the case RDM will have the advantage.

What RDM need's is unique spell's not native to other job classes that help's bring them into the content. Which has been discuss plenty. Hopefully those are in the works as well.

New enfeebles will be added, to GEO though, not RDM. In the form of Amnesia, Stop etc...

[Quetzacoatl]

I like Tyrantsyn's idea.

Have the resist hack's potency be dependent on your enfeebling skill as a primary modifier for a resist hack, and spell modifiers (INT/MND) as secondary and we're golden. That way RDM WILL be needed to break resistances quicker, since no one gets serious enfeebling gear like RDM can get. Oh, and don't forget merits to keep it at the top. Not ashamed to have Enfeebling Merits.

Some jobs can get some feasible gear for it, but they're mostly out of the way, so...

[tyrantsyn]

New enfeebles will be added, to GEO though, not RDM. In the form of Amnesia, Stop etc...
I respect what you always say DH, and I feel your pain in the statement. More than anything I'm just trying to put some faith in the Dev team that there listen to us and not just using everything we come up with else where.

[Quetzacoatl]

New enfeebles will be added, to GEO though, not RDM. In the form of Amnesia, Stop etc...

Where was this said?

[Kaisha]

After mucking about on the test server, someone answer me why anyone would waste a whole minute spamming spells to build up immunobreak, just to land one debuff, is worth wasting your time on?

First impressions for me showing that no one will still bring a RDM to any event, since by the time they land something that used to be either immune or extremely resistant, the mob will already be dead. Better off just having another DD as people already been doing in Voidwatch.

[Unaisis]

After mucking about on the test server, someone answer me why anyone would waste a whole minute spamming spells to build up immunobreak, just to land one debuff, is worth wasting your time on?

First impressions for me showing that no one will still bring a RDM to any event, since by the time they land something that used to be either immune or extremely resistant, the mob will already be dead. Better off just having another DD as people already been doing in Voidwatch.


Very true indeed unfortunately T__________T

[Neisan_Quetz]

Looked at kaisha's prelim data and this change is looking pretty laughable, doesn't fix or address anything.

[Merton9999]

I agree that we'll probably have to wait until SoA to see if this change actually means anything. CoP, WoG and Abyssea all added unexpected massive game changes...

But right now this implementation just seems really really really ... dumb. Even if WHM, BLM and SCH didn't already have massive beneficial abilities that negate the need for enfeebling to become a tactic on those jobs... Even if RDM could somehow pull ahead in enfeebling over those jobs to actually become useful just for enfeebling, which I doubt like everyone else...

Even with those things, this implementation of enfeeble spam is confusing and maddening. The few times I've played RDM in groups lately I've just gotten to enjoy the relief to buff cycling from the enhancement effect duration of Empyrean +2 and cape. Now I'd have to just replace that with spamming the same enfeebling spell unill it lands?! That sounds like a terrible step backward.

Maybe the goal is to make fights where enfeebling really will be necessary and the presence of a RDM, along with other mages spamming the same enfeeble, will allow that enfeeble to land a LOT faster? So kind of like a Meteor team-cast coordination but with different mage jobs, RDM being the catalyst, and enfeebling instead of damage??? I don't know, I'm trying to think of something good about this but just can't.

[SpankWustler]

The only good thing I can say about this change is that total immunity has been mostly eliminated. Gravity and even Sleep seem to be landing on all kinds of stuff...eventually...eventually ... eventually ...

...eventually...

...eventually...

...even...

...tually...

...ev...

...entu...

...ally...

Resist Hacks need to be changed somehow, unless there's something that everyone who has played with it has missed. Ideally something based on skill or much more potent hacks for the less potent enfeeble, but if that's not possible, a huge change across the board won't put anybody at risk of crippling giant monsters.

As the Resist Hack system looks now, many Notorious Monsters will be dead and barely remembered by their middle-aged grandchildren before anyone has a chance to make those things auto-attack 20~30% slower. Very few monsters rise up after two generations have passed to poke at people in mostly non-threatening ways.

[Scuro]

Give SCH's Addle.... That is all.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Where was this said?

I was just being sarcastic, though it is most likely the case.

[saevel]

As stated before, this will do absolutely nothing for RDM. It just lets WHM / BLM / SCH land paralyze / slow / blind for procs on a voidwatch NM, that's all.

[Okipuit]

Howdy!

I have some follow-up information regarding the enfeebling adjustments.

Immunobreaks will occur on all monsters that have a high amount of resistance. As an objective, this is for monsters where:


You can only land spells with Elemental Seal.
Monsters who do not have immunity, but spells will not land even when using Elemental Seal.

This has been applied to monsters of all areas on the test server.

※Immunobreaks will not occur on monsters that enfeebling effects can be applied normally. Also, their resist rates will function as they did in the past.

Since this alone cannot address when monsters have complete immunity to spells, we will be working to reduce complete immunity as much as possible, area by area, for each type of contents. Due to the fact that this work will require us to address each NM individually, it is going to take a bit of time to adjust them one by one. Our first task will be implementing this into Legion and Voidwatch.

We believe that with these adjustments the amount of cases where weaknesses cannot be triggered or enfeebling effects cannot be applied due to complete immunity will be significantly reduced.

Also, one of the aims is to make Red Mage’s enfeebling spells much more useful, and as a result of exploring this we decided to make it so that the immunobreak system is only for enfeebling magic skill.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Also, one of the aims is to make Red Mage’s enfeebling spells much more useful, and as a result of exploring this we decided to make it so that the immunobreak system is only for enfeebling magic skill.

The issue is there is no significant difference for RDM when you compare to WHM/BLM, even more so when they lack unique spells for this category other than merit ones.

As such, this does very little for RDM.

[SpankWustler]

Also, one of the aims is to make Red Mage’s enfeebling spells much more useful, and as a result of exploring this we decided to make it so that the immunobreak system is only for enfeebling magic skill.

Unless there are also unique and effective enfeebling spells for Red Mage coming down the line, effective enough to merit casting them over and over until an Immunobreak is achieved, the Immunobreak system does very little for Red Mage.

Or the stuff in Andoulin could just melee for 2000 damage a hit, making large amounts of Slow and Paralyze useful again. I...kind of felt a dark cloud approaching as I typed that sentence...

[Ophannus]

RDM being an enefeebling specialist has at most 3 or 4 unique enfeebles.

Gravity II(Not unique really, just a more potent Gravity I, which again isn't that useful).
Paralyze II(More potent paralyze but hard to say since even when it lands, it hardly procs on hard mobs)
Slow II(Marginally better than Slow I, weaker than Elegy though)
Blind II(A few more -Accuracy than Blind I, useless since mobs have such high accuracy anyway. Other jobs get more potent Blind i.e BLU's Auroral Drape which is like 3x more potent than Blind II).

Notice how 3/4 of those enfeebles are Merit abilities. Why does RDM need level 75 merits to get an edge over White Mage or Black Mage for enfeebling abilities?Hypothetically, the equivalent would be if /WHM and /RDM gave Cure V and BLM, SCH, RDM, PLD, and any job that subs /RDM or /WHM had access to Cure V and WHM only had access to Cure VI via merit points. You see that WHM and BLM get a resoundingly large portion of Enfeebling spells whereas RDM gets a resoundingly small amount of healing and elemental skills. Whereas WHM/RDM or BLM/RDM can cast over 95% of RDM's enfeeble spells, RDM/WHM or RDM/BLM still doesnt get Cure V or Tier 5 Nukes. Our merit spells are very slightly stronger than the spells we learn at level 5, 6 or level 12 and it takes maximum merits to make any of them useful. Assuming a RDM never used merit points, RDM would have no unique enfeebles except Gravity II. By the same token, an unmeritted WHM still has Protect V/Shell V, Cure VI, Curaga V, Sacrifice, Esuna. An unmeritted BLM is hardly affected since they naturally get Tier V nukes, and -aja spells which outclass their merit spells. RDM gets no enfeebling magic that outclass their merit spells and to date are the only class that is absolutely dependent on their merit spells to be unique at 75, even though paralyze II and slow II are not really a noticably potent increase in hard fights over a WHM tossing out a Slow I or Paralyze I.

[Helel]

If gravity II does actually land on NMs it essentially gives melees acc +40, which is really quite good on some of the NMs like rex, bismarck, etc.

But it probably won't.

[Kitkat]

RDM being an enefeebling specialist has at most 3 or 4 unique enfeebles.

Gravity II(Not unique really, just a more potent Gravity I, which again isn't that useful).
Paralyze II(More potent paralyze but hard to say since even when it lands, it hardly procs on hard mobs)
Slow II(Marginally better than Slow I, weaker than Elegy though)
Blind II(A few more -Accuracy than Blind I, useless since mobs have such high accuracy anyway. Other jobs get more potent Blind i.e BLU's Auroral Drape which is like 3x more potent than Blind II).

Notice how 3/4 of those enfeebles are Merit abilities. Why does RDM need level 75 merits to get an edge over White Mage or Black Mage for enfeebling abilities?Hypothetically, the equivalent would be if /WHM and /RDM gave Cure V and BLM, SCH, RDM, PLD, and any job that subs /RDM or /WHM had access to Cure V and WHM only had access to Cure VI via merit points. You see that WHM and BLM get a resoundingly large portion of Enfeebling spells whereas RDM gets a resoundingly small amount of healing and elemental skills. Whereas WHM/RDM or BLM/RDM can cast over 95% of RDM's enfeeble spells, RDM/WHM or RDM/BLM still doesnt get Cure V or Tier 5 Nukes. Our merit spells are very slightly stronger than the spells we learn at level 5, 6 or level 12 and it takes maximum merits to make any of them useful. Assuming a RDM never used merit points, RDM would have no unique enfeebles except Gravity II. By the same token, an unmeritted WHM still has Protect V/Shell V, Cure VI, Curaga V, Sacrifice, Esuna. An unmeritted BLM is hardly affected since they naturally get Tier V nukes, and -aja spells which outclass their merit spells. RDM gets no enfeebling magic that outclass their merit spells and to date are the only class that is absolutely dependent on their merit spells to be unique at 75, even though paralyze II and slow II are not really a noticably potent increase in hard fights over a WHM tossing out a Slow I or Paralyze I.

Not to mention they also get blocked by WS additional effects that are weaker than the merited II effect. Ukko's Slow effect is weaker than Slow II, but can't be overwritten by it. Some WS effects are stronger than merited II effects on the same token though, such as paralysis proc rates on WS with add effect para. I have a hard time understanding why certain spells that were given to rdm to make it unique ended up passed on to whm or blm as well through the climb to 99 (primarily addle) being as rdm's primary role (per skill caps) is to enfeeble.

One thing that would go a very far way to increasing rdm's unique standing again is to abolish the need to merit the tier II line and give it to rdm naturally while giving rdm a totally new type of tier II merits that further enhance these effects or gives them secondary effects IE Slow II add effect could be lowered resistance to earth or wind elemental damage. I've always felt that the tier II merits of rdm were redundant being as the job should have gotten the tier II/III line naturally in the first place given their primary roles as the "enfeeble king."

[Septimus]

RDM being an enefeebling specialist has at most 3 or 4 unique enfeebles.

Gravity II(Not unique really, just a more potent Gravity I, which again isn't that useful).
Paralyze II(More potent paralyze but hard to say since even when it lands, it hardly procs on hard mobs)
Slow II(Marginally better than Slow I, weaker than Elegy though)
Blind II(A few more -Accuracy than Blind I, useless since mobs have such high accuracy anyway. Other jobs get more potent Blind i.e BLU's Auroral Drape which is like 3x more potent than Blind II).

Notice how 3/4 of those enfeebles are Merit abilities. Why does RDM need level 75 merits to get an edge over White Mage or Black Mage for enfeebling abilities?Hypothetically, the equivalent would be if /WHM and /RDM gave Cure V and BLM, SCH, RDM, PLD, and any job that subs /RDM or /WHM had access to Cure V and WHM only had access to Cure VI via merit points. You see that WHM and BLM get a resoundingly large portion of Enfeebling spells whereas RDM gets a resoundingly small amount of healing and elemental skills. Whereas WHM/RDM or BLM/RDM can cast over 95% of RDM's enfeeble spells, RDM/WHM or RDM/BLM still doesnt get Cure V or Tier 5 Nukes. Our merit spells are very slightly stronger than the spells we learn at level 5, 6 or level 12 and it takes maximum merits to make any of them useful. Assuming a RDM never used merit points, RDM would have no unique enfeebles except Gravity II. By the same token, an unmeritted WHM still has Protect V/Shell V, Cure VI, Curaga V, Sacrifice, Esuna. An unmeritted BLM is hardly affected since they naturally get Tier V nukes, and -aja spells which outclass their merit spells. RDM gets no enfeebling magic that outclass their merit spells and to date are the only class that is absolutely dependent on their merit spells to be unique at 75, even though paralyze II and slow II are not really a noticably potent increase in hard fights over a WHM tossing out a Slow I or Paralyze I.

To add to this, even if they make it so that only Red Mages can do the Immunohack thing, it isn't going to help the job anyway. Over the last several years the player base has learned that you actually don't need to enfeeble mobs to win fights- even if another mage absolutely can't land enfeebles, there is no reason to take a RDM to enfeeble a mob when you can take a BLM or DD to kill it faster.

It bears repeating, Red Mages need new, unique, and useful enfeebles that actually land on monsters. And are useful, because that point is very important. There is no reason to give anyone a spell if they if the effect is unnoticeable or if it never lands. (Of course, we know that the effects will be devastating when mobs use them on players, because when a mob can cripple or instantly murder a player, that's good game design; if a player can land a paralyze that won't proc at all on an NM that is 24 levels lower than the player, that is hideously unbalanced and is a travesty of justice that must be stopped.) It seems like every mob on the planet has an Amnesia move, it wouldn't be too unfair if Red Mage had a spell that at least slowed down how quickly a mob can gain TP to shoot out their 90 yalm radius instant death moves.

[Creelo]

This isn't going to help Rdm's place in end-game. :/

[Byrth]

What if... a bunch of BRDs and SMNs cast Paralyze to trigger Immunobreak and then a RDM follows up with a full potency Paralyze II?




I know, I know! Maybe the monster would lose one or two auto-attack rounds over the course of the 20 seconds the Paralysis effect lasts!!!!

[saevel]

I know, I know! Maybe the monster would lose one or two auto-attack rounds over the course of the 20 seconds the Paralysis effect lasts!!!!

Oh if only we were so lucky. NMs with those ridiculous resistances also seem to have some sort of potency reduction, even if you ES land a paralyze II in full MND gear, your lucky to see it proc once for it's entire duration. And it'll never proc on a spell, nope para can't be allowed to stop that Meteor, Firaga IV or other high damage spell.

[Guppie]

So anyway, let's come up with some ideas for new enfeebles could possibly be added, that behave differently from existing ones.


For instance, how about an enfeeble that blocks an enemy's ability to restore HP (along the lines of the Zombie status effect)? If this is considered too strong, then perhaps a spell that blocks an enemy's ability to merely absorb HP might work. Very situational, but this is true of many spells in existence.
Or perhaps an enfeeble that works like the opposite of subtle blow -- Enemy hits grant bonus TP to the player struck.
Or how about a black magic enfeeble that works like a reverse-enspell? Physical attacks that strike an enfeebled mob deal extra elemental damage -- but the spell sticks on the mob, not the weapon (thus allowing alliance members and pets to benefit from dealing enspell-like damage).

[saevel]

A line of stat-down enfeebles similar to but significantly more potent then what BLMs get.

INT/STR/DEX-down
Defense Down
Evasion Down
Attack Down
Accuracy Down
Magic Attack Down
Magic Defense Down
Magic Evasion Down
Magic Accuracy Down

Inhibit TP (technical term for Store TP Down)
Plague (more then something stupid like 5tp/tick)

Line of "Break" spells that reduce a targeted resistance
Fire Break (Fire Resistance Down)
Ice Break (Ice Resistance Down)
ect..

And finally a form of DT down enfeeble that lowers a monsters damage reductions (though not under zero). This would be similar to WAR's Tomahawk effect.

That would be a good start. It would allow RDM to become a strategic tool for battles, enhancing the zergers or the PLD's holding monsters, ect..

Defense Down, Evasion Down an Attack Down refer to those actual status ailments not to Bio / Dia / Gravity which are separate ailments that just happen to have additional effects. The effect downs would overwrite each other (Defense Down / Evasion Down / Accuracy Down), the stat downs would do the same (Int Down / Str Down) as would the break spells. This allows much leeway to picking the best combo for any particular situation while allowing RDM to work with jobs already present.

I've been asking for these for a long time now, maybe SE will listen. I won't get my hopes up.

[Kitkat]

A line of stat-down enfeebles similar to but significantly more potent then what BLMs get.

INT/STR/DEX-down
Defense Down
Evasion Down
Attack Down
Accuracy Down
Magic Attack Down
Magic Defense Down
Magic Evasion Down
Magic Accuracy Down

Inhibit TP (technical term for Store TP Down)
Plague (more then something stupid like 5tp/tick)

Line of "Break" spells that reduce a targeted resistance
Fire Break (Fire Resistance Down)
Ice Break (Ice Resistance Down)
ect..

And finally a form of DT down enfeeble that lowers a monsters damage reductions (though not under zero). This would be similar to WAR's Tomahawk effect.

That would be a good start. It would allow RDM to become a strategic tool for battles, enhancing the zergers or the PLD's holding monsters, ect..

Defense Down, Evasion Down an Attack Down refer to those actual status ailments not to Bio / Dia / Gravity which are separate ailments that just happen to have additional effects. The effect downs would overwrite each other (Defense Down / Evasion Down / Accuracy Down), the stat downs would do the same (Int Down / Str Down) as would the break spells. This allows much leeway to picking the best combo for any particular situation while allowing RDM to work with jobs already present.

I've been asking for these for a long time now, maybe SE will listen. I won't get my hopes up.

SE Rep response: We are giving those to geo, silly rdm.

Don't lie, you know as soon as you finished reading his post you thought that. Just further showing how rdm will never return to the position it was at prior. The only way this would work out is if the resist-break system was tunneled into a passive trait that only rdm gets at 50+ in up to 3 tiers worth of potency. Congratulations SE on making another blanket attempt to fix something that needs to be more narrow in the form of a fine tuning.

[Quetzacoatl]

Wow, I'm actually surprised they took the enfeebling skill requirement into consideration...but I think we need to realize a couple of things right now:

1. We need to take this as a building block to expand upon RDM's enfeebling effectiveness in the future if RDM does get new and unique spells. Let's not put RDM in the coffin just yet. Keep throwing out enfeebling ideas that will make the job useful for debuffing until they're considered, but let's make sure SE doesn't drizzle them with high resistance rates either.

Also, why shouldn't RDM need Enfeebling merits to get ahead in the immunobreak system? I have them merited even though I don't play RDM much anymore, because it tends to save my ass oftentimes in out-of-control situations on other jobs like my DRK. I mean, sure in a zerg or a balanced party that guarantees no screw-ups won't need RDM enfeebling, but in the case that some oh-s#*% moment happens, it's nice to have it as a trick up your sleeve, especially one that RDM can break through resistances with.

2. GEO Enfeebling from Luopan will stack with White/Black Magic Enfeebling. inb4peoplesayit'llbeirrelevant

[tyrantsyn]

2. GEO Enfeebling from Luopan will stack with White/Black Magic Enfeebling. inb4peoplesayit'llbeirrelevant

Some PPL have been blind to that fact for some reason ^^

But yea, the fix is sounding good. Just new some new unique enfeeble's to top it off.

[Kitkat]

What I said had nothing to do with it not stacking with white/black enfeebles. Just that most of saveal's suggestions are already going to be in geo's bag of tricks from what was announced about the job during vanafest. Meaning they wouldn't be giving it to rdm since it would then compromise the uniqueness of geo before it was even introduced to the game. There is still a vast choice of spells that the MMO hasn't touched on that are in other FF titles, but whether or not SE can add these in a "balanced" way is another thing entirely.

When I talk about rdm's place in a group again I mean being able to not just land spells, but have a much higher potency behind them than other jobs could since blm or whm had to wear more +skill gear over +int/mnd gear to land because of significantly lower skill rating in enfeebling. Rdm now has a great deal of gear that adds to accuracy and potency on the same pieces, but the spells are nigh useless to cast due to immunities or the build of the mob that you would want to cast them on. By this I mean high amount of stp/regain to spam tp moves.

We also have pieces that augment composure to increase duration of buffs, but a good deal of our newer desirable buffs are self target only and un-accessionable (meaning we are the prime benefactors of enhanced composure duration outside of a small pool of buffs every other job can give). This leaves me confused and unsure what direction SE has for Rdm, but currently with how game plays out it isn't looking like a highly desirable job within current endgame without some re-tinkering of the rdm spell list, possible spell additions and merit adjustments that would make the spells more worth while to use. As a person who enjoyed rdm for what it was, that is a bit frustrating....more so when you see a blanket fix to the problem that.....doesn't really fix the problem at all.

[ManaKing]

Anyone find it funny that this system doesn't support Impact at all? Pretty much the best stat debuff in the game, completely unaffected by enfeebling magic.

[Tptn937]

So what was the point of the enfeebling magic update if we still can't land sleep, break, silence, gravity on NMs?

[Raksha]

So what was the point of the enfeebling magic update if we still can't land sleep, break, silence, gravity on NMs?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handwaving

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Some PPL have been blind to that fact for some reason ^^

But yea, the fix is sounding good. Just new some new unique enfeeble's to top it off.

Which is why they'll balance it by not giving RDM anymore unique enfeebles.

The fact of the matter is, Geo will get unique, un-resisted enfeebles, that while yes will stack no other job will get similar ones for them to stack.

[Kristal]

Also, one of the aims is to make Red Mage’s enfeebling spells much more useful, and as a result of exploring this we decided to make it so that the immunobreak system is only for enfeebling magic skill.

1. Is Immunobreak available to jobs without Enfeebling Magic Skill that sub RDM?
2. Does actual enfeebling magic skill play a role in the amount of immunobreak gained for resisting?
3. Will RDM get (unique) traits to boost immunobreak chance/amount?

[Quetzacoatl]

Okay, when I said make it enfeebling-magic based, I didn't mean the immunobreak should easily work in the low 400's, so that every fucking jack and jill mage job could fucking debuff anything worth a damn. This was to help Red Mages, remember?

There is seriously no going back to to playing Red Mage for endgame purposes if SE doesn't put any unique, useful and worthwhile spells out soon, as well as make any NMs worth using enfeebling on. OR! SE could make it tougher to immunobreak so RDMs have an incentive to have the end-all be all top number debuffing skill required to immunobreak.

I swear to god, I'm just tempted to learn how to program SE's new mechanics myself and help them get the right idea across. >.>

[sweetidealism]

Please let the amount of resistance lowered through Immunobreak be dependent on high enfeebling magic skill and, to a lesser extent, INT/MND, and give Red Mage a Job Trait that increases their likelihood of causing an Immunobreak.

Furthermore, I'd like to see one or two things added to Saboteur; perhaps "If the target has suffered an Immunobreak, the magic accuracy of the next enfeebling magic spell cast will be increased drastically," and/or "If the next enfeebling magic spell is resisted, the target will suffer a severe Immunobreak."

These changes would help Red Mage truly take advantage of Immunobreak more than any other job.

[Okipuit]

Greetings!

We received some feedback that enfeebling effects such as slow and paralyze have seemingly been ineffective for certain boss monsters whose normal attacks are AoE attacks. In order to bring out the full potential of enfeebling magic effects we would like to address this phenomenon. To start with we will be making adjustments during next week’s version update so that paralyze and killer effects are elicited.

In regards to slow, we are still looking into this and need a bit more time due to the fact that the processes involving it are more complex.

[Xilk]

so it sounds like what you're saying is that paralyze and killer effects will be able to prevent WS like tp moves from being executed... ?

[Tamarsamar]

So long as it applies ONLY to said monsters "whose normal attacks are AoE attacks," awesome! Keep up the good work!

[Ophannus]

Inb4 they accidentally make this affect player WS too and then don't fix it for 2 years.

[saevel]

Their talking about how Ironclads and other monsters don't have regular attack rounds and instead their "aoe regular attacks" are job abilities. Previously Paralyze / Slow would do jack sh!t to those monsters, now Paralyze can proc on those aoe regular attacks though they don't have a mechanism to implement slow.

[Mirage]

Not yet, anyway. Looks to me like they're trying to find a way to make it work.

I am pleased by this change, but I bet red mages and ninjas are even more pleased.

[Sarick]

Just want to give some recent personal feedback I have regarding this issue.

~~ Yada yada yadda ~~

When I have the same resist rate naked as I do with full debuffing gear and a Gjallarhorn... I think there's a problem.

I agree with you.

If it has a weakness trigger these should always be 100% bonus to accuracy. This garbage where something has a weakness but is 95% resistant it's oxymoron by design.

[SpankWustler]

This change makes me happy!


We received some feedback that enfeebling effects such as slow and paralyze have seemingly been ineffective for certain boss monsters whose normal attacks are AoE attacks. In order to bring out the full potential of enfeebling magic effects we would like to address this phenomenon. To start with we will be making adjustments during next week’s version update so that paralyze and killer effects are elicited.

That said, I'm going to be a curmudgeon and analyze the wording here. CURMUDGEONATION GO!

The Development Bros had to "receive feedback" that something actually did not work, straight up never-ever works, to conclude that thing "seemingly" does not work. When this thing that never works does not work, the occurrence is a "phenomenon".

Can I hire whoever wrote the original statement of this to represent me if I'm ever arrested for DUI? I don't care that he doesn't have a law degree and probably doesn't even speak English. I have faith that I'll enter the court room a drunk driver who killed two children and one tree, and somehow leave as mayor of the town in which I am tried.

[ManaKing]

Inb4 they accidentally make this affect player WS too and then don't fix it for 2 years.

It already does. Difference between you and an NM is that you can just mash your WS macro until it goes off, where as they might take a couple of seconds to decide to do it again. In the case of JAs, you put your JA on recast. For them....not really sure but I don't think they have actual recasts for JA-like moves or not ones that have particularly long durations.

[saevel]

It already does. Difference between you and an NM is that you can just mash your WS macro until it goes off, where as they might take a couple of seconds to decide to do it again. In the case of JAs, you put your JA on recast. For them....not really sure but I don't think they have actual recasts for JA-like moves or not ones that have particularly long durations.

No... Just no

Paralyze can not effect Weapon Skills. It effects spells, job abilities and auto-attack rounds. For monsters it effects spells and auto-attack rounds, the monster system at 50 didn't have any mobs using "Job Abilities" so it was never coded in. Later with abyssea and iron clad type monsters SE decided to use the JA mechanic to give monsters area of effect and other "different" forms of auto-attack.

[hiko]

Greetings!

We received some feedback that enfeebling effects such as slow and paralyze have seemingly been ineffective for certain boss monsters whose normal attacks are AoE attacks. In order to bring out the full potential of enfeebling magic effects we would like to address this phenomenon. To start with we will be making adjustments during next week’s version update so that paralyze and killer effects are elicited.

In regards to slow, we are still looking into this and need a bit more time due to the fact that the processes involving it are more complex.

=>
The all Worlds maintenance, which was scheduled to occur on Dec. 10, 2012 from 17:00 to 19:00 (GMT), has been postponed until further notice due to the discovery of a critical bug. We will provide an update once the new maintenance time is confirmed.

We apologise for any inconvenience this may cause and thank you for your patience.